April 28, 2025 • 31 mins
In this insightful episode, Daniel Holmlund, founder of the Alternative Investing Club and a veteran AI expert, delves into how artificial intelligence is reshaping the landscape of senior housing investments.
From his extensive experience at Intel to leading innovative investment strategies, Daniel shares how tools like Retrieval-Augmented Generation (RAG) and agentic AI are streamlining due diligence processes, enhancing decision-making, and identifying lucrative opportunities in the senior housing market.
Whether you're an investor, developer, or operator, this conversation offers valuable perspectives on integrating AI into your investment approach.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Daniel Holmlund (00:07):
The largest part of AI is that it challenges
business people to rethink howthey do their day-to-day
activities, and working with AIis a mindset shift.
It's similar to what manybusiness people have experienced
in terms of being able todelegate work.
(00:29):
A lot of small businessentrepreneurs have difficulty,
at least at first, withdelegating work to other people,
hiring other people.
This might be more common withengineers, who like to do
everything themselves.
But the same sort of mind shiftchange also applies to AI.
Ai is literally changing everyindustry we have right now.
(00:53):
It's being talked about, youknow, from the largest
governments to the smallest ofstartups, and in every single
industry that's out there.
John Hauber (01:04):
Welcome to the Senior Housing Investors Podcast
.
If you are an owner operator,investor, developer or buyer of
senior housing, you've come tothe right place.
The best way to stay connectedwith us is to sign up for our
weekly newsletter athavenseniorinvestmentscom.
This podcast doesn't existwithout you, our community.
(01:26):
Thank you for listening andreach out to us anytime.
Kelsie Heermans (01:37):
Welcome back everyone.
I'm excited to introducetoday's host, john Hauber.
Joining him is Daniel Holmlund,founder of the Alternative
Investing Club, an AI expert andlongtime senior software
engineer.
You're in for a greatconversation on how emerging
tech is shaping the future.
Take it away, john.
John Hauber (01:59):
Thanks, Kelsey, Daniel.
Welcome to the show.
Daniel Holmlund (02:03):
It's a pleasure to be here, John.
John Hauber (02:05):
Absolutely.
It's good to have you, and soyou know we're going to jump
right in and tell us a littlebit about your background and
your time at Intel.
Daniel Holmlund (02:17):
Yeah, okay, so I've been a computer software
engineer for 24 years now, andabout half my career has been at
Intel.
I started there in 2010 andwent through 2023.
And I was one of thoseprogrammers who actually enjoyed
talking to people, and so,after being in my cube and
programming for a number ofyears, I actually became part of
(02:38):
the teaching team there and wewould train developers all over
the country.
Originally, it was inindustrial manufacturing
processing for the first part ofmy time there so how do you
integrate CPUs with industrialequipment in factories?
And then the last half of itwas actually with Intel's
generative AI product calledOpenVINO, and it started off as
(03:02):
a computer vision project andthen gradually encompassed other
areas, such as generativelanguage and speech recognition
and other AI processes that wethink of nowadays.
John Hauber (03:15):
What year was that where you were starting to work
on AI?
Daniel Holmlund (03:19):
End of 2016,.
Beginning of 2017 was thetransition over there beginning
of 2017 was the transition overthere.
John Hauber (03:25):
So AI, basically in some form or another, has been
worked on for the last nineyears.
It's not something that justall of a sudden popped up.
Daniel Holmlund (03:38):
I mean, the roots of it go back all the way
to the 1950s and probably themodern incarnation of it started
at Google in 2011 with some oftheir in-house projects and it
was kind of Google internal fora while, but it hit the
mainstream.
You know 20, 2017, 2018 fordevelopers and then the larger
community after 2020 and 2021.
John Hauber (03:58):
So tell us so far in your expertise with
artificial intelligence what'sbeen the favorite part of your
learning journey.
Daniel Holmlund (04:09):
You know, I probably should relate this back
to my learning journey in termsof real estate as well.
You know, my background is in2018.
I actually started the realestate club at Intel and I have
been running that club everysingle Friday.
It's now called the AlternativeInvesting Club because I'm no
longer at Intel and so it's apublic club.
We grew that group to a littleover 1300 people in about four
(04:32):
years all Intel employees andthen when AI started to hit, you
know, at least for me, thelargest part of AI is that it
challenges business people torethink how they do their
day-to-day activities, andworking with AI is a mindset
shift.
(04:53):
It's similar to what manybusiness people have experienced
in terms of being able todelegate work.
A lot of, you know, smallbusiness entrepreneurs have
difficulty, at least at first,with delegating work to other
people, hiring other people.
This might be more common withengineers who, like do
(05:15):
everything themselves, but thesame sort of mind shift change
also applies to AI.
Ai is literally changing everyindustry we have.
Right now it's being talkedabout, you know, from the
largest governments to thesmallest of startups and every
single industry that's out there, and people are really
struggling to understand.
(05:36):
How is this going to change mybusiness process?
And also, how am I going to beable to use this in order to,
you know, stay competitive in mycurrent environment?
One thing that a lot of peopledon't understand with AI is that
AI is beginning to take theplace of search engines for a
lot of people.
(05:56):
I'm on, you know, ChatGPT morethan I'm on Google now doing the
same sort of queries, Googlenow doing the same sort of
queries, and one of the thingsthat business owners are seeing
is that when they go to ChatGPTor Claude, or, you know,
DeepSeek or Gemini or whateverPerplexity, whatever your
favorite large language model is, if they type in their business
(06:19):
and search for it just likethey would in Google, well, it
comes up in Google, but itdoesn't come up in the large
language model.
And so the customer journey.
Business owners have to ask thequestion how can I get my
platform represented while there?
What's my SEO strategy for AI?
Because it's different thansearch engines.
John Hauber (06:40):
That's your expertise nowadays, correct?
Daniel?
You're focused on businessprocesses with AI, so let's go a
little bit deeper on that.
How do you communicate, andwhat do you communicate, to
businesses that are juststarting to implement, or
starting to dabble, bringingartificial intelligence into
(07:00):
their business?
Daniel Holmlund (07:02):
Sure.
So one of the difficultiesright now is that a lot of
people are excited about AI andthey know it's going to impact
their business, but they don'tknow what to do with it.
Most people, you know they'relimited, really, to just typing
into chat, gpt and getting aresponse back, and they don't
see how this is actually goingto transform their work
processes.
So one of the things we do isfirst, an initial thought
(07:25):
exercise.
Can you outline?
When we sit down with clientsthat we are helping to implement
AI in their business, we askthem hey, can you sit down and
create a flow diagram of some ofyour largest business processes
, whether it's, you know, leadacquisition, or you know, moving
an investor through a salesfunnel, or you know responding
(07:47):
to customer support, whatever ithappens to be?
Can you create a flow diagram ofthat?
And once we understand what thebusiness is doing, then we can
help you address how toimplement AI with a strategy,
because we can look at yourbusiness workflow and say, hey,
this component over here thiscould be replaced by AI, but
right here you need a human inthe loop that's going to check
(08:11):
AI and make sure that you're notsending, you know, wrong
information or hallucinatedinformation to your client.
So I actually I have twodifferent jobs.
One of them is I run a realestate fund for the Alternative
Investment Club, or anAlternative Investing Fund,
actually and then my previousday job was working as a
software engineer, and I do thatwith clients now.
(08:33):
I help them implement AI intheir businesses.
John Hauber (08:36):
Well, thank you for that clarification.
So let's kind of move towardthat Alternative Investing Club
and how you meld AI withcommercial real estate industry.
What are some of the tips andtricks do you have?
So, for example, I went to aconference and they were showing
me how to input a PPM, aprivate placement memorandum,
(08:59):
along with an operatingagreement into ChatGPT4 to see
if there's any you know, anyhidden fees or things of that
sort.
So tell us a little bit on howyou use it in your alternative
investment club and thecommercial real estate industry.
Daniel Holmlund (09:16):
Yeah.
So when you're seeing a demolike that one of the it's really
great in terms of demos and alot of people have really great
demos and then when you go totry to use it in the real world,
it doesn't work very well.
I guarantee you, if you put ayou know, actually chat into
ChatGPT, it would overflow yourallowed tokens or AI tokens and
(09:52):
it eats up and drives up yourcosts incredibly fast in order
to operate like that.
And one of the developmentsthat has happened and this is
more on a technical sense thathas happened, and this is more
on a technical sense and so forreal estate investors, I suggest
you look for SaaS companies orcompanies that are rolling these
services out, and theseservices are called RAG services
(10:13):
the Retrieval, augmentedGeneration Services and the
reason why this is important isbecause, if you have 150 page
PPM, the large language model isgoing to use however many
tokens let's say it's a milliontokens in order to read that
(10:36):
entire thing, pull all theinformation out and every query
that you ask it of, it has to goand synthesize and go through
all that information again.
So it's incredibly inefficientin terms of its processing,
which is driving up your realcosts in using it.
So, with retrieval, augmentedgeneration and a lot of chatbots
are using this, but there are alot of applications that are
(10:58):
built around it too.
What happens is that documentis pre-processed and it is
converted into what's calledembeddings, and those embeddings
are a quick way of dividing upthe document, and then, when you
do your query, a search isperformed in order to find the
sections of the document thatare relevant to what you're
(11:18):
asking, and that, and only that,is sent to the chat GPT.
It'll take the cost of amillion tokens and reduce it
down to, you know, 1% or less ofwhat that cost is, and so we're
starting to see a lot of toolsthat are RAG based, and the
other big industry buzzwordright now is agentic AI, and
(11:41):
agentic AI is where, instead ofsearching through large
documents, agentic AI has theability to leverage tools so it
can make an appointment on yourcalendar.
Put a to do in your to do list.
That's a great way ofautomating your business.
John Hauber (11:56):
Do a walkthrough of the current AI tools that
you're using today to makeinvestment decisions or business
processes within theAlternative Investing Club.
Tell us some of those toolsthat you're using.
Daniel Holmlund (12:11):
Sure.
So right now, notebook LN andNotebook LN is a RAG product.
That's exactly what it is.
It's a great example of a RAGproduct.
I'm also using OpenAI has thefunctionality to do what's
called function hauling, and so,as a real estate person, I have
access to a lot of information,from Esri, for instance, that
(12:34):
has a huge amount of demographicinformation, and one of the
nice things about Esri well, oneof the nice things is it has a
huge amount of information.
The thing that's not so niceabout it is that it's really
difficult to use, and so I'veactually put together a OpenAI
front end to Esri that I use alot that will allow me just to
(12:55):
pull up a map and say, inEnglish or Spanish the LLM, you
know, does multiple languages,but in natural language, find
this property, pull it up on themap, show me the average income
in a one, three and five mileradius and generate a report
based on that, and so you canuse function calling with open
(13:16):
AI.
And now, for most people, whatyou're going to need to do is
you need to go find a softwareprovider that provides that as a
service, and I think mostpeople, what you're going to
need to do is you need to gofind a software provider that
provides that as a service, andI think Esri is coming out with
an AI product.
I don't know what it entailsyet, so I use that quite a bit.
I use automations with Zapierand I also use a tool called N8n
(13:36):
, which is similar to the typesof zaps that you can create with
Zapier.
The only difference is that youcan run it on your own machine
rather than running it on Zapierservice, so it's cheaper.
I also use mainly rag tools, tobe honest, because a lot of
what we do in real estate is wego and pull apart a PPM or pull
(13:59):
apart an investor, investors, abroker's, om, and find all the
key details and ask those keydetails to be put into our
financial models.
If you've got a system that cando that, you can speed up the
number of you know acquisition,potential acquisitions that
you're looking at by an order ofmagnitude, and so that's a big
(14:21):
area to investigate as well.
John Hauber (14:25):
Okay, so if someone wants to understand more about
RAGs systems, do they justGoogle RAG systems?
Daniel Holmlund (14:32):
Yeah, so you can.
Google retrieval, augmentedgeneration or RAG, and also
Google agentic.
There are one of thedifficulties right now is we're
moving through the hype cycle isthat there are so many tools
out there it is insane andthey're changing so fast.
We're going through thatinitial blossom of, you know, 10
(14:54):
100,000 businesses opening upand over the next couple of
years we'll go through marketconsolidation where the ones
that don't make it throughmarket consolidation, where the
ones that don't make it don'tmake it the ones that make it
get bought up and consolidated.
Right now I recommend Notebook.
Lm is a good one to start with.
It's really, honestly, thelowest hanging or easiest to use
(15:14):
.
I should say not lowest hanging.
John Hauber (15:16):
It's pretty incredible and our listeners who
listen to the Senior HousingInvestors podcast have heard two
individuals going into a deepdive on reports that I send them
and the feedback we'rereceiving is that it's fantastic
.
Daniel Holmlund (15:32):
Let me talk about how I actually use rags.
In the Alternative InvestingClub, we have a speaker every
single Friday.
I'm really proud of our trackrecord.
We have brought in speakers onaverage 47 times a year on
Friday for the past six years,so it's like clockwork every
Friday, and that has allowed themembers of the alternative
(15:53):
investing club to be moreeducated and to be exposed to
more opportunities.
And so one of the things thatwe do is that we bring people in
, potentially as educationaltalks, as pitch talks, or they
can be part of the club fund,meaning that they're going to
come in and give a pitch and ourclub fund is going to raise
funds for their particular deal.
(16:13):
And that means that I need togo through a lot of different
investments and model them out.
If somebody is going to come inand pitch a deal in the
Alternative Investing Club, weneed to do some due diligence
ahead of time, and we do caveatit that we are not a financial
advisor, we're not a tax advisor, we're none of those things.
We're investors that have a clubfor investors and by investors,
(16:36):
but at the same time, I'm alsorunning the club fund and we
need to do our due diligenceahead of time, and so we will.
We'll take the OMS and theinvestor presentations and run
them through.
You know our rag software andit will generate, you know, a
nice investor return profilebased on the information there
(16:56):
and it will highlight, likethings like where the red flags
in the deal, what are the?
What type of investor would belooking for this deal?
Is this an appreciationinvestor, somebody's looking for
tax savings, somebody's lookingfor income?
It goes through and basicallywe can, we can feed our due
diligence checklist to it and itwill go through and do the
(17:18):
checklists on it, and so thatallows us to get through more
deals and weed out ones that wedon't necessarily want to
present at our club.
John Hauber (17:31):
So tell us some of those key numbers that you look
for in an opportunity, so thatyou're not inundated with a
bunch of opportunity deals thatyou're like.
No, I wish I would have saidthat this is our kind of our
mark of what we're looking for.
So tell us what you're thefunder in the Alternative
(17:52):
Investment Club is looking fortoday.
Daniel Holmlund (17:56):
Yeah, we have five pillars of risk and, in
general, the fund.
One of the things I like aboutthe fund is that once a person
is qualified, we actually letthe club decide how much money
they're going to invest.
So we'll send out a capitalcall after they talk and
whatever comes in at that point,that's what we invest, and so
(18:17):
the club has a very direct voicein the percentage allocations
of the fund.
That's what we invest, and sothe club has a very direct voice
in the percentage allocationsof the fund.
And the other nice thing aboutthis is that it's not just real
estate.
We have debt validation inthere and we have investing in
aviation.
So we had a fund come in thatinvests in purchasing 737s and
(18:38):
other types of planes and thenleasing them back to airlines,
and they even purchase theengines themselves.
And I never realized this whenI was sitting in an airplane is
that if you look out the windowand you see that engine, there
are investors that ownfractional percentages of that
engine and they're all in a fundsomewhere.
One of the things that AI letsus do is evaluate.
(19:00):
You know, look for our keymetrics.
Even if the asset type is verydifferent, it tries to diversify
, highly diversify the passiveincome sources that are in the
fund, and so senior living is agreat example of that, because
it is a unique businessproposition.
The demographic trends areundeniable, it has value add
(19:21):
income services and that it'snot just collecting rent but
it's also providing care andhospice and other other things
which you know cause the rent tobe higher or the income to be
higher.
Rather, variety of deals andthen putting it in front of an
(19:43):
audience is really, and lettingthe audience vote on what they
want to put into it is reallythe key differentiator in our
club fund.
In terms of AI, we're lookingmainly for income.
Right now, Most of the peoplethat are in our club are well,
there's a good gambit ofeverybody, but I would say it's
40s to 50s would probably be theaverage age.
There's quite a few 20s and 30year olds that are looking to
(20:05):
figure out their investmentstrategy, but I think it's it's
an older group and that might bean artifact of being at Intel,
but those people are looking forasset protection or capital
preservation and they're alsolooking for income and some
growth, and so we really focuson investments that are going to
(20:25):
provide, you know, immediateincome and not not necessarily
income.
For instance, we avoid mostdevelopment deals because you
know development deals aren'tgoing to provide income until
the property is actually built,which could be two, three years
down the line.
And we also we also enjoyhaving a variety of groups in
(20:46):
there.
So RVs we even had, we didn't.
We didn't invest with thisindividual.
But we've had some individualwe had.
We had a person come in whoseentire fund was based on buying
pricey casks of wine or barrelsof wine and like high priced
whiskeys, and he knew how totrade the market there and so he
(21:07):
had a fund so he could tradethe market and he had solid
returns for many years.
It was an interestingalternative investment class and
that's really what we likedoing is educating and showing
people what they can do.
John Hauber (21:22):
Yeah, so that's every Friday.
You have someone new on eitherpitching an opportunity or
educating the public on aparticular asset class or
investment area.
What's the wackiest thingyou've ever been presented with?
Like what is this?
Daniel Holmlund (21:41):
wackiest thing you've ever been presented with.
Like, what is this?
Oh well, honestly, the wine andwhiskey fund was up there We've
had on occasion.
I mean, for the first fouryears, while we were Intel
internal, we were an employeeclub.
We did not allow any pitcheswhatsoever.
And we did have some peoplethat came in kind of under false
pretenses and didn't do aneducational talk.
(22:03):
They did a pitch which couldhave gotten me in a lot of
trouble with HR.
I didn't tell so that that wasa situation for a little while,
and you learn to screen thosepeople out.
You know, the airline one isalso pretty wacky, actually in
and here recently to the debtvalidation group.
That's a really interesting onetoo, because what they do is
(22:27):
they.
They look for veterans andfirst responders who have
medical debt.
That's crushing them, and a lotof them do, and medical debt is
the number one cause ofbankruptcy here in the united
States, and so people that areinjured and they have high
medical bills and unable to work, a lot of them are just paying
it on their credit cards andthey're paying, you know, 30%
(22:48):
interest and they're in a holethey just will never dig out of.
And so what this group does, isthey actually?
They find these people throughthey have an advertising agency
that'll find these people andthey go to the creditors and
purchase their debt, so theirdebt obligation, and then they
(23:11):
have a legal staff whichspecializes in saying, hey, the
creditors over here werepurchasing it but they were not
following the fair creditpractices, and so they're able
to actually bring that debt tocourt and invalidate the, you
know, sometimes 70 percent of it, but it's 50 percent.
(23:32):
So, you know, one hundredthousand dollars of medical
bills suddenly becomes, you know, 30 to 50.
And then they turn around, theyhave a fund and they raise
capital from investors andthat's how they purchase the
debt.
They turn around, take thatdebt and restructure the deal
with the first responder orveteran and they always give
(23:53):
them a two-year time period anda hugely reduced interest rate
it's often around 5% and they'reable to get those veterans and
first responders on a path tobeing out of debt and they also
provide, you know, a 20% annualreturn to the investors.
I love investments where you'reactually helping people.
John Hauber (24:13):
So that's what we call social impact investing.
So is that where your heart isinvesting in, where it's helping
others?
Daniel Holmlund (24:22):
I like being involved in those types of deals
and I will definitely favorthem and definitely I want them
to get airtime in the clubbecause I want more people to
think about investing.
That way.
I do tend to favor those.
The other types of deals I likeright now are actually tax
abatement deals.
A lot of MSAs throughout theUnited States right now are
(24:42):
finding it.
You know, there's a homelessnessproblem and there is a low
income housing problem, theshortage of housing, and so a
lot, of, a lot of cities aretrying to figure out well, how
do we handle this situation, andthere are different ways of
doing it.
Some are imposing rent control,some are using tax abatements.
Tax abatements are a great wayfor an investor to come in and
(25:07):
be incentivized to invest into acommunity incentivize to invest
into a community, and so if yougo look at I know Houston often
has programs along this line,but a lot of cities do Basically
, if you go to the city and findout what their tax abatement
programs are, you can go in andpurchase a property and get a
huge tax deduction on thatproperty.
(25:29):
The nice thing about that froma investor's point of view is
that you know the operator in alot of syndications or apartment
investments or other types ofcommercial property investments,
are talking about value add interms of bumping up rents.
Well, in this particular case,if you can get a huge tax
(25:50):
abatement, you can get a largepercentage.
First of all, you can make thatinvestor return just by signing
a contract with the city.
Let me give you a concreteexample.
I was involved with Lone StarCapital, who operates in Houston
, and they had a very largepackage.
It was three large propertiesfor $100,500,000.
(26:16):
And the deal that they had withHouston in this particular case
is that if they dedicated andthere's a lot of nuance to it,
but basically it boiled down toif they dedicated 50 percent of
the units to 80 percent of areamedian income residents, then
they would get a 100 percent taxproperty tax abatement or they
(26:40):
would be exempt from propertytaxes for a period of 99 years.
Wow, yeah, the program actuallyis gone now because I honestly I
think it was it was too good ofa program.
Gone now because I honestly Ithink it was.
It was too good of a programand we had the right to or Lone
Star has the right to sell thatproperty to the next person and
they get an 85 percent abatementof property taxes for the same
(27:04):
time period, and so the nicething from my perspective,
running a club fund is is that Idon't have to depend on whoever
the operator is to executetheir business.
Why I do have to depend on them, but it's not.
The execution of the businessplan is lower risk because the
profit is made at acquisitiontime, when they sign those
(27:26):
documents and they get the taxrebate, and then you know they
have to run the property.
John Hauber (27:43):
Well, obviously, but anything that reduces risk
is worth looking at.
You can acquire commercial realestate with underlying fixed
rate debt at somewhere between2% and 4% and it's a stellar
deal.
And so those who listen to thepodcast and understand the
(28:14):
program, that's part of thesenior housing space and that is
the HUD 232 Loan for AssistedLiving communities.
These are 35 years fixed rateand that kind of really de-risks
opportunity or deals.
It de-risks it because thatdebt is not going to change.
As you know, and as Loan StarCapital knows, with multifamily
2021-2022, you get into thesefloating great rates and now
(28:36):
they're all repricing and so ifyou haven't been able to raise
rents which in many cities is ismore difficult to do then your
return to your investors is justcut.
I mean, it's just verydifficult.
And then capital calls and allthat other stuff that's going on
currently.
We'll work our way through it.
Daniel Holmlund (28:57):
You probably talked about this on your
podcast, I'm sure.
But the tariffs, of course, aremaking new construction costs
go, which means that olderproduct is going to also
appreciate along with it,Because even though it's older,
it's already constructed.
With construction.
You know prices that are beforethe tariffs and so you can you
can get them at better prices,and the rising construction
(29:18):
rates are going to cause atendency to appreciate.
So you're getting.
It's making older propertiesmore attractive by making newer
properties more expensive.
John Hauber (29:27):
Well, you know, we're we're picking up a couple
that were built in 1996, andthey are just strong bones,
well-maintained, just beautiful.
And to replace these propertiesit's very expensive to do.
We're picking them up for $95 aunit.
(29:47):
There's no way you could go anddevelop today at $95 a unit,
maybe $240, $250.
So, yes, and 80% of all seniorliving communities facilities
are in the United States areover the age of 20 years old.
So let's wrap this up and, ifyou can, let our audience know
(30:10):
what is the AlternativeInvesting Club, how can they get
involved with it and how canthey reach out to you to get
involved?
Daniel Holmlund (30:25):
Sure.
So the Alternative InvestingClub is a club for people who
want to learn about alternativeinvesting.
We're an educational club andwe also provide opportunities.
That come through.
It's open to the public.
That come through.
It's open to the public.
Just go toAlternativeInvestingClubcom and
fill out the call to action.
It's at the top of the web page.
That says give us your emailaddress and we'll send you
invites to our Friday meetings.
And then also, if you'reinterested in implementing AI in
your business, you know, writeto me personally at Daniel at
(30:47):
AlternativeInvestingClubcom.
I work with clients to helpthem implement AI in their
business.
It's often in processing,whatever their acquisition
workflow is, or lead generation,or social media and marketing,
because AI can be used togenerate those sorts of things
as well.
John Hauber (31:05):
Well, it's been a pleasure, Daniel, getting to
know you and getting to knowyour passion for AI and
investing and business processes, so thank you very much and
hope you have a good day.
Daniel Holmlund (31:17):
Thank you, john , and anytime you want to speak
again at the AlternativeInvesting Club, the door is open
.
John Hauber (31:23):
Thank you so much you.
The largest part of AI is that it challenges
business people to rethink howthey do their day-to-day
activities, and working with AIis a mindset shift.
It's similar to what manybusiness people have experienced
in terms of being able todelegate work.
(00:29):
A lot of small businessentrepreneurs have difficulty,
at least at first, withdelegating work to other people,
hiring other people.
This might be more common withengineers, who like to do
everything themselves.
But the same sort of mind shiftchange also applies to AI.
Ai is literally changing everyindustry we have right now.
(00:53):
It's being talked about, youknow, from the largest
governments to the smallest ofstartups, and in every single
industry that's out there.
John Hauber (01:04):
Welcome to the Senior Housing Investors Podcast
.
If you are an owner operator,investor, developer or buyer of
senior housing, you've come tothe right place.
The best way to stay connectedwith us is to sign up for our
weekly newsletter athavenseniorinvestmentscom.
This podcast doesn't existwithout you, our community.
(01:26):
Thank you for listening andreach out to us anytime.
Kelsie Heermans (01:37):
Welcome back everyone.
I'm excited to introducetoday's host, john Hauber.
Joining him is Daniel Holmlund,founder of the Alternative
Investing Club, an AI expert andlongtime senior software
engineer.
You're in for a greatconversation on how emerging
tech is shaping the future.
Take it away, john.
John Hauber (01:59):
Thanks, Kelsey, Daniel.
Welcome to the show.
Daniel Holmlund (02:03):
It's a pleasure to be here, John.
John Hauber (02:05):
Absolutely.
It's good to have you, and soyou know we're going to jump
right in and tell us a littlebit about your background and
your time at Intel.
Daniel Holmlund (02:17):
Yeah, okay, so I've been a computer software
engineer for 24 years now, andabout half my career has been at
Intel.
I started there in 2010 andwent through 2023.
And I was one of thoseprogrammers who actually enjoyed
talking to people, and so,after being in my cube and
programming for a number ofyears, I actually became part of
(02:38):
the teaching team there and wewould train developers all over
the country.
Originally, it was inindustrial manufacturing
processing for the first part ofmy time there so how do you
integrate CPUs with industrialequipment in factories?
And then the last half of itwas actually with Intel's
generative AI product calledOpenVINO, and it started off as
(03:02):
a computer vision project andthen gradually encompassed other
areas, such as generativelanguage and speech recognition
and other AI processes that wethink of nowadays.
John Hauber (03:15):
What year was that where you were starting to work
on AI?
Daniel Holmlund (03:19):
End of 2016,.
Beginning of 2017 was thetransition over there beginning
of 2017 was the transition overthere.
John Hauber (03:25):
So AI, basically in some form or another, has been
worked on for the last nineyears.
It's not something that justall of a sudden popped up.
Daniel Holmlund (03:38):
I mean, the roots of it go back all the way
to the 1950s and probably themodern incarnation of it started
at Google in 2011 with some oftheir in-house projects and it
was kind of Google internal fora while, but it hit the
mainstream.
You know 20, 2017, 2018 fordevelopers and then the larger
community after 2020 and 2021.
John Hauber (03:58):
So tell us so far in your expertise with
artificial intelligence what'sbeen the favorite part of your
learning journey.
Daniel Holmlund (04:09):
You know, I probably should relate this back
to my learning journey in termsof real estate as well.
You know, my background is in2018.
I actually started the realestate club at Intel and I have
been running that club everysingle Friday.
It's now called the AlternativeInvesting Club because I'm no
longer at Intel and so it's apublic club.
We grew that group to a littleover 1300 people in about four
(04:32):
years all Intel employees andthen when AI started to hit, you
know, at least for me, thelargest part of AI is that it
challenges business people torethink how they do their
day-to-day activities, andworking with AI is a mindset
shift.
(04:53):
It's similar to what manybusiness people have experienced
in terms of being able todelegate work.
A lot of, you know, smallbusiness entrepreneurs have
difficulty, at least at first,with delegating work to other
people, hiring other people.
This might be more common withengineers who, like do
(05:15):
everything themselves, but thesame sort of mind shift change
also applies to AI.
Ai is literally changing everyindustry we have.
Right now it's being talkedabout, you know, from the
largest governments to thesmallest of startups and every
single industry that's out there, and people are really
struggling to understand.
(05:36):
How is this going to change mybusiness process?
And also, how am I going to beable to use this in order to,
you know, stay competitive in mycurrent environment?
One thing that a lot of peopledon't understand with AI is that
AI is beginning to take theplace of search engines for a
lot of people.
(05:56):
I'm on, you know, ChatGPT morethan I'm on Google now doing the
same sort of queries, Googlenow doing the same sort of
queries, and one of the thingsthat business owners are seeing
is that when they go to ChatGPTor Claude, or, you know,
DeepSeek or Gemini or whateverPerplexity, whatever your
favorite large language model is, if they type in their business
(06:19):
and search for it just likethey would in Google, well, it
comes up in Google, but itdoesn't come up in the large
language model.
And so the customer journey.
Business owners have to ask thequestion how can I get my
platform represented while there?
What's my SEO strategy for AI?
Because it's different thansearch engines.
John Hauber (06:40):
That's your expertise nowadays, correct?
Daniel?
You're focused on businessprocesses with AI, so let's go a
little bit deeper on that.
How do you communicate, andwhat do you communicate, to
businesses that are juststarting to implement, or
starting to dabble, bringingartificial intelligence into
(07:00):
their business?
Daniel Holmlund (07:02):
Sure.
So one of the difficultiesright now is that a lot of
people are excited about AI andthey know it's going to impact
their business, but they don'tknow what to do with it.
Most people, you know they'relimited, really, to just typing
into chat, gpt and getting aresponse back, and they don't
see how this is actually goingto transform their work
processes.
So one of the things we do isfirst, an initial thought
(07:25):
exercise.
Can you outline?
When we sit down with clientsthat we are helping to implement
AI in their business, we askthem hey, can you sit down and
create a flow diagram of some ofyour largest business processes
, whether it's, you know, leadacquisition, or you know, moving
an investor through a salesfunnel, or you know responding
(07:47):
to customer support, whatever ithappens to be?
Can you create a flow diagram ofthat?
And once we understand what thebusiness is doing, then we can
help you address how toimplement AI with a strategy,
because we can look at yourbusiness workflow and say, hey,
this component over here thiscould be replaced by AI, but
right here you need a human inthe loop that's going to check
(08:11):
AI and make sure that you're notsending, you know, wrong
information or hallucinatedinformation to your client.
So I actually I have twodifferent jobs.
One of them is I run a realestate fund for the Alternative
Investment Club, or anAlternative Investing Fund,
actually and then my previousday job was working as a
software engineer, and I do thatwith clients now.
(08:33):
I help them implement AI intheir businesses.
John Hauber (08:36):
Well, thank you for that clarification.
So let's kind of move towardthat Alternative Investing Club
and how you meld AI withcommercial real estate industry.
What are some of the tips andtricks do you have?
So, for example, I went to aconference and they were showing
me how to input a PPM, aprivate placement memorandum,
(08:59):
along with an operatingagreement into ChatGPT4 to see
if there's any you know, anyhidden fees or things of that
sort.
So tell us a little bit on howyou use it in your alternative
investment club and thecommercial real estate industry.
Daniel Holmlund (09:16):
Yeah.
So when you're seeing a demolike that one of the it's really
great in terms of demos and alot of people have really great
demos and then when you go totry to use it in the real world,
it doesn't work very well.
I guarantee you, if you put ayou know, actually chat into
ChatGPT, it would overflow yourallowed tokens or AI tokens and
(09:52):
it eats up and drives up yourcosts incredibly fast in order
to operate like that.
And one of the developmentsthat has happened and this is
more on a technical sense thathas happened, and this is more
on a technical sense and so forreal estate investors, I suggest
you look for SaaS companies orcompanies that are rolling these
services out, and theseservices are called RAG services
(10:13):
the Retrieval, augmentedGeneration Services and the
reason why this is important isbecause, if you have 150 page
PPM, the large language model isgoing to use however many
tokens let's say it's a milliontokens in order to read that
(10:36):
entire thing, pull all theinformation out and every query
that you ask it of, it has to goand synthesize and go through
all that information again.
So it's incredibly inefficientin terms of its processing,
which is driving up your realcosts in using it.
So, with retrieval, augmentedgeneration and a lot of chatbots
are using this, but there are alot of applications that are
(10:58):
built around it too.
What happens is that documentis pre-processed and it is
converted into what's calledembeddings, and those embeddings
are a quick way of dividing upthe document, and then, when you
do your query, a search isperformed in order to find the
sections of the document thatare relevant to what you're
(11:18):
asking, and that, and only that,is sent to the chat GPT.
It'll take the cost of amillion tokens and reduce it
down to, you know, 1% or less ofwhat that cost is, and so we're
starting to see a lot of toolsthat are RAG based, and the
other big industry buzzwordright now is agentic AI, and
(11:41):
agentic AI is where, instead ofsearching through large
documents, agentic AI has theability to leverage tools so it
can make an appointment on yourcalendar.
Put a to do in your to do list.
That's a great way ofautomating your business.
John Hauber (11:56):
Do a walkthrough of the current AI tools that
you're using today to makeinvestment decisions or business
processes within theAlternative Investing Club.
Tell us some of those toolsthat you're using.
Daniel Holmlund (12:11):
Sure.
So right now, notebook LN andNotebook LN is a RAG product.
That's exactly what it is.
It's a great example of a RAGproduct.
I'm also using OpenAI has thefunctionality to do what's
called function hauling, and so,as a real estate person, I have
access to a lot of information,from Esri, for instance, that
(12:34):
has a huge amount of demographicinformation, and one of the
nice things about Esri well, oneof the nice things is it has a
huge amount of information.
The thing that's not so niceabout it is that it's really
difficult to use, and so I'veactually put together a OpenAI
front end to Esri that I use alot that will allow me just to
(12:55):
pull up a map and say, inEnglish or Spanish the LLM, you
know, does multiple languages,but in natural language, find
this property, pull it up on themap, show me the average income
in a one, three and five mileradius and generate a report
based on that, and so you canuse function calling with open
(13:16):
AI.
And now, for most people, whatyou're going to need to do is
you need to go find a softwareprovider that provides that as a
service, and I think mostpeople, what you're going to
need to do is you need to gofind a software provider that
provides that as a service, andI think Esri is coming out with
an AI product.
I don't know what it entailsyet, so I use that quite a bit.
I use automations with Zapierand I also use a tool called N8n
(13:36):
, which is similar to the typesof zaps that you can create with
Zapier.
The only difference is that youcan run it on your own machine
rather than running it on Zapierservice, so it's cheaper.
I also use mainly rag tools, tobe honest, because a lot of
what we do in real estate is wego and pull apart a PPM or pull
(13:59):
apart an investor, investors, abroker's, om, and find all the
key details and ask those keydetails to be put into our
financial models.
If you've got a system that cando that, you can speed up the
number of you know acquisition,potential acquisitions that
you're looking at by an order ofmagnitude, and so that's a big
(14:21):
area to investigate as well.
John Hauber (14:25):
Okay, so if someone wants to understand more about
RAGs systems, do they justGoogle RAG systems?
Daniel Holmlund (14:32):
Yeah, so you can.
Google retrieval, augmentedgeneration or RAG, and also
Google agentic.
There are one of thedifficulties right now is we're
moving through the hype cycle isthat there are so many tools
out there it is insane andthey're changing so fast.
We're going through thatinitial blossom of, you know, 10
(14:54):
100,000 businesses opening upand over the next couple of
years we'll go through marketconsolidation where the ones
that don't make it throughmarket consolidation, where the
ones that don't make it don'tmake it the ones that make it
get bought up and consolidated.
Right now I recommend Notebook.
Lm is a good one to start with.
It's really, honestly, thelowest hanging or easiest to use
(15:14):
.
I should say not lowest hanging.
John Hauber (15:16):
It's pretty incredible and our listeners who
listen to the Senior HousingInvestors podcast have heard two
individuals going into a deepdive on reports that I send them
and the feedback we'rereceiving is that it's fantastic
.
Daniel Holmlund (15:32):
Let me talk about how I actually use rags.
In the Alternative InvestingClub, we have a speaker every
single Friday.
I'm really proud of our trackrecord.
We have brought in speakers onaverage 47 times a year on
Friday for the past six years,so it's like clockwork every
Friday, and that has allowed themembers of the alternative
(15:53):
investing club to be moreeducated and to be exposed to
more opportunities.
And so one of the things thatwe do is that we bring people in
, potentially as educationaltalks, as pitch talks, or they
can be part of the club fund,meaning that they're going to
come in and give a pitch and ourclub fund is going to raise
funds for their particular deal.
(16:13):
And that means that I need togo through a lot of different
investments and model them out.
If somebody is going to come inand pitch a deal in the
Alternative Investing Club, weneed to do some due diligence
ahead of time, and we do caveatit that we are not a financial
advisor, we're not a tax advisor, we're none of those things.
We're investors that have a clubfor investors and by investors,
(16:36):
but at the same time, I'm alsorunning the club fund and we
need to do our due diligenceahead of time, and so we will.
We'll take the OMS and theinvestor presentations and run
them through.
You know our rag software andit will generate, you know, a
nice investor return profilebased on the information there
(16:56):
and it will highlight, likethings like where the red flags
in the deal, what are the?
What type of investor would belooking for this deal?
Is this an appreciationinvestor, somebody's looking for
tax savings, somebody's lookingfor income?
It goes through and basicallywe can, we can feed our due
diligence checklist to it and itwill go through and do the
(17:18):
checklists on it, and so thatallows us to get through more
deals and weed out ones that wedon't necessarily want to
present at our club.
John Hauber (17:31):
So tell us some of those key numbers that you look
for in an opportunity, so thatyou're not inundated with a
bunch of opportunity deals thatyou're like.
No, I wish I would have saidthat this is our kind of our
mark of what we're looking for.
So tell us what you're thefunder in the Alternative
(17:52):
Investment Club is looking fortoday.
Daniel Holmlund (17:56):
Yeah, we have five pillars of risk and, in
general, the fund.
One of the things I like aboutthe fund is that once a person
is qualified, we actually letthe club decide how much money
they're going to invest.
So we'll send out a capitalcall after they talk and
whatever comes in at that point,that's what we invest, and so
(18:17):
the club has a very direct voicein the percentage allocations
of the fund.
That's what we invest, and sothe club has a very direct voice
in the percentage allocationsof the fund.
And the other nice thing aboutthis is that it's not just real
estate.
We have debt validation inthere and we have investing in
aviation.
So we had a fund come in thatinvests in purchasing 737s and
(18:38):
other types of planes and thenleasing them back to airlines,
and they even purchase theengines themselves.
And I never realized this whenI was sitting in an airplane is
that if you look out the windowand you see that engine, there
are investors that ownfractional percentages of that
engine and they're all in a fundsomewhere.
One of the things that AI letsus do is evaluate.
(19:00):
You know, look for our keymetrics.
Even if the asset type is verydifferent, it tries to diversify
, highly diversify the passiveincome sources that are in the
fund, and so senior living is agreat example of that, because
it is a unique businessproposition.
The demographic trends areundeniable, it has value add
(19:21):
income services and that it'snot just collecting rent but
it's also providing care andhospice and other other things
which you know cause the rent tobe higher or the income to be
higher.
Rather, variety of deals andthen putting it in front of an
(19:43):
audience is really, and lettingthe audience vote on what they
want to put into it is reallythe key differentiator in our
club fund.
In terms of AI, we're lookingmainly for income.
Right now, Most of the peoplethat are in our club are well,
there's a good gambit ofeverybody, but I would say it's
40s to 50s would probably be theaverage age.
There's quite a few 20s and 30year olds that are looking to
(20:05):
figure out their investmentstrategy, but I think it's it's
an older group and that might bean artifact of being at Intel,
but those people are looking forasset protection or capital
preservation and they're alsolooking for income and some
growth, and so we really focuson investments that are going to
(20:25):
provide, you know, immediateincome and not not necessarily
income.
For instance, we avoid mostdevelopment deals because you
know development deals aren'tgoing to provide income until
the property is actually built,which could be two, three years
down the line.
And we also we also enjoyhaving a variety of groups in
(20:46):
there.
So RVs we even had, we didn't.
We didn't invest with thisindividual.
But we've had some individualwe had.
We had a person come in whoseentire fund was based on buying
pricey casks of wine or barrelsof wine and like high priced
whiskeys, and he knew how totrade the market there and so he
(21:07):
had a fund so he could tradethe market and he had solid
returns for many years.
It was an interestingalternative investment class and
that's really what we likedoing is educating and showing
people what they can do.
John Hauber (21:22):
Yeah, so that's every Friday.
You have someone new on eitherpitching an opportunity or
educating the public on aparticular asset class or
investment area.
What's the wackiest thingyou've ever been presented with?
Like what is this?
Daniel Holmlund (21:41):
wackiest thing you've ever been presented with.
Like, what is this?
Oh well, honestly, the wine andwhiskey fund was up there We've
had on occasion.
I mean, for the first fouryears, while we were Intel
internal, we were an employeeclub.
We did not allow any pitcheswhatsoever.
And we did have some peoplethat came in kind of under false
pretenses and didn't do aneducational talk.
(22:03):
They did a pitch which couldhave gotten me in a lot of
trouble with HR.
I didn't tell so that that wasa situation for a little while,
and you learn to screen thosepeople out.
You know, the airline one isalso pretty wacky, actually in
and here recently to the debtvalidation group.
That's a really interesting onetoo, because what they do is
(22:27):
they.
They look for veterans andfirst responders who have
medical debt.
That's crushing them, and a lotof them do, and medical debt is
the number one cause ofbankruptcy here in the united
States, and so people that areinjured and they have high
medical bills and unable to work, a lot of them are just paying
it on their credit cards andthey're paying, you know, 30%
(22:48):
interest and they're in a holethey just will never dig out of.
And so what this group does, isthey actually?
They find these people throughthey have an advertising agency
that'll find these people andthey go to the creditors and
purchase their debt, so theirdebt obligation, and then they
(23:11):
have a legal staff whichspecializes in saying, hey, the
creditors over here werepurchasing it but they were not
following the fair creditpractices, and so they're able
to actually bring that debt tocourt and invalidate the, you
know, sometimes 70 percent of it, but it's 50 percent.
(23:32):
So, you know, one hundredthousand dollars of medical
bills suddenly becomes, you know, 30 to 50.
And then they turn around, theyhave a fund and they raise
capital from investors andthat's how they purchase the
debt.
They turn around, take thatdebt and restructure the deal
with the first responder orveteran and they always give
(23:53):
them a two-year time period anda hugely reduced interest rate
it's often around 5% and they'reable to get those veterans and
first responders on a path tobeing out of debt and they also
provide, you know, a 20% annualreturn to the investors.
I love investments where you'reactually helping people.
John Hauber (24:13):
So that's what we call social impact investing.
So is that where your heart isinvesting in, where it's helping
others?
Daniel Holmlund (24:22):
I like being involved in those types of deals
and I will definitely favorthem and definitely I want them
to get airtime in the clubbecause I want more people to
think about investing.
That way.
I do tend to favor those.
The other types of deals I likeright now are actually tax
abatement deals.
A lot of MSAs throughout theUnited States right now are
(24:42):
finding it.
You know, there's a homelessnessproblem and there is a low
income housing problem, theshortage of housing, and so a
lot, of, a lot of cities aretrying to figure out well, how
do we handle this situation, andthere are different ways of
doing it.
Some are imposing rent control,some are using tax abatements.
Tax abatements are a great wayfor an investor to come in and
(25:07):
be incentivized to invest into acommunity incentivize to invest
into a community, and so if yougo look at I know Houston often
has programs along this line,but a lot of cities do Basically
, if you go to the city and findout what their tax abatement
programs are, you can go in andpurchase a property and get a
huge tax deduction on thatproperty.
(25:29):
The nice thing about that froma investor's point of view is
that you know the operator in alot of syndications or apartment
investments or other types ofcommercial property investments,
are talking about value add interms of bumping up rents.
Well, in this particular case,if you can get a huge tax
(25:50):
abatement, you can get a largepercentage.
First of all, you can make thatinvestor return just by signing
a contract with the city.
Let me give you a concreteexample.
I was involved with Lone StarCapital, who operates in Houston
, and they had a very largepackage.
It was three large propertiesfor $100,500,000.
(26:16):
And the deal that they had withHouston in this particular case
is that if they dedicated andthere's a lot of nuance to it,
but basically it boiled down toif they dedicated 50 percent of
the units to 80 percent of areamedian income residents, then
they would get a 100 percent taxproperty tax abatement or they
(26:40):
would be exempt from propertytaxes for a period of 99 years.
Wow, yeah, the program actuallyis gone now because I honestly I
think it was it was too good ofa program.
Gone now because I honestly Ithink it was.
It was too good of a programand we had the right to or Lone
Star has the right to sell thatproperty to the next person and
they get an 85 percent abatementof property taxes for the same
(27:04):
time period, and so the nicething from my perspective,
running a club fund is is that Idon't have to depend on whoever
the operator is to executetheir business.
Why I do have to depend on them, but it's not.
The execution of the businessplan is lower risk because the
profit is made at acquisitiontime, when they sign those
(27:26):
documents and they get the taxrebate, and then you know they
have to run the property.
John Hauber (27:43):
Well, obviously, but anything that reduces risk
is worth looking at.
You can acquire commercial realestate with underlying fixed
rate debt at somewhere between2% and 4% and it's a stellar
deal.
And so those who listen to thepodcast and understand the
(28:14):
program, that's part of thesenior housing space and that is
the HUD 232 Loan for AssistedLiving communities.
These are 35 years fixed rateand that kind of really de-risks
opportunity or deals.
It de-risks it because thatdebt is not going to change.
As you know, and as Loan StarCapital knows, with multifamily
2021-2022, you get into thesefloating great rates and now
(28:36):
they're all repricing and so ifyou haven't been able to raise
rents which in many cities is ismore difficult to do then your
return to your investors is justcut.
I mean, it's just verydifficult.
And then capital calls and allthat other stuff that's going on
currently.
We'll work our way through it.
Daniel Holmlund (28:57):
You probably talked about this on your
podcast, I'm sure.
But the tariffs, of course, aremaking new construction costs
go, which means that olderproduct is going to also
appreciate along with it,Because even though it's older,
it's already constructed.
With construction.
You know prices that are beforethe tariffs and so you can you
can get them at better prices,and the rising construction
(29:18):
rates are going to cause atendency to appreciate.
So you're getting.
It's making older propertiesmore attractive by making newer
properties more expensive.
John Hauber (29:27):
Well, you know, we're we're picking up a couple
that were built in 1996, andthey are just strong bones,
well-maintained, just beautiful.
And to replace these propertiesit's very expensive to do.
We're picking them up for $95 aunit.
(29:47):
There's no way you could go anddevelop today at $95 a unit,
maybe $240, $250.
So, yes, and 80% of all seniorliving communities facilities
are in the United States areover the age of 20 years old.
So let's wrap this up and, ifyou can, let our audience know
(30:10):
what is the AlternativeInvesting Club, how can they get
involved with it and how canthey reach out to you to get
involved?
Daniel Holmlund (30:25):
Sure.
So the Alternative InvestingClub is a club for people who
want to learn about alternativeinvesting.
We're an educational club andwe also provide opportunities.
That come through.
It's open to the public.
That come through.
It's open to the public.
Just go toAlternativeInvestingClubcom and
fill out the call to action.
It's at the top of the web page.
That says give us your emailaddress and we'll send you
invites to our Friday meetings.
And then also, if you'reinterested in implementing AI in
your business, you know, writeto me personally at Daniel at
(30:47):
AlternativeInvestingClubcom.
I work with clients to helpthem implement AI in their
business.
It's often in processing,whatever their acquisition
workflow is, or lead generation,or social media and marketing,
because AI can be used togenerate those sorts of things
as well.
John Hauber (31:05):
Well, it's been a pleasure, Daniel, getting to
know you and getting to knowyour passion for AI and
investing and business processes, so thank you very much and
hope you have a good day.
Daniel Holmlund (31:17):
Thank you, john , and anytime you want to speak
again at the AlternativeInvesting Club, the door is open
.
John Hauber (31:23):
Thank you so much you.
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