January 21, 2025 • 49 mins
Are you nurturing and advocating for yourself? In this episode, I talk with Nadine Pinede about dimming your inner critic to a whisper and:
• Learning to advocate for yourself when you have an invisible illness and/or are a person of color
• Soothing pain and discomfort through MBSR (Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction) and Self-Compassion practices
• Seeing yourself and others for who they truly are, not the groups they belong to
• Channeling grief and pain into creativity and writing
• Slowing down to see how everything is connected
Nadine is the daughter of Haitian exiles who were forced to leave their homeland because of a dictatorship. Her mother was no doubt sharing enthralling tales of Haitian history and family lore when Nadine was in the womb. Nadine is an author, poet, editor, educator, and translator who created her own interdisciplinary major at Harvard and then continued on to Oxford on a Rhodes Scholarship. She also has an MFA in fiction and poetry and holds a PhD from Indiana University. Nadine’s upcoming debut novel from Candlewick Press, When the Mapou Sings, is dedicated to her first storyteller, her mother, who encouraged her to write her own stories.
Keep in touch with Nadine:
• Website: https://nadinepinede.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nadinepinede
Resources Mentioned:
• When the Mapou Sings by Nadine Pinede: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9781536235661
• Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) for Pain: https://www.ummhealth.org/umass-memorial-medical-center/mindfulness-managing-pain-introduction
• Fierce Self-Compassion by Kristin Neff, Ph.D.: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9780062991065
• Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9780060838676
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nadine Pinede (00:00):
And then, when you can or when you feel
comfortable enough to the fierceself-compassion, is really
standing up and finding yourvoice and finding ways to
perhaps change how we are beingheard or not heard, how we're
being seen or not seen are notseen.
April Snow (00:34):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withNadine Paned about using
(00:57):
self-compassion to advocate foryourself as an HSP when you have
an invisible illness or are aperson of color, channeling
grief and pain into creativityand writing, and seeing yourself
and others for who they trulyare, not the groups they belong
to.
Nadine is the daughter ofHaitian exiles who were forced
(01:17):
to leave their homeland becauseof dictatorship.
Her mother was no doubt sharingenthralling tales of Haitian
history and family lore whenNadine was in the womb.
Nadine is an author, poet,editor, educator and translator
who created her owninterdisciplinary major at
Harvard and then continued on toOxford on a Rhodes scholarship.
(01:38):
She also has an MFA in fictionand poetry and holds a PhD from
Indiana University.
Nadine's upcoming debut novelfrom Candlewick Press, when the
Mapu Sings, is dedicated to herfirst storyteller, her mother,
who encouraged her to write herown stories For more HSP
(01:59):
resources and to seebehind-the-scenes video from the
podcast, join me on Instagram,tiktok or YouTube at Sensitive
Strengths or sign up for myemail list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
(02:20):
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in.
Okay.
So, nadine, could you start offby telling us your HSP
(02:47):
discovery story?
Nadine Pinede (02:52):
how or when you realized that you're a highly
sensitive person?
Oh, that's such a good questionand I wish I could pinpoint and
say there was a moment.
It wasn't a moment, it wasreactions by others that told me
, especially by my mother.
So what would happen is thatwhen we moved from Canada to the
(03:13):
US and my parents were born andraised in Haiti, studied in
Paris where I was born, andbecause of the dictatorship,
they couldn't return to Haiti,and because of the dictatorship,
they couldn't return to Haiti.
So we were immigrants in Canadafirst, and that's where I
learned English, and then in theUS.
So we lived in an area justoutside of New York and in
(03:38):
Connecticut and at that timethere was a lot of blaming of
AIDS on Haitians and in fact,the Red Cross did not let
Haitians donate blood because ofthat.
So there was a lot of bullyingthat went on, and my brother
handled it through humor thatwas his way of doing it but I,
(04:02):
being the sensitive person thatI was, would go home and tell my
mother and I'd be very upset.
The words would remain with me,the emotions it felt as if it
was sinking into the core of mybeing and my mother would say
don't be so sensitive.
There are going to be peoplelike that in the world and they
(04:23):
are ignorant.
And your past and she hadtaught us all about Haiti and
all about Haiti's history.
So we felt pride in beingHaitian, but being insulted and
being mocked and taunted, itstayed with me and it was my
mother's reaction that made merealize, oh wait, yeah, it's
staying with me, but it doesn'tstay with them in the same way.
(04:46):
Somehow they're able to shakeit off or whatever, and I'm not
like that.
So I realized I was a littlemore like my father, who it's
hard to be a sensitive man inany culture.
But I realized because the wayhe listened to music, the way he
(05:07):
took in a sunset, the way heappreciated beauty, there was a
sensitivity to him that heprobably had to hide.
So I learned about being highlysensitive by having someone
tell me that it's not good,about being highly sensitive, by
(05:27):
having someone tell me thatit's not good.
And I think a lot of peoplehave had that experience, at
first thinking this is a flaw,and for many years I thought of
that as a flaw, until well intoliving and really having
experience and when I startedwriting poetry, more poetry
because I always wrote poetry.
But when I really turned towriting poetry I started to see
(05:48):
it as my secret superpower.
April Snow (05:51):
Your secret superpower?
Yeah, it is true that we oftenfind our sensitivity in relation
to others and usually it's inthat criticism of the
sensitivity or needing to tuckit away, sometimes for safety,
right?
Yes, that criticism of thesensitivity, or needing to tuck
it away, sometimes for safety,right?
Nadine Pinede (06:06):
Yes, right, and I understand that too because,
also culturally, I recall anexperience where I was working
and I was with a group ofHaitian farmers and we were
helping them get funding for asustainability project and as I
was describing or translating ordoing something I was
describing or translating ordoing something I just started
crying and the person said well,you know you're crying, but
(06:34):
we're the ones who should becrying.
I just thought I am not cut outfor this work Because, again,
like my mother is an examplethat I keep bringing up because
she did very difficult work withhomeless, with children, women
who needed help, and she wouldnot cry hearing someone's story.
She would be able to holdeverything in and find a
solution, but I would cry and soI thought, okay, there it is,
(06:58):
that sensitivity.
April Snow (07:01):
You had more to hold in right.
Yes, yes, yes.
Nadine Pinede (07:04):
That's true.
But yeah, I realized that thereare certain kinds of work that,
even though I think it's greatwork to do in the world, it's
not matched to my temperament,and that was a big thing to
discover, and I didn't discoverthat until my 30s.
April Snow (07:22):
Were you doing work at the time where you realized
this is not sustainable?
Yeah, exactly.
Nadine Pinede (07:26):
It was that work of.
I was helping match grantmakers with organizations that
were grassroots, that werededicated to the environment, to
sustainability.
So I loved the actual work thatI was doing, but a lot of it
was work where you would findyourself in these situations
(07:49):
facing very difficult stories.
And also I didn't know at thetime that I had several what we
could call now invisibledisabilities.
I didn't know that I hadendometriosis, I didn't know
that I had fibromyalgia and Ididn't know that I had
Ehlers-Danlos syndrome.
So there was a lot of paingoing on and I didn't realize
(08:11):
the reasons for it.
So, on top of the sensitivity,there were chronic pain
conditions.
April Snow (08:17):
Yes, right, and feeling those, I imagine such a
deep level and still needing topersevere and all those things.
Endodermatosis, ehlers-danlos,fibromyalgia a lot of folks tend
to have these invisibleillnesses and are suffering
greatly.
I have seen that.
You know how happy.
Nadine Pinede (08:36):
I was that Michelle Obama mentioned
menstrual cramps in her speech.
It was just yes, thank you fornaming things that we usually do
not want to name in public orfeel ashamed of, and I remember
being 13, thinking this is sopainful, but when I shared it
with my mother she said well,that's normal, it'll get better.
(08:58):
You know that kind of thing.
I just didn't.
It didn't get better.
So you know and remainundiagnosed for a long time, and
again that's something thathappens to many women, but
especially women of color.
April Snow (09:12):
Exactly yes, right, suffering and silence.
Nadine Pinede (09:15):
Or if you know the famous Zora Neale Hurston
quote if you're in pain but youstay silent, they'll kill you
and say you enjoyed it.
Yes, yes, that's a very that'sa quote.
That hits me, you know, becauseit's so powerful?
Yeah, it is powerful andthinking about her life and the
(09:36):
example she was.
That's something that I'velearned not to stay silent, but
in the past I would try to bevery stoic and I didn't describe
what was painful.
I internalized it and thatprobably amplified the pain.
April Snow (09:52):
Absolutely Right.
It starts to compound, youdon't?
Ever get a release, physicallyor emotionally.
So there's a lot that you wereholding within yourself, whether
was your pain, your emotions,even the strengths of your
sensitivity.
It's a lot to hold.
How did you start to switchinto expressing?
(10:13):
You know, it sounds like thereare some switches that you made.
Where you were, you found yourvoice and you stepped more into
what was aligned.
How did you start to make thatswitch?
Nadine Pinede (10:22):
It's interesting.
I think I made that switch justfrom being tired of hearing
doctors tell me that.
It was all in my head, you know, there came a moment and I
remember reading Elaine Skye thephilosopher, and she talked
about other people's pain beingvery unreachable to most of us.
(10:45):
So when other people aredescribing pain, we as a whole
don't necessarily take that asseriously as our own pain.
So I thought I've been to somany doctors.
I had a kind of dossier, yousay file that was maybe 200
pages of just trying to figureout the mystery of what was
(11:06):
going on.
But there was a point where Ithink it was a rheumatologist
said something and I said no, Iknow, it's not all in my head.
This is something that maybe youcan't help me, but I am going
to find a way to deal with this.
And it was after several verydifficult surgeries to deal with
the endometriosis.
(11:26):
So, yeah, it was after thatthat I really read more, I
started to understand more aboutthat and also, fibromyalgia
made me understand my body more.
You know, there's nothing likechronic pain to make you look
into and try to understand howit functions, how the mind
(11:48):
influences the body.
So all of it again it turned meinto.
You know, I want to learn andfrom the learning I feel like I
have a voice.
April Snow (11:59):
Yes, you find your voice in that.
Yes, you have to be your ownadvocate.
Yes, yes, you find your voicein that.
Yes, you have to be your ownadvocate.
Yes, especially as a woman,especially as a person of color,
especially as a sensitiveperson who feels differently.
Yeah, and you hit a limit,especially with pain.
Right, you can't tolerate thatfor so long.
Nadine Pinede (12:15):
Well, and there are stories that you know.
I could go on, but there's justit's the summary of it is when
I would go alone to see thisparticular rheumatologist I'm
mentioning because he stands outhe would treat me one way and
he treated my hairdresser, whowas also black, in the same way
(12:37):
Very dismissive, very brusque,very abrupt, told her that her
lupus was something that shecould never cure, that she
wouldn't be able to manage.
It's just very horrible in hisapproach.
And when my husband came and myhusband is Dutch, so my husband
accompanied me, he's Dutch andwhite suddenly the entire
(12:58):
demeanor of this rheumatologistchanged.
April Snow (13:01):
No surprise.
Nadine Pinede (13:02):
That was all I needed to really feel that
outrage and speak up.
April Snow (13:08):
Yes, was it apparent to you Because I'm sure you
know you've been treated insimilar ways before this doctor,
maybe not as obvious, but wereyou already sensing that he's
treating me differently?
Or was it a wake up call?
Yeah, you already know, Ialready sensed it.
Yeah, yeah, being highlysensitive, yeah, you can sense
it.
Nadine Pinede (13:26):
I just immediately sensed it.
I sensed that the things I wassaying were being dismissed and
that he wasn't really listening,that he had made up his mind
about me.
April Snow (13:38):
That's it.
Isn't it Before hearing?
Nadine Pinede (13:39):
yeah, before fully listening to my story.
April Snow (13:43):
And that was infuriating Well Before fully
listening to my story and thatwas infuriating.
Well, right, I mean, he'streating you differently.
He's not seeing you, the human,the person in front of him,
right yes.
I'm curious to know whathappens next after you have that
appointment where yourhusband's present.
Nadine Pinede (13:59):
Well, what really happened is that, through a
series of decisions to getsecond opinions, to also work
with my OBGYN, who had helped mewith the endometriosis, to work
with a mindfulness therapist todo mindfulness MBSR I did
(14:21):
several sessions of that theeight-week sessions and that
already helped me because ithelped me approach the pain in a
different way.
So before I was blaming myselffor the pain or I was saying
it's something I can't figureout, there's a problem that I'm
not figuring out and thatcompounded it, but just having
(14:45):
the mindful and nonjudgmentalattitude helped a lot.
It really helped me.
It didn't make the pain go away, but it made the pain much more
manageable, especially on theworst days.
April Snow (15:02):
Yes, yeah, MBSR is great for pain relief or pain
management.
I should say yes, it helps.
Nadine Pinede (15:09):
It helped me a lot, so that's part of it.
You know, just having that,having other tools that you can
turn to and, more recently,self-compassion, the work of
Christine Neff, exactly.
Yes, that has really helped me alot Because self compassion
isn't necessarily a part ofmindfulness based stress
(15:30):
reduction.
It's a small part of it, butwhat she's done is taken it and
really talked about specificallyhow it can affect women's lives
, and she talks about fierceself-compassion and tender
self-compassion and the need forboth and when you need one and
(15:51):
when you need the other.
So the more I read about it, Iactually did an intensive course
with her and with Chris Germerand that was in the Netherlands,
and doing that week helped meimmensely.
It really helped me have thetool of self-compassion.
Before the tool was mindfulnessand it's still that, but
(16:12):
self-compassion added anotherelement that's helped me also as
a writer trying to be creative.
Yes, I want to.
April Snow (16:19):
there's a few layers here that are coming up.
One I want to.
There's a few layers here thatare coming up.
One we haven't talked aboutfears versus kind
self-compassion on the podcastyet.
Do you have an example in yourown life of how you
differentiate those two?
Yes, yes, I'd love to hear.
Nadine Pinede (16:36):
So one is is the tender self-compassion would be
turning toward the pain andsaying so, this is what this
pain feels like.
So you're acknowledging thepain and really, if you can,
(16:56):
locating it within the body andsaying so, this is what this
pain feels like.
So the second step is sayingI'm not alone in feeling this
kind of pain, I'm not the onlyperson who has felt this At this
moment.
I'm not alone in this.
And the third part of it issaying what can I do?
(17:19):
What small step can I take tohelp comfort myself at this
moment with this kind of pain?
So that's tenderself-compassion, yeah, and she
calls that the mother energy,but it can be called many things
.
And when I think of it in termsof creatives, I think of how
(17:40):
Frida Kahlo looked at her painand was able to transform and
metabolize that into paintingsthat spoke to other people, but
she turned toward her pain andreally she told the truth about
it, if you want.
So you need tenderself-compassion Just to get
through a lot.
(18:01):
Sure you need tenderself-compassion just to get
through a lot.
So I would say that's the basicone that I used before even
learning about fearself-compassion, because that's
something that Professor Neffhas just introduced and talked
about in her most recent book,so that she calls the mama bear.
So she has a graphic and I'veused this graphic.
(18:23):
So the first is kind of thehugging bear and the second is
the bear sort of growling in aprotective way and holding the
little cubs under her arm andit's a kind of compassion.
It's still self-compassionbecause you're caring for
yourself, but what you're alsodoing is providing, if need be,
(18:47):
advocating, standing up andhaving that extra step, that
sometimes it's that extra step,for example, of saying to the
rheumatologist well, you know, Inoticed that you treat me
(19:10):
differently when my husband isaround and I'd like to know what
that's about.
Yeah, that was self-compassion.
I would call it fierceself-compassion, even if it's
said politely.
So there's the tenderself-compassion, even if it's
said politely.
So there's the tenderself-compassion that is maybe
the first step for a lot ofpeople.
And then, when you can or whenyou feel comfortable enough to
(19:34):
the fierce self-compassion isreally standing up and finding
your voice and finding ways toperhaps change how we are being
heard or not heard, how we'rebeing seen or not seen.
April Snow (19:49):
So taking care of self personally, but then also
advocating out in the worldAbsolutely.
And at first I was like, oh,how does this connect to writing
?
But I could see it.
I want to hear more about thatyou know pain is fuel for
writing and finding your voice.
Yeah, I want to hear more abouthow this compassion practice
fuels your writing.
Nadine Pinede (20:08):
Yes, the self-compassion for any creative
activity, but especially forwriting, where perfectionism is
often your enemy.
So the inner critic in manypeople who write is such a loud
voice and it's constant, youknow, and if you ever want to
(20:32):
finish a book or a long project,it will at some point be devil
you, you know, it's just goingto be there.
And so the self-compassion is arealization that that's part of
the creative process, thatpeople face perfectionism and
you're not alone in having toface it, but that you can dim
(20:55):
that sound, that inner critic,until it's barely a whisper and
then continue doing what you'redoing.
And that's especially importantwhen you're in a difficult
project and where you start todoubt the value of it.
So, for example, in a novel Icould get to the point where I
(21:15):
thought, okay, this is great.
But when my mother passed away,I had a lot of trouble
returning to the writing.
And that's where I had toreally exercise a lot of
self-compassion and say this iswhat this feels like, this is
what the grieving process holdsfor me.
April Snow (21:41):
And this is how writing is going to help me in
this particular journey.
Nadine Pinede (21:43):
Yeah, just kind of unfold into those emotions,
but not get caught up in theparticulars and it need to be
perfect, but just lettingyourself be yes, and also
letting it go through and movethrough my body, because that
was another part that when griefis that strong as we people who
experienced that, it almostfelt crippling, like it knots me
(22:05):
to my knees, and there weredays I could not get out of bed.
April Snow (22:10):
It was very difficult it's a big loss to to
process and to groove through.
Nadine Pinede (22:16):
Yes, yeah she inspired my novel.
I just wanted to say that Iwant to hear.
April Snow (22:22):
Yes, so that so you were able.
You talked about finding yourvoice and using the pain as fuel
, and it sounds like you didthat here as well, with the
grieving of your mother not justyour physical pain, but your
emotional pain, and I would loveto hear more about your newest
book, when the map, it's myfirst novel.
Nadine Pinede (22:40):
Yes, when the map .
It's my first novel.
Yes, when the mapu sings.
So you know it's my debut novel.
And the funny thing is that youcan write a debut novel at any
age.
Some people think, oh, you haveto be in your 20s to be a debut
novelist.
No, you have something to sayat any age.
But the process of writing anovel is one that you learn as
(23:05):
you write and you change as aperson as you're writing the
novel.
So it's almost like the novelis teaching you how to be in the
world, and that's the magicalpart of it, the part of it that
I didn't expect.
So I expected it to bedifficult.
I thought, okay, I'm trying tocarry this story, and I'm trying
(23:25):
to.
It's in poems, by the way, soit's a novel in verse.
So it wasn't difficult enoughfor it to be a novel.
I have to make it in poems.
You know that added challenge.
I loved it, but then, as I wasgetting into it, I was like what
am I doing?
This is you know why did Ithink this was a good idea, and
the more I did it, the more,especially during revision, I
(23:50):
noticed that the novel wasteaching me, and that is a
wonderful moment in any HSP, anyperson doing creative work,
when your work is teaching yousomething that's so beautiful.
April Snow (24:04):
Yeah, it's just kind of this cycle of feeding each
other.
You're feeding the novel thenovel's feeding you.
Yes, it is.
Writing is a teacher, that's agood way to put it.
Nadine Pinede (24:13):
Yeah, yes, the nurturing.
You know you're nurturing this.
I see it as a plant.
I mean, there are lots ofmetaphors you can use, but when
I didn't nurture my plant it waskind of saggy, but it was still
there.
It was like give me a littlebit of water and I'll be fine.
And so I was able to return andnurture and then just that,
(24:34):
back and forth, I started to seethings differently and I also
started to appreciate thequality of patience and the
quality of stamina.
But the self-compassion cameback as a tool and in every way,
as you're finishing a bigproject, you have to exercise.
(24:55):
Or maybe it's unconscious, butself-compassion will help you
get that project finished.
April Snow (25:01):
Absolutely.
It really kind of softens thoseperfectionistic tendencies, and
that's it.
Nadine Pinede (25:08):
And not just that , it's the perfectionist
tendencies.
But then the inner criticbecomes sort of anticipatory
criticism.
April Snow (25:17):
Do you know what I?
Nadine Pinede (25:17):
mean People are going to hate this.
They're going to think thisbook is, you know, too long and
boring, like all those voiceswere in my head as I approached
the end of the novel.
But I just thought, okay, I'msure other people have thought
this.
This is not the first time thatthis is going to happen.
(25:38):
It won't be the last time, butthis is a story I feel only I
can write, and I'm going to keepwriting it until I finish it.
April Snow (25:46):
Yeah, it's such a big hurdle to get through of
anticipating that criticism andthen softening it right Bringing
that universal human experience.
Everyone goes through this whenthey create something put out
in the world Absolutely.
Nadine Pinede (25:59):
And if you don't, then either people are lying to
you.
You know they're very powerfuland they're lying to you, right,
exactly.
April Snow (26:09):
But yes, could you share a little bit more about
the story that unfolded in thisbook?
Nadine Pinede (26:15):
Yes, so the story is really based on three
sources, and the first would bethe stories that my mother
shared with me about mygreat-grandmother, and she lived
during the American occupationof Haiti.
That was from 1915 to 1934.
(26:35):
So my mother's stories of mygreat-grandmother were just
incredible stories of a womanwho was independent and dynamic
and wanted to do things her wayand way ahead of her time and
the trouble sometimes she wouldget into, but also how she would
(26:57):
get out of that kind of trouble.
So it was the good trouble thatTron Lewis spoke about.
So that was one source.
The second source was a mysteryabout Zora Neale Hurston
herself, because when she wentto Haiti, all of her fieldwork
the notebooks whereanthropologists record their
(27:18):
work those don't exist for hertime in Haiti.
No one knows where they are.
We don't know if they weredestroyed after her death
because some papers you knowwere missing from her house.
She was in a rental, someonewas moving things, someone was
starting to burn papers and aneighbor came by and said no,
(27:40):
you can't do that.
You know, the person who livedhere was a writer and took those
papers and salvaged them.
So if someone knows whereZora's notebook from Haiti is,
please let me know.
But I looked and I contactedbiographers, specialists,
everyone.
No one had the answer.
So what I had was a handful ofletters from Zora, especially to
(28:06):
the Guggenheim Foundation,because she had a fellowship and
they were sponsoring went toHaiti in the fall of 1936.
And that's the setting, a lotof the setting for my novel.
(28:27):
But there's Lucille's lifebefore that.
But Lucille goes to work forZora Neale Hurston.
So the mystery of what happenedto Zora was another source for
this novel.
I wanted to know because when agap exists, the imagination
wants to fill it.
April Snow (28:45):
Absolutely, and it does.
Nadine Pinede (28:48):
The third source was my firsthand experience with
activists in Haiti, soespecially one who was later
awarded the GoldmanEnvironmental Prize for his work
on behalf of small farmers andagainst the kind of land grab
(29:10):
and the kind of subsidizedimports that were hurting people
who were trying to really justfind dignified ways of making
their way in the world, and hestood up to the forces that were
against that.
So I had the honor of watchinghis work and going to the 30th
(29:34):
anniversary of the Papai PeasantMovement, which is the name of
the group that he led, and inthat time watching him, I
thought what I saw would comeout in nonfiction.
So I did write an essay aboutthis, but then I started to
realize, no, I'm also interestedin Zora's time and no one knows
(29:59):
anything about that.
And Zora mentioned in herepigraph to her book on Haiti
that there was a Haitian womannamed Lucille who helped her and
who she loved and who was adear friend.
And I thought, okay, I want toknow about Lucille.
I couldn't find anything onLucille, there was no
(30:19):
information.
So the real Lucille became sortof an inspiration, because
nothing is documented about herlife, and I thought of my
great-grandmother and I thoughtof her being Lucille and that's
how it came apart, that's howthe book came together and, of
(30:41):
course, with the qualities ofthis activist and others who
also worked and who were behindthe scenes, because not everyone
you know, obviously, is leading.
They were in the back and theywould make these salads that
(31:06):
were beautiful and elaborate andthe salad would have a peace
sign made out of beets orsomething there would be some
visual element to the salad.
So I wanted to go back and findthe person doing this and say
thank you for doing this.
And I couldn't find her.
And it was the same thing, youknow I couldn't find her.
And it was the same thing, youknow I couldn't find any
information about Lucille.
I couldn't find what happenedto Zora in this time, and I was
(31:28):
finding myself dedicated to sortof imagining what these lost or
untold stories would be.
And that's how it came about,really.
April Snow (31:38):
It's so beautiful that you're able to weave these
pieces together based on yourown roots.
You're of yourgreat-grandmother and then these
other figures who were doing areally important work in Haiti.
But yes sadly, but notsurprisingly, their stories,
their, their writing, theirmaterials have been lost.
It's yes, yes, and you're atleast imagine what their lives
(32:01):
could have been or what theirstories could have been, to
preserve their name.
Nadine Pinede (32:04):
Absolutely.
And the key to that is torealize that Zora Neale Hurston
is very well known for herwriting and she wrote their Eyes
Were Watching God when she wasin Haiti.
So she wrote her masterpiece inHaiti Haiti.
(32:26):
So she wrote her masterpiece inHaiti.
She started her memoir in Haitiand she wrote a beautiful
hybrid book about anthropology,but from a completely different
point of view.
In Haiti she started all ofthat, so it was one of her most
creative periods in her life,partly because she had a
fellowship.
So you know Virginia Woolf'sRoom of One's Own.
She had that.
Plus she had Lucille helpingher.
(32:48):
So in my mind, I thought ofLucille as more than a domestic.
Lucille became a friend andLucille was almost helping.
And in the research, she washelping Zora navigate some
pretty dangerous situations.
So that's how I imagined it andthere's no way of testing that
(33:09):
because we don't have thatinformation, but it just got me
started and kept me going.
It sounds like it was a bigsource of inspiration for you to
imagine her contributions,Because I'm sure there were many
as many women who work in thoseroles Exactly, and it's like
saying thank you to a youngwoman who made something
(33:32):
beautiful for a salad for agroup of people and not being
able to find that person.
My mother's stories of mygreat-grandmother.
I thought she was a marketwoman and she created beautiful
things.
Sometimes they were littledresses, sometimes they were
carvings, so she would sell herown things that she created.
(33:56):
So my Lucille is a carver andthat's her way of expressing her
creativity, and I also imaginedher as an HSP, though I don't
say that she, to me, has thatquality.
April Snow (34:10):
I was thinking that because she's finding these
subtle but powerful ways toexpress her voice and her
message.
I mean, it's such a reminderfor us, even present day day, to
how can we find those ways toexpress and advocate and I think
too in creating fiction.
Nadine Pinede (34:30):
So, because this is not autobiographical, a lot
of people, when they write thefirst novel, it's
autobiographical, so everyonesays, ah, did this really happen
to you?
And which part is true, which,which part is not?
In creating this character,what I did was take the
connection she has to thenatural world and the
(34:52):
sensitivity she has to it, andturn it into a situation where
she can hear the Mapu tree,which is the tree that's on the
cover of the book, and it's asacred tree within Haitian
culture, and she can hear itsinging, so that there is this
(35:14):
connection to the natural worldthat is much closer than most
people would have.
And then she also has dreamsthat are sometimes prescient.
So some people would say, okay,that is magical realism.
Other people would say, no,that's just someone who is
(35:34):
connected to her own highlyattuned awareness of the world,
paying attention, no-transcript,but also a warrior, an
enchanted character.
At the same time, she's aneco-feminist warrior.
April Snow (35:57):
She's so powerful in how she shows up and how she
supports Zora.
But yeah, there's all thesesubtle layers of sensitivity,
connection to the natural world,her dream life, her attunements
.
Yes and the carving, thecarving and just that warrior
right.
Nadine Pinede (36:12):
Thank you that focus on justice, yes, in a
non-obvious way though, yesthat's absolutely true, and also
because I see this novel asbeing about different kinds of
love.
It's the love of the tree, thelove of the memory of a mother
she never knew but feels throughthe tree.
(36:34):
You know, the mother tree, ifyou want.
There's the love of other partsof the natural world.
There's a love of the fatherand daughter, of carving, as an
expressive form of her bestfriend Fafina, of learning, of
the teaching that goes onthrough Sister Gilbert.
There's the love of you knowthe first love, the romantic
(36:57):
love of Orest.
And there's the love ofindependence, of wanting to be
able to be in the marketplaceand have her work sold there and
have independence for money.
There's the love, even betweenher and Zora, that develops.
It didn't start that way.
It starts with mistrust, but inthe.
(37:18):
You know I don't want to spoileralert, I don't want to give the
ending away but you know, it'sa book about different kinds of
love and in the end, of course,it's the love we have for each
other when we don't treat eachother as others and when we
imagine each other's inner livesand take the time to really see
(37:39):
and hear each other yeah, itsounds like such a beautiful
unfolding and building to trust.
April Snow (37:46):
And then how the relationship I mean I imagine,
yes, filters out to others andmakes a big imprint.
Yes, it still is yeah, itstarts.
Nadine Pinede (37:56):
I mean, the point , too, that I wanted to make was
that it starts with theothering, it really does the
other.
You know, the american is thereand the american represents the
occupiers.
So even though zora is a blackwoman, she is still from the
United.
States and Lucille has and istold by other people okay, this
(38:19):
is what Americans are and justdon't trust them.
And Zora's coming in andthinking, okay, is Lucille
someone who's going to help me,or is she actually perhaps
spying on me for people whodon't want me to do this kind of
research?
So there's a lot of intrigue inthat, but it's based on the
(38:41):
othering that's immediate, frombeing fed certain information
and lies about people that wemay meet and confront.
April Snow (38:50):
It's true.
Would it be safe to say they'reothering each other?
Then Absolutely yes, yes, yes.
Nadine Pinede (38:57):
It's funny to you know the word.
When I first heard othering, Ithought, well, I don't know if I
like that, but then I thought Iunderstand it completely, so
I'm going to use it, you know.
But it's a perfectly well-usedverb when it describes that
process where you refuse toaccord someone else the same
(39:20):
kind of you know, whether it'ssensitivity, whether it's
imagination, art, love, richinner life, dreams, whatever it
is you refuse to accord thatindividual the same thing that
you yourself are experiencing.
April Snow (39:36):
Right and put them in a box and really miss the
essence of who they are as anindividual.
Deny the essence.
Deny that there is yes.
Nadine Pinede (39:44):
That's the most extreme form, is when you deny
that there is even an individualand it's simply a group.
It's almost like a facelessgroup, and that can happen very
easily oh, very easily.
April Snow (39:59):
Yeah, yes, instantly .
And so then these two women,they get to really know each
other and yes and go throughthings, but, yes, don't want to
give away the end.
Nadine Pinede (40:11):
That's right, right we?
April Snow (40:12):
want folks to read.
I, I can't wait to read thisbook.
Oh good, I know it's not mystory, but there's things that
you're saying that I can relateto so deeply and I think a lot
of sensitive folks will.
Nadine Pinede (40:22):
Whether whatever the background is, absolutely.
April Snow (40:27):
And I can tell this is clearly deeply personal to
you and sounds like part offinding your own voice is
telling the story.
Nadine Pinede (40:35):
Absolutely.
And also finding my own voiceand finding, because I did so
much research, that there was apoint where I had to say to
myself it's okay to unshackleyourself from the facts.
You know, this is not history.
April Snow (40:52):
You are not trying to write.
Nadine Pinede (40:54):
You can let yourself go.
And when I started to do that,I enjoyed the process so much
more and I like using elementsfrom all the senses when I write
, but I felt like I could fillin so much more the scent of
something, the taste ofsomething, how something feels,
and that became very importantto the poems that make up this
(41:18):
novel.
So someone said to me there isa lot of food in there.
I said, good, and you notice it, yes, or you smell something.
I want you to feel that you areinhabiting the world fully and
all your senses are involved.
April Snow (41:36):
And we wouldn't think about a book being a fully
sensory experience.
But you're actually it couldevoke all of those pieces.
I love it.
Nadine Pinede (41:45):
That's what you try, that's what I try to do.
So I hope in some.
You know, if I manage in a fewpoems to do that, I'll pat
myself on the back as you'rewriting the poem, and for any
poet, the struggle is to findthat balance between finding the
right words.
But it's a novel, so you'realso keeping the story moving
(42:07):
forward.
So these two things areintention.
One is slow down and find thatright word and let someone savor
it, and the next is makesomeone want to read the next
poem so that they find out okaywhat's going on Keeping that
movement.
So it was a challenge.
(42:27):
I enjoyed it, but that it's noteasy to do.
April Snow (42:32):
Not easy at all, but I can tell you put so much care
into the reader's experienceand helping them kind of go on
the journey with you, well, yeah, thank you, that's what I I
felt, and you know, in the sameway, that my mother was a great
storyteller.
Nadine Pinede (42:48):
she was my first and best storyteller.
What I would try to do isimagine the way that she,
especially in certain poems, theway that she would tell this,
and it just would.
It flowed from there.
Sometimes, you know, sometimesit didn't, but sometimes it did.
April Snow (43:09):
I appreciate how your mother is the through line
in our conversation today.
Yes, she is it line in ourconversation today.
Yes, she is.
It's really beautiful.
Nadine Pinede (43:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's very powerful and dedicating the
novel to her, especiallybecause she so believed in me
and my ability to do it.
And there were years that Ijust couldn't turn to the novel
because of health thingsespecially, but also other, you
(43:39):
know, just financial reasons.
But she always believed that Iwould do it and that I could do
it.
And my father too both of myparents, but in this case,
because it's mainly my mother'sstories yes, yeah, you've
carried them on.
April Snow (43:54):
It's really good.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, nadine, before we wrap up, I'm wondering if there's a
message you could leave our HSBlisteners with.
What would that be?
Nadine Pinede (44:05):
Absolutely.
It comes from a poet.
Her name is Jane Hirschfeld.
I don't know if you know herwork.
Her name is Jane Hirschfeld.
(44:39):
I don't know if you know herwork.
She's, I guess, studied as aBuddhist which just writes the
most amazing poetry and I hadthe good fortune to be in a
workshop with her and the firstthing she told us we thought she
was going to talk about sometechnical aspect of poetry, and
no, she told us to slow down,pay attention and see how
everything is connected, and Ilove that.
So, especially in moments ofpain or fear and overwhelm that
can happen.
I try to remember those wordsand that would be the advice, if
you know, if we can call thatadvice, I guess.
(45:00):
Yeah, but sharing those wordsand then also practice
self-compassion, yes absolutely.
Learn about it, practice it.
April Snow (45:11):
I think it's such an essential practice for every
sensitive person for every human, really, yes, yes, but even
more so.
Yeah, for us sensitives.
Nadine Pinede (45:20):
Yes.
April Snow (45:21):
And I think we are so suited to that.
We absolutely need to slow downas sensitive people.
But yeah, we are so gifted atseeing the interconnection of
life and everything in it.
Yes, let's take a moment, butthen the people pleasing, you
know, can come out too.
Nadine Pinede (45:36):
It's in the way, can get in the way, and then the
perfectionism and peoplepleasing are often closely
related.
I've noticed that I'll speakfor myself in that, so that was
something else that I had to letgo and say this won't please
everyone.
This is a story that somepeople won't feel is of interest
to them, and that's okay.
(45:57):
That's okay.
It's as if I had a restaurantand I have 10 tables, and if you
don't like my cooking, that'sall right, it's okay.
April Snow (46:04):
There are a lot of other restaurants.
Nadine Pinede (46:06):
There are other places.
I understand we have differenttastes.
It's fine, exactly, but thattook a while to get there.
April Snow (46:14):
It does.
It's definitely a process, yeah, but when you allow yourself to
be who you are, you get towrite books like when the Map is
Seeing.
So this deeply immersive storythat's going to be really
impactful for the right person,oh thank you and I think for a
lot of sensitive people.
Nadine Pinede (46:30):
Yeah, I hope so, because it's it helped me.
It actually helped me becomethe kind of person who could
finish that novel.
Yes, and yeah.
April Snow (46:42):
And here you are, on the other side.
Nadine Pinede (46:44):
The other side.
There's a lot to do on theother side.
I didn't know that, but thereis there's more.
Well.
April Snow (46:54):
Nadine, thank you so much for this beautiful
conversation.
Nadine Pinede (46:57):
I really appreciate everything that you
share with us and letting usinto your writing journey and
into your life story a bit and Iwill definitely be sharing your
book and your other resourcesfor folks and thank you for what
you're doing and for yourpodcast and for just creating
space and creating ways that wefeel more empowered.
April Snow (47:22):
It's really important.
Nadine Pinede (47:23):
Thank you.
April Snow (47:24):
Thank you so much.
Thanks so much for joining meand Nadine for today's
conversation.
What I hope you'll remember ishow important it is to slow down
and nurture what's mostimportant to you, to find your
(47:45):
voice and to tell your story.
You can find Nadine's new bookwhen the Mapu Sings at the link
in the show notes or whereveryou find your books.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
(48:05):
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSP resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
Strengths on Instagram, tiktokand YouTube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
And then, when you can or when you feel
comfortable enough to the fierceself-compassion, is really
standing up and finding yourvoice and finding ways to
perhaps change how we are beingheard or not heard, how we're
being seen or not seen are notseen.
April Snow (00:34):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withNadine Paned about using
(00:57):
self-compassion to advocate foryourself as an HSP when you have
an invisible illness or are aperson of color, channeling
grief and pain into creativityand writing, and seeing yourself
and others for who they trulyare, not the groups they belong
to.
Nadine is the daughter ofHaitian exiles who were forced
(01:17):
to leave their homeland becauseof dictatorship.
Her mother was no doubt sharingenthralling tales of Haitian
history and family lore whenNadine was in the womb.
Nadine is an author, poet,editor, educator and translator
who created her owninterdisciplinary major at
Harvard and then continued on toOxford on a Rhodes scholarship.
(01:38):
She also has an MFA in fictionand poetry and holds a PhD from
Indiana University.
Nadine's upcoming debut novelfrom Candlewick Press, when the
Mapu Sings, is dedicated to herfirst storyteller, her mother,
who encouraged her to write herown stories For more HSP
(01:59):
resources and to seebehind-the-scenes video from the
podcast, join me on Instagram,tiktok or YouTube at Sensitive
Strengths or sign up for myemail list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
(02:20):
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in.
Okay.
So, nadine, could you start offby telling us your HSP
(02:47):
discovery story?
Nadine Pinede (02:52):
how or when you realized that you're a highly
sensitive person?
Oh, that's such a good questionand I wish I could pinpoint and
say there was a moment.
It wasn't a moment, it wasreactions by others that told me
, especially by my mother.
So what would happen is thatwhen we moved from Canada to the
(03:13):
US and my parents were born andraised in Haiti, studied in
Paris where I was born, andbecause of the dictatorship,
they couldn't return to Haiti,and because of the dictatorship,
they couldn't return to Haiti.
So we were immigrants in Canadafirst, and that's where I
learned English, and then in theUS.
So we lived in an area justoutside of New York and in
(03:38):
Connecticut and at that timethere was a lot of blaming of
AIDS on Haitians and in fact,the Red Cross did not let
Haitians donate blood because ofthat.
So there was a lot of bullyingthat went on, and my brother
handled it through humor thatwas his way of doing it but I,
(04:02):
being the sensitive person thatI was, would go home and tell my
mother and I'd be very upset.
The words would remain with me,the emotions it felt as if it
was sinking into the core of mybeing and my mother would say
don't be so sensitive.
There are going to be peoplelike that in the world and they
(04:23):
are ignorant.
And your past and she hadtaught us all about Haiti and
all about Haiti's history.
So we felt pride in beingHaitian, but being insulted and
being mocked and taunted, itstayed with me and it was my
mother's reaction that made merealize, oh wait, yeah, it's
staying with me, but it doesn'tstay with them in the same way.
(04:46):
Somehow they're able to shakeit off or whatever, and I'm not
like that.
So I realized I was a littlemore like my father, who it's
hard to be a sensitive man inany culture.
But I realized because the wayhe listened to music, the way he
(05:07):
took in a sunset, the way heappreciated beauty, there was a
sensitivity to him that heprobably had to hide.
So I learned about being highlysensitive by having someone
tell me that it's not good,about being highly sensitive, by
(05:27):
having someone tell me thatit's not good.
And I think a lot of peoplehave had that experience, at
first thinking this is a flaw,and for many years I thought of
that as a flaw, until well intoliving and really having
experience and when I startedwriting poetry, more poetry
because I always wrote poetry.
But when I really turned towriting poetry I started to see
(05:48):
it as my secret superpower.
April Snow (05:51):
Your secret superpower?
Yeah, it is true that we oftenfind our sensitivity in relation
to others and usually it's inthat criticism of the
sensitivity or needing to tuckit away, sometimes for safety,
right?
Yes, that criticism of thesensitivity, or needing to tuck
it away, sometimes for safety,right?
Nadine Pinede (06:06):
Yes, right, and I understand that too because,
also culturally, I recall anexperience where I was working
and I was with a group ofHaitian farmers and we were
helping them get funding for asustainability project and as I
was describing or translating ordoing something I was
describing or translating ordoing something I just started
crying and the person said well,you know you're crying, but
(06:34):
we're the ones who should becrying.
I just thought I am not cut outfor this work Because, again,
like my mother is an examplethat I keep bringing up because
she did very difficult work withhomeless, with children, women
who needed help, and she wouldnot cry hearing someone's story.
She would be able to holdeverything in and find a
solution, but I would cry and soI thought, okay, there it is,
(06:58):
that sensitivity.
April Snow (07:01):
You had more to hold in right.
Yes, yes, yes.
Nadine Pinede (07:04):
That's true.
But yeah, I realized that thereare certain kinds of work that,
even though I think it's greatwork to do in the world, it's
not matched to my temperament,and that was a big thing to
discover, and I didn't discoverthat until my 30s.
April Snow (07:22):
Were you doing work at the time where you realized
this is not sustainable?
Yeah, exactly.
Nadine Pinede (07:26):
It was that work of.
I was helping match grantmakers with organizations that
were grassroots, that werededicated to the environment, to
sustainability.
So I loved the actual work thatI was doing, but a lot of it
was work where you would findyourself in these situations
(07:49):
facing very difficult stories.
And also I didn't know at thetime that I had several what we
could call now invisibledisabilities.
I didn't know that I hadendometriosis, I didn't know
that I had fibromyalgia and Ididn't know that I had
Ehlers-Danlos syndrome.
So there was a lot of paingoing on and I didn't realize
(08:11):
the reasons for it.
So, on top of the sensitivity,there were chronic pain
conditions.
April Snow (08:17):
Yes, right, and feeling those, I imagine such a
deep level and still needing topersevere and all those things.
Endodermatosis, ehlers-danlos,fibromyalgia a lot of folks tend
to have these invisibleillnesses and are suffering
greatly.
I have seen that.
You know how happy.
Nadine Pinede (08:36):
I was that Michelle Obama mentioned
menstrual cramps in her speech.
It was just yes, thank you fornaming things that we usually do
not want to name in public orfeel ashamed of, and I remember
being 13, thinking this is sopainful, but when I shared it
with my mother she said well,that's normal, it'll get better.
(08:58):
You know that kind of thing.
I just didn't.
It didn't get better.
So you know and remainundiagnosed for a long time, and
again that's something thathappens to many women, but
especially women of color.
April Snow (09:12):
Exactly yes, right, suffering and silence.
Nadine Pinede (09:15):
Or if you know the famous Zora Neale Hurston
quote if you're in pain but youstay silent, they'll kill you
and say you enjoyed it.
Yes, yes, that's a very that'sa quote.
That hits me, you know, becauseit's so powerful?
Yeah, it is powerful andthinking about her life and the
(09:36):
example she was.
That's something that I'velearned not to stay silent, but
in the past I would try to bevery stoic and I didn't describe
what was painful.
I internalized it and thatprobably amplified the pain.
April Snow (09:52):
Absolutely Right.
It starts to compound, youdon't?
Ever get a release, physicallyor emotionally.
So there's a lot that you wereholding within yourself, whether
was your pain, your emotions,even the strengths of your
sensitivity.
It's a lot to hold.
How did you start to switchinto expressing?
(10:13):
You know, it sounds like thereare some switches that you made.
Where you were, you found yourvoice and you stepped more into
what was aligned.
How did you start to make thatswitch?
Nadine Pinede (10:22):
It's interesting.
I think I made that switch justfrom being tired of hearing
doctors tell me that.
It was all in my head, you know, there came a moment and I
remember reading Elaine Skye thephilosopher, and she talked
about other people's pain beingvery unreachable to most of us.
(10:45):
So when other people aredescribing pain, we as a whole
don't necessarily take that asseriously as our own pain.
So I thought I've been to somany doctors.
I had a kind of dossier, yousay file that was maybe 200
pages of just trying to figureout the mystery of what was
(11:06):
going on.
But there was a point where Ithink it was a rheumatologist
said something and I said no, Iknow, it's not all in my head.
This is something that maybe youcan't help me, but I am going
to find a way to deal with this.
And it was after several verydifficult surgeries to deal with
the endometriosis.
(11:26):
So, yeah, it was after thatthat I really read more, I
started to understand more aboutthat and also, fibromyalgia
made me understand my body more.
You know, there's nothing likechronic pain to make you look
into and try to understand howit functions, how the mind
(11:48):
influences the body.
So all of it again it turned meinto.
You know, I want to learn andfrom the learning I feel like I
have a voice.
April Snow (11:59):
Yes, you find your voice in that.
Yes, you have to be your ownadvocate.
Yes, yes, you find your voicein that.
Yes, you have to be your ownadvocate.
Yes, especially as a woman,especially as a person of color,
especially as a sensitiveperson who feels differently.
Yeah, and you hit a limit,especially with pain.
Right, you can't tolerate thatfor so long.
Nadine Pinede (12:15):
Well, and there are stories that you know.
I could go on, but there's justit's the summary of it is when
I would go alone to see thisparticular rheumatologist I'm
mentioning because he stands outhe would treat me one way and
he treated my hairdresser, whowas also black, in the same way
(12:37):
Very dismissive, very brusque,very abrupt, told her that her
lupus was something that shecould never cure, that she
wouldn't be able to manage.
It's just very horrible in hisapproach.
And when my husband came and myhusband is Dutch, so my husband
accompanied me, he's Dutch andwhite suddenly the entire
(12:58):
demeanor of this rheumatologistchanged.
April Snow (13:01):
No surprise.
Nadine Pinede (13:02):
That was all I needed to really feel that
outrage and speak up.
April Snow (13:08):
Yes, was it apparent to you Because I'm sure you
know you've been treated insimilar ways before this doctor,
maybe not as obvious, but wereyou already sensing that he's
treating me differently?
Or was it a wake up call?
Yeah, you already know, Ialready sensed it.
Yeah, yeah, being highlysensitive, yeah, you can sense
it.
Nadine Pinede (13:26):
I just immediately sensed it.
I sensed that the things I wassaying were being dismissed and
that he wasn't really listening,that he had made up his mind
about me.
April Snow (13:38):
That's it.
Isn't it Before hearing?
Nadine Pinede (13:39):
yeah, before fully listening to my story.
April Snow (13:43):
And that was infuriating Well Before fully
listening to my story and thatwas infuriating.
Well, right, I mean, he'streating you differently.
He's not seeing you, the human,the person in front of him,
right yes.
I'm curious to know whathappens next after you have that
appointment where yourhusband's present.
Nadine Pinede (13:59):
Well, what really happened is that, through a
series of decisions to getsecond opinions, to also work
with my OBGYN, who had helped mewith the endometriosis, to work
with a mindfulness therapist todo mindfulness MBSR I did
(14:21):
several sessions of that theeight-week sessions and that
already helped me because ithelped me approach the pain in a
different way.
So before I was blaming myselffor the pain or I was saying
it's something I can't figureout, there's a problem that I'm
not figuring out and thatcompounded it, but just having
(14:45):
the mindful and nonjudgmentalattitude helped a lot.
It really helped me.
It didn't make the pain go away, but it made the pain much more
manageable, especially on theworst days.
April Snow (15:02):
Yes, yeah, MBSR is great for pain relief or pain
management.
I should say yes, it helps.
Nadine Pinede (15:09):
It helped me a lot, so that's part of it.
You know, just having that,having other tools that you can
turn to and, more recently,self-compassion, the work of
Christine Neff, exactly.
Yes, that has really helped me alot Because self compassion
isn't necessarily a part ofmindfulness based stress
(15:30):
reduction.
It's a small part of it, butwhat she's done is taken it and
really talked about specificallyhow it can affect women's lives
, and she talks about fierceself-compassion and tender
self-compassion and the need forboth and when you need one and
(15:51):
when you need the other.
So the more I read about it, Iactually did an intensive course
with her and with Chris Germerand that was in the Netherlands,
and doing that week helped meimmensely.
It really helped me have thetool of self-compassion.
Before the tool was mindfulnessand it's still that, but
(16:12):
self-compassion added anotherelement that's helped me also as
a writer trying to be creative.
Yes, I want to.
April Snow (16:19):
there's a few layers here that are coming up.
One I want to.
There's a few layers here thatare coming up.
One we haven't talked aboutfears versus kind
self-compassion on the podcastyet.
Do you have an example in yourown life of how you
differentiate those two?
Yes, yes, I'd love to hear.
Nadine Pinede (16:36):
So one is is the tender self-compassion would be
turning toward the pain andsaying so, this is what this
pain feels like.
So you're acknowledging thepain and really, if you can,
(16:56):
locating it within the body andsaying so, this is what this
pain feels like.
So the second step is sayingI'm not alone in feeling this
kind of pain, I'm not the onlyperson who has felt this At this
moment.
I'm not alone in this.
And the third part of it issaying what can I do?
(17:19):
What small step can I take tohelp comfort myself at this
moment with this kind of pain?
So that's tenderself-compassion, yeah, and she
calls that the mother energy,but it can be called many things
.
And when I think of it in termsof creatives, I think of how
(17:40):
Frida Kahlo looked at her painand was able to transform and
metabolize that into paintingsthat spoke to other people, but
she turned toward her pain andreally she told the truth about
it, if you want.
So you need tenderself-compassion Just to get
through a lot.
(18:01):
Sure you need tenderself-compassion just to get
through a lot.
So I would say that's the basicone that I used before even
learning about fearself-compassion, because that's
something that Professor Neffhas just introduced and talked
about in her most recent book,so that she calls the mama bear.
So she has a graphic and I'veused this graphic.
(18:23):
So the first is kind of thehugging bear and the second is
the bear sort of growling in aprotective way and holding the
little cubs under her arm andit's a kind of compassion.
It's still self-compassionbecause you're caring for
yourself, but what you're alsodoing is providing, if need be,
(18:47):
advocating, standing up andhaving that extra step, that
sometimes it's that extra step,for example, of saying to the
rheumatologist well, you know, Inoticed that you treat me
(19:10):
differently when my husband isaround and I'd like to know what
that's about.
Yeah, that was self-compassion.
I would call it fierceself-compassion, even if it's
said politely.
So there's the tenderself-compassion, even if it's
said politely.
So there's the tenderself-compassion that is maybe
the first step for a lot ofpeople.
And then, when you can or whenyou feel comfortable enough to
(19:34):
the fierce self-compassion isreally standing up and finding
your voice and finding ways toperhaps change how we are being
heard or not heard, how we'rebeing seen or not seen.
April Snow (19:49):
So taking care of self personally, but then also
advocating out in the worldAbsolutely.
And at first I was like, oh,how does this connect to writing
?
But I could see it.
I want to hear more about thatyou know pain is fuel for
writing and finding your voice.
Yeah, I want to hear more abouthow this compassion practice
fuels your writing.
Nadine Pinede (20:08):
Yes, the self-compassion for any creative
activity, but especially forwriting, where perfectionism is
often your enemy.
So the inner critic in manypeople who write is such a loud
voice and it's constant, youknow, and if you ever want to
(20:32):
finish a book or a long project,it will at some point be devil
you, you know, it's just goingto be there.
And so the self-compassion is arealization that that's part of
the creative process, thatpeople face perfectionism and
you're not alone in having toface it, but that you can dim
(20:55):
that sound, that inner critic,until it's barely a whisper and
then continue doing what you'redoing.
And that's especially importantwhen you're in a difficult
project and where you start todoubt the value of it.
So, for example, in a novel Icould get to the point where I
(21:15):
thought, okay, this is great.
But when my mother passed away,I had a lot of trouble
returning to the writing.
And that's where I had toreally exercise a lot of
self-compassion and say this iswhat this feels like, this is
what the grieving process holdsfor me.
April Snow (21:41):
And this is how writing is going to help me in
this particular journey.
Nadine Pinede (21:43):
Yeah, just kind of unfold into those emotions,
but not get caught up in theparticulars and it need to be
perfect, but just lettingyourself be yes, and also
letting it go through and movethrough my body, because that
was another part that when griefis that strong as we people who
experienced that, it almostfelt crippling, like it knots me
(22:05):
to my knees, and there weredays I could not get out of bed.
April Snow (22:10):
It was very difficult it's a big loss to to
process and to groove through.
Nadine Pinede (22:16):
Yes, yeah she inspired my novel.
I just wanted to say that Iwant to hear.
April Snow (22:22):
Yes, so that so you were able.
You talked about finding yourvoice and using the pain as fuel
, and it sounds like you didthat here as well, with the
grieving of your mother not justyour physical pain, but your
emotional pain, and I would loveto hear more about your newest
book, when the map, it's myfirst novel.
Nadine Pinede (22:40):
Yes, when the map .
It's my first novel.
Yes, when the mapu sings.
So you know it's my debut novel.
And the funny thing is that youcan write a debut novel at any
age.
Some people think, oh, you haveto be in your 20s to be a debut
novelist.
No, you have something to sayat any age.
But the process of writing anovel is one that you learn as
(23:05):
you write and you change as aperson as you're writing the
novel.
So it's almost like the novelis teaching you how to be in the
world, and that's the magicalpart of it, the part of it that
I didn't expect.
So I expected it to bedifficult.
I thought, okay, I'm trying tocarry this story, and I'm trying
(23:25):
to.
It's in poems, by the way, soit's a novel in verse.
So it wasn't difficult enoughfor it to be a novel.
I have to make it in poems.
You know that added challenge.
I loved it, but then, as I wasgetting into it, I was like what
am I doing?
This is you know why did Ithink this was a good idea, and
the more I did it, the more,especially during revision, I
(23:50):
noticed that the novel wasteaching me, and that is a
wonderful moment in any HSP, anyperson doing creative work,
when your work is teaching yousomething that's so beautiful.
April Snow (24:04):
Yeah, it's just kind of this cycle of feeding each
other.
You're feeding the novel thenovel's feeding you.
Yes, it is.
Writing is a teacher, that's agood way to put it.
Nadine Pinede (24:13):
Yeah, yes, the nurturing.
You know you're nurturing this.
I see it as a plant.
I mean, there are lots ofmetaphors you can use, but when
I didn't nurture my plant it waskind of saggy, but it was still
there.
It was like give me a littlebit of water and I'll be fine.
And so I was able to return andnurture and then just that,
(24:34):
back and forth, I started to seethings differently and I also
started to appreciate thequality of patience and the
quality of stamina.
But the self-compassion cameback as a tool and in every way,
as you're finishing a bigproject, you have to exercise.
(24:55):
Or maybe it's unconscious, butself-compassion will help you
get that project finished.
April Snow (25:01):
Absolutely.
It really kind of softens thoseperfectionistic tendencies, and
that's it.
Nadine Pinede (25:08):
And not just that , it's the perfectionist
tendencies.
But then the inner criticbecomes sort of anticipatory
criticism.
April Snow (25:17):
Do you know what I?
Nadine Pinede (25:17):
mean People are going to hate this.
They're going to think thisbook is, you know, too long and
boring, like all those voiceswere in my head as I approached
the end of the novel.
But I just thought, okay, I'msure other people have thought
this.
This is not the first time thatthis is going to happen.
(25:38):
It won't be the last time, butthis is a story I feel only I
can write, and I'm going to keepwriting it until I finish it.
April Snow (25:46):
Yeah, it's such a big hurdle to get through of
anticipating that criticism andthen softening it right Bringing
that universal human experience.
Everyone goes through this whenthey create something put out
in the world Absolutely.
Nadine Pinede (25:59):
And if you don't, then either people are lying to
you.
You know they're very powerfuland they're lying to you, right,
exactly.
April Snow (26:09):
But yes, could you share a little bit more about
the story that unfolded in thisbook?
Nadine Pinede (26:15):
Yes, so the story is really based on three
sources, and the first would bethe stories that my mother
shared with me about mygreat-grandmother, and she lived
during the American occupationof Haiti.
That was from 1915 to 1934.
(26:35):
So my mother's stories of mygreat-grandmother were just
incredible stories of a womanwho was independent and dynamic
and wanted to do things her wayand way ahead of her time and
the trouble sometimes she wouldget into, but also how she would
(26:57):
get out of that kind of trouble.
So it was the good trouble thatTron Lewis spoke about.
So that was one source.
The second source was a mysteryabout Zora Neale Hurston
herself, because when she wentto Haiti, all of her fieldwork
the notebooks whereanthropologists record their
(27:18):
work those don't exist for hertime in Haiti.
No one knows where they are.
We don't know if they weredestroyed after her death
because some papers you knowwere missing from her house.
She was in a rental, someonewas moving things, someone was
starting to burn papers and aneighbor came by and said no,
(27:40):
you can't do that.
You know, the person who livedhere was a writer and took those
papers and salvaged them.
So if someone knows whereZora's notebook from Haiti is,
please let me know.
But I looked and I contactedbiographers, specialists,
everyone.
No one had the answer.
So what I had was a handful ofletters from Zora, especially to
(28:06):
the Guggenheim Foundation,because she had a fellowship and
they were sponsoring went toHaiti in the fall of 1936.
And that's the setting, a lotof the setting for my novel.
(28:27):
But there's Lucille's lifebefore that.
But Lucille goes to work forZora Neale Hurston.
So the mystery of what happenedto Zora was another source for
this novel.
I wanted to know because when agap exists, the imagination
wants to fill it.
April Snow (28:45):
Absolutely, and it does.
Nadine Pinede (28:48):
The third source was my firsthand experience with
activists in Haiti, soespecially one who was later
awarded the GoldmanEnvironmental Prize for his work
on behalf of small farmers andagainst the kind of land grab
(29:10):
and the kind of subsidizedimports that were hurting people
who were trying to really justfind dignified ways of making
their way in the world, and hestood up to the forces that were
against that.
So I had the honor of watchinghis work and going to the 30th
(29:34):
anniversary of the Papai PeasantMovement, which is the name of
the group that he led, and inthat time watching him, I
thought what I saw would comeout in nonfiction.
So I did write an essay aboutthis, but then I started to
realize, no, I'm also interestedin Zora's time and no one knows
(29:59):
anything about that.
And Zora mentioned in herepigraph to her book on Haiti
that there was a Haitian womannamed Lucille who helped her and
who she loved and who was adear friend.
And I thought, okay, I want toknow about Lucille.
I couldn't find anything onLucille, there was no
(30:19):
information.
So the real Lucille became sortof an inspiration, because
nothing is documented about herlife, and I thought of my
great-grandmother and I thoughtof her being Lucille and that's
how it came apart, that's howthe book came together and, of
(30:41):
course, with the qualities ofthis activist and others who
also worked and who were behindthe scenes, because not everyone
you know, obviously, is leading.
They were in the back and theywould make these salads that
(31:06):
were beautiful and elaborate andthe salad would have a peace
sign made out of beets orsomething there would be some
visual element to the salad.
So I wanted to go back and findthe person doing this and say
thank you for doing this.
And I couldn't find her.
And it was the same thing, youknow I couldn't find her.
And it was the same thing, youknow I couldn't find any
information about Lucille.
I couldn't find what happenedto Zora in this time, and I was
(31:28):
finding myself dedicated to sortof imagining what these lost or
untold stories would be.
And that's how it came about,really.
April Snow (31:38):
It's so beautiful that you're able to weave these
pieces together based on yourown roots.
You're of yourgreat-grandmother and then these
other figures who were doing areally important work in Haiti.
But yes sadly, but notsurprisingly, their stories,
their, their writing, theirmaterials have been lost.
It's yes, yes, and you're atleast imagine what their lives
(32:01):
could have been or what theirstories could have been, to
preserve their name.
Nadine Pinede (32:04):
Absolutely.
And the key to that is torealize that Zora Neale Hurston
is very well known for herwriting and she wrote their Eyes
Were Watching God when she wasin Haiti.
So she wrote her masterpiece inHaiti Haiti.
(32:26):
So she wrote her masterpiece inHaiti.
She started her memoir in Haitiand she wrote a beautiful
hybrid book about anthropology,but from a completely different
point of view.
In Haiti she started all ofthat, so it was one of her most
creative periods in her life,partly because she had a
fellowship.
So you know Virginia Woolf'sRoom of One's Own.
She had that.
Plus she had Lucille helpingher.
(32:48):
So in my mind, I thought ofLucille as more than a domestic.
Lucille became a friend andLucille was almost helping.
And in the research, she washelping Zora navigate some
pretty dangerous situations.
So that's how I imagined it andthere's no way of testing that
(33:09):
because we don't have thatinformation, but it just got me
started and kept me going.
It sounds like it was a bigsource of inspiration for you to
imagine her contributions,Because I'm sure there were many
as many women who work in thoseroles Exactly, and it's like
saying thank you to a youngwoman who made something
(33:32):
beautiful for a salad for agroup of people and not being
able to find that person.
My mother's stories of mygreat-grandmother.
I thought she was a marketwoman and she created beautiful
things.
Sometimes they were littledresses, sometimes they were
carvings, so she would sell herown things that she created.
(33:56):
So my Lucille is a carver andthat's her way of expressing her
creativity, and I also imaginedher as an HSP, though I don't
say that she, to me, has thatquality.
April Snow (34:10):
I was thinking that because she's finding these
subtle but powerful ways toexpress her voice and her
message.
I mean, it's such a reminderfor us, even present day day, to
how can we find those ways toexpress and advocate and I think
too in creating fiction.
Nadine Pinede (34:30):
So, because this is not autobiographical, a lot
of people, when they write thefirst novel, it's
autobiographical, so everyonesays, ah, did this really happen
to you?
And which part is true, which,which part is not?
In creating this character,what I did was take the
connection she has to thenatural world and the
(34:52):
sensitivity she has to it, andturn it into a situation where
she can hear the Mapu tree,which is the tree that's on the
cover of the book, and it's asacred tree within Haitian
culture, and she can hear itsinging, so that there is this
(35:14):
connection to the natural worldthat is much closer than most
people would have.
And then she also has dreamsthat are sometimes prescient.
So some people would say, okay,that is magical realism.
Other people would say, no,that's just someone who is
(35:34):
connected to her own highlyattuned awareness of the world,
paying attention, no-transcript,but also a warrior, an
enchanted character.
At the same time, she's aneco-feminist warrior.
April Snow (35:57):
She's so powerful in how she shows up and how she
supports Zora.
But yeah, there's all thesesubtle layers of sensitivity,
connection to the natural world,her dream life, her attunements
.
Yes and the carving, thecarving and just that warrior
right.
Nadine Pinede (36:12):
Thank you that focus on justice, yes, in a
non-obvious way though, yesthat's absolutely true, and also
because I see this novel asbeing about different kinds of
love.
It's the love of the tree, thelove of the memory of a mother
she never knew but feels throughthe tree.
(36:34):
You know, the mother tree, ifyou want.
There's the love of other partsof the natural world.
There's a love of the fatherand daughter, of carving, as an
expressive form of her bestfriend Fafina, of learning, of
the teaching that goes onthrough Sister Gilbert.
There's the love of you knowthe first love, the romantic
(36:57):
love of Orest.
And there's the love ofindependence, of wanting to be
able to be in the marketplaceand have her work sold there and
have independence for money.
There's the love, even betweenher and Zora, that develops.
It didn't start that way.
It starts with mistrust, but inthe.
(37:18):
You know I don't want to spoileralert, I don't want to give the
ending away but you know, it'sa book about different kinds of
love and in the end, of course,it's the love we have for each
other when we don't treat eachother as others and when we
imagine each other's inner livesand take the time to really see
(37:39):
and hear each other yeah, itsounds like such a beautiful
unfolding and building to trust.
April Snow (37:46):
And then how the relationship I mean I imagine,
yes, filters out to others andmakes a big imprint.
Yes, it still is yeah, itstarts.
Nadine Pinede (37:56):
I mean, the point , too, that I wanted to make was
that it starts with theothering, it really does the
other.
You know, the american is thereand the american represents the
occupiers.
So even though zora is a blackwoman, she is still from the
United.
States and Lucille has and istold by other people okay, this
(38:19):
is what Americans are and justdon't trust them.
And Zora's coming in andthinking, okay, is Lucille
someone who's going to help me,or is she actually perhaps
spying on me for people whodon't want me to do this kind of
research?
So there's a lot of intrigue inthat, but it's based on the
(38:41):
othering that's immediate, frombeing fed certain information
and lies about people that wemay meet and confront.
April Snow (38:50):
It's true.
Would it be safe to say they'reothering each other?
Then Absolutely yes, yes, yes.
Nadine Pinede (38:57):
It's funny to you know the word.
When I first heard othering, Ithought, well, I don't know if I
like that, but then I thought Iunderstand it completely, so
I'm going to use it, you know.
But it's a perfectly well-usedverb when it describes that
process where you refuse toaccord someone else the same
(39:20):
kind of you know, whether it'ssensitivity, whether it's
imagination, art, love, richinner life, dreams, whatever it
is you refuse to accord thatindividual the same thing that
you yourself are experiencing.
April Snow (39:36):
Right and put them in a box and really miss the
essence of who they are as anindividual.
Deny the essence.
Deny that there is yes.
Nadine Pinede (39:44):
That's the most extreme form, is when you deny
that there is even an individualand it's simply a group.
It's almost like a facelessgroup, and that can happen very
easily oh, very easily.
April Snow (39:59):
Yeah, yes, instantly .
And so then these two women,they get to really know each
other and yes and go throughthings, but, yes, don't want to
give away the end.
Nadine Pinede (40:11):
That's right, right we?
April Snow (40:12):
want folks to read.
I, I can't wait to read thisbook.
Oh good, I know it's not mystory, but there's things that
you're saying that I can relateto so deeply and I think a lot
of sensitive folks will.
Nadine Pinede (40:22):
Whether whatever the background is, absolutely.
April Snow (40:27):
And I can tell this is clearly deeply personal to
you and sounds like part offinding your own voice is
telling the story.
Nadine Pinede (40:35):
Absolutely.
And also finding my own voiceand finding, because I did so
much research, that there was apoint where I had to say to
myself it's okay to unshackleyourself from the facts.
You know, this is not history.
April Snow (40:52):
You are not trying to write.
Nadine Pinede (40:54):
You can let yourself go.
And when I started to do that,I enjoyed the process so much
more and I like using elementsfrom all the senses when I write
, but I felt like I could fillin so much more the scent of
something, the taste ofsomething, how something feels,
and that became very importantto the poems that make up this
(41:18):
novel.
So someone said to me there isa lot of food in there.
I said, good, and you notice it, yes, or you smell something.
I want you to feel that you areinhabiting the world fully and
all your senses are involved.
April Snow (41:36):
And we wouldn't think about a book being a fully
sensory experience.
But you're actually it couldevoke all of those pieces.
I love it.
Nadine Pinede (41:45):
That's what you try, that's what I try to do.
So I hope in some.
You know, if I manage in a fewpoems to do that, I'll pat
myself on the back as you'rewriting the poem, and for any
poet, the struggle is to findthat balance between finding the
right words.
But it's a novel, so you'realso keeping the story moving
(42:07):
forward.
So these two things areintention.
One is slow down and find thatright word and let someone savor
it, and the next is makesomeone want to read the next
poem so that they find out okaywhat's going on Keeping that
movement.
So it was a challenge.
(42:27):
I enjoyed it, but that it's noteasy to do.
April Snow (42:32):
Not easy at all, but I can tell you put so much care
into the reader's experienceand helping them kind of go on
the journey with you, well, yeah, thank you, that's what I I
felt, and you know, in the sameway, that my mother was a great
storyteller.
Nadine Pinede (42:48):
she was my first and best storyteller.
What I would try to do isimagine the way that she,
especially in certain poems, theway that she would tell this,
and it just would.
It flowed from there.
Sometimes, you know, sometimesit didn't, but sometimes it did.
April Snow (43:09):
I appreciate how your mother is the through line
in our conversation today.
Yes, she is it line in ourconversation today.
Yes, she is.
It's really beautiful.
Nadine Pinede (43:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's very powerful and dedicating the
novel to her, especiallybecause she so believed in me
and my ability to do it.
And there were years that Ijust couldn't turn to the novel
because of health thingsespecially, but also other, you
(43:39):
know, just financial reasons.
But she always believed that Iwould do it and that I could do
it.
And my father too both of myparents, but in this case,
because it's mainly my mother'sstories yes, yeah, you've
carried them on.
April Snow (43:54):
It's really good.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, nadine, before we wrap up, I'm wondering if there's a
message you could leave our HSBlisteners with.
What would that be?
Nadine Pinede (44:05):
Absolutely.
It comes from a poet.
Her name is Jane Hirschfeld.
I don't know if you know herwork.
Her name is Jane Hirschfeld.
(44:39):
I don't know if you know herwork.
She's, I guess, studied as aBuddhist which just writes the
most amazing poetry and I hadthe good fortune to be in a
workshop with her and the firstthing she told us we thought she
was going to talk about sometechnical aspect of poetry, and
no, she told us to slow down,pay attention and see how
everything is connected, and Ilove that.
So, especially in moments ofpain or fear and overwhelm that
can happen.
I try to remember those wordsand that would be the advice, if
you know, if we can call thatadvice, I guess.
(45:00):
Yeah, but sharing those wordsand then also practice
self-compassion, yes absolutely.
Learn about it, practice it.
April Snow (45:11):
I think it's such an essential practice for every
sensitive person for every human, really, yes, yes, but even
more so.
Yeah, for us sensitives.
Nadine Pinede (45:20):
Yes.
April Snow (45:21):
And I think we are so suited to that.
We absolutely need to slow downas sensitive people.
But yeah, we are so gifted atseeing the interconnection of
life and everything in it.
Yes, let's take a moment, butthen the people pleasing, you
know, can come out too.
Nadine Pinede (45:36):
It's in the way, can get in the way, and then the
perfectionism and peoplepleasing are often closely
related.
I've noticed that I'll speakfor myself in that, so that was
something else that I had to letgo and say this won't please
everyone.
This is a story that somepeople won't feel is of interest
to them, and that's okay.
(45:57):
That's okay.
It's as if I had a restaurantand I have 10 tables, and if you
don't like my cooking, that'sall right, it's okay.
April Snow (46:04):
There are a lot of other restaurants.
Nadine Pinede (46:06):
There are other places.
I understand we have differenttastes.
It's fine, exactly, but thattook a while to get there.
April Snow (46:14):
It does.
It's definitely a process, yeah, but when you allow yourself to
be who you are, you get towrite books like when the Map is
Seeing.
So this deeply immersive storythat's going to be really
impactful for the right person,oh thank you and I think for a
lot of sensitive people.
Nadine Pinede (46:30):
Yeah, I hope so, because it's it helped me.
It actually helped me becomethe kind of person who could
finish that novel.
Yes, and yeah.
April Snow (46:42):
And here you are, on the other side.
Nadine Pinede (46:44):
The other side.
There's a lot to do on theother side.
I didn't know that, but thereis there's more.
Well.
April Snow (46:54):
Nadine, thank you so much for this beautiful
conversation.
Nadine Pinede (46:57):
I really appreciate everything that you
share with us and letting usinto your writing journey and
into your life story a bit and Iwill definitely be sharing your
book and your other resourcesfor folks and thank you for what
you're doing and for yourpodcast and for just creating
space and creating ways that wefeel more empowered.
April Snow (47:22):
It's really important.
Nadine Pinede (47:23):
Thank you.
April Snow (47:24):
Thank you so much.
Thanks so much for joining meand Nadine for today's
conversation.
What I hope you'll remember ishow important it is to slow down
and nurture what's mostimportant to you, to find your
(47:45):
voice and to tell your story.
You can find Nadine's new bookwhen the Mapu Sings at the link
in the show notes or whereveryou find your books.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
(48:05):
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSP resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
Strengths on Instagram, tiktokand YouTube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
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