February 11, 2025 • 42 mins
Do you have a difficult relationship with a parent? In this episode, I talk with Dr. Sharon Martin about cutting family ties and:
• The most common reasons most people cut ties with parents or close family members
• The difference between going low and no contact
• How common it is to second guess your decision to cut ties and what to do if that happens
• What to say to people who attempt to guilt you into making amends with a dysfunctional family member
• Navigating special occasions and finding healing after estrangement
Sharon is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, psychotherapist, and author specializing in helping adult children recover from difficult childhoods. She identifies as a Highly Sensitive Person and a recovering perfectionist. Sharon is the author of four books: The CBT Workbook for Perfectionism, The Better Boundaries Workbook, The Better Boundaries Guided Journal, and Cutting Ties with Your Parents.
Keep in touch with Sharon:
• Website: https://www.livewellwithsharonmartin.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr_sharon_martin
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sharonmartinlcsw
Resources Mentioned:
• Cutting Ties with Your Parents by Dr. Sharon Martin: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9781648483905
• The Better Boundaries Guided Journal by Dr. Sharon Martin: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9781648482755
• The Better Boundaries Workbook by Dr. Sharon Martin: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9781684037582
Thank you to Cozy Earth for sponsoring this episode.
Cozy Earth offers super soft and sustainably sourced bedding and loungewear. Use discount code SENSITIVE at checkout for up to 40% off. https://cozyearth.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Sharon Martin (00:00):
recognizing that you are doing something
that the rest of society istelling you is wrong.
So of course that socialpressure is going to add to the
second thoughts and theambivalence and the feeling like
I'm doing something wrong,those feelings of guilt all
super common.
It's a normal thing to feelthat way and it's not indicative
(00:22):
of it being the wrong choicefor you.
April Snow (00:33):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
(00:55):
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk with DrSharon Martin about when it's
necessary to make the difficultdecision to go low or no contact
with a parent or close familymember, how to navigate the
aftermath of this decision andwhat the healing process looks
like.
Sharon is a licensed clinicalsocial worker, psychotherapist
(01:16):
and author, specializing inhelping adult children recover
from difficult childhoods.
She identifies as a highlysensitive person and a
recovering perfectionist.
Sharon is the author of fourbooks the CBT Workbook for
Perfectionism, the BetterBoundaries Workbook, the Better
Boundaries Guided Journal andher latest Cutting Ties with
your Parents.
(01:36):
For more HSP resources and tosee behind the scenes video from
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
(01:59):
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in.
Welcome back, sharon.
(02:28):
Some listeners might rememberyou from episode 17.
We dove into the topic ofboundaries and we're now talking
about something adjacent tothat, about your new book
Cutting Ties with Parents,something that's personally
relatable to me, so I'm excitedto dive into this with you.
I did want to start off bydebunking a myth.
We often hear that peopleassume this is a decision taken
lightly, it's not thoughtthrough.
(02:49):
Could you share why most peoplecome to this decision that they
need to cut ties with a parentor even a close family member?
Dr. Sharon Martin (02:57):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
I am really excited to talkabout this topic and I think
this is a really good andimportant place for us to begin,
because there is a lot ofmisinformation that gets put out
into the world and I think,again, we see a lot of this on
social media, as we do on othertopics as well.
(03:18):
You know that there tends to bethis narrative that adult
children who cut ties with theirparents are doing something
that is selfish, it's mean, it'sa rash decision that they
haven't thought through, thatthey don't really have valid
reasons for it and that theyshould really just sort of get
(03:39):
with the program, be a part ofthe family.
And again, I think there's partof this narrative is this is
how everybody has done it in thepast is you just deal with the
family, no matter howdysfunctional it is, just show
up, care for your elderlyparents, if that's the situation
you're in, or put up with thefamily member that abused you as
(04:00):
a child.
And it really is this again,sort of this dysfunctional
narrative of just deal with itbecause they're your family.
And I'll tell you, I you know,as in writing this book, I did a
lot of research.
So I read all of the academicresearch that has been done
about why adult children cutties with their parents and I've
(04:20):
also been a therapist who hasworked with many, many adult
children who have been in thissituation over the years and the
answers are actuallysurprisingly consistent that
adult children almost always saythat they cut ties with their
parents or family because theyhave been abused, mistreated,
(04:42):
betrayed, not respected,rejected, not accepted for who
they are some variation on thatand so they feel like they have
been mistreated by theirfamilies, and this is typically
a pattern that began inchildhood, that their family did
not treat them well growing up,and has continued into
(05:04):
adulthood.
So they are now grown adults inrelationship with their parents
or other family members andthey continue to be disrespected
and criticized and put down andget emotionally abused,
sometimes physically abused,right, so it's not a healthy
relationship for them.
There are, of course, someother reasons.
(05:24):
I would say again, this ismostly what we're talking about
here is abusive or what we oftennowadays sort of call toxic
relationships, but certainlythere are situations where there
is an adult child who has amajor mental health problem or a
substance problem.
That can lead to thedeterioration of the
relationship and then cuttingoff contact with their families.
(05:48):
And there are also situationsthat I think we hear more about
now today of just differingvalues between adult children
and their family of origin,which, again, I think if we
really got into that, we wouldsee that there's an overlap
there between the differingvalues and the feeling
mistreated.
It's not simply that wedisagree, it's the way that that
(06:10):
plays out in the relationship.
So that's really what adultchildren are saying is this is
years in the making.
For me, this has been a longtime coming.
I have thought about this, Ihave tried various amounts of
contact, I have tried differentways of expressing my grievances
, of asking for things to change, and it hasn't changed.
(06:32):
And again, so not something thatis just a one-off that we're
talking about for the most part.
I think sometimes it feels likethat to the rest of the family
which, again, if we really gotinto it, we would start to see
that there's a communicationbreakdown such that the adult
child has been trying to saythere's a problem and people
(06:53):
have not been listening, theyhave not wanted to hear it, they
have minimized it, they havenot wanted to deal with it,
which, again, is very much ahallmark of a lot of
dysfunctional families is wejust don't deal with problems.
We scapegoat somebody, we shovethe problem under the rug and
try to pretend like everything'sfine here.
April Snow (07:12):
Exactly, this problem didn't just begin.
This is a years long problemwhere the child often has tried
multiple times to be heard, tobe seen, to shift the pattern of
what's happening in the family,and it's often not just
happening with the parents, it'shappening with the grandparents
, but the rest of the family aswell.
And yeah, we've been told to,like you said, get with the
(07:33):
program right, just follow theline, do what you're told, look
the other way and you get to apoint where there's a limit.
You can only take so much.
And it starts to then impactyour own mental health, your own
sanity, your own physicalhealth even, and you have to
maybe think okay, I need tochange something.
Dr. Sharon Martin (07:49):
Yes, and it often starts interfering with
other relationships that theadult child has with their
partner or with their ownchildren.
I often see things reach abreaking point sometimes when
somebody has their own childrenand they say I don't want to
repeat this pattern, I don'twant my parents to do to my
children what they did to me.
Or again, I see that there areproblems here and I want to
(08:13):
protect my kids from them aswell.
April Snow (08:15):
Absolutely, you want to break that cycle, and the
only way to do that is to makethe hard decision and
potentially become the scapegoator the problem person in the
family.
Yes, the black sheep, the blacksheep.
Dr. Sharon Martin (08:26):
Thank you.
April Snow (08:27):
Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Sharon Martin (08:28):
I know we have scapegoats and black sheep.
What's up with that?
Yeah, and one of the thingsthat I always say to my clients
because a lot of them are thescapegoat or the black sheep of
the family is often the personwho's in that role, the one who
has been cast out and reallyvilified, is often the
(08:48):
healthiest person emotionally inthat family because they are
the one who is calling out theproblems that nobody else wants
to acknowledge, which againmeans you can't be a part of the
family group in the same waybecause you're over here saying,
hey, something's got to change.
This is not healthy, this isabusive, we've got issues here,
(09:09):
but of course that is a healthything to do.
Right, this is how we getourselves mentally healthy.
This is how we getrelationships healthier.
As we acknowledge problems, wefigure out how to solve them if
possible, and then things canchange.
But if we don't, then we justright.
That's the being stuck in thecycle.
It just goes on and on and onthat nobody's doing anything
(09:31):
about it.
April Snow (09:32):
Exactly, and to maintain your own health you do
have to break that cycle andthen risk disrupting the family.
Does that mean that you're thenlosing your other family
members?
This is something I'm alwaystrying to figure out.
Do you have to then cut tieswith other folks who maybe don't
understand your decision, oryou're then risking being in
contact with a family member youdon't want to be with, so then
(09:52):
you're kind of opting out of thefamily system altogether.
Dr. Sharon Martin (09:56):
Well, it's complicated and it's not the
same for everybody, but, to behonest, I think people need to
understand that that is apossibility, not necessarily
because you have decided.
If I cut ties with my parents,I also have to cut ties with my
grandparents or my siblings.
But sometimes they cut tieswith you because, again, when
(10:18):
you're the one who isessentially disrupting the
family system, you arechallenging the hierarchy in the
family and the power dynamics.
That means that oftentimes theperson who has the most power so
we'll just call this theabusive person in the family for
our purposes right now, right,they feel challenged because you
(10:40):
are again, you're calling itout and you're sort of setting
that ultimate boundary of sayingI'm not putting up with this,
I'm going to opt out of this,I'm going to distance myself or
have no contact with you.
They will then try to get therest of the family members on
their side and again scapegoatyou and say you're the problem,
and this is what we will see assort of the smear campaign.
(11:03):
Oftentimes people will talkabout this where there's gossip,
there's rumors, they're badmouthing you, they're really
just making up often a lot ofjust unbelievable stuff about
you.
Well, I shouldn't say it'sunbelievable because some people
do believe it and that's whyit's so hurtful and dangerous,
but I mean it's unbelievable inthe sense that it's completely
unfounded things.
It's unbelievable in the sensethat it's completely unfounded
(11:25):
things but for the very specificpurposes of damaging you and
your reputation and trying toget the rest of the family to
again cut ties with you, and Iwould say that really is is an
effort to punish you forstanding up to them, because
that feels like that's, you know, again going against everything
about the way this familysystem is trying to operate.
(11:47):
So anyway, with that being said, I would say it also depends on
the strength and the type ofrelationship that you had with
other family members prior tocutting ties.
It's not impossible to maintainrelationships with some family
members.
Sometimes you can do thatseparately.
(12:07):
You know so.
For example, if it was theholidays and you opted out of
the main family, get together.
Maybe it's possible for you todo something a different time
with your sister.
Or if it's a family wedding andyou've decided that you're not
going to go to that again, maybethere's a way for you to
(12:31):
celebrate that couple apart fromthe main family gatherings and
celebrations.
So sometimes we can do that.
You know, I would encouragepeople, if that's important to
them, to try to figure out waysto maintain those relationships.
But of course I think it'simportant that we're realistic
and understanding that sometimes, because the way family
relationships are interconnected, that we do lose connections
with other people as well.
April Snow (12:52):
Absolutely, and, as you said, sometimes it's not our
choice.
Other people are going tobuckle down and want to preserve
that family system.
Yeah, so you have to have folkswho are willing to step outside
of it.
You mentioned the phrase nocontact.
What's the difference betweenno contact and low contact?
Dr. Sharon Martin (13:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, no contact, I would say,is pretty much what it sounds
like, where you have said, right, there's nothing, we are not
going to see each other inperson, we're not going to have
any form of communication orinteraction.
This is usually, you know, themost extreme.
So it might include blockingphone numbers, blocking people
(13:27):
on social media, social mediaand again, sometimes it is so
that you're not having contactwith that person directly, but
also you don't want to begetting any information about
them that's coming in, because,again, it can be very upsetting
and very hurtful to be seeingwhat they are doing or what they
are saying online or in otherforums.
(13:50):
And then low contact issomething in between of fully
engaged in the relationship andhaving no contact.
And really probably the mostaccurate way for us to think
about family estrangement is ona spectrum that it is very
common, I would say the mostcommon scenario really is that
people have varying amounts ofcontact with their family over
(14:15):
time.
That ebbs and flows, so we havea little contact, we have more
contact, something happens andthen we pull back and there's
less, or there might be a yearor two even of no contact, and
then something changes and youdecide I'm going to give it
another try, or it's grandma'sfuneral and I really want to go,
and so then I, you know, havesome contact.
(14:37):
So the idea of completely nocontact is certainly an option
and it works and it holds forsome people I would say, forever
.
But I would say the far morecommon is really that there's
this shifting of you know, someflexibility in that, but again
with the specific intention thatyou are going to be mindful
(15:00):
about how much contact you haveand you're constantly evaluating
is this working for me, havingthis much contact?
You know, has something changedand it makes sense for me to
have more contact.
Is this working out or is itnot, and do I need to pull back?
So yeah, so it really oftenchanges for people and I think
(15:21):
sometimes that's just helpful toknow that that's really common.
So if you set out thinking, okay, I'm cutting ties, I'm not
going to have contact with thisperson or people, and then you
end up having some contact,that's not a failure on your
part, right?
That doesn't happen.
The end goal is not necessarilyI should be having no contact
(15:41):
with somebody who has beenhurtful for me.
It is figuring out what makessense for you, how much capacity
do you have for being in thisrelationship at this moment?
And again, that changes forpeople.
I just call it like youremotional bandwidth, like, do
you have the ability, do youhave the coping skills, do you
(16:02):
have the support system?
What else is going on in yourlife?
And again, if you're thinkingabout a specific event, you
might say, okay, well, thisholiday season I really don't
have the bandwidth.
There's a lot of other thingsgoing on in my life, in the
world.
I just can't do it.
April Snow (16:19):
That might not be the case a year or two years
from now, and so if thingschange again, either with you or
with the family, you knowthings can change with the
relationship and the amount ofcontact as well you know, things
can change with therelationship and the amount of
contact as well, and it'shelpful to know there's
flexibility and you get todecide to lean in or pull away,
depending on what's going on,and you may want to break that
(16:42):
no contact.
So you get to attend a funeral,a wedding, or you may not.
And I love that flexibility ofhow am I doing in the moment,
what capacity emotionalbandwidth do I have, and I can
decide there.
How am I doing in the moment,what capacity, emotional
bandwidth do I have, and I candecide there.
Let's say you're starting tosecond guess your decision.
What does that mean when that'shappening?
Dr. Sharon Martin (16:58):
Okay.
Well, again, I would say it'sreally common, completely normal
, to be ambivalent about it, andit definitely doesn't mean that
you're making the wrongdecision or that you're doing
something wrong.
I really think about theambivalence as a function of
there's a lot at stake, andanytime you're making a big
(17:21):
decision where there's a lot atstake, it's normal to have
doubts.
You're going to second guessyourself.
I mean, even just think aboutif you were going to make a
complete career change or moveacross the country.
It would be completely normalto have second thoughts, even
like people getting married.
It's very common to have coldfeet.
Right Doesn't mean it's thewrong thing to do.
(17:44):
And then the other thing hereis that you're doing something
that is really going against thegrain.
There's a lot of socialpressure, as we mentioned
earlier, to stay engaged withthe family system and so
recognizing again that you aredoing something that the rest of
society is telling you is wrong.
(18:05):
So of course, that socialpressure is going to add to the
second thoughts and theambivalence and the feeling like
I'm doing something wrong, I'mdoing something bad, those
feelings of guilt all supercommon.
So, again, I think it's helpfulto frame that as just it's a
normal thing to feel that wayand it's not indicative of it
(18:26):
being the wrong choice for you.
Certainly, it's helpful tounderstand why you're making the
choice, and I think talkingabout that with a safe person or
writing it down can be reallyhelpful in getting the clarity
that you need, because, again,the ambivalence may linger there
(18:49):
, but it's still good for you tosay, okay, I know why I've
gotten to this point, I know whyI'm making this decision.
So when somebody says to youyou know what's wrong with you,
why are you doing that?
They question your decision,they put the guilt trip on you.
You don't necessarily need toexplain it to them or justify it
to them, but you want to knowinside yourself that I've
(19:13):
thought this through, I've giventhis a lot of thought, I've
reflected on it, I've talked itover with my dear friend or my
therapist or my coach or aspiritual advisor whoever that
might be for you and I know thatI have exhausted all reasonable
options here.
I've given it my best shot andthat doesn't mean that I need to
(19:36):
keep giving it my best shot forthe rest of my life.
Right, it is okay to say thisis not working for me and that's
a reasonable conclusion to cometo.
And again, I think if we framethis as this is something that I
am doing for my own well-beingand I deserve to be happy and
healthy and to be free ofrelationships that are toxic and
(20:00):
hurtful and harmful to me, youknow, then we can start to give
ourselves the permission thatwill help lessen the ambivalence
.
But again, I would say, don'tbe concerned if that ambivalence
and those second guessescontinue for quite a long time.
It's really such a painfuldecision, such a painful
(20:20):
situation to have been in anddifficult.
But everything that led up toit has been really painful and
difficult.
And that's again years andyears worth of challenges and
people putting you down oftenand second-guessing you.
(20:41):
That for a lot of folks who arein this situation, they have
also really been essentiallytrained from a very young age
not to trust their own feelings,not to trust their instincts,
not to feel like their needs arevalid or important.
So again, we're working againsta lot of the things that we
(21:01):
learned about ourselves and sothat can be a pretty lengthy
process of undoing some of thatand it can come but recognize
that if you're just fresh atthis of you know, thinking about
how much contact you want tohave or considering pulling back
.
You know that there are anumber of things that are
working against you in terms ofjust feeling super confident
(21:22):
about it.
April Snow (21:23):
Right right, it's helpful to know that that doubt
is natural.
It makes sense, given just thegravity of the decision.
And I appreciate you saying theother piece, which is you're
going up against a lot ofmessaging and years of
conditioning that you don't talkabout it, you don't disrupt the
system, you just kind of get inline your needs, don't get to
(21:44):
take up space at the forefront.
So just know there's a lot ofunlearning to do and that takes
time, makes sense.
Dr. Sharon Martin (21:50):
Yeah absolutely.
April Snow (21:51):
You mentioned that you don't have to explain
yourself to other people, butwhat about those family members
or those people who really leaninto the guilt to make amends
Like, oh, that's your mother,you're going to regret it later.
You know they're doing the bestthey can.
How do we navigate thoseconversations?
Dr. Sharon Martin (22:09):
Well, I think , as you're getting at here is
there are some people who arejust going to keep at it.
The way that you're approachingit is hurtful.
(22:34):
You know something along thoselines, and so that there is a
very clear message of sayingthis is a decision that I have
made.
And again, this is wheresometimes, even if you feel some
doubt, still you want toproject out that you have more
confidence in it and say this isa decision that I've made for
myself.
You know, I appreciate yourconcern, but I really don't want
to talk about it with you.
Or I'll let you know if I wantyour input or your advice, but
(22:56):
right now I've got it covered.
Or you can play around with thephrases and when doing this, it
can be really helpful to writedown some sample scripts for
yourself so that it feels likeit's authentic, a way that you
would say it to somebody and orpractice it with somebody that
you feel safe doing that, sothat when those inevitable
(23:20):
conversations and comments comeup because it is for most people
it's fairly predictable If Iask them who is going to
challenge you, who's going topush your boundaries on this,
who's going to put the guilttrip on you.
They know who it's going to bemost likely, and so be prepared
for it.
I think that's your bestdefense here is have a plan,
(23:40):
know what you're going to say.
You can say it in a direct andclear way, but also with
kindness.
It doesn't need to be harsh ormean.
And again, I think when we haveplanned it out and we feel
prepared, we're much more likelyto say it in a nice way than it
to just be that reflexive inthe moment.
You know, I can't believeyou're saying this to me again
(24:03):
for the 20th time here.
I am asking you to please leaveme to figure this out for
myself.
So certainly there, I thinkthere's a group of people that
we need to have that real clear,firm boundary with and just
basically be saying you knowthis is off limits, right?
The gray area, of course, ismuch harder to figure out, which
(24:23):
is are there some people inyour life that it does make
sense to explain a little bitmore about the situation?
And I say this because I thinkthere are often some people who
truly are well-meaning and theyhave families that are
functional and they truly cannotunderstand that families could
(24:49):
treat people the way your familyhas treated you, and so it's
like they just you know you'rekind of speaking a different
language to them almost, and sofor these folks, sometimes
sharing a little bit more aboutwhat your experiences have been
can help them to understand andthen they can be more
(25:10):
compassionate towards you.
But again, it's a veryvulnerable thing to do because
certainly any time that we aretalking about painful
experiences, abuse that we haveexperienced, there is a chance
that people will not understandthat they would minimize that or
even potentially use it againstyou.
So we want to weigh thatdecision carefully.
(25:32):
The upside, of course, is thatit can also bring a lot of
closeness to a relationship.
When we share somethingvulnerable about ourselves,
right, and then often the otherperson will reciprocate and
share something more vulnerableabout them, and then, right, we
develop this emotionalconnection.
That can be quite powerful.
But I hope that people don'tend up in a situation where they
(25:54):
are really just feeling likeI'm needing to justify my
reasons, because that's not whatwe're talking about here.
We're really talking about ifit's a situation where we can
genuinely be building closenessand connection in a trusting way
, rather than I'm giving you thelist of all the things that my
parents did to me and you'reover there saying it doesn't
(26:16):
sound like that was that badright.
If you start getting that vibefrom somebody, I would
definitely say pull back.
This relationship isn't in aplace where this is going to be
helpful for you.
April Snow (26:29):
Yeah, it's true that some people are going to
approach with curiosity, wantingto understand.
But we may have that reactionthat, oh, everyone is trying to
push my boundaries here.
But that's not true.
Some people might just want tobe getting to know you
understanding, because they didhave a different experience.
But, yeah, look out for thosemarkers of safety.
Are they curious or are theyquestioning or minimizing?
(26:52):
That's a good way to check inand see is this somebody I want
to share with, Because this is avery vulnerable part of your
life?
Dr. Sharon Martin (26:59):
Yeah, I like that way of phrasing it.
Are they curious?
And then you're constantlyevaluating their response.
Right Again, share somethingsmaller and see how they respond
and then, if it goes well, youcan share more, that's true,
just slowly open up differentlevels.
April Snow (27:17):
Yeah, yeah, right.
Dr. Sharon Martin (27:18):
Exactly.
We don't want to just startwith everything all at once if
we're not sure about how thisperson is going to react and if
they're going to be able to besupportive Absolutely.
April Snow (27:29):
So we've talked about the hardships of making
this decision, of communicatingit to others.
Is there a point that we get tofeel acceptance, we get to feel
some peace with it?
What does that look like?
Dr. Sharon Martin (27:51):
transition because, you're right, we have
talked so much about howchallenging it is and how
painful it all can be, butobviously, once we start to
truly accept the reality of ourfamily situation, it then allows
us to move forward or have somefreedom from the situation.
Right, there's sort of thisliberation, there's often relief
(28:13):
that people feel when they cutties or when they have some
lesser amount of contact withfamily members that are being
hurtful to them.
So absolutely, there is healingreally that can come from this.
And I think, as you're saying,you know we want to be thinking
(28:34):
about how can we accept both ourdecision and the reality of the
dysfunction in the family thatled us to have to make the
decision.
Because that's where we're ableto move beyond the second
guessing and the self-doubtabout it, because we are
(28:55):
grounded in this reality ofknowing that there are certain
problems in our family andknowing from our life experience
that it's unlikely to change,and from there we're able to, I
think, grieve what has happenedin the family and also so that's
(29:17):
sort of grieving the realityagain of what is, and also being
able to grieve what you didn'tget the family that you never
had, the love that you didn'tget from your family the
acceptance.
So there's often this, I don'tknow, I kind of just call it the
dream of you know, wishing foryour family to be different, or
(29:39):
it could be something veryspecific, wishing they were
going to be like that sitcomfamily on TV or your best
friend's family.
You know, we again, we get somuch messaging about what a
loving, supportive family issupposed to look like and what
they are supposed to do, and sowhen you don't have that,
there's a loss of somethingthat's sort of intangible
(29:59):
because you didn't have it.
So you're kind of like, well,how do you grieve something that
you don't have?
But I think, if we canacknowledge that that's a loss,
because it's something that weall want to have and it's
something that, when it doesn'texist, leaves a real hole for
you, there's something that'smissing.
That kind of carries with youjust this sense of not having
(30:23):
missing something that you weresupposed to have.
April Snow (30:27):
It's so true.
It's difficult to grieve anexperience you never actually
lived, but you've only seen fromthe outside.
So it sounds like the path toacceptance, though, is through
grief.
Work is honoring those losses.
Dr. Sharon Martin (30:42):
Yeah, I think that's a big part of it.
And, like I was saying, I think, just being really cognizant of
what is happening in the family, because that allows us to make
peace with our decision,because we understand why we had
to make it Right.
Right, if we aren't realisticabout what's happening, then we
(31:06):
stay in the wishful thinkingstage of things.
We're thinking, oh, maybe it'llget better, maybe something
will change.
This year Christmas will bedifferent or Mother's Day will
be different.
And as long as we are stuck inthat place, we're never going to
move forward.
We're going to just continueagain and again putting up with
(31:27):
mistreatment, making excuses forit, coming up with some other
way of trying to resolve theproblems ourselves.
And if we're honest withourselves, we can say here's how
long this has been going on,here's the various things that
I've tried over the years,here's been the impact of it on
me, here's been the impact onother people and so forth.
(31:51):
And if we look at it almost inthis factual way, we can say,
okay, this doesn't make sensefor me to continue to suffer.
You know, given the informationthat I have, I don't have any
indication here that things aregoing to change, any indication
(32:11):
here that things are going tochange Right, right, right.
I mean, if you did get some,some information that something
had changed again, somethingconcrete here.
You know, and I'm talking aboutsomething like, let's just say,
if part of the familydysfunction was your mother's
alcoholism and you hear that momhas gone to rehab and she's got
six months clean and sober,that would be a factual piece of
information that says, ok, well, maybe something might be
(32:31):
changed here, right, right.
But again, short of thatinformation, you know your
cousin just saying, oh, your momseems great.
That's not enough information,right, to say, ok, something has
really changed here, somethinghas really changed here.
So I'm talking about somethingreally very specific that we can
go on, because otherwise we'rejust living in a fantasy land of
(32:52):
wishing things are going to bedifferent and that,
unfortunately, is just a setupfor more pain and suffering for
us.
Again, I think this path toacceptance and healing really
has to include accepting of howbad things are and again, that's
not an easy thing to do, I mean, even though I think most
(33:14):
people who are listening to thisare obviously not in complete
denial or they wouldn't even belistening to this conversation
right.
But again, it's just.
It's very common and it's veryunderstandable that you can want
to stay, have a certain amountof denial, because again, it's
very painful to acknowledge justhow problematic your family has
(33:35):
been and how hurtful they havebeen.
April Snow (33:38):
Yeah, it's true it's a hard reality to look at and
face, but such a necessary partof the process.
It's not just accepting thisdecision, it's accepting the
reality of your family and justsaying this is how my family
operates and if it's notchanging, I need to make a
different choice for myself tosurvive have a chance, yeah, and
(33:59):
so when you're second guessing,looking at what's in front of
you, that's what helps me.
Actually I'm like, wait, this isstill happening.
This is still happening.
The past is still the past.
I feel justified in my decisionand, yeah, we really need to
sit with it.
And yeah, the denial helps youget through for a while, but at
some point it stops working,because then you just keep
getting hurt.
Dr. Sharon Martin (34:20):
Well, yeah, and I mean, if we use the
analogy of substance use oraddiction, I mean, it's that
same kind of thing, right, thedenial does help minimize the
pain while you're in thatsituation, but if anything is
going to change, we have tobreak through the denial, right
we have to say this is what'sreally happening, so it is a key
(34:41):
piece of it.
Yeah, so important.
April Snow (34:44):
Well, sharon, as we start to wrap up, I wonder if
there's a final message youcould share with the HSPs who
are listening, who are on thatspectrum of estrangement that
you talked about.
Dr. Sharon Martin (34:53):
Yeah.
April Snow (34:54):
What message could you leave them with?
Dr. Sharon Martin (34:56):
Well, first of all, I really want to
reiterate that this is not yourfault.
It's very easy to get into aplace of self-blame and feeling
guilty and feeling inadequate orthat you're doing something
(35:17):
wrong.
The shame all of that.
Again, because we can feelthings so deeply.
We're very susceptible to thepressure, either from society at
large or very specific peoplein our lives, and just internal
as well, that we will take thaton and internalize it, and so
try to remind yourself that itis okay, it's actually very
healthy and necessary to putyour needs first and to take
(35:40):
care of yourself.
I probably say this every timeI talk about anything I feel
like, but self-compassion isjust so important, it's so
necessary for us to get throughchallenging situations in our
lives.
So to acknowledge that this ispainful, this is a struggle, it
(36:01):
is a difficult situation, andthen to try to give yourself
some kindness, some love, somesupport, is really super
important.
I think also trying to getsupport from the outside is
really important as well, and Isay this knowing that it's
really hard.
(36:21):
As an introvert myself, it'snot easy to ask for support and,
again, on a topic that is verymisunderstood and sometimes
demonized, it's extra difficultto reach out for support.
And I will also say I meananother unfortunate challenge is
there's not as much support outthere as there needs to be for
(36:42):
adult children who are in thissituation.
It's not an uncommon situation,but you wouldn't know that if
you went looking specificallyfor support groups or sometimes
even for therapists whospecialize in this.
So, again, it's challenging andI know there's some roadblocks
there.
But whether that's professionalsupport or informal support,
(37:03):
just friends, we definitely knowthat any kind of challenging
life situation, it's helpful toget support.
It helps lighten our loademotionally when we have other
people there for us.
So try to do that, even ifthat's just baby steps, of
trying to build some connectionsin person, online, with the
therapist or somebody else aswell.
(37:25):
And then my last thing that Iwill say is just again one more
reiterating that, despite whatanybody else says, cutting ties,
no contact, low contact,whatever form that takes for you
, can absolutely be a healthydecision for you.
I say that as a therapist whosees this every day, that I have
(37:46):
so many clients who tell me I'mso glad I did this, it was so
difficult, but my only regret isthat I didn't do it sooner.
Honestly, I hear a lot andagain, there's not a lot of
research yet, but there is somethat also indicates that this
can be a healthy decision foryou.
So, as we're doing it, we'rereally working against a lot of
(38:10):
those social structures that aretelling us otherwise.
But, just like any otherdysfunctional relationship, it's
really hard to heal when you'restill in the dysfunctional or
abusive relationship.
So stepping aside, steppingback from it whether that's
temporary or whether that'spermanent really can give us the
(38:30):
space, the time, the energythat we need to do some of the
emotional healing.
And then again you canreevaluate whether you want to
have any contact with thisperson in the future or not.
That will be up to you, but Ithink you're probably better
equipped to make that decisiononce you have been able to do
some of the healing work.
April Snow (38:50):
That will benefit you, that's so true.
Right, get yourself out of thetornado so you can get some
perspective right, and then youcan decide from there.
And just like any boundary,it's flexible, you get to change
your mind.
But just being able to carveout some of that compassion for
yourself is so critical, andjust figuring out what you need
to do next.
Dr. Sharon Martin (39:10):
Yeah.
April Snow (39:11):
Thank you so much, sharon.
It's so true that there is adeficit of resources in this
area, so I was especiallyexcited to see your new book
come out, cutting ties with yourparents.
I'll share that in the shownotes for folks, plus your other
books on boundaries andperfectionism, your website,
your social media, just so folkscan dive in and start to
reflect and lean into some ofthese resources.
Thank you so much.
Great Thank you.
(39:32):
Thanks so much for joining meand Sharon for today's
conversation.
What I hope you're taking awayis that sometimes cutting ties
with a parent or family memberis necessary for your own
survival and that healing thegrief, anger and shame for
(39:54):
making such a difficult andnecessary decision is possible.
If you are considering a nocontact boundary with someone
that you're close to or you needsupport and healing from
estrangement, pick up Sharon'sbook cutting ties with Parents
at the link in the show notes orwherever you find your books.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
(40:15):
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSP resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
Strengths on Instagram, tiktokand YouTube, Check out the show
notes or sensitivestoriescom forall the resources from today's
(40:37):
episode.
Thanks for listening.
recognizing that you are doing something
that the rest of society istelling you is wrong.
So of course that socialpressure is going to add to the
second thoughts and theambivalence and the feeling like
I'm doing something wrong,those feelings of guilt all
super common.
It's a normal thing to feelthat way and it's not indicative
(00:22):
of it being the wrong choicefor you.
April Snow (00:33):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
(00:55):
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk with DrSharon Martin about when it's
necessary to make the difficultdecision to go low or no contact
with a parent or close familymember, how to navigate the
aftermath of this decision andwhat the healing process looks
like.
Sharon is a licensed clinicalsocial worker, psychotherapist
(01:16):
and author, specializing inhelping adult children recover
from difficult childhoods.
She identifies as a highlysensitive person and a
recovering perfectionist.
Sharon is the author of fourbooks the CBT Workbook for
Perfectionism, the BetterBoundaries Workbook, the Better
Boundaries Guided Journal andher latest Cutting Ties with
your Parents.
(01:36):
For more HSP resources and tosee behind the scenes video from
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
(01:59):
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in.
Welcome back, sharon.
(02:28):
Some listeners might rememberyou from episode 17.
We dove into the topic ofboundaries and we're now talking
about something adjacent tothat, about your new book
Cutting Ties with Parents,something that's personally
relatable to me, so I'm excitedto dive into this with you.
I did want to start off bydebunking a myth.
We often hear that peopleassume this is a decision taken
lightly, it's not thoughtthrough.
(02:49):
Could you share why most peoplecome to this decision that they
need to cut ties with a parentor even a close family member?
Dr. Sharon Martin (02:57):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
I am really excited to talkabout this topic and I think
this is a really good andimportant place for us to begin,
because there is a lot ofmisinformation that gets put out
into the world and I think,again, we see a lot of this on
social media, as we do on othertopics as well.
(03:18):
You know that there tends to bethis narrative that adult
children who cut ties with theirparents are doing something
that is selfish, it's mean, it'sa rash decision that they
haven't thought through, thatthey don't really have valid
reasons for it and that theyshould really just sort of get
(03:39):
with the program, be a part ofthe family.
And again, I think there's partof this narrative is this is
how everybody has done it in thepast is you just deal with the
family, no matter howdysfunctional it is, just show
up, care for your elderlyparents, if that's the situation
you're in, or put up with thefamily member that abused you as
(04:00):
a child.
And it really is this again,sort of this dysfunctional
narrative of just deal with itbecause they're your family.
And I'll tell you, I you know,as in writing this book, I did a
lot of research.
So I read all of the academicresearch that has been done
about why adult children cutties with their parents and I've
(04:20):
also been a therapist who hasworked with many, many adult
children who have been in thissituation over the years and the
answers are actuallysurprisingly consistent that
adult children almost always saythat they cut ties with their
parents or family because theyhave been abused, mistreated,
(04:42):
betrayed, not respected,rejected, not accepted for who
they are some variation on thatand so they feel like they have
been mistreated by theirfamilies, and this is typically
a pattern that began inchildhood, that their family did
not treat them well growing up,and has continued into
(05:04):
adulthood.
So they are now grown adults inrelationship with their parents
or other family members andthey continue to be disrespected
and criticized and put down andget emotionally abused,
sometimes physically abused,right, so it's not a healthy
relationship for them.
There are, of course, someother reasons.
(05:24):
I would say again, this ismostly what we're talking about
here is abusive or what we oftennowadays sort of call toxic
relationships, but certainlythere are situations where there
is an adult child who has amajor mental health problem or a
substance problem.
That can lead to thedeterioration of the
relationship and then cuttingoff contact with their families.
(05:48):
And there are also situationsthat I think we hear more about
now today of just differingvalues between adult children
and their family of origin,which, again, I think if we
really got into that, we wouldsee that there's an overlap
there between the differingvalues and the feeling
mistreated.
It's not simply that wedisagree, it's the way that that
(06:10):
plays out in the relationship.
So that's really what adultchildren are saying is this is
years in the making.
For me, this has been a longtime coming.
I have thought about this, Ihave tried various amounts of
contact, I have tried differentways of expressing my grievances
, of asking for things to change, and it hasn't changed.
(06:32):
And again, so not something thatis just a one-off that we're
talking about for the most part.
I think sometimes it feels likethat to the rest of the family
which, again, if we really gotinto it, we would start to see
that there's a communicationbreakdown such that the adult
child has been trying to saythere's a problem and people
(06:53):
have not been listening, theyhave not wanted to hear it, they
have minimized it, they havenot wanted to deal with it,
which, again, is very much ahallmark of a lot of
dysfunctional families is wejust don't deal with problems.
We scapegoat somebody, we shovethe problem under the rug and
try to pretend like everything'sfine here.
April Snow (07:12):
Exactly, this problem didn't just begin.
This is a years long problemwhere the child often has tried
multiple times to be heard, tobe seen, to shift the pattern of
what's happening in the family,and it's often not just
happening with the parents, it'shappening with the grandparents
, but the rest of the family aswell.
And yeah, we've been told to,like you said, get with the
(07:33):
program right, just follow theline, do what you're told, look
the other way and you get to apoint where there's a limit.
You can only take so much.
And it starts to then impactyour own mental health, your own
sanity, your own physicalhealth even, and you have to
maybe think okay, I need tochange something.
Dr. Sharon Martin (07:49):
Yes, and it often starts interfering with
other relationships that theadult child has with their
partner or with their ownchildren.
I often see things reach abreaking point sometimes when
somebody has their own childrenand they say I don't want to
repeat this pattern, I don'twant my parents to do to my
children what they did to me.
Or again, I see that there areproblems here and I want to
(08:13):
protect my kids from them aswell.
April Snow (08:15):
Absolutely, you want to break that cycle, and the
only way to do that is to makethe hard decision and
potentially become the scapegoator the problem person in the
family.
Yes, the black sheep, the blacksheep.
Dr. Sharon Martin (08:26):
Thank you.
April Snow (08:27):
Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Sharon Martin (08:28):
I know we have scapegoats and black sheep.
What's up with that?
Yeah, and one of the thingsthat I always say to my clients
because a lot of them are thescapegoat or the black sheep of
the family is often the personwho's in that role, the one who
has been cast out and reallyvilified, is often the
(08:48):
healthiest person emotionally inthat family because they are
the one who is calling out theproblems that nobody else wants
to acknowledge, which againmeans you can't be a part of the
family group in the same waybecause you're over here saying,
hey, something's got to change.
This is not healthy, this isabusive, we've got issues here,
(09:09):
but of course that is a healthything to do.
Right, this is how we getourselves mentally healthy.
This is how we getrelationships healthier.
As we acknowledge problems, wefigure out how to solve them if
possible, and then things canchange.
But if we don't, then we justright.
That's the being stuck in thecycle.
It just goes on and on and onthat nobody's doing anything
(09:31):
about it.
April Snow (09:32):
Exactly, and to maintain your own health you do
have to break that cycle andthen risk disrupting the family.
Does that mean that you're thenlosing your other family
members?
This is something I'm alwaystrying to figure out.
Do you have to then cut tieswith other folks who maybe don't
understand your decision, oryou're then risking being in
contact with a family member youdon't want to be with, so then
(09:52):
you're kind of opting out of thefamily system altogether.
Dr. Sharon Martin (09:56):
Well, it's complicated and it's not the
same for everybody, but, to behonest, I think people need to
understand that that is apossibility, not necessarily
because you have decided.
If I cut ties with my parents,I also have to cut ties with my
grandparents or my siblings.
But sometimes they cut tieswith you because, again, when
(10:18):
you're the one who isessentially disrupting the
family system, you arechallenging the hierarchy in the
family and the power dynamics.
That means that oftentimes theperson who has the most power so
we'll just call this theabusive person in the family for
our purposes right now, right,they feel challenged because you
(10:40):
are again, you're calling itout and you're sort of setting
that ultimate boundary of sayingI'm not putting up with this,
I'm going to opt out of this,I'm going to distance myself or
have no contact with you.
They will then try to get therest of the family members on
their side and again scapegoatyou and say you're the problem,
and this is what we will see assort of the smear campaign.
(11:03):
Oftentimes people will talkabout this where there's gossip,
there's rumors, they're badmouthing you, they're really
just making up often a lot ofjust unbelievable stuff about
you.
Well, I shouldn't say it'sunbelievable because some people
do believe it and that's whyit's so hurtful and dangerous,
but I mean it's unbelievable inthe sense that it's completely
unfounded things.
It's unbelievable in the sensethat it's completely unfounded
(11:25):
things but for the very specificpurposes of damaging you and
your reputation and trying toget the rest of the family to
again cut ties with you, and Iwould say that really is is an
effort to punish you forstanding up to them, because
that feels like that's, you know, again going against everything
about the way this familysystem is trying to operate.
(11:47):
So anyway, with that being said, I would say it also depends on
the strength and the type ofrelationship that you had with
other family members prior tocutting ties.
It's not impossible to maintainrelationships with some family
members.
Sometimes you can do thatseparately.
(12:07):
You know so.
For example, if it was theholidays and you opted out of
the main family, get together.
Maybe it's possible for you todo something a different time
with your sister.
Or if it's a family wedding andyou've decided that you're not
going to go to that again, maybethere's a way for you to
(12:31):
celebrate that couple apart fromthe main family gatherings and
celebrations.
So sometimes we can do that.
You know, I would encouragepeople, if that's important to
them, to try to figure out waysto maintain those relationships.
But of course I think it'simportant that we're realistic
and understanding that sometimes, because the way family
relationships are interconnected, that we do lose connections
with other people as well.
April Snow (12:52):
Absolutely, and, as you said, sometimes it's not our
choice.
Other people are going tobuckle down and want to preserve
that family system.
Yeah, so you have to have folkswho are willing to step outside
of it.
You mentioned the phrase nocontact.
What's the difference betweenno contact and low contact?
Dr. Sharon Martin (13:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, no contact, I would say,is pretty much what it sounds
like, where you have said, right, there's nothing, we are not
going to see each other inperson, we're not going to have
any form of communication orinteraction.
This is usually, you know, themost extreme.
So it might include blockingphone numbers, blocking people
(13:27):
on social media, social mediaand again, sometimes it is so
that you're not having contactwith that person directly, but
also you don't want to begetting any information about
them that's coming in, because,again, it can be very upsetting
and very hurtful to be seeingwhat they are doing or what they
are saying online or in otherforums.
(13:50):
And then low contact issomething in between of fully
engaged in the relationship andhaving no contact.
And really probably the mostaccurate way for us to think
about family estrangement is ona spectrum that it is very
common, I would say the mostcommon scenario really is that
people have varying amounts ofcontact with their family over
(14:15):
time.
That ebbs and flows, so we havea little contact, we have more
contact, something happens andthen we pull back and there's
less, or there might be a yearor two even of no contact, and
then something changes and youdecide I'm going to give it
another try, or it's grandma'sfuneral and I really want to go,
and so then I, you know, havesome contact.
(14:37):
So the idea of completely nocontact is certainly an option
and it works and it holds forsome people I would say, forever
.
But I would say the far morecommon is really that there's
this shifting of you know, someflexibility in that, but again
with the specific intention thatyou are going to be mindful
(15:00):
about how much contact you haveand you're constantly evaluating
is this working for me, havingthis much contact?
You know, has something changedand it makes sense for me to
have more contact.
Is this working out or is itnot, and do I need to pull back?
So yeah, so it really oftenchanges for people and I think
(15:21):
sometimes that's just helpful toknow that that's really common.
So if you set out thinking, okay, I'm cutting ties, I'm not
going to have contact with thisperson or people, and then you
end up having some contact,that's not a failure on your
part, right?
That doesn't happen.
The end goal is not necessarilyI should be having no contact
(15:41):
with somebody who has beenhurtful for me.
It is figuring out what makessense for you, how much capacity
do you have for being in thisrelationship at this moment?
And again, that changes forpeople.
I just call it like youremotional bandwidth, like, do
you have the ability, do youhave the coping skills, do you
(16:02):
have the support system?
What else is going on in yourlife?
And again, if you're thinkingabout a specific event, you
might say, okay, well, thisholiday season I really don't
have the bandwidth.
There's a lot of other thingsgoing on in my life, in the
world.
I just can't do it.
April Snow (16:19):
That might not be the case a year or two years
from now, and so if thingschange again, either with you or
with the family, you knowthings can change with the
relationship and the amount ofcontact as well you know, things
can change with therelationship and the amount of
contact as well, and it'shelpful to know there's
flexibility and you get todecide to lean in or pull away,
depending on what's going on,and you may want to break that
(16:42):
no contact.
So you get to attend a funeral,a wedding, or you may not.
And I love that flexibility ofhow am I doing in the moment,
what capacity emotionalbandwidth do I have, and I can
decide there.
How am I doing in the moment,what capacity, emotional
bandwidth do I have, and I candecide there.
Let's say you're starting tosecond guess your decision.
What does that mean when that'shappening?
Dr. Sharon Martin (16:58):
Okay.
Well, again, I would say it'sreally common, completely normal
, to be ambivalent about it, andit definitely doesn't mean that
you're making the wrongdecision or that you're doing
something wrong.
I really think about theambivalence as a function of
there's a lot at stake, andanytime you're making a big
(17:21):
decision where there's a lot atstake, it's normal to have
doubts.
You're going to second guessyourself.
I mean, even just think aboutif you were going to make a
complete career change or moveacross the country.
It would be completely normalto have second thoughts, even
like people getting married.
It's very common to have coldfeet.
Right Doesn't mean it's thewrong thing to do.
(17:44):
And then the other thing hereis that you're doing something
that is really going against thegrain.
There's a lot of socialpressure, as we mentioned
earlier, to stay engaged withthe family system and so
recognizing again that you aredoing something that the rest of
society is telling you is wrong.
(18:05):
So of course, that socialpressure is going to add to the
second thoughts and theambivalence and the feeling like
I'm doing something wrong, I'mdoing something bad, those
feelings of guilt all supercommon.
So, again, I think it's helpfulto frame that as just it's a
normal thing to feel that wayand it's not indicative of it
(18:26):
being the wrong choice for you.
Certainly, it's helpful tounderstand why you're making the
choice, and I think talkingabout that with a safe person or
writing it down can be reallyhelpful in getting the clarity
that you need, because, again,the ambivalence may linger there
(18:49):
, but it's still good for you tosay, okay, I know why I've
gotten to this point, I know whyI'm making this decision.
So when somebody says to youyou know what's wrong with you,
why are you doing that?
They question your decision,they put the guilt trip on you.
You don't necessarily need toexplain it to them or justify it
to them, but you want to knowinside yourself that I've
(19:13):
thought this through, I've giventhis a lot of thought, I've
reflected on it, I've talked itover with my dear friend or my
therapist or my coach or aspiritual advisor whoever that
might be for you and I know thatI have exhausted all reasonable
options here.
I've given it my best shot andthat doesn't mean that I need to
(19:36):
keep giving it my best shot forthe rest of my life.
Right, it is okay to say thisis not working for me and that's
a reasonable conclusion to cometo.
And again, I think if we framethis as this is something that I
am doing for my own well-beingand I deserve to be happy and
healthy and to be free ofrelationships that are toxic and
(20:00):
hurtful and harmful to me, youknow, then we can start to give
ourselves the permission thatwill help lessen the ambivalence
.
But again, I would say, don'tbe concerned if that ambivalence
and those second guessescontinue for quite a long time.
It's really such a painfuldecision, such a painful
(20:20):
situation to have been in anddifficult.
But everything that led up toit has been really painful and
difficult.
And that's again years andyears worth of challenges and
people putting you down oftenand second-guessing you.
(20:41):
That for a lot of folks who arein this situation, they have
also really been essentiallytrained from a very young age
not to trust their own feelings,not to trust their instincts,
not to feel like their needs arevalid or important.
So again, we're working againsta lot of the things that we
(21:01):
learned about ourselves and sothat can be a pretty lengthy
process of undoing some of thatand it can come but recognize
that if you're just fresh atthis of you know, thinking about
how much contact you want tohave or considering pulling back
.
You know that there are anumber of things that are
working against you in terms ofjust feeling super confident
(21:22):
about it.
April Snow (21:23):
Right right, it's helpful to know that that doubt
is natural.
It makes sense, given just thegravity of the decision.
And I appreciate you saying theother piece, which is you're
going up against a lot ofmessaging and years of
conditioning that you don't talkabout it, you don't disrupt the
system, you just kind of get inline your needs, don't get to
(21:44):
take up space at the forefront.
So just know there's a lot ofunlearning to do and that takes
time, makes sense.
Dr. Sharon Martin (21:50):
Yeah absolutely.
April Snow (21:51):
You mentioned that you don't have to explain
yourself to other people, butwhat about those family members
or those people who really leaninto the guilt to make amends
Like, oh, that's your mother,you're going to regret it later.
You know they're doing the bestthey can.
How do we navigate thoseconversations?
Dr. Sharon Martin (22:09):
Well, I think , as you're getting at here is
there are some people who arejust going to keep at it.
The way that you're approachingit is hurtful.
(22:34):
You know something along thoselines, and so that there is a
very clear message of sayingthis is a decision that I have
made.
And again, this is wheresometimes, even if you feel some
doubt, still you want toproject out that you have more
confidence in it and say this isa decision that I've made for
myself.
You know, I appreciate yourconcern, but I really don't want
to talk about it with you.
Or I'll let you know if I wantyour input or your advice, but
(22:56):
right now I've got it covered.
Or you can play around with thephrases and when doing this, it
can be really helpful to writedown some sample scripts for
yourself so that it feels likeit's authentic, a way that you
would say it to somebody and orpractice it with somebody that
you feel safe doing that, sothat when those inevitable
(23:20):
conversations and comments comeup because it is for most people
it's fairly predictable If Iask them who is going to
challenge you, who's going topush your boundaries on this,
who's going to put the guilttrip on you.
They know who it's going to bemost likely, and so be prepared
for it.
I think that's your bestdefense here is have a plan,
(23:40):
know what you're going to say.
You can say it in a direct andclear way, but also with
kindness.
It doesn't need to be harsh ormean.
And again, I think when we haveplanned it out and we feel
prepared, we're much more likelyto say it in a nice way than it
to just be that reflexive inthe moment.
You know, I can't believeyou're saying this to me again
(24:03):
for the 20th time here.
I am asking you to please leaveme to figure this out for
myself.
So certainly there, I thinkthere's a group of people that
we need to have that real clear,firm boundary with and just
basically be saying you knowthis is off limits, right?
The gray area, of course, ismuch harder to figure out, which
(24:23):
is are there some people inyour life that it does make
sense to explain a little bitmore about the situation?
And I say this because I thinkthere are often some people who
truly are well-meaning and theyhave families that are
functional and they truly cannotunderstand that families could
(24:49):
treat people the way your familyhas treated you, and so it's
like they just you know you'rekind of speaking a different
language to them almost, and sofor these folks, sometimes
sharing a little bit more aboutwhat your experiences have been
can help them to understand andthen they can be more
(25:10):
compassionate towards you.
But again, it's a veryvulnerable thing to do because
certainly any time that we aretalking about painful
experiences, abuse that we haveexperienced, there is a chance
that people will not understandthat they would minimize that or
even potentially use it againstyou.
So we want to weigh thatdecision carefully.
(25:32):
The upside, of course, is thatit can also bring a lot of
closeness to a relationship.
When we share somethingvulnerable about ourselves,
right, and then often the otherperson will reciprocate and
share something more vulnerableabout them, and then, right, we
develop this emotionalconnection.
That can be quite powerful.
But I hope that people don'tend up in a situation where they
(25:54):
are really just feeling likeI'm needing to justify my
reasons, because that's not whatwe're talking about here.
We're really talking about ifit's a situation where we can
genuinely be building closenessand connection in a trusting way
, rather than I'm giving you thelist of all the things that my
parents did to me and you'reover there saying it doesn't
(26:16):
sound like that was that badright.
If you start getting that vibefrom somebody, I would
definitely say pull back.
This relationship isn't in aplace where this is going to be
helpful for you.
April Snow (26:29):
Yeah, it's true that some people are going to
approach with curiosity, wantingto understand.
But we may have that reactionthat, oh, everyone is trying to
push my boundaries here.
But that's not true.
Some people might just want tobe getting to know you
understanding, because they didhave a different experience.
But, yeah, look out for thosemarkers of safety.
Are they curious or are theyquestioning or minimizing?
(26:52):
That's a good way to check inand see is this somebody I want
to share with, Because this is avery vulnerable part of your
life?
Dr. Sharon Martin (26:59):
Yeah, I like that way of phrasing it.
Are they curious?
And then you're constantlyevaluating their response.
Right Again, share somethingsmaller and see how they respond
and then, if it goes well, youcan share more, that's true,
just slowly open up differentlevels.
April Snow (27:17):
Yeah, yeah, right.
Dr. Sharon Martin (27:18):
Exactly.
We don't want to just startwith everything all at once if
we're not sure about how thisperson is going to react and if
they're going to be able to besupportive Absolutely.
April Snow (27:29):
So we've talked about the hardships of making
this decision, of communicatingit to others.
Is there a point that we get tofeel acceptance, we get to feel
some peace with it?
What does that look like?
Dr. Sharon Martin (27:51):
transition because, you're right, we have
talked so much about howchallenging it is and how
painful it all can be, butobviously, once we start to
truly accept the reality of ourfamily situation, it then allows
us to move forward or have somefreedom from the situation.
Right, there's sort of thisliberation, there's often relief
(28:13):
that people feel when they cutties or when they have some
lesser amount of contact withfamily members that are being
hurtful to them.
So absolutely, there is healingreally that can come from this.
And I think, as you're saying,you know we want to be thinking
(28:34):
about how can we accept both ourdecision and the reality of the
dysfunction in the family thatled us to have to make the
decision.
Because that's where we're ableto move beyond the second
guessing and the self-doubtabout it, because we are
(28:55):
grounded in this reality ofknowing that there are certain
problems in our family andknowing from our life experience
that it's unlikely to change,and from there we're able to, I
think, grieve what has happenedin the family and also so that's
(29:17):
sort of grieving the realityagain of what is, and also being
able to grieve what you didn'tget the family that you never
had, the love that you didn'tget from your family the
acceptance.
So there's often this, I don'tknow, I kind of just call it the
dream of you know, wishing foryour family to be different, or
(29:39):
it could be something veryspecific, wishing they were
going to be like that sitcomfamily on TV or your best
friend's family.
You know, we again, we get somuch messaging about what a
loving, supportive family issupposed to look like and what
they are supposed to do, and sowhen you don't have that,
there's a loss of somethingthat's sort of intangible
(29:59):
because you didn't have it.
So you're kind of like, well,how do you grieve something that
you don't have?
But I think, if we canacknowledge that that's a loss,
because it's something that weall want to have and it's
something that, when it doesn'texist, leaves a real hole for
you, there's something that'smissing.
That kind of carries with youjust this sense of not having
(30:23):
missing something that you weresupposed to have.
April Snow (30:27):
It's so true.
It's difficult to grieve anexperience you never actually
lived, but you've only seen fromthe outside.
So it sounds like the path toacceptance, though, is through
grief.
Work is honoring those losses.
Dr. Sharon Martin (30:42):
Yeah, I think that's a big part of it.
And, like I was saying, I think, just being really cognizant of
what is happening in the family, because that allows us to make
peace with our decision,because we understand why we had
to make it Right.
Right, if we aren't realisticabout what's happening, then we
(31:06):
stay in the wishful thinkingstage of things.
We're thinking, oh, maybe it'llget better, maybe something
will change.
This year Christmas will bedifferent or Mother's Day will
be different.
And as long as we are stuck inthat place, we're never going to
move forward.
We're going to just continueagain and again putting up with
(31:27):
mistreatment, making excuses forit, coming up with some other
way of trying to resolve theproblems ourselves.
And if we're honest withourselves, we can say here's how
long this has been going on,here's the various things that
I've tried over the years,here's been the impact of it on
me, here's been the impact onother people and so forth.
(31:51):
And if we look at it almost inthis factual way, we can say,
okay, this doesn't make sensefor me to continue to suffer.
You know, given the informationthat I have, I don't have any
indication here that things aregoing to change, any indication
(32:11):
here that things are going tochange Right, right, right.
I mean, if you did get some,some information that something
had changed again, somethingconcrete here.
You know, and I'm talking aboutsomething like, let's just say,
if part of the familydysfunction was your mother's
alcoholism and you hear that momhas gone to rehab and she's got
six months clean and sober,that would be a factual piece of
information that says, ok, well, maybe something might be
(32:31):
changed here, right, right.
But again, short of thatinformation, you know your
cousin just saying, oh, your momseems great.
That's not enough information,right, to say, ok, something has
really changed here, somethinghas really changed here.
So I'm talking about somethingreally very specific that we can
go on, because otherwise we'rejust living in a fantasy land of
(32:52):
wishing things are going to bedifferent and that,
unfortunately, is just a setupfor more pain and suffering for
us.
Again, I think this path toacceptance and healing really
has to include accepting of howbad things are and again, that's
not an easy thing to do, I mean, even though I think most
(33:14):
people who are listening to thisare obviously not in complete
denial or they wouldn't even belistening to this conversation
right.
But again, it's just.
It's very common and it's veryunderstandable that you can want
to stay, have a certain amountof denial, because again, it's
very painful to acknowledge justhow problematic your family has
(33:35):
been and how hurtful they havebeen.
April Snow (33:38):
Yeah, it's true it's a hard reality to look at and
face, but such a necessary partof the process.
It's not just accepting thisdecision, it's accepting the
reality of your family and justsaying this is how my family
operates and if it's notchanging, I need to make a
different choice for myself tosurvive have a chance, yeah, and
(33:59):
so when you're second guessing,looking at what's in front of
you, that's what helps me.
Actually I'm like, wait, this isstill happening.
This is still happening.
The past is still the past.
I feel justified in my decisionand, yeah, we really need to
sit with it.
And yeah, the denial helps youget through for a while, but at
some point it stops working,because then you just keep
getting hurt.
Dr. Sharon Martin (34:20):
Well, yeah, and I mean, if we use the
analogy of substance use oraddiction, I mean, it's that
same kind of thing, right, thedenial does help minimize the
pain while you're in thatsituation, but if anything is
going to change, we have tobreak through the denial, right
we have to say this is what'sreally happening, so it is a key
(34:41):
piece of it.
Yeah, so important.
April Snow (34:44):
Well, sharon, as we start to wrap up, I wonder if
there's a final message youcould share with the HSPs who
are listening, who are on thatspectrum of estrangement that
you talked about.
Dr. Sharon Martin (34:53):
Yeah.
April Snow (34:54):
What message could you leave them with?
Dr. Sharon Martin (34:56):
Well, first of all, I really want to
reiterate that this is not yourfault.
It's very easy to get into aplace of self-blame and feeling
guilty and feeling inadequate orthat you're doing something
(35:17):
wrong.
The shame all of that.
Again, because we can feelthings so deeply.
We're very susceptible to thepressure, either from society at
large or very specific peoplein our lives, and just internal
as well, that we will take thaton and internalize it, and so
try to remind yourself that itis okay, it's actually very
healthy and necessary to putyour needs first and to take
(35:40):
care of yourself.
I probably say this every timeI talk about anything I feel
like, but self-compassion isjust so important, it's so
necessary for us to get throughchallenging situations in our
lives.
So to acknowledge that this ispainful, this is a struggle, it
(36:01):
is a difficult situation, andthen to try to give yourself
some kindness, some love, somesupport, is really super
important.
I think also trying to getsupport from the outside is
really important as well, and Isay this knowing that it's
really hard.
(36:21):
As an introvert myself, it'snot easy to ask for support and,
again, on a topic that is verymisunderstood and sometimes
demonized, it's extra difficultto reach out for support.
And I will also say I meananother unfortunate challenge is
there's not as much support outthere as there needs to be for
(36:42):
adult children who are in thissituation.
It's not an uncommon situation,but you wouldn't know that if
you went looking specificallyfor support groups or sometimes
even for therapists whospecialize in this.
So, again, it's challenging andI know there's some roadblocks
there.
But whether that's professionalsupport or informal support,
(37:03):
just friends, we definitely knowthat any kind of challenging
life situation, it's helpful toget support.
It helps lighten our loademotionally when we have other
people there for us.
So try to do that, even ifthat's just baby steps, of
trying to build some connectionsin person, online, with the
therapist or somebody else aswell.
(37:25):
And then my last thing that Iwill say is just again one more
reiterating that, despite whatanybody else says, cutting ties,
no contact, low contact,whatever form that takes for you
, can absolutely be a healthydecision for you.
I say that as a therapist whosees this every day, that I have
(37:46):
so many clients who tell me I'mso glad I did this, it was so
difficult, but my only regret isthat I didn't do it sooner.
Honestly, I hear a lot andagain, there's not a lot of
research yet, but there is somethat also indicates that this
can be a healthy decision foryou.
So, as we're doing it, we'rereally working against a lot of
(38:10):
those social structures that aretelling us otherwise.
But, just like any otherdysfunctional relationship, it's
really hard to heal when you'restill in the dysfunctional or
abusive relationship.
So stepping aside, steppingback from it whether that's
temporary or whether that'spermanent really can give us the
(38:30):
space, the time, the energythat we need to do some of the
emotional healing.
And then again you canreevaluate whether you want to
have any contact with thisperson in the future or not.
That will be up to you, but Ithink you're probably better
equipped to make that decisiononce you have been able to do
some of the healing work.
April Snow (38:50):
That will benefit you, that's so true.
Right, get yourself out of thetornado so you can get some
perspective right, and then youcan decide from there.
And just like any boundary,it's flexible, you get to change
your mind.
But just being able to carveout some of that compassion for
yourself is so critical, andjust figuring out what you need
to do next.
Dr. Sharon Martin (39:10):
Yeah.
April Snow (39:11):
Thank you so much, sharon.
It's so true that there is adeficit of resources in this
area, so I was especiallyexcited to see your new book
come out, cutting ties with yourparents.
I'll share that in the shownotes for folks, plus your other
books on boundaries andperfectionism, your website,
your social media, just so folkscan dive in and start to
reflect and lean into some ofthese resources.
Thank you so much.
Great Thank you.
(39:32):
Thanks so much for joining meand Sharon for today's
conversation.
What I hope you're taking awayis that sometimes cutting ties
with a parent or family memberis necessary for your own
survival and that healing thegrief, anger and shame for
(39:54):
making such a difficult andnecessary decision is possible.
If you are considering a nocontact boundary with someone
that you're close to or you needsupport and healing from
estrangement, pick up Sharon'sbook cutting ties with Parents
at the link in the show notes orwherever you find your books.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
(40:15):
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSP resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
Strengths on Instagram, tiktokand YouTube, Check out the show
notes or sensitivestoriescom forall the resources from today's
(40:37):
episode.
Thanks for listening.
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