Maintaining Mental Health in Cybersecurity: A Conversation with Tim Foot

Has a friend ever nudged you to try something completely new to you? Well, that’s exactly what happened to our guest today, Tim Foot. Once a massage therapist, a suggestion from his IT friend led him on a fascinating journey into the world of cybersecurity. Join us as we follow Tim's extraordinary career shift and how his potent intellect and insatiable curiosity helped him find his footing in the complex realm of cybersecurity. Listen as he recounts his numerous accomplishments, including his intriguing experience as a SOC analyst and his ventures into contract work with vulnerability assessments.

What if you could transform your career using your soft skills? That’s precisely what Tim did. Our conversation ventures into the trials and tribulations of transitioning into a cybersecurity career, emphasizing the importance of asking questions and grabbing new opportunities with both hands. Tim shared his ingenious strategy of harnessing his soft skills while leaning into the blue team. For those considering a purple team role, Tim’s insights prove to be nothing short of inspiring.

Towards the end of our talk, we take a moment to discuss something often underestimated - the mental health aspect of cybersecurity professionals. Despite the thrill of the field, establishing work-life boundaries and time off are critical to maintaining mental health. Hear Tim's thoughts on how to balance work and life, and the crucial need for networking within this ever-evolving industry. Whether you're an industry veteran or a green newbie, this episode is packed with practical advice and profound understanding of the cybersecurity landscape. So, tune in and get ready for an intellectual roller coaster ride with our guest, Tim Foot.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome back to another amazing episode of
Security Happy Hour.
I am your host, as always, theCyber Warrior, and we are back
in the studio here at CyberWarrior Studios after an amazing
episode we just had at NewJersey Cyber Fire Size.
So we're here to kick it off.
We're here to bring it to youonce again on another amazing
Friday episode on Freya's Day ofSecurity Happy Hour.

(00:24):
So if you stand by for just 10seconds, we'll be right back and
we're back, and if we listenreal close, there it is the

(00:45):
official kickoff Security HappyHour for the evening.
And with me my guest at thistime, tim Foot.
Tim, how are you doing?

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Good brother, how are you?

Speaker 1 (00:56):
You know I can't complain.
It's been a long week.
This is episode two of the week, so it's a little.
It's a little crazy.
All right, I've been runningaround all week doing a ton of
things, doing a bunch of content.
So you know, it is what it is.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
I wish I had a drink to join you.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
I'm all happy about that because I'm going to get a
break on Sunday.
Maybe, hopefully.
No wait, I'm going to be at SanCaccio, so probably not.
I don't know what's going to goon this weekend, but we'll play
it by ear.
Spectra's in bed, maybe.
Yeah, I might get that, I might.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Well, we said it live , so we'll see what happens.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
So yeah, so anyways, Tim, it's good to have you here.
I mean, we connected a littlewhile back.
You showed some interest andsaid you wanted to jump on and
you know me and you talked aboutit a little bit.
But, like I said, this show isfree form, we just have a
conversation, and so for me, thebiggest thing and one of the
biggest questions I always askis kind of what brought you into
cybersecurity and this kind ofrealm of you know, influence and

(01:57):
racking your brain and burnout?

Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, that's a lot.
Well, I mean, again, thanks forhaving me on.
I really appreciate that.
And so I guess I'm a bit of anatural, like I'm a lifelong
learner, so I'm always learningnew stuff.
So I've done a good number ofthings in my I'll call it a
short lifetime, but I'm justnaturally inquisitive and

(02:26):
everything else.
And so I have a really goodfriend who is in in IT and has
been not sure exactly what hedoes.
I know he's really smart anddoes a lot of stuff in IT Anyway
.
So he just actually pre COVIDand all that stuff, he kind of
him and I were havingconversations and I was looking
for some change.

(02:47):
I was doing massage therapy atthe time and I wanted something,
you know, maybe a little lessphysical, you know, in terms of
on my body, you know aging andeverything else, thinking.
You know, at some point youknow I need to kind of make
maybe a transition.
And he brought up you know that, you know that cybersecurity
was kind of an interestingavenue to look at and I started

(03:10):
poking my nose around, starteddoing a lot of study and I'd
always been into like a bit ofIT, kind of like the go to guy
in my small circle, I guess, offriends, family and friends for
helping out and that kind ofthing and whatever.
So I was always interested init but never looked at anything
specific and so it intrigued me.
You know, obviously, anythingwith security.

(03:31):
It was kind of like, yeah, thatsounds kind of interesting.
Obviously has something to dowith, you know, investigating
and looking into you knowwhatever.
And I said, you know, I'll lookinto that a little deeper,
because it was kind of it was arelatively new term to me, even
though you know I, you know Iknew a lot of the other stuff.
But it was kind of like, okay,well, that's, that's an
interesting avenue to look at.

(03:51):
So I just kind of starteddigging my nose in, you know, to
whatever I could get my handson in terms of learning and then
basically went and did the, theCompTIA Security Plus.
Basically everything I did waslike online courses, just kind
of did it on my own time, my owninitiative kind of thing.
So never too late to learn newstuff.

(04:12):
That's kind of my my go-tothing, right.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
So well, and you're not wrong about that.
There's a lot of people thatare, you know, transitioning
into cybersecurity later on intheir lives and that could be
for a multitude of reasons.
You know, like you said, whenyou're once your body starts to
go, once you know doing anythingmanual, being on your feet all
the time, things of that natureonce it takes hold, it makes it

(04:36):
very difficult to do a lot ofother things.
And being able to be able tostill work and provide for your
family or your life or yourselfor whatever you're doing, and
maintain a full-time job,cybersecurity and IT is a
lucrative career.
More so cybersecurity, justbecause a lot of it can be done
remote, whereas there arecertain IT jobs that still

(04:58):
require in-person or in theoffice type of workflow.
I know help desk just becauseof the way things are, and
having to go to some physicallocations requires some office
time on occasion.
So being here in cybersecurityis huge.
What would you say, beyond thelifelong learning?
Because let's be honest, thatif you're not a lifelong learner

(05:19):
, that it's going to be verydifficult for you to succeed in
cybersecurity.
What would you say?
Your biggest accomplishment hasbeen so far trying to.
You know, if I'm not mistaken,you're either a SOC analyst now,
or that's a previous role, oryou're kind of in that spirit.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yeah, I've kind of done a bit of the SOC analyst
role and I've done some contractwork as well for some local
companies with vulnerabilityassessments and those kind of
things as well.
But yeah, I guess it's reallymaking that, you know, just kind
of jumping both feet in, youknow, to basically immerse

(06:03):
myself in the world of makingthose connections in the
cybersecurity sector with youknow, whether it be on LinkedIn
or through other outlets, rightand getting involved in things
like the B-sides, conferencesand stuff and things that we
have.
It's making that.
I think you know that basicallytaking that leap of faith, I

(06:25):
guess, if you will, to just kindof go all in and, like I said,
right now, that's where I amright now, looking at the SOC
analyst role and, like I said,mostly doing contract stuff
right now and then hoping to gofurther with that.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yeah, definitely, and that's one of those things
right.
So I look at cybersecurity youcan actually accomplish without
taking the full head first dive,right, you can still work a
full-time job and get into it,but it takes time and it takes
longer.
Anything in life is going totake work and it's just a matter
of how you want to divvy thatwork out and your time and

(07:06):
things of that nature.
And so I look at it likebusiness.
You can start a businesstechnically while still working
a full-time job, but there'sgoing to be things that you miss
out on or things that are goingto take more time to do because
you can't go head first in.
And I know myself as someone youknow, with a wife and kids, I
can't quit my job to go dosomething else.

(07:28):
Like I still have to have thatincome because I got bills to
pay, whereas others may havesecondary income that allows
them to.
Okay, I can quit my job, gofull-on into this because I'm
still able to provide.
I mean, I may have to limitmyself, let's be honest, but I
can still provide and then gofrom there.
So it's always good to see whenpeople are able to do that.

(07:50):
I just know that's a strugglefor a lot of people because if
you don't have that incomecoming in it makes it hard to
like focus on what you got goingforward.
But we have two questions here.
The first one is definitely wayoff topic, but that's my girl
for you.
Are you a base player?

Speaker 2 (08:09):
I kind of dabble with base.
I'm actually mostly a singerand guitar player.
That's kind of my, that's mygo-to.
If there was a way to makemoney in this world being a
musician, I'd love to do that.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
But I mean, you can, it's just you can it's, it's
it's not as easy as it looks.
Independent artists out thereto do it, and they do it well,
they've become millionaires.
Yeah, it's true.
But we have another question.
This one's from my girl, mishawhat was your first
certification you earned whenyou switched careers?
And I know you said it a littlebit earlier Blu.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, it was, it was the CompTIA Security Plus.
That was my, that was the onewhen I, when I went again, I you
know I do a lot of researching.
So my research was, you know,for the first, to kind of, you
know, get in there, get yourfeet wet.
That seemed like a verygenerally accepted you know
throughout the industry, as faras an industry standard, that

(09:00):
the CompTIA Security Plus seemedto have a good reputation from
everything that I'd read andeverything, and you know, it
covered a lot of, you know, alot of bases for me.
Plus, I mean, like like all myother you know, study was like
you know, like Professor Messerand different things like that,
that I'd I'd kind of, you knowagain, a bit of a visual learner

(09:21):
to a certain degree.
So I watched a lot of videos,you know, did a lot of practice
labs and that kind of thing.
But yeah, it was, comptiaSecurity Plus was the first one
for me.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, and that was, honestly, that was my first
cybersecurity certificationmyself.
No, I got mine back in 08.
So it's been a little while andmine is still lifetime.
I have not converted it over tothe continuing education, so my
shit still works, but I'vegotten more since then.
But yeah, that was the firstcybersecurity one I had with me.

(09:52):
Oh, that's right.
All right, so, and we're goingto go up or else it'll cut you
off.
It is Misha's 40th birthdaytoday, one of my warriors, one
of my family members.
I love you, misha.
So here's to you.
Happy birthday, skoll, and havean amazing day.
I hope you've had an amazingday.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
I wish I had a drink in front of me.
I don't even know what happened.
I have Gatorade, is that?
How it works, that'll work Getaround all.
Definitely I should have.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
But but yeah, it's so it's everybody here in the chat
Happy birthday Bono.
Thank you, I'm going to go tothe next one.
Uh, uh, misha Adrian.
Uh, I know.
Andrea's in here, nice, um,jack's here, there's quite a few
.
Uh, william Bailey, areej, Idon't know, that's what that

(10:45):
one's on Twitch man.
There's always some weirdtwitching.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
We got seventeen people watching, so as of right
now, so beyond that allseventeen.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
good to have you all here, James.
Thanks for joining Um, but yeah, so ask me who is just getting
into the?
industry and a sock analystprobably has some answers for
you that may help you out goingforward in in your career as
well.
Um, but yeah, otherwise, youknow, being in this industry has

(11:16):
its challenges.
It has.
It has its ups and downs, right, it's ebb and flow and of
things that are really easy,things that are really hard, and
it's different for everybody.
What would you say is has beenthe industry and the field and
things of that nature,especially with your transition
from massage therapy intocybersecurity.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Uh, I think for me, the the one thing I've always
found, I guess, is the easything, is dealing with people,
because, regardless of whetheryou know, you can get crazy
technical on on the one handwith with a lot of the IT space
and whatever, but you know thethe skills that it takes to
actually be able to get eitherfrom whatever avenue of life

(11:59):
they're come from.
I mean, I've dealt with peoplefrom you know, from young, young
people to people who are inhigh levels of government and
whatever.
So I kind of find that part uheasy, uh in the sense of like
dealing like you know, liketalking to you, talking to new
people, like that's not uh, Imean, I mean, again, I've
performed in front of you knowhundreds of people, so it's not

(12:21):
like getting in front of peopleand talking to people and and
talking to people and it's adifficult thing.
I mean I don't mind askingquestions.
I don't mind asking questionsthat might sound stupid, you
know, because there's no stupidquestions and, um, you know,
really that's that's what ittakes and that's kind of always

(12:42):
where I've been comfortable inthat space you know, poking,
prodding, getting to know people, asking people questions, you
know, and again, just trying totake back from that what I can
to you know.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
I'm not going to be asking questions?
Yeah, definitely.
And you know, I look at it anda lot of people will say you
know, asking questions there's,there's no such thing as a
stupid question, and it's true,there really isn't, depending on
who you talk to.
Because and I don't mean by theperson you're asking question,
I mean the person you're askingit to because there are a lot of
people out there that if youask them certain questions,

(13:17):
we'll look down upon you and saythings.
So it makes it hard, and I'venoticed this through my time in
the military.
Through my time in the military, I've been asking myself where
people were afraid to askquestions because they didn't
want to look stupid.
Um, and it is because of youknow, there are certain
questions that will provide astigma of oh well, they don't

(13:38):
know anything, why are they here?
They're idiots.
They shouldn't be doing this Dada, da, da da.
Look, I gotta be honest.
When I was going for mymaster's degree for
cybersecurity, which I neverfinished Um, I literally taught
the class the intro to cyberclass out at the fire pit, and
the questions I heard werethings that you might be asking
stupid questions.
It was it's an intro class.

(13:58):
I'm gonna answer these.
I will help you with what isfirewall.
I will help you with what theprotection system do and things
of that nature.
Um, and, and it's because maybeyou just need to hear it a
different way.
Maybe someone told you what youknow HTTPS is, but you didn't
understand it.
From that perspective, you mayneed a different one.
So asking the question again,even after you've been certified

(14:19):
in certain areas it's not a badthing, Absolutely.
Are you?
Looking to stay on the blueteam side, or are you looking at
the red team?
Or are you looking at GRC, kindof what, what, what do you see
your future path?

Speaker 2 (14:37):
I, I like the blue team in, you know, and I guess
you know, probably initially too, I, you know, I, maybe I find
the blue team to be a littleless intimidating in terms of
you know, I, I guess I would sayI would say I would do pen
testing or something like thaton.

(14:58):
You know, I would find that tome, would require me to maybe
have a little bit more time withmy technical skills, um and so,
uh, initially I did look atsome things, even in in the,
like, the social socialengineering area, know where,
like I said, I, using kind ofthe soft skills that I already

(15:20):
had, and I would possibly liketo end up, if there's a way to
find a niche in there, uh, whereI can, you know, where I can
help in that area, because Imean, as we all know, there's.
You know, whatever happens,whether it's AI or all the crazy
stuff that's happening, peoplewill always be, you know, a
factor in, in security, and so,for me, being able to deal with

(15:45):
people, being comfortable withdealing with you know my niche
somewhere there within thatspace.
But you know, for now,definitely with the, with the
blue team for now, but, yeah,all the others too.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
So, so we got?
We got two things here, uh, thefirst is from my buddy, william
.
Um, I know he goes by the landshark on Twitch.
I don't know he's on boat, so,hey, I love him for it.
Be on every platform, I don'tcare.
Yeah, are you looking to going?

Speaker 2 (16:19):
into more of a purple team or something like that.
I'm looking to a certain degree.
I, like I said, I think thereare some areas that I, uh, I
definitely need to work on, uh,to kind of make that, you know,
transition more towards, youknow, purple and you know, and
again, you know, it's likeanything right If, if the doors

(16:39):
open and if the opportunitiespresent themselves, then you
know, I'm all for, you know,taking opportunities right and
uh, I think that's a big bychance.
So, you know, I kind, of likeyou know, if something comes up
that you know says, hey, youknow, I mean, this looks like
that would be.
You know, where I feel like I'mtransitioning to or where I'm

(17:01):
I'm feeling more comfortable toat the time, uh, I would
definitely be open to that forsure.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, and I think that's a big thing and I got
another comment down here fromJack Um pen testing done right
as purple within the reportingand that that's, that's when you
get into it and that's becauseyou have to have the ability to
do that.
You know things like that.
So, yeah, um, my, my take awayfrom that is you should always,
if you're blue team or red team,you should always understand

(17:28):
the opposite side and even lookat a high level, or or a basic
foundational level, of what youshould see from both aspects.
And the reason for that is isyou can't know how to break into
a system if you don't know thesecurity architecture behind it.
That's defending the system.
Yeah, so if you've never usedthe architecture, if you've
never used the EDR or a SIM toolor something like that, and

(17:52):
makes it very difficult.
And then from the oppositespectrum, you can't do blue team
if you've never broken intoanything and know what logs
it'll generate or anything likethat.
So it becomes a interestingdynamic if you're not cutting
both.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah Well, that's the thing.
I'm definitely studying all ofthem.
You know I'm as much as I canat that level where I am right
now, you know, just kind of, youknow, feeling, you know more
comfortable at this point with,you know with the blue team, but
, like I said, certainly open toand very interested and always

(18:28):
excited to learn, you know, newstuff and I'm always trying to
challenge myself to, you know,to increase my knowledge right
Definitely, and that's somethingwe should always be doing right
.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah, never, never give up the moment you quit
trying to learn and you know,definitely, really, yeah, so so
we got another question here onTwitch, or read XO.
I guess that's how you say it.
I could be wrong.
Thank you all for this space.
I have a question about what'sresponsibility and certificates

(19:02):
for a junior sock engineer.
I don't know if those exist,but if they do, I don't know
what, what, what?

Speaker 2 (19:09):
do you say?
I would say, I guess, like anexample, um, I mean, like I said
, I started studying things,even, like you know, doing the
network plus and understandingnetworks and TCP, ip and but as
far as certificates, yeah, Idon't know if there's one
specifically for, but I guess,again, the entry level for me in

(19:31):
terms of security was, you know, the CompTIA security plus, and
there are others out there.
I believe I Saka has um, can'tremember the name of it now, but
I don't know if it's uh, it's.
I don't think it's sockspecific, but again, it's uh, I
don't know if there are like asfar as sock specific

(19:51):
certifications.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
No, um, while there's there is security.
Blue dot team yeah, they have ablue team, level one, level two
and level two out.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
I don't know.
I think that's fairly new.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeah, fairly new.
Yeah, it's fairly new.
I don't know if they've comeout with all of them yet, um,
but I do know I was on theadvisory board for level one.
I know he was working on leveltwo and he's a great engineer,
but it's blue team, yeah.
So it could kind of at leastlend to that aspect of things.
Um, as far certifications go,but as far as anything other

(20:24):
than that, nothing that anindividual can afford comes to
mind.
Most of what I know may kind oflend to.
It would be more sands, whichrequires corporate payment,
unless you just happen to have15 grand lying around that can
be a good job Um but as far asresponsibility from a junior

(20:50):
sock engineer, that's more my,my experience as a blue team
engineer and and Tim you know,correct me if you know any
different my experience as asock engineer would be able to
do the TLC and reallymaintenance of sim.
You're not necessarily doingthe implementation of the TLC Uh

(21:13):
, you, you're, you're not goingto do the hard parts of it, but
they'll want you to understandkind of the in and outs and the
taking care of it and developingroles and alerts and you know
that nature.
Would you, would you assumeanything different?

Speaker 2 (21:28):
That's pretty much where I would be looking at
things like that.
That you know, yeah, like yousay you're, you're as far as in
the chain.
I guess that's where you know.
That's where you would be interms of that.
Yeah, that's where I would bein terms of, I guess, not
technically advanced or whatever, but you know more.
In that you know alert level, Iguess you're kind of moving up

(21:51):
the the rank, you know, in termsof who you're reporting to and
that kind of thing and whatever.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
So yeah, yeah, and and and again, it's.
It's one of those things.
The engineer side usually ismore technical, in the back end
side of things, yeah, whereaswhen you're looking at the
analyst side you know you'relooking like being able to delve
into even threat intel a littlebit and threat hunting is more

(22:17):
on the analyst side.
Engineer side is definitelymore software oriented.
What are what are youimplementing?
How are you fixing it?
How are you troubleshooting itAll?
Of these different things.
So, yeah, that's kind of how Ilook at the differences between
the two.
Sometimes, though, yourengineers make good level three

(22:41):
and you're trying to become anengineer.
Because of how in depth you getwith the software, you
understand more about the threathunting side, because normally
you'll not always there's waysaround it, but a lot of times
you'll see people go fromanalysts to engineer versus
straight into engineering.
Yeah, yeah, for sure, um man, alot of talking going on.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
I think we're talking about feet now.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
I think you're something, well, because kind of
like I don't know if you sawthat I think he's laughing about
.
Yeah, Um uh, a sock analyst issomeone who you know
investigates.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Analyzes socks, you know so you have holy socks
maybe yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:23):
So I think that's interesting and and so, going
from that, if I'm going to lookmore in the blue team and let's
say you, you continue your focuson moving up the ranks in the
blue team side of things rightnow, if you were to look at this
, what have you?
Would you look to consider moreabout threat hunting and threat

(23:46):
intel and the the research sideof things?
Would that intrigue you more?
Um, just giving your mindset ofof where you're at right now,
knowing it could change in thefuture, but you know, if we were
to look at it right now, wouldyou consider that more of a
pathway of someone in the blueteam, really in depth in the
weeds of the analysts and inresearch side of things.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
You know, just because that's, I think, when
you're looking through stuff,you know as as a sock analyst
you're, you're seeing all thisstuff and you're actually kind
of want to maybe delve a littledeeper into what's actually
going on, and so I think that'sprobably a bit progression.
Or at least where your mindwanders right, when you're
looking at this stuff, you'relike, okay, where did that all

(24:29):
come from?
How'd that originate?
What's the?
You know?
And so it's, you know, lookingat logs, you know it's kind of
one thing, but then to kind ofsay, okay, how'd that all happen
, and where did it come from,and where are we going, you know
, with it, right, and so yeah, Ithink that the whole threat
hunting and you know kind ofgoing through that is probably a
bit of a natural progression.
For I guess if you'reinquisitive at all, you know I

(24:52):
mean you're constantly thinkinglike what's going on here, why
are these people doing whatthey're doing?
How do I figure out?
So that you know, so I can, youknow, recognize it for the next
time or be better able to dealwith it the next time or
whatever.
So you know, definitely a bitof a natural, I think,
progression when you're lookingat that stuff all the time,

(25:14):
right.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, definitely, I think between that and even
cyber panda here you know.
Incident response.
Incident response is anothergood area to get into,
especially if you become veryadept at threat hunting and
being an analyst and you knowunderstanding where attack
vectors are coming from, howthey are propagating through
your network, what logs they'regenerating, what changes they're

(25:38):
making.
The IR side of thing becomesvery lucrative in just knowledge
alone, not even necessarilymoney, I mean.
Granted, yes, the money's there, but just the knowledge of you
know.
Now you're getting to see moreIOCs, you're getting to see what
the bigger players are doingwhen they're breaching networks.

(25:58):
So I think IR is another hugeblue team perspective that
people take for granted anddon't really investigate or look
to get into all the time.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of those areas that, like
I said, and really it's kind ofit's as broad as it is long.
I guess, as they say, like youknow, when you start looking
into you know, I mean you cankind of go down that niche.
You know rabbit hole, reallyright where there, you know it
just gets, you know there's moreand more, like I said, with IR
and all that stuff that you'rekind of you know.

(26:28):
For me anyways, that's the wayI found it.
I found, as I started to studyand learn more, all of a sudden
something comes up.
Of course, we know there's allkinds of acronyms, so you hear
something and you're like youlook at that and you're like,
geez, maybe I should like godown that path and maybe I
should look at that.
That sounds intriguing.
But yeah, like rabbit hole, oh,I know, like it's strong, yeah,

(26:50):
I know I'm just discovering atthis age that it's actually
strong in me as well that you'rekind of like, oh my God, like
every time you turn aroundthere's something else you know
and it is really and it'sprobably all in in all of
cybersecurity.
It seems like you know whetherit's, you know, blue, red,
purple, whatever.
There's so many areas that youcould basically make a career

(27:13):
just out of that, you know.
I mean, there's definitely somany areas to kind of branch out
into.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
Oh, yeah, for sure, and I think one of the biggest
things is, you know, so, thatpeople don't feel discouraged.
Ocd, adhd, add, whatever youwant to call it.
I swear almost everybody I knowin cybersecurity has something
of the sort.
Because, you know, like, for me, when it comes to reading tech

(27:44):
books, I have like two or threebookshelves full over there, if
not more.
Yeah, and literally I'll gothrough, start reading them and
then it's like, oh, this looks.
Wait, it doesn't continuefurther than this.
Hold up new book to buy.
Go buy a new book, startreading that.
Find this you know a differentarea.
I'm like I'll hold up new bookto buy.
There's only like one book outof my entire collection of

(28:06):
learning books that I havefinished.
Only one.
Like even the Sands books, goingthrough Sands instruction.
Yes, I've technically finishedthem because I had to go through
the week of training, but itwasn't like I sat there in red
every word for word thing.
It was like all right, let'sget through the class.
What are you gonna teach metoday?
All right, let's get to thehands-on stuff.
Let's move along, let's keepgoing.

(28:27):
But when it comes to me buyingand self-teaching myself, I do.
I see shiny, I hear squirrellike a terpie.
I'm out, I'm like oh, I know.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
How many tabs are open on your browser?

Speaker 1 (28:42):
Oh, you only wanna know.
You don't even wanna know.
I even started because Chromeallows you to assign sections to
them.
Now I even have my assignmentsin there and I've learned that I
can actually just reopen thatsame window even if I restart my
computer.
So I'm not as afraid to restartmy computer anymore.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
I think I shut down 14 windows before I came on this
broadcast and there's still apile there.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
Just go into your history and you can reopen the
same window.
It works.
Yeah, I know, but you won'tworry.
Okay, hold on, we got a goodone here.
What's the most difficult thingyou have come across in your
cyber career can be anything,and anyone can answer.
So I mean you will bothestablish this.

(29:30):
I'm gonna let you go first.
And anyone in chat.
Please chime in on Misha'squestion as well.
We will throw it up on thescreen.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
I think and maybe this I mean it's to do with the
cyber, with the career, I guessto a certain degree, because, as
we know, networking is a hugething.
In especially getting startedand that kind of thing.
You gotta get your name outthere.
Your people have to know whoyou are.
You can't just kind of jump ontop of people and start asking
all kinds of questions.
You gotta build rapport andeverything with people.

(29:59):
I've actually found and maybethis is just my life in general
but putting posts up and tryingto get some response out of them
, I think has been the mostdifficult thing I've found to do
.
And really the reason you doposts, especially with this, I
mean, we're not talking aboutlike doing, you know, instagram,
facebook posts for, you know,to get pretty and popular.

(30:21):
We're talking about you'retrying to network, you're trying
to connect with people andpeople who can, you can glean
knowledge from them.
Those kinds of things I'vefound trying to put up things
that's going to get peopleinterested or intrigued and to
give information.
You know what I mean in thesense of things that I would

(30:44):
find useful but I could also behelpful to them as well and
making those kind of you knowkind of connections you know.
Like I said, I've found it'snot the talking to people.
I can talk to people, I canconnect with people, I can do
that.
But I've found, with the onlinethings, trying to make those
same things I would do with ahandshake has, you know, has

(31:06):
been difficult, right, likethat's.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
Yeah, yeah, I could definitely understand that,
because that networking, thatreport that you normally get in
person when you're sitting onand talking to someone.
This is why I love conferences,this is why like I do, stuff
like that are so important to me.
And again, I don't go to thesethings to go to the talks.
Yes, I'm sure the talks weregreat.
A my mind just doesn't workthat way.
I can't sit at a computer andpay attention for 20 minutes,

(31:32):
let alone sit uncomfortably insome uncomfortable chairs and
try to listen to someone for 20minutes.
It just doesn't work for me.
It's not who I am.
I go to these places to network.
Going to New Jersey CyberfireSides this past week was a great
way to network.
I met some amazing people, someof the Some of the best people

(31:53):
I have met in person andprobably years in this industry.
I met there and I meet them atthese smaller conferences.
It's never.
I've never been to a hugeconference and I feel like it's
a good thing because I feel likeI'd get lost.
So that in-person networking ishuge.
Cyber Panda honestly, burnoutand depression.

(32:15):
You need to take breaks.
If you're a professional andalso passionate in private, you
get down that rabbit hole verydeep.
If you're at home, stop doingthe cybers, make time for breaks
, enjoy family and stuff, andhe's not wrong.
That is one of the hardestthings to do is to separate

(32:37):
yourself.
For example, when I was in theArmy, I was in IT, sort of doing
some jobs there, eventually gotinto the cyber, got all my
certifications.
As I was getting out, I wasalways on LinkedIn.
I was doing more and more and Iwas trying to develop myself
outside of the Army, knowing Iwas getting out, knowing I was

(32:59):
getting retired, I still neededto have a career, so I was doing
more.
I got out, just tried to starta business.
Then I started full-time work,started my channel, doing all
this stuff.
I was burning the candle at bothends.
I did not know how to say no towork.
I did not know how to notanswer a phone or notification
or an email or chat or anything,and so I was very big on.

(33:23):
I always have to be there.
I have to be present.
Work is important.
Gotta be at work.
Gotta be at work, gotta be atwork.
And it wasn't until probablyabout a year or two ago actually
.
No, I think we're about threeyears now.
Two years out of the Army isabout what it took for me to
finally be like nope step away,and so when I took time out from

(33:46):
work, I took time out from mycomputer, I literally cut
everything off, shut it all downand was like I'm done, I need
my peace, I need my sanity, Ineed my mental health, and I
think that's a big thing that wemiss in this industry is being
able to step away, because whenyour passion and your career are
the same thing, as much as theysay, if you love what you do,

(34:07):
you'll never work a day in yourlife yeah, that's great, as long
as you're not doing it afterwork also.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
Yes, yeah, and that's important.
I mean that's like I said.
I was that way with my othercareers and with massage therapy
.
I mean that's the whole thing.
I mean I'm teaching peopleright that you need to take care
of yourself, you need to drinkmore water, you need to exercise
regularly, you need to stretch,you need to do whatever.
And here I was breaking up myown body and again having to

(34:36):
take those breaks because it wasjust like you gotta take that
time.
And sometimes it's even justthe mental getaway, getaway
where you're just out of thespace that you're normally in.
Completely Like I said and Itold you earlier, I mean I was
away for a couple of days withmy dad earlier on this week and
it was just a getaway.
We had limited cell phoneservice limited, you know, I

(34:56):
mean it was just kind of like.
You know we're in a littlelittle cubby, bunky place that,
you know, had one electricaloutlet and no actual light in
the room.
It was just lanterns and it wasgreat, it was fantastic.
You just you need those timesfor sure, and I found that even
with studying Through this, youknow, I mean you.
You know, I mean I've done alot of that, even since I've

(35:17):
turned 40 of you know, kind oftrying to reinvent myself and,
you know, just having to takethat time away.
When I'm so driven and sofocused to get done what I, you
know, either to get thatcertification or or whatever it
was, with you know going throughmassage school and all that, it
was like you still got to takethat time Away.
That's it's super important forpeople to remember for sure.

Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yeah, definitely, and I've noticed that a lot more.
One of the things that I'vestarted, you know, in the past
two years, three years Actually,more specifically in the past I
don't know eight months Maybewhen did I come out and I'm
gonna get named for this, butwhen did I come out with my walk
with me podcast Skull?
Someone's gonna tell me todrink, so I'll figure I might as

(36:01):
well get it over with.
You know, that's one of the bigthings I've talked about is is
your mental health and gettingaway and being able to really
just take a look at yourself,because Sometimes and I had a
conversation with someone todaywho finally hit their wall they
hit their wits and they're likeI can't afford to do this.

(36:21):
I just I can't, I can't, it'sjust not in me mentally and and
financially, and just everythingfinally ran its course and I
was like look, man, we all haveour own turn, we all have our
own path, we all have all the.
You know you have to do thingsat your own pace and if this is
not for you, if it's gonna taketoo long for you to get a job in
this industry that you're notwilling to deal with it, I'd

(36:45):
rather your mental health beokay, then you push yourself too
far and hit your wits end andthen no longer be able to talk.
Yeah, sure as long as we couldhave these conversations, then,
fine, step away.
You don't need to do this.
This doesn't need to be acareer for you, because it is a
very difficult career right nowto get into.

(37:05):
There's a ton of layoffs.
The recession literally hit aton of companies are.
You're seeing a huge amount ofFortune 500 and 1000 and all
these other organizations layingpeople off in IT and
cybersecurity.
It's not easy to break intoright now.
It requires connections and anetwork and knowing people.
Yeah, if you're hot in thatspace and you haven't done that

(37:27):
yet, then, yes, it's gonna takemore time, mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, and even even doing that, even trying to make
those connections Like and evenfor myself personally, right,
that it's a difficult thing,it's not.
It's not like, it's not simple,it's not as simple as it may be
, sometimes be made out to be,you know, and it really is it's
it's you do have to dig in, youhave to get in the trenches, you
have to do the work that needsto be done, but and like I said,

(37:53):
it's it's gonna be frustratingat times, but, like you said,
yeah, your mental health is moreimportant and you've, you do
have to take those step backtimes, right, and and just say,
okay, this is, you know, what'smore important here at the end
of the day, right?

Speaker 1 (38:07):
Yeah, definitely and yeah and one hour when all while
she's gonna put she's gonnakill me because I keep, you know
, I keep changing how Ipronounce her name.
She's gonna be on me, I'll neverdo it right all the time.
Most difficult thing for herjust remembering I can do this
and not get discouraged when Irun across something I don't
understand.
Hmm, reminds me of a friend ofmine, mm-hmm, who is currently

(38:28):
going through another coursethat is getting kind of fed up a
time.
But yeah, that's another one.
How many times time have yourun across stuff that you don't
understand and it kind of makesyou want to beat your head
against the wall and sometimesjust be like you know what I
quit?

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Pretty much every day .
I but and I think that's athing for somebody who's usually
and like I said, not you know,I don't know if I'm super
fantastic at anything, butusually I've found a lot of
things for you know, whetherit's you know, you know music or
sports or whatever.
I'm okay at a lot of them, youknow, and, and they haven't been
difficult to do.
I mean you know, I can do.

(39:04):
You know construction work.
I mean I can do, you know, I do.
You know Gardening and growingthings and all kinds of stuff
and whatever, raising kids andthe whole bit and some of those
things as you get doing them.
Of course you're kind of like,every now and again you get
difficult things that come up,you know, and you have to, you
know, have to deal with it headon.
But normally it's kind of likeokay, I, you know, I can do this

(39:25):
.
This is not you know not, youknow, not that it's not tough,
it is, but you're kind of usedto those Feelings and the way
you deal with it.
But then in this, you knowagain, for me it is definitely
new because I'm coming upagainst a lot of things that I'm
kind of like, geez, I justdon't know where to go from here
and I'm having to reach out,I'm having to ask the difficult

(39:45):
questions, I'm having to try anddig deep and find the answers
and you know that happens nowProbably on a daily basis, where
you know and you really takesyou out of your comfort zone.
It definitely does.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah, and even she says I dig and respect your
sense of humility and that's,and that's what it's thank you,
I appreciate that right, sureI'm not, I'm not.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
I'm trying to see some of the stuff that's coming
up on the chat and everythingbut.
I'm not.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
If it's pertinent to the conversation, or a new yeah
throw it up on the screen.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
So I appreciate everybody's input things it's.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, you know it's.
It's.
It's hard because when, when welook at things and we look at
the situation, I've burnt myselfout up in there.
I've done videos on it, I'vedone, you know, I've had when
all while on here to talk aboutit, me and her did an episode a

(40:39):
few weeks back, or maybeactually no, I think that was
our first episode, so it'sprobably about two months ago
now when she was first on.
You know, we've had thesediscussions and it's just it's
really difficult because webecome so afraid to step away
Because, like I said, if you'renot learning, then you fall
behind.
If you're not, if you're notconstantly doing, then you risk

(41:01):
falling behind.
But the reality of it is it'sokay, you can get caught back up
as long as you get back tolearning.
Yeah, the world is not gonnaend if you say you know, what.
I'ma shut my mouth If you sayyou know.
But I'ma shut my computer, myphone, my TV, everything off for

(41:22):
a weekend and go out campingand get away from everybody.
Yeah the world's not gonna end.
Yeah, you're still gonna haveyour job, you're still gonna be
able to go back, you're stillgonna be be able to do all
things I got yelled at.
But so so I have.
I am the practice manager forthe implement, for security
engineering at my company and mybuddy is for operations.

(41:43):
He does once everything isengineered and installed.
He does the managed servicesside of things.
And On Monday I was on my workcomputer Just tie up some loose
ends doing some things and heknew I was on PTO all week and
he legitimately yelled at me toget off of teams.
It was like stopping Because heknows, yeah, I let my team for

(42:05):
the same thing when you're onPTO, don't sign in, don't do.
When it you're gone, you're out.
Yeah, I hit him up, I text him.
I was like homie, I'm gonnahave like a hundred emails on
Monday, if not more.
He goes only a hundred.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
I'm like shut up life will go on, right.
Right, that that's the thing.
Like life always goes on, andit's the same.
I beat myself up over that allthe time too.
You know where I'm kind of likeI don't feel like you know, I
want to take the time away andlike it's like I'm gonna miss
something.
But I always look at it kind ofsimilar to you know what, when
maybe money's not so great andeverything, and you're like you

(42:43):
know what, I need to take myloved one out, my partner, wife,
husband, whatever, and it'sgonna cost 50 bucks, but right
now that seems tight, but at theend of the day, you know what,
next week you won't evenremember that you spent that 50
bucks, or you know.
So it's at the end of the day,you need to do that, you need to
, you know, need to take thattime.
And I mean I took time awaybecause I I said I got started

(43:04):
in this just as COVID washitting.
I did my comp to you exam Rightat the start of COVID,
basically.
So you know I mean, and then,you know, just about a year
after that, I, you know, whilewe were in the middle of
everything, I had to take sometime away.
And you know what I didn't?
Yeah, maybe I missed somethings during that time, but you

(43:25):
get right back on the horse andyou go again like that's you
know.
But you got to realize that youknow.
Yeah, maybe you know the a fewmonths have gone by, but you
haven't really lost right andyou just get back up and start
again and get back to yourresearch and learning and so I'm
gonna bring up Adrian's CommentAmerican mindset work yourself

(43:49):
into the ground for thatAmerican dream and I know you're
not in America, tim, but Ibelieve, I believe the same
thing, right, yeah it's justkeep working and and and.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
Here's the thing about that is, you don't have to
do that, not, especially not inthis industry, don't get me
wrong.
When we were, when you, if youwere paid hourly and here's the
kicker that a lot of peopledon't realize If you are not
paid hourly, what does working80 hours a week get you?
Burnt out, pissed?

(44:19):
off, yeah, angry, yeah, exactlyyeah if you are not running a
business.
What does 80 hours a week getyou?
Burnt out, pissed off and angry?
Yeah, unless there is a reasonfor you to work that extra mile.
Now, I'm not talking about yourown call that week.
Someone calls you at 10 o'clockat night and says, hey, we have

(44:39):
a breach, we need you to helpout.
No, no, I'm talking about, hey,your hours are from 9 to 5 or 8
to 5 or whatever the case maybe, and you're still working at
8 o'clock at night.
Yeah, yeah.
Dude, if you don't have adeadline to meet, if you don't
have, like, a client projectthat needs turned in that night,

(44:59):
hands down before midnight, itneeds done or needs to be there
before start a business the nextday, why, why?
Why put that pressure onyourself?
And for PTO Look, I haveunlimited PTO.
Even if I didn't especially ifI didn't actually, let's be
honest, especially if I didn'thave unlimited PTO my PTO is my

(45:20):
time off.
I am it's paid.
I earn that shit.
It is Time off.
I'm out bitches.
Yeah.
Take it.
Yeah, for sure.
Why work when you're supposedto have paid time off?
Yeah, I.
That's all the effort, get ridof it.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah, definitely seeing it in too many cases.
And, like I said, and I knowpeople who are in, you know, in
the IT space, who, yeah, they're, they're on salary and they're
putting in all this extra time.
That's not, like I said again,emergency or emergencies, right,
like.
So, if that's your team you'reworking on, project needs to be
done at a certain date and, oops, all of a sudden, something you

(45:58):
know, you discover a breach.
Last minute, all of a sudden,you got to go in take care of
things.
Sure, I, but on a regular basis,consistently putting in that
extra time that's not necessary,only because you feel like
that's the only way toaccomplish things, is not, it's
not, is not healthy, and I thinkit's definitely an important

(46:18):
thing to remember.
And that even goes for yourstudy time, you know, even if
you're just starting to get in,like you know, I mean, take your
time, you know, take yourbreaks, take your family time,
take your, you know what yougotta do, things that you, you
enjoy outside of that.
And again, sometimes I justtake off, you know, and just
that's it, I'm out, I'm not, youknow, I'm not burning myself

(46:38):
out for this, right?

Speaker 1 (46:39):
so, and I really love what Natalie's thing is,
because summer I like coolerweather, I love hoody weather.
Right, yeah, in spring I'mgoing to go.
But she says I personally usethe winter to delve into work
and then summer is my me timeand that makes sense because you
can do vacation, go to thebeach, you can With a ton of
different things.
I don't blame her for that, dowe have All right?

(47:04):
so it's always, always sweaterweather, ryan well, this is true
where you're at, it's always.
But I do have another one hereand I want you to touch in on
this for a little bit.
Where to go?
Hold on, I'm there, we go.
I have to set limits for myselfor I will not stop studying, so

(47:27):
I'm gonna let you go solo for alittle bit.
Yeah, touch on this, becauselimits are very important.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
Yeah, I like it's definitely you've got to, and
lots of times I will write downeven blocks of time for myself,
right where I, you know, I justknow I need those, those you
know kind of stop times andwhether that was even studying
back in a one of us.
Are you for this, you know, formy, for my certifications and

(47:54):
things like that.
You just got to set the limitsand really it's, it's Just as
simple as you know, saying, okay, I've done, you know, two hours
of study or done two hoursworking on, you know, on these,
you know log files or whatever,and just having to take the time
, you know to then say, okay, I,you know, put in two hours,

(48:18):
let's give myself a fifteenminute break.
Or put in three hours, let'stake a half hour and take some
downtime and do something youlove like for me it probably be
pick up a guitar or listen tosome music or do whatever have a
glass of red wine or something.
You know red wine and chocolatewas my go to when I was
studying.
But so, you know, I mean that's,you know you really got to put

(48:41):
the limits, you know, as much asyou put the limits on yourself
for anything else, right, youknow Not to over indulge in
things.
You know also don't overindulge in, you know, draining
the whatever out of yourselfjust to get you know where the
next step.
Again, like I said, if it's not, you know, an emergency, right,
if it's not something that hasto be done now, set your limits,

(49:03):
stick to them, write them down.
If you have to, I mean there'sall.
We got all kinds of programsavailable to us, all kinds of
apps, timers, whatever.
Use them, you know, takeadvantage of them.
And you know I have a buddycall.
You say let's go for a beer,let's go do what you know.
And just exactly, if I had somehere now, I'd be drinking.
Unfortunately not I show by now.

(49:24):
I know I was like.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
Yeah, you're not wrong, and that's one of those
things is I did.
I've been there.
I spent every waking night.
I would go hours and hours onend of when I was in the army I
would work all day and then, ofcourse, being an nco, you're
always Serving.

(49:52):
Somebody can call you at anytime of day, so I work all day.
I come home my computer was inmy living room so my wife would
put on tv, we'd watch something,but then I would be on my
computer and I'll be working ona certification or my degree or
something always going, going,going, going, never stop, unless
I was grilling and drinking abeer.

(50:13):
That was about the only time Istepped away from my computer.
So I was in like four bra.
When I was in four bragg, northcarolina, I had about two hours
that I was not working towardsbettering myself.
I say bettering because reallywhat I was doing with burning
myself out which is whatactually the sad part about it

(50:35):
is, that's what pushed me intomanagement is because I got away
from the technical.
I can still do the technical.
I still do it now, my job, notas often now I'm in charge, but
I still step in and take chargeand do the hands on stuff when I
need to.
It's just it's why my techTuesdays have suffered.
It's why certain aspects of whoI am have kind of fallen to the

(50:57):
wayside, where I do theresearch and do the tech work
when I have to.
But that's not what I want tospecialize in anymore.
It's just not who I am.
I am a motivator.
I am someone who likes toinspire others, you know,
encourage others to keep going.
But it's because I burnt myselfout.
I really burnt the candle onboth ends and, especially when

(51:20):
it came to technical, got to thepoint where I was just like I'm
out bitches, you have it yeah,and that's the thing that.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
And there's never.
You know, when it comes tothese things, like I said, you
know, yeah, there's deadlinesand everything else, but I mean
there's there's never an endsometimes to the technical stuff
, right, you know, and you knowyou can keep going down that.
You know that rabbit hole, youknow you can do that forever and
you know, try and figure it,the ins and outs of everything.
But you know, yeah, at somepoint you got to kind of just

(51:48):
yeah, hands up, and just, youknow, give it up for a bit and
take a break, and just, you know, refresh yourself, right.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
Yeah, definitely, and I look at it and I am someone
who I still get intrigued.
They still there are stillcertain aspects that will will
grab my attention.
Like cally purple came out yeah, it grabbed my attention.
I did a video on it maybe to,but I haven't gone any further
than that because I just don'thave it in me to keep digging

(52:19):
into it.
I'm like that's a lot of stuffthat I'm just like do I really
want to do a video?
Am I really gonna give adifferent perspective than
somebody else?
Because I'm just gonna do anoverview of the shit.
I'm not gonna show you thetolls, I'm not gonna dig into
this holes, explain what theyare and go about my way like am
I really doing anythingdifferent?

Speaker 2 (52:41):
Yeah that's what I've been trying to just limit
myself to the things that arepertinent to what I'm doing
right now.
And it's a difficult thing todo because, again, squirrel
right and you like, okay,something else over there.
Oh, there's something else youknow, but that's yeah, we, we,
you know we definitely tend todo that, but yeah, you kind of
got it, got to Limit yourself.

(53:02):
You know two things that arereally in front of you and
what's gonna help you accomplish.
You know the immediate.
You know go right.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
Yeah, and for me, it's always.
For me, especially right nowmoving up in my career, it's,
it's helping others.
Any way I can.
That is, that is legitimatelyall I I you know really
concentrate on and try to do,and that is where my whole
channel, and where everything iskind of gone and taken off from

(53:32):
, is just that motivation, thatinspiration type of aspect.
Yeah, and it doesn't mean I'mnot in cyber security doesn't
mean cyber, or your studiosdoesn't mean cyber.
What it means is there are morethan one, at least there is
more than one aspect of cyberthan just hands on keyboard.
There is more than one aspectof what we do To then then just

(53:57):
breaking into shit, or, or youknow this.
At the third, there's mentalhealth, there's, you know,
staying inspired.
There's so much more to ourcareers and our people are
persons.
Then just one thing and for meit's explaining that and taking
it from there, it just takes ahell of a lot more.
What you're saying makes mefeel so much better myself, my

(54:20):
future.
I got as far as you got and Iwas very sick, but one of all,
when, when I walk, when I walk,she's gonna kill me I'm not even
gonna attempt.
He's gonna kill me.
She was on.
I had it perfect when she wason two weeks ago or last week,
whatever was.
She's gonna kill me, but yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
You want me to attempt it, but no I do.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
I think holly parple has a lot of good features about
it.
I'm still a huge fan of parentsec.
It has the anon mode.
It was built on security, wasbuilt for security, was built
with security in mind.
So it allows you to goanonymous.
It filters everything to tour.
No, that's not guaranteedanonymity, but you know, it's

(55:13):
just one of those things that Iprefer parents, I, I, I, I,
these other versions, just toshow them the people.
But yeah, I'll be parentsecurity hands down all the time
.
But she did say Muah, now what?

Speaker 2 (55:28):
Oh, no, muah now, oh one, now one hour.
There we go.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
One hour.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
Perfect, got it.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
I am weird, don't judge me.

Speaker 2 (55:42):
There's nothing wrong with that.
Weirds the way to go.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
I heard I love being weird.
My wife married me because I'mweird.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
Yeah, I know that's probably how I've got most what
I have.
In life now is being weird.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
Right, my wife was.
My wife calls me weird all thetime or crazy, and I'm like,
yeah, what's that make you?
I know, worse huh, love her ofthe weird Goes into a circle.
It literally is just.
Yeah.
Keeps continuing, I'm like youknow, this can be an endless
loop.
I'm out.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
I know my wife's the total opposite of me.
She's, like, you know, veryquiet, very, you know just very
sweet and very, you know, andI'm like I'm just allowed, I'm
out there always doing crazystuff, you know, trying to
figure out crazy stuff, andthat's, you know, that's what a
lot of this is, right.
You're just kind of, you know,trying to figure out some of the
crazy, of the crazy, right?

Speaker 1 (56:34):
So Well, when I think with, with cybersecurity, when
you're looking at, you know,stock analysts, transitioning
careers, whatever you're tryingto do, it's crazy.
It's that shit crazy.
Yeah, because you're looking atpeople that are, you know, in
their mid 30s, late 30s, 40s,50s, sometimes in their 60s, you

(56:54):
know, like you know what I gotto get a new career.
Shit.
So I'm scared, let's go.
And it's like a lot of themwill really drop everything and
just go full bore into it.
And I commend them.
I commend them a hundredpercent.
I'm like yo, let's go, If yougot the gall to do that shit.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
Let's not yeah for sure.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
Let's go at it, because it means you have more
passion and more drive than someof these teenagers coming out
of college or high school orsomething like that, because
you're going to go full boreinto it and you know it's going
to mean something to you.
Now, the caveat to that is ifyou're doing it because you
don't get paid enough, that'swhere I have an issue.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
Yeah, no, it can't be .
You know, it can't be justabout the dollar, right, like I
mean that's for me, like I said,a lot of it was just it was,
yeah, it was the transition, youknow, needing the transition
from, you know, very physicaland plus, I mean I'd done a lot
of, you know, physical jobs.
I mean I've done so.
I can't even begin to spout offthe things that I've done, but

(57:59):
you know, at this stage in lifeit was kind of like, yeah, you
know my kids are older, you knowI probably want to do, you know
, a little travel over time aswell.
My wife and I like to, you know,see new places and do new
things and we also, you know,would like to have a little bit
of freedom.
So, you know, there's also thatthat comes with it, sometimes

(58:22):
as far as mobility and whatever.
But I mean it's, but you can'ttake away from the fact that
it's hard work.
It's a lot of learning, youknow, and but it doesn't involve
me beating the crap out of mybody, you know.
So my mind, you know that wasgone a long time ago.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
So I'm supposed to be supposed to have a like sanity?
No way.

Speaker 2 (58:45):
No, I'm out.
That's gone, gone completely.
So I don't think there'sanybody who knows me who would
say there's any sanity.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
Yeah, and it's, and it's one of those things.
And it's funny too, becauseAmanda just said and this is
Amanda, I'm just excited myfavorite hobby is actually a
career.
Yeah.
And this comes down to it.
And so me and her good friendshe's one of my sisters, she's a
warrior, she's she's family.
She means a lot to me.
You know, I'm the one thattalked to her into going into

(59:17):
cybersecurity.
She told me what she did, whatshe likes to do and kind of
where her niche is, and it'slike, all right, cool, let's get
these basic foundations underyou and then we're going to find
you a career and a job becauseit fits what you're doing.
We just got to find the rightterminology to mesh with the
career field.
But she does a hell of a lotmore than I do.
Hell, she's a lot better atwhat she does than I can do.

(59:40):
So I don't even try to comparemyself to her.
She'll put me to shame if Istart taking into it.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
Well, I think that's the thing with you know again,
people who have life experiencewith other things too right Is
that you've got a lot of softskills that you need, you know,
and and you know, depending onwhere you go, even in
cybersecurity they're you know,whatever niche you go into.
I mean, sometimes the techskills are super heavy,
sometimes they're not quite soheavy, so you can kind of pick

(01:00:11):
and choose your.
You know your path when itcomes to that, right?
Oh for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
And that's, and that's the thing, right, you
know, in this, in this industryand we're going to wrap it up
and get your your last wordshere in a little bit but in this
industry you have two sets ofpeople.
You have the very technicalthat have no soft skills, which
means they can do all thefucking work but they can't talk
to any of the clients or any ofthe executives.

(01:00:36):
They're good people, they knowtheir shit.
They'll know more than I everknow.
Go for it, homie, I will sickyou on whatever technology you
want.
Go for it.
Yeah, then you have the onesthat have a lot of soft skills.
Well, I mean, there's anintermediary also, but really
what we see a lot of is you havethe ones that have the soft
skills.
They can do the reports, theycan talk to the executives, they

(01:00:57):
can interact with clients, theycan do all this other stuff and
they can talk to talk to theclients.
They can talk to talk.
They can't actually put theirhands on the tech, but they know
what they're talking about.
They can sell it, they can.
They can consult on it, theycan do so many other things, but
to actually get in there and dothe work is a whole different
story.
Finding someone that can doboth is few and far between.

(01:01:20):
It's not impossible, it's justfew and far between, because a
lot of your techies are extremeintroverts that don't want to
talk to fucking anybody.
Yeah, they want to speak tothemselves.
They want to stay to themselves.
Leave them alone give them acar to go into and they'll be
happy.
Yeah.
Your, your socialites, your,your consultants, your people
that can talk to others but notnecessarily do the tech work

(01:01:42):
anymore.
They're more extroverted.
That's what they do is isinteract with others on a daily
basis.
They have this charisma aboutthem to be able to do these
things, but they can'tnecessarily put their hands on
the tech anymore.
Regardless of whatever thereason is, they either move out
of it or something happened.
Then you have your middlepeople that somehow can manage

(01:02:04):
to do both.
They're an oddity, but theyexist.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
I'm hoping I can get there.
Somewhere in between Oddity,but they exist yeah for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
But look, before we go, it is over the top of the
hour.
I want to get your final words,any advice, any, any words of
wisdom, anything you can give toall those that are watching or
going to be watching here.
What advice can you give themto entering cyber security,
getting into cyber security,being in cyber security?
Whatever you got, let's givesome more advice.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
I think you know, really, you know it has to be a
little bit of a long game.
And you know, just, look, dosome research on even a niche
that you're looking for inparticular, whether it be blue
team, red team, purple team orwhatever and you know, look, I
mean there's all kinds of liststhat I found online for you know

(01:02:58):
what are the requirements to bea SOC analyst or what are the
requirements to be a pen testeror whatever.
Take those things and then kindof work yourself backward and,
you know, find the people, thetools that are going to help you
and reach out, reach out topeople like you know, cyber war
is a great place, you know.
I mean it's been great supportLots of other people on LinkedIn
.
If you start to reach out andbuild that rapport and build

(01:03:19):
those relationships with people,they'll find the stuff you need
.
You don't have to be at italone, you know, just because
all of a sudden you sawsomething new that you wanted to
get into with.
You know, cybersecurity soundsexciting and interesting, but
there's lots of people out herethat are willing to help out and
actually I got to be honest inall the things I've done in my

(01:03:39):
life in.
You know it's been a good fewyears in the workforce.
It's one of the places thatI've found the most supportive
people and helpful people.
So that's probably the biggestadvice Just reach out to you
know, start to build a rapportwith people.
Just kind of go full bore, youknow yelling at people as you
know well, help me, help me,help me, kind of thing.
Just start to build thatrapport with people and people

(01:04:02):
have been.
I've really found there havebeen very few people that were
not willing to stop for a momentwhat they were doing and take
the time to help you out, and Ithink that's probably the most
important advice I can give.
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
I can't.
I can't disagree with thatbecause, at the end of the day,
networking is so huge in ourcommunity.
That's how I've gotten jobs.
It is how I've helped othersget jobs.
It is.
It is really really big on whatwe do.
And again, you hit the nail onthe head.
Don't just go out there fullbore of I need a job, I need
this advice, I need you know, orI applied a million times.

(01:04:37):
Why didn't you hire me?
Or or why did he get aninterview?
It's literally go in there anddevelop this relationship, this
friendship or, you know,acquaintance, whatever you want
to call it.
Go in there and develop apersonality.
Let them get to know who youare and what you're about, and
that'll take you a hell of a lotfurther.
And so I think that's huge andsomething we're missing.
I don't know how many salesemails or LinkedIn messages I

(01:05:00):
get of hey, I saw you, I thoughtyou'd be a great connection.
Oh, hey, by the way, I sell allthis shit.
Okay, good for you.
I don't care how many be gone.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Those are the things that I lookat.
You want to tell me something.
Let's meet at a conference.
We'll talk about my.
You know who I am, who I workfor, kind of my brand, what I do

(01:05:21):
.
You tell me about you and we'llhave that conversation.
But if I'm not at a conferenceand you're just cold, like
messaging me or sending me shit,I don't care about.
I'm done, I'm out.
Do this is see you later?
Yeah, I don't care.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
Yeah, I wouldn't respond to anything that I
wouldn't do myself.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:05:37):
Like that's yeah so, but anyways, hey look, it's been
great talking to you, Tim.
Feel free to hang out in theback for a minute.
Otherwise, look everybody inthe chat.
Make sure like, comment,subscribe and if you are in the
chat, please come back after Iend this and leave a comment,
because it really helps, andalso share the episode.
Perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
Otherwise look, I love you all.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
Take care.
You're all my warriors, you'reall my family and I'll see you
next week with another amazingepisode of security.
Happy out.

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
Thanks so much.