November 9, 2025 • 60 mins
What happens when unschooled teens meet college systems, exams, and external expectations? Jesper and Cecilie Conrad speak with Missy Willis about how adolescents raised with freedom step into formal learning without losing curiosity or confidence. The conversation follows family transitions, changing homes, and the moment when rigor and motivation finally align.
🗓️ Recorded November 4, 2025. 📍 Tarragona, Spain
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesper Conrad (00:00):
Today we are together with the wonderful
Missy Willis, who we had thepleasure of talk with way back
in the start of our podcast.
Your project and your podcastletting go barefoot.
And I was like, oh, there'ssome people out there we have
talked with, I want to talk withagain, and you were among them.
So here we are.
Missy Willis (00:20):
Well, thank you.
Thank you so much for askingme.
I love talking to you.
Jesper Conrad (00:25):
Missy, so what have been going on in your life
since last time?
You're still doing your podcastfrom time to time and still
focused and focused onparenting.
Or where are you in your life?
Missy Willis (00:38):
So that was two years ago.
And at the time, my youngestwas still pretty fully immersed
in sort of homeschoolexperiences and activities.
She has since graduated, movedon to doing what we call dual
enrollment here, which is whereshe takes classes at the
(01:00):
community college.
So she can get high schoolcredit, college credit
simultaneously.
And my son, who he's 23 now, heis he finished getting his
personal trainer's license.
So he's moved on to doing thatand he's starting kind of
developing those skills.
And he's even moving towardsmore entrepreneurial type stuff
(01:22):
there while he's simultaneouslyin college.
So I'm telling you about thembecause their activities
directly impact my activities asthey have over the last, you
know, 20 years of us doing thishomeschooling thing.
And so I've just found lots ofprojects to get involved in.
We've moved.
We moved from our home of 21years and we downsized a little
bit and moved a little furtherout of the city into a smaller
(01:46):
town, different county, whichwas been great.
This was kind of on the backburner for a while.
Living in the city that we werein, the taxes just kept going
up, going up, going up.
And we were like, you know, andwe really wanted to update our
house, but then it was just costprohibitive at that point.
And we were like, maybe it'stime.
So we did.
It was a big deal.
I mean, for a while I resistedit because I loved our house and
(02:09):
that's where I raised mychildren.
So of course I see theirlittle, I just see them all over
the place, right?
But because they're older andthankfully they were able to
provide some comfort to me, evenlike mom, it's good.
We've we've loved this house.
We this house has served uswell and we're okay.
And to the point where my son,one day, when we were at our new
(02:30):
house, it was the firstChristmas last year, and we were
driving around doing stuff, andhe's like, So can we rate on a
scale of one to 10 how much weactually miss the other house?
And for him, it was like barelyanything.
And that was so surprising tome because I felt like as a mom,
I was protecting them byprotecting this house.
And yet it's it was it justmeant something different to me.
(02:51):
And that's something I think isso important to remember as
parents is that just because wefeel it a certain way, does that
mean that they will?
And and they're old enough,obviously, to have an opinion
and they were old enough to haveopinion as a kid, kids as well.
So yeah, my youngest was like,We'll never leave this house.
This is where I'm gonna liveafter you're gone.
When she was like nine yearsold.
(03:12):
But of course, by the time shegot to be, you know, 16, that
was a totally differentperspective.
So so we moved, that was a bigdeal, and then I have started
taking up tutoring again.
I'm working with kids in thecommunity.
I just really missed workingwith families and children
regularly.
And as in the homeschoolingworld, I had a lot of
opportunity to do that.
(03:32):
We got to run activities andlead classes and organize
events, and I'm just not neededin that capacity anymore with my
children.
So I was like, I'm bored.
I had to start findingsomething to do.
And then, you know, I write allthe time too.
So I've got another project I'mworking on with a longtime
friend that's another writingproject.
(03:53):
So that's that's how I'mkeeping busy.
Jesper Conrad (03:55):
Nice.
Can we talk about maybe itwasn't fearful for you, but I
will present it as the fear ofthe step, the time that comes
when you move from homeschoolingtowards day one to start in
college or university.
The whole have I done it goodenough?
(04:17):
Is it now all my fails will beseen?
I have ruined my children'slives.
How was you on that fear level?
If that's the truth.
Missy Willis (04:26):
No, that's a great question because you're right.
It is one of those momentswhere it's like, okay, it's sink
or swim, and whatever we'vedone up to this point, you know.
I think a lot of parents feelthat way, whether you, whether
kids go to school, publicschool, private school, or even
homeschooling, that there's justthis sense of like, did I give
them everything they needed?
Did I do all the things?
But I think because we wereable to, so my oldest sort of
(04:49):
projected this out.
He kind of planned things out.
We knew what was coming and wealso knew what was expected.
So we were able to sort ofbackfill.
So it was like, if you want todo this, you have to do ABC.
If you want to do this, youknow, so we knew kind of what
was needed.
And so he was able to do thevery specific classes andor the
studies that he needed in orderto achieve that next step.
(05:11):
Thankfully, because of thestate that we're in, our
homeschooling laws are reallyrelaxed and it's they give you
quite a bit of freedom tohomeschool as you see fit.
And you do have the ultimatesay in what you feel like your
child is capable of doing.
So it's not like we have togive them some sort of test that
(05:32):
says now you've passed highschool.
It's more what we feel likethey deserve as far as a
transcript looks like.
And because he was taking a lotof classes locally through
different programs that wereavailable, we were able just to
use those.
So it wasn't even really like Ihad to create anything.
It was more like, well, youtook that.
So we can, you know, that's onthe list.
And we took that.
(05:52):
So so there, there'sdefinitely, you know, things
that were done that he was ableto complete that gave him that
satisfaction and thatunderstanding and also gave me
that too.
But also being with them asmuch as I have been, I just know
what they're capable of, youknow, and I know what kind of I
just I just know that whenthey've set their mind to
something, they're gonna do it.
And I'm just a lot of times I'mjust set up, I'm just the
(06:14):
cheerleader.
I'm like, go, go, go, you know,this is what you want.
I'll do whatever I can tosupport you.
And if you need my help, let meknow.
But I will also kind of take aback seat.
I don't want to, I don't wantto try to drive anything.
So now my daughter's doing,like I said, she was nervous.
I will say that with one of theclasses, she was like, Oh, I
don't know, I don't know.
I'm like, take it step by step,you know, if you feel like you
(06:37):
need more deeper diving into aparticular topic or skills that
you need to develop, there's somany ways to go about it.
And they've decided to doeverything virtually too, which
was kind of surprising to me.
I expected them to want to goon site, but then again, they're
very practical people.
So they were like, why would Idrive 30 minutes to drive 30
minutes when I'm taking a45-minute class and I could just
(06:59):
stay in my room and then I'mdone?
Jesper Conrad (07:01):
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (07:02):
Well, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, it's funny actually howour story is just aligned right
now.
So you moved and we just movedtoday, and you did a big fish
and big move, and we did acasual nomadic one, and now
you're talking about thattransition, and and we're
actually in it as well, not withall of ours, because our
(07:24):
youngest is only 13, so he'sstill an actual homeschool
child, child, even.
It's I think it's a lot, it'sit's like high school and the
first year of college, kind of.
(07:45):
You need to have that educationin order to be accepted into
university.
It's really hard to get inwithout that.
So you need the formal papers,and they need to be you can't, I
can't just decide that they'renot if they want to do
university, and they do, so theysuddenly, not suddenly, they've
decided they wanted to douniversity, and now suddenly two
of them, actually, three ofthem, the oldest one as well.
(08:09):
So we have a 26-year-old, she'sdoing that university
preparation course, and so areour 19 and 17-year-olds, and
it's just such a huge change.
It's such a huge change.
I and it happened.
I've been working to make ithappen, helping them to find a
(08:31):
way to get in after beinghomeschooled, as homeschooling
is not normal, or you know,there's just no process for it
in our country because no onereally does it.
We knew we wanted this, andthen suddenly we made it.
Suddenly there was like thisloophole, or this, you know, we
just suddenly there was a crackin all the walls we usually have
(08:51):
been uh banging into trying toget in.
So now suddenly they'restudying, and they're studying
for exams, and we have examdates, and we have curriculum,
and we have the pressure, and wehave to you know plan out
things, sit three hours a day,and it's come we you know, I'm
(09:12):
ordering school books on Amazon.
Jesper Conrad (09:14):
It's just it.
Cecilie Conrad (09:16):
I mean, I was a whole an unschooler two months
ago, and I'm still anunschooler, I think, but you
know you know, that's just justreally strange.
Jesper Conrad (09:26):
I I think it's really interesting to see a
brain that has been focused onlearning and doing exactly what
it wanted, saying to ourdaughter saying to herself,
okay, so I need to understandthis math here to get in.
I've never been interested init.
(09:47):
And now she has three months toread up the whole curriculum
from uh nine years, and she'slike, Okay, if that's what it
takes, I will do it.
And seeing her brain go intothat year is interesting, but
it's also interesting to seethis, it's a different kind of
tired you get, and also thebrain also gets fulfilled in
(10:10):
another way.
There's something about maththat is interesting for the
brain to puzzle with and workwith, and there's an another
part of the brain that isinteresting to work with when
you work with animals.
It's just like differentmuscles that need to be trained.
I find it interesting to seethem go like all of a sudden,
okay, now now I'm done.
(10:31):
Now, and then the brain justneeds to relax for some hours.
Yeah.
Missy Willis (10:36):
Yeah, I I've for sure seen what I believe to be
the direct result of being ableto follow your interest, learn
at a pace that makes sense foryou, without comparing yourself
constantly to 20 plus otherkids.
There's a sense ofunderstanding about themselves
(10:58):
that maybe they would havegotten if they were in the
public school or traditionalschool setting, but it just
feels like there's a lot of lessextra stuff to work through.
And then they just understandwhat they need to do.
And then they also don't havethat burnout.
So the fact that they didn'thave to do the K through 12
curriculum, be up every day forsomebody else's schedule and not
(11:19):
be able to rest when theywanted to, and all those things.
Their desire to do theseclasses and to do this
coursework is so much moreexciting.
You know, they're just like,let's do this, you know, I'm
ready.
So it's like their brain is somuch more open to and ready for.
And they also see the point ofit.
You know, it's not like just doit because it's more like I'm
(11:40):
doing it because.
So they have a reason for doingclasses to get to the next
step.
And the reality is we do have asystem set up across, you know,
many countries where it's like,in order to do B, you have to
do A, ensure there's ways tocircumvent those sorts of
things.
And, you know, so I wasn't sureif my son was going to pursue
the four-year degree.
(12:00):
And and my whole thing from thevery beginning is always choose
what makes sense for you andyou're able to pivot and modify
when needed, you know.
And I think we put such atimeline on everything, you
know, it's like by 18, you haveto do this, and by 20, you have
to do this.
And I just I pulled it back andit's like, let's just slow it
down a little bit.
And and some people may arguethat it is good for kids in
(12:23):
order to be within their sort ofpeer groups around the same
doing kind of the same things.
But I kind of pushed back onthat a little bit because I'm
like, but I don't want the peergroup to be the driving force.
I want their internal being thedriving force, you know.
So now that he's pursuing afour-year degree, he's
technically, you know, a year orso behind his same-age peers.
(12:46):
But in my mind, he's verycomfortable because he's built
all these different skills thathe knows what works for him and
what doesn't, what lights him upand what doesn't.
And he's also saved money, youknow.
I mean, he was investing at 17.
And so this like it'sfascinating to me because I'm
like, I wish somebody, I wish Iwould have known to do that at
(13:08):
17, or somebody would have beenlike, hey, take your money and
put it in something.
Because, you know, now he's gotthis understanding of finances
in a way that I did not have atthat age.
And he is just very solid inkind of the direction he wants
to go.
And I really appreciate thatfor him.
Jesper Conrad (13:24):
Yeah, Missy, I have a question, which is I
can't remember how homeschooled,unschooled in a curriculum you
your version of homeschoolingwas.
And actually, very latecompared to how you see it being
(13:50):
pushed into school's flow ofwhat they need to learn when.
It is like something happensaround 14, 15, 16, that when
puberty hit, and after the wholehormone bump had been thrown
and like they're settling down,then it's like their brain wakes
up in a new way.
Missy Willis (14:10):
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well, I I for sure saw that.
It was a very clear, like Ialmost noticed it in
photographs, even just howthey're it's almost like their
faces changed, you know.
They're just the way theypresent themselves, the way they
they look.
It it's sort of like from oneyear to the next, you can see
this.
And so my son was about 15 whenhe was like, I'm ready for
(14:32):
something a little bit more.
And my daughter was probablyabout 16.
And she and and she's alwaysbeen very creative.
So she was always drawing,drawing, drawing.
But it it is, it's it's justclear that they want something
different and a little bit more.
And I think you're right.
I think there is somethingabout the brain at that age
(14:53):
where they're just like tryingto like all this experiences
they've had up to that point,now they're trying to level it
up a little bit and trying toapply it all.
Jesper Conrad (15:04):
When I look at it and I look at how we're doing
schools, then I get verygrateful for the rest that we're
able to give our preteens orpre-pupesant teenagers that they
have time to be children.
Yes.
And then the whole hormone bumpis thrown into the mix and they
(15:26):
go into puberty, and it is wildyears for some of them.
There's a lot of emotions andnew things happening in the body
that they need to take uh tofigure out.
And when they land after that,then it's like the brain is
hungry after something, and thatmakes me very grateful to
(15:48):
homeschool.
But I can also see that if youhave a child in school and they
need to live through thisperiod, and with all the social
life and peer orientation thatgoes on in the schools, then
there's not a lot of time forthe actual brain work that would
need to be done in those two orthree years, where if you don't
(16:10):
have a schedule, you're nottogether with 28 other people
most of the day, then you canactually do math mathematics
like our daughter does now threeor four hours a day.
She started like shown inbecause she really wanted to
understand it.
And for our son, it was otherthings he went into, and I can
(16:32):
see now our youngest he is onthe not the height of puberty
hitting, but it is hitting.
It has been difficult for him,and now he is slowly landing,
and the landing will take longertime because he it is just uh
physic uh physical.
(16:53):
He it will take time, he willgrow and everything.
But I can already see the lotuh the desire to do and change
and have aspirations for whatyou want to do in life is
coming.
This front shift from being achild to be a young adult.
It's interesting to see.
Missy Willis (17:14):
Yeah, it's really amazing.
And it's um, and it's exactlylike you were saying, that the
the time that they have in orderto really go through those
changes and transition is, Ithink, one of the biggest
travity travesties of our ourexperience here is that we've
taken their time, we've stolentheir time.
(17:35):
And it's you know, I've it'sthere, I'll see, because I used
to teach, I was trained as ateacher and have friends who
were trained as teachers and wewould share stories.
And, you know, one of myfriends, she started
homeschooling before I did andintroduced me to home schooling.
And uh, you know, one of thethings that she had said was, I
just feel like that we've we'vestolen children's full potential
(17:58):
because we've told them whatthey should do and and we've
told them what they should dowith their time.
And then I think when we we'vetaken the time like we have,
we've also taken their theflexibility that they have to
pursue different interests.
And I I mean, I think you know,we we all have influences in
(18:21):
our lives, depending on where welive, our family, you know, our
cultures.
And I think that thoseinfluences are never gonna go
anywhere.
But there's that internal, Ijust keep going back to that
internal clock or internal voicethat really got to be ignited
during the younger years, andand then they got to be really
(18:45):
true to themselves through theirteenage years in a way that
might have been trickier if theywere immersed in the thousand
children school in our in ourcity.
So I'm I'm very happy for that.
I know my son, and this is theother piece of it, and maybe you
guys have experienced this too,since you have older children,
but he's been able to like seethe world from different
(19:07):
perspectives with all thedifferent people he's interacted
with.
And he's told me thank youseveral times.
And he's just so grateful.
And I'm like, oh, that likemakes me teary thinking about it
because you go through thosephases as a mom, as a parent in
general, where you're wondering,Am I doing it wrong?
Did I did I did I make a badmistake?
Should I have should I've putthem in school?
(19:27):
Did I steal these opportunitiesfrom them by making this
decision?
And and I will say we made itas a family.
Like, I mean, sure, I instalike I started it, and every
year we sort of re-evaluated,and then we were like, Are we
happy with what we're doing?
Do we want to keep going?
And the kids were like, Yes,and then we would reevaluate
again.
And there was at one point,well, one of them really did
(19:49):
think that maybe school would befun, but then the realization
was you have to be up at thistime and you don't get to come
home when you want to, and youhave to stay until this time,
and then it was like, nevermind.
Jesper Conrad (20:00):
So yeah, I have this thought, which is and it
has happened inside the lastcouple of years, and it has been
more profound since I turned 50last winter, and it is I
actually in some ways feel notwiser, but that I come back to
(20:27):
some of the clean-spiritedvalues I had when I was a teen.
I remember being very strong onsome opinions about how to
treat animals and you shouldn'tlitter, and a lot of stuff
around when I was 11, 12, 13,14.
And then it went down therabbit hole of being a young boy
(20:51):
partying and having a lot offun.
And and I took my values andpushed them aside.
And I don't know if it's theage thing or just me maturing uh
slow or whatever, but afterI've turned 50, I'm like, I I
see that I'm in some sense morethe boy that I was before I got
(21:15):
my values skewed by young adultparty and trying to be like
everyone else's lives.
How do you feel about growingolder?
Missy Willis (21:24):
I turned 50 three years ago, and it was one of
those where it's you know, youhear the number and it sounds
older than it is.
So for me, it was like, okay,50 is just a number, you know,
age is all in your mind.
Thankfully, and I I use this asmy my guide, my grandmother
lived to be 100 years old.
She died in 2019, and she wasactually doing really well up
(21:49):
until like three weeks, fourweeks before she passed.
We had our 100th birthday partyand she died a month later.
So it was just like downhillquick.
But anyway, all that to say Ithink of her and I'm like, you
know, she used to always say shewas gonna live to 100.
So it's like she put it in herown mind and that sort of mind
ever matter thing, you know,with like, oh, you're aging.
It's like, no, just put putyour mind to whatever, whatever
(22:10):
it is you want to do.
But I will say, the this timefor me is such a reflection, a
reflecting time because of thefact that my kids are older.
And I've always kind of been ain my head sort of person.
I've spent like I always jokeand say I'm never alone because
I don't get bored really easilyat all.
(22:31):
I can just sit here and thinkabout stuff and plan and
organize and consider and youknow, run through philosophy and
all things.
But I I appreciate the factthat I can age, I feel,
gracefully at this point inlife.
And, you know, I I don't feellike I have very many regrets in
(22:51):
the choices that I made withwhat we did as a family.
There's a lot of pressure inour society, I think, for women
to have it all.
And and that means for somepeople, full-time career,
full-time family.
And to me, I just see that as arecipe for burnout because I
just feel like you can't giveyour all to everything.
And so you have to make somechoices and sacrifices here and
(23:14):
there.
But what's been interesting,and I've talked to several
homeschool moms actually who areat this age range, it's like
they spent their earlier yearsraising their families, and now
they're spending their olderyears kind of doing work that
they love.
So it's almost like a backwardsrecipe than what's a lot of
other people have done, wherethey spent their earlier years
(23:36):
being in career, and now theirchildren are grown and moved,
and now they're taking a stepback from their career.
So, you know, there's obviouslychoices, everybody makes the
decisions that work for them.
But for me at this point, it'sbeen just really nice to have
the flexibility to do work thatI love and I care about, and
that I also get to see mychildren kind of launching and
(23:59):
doing what makes them happy.
Jesper Conrad (24:02):
I like it.
Cecilie Conrad (24:03):
Can I circle back to I was just thinking
about when you said you said twothings about how your kids are
choosing to do their educationonline instead of showing up in
some building?
And then you said somethingabout peers and same-age peers
(24:24):
and learning with them.
I was just thinking, actually,it's fun when you're 17 to be
around other teenagers.
It's not an mom is not enough,you know, and and aunts and
uncles and neighbors.
It's nice to have a group ofother young people between
whatever, 10 and 20, 25, even.
(24:46):
Doesn't have to be the sameage, but younger people between
childhood and family life, let'ssay.
Maybe even before university,before mid-20s.
I see that they need that, orthey do enjoy it a lot,
especially if it's a big group,there's someone to pick from so
you can find your favorites.
(25:07):
I see that, but I do not seethat they would need to learn
with them.
So if they put their mind onlearning a new language, or we
have one who's diving into mathright now, or whatever it is, I
do not see that they need thelearning to happen in that
(25:28):
context.
And I think there's just somuch of this school-based
mindset where we mix that up.
Even recently, I spoke to awoman who has one child out of
school, two in school, and oneis one of the two in school is
on her way out of school, andshe said, but then she was in
(25:50):
school, and I picked her up, andshe actually wanted to stay
because she was playing with herfriends, and and she didn't
want to go home.
So now I have this doubt.
Maybe I should keep her inschool.
And I'm thinking, well, youwere trying to pick her up while
she was playing with herfriends, it was the playing that
was fun, not the school part.
(26:11):
When the kids say they loveschool, what they do love is
usually mostly their friends.
They love spending time withtheir friends outside of school
or on social media platforms,they text each other during the
class.
It's not about learningtogether.
A lot, especially young people.
I mean, they if you need to sitdown and learn something, it's
(26:35):
like I don't like to walkthrough a museum with my friends
unless they are as interestedas I am.
Because I want to chat with myfriends.
I enjoy sitting at a cafe withmy friend or go on a random walk
on the beach with a friend.
But if I'm there to learnsomething or to take in specific
artists, something like that, Iactually'd rather, well, I like
to do it with my kids, butotherwise I'd rather be alone.
(26:58):
Don't distract me.
So it's this just this confusedidea, I think.
And even with now your kids aredoing, I don't know, higher
education.
It's not basic schooling.
They choose to do somethingthat's more, I don't know,
academic of some sort.
Do they need to do it aroundother kids?
(27:18):
I don't think so.
Missy Willis (27:20):
I don't I agree with you.
I think it's a distraction fora lot of children, you know, and
I think it's kind of this onesize fits all.
Like everybody come into aroom, we're gonna tell you
information, and then you'regonna take it in and study it.
So they have to take it bythemselves home and study it
generally anyway, unless theychoose to work together in small
groups.
But, you know, I think that'sso important to highlight
(27:44):
because it does take time totake in new information and to
study it and repeat it in a waythat works for you.
And you're absolutely rightthat all the times that I've
talked to kids over the years,it's like we joke about the one
of the neighbors that we grew upwith or that my children grew
up with, and he'd come home fromschool, we're like, What'd you
do at school today?
What was your favorite part?
Lunch and recess.
Cecilie Conrad (28:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Missy Willis (28:08):
Walking there and walking back as well.
Yeah, walking home, seeing so,and we we spent a lot of time
like cultivating the communityaspect of of our homeschool
experience.
And my children had, you know,friends that they did sports
with and friends that they didoutings with, and you know, it
was kind of if they justdeveloped that over time.
(28:31):
So that you're right.
I mean, they would spend daylike hours together, you know,
playing or exploring or beingtogether, playing sports,
whatever.
And then when they were readyto be, you know, needed to sit
still or read a book orwhatever, they would come home
and do that.
Jesper Conrad (28:47):
About cultivating community.
Before we started recording,you asked about the world school
village, which we had justfinished.
The whole goal of that is tocultivate community, create a
village for people who traveleither full-time or want to step
into it, or just want toimmerse themselves in social
(29:09):
life for a month.
We just finished it three daysago.
My brain is still slowly tryingto figure out what I've learned
from it.
Uh, but to explain the idea,then it was pretty simple.
It has grew out, grown out ofother things we have dipped our
toes in, where we have been onsome world school pub up hubs
(29:31):
that was a week where a lot oftraveling families met in the
same city for a week, and therewas an itinerary, and people
were there, and a lot of greatfriendship created.
But we just thought it was alittle stressful with just one
week, and our kids they reallywanted to spend longer time
together with these people.
So we decided to take a citythat showed to be even more
(29:57):
fantastic than we could havedreamt of, dreamt of.
Aragona in Spain.
It's an old Roman city.
It was one of the headquartersof the Roman Empire.
So much history, so muchbeauty.
And it's right next to a beach,and it's still hot here in this
period.
And it's in Catalonia wherethey are still keeping their
(30:19):
local culture alive because theyspeak another language than the
rest of Spain.
So it has just been likeoverwhelming.
But basically, they we ended upinviting a lot of people, 35 or
40 families signed up, andprimarily families with teens.
So we have had, I think, 70teens together during this
(30:43):
month.
And it has been a lot of fun, alot of talking, a lot of late
nights, because apparently.
You know what, Missy, I heardmyself almost in the voice of my
mom say, Yeah, is it reallymore fun after 12?
Yes, it is.
Missy Willis (31:02):
Oh my god, yes, but he was such an old man.
Oh, yeah.
You hear that old voice comeout.
Cecilie Conrad (31:06):
You're like, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait a minute.
Yes, it is actually more funafter midnight.
Jesper Conrad (31:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (31:13):
Okay, you asked the question, you got the
answer.
Yes, it is more fun at three inthe morning.
Jesper Conrad (31:18):
But it it has been really good and we have
enjoyed it a lot, and now we areslowing down with just taking a
month where we're only four orfive families, so still a lot of
social life.
But I think that it issomething we have wanted in our
life.
Also, when we look back at whenwe were stationary, then we use
(31:39):
a lot of time and energy ondriving to our people.
Because when you live, you buya house on a street, maybe your
next door neighbors are not yourpeople.
You can be polite and eat atdinner, but if they're not your
people, they're not your people.
So we we ended up with like alot of logistics in Copenhagen.
Cecilie Conrad (32:01):
But that is also due to the fact that home
education is very rare.
Jesper Conrad (32:06):
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (32:07):
Where we come to have to drive.
But we say long distances.
We're speaking to an American.
Jesper Conrad (32:13):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (32:14):
Nothing is okay in Denmark.
Missy Willis (32:16):
Our country is like your backyard.
Well, and I was gonna say, whenyou say long distance to you,
like what does that mean?
Is that like you know, fivemiles or not even an hour.
What is that?
Cecilie Conrad (32:27):
Less than an hour.
Most of my friends lived withinan hour, and I could even bike
to most of them within an hour.
It wasn't that bad.
Jesper Conrad (32:34):
No, no, no.
Cecilie Conrad (32:35):
But it was chasing friends.
That was, but I think for mosthomeschoolers, actually, that's
the main thing, right?
The main problem is where arethe other people?
Because most of the otherpeople are in the mainstream
life, and we're just living adifferent life.
Jesper Conrad (32:50):
Yeah, and it made me think about my own process
of going from that that went towork to dad that stays at home,
which is I realized that part ofmy social battery is filled and
was filled by going to work,talking with Collee.
(33:11):
But the fun thing then is itmaybe wasn't filled my social
battery with the qualitydialogues I really wanted,
because I'm not a big fan offootball or news or anything
like that.
So a lot of the chats I hadwith people at the office were
for me a little uninteresting.
(33:31):
So now I get to choose them,but I also recognize that when
you are at home, and it must beI've never been a stay-at-home
mom, there is this how do youfill your social battery?
How do you find those people?
Because the life has not thisbuilt-in pseudo social life that
(33:52):
work and school has.
What you do as a as ahomeschool mom to get the
dialogues, the talks you needed.
Missy Willis (34:02):
Well, so I feel like I could talk to anybody,
and I have so you know, onething that I've talked to a lot
of parents about is to ensurethey are understanding of their
needs.
Like you just said, what do youneed in terms of being
introverted, extroverted, orkind of in the middle, and then
pay attention to what yourchildren need because sometimes
they don't align, and mom mighthave to go out of the kids to
(34:26):
get what she needs if she's muchmore social, etc.
So I really was thankfully thefriends that my children made
over time ended up being parentsthat I became friends with.
So that was hugely important.
And so that while the kidsplayed, the parents talked, you
(34:46):
know, and sometimes we wouldlike have play cards or, you
know, have tea together or justsit and dream up ideas.
And one of my friends wasreally into creative stuff, and
so she and I coordinated ayearbook for our co-op.
So we took photos of the kidsand then we turned it into a
photo album for the families topurchase at the end of the year
(35:09):
so that we made sure we hadrepresentation of everyone and
all of our activities.
So I've always found somethingto keep my mind busy and
interested in and connected withpeople, a lot of times through
my children.
So that just worked out thatway.
It wasn't intentional, wasn'tplanned out like, oh, I'll be
friends with this person, thatperson.
It was more just a naturaldevelopment of friendship that
(35:30):
happened over time.
And then, of course, with theco-ops that we were involved in.
Do you all did y'all do co-opsor have that?
Cecilie Conrad (35:37):
Probably not, because you were saying it's way
too small where we come from.
I mean, we will talk about it alittle bit.
I think also so now it's sevenand a half years since we left
Denmark starting the full-timenomadic life.
So actually, I wouldn't be ableto say how exactly.
I think they do co-ops now.
(35:58):
Yeah, they do something likethat.
But back when we were homeeducating and living stationary
in Copenhagen, there were veryfew families doing it.
It was a very powerfulcommunity of families.
We were very close.
We were all free thinkers in away.
We were we were allout-of-the-box thinkers, and we
(36:21):
all had this power, this coreidea that we I want to do it the
things my way.
I'm not doing things becauseother people do it this way or
because that's how it's alwaysbeen done.
But it wasn't the same choicepeople made.
We were all very different, butwe had a lot of respect for
those differences, and we gottogether to be social.
(36:44):
It was always just to be socialbecause all the other stuff we
could do on our own.
So we didn't do co-ops becausepeople did not want that kind of
structured cooperation of homeeducating life because we were
so we're such a bunch ofanarchists, basically.
(37:05):
No one wanted any rules to beset for them of any sort or any
pre-booking of their calendars,or was so fun.
We had a union for homeeducators in Denmark.
We were like five people on theboard, and we were all actually
anarchists, and it was justthis, you know, how do we even
set up a meeting?
(37:26):
How do we agree on how to talkabout things?
Because none of us are going tocomply to any rules, not even
rules we ourselves decidecreated, yeah.
We're going to break them.
It was right.
Well, we had a lot of fun doingit.
So that was the vibe 10 yearsago when we were part of it, and
(37:46):
I think that has changed a lot.
Jesper Conrad (37:50):
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (37:51):
So we're not, we can't even say how it looks
now.
I all I can say is what fromwhat from hearsay, it's
different now.
Jesper Conrad (38:00):
It is a growing community, which is wonderful.
Cecilie Conrad (38:03):
Way bigger community, but it's also a
community where a lot of peoplein the movement are thinking
doing homeschooling because theythink the school is not doing
its job well enough, and they'rebasically just trying to do the
school's job better at home.
Missy Willis (38:18):
So it's not like so they're doing more academic
stuff, it's very academic-heavy.
Cecilie Conrad (38:23):
Yeah, and with the same kind of structure that
the parents decide there's acurriculum, there's this struct
play dates, and you know, thewhole if you're in a co-op, you
have to show up every time.
If you don't, you'll be kickedout.
It's completely like astructure of the backbone of a
school situation.
And I'm sounding veryjudgmental.
Maybe I even am judgmental, butactually, I think homeschooling
(38:47):
is very often a better choicethan not homeschooling anyway.
So, and and if they do whatmakes them happy, then they
should totally do it.
I just think it's a little bitsad when you're stepping out of
a system only to copy it.
Yeah, maybe just take thatmoment of stepping out to think
about how do I want to structurethis or do I want to structure
(39:11):
it at all?
Missy Willis (39:12):
So I mean sometimes those people
eventually get there becausethey realize you can't run that
sort of a system in your homewith multiple age kids when
you're just one person, youknow.
I think the overwhelmeventually causes them to like
sit and think about how theywant to restructure stuff.
I mean, I had two kids, andthere were times where I was
like, How am I supposed to getyour needs met and your needs
(39:35):
met when y'all both want me atthe same time?
So yeah, I can only imaginewhat it'd be like.
Cecilie Conrad (39:39):
It's actually been the main thing for me and
still is to this day where theyoungest is almost 14.
Stretching myself in so manydifferent directions, and now
even being nomadic.
Now we have that layer on top.
It's not just the question ofsomeone needs silence, another
(40:00):
one wants to listen to a podcastand do watercolor, a third one
wants to discuss something.
That's very often the problemof the homeschooling mom that
you just have to be fivedifferent people at the same
time.
And yes, she can't.
Missy Willis (40:14):
Yes, especially when they have different
activities and things to do.
And I joked and said thathomeschooling was literally
making food for everybodybecause breakfast, you woke up
and now you want breakfast.
You woke up and now you wantbreakfast, and then I'm getting
ready to start something, andthen the other one's like, hey,
when's lunch?
And you're just like, ah, justforget it.
We're not doing what I had setout to do.
But yeah, it you're I think isa great point to bring up
(40:36):
because some people doromanticize it to the point of
like just bring them home andeverything will work out.
And I'm like, you gottaremember you need support, like
psychological support, but alsoliteral physical support in
order to make sure you haveenough hands for everybody.
Jesper Conrad (40:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (40:53):
We need the village, and actually, good
hack, teach them to makebreakfast themselves, at least
one because they wake up at somany different times.
And for my kids, also, they allwell, that's a lie.
One of them is that veryefficient, but the rest of them,
they have such elaboratebreakfasts in very different
(41:15):
directions, they're making verydifferent meals for breakfast,
but it's all it's not justcornflakes milk, end of story.
It's like a half-hour project,and not the same.
It's not like, oh, could youdouble today and make for me as
well?
Because they don't want thesame thing.
And I had a meltdown, Iremember, maybe six or seven
(41:37):
years ago.
I was like, shit, I just can'tkeep supporting this, it's
thriving me insane.
I'm spending two and a halfhours every morning supporting
your breakfast project.
It's like a wedding meal.
I mean, can we just have cornflakes or can you do it
yourself?
So I started actually doing mymorning runs.
(41:57):
And the deal was that was whenwe lived in a bus.
So that was a very, very smallspace we were all sharing.
And I told them, I'm going fora run, and when I come back,
you're all done eating.
I just don't want to be part ofthis.
I'm leaving mom's out.
Jesper Conrad (42:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (42:14):
That works, it's a good happy just leave, let
them figure it out themselves,the morning thing at least.
Jesper Conrad (42:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And also eating together, it'ssuch a good time.
Cecilie Conrad (42:23):
It's great to share meals, but maybe cooking
all day long.
Jesper Conrad (42:28):
It's not this easy.
Missy Willis (42:29):
When we ran into that, my husband ended up
working from home and heactually loved to cook, which
was wonderful because he wasreally into doing the dinner
meals, but he liked to tinker.
So his meals took a long timebecause he would do this and
then he would start to grill,and then and then and I was so
used to efficiency.
Like we eat, we get up, we dosomething, we eat, get up, do
(42:50):
something.
So, but I always joked andsaid, Well, I'll take breakfast,
lunch, snacks, and shopping,and you take dinner, and then I
could just be done.
So that was great for mebecause I was able to just do
whatever I needed to do with thekids or run off on my own or or
whatever.
So I knew meals were taken careof.
But you really do have to thinkabout all those things, and
it's not, it doesn't justhappen.
(43:11):
Like somebody has to take thelead or at least bring everybody
to the table to have aconversation about it because
you're right.
Otherwise, you're just neverdoing anything, but cooking and
cleaning.
Cecilie Conrad (43:22):
Cooking cleaning, and actually on that
note, take everyone to the tableand talk about it.
That's another experience I'vehad having more than one child.
We have a fairly big familynow.
We also both of our daughtershave boyfriends, so sometimes we
have that in the matrix thatwe're yeah, it's like an ebb and
flow size family.
(43:43):
But sometimes we're a lot ofpeople, and you think you can
sit everyone down and then youcan discuss let's say the plan
of the week.
So when are we going to themuseum?
When are we seeing thecathedral?
When are we doing the big shop?
Can we coordinate a cleanup?
Something like that.
But actually, that whole familymeeting situation never worked
for us.
I don't think we've had onesit-down family meeting, all
(44:06):
five of us, six, seven, eight ofus, to have a good conversation
that ended up with actualdecisions.
What happens in our families, Ihave to do one by one, talk to
them about the options, talk tothem about their needs, because
they don't all speak up.
Some of them just want themeeting over and done with, and
(44:26):
then you're like, whatever, I'mout.
But then when the actual thinghappens, and that can even be
the adults.
Oh, I didn't sign up for this,you know.
Jesper Conrad (44:34):
No, but the underlying thing is also that
sometimes one of them can wantto be polite to and say, Oh,
yeah, that's a good idea.
And then when they think aboutit, sometimes some people
process fast, from some peopleprocess with their feelings and
take more time.
The the good or bad, it's fine.
Cecilie Conrad (44:52):
I'm just I think it's another misunderstanding
that's out there for somefamilies, it just works.
They can just sit down, there'sa good list of things they have
to decide on, they get it alldone, everyone's discussing, and
it takes maybe an hour, and allthe decisions are made for the
week, and it's great, or for thewhatever decision that for our
(45:13):
family, and that never worked.
But the way everyone gets thevote and the voice is that
basically I have a conversationwith everyone about whatever's
up, and then at the end of theday, I make the decisions.
Okay, then we do it this way,and everyone's been heard.
Missy Willis (45:30):
And I think it that is that way, because from
what it sounds like, you I mean,you do have those conversations
with your kids, you know,you're open to hearing their
opinion about things, and you'renot just gonna say, all right,
everybody has to make adecision, it's a democracy where
you get a one person, one vote,you know, who the highest vote
wins.
But and so, again, I mean, evenjust with two kids, we ran into
that.
It was like, how do peoplethink we can educate 25 kids in
(45:54):
a classroom when I can't getfour people to agree on dinner?
Yes, you know, you it's justnot a sensible system.
Jesper Conrad (46:02):
So Missy, you mentioned that you are in the
process of or starting up a newwriting project.
What is it you want to explore?
What is it that you're lookinginto, and how far ahead are you?
Missy Willis (46:21):
So this project came about from a friend of
mine.
I met her before children, andI worked, I don't know if we
talked about this last time ornot, but so I ended up working
one of my first jobs out ofcollege was at the Duke
University Medical Center ADHDstudy.
So they had a multi, multi-sitestudy that was sponsored by the
(46:45):
National Institute of MentalHealth.
And I had a psychology degree,and my psychology professor, who
was my advisor, found out aboutthis job and got me connected.
And so I was one of theresearch assistants and
behavioral people that was hiredto help the study go go forth.
And so I met her, and thatstudy opened my eyes to the
(47:07):
world of pharmacology andpsychology and psychiatry and so
many things and familydynamics, and it really kind of
impressed upon me how importantit is for the family unit to be
able to communicate well withone another and how often
families lose sort of control oftheir lives because of the
(47:29):
different ways their childrenare in the community, whether
it's through the medical systemor social services or the
schooling system.
And it helped me kind of, Iguess, narrow down my drive to
understand the family systembetter.
So, anyway, all that to say,she and I reconnected recently
(47:51):
and she ended up going thebehavioral consultant route in
the public school system andhelped develop programs for
children with autism in theschools where she lived.
And then, of course, I went thehomeschool route.
So we thought it would betogether.
We thought it would be fun tocome together and create sort of
a guide in a similar vein thatwe did that I did the guide with
(48:13):
Ann, but for children who areuniquely wired.
And by that, we are saying kidswho have been diagnosed and or
are in the system or who aren'tdiagnosed, but who tend to march
to the beat of their own drum.
And by that we mean they don'tnecessarily learn the way that
the standard school model wantsthem to, but they haven't been
(48:34):
diagnosed either, and or theparents don't want them to be.
So we're trying to put togetherjust some really supportive
pieces of information based onresearch, based on our own
experiences of how to supporttheir children and also to give
them the language to speak inthose different settings.
Because I mean, let's face it,if you're if you haven't studied
(48:57):
that world and you have a childthat all of a sudden becomes
diagnosed with ADHD or learningdisability and they're in the
school system, it'soverwhelming.
You know, it's a lot to takein.
Some parents just feel reallylost.
And so our goal is to try tohelp parents in that setting and
out of that situation, have thehave the tools and the and the
(49:19):
language, and to also from myperspective and my input is to
see learning differently thanwhat the school system says, and
also that homeschooling is anoption.
So I'm sort of the homeschoolself-directed, you know, look at
the bigger picture voice.
And she's kind of the here'sthe system that I've been in,
(49:39):
and here's what we have seenworked.
And so it's it's a it's gonna,it's challenging, I will tell
you.
I've been I've been a bitchallenged on it because not
that it's not that I can't doit, it's more that some of the
stuff, it's hard because workingwith the kids that I've worked
with recently, they're kids whogo to private school or public
school, but they've been testedand or diagnosed recently with
(50:02):
like a learning disability ordyslexia.
And while all of that, youknow, I believe is is reality
for some children, it's theexpectation for them to keep up
with everybody in that classroomsetting that I feel like is
just so hard because if theycould just be in a different
setting, then those issues wouldprobably not be as pronounced.
Jesper Conrad (50:25):
But it sounds like you're working on a book
that also can help the parentsto get a language that they can
use when in dialogue with theauthorities, because when you
don't have a language about it,then there is the risk that you
just lay down flat and say, Yes,give give me the drugs, and I
(50:48):
will put my kid in school, andthey will just try to keep up
with that level they need to beon, uh, according to this.
Where uh to open the door forthem and say, Yes, there are
other opportunities.
Missy Willis (51:02):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah, yeah.
So we're hoping to get thatdone and be ready in 2026, kind
of the beginning of the year.
That's our goal.
Jesper Conrad (51:11):
Oh, that's soon.
That's soon, yeah.
Missy Willis (51:14):
That's yeah, we've been working on it for several
months now, and we're we'rekeeping it we're as as we did
with the other one.
It's I want to keep itmanageable because there are so
many books available, right?
I mean, parents can get online,they can watch things on
YouTube.
I mean, there's amazingresources available.
But what we found is that it'sso overwhelming.
(51:36):
And so we're trying to justreally just very nuts and bolts
it, but also give them templatesand actual checklists and
things that they can utilize.
They could just print it outand take it to a meeting with a
with a you know teacher oradministrator or even their
doctor and and have things thatare available that aren't that
don't require hours and hoursand hours of research on their
(51:57):
part.
Because a lot of times, as youknow, I mean, you get busy as a
family, it's hard to do that.
And then if you have a childwho has a lot of um additional
things to take intoconsideration, especially if
they're in the system, you know,it can it can get overwhelming
quick.
Jesper Conrad (52:12):
Oh yes.
Cecilie Conrad (52:14):
Yeah, and then maybe you don't act, I mean you
have you have the the real lifejust reality of cooking the
meals and talking to the kidsand holding the laundry and
whatever, doing your jobs ofvarious sorts, reading piles of
books about a new problem yourpet family apparently has.
It's not necessarily doable.
Jesper Conrad (52:36):
If people want to get to know when the book is
coming out, can they sign up toyour newsletter?
Where will they find you ifthey want to know more about
what's coming?
Missy Willis (52:49):
Yeah, so I haven't really even shared any of this
on my social media yet on LetThem Go Barefoot because wanting
to get a little further alongwith it, but I will be sharing
it soon.
And I do have a Substacknewsletter, which you can find a
link to that on my Instagrampage on Let Them Go Barefoot.
So that's where I'll be sharinginformation and I'll send it in
(53:09):
a Substack newsletter and I'llalso just share information and
I'll start sharing the pageitself.
So who I'm working with, shestarted her own that she started
an Instagram page for thisproject.
And so we're just kind ofstarting all of that and getting
it kind of ready to go.
So I'll start pushing it out alittle closer to the time of us
of being ready for uh for it tobe in the world.
(53:30):
But thank you for asking.
Cecilie Conrad (53:33):
Well, we could talk again in about, I don't
know, six months.
Well, yeah, yeah, wait a minutefor a while and then tell me
how it went.
Yeah.
Missy Willis (53:41):
I know I am looking forward to it.
It's it's definitely it's it'sit's stretching me.
Like I said, I mean, I'm havingto dive back into things that I
hadn't really thought about ina while.
And uh and and also it's justreally interesting how it's kind
of come together given thatI've been working with kids now
who've been in the classroomsetting again and the things
that I'm seeing and stuff that'skind of you know been there
(54:01):
before in my mind, but now it'sbeing reinforced.
And so it's um it I think it'llbe timely, and I'm hoping
people will get something out ofit.
Jesper Conrad (54:11):
Absolutely.
And the challenging part of itis uh interesting because going
from, and it's a natural journeywhen you take and move yourself
away from the norm.
Sometimes you start by beingagainst the norm to find the
power in yourself to dare takingthe steps.
So, so I've been from I myjourney has been from being
(54:37):
that's weird, my dear wife.
Why do you want to homeschool?
That's some weird shit.
What's going on?
Cecilie Conrad (54:43):
The first word you said was completely crazy.
Jesper Conrad (54:46):
Yeah, something like that.
To let's burn the schools down,period.
Cecilie Conrad (54:51):
Now we're somewhere in between.
Jesper Conrad (54:52):
So now I'm like, I really want to change the
world.
I cannot open make a change forfor unschoolers.
It's parents, it's uh dads outthere.
We need to we need to geteveryone on board of taking more
control of their own life andmake the difference.
And a lot of people there, itis it is like plus 90% of people
(55:18):
have their kids in schools.
Yeah.
So of course, of course, weneed to be able to help them and
the ones who have children whodon't learn in the standardized
school way.
They need a helping hand to notbe burned out by the system.
Cecilie Conrad (55:37):
Okay, I feel like we're opening a new
conversation, but I just feellike saying everyone is learning
in the standardized schoolsystem.
It's devastating what some ofthem are learning.
Learning to be helpless, yeah,learning that they're hopeless,
learning that they have no powerover their lives.
I mean, it's horrible.
Jesper Conrad (55:58):
Yeah, the starting.
Missy Willis (55:59):
We call we call that the hidden curriculum.
Exactly.
Jesper Conrad (56:03):
Oh, that's oh wow.
I like that.
Missy Willis (56:06):
Yeah, yeah, it's called the hidden curriculum.
It's what's being taught that'snot being taught.
Jesper Conrad (56:11):
We had a really interesting episode with a woman
who had written a book aboutworld schoolers, and she talked
about the emotional curriculum,as a lot of homeschoolers and
world schoolers here talkedwith, more than asking or more
than answering about which kindof subjects they wanted their
(56:32):
kids to learn.
It was to me emotionalcurriculum they answered her
with.
And I like that.
So can you please, before wehang up, share where people can
find you?
Missy Willis (56:45):
Yes.
So Instagram is the best place.
That's where I spend the mostof my time, although it's been
very minimal in the last sixmonths or so.
But Instagram let them gobarefoot, and it's the L E T
Hypostrophe EM, go barefoot.
And then on there, there arelinks to other things to my
website and also to download ourebook and also to get to
(57:07):
Substack.
So that's the best location.
Jesper Conrad (57:10):
Perfect.
All right.
We will share it and also putit in the show notes.
Mizzy, thanks a lot for yourtime.
It was a pleasure talking withyou again.
And I look forward to hearingmore about the book.
Missy Willis (57:21):
Yeah, so good to see you.
Today we are together with the wonderful
Missy Willis, who we had thepleasure of talk with way back
in the start of our podcast.
Your project and your podcastletting go barefoot.
And I was like, oh, there'ssome people out there we have
talked with, I want to talk withagain, and you were among them.
So here we are.
Missy Willis (00:20):
Well, thank you.
Thank you so much for askingme.
I love talking to you.
Jesper Conrad (00:25):
Missy, so what have been going on in your life
since last time?
You're still doing your podcastfrom time to time and still
focused and focused onparenting.
Or where are you in your life?
Missy Willis (00:38):
So that was two years ago.
And at the time, my youngestwas still pretty fully immersed
in sort of homeschoolexperiences and activities.
She has since graduated, movedon to doing what we call dual
enrollment here, which is whereshe takes classes at the
(01:00):
community college.
So she can get high schoolcredit, college credit
simultaneously.
And my son, who he's 23 now, heis he finished getting his
personal trainer's license.
So he's moved on to doing thatand he's starting kind of
developing those skills.
And he's even moving towardsmore entrepreneurial type stuff
(01:22):
there while he's simultaneouslyin college.
So I'm telling you about thembecause their activities
directly impact my activities asthey have over the last, you
know, 20 years of us doing thishomeschooling thing.
And so I've just found lots ofprojects to get involved in.
We've moved.
We moved from our home of 21years and we downsized a little
bit and moved a little furtherout of the city into a smaller
(01:46):
town, different county, whichwas been great.
This was kind of on the backburner for a while.
Living in the city that we werein, the taxes just kept going
up, going up, going up.
And we were like, you know, andwe really wanted to update our
house, but then it was just costprohibitive at that point.
And we were like, maybe it'stime.
So we did.
It was a big deal.
I mean, for a while I resistedit because I loved our house and
(02:09):
that's where I raised mychildren.
So of course I see theirlittle, I just see them all over
the place, right?
But because they're older andthankfully they were able to
provide some comfort to me, evenlike mom, it's good.
We've we've loved this house.
We this house has served uswell and we're okay.
And to the point where my son,one day, when we were at our new
(02:30):
house, it was the firstChristmas last year, and we were
driving around doing stuff, andhe's like, So can we rate on a
scale of one to 10 how much weactually miss the other house?
And for him, it was like barelyanything.
And that was so surprising tome because I felt like as a mom,
I was protecting them byprotecting this house.
And yet it's it was it justmeant something different to me.
(02:51):
And that's something I think isso important to remember as
parents is that just because wefeel it a certain way, does that
mean that they will?
And and they're old enough,obviously, to have an opinion
and they were old enough to haveopinion as a kid, kids as well.
So yeah, my youngest was like,We'll never leave this house.
This is where I'm gonna liveafter you're gone.
When she was like nine yearsold.
(03:12):
But of course, by the time shegot to be, you know, 16, that
was a totally differentperspective.
So so we moved, that was a bigdeal, and then I have started
taking up tutoring again.
I'm working with kids in thecommunity.
I just really missed workingwith families and children
regularly.
And as in the homeschoolingworld, I had a lot of
opportunity to do that.
(03:32):
We got to run activities andlead classes and organize
events, and I'm just not neededin that capacity anymore with my
children.
So I was like, I'm bored.
I had to start findingsomething to do.
And then, you know, I write allthe time too.
So I've got another project I'mworking on with a longtime
friend that's another writingproject.
(03:53):
So that's that's how I'mkeeping busy.
Jesper Conrad (03:55):
Nice.
Can we talk about maybe itwasn't fearful for you, but I
will present it as the fear ofthe step, the time that comes
when you move from homeschoolingtowards day one to start in
college or university.
The whole have I done it goodenough?
(04:17):
Is it now all my fails will beseen?
I have ruined my children'slives.
How was you on that fear level?
If that's the truth.
Missy Willis (04:26):
No, that's a great question because you're right.
It is one of those momentswhere it's like, okay, it's sink
or swim, and whatever we'vedone up to this point, you know.
I think a lot of parents feelthat way, whether you, whether
kids go to school, publicschool, private school, or even
homeschooling, that there's justthis sense of like, did I give
them everything they needed?
Did I do all the things?
But I think because we wereable to, so my oldest sort of
(04:49):
projected this out.
He kind of planned things out.
We knew what was coming and wealso knew what was expected.
So we were able to sort ofbackfill.
So it was like, if you want todo this, you have to do ABC.
If you want to do this, youknow, so we knew kind of what
was needed.
And so he was able to do thevery specific classes andor the
studies that he needed in orderto achieve that next step.
(05:11):
Thankfully, because of thestate that we're in, our
homeschooling laws are reallyrelaxed and it's they give you
quite a bit of freedom tohomeschool as you see fit.
And you do have the ultimatesay in what you feel like your
child is capable of doing.
So it's not like we have togive them some sort of test that
(05:32):
says now you've passed highschool.
It's more what we feel likethey deserve as far as a
transcript looks like.
And because he was taking a lotof classes locally through
different programs that wereavailable, we were able just to
use those.
So it wasn't even really like Ihad to create anything.
It was more like, well, youtook that.
So we can, you know, that's onthe list.
And we took that.
(05:52):
So so there, there'sdefinitely, you know, things
that were done that he was ableto complete that gave him that
satisfaction and thatunderstanding and also gave me
that too.
But also being with them asmuch as I have been, I just know
what they're capable of, youknow, and I know what kind of I
just I just know that whenthey've set their mind to
something, they're gonna do it.
And I'm just a lot of times I'mjust set up, I'm just the
(06:14):
cheerleader.
I'm like, go, go, go, you know,this is what you want.
I'll do whatever I can tosupport you.
And if you need my help, let meknow.
But I will also kind of take aback seat.
I don't want to, I don't wantto try to drive anything.
So now my daughter's doing,like I said, she was nervous.
I will say that with one of theclasses, she was like, Oh, I
don't know, I don't know.
I'm like, take it step by step,you know, if you feel like you
(06:37):
need more deeper diving into aparticular topic or skills that
you need to develop, there's somany ways to go about it.
And they've decided to doeverything virtually too, which
was kind of surprising to me.
I expected them to want to goon site, but then again, they're
very practical people.
So they were like, why would Idrive 30 minutes to drive 30
minutes when I'm taking a45-minute class and I could just
(06:59):
stay in my room and then I'mdone?
Jesper Conrad (07:01):
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (07:02):
Well, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, it's funny actually howour story is just aligned right
now.
So you moved and we just movedtoday, and you did a big fish
and big move, and we did acasual nomadic one, and now
you're talking about thattransition, and and we're
actually in it as well, not withall of ours, because our
(07:24):
youngest is only 13, so he'sstill an actual homeschool
child, child, even.
It's I think it's a lot, it'sit's like high school and the
first year of college, kind of.
(07:45):
You need to have that educationin order to be accepted into
university.
It's really hard to get inwithout that.
So you need the formal papers,and they need to be you can't, I
can't just decide that they'renot if they want to do
university, and they do, so theysuddenly, not suddenly, they've
decided they wanted to douniversity, and now suddenly two
of them, actually, three ofthem, the oldest one as well.
(08:09):
So we have a 26-year-old, she'sdoing that university
preparation course, and so areour 19 and 17-year-olds, and
it's just such a huge change.
It's such a huge change.
I and it happened.
I've been working to make ithappen, helping them to find a
(08:31):
way to get in after beinghomeschooled, as homeschooling
is not normal, or you know,there's just no process for it
in our country because no onereally does it.
We knew we wanted this, andthen suddenly we made it.
Suddenly there was like thisloophole, or this, you know, we
just suddenly there was a crackin all the walls we usually have
(08:51):
been uh banging into trying toget in.
So now suddenly they'restudying, and they're studying
for exams, and we have examdates, and we have curriculum,
and we have the pressure, and wehave to you know plan out
things, sit three hours a day,and it's come we you know, I'm
(09:12):
ordering school books on Amazon.
Jesper Conrad (09:14):
It's just it.
Cecilie Conrad (09:16):
I mean, I was a whole an unschooler two months
ago, and I'm still anunschooler, I think, but you
know you know, that's just justreally strange.
Jesper Conrad (09:26):
I I think it's really interesting to see a
brain that has been focused onlearning and doing exactly what
it wanted, saying to ourdaughter saying to herself,
okay, so I need to understandthis math here to get in.
I've never been interested init.
(09:47):
And now she has three months toread up the whole curriculum
from uh nine years, and she'slike, Okay, if that's what it
takes, I will do it.
And seeing her brain go intothat year is interesting, but
it's also interesting to seethis, it's a different kind of
tired you get, and also thebrain also gets fulfilled in
(10:10):
another way.
There's something about maththat is interesting for the
brain to puzzle with and workwith, and there's an another
part of the brain that isinteresting to work with when
you work with animals.
It's just like differentmuscles that need to be trained.
I find it interesting to seethem go like all of a sudden,
okay, now now I'm done.
(10:31):
Now, and then the brain justneeds to relax for some hours.
Yeah.
Missy Willis (10:36):
Yeah, I I've for sure seen what I believe to be
the direct result of being ableto follow your interest, learn
at a pace that makes sense foryou, without comparing yourself
constantly to 20 plus otherkids.
There's a sense ofunderstanding about themselves
(10:58):
that maybe they would havegotten if they were in the
public school or traditionalschool setting, but it just
feels like there's a lot of lessextra stuff to work through.
And then they just understandwhat they need to do.
And then they also don't havethat burnout.
So the fact that they didn'thave to do the K through 12
curriculum, be up every day forsomebody else's schedule and not
(11:19):
be able to rest when theywanted to, and all those things.
Their desire to do theseclasses and to do this
coursework is so much moreexciting.
You know, they're just like,let's do this, you know, I'm
ready.
So it's like their brain is somuch more open to and ready for.
And they also see the point ofit.
You know, it's not like just doit because it's more like I'm
(11:40):
doing it because.
So they have a reason for doingclasses to get to the next
step.
And the reality is we do have asystem set up across, you know,
many countries where it's like,in order to do B, you have to
do A, ensure there's ways tocircumvent those sorts of
things.
And, you know, so I wasn't sureif my son was going to pursue
the four-year degree.
(12:00):
And and my whole thing from thevery beginning is always choose
what makes sense for you andyou're able to pivot and modify
when needed, you know.
And I think we put such atimeline on everything, you
know, it's like by 18, you haveto do this, and by 20, you have
to do this.
And I just I pulled it back andit's like, let's just slow it
down a little bit.
And and some people may arguethat it is good for kids in
(12:23):
order to be within their sort ofpeer groups around the same
doing kind of the same things.
But I kind of pushed back onthat a little bit because I'm
like, but I don't want the peergroup to be the driving force.
I want their internal being thedriving force, you know.
So now that he's pursuing afour-year degree, he's
technically, you know, a year orso behind his same-age peers.
(12:46):
But in my mind, he's verycomfortable because he's built
all these different skills thathe knows what works for him and
what doesn't, what lights him upand what doesn't.
And he's also saved money, youknow.
I mean, he was investing at 17.
And so this like it'sfascinating to me because I'm
like, I wish somebody, I wish Iwould have known to do that at
(13:08):
17, or somebody would have beenlike, hey, take your money and
put it in something.
Because, you know, now he's gotthis understanding of finances
in a way that I did not have atthat age.
And he is just very solid inkind of the direction he wants
to go.
And I really appreciate thatfor him.
Jesper Conrad (13:24):
Yeah, Missy, I have a question, which is I
can't remember how homeschooled,unschooled in a curriculum you
your version of homeschoolingwas.
And actually, very latecompared to how you see it being
(13:50):
pushed into school's flow ofwhat they need to learn when.
It is like something happensaround 14, 15, 16, that when
puberty hit, and after the wholehormone bump had been thrown
and like they're settling down,then it's like their brain wakes
up in a new way.
Missy Willis (14:10):
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well, I I for sure saw that.
It was a very clear, like Ialmost noticed it in
photographs, even just howthey're it's almost like their
faces changed, you know.
They're just the way theypresent themselves, the way they
they look.
It it's sort of like from oneyear to the next, you can see
this.
And so my son was about 15 whenhe was like, I'm ready for
(14:32):
something a little bit more.
And my daughter was probablyabout 16.
And she and and she's alwaysbeen very creative.
So she was always drawing,drawing, drawing.
But it it is, it's it's justclear that they want something
different and a little bit more.
And I think you're right.
I think there is somethingabout the brain at that age
(14:53):
where they're just like tryingto like all this experiences
they've had up to that point,now they're trying to level it
up a little bit and trying toapply it all.
Jesper Conrad (15:04):
When I look at it and I look at how we're doing
schools, then I get verygrateful for the rest that we're
able to give our preteens orpre-pupesant teenagers that they
have time to be children.
Yes.
And then the whole hormone bumpis thrown into the mix and they
(15:26):
go into puberty, and it is wildyears for some of them.
There's a lot of emotions andnew things happening in the body
that they need to take uh tofigure out.
And when they land after that,then it's like the brain is
hungry after something, and thatmakes me very grateful to
(15:48):
homeschool.
But I can also see that if youhave a child in school and they
need to live through thisperiod, and with all the social
life and peer orientation thatgoes on in the schools, then
there's not a lot of time forthe actual brain work that would
need to be done in those two orthree years, where if you don't
(16:10):
have a schedule, you're nottogether with 28 other people
most of the day, then you canactually do math mathematics
like our daughter does now threeor four hours a day.
She started like shown inbecause she really wanted to
understand it.
And for our son, it was otherthings he went into, and I can
(16:32):
see now our youngest he is onthe not the height of puberty
hitting, but it is hitting.
It has been difficult for him,and now he is slowly landing,
and the landing will take longertime because he it is just uh
physic uh physical.
(16:53):
He it will take time, he willgrow and everything.
But I can already see the lotuh the desire to do and change
and have aspirations for whatyou want to do in life is
coming.
This front shift from being achild to be a young adult.
It's interesting to see.
Missy Willis (17:14):
Yeah, it's really amazing.
And it's um, and it's exactlylike you were saying, that the
the time that they have in orderto really go through those
changes and transition is, Ithink, one of the biggest
travity travesties of our ourexperience here is that we've
taken their time, we've stolentheir time.
(17:35):
And it's you know, I've it'sthere, I'll see, because I used
to teach, I was trained as ateacher and have friends who
were trained as teachers and wewould share stories.
And, you know, one of myfriends, she started
homeschooling before I did andintroduced me to home schooling.
And uh, you know, one of thethings that she had said was, I
just feel like that we've we'vestolen children's full potential
(17:58):
because we've told them whatthey should do and and we've
told them what they should dowith their time.
And then I think when we we'vetaken the time like we have,
we've also taken their theflexibility that they have to
pursue different interests.
And I I mean, I think you know,we we all have influences in
(18:21):
our lives, depending on where welive, our family, you know, our
cultures.
And I think that thoseinfluences are never gonna go
anywhere.
But there's that internal, Ijust keep going back to that
internal clock or internal voicethat really got to be ignited
during the younger years, andand then they got to be really
(18:45):
true to themselves through theirteenage years in a way that
might have been trickier if theywere immersed in the thousand
children school in our in ourcity.
So I'm I'm very happy for that.
I know my son, and this is theother piece of it, and maybe you
guys have experienced this too,since you have older children,
but he's been able to like seethe world from different
(19:07):
perspectives with all thedifferent people he's interacted
with.
And he's told me thank youseveral times.
And he's just so grateful.
And I'm like, oh, that likemakes me teary thinking about it
because you go through thosephases as a mom, as a parent in
general, where you're wondering,Am I doing it wrong?
Did I did I did I make a badmistake?
Should I have should I've putthem in school?
(19:27):
Did I steal these opportunitiesfrom them by making this
decision?
And and I will say we made itas a family.
Like, I mean, sure, I instalike I started it, and every
year we sort of re-evaluated,and then we were like, Are we
happy with what we're doing?
Do we want to keep going?
And the kids were like, Yes,and then we would reevaluate
again.
And there was at one point,well, one of them really did
(19:49):
think that maybe school would befun, but then the realization
was you have to be up at thistime and you don't get to come
home when you want to, and youhave to stay until this time,
and then it was like, nevermind.
Jesper Conrad (20:00):
So yeah, I have this thought, which is and it
has happened inside the lastcouple of years, and it has been
more profound since I turned 50last winter, and it is I
actually in some ways feel notwiser, but that I come back to
(20:27):
some of the clean-spiritedvalues I had when I was a teen.
I remember being very strong onsome opinions about how to
treat animals and you shouldn'tlitter, and a lot of stuff
around when I was 11, 12, 13,14.
And then it went down therabbit hole of being a young boy
(20:51):
partying and having a lot offun.
And and I took my values andpushed them aside.
And I don't know if it's theage thing or just me maturing uh
slow or whatever, but afterI've turned 50, I'm like, I I
see that I'm in some sense morethe boy that I was before I got
(21:15):
my values skewed by young adultparty and trying to be like
everyone else's lives.
How do you feel about growingolder?
Missy Willis (21:24):
I turned 50 three years ago, and it was one of
those where it's you know, youhear the number and it sounds
older than it is.
So for me, it was like, okay,50 is just a number, you know,
age is all in your mind.
Thankfully, and I I use this asmy my guide, my grandmother
lived to be 100 years old.
She died in 2019, and she wasactually doing really well up
(21:49):
until like three weeks, fourweeks before she passed.
We had our 100th birthday partyand she died a month later.
So it was just like downhillquick.
But anyway, all that to say Ithink of her and I'm like, you
know, she used to always say shewas gonna live to 100.
So it's like she put it in herown mind and that sort of mind
ever matter thing, you know,with like, oh, you're aging.
It's like, no, just put putyour mind to whatever, whatever
(22:10):
it is you want to do.
But I will say, the this timefor me is such a reflection, a
reflecting time because of thefact that my kids are older.
And I've always kind of been ain my head sort of person.
I've spent like I always jokeand say I'm never alone because
I don't get bored really easilyat all.
(22:31):
I can just sit here and thinkabout stuff and plan and
organize and consider and youknow, run through philosophy and
all things.
But I I appreciate the factthat I can age, I feel,
gracefully at this point inlife.
And, you know, I I don't feellike I have very many regrets in
(22:51):
the choices that I made withwhat we did as a family.
There's a lot of pressure inour society, I think, for women
to have it all.
And and that means for somepeople, full-time career,
full-time family.
And to me, I just see that as arecipe for burnout because I
just feel like you can't giveyour all to everything.
And so you have to make somechoices and sacrifices here and
(23:14):
there.
But what's been interesting,and I've talked to several
homeschool moms actually who areat this age range, it's like
they spent their earlier yearsraising their families, and now
they're spending their olderyears kind of doing work that
they love.
So it's almost like a backwardsrecipe than what's a lot of
other people have done, wherethey spent their earlier years
(23:36):
being in career, and now theirchildren are grown and moved,
and now they're taking a stepback from their career.
So, you know, there's obviouslychoices, everybody makes the
decisions that work for them.
But for me at this point, it'sbeen just really nice to have
the flexibility to do work thatI love and I care about, and
that I also get to see mychildren kind of launching and
(23:59):
doing what makes them happy.
Jesper Conrad (24:02):
I like it.
Cecilie Conrad (24:03):
Can I circle back to I was just thinking
about when you said you said twothings about how your kids are
choosing to do their educationonline instead of showing up in
some building?
And then you said somethingabout peers and same-age peers
(24:24):
and learning with them.
I was just thinking, actually,it's fun when you're 17 to be
around other teenagers.
It's not an mom is not enough,you know, and and aunts and
uncles and neighbors.
It's nice to have a group ofother young people between
whatever, 10 and 20, 25, even.
(24:46):
Doesn't have to be the sameage, but younger people between
childhood and family life, let'ssay.
Maybe even before university,before mid-20s.
I see that they need that, orthey do enjoy it a lot,
especially if it's a big group,there's someone to pick from so
you can find your favorites.
(25:07):
I see that, but I do not seethat they would need to learn
with them.
So if they put their mind onlearning a new language, or we
have one who's diving into mathright now, or whatever it is, I
do not see that they need thelearning to happen in that
(25:28):
context.
And I think there's just somuch of this school-based
mindset where we mix that up.
Even recently, I spoke to awoman who has one child out of
school, two in school, and oneis one of the two in school is
on her way out of school, andshe said, but then she was in
(25:50):
school, and I picked her up, andshe actually wanted to stay
because she was playing with herfriends, and and she didn't
want to go home.
So now I have this doubt.
Maybe I should keep her inschool.
And I'm thinking, well, youwere trying to pick her up while
she was playing with herfriends, it was the playing that
was fun, not the school part.
(26:11):
When the kids say they loveschool, what they do love is
usually mostly their friends.
They love spending time withtheir friends outside of school
or on social media platforms,they text each other during the
class.
It's not about learningtogether.
A lot, especially young people.
I mean, they if you need to sitdown and learn something, it's
(26:35):
like I don't like to walkthrough a museum with my friends
unless they are as interestedas I am.
Because I want to chat with myfriends.
I enjoy sitting at a cafe withmy friend or go on a random walk
on the beach with a friend.
But if I'm there to learnsomething or to take in specific
artists, something like that, Iactually'd rather, well, I like
to do it with my kids, butotherwise I'd rather be alone.
(26:58):
Don't distract me.
So it's this just this confusedidea, I think.
And even with now your kids aredoing, I don't know, higher
education.
It's not basic schooling.
They choose to do somethingthat's more, I don't know,
academic of some sort.
Do they need to do it aroundother kids?
(27:18):
I don't think so.
Missy Willis (27:20):
I don't I agree with you.
I think it's a distraction fora lot of children, you know, and
I think it's kind of this onesize fits all.
Like everybody come into aroom, we're gonna tell you
information, and then you'regonna take it in and study it.
So they have to take it bythemselves home and study it
generally anyway, unless theychoose to work together in small
groups.
But, you know, I think that'sso important to highlight
(27:44):
because it does take time totake in new information and to
study it and repeat it in a waythat works for you.
And you're absolutely rightthat all the times that I've
talked to kids over the years,it's like we joke about the one
of the neighbors that we grew upwith or that my children grew
up with, and he'd come home fromschool, we're like, What'd you
do at school today?
What was your favorite part?
Lunch and recess.
Cecilie Conrad (28:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Missy Willis (28:08):
Walking there and walking back as well.
Yeah, walking home, seeing so,and we we spent a lot of time
like cultivating the communityaspect of of our homeschool
experience.
And my children had, you know,friends that they did sports
with and friends that they didoutings with, and you know, it
was kind of if they justdeveloped that over time.
(28:31):
So that you're right.
I mean, they would spend daylike hours together, you know,
playing or exploring or beingtogether, playing sports,
whatever.
And then when they were readyto be, you know, needed to sit
still or read a book orwhatever, they would come home
and do that.
Jesper Conrad (28:47):
About cultivating community.
Before we started recording,you asked about the world school
village, which we had justfinished.
The whole goal of that is tocultivate community, create a
village for people who traveleither full-time or want to step
into it, or just want toimmerse themselves in social
(29:09):
life for a month.
We just finished it three daysago.
My brain is still slowly tryingto figure out what I've learned
from it.
Uh, but to explain the idea,then it was pretty simple.
It has grew out, grown out ofother things we have dipped our
toes in, where we have been onsome world school pub up hubs
(29:31):
that was a week where a lot oftraveling families met in the
same city for a week, and therewas an itinerary, and people
were there, and a lot of greatfriendship created.
But we just thought it was alittle stressful with just one
week, and our kids they reallywanted to spend longer time
together with these people.
So we decided to take a citythat showed to be even more
(29:57):
fantastic than we could havedreamt of, dreamt of.
Aragona in Spain.
It's an old Roman city.
It was one of the headquartersof the Roman Empire.
So much history, so muchbeauty.
And it's right next to a beach,and it's still hot here in this
period.
And it's in Catalonia wherethey are still keeping their
(30:19):
local culture alive because theyspeak another language than the
rest of Spain.
So it has just been likeoverwhelming.
But basically, they we ended upinviting a lot of people, 35 or
40 families signed up, andprimarily families with teens.
So we have had, I think, 70teens together during this
(30:43):
month.
And it has been a lot of fun, alot of talking, a lot of late
nights, because apparently.
You know what, Missy, I heardmyself almost in the voice of my
mom say, Yeah, is it reallymore fun after 12?
Yes, it is.
Missy Willis (31:02):
Oh my god, yes, but he was such an old man.
Oh, yeah.
You hear that old voice comeout.
Cecilie Conrad (31:06):
You're like, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait a minute.
Yes, it is actually more funafter midnight.
Jesper Conrad (31:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (31:13):
Okay, you asked the question, you got the
answer.
Yes, it is more fun at three inthe morning.
Jesper Conrad (31:18):
But it it has been really good and we have
enjoyed it a lot, and now we areslowing down with just taking a
month where we're only four orfive families, so still a lot of
social life.
But I think that it issomething we have wanted in our
life.
Also, when we look back at whenwe were stationary, then we use
(31:39):
a lot of time and energy ondriving to our people.
Because when you live, you buya house on a street, maybe your
next door neighbors are not yourpeople.
You can be polite and eat atdinner, but if they're not your
people, they're not your people.
So we we ended up with like alot of logistics in Copenhagen.
Cecilie Conrad (32:01):
But that is also due to the fact that home
education is very rare.
Jesper Conrad (32:06):
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (32:07):
Where we come to have to drive.
But we say long distances.
We're speaking to an American.
Jesper Conrad (32:13):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (32:14):
Nothing is okay in Denmark.
Missy Willis (32:16):
Our country is like your backyard.
Well, and I was gonna say, whenyou say long distance to you,
like what does that mean?
Is that like you know, fivemiles or not even an hour.
What is that?
Cecilie Conrad (32:27):
Less than an hour.
Most of my friends lived withinan hour, and I could even bike
to most of them within an hour.
It wasn't that bad.
Jesper Conrad (32:34):
No, no, no.
Cecilie Conrad (32:35):
But it was chasing friends.
That was, but I think for mosthomeschoolers, actually, that's
the main thing, right?
The main problem is where arethe other people?
Because most of the otherpeople are in the mainstream
life, and we're just living adifferent life.
Jesper Conrad (32:50):
Yeah, and it made me think about my own process
of going from that that went towork to dad that stays at home,
which is I realized that part ofmy social battery is filled and
was filled by going to work,talking with Collee.
(33:11):
But the fun thing then is itmaybe wasn't filled my social
battery with the qualitydialogues I really wanted,
because I'm not a big fan offootball or news or anything
like that.
So a lot of the chats I hadwith people at the office were
for me a little uninteresting.
(33:31):
So now I get to choose them,but I also recognize that when
you are at home, and it must beI've never been a stay-at-home
mom, there is this how do youfill your social battery?
How do you find those people?
Because the life has not thisbuilt-in pseudo social life that
(33:52):
work and school has.
What you do as a as ahomeschool mom to get the
dialogues, the talks you needed.
Missy Willis (34:02):
Well, so I feel like I could talk to anybody,
and I have so you know, onething that I've talked to a lot
of parents about is to ensurethey are understanding of their
needs.
Like you just said, what do youneed in terms of being
introverted, extroverted, orkind of in the middle, and then
pay attention to what yourchildren need because sometimes
they don't align, and mom mighthave to go out of the kids to
(34:26):
get what she needs if she's muchmore social, etc.
So I really was thankfully thefriends that my children made
over time ended up being parentsthat I became friends with.
So that was hugely important.
And so that while the kidsplayed, the parents talked, you
(34:46):
know, and sometimes we wouldlike have play cards or, you
know, have tea together or justsit and dream up ideas.
And one of my friends wasreally into creative stuff, and
so she and I coordinated ayearbook for our co-op.
So we took photos of the kidsand then we turned it into a
photo album for the families topurchase at the end of the year
(35:09):
so that we made sure we hadrepresentation of everyone and
all of our activities.
So I've always found somethingto keep my mind busy and
interested in and connected withpeople, a lot of times through
my children.
So that just worked out thatway.
It wasn't intentional, wasn'tplanned out like, oh, I'll be
friends with this person, thatperson.
It was more just a naturaldevelopment of friendship that
(35:30):
happened over time.
And then, of course, with theco-ops that we were involved in.
Do you all did y'all do co-opsor have that?
Cecilie Conrad (35:37):
Probably not, because you were saying it's way
too small where we come from.
I mean, we will talk about it alittle bit.
I think also so now it's sevenand a half years since we left
Denmark starting the full-timenomadic life.
So actually, I wouldn't be ableto say how exactly.
I think they do co-ops now.
(35:58):
Yeah, they do something likethat.
But back when we were homeeducating and living stationary
in Copenhagen, there were veryfew families doing it.
It was a very powerfulcommunity of families.
We were very close.
We were all free thinkers in away.
We were we were allout-of-the-box thinkers, and we
(36:21):
all had this power, this coreidea that we I want to do it the
things my way.
I'm not doing things becauseother people do it this way or
because that's how it's alwaysbeen done.
But it wasn't the same choicepeople made.
We were all very different, butwe had a lot of respect for
those differences, and we gottogether to be social.
(36:44):
It was always just to be socialbecause all the other stuff we
could do on our own.
So we didn't do co-ops becausepeople did not want that kind of
structured cooperation of homeeducating life because we were
so we're such a bunch ofanarchists, basically.
(37:05):
No one wanted any rules to beset for them of any sort or any
pre-booking of their calendars,or was so fun.
We had a union for homeeducators in Denmark.
We were like five people on theboard, and we were all actually
anarchists, and it was justthis, you know, how do we even
set up a meeting?
(37:26):
How do we agree on how to talkabout things?
Because none of us are going tocomply to any rules, not even
rules we ourselves decidecreated, yeah.
We're going to break them.
It was right.
Well, we had a lot of fun doingit.
So that was the vibe 10 yearsago when we were part of it, and
(37:46):
I think that has changed a lot.
Jesper Conrad (37:50):
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (37:51):
So we're not, we can't even say how it looks
now.
I all I can say is what fromwhat from hearsay, it's
different now.
Jesper Conrad (38:00):
It is a growing community, which is wonderful.
Cecilie Conrad (38:03):
Way bigger community, but it's also a
community where a lot of peoplein the movement are thinking
doing homeschooling because theythink the school is not doing
its job well enough, and they'rebasically just trying to do the
school's job better at home.
Missy Willis (38:18):
So it's not like so they're doing more academic
stuff, it's very academic-heavy.
Cecilie Conrad (38:23):
Yeah, and with the same kind of structure that
the parents decide there's acurriculum, there's this struct
play dates, and you know, thewhole if you're in a co-op, you
have to show up every time.
If you don't, you'll be kickedout.
It's completely like astructure of the backbone of a
school situation.
And I'm sounding veryjudgmental.
Maybe I even am judgmental, butactually, I think homeschooling
(38:47):
is very often a better choicethan not homeschooling anyway.
So, and and if they do whatmakes them happy, then they
should totally do it.
I just think it's a little bitsad when you're stepping out of
a system only to copy it.
Yeah, maybe just take thatmoment of stepping out to think
about how do I want to structurethis or do I want to structure
(39:11):
it at all?
Missy Willis (39:12):
So I mean sometimes those people
eventually get there becausethey realize you can't run that
sort of a system in your homewith multiple age kids when
you're just one person, youknow.
I think the overwhelmeventually causes them to like
sit and think about how theywant to restructure stuff.
I mean, I had two kids, andthere were times where I was
like, How am I supposed to getyour needs met and your needs
(39:35):
met when y'all both want me atthe same time?
So yeah, I can only imaginewhat it'd be like.
Cecilie Conrad (39:39):
It's actually been the main thing for me and
still is to this day where theyoungest is almost 14.
Stretching myself in so manydifferent directions, and now
even being nomadic.
Now we have that layer on top.
It's not just the question ofsomeone needs silence, another
(40:00):
one wants to listen to a podcastand do watercolor, a third one
wants to discuss something.
That's very often the problemof the homeschooling mom that
you just have to be fivedifferent people at the same
time.
And yes, she can't.
Missy Willis (40:14):
Yes, especially when they have different
activities and things to do.
And I joked and said thathomeschooling was literally
making food for everybodybecause breakfast, you woke up
and now you want breakfast.
You woke up and now you wantbreakfast, and then I'm getting
ready to start something, andthen the other one's like, hey,
when's lunch?
And you're just like, ah, justforget it.
We're not doing what I had setout to do.
But yeah, it you're I think isa great point to bring up
(40:36):
because some people doromanticize it to the point of
like just bring them home andeverything will work out.
And I'm like, you gottaremember you need support, like
psychological support, but alsoliteral physical support in
order to make sure you haveenough hands for everybody.
Jesper Conrad (40:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (40:53):
We need the village, and actually, good
hack, teach them to makebreakfast themselves, at least
one because they wake up at somany different times.
And for my kids, also, they allwell, that's a lie.
One of them is that veryefficient, but the rest of them,
they have such elaboratebreakfasts in very different
(41:15):
directions, they're making verydifferent meals for breakfast,
but it's all it's not justcornflakes milk, end of story.
It's like a half-hour project,and not the same.
It's not like, oh, could youdouble today and make for me as
well?
Because they don't want thesame thing.
And I had a meltdown, Iremember, maybe six or seven
(41:37):
years ago.
I was like, shit, I just can'tkeep supporting this, it's
thriving me insane.
I'm spending two and a halfhours every morning supporting
your breakfast project.
It's like a wedding meal.
I mean, can we just have cornflakes or can you do it
yourself?
So I started actually doing mymorning runs.
(41:57):
And the deal was that was whenwe lived in a bus.
So that was a very, very smallspace we were all sharing.
And I told them, I'm going fora run, and when I come back,
you're all done eating.
I just don't want to be part ofthis.
I'm leaving mom's out.
Jesper Conrad (42:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (42:14):
That works, it's a good happy just leave, let
them figure it out themselves,the morning thing at least.
Jesper Conrad (42:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And also eating together, it'ssuch a good time.
Cecilie Conrad (42:23):
It's great to share meals, but maybe cooking
all day long.
Jesper Conrad (42:28):
It's not this easy.
Missy Willis (42:29):
When we ran into that, my husband ended up
working from home and heactually loved to cook, which
was wonderful because he wasreally into doing the dinner
meals, but he liked to tinker.
So his meals took a long timebecause he would do this and
then he would start to grill,and then and then and I was so
used to efficiency.
Like we eat, we get up, we dosomething, we eat, get up, do
(42:50):
something.
So, but I always joked andsaid, Well, I'll take breakfast,
lunch, snacks, and shopping,and you take dinner, and then I
could just be done.
So that was great for mebecause I was able to just do
whatever I needed to do with thekids or run off on my own or or
whatever.
So I knew meals were taken careof.
But you really do have to thinkabout all those things, and
it's not, it doesn't justhappen.
(43:11):
Like somebody has to take thelead or at least bring everybody
to the table to have aconversation about it because
you're right.
Otherwise, you're just neverdoing anything, but cooking and
cleaning.
Cecilie Conrad (43:22):
Cooking cleaning, and actually on that
note, take everyone to the tableand talk about it.
That's another experience I'vehad having more than one child.
We have a fairly big familynow.
We also both of our daughtershave boyfriends, so sometimes we
have that in the matrix thatwe're yeah, it's like an ebb and
flow size family.
(43:43):
But sometimes we're a lot ofpeople, and you think you can
sit everyone down and then youcan discuss let's say the plan
of the week.
So when are we going to themuseum?
When are we seeing thecathedral?
When are we doing the big shop?
Can we coordinate a cleanup?
Something like that.
But actually, that whole familymeeting situation never worked
for us.
I don't think we've had onesit-down family meeting, all
(44:06):
five of us, six, seven, eight ofus, to have a good conversation
that ended up with actualdecisions.
What happens in our families, Ihave to do one by one, talk to
them about the options, talk tothem about their needs, because
they don't all speak up.
Some of them just want themeeting over and done with, and
(44:26):
then you're like, whatever, I'mout.
But then when the actual thinghappens, and that can even be
the adults.
Oh, I didn't sign up for this,you know.
Jesper Conrad (44:34):
No, but the underlying thing is also that
sometimes one of them can wantto be polite to and say, Oh,
yeah, that's a good idea.
And then when they think aboutit, sometimes some people
process fast, from some peopleprocess with their feelings and
take more time.
The the good or bad, it's fine.
Cecilie Conrad (44:52):
I'm just I think it's another misunderstanding
that's out there for somefamilies, it just works.
They can just sit down, there'sa good list of things they have
to decide on, they get it alldone, everyone's discussing, and
it takes maybe an hour, and allthe decisions are made for the
week, and it's great, or for thewhatever decision that for our
(45:13):
family, and that never worked.
But the way everyone gets thevote and the voice is that
basically I have a conversationwith everyone about whatever's
up, and then at the end of theday, I make the decisions.
Okay, then we do it this way,and everyone's been heard.
Missy Willis (45:30):
And I think it that is that way, because from
what it sounds like, you I mean,you do have those conversations
with your kids, you know,you're open to hearing their
opinion about things, and you'renot just gonna say, all right,
everybody has to make adecision, it's a democracy where
you get a one person, one vote,you know, who the highest vote
wins.
But and so, again, I mean, evenjust with two kids, we ran into
that.
It was like, how do peoplethink we can educate 25 kids in
(45:54):
a classroom when I can't getfour people to agree on dinner?
Yes, you know, you it's justnot a sensible system.
Jesper Conrad (46:02):
So Missy, you mentioned that you are in the
process of or starting up a newwriting project.
What is it you want to explore?
What is it that you're lookinginto, and how far ahead are you?
Missy Willis (46:21):
So this project came about from a friend of
mine.
I met her before children, andI worked, I don't know if we
talked about this last time ornot, but so I ended up working
one of my first jobs out ofcollege was at the Duke
University Medical Center ADHDstudy.
So they had a multi, multi-sitestudy that was sponsored by the
(46:45):
National Institute of MentalHealth.
And I had a psychology degree,and my psychology professor, who
was my advisor, found out aboutthis job and got me connected.
And so I was one of theresearch assistants and
behavioral people that was hiredto help the study go go forth.
And so I met her, and thatstudy opened my eyes to the
(47:07):
world of pharmacology andpsychology and psychiatry and so
many things and familydynamics, and it really kind of
impressed upon me how importantit is for the family unit to be
able to communicate well withone another and how often
families lose sort of control oftheir lives because of the
(47:29):
different ways their childrenare in the community, whether
it's through the medical systemor social services or the
schooling system.
And it helped me kind of, Iguess, narrow down my drive to
understand the family systembetter.
So, anyway, all that to say,she and I reconnected recently
(47:51):
and she ended up going thebehavioral consultant route in
the public school system andhelped develop programs for
children with autism in theschools where she lived.
And then, of course, I went thehomeschool route.
So we thought it would betogether.
We thought it would be fun tocome together and create sort of
a guide in a similar vein thatwe did that I did the guide with
(48:13):
Ann, but for children who areuniquely wired.
And by that, we are saying kidswho have been diagnosed and or
are in the system or who aren'tdiagnosed, but who tend to march
to the beat of their own drum.
And by that we mean they don'tnecessarily learn the way that
the standard school model wantsthem to, but they haven't been
(48:34):
diagnosed either, and or theparents don't want them to be.
So we're trying to put togetherjust some really supportive
pieces of information based onresearch, based on our own
experiences of how to supporttheir children and also to give
them the language to speak inthose different settings.
Because I mean, let's face it,if you're if you haven't studied
(48:57):
that world and you have a childthat all of a sudden becomes
diagnosed with ADHD or learningdisability and they're in the
school system, it'soverwhelming.
You know, it's a lot to takein.
Some parents just feel reallylost.
And so our goal is to try tohelp parents in that setting and
out of that situation, have thehave the tools and the and the
(49:19):
language, and to also from myperspective and my input is to
see learning differently thanwhat the school system says, and
also that homeschooling is anoption.
So I'm sort of the homeschoolself-directed, you know, look at
the bigger picture voice.
And she's kind of the here'sthe system that I've been in,
(49:39):
and here's what we have seenworked.
And so it's it's a it's gonna,it's challenging, I will tell
you.
I've been I've been a bitchallenged on it because not
that it's not that I can't doit, it's more that some of the
stuff, it's hard because workingwith the kids that I've worked
with recently, they're kids whogo to private school or public
school, but they've been testedand or diagnosed recently with
(50:02):
like a learning disability ordyslexia.
And while all of that, youknow, I believe is is reality
for some children, it's theexpectation for them to keep up
with everybody in that classroomsetting that I feel like is
just so hard because if theycould just be in a different
setting, then those issues wouldprobably not be as pronounced.
Jesper Conrad (50:25):
But it sounds like you're working on a book
that also can help the parentsto get a language that they can
use when in dialogue with theauthorities, because when you
don't have a language about it,then there is the risk that you
just lay down flat and say, Yes,give give me the drugs, and I
(50:48):
will put my kid in school, andthey will just try to keep up
with that level they need to beon, uh, according to this.
Where uh to open the door forthem and say, Yes, there are
other opportunities.
Missy Willis (51:02):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah, yeah.
So we're hoping to get thatdone and be ready in 2026, kind
of the beginning of the year.
That's our goal.
Jesper Conrad (51:11):
Oh, that's soon.
That's soon, yeah.
Missy Willis (51:14):
That's yeah, we've been working on it for several
months now, and we're we'rekeeping it we're as as we did
with the other one.
It's I want to keep itmanageable because there are so
many books available, right?
I mean, parents can get online,they can watch things on
YouTube.
I mean, there's amazingresources available.
But what we found is that it'sso overwhelming.
(51:36):
And so we're trying to justreally just very nuts and bolts
it, but also give them templatesand actual checklists and
things that they can utilize.
They could just print it outand take it to a meeting with a
with a you know teacher oradministrator or even their
doctor and and have things thatare available that aren't that
don't require hours and hoursand hours of research on their
(51:57):
part.
Because a lot of times, as youknow, I mean, you get busy as a
family, it's hard to do that.
And then if you have a childwho has a lot of um additional
things to take intoconsideration, especially if
they're in the system, you know,it can it can get overwhelming
quick.
Jesper Conrad (52:12):
Oh yes.
Cecilie Conrad (52:14):
Yeah, and then maybe you don't act, I mean you
have you have the the real lifejust reality of cooking the
meals and talking to the kidsand holding the laundry and
whatever, doing your jobs ofvarious sorts, reading piles of
books about a new problem yourpet family apparently has.
It's not necessarily doable.
Jesper Conrad (52:36):
If people want to get to know when the book is
coming out, can they sign up toyour newsletter?
Where will they find you ifthey want to know more about
what's coming?
Missy Willis (52:49):
Yeah, so I haven't really even shared any of this
on my social media yet on LetThem Go Barefoot because wanting
to get a little further alongwith it, but I will be sharing
it soon.
And I do have a Substacknewsletter, which you can find a
link to that on my Instagrampage on Let Them Go Barefoot.
So that's where I'll be sharinginformation and I'll send it in
(53:09):
a Substack newsletter and I'llalso just share information and
I'll start sharing the pageitself.
So who I'm working with, shestarted her own that she started
an Instagram page for thisproject.
And so we're just kind ofstarting all of that and getting
it kind of ready to go.
So I'll start pushing it out alittle closer to the time of us
of being ready for uh for it tobe in the world.
(53:30):
But thank you for asking.
Cecilie Conrad (53:33):
Well, we could talk again in about, I don't
know, six months.
Well, yeah, yeah, wait a minutefor a while and then tell me
how it went.
Yeah.
Missy Willis (53:41):
I know I am looking forward to it.
It's it's definitely it's it'sit's stretching me.
Like I said, I mean, I'm havingto dive back into things that I
hadn't really thought about ina while.
And uh and and also it's justreally interesting how it's kind
of come together given thatI've been working with kids now
who've been in the classroomsetting again and the things
that I'm seeing and stuff that'skind of you know been there
(54:01):
before in my mind, but now it'sbeing reinforced.
And so it's um it I think it'llbe timely, and I'm hoping
people will get something out ofit.
Jesper Conrad (54:11):
Absolutely.
And the challenging part of itis uh interesting because going
from, and it's a natural journeywhen you take and move yourself
away from the norm.
Sometimes you start by beingagainst the norm to find the
power in yourself to dare takingthe steps.
So, so I've been from I myjourney has been from being
(54:37):
that's weird, my dear wife.
Why do you want to homeschool?
That's some weird shit.
What's going on?
Cecilie Conrad (54:43):
The first word you said was completely crazy.
Jesper Conrad (54:46):
Yeah, something like that.
To let's burn the schools down,period.
Cecilie Conrad (54:51):
Now we're somewhere in between.
Jesper Conrad (54:52):
So now I'm like, I really want to change the
world.
I cannot open make a change forfor unschoolers.
It's parents, it's uh dads outthere.
We need to we need to geteveryone on board of taking more
control of their own life andmake the difference.
And a lot of people there, itis it is like plus 90% of people
(55:18):
have their kids in schools.
Yeah.
So of course, of course, weneed to be able to help them and
the ones who have children whodon't learn in the standardized
school way.
They need a helping hand to notbe burned out by the system.
Cecilie Conrad (55:37):
Okay, I feel like we're opening a new
conversation, but I just feellike saying everyone is learning
in the standardized schoolsystem.
It's devastating what some ofthem are learning.
Learning to be helpless, yeah,learning that they're hopeless,
learning that they have no powerover their lives.
I mean, it's horrible.
Jesper Conrad (55:58):
Yeah, the starting.
Missy Willis (55:59):
We call we call that the hidden curriculum.
Exactly.
Jesper Conrad (56:03):
Oh, that's oh wow.
I like that.
Missy Willis (56:06):
Yeah, yeah, it's called the hidden curriculum.
It's what's being taught that'snot being taught.
Jesper Conrad (56:11):
We had a really interesting episode with a woman
who had written a book aboutworld schoolers, and she talked
about the emotional curriculum,as a lot of homeschoolers and
world schoolers here talkedwith, more than asking or more
than answering about which kindof subjects they wanted their
(56:32):
kids to learn.
It was to me emotionalcurriculum they answered her
with.
And I like that.
So can you please, before wehang up, share where people can
find you?
Missy Willis (56:45):
Yes.
So Instagram is the best place.
That's where I spend the mostof my time, although it's been
very minimal in the last sixmonths or so.
But Instagram let them gobarefoot, and it's the L E T
Hypostrophe EM, go barefoot.
And then on there, there arelinks to other things to my
website and also to download ourebook and also to get to
(57:07):
Substack.
So that's the best location.
Jesper Conrad (57:10):
Perfect.
All right.
We will share it and also putit in the show notes.
Mizzy, thanks a lot for yourtime.
It was a pleasure talking withyou again.
And I look forward to hearingmore about the book.
Missy Willis (57:21):
Yeah, so good to see you.
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