March 4, 2025 • 45 mins
Are you burning out trying to make change and fight injustice? In this episode, I talk with Dorcas Cheng-Tozun about sustainable social advocacy and:
• The six roles of social justice work
• Why the extroverted activist ideal isn’t accurate or sustainable
• Pacing yourself and taking time for rest to make more impact in your volunteer or nonprofit work
• Benefits of having diverse personalities and interdependent communities
Dorcas is a writer, editor, communications consultant, and longtime nonprofit professional. She is the author of three books and currently teaches design thinking and social innovation to high school students. A Silicon Valley native, Dorcas has also lived in mainland China, Hong Kong, and Kenya.
Keep in touch with Dorcas:
• Website: http://www.chengtozun.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chengtozun
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/chengtozun
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chengtozun
Resources Mentioned:
• Social Justice for the Sensitive Soul by Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9781506483436
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (00:00):
I will do what I can when I can, and then
I will step back when it is notmy time.
That's a much healthier, muchmore humane approach to how to
advocate for change.
April Snow (00:23):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
(00:45):
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withDorcas Chang-Tosen about the
importance of pacing yourselfand relying on others when
you're highly sensitive, as wellas the many ways you can
sustainably make an impact onthe causes and injustices that
you care about most.
Impact on the causes andinjustices that you care about
most without burning out in theprocess.
(01:06):
Dorcas is a writer, editor,communications consultant and
longtime non-profit professional.
She is the author of threebooks and currently teaches
design thinking and socialinnovation to high school
students.
A Silicon Valley native, dorcashas also lived in mainland
China, hong Kong and Kenya.
(01:28):
For more HSP resources and tosee behind-the-scenes video from
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
(01:50):
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in.
Hi Dorcas, welcome to thepodcast.
(02:16):
Thanks, april, so glad to behere.
Yeah, same.
I'm wondering if we could startoff by hearing your HSP
discovery story, if you rememberhow or when you found out that
you're a highly sensitive person.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (02:28):
Yeah, it was probably almost 10 years ago.
At this point I have an oldersister.
She studied psychology incollege and so she does a lot of
reading, and she told me oneday she said I discovered this
personality type called a highlysensitive person.
I know I'm highly sensitive andI think you are too, and, as is
(02:50):
often the case when our oldersiblings tell us things, at
first I totally disregarded whatshe said and I'm like I'm sure
she's wrong.
And then, the more I lookedinto it, it actually probably
was a couple of years before Irevisited the idea.
And then, of course, I pickedup Dr Elaine Aron's book and
read Highly Sensitive Person andthen realized my sister is
(03:12):
right, I am definitely a highlysensitive person.
And as I've leaned into thatrecognition, it's just become
more and more clear over timeLike, oh yes, this is very much
who I am and it actuallyexplains a lot about how I have
responded to the world, how Ifunction in relationships, and
so it's been really helpful tohave that framework.
April Snow (03:37):
It really is, isn't it?
I know there's often thatresistance at first yes, one
could be rebellion or notwanting to accept that about
ourselves, I'm curious was thereanything specific about
sensitivity that you pushedagainst, that you weren't
wanting to accept?
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (03:52):
Yeah, I think that as a kid, obviously I
was highly sensitive and itdefinitely was not looked upon
favorably by my parents andothers.
Right, it was seen as weakness,as sort of not being able to
deal with the world.
And I think by that time, youknow, I was deep into my
(04:14):
professional career.
So I had been working in thenonprofit sector for a number of
years and was doing work thatwas not easy and involved a lot
of engaging with folks who haddifferent opinions and kind of
standing up for my own beliefs,and that was extremely difficult
for me, even though I believedso strongly in what I was doing
(04:36):
and I wanted to be really goodat it.
I think there was this sense ofif I'm too sensitive, I just
can't do this work, and so therewas resistance in that regard
of I don't want to be this kindof person because I want to be
the super strong, you knowunflappable leader who can have
anything thrown at them and I'mjust going to dust myself off
(04:57):
and pick myself up and keep ongoing and it's no big deal.
And, yeah, ultimately that'sjust not who.
I was, as much as I wish to bethat kind of person.
April Snow (05:06):
I know we do Right.
It's so interesting to me that,as sensitive people, we are the
ones that are mostconscientious, justice minded.
We see what's wrong and whoneeds support and what needs
change, but yet we are soimpacted and we have limited
capacities.
So there's that fight of how doI answer that call but then
(05:29):
honor my sensitivity.
It's such a hard balance.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (05:32):
Absolutely.
There's very much this push andpull of.
I think we are drawn to workthat serves others, that makes
life better for others, thatreally speaks to our heart and
soul and the hearts and souls ofothers.
We are so sensitive to what iswrong in the world, what is
(05:53):
unfair, what is unjust whenothers are suffering, right.
I mean, it is so, so hard tosee it, to read about it, to
come face to face with it, and Ithink that's one of the most
beautiful things about sensitiveindividuals is that we see it
and we want to do somethingabout it.
We want to be there for peoplewho are really going through a
hard time and we want to makethings right At the same time.
(06:15):
Yes, we cannot expect to go intothose kinds of spaces without
experiencing some sort of painourselves, right, whether that
be emotional, which cancertainly lead to physical pain,
as I've experienced as well.
And so that, I think, isultimately why I wrote this book
(06:35):
, because it was a question thathad been plaguing me for, at
that point, almost two decadesof my life, ever since finishing
college.
But this question of how is itthat the work that I feel so
called to do, that I am sopassionate about and means the
world to me at the same time, isthe work that is causing me so
(06:57):
much harm.
So I had burned out over andover again, was pretty much on
this regular cycle of every twoyears and over again was pretty
much on this regular cycle ofevery two years, would get
burned out and they wouldsuccessively get worse each
successive burnout to the pointwhere, you know, there have been
a couple of times where I'vejust been in bed, unable to
function, for months at a time,and I could not understand that,
(07:20):
right?
Because we are taught and Icertainly still believe this,
although with somequalifications around it that
when we do what we are called todo right, that everything will
fall into place, that it'll justfeel amazing and we will have
everything we need to do what wewant to do right.
And so it just.
(07:41):
It was this conundrum that Icould not untangle until it was
actually during the pandemic.
I went on a long walk becausethat was all we could do during
the pandemic, right?
And I was thinking about thisquestion, and then the title of
the book just popped into myhead and I realized that's
ultimately what I have beenwrestling with is what does
(08:05):
social justice for the sensitivesoul look like?
And I was thinking well, Ican't be the only one that is
struggling with this.
And so then that's where thisbook came from.
April Snow (08:17):
Yeah, such a needed book and topic to explore, and
you're definitely not the onlyHSP who's grappling with this,
but it often can.
It can feel lonely, like, well,everyone, I see what, everyone
else doing this and pushingthemselves and showing up, and
you know why can't I do it?
At least, this is just my ownpersonal thoughts and not to
speak for you.
And so this book comes out andI just want to hold up for
(08:38):
anyone watching this on video.
Dorka's book has beendefinitely an anchor for me and
I've used it with clients whoare grappling with the same
questions.
You know how do I live myvalues of social justice and
engagement sustainably?
It's really hard to do, and Iwant to just read a quote from
the book, because this one stoodout to me and just to give
(09:01):
folks a little sense.
Stood out to me and just givefolks a little sense.
It says one of the greatestopportunities and challenges for
sensitive justice advocates isto find meaningful forms of
engagement that uniquely fit us.
It will probably not look likewhat most activists are doing,
because most activists are notsensitive and empathetic to the
same degree.
It could very well involvebuilding your own role or
(09:23):
charting your own path, one thatmay or may not be
understandable to those aroundyou.
And just this last line, whichI love, is history is full of
social justice heroes who havecarved their own niches,
operated on their own timelinesand spoken up for change through
different avenues at differentvolumes.
I love that because I think itspeaks to what we need to do as
sensitive people in general,which is follow our own path,
(09:45):
create it from scratch sometimes.
But what could that look like?
What have you discovered thatsocial justice could be for an
HSP?
Because in the book you talkabout you could be on the front
lines.
That's kind of the generalimage, but what are the other
options for us?
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (10:08):
Yeah, well, I want to add to that first,
which is, I think that those arethe models that we see most
frequently, right, the personwho's leading the march, the
person who's standing behind themicrophone those are the folks
who oftentimes get the mostattention.
They're the ones that arewritten down in history, which
is all well and good.
We absolutely do need peoplelike that in every social
movement.
But I think that is part of whatmakes it hard right.
Those are the individuals whoare held up to us as the epitome
(10:31):
of what it means to advocatefor justice.
And yet, as I was doingresearch for this book, what was
so encouraging to me was thatbehind every one of those
individuals right, like everyMartin Luther King, behind them
are tens of thousands, if nothundreds of thousands, of
individuals who are supportingthe very same cause, but in
(10:56):
quieter ways that don'tnecessarily gain as much
attention, but are criticalright.
Nobody would have heard DrKing's message except that he
had this entire groundswell ofcommunities, individuals,
families behind him, supportinghim, promoting the very same
(11:16):
message in every little cornerthat they operated in, and so I
think that's been a reallyhelpful reminder for me of you
know, movements are not made ofindividual leaders.
Movements are made of so manypeople across so many different
areas of society and industriesand professions, and you know,
(11:38):
you name it.
We need all kinds ofpersonality types, all kinds of
gifts contributing to the changethat we want to see right.
Social challenges are really,really complicated.
They're really difficult to movethe needle even a bit, and so
if we can approach change in ahost of creative ways, why not
(12:06):
do that right?
Why only feel like we have tobe protesting or canvassing or
you know?
There are so many differentapproaches to what social
justice work can look like, soin my book I highlight six
different categories of justicework that have historically been
(12:28):
very effective.
So one of my favorite parts ofwriting this book was just
finding lots of stories ofpeople in history, some more
hidden, some less hidden, butstories of people who have
engaged in justice work in whatwe might think of as
unconventional ways, whenactually this has been going on
for decades, if not centuries,and seeing the now, looking back
(12:51):
, we can see the impact of theirwork.
It wasn't that they were justgoing through the motions, that
they were just on the sidelines,but the work that they did
really, truly mattered and itmade a significant impact in the
causes that they cared about.
And this is certainly not meantto be completely inclusive.
(13:13):
This is more about giving usjust other ideas, other
possibilities to think of, andthere may be dozens more that
others can come up with, whichis wonderful, but the six
categories that I focused onwere people who are connectors,
and so that's individuals whojust are very relationally
focused, very much aboutbuilding friendship, building
bridges, having respectful, kindconversations with others,
(13:37):
underestimate what can happenthrough one-on-one interactions,
that in which we enter into itwith genuine empathy and a
desire to understand the otherperson.
There is so much personal,interpersonal transformation
that can happen through thoseinteractions, and so those are
(14:00):
essential to our society movingtoward, you know where we would
like it to be.
So those are essential to oursociety moving toward, you know
where we would like it to be.
Secondly, I talk about creatives.
So you know, artists of anyform.
Artists have always been at theheart of social movements.
They help express what ourgreatest hopes are.
They help paint, sometimesliterally, a vision of where it
(14:25):
is that we want to be headed,how our world could be different
.
And those works of art inspireus, encourage us, unite us.
They keep us together, right?
You think of the civil rightsmovement and how central music
was to the civil rights movement, right?
And there's so many othermovements where it's music, it's
visual arts, it's dance, it'swriting.
(14:47):
The work of artists is soessential to wanting to create
social change.
I talk about record keepers thisis a really fun chapter to
write People who are librarians,historians, archivists.
They help us remember historyand document what injustices
(15:08):
have happened in the past, howcan we right those wrongs, what
mistakes have we made that wecould do differently in the
future.
That kind of learning is really, really critical for us
thinking about where we want togo, and one interesting thing
that I discovered in my researchis that oftentimes, when you
have authoritarian leaders andgovernments that come into power
(15:30):
, it is not uncommon that amongthe first people that they will
target are historians,archivists, librarians, museums,
anywhere where there are thekeepers of like.
This is our narrative, this iswho we are, this is who has had
power in the past, this is who'sbeen ignored and oppressed in
(15:52):
the past or even currently, andthose are the kinds of
narratives that authoritarianfigures want to squash.
They don't want people to havethat knowledge and that
awareness, and so the work ofrecord keepers is so essential.
I talk about builders.
So these are engineers,inventors, who are creating
technologies that are going tokind of help provide more equity
(16:14):
, give people more opportunity.
We still are very much in needof new inventions that help,
certainly at this point in time,bridge the digital divide, but
there's so many other inequitieswhen it comes to technology and
access to technology.
I talk about equippers, sothose are teachers, coaches,
(16:34):
mentors, anyone who is kind ofbuilding up the next generation,
which could be any age, I wouldsay the next generation of
leaders and activists.
We absolutely need thoseindividuals, because none of us
are born knowing how to dosocial change.
We need somebody to teach us andI talk about researchers the
(16:54):
importance of academics andscientists who really look deep
into what is going on in ourworld, what is going on in our
communities.
How can we better understandthe challenges before us?
What are the root causes?
What are the things that canmake a difference?
We need that data, we need thatinformation so that we can make
(17:15):
wise choices about where do weleverage our influence, where do
we try to make an impact thatcan truly kind of ripple out and
lead to these larger societalchanges that we're really hoping
for?
So those are just six differentpossibilities, and even within
each of those there's a coupledozen different ways you could
approach it.
(17:35):
But my hope is just to kind ofspark a little bit of that
inspiration and creativitywithin individuals of like.
Maybe one of these works foryou, maybe it's something else,
maybe it's a combination of youknow two, three, four of these.
I've definitely moved betweenquite a number of these and I
think not only are these great,high impact ways to try to
(17:55):
leverage change, but they arealso roles that might feel a
little bit like a better fit forindividuals who are highly
sensitive, highly empathic, whowant to do something really
meaningful, but maybe can'tquite be on the front lines or
can't quite be, you know,staring suffering in the eyes
(18:16):
every single day, but it stillgets us very close to action,
still makes us central to thework that is being done.
April Snow (18:25):
I mean all these roles are so critical.
Action still makes us centralto the work that is being done.
I mean all these roles are socritical In every system.
You need record keepers, youneed teachers, you need
relationship builders andsensitive people are so gifted
at these roles.
And I appreciate the reminderthat we need diversity.
I think there's that extrovertideal or these other ideals that
(18:48):
we uphold in all these parts ofour lives, but we need
diversity in personality, inrace, in gender, and it's not
just Martin Luther King at themicrophone giving the speech,
it's all the people behind him.
And I really appreciate thatreminder because these roles are
equally as important or evenmore so.
So I remember in my 20s I wasvery active.
(19:11):
I was trying to push myselfinto that box Protest, be on the
front lines, give speeches,knock on doors for campaigns,
and it was such a stretch and Ijust burnt out.
But knowing that the other,well I will say I started
realizing then just howimportant the behind the scenes
(19:31):
work was, the long-term work,not just being out there at a
rally.
That doesn't move the needlethat much.
It's making the phone calls,it's doing the legwork and I
appreciate how you said theseare all high impact.
They're important.
Those are not less than theflashy stereotypical activists
that we think of, that archetype, yeah.
(19:51):
So I'm wondering let's say, westart to expand our view of
social justice and engagementEven still as we step into
different roles, how do we keepit sustainable?
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (20:03):
Yeah, I think that is such a huge
question I know it's such a bigquestion.
Yes, well, I think part of it isa huge part of it is just like
you don't have to be theprotester at the front line.
You also do not have to be theperson who, day in, day out,
(20:24):
24-7, is constantly doing thework right, there is very much
this culture and for a long timeI thought it was just me.
I thought I was like is it justsomething's wrong with me?
But I realized when I was doingresearch for this book that
there's actually a growing bodyof research.
(20:44):
There are these wonderfulsociologists and psychologists
who are studying the culture ofactivism and how do activists
function, what do they say toeach other, how do they interact
amongst one another?
And there has been nowscientifically documented very
(21:04):
much this culture ofself-sacrifice, of you have to
be 100% committed to the causeand anything less is considered
unacceptable.
There is this kind of almostpolicing that happens among
activists, where anyone whowants to take a little time off,
(21:25):
who wants to take a break, whoneeds a nap, who wants to go on
vacation, they are activelyshamed for not being dedicated
to the cause.
But the thing is, we all knowthis and yet I feel like
sometimes we forget that we'renot robots, we're very much
human and the cost of thisculture of you have to like
(21:51):
constantly, it's always urgent,it's always now, it's always a
priority, and you cannot thinkabout anything.
I mean even your own personalhealth, your own family, right,
these are things that areexpected to be a distant second
to the cause that you're focusedon, but the amount of harm that
that causes is significant.
(22:13):
So the average activist burnsout in three to five years and
they're done.
I mean when I say burnout, theyare out of there.
It's not that they need a breakand they can come back, but the
vast majority of activists whoburnout completely move on
because, well, one, I think theyare so exhausted and two, I
(22:33):
don't think that they have beenshown that there are
possibilities for different waysof being engaged, that there
are possibilities for differentways of being engaged in
activism, that it doesn't haveto look like the way that a lot
of other people are doing it.
And you know there are thosefew who are going to be able to
go at that pace for maybedecades, but I don't think there
are that many.
(22:54):
I think the majority of us, andfor sensitive individuals in
particular, this idea of pacingis so critical, right?
So, at least for me, I thinkabout you, know.
Would I rather give, like mymind, heart, body, soul, for
three to five years, burnout,then be done, or would I rather
(23:16):
be able to kind of give myselfthe permission to do some of the
hard work, to rest, to do somemore of the hard work, right?
This very natural flow, it's avery human, it's part of who we
are as humans to have thisrhythm of engagement and rest,
and you'll find that the mostgrounded people are the people
(23:38):
who have found a rhythm forthemselves right.
It is not 24-7, 365 days a year,but it is.
You know, maybe I do it for afew months and I take a break,
maybe I do it for a couple ofyears and I take a break.
And so for me, the alternativeis that I operate with that kind
of rhythm and then I cansustain myself over years,
(24:01):
hopefully decades, and that, tome, is so much more meaningful
and I think that I can have amuch more significant impact on
the issues and the people that Icare about if I can stretch it
out over so many years, asopposed to like just this really
brightly burning flame for afew years and then you're just
(24:22):
done.
And I think that that points toanother uh thing, which is that
we need activists at all stagesof life.
Right, I mean the folks who areyoung and in their 20s high
energy, super passionate, verycritical, really important.
But we also need people who'vebeen around the block a few
times and who have a lot ofexperience, who've've seen a lot
of life, who can bring thatkind of wisdom and discernment
(24:44):
and perspective to our movementsas well.
Right, that sense of balance.
So I think this question ofpacing, of rhythm, of honestly
just giving ourselves permissionof being able to sort of ignore
, or at least not give as muchcredence to, the voices that are
telling us that we have to doeverything all at once.
It's just not possible.
(25:05):
We're human, we're limited justone person, you know.
And I think that that mentality, what I have found helpful, is
this idea that I'm certainly notin this alone, it is certainly
not all on my shoulders, right,I think not many of us would
want to admit it, but a lot ofus who are in this space, maybe
(25:27):
subconsciously, unconsciously,operate with the sense of like,
if I stop, then everything'sjust going to fall apart.
Right, it's like, it's on me.
I got to keep going and I thinkover time I have come to accept
it took me quite a while to gethere I come to accept that it's
actually not all on me.
There's a very small sliverthat is on me.
(25:49):
But I think part of the beautyof engaging in the kind of
rhythm where we do really valuerest, we value play, we value
relationships and our loved onesones, that it gives me the
opportunity to step back andothers to step forward.
And it's this beautifulinterdependence, it's this
(26:10):
wonderful sense of mutual trust,of like okay, like I, just I
need a break and I'm going totrust that someone else is going
to step in.
You know, and that's the wayit's always been, right, like
movements, any successful socialmovement has relied on so many
people, sometimes acrossgenerations.
Right Like the women's suffragemovement.
(26:31):
Conservatively, you could say,it lasted something like 70, 80
years and it was probably muchlonger than that, right.
So we're talking three, fourgenerations of leaders who
stepped up and then who steppedback and allowed others to step
in.
And I think that that's just.
There's something so humanizing, right about all of this of
recognizing the limitations inone another and ourselves and
(26:56):
yet being able to care for oneanother in the midst of that,
giving each other permission tocare for ourselves and those
closest to us and trusting thatthere are others who care about
this cause as much as I do, whocan do the work as well as I can
, and they're going to do it.
I will do what I can when I can, and then I will step back when
(27:20):
it is not my time, and I thinkthat that's a much healthier,
much more humane approach to howto advocate for change than
this kind of just relentless,you know, work you to the bone
until you're dust and havenothing left to give it.
Just yeah, I think we've.
It is never a good sign when wehave lost compassion, even for
(27:44):
one another right and forourselves, and I think that we
are our best versions ofourselves, which is who we want
to bring right To any cause, toany movement.
We want to bring our bestselves, and we can only be our
best selves when we havecompassion and empathy for
ourselves, for our co-laborers,for those closest to us, as well
(28:08):
as for others all around theworld.
And I think that that is part ofwhy sensitive individuals are
so important to our movements,because I think that we
inherently know that and if wetry to live differently, things
go pretty badly for us.
(28:28):
So we are the individuals whocan model what that looks like
for ourselves, for those aroundus, and I do think that our
activist movements in generalnowadays just sort of need a
significant infusion of thatcompassion and that empathy,
even for one another.
And what's beautiful about bothcompassion and empathy is that
(28:51):
they are not finite resources,right, and the more we express
them, because I think there'sthis belief of it feels selfish
somehow to have compassionateempathy for yourself, but I
think that that's assumingsomehow to have compassionate
empathy for yourself, but Ithink that that's assuming that
if you have it for yourself youcan't have it for others.
But the reality is that themore compassionate empathy you
express toward yourself andthose closest to you, the more
(29:13):
it multiplies, the more capacityyou have to express
compassionate empathy for evenmore people, half to express
compassion and empathy for evenmore people.
And so it's this wonderful kindof self-perpetuating cycle that
creates, you know, greater andgreater beauty around us.
And if we forget that, if wekind of forget that starting
point, then I think things cankind of start to fall apart in
(29:35):
how we interact with others, howwe care for others,
professionally and personally.
April Snow (29:40):
There's so many profound life lessons in how we
approach this work sustainablyleaning on community, including
our elders as teachers,equippers, taking care of
ourselves so we can take care ofothers, and going at our own
pace.
You're so right that sensitivepeople are the ones that kind of
the canaries in the coal mine.
(30:01):
Yes, we help everyone else staybalanced and regulated and out
of danger, but there is thaturgency right, like I've got to
fix this right now and it's allon me and I appreciate that.
You said, if I stop that it'sall going to stop, but it's not
true.
We're interconnected, we'releaning on each other and it's
more of a relay race than asprint and it's a very long race
(30:24):
.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (30:24):
Keep that in mind.
April Snow (30:26):
Yes, Exactly that's something I've had to realize
over the past few decades is thework is never done and, as
we're seeing now, we're nowreturning to work.
We thought we did.
So we have to really bolsterourselves.
Yes, to keep going.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (30:44):
Yes, I love the example of Gandhi is one of
these rare individuals who, asfar as you know everything we
can see in his writing and howhe talked, he seems like he was
a very highly sensitive personand yet somehow he also ended up
at the front of a movement.
I think that might be a littleunusual, but as I was digging
(31:04):
deeper into his life I mean thisrhythm right that I've been
talking about, about engagementand rest it was very much a part
of who he was right.
So we hear about these bigactions that he took.
Right, he would, you know, fast, for a very long time, or he
would go on these walks for avery long time and marches, but
in between, right and these arethe quiet moments that we don't
(31:27):
hear about as much he would go,do you know one big action and
then he would rest for months.
He would go back to his ashramand like, just meditate, hang
out.
It wasn't like he wasconstantly having meetings and
strategizing and you know, hangout.
It wasn't like he wasconstantly having meetings and
writing books endlessly, but hewas just resting, meditating,
(31:49):
recentering himself, regatheringhimself.
He would spend time with lovedones.
He might have an occasionalmeeting here or there, but it
really was a retreat for him andit was recovery from what he
had just completed and it waspreparation for what was to come
right.
And if we were to map out thisis probably not the best way to
(32:09):
think of our lives, but maybe ahelpful visual, like if we had
sort of a pie chart of Gandhi'slife right, and I mean the
actions that he engaged in, Imean maybe it was like 10% of
his time right, and then therewas a significant amount of
other time that he engaged in.
I mean maybe it was like 10% ofhis time right, and then there
was a significant amount ofother time that he's doing other
things.
And yet we look at him as hewas so incredibly effective.
(32:30):
And I think that a huge part ofthat and his ability to be so
consistent in who he was andwhat he taught and he led others
I think a huge part of that isbecause he had these long
periods of grounding himself,ensuring that he was in a good
(32:50):
and healthy place emotionally,spiritually, physically, before
he was ready to move on to thenext step.
April Snow (32:58):
See, these are the things we don't hear about,
right, because we think ofGandhi or other leaders.
We think they're always on thefront lines, and no, you have to
retreat and you have torecharge and gather the energy
to go out again.
So even if you are an HSB who'smore of an active playing, an
(33:18):
active part, you have to findthat counterbalance.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (33:22):
Yes.
And not only, I think, is therisk, but there are other risks,
Like even I have found thatwithin activist circles there's
a lot of anger.
Anger is completelyunderstandable.
There's a lot in the world tobe angry about.
(34:00):
No-transcript we don't mean todirect it toward, and there can
be this sense of, you know, usversus the world, you versus me,
and it makes it harder, I think, to connect with others, to try
to see the good in others, evento maintain a sense of hope
that, in the midst of all of thehard things going on in this
(34:23):
world, if we just see it allthrough the lens of anger, I
think that will ultimately pointus toward despair.
And when we fall into despair,which I am guilty of, it's
paralyzing.
And I think to not get stuck inthat place, to not
inadvertently hurt otherswithout meaning to right, we
(34:44):
need to do the work forourselves, to make sure that we
are getting what we need right,whatever sustenance, whatever
form that sustenance takes, sothat we can be in the world, be
a part of these movements andthese actions, truly from a
spirit of love and compassionand wanting what is good and
(35:07):
beautiful for everyone, not justfor the people who are just
like me, or not just for thepeople who are standing next to
me, but truly right.
Dr King talked a lot about thesense of beloved community,
which is sort of the ultimateplace where we would love to end
up.
It feels so far away, butwithin this beloved community it
(35:27):
is not one people group versusrecognize the humanity in
everyone and we can connect witheveryone and offer them the
dignity and the respect and thehonor, even if we don't agree on
(35:48):
everything.
Right, they're very differentfrom us because it is that kind
of coming together, that kind ofcrossing differences, where I
believe true change can happen.
If we continue to put up thesewalls and barriers and draw
these really clear dividinglines between my tribe and yours
, change is only going to happenwithin your very small circle
(36:09):
until you're able to truly speak, to connect with care for
people who are beyond thatcircle.
April Snow (36:16):
Like you said, those one-to-one connections, those
relationships are so importantand thinking about how are you
coming into relationship?
Are you coming in angry andburnt out and tired and
resentful?
Are you coming in rested andresourced so you can have open
conversations and make apositive impact?
It's really important.
Yeah Well, Dorcas, thank you somuch for this conversation.
(36:38):
Before we start to wrap up, Ijust want to see if there's any
final message that you'd like toshare with the HSPs listening
who are wanting to step moreinto these six roles or beyond
doing social justice work.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (36:52):
Yeah, I think.
One other point I bring up isit's okay to experiment.
I had this strange idea in myteens and 20s that I had to know
exactly who I was and what Iwas called to do and what job
description perfectly fit that.
(37:13):
All kinds of things, verydifferent jobs in different
sectors, addressing differentcauses and I have come to
recognize that that's just partof the journey.
Is that it's okay to sort ofdip your toe in and like I don't
know if this organization orthis cause is for me.
Maybe I'll just volunteer for acouple hours, maybe I'll just
(37:34):
have a conversation with someonewho's done this work before,
maybe I'll take this job.
But I'm only going to you knowfor sure commit for one year and
then let's see how it goesright, it is okay to experiment,
to try things out, to trythings on and to see how they
fit you and if something doesn'tfit you, then to move on.
But I believe that there is nowasted experience, right, that
(37:57):
anything you try there will besomething really valuable.
You learn, even if it's hard,even if you realize this is not
what I want to do, but everystep that you take moves you a
little bit closer to a betterunderstanding of who you are,
who your best version ofyourself is, what brings you joy
, because I think that also wasreally missing in my work for a
(38:21):
very long time.
I felt like I could only bedoing good work if I was
suffering and miserable, youknow.
And yet I think a huge part ofthat answer to what
sustainability looks like is joy.
Huge part of that answer towhat sustainability looks like
is joy.
What does it look like to findjoy in the midst of the hard
(38:42):
work?
It is absolutely hard work, butthere should be something in
there that kind of just makesyour soul sing, and I think that
that is what will help youcontinue to have hope, continue
to move forward and continue todo the work, even when it can be
discouraging, even when we takesteps backward.
So to give yourself a lot ofpermission to be creative, to
(39:05):
try things out, to not feel likeyou have to do it the way that
that other person is doing it,because we need you just the way
you are and the particularpersonality you have, the
particular gifts, passions andinterests you bring.
That's who the world needs, andso I really do hope.
It is my greatest hope and I'mvery much still on this journey,
(39:26):
but it's my greatest hope forfellow HSPs and empaths to
really embrace that, torecognize like, hey, this is me
and who I am is exactly who theworld needs.
Just need to find those spaceshere and there where I can go
and where I can shine for thebenefit of others.
April Snow (39:46):
I love it so much Just permission to be yourself,
and that there can be room toexperiment and try things on and
figure it out along the way.
I know we tend to want to waituntil we're absolutely ready and
it's perfect, but we can figureit out on the journey.
I love this concept of joy andI'll ask you one last question
(40:09):
before we go is could you giveme an example, maybe from your
own experience or somethingyou've seen?
What does that look like?
Well, where could joy come fromin activist work?
Because it does seem so heavyall the time, and I just love
hearing this.
I'm wondering if you couldshare a little example.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (40:26):
Yeah, Well, I think you probably need joy
from a few different sourcesbecause of the heaviness of the
work.
I do think that there issomething in us that when we are
doing something that just fitsexactly who we are right.
So I am a creative person.
I mean, certainly I lovewriting and I love other forms
(40:49):
of art.
But if I can find any sort ofcreativity within a role that
I'm doing right Like maybe I amdeveloping a new marketing
campaign, maybe I am building upa new program I just I recently
started teaching and I wasbuilding a new class and a new
curriculum from scratch and thatcreativity it just felt like I
(41:12):
was coming alive, being able toexpress my creativity in that
way right.
So part of it is this questionof is this work truly a fit for
who you are, what you're giftedat, what you just really enjoy,
what you really enjoy doingright?
And I think that's somethingreally important to know and
something really important toprioritize and to chase after.
(41:34):
It is absolutely worth it to bein a job or volunteer position
where it's something that youreally just enjoy doing.
And then, secondly, I would saythat the joy certainly comes in
relationships, and those aroundus in community Cried a lot in
the jobs that I've had and Ihave laughed uncontrollably with
(41:55):
people that I work with, withhad, and I have laughed
uncontrollably, you know, withpeople that I work with, with
clients, and I think that we allneed that right To just
remember the sort of ridiculousthings in life.
Humans are really funny, and socan we find the humor in what is
happening around us, and Ithink that is so good, so good
(42:17):
for us, for our souls, for oneanother, and I think at least
for me.
You know I'm also an introvert,and so joy for me does come in
those times of retreat andwithdrawal and rest, where I get
to do things that I really love, you know, going out in nature
and painting and writing andwatching great movies and
(42:41):
binging on.
April Snow (42:42):
Netflix occasionally .
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (42:43):
That's okay, but those, yeah, I think
finding those little pockets ofjoy, ideally, you know, at least
every day.
It's like that fuel that justkeeps going, keeps us
remembering who we are, what webring to the world, and it is
ultimately going to keep ushealthier and more grounded and
(43:05):
allow us to have a moresignificant impact in whatever
we do.
April Snow (43:09):
So we can laugh, we can be joyful, we can rest, we
can take breaks.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (43:14):
Yes.
April Snow (43:14):
Yes, thank you so much for that.
I will make sure I share yourbooks, your website, your social
media in the show notes forfolks so they can dive in and
deepen into this conversationfor themselves.
So thank you so much, dorcas.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (43:28):
Of course, thanks for having me, april.
I really enjoyed this Thank you.
April Snow (43:39):
Thanks so much for joining me and Dorcas for
today's conversation.
What I hope you'll remember isthat you don't have to do it all
by yourself, and you don't haveto do it all today, whether
that's taking care of your workand family or fighting social
justice causes.
For more guidance insustainably supporting your
community and getting involvedin social justice work, pick up
(44:02):
Dorkus' book Social Justice forthe Sensitive Soul.
You'll find the link in theshow notes.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSP resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
(44:25):
Strengths on Instagram, tiktokand YouTube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
I will do what I can when I can, and then
I will step back when it is notmy time.
That's a much healthier, muchmore humane approach to how to
advocate for change.
April Snow (00:23):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
(00:45):
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withDorcas Chang-Tosen about the
importance of pacing yourselfand relying on others when
you're highly sensitive, as wellas the many ways you can
sustainably make an impact onthe causes and injustices that
you care about most.
Impact on the causes andinjustices that you care about
most without burning out in theprocess.
(01:06):
Dorcas is a writer, editor,communications consultant and
longtime non-profit professional.
She is the author of threebooks and currently teaches
design thinking and socialinnovation to high school
students.
A Silicon Valley native, dorcashas also lived in mainland
China, hong Kong and Kenya.
(01:28):
For more HSP resources and tosee behind-the-scenes video from
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
(01:50):
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in.
Hi Dorcas, welcome to thepodcast.
(02:16):
Thanks, april, so glad to behere.
Yeah, same.
I'm wondering if we could startoff by hearing your HSP
discovery story, if you rememberhow or when you found out that
you're a highly sensitive person.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (02:28):
Yeah, it was probably almost 10 years ago.
At this point I have an oldersister.
She studied psychology incollege and so she does a lot of
reading, and she told me oneday she said I discovered this
personality type called a highlysensitive person.
I know I'm highly sensitive andI think you are too, and, as is
(02:50):
often the case when our oldersiblings tell us things, at
first I totally disregarded whatshe said and I'm like I'm sure
she's wrong.
And then, the more I lookedinto it, it actually probably
was a couple of years before Irevisited the idea.
And then, of course, I pickedup Dr Elaine Aron's book and
read Highly Sensitive Person andthen realized my sister is
(03:12):
right, I am definitely a highlysensitive person.
And as I've leaned into thatrecognition, it's just become
more and more clear over timeLike, oh yes, this is very much
who I am and it actuallyexplains a lot about how I have
responded to the world, how Ifunction in relationships, and
so it's been really helpful tohave that framework.
April Snow (03:37):
It really is, isn't it?
I know there's often thatresistance at first yes, one
could be rebellion or notwanting to accept that about
ourselves, I'm curious was thereanything specific about
sensitivity that you pushedagainst, that you weren't
wanting to accept?
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (03:52):
Yeah, I think that as a kid, obviously I
was highly sensitive and itdefinitely was not looked upon
favorably by my parents andothers.
Right, it was seen as weakness,as sort of not being able to
deal with the world.
And I think by that time, youknow, I was deep into my
(04:14):
professional career.
So I had been working in thenonprofit sector for a number of
years and was doing work thatwas not easy and involved a lot
of engaging with folks who haddifferent opinions and kind of
standing up for my own beliefs,and that was extremely difficult
for me, even though I believedso strongly in what I was doing
(04:36):
and I wanted to be really goodat it.
I think there was this sense ofif I'm too sensitive, I just
can't do this work, and so therewas resistance in that regard
of I don't want to be this kindof person because I want to be
the super strong, you knowunflappable leader who can have
anything thrown at them and I'mjust going to dust myself off
(04:57):
and pick myself up and keep ongoing and it's no big deal.
And, yeah, ultimately that'sjust not who.
I was, as much as I wish to bethat kind of person.
April Snow (05:06):
I know we do Right.
It's so interesting to me that,as sensitive people, we are the
ones that are mostconscientious, justice minded.
We see what's wrong and whoneeds support and what needs
change, but yet we are soimpacted and we have limited
capacities.
So there's that fight of how doI answer that call but then
(05:29):
honor my sensitivity.
It's such a hard balance.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (05:32):
Absolutely.
There's very much this push andpull of.
I think we are drawn to workthat serves others, that makes
life better for others, thatreally speaks to our heart and
soul and the hearts and souls ofothers.
We are so sensitive to what iswrong in the world, what is
(05:53):
unfair, what is unjust whenothers are suffering, right.
I mean, it is so, so hard tosee it, to read about it, to
come face to face with it, and Ithink that's one of the most
beautiful things about sensitiveindividuals is that we see it
and we want to do somethingabout it.
We want to be there for peoplewho are really going through a
hard time and we want to makethings right At the same time.
(06:15):
Yes, we cannot expect to go intothose kinds of spaces without
experiencing some sort of painourselves, right, whether that
be emotional, which cancertainly lead to physical pain,
as I've experienced as well.
And so that, I think, isultimately why I wrote this book
(06:35):
, because it was a question thathad been plaguing me for, at
that point, almost two decadesof my life, ever since finishing
college.
But this question of how is itthat the work that I feel so
called to do, that I am sopassionate about and means the
world to me at the same time, isthe work that is causing me so
(06:57):
much harm.
So I had burned out over andover again, was pretty much on
this regular cycle of every twoyears and over again was pretty
much on this regular cycle ofevery two years, would get
burned out and they wouldsuccessively get worse each
successive burnout to the pointwhere, you know, there have been
a couple of times where I'vejust been in bed, unable to
function, for months at a time,and I could not understand that,
(07:20):
right?
Because we are taught and Icertainly still believe this,
although with somequalifications around it that
when we do what we are called todo right, that everything will
fall into place, that it'll justfeel amazing and we will have
everything we need to do what wewant to do right.
And so it just.
(07:41):
It was this conundrum that Icould not untangle until it was
actually during the pandemic.
I went on a long walk becausethat was all we could do during
the pandemic, right?
And I was thinking about thisquestion, and then the title of
the book just popped into myhead and I realized that's
ultimately what I have beenwrestling with is what does
(08:05):
social justice for the sensitivesoul look like?
And I was thinking well, Ican't be the only one that is
struggling with this.
And so then that's where thisbook came from.
April Snow (08:17):
Yeah, such a needed book and topic to explore, and
you're definitely not the onlyHSP who's grappling with this,
but it often can.
It can feel lonely, like, well,everyone, I see what, everyone
else doing this and pushingthemselves and showing up, and
you know why can't I do it?
At least, this is just my ownpersonal thoughts and not to
speak for you.
And so this book comes out andI just want to hold up for
(08:38):
anyone watching this on video.
Dorka's book has beendefinitely an anchor for me and
I've used it with clients whoare grappling with the same
questions.
You know how do I live myvalues of social justice and
engagement sustainably?
It's really hard to do, and Iwant to just read a quote from
the book, because this one stoodout to me and just to give
(09:01):
folks a little sense.
Stood out to me and just givefolks a little sense.
It says one of the greatestopportunities and challenges for
sensitive justice advocates isto find meaningful forms of
engagement that uniquely fit us.
It will probably not look likewhat most activists are doing,
because most activists are notsensitive and empathetic to the
same degree.
It could very well involvebuilding your own role or
(09:23):
charting your own path, one thatmay or may not be
understandable to those aroundyou.
And just this last line, whichI love, is history is full of
social justice heroes who havecarved their own niches,
operated on their own timelinesand spoken up for change through
different avenues at differentvolumes.
I love that because I think itspeaks to what we need to do as
sensitive people in general,which is follow our own path,
(09:45):
create it from scratch sometimes.
But what could that look like?
What have you discovered thatsocial justice could be for an
HSP?
Because in the book you talkabout you could be on the front
lines.
That's kind of the generalimage, but what are the other
options for us?
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (10:08):
Yeah, well, I want to add to that first,
which is, I think that those arethe models that we see most
frequently, right, the personwho's leading the march, the
person who's standing behind themicrophone those are the folks
who oftentimes get the mostattention.
They're the ones that arewritten down in history, which
is all well and good.
We absolutely do need peoplelike that in every social
movement.
But I think that is part of whatmakes it hard right.
Those are the individuals whoare held up to us as the epitome
(10:31):
of what it means to advocatefor justice.
And yet, as I was doingresearch for this book, what was
so encouraging to me was thatbehind every one of those
individuals right, like everyMartin Luther King, behind them
are tens of thousands, if nothundreds of thousands, of
individuals who are supportingthe very same cause, but in
(10:56):
quieter ways that don'tnecessarily gain as much
attention, but are criticalright.
Nobody would have heard DrKing's message except that he
had this entire groundswell ofcommunities, individuals,
families behind him, supportinghim, promoting the very same
(11:16):
message in every little cornerthat they operated in, and so I
think that's been a reallyhelpful reminder for me of you
know, movements are not made ofindividual leaders.
Movements are made of so manypeople across so many different
areas of society and industriesand professions, and you know,
(11:38):
you name it.
We need all kinds ofpersonality types, all kinds of
gifts contributing to the changethat we want to see right.
Social challenges are really,really complicated.
They're really difficult to movethe needle even a bit, and so
if we can approach change in ahost of creative ways, why not
(12:06):
do that right?
Why only feel like we have tobe protesting or canvassing or
you know?
There are so many differentapproaches to what social
justice work can look like, soin my book I highlight six
different categories of justicework that have historically been
(12:28):
very effective.
So one of my favorite parts ofwriting this book was just
finding lots of stories ofpeople in history, some more
hidden, some less hidden, butstories of people who have
engaged in justice work in whatwe might think of as
unconventional ways, whenactually this has been going on
for decades, if not centuries,and seeing the now, looking back
(12:51):
, we can see the impact of theirwork.
It wasn't that they were justgoing through the motions, that
they were just on the sidelines,but the work that they did
really, truly mattered and itmade a significant impact in the
causes that they cared about.
And this is certainly not meantto be completely inclusive.
(13:13):
This is more about giving usjust other ideas, other
possibilities to think of, andthere may be dozens more that
others can come up with, whichis wonderful, but the six
categories that I focused onwere people who are connectors,
and so that's individuals whojust are very relationally
focused, very much aboutbuilding friendship, building
bridges, having respectful, kindconversations with others,
(13:37):
underestimate what can happenthrough one-on-one interactions,
that in which we enter into itwith genuine empathy and a
desire to understand the otherperson.
There is so much personal,interpersonal transformation
that can happen through thoseinteractions, and so those are
(14:00):
essential to our society movingtoward, you know where we would
like it to be.
So those are essential to oursociety moving toward, you know
where we would like it to be.
Secondly, I talk about creatives.
So you know, artists of anyform.
Artists have always been at theheart of social movements.
They help express what ourgreatest hopes are.
They help paint, sometimesliterally, a vision of where it
(14:25):
is that we want to be headed,how our world could be different
.
And those works of art inspireus, encourage us, unite us.
They keep us together, right?
You think of the civil rightsmovement and how central music
was to the civil rights movement, right?
And there's so many othermovements where it's music, it's
visual arts, it's dance, it'swriting.
(14:47):
The work of artists is soessential to wanting to create
social change.
I talk about record keepers thisis a really fun chapter to
write People who are librarians,historians, archivists.
They help us remember historyand document what injustices
(15:08):
have happened in the past, howcan we right those wrongs, what
mistakes have we made that wecould do differently in the
future.
That kind of learning is really, really critical for us
thinking about where we want togo, and one interesting thing
that I discovered in my researchis that oftentimes, when you
have authoritarian leaders andgovernments that come into power
(15:30):
, it is not uncommon that amongthe first people that they will
target are historians,archivists, librarians, museums,
anywhere where there are thekeepers of like.
This is our narrative, this iswho we are, this is who has had
power in the past, this is who'sbeen ignored and oppressed in
(15:52):
the past or even currently, andthose are the kinds of
narratives that authoritarianfigures want to squash.
They don't want people to havethat knowledge and that
awareness, and so the work ofrecord keepers is so essential.
I talk about builders.
So these are engineers,inventors, who are creating
technologies that are going tokind of help provide more equity
(16:14):
, give people more opportunity.
We still are very much in needof new inventions that help,
certainly at this point in time,bridge the digital divide, but
there's so many other inequitieswhen it comes to technology and
access to technology.
I talk about equippers, sothose are teachers, coaches,
(16:34):
mentors, anyone who is kind ofbuilding up the next generation,
which could be any age, I wouldsay the next generation of
leaders and activists.
We absolutely need thoseindividuals, because none of us
are born knowing how to dosocial change.
We need somebody to teach us andI talk about researchers the
(16:54):
importance of academics andscientists who really look deep
into what is going on in ourworld, what is going on in our
communities.
How can we better understandthe challenges before us?
What are the root causes?
What are the things that canmake a difference?
We need that data, we need thatinformation so that we can make
(17:15):
wise choices about where do weleverage our influence, where do
we try to make an impact thatcan truly kind of ripple out and
lead to these larger societalchanges that we're really hoping
for?
So those are just six differentpossibilities, and even within
each of those there's a coupledozen different ways you could
approach it.
(17:35):
But my hope is just to kind ofspark a little bit of that
inspiration and creativitywithin individuals of like.
Maybe one of these works foryou, maybe it's something else,
maybe it's a combination of youknow two, three, four of these.
I've definitely moved betweenquite a number of these and I
think not only are these great,high impact ways to try to
(17:55):
leverage change, but they arealso roles that might feel a
little bit like a better fit forindividuals who are highly
sensitive, highly empathic, whowant to do something really
meaningful, but maybe can'tquite be on the front lines or
can't quite be, you know,staring suffering in the eyes
(18:16):
every single day, but it stillgets us very close to action,
still makes us central to thework that is being done.
April Snow (18:25):
I mean all these roles are so critical.
Action still makes us centralto the work that is being done.
I mean all these roles are socritical In every system.
You need record keepers, youneed teachers, you need
relationship builders andsensitive people are so gifted
at these roles.
And I appreciate the reminderthat we need diversity.
I think there's that extrovertideal or these other ideals that
(18:48):
we uphold in all these parts ofour lives, but we need
diversity in personality, inrace, in gender, and it's not
just Martin Luther King at themicrophone giving the speech,
it's all the people behind him.
And I really appreciate thatreminder because these roles are
equally as important or evenmore so.
So I remember in my 20s I wasvery active.
(19:11):
I was trying to push myselfinto that box Protest, be on the
front lines, give speeches,knock on doors for campaigns,
and it was such a stretch and Ijust burnt out.
But knowing that the other,well I will say I started
realizing then just howimportant the behind the scenes
(19:31):
work was, the long-term work,not just being out there at a
rally.
That doesn't move the needlethat much.
It's making the phone calls,it's doing the legwork and I
appreciate how you said theseare all high impact.
They're important.
Those are not less than theflashy stereotypical activists
that we think of, that archetype, yeah.
(19:51):
So I'm wondering let's say, westart to expand our view of
social justice and engagementEven still as we step into
different roles, how do we keepit sustainable?
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (20:03):
Yeah, I think that is such a huge
question I know it's such a bigquestion.
Yes, well, I think part of it isa huge part of it is just like
you don't have to be theprotester at the front line.
You also do not have to be theperson who, day in, day out,
(20:24):
24-7, is constantly doing thework right, there is very much
this culture and for a long timeI thought it was just me.
I thought I was like is it justsomething's wrong with me?
But I realized when I was doingresearch for this book that
there's actually a growing bodyof research.
(20:44):
There are these wonderfulsociologists and psychologists
who are studying the culture ofactivism and how do activists
function, what do they say toeach other, how do they interact
amongst one another?
And there has been nowscientifically documented very
(21:04):
much this culture ofself-sacrifice, of you have to
be 100% committed to the causeand anything less is considered
unacceptable.
There is this kind of almostpolicing that happens among
activists, where anyone whowants to take a little time off,
(21:25):
who wants to take a break, whoneeds a nap, who wants to go on
vacation, they are activelyshamed for not being dedicated
to the cause.
But the thing is, we all knowthis and yet I feel like
sometimes we forget that we'renot robots, we're very much
human and the cost of thisculture of you have to like
(21:51):
constantly, it's always urgent,it's always now, it's always a
priority, and you cannot thinkabout anything.
I mean even your own personalhealth, your own family, right,
these are things that areexpected to be a distant second
to the cause that you're focusedon, but the amount of harm that
that causes is significant.
(22:13):
So the average activist burnsout in three to five years and
they're done.
I mean when I say burnout, theyare out of there.
It's not that they need a breakand they can come back, but the
vast majority of activists whoburnout completely move on
because, well, one, I think theyare so exhausted and two, I
(22:33):
don't think that they have beenshown that there are
possibilities for different waysof being engaged, that there
are possibilities for differentways of being engaged in
activism, that it doesn't haveto look like the way that a lot
of other people are doing it.
And you know there are thosefew who are going to be able to
go at that pace for maybedecades, but I don't think there
are that many.
(22:54):
I think the majority of us, andfor sensitive individuals in
particular, this idea of pacingis so critical, right?
So, at least for me, I thinkabout you, know.
Would I rather give, like mymind, heart, body, soul, for
three to five years, burnout,then be done, or would I rather
(23:16):
be able to kind of give myselfthe permission to do some of the
hard work, to rest, to do somemore of the hard work, right?
This very natural flow, it's avery human, it's part of who we
are as humans to have thisrhythm of engagement and rest,
and you'll find that the mostgrounded people are the people
(23:38):
who have found a rhythm forthemselves right.
It is not 24-7, 365 days a year,but it is.
You know, maybe I do it for afew months and I take a break,
maybe I do it for a couple ofyears and I take a break.
And so for me, the alternativeis that I operate with that kind
of rhythm and then I cansustain myself over years,
(24:01):
hopefully decades, and that, tome, is so much more meaningful
and I think that I can have amuch more significant impact on
the issues and the people that Icare about if I can stretch it
out over so many years, asopposed to like just this really
brightly burning flame for afew years and then you're just
(24:22):
done.
And I think that that points toanother uh thing, which is that
we need activists at all stagesof life.
Right, I mean the folks who areyoung and in their 20s high
energy, super passionate, verycritical, really important.
But we also need people who'vebeen around the block a few
times and who have a lot ofexperience, who've've seen a lot
of life, who can bring thatkind of wisdom and discernment
(24:44):
and perspective to our movementsas well.
Right, that sense of balance.
So I think this question ofpacing, of rhythm, of honestly
just giving ourselves permissionof being able to sort of ignore
, or at least not give as muchcredence to, the voices that are
telling us that we have to doeverything all at once.
It's just not possible.
(25:05):
We're human, we're limited justone person, you know.
And I think that that mentality, what I have found helpful, is
this idea that I'm certainly notin this alone, it is certainly
not all on my shoulders, right,I think not many of us would
want to admit it, but a lot ofus who are in this space, maybe
(25:27):
subconsciously, unconsciously,operate with the sense of like,
if I stop, then everything'sjust going to fall apart.
Right, it's like, it's on me.
I got to keep going and I thinkover time I have come to accept
it took me quite a while to gethere I come to accept that it's
actually not all on me.
There's a very small sliverthat is on me.
(25:49):
But I think part of the beautyof engaging in the kind of
rhythm where we do really valuerest, we value play, we value
relationships and our loved onesones, that it gives me the
opportunity to step back andothers to step forward.
And it's this beautifulinterdependence, it's this
(26:10):
wonderful sense of mutual trust,of like okay, like I, just I
need a break and I'm going totrust that someone else is going
to step in.
You know, and that's the wayit's always been, right, like
movements, any successful socialmovement has relied on so many
people, sometimes acrossgenerations.
Right Like the women's suffragemovement.
(26:31):
Conservatively, you could say,it lasted something like 70, 80
years and it was probably muchlonger than that, right.
So we're talking three, fourgenerations of leaders who
stepped up and then who steppedback and allowed others to step
in.
And I think that that's just.
There's something so humanizing, right about all of this of
recognizing the limitations inone another and ourselves and
(26:56):
yet being able to care for oneanother in the midst of that,
giving each other permission tocare for ourselves and those
closest to us and trusting thatthere are others who care about
this cause as much as I do, whocan do the work as well as I can
, and they're going to do it.
I will do what I can when I can, and then I will step back when
(27:20):
it is not my time, and I thinkthat that's a much healthier,
much more humane approach to howto advocate for change than
this kind of just relentless,you know, work you to the bone
until you're dust and havenothing left to give it.
Just yeah, I think we've.
It is never a good sign when wehave lost compassion, even for
(27:44):
one another right and forourselves, and I think that we
are our best versions ofourselves, which is who we want
to bring right To any cause, toany movement.
We want to bring our bestselves, and we can only be our
best selves when we havecompassion and empathy for
ourselves, for our co-laborers,for those closest to us, as well
(28:08):
as for others all around theworld.
And I think that that is part ofwhy sensitive individuals are
so important to our movements,because I think that we
inherently know that and if wetry to live differently, things
go pretty badly for us.
(28:28):
So we are the individuals whocan model what that looks like
for ourselves, for those aroundus, and I do think that our
activist movements in generalnowadays just sort of need a
significant infusion of thatcompassion and that empathy,
even for one another.
And what's beautiful about bothcompassion and empathy is that
(28:51):
they are not finite resources,right, and the more we express
them, because I think there'sthis belief of it feels selfish
somehow to have compassionateempathy for yourself, but I
think that that's assumingsomehow to have compassionate
empathy for yourself, but Ithink that that's assuming that
if you have it for yourself youcan't have it for others.
But the reality is that themore compassionate empathy you
express toward yourself andthose closest to you, the more
(29:13):
it multiplies, the more capacityyou have to express
compassionate empathy for evenmore people, half to express
compassion and empathy for evenmore people.
And so it's this wonderful kindof self-perpetuating cycle that
creates, you know, greater andgreater beauty around us.
And if we forget that, if wekind of forget that starting
point, then I think things cankind of start to fall apart in
(29:35):
how we interact with others, howwe care for others,
professionally and personally.
April Snow (29:40):
There's so many profound life lessons in how we
approach this work sustainablyleaning on community, including
our elders as teachers,equippers, taking care of
ourselves so we can take care ofothers, and going at our own
pace.
You're so right that sensitivepeople are the ones that kind of
the canaries in the coal mine.
(30:01):
Yes, we help everyone else staybalanced and regulated and out
of danger, but there is thaturgency right, like I've got to
fix this right now and it's allon me and I appreciate that.
You said, if I stop that it'sall going to stop, but it's not
true.
We're interconnected, we'releaning on each other and it's
more of a relay race than asprint and it's a very long race
(30:24):
.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (30:24):
Keep that in mind.
April Snow (30:26):
Yes, Exactly that's something I've had to realize
over the past few decades is thework is never done and, as
we're seeing now, we're nowreturning to work.
We thought we did.
So we have to really bolsterourselves.
Yes, to keep going.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (30:44):
Yes, I love the example of Gandhi is one of
these rare individuals who, asfar as you know everything we
can see in his writing and howhe talked, he seems like he was
a very highly sensitive personand yet somehow he also ended up
at the front of a movement.
I think that might be a littleunusual, but as I was digging
(31:04):
deeper into his life I mean thisrhythm right that I've been
talking about, about engagementand rest it was very much a part
of who he was right.
So we hear about these bigactions that he took.
Right, he would, you know, fast, for a very long time, or he
would go on these walks for avery long time and marches, but
in between, right and these arethe quiet moments that we don't
(31:27):
hear about as much he would go,do you know one big action and
then he would rest for months.
He would go back to his ashramand like, just meditate, hang
out.
It wasn't like he wasconstantly having meetings and
strategizing and you know, hangout.
It wasn't like he wasconstantly having meetings and
writing books endlessly, but hewas just resting, meditating,
(31:49):
recentering himself, regatheringhimself.
He would spend time with lovedones.
He might have an occasionalmeeting here or there, but it
really was a retreat for him andit was recovery from what he
had just completed and it waspreparation for what was to come
right.
And if we were to map out thisis probably not the best way to
(32:09):
think of our lives, but maybe ahelpful visual, like if we had
sort of a pie chart of Gandhi'slife right, and I mean the
actions that he engaged in, Imean maybe it was like 10% of
his time right, and then therewas a significant amount of
other time that he engaged in.
I mean maybe it was like 10% ofhis time right, and then there
was a significant amount ofother time that he's doing other
things.
And yet we look at him as hewas so incredibly effective.
(32:30):
And I think that a huge part ofthat and his ability to be so
consistent in who he was andwhat he taught and he led others
I think a huge part of that isbecause he had these long
periods of grounding himself,ensuring that he was in a good
(32:50):
and healthy place emotionally,spiritually, physically, before
he was ready to move on to thenext step.
April Snow (32:58):
See, these are the things we don't hear about,
right, because we think ofGandhi or other leaders.
We think they're always on thefront lines, and no, you have to
retreat and you have torecharge and gather the energy
to go out again.
So even if you are an HSB who'smore of an active playing, an
(33:18):
active part, you have to findthat counterbalance.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (33:22):
Yes.
And not only, I think, is therisk, but there are other risks,
Like even I have found thatwithin activist circles there's
a lot of anger.
Anger is completelyunderstandable.
There's a lot in the world tobe angry about.
(34:00):
No-transcript we don't mean todirect it toward, and there can
be this sense of, you know, usversus the world, you versus me,
and it makes it harder, I think, to connect with others, to try
to see the good in others, evento maintain a sense of hope
that, in the midst of all of thehard things going on in this
(34:23):
world, if we just see it allthrough the lens of anger, I
think that will ultimately pointus toward despair.
And when we fall into despair,which I am guilty of, it's
paralyzing.
And I think to not get stuck inthat place, to not
inadvertently hurt otherswithout meaning to right, we
(34:44):
need to do the work forourselves, to make sure that we
are getting what we need right,whatever sustenance, whatever
form that sustenance takes, sothat we can be in the world, be
a part of these movements andthese actions, truly from a
spirit of love and compassionand wanting what is good and
(35:07):
beautiful for everyone, not justfor the people who are just
like me, or not just for thepeople who are standing next to
me, but truly right.
Dr King talked a lot about thesense of beloved community,
which is sort of the ultimateplace where we would love to end
up.
It feels so far away, butwithin this beloved community it
(35:27):
is not one people group versusrecognize the humanity in
everyone and we can connect witheveryone and offer them the
dignity and the respect and thehonor, even if we don't agree on
(35:48):
everything.
Right, they're very differentfrom us because it is that kind
of coming together, that kind ofcrossing differences, where I
believe true change can happen.
If we continue to put up thesewalls and barriers and draw
these really clear dividinglines between my tribe and yours
, change is only going to happenwithin your very small circle
(36:09):
until you're able to truly speak, to connect with care for
people who are beyond thatcircle.
April Snow (36:16):
Like you said, those one-to-one connections, those
relationships are so importantand thinking about how are you
coming into relationship?
Are you coming in angry andburnt out and tired and
resentful?
Are you coming in rested andresourced so you can have open
conversations and make apositive impact?
It's really important.
Yeah Well, Dorcas, thank you somuch for this conversation.
(36:38):
Before we start to wrap up, Ijust want to see if there's any
final message that you'd like toshare with the HSPs listening
who are wanting to step moreinto these six roles or beyond
doing social justice work.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (36:52):
Yeah, I think.
One other point I bring up isit's okay to experiment.
I had this strange idea in myteens and 20s that I had to know
exactly who I was and what Iwas called to do and what job
description perfectly fit that.
(37:13):
All kinds of things, verydifferent jobs in different
sectors, addressing differentcauses and I have come to
recognize that that's just partof the journey.
Is that it's okay to sort ofdip your toe in and like I don't
know if this organization orthis cause is for me.
Maybe I'll just volunteer for acouple hours, maybe I'll just
(37:34):
have a conversation with someonewho's done this work before,
maybe I'll take this job.
But I'm only going to you knowfor sure commit for one year and
then let's see how it goesright, it is okay to experiment,
to try things out, to trythings on and to see how they
fit you and if something doesn'tfit you, then to move on.
But I believe that there is nowasted experience, right, that
(37:57):
anything you try there will besomething really valuable.
You learn, even if it's hard,even if you realize this is not
what I want to do, but everystep that you take moves you a
little bit closer to a betterunderstanding of who you are,
who your best version ofyourself is, what brings you joy
, because I think that also wasreally missing in my work for a
(38:21):
very long time.
I felt like I could only bedoing good work if I was
suffering and miserable, youknow.
And yet I think a huge part ofthat answer to what
sustainability looks like is joy.
Huge part of that answer towhat sustainability looks like
is joy.
What does it look like to findjoy in the midst of the hard
(38:42):
work?
It is absolutely hard work, butthere should be something in
there that kind of just makesyour soul sing, and I think that
that is what will help youcontinue to have hope, continue
to move forward and continue todo the work, even when it can be
discouraging, even when we takesteps backward.
So to give yourself a lot ofpermission to be creative, to
(39:05):
try things out, to not feel likeyou have to do it the way that
that other person is doing it,because we need you just the way
you are and the particularpersonality you have, the
particular gifts, passions andinterests you bring.
That's who the world needs, andso I really do hope.
It is my greatest hope and I'mvery much still on this journey,
(39:26):
but it's my greatest hope forfellow HSPs and empaths to
really embrace that, torecognize like, hey, this is me
and who I am is exactly who theworld needs.
Just need to find those spaceshere and there where I can go
and where I can shine for thebenefit of others.
April Snow (39:46):
I love it so much Just permission to be yourself,
and that there can be room toexperiment and try things on and
figure it out along the way.
I know we tend to want to waituntil we're absolutely ready and
it's perfect, but we can figureit out on the journey.
I love this concept of joy andI'll ask you one last question
(40:09):
before we go is could you giveme an example, maybe from your
own experience or somethingyou've seen?
What does that look like?
Well, where could joy come fromin activist work?
Because it does seem so heavyall the time, and I just love
hearing this.
I'm wondering if you couldshare a little example.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (40:26):
Yeah, Well, I think you probably need joy
from a few different sourcesbecause of the heaviness of the
work.
I do think that there issomething in us that when we are
doing something that just fitsexactly who we are right.
So I am a creative person.
I mean, certainly I lovewriting and I love other forms
(40:49):
of art.
But if I can find any sort ofcreativity within a role that
I'm doing right Like maybe I amdeveloping a new marketing
campaign, maybe I am building upa new program I just I recently
started teaching and I wasbuilding a new class and a new
curriculum from scratch and thatcreativity it just felt like I
(41:12):
was coming alive, being able toexpress my creativity in that
way right.
So part of it is this questionof is this work truly a fit for
who you are, what you're giftedat, what you just really enjoy,
what you really enjoy doingright?
And I think that's somethingreally important to know and
something really important toprioritize and to chase after.
(41:34):
It is absolutely worth it to bein a job or volunteer position
where it's something that youreally just enjoy doing.
And then, secondly, I would saythat the joy certainly comes in
relationships, and those aroundus in community Cried a lot in
the jobs that I've had and Ihave laughed uncontrollably with
(41:55):
people that I work with, withhad, and I have laughed
uncontrollably, you know, withpeople that I work with, with
clients, and I think that we allneed that right To just
remember the sort of ridiculousthings in life.
Humans are really funny, and socan we find the humor in what is
happening around us, and Ithink that is so good, so good
(42:17):
for us, for our souls, for oneanother, and I think at least
for me.
You know I'm also an introvert,and so joy for me does come in
those times of retreat andwithdrawal and rest, where I get
to do things that I really love, you know, going out in nature
and painting and writing andwatching great movies and
(42:41):
binging on.
April Snow (42:42):
Netflix occasionally .
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (42:43):
That's okay, but those, yeah, I think
finding those little pockets ofjoy, ideally, you know, at least
every day.
It's like that fuel that justkeeps going, keeps us
remembering who we are, what webring to the world, and it is
ultimately going to keep ushealthier and more grounded and
(43:05):
allow us to have a moresignificant impact in whatever
we do.
April Snow (43:09):
So we can laugh, we can be joyful, we can rest, we
can take breaks.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (43:14):
Yes.
April Snow (43:14):
Yes, thank you so much for that.
I will make sure I share yourbooks, your website, your social
media in the show notes forfolks so they can dive in and
deepen into this conversationfor themselves.
So thank you so much, dorcas.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun (43:28):
Of course, thanks for having me, april.
I really enjoyed this Thank you.
April Snow (43:39):
Thanks so much for joining me and Dorcas for
today's conversation.
What I hope you'll remember isthat you don't have to do it all
by yourself, and you don't haveto do it all today, whether
that's taking care of your workand family or fighting social
justice causes.
For more guidance insustainably supporting your
community and getting involvedin social justice work, pick up
(44:02):
Dorkus' book Social Justice forthe Sensitive Soul.
You'll find the link in theshow notes.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSP resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
(44:25):
Strengths on Instagram, tiktokand YouTube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
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