From Soldier to Cybersecurity Expert: Cody Lummus' Inspiring Journey

Imagine a former military personnel turned cybersecurity expert dedicated to fight against human trafficking, Cody Lummus is exactly that. Our conversation with him takes us on an inspiring journey from a Jeep accident to his redefining encounter with a boot camp instructor. Cody's story is a testament to embracing change, having the courage to transition careers, and the power of lifelong learning.

Cody shares his experiences attending cybersecurity boot camps, highlighting the immense value of courses that focus on building the industry foundations, instead of just teaching the test. He emphasizes the importance of hands-on experience and the role of committed instructors in molding a student's future. Hear him talk candidly about taking ownership of your future, navigating ageism in the job search, and the difference an inspiring mentor can make in your life.

Finally, Cody offers invaluable advice for those venturing into the field of cybersecurity. He stresses the need for continuous learning, a strong foundation, and having a passion for your work. Cody's journey is a shining example of how age and lack of experience need not be roadblocks in the path to success, if you're armed with the right mindset. So, join us as we explore the crucial lessons Cody's journey from the military to cybersecurity has to teach us all.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
And it's me.
That's right.
It is the Cyber Warrior, thisis Cyber Warrior Studios and I
know you're all here for anotheramazing episode Security Happy
Hour.
Now, before we get started,understand, this show is
free-flowing.
It is free-forming.
There are Super Chests in thebottom If you want to donate to
the cause.
I'm just saying, I'm justthrowing that out there Now.
Otherwise, look, I love you alland I promise we're going to

(00:23):
get back with our amazing guestshere in a second.
You just got to hang with me.
It's like 10 seconds, all right, and we're back, and that's
right.
It is me, it is the CyberWarrior with me, I have Cody and
yes, it is Freya's Day.
Happy Freya's Day, everybody.
And once again, we're here.
We are here in hold on.

(00:44):
We got to get the officialsound.
There it is.
The official sound is SecurityHappy Hour, and we're ready to
go.
Cody, I'm going to go get theofficial sound.
I'm going to go get theofficial sound.
The official sound is SecurityHappy Hour, and we're ready to
go.
Cody, as we're getting started,please give these folks a
rundown about who you are andwhat we're going to get into.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Well, with the opening sound, I just have to
say I already need to pee, butwe're going to hold that.
But anyway, my name is Cody.
Cody Loanis.
I'm I don't know.
You all can see me on myLincoln and everything else but
I'm 47 years old and goingthrough a cybersecurity boot
camp Now.

(01:27):
I started out in the military in1994 out of the out of high
school and did 22 years, 10months and eight days.
Then I was 11 Charlie andjumped out of planes and blew
stuff up at six deployments asan infantryman and then went
into supply of all goddamnthings and started learning

(01:48):
logistics and went to theNational Guard, got a full-time
National Guard gig, deployedonce to Afghanistan and would
rather have walking over brokenglass than go on that deployment
.
But being a being an infantrydude that goes into the supply
realm and into carpet land,don't like it, but but anyway,
come out of that, retired in2016 and basically lived off the

(02:14):
grid, built my own log cabinwith my own hands.
Didn't had no heavy, heavyequipment at all, just a
chainsaw and a couple of laddersto build my own log cabin.
Generated power, solar power.
I had a fuck ton of chickens.
You got to have ducks and someother shit, but anyway, the that

(02:35):
turned up, that's a full-timejob in itself.
And one night my wife she rolledher, rolled her Jeep and I had
been thinking about wanting togo to Weldon School where to
learn in some sort of trade.
And she rolled her Jeep, wastrapped upside down for about 30
minutes and couldn't get out.
Her seatbelt was locked.
She couldn't get out of herseatbelt and out in the darkness

(02:58):
.
It was about 2.30 in themorning and from I just heard a
real faint help, help and I waslike what the hell?
I used my flashlight and seenher.
I was like, oh well, that'supside down.
I didn't get her out of thatand within probably three hours
I had applied to a with a VAthrough a local welding school

(03:19):
up here and I said I'm going tobuild you a world cage.
That was my introduction towelding and fabrication.
So did that and went throughthat school that was 10 weeks
upon at a blast.
No one loved welding andfabrication.
Right out of that startedbuilding handrails and
structural steel components forapartment buildings.

(03:40):
And what have you?
That sucks, it's dirty, thatsucks, that's fucking dirty.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
It's dirty, it's nasty.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
It's hot, you're blowing out black boogers from
all the frigid welding gases andeverything else and decided to
move into an indoor applicationwhere I was hoping to work on
hot rods and maybe do some otherstuff.
I turned a horse trailer into amobile bar.
That was my first game.

(04:11):
Can you do that for me?
No, no, I do know a guy thatcan, though, I know a guy but
yeah, but absolutely, it'swelding and fabrication sucks.
It's hard work, but, like Isaid at that time, I was 40, I

(04:32):
was 2018.
So what's that been?
I can't even do the math in myhead right now, but anyway, I
was in my early 40s and did thatand blew my back out somewhere
I don't know A few years into itand now I can't lean over, I
can't lift up the heavy stuff, Ican't go to the boot and I

(04:52):
can't be on the ground, rollaround in the dirt.
So decided I need to changeavenues.
I became a CNC programmer,learned G code and M code,
started programming, freakingCNC mills and lathe's, learned
that all by myself, didn't haveany boot camp or nobody to teach

(05:15):
me, just flashcards that aremade on my own and the will of
fucking YouTube.
But yeah, overall it went tostart going well.
But again, I'm getting old.
I can't bend over and lean intothose machines and standing up
all day at those things justkilling me.
Plus, the money ain't that good.

(05:36):
So I need something else to gointo.
Cyber security has been drawingmy attention since I was a not
even a kid but the digital realmI've been looking at since I
was a kid.
I love computers and I lovedoing stuff digibles.
I played video games.
I built my own computer back inthe early 2000s.

(05:59):
I had a lot of fun doing that.
Anyway, short story long,decided to go into cyber
security because it'll let mestay in the light.
I had an issue on one of mydeployments where I intervened
in a rape, sexual assault thatturned out to be human
trafficking and I can't go kickdoors anymore.

(06:23):
But if this will, let me stayin the fight and maybe go catch
those people.
Cyber security, let me helpthat and by God, if I can stay
in the fight doing that, I'mgoing to.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
And that's the biggest thing, because when you
look at it and when we look at,I'm not even going to say a lot
because I don't see a lot ofpeople talk about it, but
there's quite a few people thattalk about the reasonings they
get into this field and, whetherit's human trafficking or
whatever the case may be,something to help others and

(06:55):
help everyone.
One of the biggest reasons thatI got in the military was to
help people and I didn't getthat opportunity.
I deployed, I did other things,but I never felt like I was
making a difference.
Even now I'm making adifference, but for companies.
I still feel like I'm missingthat human element of helping

(07:16):
people, which is why I do thisshow, which is why I do the
content that I do is because itis my way of helping people.
But, to your point, if you cando that, if you can get in with
these organizations, if you canget into cybersecurity, digital
forensics, social engineering,all these other avenues that are

(07:38):
out there, it will do nothingbut help your cause.
So I think that the first topicof discussion needs to be that
boot camp and what it's teachingyou.
So you're in a 20-week bootcamp, correct?
Yes, sir, and with that 20-weekboot camp, how do you feel that
instruction has helped you kindof learn the ins and outs of

(08:01):
what it is we do incybersecurity?

Speaker 2 (08:04):
Well, we're honestly, we're just now getting into the
pentest portion of this bootcamp.
This is a 20-week boot camp.
This last four weeks is pentestplus.
And in fact I got my pentest.
I scheduled my pentest plusexam for the 26th of this month.
I've already passed my securityplus, got that first time go

(08:29):
last month.
The last four weeks of it wasall security plus.
But prior to that, this coursethat I've gone through laid the
groundwork that I don't think awhole lot of these boot camps do
At least I don't hear aboutthem doing it.
We went through server plus, wewent through Linux plus cloud

(08:50):
and we went through network.
I mean we had 20 weeks ofnetwork where we pulled up GNS3
and we made our own networks andmade them all work.
We made our own firewalls,configured everything and we got
a congratulations, by the way,from SpaceTacos.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
I know who that is, but I'm not going to put her
name out there Now either way,spacetaco sound pretty yummy.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
I don't know what's in them B Fort or Alien Matter.
Anyway, the-.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
But I love the fact that you talk about going
through the foundations, becausethat's the biggest part.
Buddy, do it.
That is something a lot of bootcamps miss, especially when
you're looking at somebody's oneweek certification boot camps.
Yeah, so the fact that yours is20 weeks, so I don't know who
you're going through right now.
If you want to say it, you cansay it.
You don't have to.
I know I got a good friend, Igot one of my sisters, one of my

(09:44):
warriors, going through theGoogle Cybersecurity Boot Camp,
and so she keeps me up to dateon everything she's learning and
everything she's going through,and so with that, I know they
are teaching foundations to anextent not fully in depth,
probably, that could be taught,but enough that you'll
understand ports, enough thatyou'll understand some of the

(10:07):
basic concepts and constructs.
So do you feel that in yourboot camp right now, they have
taught you enough about thebasics?
Now, you, as someone who grewup in the digital realm while me
and you were about that I mean,you're older than me, let's not
lie, but you grew up.
So you grew up, you were in thedigital realm, you built
computers, you know computers,you kind of came up in that fast

(10:29):
same as myself.
Would you feel that you'reteaching enough in that basic
construct for others to take thesame boot camp?

Speaker 2 (10:39):
The boot camp that I'm in right now.
Yes, it's in the 20 weeks thatI'm going through.
It's only four hours a day,it's a half time schedule and
they have a full time schedule.
That's only 10 weeks, butyou're there eight hours going
through course, sitting there infront of a computer and doing
labs.
The course I'm going through isthrough Divergence Academy and

(11:03):
it's a certified professionalpenetration tester course, cppt.
These guys are, in my opinion,they're killing it.
I've seen and chat with otherpeople that are going through
different courses.
They're not getting nearly thesame kind of instruction or
hands-on experience that we'regetting.
While going through Linux wedid maybe a week, if that of it

(11:31):
was within the first week.
We pulled up our own VMs.
We built our own virtualmachines on either VMware or
whatever.
The Cisco one is virtual box.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
Yeah, oracle.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah, we built our own Linux machines.
We were taught it's like allright, log in, All right, SSH
back into your computer.
You don't make a screen.
This is how you do it.
This is how you do screens.
This is how you do this.
This is how you do that.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Would you say that boot camp name once again?
Is that a third in chat?

Speaker 2 (12:03):
Divergence Academy.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
A-C-A-D-E-M-Y.
Okay, cool, yeah, because SpaceTalkers was asking, so I wanted
to throw that in there that way, so you could look it up too.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
Oh, absolutely yeah, these guys, they're instructors.
Like I said, I don't have much.
This is the first boot campI've been through, so I well I
guess the second one First onewas a lot of yelling and
spitting on my face, but thisone was these guys seemed to
know their stuff.
From what people I've talked tothat have gone through other

(12:36):
boot camps, they're not gettingnearly the amount of education
or the hands-on education.
Yeah, like I said, we had anentire two weeks of networking.
That was nothing but GNS3 andbuilding and maintaining a
network.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
I love that you said GNS3, because that is one of the
things.
When I was going through one ofmy schools I can't remember
which one it was we talked a lotabout that and I had talked to
some other people and they hadliterally used GNS3, because of
the way it operates, to build alegit network from an office to
their home.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
I was like, hold up, you can do that.
I know like, all right, you cando all this.
You just got to have the imagesand this at the third, and so,
from a networking construct, itis probably one of the best
applications out there.
However, comma, you have to payfor the iOS or the OS that
you're using to be able to dothose things.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
You do.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
I do While I'm in this course.
It's free and due to thiscourse, the way it's designed,
they're not here to get you asyour certificate and teach the
test.
They don't care about tests.
What they care about is realworld experience and getting you
into the industry and gettingyou a job.

(14:00):
We have this thing that's justcome out this year called CRW.
It's the career readinessworkshop.
So while you're going throughthese courses, you also have a
few hours a week, maybe once aweek, where they teach you how
to write a resume, where theyteach you how to sell yourself

(14:22):
and how to take your militaryexperience and translate it into
a cyber field.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
And that is absolutely amazing because and
I'm going to put this questionup from Jenny but essentially
bootcamps have a huge issueright now.
Right, Because you have a lotout there that are for
certification, security plusbootcamp, CCNA bootcamps, CEH
bootcamps and things like that.
Now, I have a differentbootcamp experience than a lot

(14:52):
of other people, because theones I went through and the
instructor I had taught me a lot, but again, it came down to the
instructor, not the actualclass itself.
So we'll discuss that, but Iwant your take on this, Cody.
Let me ask why do bootcamps geta bad reputation and what are
some red flags to look out for?

Speaker 2 (15:13):
Well, ginny, I can honestly tell you why some do
and why some don't, because thisis the only one I've been
through.
But I can tell you that some Iwould think, from some of the
chats I've been in and lookingat other people going through
different boot camps, that it isgeared towards test taking and
they don't build the foundationsthat you need to get into this

(15:37):
industry.
They don't build I mean howmany, how many frigging security
plus boot camps have you everheard of or gone through or seen
that teach you how to build apatch cable?
I went through that, yeah, Imean, who does that?
I learned that in the Air Force.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah.
Yeah, you have to have stillhate it, but I learned it.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
I think a lot of these courses that are selling
security plus certifications orboot camps or pin test boot
camps, that's all that it is andif you don't have a background
that directly feeds that skillset, it's going to be super hard
to get anywhere, super hard topass.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
And so, for me, one of the biggest things is this
and you said it, and this iswhere I'm going to provide a
counterpoint based on researchso many boot camps yes, they
teach the test.
That's how they're going toteach.
Their goal is to get you topass.
So, whether that's them goingout and buying test dumps and
saying, hey, study this andyou'll know what you're doing,
da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da,da, da, da, da, da da, whatever
the case may be, their goal isto increase their pass rate as

(16:48):
much as possible.
Right?
So when you're in certificationboot camps, it's very hard to
get the knowledge that you'regoing to need to actually do the
job.
My only counterpoint to that isthrough Infosec Institute and,
more specifically, ketron Evans.
That man taught me so muchbecause, yes, probably initially

(17:10):
the class or and or, like thematerial is is meant to just get
you to pass the test, but youget the right instructors,
they'll teach you the job.
And this man taught meeverything I thought I went into
the class I had been breakinginto my own wireless network
using Kali Linux and backtrackand everything else and doing
things for years.
I get in this.

(17:30):
This man taught me things Ididn't even know, and it had
nothing to do with the test.
It was legitimately.
This is how you're going to doyour job.
This is what's important.
Yeah, go ahead, go do this.
I'll teach you what you knowwe're supposed to teach you in a
curriculum, but I'm also goingto teach you the real way to do
it.
I'm also going to teach you thethings that they're not going
to teach you for a certification, because the certifications are

(17:52):
meant for compliance versusactually how things are done.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, it's.
It's going back a few episodeswith the GRC thing and the
compliance checklists and it's acheck a box.
Do you have this, yes or no?
It's like, did you, did youtrain this, yes or no?
And you can check a box andmove on.
These guys.

(18:21):
I have reached out to the dudesat nine o'clock on a Sunday,
you know, through our chatchannels and asked him and had
to come into Jesus meeting withmyself and be like, oh, I got to
talk to somebody that's in theknow, so I talk to my
instructors.
They've pulled me up at nineo'clock at night on a Sunday and
talk to me.
And shit, I'm on the freakingPacific coast man and I'm

(18:44):
talking to people on the Eastcoast and they're still pulling
me up.
I probably really interruptedthe Diablo, but they take the
time to do it.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
And and that to me, like I said, the instructors.
I have not had an issue withany of these instructors, so I
can't blame my failure on any ofthe instructors.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
It's my own failure because these dudes are here for
us and, man, it sounds like I'mpaid by this guy, but but
anyway yeah, but but you said alot because at the same time,
even when I went through InfoSecInstitute and they're in their
trainings and things like that,those instructors were the same

(19:25):
way.
Hechron, evans and I did a CCNAbootcamp too.
That one I just kind of liketook what a great assault
because I had already done CCNAso it was easy for me.
But like he's run, evans waslike hey, I'm going to be here
till like nine, 10 o'clocktonight and you're staying at a
hotel, you're there for theclass, you're going into a hotel
training atmosphere.
So it's like I can be here ifyou need me.

(19:47):
If no one shows up by like Idon't know, an hour or two after
we're done, I'm out and so.
But he was still available andso it was one of those things.
Like I'll make myself availableIf you tell me you're going to
need someone tonight.
Like if you, if no one shows up, or if no one tells me they're
going to need to talk, then yeah, I'm going to leave and go
about my business for the night,because I'm here training all

(20:10):
day.
I don't want to be here 24hours a day.
You know what I mean.
So like he was one of thosepeople that I still, to this day
, reach out on, reach out to onLinkedIn.
I still talk to this.
He has been a great mentor forme and has done amazing things
and takes care of his students.
He is how I got my InfoSackHall of Fame Award.
He nominated me because of theway things happened and the fact

(20:34):
that he's there and he willalways be available.
So it's not always the school.
Sometimes, many times, it's theinstructor, absolutely.
Some of these instructors getpaid and are like all right, I'm
out, see you later.
Others actually care.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yeah, you can have a Michelle Pfeiffer thing.
You know what the fuck was thatmovie?
Probably Beautiful Minds orwhatever.
But yeah, you can have thatMichelle Pfeiffer moment with
that shitty school that nobodygives, gives a damn about the
students.
You've got that one instructorthat really cares and that is
what is going to drive yourstudents.
It's you had the courseware orwhatever the freaking school

(21:14):
puts out might be good, but thatone instructor is the one
you're going to remember and theone that's going to inspire you
.
You know what my big thingmight have?
A big saying in my head all thetime that from Hannibal it's
you either find a way or youmake one.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
And I love that.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
And that's where I'm at.
Man, I'm like, I'm like I'mstuck right now in this, in this
, in this blue collar.
It's all I've ever done is bluecollar.
I know how to forklift.
I don't have to drive aforklift, I can drive a front
end loader.
I did construction, I laidasphalt, I've built, I've been
rolling around on the dirt as awelder, the fabricator.
Blue collar, blue collar, bluecollar.

(22:00):
But you know something it'stime for a change and I'm going
to either find a way to changeor I'm going to make a way to
change.
Ain't nobody going to stop me?

Speaker 1 (22:10):
And that's the biggest thing.
So in spacegozet, I was goingto say it, but she said it.
So it's dangerous minds.
I knew exactly the movie wewere talking about and you're
right.
It comes down to the instructorand, at the same time,
everything in our lives is aboutus.
You have to take ownership ofit.
If you want it, you got to gofor it.
This feeds into all the othercontent.

(22:30):
I do so for anybody out therethat does not watch my daily
videos or anything else.
Understand this regardless ofwhat the premise is, the reality
of it is take ownership of your, of your life.
Take ownership of where youwant to go with, because that's
going to be the biggest thing.
If you don't take ownership, ifyou make excuses, if you say,
oh, I can't do it because ofthis, or I can't do it because

(22:52):
of that, or I can't do itbecause of this, no, you can't
do it because of you because youwant excuses, you want to put
blame on somebody else, when thereality of it is you don't want
to go for it, you're notputting your best foot forward,
you're not trying to make theeffort.
So with that and that'll leadme into my next point, because
we talk about the fact thatyou're in your mid to late 40s.

(23:18):
How do you think that hasimpacted you being in this boot
camp right now?

Speaker 2 (23:24):
I think it's improved everything.
I think the impact that I'vemade some mistakes, man, I know
how to study now I know, I knowthat.
Man, I've been through so manytests, I've been through so many
field problems, I've beenthrough so many different things
.
I have the experience.
I've been around the block.
I've kicked in, I've beenkicking the nuts on many times

(23:47):
and from making mistakes I knowI don't like the pain of getting
kicked in the nuts.
So I'm a hard, oh, buddy, oh,so I'm not going to do that shit
, no more.
And going into this goddamnboot camp, it's not hard just to
do the basics and with itwithin life, it's not hard to do

(24:08):
the basics.
You already know how to breathe.
You know you need food.
Well, there's two thingsscratch off your list, let's
work on the rest.
And I don't know it's uh.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
Do you think your age is going to hold you back from
getting a job, or do you thinkit's you?

Speaker 2 (24:27):
I think it's, uh, I think it might be a combination
of both.
I think it's my mental capacityor not my mental capacity.
It's my mental uh.
I guess, uh, I don't know whatI'm trying to look at here.
It's my own vision of being old, of being older and me holding
myself back because of that.
Um, I don't think it's.

(24:48):
Uh, my age is that people aregoing to look at kind of resume
and be like, oh, this dude's 47years old.
We can't hire him.
You know it's like well, what Ilook at is the ROI If you're
going to hire a 20 year old or a27 year old that hasn't been

(25:09):
kicked in the nuts a hundredthousand times, and then, or
you're going to hire the 47 yearold that knows he's got to go
into work and he's got to dothis and that and the other and
has a willingness to do it 27years old.
I'm sorry, anybody out there is27 years old.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
You don't know what you want to be.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
But I'll tell you what buddy it?
Uh, I have the drive, I havethe hunger and I have a
willingness to learn.
I'm still capable of learning.
I taught myself two years agohow to program a CNC machine
with zero help and I was runningboth programs 24 hours a day.
I set that stuff up on nightand eventually it was just like

(25:51):
well, it's ready to go.
I'm going to put it for thismany numbers and I'm going to go
home and let it run with nobodywatching it.
Normal freaking businessesdon't do that for six months at
least six months after they puta new process in.
I was doing it within two.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
So if you're gonna tell me a, 47 year old doesn't
have.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
You're gonna tell me a 47 year old doesn't have the
capacity to learn and thecapacity to do that.
I'll tell you what.
I got a $35,000 contract that Ifulfilled that says I can.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
And I love the fact that you said that because here
was an argument I had with theDepartment of Energy and with
the boss that was hiringfull-time employees versus
contract.
So me, I had been in the fieldof IT and networking and things
like that for quite a few years,had the experience, I knew what
I was doing.
I could fix any computer.

(26:46):
I was in the military, I hadall this.
He came at me and he said oh,you need a 367 GPA.
I said, all right, bet.
I said so you're gonna pullsome jackass out of college that
doesn't know your systems,doesn't know your operating
systems, doesn't know whatyou're doing here internally and
hire him versus someone like Idon't know myself, that has a

(27:10):
degree and I don't care what theGPA is.
I've been working here for overa year and I know more about
your systems and how to fix yourcomputers than anybody else.
And his response to me was get aCCIE and I'll hire you for six
figures a year.
Homie, I don't need to get aCCIE.
I have less than that now and Imake more than that now.
So let's really figure out whatthe problem is.

(27:33):
And the problem is certainregulations within the
government and Department ofEnergy and all these other
places that are like, oh, youneed this to get hired.
No, bitch, no, I don't.
I'd rather hire someone withouta degree and with the hunger to
learn and the ability to learn.
And now I'm in a position to doso.
Now I'm finally in a positionas of I have the ability.

(27:56):
Once we get thoughts open andwe got the clients coming in, I
got the ability to hire now.
So guess what you betterbelieve?
You show me you're hungry.
You show me that you're willingto do the work, you're willing
to put in the effort.
I will hire anybody willing todo that over some college kid
that just graduated oh, is thatcollege kid if he didn't put in

(28:17):
the effort to do a YouTubechannel or a blog post or make
his name no one on LinkedIn?
I don't care about you.
I really don't give a damn.
If I don't know you.
I don't care.
I care about the people that Isee every single day that are
making that effort to let meknow who they are, and everybody

(28:37):
in my community is the same wayand I have pushed you.
Look at anybody in my YouTubechat right now, and I got Angie
on Twitch also.
I got everybody else that issitting there and they're here,
they're showing up, and I seethem every day on LinkedIn.
I see you Cody, I see Andrea, Isee Space Tacos and I know who

(28:58):
that really is.
Avant.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
I don't know who you are but let's run with it.
I probably do I got a man SpaceTacos.
You gotta be in me, man.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
We gotta connect I got people here that are putting
in the effort, that are puttingin the work.
The Land Shark, I'm just seeingyou, homie.
Don't go there with me, homie,you are already making good
money too, so fuck you.
So, oh, patrick, all right.
So I see these people, I knowthese people.

(29:28):
So when I go to hire someone,when I'm going to look for a job
, I'm gonna look for the peoplethat have interacted.
I'm gonna look for the peoplethat have been making a name.
I'm gonna look for the peoplethat have been putting in the
effort to say I fucking belonghere, I belong, I've earned it.
Not that people are like.
I graduated college.
Please hire me, I don't careabout you.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
College didn't teach you shit, because the work
industry and the work field andcybersecurity is fucking hard.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
What college gave you was baseline zero.
That is exactly what collegegave you.
You paid to get to baselinezero to get a degree in
something, and high school isbaseline 0.75.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
So nowadays everybody's asking for a
freaking college degree.
Does that college degreeactually make you more hireable?
No, that was an underwaterbasket weaving in the blind man.
Well shit, we got a degree, solet's hire.
No, I will hire the high schoolgraduate in a heartbeat If he
shows the heart, has theattitude and wants to learn, 800

(30:40):
times more than I will hirethat freaking high school or
that college graduate that has adegree and is entitled.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
I used to drive Uber, right, and I had college
students all the time ask me soif I wanted to get into
cybersecurity, what would ittake?
Do you have a blog?
Do you have a YouTube channel?
Are you available on LinkedIn?
Do I know you're posting?
Are you commenting?
Are you being like Andrea, whoshares every job offer out there

(31:13):
Like, look, homies, go choosethis.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
Go find it.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
Are you doing these things?
No, then I don't know who youare, so why would I hire you?
I had someone call me agatekeeper because I told them,
if I don't know you, if I can'tGoogle your name or Google a
handle or something like that,and figure out who the hell you
are, then why would I hire you?
You're not proving anything tome.
We are in an age whereanonymity needs to go out the

(31:38):
damn window, because thegovernment knows who the hell
you are already, so you might aswell just put yourself out
there.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
Absolutely so.
And then putting in the extrawork Doing.
Yeah, like I said, I'm 47.
If I need to put in extra work,some of the bitch, I'm 47.
I sleep very little.
I need sleep.
I'm old and I tea a lot atnight.
That's just how it works.
But I'm going to bed atmidnight and I'm getting up at

(32:08):
five o'clock in the morning so Ican go back to work the next
day, sit through four hours ofclass and do eight hours at work
after class and then go backand study for another four hours
, or is that Put that back totwo.
Yeah, if it's not direct bookstudy in.
I got a Wi-Fi pineapple.
I'm trying to figure this shitout so I can be more marketable,

(32:29):
so I can put in that extra workand figure out how to do a
better job before I get intowhere I'm going.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
And that's the thing, right.
It's all about the effort youput in.
It's about what you're willingto work for.
So, for those that don't know,when I first started out of the
Army, I didn't have a job 2017,I went six months without work.
They have my mother-in-law,with my wife and five kids.
So for all those that are justgetting in thinking, oh, it's

(32:59):
going to be easy Homie, I hadmore letters after my name than
a damn alphabet.
Don't think it's going to beeasy.
I don't care who you are.
I spent six to eight months outof work.
I finally got a job paying$60,000-some dollars a year.
The reason I got a raise andthe reason I got a new job was

(33:22):
because I was willing to put inthe effort and show that I am
able and willing to learn, notbecause I knew the software that
I was going to be working on.
I was a SIM.
Engineer was my second job.
I was an engineer, but I showedthe ability and willingness to
learn.
So, regardless of your age, Idon't care what it is you can go

(33:47):
up to any good, good hiringmanager right now.
That is looking for people andsaying I'm in a boot camp, or
I'm doing this, or I'm doingthat, or I'm putting all this
out there and they will hire you.
But we hope so, it doesn'tmatter.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
No, I don't believe it does either, and people that
look at age as a whole back arefucking themselves.
Man, look at the experiencethat comes with it.
How much stuff have you beenthrough as opposed to a
23-year-old just out of college?
How many lessons have youlearned that that 23-year-old

(34:27):
has not?

Speaker 1 (34:28):
And so I learned not to shut down an MSSPSim and
reboot it without notifyingpeople.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Well, it's a technique used by some, not by
others.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
I, literally I've done that.
So for all those that think youcan't make mistakes, I kid you,
not working for an MSSP, I shutdown our multi-tenant SIM and
rebooted it and that shit takeslike a half hour to 45 minutes
to reboot and come back up.
So yeah, that shit has happened.

(35:06):
We all make mistakes, but again, it comes down to the
willingness to learn the tribalknowledge, the ability to build
upon it.
Cody, you're right in there inthe thick of it.
Man, you're going through this,you're showing your ability and
your willingness to learn, andthat is what is vital.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
Absolutely.
I mean.
So everybody's gonna have allthe ad-aboys.
You can have all the ad-boys inthe world.
There's that one all fuck.
That everybody's gonna rememberand it's your willingness to
grow past that and to pickyourself up and show them.
Yep, I fucked up, but guesswhat happened?
I'd learned.

(35:47):
Yep, what occurred, learningoccurred.
That's what happened.
If you can learn from yourmistakes and show your
advancement from that, you'regonna freaking rock and roll
buddy.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
That is the biggest thing, right when you look at us
as humanity.
Can you learn from yourmistakes or are you gonna let
them haunt you?
Yeah, I learn.
I preach every day, every video.
Everything I do is all aboutlearning, all about growing.
Whether in this industry oroutside of it, it does not

(36:22):
matter.
Everything that happens is alearning experience.
I learned from my kids, Ilearned from you.
I learned from Andrea.
I learned from Juanalwa.
I learned from Space Tacos yougot her name right.
I try.
I learned from Avant.
I learned from everybodyBecause, look, I've been in this

(36:45):
industry 15 plus years, goingon 20 years.
It does not matter how old youare, how young you are or what
you're doing, you can learn fromeverybody.
Those with age have wisdom andexperience from other industries
, other jobs, other capabilitiesthat they bring to the table.

(37:06):
If you cannot learn, if youshow me that you're not willing
to learn, I got no time for you.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
Absolutely.
I caveat off of that.
Oh my God, did I just saycaveat.
Can you back up?
I'm going back in, I do.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
You're getting younger.
Now You're getting younger,let's go with it.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
If I say but who?
Oh shit, there it is no, no, no.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
If you say captor no captor, I'm off to cut you off.
Don't ever say that that'll cutyou off.
I will kill you from the street.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
No, the captor in the truck, on the freaking
dashboard.
That's where they are, that'swhere they sit until I get in
and have to protect my fuckingeyes, no man.
But so to come off of that iswillingness to learn,
willingness to freaking advanceyourself.
But here's something that a lotof people right now I'm finding

(38:05):
don't have is the ability tohave God damn fun.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
If you cannot sit there and have fun in the
workplace and I don't care whoyou are, if you're going to get
offended, you know something.
Switch the channel, findsomething else.
Don't submit me to fucking HR.
I don't give a shit.
There's some in HR, I don'tcare, it's who I am.
I'm gonna have fun and I'mgonna try to make jokes.
I'm gonna try to turn thislearning opportunity.

(38:35):
I try every day in class.
I'm trying to cut up and I'mtrying to freaking, make stuff
funny, because when you'relaughing you're enjoying it.
If you're just sitting therewatching a fucking lecture with
some dude with his arms over thepodium.
Oh, chapter seven, dash one Sayit.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
Amanda knows all about that right now.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Fuck that.
Fuck that.
Have fun with it, man.
If you're having fun, you'relearning.
If you're having fun, you'remore engaged and you're gonna
freaking do better than ifyou're just fucking sitting
there listening like a stump ona log.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
And and, and that's the thing is, if you, if you
know how to enjoy yourself, ifyou know how to make jokes and
we do this at work, where Whoopsthankfully that was, yeah,
where I work now we don't go totime I literally get on my
boss's case All the time.

(39:33):
Bosses, my bosses, bosses.
But but I do, I get on his caseall the time.
A because it's fun and bebecause it makes work enjoyable.
When you and your boss can, youknow, joke with each other and

(39:54):
cut up.
And you know, I got a seniorengineer.
He's not mine, he belongs to mycounterpart, he is, he is my
counterparts employee.
But he'll show up on video witha sleeveless shirt on and I'm
like man, now you got make melook bad.
I got to go find a shirt that Ican actually wear like.
So these things is just allabout having fun.

(40:16):
It's all about enjoying yourjob and who you work with, and
if you do that, if you cannotMake jokes, if you cannot just
have fun, then you're gonna hateyour life and I can't live like
that.
I never could.
And so I love everything aboutwhen I work, I love everything

(40:39):
about who I work with, becausewe can do that.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
My, there's a time and place for everything there
really is.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
you don't get on a client call in a sleeveless
shirt.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
Well, you can, it's just not approved.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
I mean I'll get on wearing this, don't get a twist
that I will promote the shit outof myself.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
I don't mind so my mind just ship yesterday.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
I don't.
So so, alright, for those thatdon't know, I have a drop ship
company.
I go through Printful, all mymerchandise goes through there,
but sometimes it takes a littlebit longer.
So if you want it, you got toorder it about a week in advance
.
If you're gonna be on the showjust saying, sometimes,

(41:26):
sometimes more, it reallydepends.
But otherwise, look it's, it's.
It is one of those things.
Like you just got to have funwith your career.
If you're not having fun,you're gonna be miserable.
And this goes into the aspectof everything I talk about is,
if you hate your job man orwoman, it doesn't matter you're

(41:47):
gonna take that shit home withyou.
Which means now, either you'regonna be alone and miserable or
you're gonna be married and makeyour spouse miserable and your
kids miserable and everybodyelse miserable.
Oh, yeah everybody's gonna bemiserable around you.
Don't take a show.
It is one of those things whereyou have to enjoy what you do

(42:08):
and who you work with.
I have made it a Mission toalways enjoy who I work with,
the job it is what it is.
And look, if you're looking forsleeveless, I go shirtless on
tiktok almost every day.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
Just say have a little decent sir.
No, I don't have none.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
I enjoy the dad in the beer belly, and is it keg?

Speaker 2 (42:34):
I can't get it.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
The beer belly and is it keg?
A keg is stronger than a sixpack.
I stand by that.
That's why it's called a cakethrow in a stylish under games
and not a six pack throw exactly, exactly, yeah so so I stand by
this, but you gotta enjoy whatyou work, you gotta enjoy
everything about it, and so,regardless your age, regardless

(43:01):
of how you got there, enjoy it,love it, live it up.
Oh, absolutely so, cody.
I got a question for you okaywe are at.
We got 15 minutes.
I thought we were yeah, we do.
We're not we got time, homie,we're gonna run this on we got
as long as you want.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
This is your show remember.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
This is true, this is true.
So if you were looking at itfrom a perspective of age and
I'm gonna bring you up solo I'mgonna let you take over to show
for a little bit.
Holy shit do you think your agehas or will have any effect on
your schooling or careerprospects?

Speaker 2 (43:42):
Schooling prospects?
Schooling prospects absolutelynot.
Schools don't give a shit howold you are.
All they want is money, right?
So they don't care, they'regonna take your money regardless
.
It's what you do in that schoolthat makes you.
It doesn't matter about yourage, it doesn't matter about how

(44:03):
much money you got.
You can be again a billionaireand have all the money in the
world, and to shitty the course.
The school's still gonnafucking take you.
You can have no money and beworking 17 jobs.
The school's still gonna takeyou.
I Employment I think age doeshave display wrong in the

(44:27):
employment industry, justbecause people For one thing I
don't know I'm not, I'm not ahealth insurance person, but
maybe your HR health insurancerisk assessment dude is like
that's some of bitches 900 yearsold and Needs to take a break.
I don't know if he can sit atthe computer and not get

(44:49):
electrocuted.
The other side is I meanseriously, but they are gonna
look at your age.
I really believe that they'regonna look at your age and
they're gonna make judgmentsabout you.
I've had judges made about meabout my age I didn't get the
job well, and fabricatingBecause my age.

(45:09):
In fact, I was passed upnumerous times because of my age
and my experience level.
But I'll tell you what I hadthe passion and I would freaking
roll around in the dirt betterthan anybody, and my Wills were
better than half the employeesin the goddamn business.
So get out there and do whatyou're passionate about,

(45:31):
regardless of what it is and howold you are.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
I Love that.
I absolutely love that, becausehere's the thing and here's
where I think ageism startedcoming into play.
So I Will hire anybody.
If you're just breaking injunior, mid tier, senior I don't
care about your age.

(45:54):
If you're breaking in, you wantto make money, you want to also
do something you love.
Right, if I see the ability tolearn, if I see you're a senior
band that feel 30 years, I don'tcare how old you are, you're
gonna be here, you're gonna makea difference.
But with that and With what isgoing on, I think this is where
ageism Really took effect andreally made a name.

(46:14):
It for itself is theblue-collar industry, because as
you get older and your body,your body breaks down, you can
no longer was that a beerdelivery?
Was that what?

Speaker 2 (46:28):
a beer delivery.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
No, it was.
It was a play cake from my kid.
I got a beer down below me.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
I got a whole.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
I got a whole fridge below me.
I don't have to get a beerdelivery down here, but I do.
I think I think blue-collar iswhere ageism comes into play
more often than cybersecurityand IT, because I think in
blue-collar they look at thebody and look at the, the
breakdown of the the human bodyand Versus and an IT and cyber

(47:01):
security.
You don't have to worry aboutthat as much Now.
You got to worry about medicalappointments.
Don't get me, don't get ittwisted.
At 36 years old, I haveappointments with my
Psychologists and my doctors andeverything else on a regular
basis.
Being from the military, mybody is broken.
So, yes, I deal with that, butI don't think it comes into play

(47:22):
as much because you're sittingin a chair your right, maybe a
half hour to an hour or whatever, but you're sitting there.
You're not gonna get spent aslong as, mentally, you're able
to do the job now, like that setin different story.
But as far as the ability to dothe job, if you're continuously

(47:45):
learning, if you're gettingCertifications, if you're
furthering your education, ifyou're sitting here and putting
up articles like yo, I just readthis and this is the hot shit.
Y'all need to look at this.
I'm looking at you and I'mgoing home and you, please,
teach me, please.
I'm 37 years old.
Well, the fucking teach me.
Let me know what I need to do.
Like absolutely.

(48:06):
That's how I look at it, andthere's a lot more people coming
out with that mindset.
Of age doesn't matter, but Isee it more in IT and cyber
versus other industries right,your rights, the I fucking
welding fabrication man, it willtake it out of you.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
But you also have to realize I think it's in both
industries that you have theold-timers that are holding on
to the secrets, yes, and theywill not give them up because
they're afraid You're gonna taketheir job.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
That's the one I could be having.
Yeah, I agree, I see that evenin my industry with directors
and VPs and and and C levelexecs.
People are so afraid you'regonna take their position and
their money and what they'regoing for.
They won't train you, theywon't teach you, they won't do
this.
That in the third.
But here's my caveat to thatand I'm gonna give you a good

(49:09):
one.
This is why your network is soimportant, because when you
network, when you actually andpeople hate that hate to do it
but if you make friends withyour boss and their boss then
when they move on or they moveup guess what they're doing
they're bringing you up withthem.
They're not afraid to give youthat knowledge, you're not

(49:32):
afraid to help you along becausethey're looking to move up.
So if they're gonna move up,they're gonna take the next
person in line.
That's like you know.
I know this person.
They're good people.
They could do their job, theycan do their shit.
They're coming up with me andso they're gonna bring them up
with them now on that end.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
You've got to get those companies.
So I challenge right now, Ichallenge everybody that's
listening and anybody at thispoint Go on the fucking, indeed,
go on to these job searchboards.
Find me an entry level job thatrequires less.
Then a freaking bachelor'sdegree in three years of

(50:11):
experience.
Yeah, good luck.
Because I swear to God,everything I'm looking at as
minimum frigging requirements abachelor's degree and a minimum
three years of experience ofdealing with Penetration,
testing, dealing with IT, healthdesk.
Three years of experience inwhatever field you're going into

(50:32):
, plus probably other you knowfor other certifications.
So I do.
Certifications are fuckingexpensive if I wasn't in this
course that.
So I get four tokens forfucking certifications.
One of them I have to take, asecurity plus.
Okay, that's just something Ihave to take in order for the
course.

(50:52):
Doesn't matter if I pass orfail.
Okay, if I fail it, I can takewhatever courses off.
Three tow three certificates,but they will pay for three
different tests in divergence inthis course For you to get
certified for certificationtests.
I already knocked out sec.
Plus, I'm taking Fuckingpentest in less than a month.

(51:15):
Yeah, a couple weeks.
And what happens if I fail it?
I still got two left, I canretake it.
I can go back to fucking cloud,I can go to networking, I can
go to Linux, I can go wherever Iwant within six months of
graduating.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
Let's go, dude and that's huge, and I'm gonna get
into Jack's comment, ourquestion here in a second.
Which, fyi, as you would loveto donate to the cause Please?
There are super tests that areavailable Also on all my videos.
You can tip and you can do a lotof fun shit and I'm sure now,
which I don't have anythingother than thank you, and I will

(51:52):
announce the fact that you're asubscriber in every episode.
But other than that, look whenyou're looking at you.
Test and testing.
Here's the biggest thing.
People let failure bother them.
As someone who has been in thefield for 15 plus going on 20
plus years, I have failed myCCNA three times.

(52:15):
I just recently failed a TANIUMcertification.
I have failed Microsoftcertifications.
Failure is not the end.
I am now a practice manager, Inow have management and I am now
having people under me, and Ihave failed certifications.
I have failed in my careerfield.
I have failed in a lot ofthings.
Just because you failedsomething, take off that ED.

(52:40):
Fail means first attempt inlearning.
You are able to accomplish it.
You are able to do it.
It just takes a little bit moreeffort, like I said you see an
age with me four tries TANIUM.
I'll study it some more and getit on my second try when I
decide to reschedule it.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
This is where the ageism comes into play.
You have it with age comesfailure.
How many things have you failedin as a 23 year old when you're
able to kick your freakingheels in and keep going?
No man, when I was 23 and Ifailed in something, it hit me
hard.
I'm 47.
I failed in something.

(53:20):
I'm like, well, going to worktomorrow, but I'm going to do it
again.
I found it winning the lottery.
Yeah, fuck off, I'm fuckingdoing it.
Yeah, don't fucking get it.
Who gives a shit?
It's the dude in the lockerroom.
When you get down to the gymand he's sitting there naked

(53:40):
doing the cat and Morgan stance,wiping his junk and talking to
you, you're like, well, I failed.
That fucking locker roometiquette Got to go.
You just fucking get dressed.
You move out, change thefucking channel.
Who gives a shit?
What just happened?
Move on and fucking go on withyour life and improve yourself.

(54:00):
Now you don't take as long inthe fucking shower.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
All right, I got two questions here and I'm going to
touch on Andrea's here in asecond, but the first one comes
from Jack, because it came froma lot earlier.
Do you feel that the bootcampyou're taking now is preparing
you well for a pen testing job,because, as we all know, pen
testing is very heavy in reportwriting.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (54:22):
actually helping you with that.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
I can't say yes or no at this point.
I'm in the fucking first week.
We have just finished the firstweek and this first week of pen
testing course has been a shortweek because of the fucking
holiday.
We honestly did get starteduntil Wednesday.
I can't say that this pen testbootcamp has improved me at all.

(54:46):
I know how to log into GNS3.
I got a VPN set up and I gotsome machines I can hack this
weekend.
The course provides you aweekend, 24 hours, seven days a
week.
You can log into this recordVPN and go attack machines, or
you can just do it during theweek while you're at school.

(55:07):
So it's an extra time If thecourse provides you with that.
Awesome, because I'm notsleeping tonight, I'm telling
you what I'm going to get about37 fucking 5 hour energies and I
don't know another seven oreight pack of beer and I'm going
to go hack some shit and learnhow to do it.

(55:28):
I haven't busted into my firstmachine yet, but I'll be
goddamned if I don't fuckingwant to.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
I will say this when you do it, let me know, because
I love seeing people's successes, so I want to see on LinkedIn,
on Instagram, whatever you're on.
I want to know when it happens,because I am, a going to
promote the shit out of it and,b I want to congratulate you

(55:57):
because that is something thatwhen you pound your first box,
it stills your beating heart.
You're just looking at it goingoh yes.

Speaker 2 (56:09):
I tried so many things just in this frigging
afternoon.
Once we got access to it I waslike, okay, do this, do this
fail, goddammit.
Do this, do this fail, fuck.
Do this?
Do this?
Son of a bitch?
I got to go back to work, andso you go back to work and go do
your shit.
Work is calling dammit.
Yeah, you got to touch thisbeat by your door and you're

(56:30):
like goddammit.
And then you have a man in thecountry report writing.
This thing, the course that I'min right now, or Jack, this
course that I am right now,report writing is huge.
So we have some PSLs andbasically security labs,

(56:51):
penetration security labs.
We go hack boxes I mean virtualnetwork on GNS3, we go hack
these things and there has to.
I haven't counted them,honestly, but there is fucking
about a dozen of them, differentfucking boxes to go hack and to

(57:11):
go in and get your stuff andtry to find these flags and try
to find these vulnerabilitiesand try to find all these things
and you write a report on eachone that you do.
This is part of the coursecontent.
It's not just that.
Do you want to?
No, it's a part of the coursecontent.
What did you find in thisnetwork?
What did you find per machine?

(57:32):
Are you right?
It could be a 15 page reportand we just got this discussion.
We got a little template today.
They downloaded them and we gotexamples of what stuff should
look like, what really good onesare and what marginal ones are.
You know what to include, whatnot to include, and again, it's

(57:53):
the course content.
I can't tell you, man, if you gointo XYZ fucking Pintest course
, you're going to get this.
I can't say that you're goingto go into anything and get this
.
You're not going to know untilyou get into it and you've
already paid the money,unfortunately.
What I am going to say is doyour research and if you need

(58:15):
help with reports, the more I gointo it.
Dude, hit me up on LinkedIn,man, I'll give you what I know.
I will help anybody in thischat or anybody after it reads
this shit.
I'll give them anything I gotthat I've learned and my lessons
learned.
I'll give it to you.
I don't give a shit.

(58:36):
Compgn can fucking flag me.
Fuck you guys.
I don't care.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
And that's the biggest thing.
A and this is one of thereasons I wanted you on here,
cody, is because I know you'rewilling to share your
information.
I know you're willing to go towork for people, and one of the
biggest things to me is you arewilling to put that information
out there.

(59:01):
Pintesting, as everybody knowsor should know.
Look, everybody looks atpentesting and hacking as always
hot and sexy and everybodyshould do it.
No, no, no.
The majority of your job isreport writing and growing on
hack the box.
It's like a fucking policeofficer.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
Cops spend the majority of their time fucking
writing reports.
Everybody's like oh, they'realways writing tickets, oh,
they're pulling me over.
No, motherfucker, 80% of thattime is writing reports.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
That's a lot of your jobs that seem sexy are report
writing.
They don't see the back end,and so that is a huge problem.
Is everybody's like, oh, I'mgoing to get into this?
Then they get into it andthey're like I'm bored, oh, I
need to go work somewhere else,I need to go do something like
this.
And so it's a very importanttopic to talk about because of

(59:52):
that fact of report writing andsoft skills and things like that
are so important, becausehere's the other part of pen
testing that people don'tunderstand If you cannot explain
to a client how to secure theirsystems from the shit you did,

(01:00:14):
you are worthless and it's notonly worthless.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
And it's not just explaining to them, it's
explaining to them in theirlanguage.
Yes, you have to translate that, and sometimes it's downgrading
your language.
It's marine.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
It is marine level writing you need to do Right now
to a cran eater.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Yeah, yeah.
But, buddy, I'll tell you whatIf you don't like report writing
, if you're in a pen test roleI've never been in one, but I
believe there's a team that'scalled a red team, ah, which
means there's more than one.
Anyway, there might be a dudethat's really good at fucking

(01:01:01):
report writing and maybe that'sall he does.
So don't get on that cat forjust fucking sitting back and
watching you guys do the workand getting a report.
This is like the breakfast club.
The dude wrote the report forthe breakfast club and didn't do
much.
He was a geek.
But, man, that last report wasreally good, and Molly Ringwald

(01:01:22):
and the freaking Stoner dudethey can walk off.

Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
Sweden's Elf and Amanda says it here See, I'll do
the thing.
Talk to a client if someoneelse writes the report.
Exactly, Report writing.
This is why I got intomanagement.
Too many people were asking meto write reports and emails and
everything else.
Screw that, I'm just going togo motivate people.
I'm out.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
Yeah, nobody likes report writing buddy, nobody
likes it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
You can't say nobody.
There are people out there thatlove it.
They absolutely love it.
It isn't me, but there arepeople.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
But I do have.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
So we are at the top of the hour, I do have to get
Andrea's question up here.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Come on, Andrea, what you got.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
So what is your take on reverse ageism?
And I think what she needs isthey want people that are older
with experience, versus thoseyounger coming out of college.
So, in today's workforce,what's your view on this?

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
All right.
So, coming into, young, comingin, I'm 23 and I got all the
heat.
What you need to provide toyour employer or the guy you
want to work with, I say guy,the company you want to work
with, express that learninginitiative.

(01:02:45):
And I'm not just talking aboutI want to learn.
I am good at learning.
Blah, blah, beep, boop, boop.
Who gives a fucking robot?
No, show me something.
If you're 20 fucking years oldand you want to prove to the
employer that you're going tolearn, show that son of a bitch

(01:03:06):
what you have done.
Show him that you've maderubber ducky, that every time
you click the right mouse buttonit plays fucking the Dukes of
Hazard theme.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
That would be great.
You know something?
I got a rubber duck.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
Yeah, I didn't do that, absolutely, man.
Yeah, show them that you made aphishing email, that every time
somebody clicks on theunsubscribe button, that takes
you to the fucking link thatclicks all your fucking data.

Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
It's making you to a porn site.
Don't lie.
That's what it's making you to.
It's making you to a porn siteand probably the porn you never
want to see Grandma'sLoveBudcom.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
But no, seriously, buddy, Andrea, it's fucking.
Show them what you can do,Because I tell you what, if I
saw a 20-year-old coming into myshop, I don't want to fucking
welding fabrication shop withthe CNC machine shop attached to
it.
I hire fucking these people.

(01:04:12):
Well, I don't hire them becauseright now we're not looking to
hire.
Anyway, I've seen these peoplecome through.
But show me what you've done.
If you're a button pusher, Ican get, if I can train monkey
to fucking do that and you'reasking for fucking $30 an hour.
I can get a trained monkey todo it for less, Because it don't

(01:04:34):
take much of button push.
But if you could show me thatyou've learned G&N code to
fucking start programming yourown shit, if you can show me the
graphics, if you can show meyour freaking 3D CAD cam online
and do it, Because that's goingto make you stand out, that's
going to make you head shouldersEven above the 35-year-old,

(01:05:01):
40-year-old.
That's been doing it for 40years over time.
But it's going to fucking takeso much more to fucking.
The employer is going to lookat that way more than you just
coming in and saying I wentthrough a course in college.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
I'm not going to be able to get it.
Don't get it.
That's a huge thing, right?
So when I look at reverseageism, and when I think about
it, I look at this and I'm allLogan, I'm trying to fucking
preach buddy and I'm sorrycomments and I think about it in

(01:05:42):
such a way that if you'rewilling to put in the work, if
you're willing to put in theeffort, let me explain.
Yeah, hit it.
At 14 years old I was gettinghit by punters on AOL.
What?

Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
the fuck are you talking about?
I didn't understand what, thatwas Okay.
I don't understand what it isnow.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
It was a denial service that kicked you off your
dial-up.
Oh okay, that's what it was,those that understood the wee,
wee ooh boo boo boo, boo boo,boo, boo, boo, boo, boo, boo,
boo, boo, boo, boo, boo boo boo,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just used the cap on me, yeahso.
So I got hit with a punterthat's what it was called at the

(01:06:27):
time on AmeriCorps Online.
My buddy used to do it to meall the time on one of the drop
kick-ups, but it was a denialservice that kicked you off the
Internet.
I should have done moreresearch than I did not.
I knew IT right I don'tremember the year so I did all
this and then I got into IT.

(01:06:51):
I fixed computers, I knewoperating systems, I knew
networking, I knew all thisother stuff.
I didn't know cybersecurity.
I didn't break into my.
I didn't do anything in termsof cybersecurity until I broke
into my first wireless networkBack in 2005, maybe, so I

(01:07:12):
couldn't use cybersecurity until2022.
So yes, you're going.
For me it was uh, what was it?
It was B G N I think we're outor B, g and A For wireless

(01:07:34):
networks.
Wep was still the primarysecurity mechanism.
I broke into that and then Ibroke into a hospital.
I didn't do nothing, Iliterally just pulled down their
card and was like oh shit, Ican get to your network yeah

(01:07:55):
fuck.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
What did I just?

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
do Right.
What do I do with this?
Now I can break in.
The first time I fired up aWi-Fi pineapple I frankly pulled
in fucking networks.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
I was not expecting.
I'm like, oh zipline.
Oh here's all these fuckinginternet providers, oh here's
all these people like thenetworks around me.
I'm like son of a bitch.
I got to find the right IP andI was trying to break into a box
that I did on Voltub to try tofreaking crack into and I'm like
shit, which IP address myselfpost to break into?

(01:08:29):
I need to stop until I find outwhat I'm doing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
And that was the thing.
I then didn't know exactly whatI was doing.
I knew, but I didn't know.
I didn't look up the laws, Ididn't understand what was
exactly going on.
I just knew if I connected toit.
After the fact I was probablygetting in trouble.

Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
So I didn't want to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
I was like I cracked it, I'm going to let you go,
yeah.
At the same time, I did myresearch.
I understood, I began tounderstand more about the
situation and aboutcybersecurity.
Cybersecurity is so vast afield that I didn't get into the

(01:09:15):
blue team side until I wentinto the army, until they said,
hey, we're going to teach youall this offensive shit, but
it's so you can understand thevlogs and the things that you're
looking at and the things thatyou should be investigating and
all this other stuff.
Without that, I would neverunderstood how to not get caught

(01:09:37):
.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
Oh, absolutely.
I think that that is animportant aspect of your
baseline.
You don't, if you want to gointo red team and you want to
start penetration testing, and Ithink if you want to start
going in and cracking people,you have to understand the
defenses, but you also have tounderstand okay, I'm going to

(01:09:58):
bring out the term GRC, and theGRC thing has all of a sudden
popped up in my life.
I was a fucking supply guy man.
I did fucking regulations, Idid hazmat, I did physical
security.
I did fucking risk assessmentsin Afghanistan.

(01:10:18):
I had 3,000 soldiers underneathme, 17 different units that I
had to go out with a fuckingclipboard for each unit and
assess the risk assessment as afucking E6, and fucking GRC,

(01:10:39):
what do you got?
Come on, buddy, what you got?
I had fucking 3,000 soldiers,17 units, the physical security,
driver security, all thefucking things.
What could GRC throw at me?
Bring it, I got it.
And this is another thing withageism is a resume won't show

(01:11:02):
that experience unless youspecifically put it in there,
and that's the big thing.

Speaker 1 (01:11:10):
So here's the thing, cody, and once again I'm going
to send you solo, because I wantyou to explain to everybody.
I want you to give your wordsof wisdom, I want you to give
your advice to all thosebreaking in, trying to break in,
or even veterans who think theyknow their shit but really
don't know their shit.
I want you to break down asmuch as possible your words of

(01:11:31):
advice for everybody in, ortrying to get in, to
cybersecurity.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
Absolutely All right, guys.
You don't know shit.
You never will.
You will all.
If you think you know it, youdon't fucking.
There's always room to improve.
There's always room to fuckinglearn.
Get in there, learn it, adapt,learn it again, think before you

(01:12:02):
speak.
Go back and learn it again andfucking continue on.
Man, if you're a militaryveteran, you think you've been
there and done that shit.
Man, there's always somebodythat's bigger, better, faster,
stronger than you.
There's always someone outthere that is that $6 million
man.
Fuck that guy.

(01:12:25):
You're never going to beat him,but you know what you can do.
You work towards it.
You can get towards that andyou can work towards beating
them.
And even though you're nevergoing to beat him, you can work
towards it.
And the fucking more that youwork towards bettering yourself

(01:12:49):
through education and continuousfucking learning, then you're
only doing credit to yourself.
Man, if you sit there and thinkthat you've got everything,
you're laying on a fuckingbarcalaureate with blanking over
your legs and you just fuckingwriting it.
You're hurting yourself.

(01:13:10):
Somebody's going to take yourfucking job and all of a sudden
you're going to be in the middleof a movie begging for Biden to
fucking forgive your fuckingstudents.
It's what it is.

Speaker 1 (01:13:23):
Hey, hey, I want my student loans forgiven because
I'm too lazy to pay back.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
Well, thank you, jesus, fucking.
Don't eat the meatballs andforgive your student loans.
That's what it is, buddy.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
I wish it worked that way.
I really do, but it don't.
And to be real and to be honestlook, I want to be honest with
everything you said.
You have a chance to eitherearn it and work for it and be
worth something, or to be lazy,sit back and blame everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:13:56):
And at this point, those are your options.
You can either go out there,earn everything you get and
deserve it, or you can sit backand wait for a handout.
Me personally, and I know for afact that all of my warriors
they're not looking for ahandout, they're earning it.
They're putting in the work toeducate themselves.

(01:14:18):
They're putting in the work toget on LinkedIn.
They're putting in the work todo everything Don't get it man,
why I have my community?
because no one can do it.
But you Effort and it iscorrect.
Only you can make the decisionsof how your life is going to go
.
Nobody else, no one, candictate what you're going to do

(01:14:41):
in life.
But you, you're either going towork for it and earn it or
guess what?
No one is going to hire you.
No one is going to actuallylook at you and be like, oh yeah
, they're worth something, theydeserve it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
Go through your first interview and be asked how to
negotiate a network when you getpushed into the snot locker.
You're going to fucking changeyour attitude and try to fucking
actually learn what you'redoing.

Speaker 1 (01:15:13):
I have gotten turned down from so many jobs because I
didn't know what I was doing.
When I was getting out of themilitary I applied to Cisco
Talos.
They brought me in.
Talos is one of the mostrespected organizations in the
United States.
Maybe in the world Said hey, dothis.
No, I don't know what the fuckyou're talking about.

(01:15:38):
Bet you're not hotter.
I don't disagree.
You're right, I shouldn't be.
I shouldn't be working there.
I didn't know what I was doingat the time.
No, fuck you, you should beworking there.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):
No, you should be working there.
And the thing that they didn'tfucking see is the fucking
training that they could haveprovided you.
If they would have provided youwith fucking training and to
mold you into the position thatthey wanted you to be in, they
would have ROI faster off a yearskill set if they had trained
you than if they had reachedtraining another person.

Speaker 1 (01:16:16):
It was a senior position.
I couldn't, I couldn't batagainst it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
Then what?

Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
For me it did.
For me I understood, Iunderstand where you're coming
from, I understand your point ofview, but for me, at a senior
position, a senior role of some,of that needs to hit the ground
running.
I could not do that at thattime.
So for me, I understoodmentally of like you're right,
the questions they asked, theshit they felt they dealt with

(01:16:41):
on a daily basis.
I could not hit the groundrunning for them, I could not do
what they required.
So I respect the fact and thisis the thing is, you have to
respect what the company isdoing and what they're trying to
do and where they're going fromit.
And you are going to apply fora position and they say we want

(01:17:04):
a junior or we want a mid tier,and you go in there and say, hey
, I've done all this, I havethis experience.
And I'm talking labs, I'mtalking personal experience, not
enterprise experience, personalexperience.
This is what I've done.
I am going to look at it andI'm going to bring you in Now if

(01:17:31):
you tell me oh, I went throughand I got a degree in a
certification.
Okay, so what have you donesince?
Not shit, okay.
Then why the fuck do I care?
Why do I care?
Because guess what?
I've got those certifications.
I know what they teach and Iknow what they bring to the
table.
I've got a degree in computerinformation systems.
I know networking.

(01:17:51):
What can you tell me that'sgonna prove you have the ability
to keep learning and grow andunderstanding.
I don't give a damn, I carewhat you've done to prove
yourself.
And that's LinkedIn, that'sAndrea, that's what matters.

Speaker 2 (01:18:25):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
Why do I hire you?

Speaker 2 (01:18:27):
Well, okay so it's not only fucking LinkedIn.
Okay, you have to look at.
Yeah, okay so Twitter, fuckingget the that damn fucking
Instagram.
Okay so my Instagram.
I don't post shit about digitalfucking security or
cybersecurity or any fuckingthing.
What's Instagram to me?
It's me.
That's what Instagram is.

(01:18:50):
Do I go out and go shoot?
I'm not gonna go out and do itanymore.
I'm not gonna go out and do itanymore.
Exactly what LinkedIn is.
That's my professional resume.
Yes, but your professionalresume on LinkedIn needs to have
the jocularity of you.
When a company comes in tofucking hire you, they're not

(01:19:12):
hiring your skillset only,they're hiring you.
And if you have a fuckingrobotic, fucking beep, beep,
boop, boop, this is all I do allfucking day.
This is my life.
Man, I'll tell you what, if Ihad somebody that had some dogs,
or somebody that had cats, orsomebody that showed a goddamn

(01:19:35):
boat, or skiing, or snowboarding, snow shoeing or doing, the
worst fucking thing I think theycould ever do is running, fuck
marathons.
Anyway, I just showed themdoing that.
They're a fucking human being.

Speaker 1 (01:19:52):
They're a goddamn human being.
That's the biggest thing, it'dbe a human, don't be a robot.

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
You have Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):
This is why I do this show, because here's the thing
You're gonna put this out tosomebody, you're gonna put it on
your resume, you're gonna putit on your LinkedIn profile,
you're gonna put it on Twitter.
You're gonna put it all theseother places.
You are all human.
For anybody who does not seethat, for anybody who doesn't
realize that, guess what,they're not worth your time.

(01:20:19):
Me personally, I will hireanybody as soon as I get jobs if
they're willing to putthemselves out there and be
human.
Oh, I gotta be in a suit andtie and be professional and I
gotta do all these things.
No, I don't give a fuck aboutthat.
I give a fuck and I give a damnabout who you are as a human
being.
What's your family?

(01:20:40):
Do you have dogs?
What are your hobbies?
Absolutely, outside ofcybersecurity.
Because, guess what?
If you wanna make it in thisindustry, if you wanna make it
in this world, you have to havesomething about you other than
your job, absolutely.
If you do not, you are gonnaget burned out and you're gonna
be worthless to me.

Speaker 2 (01:20:59):
Yeah, you gotta do a walk with me about that shit,
because, holy fuck, it's bad Ifyou don't.
If you're just a fucking robot,okay.
So I've been going throughfucking Mr Robot.
This is how I spend my fuckingpersonal time.
Before bed, I watch an episodeof this and I go that
motherfucker.

(01:21:19):
Okay.
So there's some serious twistsand turns in that show.
I don't you ever watch that?
Yeah, you have, but, dude, justhaving an ability to relax and
decompress and have somethingelse to talk about other than
the business, you're gonna gofucking way farther in my world

(01:21:46):
than you will if you know moreabout it.
And something else is.

Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
You understand more about humanity.
And here's the thing incybersecurity, you gotta
understand how businesses think.
Businesses are about money.
Businesses are about makingbusiness.
Business is all aboutenablement.
How can I, as a cybersecurityprofessional, secure you and
make you money?
That's what matters.
So, look, I get it.

(01:22:10):
And I love OG Shaba wrong.
So on Twitch said no job for me.
Look, I don't even know who youare.
Homie, I love you for beinghere, but at the end of the day,
look, get a hobby outside ofcybersecurity.
Get off the computer, get offof your phone, get off of
everything.
Get a hobby, get somethingoutside of cybersecurity and IT,

(01:22:31):
solely because that willalleviate your mind and allow
you to perform better.
I'm not saying you shouldn't dohack the box.
I'm not saying you shouldn't dotry hack me.
I'm not saying you should learn.

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):
Oh, get out there and do it After hours.

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):
do it all, but find your time to do something
outside of this industry,because it opens up your mind to
other businesses and the realmsof businesses that you will
interact with on a daily basis.

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):
So have you ever tried Bandit?

Speaker 1 (01:23:06):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:23:07):
Oh my God, that thing is fucking frustrating, I have
to admit anyways, cody, I lovedhaving you here.

Speaker 1 (01:23:14):
It's been an amazing talk.
We are well over top of thehour.
Who gives a shit?
Do me a favor, take care, get ahold of me, everybody here.
Get a hold of me on LinkedInOnce again.
I do have subscriptions onYouTube.
Now I also have them on TikTok,if you wanna support me in the
descriptions all the way you cansupport me.
You wanna follow Cody?
All of his information is inthe description of the YouTube

(01:23:38):
video.

Speaker 2 (01:23:39):
Anything that he wants to ask, fucking ask me.

Speaker 1 (01:23:43):
Anything that he wants to ask me, fucking send it
.

Speaker 2 (01:23:46):
I will send you whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:23:47):
I have.

Speaker 2 (01:23:48):
Do it.

Speaker 1 (01:23:49):
Yeah, yeah, I'll send you whatever I got.
I love you all.
Take care, have a good one and,as always, I'll see you next
week on another amazing episodeof Security Happy Hour.

Speaker 2 (01:24:01):
Hell yeah, buddy, I'll see you next time.