January 22, 2025 • 47 mins
How does homeschooling fit into India’s diverse cultural and educational landscape? In this episode, Dola Dasgupta shares her perspective on the challenges and freedoms of homeschooling and unschooling in a country where formal education is highly valued. We examine the legal uncertainties, cultural factors, and personal decisions that lead families to choose alternative education.
The conversation explores unschooling as a lifestyle focused on personal growth and curiosity, by following genuine interests—whether gaming or philosophy—families can build stronger connections and redefine education as a flexible, meaningful process tailored to their needs.
We also discuss the practical aspects of homeschooling, including career adjustments and the role of parents. Through shared experiences, we provide insights for families considering this path and highlight the impact unschooling can have on creating a more fulfilling approach to learning.
🗓️ Recorded January 18th, 2025. 📍Åmarksgård, Denmark
🔗 Connect with Dola Dasgupta
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dola.dasgupta.1
- Dola's old blog: https://childrenmypartners.wordpress.com
- Write to Dola: doladg@gmail.com
PODCAST INFO
Podcast website: http://theconrad.family/podcast
YouTube Full Episodes: https://www.youtube.com/theconradfamily365
Apple Podcasts: https://www.theconrad.family/apple
Spotify: https://theconrad.family/spotify
RSS: https://theconrad.family/rss
SUPPORT & CONNECT
Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Theconradfamily
Share a review: https://www.theconrad.family/review-our-podcast
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theconrad.family
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/theconradfamily
Twitter: https://twitter.com/theconradfamily
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesper Conrad (00:00):
So today we are together with Dola Dasgupta.
First of all, welcome.
It's wonderful to see you.
Dola Dasgupta (00:07):
Thank you, Jesper and Cecilia.
Jesper Conrad (00:10):
So Dola Cecilia and I were in India around 17
years ago and we would love tovisit India again and it would
be most lovely if we could findsome Indian homeschoolers or
unschoolers.
Most lovely if we could findsome Indian homeschoolers or
unschoolers because we know thatwe often have a lot more in
common than just the educationalchoice.
(00:31):
So I searched online and Ifound you and I can see you have
been part of the movement inIndia for many, many years.
Dola Dasgupta (00:41):
So I think I'll start with India and then, you
know like, go from the macro tothe micro.
So India, it's vast, it's huge.
Diversities are, in manyaspects, right, it's class
diversity, there's castediversity, there's religious
diversity, ethnic diversities,so, and also aspirational
(01:04):
diversities.
Right, that's the main thing.
Everybody aspires for differentthings in India, and one of the
things that everyone has acommon aspiration for is class
mobility.
Everybody wants to rise up inthe social stratification.
(01:24):
Right, they want to be betterthan where they are today, and
modern education is somethingthat gives that hope to a large
number of people that, withmodern education and getting
those, getting through schoolcertificates and then a
university degree and aprofessional qualification is
(01:45):
what will improve their statusin society, which otherwise
might be very hard for variousreasons, because socially we are
a very nuanced country wherepeople have all kinds of
limitations due to varioussocial reasons, and one of them
also is gender.
(02:06):
So obviously, education seemslike the only ticket to some
kind of betterment of their life.
So, therefore, you won't find alot of people thinking about
homeschooling.
Thinking about homeschooling,because that is not easy at all
(02:31):
for a large diversity of peoplewho are looking at school and
then college and then auniversity as their pathway to a
certain better life.
So that's one of the reasonswhy homeschooling is not as
popular, and also we.
If you look at the populationof this country, it's like huge
(02:52):
right, uh, compared to any smalleuropean country like some of
our oh yes we're talking to.
Cecilie Conrad (03:00):
I mean, we are probably we're not the smallest,
but we are from a very smallcountry.
Jesper Conrad (03:06):
So for us it's like Denmark is six million.
Cecilie Conrad (03:08):
It's the rest of the world, more or less yeah.
Dola Dasgupta (03:12):
So some of our states I can say federal states
just to make people understandSome of our states are larger
than any European country, right?
So it's like each state is acountry in itself.
It's huge, so you can imaginethe numbers and the different
(03:33):
kinds of people and what theywant out of life.
So therefore, bumping into ahomeschooler or an unschooler is
a remote probability.
You really need to be ahomeschooler yourself to kind of
find those people.
It's like little like needle ina haystack, you know.
(03:56):
So that's one of the reasons,like if a homeschooler from
abroad comes and hopes thatwe're just going to bump into a
lot of people who thinkdifferently about education,
that's not going to happen.
You need to know me or someonelike me from before so that I
can then connect you to allothers who are there.
(04:17):
You know we are like elves andfairies hiding in forests, so
we're not really walking downthe streets.
Jesper Conrad (04:25):
How is the legality Dola?
How legal is homeschooling?
Is it legal in all states?
Dola Dasgupta (04:32):
We have a very ambiguous status when it comes
to homeschooling.
In India, there is no ruleagainst it.
It's not illegal by law.
In fact, home education hasbeen included in the new
education policy, which iscalled the new education policy
2020.
Right, so you can home ed yourchildren.
(04:56):
However, most students willneed to take a school
certificate, like in the 10thgrade or the 12th grade, because
if you want to join college,you need those, Right.
But if you don't want to joincollege, you want to keep on
being a self-learner all yourlife and you want to become an
(05:17):
entrepreneur?
You want to start your ownbusiness?
You want to do something byyourself which doesn't need any
college endorsements?
Then you're free to do whateveryou want to.
There's no one's going to comeand tell you hey, you didn't go
to school, though you don't havethe right to live or something
like that.
There's nothing like that.
So it's entirely really uponthe family and the children what
(05:42):
they want to do about it.
We do have something called theRight to Education Act, which is
basically a fundamental rightwhich every child below the age
of 14 has, which means if you'rea child till the age of 14, you
can demand education and properschools and proper policies
(06:06):
from the government.
So it's a right which isbestowed upon the citizens.
It's not a duty or aresponsibility that has to be
fulfilled by the citizens tokind of, you know, fall in line
with some laws or anything likethat.
So if I feel that my child isbeing not given admission in a
(06:31):
school or is being discriminatedagainst or there is no school
in my district or in my village,I can make use of Right to
Education Act to make sure thatthe government or the
administration make sure thatthere's a school and children
can go to school and you knowthat education is being provided
(06:55):
.
So it's an onus which is on thegovernment, not on the people
right.
So obviously we have a rightbut, yeah, it's great.
Cecilie Conrad (07:06):
It sounds really great.
I'm just curious do they alsohave the right to not educate?
I mean, if they wanted to?
Because this is a lot offreedom in many ways.
You're explaining and it soundsa little bit like our country
that we don't live in any longer, but where you also.
But it's mandatory to beeducated in our country, so you
(07:29):
can do it at home if you want to, you can unschool if you want
to, but you have to have aneducational strategy for
everyone under the age of about15 15 there is no such.
Dola Dasgupta (07:40):
There is no such law here in india.
Jesper Conrad (07:42):
Yet our children are 13, 16, 19 and 25.
We first, with the second child, started the whole
homeschooling in our life andhe's now 19.
When we started homeschoolingit was lonely.
There was, it was not.
People didn't know about it.
(08:03):
How has your journey been?
You started many years ago also, so have it been lonely and
have it grown now.
Dola Dasgupta (08:13):
Yeah, so when I started she was, I think, six
years old and she'd just been toa kindergarten not to any, just
been to a kindergarten, not toany.
So kindergarten again iscompulsory here.
(08:33):
It's up to parents if they wantto send them to a kindergarten.
So it was completely our choiceto send her or not, but we
thought it would be nice at thatpoint.
So she used to go to akindergarten, but after that we
stopped and since then we havenot looked back on school at all
.
And then and my son at thatpoint was three and a half, I
(08:54):
think, and now a daughter is 23and son is just about turning 19
in March this year we did meet,I think two or three families
at that time and I don't know.
It was just like law ofattraction or something like
that.
We kind of thought about it andexpressed a desire about it and
(09:17):
there I found articles inmainstream magazines and
newspapers which were featuringsome of these families who were
already doing it and weliterally like called up so my
father of my children we are notmarried anymore, so he was, he
and I, we were both journalistsand we we kind of dialed a few
(09:42):
numbers because we knew peoplein the press and got the numbers
of these families which werefeatured, and then we kind of
literally called them up andwent and met them and most
homeschoolers, you would know,are very friendly and they love
having people over to talk abouttheir journeys, and so I didn't
really feel so alone because Ivery quickly found a lot of
(10:06):
people and I also, thanks to theinternet, I also was able to
connect with quite a few peopleabroad, especially the US, so
kind of very quickly pluggedinto certain social media.
I think we didn't have socialmedia in that sense.
We had what you call thee-groups, email groups, right,
(10:31):
yeah.
Yahoo, yeah, right.
So I quickly joined those.
So it was not so alone for me.
But I also had a lot of familyfriends who didn't homeschool,
but they kind of were okay withwhat we were doing.
So it didn't really feel thatlonely, yeah, so yeah, but it
(10:54):
has grown, I would say.
When I started we kind of knewthe people by names and faces,
we were very close-knit and butnow there's a whole lot of
people who are doing I don'tknow them all.
Personally, though, I'm on alot of groups.
People keep inviting me to jointheir groups, because now it's
(11:16):
all WhatsApp and stuff like that.
So now it's grown exponentially.
But I think that's also becauseof COVID.
I think the difference, I wouldsay, between some of us who kind
of started early in 2008, 9, oreven before that, some of them,
(11:36):
some started even before that.
For us it was more of aphilosophical question really,
like we really were looking ateducation from a more holistic,
a more expansive, from anexpansive point of view.
But I think with COVID it'sbecome.
The intentions or themotivations to homeschool are
(12:03):
certainly different.
It's more like a lot of peoplefigured that school is not
needed to educate your children.
So many of them saw that theirchildren were doing better when
they were not going to schoolregularly and the family had
(12:25):
more time with each other, andalso financially it was because
so we.
So that's another thing.
I need to tell you that in Indiawe have we have the private
schools which you have to pay,and then you have the government
schools which are free, youdon't have to pay for them.
(12:46):
But sadly a lot of thegovernment schools are not that
great.
So parents don't like sendingtheir children to government
schools.
They prefer the private schools, and private schools are very
expensive now especially.
They weren't so bad when I wasa kid, but now it's really
(13:08):
expensive.
So I think people lost theirjobs during COVID and they
realized that they felt thatschool was a huge expense.
So that's one of the reasons.
Also, people came tohomeschooling.
So yeah, so I would say themotivations might be a little
(13:29):
different from maybe maybe like20-25 years back to now.
Cecilie Conrad (13:37):
Yeah, we have the same thing going on in
Europe.
A lot of we call it the COVIDconverters.
I don't think it's mostlybecause of expensive private
schools.
I think it's many differentthings that made people realize
(13:57):
when they had the kids homeduring COVID that why don't we
just keep doing this?
But the difference between theCOVID converters and the people
who were homeschooling before isthat the COVID converters often
only differ on that aspect, sothat's the only thing they do,
(14:18):
different from everyone else,and I really hope that I will
stop saying COVID converters,that you know it will expand,
that having kids at home mightmake you just make your own
choices and and we could be likea more I don't know if I can
say this word in English- amockiness.
(14:41):
I can't say it Group with onefeel of being, but it is really
profound how different it canfeel with the people who have
homeschooled, and it's not justabout homeschooling for a long
time, it's.
It's the mindset, as you said.
(15:01):
Are you doing this forphilosophical reasons?
Are you used to asking, justquestioning, why am I doing this
?
I remember you had a colleagueonce my husband had a colleague
once who said don't you gettired?
You must think so much becausethere's so many things you've
thought about.
Jesper Conrad (15:19):
We question as a base, we question everything.
Cecilie Conrad (15:23):
Do you think it will unravel from there?
Dola Dasgupta (15:26):
Well, so what I'm noticing is that a lot of them
did come into homeschoolingbecause of the reasons that you
and I just talked about, dostart thinking differently a
(15:50):
little bit, because they kind ofrealize that it's so hard to
kind of engage, keep childrenengaged all the time at home,
and they find themselves atwit's ends, not knowing how to
be with their children, and soit's it's kind of a limitation
that they're hitting, and eventhough they try to kind of pack
the days of the children withclasses and tutorials and online
(16:13):
and stuff, children arerebelling because that's not
what they want.
So children also kind of startrebelling.
So children also kind of startrebelling.
They start behaving differentlybecause to the children, that
kind of a homeschooling feelslike a prison.
It's better to be in schoolthan to be in that kind of an
(16:34):
environment, right?
So?
So it's not like all of them arekind of doing school at home
and just looking at anotheralternative which would be like
school, but they are alsothinking and I think that could
be one of the reasons that Ifind myself just not me, but
(16:58):
many of us who started manyyears ago find ourselves on
these various groups.
We get invited because theywant to know what we really
think, what we really feel,which means that people do want
to know is there another way?
So some of them have moved tohomeschooling post COVID because
(17:21):
of non-philosophical reasons,but I think a bunch of them
within that also kind of starthaving a change of heart, change
of mind, and then they startasking deeper questions.
Yeah, but I can't say for sure,because it's just been a few
years right and don't know.
(17:43):
Many of them do go back toschool because they just can't
handle it and they put theirhands up and they say, okay,
this is just not our cup of tea.
Jesper Conrad (17:53):
No, but it's also a difficult path to walk where
you, if you do school at home,then you have a risk of ruining
your relationship with yourchild because now you become the
enforcer of.
You need to learn this at thistime time where, if you believe
(18:23):
in foreschooling, as some peopledo, then I would rather it I
had hired someone to be the, theevil person, and I think this
is of course I'm.
I'm putting it like yeah.
So I think that it's importantto look at and say do I want
this role as a parent towards mychildren?
How can I best be a partner intheir learning instead of a
(18:44):
top-down uh, taking over the,the teacher's role of deciding
what happens when?
yeah um, yeah, you, you havewritten an article many, many
years ago, uh, about how toexplain unschooling um to
(19:04):
critics skeptics, skeptics, ohyeah, yeah it's many years ago
but I like the title of it can.
Can we touch upon that?
Dola Dasgupta (19:16):
no, that that was for Wendy, right.
Yeah, for her magazine.
Yes, yeah, yeah, sure, yes, wecan.
What do you want to ask me?
How do you explain?
Jesper Conrad (19:29):
unschooling to people who are skeptic.
Dola Dasgupta (19:33):
I think I've moved so much from when I wrote
that article.
I think I've moved so much fromwhen I wrote that article.
A lot of me now doesn't reallyfeel like explaining things to
skeptics anymore.
Jesper Conrad (19:49):
That's actually my take as well, this comes with
the years.
Cecilie Conrad (19:52):
These days, I'm like do you really want to know?
When people ask, what are youdoing?
What does that mean?
I'm like do you have the time?
Do you really want to know?
When people ask, what are youdoing, what does that mean?
I'm like do you really want toknow?
Because?
It will take about three and ahalf hours and we could talk
about where you're going onvacation next time or your
brother's wedding, because maybethis is not for you.
(20:12):
Yeah, I do the same.
I have a podcast that peoplecan listen in.
Dola Dasgupta (20:18):
I think I've changed a lot as a person as
well.
Unschooling has changed me somuch, and I'm growing older, so
I think my perspectives on lifeare also very different now, and
I think I also realize that Idon't really have to explain
anything to anybody.
So I've also kind of over theyears that, however, when
(20:43):
somebody who's really interestedlike a lot of homeschoolers,
especially when they'restruggling with being this evil,
authoritarian teacher for theirchildren see that their
relationship with their childrenis going down, going you know,
south, then they want to know isthere another way?
(21:07):
Because that's obviously notworking for them.
So that's when I think I try tostep in a bit with our life and
how it has been for us and howthere can be another way to be
with your children.
So I think that's the onlyplace now where I do talk about
(21:29):
unschooling, because that's whenI see there is a real intention
to know they're looking forsomething, they're struggling
with something and they'relooking for a more compassionate
, loving path.
Then I do talk about it withthem.
Cecilie Conrad (21:48):
We all have our own perspectives and we all have
our own journeys.
I'm no missionary, I don't haveto.
I mean, the whole world willnever agree with what I'm doing
and I don't have to convinceanyone, but I will.
I will help if someone's askingfor my help and I will share my
(22:10):
perspective and what I'velearned.
And also it's funny, and alsoit's funny.
I think I was more oh, thatsounds weird.
I was going to say I think Iwas more convinced, maybe three
or four years ago than I am now,that unschooling is the right
thing.
I'm more like now.
It's right for us.
(22:31):
This is what we're doing, thisis our life, our choice, our
style.
I've been consistently we havebeen consistently asking the
kids over all the years ifthere's anything they want to
modify about our lifestyle, andthey usually just say, if we
could have a little more cake,that would be nice, but besides
(22:54):
that they're happy.
So I mean it's just our thing.
But do I have to do I have toconvince everyone?
No, no, no, no.
I mean isn't it the job of thislife and your way yeah, yeah, I,
I quite agree with you.
Dola Dasgupta (23:13):
In fact, I've always been like that, from the
very beginning.
Maybe you know a lot of myother community members.
There is a need for advocacyand showing this as the better
path, or being anti-school,actively being anti-school,
(23:34):
whereas I never took that pathbecause, like I said right at
the beginning, I love my countryand I see the struggles and
challenges of the people and I,while philosophically I might
and spiritually I might see, youknow there is another way to
(23:56):
kind of, you know there isanother way to kind of accept
life as it is and end ofsuffering, as Buddha says.
But I don't think I should beexpecting everyone to be on that
path, because to respectwhatever desires and aspirations
(24:17):
each and everyone has forthemselves and for their
children is another thing thatI've also kind of tried to
constantly remind myself of.
So I've never been anti-school,I've never advocated for
unschooling or homeschooling.
It's just what worked for us.
It's something that was my lifejourney.
(24:41):
Sometimes I even wonder at thispoint of my life and I'm like
50 plus and the children areadults and I'm like, okay, maybe
it was just about me, it's noteven about the children.
So it's like, uh, I, I mean, I,I came to this planet for some
(25:02):
reason and this is the reasonand I did this, and I did it
against some odds and I had agreat time.
I'm still having a great timeand I'm sure I think even if the
children went to school, theywould have turned out fine
(25:23):
either way.
So, but it's not really aboutwhether they, what would have
happened if they went to school,or is it fine that they didn't.
I think it's more about.
This is what felt really greatfor me to do and I did it, and
(25:44):
over the years, the childrenhave been quite happy about it,
and I've also, just like youboth, always ask them that what
do you think?
Like, uh, they have friends whogo to school and stuff.
So I said do you think it'smore fun?
Would you like to experiment,explore?
And they always said no,because, uh, what they tell me
(26:07):
is that their friends alwayskind of came up to them and said
you guys are so lucky y'alldon't go to school.
So, yeah, so I think theydidn't really miss out on that.
You know that social life whichcan happen for some kids who go
(26:28):
to school.
They've always had some otherkids who go to school.
So they did some of thosesocial activities always.
They still do so.
Ultimately, my children and I,we all realize that it's not
(26:49):
really about going to school andsitting there and spending a
lot of time in a physical spacecalled school, but it's more
about the interactions that youcan have with some diverse
people.
So that's that's what theyultimately started looking for,
uh, and it was not really.
They also realized theywouldn't find it in school,
(27:10):
because school can be pretty, uh, homogeneous in that sense.
Uh, so, yeah, so I think, uh, Iwould say at this point of my
life I don't know, meet me 10years later.
I might say something else, butnow I really feel that this is
(27:30):
something that called me and Idid it.
Jesper Conrad (27:32):
And it's a wonderful perspective and it
made me think about all the joyI personally have gotten out of
that we chose this path.
I think the fact that we havehad our children at home and I
also, seven years ago, startedworking from home have given me
(27:56):
such a much more rich life.
It has given me double theamount of time with my children
and all the quality hours withmy children.
So, besides my children beinghappy and liking to be
homeschooled and unschooled andthe life they are living, I'm
just personally so grateful forseeing so much of my, so much of
(28:23):
the time my children live andbeing there when they grow up
and then I've also.
It has given me a perspectivewhen I look back at how I have
learned through my life.
I like the philosophy aboutunschooling and doing what we
(28:45):
are doing as parents have givenme so much time for reflection
about what it is that makes metick or where my passions lie.
And I have come to to a um, apad.
I just turned 50 where I'm likeI really love learning, but I I
(29:06):
hate learning from people.
I still hate that.
I love getting an idea, makinga project, trying to figure that
out.
This year I will start apublishing house again.
I've done it earlier, but now Iwant to.
There's some new stuff I wantto learn.
Making the podcast is, for me,a way to learn, a way to meet
great people, as a way to grow,and this about finding how you,
(29:31):
as a person, learn best.
I don't think I would havegotten that if we hadn't chosen
to to homeschool and unschool,so I'm I'm very grateful that
Cecilia brought it into our life, or actually it was our son,
who is now 19.
He said I don't think thisschool thing is for me, and he
(29:53):
said it enough, so we had tolisten to him.
Dola Dasgupta (29:56):
Yes.
Jesper Conrad (29:56):
And it has given me such a deep and rich life
that I'm just it's pretty good.
Cecilie Conrad (30:04):
Can I do another rant?
I'm not advocating againstschool, I am checking in with
the children.
But I'm also pretty convincedthat unschooling is the best way
to grow up.
Pretty convinced thatunschooling is the best way to
grow up, that if you, if you'relucky enough to have caregivers,
who who can find them there inthemselves to do the
(30:25):
de-schooling process, or maybeyou even have parents who were
never in school, and you getthat framework of of growing up
with that freedom, with thatkind of relationship with your
most important people and withthat kind of support just no
pushing, no curriculum, butstill a framework of of other
(30:51):
people around you who willprovide and help you with
whatever.
Whatever you feel like, is itMinecraft or pottery, or drawing
, or French philosophy, whatever, I'll support you, I'll find
the things you need, I'll, I'llprompt you, not like, but just
you know, are you sure you'redoing what you want to do and
can I help you?
(31:11):
Do you want a cup of tea?
Can I join you?
All these things that we do.
I am convinced this is thebetter life and I'm convinced
that it would be the better lifefor everyone, and I am
convinced that the centerpieceis things being voluntary.
I think it's good for parentsto de-school and find out who
they really are and and takeaway all the stress of being the
(31:36):
policeman of the school system,and I'm convinced that
voluntary education based oncuriosity and exploration is
better for everyone if, if theframework is right, because of
course there is a lot ofdiversity, a lot of situations
where this is not true.
I'm just saying I'm not, I'mI'm just afraid that I said
(32:02):
before whatever, because Iactually don't believe that.
I do believe that this is thebetter life and it is more fair.
Yeah, it is more.
There is more joy, there ismore love and there is also more
learning, actually.
So I.
Dola Dasgupta (32:15):
I just want to chime in with both of you
because I totally agree withboth of you and my experience is
just the same as both of you.
It's only.
It's just this whole thing.
That's why I said maybe I didit for me, I don't know, because
it just completely changed mylife.
Uh, I'm.
(32:35):
I'm so grateful for it and, uh,the amount of time that I got
with my children.
Uh, I think a lot of timepeople ask me why did you
unschool?
And then I because I don't wantto get into a long explanation
I said I just say, oh, because Ilove them so much.
I didn't you know?
Uh, that's, that's so.
I just kind of say that.
(32:57):
But yes, I agree with Cecilia.
This is, this is definitelyeven for me I might not say it
loud out there to advocateanti-school or whatever, but I
really feel this is the best wayto live and I don't know why
everyone's not doing it.
So I always say why are you allnot doing this?
(33:17):
Everyone's not doing it.
So I always say why are you allnot doing this?
This is like why are youworried about curriculum and
schedules and routines and allthat?
Just just relax, have fun,enjoy and everything's going to
be fine.
And I do wonder why everyone'snot living like this.
And I feel everyone, the wholeworld, should be living like
(33:40):
this.
Cecilie Conrad (33:43):
And I think I want to touch upon your.
Did I do it for me?
Yes, I did it for me, but Ialso, I think, because the way I
am a human on this planet, thatI am in this life, I get some
(34:05):
challenges or tasks or things.
You know, there are some cardson my hand, things I have to.
Maybe I don't have to do, but Ihave to think about how to
handle it.
And and four of these cards aremy four children and and those
(34:25):
are pretty good cards, they'repretty important cards, yeah, so
I think a little more aboutthem than I do about, you know,
the roadside tree that I'mpassing on my daily walk.
I could do something about that,but the kids are more important
, yeah, and I think, steppinginto being a mom in the way that
makes sense to me, which is Itake care of them, I will share
(34:50):
the load, but it's they are mychildren.
Why am I giving them up tostrangers?
Why am I trusting the schoolsystem's curriculum?
Who made that up what?
Why are they learning this?
Why are they being pushed?
Why are they sitting at a desk?
(35:10):
Why am I just eating that weirdpacked lunch that the school
system is?
That I didn't want.
It's not even vegetarian, youknow.
I just so the fact that I stepinto doing it the way that I
want to do it, that makes senseto me and make therefore makes
(35:32):
me happy.
Well, that was unschooling.
That was giving them theirfreedom.
So, yes, I did it for thembecause, yeah, it's just such an
entangled thing I mean I can'tdo as a mom, I can't do things
solely for me.
I've heard that so many times.
Why don't you go on a yogaretreat in France, all by
(35:54):
yourself, to to treat yourself?
If I have vacant time, I wantto be with my kids and and if I
want an important decision, Iwant to do it for them.
But that makes it for me aswell.
My most important job is beinga mom, so did I do it for me?
Dola Dasgupta (36:12):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, but in a different way.
That you explain.
And that's great, because Ialso kind of hear this a lot,
that you need a break, take aholiday, go somewhere.
And I'm like, I think my lifeis a break, it's a vacation and
(36:35):
I need to take a break from this.
And yes, people do kind of feelthat how do you all spend so
much time with each other?
And I'm like, uh, I just loveit.
I don't know why you are doingit.
Uh, I, I wouldn't do it anyother way.
I'd never do it any other way,that's for sure.
(36:57):
Yeah, dola.
Jesper Conrad (37:02):
if some of the ones who are listening to this
lives in India and isconsidering, okay, homeschooling
, home-led unschooling, could bean interesting path for us, we
would like to explore it more.
What would you suggest they do?
How would you suggest tobeginners that they take the
(37:25):
first step?
Dola Dasgupta (37:25):
One of the questions I often ask parents
who kind of seek me out for thisreason like 20 reasons which
can be there for choosingsomething other than school and
(37:53):
when they start coming up withone after another of those
reasons, then we say, ok, now,how are you going to go about
this?
Say, okay, now, how are yougoing to go about this?
So if your reason is you, yourreason is I want my child to
have more freedom, then I kindof take them through.
What do you mean by freedom?
What does freedom look like?
(38:15):
Can you just kind of close youreyes and visualize freedom?
What does it look like?
So I start with I think thesethe reasons come from your heart
.
There's something that iscalling you right and I think
you might not be very clearabout that calling unless
(38:35):
someone helps you and guides youtowards it.
See, some of us, I feel, mighthave been a bit clearer than
some, might have been a bitclearer than some, and I think
that's also something that I'venoticed that many of us took to
unschooling like fish to water.
It was like we were born to dothis.
But some, I think they feelattracted to it, but they don't
(39:00):
really.
They know there's a calling,but they're not able to really
hold on to that and that helps.
So these kind of reflectivequestions help them to kind of
take that next step.
The first step is leave school,then slowly, you know, start
questioning, asking freedom.
(39:22):
I want my child to pursue theirinterests.
We want more bonding time, okay, so what are you going to do
about it?
Like, so, really get into thatnitty gritty of it.
So that's the philosophicalpart of it, I think, but there's
a practical part to it as well.
(39:43):
One is that definitely, ifyou're going to be either
homeschooling or even, the moreradically, unschoolers, I do
feel that one parent at leastneeds to be around.
So that's another thing thatparents need to think about.
Like, are we going to, you knowhow?
Are we going to homes,homeschool?
(40:04):
Are we going to let go of ourcareers in the way that it is
and rethink and reimagine eventhe way we look at livelihood
and careers and professions?
Because that's a big change,right, it's a big change, and
especially in a country, like Itold you, in India, where many
(40:27):
people are first generationprofessionals, first generation
educated.
So for them to suddenly want togive up, suddenly to give up
all that like profession, careerjobs, well-paying jobs.
To homeschool is a bitdifficult, especially for the
(40:48):
women, because, uh, women haveto really work hard here too,
and I mean it's in degrees.
Gender biases are thereeverywhere, but it's a lot more
in countries like us where womenare really breaking barriers to
kind of find professions,careers and jobs.
(41:09):
So then it's hard for women toactually really think of
homeschooling because it means alot of giving up.
So that's the next change thatthey need to make, and are they
ready for it?
But if they're ready for allthis, then the next step is uh,
okay, now do we homeschool withthe curriculum?
(41:32):
Uh, with, uh with an objectiveof taking some school leaving,
certificates and exams?
Or we are eclectics, or, and wethink about school exams and
stuff like that later in life,or we remain unschoolers and
figure out as so.
The first question everybodyasks is what about exams?
(41:55):
What about certificates?
So these are the questionspeople ask.
I think over the years many ofthem relax also, but when they
are starting out, these are thefears they have.
So I always give them alloptions, I tell them there are
options for everything and youcan do it this way, that way,
(42:17):
another way, try it out and seewhat works for you as a family,
and if it doesn't, you canalways change tracks.
That's fine.
I think a lot of people afterone or two years down the line
kind of feel a bit of relief andthere is a certain letting go
(42:38):
of the burden that we have tofigure out everything right now.
They realize they don't have to.
They realize, oh right, we haveto figure out everything right
now.
They realize they don't have to.
They realize, oh right, we havechoices.
Oh okay, it doesn't have to beright now, we can think about it
five years down the line, 10years down the line, it's fine,
we can change tracks.
I think when they figure thatout, there's a lot more comfort
(43:00):
and relaxation into this path.
Cecilie Conrad (43:04):
Yeah, I usually tell people to take a year
vacation.
Just give it a year.
A year is not that bad.
How much can you fall behind inschool stuff in a year you can
catch up.
Just take a break becausethere's so much going on in the
mind and they think they, as yousay, have to figure everything
out within the first two weeks.
(43:24):
We talked with a guy I knowyesterday who was.
He said now we're relaxing.
The child has been out ofschool for two months no, you're
not, it'll come give it a yearchristmas dola, thank you so
much for your time.
Jesper Conrad (43:45):
It's been wonderful talking with you, so
what?
What are you helping peoplewith and how can they get hold
of you?
Dola Dasgupta (43:50):
okay, so the best way to do is drop me an email
and then we kind of figure outwhether we can have a zoom
session or some people preferwriting emails.
I do run a facebook page andI'm admin of so many social
media groups and stuff and I'malways out there typing in
(44:11):
responses, helping people,trying to share ideas and
resources and everything.
But at the end, if they want aface to face, then I of course
do set up a Zoom with them.
It was so nice to talk to you.
Cecilie Conrad (44:25):
I actually think we should make a video again.
If they want a face-to-face,then I of course do set up a
Zoom with them.
It was so nice to talk to you.
Jesper Conrad (44:29):
I actually think we should make a video again.
Dola Dasgupta (44:31):
Yeah, I enjoyed it a lot.
Maybe we can talk about morethings.
Jesper Conrad (44:34):
Yeah, I think we can.
Let's find time for a secondepisode.
Thanks a lot for your time.
It has been a big pleasure.
Cecilie Conrad (44:41):
It was a nice conversation.
Dola Dasgupta (44:42):
Thank you, it was lovely meeting you both.
So today we are together with Dola Dasgupta.
First of all, welcome.
It's wonderful to see you.
Dola Dasgupta (00:07):
Thank you, Jesper and Cecilia.
Jesper Conrad (00:10):
So Dola Cecilia and I were in India around 17
years ago and we would love tovisit India again and it would
be most lovely if we could findsome Indian homeschoolers or
unschoolers.
Most lovely if we could findsome Indian homeschoolers or
unschoolers because we know thatwe often have a lot more in
common than just the educationalchoice.
(00:31):
So I searched online and Ifound you and I can see you have
been part of the movement inIndia for many, many years.
Dola Dasgupta (00:41):
So I think I'll start with India and then, you
know like, go from the macro tothe micro.
So India, it's vast, it's huge.
Diversities are, in manyaspects, right, it's class
diversity, there's castediversity, there's religious
diversity, ethnic diversities,so, and also aspirational
(01:04):
diversities.
Right, that's the main thing.
Everybody aspires for differentthings in India, and one of the
things that everyone has acommon aspiration for is class
mobility.
Everybody wants to rise up inthe social stratification.
(01:24):
Right, they want to be betterthan where they are today, and
modern education is somethingthat gives that hope to a large
number of people that, withmodern education and getting
those, getting through schoolcertificates and then a
university degree and aprofessional qualification is
(01:45):
what will improve their statusin society, which otherwise
might be very hard for variousreasons, because socially we are
a very nuanced country wherepeople have all kinds of
limitations due to varioussocial reasons, and one of them
also is gender.
(02:06):
So obviously, education seemslike the only ticket to some
kind of betterment of their life.
So, therefore, you won't find alot of people thinking about
homeschooling.
Thinking about homeschooling,because that is not easy at all
(02:31):
for a large diversity of peoplewho are looking at school and
then college and then auniversity as their pathway to a
certain better life.
So that's one of the reasonswhy homeschooling is not as
popular, and also we.
If you look at the populationof this country, it's like huge
(02:52):
right, uh, compared to any smalleuropean country like some of
our oh yes we're talking to.
Cecilie Conrad (03:00):
I mean, we are probably we're not the smallest,
but we are from a very smallcountry.
Jesper Conrad (03:06):
So for us it's like Denmark is six million.
Cecilie Conrad (03:08):
It's the rest of the world, more or less yeah.
Dola Dasgupta (03:12):
So some of our states I can say federal states
just to make people understandSome of our states are larger
than any European country, right?
So it's like each state is acountry in itself.
It's huge, so you can imaginethe numbers and the different
(03:33):
kinds of people and what theywant out of life.
So therefore, bumping into ahomeschooler or an unschooler is
a remote probability.
You really need to be ahomeschooler yourself to kind of
find those people.
It's like little like needle ina haystack, you know.
(03:56):
So that's one of the reasons,like if a homeschooler from
abroad comes and hopes thatwe're just going to bump into a
lot of people who thinkdifferently about education,
that's not going to happen.
You need to know me or someonelike me from before so that I
can then connect you to allothers who are there.
(04:17):
You know we are like elves andfairies hiding in forests, so
we're not really walking downthe streets.
Jesper Conrad (04:25):
How is the legality Dola?
How legal is homeschooling?
Is it legal in all states?
Dola Dasgupta (04:32):
We have a very ambiguous status when it comes
to homeschooling.
In India, there is no ruleagainst it.
It's not illegal by law.
In fact, home education hasbeen included in the new
education policy, which iscalled the new education policy
2020.
Right, so you can home ed yourchildren.
(04:56):
However, most students willneed to take a school
certificate, like in the 10thgrade or the 12th grade, because
if you want to join college,you need those, Right.
But if you don't want to joincollege, you want to keep on
being a self-learner all yourlife and you want to become an
(05:17):
entrepreneur?
You want to start your ownbusiness?
You want to do something byyourself which doesn't need any
college endorsements?
Then you're free to do whateveryou want to.
There's no one's going to comeand tell you hey, you didn't go
to school, though you don't havethe right to live or something
like that.
There's nothing like that.
So it's entirely really uponthe family and the children what
(05:42):
they want to do about it.
We do have something called theRight to Education Act, which is
basically a fundamental rightwhich every child below the age
of 14 has, which means if you'rea child till the age of 14, you
can demand education and properschools and proper policies
(06:06):
from the government.
So it's a right which isbestowed upon the citizens.
It's not a duty or aresponsibility that has to be
fulfilled by the citizens tokind of, you know, fall in line
with some laws or anything likethat.
So if I feel that my child isbeing not given admission in a
(06:31):
school or is being discriminatedagainst or there is no school
in my district or in my village,I can make use of Right to
Education Act to make sure thatthe government or the
administration make sure thatthere's a school and children
can go to school and you knowthat education is being provided
(06:55):
.
So it's an onus which is on thegovernment, not on the people
right.
So obviously we have a rightbut, yeah, it's great.
Cecilie Conrad (07:06):
It sounds really great.
I'm just curious do they alsohave the right to not educate?
I mean, if they wanted to?
Because this is a lot offreedom in many ways.
You're explaining and it soundsa little bit like our country
that we don't live in any longer, but where you also.
But it's mandatory to beeducated in our country, so you
(07:29):
can do it at home if you want to, you can unschool if you want
to, but you have to have aneducational strategy for
everyone under the age of about15 15 there is no such.
Dola Dasgupta (07:40):
There is no such law here in india.
Jesper Conrad (07:42):
Yet our children are 13, 16, 19 and 25.
We first, with the second child, started the whole
homeschooling in our life andhe's now 19.
When we started homeschoolingit was lonely.
There was, it was not.
People didn't know about it.
(08:03):
How has your journey been?
You started many years ago also, so have it been lonely and
have it grown now.
Dola Dasgupta (08:13):
Yeah, so when I started she was, I think, six
years old and she'd just been toa kindergarten not to any, just
been to a kindergarten, not toany.
So kindergarten again iscompulsory here.
(08:33):
It's up to parents if they wantto send them to a kindergarten.
So it was completely our choiceto send her or not, but we
thought it would be nice at thatpoint.
So she used to go to akindergarten, but after that we
stopped and since then we havenot looked back on school at all
.
And then and my son at thatpoint was three and a half, I
(08:54):
think, and now a daughter is 23and son is just about turning 19
in March this year we did meet,I think two or three families
at that time and I don't know.
It was just like law ofattraction or something like
that.
We kind of thought about it andexpressed a desire about it and
(09:17):
there I found articles inmainstream magazines and
newspapers which were featuringsome of these families who were
already doing it and weliterally like called up so my
father of my children we are notmarried anymore, so he was, he
and I, we were both journalistsand we we kind of dialed a few
(09:42):
numbers because we knew peoplein the press and got the numbers
of these families which werefeatured, and then we kind of
literally called them up andwent and met them and most
homeschoolers, you would know,are very friendly and they love
having people over to talk abouttheir journeys, and so I didn't
really feel so alone because Ivery quickly found a lot of
(10:06):
people and I also, thanks to theinternet, I also was able to
connect with quite a few peopleabroad, especially the US, so
kind of very quickly pluggedinto certain social media.
I think we didn't have socialmedia in that sense.
We had what you call thee-groups, email groups, right,
(10:31):
yeah.
Yahoo, yeah, right.
So I quickly joined those.
So it was not so alone for me.
But I also had a lot of familyfriends who didn't homeschool,
but they kind of were okay withwhat we were doing.
So it didn't really feel thatlonely, yeah, so yeah, but it
(10:54):
has grown, I would say.
When I started we kind of knewthe people by names and faces,
we were very close-knit and butnow there's a whole lot of
people who are doing I don'tknow them all.
Personally, though, I'm on alot of groups.
People keep inviting me to jointheir groups, because now it's
(11:16):
all WhatsApp and stuff like that.
So now it's grown exponentially.
But I think that's also becauseof COVID.
I think the difference, I wouldsay, between some of us who kind
of started early in 2008, 9, oreven before that, some of them,
(11:36):
some started even before that.
For us it was more of aphilosophical question really,
like we really were looking ateducation from a more holistic,
a more expansive, from anexpansive point of view.
But I think with COVID it'sbecome.
The intentions or themotivations to homeschool are
(12:03):
certainly different.
It's more like a lot of peoplefigured that school is not
needed to educate your children.
So many of them saw that theirchildren were doing better when
they were not going to schoolregularly and the family had
(12:25):
more time with each other, andalso financially it was because
so we.
So that's another thing.
I need to tell you that in Indiawe have we have the private
schools which you have to pay,and then you have the government
schools which are free, youdon't have to pay for them.
(12:46):
But sadly a lot of thegovernment schools are not that
great.
So parents don't like sendingtheir children to government
schools.
They prefer the private schools, and private schools are very
expensive now especially.
They weren't so bad when I wasa kid, but now it's really
(13:08):
expensive.
So I think people lost theirjobs during COVID and they
realized that they felt thatschool was a huge expense.
So that's one of the reasons.
Also, people came tohomeschooling.
So yeah, so I would say themotivations might be a little
(13:29):
different from maybe maybe like20-25 years back to now.
Cecilie Conrad (13:37):
Yeah, we have the same thing going on in
Europe.
A lot of we call it the COVIDconverters.
I don't think it's mostlybecause of expensive private
schools.
I think it's many differentthings that made people realize
(13:57):
when they had the kids homeduring COVID that why don't we
just keep doing this?
But the difference between theCOVID converters and the people
who were homeschooling before isthat the COVID converters often
only differ on that aspect, sothat's the only thing they do,
(14:18):
different from everyone else,and I really hope that I will
stop saying COVID converters,that you know it will expand,
that having kids at home mightmake you just make your own
choices and and we could be likea more I don't know if I can
say this word in English- amockiness.
(14:41):
I can't say it Group with onefeel of being, but it is really
profound how different it canfeel with the people who have
homeschooled, and it's not justabout homeschooling for a long
time, it's.
It's the mindset, as you said.
(15:01):
Are you doing this forphilosophical reasons?
Are you used to asking, justquestioning, why am I doing this
?
I remember you had a colleagueonce my husband had a colleague
once who said don't you gettired?
You must think so much becausethere's so many things you've
thought about.
Jesper Conrad (15:19):
We question as a base, we question everything.
Cecilie Conrad (15:23):
Do you think it will unravel from there?
Dola Dasgupta (15:26):
Well, so what I'm noticing is that a lot of them
did come into homeschoolingbecause of the reasons that you
and I just talked about, dostart thinking differently a
(15:50):
little bit, because they kind ofrealize that it's so hard to
kind of engage, keep childrenengaged all the time at home,
and they find themselves atwit's ends, not knowing how to
be with their children, and soit's it's kind of a limitation
that they're hitting, and eventhough they try to kind of pack
the days of the children withclasses and tutorials and online
(16:13):
and stuff, children arerebelling because that's not
what they want.
So children also kind of startrebelling.
So children also kind of startrebelling.
They start behaving differentlybecause to the children, that
kind of a homeschooling feelslike a prison.
It's better to be in schoolthan to be in that kind of an
(16:34):
environment, right?
So?
So it's not like all of them arekind of doing school at home
and just looking at anotheralternative which would be like
school, but they are alsothinking and I think that could
be one of the reasons that Ifind myself just not me, but
(16:58):
many of us who started manyyears ago find ourselves on
these various groups.
We get invited because theywant to know what we really
think, what we really feel,which means that people do want
to know is there another way?
So some of them have moved tohomeschooling post COVID because
(17:21):
of non-philosophical reasons,but I think a bunch of them
within that also kind of starthaving a change of heart, change
of mind, and then they startasking deeper questions.
Yeah, but I can't say for sure,because it's just been a few
years right and don't know.
(17:43):
Many of them do go back toschool because they just can't
handle it and they put theirhands up and they say, okay,
this is just not our cup of tea.
Jesper Conrad (17:53):
No, but it's also a difficult path to walk where
you, if you do school at home,then you have a risk of ruining
your relationship with yourchild because now you become the
enforcer of.
You need to learn this at thistime time where, if you believe
(18:23):
in foreschooling, as some peopledo, then I would rather it I
had hired someone to be the, theevil person, and I think this
is of course I'm.
I'm putting it like yeah.
So I think that it's importantto look at and say do I want
this role as a parent towards mychildren?
How can I best be a partner intheir learning instead of a
(18:44):
top-down uh, taking over the,the teacher's role of deciding
what happens when?
yeah um, yeah, you, you havewritten an article many, many
years ago, uh, about how toexplain unschooling um to
(19:04):
critics skeptics, skeptics, ohyeah, yeah it's many years ago
but I like the title of it can.
Can we touch upon that?
Dola Dasgupta (19:16):
no, that that was for Wendy, right.
Yeah, for her magazine.
Yes, yeah, yeah, sure, yes, wecan.
What do you want to ask me?
How do you explain?
Jesper Conrad (19:29):
unschooling to people who are skeptic.
Dola Dasgupta (19:33):
I think I've moved so much from when I wrote
that article.
I think I've moved so much fromwhen I wrote that article.
A lot of me now doesn't reallyfeel like explaining things to
skeptics anymore.
Jesper Conrad (19:49):
That's actually my take as well, this comes with
the years.
Cecilie Conrad (19:52):
These days, I'm like do you really want to know?
When people ask, what are youdoing?
What does that mean?
I'm like do you have the time?
Do you really want to know?
When people ask, what are youdoing, what does that mean?
I'm like do you really want toknow?
Because?
It will take about three and ahalf hours and we could talk
about where you're going onvacation next time or your
brother's wedding, because maybethis is not for you.
(20:12):
Yeah, I do the same.
I have a podcast that peoplecan listen in.
Dola Dasgupta (20:18):
I think I've changed a lot as a person as
well.
Unschooling has changed me somuch, and I'm growing older, so
I think my perspectives on lifeare also very different now, and
I think I also realize that Idon't really have to explain
anything to anybody.
So I've also kind of over theyears that, however, when
(20:43):
somebody who's really interestedlike a lot of homeschoolers,
especially when they'restruggling with being this evil,
authoritarian teacher for theirchildren see that their
relationship with their childrenis going down, going you know,
south, then they want to know isthere another way?
(21:07):
Because that's obviously notworking for them.
So that's when I think I try tostep in a bit with our life and
how it has been for us and howthere can be another way to be
with your children.
So I think that's the onlyplace now where I do talk about
(21:29):
unschooling, because that's whenI see there is a real intention
to know they're looking forsomething, they're struggling
with something and they'relooking for a more compassionate
, loving path.
Then I do talk about it withthem.
Cecilie Conrad (21:48):
We all have our own perspectives and we all have
our own journeys.
I'm no missionary, I don't haveto.
I mean, the whole world willnever agree with what I'm doing
and I don't have to convinceanyone, but I will.
I will help if someone's askingfor my help and I will share my
(22:10):
perspective and what I'velearned.
And also it's funny, and alsoit's funny.
I think I was more oh, thatsounds weird.
I was going to say I think Iwas more convinced, maybe three
or four years ago than I am now,that unschooling is the right
thing.
I'm more like now.
It's right for us.
(22:31):
This is what we're doing, thisis our life, our choice, our
style.
I've been consistently we havebeen consistently asking the
kids over all the years ifthere's anything they want to
modify about our lifestyle, andthey usually just say, if we
could have a little more cake,that would be nice, but besides
(22:54):
that they're happy.
So I mean it's just our thing.
But do I have to do I have toconvince everyone?
No, no, no, no.
I mean isn't it the job of thislife and your way yeah, yeah, I,
I quite agree with you.
Dola Dasgupta (23:13):
In fact, I've always been like that, from the
very beginning.
Maybe you know a lot of myother community members.
There is a need for advocacyand showing this as the better
path, or being anti-school,actively being anti-school,
(23:34):
whereas I never took that pathbecause, like I said right at
the beginning, I love my countryand I see the struggles and
challenges of the people and I,while philosophically I might
and spiritually I might see, youknow there is another way to
(23:56):
kind of, you know there isanother way to kind of accept
life as it is and end ofsuffering, as Buddha says.
But I don't think I should beexpecting everyone to be on that
path, because to respectwhatever desires and aspirations
(24:17):
each and everyone has forthemselves and for their
children is another thing thatI've also kind of tried to
constantly remind myself of.
So I've never been anti-school,I've never advocated for
unschooling or homeschooling.
It's just what worked for us.
It's something that was my lifejourney.
(24:41):
Sometimes I even wonder at thispoint of my life and I'm like
50 plus and the children areadults and I'm like, okay, maybe
it was just about me, it's noteven about the children.
So it's like, uh, I, I mean, I,I came to this planet for some
(25:02):
reason and this is the reasonand I did this, and I did it
against some odds and I had agreat time.
I'm still having a great timeand I'm sure I think even if the
children went to school, theywould have turned out fine
(25:23):
either way.
So, but it's not really aboutwhether they, what would have
happened if they went to school,or is it fine that they didn't.
I think it's more about.
This is what felt really greatfor me to do and I did it, and
(25:44):
over the years, the childrenhave been quite happy about it,
and I've also, just like youboth, always ask them that what
do you think?
Like, uh, they have friends whogo to school and stuff.
So I said do you think it'smore fun?
Would you like to experiment,explore?
And they always said no,because, uh, what they tell me
(26:07):
is that their friends alwayskind of came up to them and said
you guys are so lucky y'alldon't go to school.
So, yeah, so I think theydidn't really miss out on that.
You know that social life whichcan happen for some kids who go
(26:28):
to school.
They've always had some otherkids who go to school.
So they did some of thosesocial activities always.
They still do so.
Ultimately, my children and I,we all realize that it's not
(26:49):
really about going to school andsitting there and spending a
lot of time in a physical spacecalled school, but it's more
about the interactions that youcan have with some diverse
people.
So that's that's what theyultimately started looking for,
uh, and it was not really.
They also realized theywouldn't find it in school,
(27:10):
because school can be pretty, uh, homogeneous in that sense.
Uh, so, yeah, so I think, uh, Iwould say at this point of my
life I don't know, meet me 10years later.
I might say something else, butnow I really feel that this is
(27:30):
something that called me and Idid it.
Jesper Conrad (27:32):
And it's a wonderful perspective and it
made me think about all the joyI personally have gotten out of
that we chose this path.
I think the fact that we havehad our children at home and I
also, seven years ago, startedworking from home have given me
(27:56):
such a much more rich life.
It has given me double theamount of time with my children
and all the quality hours withmy children.
So, besides my children beinghappy and liking to be
homeschooled and unschooled andthe life they are living, I'm
just personally so grateful forseeing so much of my, so much of
(28:23):
the time my children live andbeing there when they grow up
and then I've also.
It has given me a perspectivewhen I look back at how I have
learned through my life.
I like the philosophy aboutunschooling and doing what we
(28:45):
are doing as parents have givenme so much time for reflection
about what it is that makes metick or where my passions lie.
And I have come to to a um, apad.
I just turned 50 where I'm likeI really love learning, but I I
(29:06):
hate learning from people.
I still hate that.
I love getting an idea, makinga project, trying to figure that
out.
This year I will start apublishing house again.
I've done it earlier, but now Iwant to.
There's some new stuff I wantto learn.
Making the podcast is, for me,a way to learn, a way to meet
great people, as a way to grow,and this about finding how you,
(29:31):
as a person, learn best.
I don't think I would havegotten that if we hadn't chosen
to to homeschool and unschool,so I'm I'm very grateful that
Cecilia brought it into our life, or actually it was our son,
who is now 19.
He said I don't think thisschool thing is for me, and he
(29:53):
said it enough, so we had tolisten to him.
Dola Dasgupta (29:56):
Yes.
Jesper Conrad (29:56):
And it has given me such a deep and rich life
that I'm just it's pretty good.
Cecilie Conrad (30:04):
Can I do another rant?
I'm not advocating againstschool, I am checking in with
the children.
But I'm also pretty convincedthat unschooling is the best way
to grow up.
Pretty convinced thatunschooling is the best way to
grow up, that if you, if you'relucky enough to have caregivers,
who who can find them there inthemselves to do the
(30:25):
de-schooling process, or maybeyou even have parents who were
never in school, and you getthat framework of of growing up
with that freedom, with thatkind of relationship with your
most important people and withthat kind of support just no
pushing, no curriculum, butstill a framework of of other
(30:51):
people around you who willprovide and help you with
whatever.
Whatever you feel like, is itMinecraft or pottery, or drawing
, or French philosophy, whatever, I'll support you, I'll find
the things you need, I'll, I'llprompt you, not like, but just
you know, are you sure you'redoing what you want to do and
can I help you?
(31:11):
Do you want a cup of tea?
Can I join you?
All these things that we do.
I am convinced this is thebetter life and I'm convinced
that it would be the better lifefor everyone, and I am
convinced that the centerpieceis things being voluntary.
I think it's good for parentsto de-school and find out who
they really are and and takeaway all the stress of being the
(31:36):
policeman of the school system,and I'm convinced that
voluntary education based oncuriosity and exploration is
better for everyone if, if theframework is right, because of
course there is a lot ofdiversity, a lot of situations
where this is not true.
I'm just saying I'm not, I'mI'm just afraid that I said
(32:02):
before whatever, because Iactually don't believe that.
I do believe that this is thebetter life and it is more fair.
Yeah, it is more.
There is more joy, there ismore love and there is also more
learning, actually.
So I.
Dola Dasgupta (32:15):
I just want to chime in with both of you
because I totally agree withboth of you and my experience is
just the same as both of you.
It's only.
It's just this whole thing.
That's why I said maybe I didit for me, I don't know, because
it just completely changed mylife.
Uh, I'm.
(32:35):
I'm so grateful for it and, uh,the amount of time that I got
with my children.
Uh, I think a lot of timepeople ask me why did you
unschool?
And then I because I don't wantto get into a long explanation
I said I just say, oh, because Ilove them so much.
I didn't you know?
Uh, that's, that's so.
I just kind of say that.
(32:57):
But yes, I agree with Cecilia.
This is, this is definitelyeven for me I might not say it
loud out there to advocateanti-school or whatever, but I
really feel this is the best wayto live and I don't know why
everyone's not doing it.
So I always say why are you allnot doing this?
(33:17):
Everyone's not doing it.
So I always say why are you allnot doing this?
This is like why are youworried about curriculum and
schedules and routines and allthat?
Just just relax, have fun,enjoy and everything's going to
be fine.
And I do wonder why everyone'snot living like this.
And I feel everyone, the wholeworld, should be living like
(33:40):
this.
Cecilie Conrad (33:43):
And I think I want to touch upon your.
Did I do it for me?
Yes, I did it for me, but Ialso, I think, because the way I
am a human on this planet, thatI am in this life, I get some
(34:05):
challenges or tasks or things.
You know, there are some cardson my hand, things I have to.
Maybe I don't have to do, but Ihave to think about how to
handle it.
And and four of these cards aremy four children and and those
(34:25):
are pretty good cards, they'repretty important cards, yeah, so
I think a little more aboutthem than I do about, you know,
the roadside tree that I'mpassing on my daily walk.
I could do something about that,but the kids are more important
, yeah, and I think, steppinginto being a mom in the way that
makes sense to me, which is Itake care of them, I will share
(34:50):
the load, but it's they are mychildren.
Why am I giving them up tostrangers?
Why am I trusting the schoolsystem's curriculum?
Who made that up what?
Why are they learning this?
Why are they being pushed?
Why are they sitting at a desk?
(35:10):
Why am I just eating that weirdpacked lunch that the school
system is?
That I didn't want.
It's not even vegetarian, youknow.
I just so the fact that I stepinto doing it the way that I
want to do it, that makes senseto me and make therefore makes
(35:32):
me happy.
Well, that was unschooling.
That was giving them theirfreedom.
So, yes, I did it for thembecause, yeah, it's just such an
entangled thing I mean I can'tdo as a mom, I can't do things
solely for me.
I've heard that so many times.
Why don't you go on a yogaretreat in France, all by
(35:54):
yourself, to to treat yourself?
If I have vacant time, I wantto be with my kids and and if I
want an important decision, Iwant to do it for them.
But that makes it for me aswell.
My most important job is beinga mom, so did I do it for me?
Dola Dasgupta (36:12):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, but in a different way.
That you explain.
And that's great, because Ialso kind of hear this a lot,
that you need a break, take aholiday, go somewhere.
And I'm like, I think my lifeis a break, it's a vacation and
(36:35):
I need to take a break from this.
And yes, people do kind of feelthat how do you all spend so
much time with each other?
And I'm like, uh, I just loveit.
I don't know why you are doingit.
Uh, I, I wouldn't do it anyother way.
I'd never do it any other way,that's for sure.
(36:57):
Yeah, dola.
Jesper Conrad (37:02):
if some of the ones who are listening to this
lives in India and isconsidering, okay, homeschooling
, home-led unschooling, could bean interesting path for us, we
would like to explore it more.
What would you suggest they do?
How would you suggest tobeginners that they take the
(37:25):
first step?
Dola Dasgupta (37:25):
One of the questions I often ask parents
who kind of seek me out for thisreason like 20 reasons which
can be there for choosingsomething other than school and
(37:53):
when they start coming up withone after another of those
reasons, then we say, ok, now,how are you going to go about
this?
Say, okay, now, how are yougoing to go about this?
So if your reason is you, yourreason is I want my child to
have more freedom, then I kindof take them through.
What do you mean by freedom?
What does freedom look like?
(38:15):
Can you just kind of close youreyes and visualize freedom?
What does it look like?
So I start with I think thesethe reasons come from your heart
.
There's something that iscalling you right and I think
you might not be very clearabout that calling unless
(38:35):
someone helps you and guides youtowards it.
See, some of us, I feel, mighthave been a bit clearer than
some, might have been a bitclearer than some, and I think
that's also something that I'venoticed that many of us took to
unschooling like fish to water.
It was like we were born to dothis.
But some, I think they feelattracted to it, but they don't
(39:00):
really.
They know there's a calling,but they're not able to really
hold on to that and that helps.
So these kind of reflectivequestions help them to kind of
take that next step.
The first step is leave school,then slowly, you know, start
questioning, asking freedom.
(39:22):
I want my child to pursue theirinterests.
We want more bonding time, okay, so what are you going to do
about it?
Like, so, really get into thatnitty gritty of it.
So that's the philosophicalpart of it, I think, but there's
a practical part to it as well.
(39:43):
One is that definitely, ifyou're going to be either
homeschooling or even, the moreradically, unschoolers, I do
feel that one parent at leastneeds to be around.
So that's another thing thatparents need to think about.
Like, are we going to, you knowhow?
Are we going to homes,homeschool?
(40:04):
Are we going to let go of ourcareers in the way that it is
and rethink and reimagine eventhe way we look at livelihood
and careers and professions?
Because that's a big change,right, it's a big change, and
especially in a country, like Itold you, in India, where many
(40:27):
people are first generationprofessionals, first generation
educated.
So for them to suddenly want togive up, suddenly to give up
all that like profession, careerjobs, well-paying jobs.
To homeschool is a bitdifficult, especially for the
(40:48):
women, because, uh, women haveto really work hard here too,
and I mean it's in degrees.
Gender biases are thereeverywhere, but it's a lot more
in countries like us where womenare really breaking barriers to
kind of find professions,careers and jobs.
(41:09):
So then it's hard for women toactually really think of
homeschooling because it means alot of giving up.
So that's the next change thatthey need to make, and are they
ready for it?
But if they're ready for allthis, then the next step is uh,
okay, now do we homeschool withthe curriculum?
(41:32):
Uh, with, uh with an objectiveof taking some school leaving,
certificates and exams?
Or we are eclectics, or, and wethink about school exams and
stuff like that later in life,or we remain unschoolers and
figure out as so.
The first question everybodyasks is what about exams?
(41:55):
What about certificates?
So these are the questionspeople ask.
I think over the years many ofthem relax also, but when they
are starting out, these are thefears they have.
So I always give them alloptions, I tell them there are
options for everything and youcan do it this way, that way,
(42:17):
another way, try it out and seewhat works for you as a family,
and if it doesn't, you canalways change tracks.
That's fine.
I think a lot of people afterone or two years down the line
kind of feel a bit of relief andthere is a certain letting go
(42:38):
of the burden that we have tofigure out everything right now.
They realize they don't have to.
They realize, oh right, we haveto figure out everything right
now.
They realize they don't have to.
They realize, oh right, we havechoices.
Oh okay, it doesn't have to beright now, we can think about it
five years down the line, 10years down the line, it's fine,
we can change tracks.
I think when they figure thatout, there's a lot more comfort
(43:00):
and relaxation into this path.
Cecilie Conrad (43:04):
Yeah, I usually tell people to take a year
vacation.
Just give it a year.
A year is not that bad.
How much can you fall behind inschool stuff in a year you can
catch up.
Just take a break becausethere's so much going on in the
mind and they think they, as yousay, have to figure everything
out within the first two weeks.
(43:24):
We talked with a guy I knowyesterday who was.
He said now we're relaxing.
The child has been out ofschool for two months no, you're
not, it'll come give it a yearchristmas dola, thank you so
much for your time.
Jesper Conrad (43:45):
It's been wonderful talking with you, so
what?
What are you helping peoplewith and how can they get hold
of you?
Dola Dasgupta (43:50):
okay, so the best way to do is drop me an email
and then we kind of figure outwhether we can have a zoom
session or some people preferwriting emails.
I do run a facebook page andI'm admin of so many social
media groups and stuff and I'malways out there typing in
(44:11):
responses, helping people,trying to share ideas and
resources and everything.
But at the end, if they want aface to face, then I of course
do set up a Zoom with them.
It was so nice to talk to you.
Cecilie Conrad (44:25):
I actually think we should make a video again.
If they want a face-to-face,then I of course do set up a
Zoom with them.
It was so nice to talk to you.
Jesper Conrad (44:29):
I actually think we should make a video again.
Dola Dasgupta (44:31):
Yeah, I enjoyed it a lot.
Maybe we can talk about morethings.
Jesper Conrad (44:34):
Yeah, I think we can.
Let's find time for a secondepisode.
Thanks a lot for your time.
It has been a big pleasure.
Cecilie Conrad (44:41):
It was a nice conversation.
Dola Dasgupta (44:42):
Thank you, it was lovely meeting you both.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.