49: Tidying Up + Letting Go of Overwhelm

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy (00:00):
we don't realize, but it's the little,
tiny changes that can make sucha profound impact on our life.
Right, but we have to createthat foundation first.
So we've been talking about thephysiological impact that
clutter has as well, and it'salso a way to create new mental

(00:26):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories,the podcast for the people who
live with hearts and eyes wideopen.

April Snow (00:33):
I'm your host, psychotherapist and author,
april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withRebecca Jorusty about the

(00:54):
emotional and physical impactsof tidying up and decluttering
for sensitive people, whathappens when you live more
intentionally and meaningfullyin your home life and
relationships, and the power ofmaking little changes.
Rebecca guides sensitive soulson transformational journeys by
decluttering their homes, heartsand minds into sanctuaries that

(01:16):
spark joy and flow.
Rebecca also facilitateswellness workshops and speaks
for corporations, governmentagencies and NGOs on the power
of decluttering our personal andprofessional lives so that we
can be more focused, effectiveand happy in whatever we do.
Rebecca has lived and workedall over the world.
She was the first platinumKonMari consultant in Malaysia

(01:38):
and Scotland, where she'scurrently based with her husband
and two wonderfully sensitivedaughters.
For more HSP resources and tosee behind-the-scenes video from
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.

(01:59):
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in.
Welcome, rebecca.

(02:28):
I'm so happy to have you on thepodcast today.
Thank you so much, april.
I am so delighted.
And thank you so much forresponding to my request as well
.
Absolutely as soon as it camethrough, I was like absolutely
yes, we have to talk aboutdecluttering, as HSP is so
important and I'm excited todive into some of the layers.

(02:51):
But before we do that, I alwayslike to start off with hearing
what your HSP discovery story is, how or when you realize that
you're highly sensitive.

Yeah, I mean when I discovered that I was an
HSP, I would say it was onlyjust a couple years ago.
Like that this terminology justcame of years ago.
Like that this terminology justcame into my world.
You know Dr Elaine Aaron's workas well.
But I've always known that Iwas sensitive, but not in a way
that was empowering.
You know, as a child I wasalways told that you're too
sensitive, you can't take a joke, you know, you cry too much.

(03:19):
All the things that were like,okay, I just have to like shove
it under.
And I ended up using mystrengths and my superpower as a
way to disempower myself, likebeing able to read the rooms,
especially as a young child.
But then it was more developedas the fear-based
people-pleasing tendencies.

(03:40):
I'm sure that comes up a lot inyour work.

April Snow (03:44):
Absolutely it does.
Yeah, and a lot of what you'resaying resonates, you know, this
feeling of I knew I wassensitive, but it definitely
wasn't a positive and needing towork through that.

Yeah, feeling like I'm never enough, right?
So for me, this actually weavesin really nicely with what
we're talking about today,because I lived in mega cities
my entire life, which meant thatI was basically living in a
giant shopping mall, and so Istarted.
My coping mechanism wasshopping.

(04:17):
I was consuming to try to filla void of not feeling enough,
and I started independentlyshopping since I was eight years
old.
Oh, you would shop on your own,that young yeah, because, you
know, I lived in cities where wehad a lot of freedom.
It was like very safe as well,but it meant that, like you know
, you're at a bus stop and thenthere's also like tons of shops
next to you.
So it wasn't just waiting forthe bus, I was like, oh, you're

(04:38):
always constantly shopping, youwere exposed to it and it's just
also the bombardment ofadvertisement, right, and as a
child I was left to my owndevices a lot.
So back then, nowadays it wouldbe smartphones, right, like
devices, literal devices, butback then it was magazines, you

(04:58):
know.
So I was exposed to a lot ofmagazines and so I didn't get
the best, I wasn't directed inthe best way possible with the
best influences.
So in my mind, I was bombardedwith the media's notion of like,
oh, you will be happy if youhave X, y and Z or if you follow
these trends.
So I just kept shopping andshopping and shopping.

(05:18):
So.
But, having said that, I grew upin a very tidy household
because both my parents have alot of Japanese influences
behind them.
So it wasn't that it wascluttered, but my internal world
was very cluttered, and itwasn't until I read Marie
Kondo's book that I realized Iwas like, oh, I've been tidying

(05:39):
wrong my entire life, my entirelife.
So this is why and I'm a reformshopaholic now so if this
resonates with any audiencemembers with, like you know,
stress, shopping, being in debt,all that kind of stuff, then
I'm really excited to like divein further on that too.
So that's my HSP story.
I realized that a couple ofyears ago that is actually a

(06:01):
strength, and I actually havetwo HSP daughters who are eight
and 10 years old.
So this has been a tremendouspart of my healing journey,
because I realized I can repairmyself by giving them the tools
that I wish I had growing up, sothat they're also able to
recognize that a sensitivity isa strength.

(06:23):
You can take ownership of whatjoy means to you.
You don't have to follow thecrowds or the masses, and a huge
part of that learning isactually they've been kumari.
They've been doing thisdecluttering method since they
were two years old.

April Snow (06:38):
Wow, so you started them off early.
I love that.

Guinea pigs April.
Let's see if this works on themtoo.
But it's been magnificent, andthis is also why I've also
evolved my business.
I think I'm actually on myfive-year anniversary of being
certified as a consultant, sowhat that means is I'm certified
under Marie Kondo's method.
I read her book over a decadeago and then actually dived into

(07:04):
this work about five years agoand, yeah, over the last couple
years I realized I was like youknow again, removing that fear,
like this whole process is notabout just decluttering or
physical, but it's also aboutletting go in a healthy way, of
thoughts and beliefs that don'tserve us.
So a couple years ago I decidedI was like you know, I think'm
going to have that courage toshift and serve who sparks the

(07:28):
most joy for me, which is theHSP community.

April Snow (07:32):
Yes, I love that you're giving back because just
your experience of you grew upin a tidy home, you said, but
your outside world was not tidy.
There was a lot of stimulationand expectation to fit into the
shopping culture that we all getpulled into right.
But realizing what success lookslike Exactly what success looks

(07:53):
like, right, exactly.
And so you're hinting to methat there's decluttering
possible on so many differentlevels.
And so I saw on your websiteyou talk about the impacts
physically, emotionally,spiritually, even around working
or living in clutter.
So I wonder if you could speakmore to that, because that was
really intriguing to me, becauseI'm someone who's very impacted

(08:16):
by clutter.
I need a clean space and I loveto tidy and I love to get rid
of things, because for me it'smental, like peace of mind or
mental clarity when I'mdecluttering.
So I'm curious about thoseother layers, if you could speak
to it.

You know, like just on a practical note,
what happens to usphysiologically when we look at
clutter is it will activate yourcortisol levels.
So I didn't know that a lot ofpeople don't know this and, like
I, actually do a lot ofworkshops, like corporate
workshops as well, and there's alot of stressors in life, right
, like, as you know, as we allknow, you can't control the

(08:52):
traffic, you can't control whatemails are going to come through
in your inbox.
But I want to say, like this issomething that is within our
power Having a space thatsupports us, that that can
nourish us, that can charge usup so that we can face whatever
that's going to come our way andalso I like to compare it to.

(09:14):
You know we're so mindful tocharge all of our devices, you
know just so.
Think of your home as yourcharging port.
So that's where your bedroom Iknow that you have a lot of
sleep resources on your websiteas well your bedroom is a
sanctuary.
Your bedroom charges you up, soit's like there's sleep and
there's good sleep.
So I'm actually pretty obsessedwith sleep hygiene as well.

(09:36):
So this is like all part of it.
Like I always say to people inmy workshop, I'm like you know,
if you're not ready to declutter, the one tip that I will give
you is it takes 10 seconds to doand you will gain back so much
energy.
Take your charger out of thebedroom.
If you have one in there, takethe device right, because I find

(09:57):
that this is actually a pivotalpart of the equation.
I meet so many people who wantto.
They have the desire to, youknow, to declutter or get on
track with their health, fitness, whatever it is.
But what's holding them back?
They're like got no time, gotno energy.
I'm like you know, this 10second hack is going to change

(10:19):
your life.
You're going to be able toexpand your energy field,
because this is the issue.
It's too tempting right now.
The last thing that you see,the blue light're going to be
able to expand your energy field.
Because this is the issue.
It's too tempting right now.
The last thing that you see,the blue light's going to impact
our sleep.
That's the first thing that yousee, right.

April Snow (10:33):
Yeah, I'm just thinking about that.
We've talked so much aboutphysical clutter, but we're
welcoming in so much mentalclutter with our phones, our
devices.

Yes, yeah, you have to be able to put those
boundaries in place because youknow, let's face it, it is a
Pandora's box, right?
It's so tempting I mean, we'veall been there, we've all felt
the flex in the pool, right?
It's like, you know, those dayswhen, like you're trying to,
somehow, you're trying to surfthe entire internet in one
sitting yes, take it all in.

(11:07):
Yeah, so, and this is alsowhere, like you know, it becomes
a way to short circuit.
So I actually most of my workis primarily online, yeah, and I
actually do get veryoverstimulated from screen time.
I wonder if it's the same foryou absolutely I.

April Snow (11:17):
When I'm not working , I've developed a bit of an
aversion to being on the screenbecause there's too much of it,
or there's enough of it duringthe workday.

Yeah, and it's like being able to.
It's not about eliminating.
Like you know, james Clear saysthis really beautiful it's when
you're trying to lessen a habitas well, like lessen the
control of a habit that there is.
It's really about replacing it.
So, rather than saying, oh, I'mnot allowed to do this, it's
like, okay, I'm going to replacethis with this, right.

(11:48):
So it's like, okay, you have nophone in your bedroom.
It's like replacing it with abook that you want to read, or
like a magazine.
And if it's a lighting issue,then get a lamp.
That's going to right.
Or an alarm clock Right,exactly Like that's a, that's a
big one that a lot of people saythey're like oh, but what about
my alarm?

April Snow (12:03):
clock is that okay then.

Oh, like I, I do recommend those sun sunrise
alarm clocks that's what I have.
Yeah, it's so, gentle so gentleand if you are an hsp like, it's
just such a gentle way to wakeup too.
So like little hacks like that,like we don't realize, but it's
the little tiny changes thatcan make such a profound impact
on our life, right, but we kindof have to create that

(12:25):
foundation first.
So we've been talking about,like the physical you know, the
physiological impact thatclutter has as well and it's
also a way to create new mentalspace and clarity.

April Snow (12:37):
Yes, yes absolutely, because we're taking something
out, space can actually come infor once.

Yeah, and if people are are, you know,
interested in like manifestationall that?
Then it's actually a way towelcome in new opportunities and
to be able to align yourself.
So there is a reason why.
So I don't know if you'refamiliar, but maricondo's book
is actually called thelife-changing magic of tidying
up, and it's sold over 4 millioncopies maybe it's even more now

(13:04):
translated into over 40languages too.
The title is bold, right likethe life-changing magic of
lighting up.
That's very bold yeah well, butwhy this happens is because, you
know, people go through extremetransformations.
Even for my family, like youknow, I told you we grew, I grew
up in mega cities.

(13:24):
I was under the conditioningthat I was like, okay, this is
how I should raise my children,just kind of going with, like
okay, just plodding along andthen after I've done my hiding
festival so that's also anothercute terminology Like, instead
of saying, oh, it's decluttering, because oftentimes that has a
negative connotation to it,maric connotation to it.
Marukondo actually calls it atidying festival.

April Snow (13:43):
So when you hire home.

the first foundation that you lay down is
called the tidying festival.
It's actually a directtranslation from Japanese, which
is katatsuke matsuri, so it'sliterally just me tidying
festival.
So it's something we want tolook forward to, right.
And then, when we completed ourtidying festival I think it was
about a year later I finallyhad that courage to like face

(14:11):
this question that my husbandhad been posing for some time,
like he wasn't happy where we'reliving.
But I was just kind of likeblinders on, don't want to think
about it.
And it finally gave me thecourage that like no, this is
not my ideal life, this is notmy ideal family life either.
And so we actually co-married.
We let go of the city thatwe're living in and we took a
family gap year.
For an entire year we did slowtravel and our kids were gosh

(14:34):
they were not even three and oneat that time.

April Snow (14:40):
Wow, this is amazing .
I mean, your family is kind ofjust really blossoming at that
point and you're like, no, weneed to change.
And I love this letting go on abigger scale.
It's like expanding a couple ofthings here, and I also love
the tidying festival and thatit's something to look forward
to, it's a celebration, not achore, and that we can apply it

(15:03):
to every part of our lives andwe were talking privately about.
You could even declutter yourrelationships, not just your
home or your other parts of yourlife, but this can touch
everything.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And, like you know, that's thebigger stuff in life, right?
And I find that, like, even ifyou, you know, in all spiritual
teachings, and even if you arenot spiritual too, everyone's
always talking about letting go.
Right, Let go of the limitingbeliefs, let go of that
relationship, a toxicrelationship, and whatnot, and
I'm like you know, but that'sdiving into the deep end.

(15:35):
We're not taught how to let goas a society.
If anything, we're taught tohold and accumulate and get more
.
I mean, just look at the stateof the world, right.

April Snow (15:47):
Right, exactly.

And we're not taught, and so this is actually
like I always pose, as, likeyou know, our home is a training
ground.
Like this decluttering methodis a way to learn how to let go
in a healthy way.
So we start with gentle.
That's why I'm like you know,this method is so perfect for
hsps.
Yeah, because with, like youknow, the things that we have in

(16:09):
our own home, it might feelreally basic.
Does it spark joy?
Does this bring me purpose?
Right, but before you practiceit, it's like a muscle by the
time you get to those intangible, really challenging, you know,
energetically charged items.
It is a mindfulness practice aswell, so you're able to sit
still with what's coming up inyour body and then let it go

(16:34):
with gratitude.
So gratitude is a is a hugecomponent, and it's also why
it's so different fromtraditional organizing.
So I have to you actually haveto be grateful for the things
that you are letting go.
That's the healthy letting go.
If you let go with shame,regrets, anger, you're actually
still storing those emotionsinside of your body.

April Snow (16:56):
That makes a lot of sense, because these objects do
represent different emotions ormemories and if you don't get
closure with the items just likeif you don't get closure with
the items, just like if youdon't get closure with a
relationship the door is openand you're still holding that.
That makes a lot of sense andthere's like this building up
we're starting step one insteadof trying to jump to step 10 uh,

(17:18):
yeah, and it can be, like youknow, it's almost like we can
ritualize as well, because it'salso tangible, right?

so let's say, like this mug is from a
relationship that was no longerin my life.
You know, for you you might belike oh, that's a cute mug, but
for me, like you know, there's alot of shame around it and then
so, instead of just chucking itlike, oh, screw that person,
you know like they treated meterribly it might actually just
look like it takes time, liketake as much time as you want,

(17:47):
because everyone's going to havethat different emotional
readiness.
You might not be ready to letit go.
That's also okay too.
So it's really tapping intowhere you are at in your journey
and it's like okay, what hasthis person taught me?
You know it's like thank you somuch.
You've now taught me what kindof people that want to be
surrounded by.

April Snow (18:09):
Right.
I mean, what a beautifulhealing process, and just
especially for HSPs, because wedo place a lot of symbolism and
meaning on objects and thingsthat represent our experiences.
So to know, like I have thismug and this mug actually is
very special to me that I havehere but let's say, something
changed.
I could take my time, I couldremind myself what it taught me
and then I let it go, and I'mletting it go like clear.

(18:30):
Yes, how beautiful.

And it could even be something really
practical right Like it might belike oh, I wasn't supposed to
put that into the dishwasher.

April Snow (18:40):
Right.

So when we go through that, it's almost like
you when we have these mindfulpauses to reflect.
So I like to frame it.
As we reflect, we reframe andthen we release it.
So when we reflect on it, thenwe can reframe it and then we
can release it, right.
So, even something like that,let's say that these don't
function well, for example right, I'll give you a good example.

(19:04):
It's like, let's say that, like, these work really well, like I
have very small ears, so Iactually use children's earbuds,
like and.
So when you hold it, you're likeoh, it sparks a lot of joy.
Just like your mug, it holdsspecial meaning.
So, actually, as HSPs, when weare surrounding ourselves with
these conscious choices of whatyou have decided to bring into

(19:24):
your home or allow into yourhome, it will energize you.
So the same goes with, like youknow how I said earlier about
just seeing clutter will raiseyour cortisol levels, but at the
same time, it's like whenyou're in a calm space, right,
just like looking at yourbackground behind you, your
selfie is beautiful.
So then it's like oh, thatfeels really good on the nervous

(19:46):
system.
So it will actually calm yournervous system too.
This is also why before andafter pictures go viral on
social media.
There's a reason why these kindof cleaning content, these
hiding content, go viral becauseit actually is soothing the
nervous system.

April Snow (20:05):
That makes sense because whenever I see those I
feel so deeply satisfied andlike a sense of relief.
And I don't even know theperson or the space, but I still
feel the benefit.

And I mean also because we're HSP, so we
feel it on the neck on anotherlevel.
But yeah, it's just about youknow, it's because I also want
to just share with the audienceas well.
This isn't about minimalism,like a lot of times this is like
quite a big myth, because MarieKondo, her aesthetic, is very
minimalist, so people have thisidea that like, oh, I have to

(20:37):
get rid of everything I know.
Actually, the method is allabout what do you want to keep
in your life?
So this is all.
There's a lot of positivepsychology infused in the two.
So, yeah, for folks who are notfamiliar, I can give like a
brief overview.
That would be great.
Yeah, so the Kulmari method.
We actually have five rules,right, wait, six rules.

(20:58):
So the first one is to commityourself to tidying up, because
without commitment we're notgoing to get very far, as we all
know, with anything in life.
Right, like, you can just havewishful thinking, but so we've
got to commit ourselves.
Number two is imagining yourideal lifestyle.
So this one I found really,really tricky.
When I first read the book, Iwas like, what is this Like?

(21:19):
And I realized now, like now Ican share, after having over a
decade of experience too, it'slike I wasn't giving myself that
permission to dream, yes, andso whenever we go through the
ideal lifestyle and this canlook different for people, right
, like, whether you're, ifyou're into journaling there's

(21:40):
journaling prompts Like, Iactually have journaling prompts
as well of, like what kind ofpeople do you want to be
surrounded by?
How do you want their space tofeel?
Where are you?
How do you want to feel aboutyourself?
Like just those kinds ofquestions.
If people are more visual, youcan totally make a vision board
that's very popular too or evena Pinterest board board if you

(22:01):
want to do it in digital way.
So it's just a way like, andthe big tip I have for everyone
is, if you are doing this, justallow yourself to feel relaxed
and don't be held back bybarriers such as money, time
commitments.
Just park those by the door andjust allow yourself to to dream
big, and it's going to lookdifferent for everyone.
Some people might be like hey,my ideal life is to have a

(22:22):
beachfront property Great,there's.
Some people are going to belike I'm really happy in my home
, I just want to start my dayoff with a calm cup of coffee,
and that's also wonderful too.
So the method is really likethis there's no judgment as well
, because it's about what youdefine as joy, right?
So then the other rules aremore technical.

(22:42):
So we go by category, not roomby room, right, but this is
quite different from likenormally people do.
That I'm going to do my garage,I'm going to do my kitchen.
So the categories in the Komarimethod is the first one is
clothing.
Second is books, third is paper.
Fourth is called kimono, whichis miscellaneous in Japanese.

(23:06):
So that means everything elseunder the sun, like the garage
items, seasonal items, hobbyitems, toiletries, medication.
So everything that's notclothing, books or paper fall
under category number four, andthen the last one is sentimental

(23:29):
items.
So we go through the sequencebecause we're actually building
the muscle, so clothing istypically the easiest.
Okay, I also have anothertheory.
It's like because you know theum, your skin is your largest
organ, so you get to takeownership of what you want to
put on your body.

April Snow (23:44):
That's powerful.

It is for HSPs especially right.

April Snow (23:48):
Yes.

And then so when you go through that because
it's like you know, I also Iused to question myself a lot.
I used to not trust my gut andmy intuition, to always kind of
handing the power over to others, even things like, oh, where do
you want to eat?
It's like, oh, wherever youwant to eat right.
Like those kinds of things.
So it's like when you start topractice, okay, what is my full

(24:11):
body?
Yes, what do I want to wear?
Who am I now and who am Ibecoming?
And it's represented by youknow.
Just, it seems very basic, butit's quite symbolic.

April Snow (24:24):
Oh, it feels so deep , and I can understand why HSPs
might struggle with not only thedream, the step number two, but
also then how do I want to feel?
What do I want to represent?
What do I want to put on mybody?
We're so.
We're often giving thosechoices over to someone else or
being influenced.
So what powerful kind ofreclaiming of our voices through

(24:48):
this process.

There's a lot of body shaming, I mean, and
then it comes through so manysources, right, we're surrounded
by it too, so it really goesback to like I mean sometimes
some of the work, because itdepends for me like it differs
from person to person, butespecially when it comes around
body like what weights, weightyo-yoing, fluctuating as well we
do a lot of the reframing workaround.

(25:10):
That too will be about.
You know, you're not defined bythe label, right, like I want
to just be.
You know, I want to be thefittest, healthiest version of
myself, versus I need to fitinto and then this, this size,
right?
exactly um, so it takes you'reable to step back into your
power.
So we also have another rule,which is you cannot buy any

(25:34):
decluttering organizing toolsuntil after declutter first and
then buy organizing solutions.

April Snow (25:40):
What was that?
Could you give some examples ofwhat that might be?
Yeah, so.

I always like to encourage people to just
shop from your own home.
Anything can be repurposed asan organizing tool, Like even
get a tissue box, cardboardtissue box, cut off the top and
then that becomes a separator aswell.
So I'm a big advocate of wehave more than enough.
It actually always proves thatlike we have more than a shoe
box is great as well.
So I'm a big advocate of wehave more than enough.
It actually always proves thatlike we have more than a shoe
box is great as well.

(26:04):
If you want to upgrade later,than do so.
But what this actually helps tofacilitate is mindful,
intentional shopping.
So when you're, you knowexactly what you need to buy.
So, for example, I work with aclient on her kitchen before if
we had gone the route ofmeasuring everything, everything
has to have, like those matchymatchy boxes and don't get me
wrong, I love a good matchymatchy box but like if we had

(26:26):
gone down that route, we wouldhave bought dozens.
You know like, oh, yeah, Right,just to fit it.
But we followed a rule.
So at the end all we needed tobuy were two boxes.

April Snow (26:38):
Isn't that amazing?
Because I've seen some of thesekind of organizing shows or on
social media and there's so manythings that are bought and
sometimes you need that.
But I love what you're saying,which is you can use what's
already in your home, which onebrings more intention but also
creates more accessibility forfolks who can't go out and buy
all the things.
And also, things change as youpare down.

Yeah, so in my own home, even though I do
this as a profession, I have ablend.
I have a mix of repurposed andsome bought containers, and
that's okay.
I think this is also where Iwant people to also let go of
Pinterest Perfect.

April Snow (27:17):
Ooh.

Yeah, and because it doesn't bring the joy
right, like I think theintention behind it is really
about a space that serves youversus.
I'm doing it for validation.

April Snow (27:30):
Right For the image.

For the image .
Like I mean, of course, likedon't get me wrong Like, if
aesthetics is your thing and itbrings you a lot of joy, go for
it.
But it's always going back tolike and I use this example a
lot too even with like luxurygoods, right, are you buying it
because you really appreciatethe craftsmanship and the
quality, something that you wantto be able to pass down, et
cetera, or are you doing itbecause you feel like you need

(27:54):
to look a certain way?

April Snow (27:56):
Right, exactly.
Where is that urge coming from?
Is it internal or external?

Yeah, so when we're able to kind of
differentiate between that aswell.
You know, cause I used to havea lot of purses and handbags and
I realized I was like actuallyno, I don't want to have that
maintenance, especially with,like the guys that can get moldy
.
I was living in the tropicsbefore.
I'm currently based in Scotland, but I was living in this
tropics before this, so you know, even just the maintenance as
well you have to like.

(28:22):
There's a thing, there's thingscalled such as bag spas as well
.
Oh, bag spas yeah, what is that?
It's like dry cleaning forpurses.

April Snow (28:32):
Got it.
I'm not a purse person, so Ihave no idea.

I changed.
I'm like I'm a I'm a canvastote bag girl now and that's me,
yeah, like I'm like just sohappy with that and there's it,
you get to just own it yeah,exactly, I mean just be who you
are or use what works for you inyour everyday life yeah and
that's so like, yeah, and thenso the rules okay, we've covered
some of them and then so wehave to do it in the right
sequence as well.

(29:02):
So the categories why we do itis because you know you, more
often than not this is one ofthe mistakes I often see people
are like I'm gonna do my garage,I'm gonna do my kitchen, but
that is a kimono category.
Category number four that's thehigh intensity zone already.
So if you have never done aHIIT workout and you just go in

(29:22):
like imagine what's going tohappen, right, not good, yeah,
you're not going to be happy.
And then so it's sooverstimulating, it's so
overwhelming because it's one ofthose.
Your kitchen especially it is amy friend and I we call it the
sexy category.
You know, like and kitchen arethe sexy categories because it's
the one where you actually feelthis.

(29:43):
It's such a high traffic zonethat you feel that
transformation and it is a goodone, right, but then it is
intense.
It is intense because you havethis force.
You know you open one area, butthen you're like okay, there's
lots of mini school, littlethings that don't actually
belong in the kitchen.
So it overstimulates us and itwill actually lead to overwhelm.

April Snow (30:06):
Makes sense because if I think about clothing, I'm
focusing on one type of itemversus a kitchen, a garage yes,
they're high impact when they'redone, but you're touching a
million categories in thosespaces and I just think about an
HSP who gets easilyoverstimulated one but also
develops decision fatigue.
You're switching so manydifferent things in your brain

(30:29):
trying to figure out okay, wheredoes this go, when does that go
?
This shouldn't be in thekitchen, this should be.
It's just so much so.
There's so much intentionalityhere in these categories, in the
order, which to me is beautiful, because then I don't have to
figure out how to approach this.

Yes, and I'll also show you as well.
So it's like you know, we alsomake it really gentle too.
So, like how I was saying aboutlike the categories too, right,
there's clothing, there's books, there's paper, kimono, and
then there's one moresentimental.
But if you just go in, even ifyou're like feeling very
overwhelmed, you're like I wantto start, but I feel kind of
overwhelmed because I have a lotof clothes and everyone's going

(31:03):
to look different.
I've worked with people who cando their entire wardrobe in 45
minutes.
I've also worked with peoplewho need it over 20 hours.
Wow, that's a big difference, abig difference.
And this is with somebody bytheir side, right, and there's

(31:27):
going to be people I, you know,because I teach a lot online now
too there's people who havelike a lifetime of belongings,
right, so, because they've never, ever done clutter before.
So if you look at this here,it's divided into subcategories.
Could you?

April Snow (31:32):
say a few, maybe just give a few examples.

So like, for example, your tops, your bottoms
, your dresses, your athleticwear, your shoes, jackets,
winter wear, et cetera.
So this also still follows thephilosophy where we're going by
the subcategory.
I mean we're going by thecategory and the wisdom behind
it is because when you can seeit in its totality, it's easier
to make sound decisions, likeconscious decisions.

(31:57):
So let's say, for example,april, like you're okay, I'm
going to start, let's take outall your shoes, right, but out
from you were not doing a roomby room, so you've got to take
the shoes from every area everyplace.
Get them all together alltogether and then you see it.
So this also creates a visualimpact.
So if anyone has watched theNetflix show before, then you'll

(32:19):
see that there's the infamousmountain of clothing.
Yes, exactly.

April Snow (32:23):
I have watched it and every time there's like a
huge bed full of clothes.
But that's true.
It does leave an impact becauseif you have clothes in your
bedroom, in the guest room, inthe hall closet, you don't get
to take it all in.

No and like so there is that Marikano
basically calls it it's like ashock to your system as well.
So often than not, when you seeit I mean how many of us are
guilty of like standing in frontof a closet and saying I have
nothing to wear, right?

April Snow (32:49):
So when you have that visual impact, you're like
I have more than enough, right,because you're seeing it all
together, not just one sliver,and so the shock is intentional.

Yes, and then it's also either I have more
than enough or I have too much,yes, yes.
So it's not.
You know, we have to have these.
It's almost like theseepiphanies.
It activates us as well.
So this will actually help toshape our future purchasing
behaviors and decisions too.
So this is also how I'm areformed shopaholic, right.

April Snow (33:27):
Yeah, when did that switch happen for you?

If you're open to sharing, yeah, of course
I think it was once, because,when and this is why the method
is so different, because I'vedecluttered my whole life, you
know, like, my mom is likepretty OCD as well, so I didn't
really have that problem ofletting go, but it was more when
you are able to link it back tothe joy and gratitude which is
the key components of theKonMari method, when you are

(33:52):
grateful, when you're content,and that leads to happiness.
So I realized, like you know,just even by holding things like
and I used to not be able toenter a shop without leaving
purchase something I used to buya lot from fast fashion too.
So even when I was holdingthose fast fashion items like
that's really where thereflection comes in I was like,
oh, you know what, like thist-shirt, I only wore it once or

(34:13):
twice and then the shape is wornout, you know.
So, instead of just talking itlike how I normally would have,
it was just kind of like youknow what?
I don't want to supportsweatshop labor.
I want to be able to support,like I want to purchase quality
over quantity.

April Snow (34:30):
Yes, exactly, it really wakes you up.

Yeah, and it puts the because it's coming
from a place of empowerment.
No one's forcing you.
So I like to give a lot ofthese like crash diet analogies
as well, because you know it'scoming from a place of
empowerment, no one's forcingyou.
So I I like to give a lot ofthese like crash diet analogies
as well, because you know it'slike, when you feel like force,
when you're doing it from aplace of fear and not good
enough, etc.
The rebound is bound to happen.
But when you're doing this placeof embodiment, it's coming from

(34:54):
a place of love and gratitudeas well.
That's where the evolution canhappen.
You know we're not doing itfrom this shame-based place,
yeah.
So this is really like it'shappened and I'm like okay, of
course, like sometimes you mightstill have those buyer's
remorse or whatever happens, butit's more like you're able to

(35:14):
kind of be like okay, like thishappened.
But instead of dwelling on it,ruminating on it, it's like okay
, what can I do better?
What am I taking away from it?
So this goes back into thewhole letting go with gratitude
component.
Yeah, and I think it's reallypowerful as HSPs too, because we
tend to ruminate.
I still, I'm human, you knowlike but yeah, we're able to

(35:37):
bounce out of it from a moreempowering place yeah, it feels
so empowering to feel like youhave a sense of control and
connection to your choices.

April Snow (35:45):
You're not maybe mindlessly buying things or
making decisions withoutthinking well, what's the impact
, what's my value here?

yeah, and I also just want to share as well,
know, because we've talkedabout how the seeing the clutter
increases the cortisol levelstoo.
So, like one of the patternsthat I've seen a lot.
This is why I bring up aboutthe digital devices, right,
because that actually becomes anenergy drainer in our lives.
But another pattern that I'veseen and especially having the

(36:15):
privilege of going to people'shomes is that you know, let's
say that you have a verystressful job, your home is
cluttered, you come home after along day and then it's like
another hit on your nervoussystem and actually it will
activate coping mechanisms.
There's research done on thiswhere it will activate coping
mechanisms such as binge eating,binge watching and mindless

(36:38):
scrolling.
So then what happens is itbecomes like this really vicious
cycle because you might be.
If you're mindlessly shopping,that means more stuff's coming
into your house.
You might be going into debt.
There's a lot more shame goingin.
Your sleep is impacted.
Your diet is impacted, right.

April Snow (36:57):
Right.
Everything is connected.
You're just kind of feedingthis cycle of shame.

Yes, that's why I was like.
You know, right off the bat.
I'm like get the charger,create a charging station.

April Snow (37:09):
Yes, like a landing spot for your phone.

Like get used to it.
It took me a while to get usedto it.
I started this like mytherapist taught us this, like
about gosh, like I want to sayyeah, over a decade ago now, and
it was slow going at first, Istill felt myself like my
husband has a joke, like in thebeginning, literally, he was
like I know where to find you.
You'll be at the chargingstation.
So we started off kind ofgently as well, like I was like

(37:34):
okay, put, the charging stationwas in the kitchen.
And then it was like okay,let's set a curfew for the
devices, you know, step by step,because it's not easy, because
it's so pervasive in our lives.

April Snow (37:47):
Yeah, we need to gently step ourselves down, just
like with the decluttering.
You're going to gently goingthrough the process.
You're not doing it all at onceon one day, just one step at a
time and it's really about likeokay, where's your?

you know, we have our comfort zone and then
we're, we have our stretch zoneas well.
So where is your stretch zone?
Because this is also where it'sgoing to look different.
And then, after the stretchzone, is your panic zone right?
So everyone's going to lookdifferent, like.
Some people are going to belike oh okay, great, Like,
listen to this podcast and belike okay, I can do my entire
house.
But some people are going to belike oh okay, great, like,
listen to this podcast and belike okay, I can do my entire

(38:22):
house.
But some people might be likeokay, I need to you know, let
this marinate for a little bitlonger.

April Snow (38:25):
Yeah, exactly, and I love that there's permission
for that.
You don't have to rush through,and I know you offer resources
for folks, which we'll touch onin a bit, but it's just good to
know you can do it all on yourown.
You can reach out for help, youcan take your time with it.
Right, the goal it doesn'tsound like it's not
perfectionism.

No, no, not at all.
Like that's something that wecan let go of.
Yeah, we can let go of that too.
Let go of that too, you know,especially, for I think this is
something that's pretty powerful, especially for anyone who is
living with, like you know,being a perfectionist, and I
think that is a recurring themeas well, especially for HSPs,
especially for women too,because there's so much weight

(39:04):
that's put on us, like we haveso much invisible weight that
we're carrying, not even justfrom what we've been exposed to,
but also from what ourancestors have gone through as
well.

April Snow (39:15):
It's intergenerational, yeah.

Yeah.
So it's like when we're able tosee, like even this scarcity
mindset, it comes out a lot whenwe're doing this decluttering
because you might have beentaught or you might have been.
It's the model from a young agethat maybe it's like parents
who have gone through thedepression or they've lived
through wars.
Of course they've gone throughreally traumatic times, so
they're like, literally, youcan't throw anything away.
Exactly so.

(39:39):
It's a really, really healingprocess.
You're like, okay, thank you somuch, and it goes back to the
gratitude.
It's like thank you foreverything that you have done.
You know, but I now know, rightnow, I don't have to live that
way.

April Snow (39:53):
Not only healing yourself, but you're healing
that lineage, yes.

Especially if you have, if any listeners have
like children as well, it'sreally, really empowering.
I mean, I know that we do livein a time now where it's the
other end of the spectrum, whereit's like one click purchase,
same day delivery.
You know, kids are like where'smy package?

April Snow (40:15):
You know Exactly Like.
They want it instantly.

Yeah, the instant gratification right, so
it's like we need to find thatnice balance as well.
So I love also guiding.
I mean this method is foreveryone.
I've taught everyone from agetwo to 80, because we all need
to be taught how to let go rightand get used to it, because
it's actually it's a basic lifeskill that we're never taught.

April Snow (40:37):
It's true.
I wonder if you could sharejust briefly how your kids have
responded to this whole process.

It's interesting.
So, like for my eldest, she'sreally taken to it.
She's 10, going on, 11 now, andit's so cute because I teach it
as a self-soothing,self-regulation tool.
So you know, when we're feelinga little bit overstimulated,
it's like just folding thethings and then, you know,
putting it back or reorganizingthings.
That will actually calm ournervous system.
So I've caught her a few timeswhen she was feeling like, you

(41:06):
know, worked up, going andreorganizing her drawers as well
.
It's the cutest.
And even for my youngest she'smore attached to things.
But I've seen, because it'sthrough the practice, right,
she's less and less attached,right, and then it's also helps
because they are able to.
You know we're all going tohave big emotions, but then

(41:26):
we're able to bounce back a lotquicker, but then we're able to
bounce back a lot quicker.

April Snow (41:34):
I mean, what a beautiful way to learn to
regulate because it's tactile,you're putting your focus on
something that you can solve, sothere's a sense of control
there, yeah, and it's soregulating, just having that
process.
And that's exactly what I dowhen I'm feeling stressed, like
I want to organize something, Iwant to clean something up, it
works.

It's so helpful.
This is also a really great tipfor HSPs.
I tell this to everyone becauseI were, and we both work
primarily you know, on onlineright and it's our lives but we
can actually empower ourselves.
So when the house is like set upwith systems too, it just
becomes it's so easy to reset.
Like my house is not perfectall the time.
I have two young kids, but thetwo is we can reset it, I can go

(42:16):
around, but it's like I canpick things up from around the
house, like I'm just picking upthings, right, but what happens
is that because I know exactlywhere things go, you can
actually activate your flowstate of mind.
It's like like okay, this goesinto the kitchen sink, this goes
into my backpack, this goesinto my little work caddy so
there's a sense of movementthere and ease yes and then

(42:40):
we're also breaking free fromthe screen time as well.
Or you can even just be like oh,I'm just gonna wash the dishes
right now.
You know, I'm a cancerian soI'm a water science.
I really love like water reallysoothes me and like calms me as
well.
So it's just like oh, okay, I'mjust doing the dishes during a
putting away that kind of thing,right, so we can use our house
as a self soothing and selfregulation tool.

April Snow (43:01):
I love that so much we're just taking that in.

We can use our house.
I'm like I really want morepeople to know about this,
because it's like, don't get mewrong, it's great to treat
yourself all that kind of stuff,to take a bubble bath, et
cetera.
I'm like, yeah, you know,there's so much beauty and being
able to take care of your homeand to show that gratitude for

(43:25):
it too, and when there aresystems in place that means that
every single person livingunder the same roof can pitch in
it becomes their responsibilitytoo.
So my kids you know it doesn'thappen overnight, obviously,
because there's training,there's obviously like age
appropriate chores, all thatkind of stuff.
But my kids now they can maketheir own breakfast or lunch.
They have their bags packed.

(43:46):
I don't have to go down to thekitchen until 8am so I get to do
my meditation as well.
I get to.
You know I'm an HSP, I'm not amorning person, so I was like I
need to have like slow morningsand there is going to be
bickering in the background.
I get really activated.
But I know like eight out of 10times like they have a handle

(44:07):
on their things.
This is fosters independencetoo, it cultivates confidence
and it means that you investthis time to do this.
You will absolutely gain itback.

April Snow (44:19):
Yeah, you're feeding yourself so much Like you're
regulating, you're empoweringyourself, you're cleaning up
your space.
I mean there's so many goodthings happening, just
ricocheting off each other.

And like.
If the family members ask me,though, like, oh, where's so
many good things happening justricocheting off each other?
And if the family members askme they're like, oh, where's
this?
I can tell them oh, it's here,this drawer, left-hand side, go
get it yourself.
So, as an HSP, our energy isour currency, so you're not
using up precious currency andreserves on trying to find
something, and when you'retrying to find something that
you cannot locate, stresshormones go through the roof.

April Snow (44:52):
So stressful.
And you're right, as much as wecan delegate and empower others
to do for themselves whether itbe children or spouses or
roommates or family that energythat we get back is so precious,
it is so important yeah.

And you can focus on the things that matter
Exactly.

April Snow (45:12):
Exactly.

Some setup.
It means that you can focus oncreating more like.
What do you want to focus on?
Like for us, it's like okay, wewant to be able to spend time
with the kids, be able to youknow, train them, right.
It's like the things that I wassaying.
It's like if the space wasn'tsupporting us, I wouldn't be
able to teach them how to makesome basic items like pancakes,
eggs, all that kind of stuff.
Life skills, exactly, yeah.

(45:42):
So it's also a way to justfocus on like.
Okay, you'll be able to expandyour energy field, and I also
want to.
This is one of the topquestions that I get all the
time, so I kind of want toaddress this as well, because
people are always asking aboutlike, how do I make my X, y, z?
But like, declutter or pick upafter themselves.
So with that, I just want toaddress like.
The KonMari way is that we don'tforce anyone.
We hold space for them, right?
So if they are not ready,that's okay, because when you

(46:06):
start to feel that lightness,that energy change in yourself,
too, people just naturallygravitate towards it, even
animals, obviously.
They're highly sensitive too,right?
It's so funny.
There's been like so manysessions that I've conducted,
where people will be like oh mycat doesn't like people, they're
probably going to clean theother room and they actually
come into the room as we'redecluttering because you feel
the energy shifting too.

(46:26):
But so it does come like.
I hear it so often.
People will be like oh my gosh.
My husband asked me can I foldhis underwear drawer the same
way that I did mine, and it justbecomes like a cute thing
because it comes from a place oflike.
They want to do it, it's notforced.
I mean, of course there aregoing to be people who are
resistant, who are skeptics aswell, and again that goes back

(46:49):
into how we reframe it.
Like my father-in-law he kindof mocks me about this as well
but then instead of like ofcourse it hurt.
As an HSP, you know, I was like, oh, like.
I felt offended by it.
I'm like no, I'm not going to beoffended by it.
Like I honor that feeling, butlet's reframe it.
Instead of saying stuff like,oh, he'll never be able to
kumari, I can say something likeoh, when he's ready, I'm here

(47:11):
for him Right.

April Snow (47:13):
Exactly, we're letting folks see it kind of
vicariously how the energyshifts, how we've maybe changed,
how the spaces function more,and they're like, oh, I want
some of that, but let them getthere on their own time, just
like we're letting ourselves getthere at our own pace,
especially when we're helpingout.

Oh, the biggest tip I would say is also
okay, so do not throw otherpeople's stuff away when you're
going through your journey.
Only focus on your own things.

April Snow (47:39):
That's important, that makes sense.

Yeah, and ask for permission too.
So even with my kids too, andespecially if you have young
kids too, just kind of see wheretheir emotional readiness is,
because they might only haveattention span for 10 minutes
and that's okay.
So what I would recommend forthat is just to say, like, ask
them if you can kind of seetheir attention is going like,
of course I've been there, Iwill feel activated, I'm like,
oh, you're not focused, whatever.

(48:02):
But actually reframe it as okay, I see that you want to play
with that toy.
Like can I make the executivedecision?
Can I make the decisions foryou?
Because the whole process isabout respecting and honoring
their decisions.
Yes, I love that, yes, and thatthis is actually where a lot of
the little t trauma comes in forpeople, why they resist

(48:25):
decluttering because they mighthave come home from school when
they were younger and all oftheir things have been you know,
some of their prizedpossessions might have been
given away absolutely, and whichare so important for kids, and
a lot of times parents do thatbecause it's easier in the
moment, but it does leave animpact.
Then people need to hold on, soit's tighter to their things

(48:48):
right, it's like if you don'tclean up your room, then I'm
going to get a bin bag and throweverything out.
That's so common.
And I'm like, oh no, you know,because when we do it from a
fear-based place, of course weknow that like brute force can
make anyone do anything.
Looking through history, youknow it's like that's not going
to lead to sustainable changeand transformation.

(49:08):
So, yeah, with kids kids tooit's just like hold space and
then it's actually we can alsoreframe it as it's a really
beautiful opportunity to connectand you get to understand those
family members more, like whatlights them up.
So if you have kids, forexample, then it makes it so
much easier to be like oh okay,you know what?

(49:29):
Like I don't have to buy themall these toys anymore, like
they're literally only playingwith lego, for example.
So this helps you to createthese little points of like.

April Snow (49:38):
Oh, you become a more discerning consumer right,
not just for yourself, but forwho you're buying for yeah.

Or they're like oh, when we go to the shops
, definitely they'll be like Iwant want this, I want this.
But instead of saying no, youcan't have it, it's like, okay,
let's have conversations aroundit.
Remember that one that we gotlast time.
It was like, oh, you didn'tplay with it for that long.
Is it going to be similar?
Or oh, you want another stuffedanimal, but oh, you have like
15 already.

April Snow (50:12):
Right, you're really kind of slowing things down for
them and helping them see thebig picture, and it seems like
there's a lot of it aboutconsent, which I really
appreciate.
Right, giving people the spaceto come at it on their own and
intention, which is so importantfor all of us.
But to learn it from a youngage is so important.

So important, especially for HSP kids too.
So, like what this willactually lead to, the more we're
able to.
You know, even if they want tojust keep that really tattered
t-shirt because it reminds themof a really special memory,
allow it, because even if youare like, oh, I really want to
throw that away, that broken toyor whatever, it is Right, just
remember that every round of joychecking.

(50:48):
So joy checking is themaintenance.
So tidying festival is afoundational thing.
But the joy checking can happenperiodically because we
literally grow out of clothesand past versions of ourselves.
So when we go through it, justremember the joy checking can
happen as frequently as you wantit to.
It can even happen just whenyou're getting dressed in the
morning.
You're like, oh, have a quickglance at my t-shirts.

(51:09):
Right, you're already in theremakes sense and it will take no
time because the foundation islaid already.
So when they say, oh, I want tokeep this and stuff like, and
even if you don't want it, whenyou're honoring and respecting
and hearing them and they'rebeing seen as well, what this
will lead to eventually is thatthey will be able to tell you

(51:32):
the bigger things in life,because they know that mom or
dad is not going to judge them.
They feel safe to share withyou.

April Snow (51:41):
Yeah, that's so true and important because you're
right that you're opening upthis dialogue instead of being
the authoritarian yes, and thenthey will feel safer to come
through and share what they'refeeling or needing, because
you've had some practice with italready.

Yeah and like .
Eventually, as they get oldertoo, they realize that through
the letting go practice, theyrealize that it will have been
built within their operatingsystem that they're like okay,
you know what?
Like I can let go of this, knowwhat?
Like I can let go of this toxicfriendship, or I can let go of
this job that isn't serving me.

April Snow (52:14):
Yes, right, it's going to ripple out through
their whole lives.
So I love that we were goingbackwards in time, doing healing
, but then also teaching thisnext generation to treat
themselves differently and havedifferent types of relationships
.
Who knew the power ofdecluttering?
Yeah, of tidying up?
Exactly, rebecca, as we startto wrap up, I'm wondering if

(52:36):
there's one message you want toleave listeners with.

Absolutely.
I think I want people to leavewith that.
Decluttering isn't aboutgetting rid of things.
It's about choosing what trulysupports your well-being.

April Snow (52:52):
I love that.
That's so beautiful and thatyou deserve it.
It's so, so empowering, andI'll definitely be sure to share
the resources.
You mentioned your website,social media.
You also have resources onInsight Timer, so I'll share all
those in the show notes.
But before we go, I'm wonderingif you could tell listeners
about your Circle of Joycommunity.

Absolutely so .
It's a private network, so it'sfor sensitive souls who want to
declutter, and it's a joyfulspace as well, because,
especially what we see nowadays,the internet can be really
swampy.
But I wanted to create a cozycorner on the internet.
We need community right we?
Need to connect.
It's just like how we're havingthese amazing conversations too

(53:34):
, instead of just like oh, justswiping through.

April Snow (53:38):
Yes.

Rolling through.

April Snow (53:40):
Let's land and connect.

Yeah, like, let's actually go beyond, and as
HSPs, we get so tired of thesurface level connections as
well.
So this is also where, like,I've made the conscious choices.
Like I don't really teach onmainstream social media, I'm
still navigating my relationshipwith it.
I'm not sure where I land on ityet, but I was like in the
meantime I have some cozycorners.
I love that, and so I wantpeople to also know that these

(54:06):
are choices that we can make.
It's like how is it impactingyour nervous system?
So, just like how your podcastcreates so much nourishment to
the HSP community as well, Iwant people to recognize that,
like, you can recreate thosevibes right in your own home,
and then that will lead tocurating that coziness that you

(54:27):
desire in your life thatcoziness that you desire in your
life.

April Snow (54:33):
Oh, I love it so much.
We need more of that cozy,curated spaces where we feel
safe and we can start toflourish and be our full selves.
Yeah, thank you for the workthat you're doing.
This has been reallyenlightening for me.
It's taken my love of tidyingup to a new level.

Oh my gosh, april, thank you so much for
geeking out with me, because Icould go on about this for ages,
and thank you to the listenersas well for your time for
listening to this conversation.

April Snow (54:58):
Yeah, thank you.
I'll definitely have to haveyou back on.

Thank you so much, April.

April Snow (55:10):
Thanks so much for joining me and Rebecca for
today's conversation.
What I hope you're taking awayis that, whether you're
decluttering or doing somethingelse, you don't have to do it
all at once and you don't haveto compare yourself to what
others are doing.
Instead, focus on what'smeaningful to you and go at your
own pace.
If you're ready to start yourown tidying festival, sign up

(55:32):
for a free three-month trial ofRebecca's Circle of Joy.
Community Link is in the shownotes.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated for
behind the scenes content andmore hsp resources.

(55:53):
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow sensitive
strengths on instagram, tiktokand youtube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.

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