November 20, 2020 • 31 mins
This week, I speak with Brenda Dunn (aka Art in Jest) about the skills developed through art and being a community-engaged artist. Brenda discusses the importance of relationships and social awareness in art and valuing yourself and those around you!
Brenda Dunn's bio:
"I make things. I also make things happen."
Brenda Dunn has been getting in trouble for crayoning on the walls for as long as she can remember. She eventually went to art school at the University of Guelph and drew on whatever she wanted.
She works and plays in Ottawa where she came for grad school and stuck around ever since. She learned lots of busy words during her Masters in English Literature, but it turns out she prefers the visual to the verbal when it comes to communication. You can see the things she makes at artinjest.com, or rifle through her digital sock drawer on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter all @artinjest.
She was hired into a corporate environment straight out of grad school and spent six years being a high-performing fish out of water. When the opportunity to change careers presented itself, she ran full tilt back to the arts and she promises never to stray again. She’s still super scared of cubicles.
She also doesn't totally get why these things are always written in the third person but concedes that it does just sort of feel right."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Heather Woods (00:02):
Hello, you're listening to the SEL in Action
odcast, the podcast where wexplore what social emotional
earning and competencies lookike in educational and
rofessional settings. I'm yourost, Heather Woods. And today
e're speaking with Brenda Dunn,rt in jest a community engaged
artist. And I'm so excited totalk to you. I've taken a few of
(00:26):
your workshops and followed youon social media. And it's really
exciting for to have you here.
Thank you so much
Brenda Dunn (art in jest) (00:32):
Thank you for having me. It's lovely
to be here, Heather.
Heather Woods (00:36):
So what does it mean to be a community engaged
artist?
Brenda Dunn (art in jest (00:40):
That's a great question. Um, so as an
artist, a lot of people willask, what type of art you do?
and usually they mean, what toolDo you use, or what medium Do
you use, and I, I do a lot ofpainting and drawing and a
little bit of sculpture. But tobe a community engaged artist,
for for me means that I makethings but I mostly make things
(01:03):
happen. So creating something inand of itself, and then putting
it up on the wall, or in agallery, or sharing it on social
media is a wonderful part of myjob. And I'm very grateful to
have it, I love it very much.
And also, that is what I wouldconsider a closed creative loop.
So I am the beginning and theend of that loop, I make the
(01:26):
thing I put the thing up and Isay I made this thing, you can
buy it, you can look at it, youcannot. All those things, my job
here is done. And I am much morea fan of open creative loops,
where I might start something orbuild something or ask something
and try to get other people,general public, other artists,
workshop participants. But luckyor unlucky passers by whoever
(01:51):
tried to engage or interact orrespond and make something with
me. And I love both. They'reboth, they're both awesome. And
again, wonderful parts of myjob. But being a community
engaged artists more often meansthat the people who are
participating are as much a partof the creative process as I am
(02:12):
and that I love that. I lovethat. That's, that's my oxygen.
Heather Woods (02:21):
Yeah, that's fantastic. Um, and so you
mentioned like working with thecommunity and working with
people. So how do you go aboutbuilding those relationships and
creating that space where peoplefeel free to engage in the
process? Because, you know, artis sometimes something people
are very self conscious about,and creating things. So how do
(02:44):
you create a space where they'refree to engage with you in the
art and the process?
Brenda Dunn (art in jest (02:50):
That's a great question. Um, it
depends, it depends on theaudience. So a lot of times, the
work that I do is veryspecifically with people who for
some reason have a barrier toaccess, it could be financial,
it could be because maybethey're not neurotypical, it
could be geographic, it couldbe, you know, that they just
(03:12):
haven't happened to be exposedto a lot of art or art making.
And most of the time, in myexperience, the reason that
people tighten up and get selfconscious around making art is
because of a misunderstanding ofwhat that word means. And I
think for most of us, what we'reexposed to, when we think of
capital, a artist, is somebodywho is meant to be thinking and
(03:35):
working on this kind of verydifferent, and maybe even higher
plane, and they do somethingincredible and revolutionary.
And those really specialprecious people get their most
precious, special work cold andplaced in a gallery. And we're
supposed to stand in front ofit, and kind of hold our chins,
(03:57):
and not really pensively, andlike, if we're all so special,
then something really bighappens inside us when we're
looking at it. And I'm notsaying that those things don't
happen. And listen, they'reamazing too. But for me, making
art is a way of handling theworld. And it is as much a part
(04:17):
of my processing as eating andsleeping and drinking and
walking and working and living.
And I want to be able to sharethat with other people. So
usually, for me, the first thingthat helps is making a really
safe, really receptive room andas much as possible, that's a
room where we're allparticipating in a shared
(04:39):
experience. So it's reallyimportant for me as a
facilitator that I am as much apart of the process and I am
risking as much and asvulnerable in that moment as the
people who are participating andI try really hard not to ask
participate. Pinch to doanything that I haven't also
(05:00):
kind of tipped my hand on. Sothat's really important. And,
um, you mentioned social media,thank you for following me on
social media, a big part of mysocial media is, is being a bit
silly. And being a bit tongue incheek, even my whole persona
online is art, in jest, as injust getting the little tongue
(05:21):
in cheek, it's a little bit,it's a little bit funny, it's a
little bit silly. It's stillmeaningful and important and
wonderful. But the more often Ican help people get past that
self consciousness and move themto a place where creating is
just something we're doing, asopposed to a means to an end,
(05:43):
the the more we both get out ofthat relationship, and it is it
is very much a symbioticrelationship. Mm hmm.
Heather Woods (05:53):
And you touched on, I think, a really important
piece there. Regardingvulnerability, I think as you
know, creating space and wherepeople feel safe and kind of
engaging that empathy, andeverything, I think it really
comes down to a facilitators ora leaders kind of own
(06:15):
vulnerability and sharing thatso that thank you for sharing
that piece, because I think itgoes a long way. And it's often
a point that we overlook,because we might be self
conscious, or we're trying to bethe facilitator, we're trying to
be the leader, so we have to beperfect, right?
Brenda Dunn (art in jest) (06:35):
Or at least know where we're headed.
You know, that's a big Yeah,that's an expectation, for sure.
Yeah.
Heather Woods (06:42):
So I think being able to demonstrate that
vulnerability goes so far increating that space, and those
relationships where people canconnect and feel safe to, you
know, get a little sillysometimes. Um, and so you also
mentioned that, it's like,eating and drinking and
breathing to you. And so Iwonder if you can touch a little
(07:05):
bit more on that interest. Youknow, using art as, you know, a
way to kind of self regulate,and, you know, take care of
ourselves that sort of thing.
Can you touch a little more onthat?
Brenda Dunn (art in jest) (07:19):
For sure. So I think a lot of times
the things that people connectwith, and the workshops that I
teach specifically, is thatthey're meant to be designed so
that anybody can do them. Theydon't require any specific skill
set, they're not predicated onpeople coming to the table being
(07:40):
good at our bad at art familiarwith art. And when you take away
that idea, that you need to makesomething, quote unquote, good.
Right away, you free people upquite a little bit. So you let
them let go of the attachment toa particular outcome. And that
(08:03):
can be super, super helpful,that can be really freeing. So a
big part of the way that I useart making often is as much
about the physical process ofdrawing. So some of the things
that we touched on in theworkshop is using the feeling of
a pen or a pencil in your handor moving your mark making
(08:26):
device across a surface as a wayto kind of ground ourselves back
into our bodies, it can help uscheck in it can help us regulate
when we're escalating for someother reason, it's some, it's a
really, really good tool to usein your toolbox. And I do try to
design a lot of those workshops,specifically around people
(08:46):
getting tools for their toolbox,and emphasizing the idea that
everybody is deserving of goodtools. Everyone is deserving of
good coping strategies. Sooftentimes, I teach to at risk
youth or, you know, members ofthe mental health profession,
(09:07):
teachers, there's often a lot ofmedical professionals that are
in that practice. So a hugerange of people that for
whatever reason, would reallybenefit from the ability to
ground themselves, find somekind of center or find some kind
of calm and whatever tools wecan provide people to do that,
the better. And I'm reallytransparent in the workshops
(09:30):
that these don't have tonecessarily be the first thing
you go to, they don't even haveto be the 10th that you go to if
counting backwards from 10.
looking deep brass is what getsyou there quicker, amazing. And
I just want everybody to haveall of the tools that exist at
their disposal because we areall deserving of of those tools.
And drawing is just a great lineinto that. It's also a really
(09:54):
great way to process so When youtake it a little bit away from
just the kinetic, and thephysical act of moving your hand
on a page and a little bit moreinto the idea of using drawing
as a means of storytelling, ornarrating, it can also be a
really powerful tool for takingthings that exist inside us that
(10:16):
are maybe convoluted, or maybethat we're struggling with and
just putting them in a placeoutside of our body. And there
is a lot of great research and alot of arguments for why that
can be a helpful and a healthything. And drawing is just
another tool to have in yourarsenal to be able to do that
with as much ease in facility aspossible.
Heather Woods (10:40):
Mm hmm.
Certainly. And, yeah, I mean,just having that that toolbox, I
think, one of the things that,so I work with teacher,
teachers, I work at the graduatelevel two, their teachers, their
administrators, their healthprofessionals, and in my social
emotional learning courses, Ithink that is, one of the pieces
(11:00):
that they really take away isthe importance of that
grounding, and just that selfawareness, within themselves to
be able to, you know, take astep back, reflect, to work
through something that sort ofthing. And, as someone that's
always been a little morecreative, I really appreciate
(11:21):
that you've made thoseconnections to art and and
working with that with similarpopulations.
Brenda Dunn (art in jest) (11:33):
Those are the populations I think a
lot of times that sort ofnaturally, self select, to want
to keep those muscles in shape.
So some of it is the fact thatit's selection, but also when
I'm brought in as a facilitatorto work. You know, I've done
some work with the Children'sAid Foundation, the adoption
Council of Canada, Ottawa, innercity arts, like there's a lot of
groups that are seeking out thetool to offer to a specific
(11:57):
population, and there are a lotof populations who are naturally
self selecting to seek out thetool. And I just want to make it
downhill from there in eitherdirection. or someone's looking
for it for you. That's amazing.
We'll try to make it easy forthat point. Oh,
Heather Woods (12:15):
yeah. And so I wonder also, um, you know, as
we're facilitating and kind ofhelping others work through, you
know, either coping strategiesor having that toolbox, building
their own self awareness tobuild through things. As an
artist, what what self awarenessskills do you find that you're
(12:38):
really engaging with? You know,whether it's, you know, just
knowing yourself, knowing whoyou are, and how that conveys
through your work? Anythingthere that might be, you know,
of interest for you?
Unknown (12:53):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think being being an artist or
being a kind of a professionalcreative. it necessarily means
sort of being a meta participantin your own life. So a big part
of where my content comes fromis the ability to observe myself
and my own reactions, that's areally useful skill, it's a huge
(13:15):
part of what I need my brain todo to be able to notice. And in
order to notice, there are otherneeds that I need to make sure
are met. So I'm better at beinga professional creative when I
monitor my own self care when Itry to make sure that my own
inputs are equal to or greaterthan my required outputs. I also
(13:37):
make really conscious choicesthat most of the time when I'm
putting out content, a huge partof my social media is actually
comics and I keep a reallysimilar format to all of my
comics, they're always fourcandle comics in a square
Instagram is my social mediaweapon of choice. So you know,
(13:58):
that's, that's kind of theformat dictates the form a
little bit. But in almost all ofthose comics, a huge part of
that is observing kind of theminutiae, and the everyday of
myself and my reactions and abig part of what I love doing in
those comics is pointing outthings that we kind of all have
(14:19):
in common, but also wheretypically I'm the butt of the
joke in almost all of thosecomics. So the ability to
observe myself for better andfor worse and to take my work
really seriously but myself notat all seriously is a really
good balance for me to make surethat I feel comfortable and
(14:39):
healthy and joyful in sharingthings that are not flattering,
that are very silly, that areself deprecating without being
unkind, and that's somethingthat I really try to make sure
as part of The ecosystem of anyroom where I'm teaching, we want
to make sure that whereverpossible, we're being kind. And
(15:01):
that we're observing ourselvesand processing in a way that
belongs to us and doesn'tnecessarily kind of attack
someone else or or put the blameor assign an outcome to
something outside of ourselvesnot because we can't feel those
things, feelings or facts,absolutely feel your feelings.
(15:21):
But also, if at all possible inthis sort of never ending quest
to stay grounded, observe myselfand then let it go, I find it
really helpful to name thethings about myself that I think
are funny and silly, put themout for the world to see.
Because invariably, you gothundreds of people that you
(15:42):
didn't even know to call mygosh, Me too. Me too, to weigh
me to also more so are like meto almost Let me tell you about
the funny thing that I did. Andthere is nothing more validating
and reassuring when you'retrying to process and dump some
of this stuff and let it go thento have all of these people
(16:04):
again, for me anyway, to look atsomething and go. Absolutely. I
see, I see that I do that I seeme. And I think creatives often
that's just part of our instinctis to hold things up and say
anyone does anybody. Doesanybody having this? Also, does
anybody recognize this? And tohave the rest of the world go?
(16:25):
Actually? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I dorecognize that. So
Heather Woods (16:29):
yeah, no, that's fantastic. And one point that
stood out there is the selfdeprecating, but being kind to
yourself at the same time. It's,it's a delicate balance, I
think, you know, like,
Brenda Dunn (art in jes (16:45):
clocks, sort of how you feel. Also, I
really close watch on how do Ifeel? After I tell this joke? Do
I feel bad? Because if I feelbad telling it about myself,
probably someone else is goingto feel bad about me, talking to
them. And and I, I tried toimagine my audience as much as I
imagined myself as a personwhose opinion I value and whose
(17:08):
respect I want. And I see noreason not to pay myself that
same kindness in the interest ofkeeping that relationship
healthy. Why would I not try touse kind words, when I'm talking
to myself? The same way I wouldbe else?
Heather Woods (17:25):
Yeah, exactly.
And so I think one thing that Iwant to touch on is kind of the
relationship building that isinvolved in being a community
engaged artist. So I think, youknow, there's, for anyone that's
kind of looking at this, it's,it's how do you start making
those connections? And I know,you have quite a few connections
(17:45):
within Ottawa, like with makerhosts and different wallets,
different kinds of institutionswithin our city. So how do you
go forming those relationshipsthat are, you know, fruitful to
each other? And, you know, giveyou a platform to do the work
that you do?
Brenda Dunn (art in jest) (18:06):
Yeah, um, I mean, there's a few.
There's a few ways. And I think,I think one of the things that's
important to keep in mind isthat they really are
relationships. And like anyrelationship, it must be
nurtured and mutually beneficialin order to be healthy. So I
have relationships withindividuals that are friends or
(18:28):
colleagues. I have relationshipswith organizations who have
supported me, I haverelationships with businesses
who have provided spaces orplatforms, or access and open
doors. And in all of thoseinstances, I try really hard to
be mindful of what I am bringingto the relationship the same way
(18:49):
I would to any individualfriendship or relationship or
interaction with a workshopparticipants. So if we're
talking sort of early careerchoices, I would say one of the
smartest things that I cansuggest is volunteering, find
the people who are doing thework you would like to do and
join them and offer to do thethings that other people don't
(19:13):
necessarily want to do. So whenI first started I, I was a
member of the young arts leaderscollective, I now act as kind of
an ambassador for them througharts network, but I also
volunteered with arts networkOttawa, I did some volunteering
for events at the Ottawa ArtGallery. Anytime there were
(19:34):
events or spaces, I would try tomake myself available. I helped
do some organizing of an artspace festival in our
neighborhood and all of thosethings allowed me to build
relationships to people where Iwas really making sure to offer
value because before I ask forsomething or need something,
(19:54):
it's a beautiful thing to beable to Say, can I help you with
that? And can't say, Can I helpyou with that? Because sometimes
we don't, we don't have thatoption. The next best thing is
to say, Can I ask your opinion,people love to be asked what
they think. So if you see peoplethat are doing work that you
(20:16):
admire, ask them for aninformational interview, ask if
you can find out a bit moreabout how they got to where they
got most people really, reallytreasure, their story, because
it's the thing that they workedthe hardest for. And if you can
sincerely go to someone and sayI would so benefit from your
(20:37):
story, if you were comfortablesharing it with me and mean it,
don't do it, if you don't meanit. But if you mean it, a lot of
people are incredibly generouswith their time, their
experience. So I think that wasa huge part of building a lot of
those relationships. And once Ihad been able to do that I still
(20:58):
now and always learning from thepartners that I work with what
is beneficial to them and theircommunity and making sure that
there is something of value thatI can add. So if it's
businesses, I try to think ofwhat might add value to them in
their spaces, or what might besomething that would engage
(21:19):
their audience, or is there away that I can be celebrating
them as a partner or showcasinga product or shouting out just
the fact that they're goodcitizens of the community to
build awareness and, and all ofthose things are things that a
business will often really seevalue in and social media is,
(21:40):
has made that accessible toeverybody being able to offer
people cool things to put intheir social media feed, oh, my
goodness, everybody loves that.
It's wonderful. It's a wonderfulthing to do. And, you know, when
I'm working with organizations,I, I try to think really
mindfully about what would bebeneficial to their members. And
(22:01):
I try to pick partners who knowthe people accessing their
services really, really well. Soyou know, I've done some work
with a program through thechildren's aid in Ottawa, and
the facilitator of that programknows her participants so well.
And I would trust hercompletely, to understand what
(22:21):
would be a value to herparticipants. So she comes to me
with a project or a program, ora suggestion, I will do
everything I can to buildsomething that will be a value
to her and her participants. AndI will offer it to her and say,
comb through this, have one ofyour participants comb through
(22:42):
it, tell me if you feel likethere's value Tell me if you
feel like we're on the righttrack, and the people who are
doing really, really good workin the community, they're the
ones that will naturallygravitate to that kind of
relationship, and they willreturn the favor inclined. And
then this hopefully, reallybeautifully balanced
(23:06):
relationship that serveseverybody and takes advantage of
nobody just like a goodrelationship should.
Heather Woods (23:15):
Yeah, certainly.
And I think it the people thatyou're working with, and what
you're looking for in thoseorganizations and relationships
reflects kind of how you engageas well with like your, you
know, participants in a workshopand everything right is is
really connecting and getting toknow people certainly, are there
(23:35):
any skills that you kind of haveseen really evolve over your
career as a community engagedartist? It's a big question.
Unknown (23:48):
That's okay, we're not here for the little ones. He
wanted to know my favorite callit done it on Instagram. Um, you
Yeah, I, you know, I came to mycareer as a community engaged
artist with some experience incorporate environments and some
experience in the mental healthfield. So I brought some of
(24:11):
those things to the table. Andthose skills continue to serve
me very, very well. And I'mimmensely grateful to the places
and people that honed them in mebecause those can really be
superpowers, the artisticcommunity, especially the
business stuff. But the thingsthat I've noticed really evolve
(24:33):
over the course of my career inthe arts, that I didn't
necessarily have a social media.
For starters, I did not have agreat understanding of social
media when I first started thisand having an online presence
and to your point, being able toput something out that brings
(24:54):
back the type of partnershipthat I'm looking for. For is
really, really valuable. And abig part of that, for me is
authenticity. So you know, artand just is the the online
presence, but it's also me I amthat brand. And it's really
important for me to be asauthentic as possible because
(25:16):
everything that I'm putting outis going to be a reflection of
the type of experience thatpeople are going to get if they
hire me to facilitate or do ateam building exercise or run a
workshop or even commissioned mefor an art piece. And I want
people to know that and beexcited about it going in, it is
(25:38):
mutually beneficial for us. Andpeople are fast to get what they
signed on for. So learning howto balance that authenticity,
especially in the social mediaspace, and learning how to
curate my vulnerability in a waythat is sustainable, especially
because it is the internet, youknow, I'm really lucky to exist
(26:00):
in a super positive, supportivecorner of the internet, but it
is still the internet and alsohoning my ability to manage and
balance making the work withdocumenting and sharing. That's
something that takes a lot ofpractice. And some days are
(26:20):
better than others for sure. Butbeing able to share
authentically, and do so in away that is still really
sustainable for me, I think issomething I had to really,
really practice.
Heather Woods (26:40):
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I mean, that takes a lot of, you
know, self awareness andreflection of like, what works
for you and how you want to, youknow, be authentic? Well, what
does it mean to be authentic?
And, you know, I think that thatrequires a lot of self
knowledge. In that process.
(27:01):
Anything else that you kind ofwant to add about, you know, art
or the power of art in, youknow, self awareness and self
management? any of it.
Unknown (27:13):
I mean, it's a superpower, for sure, but it's a
superpower that we all actuallyhave and have access to. And,
and one of the things that Ithink I would want to emphasize
this, that it's not magic. It'snot unattainable. It's not
rooted in talent. It issomething that is available to
(27:35):
everybody, it is absolutelysomething that everybody could
do. And if it's of interest toyou, if it is of a benefit, then
it's something that you deserve.
The idea that this is somethingprecious or special or esoteric,
I would just want to do awaywith that idea. I know a gallery
(27:57):
can seem intimidating, theydon't do it on purpose, they're
trying to give the ground up.
Beautiful works deserve, itdoesn't mean that you're
uninvited, and a big part ofcommunity engaged artists making
sure that everybody is invitedto the table. So if if that's
something that's of interest toyou, I would strongly encourage
(28:19):
everybody to just step throughthat moment of discomfort if you
can, and just pick up a pencil.
I there is there is no moreradical act of self care than
doing something that makes youuncomfortable, and then standing
in it and owning it. We're sodeserving of that feeling.
Heather Woods (28:39):
Yeah, certainly pick up the pencil, throw some
paint around whatever it mightbe. Excellent. Well, thank you
so much for sharing today. It'sbeen a really great experience
talking with you. I mean, I am alifelong dabbler in art history
(29:01):
and stuff and often hesitate toput artists but I'm getting more
comfortable with doing it onkind of my, you know, BIOS and
stuff. But yeah, you know, and Ithink we touched on so many
aspects of, you know, the valueof art and being an community
engaged artist and what thatmeans and the level of self
(29:23):
awareness and kind ofrelationships that you're
building, not only to buildyourself as like having the
connections to be able toprovide for the community, but
also just within the spaces thatyou hold with other artists and
participants. And so, soimportant and just kind of the
(29:45):
value, as you mentioned, youknow, with Instagram with
sharing your comics, that sortof thing of valuing others, but
also valuing yourself and Ithink that is huge. So I really
appreciate you taking Taking thetime to speak with me today. Um,
if you want to connect withBrenda, I believe it's our
(30:07):
ingest on pretty well everyplatform.
Unknown (30:10):
Even if you just Google Art ingest ART i n JEST. It's
me, I come up. It's just my faceall those things. It's all been
Heather Woods (30:20):
fantastic. Thank you so much, Brenda. And I'm
sure we'll be connecting againsoon.
Brenda Dunn (art in jest) (30:28):
It was my pleasure, thank you
Heather Woods (30:30):
Thank you. And so you've been listening to the SE
in Action podcast, the podcat where we explore what soci
l emotional learning looks lie today in the art world. And s
, if you want to learn morer engage in discussion, feel fr
e to connect with us on Instagra, Twitter, or Facebook or t
e website, SEL-in-action.comAnd, you know, we feel free
(30:57):
o leave a review on Apple podcsts and we hope to talk to yo
soon. Bye bye.
Hello, you're listening to the SEL in Action
odcast, the podcast where wexplore what social emotional
earning and competencies lookike in educational and
rofessional settings. I'm yourost, Heather Woods. And today
e're speaking with Brenda Dunn,rt in jest a community engaged
artist. And I'm so excited totalk to you. I've taken a few of
(00:26):
your workshops and followed youon social media. And it's really
exciting for to have you here.
Thank you so much
Brenda Dunn (art in jest) (00:32):
Thank you for having me. It's lovely
to be here, Heather.
Heather Woods (00:36):
So what does it mean to be a community engaged
artist?
Brenda Dunn (art in jest (00:40):
That's a great question. Um, so as an
artist, a lot of people willask, what type of art you do?
and usually they mean, what toolDo you use, or what medium Do
you use, and I, I do a lot ofpainting and drawing and a
little bit of sculpture. But tobe a community engaged artist,
for for me means that I makethings but I mostly make things
(01:03):
happen. So creating something inand of itself, and then putting
it up on the wall, or in agallery, or sharing it on social
media is a wonderful part of myjob. And I'm very grateful to
have it, I love it very much.
And also, that is what I wouldconsider a closed creative loop.
So I am the beginning and theend of that loop, I make the
(01:26):
thing I put the thing up and Isay I made this thing, you can
buy it, you can look at it, youcannot. All those things, my job
here is done. And I am much morea fan of open creative loops,
where I might start something orbuild something or ask something
and try to get other people,general public, other artists,
workshop participants. But luckyor unlucky passers by whoever
(01:51):
tried to engage or interact orrespond and make something with
me. And I love both. They'reboth, they're both awesome. And
again, wonderful parts of myjob. But being a community
engaged artists more often meansthat the people who are
participating are as much a partof the creative process as I am
(02:12):
and that I love that. I lovethat. That's, that's my oxygen.
Heather Woods (02:21):
Yeah, that's fantastic. Um, and so you
mentioned like working with thecommunity and working with
people. So how do you go aboutbuilding those relationships and
creating that space where peoplefeel free to engage in the
process? Because, you know, artis sometimes something people
are very self conscious about,and creating things. So how do
(02:44):
you create a space where they'refree to engage with you in the
art and the process?
Brenda Dunn (art in jest (02:50):
That's a great question. Um, it
depends, it depends on theaudience. So a lot of times, the
work that I do is veryspecifically with people who for
some reason have a barrier toaccess, it could be financial,
it could be because maybethey're not neurotypical, it
could be geographic, it couldbe, you know, that they just
(03:12):
haven't happened to be exposedto a lot of art or art making.
And most of the time, in myexperience, the reason that
people tighten up and get selfconscious around making art is
because of a misunderstanding ofwhat that word means. And I
think for most of us, what we'reexposed to, when we think of
capital, a artist, is somebodywho is meant to be thinking and
(03:35):
working on this kind of verydifferent, and maybe even higher
plane, and they do somethingincredible and revolutionary.
And those really specialprecious people get their most
precious, special work cold andplaced in a gallery. And we're
supposed to stand in front ofit, and kind of hold our chins,
(03:57):
and not really pensively, andlike, if we're all so special,
then something really bighappens inside us when we're
looking at it. And I'm notsaying that those things don't
happen. And listen, they'reamazing too. But for me, making
art is a way of handling theworld. And it is as much a part
(04:17):
of my processing as eating andsleeping and drinking and
walking and working and living.
And I want to be able to sharethat with other people. So
usually, for me, the first thingthat helps is making a really
safe, really receptive room andas much as possible, that's a
room where we're allparticipating in a shared
(04:39):
experience. So it's reallyimportant for me as a
facilitator that I am as much apart of the process and I am
risking as much and asvulnerable in that moment as the
people who are participating andI try really hard not to ask
participate. Pinch to doanything that I haven't also
(05:00):
kind of tipped my hand on. Sothat's really important. And,
um, you mentioned social media,thank you for following me on
social media, a big part of mysocial media is, is being a bit
silly. And being a bit tongue incheek, even my whole persona
online is art, in jest, as injust getting the little tongue
(05:21):
in cheek, it's a little bit,it's a little bit funny, it's a
little bit silly. It's stillmeaningful and important and
wonderful. But the more often Ican help people get past that
self consciousness and move themto a place where creating is
just something we're doing, asopposed to a means to an end,
(05:43):
the the more we both get out ofthat relationship, and it is it
is very much a symbioticrelationship. Mm hmm.
Heather Woods (05:53):
And you touched on, I think, a really important
piece there. Regardingvulnerability, I think as you
know, creating space and wherepeople feel safe and kind of
engaging that empathy, andeverything, I think it really
comes down to a facilitators ora leaders kind of own
(06:15):
vulnerability and sharing thatso that thank you for sharing
that piece, because I think itgoes a long way. And it's often
a point that we overlook,because we might be self
conscious, or we're trying to bethe facilitator, we're trying to
be the leader, so we have to beperfect, right?
Brenda Dunn (art in jest) (06:35):
Or at least know where we're headed.
You know, that's a big Yeah,that's an expectation, for sure.
Yeah.
Heather Woods (06:42):
So I think being able to demonstrate that
vulnerability goes so far increating that space, and those
relationships where people canconnect and feel safe to, you
know, get a little sillysometimes. Um, and so you also
mentioned that, it's like,eating and drinking and
breathing to you. And so Iwonder if you can touch a little
(07:05):
bit more on that interest. Youknow, using art as, you know, a
way to kind of self regulate,and, you know, take care of
ourselves that sort of thing.
Can you touch a little more onthat?
Brenda Dunn (art in jest) (07:19):
For sure. So I think a lot of times
the things that people connectwith, and the workshops that I
teach specifically, is thatthey're meant to be designed so
that anybody can do them. Theydon't require any specific skill
set, they're not predicated onpeople coming to the table being
(07:40):
good at our bad at art familiarwith art. And when you take away
that idea, that you need to makesomething, quote unquote, good.
Right away, you free people upquite a little bit. So you let
them let go of the attachment toa particular outcome. And that
(08:03):
can be super, super helpful,that can be really freeing. So a
big part of the way that I useart making often is as much
about the physical process ofdrawing. So some of the things
that we touched on in theworkshop is using the feeling of
a pen or a pencil in your handor moving your mark making
(08:26):
device across a surface as a wayto kind of ground ourselves back
into our bodies, it can help uscheck in it can help us regulate
when we're escalating for someother reason, it's some, it's a
really, really good tool to usein your toolbox. And I do try to
design a lot of those workshops,specifically around people
(08:46):
getting tools for their toolbox,and emphasizing the idea that
everybody is deserving of goodtools. Everyone is deserving of
good coping strategies. Sooftentimes, I teach to at risk
youth or, you know, members ofthe mental health profession,
(09:07):
teachers, there's often a lot ofmedical professionals that are
in that practice. So a hugerange of people that for
whatever reason, would reallybenefit from the ability to
ground themselves, find somekind of center or find some kind
of calm and whatever tools wecan provide people to do that,
the better. And I'm reallytransparent in the workshops
(09:30):
that these don't have tonecessarily be the first thing
you go to, they don't even haveto be the 10th that you go to if
counting backwards from 10.
looking deep brass is what getsyou there quicker, amazing. And
I just want everybody to haveall of the tools that exist at
their disposal because we areall deserving of of those tools.
And drawing is just a great lineinto that. It's also a really
(09:54):
great way to process so When youtake it a little bit away from
just the kinetic, and thephysical act of moving your hand
on a page and a little bit moreinto the idea of using drawing
as a means of storytelling, ornarrating, it can also be a
really powerful tool for takingthings that exist inside us that
(10:16):
are maybe convoluted, or maybethat we're struggling with and
just putting them in a placeoutside of our body. And there
is a lot of great research and alot of arguments for why that
can be a helpful and a healthything. And drawing is just
another tool to have in yourarsenal to be able to do that
with as much ease in facility aspossible.
Heather Woods (10:40):
Mm hmm.
Certainly. And, yeah, I mean,just having that that toolbox, I
think, one of the things that,so I work with teacher,
teachers, I work at the graduatelevel two, their teachers, their
administrators, their healthprofessionals, and in my social
emotional learning courses, Ithink that is, one of the pieces
(11:00):
that they really take away isthe importance of that
grounding, and just that selfawareness, within themselves to
be able to, you know, take astep back, reflect, to work
through something that sort ofthing. And, as someone that's
always been a little morecreative, I really appreciate
(11:21):
that you've made thoseconnections to art and and
working with that with similarpopulations.
Brenda Dunn (art in jest) (11:33):
Those are the populations I think a
lot of times that sort ofnaturally, self select, to want
to keep those muscles in shape.
So some of it is the fact thatit's selection, but also when
I'm brought in as a facilitatorto work. You know, I've done
some work with the Children'sAid Foundation, the adoption
Council of Canada, Ottawa, innercity arts, like there's a lot of
groups that are seeking out thetool to offer to a specific
(11:57):
population, and there are a lotof populations who are naturally
self selecting to seek out thetool. And I just want to make it
downhill from there in eitherdirection. or someone's looking
for it for you. That's amazing.
We'll try to make it easy forthat point. Oh,
Heather Woods (12:15):
yeah. And so I wonder also, um, you know, as
we're facilitating and kind ofhelping others work through, you
know, either coping strategiesor having that toolbox, building
their own self awareness tobuild through things. As an
artist, what what self awarenessskills do you find that you're
(12:38):
really engaging with? You know,whether it's, you know, just
knowing yourself, knowing whoyou are, and how that conveys
through your work? Anythingthere that might be, you know,
of interest for you?
Unknown (12:53):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think being being an artist or
being a kind of a professionalcreative. it necessarily means
sort of being a meta participantin your own life. So a big part
of where my content comes fromis the ability to observe myself
and my own reactions, that's areally useful skill, it's a huge
(13:15):
part of what I need my brain todo to be able to notice. And in
order to notice, there are otherneeds that I need to make sure
are met. So I'm better at beinga professional creative when I
monitor my own self care when Itry to make sure that my own
inputs are equal to or greaterthan my required outputs. I also
(13:37):
make really conscious choicesthat most of the time when I'm
putting out content, a huge partof my social media is actually
comics and I keep a reallysimilar format to all of my
comics, they're always fourcandle comics in a square
Instagram is my social mediaweapon of choice. So you know,
(13:58):
that's, that's kind of theformat dictates the form a
little bit. But in almost all ofthose comics, a huge part of
that is observing kind of theminutiae, and the everyday of
myself and my reactions and abig part of what I love doing in
those comics is pointing outthings that we kind of all have
(14:19):
in common, but also wheretypically I'm the butt of the
joke in almost all of thosecomics. So the ability to
observe myself for better andfor worse and to take my work
really seriously but myself notat all seriously is a really
good balance for me to make surethat I feel comfortable and
(14:39):
healthy and joyful in sharingthings that are not flattering,
that are very silly, that areself deprecating without being
unkind, and that's somethingthat I really try to make sure
as part of The ecosystem of anyroom where I'm teaching, we want
to make sure that whereverpossible, we're being kind. And
(15:01):
that we're observing ourselvesand processing in a way that
belongs to us and doesn'tnecessarily kind of attack
someone else or or put the blameor assign an outcome to
something outside of ourselvesnot because we can't feel those
things, feelings or facts,absolutely feel your feelings.
(15:21):
But also, if at all possible inthis sort of never ending quest
to stay grounded, observe myselfand then let it go, I find it
really helpful to name thethings about myself that I think
are funny and silly, put themout for the world to see.
Because invariably, you gothundreds of people that you
(15:42):
didn't even know to call mygosh, Me too. Me too, to weigh
me to also more so are like meto almost Let me tell you about
the funny thing that I did. Andthere is nothing more validating
and reassuring when you'retrying to process and dump some
of this stuff and let it go thento have all of these people
(16:04):
again, for me anyway, to look atsomething and go. Absolutely. I
see, I see that I do that I seeme. And I think creatives often
that's just part of our instinctis to hold things up and say
anyone does anybody. Doesanybody having this? Also, does
anybody recognize this? And tohave the rest of the world go?
(16:25):
Actually? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I dorecognize that. So
Heather Woods (16:29):
yeah, no, that's fantastic. And one point that
stood out there is the selfdeprecating, but being kind to
yourself at the same time. It's,it's a delicate balance, I
think, you know, like,
Brenda Dunn (art in jes (16:45):
clocks, sort of how you feel. Also, I
really close watch on how do Ifeel? After I tell this joke? Do
I feel bad? Because if I feelbad telling it about myself,
probably someone else is goingto feel bad about me, talking to
them. And and I, I tried toimagine my audience as much as I
imagined myself as a personwhose opinion I value and whose
(17:08):
respect I want. And I see noreason not to pay myself that
same kindness in the interest ofkeeping that relationship
healthy. Why would I not try touse kind words, when I'm talking
to myself? The same way I wouldbe else?
Heather Woods (17:25):
Yeah, exactly.
And so I think one thing that Iwant to touch on is kind of the
relationship building that isinvolved in being a community
engaged artist. So I think, youknow, there's, for anyone that's
kind of looking at this, it's,it's how do you start making
those connections? And I know,you have quite a few connections
(17:45):
within Ottawa, like with makerhosts and different wallets,
different kinds of institutionswithin our city. So how do you
go forming those relationshipsthat are, you know, fruitful to
each other? And, you know, giveyou a platform to do the work
that you do?
Brenda Dunn (art in jest) (18:06):
Yeah, um, I mean, there's a few.
There's a few ways. And I think,I think one of the things that's
important to keep in mind isthat they really are
relationships. And like anyrelationship, it must be
nurtured and mutually beneficialin order to be healthy. So I
have relationships withindividuals that are friends or
(18:28):
colleagues. I have relationshipswith organizations who have
supported me, I haverelationships with businesses
who have provided spaces orplatforms, or access and open
doors. And in all of thoseinstances, I try really hard to
be mindful of what I am bringingto the relationship the same way
(18:49):
I would to any individualfriendship or relationship or
interaction with a workshopparticipants. So if we're
talking sort of early careerchoices, I would say one of the
smartest things that I cansuggest is volunteering, find
the people who are doing thework you would like to do and
join them and offer to do thethings that other people don't
(19:13):
necessarily want to do. So whenI first started I, I was a
member of the young arts leaderscollective, I now act as kind of
an ambassador for them througharts network, but I also
volunteered with arts networkOttawa, I did some volunteering
for events at the Ottawa ArtGallery. Anytime there were
(19:34):
events or spaces, I would try tomake myself available. I helped
do some organizing of an artspace festival in our
neighborhood and all of thosethings allowed me to build
relationships to people where Iwas really making sure to offer
value because before I ask forsomething or need something,
(19:54):
it's a beautiful thing to beable to Say, can I help you with
that? And can't say, Can I helpyou with that? Because sometimes
we don't, we don't have thatoption. The next best thing is
to say, Can I ask your opinion,people love to be asked what
they think. So if you see peoplethat are doing work that you
(20:16):
admire, ask them for aninformational interview, ask if
you can find out a bit moreabout how they got to where they
got most people really, reallytreasure, their story, because
it's the thing that they workedthe hardest for. And if you can
sincerely go to someone and sayI would so benefit from your
(20:37):
story, if you were comfortablesharing it with me and mean it,
don't do it, if you don't meanit. But if you mean it, a lot of
people are incredibly generouswith their time, their
experience. So I think that wasa huge part of building a lot of
those relationships. And once Ihad been able to do that I still
(20:58):
now and always learning from thepartners that I work with what
is beneficial to them and theircommunity and making sure that
there is something of value thatI can add. So if it's
businesses, I try to think ofwhat might add value to them in
their spaces, or what might besomething that would engage
(21:19):
their audience, or is there away that I can be celebrating
them as a partner or showcasinga product or shouting out just
the fact that they're goodcitizens of the community to
build awareness and, and all ofthose things are things that a
business will often really seevalue in and social media is,
(21:40):
has made that accessible toeverybody being able to offer
people cool things to put intheir social media feed, oh, my
goodness, everybody loves that.
It's wonderful. It's a wonderfulthing to do. And, you know, when
I'm working with organizations,I, I try to think really
mindfully about what would bebeneficial to their members. And
(22:01):
I try to pick partners who knowthe people accessing their
services really, really well. Soyou know, I've done some work
with a program through thechildren's aid in Ottawa, and
the facilitator of that programknows her participants so well.
And I would trust hercompletely, to understand what
(22:21):
would be a value to herparticipants. So she comes to me
with a project or a program, ora suggestion, I will do
everything I can to buildsomething that will be a value
to her and her participants. AndI will offer it to her and say,
comb through this, have one ofyour participants comb through
(22:42):
it, tell me if you feel likethere's value Tell me if you
feel like we're on the righttrack, and the people who are
doing really, really good workin the community, they're the
ones that will naturallygravitate to that kind of
relationship, and they willreturn the favor inclined. And
then this hopefully, reallybeautifully balanced
(23:06):
relationship that serveseverybody and takes advantage of
nobody just like a goodrelationship should.
Heather Woods (23:15):
Yeah, certainly.
And I think it the people thatyou're working with, and what
you're looking for in thoseorganizations and relationships
reflects kind of how you engageas well with like your, you
know, participants in a workshopand everything right is is
really connecting and getting toknow people certainly, are there
(23:35):
any skills that you kind of haveseen really evolve over your
career as a community engagedartist? It's a big question.
Unknown (23:48):
That's okay, we're not here for the little ones. He
wanted to know my favorite callit done it on Instagram. Um, you
Yeah, I, you know, I came to mycareer as a community engaged
artist with some experience incorporate environments and some
experience in the mental healthfield. So I brought some of
(24:11):
those things to the table. Andthose skills continue to serve
me very, very well. And I'mimmensely grateful to the places
and people that honed them in mebecause those can really be
superpowers, the artisticcommunity, especially the
business stuff. But the thingsthat I've noticed really evolve
(24:33):
over the course of my career inthe arts, that I didn't
necessarily have a social media.
For starters, I did not have agreat understanding of social
media when I first started thisand having an online presence
and to your point, being able toput something out that brings
(24:54):
back the type of partnershipthat I'm looking for. For is
really, really valuable. And abig part of that, for me is
authenticity. So you know, artand just is the the online
presence, but it's also me I amthat brand. And it's really
important for me to be asauthentic as possible because
(25:16):
everything that I'm putting outis going to be a reflection of
the type of experience thatpeople are going to get if they
hire me to facilitate or do ateam building exercise or run a
workshop or even commissioned mefor an art piece. And I want
people to know that and beexcited about it going in, it is
(25:38):
mutually beneficial for us. Andpeople are fast to get what they
signed on for. So learning howto balance that authenticity,
especially in the social mediaspace, and learning how to
curate my vulnerability in a waythat is sustainable, especially
because it is the internet, youknow, I'm really lucky to exist
(26:00):
in a super positive, supportivecorner of the internet, but it
is still the internet and alsohoning my ability to manage and
balance making the work withdocumenting and sharing. That's
something that takes a lot ofpractice. And some days are
(26:20):
better than others for sure. Butbeing able to share
authentically, and do so in away that is still really
sustainable for me, I think issomething I had to really,
really practice.
Heather Woods (26:40):
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I mean, that takes a lot of, you
know, self awareness andreflection of like, what works
for you and how you want to, youknow, be authentic? Well, what
does it mean to be authentic?
And, you know, I think that thatrequires a lot of self
knowledge. In that process.
(27:01):
Anything else that you kind ofwant to add about, you know, art
or the power of art in, youknow, self awareness and self
management? any of it.
Unknown (27:13):
I mean, it's a superpower, for sure, but it's a
superpower that we all actuallyhave and have access to. And,
and one of the things that Ithink I would want to emphasize
this, that it's not magic. It'snot unattainable. It's not
rooted in talent. It issomething that is available to
(27:35):
everybody, it is absolutelysomething that everybody could
do. And if it's of interest toyou, if it is of a benefit, then
it's something that you deserve.
The idea that this is somethingprecious or special or esoteric,
I would just want to do awaywith that idea. I know a gallery
(27:57):
can seem intimidating, theydon't do it on purpose, they're
trying to give the ground up.
Beautiful works deserve, itdoesn't mean that you're
uninvited, and a big part ofcommunity engaged artists making
sure that everybody is invitedto the table. So if if that's
something that's of interest toyou, I would strongly encourage
(28:19):
everybody to just step throughthat moment of discomfort if you
can, and just pick up a pencil.
I there is there is no moreradical act of self care than
doing something that makes youuncomfortable, and then standing
in it and owning it. We're sodeserving of that feeling.
Heather Woods (28:39):
Yeah, certainly pick up the pencil, throw some
paint around whatever it mightbe. Excellent. Well, thank you
so much for sharing today. It'sbeen a really great experience
talking with you. I mean, I am alifelong dabbler in art history
(29:01):
and stuff and often hesitate toput artists but I'm getting more
comfortable with doing it onkind of my, you know, BIOS and
stuff. But yeah, you know, and Ithink we touched on so many
aspects of, you know, the valueof art and being an community
engaged artist and what thatmeans and the level of self
(29:23):
awareness and kind ofrelationships that you're
building, not only to buildyourself as like having the
connections to be able toprovide for the community, but
also just within the spaces thatyou hold with other artists and
participants. And so, soimportant and just kind of the
(29:45):
value, as you mentioned, youknow, with Instagram with
sharing your comics, that sortof thing of valuing others, but
also valuing yourself and Ithink that is huge. So I really
appreciate you taking Taking thetime to speak with me today. Um,
if you want to connect withBrenda, I believe it's our
(30:07):
ingest on pretty well everyplatform.
Unknown (30:10):
Even if you just Google Art ingest ART i n JEST. It's
me, I come up. It's just my faceall those things. It's all been
Heather Woods (30:20):
fantastic. Thank you so much, Brenda. And I'm
sure we'll be connecting againsoon.
Brenda Dunn (art in jest) (30:28):
It was my pleasure, thank you
Heather Woods (30:30):
Thank you. And so you've been listening to the SE
in Action podcast, the podcat where we explore what soci
l emotional learning looks lie today in the art world. And s
, if you want to learn morer engage in discussion, feel fr
e to connect with us on Instagra, Twitter, or Facebook or t
e website, SEL-in-action.comAnd, you know, we feel free
(30:57):
o leave a review on Apple podcsts and we hope to talk to yo
soon. Bye bye.
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