January 28, 2025 • 42 mins
Have you used food to cope with your sensitivity? In this episode, I talk with Josie Munroe, LMFT about the connection between sensitivity and eating disorders and:
• What factors predispose highly sensitive people to developing an eating disorder
• Alternative ways to cope and find companionship other than food
• The difference between feeling calm and feeling numb as we try to soothe feelings of overwhelm and anxiety
• What changes are needed to make recovery resources more sensory friendly for HSPs
• Finding hope in the possibility of full recovery from eating disorders
Josie Munroe is an LMFT specializing in eating disorders and trauma recovery for Highly Sensitive People. She serves adults in California and Vermont through individual therapy and also has self-paced, online recovery courses available for anyone, anywhere. Josie is, herself, an HSP and an eating disorder survivor and is passionate about sharing the knowledge and tools that have transformed her work and her life.
Keep in touch with Josie:
• Website: https://www.yoursensitiverecovery.com • Website: https://www.josiemunroe.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/yoursensitiverecovery
Resources Mentioned:
• Unlocking Recovery: The SensitiviKEY (How Sensitivity Shapes Eating Disorders and Guides Healing):https://www.yoursensitiverecovery.com/courses/unlocking-recovery
• Highly Sensitive Person book by Dr. Elaine Aron: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9780553062182
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https://www.sensitivestories.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josie Munroe (00:00):
Perfectionism is so tricky because it's
self-perpetuating and when yourgoal is actually something
that's unattainable.
You've got plenty ofopportunities to beat yourself
up under the guise of if I hatemyself enough, I can turn into
magically a version of myselfthat then I can love.
April Snow (00:16):
Very dangerous game, because that's not how it works
welcome to sensitive stories,the podcast for the people who
(00:36):
live with hearts and eyes wideopen.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to join me as I deepdive into rich conversations
with fellow highly sensitivepeople that will inspire you to
live a more fulfilling life asan HSP, without all the
overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withJosie Monroe about using food to
(00:57):
cope with overwhelm and anxietyas an HSP and the relationship
between sensitivity anddeveloping an eating disorder
and what's needed for sensitivefolks to have a full recovery.
Josie Monroe, spelledM-U-N-R-O-E is a licensed
marriage and family therapistspecializing in eating disorders
and trauma recovery for highlysensitive people.
(01:19):
She serves adults in Californiaand Vermont through individual
therapy and also has self-pacedonline recovery courses
available for anyone anywhere.
Josie is herself an HSP and aneating disorder survivor and is
passionate about sharing theknowledge and tools that have
transformed her work and herlife.
For more HSP resources and tosee behind the scenes video from
(01:43):
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
treatment with mental health ormedical professional.
(02:04):
Let's dive in.
So, josie, can you start off bytelling us your HSP discovery
(02:30):
story, how or when you realizedthat you're highly sensitive?
Josie Munroe (02:34):
Absolutely Well, I'll say I always knew I was
very sensitive.
That was clear to me from veryearly.
I kind of felt like an exposednerve walking around.
I'd cry when I stepped on bugsor had little funerals for dead
birds I might find in the woods.
But it wasn't until 2019, so Iwas 35, that I heard about the
(03:01):
HSP trait for the first time,and it just so happens I went to
coffee with an HSP therapistand I think we were talking
about how much I hatednetworking and how important
that is for being in privatepractice, but also how much I
loathed it.
And she said you know what?
(03:21):
There's this really wonderfulsweet group for highly sensitive
therapists.
I said, oh great, yeah, I'mdefinitely sensitive.
She's like, no, I mean highlysensitive, as in sensory
processing sensitivity mean.
(03:45):
And so of course she gave me DrAaron's book, the Highly
Sensitive Person, which I boughtimmediately and I remember the
day that it came.
This stands out to me so much.
I took it out to the park bythe apartment where I used to
live and I had my littlehighlighter and I lay down on a
blanket and I just highlighted,like nonstop for hours, crying
over certain passages, likenonstop for hours crying over
certain passages.
I had not felt so seen and sovalidated and it was.
(04:16):
It just clicked yeah, this isme.
And then I started to see it inmy parents and so many of the
clients that I worked with.
Hello, light bulb moment.
April Snow (04:22):
It really is a light bulb moment where it's like
everything finally makes sense.
Josie Munroe (04:27):
Yeah.
April Snow (04:28):
And I appreciate that distinction you mentioned,
because when the therapist said,oh yeah, you recognize that
you're sensitive, but there'sthat other layer that's missing,
right?
Oh, this is a trait, this is acollection of characteristics
we're born with and it reallydoes shift.
I'm curious, when you learnedabout the trait that dr erin
(04:48):
wrote about in her first book,what shifts then when you have
that extra layer, and you saidyou notice it around you in your
world, but did anything shiftinternally for you?
Josie Munroe (04:58):
oh, 100, yeah, yeah.
I think the biggest thing waslearning how to work with the
trait as opposed to against itand trying to push it down,
squash it.
I really got to look back andgo, wow, I had been masking for
a lot of my life than I did ever, growing up, through my young
(05:25):
adulthood, and I think that'scommon, not only as we get older
, but just letting the guarddown.
And now I cry at everything andI don't try to hide it, I'm
fine with it.
April Snow (05:39):
Yeah, you can be your full self with your
emotions.
Yeah, it is a relief.
Josie Munroe (05:46):
Yeah.
April Snow (05:47):
And to segue into your expertise, I want to ask
you about your connectionbetween being highly sensitive
and how that's influenced yourrelationship with food over the
years.
Josie Munroe (06:00):
Sure, yeah.
So, like I said, I was about 35when I found this out.
So through my whole eatingdisorder and the recovery
process, I was about 35 when Ifound this out.
So through my whole eatingdisorder and the recovery
process, I didn't know about anyof this.
It's only in hindsight that Ican look back now.
But I actually had a reallyhealthy relationship with food
and my body growing up and rightup until when the eating
disorder started.
(06:20):
I was like halfway throughcollege and there was just a lot
of difficult experienceshappening at the same time and I
started eating lessunintentionally probably, was
depressed as I look back andlost some weight.
And then something reallystrange happened oh, the less I
(06:49):
eat, the quieter the world isbecoming.
It turned down the volume ofthe overstimulation.
It turned down my undiagnosedanxiety and I felt really calm
to some degree.
I hesitate to use that wordbecause of course it was arming
me at the same time, but, gosh,like all eating disorders, they
really help you until they don't.
(07:10):
But the focus on controlling myfood was super effective and I
rarely felt overwhelmed becauseI was just numbed out and that
was really addicting, thatfeeling.
So that made choosing recoverywhen I finally did really
difficult.
(07:30):
You know, I had a lot ofambivalence, which is really
common in people with eatingdisorders, because it's like,
well, why do I want to go backto feeling really overwhelmed
and out of control when I've gotthis thing?
I just I did not know that Icould be sensitive and balanced
and peaceful at the same time,just did not know.
April Snow (07:53):
You'd never live that version of being sensitive
and not knowing that you'rehighly sensitive.
There's no awareness aroundwhat needs to shift awareness
around what needs to shift.
So you took control of thatoverwhelm, that anxiety, through
your diet.
And are we equating?
Could we equate calm with numb?
I heard you use those two wordsas you were talking.
Josie Munroe (08:16):
Yeah, yeah so numb , felt like calm to me at that
time because I didn't know thedifference but yeah it
definitely made the world seemto run a little slower.
The lights were dimmed a bit.
I also had a starving brain, soit does that, but it felt, like
(08:36):
I said, really addicting.
I liked it.
I wanted it to continue and, atthe same time, really wanted to
not be doing what I was doing.
It ended up really destroying alot of things for me, but,
especially in the beginning, itwas exactly what I needed
unfortunately.
April Snow (08:58):
Right, that's the thing.
It helps at some level.
But then there's also that cost.
Yeah, yeah, and you don't haveto share this if it's not
comfortable.
But I'm wondering could youshare a little bit about the
cost?
You said it started to harm youCould?
Josie Munroe (09:14):
you share?
April Snow (09:15):
generally what you mean by that?
Josie Munroe (09:16):
Yeah, absolutely, so it definitely affected my
relationships quite a bit Ipulled away from everybody that
I loved.
The eating disorder sort oftakes its place as a companion
sometimes and yeah I just Ichose that over other
relationships, sort ofunconsciously but also
(09:40):
consciously sometimes.
And I was actually married atthe time to my first husband
through part of that eatingdisorder years and that marriage
did not survive my eatingdisorder and in hindsight that
was good for both of us, butcertainly the eating disorder
played a role in that really bigrole.
And then I somehow made itthrough college and held down a
(10:04):
job.
I was what I would considerhigh functioning but also
miserable, extremely depressed,wrestled a lot with suicidality
from just having to live withthat eating disorder.
April Snow (10:18):
Yeah, you were really it sounds like really in
survival mode, yeah.
Josie Munroe (10:22):
Yeah, yeah.
April Snow (10:25):
And the disorder becomes the primary relationship
in your life where everythingelse kind of centers around it.
And it's again.
It's a high cost to pay forrelief.
You have to lose so much justto get a sense of okay, can I
not feel so much or not befeeling so much anxiety.
(10:45):
It's difficult.
Josie Munroe (10:47):
Yeah, but losing what I lost was sort of the
catalyst.
It's difficult, yeah, butlosing what I lost was sort of
the catalyst.
I was able to say, okay, well,going forward, I'm not going to
be able to really form deeprelationships with this eating
disorder in tow, and if I wantthat, I've got to let it go you
had an epiphany there.
April Snow (11:07):
Okay, something has to change.
Josie Munroe (11:10):
And thank goodness .
April Snow (11:11):
And thank goodness, yeah, yeah.
What's that first step you takeonce you have that awareness?
Okay, I need to shift somethinghere.
What do you do first?
Josie Munroe (11:23):
Well, for me it was getting help, yeah.
Like actual therapeutic help.
And I worked with a wonderfultherapist who was recovered
herself, and that was reallypowerful to me because I
didn'tilles heel, so to speak,so you've got to manage it.
And she said, no, actually youcan be fully recovered and it
(11:56):
can be fully behind you and youdon't have to worry about it
coming back.
And that changed the trajectoryof everything.
And I am one of those peopletoday who can say, yeah, I'm
fully recovered.
I know a ton of people who arefully recovered.
It is possible, yes.
April Snow (12:12):
I mean, what a sense of hope.
Oh, I don't have to constantlybe carrying this around with me.
Josie Munroe (12:17):
Yeah, yeah, and when we don't believe that full
recovery is possible, you don'treally try as hard, you know
you're not going to put your allinto something that's sort of a
mediocre outcome Of course Imean.
April Snow (12:31):
It'd be so discouraging to know I'm never
going to get fully through thisRight.
Why should I work so hard orput so much into myself?
Josie Munroe (12:40):
Yeah.
April Snow (12:41):
But having that person, that therapist, say
here's what's possible, you canstep aside from this, you can
heal.
Yeah, need that so much mm-hmm.
Absolutely so, now that youhave these two layers of your
experience having had an eatingdisorder, being highly sensitive
(13:02):
person, and now working withclients in this space what link
do you see between having thetrait and then developing an
eating disorder?
Are there connections there?
Josie Munroe (13:12):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
There are certain factors thatwill predispose somebody to an
eating disorder.
Hsps have a lot of those, butalso factors that we call
maintaining factors, which keepthe eating disorder going once
it's taken root.
So also common with a lot ofHSPs, and I'll go over a couple
(13:33):
of each of those.
April Snow (13:34):
Yeah, that'd be helpful, thank you.
Josie Munroe (13:36):
Yeah for predisposing factors.
One of the big ones is harmavoidance.
Yes, being highly sensitive, wecan really easily, with our
depth of processing, spotpotential areas of harm of harm
and then what we might do toavoid that.
And of course the feeling ofharm, whatever it is, is very
(14:00):
deep, very painful, and for alot of HSPs harm avoidance
starts to show up as self-doubt,which of course, as I know you
and every other HSP has heardyou're so sensitive, you're too
sensitive, you're overreacting.
It's not that big a deal.
Of course we'll start to doubtourselves and mistrust our own
(14:24):
signals, so kind of piggybackingoff of harm avoidance is
perfectionism.
April Snow (14:31):
And those go hand in hand.
Josie Munroe (14:33):
The HSP can also really easily spot how something
can be made better yes, betterin quotes, yes.
And to avoid that potentialharm, they'll seek perfectionism
, and sometimes that's throughthe way they interact with food,
or will focus on a number onthe scale.
But perfectionism is so trickybecause it's self-perpetuating
(14:57):
and when your goal is actuallysomething that's unattainable,
you've got plenty ofopportunities to beat yourself
up under the guise of if I hatemyself enough, I can turn into
magically a version of myselfthat then I can love.
Very dangerous game.
April Snow (15:14):
Very.
Josie Munroe (15:15):
Because that's not how it works.
Right, right, yeah, and let'ssee.
So one of the maintainingfactors, like I talked about
with my own experience, is thatneed for relief or distraction,
and I think highly sensitivepeople are always going to be
(15:35):
looking for ways to cope in thisoverwhelming world, whether
they find healthy ways or not isanother story.
But food is a really easy copingtool for the management of food
right.
It's readily available and Iwant to say about that, like
(15:56):
using food to cope is okay,there's nothing inherently wrong
with that, but it's importantto have more tools than that.
April Snow (16:05):
Right, right.
Josie Munroe (16:06):
We need other options, yeah yeah, just like
how distracting is a valid formof coping, but we want more than
just distracting in our toolbox, right yeah, so that need for
relief is definitely a bigmaintaining factor.
Another one is isolation, andhighly sensitive people don't
(16:29):
necessarily isolate.
But we have that need to taketime to ourselves for sensory
rest, just to sort of recharge.
And if there's an eatingdisorder in the mix or starting
to take root, that healthy alonetime can be hijacked and turned
into isolation, because aneating disorder really needs
(16:49):
isolation to thrive and in thatisolation is where it starts to
become a companion of sorts,like we talked about earlier
with the relationship piece.
So somebody might want to getrid of their eating disorder but
at the same time they feelcompelled to protect it at all
costs no, no matter what,because it's a companion in a
(17:11):
lot of ways.
April Snow (17:12):
Which it sounds like you found yourself doing.
That, you know, pushing othersaway, making that kind of the
primary center to protect thistool.
Even though it becamemaladaptive At first, it was
really helping you.
Yeah, that makes sense and Icould see how, as you're talking
about this, you know findingrelief, taking alone time, just
(17:33):
kind of reframing those intodifferent words.
But those are things we're toldand we know we need as hsps.
So on the surface it could betricky oh I'm just doing my
self-care, but then thatactually that could turn dark,
yeah, be different.
It could be a problem, and Icould see how that could be a
slippery road for folks.
Josie Munroe (17:55):
Right, yeah, I mean, there were several times
where I can recall tellingmyself like, oh, I just need to
do this to take care of myself.
Yeah, and that's not what washappening?
You get really good at not onlylying to other people, but
lying to yourself.
April Snow (18:10):
Absolutely.
Josie Munroe (18:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
April Snow (18:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
And there's that shadow side,that part that ends up hurting
you in the end.
I want to just kind of breakapart something you said in the
middle there which I think isimportant.
Actually, nice to hear thatit's okay if food is used for
coping sometimes.
Yeah, okay if food is used forcoping sometimes, yeah, yeah.
How do we differentiate ahealthy use of I don't know if
(18:40):
that's the right word, but kindof a balanced use of food as
coping versus maybe aproblematic use of food as
coping.
Josie Munroe (18:43):
How do we know the difference?
Yeah, so the first thing, likeI said, is making sure you've
got other tools and being ableto take a look at whether or not
you're actually using thoseother tools.
If you find that you're relyingprimarily on food or the
control of food, that's a reallygood indicator and usually the
first indicator.
And then it's how is thisrelationship with food and
(19:04):
that's one of the first things Ilike to explore with clients is
your relationship with food andyour relationship with your
body.
How is that impacting otherareas of your life?
So, if you find that you'returning to food to cope but
maybe it's okay, but you'returning down opportunities to
connect with people, that mightbe an issue.
(19:25):
Yeah, that could be something tolook at.
Yeah, through the recoveryprocess, you really learn to
turn to people rather than youreating disorder behaviors, to
get through life, which isreally important, absolutely
Right, needing to have thosepeople you can lean on to
co-regulate with anddiversifying.
April Snow (19:46):
How are you taking care of yourself and making sure
that you're not just leaning onfood?
That's, I think, an easy way tokind of check yourself.
Yeah, am I just leaning on foodor am I reaching out to friends
, or am I using some of my otherpractices?
Josie Munroe (20:02):
Yeah, yeah.
And another good tool to sortof assess that relationship
there is to see how large theimpact is.
Like let's say, if you'restruggling with compulsive
eating and you're at like a 10out of 10 of anger and rage one
day and you start compulsivelyeating and suddenly you're down
to a zero, that's a huge jumpwhen other coping tools usually
(20:27):
healthy ones aren't that big.
You might go from a 10 to a 5and that's wonderful.
But if you've got this hugechange, that also might be a
clue that you're utilizingsomething that isn't great for
you.
April Snow (20:43):
It's too drastic.
Yeah, you mentionedcompulsively eating and you also
mentioned restricting.
Are there other waysproblematic eating can show up
that we maybe we wouldn't thinkof?
Josie Munroe (20:58):
and celebrated in our culture.
That's true.
So you know, dieting is one ofthe first things people turn to
when they want to get healthierquotations.
And that's really scary becausedieting is one of the quickest
(21:24):
ways into an eating disorder.
It sets somebody up so severelyfor really damaging that
relationship with food.
So we might be looking at happy,successful people and thinking,
oh, they're just reallydisciplined with their food, but
internally they're really rigidor very chaotic.
Maybe they eat in secret orthey're constantly going through
(21:48):
a little Rolodex of numbers intheir head.
We just don't know that.
You know, sometimes that showsup in compulsive exercise.
So we might see athletes and go, wow, they're just so dedicated
to their sport.
But no, they're actuallycompelled to do this and that's
an illness, right, right, it'sreally scary.
(22:09):
And then we've got all thesehealth fads.
You know, juice cleanses andfasting, disordered eating can
look like so many differentthings.
So it's really.
It can be hard to spot, notonly as a clinician but for an
individual as well.
It's really easy to say,actually I'm fine, because
everybody else in my friendgroup does this.
(22:29):
No big deal.
April Snow (22:31):
That's true.
If the people around you arepracticing the same type of
eating, it could be really easyto normalize it, but it sounds
like you could get under theactual actions by looking at the
motivation.
What's happening in the bigpicture?
Are you avoiding?
Are you controlling?
Is there something you'retrying to kind of get right, so
(22:54):
get perfect, and are yousacrificing other areas of your
life to continue this?
yeah be causing some significantharm in the process great
question to be asking, yeahexactly, yeah, exactly, and I
appreciate you helping kind oftease this apart for the
sensitive person.
So HSPs could be verypredisposed to falling into an
(23:18):
eating disorder or dysfunctionaleating because we're trying to
reduce the amount of feeling ordiscomfort that we're having.
The amount of feeling ordiscomfort that we're having and
I've seen a lot of clients showup in my office who have a
history of this right, whetherit's well or currently happening
, but they're using it to try toself-soothe right, try to get a
(23:42):
sense of relief.
Josie Munroe (23:44):
Yeah, so we're often we can't fault somebody
for that Exactly, we reallycan't.
April Snow (23:49):
It's hard to be constantly living in discomfort
or overwhelm, but yeah,expanding what's available.
So I want to move on to thenext part of the conversation,
which is how do we then supportfolks who are in this space and
they're highly sensitive?
So how does being highlysensitive impact the treatment
(24:10):
process?
Josie Munroe (24:12):
Yeah Well, I think , first and foremost, there's a
really harmful belief that afull recovery looks a certain
way for everybody.
That's not true, and this hasoverall gotten a lot better, I
think, in like the last decade,but there's still a lot of work
(24:33):
to be done in the treatmentworld.
So just to give you a personalexample when I was in treatment,
some of the sensory issues thatI had and still have with food
were confused with intentionaleating disorder behaviors and
(24:53):
outside of the sort of the majorrestriction purging binging,
when I talk about eatingdisorder behaviors that also
includes what we sometimes calltable behaviors.
So that might be cutting foodinto small pieces, taking really
small bites, eating quickly orslowly, not wanting food to
touch.
And for me it just happened tobe that I have sort of a limit
(25:19):
on how much of a soft food I caneat at once.
Yes, when I was in treatment Ihad to restore weight.
So I remember for breakfast,almost every morning, I would be
given this huge plate ofscrambled eggs plus some oatmeal
, plus some other things, andwhen I would reach that
threshold it was game over.
(25:41):
Even when I felt like I wantedto continue eating, you know, I
had my hunger cues back.
I just couldn't do it.
And I remember crying andsaying, please, like, give me
toast, give me an apple, give mesomething.
I just couldn't do it.
And I remember crying andsaying, please, like, give me
toast, give me an apple, give mesomething.
I just can't do this anymore.
And they would say I'm sorry,but like, that's your eating
disorder talking.
You have to push through that.
And I didn't have the wordsthen to say no, it's not, you
(26:04):
need to pay attention to this.
I would just cry and sufferthrough it.
But I think you know this getsrecognized a lot with the eating
disorder ARFID which isavoidant, restrictive food
intake disorder.
That's where somebody will sortof say, oh, this person probably
has sensory issues with food.
But it can occur in all eatingdisorder presentations but it
(26:29):
isn't necessarily looked for, sothat gets missed a lot.
April Snow (26:35):
That's got to be incredibly problematic for a
sensitive person because thereare some very legitimate sensory
issues that come up with eating, like you're saying, with
texture, temperature, so manyother pieces, right, and to have
that be dismissed is, I mean,just perpetuating the
invalidation we've experienced.
Right, saying, yeah, you knowthis isn't what you're really
(26:58):
experiencing, and then thatmistrust, that self-mistrust,
starts to build again.
Yeah, and at that time youdidn't know you were highly
sensitive, correct by that time.
Correct, yeah, right.
Yeah, no idea, yeah, no, no,correct, yeah Right.
Josie Munroe (27:09):
Yeah, no idea.
April Snow (27:10):
Yeah, no, no language for that.
Josie Munroe (27:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So one of the other problemswith a typical treatment
approach when it comes toworking with HSPs if it's not
individual therapy, a lot ofpeople who have eating disorders
are going to end up needingmore than just 50 minute
sessions once a week to getbetter.
So treatment centers andprograms generally are in a
(27:35):
large group setting.
So if you can imagine a roomfull of sensitive folks sitting
together hearing about otherpeople's eating disorder
struggles, processing traumatogether, mirror neurons are
firing all over the place andnot only that.
But there's the tendency to fallinto a comparison trap there.
(27:57):
Sure, oh, you know, this personhas had it so much worse than I
have.
Why am I sitting here with aneating disorder?
I don't deserve this spot.
I don't deserve this bed inthis treatment center, you know
my life isn't bad enough.
And that's so dangerous, sodangerous, and it's exhausting,
(28:18):
really exhausting, and alongwith what else is exhausting, is
the sensory overwhelm thatcomes with exposure therapy,
which is really natural in atreatment setting that you're
exposed to what you fearmultiple times a day.
You have to get through thatand most treatment programs are
designed to be really packed.
(28:39):
You've got several sessions,groups, activities back to back
to back to back to back, so thatleaves little to no downtime
for sensory rest, for alone timeand, generally speaking,
somebody with an eating disorderis looked at as not capable of
being alone because they'regoing to turn to their eating
disorder, which I understand theimportance of that, you know
(29:02):
wanting to keep somebody safefrom their behaviors.
But at the same time I think weneed to find a middle ground
there.
April Snow (29:11):
Right Cause you mentioned.
You know you mentioned yourisolation can be dangerous.
But then how do you get thatprocessing recharge time that
desperately need as an HSP, as aclinician who works in this
area, is there anything you'vefound that helps to find that
balance?
How do we satisfy both needs ofkeeping attention on the person
(29:31):
who's in recovery but alsoallowing their nervous system to
get what it?
Josie Munroe (29:35):
needs.
Yeah, I did a webinar about howto manage being an HSP if you
go into residential treatmentand I ended up creating a
document that somebody couldgive to their treatment team of
all the ways that they couldsupport somebody.
And thinking about back to mytime in treatment, being able to
go into a room maybe that'svisible, but kind of separated
(29:59):
from other people, or maybeoutside sitting under a tree
where somebody could see youthrough a window, but you still
have that space to just breathe.
I think it's really importantand we're humans and to give
somebody the benefit of thedoubt that maybe they can be
alone and be safe until you'reproven wrong.
(30:21):
I don't think it's fair to justassume that of everybody.
It's really harmful, dismissive.
April Snow (30:29):
Right, it can be very dehumanizing to not be
trusted, to be with yourself andI understand there's some of
that that can be dangerous whenyou're in the recovery process.
But yeah, you still need to bea human, be with yourself at
least for a few moments.
Just hearing your experienceand thinking about the recovery
(30:49):
process, you could just see itcould be kind of looping back
into dysregulation as you'retrying to get healing.
Just the sensory overload alonewith the food textures and
being in constant contact withpeople and maybe experiencing
vicarious trauma through theseother stories and then feeling
like you don't deserve helpyourself through these other
(31:14):
stories and then feel like youdon't deserve help yourself.
This is a lot to process.
It's a lot to physically manage, sensory wise.
And can it ever?
Josie Munroe (31:20):
is yeah, it's tough, hard for everybody and
really hard, I think, forsensitive folks.
Yeah, and what's sad about thatis and this goes beyond just
highly sensitive people, butneuroddivergent folks in general
can get left behind or they getlabeled as noncompliant, which
is really painful.
(31:40):
Part of my sensory stuff intreatment was that my body
responded to the increase incalories very sensitive to that
by developing reactivehyperglycemia, and I didn't know
really what that was then, butI was getting accused daily of
purging and I wasn't.
April Snow (32:01):
I was sort of your model patient.
As most HSPs are right Even toour own detriment.
What is hyperreactivehypoglycemia?
Josie Munroe (32:11):
So it was just a reaction of my blood sugar, like
when I was having suddenly anincreased intake In between
meals.
I would get really shakysuddenly and and that was looked
at as like, oh, you must bedoing something wrong.
Are you purging, are youexercising in secret?
And I was not.
I was doing everything I couldto get better and that was
(32:33):
really sad for me because Istarted feeling some anger
toward the way my body wasresponding.
I was sort of distrusting whatwas happening there.
April Snow (32:43):
Sure, I mean, your body is kind of getting you in
trouble.
Josie Munroe (32:48):
Yeah, it was sensitive and it probably needed
to work up to that intake alittle bit slower.
April Snow (32:55):
Yes, absolutely, the process can be so rushed.
I was just thinking about, asyou're taking in more food and
maybe gaining just a little bitof weight or just having
different reactions in your bodythan you're used to as an HSP
you're noticing all that as sucha subtle level and how that
could kick off a lot of anxietyor worry or emotion.
Josie Munroe (33:14):
Yeah, HSP is a really in tune or can be out
there can be really in tune withwhat's happening Weight rise,
the jump from hungry to totallyfull can sometimes be like that
an instant drop of a dime yes,would you say.
April Snow (33:36):
That also contributes to this issue where
we're noticing our body at sucha subtle level like even just
feeling slightly like we have alittle bit more weight or
something's off.
Does that contribute?
Josie Munroe (33:51):
yeah, I would say that's another one of those both
predisposing and maintainingfactors and having sort of
increased interceptive awarenessyes really in touch with.
April Snow (34:02):
Oh like, I'm a little bit bloated today panic,
right, and, and it could be at alevel that another, if you
weren't highly sensitive youwouldn't even notice that change
in your body, but we wouldright, yeah, and that can set up
kind of a chain reaction, yeah.
So, josie, what else haven't wegotten to today feels important
(34:22):
for you to share?
We've talked a bit about yourown journey and why hsps can be
predisposed to struggling witheating disorders and kind of
what the recovery process lookslike.
Some of the hardships Iactually wonder could we talk
about.
Are there ways that HSPs couldthrive or do well If we could
talk about the flip side?
Josie Munroe (34:44):
in recovery.
Yeah, I think that's one of themost important things is that
when you can start to embraceyour sensitivity, it opens you
up to the gifts that areactually already inherent in you
to thrive in recovery and inlife beyond recovery.
But as long as you're fightingit and trying to squash it, you
(35:05):
can't really access those gifts.
But typically, you know, an HSPis really good at taking a look
at themselves and they'reinterested in that introspection
, and that is really reallyhelpful in the recovery process
is to understand yourself, true,but to look at it through a
(35:33):
compassionate lens and go oh, Isee why I make that connection,
or I see why I turn to thisinstead of that.
Doing that with compassion ismagical.
And sensitive people with ourempathy.
If we can learn how to turn itaround toward ourselves, it's so
powerful.
April Snow (35:49):
Yes, it really is.
Josie Munroe (35:50):
We can give all that we give to others and turn
that back in, especially aswe're healing and recovering I
think the one thing that I wouldwant sensitive people to know
about all of this is that youdon't have to be any less
sensitive to fully recover.
April Snow (36:10):
Okay, so you don't have to not that you could, but
you don't have to change yoursensitivity or how much you
allow that to be expressed, torecover.
Josie Munroe (36:21):
Yeah, the eating disorder didn't develop because
you were highly sensitive,although maybe it developed as a
way to help you manage that,that you do not have to become
any less sensitive to get better.
April Snow (36:33):
I think that's an important distinction, because
we're saying that you know, hspscan easily fall into this as a
coping tool, but there's not adirect connection.
It's not that one goes with theother, it's just one path we
may go down to try to take careof ourselves.
Josie Munroe (36:50):
Right.
April Snow (36:50):
Yeah, down to try to take care of ourselves, right
yeah, now that you're on theother side, you're living as a
healed person, which is soinspiring.
What do you reach for now tosupport yourself?
People, yes.
Josie Munroe (37:05):
People first and foremost.
Yeah, nature is another onethat I think.
I mean I always knew that Iloved nature, but I think it
surprised me when I startedpaying attention to just how
healing it could be.
I like to turn to that taking alittle 10 minute walk in the
middle of my work days.
(37:25):
Ah, I look forward to it somuch.
You know, a couple of years agoleft Los Angeles and moved to
Vermont and that was a whole newchapter in my sensitivity.
I realized once I left the cityhow much I needed this quiet
and this really close connectionwith the trees and the
(37:47):
mountains and the seasons.
Yeah, it was a whole new levelof peace.
April Snow (37:55):
I love it.
My wife and I.
That's kind of our next plan,because I'm in California as
well right now and we're like wewant to go to Vermont, Just
slow things down.
That's so funny.
It's kind of the vision we'vebeen holding.
But, yeah, we need that peaceright, the rhythms right.
I think that's really importantfor us to have those
touchstones.
And, yeah, we need that, thatpeace right, the rhythms right.
I think that's really importantfor us to have those touchstones
and, yeah, there can beconnection in nature, there can
(38:19):
be healing in nature.
Josie Munroe (38:21):
Yeah, yeah, whether I'm alone or with other
people, nature is a companion inand of itself.
April Snow (38:28):
Absolutely, it really is.
You've given us a lot of hopetoday.
Thank you.
This is a topic that isimportant to explore in our
community.
I don't think it's one that'stalked about enough.
Josie Munroe (38:43):
Yeah, I agree.
April Snow (38:45):
Yeah, and you mentioned reminding the
sensitive folks out there thatthere is a possibility to heal
without changing yoursensitivity.
Is there anything else you wantto leave folks with?
Josie Munroe (38:59):
You can do it.
Yeah, I know it feels reallyhard and maybe impossible at
times, but it's not and yourbelief in yourself is really
what's going to change that.
That's right and you don't haveto do what's going to change
that.
That's right, and you don'thave to do it all at once.
Little baby steps.
April Snow (39:16):
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, one step at a time, andas you share, it's a process,
right, allowing it to unfoldover.
Time is important.
Josie Munroe (39:27):
Yeah, and if we think about you know we're
healing our relationship withfood or our body or both.
That doesn't just end when youstop using behaviors.
Right, I still have arelationship with food that I
want to nurture and arelationship with my body that I
want to pay attention to andhonor.
That is the definition ofprocess, right there.
(39:48):
That part's lifelong, not thestruggle process right there.
April Snow (39:53):
That part's lifelong , not the struggle.
That's it Right.
The relationship continues.
Yeah, it's a healedrelationship.
Yeah, sounds like moresupportive relationship Totally.
Yes, I love that.
Well, thank you so much, josie.
This is lovely.
I just love connecting with youand learning about your
specialty, and I know that youhave a lot of helpful resources
(40:14):
for folks.
I'll be sure to share that yourwebsite, your social media.
You have recovery resources aswell.
Can you tell listeners a littlebit about your course?
Josie Munroe (40:23):
Yeah, so I've got a couple little courses out
there right now and more alwaysin the works because I found
that that's really enjoyable forme.
But there is one core workshopthat I think is really helpful
and that's called surviving tothriving understand your
sensitivity, unlock yourrecovery.
And that's going to go reallynicely with our conversation
today, because it takes a deeperdive into how sensitivity
(40:47):
shapes needing disorder and howhonoring your nature is really a
key component of getting better.
And that will actually, youknow, that course will actually
help somebody who might be in asimilar spot that I was.
Like I know I'm sensitive, butam I highly sensitive?
And this course can helpilluminate that as well.
(41:09):
And it's ideal not just forpeople going through eating
disorder recovery but forsupporters as well if they want
to learn more about sensitivityand how to support somebody.
April Snow (41:19):
Oh, that's wonderful .
I mean, hopefully, then you'rebringing people into your world
and having those support systemshelping you know, making sure
that you're not isolating.
I love that and maybe you caneven take it alongside your
support person.
Potentially is to work together.
Josie Munroe (41:38):
That's my hope.
April Snow (41:39):
Yeah, I love that.
That's such a great resource.
So you're I love it, you'rebringing the conversation right
into the forefront, right intothe fold, using it as a resource
.
Yeah, how healing is that?
Into the fold, using it as aresource.
Josie Munroe (41:52):
Yeah, how healing is that?
April Snow (41:53):
So healing, and I want that you know for everybody
that that is ultimately why Ibecame an eating disorder
therapist.
Thanks so much for joining meand Josie for today's
conversation.
What I hope you're taking awayis that it is possible to
(42:19):
redefine your relationship withfood and find other ways to
soothe your sensitive nervoussystem and build connection.
For more support, you can checkout Josie's new course
Surviving to Thriving.
Understand your Sensitivity andUnlock your Recovery at
yoursensitiverecoverycom or headto the link in the show notes.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
(42:40):
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSP resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
Strengths on Instagram, tiktokand YouTube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
(43:00):
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
Perfectionism is so tricky because it's
self-perpetuating and when yourgoal is actually something
that's unattainable.
You've got plenty ofopportunities to beat yourself
up under the guise of if I hatemyself enough, I can turn into
magically a version of myselfthat then I can love.
April Snow (00:16):
Very dangerous game, because that's not how it works
welcome to sensitive stories,the podcast for the people who
(00:36):
live with hearts and eyes wideopen.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to join me as I deepdive into rich conversations
with fellow highly sensitivepeople that will inspire you to
live a more fulfilling life asan HSP, without all the
overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withJosie Monroe about using food to
(00:57):
cope with overwhelm and anxietyas an HSP and the relationship
between sensitivity anddeveloping an eating disorder
and what's needed for sensitivefolks to have a full recovery.
Josie Monroe, spelledM-U-N-R-O-E is a licensed
marriage and family therapistspecializing in eating disorders
and trauma recovery for highlysensitive people.
(01:19):
She serves adults in Californiaand Vermont through individual
therapy and also has self-pacedonline recovery courses
available for anyone anywhere.
Josie is herself an HSP and aneating disorder survivor and is
passionate about sharing theknowledge and tools that have
transformed her work and herlife.
For more HSP resources and tosee behind the scenes video from
(01:43):
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
treatment with mental health ormedical professional.
(02:04):
Let's dive in.
So, josie, can you start off bytelling us your HSP discovery
(02:30):
story, how or when you realizedthat you're highly sensitive?
Josie Munroe (02:34):
Absolutely Well, I'll say I always knew I was
very sensitive.
That was clear to me from veryearly.
I kind of felt like an exposednerve walking around.
I'd cry when I stepped on bugsor had little funerals for dead
birds I might find in the woods.
But it wasn't until 2019, so Iwas 35, that I heard about the
(03:01):
HSP trait for the first time,and it just so happens I went to
coffee with an HSP therapistand I think we were talking
about how much I hatednetworking and how important
that is for being in privatepractice, but also how much I
loathed it.
And she said you know what?
(03:21):
There's this really wonderfulsweet group for highly sensitive
therapists.
I said, oh great, yeah, I'mdefinitely sensitive.
She's like, no, I mean highlysensitive, as in sensory
processing sensitivity mean.
(03:45):
And so of course she gave me DrAaron's book, the Highly
Sensitive Person, which I boughtimmediately and I remember the
day that it came.
This stands out to me so much.
I took it out to the park bythe apartment where I used to
live and I had my littlehighlighter and I lay down on a
blanket and I just highlighted,like nonstop for hours, crying
over certain passages, likenonstop for hours crying over
certain passages.
I had not felt so seen and sovalidated and it was.
(04:16):
It just clicked yeah, this isme.
And then I started to see it inmy parents and so many of the
clients that I worked with.
Hello, light bulb moment.
April Snow (04:22):
It really is a light bulb moment where it's like
everything finally makes sense.
Josie Munroe (04:27):
Yeah.
April Snow (04:28):
And I appreciate that distinction you mentioned,
because when the therapist said,oh yeah, you recognize that
you're sensitive, but there'sthat other layer that's missing,
right?
Oh, this is a trait, this is acollection of characteristics
we're born with and it reallydoes shift.
I'm curious, when you learnedabout the trait that dr erin
(04:48):
wrote about in her first book,what shifts then when you have
that extra layer, and you saidyou notice it around you in your
world, but did anything shiftinternally for you?
Josie Munroe (04:58):
oh, 100, yeah, yeah.
I think the biggest thing waslearning how to work with the
trait as opposed to against itand trying to push it down,
squash it.
I really got to look back andgo, wow, I had been masking for
a lot of my life than I did ever, growing up, through my young
(05:25):
adulthood, and I think that'scommon, not only as we get older
, but just letting the guarddown.
And now I cry at everything andI don't try to hide it, I'm
fine with it.
April Snow (05:39):
Yeah, you can be your full self with your
emotions.
Yeah, it is a relief.
Josie Munroe (05:46):
Yeah.
April Snow (05:47):
And to segue into your expertise, I want to ask
you about your connectionbetween being highly sensitive
and how that's influenced yourrelationship with food over the
years.
Josie Munroe (06:00):
Sure, yeah.
So, like I said, I was about 35when I found this out.
So through my whole eatingdisorder and the recovery
process, I was about 35 when Ifound this out.
So through my whole eatingdisorder and the recovery
process, I didn't know about anyof this.
It's only in hindsight that Ican look back now.
But I actually had a reallyhealthy relationship with food
and my body growing up and rightup until when the eating
disorder started.
(06:20):
I was like halfway throughcollege and there was just a lot
of difficult experienceshappening at the same time and I
started eating lessunintentionally probably, was
depressed as I look back andlost some weight.
And then something reallystrange happened oh, the less I
(06:49):
eat, the quieter the world isbecoming.
It turned down the volume ofthe overstimulation.
It turned down my undiagnosedanxiety and I felt really calm
to some degree.
I hesitate to use that wordbecause of course it was arming
me at the same time, but, gosh,like all eating disorders, they
really help you until they don't.
(07:10):
But the focus on controlling myfood was super effective and I
rarely felt overwhelmed becauseI was just numbed out and that
was really addicting, thatfeeling.
So that made choosing recoverywhen I finally did really
difficult.
(07:30):
You know, I had a lot ofambivalence, which is really
common in people with eatingdisorders, because it's like,
well, why do I want to go backto feeling really overwhelmed
and out of control when I've gotthis thing?
I just I did not know that Icould be sensitive and balanced
and peaceful at the same time,just did not know.
April Snow (07:53):
You'd never live that version of being sensitive
and not knowing that you'rehighly sensitive.
There's no awareness aroundwhat needs to shift awareness
around what needs to shift.
So you took control of thatoverwhelm, that anxiety, through
your diet.
And are we equating?
Could we equate calm with numb?
I heard you use those two wordsas you were talking.
Josie Munroe (08:16):
Yeah, yeah so numb , felt like calm to me at that
time because I didn't know thedifference but yeah it
definitely made the world seemto run a little slower.
The lights were dimmed a bit.
I also had a starving brain, soit does that, but it felt, like
(08:36):
I said, really addicting.
I liked it.
I wanted it to continue and, atthe same time, really wanted to
not be doing what I was doing.
It ended up really destroying alot of things for me, but,
especially in the beginning, itwas exactly what I needed
unfortunately.
April Snow (08:58):
Right, that's the thing.
It helps at some level.
But then there's also that cost.
Yeah, yeah, and you don't haveto share this if it's not
comfortable.
But I'm wondering could youshare a little bit about the
cost?
You said it started to harm youCould?
Josie Munroe (09:14):
you share?
April Snow (09:15):
generally what you mean by that?
Josie Munroe (09:16):
Yeah, absolutely, so it definitely affected my
relationships quite a bit Ipulled away from everybody that
I loved.
The eating disorder sort oftakes its place as a companion
sometimes and yeah I just Ichose that over other
relationships, sort ofunconsciously but also
(09:40):
consciously sometimes.
And I was actually married atthe time to my first husband
through part of that eatingdisorder years and that marriage
did not survive my eatingdisorder and in hindsight that
was good for both of us, butcertainly the eating disorder
played a role in that really bigrole.
And then I somehow made itthrough college and held down a
(10:04):
job.
I was what I would considerhigh functioning but also
miserable, extremely depressed,wrestled a lot with suicidality
from just having to live withthat eating disorder.
April Snow (10:18):
Yeah, you were really it sounds like really in
survival mode, yeah.
Josie Munroe (10:22):
Yeah, yeah.
April Snow (10:25):
And the disorder becomes the primary relationship
in your life where everythingelse kind of centers around it.
And it's again.
It's a high cost to pay forrelief.
You have to lose so much justto get a sense of okay, can I
not feel so much or not befeeling so much anxiety.
(10:45):
It's difficult.
Josie Munroe (10:47):
Yeah, but losing what I lost was sort of the
catalyst.
It's difficult, yeah, butlosing what I lost was sort of
the catalyst.
I was able to say, okay, well,going forward, I'm not going to
be able to really form deeprelationships with this eating
disorder in tow, and if I wantthat, I've got to let it go you
had an epiphany there.
April Snow (11:07):
Okay, something has to change.
Josie Munroe (11:10):
And thank goodness .
April Snow (11:11):
And thank goodness, yeah, yeah.
What's that first step you takeonce you have that awareness?
Okay, I need to shift somethinghere.
What do you do first?
Josie Munroe (11:23):
Well, for me it was getting help, yeah.
Like actual therapeutic help.
And I worked with a wonderfultherapist who was recovered
herself, and that was reallypowerful to me because I
didn'tilles heel, so to speak,so you've got to manage it.
And she said, no, actually youcan be fully recovered and it
(11:56):
can be fully behind you and youdon't have to worry about it
coming back.
And that changed the trajectoryof everything.
And I am one of those peopletoday who can say, yeah, I'm
fully recovered.
I know a ton of people who arefully recovered.
It is possible, yes.
April Snow (12:12):
I mean, what a sense of hope.
Oh, I don't have to constantlybe carrying this around with me.
Josie Munroe (12:17):
Yeah, yeah, and when we don't believe that full
recovery is possible, you don'treally try as hard, you know
you're not going to put your allinto something that's sort of a
mediocre outcome Of course Imean.
April Snow (12:31):
It'd be so discouraging to know I'm never
going to get fully through thisRight.
Why should I work so hard orput so much into myself?
Josie Munroe (12:40):
Yeah.
April Snow (12:41):
But having that person, that therapist, say
here's what's possible, you canstep aside from this, you can
heal.
Yeah, need that so much mm-hmm.
Absolutely so, now that youhave these two layers of your
experience having had an eatingdisorder, being highly sensitive
(13:02):
person, and now working withclients in this space what link
do you see between having thetrait and then developing an
eating disorder?
Are there connections there?
Josie Munroe (13:12):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
There are certain factors thatwill predispose somebody to an
eating disorder.
Hsps have a lot of those, butalso factors that we call
maintaining factors, which keepthe eating disorder going once
it's taken root.
So also common with a lot ofHSPs, and I'll go over a couple
(13:33):
of each of those.
April Snow (13:34):
Yeah, that'd be helpful, thank you.
Josie Munroe (13:36):
Yeah for predisposing factors.
One of the big ones is harmavoidance.
Yes, being highly sensitive, wecan really easily, with our
depth of processing, spotpotential areas of harm of harm
and then what we might do toavoid that.
And of course the feeling ofharm, whatever it is, is very
(14:00):
deep, very painful, and for alot of HSPs harm avoidance
starts to show up as self-doubt,which of course, as I know you
and every other HSP has heardyou're so sensitive, you're too
sensitive, you're overreacting.
It's not that big a deal.
Of course we'll start to doubtourselves and mistrust our own
(14:24):
signals, so kind of piggybackingoff of harm avoidance is
perfectionism.
April Snow (14:31):
And those go hand in hand.
Josie Munroe (14:33):
The HSP can also really easily spot how something
can be made better yes, betterin quotes, yes.
And to avoid that potentialharm, they'll seek perfectionism
, and sometimes that's throughthe way they interact with food,
or will focus on a number onthe scale.
But perfectionism is so trickybecause it's self-perpetuating
(14:57):
and when your goal is actuallysomething that's unattainable,
you've got plenty ofopportunities to beat yourself
up under the guise of if I hatemyself enough, I can turn into
magically a version of myselfthat then I can love.
Very dangerous game.
April Snow (15:14):
Very.
Josie Munroe (15:15):
Because that's not how it works.
Right, right, yeah, and let'ssee.
So one of the maintainingfactors, like I talked about
with my own experience, is thatneed for relief or distraction,
and I think highly sensitivepeople are always going to be
(15:35):
looking for ways to cope in thisoverwhelming world, whether
they find healthy ways or not isanother story.
But food is a really easy copingtool for the management of food
right.
It's readily available and Iwant to say about that, like
(15:56):
using food to cope is okay,there's nothing inherently wrong
with that, but it's importantto have more tools than that.
April Snow (16:05):
Right, right.
Josie Munroe (16:06):
We need other options, yeah yeah, just like
how distracting is a valid formof coping, but we want more than
just distracting in our toolbox, right yeah, so that need for
relief is definitely a bigmaintaining factor.
Another one is isolation, andhighly sensitive people don't
(16:29):
necessarily isolate.
But we have that need to taketime to ourselves for sensory
rest, just to sort of recharge.
And if there's an eatingdisorder in the mix or starting
to take root, that healthy alonetime can be hijacked and turned
into isolation, because aneating disorder really needs
(16:49):
isolation to thrive and in thatisolation is where it starts to
become a companion of sorts,like we talked about earlier
with the relationship piece.
So somebody might want to getrid of their eating disorder but
at the same time they feelcompelled to protect it at all
costs no, no matter what,because it's a companion in a
(17:11):
lot of ways.
April Snow (17:12):
Which it sounds like you found yourself doing.
That, you know, pushing othersaway, making that kind of the
primary center to protect thistool.
Even though it becamemaladaptive At first, it was
really helping you.
Yeah, that makes sense and Icould see how, as you're talking
about this, you know findingrelief, taking alone time, just
(17:33):
kind of reframing those intodifferent words.
But those are things we're toldand we know we need as hsps.
So on the surface it could betricky oh I'm just doing my
self-care, but then thatactually that could turn dark,
yeah, be different.
It could be a problem, and Icould see how that could be a
slippery road for folks.
Josie Munroe (17:55):
Right, yeah, I mean, there were several times
where I can recall tellingmyself like, oh, I just need to
do this to take care of myself.
Yeah, and that's not what washappening?
You get really good at not onlylying to other people, but
lying to yourself.
April Snow (18:10):
Absolutely.
Josie Munroe (18:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
April Snow (18:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
And there's that shadow side,that part that ends up hurting
you in the end.
I want to just kind of breakapart something you said in the
middle there which I think isimportant.
Actually, nice to hear thatit's okay if food is used for
coping sometimes.
Yeah, okay if food is used forcoping sometimes, yeah, yeah.
How do we differentiate ahealthy use of I don't know if
(18:40):
that's the right word, but kindof a balanced use of food as
coping versus maybe aproblematic use of food as
coping.
Josie Munroe (18:43):
How do we know the difference?
Yeah, so the first thing, likeI said, is making sure you've
got other tools and being ableto take a look at whether or not
you're actually using thoseother tools.
If you find that you're relyingprimarily on food or the
control of food, that's a reallygood indicator and usually the
first indicator.
And then it's how is thisrelationship with food and
(19:04):
that's one of the first things Ilike to explore with clients is
your relationship with food andyour relationship with your
body.
How is that impacting otherareas of your life?
So, if you find that you'returning to food to cope but
maybe it's okay, but you'returning down opportunities to
connect with people, that mightbe an issue.
(19:25):
Yeah, that could be something tolook at.
Yeah, through the recoveryprocess, you really learn to
turn to people rather than youreating disorder behaviors, to
get through life, which isreally important, absolutely
Right, needing to have thosepeople you can lean on to
co-regulate with anddiversifying.
April Snow (19:46):
How are you taking care of yourself and making sure
that you're not just leaning onfood?
That's, I think, an easy way tokind of check yourself.
Yeah, am I just leaning on foodor am I reaching out to friends
, or am I using some of my otherpractices?
Josie Munroe (20:02):
Yeah, yeah.
And another good tool to sortof assess that relationship
there is to see how large theimpact is.
Like let's say, if you'restruggling with compulsive
eating and you're at like a 10out of 10 of anger and rage one
day and you start compulsivelyeating and suddenly you're down
to a zero, that's a huge jumpwhen other coping tools usually
(20:27):
healthy ones aren't that big.
You might go from a 10 to a 5and that's wonderful.
But if you've got this hugechange, that also might be a
clue that you're utilizingsomething that isn't great for
you.
April Snow (20:43):
It's too drastic.
Yeah, you mentionedcompulsively eating and you also
mentioned restricting.
Are there other waysproblematic eating can show up
that we maybe we wouldn't thinkof?
Josie Munroe (20:58):
and celebrated in our culture.
That's true.
So you know, dieting is one ofthe first things people turn to
when they want to get healthierquotations.
And that's really scary becausedieting is one of the quickest
(21:24):
ways into an eating disorder.
It sets somebody up so severelyfor really damaging that
relationship with food.
So we might be looking at happy,successful people and thinking,
oh, they're just reallydisciplined with their food, but
internally they're really rigidor very chaotic.
Maybe they eat in secret orthey're constantly going through
(21:48):
a little Rolodex of numbers intheir head.
We just don't know that.
You know, sometimes that showsup in compulsive exercise.
So we might see athletes and go, wow, they're just so dedicated
to their sport.
But no, they're actuallycompelled to do this and that's
an illness, right, right, it'sreally scary.
(22:09):
And then we've got all thesehealth fads.
You know, juice cleanses andfasting, disordered eating can
look like so many differentthings.
So it's really.
It can be hard to spot, notonly as a clinician but for an
individual as well.
It's really easy to say,actually I'm fine, because
everybody else in my friendgroup does this.
(22:29):
No big deal.
April Snow (22:31):
That's true.
If the people around you arepracticing the same type of
eating, it could be really easyto normalize it, but it sounds
like you could get under theactual actions by looking at the
motivation.
What's happening in the bigpicture?
Are you avoiding?
Are you controlling?
Is there something you'retrying to kind of get right, so
(22:54):
get perfect, and are yousacrificing other areas of your
life to continue this?
yeah be causing some significantharm in the process great
question to be asking, yeahexactly, yeah, exactly, and I
appreciate you helping kind oftease this apart for the
sensitive person.
So HSPs could be verypredisposed to falling into an
(23:18):
eating disorder or dysfunctionaleating because we're trying to
reduce the amount of feeling ordiscomfort that we're having.
The amount of feeling ordiscomfort that we're having and
I've seen a lot of clients showup in my office who have a
history of this right, whetherit's well or currently happening
, but they're using it to try toself-soothe right, try to get a
(23:42):
sense of relief.
Josie Munroe (23:44):
Yeah, so we're often we can't fault somebody
for that Exactly, we reallycan't.
April Snow (23:49):
It's hard to be constantly living in discomfort
or overwhelm, but yeah,expanding what's available.
So I want to move on to thenext part of the conversation,
which is how do we then supportfolks who are in this space and
they're highly sensitive?
So how does being highlysensitive impact the treatment
(24:10):
process?
Josie Munroe (24:12):
Yeah Well, I think , first and foremost, there's a
really harmful belief that afull recovery looks a certain
way for everybody.
That's not true, and this hasoverall gotten a lot better, I
think, in like the last decade,but there's still a lot of work
(24:33):
to be done in the treatmentworld.
So just to give you a personalexample when I was in treatment,
some of the sensory issues thatI had and still have with food
were confused with intentionaleating disorder behaviors and
(24:53):
outside of the sort of the majorrestriction purging binging,
when I talk about eatingdisorder behaviors that also
includes what we sometimes calltable behaviors.
So that might be cutting foodinto small pieces, taking really
small bites, eating quickly orslowly, not wanting food to
touch.
And for me it just happened tobe that I have sort of a limit
(25:19):
on how much of a soft food I caneat at once.
Yes, when I was in treatment Ihad to restore weight.
So I remember for breakfast,almost every morning, I would be
given this huge plate ofscrambled eggs plus some oatmeal
, plus some other things, andwhen I would reach that
threshold it was game over.
(25:41):
Even when I felt like I wantedto continue eating, you know, I
had my hunger cues back.
I just couldn't do it.
And I remember crying andsaying, please, like, give me
toast, give me an apple, give mesomething.
I just couldn't do it.
And I remember crying andsaying, please, like, give me
toast, give me an apple, give mesomething.
I just can't do this anymore.
And they would say I'm sorry,but like, that's your eating
disorder talking.
You have to push through that.
And I didn't have the wordsthen to say no, it's not, you
(26:04):
need to pay attention to this.
I would just cry and sufferthrough it.
But I think you know this getsrecognized a lot with the eating
disorder ARFID which isavoidant, restrictive food
intake disorder.
That's where somebody will sortof say, oh, this person probably
has sensory issues with food.
But it can occur in all eatingdisorder presentations but it
(26:29):
isn't necessarily looked for, sothat gets missed a lot.
April Snow (26:35):
That's got to be incredibly problematic for a
sensitive person because thereare some very legitimate sensory
issues that come up with eating, like you're saying, with
texture, temperature, so manyother pieces, right, and to have
that be dismissed is, I mean,just perpetuating the
invalidation we've experienced.
Right, saying, yeah, you knowthis isn't what you're really
(26:58):
experiencing, and then thatmistrust, that self-mistrust,
starts to build again.
Yeah, and at that time youdidn't know you were highly
sensitive, correct by that time.
Correct, yeah, right.
Yeah, no idea, yeah, no, no,correct, yeah Right.
Josie Munroe (27:09):
Yeah, no idea.
April Snow (27:10):
Yeah, no, no language for that.
Josie Munroe (27:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So one of the other problemswith a typical treatment
approach when it comes toworking with HSPs if it's not
individual therapy, a lot ofpeople who have eating disorders
are going to end up needingmore than just 50 minute
sessions once a week to getbetter.
So treatment centers andprograms generally are in a
(27:35):
large group setting.
So if you can imagine a roomfull of sensitive folks sitting
together hearing about otherpeople's eating disorder
struggles, processing traumatogether, mirror neurons are
firing all over the place andnot only that.
But there's the tendency to fallinto a comparison trap there.
(27:57):
Sure, oh, you know, this personhas had it so much worse than I
have.
Why am I sitting here with aneating disorder?
I don't deserve this spot.
I don't deserve this bed inthis treatment center, you know
my life isn't bad enough.
And that's so dangerous, sodangerous, and it's exhausting,
(28:18):
really exhausting, and alongwith what else is exhausting, is
the sensory overwhelm thatcomes with exposure therapy,
which is really natural in atreatment setting that you're
exposed to what you fearmultiple times a day.
You have to get through thatand most treatment programs are
designed to be really packed.
(28:39):
You've got several sessions,groups, activities back to back
to back to back to back, so thatleaves little to no downtime
for sensory rest, for alone timeand, generally speaking,
somebody with an eating disorderis looked at as not capable of
being alone because they'regoing to turn to their eating
disorder, which I understand theimportance of that, you know
(29:02):
wanting to keep somebody safefrom their behaviors.
But at the same time I think weneed to find a middle ground
there.
April Snow (29:11):
Right Cause you mentioned.
You know you mentioned yourisolation can be dangerous.
But then how do you get thatprocessing recharge time that
desperately need as an HSP, as aclinician who works in this
area, is there anything you'vefound that helps to find that
balance?
How do we satisfy both needs ofkeeping attention on the person
(29:31):
who's in recovery but alsoallowing their nervous system to
get what it?
Josie Munroe (29:35):
needs.
Yeah, I did a webinar about howto manage being an HSP if you
go into residential treatmentand I ended up creating a
document that somebody couldgive to their treatment team of
all the ways that they couldsupport somebody.
And thinking about back to mytime in treatment, being able to
go into a room maybe that'svisible, but kind of separated
(29:59):
from other people, or maybeoutside sitting under a tree
where somebody could see youthrough a window, but you still
have that space to just breathe.
I think it's really importantand we're humans and to give
somebody the benefit of thedoubt that maybe they can be
alone and be safe until you'reproven wrong.
(30:21):
I don't think it's fair to justassume that of everybody.
It's really harmful, dismissive.
April Snow (30:29):
Right, it can be very dehumanizing to not be
trusted, to be with yourself andI understand there's some of
that that can be dangerous whenyou're in the recovery process.
But yeah, you still need to bea human, be with yourself at
least for a few moments.
Just hearing your experienceand thinking about the recovery
(30:49):
process, you could just see itcould be kind of looping back
into dysregulation as you'retrying to get healing.
Just the sensory overload alonewith the food textures and
being in constant contact withpeople and maybe experiencing
vicarious trauma through theseother stories and then feeling
like you don't deserve helpyourself through these other
(31:14):
stories and then feel like youdon't deserve help yourself.
This is a lot to process.
It's a lot to physically manage, sensory wise.
And can it ever?
Josie Munroe (31:20):
is yeah, it's tough, hard for everybody and
really hard, I think, forsensitive folks.
Yeah, and what's sad about thatis and this goes beyond just
highly sensitive people, butneuroddivergent folks in general
can get left behind or they getlabeled as noncompliant, which
is really painful.
(31:40):
Part of my sensory stuff intreatment was that my body
responded to the increase incalories very sensitive to that
by developing reactivehyperglycemia, and I didn't know
really what that was then, butI was getting accused daily of
purging and I wasn't.
April Snow (32:01):
I was sort of your model patient.
As most HSPs are right Even toour own detriment.
What is hyperreactivehypoglycemia?
Josie Munroe (32:11):
So it was just a reaction of my blood sugar, like
when I was having suddenly anincreased intake In between
meals.
I would get really shakysuddenly and and that was looked
at as like, oh, you must bedoing something wrong.
Are you purging, are youexercising in secret?
And I was not.
I was doing everything I couldto get better and that was
(32:33):
really sad for me because Istarted feeling some anger
toward the way my body wasresponding.
I was sort of distrusting whatwas happening there.
April Snow (32:43):
Sure, I mean, your body is kind of getting you in
trouble.
Josie Munroe (32:48):
Yeah, it was sensitive and it probably needed
to work up to that intake alittle bit slower.
April Snow (32:55):
Yes, absolutely, the process can be so rushed.
I was just thinking about, asyou're taking in more food and
maybe gaining just a little bitof weight or just having
different reactions in your bodythan you're used to as an HSP
you're noticing all that as sucha subtle level and how that
could kick off a lot of anxietyor worry or emotion.
Josie Munroe (33:14):
Yeah, HSP is a really in tune or can be out
there can be really in tune withwhat's happening Weight rise,
the jump from hungry to totallyfull can sometimes be like that
an instant drop of a dime yes,would you say.
April Snow (33:36):
That also contributes to this issue where
we're noticing our body at sucha subtle level like even just
feeling slightly like we have alittle bit more weight or
something's off.
Does that contribute?
Josie Munroe (33:51):
yeah, I would say that's another one of those both
predisposing and maintainingfactors and having sort of
increased interceptive awarenessyes really in touch with.
April Snow (34:02):
Oh like, I'm a little bit bloated today panic,
right, and, and it could be at alevel that another, if you
weren't highly sensitive youwouldn't even notice that change
in your body, but we wouldright, yeah, and that can set up
kind of a chain reaction, yeah.
So, josie, what else haven't wegotten to today feels important
(34:22):
for you to share?
We've talked a bit about yourown journey and why hsps can be
predisposed to struggling witheating disorders and kind of
what the recovery process lookslike.
Some of the hardships Iactually wonder could we talk
about.
Are there ways that HSPs couldthrive or do well If we could
talk about the flip side?
Josie Munroe (34:44):
in recovery.
Yeah, I think that's one of themost important things is that
when you can start to embraceyour sensitivity, it opens you
up to the gifts that areactually already inherent in you
to thrive in recovery and inlife beyond recovery.
But as long as you're fightingit and trying to squash it, you
(35:05):
can't really access those gifts.
But typically, you know, an HSPis really good at taking a look
at themselves and they'reinterested in that introspection
, and that is really reallyhelpful in the recovery process
is to understand yourself, true,but to look at it through a
(35:33):
compassionate lens and go oh, Isee why I make that connection,
or I see why I turn to thisinstead of that.
Doing that with compassion ismagical.
And sensitive people with ourempathy.
If we can learn how to turn itaround toward ourselves, it's so
powerful.
April Snow (35:49):
Yes, it really is.
Josie Munroe (35:50):
We can give all that we give to others and turn
that back in, especially aswe're healing and recovering I
think the one thing that I wouldwant sensitive people to know
about all of this is that youdon't have to be any less
sensitive to fully recover.
April Snow (36:10):
Okay, so you don't have to not that you could, but
you don't have to change yoursensitivity or how much you
allow that to be expressed, torecover.
Josie Munroe (36:21):
Yeah, the eating disorder didn't develop because
you were highly sensitive,although maybe it developed as a
way to help you manage that,that you do not have to become
any less sensitive to get better.
April Snow (36:33):
I think that's an important distinction, because
we're saying that you know, hspscan easily fall into this as a
coping tool, but there's not adirect connection.
It's not that one goes with theother, it's just one path we
may go down to try to take careof ourselves.
Josie Munroe (36:50):
Right.
April Snow (36:50):
Yeah, down to try to take care of ourselves, right
yeah, now that you're on theother side, you're living as a
healed person, which is soinspiring.
What do you reach for now tosupport yourself?
People, yes.
Josie Munroe (37:05):
People first and foremost.
Yeah, nature is another onethat I think.
I mean I always knew that Iloved nature, but I think it
surprised me when I startedpaying attention to just how
healing it could be.
I like to turn to that taking alittle 10 minute walk in the
middle of my work days.
(37:25):
Ah, I look forward to it somuch.
You know, a couple of years agoleft Los Angeles and moved to
Vermont and that was a whole newchapter in my sensitivity.
I realized once I left the cityhow much I needed this quiet
and this really close connectionwith the trees and the
(37:47):
mountains and the seasons.
Yeah, it was a whole new levelof peace.
April Snow (37:55):
I love it.
My wife and I.
That's kind of our next plan,because I'm in California as
well right now and we're like wewant to go to Vermont, Just
slow things down.
That's so funny.
It's kind of the vision we'vebeen holding.
But, yeah, we need that peaceright, the rhythms right.
I think that's really importantfor us to have those
touchstones.
And, yeah, we need that, thatpeace right, the rhythms right.
I think that's really importantfor us to have those touchstones
and, yeah, there can beconnection in nature, there can
(38:19):
be healing in nature.
Josie Munroe (38:21):
Yeah, yeah, whether I'm alone or with other
people, nature is a companion inand of itself.
April Snow (38:28):
Absolutely, it really is.
You've given us a lot of hopetoday.
Thank you.
This is a topic that isimportant to explore in our
community.
I don't think it's one that'stalked about enough.
Josie Munroe (38:43):
Yeah, I agree.
April Snow (38:45):
Yeah, and you mentioned reminding the
sensitive folks out there thatthere is a possibility to heal
without changing yoursensitivity.
Is there anything else you wantto leave folks with?
Josie Munroe (38:59):
You can do it.
Yeah, I know it feels reallyhard and maybe impossible at
times, but it's not and yourbelief in yourself is really
what's going to change that.
That's right and you don't haveto do what's going to change
that.
That's right, and you don'thave to do it all at once.
Little baby steps.
April Snow (39:16):
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah, one step at a time, andas you share, it's a process,
right, allowing it to unfoldover.
Time is important.
Josie Munroe (39:27):
Yeah, and if we think about you know we're
healing our relationship withfood or our body or both.
That doesn't just end when youstop using behaviors.
Right, I still have arelationship with food that I
want to nurture and arelationship with my body that I
want to pay attention to andhonor.
That is the definition ofprocess, right there.
(39:48):
That part's lifelong, not thestruggle process right there.
April Snow (39:53):
That part's lifelong , not the struggle.
That's it Right.
The relationship continues.
Yeah, it's a healedrelationship.
Yeah, sounds like moresupportive relationship Totally.
Yes, I love that.
Well, thank you so much, josie.
This is lovely.
I just love connecting with youand learning about your
specialty, and I know that youhave a lot of helpful resources
(40:14):
for folks.
I'll be sure to share that yourwebsite, your social media.
You have recovery resources aswell.
Can you tell listeners a littlebit about your course?
Josie Munroe (40:23):
Yeah, so I've got a couple little courses out
there right now and more alwaysin the works because I found
that that's really enjoyable forme.
But there is one core workshopthat I think is really helpful
and that's called surviving tothriving understand your
sensitivity, unlock yourrecovery.
And that's going to go reallynicely with our conversation
today, because it takes a deeperdive into how sensitivity
(40:47):
shapes needing disorder and howhonoring your nature is really a
key component of getting better.
And that will actually, youknow, that course will actually
help somebody who might be in asimilar spot that I was.
Like I know I'm sensitive, butam I highly sensitive?
And this course can helpilluminate that as well.
(41:09):
And it's ideal not just forpeople going through eating
disorder recovery but forsupporters as well if they want
to learn more about sensitivityand how to support somebody.
April Snow (41:19):
Oh, that's wonderful .
I mean, hopefully, then you'rebringing people into your world
and having those support systemshelping you know, making sure
that you're not isolating.
I love that and maybe you caneven take it alongside your
support person.
Potentially is to work together.
Josie Munroe (41:38):
That's my hope.
April Snow (41:39):
Yeah, I love that.
That's such a great resource.
So you're I love it, you'rebringing the conversation right
into the forefront, right intothe fold, using it as a resource
.
Yeah, how healing is that?
Into the fold, using it as aresource.
Josie Munroe (41:52):
Yeah, how healing is that?
April Snow (41:53):
So healing, and I want that you know for everybody
that that is ultimately why Ibecame an eating disorder
therapist.
Thanks so much for joining meand Josie for today's
conversation.
What I hope you're taking awayis that it is possible to
(42:19):
redefine your relationship withfood and find other ways to
soothe your sensitive nervoussystem and build connection.
For more support, you can checkout Josie's new course
Surviving to Thriving.
Understand your Sensitivity andUnlock your Recovery at
yoursensitiverecoverycom or headto the link in the show notes.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
(42:40):
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSP resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
Strengths on Instagram, tiktokand YouTube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
(43:00):
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
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