Jess Tandler: West Point, Infantry Leadership & Life After Service

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Security Out Podcast.
Let's go the only podcastthat's purpose-built from the
ground up to support you Notjust you, but the wider audience
, everybody.
Authentic, impactful andinsightful conversations that
serve a purpose to help you.
And the quality has gone up.
It's decent and it's hosted byme, danny Caballero.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Jess Tandler Welcome Security Out podcast.
How are you doing?

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Hey, denny, thanks for having me.
I'm doing great.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Absolutely.
I love my mission of being ableto reach out and find amazing
entrepreneurs, but when I findthem within the veteran space
and specifically within the softspace, I get super excited.
So when I found out about yourcompany and what you're doing, I
immediately wanted to have youon.

(00:53):
So today I don't want to justdive in your business endeavors,
I want to find out how you gotinvolved in that world.
But you're also a veteran and Iwant to know how and why you
got involved with serving ournation.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
Yeah, so back in way up, I'm an army brat, so both of
my parents were in the army, inthe GWAT, and they were
actually divorced.
They divorced when I was reallyyoung and remained friends, but
because they were divorced,they were the army was allowed
to deploy them at the same time.
So and they were MPs, so theywere doing like the 15 month

(01:31):
rotations to Iraq and I remember.
Yeah, and one year, like thosedeployments overlapped and so it
was like kind of a choice, like, like you can go live with your
grandma.
There's this, uh, boardingschool down in florida that
started accepting girls.
Like you can go there.
And I was like, oh, boardingschool all day, you know,

(01:52):
because like as much as livingin a retirement neighborhood
sounded like a great time, youknow, it was just like I felt
like we were all leaving.
It wasn't like my parents wereleaving and then I was getting
left behind.
So I set out on my ownadventure.
It's kind of what it felt like.
So that was a military boardingschool.
It was like an Air Force-esquekind of vibe.

(02:15):
And so during my time there, Iwas like, oh, I'm never joining
the military, like I've seenwhat this has done to my family.
I'm stuck here in this militaryboarding school by myself, even
though it was my choice, youknow, then you do it and then
get mad.
So I was like, yeah, this isprobably not for me.
Um, and so, you know, fastforward, I graduate high school

(02:39):
and go to a super hippie collegein California.
Um, hippie college inCalifornia, um, uc Santa Cruz,
the mascot like a banana slug,yeah, so I was out there and I
just didn't fit in like at all,and I loved everybody there.
I loved, you know, the friendsthat I did have, but it was just

(02:59):
like the worldview was just sodifferent.
Like my family's got a ton ofpeople in the military.
They were constantly deployingUm, and the culture at UC Santa
Cruz was great in its own reason, um, but I just couldn't get
there from where I was and theywere never going to get to where
I was at, where they were, andI was like you know what, like I

(03:19):
don't fit in here.
What's going on here is great,um, and maybe I need to look at.
You know, is there something Ican do to make sure that these
people never have to changetheir worldview?
You know, like they're livingin this bubble of peace and
their problems are theirproblems and like let's, that's

(03:40):
awesome.
You know, like there's a lot ofstuff that's like they don't
have to worry about and on topof that, like college super
expensive.
You know there's a lot of stuffthat's like they don't have to
worry about, um, and on top ofthat, like college super
expensive.
You know, like, even with ohyeah my parents, like disabled,
veteran status and the educationbenefits that brought me, it
was still crazy expensive.
So I was like this is not, likeI can't make this investment

(04:00):
when I don't feel confidentabout like where I'm going.
So I was you know.
What I could do to put all ofthis on pause so I can figure my
shit out was drop out and jointhe military.
So I enlisted in 2013 as apostuling list and I chose that

(04:21):
job, like I needed the studentloaner payment.
So like that, narrowed down thejobs I was choosing from and
just from like seeing you knowfrom the outsider's perspective,
but still in a military family,like how the war was playing
out.
And then I like history.
I like military history.
So in my mind, like when theworld's in trouble, or like

(04:43):
particularly when America's introuble, the entire weight of
everything we've built is thrownbehind the infantrymen, like at
the end of the day.
And I was like at that time, Ican't be that guy because they
didn't allow women.
So I was like, well, what can Ido that I feel like best
supports that guy and posh twolinguists.
Like made a ton, ton of sensejust because, like in

(05:05):
Afghanistan, culturally, likeyou can't jump out of a truck
I'm sure you know and just talkto whoever you want over there.
So I was like, well, if I canbe that type of an asset, then
that's what I'm going to do.
And so I chose to do that.
While I was in language schoolthey started talking about, like
you know, seeing if women coulddo like a pre-ranger program

(05:27):
and piloting this and pilotingthat, and so like kind of those
winds of change were starting toblow.
And upon, like graduation, westPoint, like scrubs, all the ERBs
of the soldiers that go throughDLI, typically because they're
a good fit, right, they'recoming out of the academic

(05:48):
environment.
You know some of them havecollege, they've taken SAT,
whatever.
So I popped on that and theywere like, hey, do you want to
apply to go to West Point?
And I was like, huh, like Icould put my career in an
incubator while the army figuresthis stuff out and maybe get
closer to the job that I want todo and I can finish my degree.
So it sounds like greatopportunity.
So I took it.

(06:10):
Like you know, I at first Ithought like my parents were
behind it, because my dad waslike a battalion sergeant major
at the time, which to me seemedlike a huge deal.
You know, I was like I calledhim and I was like they're
asking me to go to West Point.
Like, like, did you callsomebody?
Like what is going on?
And then, like they're like youhave a day to make this
decision.
Because I was on orders, like Iwas leaving, and, uh, I was

(06:32):
like they told me I have a dayto decide and my dad's like
that's, there's no way.
That's what's going on.
Like number one, I didn't callanybody there.
You're probablymisunderstanding what's going on
.
So, like, like, I'm, like Dad,I need you to help me make this
decision.
And he didn't believe what washappening.
So I was like, oh well, you know, I guess I'll do it.
And so, yeah, so I, you know,go to West Point and my freshman

(06:57):
year, that's when those firsttwo girls graduated ranger
school and then that Novemberthey opened up the combat arms
branches to women.
So you know, fast forward threeyears or whatever where it's
time for me to decide on mybranch.
Super easy choice.
Like I ranked like infantrynumber one and then every single

(07:19):
other branch with a branchdetail infantry after that, and
like at the bottom was likearmor aviation, like the stuff
where you couldn't branch detailinfantry.
After that, and like at thebottom was like armor aviation,
like the stuff where youcouldn't branch detail infantry.
Because, like, I knew exactlywhat I wanted to do.
Um, because in my mind, likeagain, you know, I I don't think
like the regular infantrymenkind of get the attention that
they deserve.

(07:39):
Um, because you can't holdterrain with bombs, like, and
you can't mass produce soft.
There's just so many thingsthat on a large scale.
you need those guys, and sothat's what it's all about.
When America's truly in trouble, Absolutely.
I wanted to get as close tothat guy as I could.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, we forget and people don't understand this and
it gets muddled Soft, getshighlighted so much.
But it's a supporting effort.
It is not the main effort.
You're never going to the, theidea, and it's funny, the, the g
watt, completely removed focusof what special forces?

(08:22):
Which is, when you say specialforces, that only that's, that's
just green ber, we're irregular, we're the unconventional
forces guys.
Our jobs traditionally shouldbe by with and through with a
partner force in support oflarge scale operations.
The meat and potatoes of combatit's always going to be your

(08:43):
infantry, it's always going tobe shout out to the alma mater,
the schoolhouse that made me2504.
It's your paratroopers, it'syour ground force dudes.
And we don't talk about what ittakes to become an infantryman,
what it takes to really get inthere, because, let me tell you,
I'm a proud graduate ofinfantry school, I'm a proud
graduate of the 82nd.
Uh, it's a lot of work,especially for our young

(09:07):
officers, because, I hate totell you, this west point does
not prepare you for walking into that company area?

Speaker 3 (09:16):
absolutely not.
You know what I mean.
Like no chance.
Yeah, that was uh, it was a andand the biggest transition, like
talking about young officers,like hitting the line.
I first noticed it in airborneschool, cause like we think you
take a West pointer, it's peerleadership all the way through
West point and then peerleadership all the way through

(09:38):
Ibolek, and then obviously peerleadership, like hugely
important to range school, andyou don't have the rank on.
You don't have none of thatstuff on in ranger school and
but at airborne school you don'thave the rank on.
You don't have none of thatstuff on in ranger school and uh
, but at airborne school you dohave the rank on.
So for me I was like standingin a formation feeling like I
was just another private right,but like there's privates in
that formation that look at youas an officer, like you might be

(10:00):
that first officer that they'veever been really close with um,
and so you have to like flip aswitch and conduct yourself
accordingly really really fast,whereas like you haven't really
had to do that in the past, youknow.
So like that was a.
Luckily I got to work out thekinks at airborne school.
I definitely don't think Iperfected it by the time I
showed up to one fury.

(10:21):
But cause that was my firstbattalion I was in, I showed up
to one fury, but cause that wasmy first battalion I was in Um.
But yeah, that like you don'tget prepared for that at all
because your whole pipeline ispure leadership.
And it's good that it's thatway, cause that's the hardest,
that's the hardest way to leadUm.
But like realizing that thoseyoung eyes are on you and like

(10:42):
you might be the first officerthey run into and that kid might
be a star major one day.
And if you like, act like ajackass, you know, then you
create a star major.
That doesn't like lieutenant,that's just not good for anybody
.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
That's how they get, that's how they exactly, how
they're created.
That's exactly what happens.
I've seen it happen in realtime in our dens Core memory
created.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
Yeah, it happen in real time in our dens core
memory created.
Yeah, yeah, it's a canon eventin life.
Yeah, one of those guys, butyeah, so, um, but yeah, the, the
road to the 82nd wasn't overlychallenging, like I was with my
buddies and like all that stuff.
Um, I actually got fired frommy first platoon.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yeah, yeah, over, uh, over memes no yeah, so that's,
that's a, that's a whole world.
I did not understand yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:38):
So it was like back, this is like 2019, 2020, like
the military meme community oninstagram was like building, but
it wasn't really anything thatserious yet.
Um, and so my buddy started ameme page called this is not
pre-ranger, because that wasjust like in iBolic.
They would be like this is notpre-ranger, like we're teaching

(11:58):
you to be an infantry officer,we're not preparing you for
range school, and like they hadto say that because in my
opinion, ibolic is 100%pre-ranger, like you know.
So we were just like cookingthe entire like poi and
everything that was going on inthat school on that meme page
and like we would just send themto my buddy and like he would
post them.
And I just did my like beyonceand destiny's child move and I

(12:19):
was like I think I have a uniquetake here, so I'm gonna start
my own meme page and I.
I named it, call her, sir.
A spoof on the call her daddypodcast.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:31):
Because, like the eye bullet cadre, there was like
five girls in the class at thetime.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Holy shit, I remember your meme page no.
Yeah.
Yeah, I remember it.
Yeah, quick segue I was inAfghanistan during that time
period and what we would do iswe would make actual paper memes
after each mission, like wewould do our AARs and whatever
crazy shit happened.
We would turn it into a meme.

(12:56):
It would go up on the wall withlike the date, time, group of
the mission.
It would be like, yes, yes,this, this is like what
represents our fine deployment,like this mission, we made a
mission meme every single time.
But I remember going throughand I not clearly remember your
page.
Yeah, holy shit.

Speaker 3 (13:15):
Yeah, my friend and I , because there's like five
girls and I Bullock at the time.
And for people who are notfamiliar with, like the infantry
pipeline, I Bullock is theinfantry basic officer leader
course Um, every branch has oneand that one's ours and there
was like five of us in there andat the time that was like a
very large number.
Like this was the most womenthat had been in I Bullock at

(13:36):
one time like ever.
And um, the cadre would likecause the NCO cadre at I Bullock
still call you like sir, ma'am,whatever, and I think that's a
good thing because you kind oflike get used to that and it
helps you conduct yourselfaccordingly, because you're not
a college kid anymore, you know,I mean, and but they would,

(13:58):
they would put their little spinon it.
It would be like a, what thefuck are you doing, sir?
You know like I'm letting youfeel bad that still happens in
sf yeah, exactly, they find away.
But but yeah, so they would callus like sir, on accident and at
the time, like we hadn't shavedour heads yet or nothing like
that, because we didn't need toand I bullocked, so like we

(14:19):
still had like long hair andit's like all right guy, like
come on, we've infantry's beenopen for a while.
Like I'm not a dude, you know,but so we, you know, came up
with the meme page title andlike the kind of what I was
getting at was like, um, as weintegrate, we can all laugh at
ourselves.
Like when it gets too stuffyand too prude and everyone's on

(14:41):
eggshells around each other,like like no one wants to work
in that environment.
But we can all.
We can all laugh at ourselves.
Like we can laugh at creepydudes in the cop just as hard as
we can laugh at, you know, asmall girl trying to hoist a
large man onto her back.
You know like, because both ofthose things are hilarious, and
like we can all laugh atourselves and just like, fucking

(15:02):
relax a little bit because likeintegration can can be really
tense, you know, and that's notlike the armies of people
business, and like you got tofigure out how to get people to
work together at the end of theday at the end of the day, that
the orders came down, you can't,you got to go with it, you got
to move with it.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Like things are happening, whether you like it,
whether you agree with it um,everybody has their own opinions
but at the end of the day, likeyou have to get over it,
continue to move along with themission yeah, and I think what
gets lost is like um, no one, no, no one told me how to be a
female infantry platoon leader.

Speaker 3 (15:40):
I just learned how to be a platoon leader, but like I
would be kidding myself if Isaid that like it was exactly
like being a dude, like it wasvery different than being a dude
, but no one was telling me howto do that.
On the flip side of the coin,nobody is telling my platoon
sergeant how to now have thefirst female platoon leader that

(16:02):
this battalion has had.
You know, for example, I don'tknow if I was the first one in
the battalion, but like that'sjust like an example, because a
lot of these NCOs that I workedwith had not been in that
position before either.
So no one's writing a manual totell young leaders how to carry
out policies that are comingfrom the Pentagon.
So like the very least we cando is like crack some jokes
about it.
You know what I mean and thatdidn't go over like great.

(16:31):
But I like I shut the meme pagedown after I left um benning
because I was like you gottagrow up.
Like no one wants a platoonleader who's like a meme lord
like maybe some people do, butlike I mean I was a private once
and you just want a leaderwithout baggage.
So it was just like get, getyour tab and get your airborne

(16:51):
wings and get up there and startlearning.
So I shut the main page down,kind of focused on that.
Um, but some investigation hadstarted before I left spending,
but I was never notified by likean IO or anything that I was
under investigation.
So when I showed up to mybattalion and I, you know, a
couple weeks later got put intoa platoon, I like had no idea

(17:14):
like anything was wrong.
Um, and yeah, like we were inthe field and I get told by my
commander like hey, we, hey, wegot to go see the BC and I'm
like that's not good.
Like you know, he's probablynot telling me, he's not calling
me out of the field to tell melike I'm doing a great job.
You know I'm sitting there likethinking of every wrong thing

(17:41):
I've ever done and I'm like dude, it could be anything.
You know like, I have no idea.
And then I come, I go in thereand he's like irate, immediately
, like screaming mad.
You know like, maybe if you sathim down he would tell you he
wasn't screaming.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
I felt like I was being screamed at Either way.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
either way, it was a scary situation for me.
I'm standing up like locked updude and I'm just like what am I
in here for?
And he's like, because he'sspeaking in vague terms about
like not being a professional wecan't have leaders like this in
our formation.
And I'm like dude, he's notgiving me anything here.
Man, Like what the fuck is it?
And then he starts talkingabout me.

(18:23):
Man, like what the fuck is it?
And then he starts talkingabout me and I was just like I
had to like hide the look ofrelief on my face because I'm
like, oh, it's me like this isnot a big deal.
You know, it was a big fuckingdeal because, like the cg of the
maneuver center of excellencehad sent this investigation over
to all american six and then itcame down and landed on my

(18:47):
baton commander's desk.
So like I was in it and just hadlike no idea, because, like in
the infantry, like I mean youremember the stuff that said in
the cough, you know.
And now everybody's got theselike signal group chats, like
there's some wild shit that likeflies around.
So I was like well, none of thememes I made were like that bad
, you know, and I was like thisis a bunch of infantrymen like

(19:07):
they're gonna clutch theirpearls, like they're like
southern baptist ladies over myover my memes.
Well, they were like pearls werebeing clutched.
They were very upset and uhyeah, so I got ripped out of
that platoon.
Um got a very strongly wordedgomar from all american sticks
like threatening to because Ididn't get a chance to rebut the
investigation.
Like the whole process was justreally weird because it was

(19:31):
happening between twoinstallations and like um, he
was talking about kicking me outof division and I'm like where
are they going to send me?
Like alaska, you know?
Like what the fuck is going on?
Dude, I can't be up there likeI ain't built for this shit dog
I was like dude, just kick meout.
Man like um.
So I I paid my tenants withlike nine months on staff, um,

(19:55):
not ideal, but I the only thingI could do was like continue to
perform.
Um, and some days I didn't wantto, like, some days I was mad,
like at this system, at what Iperceived to be some double
standard vibes going on.
You know, um, because again,like I had heard the jokes and
things that were being saidaround me that like probably

(20:18):
would have offended somebodyelse.
Didn't offend me, because Ithink it's exactly like I've
been in the infantry for areason because I think they're
super funny.
That was one of the big ones.
They're a joy to be around.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
It should have been a badge.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
You're truly one of us and the battalion had a meme
page at the time, but devilactual or whatever.
It was like a meme page of onetheory at the time.
And while I was being like,while all american six was
deciding on my gomar or whatever, the star major of the army at
the time addressed this wholememe thing and said on his

(20:55):
instagram like if you're aleader going after these meme
pages, you need to take a lookin the mirror because you're
focusing on the wrong thing.
And I'm just sitting there likehello, like he has spoken, you
know, but he does not speak tothe officer corps.
Barely, I got absolutely gassed, but I the dudes in that

(21:19):
battalion didn't do this to me,you know, like number one, it
was my own actions.
I made the means, I knew I wasputting myself at risk because,
like, conduct on becoming of anofficer is a loosey, goosey term
.
Yeah.
So, like I took the risk ofdoing some shit that could be
construed as unprofessional andgetting, like you know, torched
over it, and and then maybethere was some leaders above me

(21:43):
who saw an opportunity to getsomeone out of their formation
that they didn't want there, youknow, like I was gonna ask, I
was gonna never know, man,because like it is what it is,
you know.
But but the guys didn't do thatto me, the paratroopers didn't
do that to me.
So, even though I was on staffand a job that I really didn't
like working for a couple majorswho kind of think, took some

(22:04):
enjoyment and like twisting theknife a little bit, you know, um
, it was like a sled dogmentality, man.
Like you're hooked up, so justlike you got to keep going for
them, um, because they stilldeserve like the best staff work
that you have to offer, eventhough though it's not glamorous

(22:24):
, like it makes a realdifference in the training that
they're able to do.
So like I kept working hard, itgot noticed and once my GOMAR
was said and done, the samebattalion commander that wanted
to kick me out of his formationbasically said like whatever way
this investigation goes, likeI'll find somewhere else for you
to work.
Was like what he told me,whether you get in trouble or

(22:45):
not.
Like you're not gonna, you'renot gonna be in this formation.
And at the end of it he did.
He asked me to stay, um, andpart of me wanted to leave, like
bounce over to 2p or likeanother battalion in the brigade
.
But I was like you know what,like I busted my ass to prove
myself when I got here and thisentire battalion just saw me get

(23:07):
knocked down, you know.
And so how good would it be forthem to see me stand up and
like, continue to lead andbounce back from something and
like whatever dudes that I'mleading.
If I recommend you for anArticle 15 to the commander,
just know that I'm not doing itlightly, because I have been

(23:30):
there.
So like don't tell me I don'tknow what you're going through.
If you're in trouble and you'rein some hot water, like you
know, we're going to hold youaccountable.
We're going to do the rightthing by the formation but, like
on the other side, as a team,we'll get you through this, you
know, cause I had friends in thebattalion that did that for me.
So like um, so I chose to stayand ended up, you know, doing

(23:53):
another round of rifle platoonleaders, successful that time,
and then moved on to um, heavyweapons platoon, so the deco,
the deco platoon at the end.
So I'm I'm glad I stayed.
Um, it was a pretty hilariousthing to like get in trouble for
, but the memes come in handy,like the skills for like my
guerrilla marketing I do for myfor dandler sallow so it's like

(24:15):
I'm still putting those skillsto use, still making like trash
memes all the time.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
But well, jess, I want to.
I want to go back and and kindof reflect on this journey with
you.
One thing that we talk about onthe show is resilience and grit
, and we know you can't buildthat in the happy-go-lucky world
.
You have to go through someshit to build it.
You're not wanted, at leastculturally and in the eyes of

(24:43):
the vast majority.
You're entering a world thatnot a lot of the women are going
into.
You're choosing to walk in theresaying like I've dreamt of this
, I want to do this, and whetheryou agree with the laws and
regulations and the changes,like at the human level, you
have to respect that.
I've dreamt of this, I'veliterally wanted to do this.
Can you at least see that Ihave a passion for this?

(25:06):
The doors have been opened,whether you agree with it or not
, can you at least look at me asa human being that has a heart,
that has dreams and wants to dothis, when a whole bunch of
other men don't?
I want to be here.
And then you go through thischallenge of getting removed and
getting sent to like the worstfucking place on earth, and
that's any staff section,special operations or a

(25:27):
conventional fortune fuck staffyou get sent there how?
how did you keep the hope aliveand how do you keep yourself
moving forward?

Speaker 3 (25:38):
so I just had to remember, um, that I was the
same person the day before I gotin trouble as I was the day
after I got in trouble.
Like the Army's got itsregulations, it's got its rules.
You break them.
You owe something to theinstitution for that.
Like whatever, that does notchange who you are.

(26:00):
There's plenty of people who,like never actually get in
trouble in the Army.
That probably should you knowand they got to deal with that
on like their own personal level.
But, like I knew that I was thesame person with the same
passion, with the same focus andlike the same drive, and I
didn't know what was going tohappen.

(26:20):
Like I could have gotten kickedout of the army and at that
time I would have had to payWest Point back like 250k.
Like I could have gotten kickedout of the army and at that
time I would have had to payWest Point back like 250 K.
Like it could have ruined youknow what I mean Like you have
to serve that first contract andif you don't, you owe West
Point money.
So it's free college, like witha condition of you're doing
five years.
So, like it was, um, it wasscary, but like I had done a lot

(26:43):
to get there and I was notgoing to let like some
administrative processcompromise like my values, my
integrity and like my character.
And maybe some people thought Ihad shitty character because I
was sitting here like makingthese memes that were kind of
disloyal to the institution orwhatever, like opinions on my

(27:04):
character being what they were.
Like I was still the sameperson and so I was like, well,
I'm not.
Like my dad used to always tellme, like integrity is the only
thing no one can take away fromyou.
You can only give that away.
And it's not integrity in termsof like just just telling the
truth all the time or whatever,like that's part of it.

(27:24):
But like another part ofintegrity is just like the
fabric of who you are and likestanding as yourself in front of
whatever challenge or adversityis in front of you.
And so, yeah, you know I was ina bad situation but I was still
the same person.
So I just refused to compromisethat.
I changed my approach, like Ilearned from you know the

(27:46):
mistake, if you want to call it,of running that meme page,
breaking a rule and getting introuble, but where it came from
was a good place and I wastrying to do a good thing, so I
was like I'm going to continueto.
That person is a good person.
We just got to find a differentway to channel it that I don't
get in trouble and I cancontinue to lead Cause that was

(28:06):
the biggest bummer was like Iwas leading dudes and and then
like I wasn't and like thatsucked you know, because I
really enjoyed leadership andmentorship, like I had a blast
doing that.
Um, so, yeah, it was just likewhatever you got to do to like
get back to that and it's's likewhen you're in it every day,
like I didn't want to wake upand be just like angry and mad

(28:27):
and dejected and whatever likeyou.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Just you got to get up and keep going like and
that's the only I felt, like theonly option I really had, you
know hell yeah, did you at leasthave a, a support group or
somebody within there thatbelieved in you or found like
you had, like you're still, likeyou know you go to you.
Go to airborne school.
You find somebody you canfucking laugh with and fucking

(28:52):
make jokes with.
Go to ranger school.
You go to any selection process.
You'll find people that you canlean on.
Like it's not, it's notuncommon to find your, your I
hate the term, it's fuckingstupid battle buddy yeah just
your friend.
Were you able to find peers thatyou could lean on during this
time?

Speaker 3 (29:09):
yeah, I did.
Um, it was a little weird atfirst because like there were
people in the battalion, likeother lieutenants, who I had
gone to west point airborneranger school, eyeballs, like we
had been together for like fiveyears, you know.
So you think you're friends.
Um, go ahead and get in troubleand see, you know who's really
your friend.
Because, like, everybody wantsto be the scout platoon leader,

(29:30):
the mortar platoon leader,everybody wants, or a bunch of
people wanted, to go to rangerregiment, right, you don't get
those things if you piss the bcoff, and one way to piss the bc
off is to hang out with theLieutenant who's in the dog
house.
So I uh realized I didn't havethat many friends, uh, real
friends, in the battalion whoare going to be there with me

(29:50):
like through thick and thin, andyou don't expect anybody to um,
feel sorry for you and and hangout with you, even if it's at
their own expense.
But when you find people thatdo, like those are the homies
you know.
So I, you know, had a friend umhis name's Kizzy.
He was.
He actually got in trouble.
He was like a year group or twoahead of me.

(30:10):
He got in trouble and he hadbounced back and he was.
He had actually movedbattalions as part of his you
know road to redemption, um, andhe, uh, part of his you know
road to redemption um, and he,uh, he was there for me in a way
that, like I don't know, it'sjust like an indescribable like
did not have to do that, youknow what I mean.
Like helped me write my gomarrebuttal, um, made sure I wasn't

(30:33):
like depressed you know likemade me laugh.
Like all this stuff like stillchecks up on me and that's
really all you need Likesomebody to text when, like
you're, you're having a bad dayand a bad situation and somebody
does something to make it worseand you just want to vent like
having that friend that's there.
And then we ended up, you know,cause we were both platoon

(30:55):
leaders in Bico I got pulled outof Bico and then he ended up
going to Do and then I ended upgoing to deco, so like we kind
of stayed together, which wasgreat because, like I was really
sad when he had to leave to goto like triple c, you know.
But, um, yeah, like having thatlike key person.
It doesn't have to be a ton ofpeople.
You know, my, my husband and Iwere dating at the time and like

(31:17):
, um, it's really weird likepersonal note of like coming to
brag as like a bald female withlike peach fuzz.
It's like you go out on thetown on a Friday night to have
fun and whether you're going tolike Southern Pines or wherever,
and you see a bald femalewalking into the bar.

(31:39):
You're wondering, like did shego to ranger school?
Like just like automatically,and so that's what like every
conversation became about.
And I was like really havingthis great relationship with my
boyfriend at the time and I waslike, does he only like me?
Because, like, he thinks I'mcool, you know?
And then, looking back now,like we have a kid and like, but

(32:05):
like, when I got in trouble,that was actually a really great
thing for, like my own securityand my relationship, cause I'm
like, oh, he's just here.
Like he's just here, he doesn't.
And when I say like I was thesame person the day before that,
I was, you know, the day afterI got in trouble, part of the
reason why I felt so stronglyabout that was because of how he
treated me, you know, and hissupport was just like completely

(32:28):
unending, because he didn't seeme as like an infantry, a
female infantry officer with aranger tab, like I was Jess,
like I was his girlfriend, youknow, so, like, so you know my,
my friends at work, my boyfriendwas huge.
And and then my dad, you knowthe shadow governor, you know
the old retired star major thatyou can call and be like, hey, I

(32:51):
think this is bullshit.
And he's gonna tell you, like,if it's bullshit or not.
And, yeah, he, we talked on thephone every single day like
whether I was having a good dayor a bad day, like it was just
checking in and um, and I justmade it through like one step at
a time.
I started running like a lot.
You know, no headphones, justraw like just casually raw dog,

(33:15):
you know seven mile run justworking it out, like I wouldn't
even wear a watch, like I wouldjust go until I was fucking
tired and I would make my wayback to the car and, like you
know, and if that's what you gotto do, to like get through it
like that's what you got to doand you know, I probably had
some unhealthy coping mechanismsmixed in there too, but like I

(33:36):
didn't let it get out of control.
Like you know, I didn't findmyself like partying or drinking
, to like get away from anything.
Um, it was more just to likehead toward having fun, you know
, but yeah, which is good, likeif you're relying on, on
substances to to suppresssomething like yeah you should
hit the trail and like confrontit.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
You know so yeah, we, we do a lot of that in the 82nd
uh yeah, it's just, it's apopular thing among kids, oh
yeah yeah.
So yeah, if you're like a younghula, like it's so tempting to
just like drink your face offevery weekend, but like it's not
, it's not the way and they'llfigure it out, you know,
hopefully, but that's the onething that, like I always talk

(34:19):
about in the culture that needsto change and the GWAT didn't do
are starting to see that changebecause of, like the whole

(34:45):
health and wellness space insocial media.

Speaker 3 (34:48):
So like what's in your face.
Like not the glamorization ofum getting blackout, drunk at
the barracks and getting in afight every weekend.
Like it's andrew huberman inyour face.
It's like all these otherthings in your face, Like dudes
are, like do I need to get a redlight mask?

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Like you know, Whose cold tub is this in the barracks
?

Speaker 3 (35:08):
No, but yeah.
So I think, like we are like, um, my husband on on his team,
like they have noticed that,like, uh, they went TDY recently
and and he texted me and he waslike download the yuca app.
And I was like, all right, youknow, I downloaded it, I started
scanning stuff in the pantry, Istarted throwing stuff away,
you know, and like, what theywere doing on tdy was like every

(35:31):
time they would go getsomething to eat, it was like a
competition like who's likesnack hall could like get the
best yuca score, and that's whatthese dudes are doing like out
on cdy.
And so, um, yeah, I think we areseeing a culture of um, like
the whole wellness, not like canyou right face and run really

(35:52):
fast, like you know what I mean,but um, like are you healthier
as a person, like spiritually,mentally, whatever, and I think
the younger that dudes like getinto that as they face issues
going forward, uh, whateverinevitable conflict that some of
these guys are going to findthemselves in, like they're

(36:13):
going to have habits that theybuilt up as private.
It's just because the wholeculture around, like drinking
and substances and stuff likethat, I think, is really, really
starting to change, and it'sit's early on, like you're still
gonna see dudes at the bearsgetting crazy on the weekend,
but like yeah, I think that thetide is starting to turn and
they're at least thinking aboutum, about that stuff oh,

(36:33):
absolutely, I, I see it, I seethe hope.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
uh, and you're absolutely right, it's the.
Thankfully, alternative mediaand things like podcasts are
coming around and put it in yourface and the GWAT cock rock era
is fading and going away by theby the wayside.
It's just like it's not thatcool to be the disgruntled vet
and the broken guy.
It's like, dude, go do somemeditation, go talk to a

(36:59):
therapist I love hearing thosestories.

Speaker 3 (37:01):
Yeah, yeah, I absolutely love hearing those
stories because, like, and thedudes like they rely on, like
the previous generation havinglike beat their head against the
same wall.
It doesn't work, and so theyfind something else that works
for them.
Because, like, are we in like abig protracted conflict right
now where dudes are seeing abunch of combat, like no, but

(37:21):
guess what is still an epidemicin the military suicide.
So, like, we are losing kidsleft and right to suicides.
Car accidents still happen,motorcycle accidents, training
accidents like these stuff,these things like still happen
to these guys.
And you know, when you have acommander pull um, like when I
was in I, I did some time infive, seven, three as like their

(37:42):
air officer, the cab squadron,before it got like this band,
the whole um shift in the force.
But we had like a number ofsuicides in third brigade that
year and you know, our commanderwould call us out and we would
have a formation, we'd get in aschool circle and we discuss,
discuss it and he would alwayssay, like do not turn to alcohol

(38:05):
to fix it, like alcohol is notgoing to fix this to whatever
degree.
You knew this guy and whateveryou're feeling, just know, like
one thing that's definitely notgoing to work is alcohol.
So, like leaders are likegetting on that, like straight
away, and then it's beingreinforced through things like
what you guys are saying on yourpodcast of like this is not

(38:27):
going to work if you try and doit this way, cause we tried and
did it this way and like we losta lot of people doing that, you
know, um, and so, yeah, I think, like what you guys do and the
message that you're sendingthese young guys, they might not
be having the same careerexperiences that you guys are
having or that you guys had, um,but your message is ringing
true, like nonetheless, we cansee it, make a difference

(38:49):
they're better equipped.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
I think, and the thing that I always want people
to understand is don't dream ofafghanistan and iraq, the g what
era.
Like it looks sexy, like theconstant deployments, like we do
a really shitty job of lettingthe younger generation, a new
generation of service members,and understand that their fight

(39:10):
in their day of glory is isright here, right now, in the
present moment.
What you're, what you're doinglike.
Be grateful for what you'redoing, for your mission, for
your training.
It may not seem as sexy as youthink now, but you're going to
recall those times.
You're going to have those fondmemories of what you're doing.
Trust me, your fight may bearound the corner.

(39:31):
So be grateful for what you'redoing today, in this present
moment.
Don't dream of Afghanistan Placefucking sucks.
So did Iraq Zero out of fivestars.
Wherever you go next, whateveryou're going to face is going to
be insanely tough andchallenging.
Be prepared and focus on yourpresent moment, like be be happy
that you're experiencing a newculture, a new shift, a new era.

(39:51):
Um, your enemy is far greater,far more important to be
prepared and trained for thanwhat we faced hard.
I wholeheartedly believe that.
I think it it's the uh everyonce in a while when I talk to
somebody that's going or wantsto and trained for than what we
face.
I wholeheartedly believe that.
I think it's the every once ina while when I talk to somebody
that's going or wants to go toselection, it's like oh man, I
missed out.
You didn't miss out on anything, young man, you didn't miss out
on anything.
Your next great fight is aroundthe corner, could be.

(40:14):
I hope not.
I hope you have a great careerand you never have to go to
combat I understand that.
I understand the drive andpassion for it.
So just be prepared, just bewilling to have a great
adventure like that's.
That's the thing that's hard toconvey to somebody that's young
, that wants, uh, that eagerdeployment and that next
challenge, just enlist wait forit.

(40:34):
If it comes, it comes.

Speaker 3 (40:36):
Be prepared for it right yeah yeah, because like
nobody wants, like we don't wantyoung infantrymen or young
green berets who don't want tofight Right, like that's not
good, like we want them to besuper aggressive and really want
to go fight leader is how doyou keep those dudes motivated,

(41:02):
knowing that at least in yourshort time while you're there,
that's appointments not coming,like being in the 82nd and
you're like sitting on the wallon the immediate response force,
so you're always like ready foranything.
And like you know, we did likeget spun up for afghanistan and
then first brigade went and thenrussia was about to invade

(41:22):
ukraine.
So we go to Poland, you know so, like we did get to do some
stuff.
So like anybody listeningthat's thinking about um
enlisting, like do it and go tothe 82nd because like if you're
going to go anywhere, it's withthose guys, and then um, and
then if you want to be a GreenBeret, like Green Berets are
working all the time.
It might not be the work thatyou think it is, but like if you

(41:43):
read about what Green Beretsare actually supposed to do,
that is still very much going on, you know.
So like the work is out there.
But like how do you keep young,aggressive men motivated when
you know the deployment's notcoming?
And so I looked at every singleNCO and every single private as
somebody star major, so I'monly in your life.

(42:04):
We were on a crash course andI'm in your life for like 24
months max and then I'm out.
So, like, did I prepare somefuture kids star major, to be
the leader that they need, thatI do everything that I could to
prepare him?
And if the answer was yes, thatI do everything that I could to
prepare him.
And if the answer was yes whichI think it was I can get out of

(42:31):
the army after you know, like11 years total, but only five
years of being an infantryman Ican get out with no deployment
patch or whatever, and it's a.
It sucks.
You know, like I wish I had acooler story, but like I did my
job, like I did exactly what wasasked of me.
I trained my dudes hard, I grewas a leader and I helped
develop them.
And like, if you're a leaderthat's getting out and you're
wondering if you're, if you didenough, like, just take a look

(42:52):
through your DMS and your textmessages and look at all the
dudes that still text you when,when something happens in their
life and they text you.
They're excited, they're like,oh my gosh, like blah, blah,
blah, this happened, or I gotthis job or whatever, like that
is how you know that you did agood job.
You know, and I don't thinkthat like there's signs all over
the place that you did whatyour guys needed you to do, but

(43:14):
maybe we're not listening.
You know what I mean, and so itcan seem like you were just
like a breeze that blew pastsomebody, and for some people I
was a breeze.
I blew past them.
I didn't really make adifference in their life, like,
or they fucking hated me, like,cause there was that too.
Everybody's not going to likeyou, the dudes in my platoon
that I was like that's a gooddude, that's a good NCO, like.

(43:37):
If those dudes are stilltalking to you like you did fine
, like don't worry about it.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
You know, yeah, absolutely.
And I want to pause and let youknow, like you said, something
that I think a lot of ourveterans feel like, oh, I didn't
do anything special.
And I'm like pause and reflecton your journey.
If you, if you're about toretire or you're about to hang
it up, just give yourself likefive minutes of like reflection
on this amazing journey you'vebeen on.
And like, dude, you were alinguist.
Then you got a shot at going toWest Point, which I know we shit

(44:11):
on officers in West Point, butthat is an American institution,
american military leadershipinstitution.
That's like a very smallpercentage of people get to go
there.
You got to do that.
You went to ranger school asone of the first females to be
allowed to go to that school,the, the premier leadership
school, knock that out.

(44:31):
Then you get to go to the 82ndairborne division, a historic
division.
Like I'm not, like I I'm notjoking, I don't have.
I'm a first-generation American.
I don't anchor myself in thiscountry with thoughts and
imaginations of like, oh, whatdo it's like to have lineage?
I have lineage because I servedin that unit.
I can look back and be like,hey, I might not have

(44:53):
grandparents that served, but Iserved in a historic unit.

Speaker 3 (44:58):
You knock all that out.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
That is amazing, and you got to be an infantry leader
.
Not a lot of people get to dothat.
So when you look back on yourcareer, by no means ever tell
yourself that you didn't get todo anything great, because you
got to do some amazing shit.
It might not be highlighted insome fucking boner movie or some
influencer real recap, but yougot to do some amazing shit and

(45:24):
that, my friend, is something tobe extremely proud of.
You gotta give yourself back.

Speaker 3 (45:30):
I feel super fortunate, you know, and it
feels like, uh, I guess likegetting into some of the new
stuff, because it feels like apast life where I'm at now and I
only got out like.
I mean, my terminal leave endedtwo days ago, you know.
So I'm not like it's stillfresh.
It hasn't hit you, yeah yeah,like I went and opened up a
storage unit and they were like,are you active military?

(45:51):
And I was like, yeah, no shit.
First time ever you know I'venever been asked that out of the
military.
So but yeah, like um, I feelsuper fortunate.
But it feels like a past lifebecause, um, I mean, I kind of
knew like when I was in theheavy weapons platoon role I
would sit down for like thecounseling with my commander,

(46:14):
like after big training eventsevery quarter, like whatever.
And he, he was an in-your-faceleader, um, and he still is, and
so he would ask like verypersonal questions and he would
like make it uncomfortable, likeyou weren't just going to sit
down and be like, oh, good jobat gunnery, like see you later.
Like you were going to get intoit, um.
And so I just knew every timeI'm like, oh, here we go, and so

(46:36):
we start getting into, kind ofsome of my personal goals and
I'm like I think I want to starta family, but I have no idea
how to do that as an infantryofficer.
You know there was there's nopathway for officers.
I think it's easier because,like you can do a broadening
assignment where you go liketeach ROTC, you go to grad
school, you do whatever.
So like you can find time tostop who I really feel bad for,

(47:01):
and it's their choice.
Like these girls are fine, but,like the infantry NCOs, there
is no pathway to kind of pullthem out.
Put them on staff, let them,you know, be pregnant, have
their baby recover, put them inand then get them their KD and
get them back on timeline.
Like there's not, thatstructure doesn't exist and,
like I've seen it, cause maritalproblems, um with with female

(47:24):
infantrymen, like I've seen it,you know, and we can say like,
oh well, if your husband doesn'tsupport blah blah, blah, then
maybe you should, like we canmake comments on their marriage,
but like it's none of ourfucking business and like we
should be supporting, you know,uh, making more Americans you
know, so like yeahbut right now, like the army's
kind of still figuring that out,and a lot of these girls, like

(47:46):
it's not laid out because thesearen't the type of girls that
are going to ask for anything.
Um, despite like what we seeportrayed on like social media
and stuff like that, the girlson the line, like the girls on
the line are happier about thegender neutral pt standards like
than anybody, cause, like we'retired of fucking talking about
it.
You know what I mean, because,like you don't get like a female

(48:07):
live fire, like you're stillout there like doing the thing,
and then the subject of PT comesup and then it's like all this
drama, even though, like, yourraw scores are just where your
peers are, but like so thesegirls are not putting their hand
up asking for help.
And so, um, and when I wastalking to my commander about it
, he was like the second, youfeel like you want to start a

(48:29):
family.
You should start a family.
Like the army is going to figureout like how to retain you and
where to put you.
Um, let the army figure.
That's the army's problembecause, like your talent, and
it is the army's job to keep you.
Um, so like do you knowwhatever?
And I still like was unsureabout it, kept putting it off,
putting it off and like, um, Iwas sitting in poland like we

(48:51):
didn't have like tents oranything like that when we first
got there.
We were just like in the woods.
So we're like around a fire andI'm sitting with my one of my
old west point classmates whowas like an armor officer, and
I'm like I'm getting pregnant assoon as I fucking get back,
like you know, like this is sostupid.
Like what the fuck are we doinghere, you know, because it was
obvious like we weren't going towar.
So I was like can I go home?
Like you know what I mean?

(49:13):
Um, but like yeah, and then weget back and I go to jump master
school and I'm having fun doingjump master, so I put it off a
little longer and then we getwrapped up into JRTC.
So then I'm sitting next to thesame girl at JRTC, you know, in
the middle of the night and I'mlike I'm getting pregnant as
soon as we fucking get back.

(49:33):
So I actually finally did.
But one thing I did do was thatbefore we, you know, started
having our family, I found a jobup on division staff.
So basically what I did wasremoved myself from this role
where I had to be deployable.
I didn't want to take up a spotLike I didn't want to put it on
somebody else to move me.

(49:54):
But then they feel bad formoving me and whatever, I
removed myself, went up todivision staff, got a job that
you don't deploy.
So I was the deputy immediateresponse force coordinator.
So basically it was me and amajor and we're still good
friends to this day.
But if there was like adeployment readiness exercise or

(50:15):
somebody had to deploysomewhere.
Basically we were the liaisonsbetween, like, brigade staff and
division staff, like is this s?
Is this a g1 problem or a g4problem?
And we would get them and helpthem hit their validation gates
and stuff like that.
So I got myself in that job,which was the perfect spot to be
when you're pregnant, becausethe irs deputy is not deploying,

(50:36):
because you got to outloadeverybody.
So, um, so like, once I gotthere, I was like I knew I was
gonna get out, wanted to startthe family, um, and my husband
and I had decided, likesomebody's getting out, if we're
starting a family, like this isnot gonna be sustainable and

(50:56):
basically, like this, I thinkthe whole like balance thing I'm
not gonna call it, call itbullshit.
It's bullshit for me.
Like I am not like matureenough or whatever to achieve
that, like because of that, likesled dog mentality, like if I'm
in the army, I am going to dothat, and like if I'm a mom, I'm
going to do that.

(51:16):
And so, like I knew balance forme was not going to be like
attainable, and so at first wetalked about like both getting
out and him going back to schooland maybe he could, you know,
have the baby at home and be inschool and then I could work or
whatever.
And it just kind of shook out,like he was like I don't hate
the army really, so like I got agood thing going here, like

(51:37):
I'll hang out, you know, and sothen, you know, I decided that I
was going to be the one to getout and then we were going to be
able to raise our family theway we wanted, which was with
one of us at home.
Um, you know, and we want tohomeschool and we'll see how
long we do that.
It'll probably depend a lot on,like sports, you know, if we
homeschool all the way throughor put them in a program for um

(51:59):
sports, but like, but yeah, soit was just like you know, we're
going to do it the way we wantto do it and we'll wait until
we're able to do it that way,because I didn't want to
outsource it, like I feel likeit's too important right now
Because, like I grew up in the90s where you could, just you
could go outside and play, youcould.
It was very chill, like youwatched a little bit of TV at

(52:21):
night.
But you know, I wasn't, I waslike a teenager the first time I
, like, used the internet, youknow.
So it was just like it wasn'tlike this huge thing and there's
so much shit now like competingfor your child's focus and
attention and their brain, soit's like I feel like I need a
little bit more time to makesure that those values are solid

(52:43):
before, you know, he goes outinto the world, cause I can't
protect him from everythingforever, but he just needs to
have those four values likefully installed before he goes
out and faces.
You know what's going to be alot of shit like competing for
his little like monkey brain toget his attention all the time.
So you know, we knew that likewe were kind of in a different

(53:05):
situation than our parents were,like both my parents worked.
I went to daycare like I wasfine.
You know what I mean and Idon't fault anybody who does it
that way.
It was just not going to be theway for us.
And so, yeah, for us, um, andso yeah, like hung up the the
military hat, you know, and Iwas ready to like staff uh is

(53:26):
not glamorous and it's most ofwhat officers do.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
Um, absolutely it sucks.
The best years of your entirecareer go by so fast and it
breaks my heart when you get agood officer, like man they, you
just want them to go to thehigher selection again in the sf
world.
As soon as you get a reallygood officer that is passionate,
leads from the front and is atrue dedicated fucking leader,
just like just leave this placeis not for you.
Go to the next echelon, go tothe next great selection,

(53:58):
succeed and never look back,never look back.
And then you find out thatthose guys also have to do staff
time up there.

Speaker 3 (54:03):
So it's like fuck, I lied to you yeah, dude, like you
don't need a freaking majorclear in a corner, like that is
a, that is a gross race of uhresources.
But yeah, I mean like andthat's just like, you know,
that's just the reality.
Like I kind of caught on to itat west point, like we would
have generals like come talk tous and stuff, talk to the

(54:25):
graduating class, whatever, andthey would be like you're about
to enter the best time of yourcareer.
Being a platoon leader was thebest time of my career and I was
sitting there and I was likebro, you've been in for 33 years
.
You're telling me the first 36months was the highlight.
Like oh no.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
I changed my mind.

Speaker 3 (54:48):
I immediately changed my mind and like the glory of
like small unit leadership as anofficer.
To be completely frank, is that, like those, small units don't
need an officer to be successful.
Like an ODA can functionwithout a captain, a platoon can
function without a Lieutenant,but but group cannot function

(55:08):
without officers who have neverled and nobody wants a company
commander who was never aplatoon leader.
Like nobody wants that.
So, yeah, you know it's easy tosit back and say like, oh,
being a platoon leader is likethe best.
Like, yeah, dude, because likeit's not that hard.
You know, like that's not theshitty thing, that's the fun
thing, where, like you've gotfive NCOs to catch you when you

(55:31):
like inevitably make all thesemistakes and like the whole.
You know it was frustrating asan author, like when other
officers would brag like oh,I've never done staff time and
I'm like cool, but like what isit you say you do here?
Because like it doesn't takelike dick winners to be able to

(55:54):
walk around in the woods atnight.
You know our tactics are easyon purpose.
The majority of the popular, thestudent population in ranger
school is iBullock lieutenantsand and young dudes from bat.
So like if you tell me like oh,I'm more of a tactical leader,
like I'm not super impressed,like you know, like that's not

(56:14):
how we run organizations, that'snot how we sustain a force,
like logistics straight up makesa difference in wartime.
And like, if you want to be, ifyou want to clear corners for a
living, you want to kick doorsfor a living.
Don't be an officer like youknow what I mean like you don't
get this super high paycheck andthen perform at the level of a
private and everybody's gonnaclap for you like no dude, like

(56:36):
get your ass in there andfucking row like the car's not
gonna ride itself, you know.
And then the mentorship thingis like you know, you get a lot
of leadership training as anofficer, so you bring that to.
But like your NCOs have thatlike they know how to lead, you
know.
So like what you offer them isplanning and resourcing,

(56:57):
training, training managementand like that's where units are
struggling right now, because alot of the majors and lieutenant
colonels who are in charge ofthe training calendar at echelon
, what were they doing when theywere, you know, young
lieutenants and captains?
Like they were at war, like avery different workup, very
different cycle to you know how,at least in the 80 seconds, the

(57:18):
irf cycles look now.
And so when you see thesetraining calendars that are just
fucking wall to wall crazinessand you're like did a monkey
write this?
Like who did this?
And it's like, no, did a monkeywrite this Like who did this?
And it's like no, like a dudewho never had to manage training
at a small level is now tryingto do it for the division and
the shit is a little complicated, you know what I mean.
So like I think, as kind of thenewer generation of officers

(57:43):
come up like hopefully we willsee, like a stabilization of
training management starts tohappen.
Like it's a I mean, it was aproblem in the 82nd it's a.
It's a problem in group.
Like it's an issue.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
It really is an issue everywhere.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
Um, and so, like you know, we it's so easy to shit on
staff, but like it's soimportant, like if you're
wondering like why am I neverallowed to go home on leave?
You know, why did I work 96hours this week?
You know, and that's why it'slike a lot of times it has to do

(58:18):
with like those not glamorousjobs on staff and like platoons
don't need lieutenants to run,but battalions can't function
without lieutenants.
Like you need them there.
And so like I think, like Ithink you know kind of the if
you don't want to do staff timeand that's not your thing, like
please don't be an officer,because you're going to just be
a net drain on your organization, you know yeah, it's part of it

(58:39):
comes.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
It comes with territory you gotta.
You gotta understand, embracethe greatness and and be good at
the job or just get out, bedone, be happy with your
decision, to just be like hey,I'm just gonna do this, I'm
gonna walk away.
But if you stay in, it's likeand you're miserable and you're
constantly shitting about it'slike, why are you here?
Why are you here, dog like?

(59:00):
oh yeah either either fall inlove with it and be really good
at it and make a positive impactand change and be that leader
that people look like man, thatdude's kicking ass like we can
see, like he's making an impactdown there.
He's changing the culture likeI've.
I've seen the guys that getdoom and gloom and it's like,
hey, man, like at the end of theday you could have just been a
green beret, could have been anenlisted dude, could have been

(59:22):
an 18 delta.
You chose the 18 alpha pathpath, so embrace it yeah, yeah
exactly my con ops, damn it yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (59:31):
Help me close out this ammodocument, for the love of god.
Yeah, like it just.
It just is what it is and Ithink like part of it's so easy,
um, and I'm sure in your worldyou know you do the same thing.
It's's just to a uh, officer ofa different rank, but it is so
easy to shit on lieutenants.
Like you know what I mean.

(59:52):
Like it's a, it just writesitself sometimes.
But like those lieutenants wholike do a lot of staff time,
like those are like little gemsand we need to hold onto them.
Like, if they do a lot of stafftime, they were a pretty good
pl and they actually did prettywell on staff and they just like
swallowed that freaking stafftime and took it like a champ
and like fucking protect thatguy at all costs too, because

(01:00:14):
like that's gonna be your s3 oneday, you know.
And if all we do is like I'veseen it, you know, on staff
where like the major is justlike running his lieutenants
into the ground, not mentoring.
Like you know ifutenants onstaff, like fucking counsel that
kid, you know, like help themout, dude, because like just
like I looked at privates assomebody's star major one day,

(01:00:35):
like that lieutenant issomebody's commander one day and
they might be a battalioncommander when we're like at war
with China.
So like stop fucking around.
And like develop this leader.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Like yes, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
Instead of just like shitting on him because you're
an angry major and you're goingto kick a lieutenant.
Like it's just like.
It's just so stupid because,like we should be saying
battalion every single day.
It's not a platoon leader.

(01:01:08):
Platoon leader is focused onlike 40 guys who's in charge of,
you know, the platoon live firethat every single person in the
battalion is going to beparticipating in.
It's that that lieutenant oicyou know what I mean who's
planning and resourcing thewhole thing, and he's got his
guardrails.
The battalion commander and themajor come in and they, you
know, know, get the briefs andwhatever, but like he's driving

(01:01:29):
the fucking train.
So like, you know what I meanLike that deserves it's not
glamorous, but like maybe wecould do a better job of like
just appreciating those guys forlike the work that they do, you
know, and and then we retainthat talent and you know we
don't have people that havetheir ass on their shoulders
because they're on staff time.
Like no, no, this is what yousigned up for.

(01:01:49):
Maybe West Point needs to do abetter job of like getting you
ready to be on staff Becausethey show you like band of
brothers and shit.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
Yeah, that's all they show.
They glorify, they amplify andthey make you romanticize just
one aspect of the job.
Make you romanticize just oneaspect of the job.
But in reality, if you treat itlike the entire thing is
important that you like, hey man, you're, you're going to really
love this one aspect of yourjob.
But what's going to make youthat great leader is being able

(01:02:21):
to fall in love with all thestuff that's traditionally been
highlighted as ugly.
But this is what's going tomake you just a great asset at
the battalion brigade level.
And then when you go and youtake that long walk and you go
and you take that, that, uh,that selection, you go become a
green beret, guess what?
You're going to be able to takeall those skills and then make
yourself an even better leader.

(01:02:42):
So, like, don't, don't shit onit, embrace it, embrace all
aspects of it.
And at the end of the day, likeyou said, it it's we don't give
, you know that round ofapplause to golf clap, to the
guy that's staying till 8 pmMaking sure that that live fire
range is going to go off withouta hitch.
It takes a lot being to makethose exercises function

(01:03:04):
flawlessly, or near flawlesslyin a conventional army.
In the world of regularinfantrymen like that's takes a
lot fucking.
Give those guys a pat on theback, man.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
Bring them a monster or two or at least just like
don't be an asshole, you knowlike, just at a minimum like be
nice dude, you know what I mean.
Like buddy's going through.
He hasn't been to the grocerystore in three weeks.
He wants a dog.
He can't have one because he'sworking for you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
You know like his apartment's still just a bunch
of duffel bags, yeah yeah, hehas no furniture, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:03:42):
But he's in there rolling for you every day, you
know.
But yeah, it's, it's prettyinteresting and it's interesting
to see, like on the the softside, like how similar these
issues are um like hearing whatmy husband's going through at
work with the whole liketraining, resourcing, training,
management, stuff like that.
I'm like dude, been there, likeI remember that like oh, the

(01:04:03):
asp kicked you back again youknow.
So it's like there's like somany similarities and so like.
If you're, if you can't handlelike being on, if you can't be a
good staff officer in the 82nd,like CAG probably doesn't want
you.
You know what I mean like theywant people that are going to be
excellent, no matter where theyare.

(01:04:23):
There is no such thing as likea tactical versus an admin
leader like you're either yeah aleader or you're not.
Like I don't care again.
Like I don't care if you canwalk in the woods at night, like
is your dude's jump pay fuckedup?
Like cause that's what'simpressive, that's what you're
getting paid for, you know.
And so like yeah, I've never,I've never really like bought
into that whole thing.

(01:04:45):
Um, and I did enough staff timeto be able to say, like I know
that it's important and I know,like the teams that you build on
staff and like when I was aftermy PL time, when I went back up
to staff waiting to get out,like talking to young
lieutenants, like there is stillleadership and mentorship
opportunity all over the placeon staff.

(01:05:07):
Like that was like one of myfavorite things.
Like I can I can't reallyrelate to like an infantry
private as well as I can relateto like a Lieutenant who just
came here from ranger schoollike has no idea what's going on
and is like about to take aplatoon.
Like that I can talk to youabout.
Like being a grenadier.
It's like, well, you know, Iknow my way around it, you know

(01:05:31):
I've seen and touched a 320 320,that's what we call these days
yeah, yeah like you know, soit's like I can't really relate
as well as like their.
Their ncos are gonna know themlike much better than I can yeah
like mentoring other um otherofficers on staff is like hugely
important and it's importantfor retention.

(01:05:52):
And I say that as somebody wholike got out and you know
commanders at echelon weretrying to like talk me out of
getting out, you know, but likeI knew I was ready and it wasn't
just because, like I hate thearmy, so I'm getting out Like
that's not it, it was just mylife.
I hate the army, so I'm gettingout like that's not it, it was

(01:06:12):
just my life.
It was time for me to, toreprioritize, you know, to do
the things that I want to do.
I spent an entire decade, mytwenties.
I gave it to the United States.
I stood on a wall for 10 years.
You didn't really need me foranything.
Crazy, it is what it is.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
I'm not bitter, I'm not angry, you know like yeah
but what is the idea?

Speaker 3 (01:06:36):
I can forgive it, you know whatever what is the idea
for?

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
uh, for being an entrepreneur and diving into the
space of, you know, wanting tocreate something.
Where did that come from?

Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
Yeah.
So, um, I knew from theexpensive amount of staff time
that I did, I would often besitting there and being like I
bet if I were 40% as hard formyself as I did for this guy
like whoever my boss was,whether I liked him or not, you
know I would bust.
But like, if I work 40 it's hardfor myself I could probably

(01:07:11):
achieve something pretty great.
And, um, the first idea that Ihad for starting a business I
had built a camper van, like Itook like a pro master and like
outfitted it out so we had likea little camper to cruise around
in.
And I was like, oh, maybe I cando that, like as a business,
you know.
And then I'm like pretty datadriven and a lot of the time I

(01:07:32):
spent on staff was likeprocessing data in a way that
like commanders can understandand make decisions off of.
So I did that for myself and Icrunched those numbers, brother,
and it was not gonna work like.
I'm like, okay, I'm gonna startwith an $85,000 sprinter and
then I'm gonna, you know, butI'm gonna bootstrap the whole
thing and not go into debt likeokay, like probably not, you

(01:07:52):
know.
So, luckily, yeah I had doneenough analysis, like in the
beginning, to be like, well,that's not gonna work and it was
something that I was reallyexcited about in the process.
So it's a bit like deflating tobe like man, this thing that I
thought I was really passionateabout and like wanted to do,
like probably not gonna be ableto do it.
So then I was just like youknow what You're not getting out

(01:08:13):
of the army to be a businessowner.
You're getting out of the armyto be a mom and like God has a
plan, like things are going towork out.
But like focus on this promisethat you made your husband.
You know, cause that's what itwas Like.
I promised him that like I wasgoing to get out of the army and
raise our sons the way I wanted.

(01:08:33):
So, even with the business thatI have now, I don't let it get
to a point until I'm ready tomove to the next step, cause I'm
not going to take away from ourson.
You know, like I can't, becausethat breaks my promise to him.
It's not what we were trying todo originally, you know, um,
and so I I'm growing it slowly,but the handler's palo idea

(01:08:57):
specifically like it.
We bought a quarter cow from afriend who's got a little, uh,
cattle operation in Cameron.
Um, he was like, do you wantthe beef fat to like make tallow
out of?
And I was like, oh yeah, sure,like I've heard of cooking
tallow, whatever.
You know we eat a lot of steak.
So I was like, yeah, I'll takeit.
And so I start looking up howto render tallow down and how to

(01:09:22):
make cooking tallow.
And then, you know, your phonejust goes crazy after you Google
something like enough time.
You know your phone just goescrazy after you Google something
like enough times.
And so I start to see like, ohmy God, like you can make so
much stuff out of this.
And we cared a lot about whatwas going in our body.
We had not given a lot ofthought to like what goes on our
body, but when we had a baby,uh, we started thinking about

(01:09:43):
that.
So, um, I would look on theingredients labels of stuff of
lotion and body wash and stuff.
And I would look on theingredients labels of stuff of
lotion and body wash and stuffand I'm like, why is there?
Why is there blue and yellowdye in this?
Like I don't.
So I was having trouble findinglike products that I trusted
and I should have cared aboutmyself like that the whole time,
but it wasn't until I had a sonthat I started to care, and so

(01:10:07):
when I saw that you could makelike personal care products out
of tallow, I was like, oh shit,like I'll give it a shot.
And uh, a little goes a longway.
You can make a lot of productswith like 5 to 15 pounds of beef
fat, and so I had like abajillion jars of tallow
moisturizer.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
And.

Speaker 3 (01:10:24):
I was like, oh no, like I made too much, um.
So I was like, well, you know,I'll uh give it to some friends
and family and they loved it.
And I was like I'll put it onfacebook marketplace, you know.
And so I threw it up on thereand then, like people were
beating the door down becausethey were like we have been
looking for local products,because we don't trust anything
that's out there, and like, ifyou're making this stuff locally

(01:10:45):
, because, like the customerswho want tallow products,
natural soaps, whatever, you canfind that stuff on amazon,
unfortunately, like our soapsare on amazon but like
unfortunately, amazon has beenso overrun by, like companies
from a certain country who maybehave some shady business

(01:11:07):
practices from china yourhomemade brands from america are
on page like 11 11 of thefucking search results and they
don't trust that stuff and it'sbad.
it's not only bad for like, justlike, having shitty products on

(01:11:28):
amazon sucks, but it's bad forsmall brands to actually take
the time to get onto Amazonbecause now that trust is
already broken, so that's oneless avenue that small business
owners have to reach people.
So it's just a bummer, butpeople love to buy that stuff
locally and so I threw up alittle website and started doing

(01:11:48):
little farmers markets andstuff like that and it just like
it just took off.
Like I had no idea that peoplewere so interested in this,
particularly like I'm in amilitary community at Bragg and
we're exposed to like so muchbullshit in the military, you'd
almost think that like peopledon't even care anymore.
And that's not.
That couldn't be further fromthe truth, because we're so

(01:12:09):
exposed to stuff that we can'tcontrol.
A lot of dudes like we weretalking about with the alcohol
thing like they're starting totake ownership, where they can,
of their own wellness and so youknow, you see a lot of dudes.
A lot of military families arebuying meat from farmers down
here.
They have chickens in theirbackyard.
Like if and if you registeryour chickens as emotional

(01:12:32):
support animals, the hoa in thecity, in the county, can't come
for you.
I swear to god.

Speaker 2 (01:12:39):
yeah, yeah, super easy jotting that down I know,
yeah, there's nothing shout outto sunny egg co, I might get
some of your chicken sent my wayexactly so, like.

Speaker 3 (01:12:50):
So people are figuring out, kind of one,
taking control of, like, whatthey're taking into their body,
what they're putting onto theirbody, which I think is great
because it's supporting localfarmers, it's strengthening our
food supply system, because ifthere's not a market for it,
like the, the food supply systemisn't going to be strong.
All of a sudden, when a problemhappens, you know, like your,

(01:13:13):
your guest that was on that wastalking about all the
agriculture, that was a greatepisode.
And like he's right, likethere's a huge problem, but like
I'm not a wait on thegovernment to fix it, kind of
gal like I was, and like I knowhow long that shit takes and
it's a mess, and so, like youknow, so I like vote with your
dollar, like that's what's gonnamatter to corporations, but

(01:13:39):
like you could not buy somethingfrom tyson meats and they
probably won't notice.
But you go purchase a whole cowfrom a farmer, like a local
farmer, and that guy's going tonotice, his family's going to
notice.
You know, like that amount ofmoney that you invested in
yourself and in that local farmis going to be felt, whereas

(01:14:00):
your business leaving thismultinational corporation,
they're never going to know.
And so, yeah, like.
So there was just this hiddenmarket of people who felt like I
did, moms, who felt like I did,soldiers, who felt like I did
and and I just didn't know itwas there and I felt like I
stumbled on it, you know, andit's just, it's been fantastic,

(01:14:25):
like the support that we havefrom people in this community
and like, increasingly, in themilitary community, like I feel
like I should have tapped intothat market and let them know I
was out here sooner, you know,because I don't think people are
talking to them in like thenatural care space, like I don't
think people are talking tosoldiers right now and like they
should be, because those arethe guys that need it.

(01:14:45):
You know, like every, even ifyou're not like buying meat from
a farmer, like it doesn't haveto be all or nothing, it took me
a while to stop using like thecleaning products that I really,
really love.
You know it was a hard pill toswallow to fill a spray bottle
up with vinegar and clean mykitchen with that Like dude.

(01:15:06):
I'm not going to say I did itright away because I didn't.
It took me a while to get there,but I got there and so it was
just kind of like a one thing ata time and like anything that
you can do to eliminate toxinsor things that you don't
understand from your life, likethat's a good thing, you know,
and people will try to gaslightyou, like oh uh, everything's a

(01:15:27):
chemical, like at its core, andjust because you can't read it
doesn't mean it's bad for you.
And I'm like okay, motherfucker, like you know, like don't talk
to me like I'm an idiot, likeyou know, like I'm not an idiot
and and these people aren't hereout here aren't idiots.
Like if it came from a realthing, you would be putting that
real thing on your label, butbut but you're making it in a

(01:15:50):
lab, you know.
And so like I don't make mystuff in a lab, I make my stuff
like right in my kitchen andlike it keeps me at home with my
baby and I can keep fulfillingthat promise I had to.
My husband gets us outside atfarmer's markets, like I truly
love it, um, and I think notwanting to get rich off of
tallow stuff keeps it in like ahealthy, a healthy thing.

(01:16:12):
You know, like I'm not gonnahave some MBA come in and tell
me how to scale my business andlike start compromising my
values Because, like we talkedabout, like integrity is super
important to me and like I Iknow how I'm making my stuff.
And if I were to compromise,like I don't know that, I could
stand in front of a customer andbe like here's this thing that
you're going to put on yourchild.

(01:16:33):
You know, like, exactly, yougot to take that stuff really
seriously so.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
Jess, I can't.
I can't tell you how much I'min the same boat, man.
We're new parents as well.
Congratulations, thank you, man, that we're new parents as well
, and congratulations, thank you.
Before we even, like started ourjourney with being parents, my
wife was super like.
I have endocrine issues and mywife was my wife's.
The same same mentality,hard-hitting, like once you find

(01:17:01):
something's wrong with your,with the way your body's
operating.
It was a like, okay, what elsecan, what's, what else is a
disruptor of your hormones andyour endocrine system?
And we just changed everythingfrom air purifiers to friggin
everything that we have around,same thing cleaning agents in
the house.
But the moment we found outwe're having a little izzy.
It was like, okay, like we needto drastically look at what we

(01:17:24):
put on our bodies, what we putin our food, and same thing that
that pulling that little stringwill just take you down a deep
web of like looking at all theshit that he put in your, in
your pharmaceuticals, and thethings that you put in the
cleaning agents and what you putin your.
You know we always thought like, oh, these things that make it
smell good in your soap isperfect, it's great stuff.

(01:17:46):
No, it's fucking harmful foryou.
To make it smell good and yoursoap is perfect, it's great
stuff.
No, it's fucking harmful foryou.
So your mission with yourtallow products is absolutely
something that I I can look atand say like, dude, we need to
support this and, um, where canpeople get your products?

Speaker 3 (01:17:59):
yeah, so, like I said , our soaps and deodorants and
shampoo bars are on amazon.
So if you got some prime pointsbuilt up or something, I'm not
gonna judge you you you can gobuy them off Amazon, but our
full line of product isavailable at handlerstallocom.

Speaker 2 (01:18:17):
Perfect.
And where can people connectwith you on social media?

Speaker 3 (01:18:21):
Handler's Trying Hard is our Instagram, and every
once in a while I'll throwsomething up on the TikTok, but
Instagram's where it's at.

Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
Heck.
Yeah, jess, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
I greatly appreciate you beingvulnerable enough to share your
complete story.
Man, it's something thateverybody has a personal opinion
, but, like I said earlier, getoutside of your beliefs and just
look at the human factor.
Like, if a person has a dreamand they're willing to do the

(01:18:52):
job, and they can do the job,and they've gotten the fucking
ranger tab and they've gottenthe that they the proven record
of doing it.
Like, just be happy for a humanbeing that's out there chasing
their dreams.
And your, your story is justthat, like somebody, that's
those wanting to do this greatbig thing and somehow it all
lined up.
And, man, I am so grateful foryou sharing that story and even

(01:19:16):
more grateful that you'rewilling to go out there and then
try again with theentrepreneurial endeavor, which
I know is not easy.

Speaker 3 (01:19:22):
No, it's so scary yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
But thank you so much for being here To everybody
tuning in.
Thank you, guys.
I'm not going to keep youlonger, but please go to the
episode description, Click onthose links, Buy a bar of soap
or two and when you're done, goto Spotify or YouTube.
Leave us a comment and a likeand a subscribe.
I'd greatly appreciate it.
It is my mission to bring yougreat individuals like Jess and
help you, you know, Appreciateit.
It is my mission to bring yougreat individuals like Jess and

(01:19:47):
help you, you know, understandthat the human spirit can go
through some hard, challengingthings and still make it out
alive and make it out,especially after being an 82nd
and getting in trouble for memes.

Speaker 3 (01:19:59):
That's a yeah you can't do it with DDI, so I got
to go Mark.

Speaker 1 (01:20:03):
So like I wasn't, it was memes that brought her down
folks.

Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
Thank you so much.
We'll see you all next time.
Until then, take care.
Thanks for tuning in and don'tforget to like, follow, share,
subscribe and review us on yourfavorite podcast platform.
If you want to support us, headon over to buymeacoffeecom
forward slash SecHawk podcastand buy us a coffee.
Connect with us on Instagram Xor TikTok and share your

(01:20:35):
thoughts or questions abouttoday's episode.
You can also visitsecurityhawkcom for exclusive
content, resources and updates.
And remember we get throughthis together.
If you're still listening, theepisode's over.
Yeah, there's no more Tune intomorrow or next week.

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