April 29, 2025 • 45 mins
Does sex feel uncomfortable or overstimulating? In this episode, I talk with Caitlin Weber, LMFT, CST about the barriers to enjoyable sex as a highly sensitive person and:
• How to carve out the time and mental space for sex as an HSP
• Managing the physical discomfort, boredom, and emotional overwhelm that may happen during sex
• What to do when you have a low sex drive
• How to break free from linear models of sex
Caitlin Weber is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Sex Therapist by the American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists. As a cis white queer therapist, Caitlin has a private practice in Whitefish Bay, Wisconsin and online, and she helps individuals and couples meet their mental health, relational and sexual goals. Passion areas for Caitlin include helping clients navigate sexual pain and trauma, sexual orientation and gender identity discovery, perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, infertility trauma, kink, polyamory, and grief. She helps people externalize all of the damaging systems we inherit such as racism, ableism, fat phobia, patriarchy, religious trauma, capitalism, and colonialism so that they can truly thrive and live authentically while accessing pleasure.
Keep in touch with Caitlin:
• Website: http://webertherapy.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/caitlinwebertherapy
Resources Mentioned:
• Come as You Are by Emily Nagoski, PhD: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9781982165314
• Find a Sex Therapist: https://www.aasect.org/referral-directory
• Wicked Sensual Care: https://wickedsensualcare.com
• Good Clean Love Lubricants: https://goodcleanlove.com/collections/personal-lubricants-collection
Thanks for listening! You can read the full show notes and sign up for my email list to get new episode announcements and other resources at:
https://www.sensitivestories.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Caitlin Weber (00:00):
when we demystify sex, when we take it off that
pedestal and bring it into reallife, into the real world, then
we can expect realistic thingsfrom it, just like we expect
realistic things from anythingelse.
April Snow (00:21):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
(00:43):
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withCaitlin Weber about carving out
the mental space for sex as anHSP, what to do when sex is
over-simulating, boring or evenpainful, and how to navigate a
lower sex drive.
Caitlin is a marriage and familytherapist and certified sex
therapist by ASECT, the AmericanAssociation of Sexuality
(01:05):
Educators, counselors andTherapists.
As a cis white queer therapistin Wisconsin, she helps
individuals and couples navigatesexual pain and trauma, sexual
orientation and gender identitydiscovery, perinatal mood and
anxiety disorders, infertilitytrauma, kink, polyamory and
grief.
Caitlin also helps peopleexternalize all of the damaging
(01:28):
systems we inherit, such asracism, ableism, fat phobia,
patriarchy, religious trauma,capitalism and colonialism, so
that they can truly thrive andlive authentically while
accessing pleasure.
For more HSP resources and tosee behind the scenes video from
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
(01:49):
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
treatment with mental health ormedical professional.
Let's dive in, caitlin.
(02:27):
I just want to welcome you tothe podcast.
I'm so happy to chat with youtoday.
Caitlin Weber (02:31):
Thank you so much for having me, of course.
April Snow (02:34):
I'd love to start off with looking at your HSP
discovery story.
If you can remember how or whenyou realized that you're a
highly sensitive person.
Caitlin Weber (02:43):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I mentioned that I'll betalking about this today, but
there's sort of an overlapbetween introversion and HSPs,
which I'm sure that you talkabout quite a lot.
So I figured out I was anintrovert a lot farther back
than I figured out I was an HSP,if you will.
And then also I figured out Iwas an HSP before I figured out
(03:04):
I was neurodivergent.
April Snow (03:06):
It's a process.
Caitlin Weber (03:08):
It's a process and there's so much overlap
right of these sort of threephenomena or diagnoses, or you
know not that HSP is a diagnosis, but so, anyway, I first found
out I was introverted when I wasin college, which was way too
late to find that out, but veryhelpful when I was in college,
which was way too late to findthat out, but very helpful.
And you know, I was talking toactually a career advisor,
(03:33):
because I was trying to figureout if I wanted to teach or if I
wanted to, what on earth Iwanted to do.
And I'll always remember hername was Marie Coco and she was
so nice and she was like you'rean introvert Cause I was really
concerned about having this hugeclassroom of kids in front of
me and being so overstimulated.
If I met with her today, maybeshe'd be like maybe you're
neurodivergent, but back in theday, in the 2010s, when I was no
(03:56):
, I guess this was the 2000s, ohmy God, when I was learning
better, then that was sort ofthe language.
So I figured out that I was veryeasily overstimulated.
I really needed a lot ofdowntime to recharge and I
probably really preferred havingone-on-one conversations rather
than a huge group.
That being said, I do liketeaching, but I like to have it
(04:18):
in controlled environments whereI know what to expect a little
bit and I know that I can say noquestions until this time.
You know like yeah, I'm thesame.
It's to expect a little bit andI know that I can say no
questions until this time.
April Snow (04:25):
You know like yeah, I'm the same.
It's like having a little bitmore predictability instead of
the chaos of a big classroom.
Caitlin Weber (04:33):
Yes, yes, exactly .
Very glad I didn't go intoteaching little kids so.
And then HSP I learned moreabout actually a few years ago
my wife brought it up and she'slike this is actually a thing,
and I was like, oh, that alsofits really well.
April Snow (04:47):
So, yeah, I had the same unfolding.
I was like, oh, I'm introvertedand I was really learning about
that in grad school and I waslike, wait, I'm highly sensitive
.
It's like, oh, there's anotherlayer and then there's other
layers that have unfolded too.
Caitlin Weber (04:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we have so many like I like
to call them sometimes myspecial needs, and that's okay,
like it's okay that we havespecial needs, that we need a
little bit of tender, loving,care and just like being able to
say no to things and being ableto plan meticulously and I'm
definitely not just like a spurof the moment gal usually.
(05:21):
Yeah me too.
April Snow (05:23):
I need a good plan, some heads up.
So you decide I don't want tobe a teacher, I'm going to go
down the therapist route.
And then at some point you andI don't know how this overlaps
you become a certified sextherapist, so I'm wondering what
leads you to that work.
Caitlin Weber (05:42):
Yeah, another great question.
And so I was in my ownindividual therapy and this was
after college, so not too longafter that Marie Coco
conversation and I was intherapy with a fantastic, my
first therapist ever.
I was such a sassy kid, I waskind of regressing and being
like a sassy teenager with herand I was just floundering in
(06:03):
life.
I didn't know what I wanted todo after college.
You know, I was working at acafe doing shift management,
which I wanted that brain break,but anyway.
Then she was like sick of mefloundering.
She's like what do you want todo with your life?
And I was like, don't think,just answer.
And I was like I mean, if Icould do this, I would just help
people with their sex lives.
But that's not a thing.
And she was like, yeah, it is,that's a career.
(06:25):
So she told me more about itand then she got me sort of on
that researching, hyper fixationand all the different paths
that you could do to become asex therapist.
So sex, the reason itinterested me, you know,
professionally, is that it's socomplex, like holy crap, you
know, there's so much that goesinto those sex lives, culture,
(06:47):
all the systems at play, all ofour histories, families of
origin, religious histories, youname it and so it's like
externalizing a lot of crapreally helps people have, so I
love that work yeah, you knowthis isn't something I realized
until becoming a therapist justhow nuanced and layered it is
and how so much feeds into Ithink we think about it often.
April Snow (07:09):
It's just the physical Right, but there's so
much under it and I appreciateyou talking about, like family
of origin and just all theseother pieces that you often
don't think about when you thinkabout how am I experiencing sex
?
So your love of that comesbefore becoming a therapist.
(07:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Caitlin Weber (07:30):
Most people like because they're like oh, I'm a
therapist and now I want to dosex therapy.
But I was, I want to be a sextherapist.
I guess I have to be atherapist first.
April Snow (07:39):
So I love that.
Yeah, that's kind of similar tome.
Is my love of sensitivity, thatkind of co-exec, coincided with
my becoming a therapist or not?
It didn't come right before,but I grew as a therapist as I'm
growing into the specialty andI just love that.
You knew that from the start.
Caitlin Weber (07:55):
Yeah.
April Snow (07:56):
This is my passion, this is what I want to do.
Caitlin Weber (07:58):
Yeah, yeah, it really helped clarify things.
I was sick of being lost inlife and then I had that real
direction to go.
April Snow (08:04):
So yeah, yeah.
Caitlin Weber (08:11):
It's just beautiful.
April Snow (08:12):
So, thinking about if we intersect sensitivity and
sex and you know, as HSPs webarely have enough time as it is
, we're more mentally,emotionally impacted by life.
So how do we and we'll get intosome of the deeper parts of
this, but just at a base levelhow do we carve out time for
into some of the deeper parts ofthis, but just at a base level?
How do we carve out time forsex as an hsp when we already
have limited bandwidth foreverything else?
Caitlin Weber (08:30):
yeah, great question, oh my gosh, and it's
complex, but basically we haveto make sure that we're able to
access a few specific like partsof being a human so that we can
access our sexuality.
So it's like being able torelax, which is easier said than
done, having the.
Sometimes it feels like theprivilege to relax, having the
(08:52):
time for sure to relax, havingthe, just the schedule, like
scheduling it out, which is partof what you really helped me
and a ton of people.
It's like figuring out yourschedule so that you can like
have time to relax and just beable to be a human.
In this very like internalizedcapitalistic culture, we're
always go, go, go, go go.
It's really bonkers like howbad it is.
(09:15):
And I did study abroad for ayear in college and this makes
me sound so like privileged andbougie.
But in France it's fantastic.
I just loved it so much andthey are way better than we are,
even though they're still aWestern culture.
They're way better at relaxingthan we are Like.
They're better at beingexistential and taking it slow.
(09:35):
They'll drink this tiny littleespresso on a cafe terrace for
like hours, possibly still beworking on that.
April Snow (09:46):
We could learn a lot from the French right.
Caitlin Weber (09:55):
We can, yes, and I came back from studying abroad
and I was just like hit withthis abrupt sort of like reverse
culture shock where I was likeI can't keep up here anymore and
of course I did Like I got backinto my groove.
I am American and now I'm go,go, go again a lot of the time.
But it was just this reallystark contrast.
So what was the originalquestion?
Oh yeah, how to carve out timeand space for sex.
Tangents are part of life,right?
April Snow (10:17):
So we love his HSPs.
Caitlin Weber (10:19):
Exactly, exactly so, carving out time and space
for sex.
You know, relaxation was onearea, so play is another area.
Like, are you able to accessplayfulness?
Like, does your childhoodtrauma allow you to access
playfulness?
A lot of people, due to theirchildhood trauma, they stop
learning.
(10:39):
They like learn to stop playingtoo early, if you will.
You're not playful as adults.
Adults need to play, just like,you know, kiddos do so.
I find a lot of times in mytherapy room people struggle
with getting playful and theytake life too seriously or
they're taking themselves reallyseriously and everything feels
like doom and gloom and life anddeath all the time.
(11:02):
And I'm like when are you justsilly?
Like when do you just fart andlaugh at it?
Are you just goofing aroundenough?
Our bodies are silly and theyjiggle and they're predictable
sometimes.
So we have sex in our bodies,so are we able to play with our
partners too?
And then the last area is oh, Iwrote it down so I wouldn't get
(11:24):
too sidetracked here Stress,play, relaxation, pleasure,
pleasure is the last one, ofcourse, doy.
And Emily Nagoski is likeprobably.
I mean, she is my absolutefavorite sex expert, right?
So she's a sex educator.
Wrote Come as you Are wroteCome Together more recently
(11:44):
about sex and long-termrelationships and is fantastic
about explaining this.
But pleasure is the name of thegame and like we're not able to
access pleasure in other areasof our lives, like food, for
example, or dance, or there's somany areas that we can actually
just have pure pleasure, likewhen you're playing with your
pets or playing with your kidsor playing in other areas.
(12:06):
So, yeah, like, are you able to?
Really, if you take the analogyof food, which eating disorders
are very similar to sexualproblems, because it's like if
you're overthinking this or ifyou're shooting yourself, you're
putting all these sheds onyourself or you have that like
diet culture and you have thefat phobia that affects both
your eating and your sex.
(12:27):
You know, if you think you'retoo fat, if you think that
you're too fat to have sex,you're too fat to eat a
cheeseburger, you're not havingpleasure when you're eating and
you're not having pleasure whenyou're having sex.
So, really, like I really helppeople learn how to have
pleasure again, which is a joyto do.
April Snow (12:44):
I bet, oh, I bet.
I mean just coming back intothe pleasure, the playfulness,
the relaxation which is reallyhelpful to hear, because
oftentimes you hear, oh, you canrelax, or you can have pleasure
during or post sex, butactually it's important to have
that before so you can soundslike you can be more in your
body and enjoy it more, yourbody and enjoy it more.
Caitlin Weber (13:06):
Oh, yes, yes.
And the way Emily Nagoski putit was like her book has you
draw a house and it's like ahouse that represents basically
like how to access your sex room.
So you have like a sex room inyour house and it's like what
rooms are next to it.
It's usually not caretaking,it's not caring for your
mother-in-law who lives with you, it's not caring for your
(13:26):
infant, it's not caring foryourself when you're super in
pain or sick, like that'susually not the role that you
have to walk through to get tothe sex room.
When I did her workshop, I wasin St Louis at the ASAC
conference and so we were alldoing it live with her there and
I was like I had just had ababy.
So I was like care, care, care,care, care.
(13:50):
Yes, not the pathway to sex.
Nope, and I think thatresonates with a lot of mamas
and papas.
So you know.
April Snow (13:55):
Yeah, and I'm just thinking as an HSP.
You know we need more kind ofslower, intentional transitions.
You're not going to go fromcaring to sex.
You need a kind of a buffer ora lead in.
Let me be playful, let me dosomething silly or something
pleasurable having some goodfood, or connecting with my
partner or even just I don'tknow playing outside.
(14:15):
What a good reminder that maybethere's something we need
before.
Caitlin Weber (14:21):
Maybe it's a bath .
April Snow (14:22):
Yeah, or a bath, yeah, yeah.
Are there any other examples ofhow playfulness, pleasure,
relaxation might show up beforesex?
Caitlin Weber (14:31):
Yeah, I think really like having a if you work
, if people have a job that theyneed to quit before they can
not quit your job.
Not saying everybody needs toquit their job, job for the day
so that you can actually bepresent with your family and
with your partner and withyourself.
Oh man, are we bad at beingmindful in this culture?
(14:54):
Right, and these phones don'thelp.
There's so much dopamine comingat us all the time from the
scrolling and so much like fearand doom.
Scrolling can happen as well.
So are you able to like shutdown after work and make a real
transition into your home life?
So I think if people like had abox in their house where they
could put these phones, lockthem up for a couple hours a
(15:16):
night, I bet there'd be like acorrelation there between having
more sex too.
April Snow (15:20):
Yeah right, it kind of opens things up more.
You might actually explore yourenvironment or connect with
your partner more.
Caitlin Weber (15:28):
Yeah, it's like, oh, I need this dopamine from
something else.
April Snow (15:32):
Yeah, right, exactly Right, we would seek it out.
That's so true.
We would seek out dopamine inmore physical ways versus based
on technology.
So that's a big struggle or abig barrier.
You know, being on the phonetoo much, trying to maybe rush
into sex without thinking aboutwhat's coming before, but what
are some of the other strugglesthat you see people dealing with
(15:54):
around sex?
That might be a barrier.
Caitlin Weber (15:57):
Yeah, the other thing is that they're not
embodied.
So embodiment is huge, you know, when they're not moving their
bodies in ways that either feelgood or at least neutral.
You know, taking a walk and ifyou actually think about it,
like going on a walk in yourneighborhood is chock full of
sensory stuff which as an hsp itis sometimes very stimulating.
(16:21):
But also for me, walking isstimulating in all the right
ways.
You smell the fresh air, youhear the birds this time of year
they're back.
Oh, I love the birds.
Looking outside it's stillhideous because it's the midwest
and it's like we won't have anycolor for a while, but so it's
brown and gray.
But it's still a good sensoryexperience.
(16:44):
And you get out there and youstart to have your blood pumping
through your body.
So physically it helps youprepare for sex as well by
stretching.
You know there's opening upyour backs and then you don't
have to be walking.
You can go to the gym first andthen take a shower.
You might want to have sexlater that night if that makes
you feel good, right?
(17:04):
Or dance class, or hiking, youname it.
April Snow (17:08):
It name all the exercises in the whole world
yeah, and that's the importantof being embodied just getting
that blood flowing, kind ofwaking yourself up, because I
know after I go I love going fora walk and like noticing the
little details.
And I'm in california so it'snot brown, so there's one more
color to see but even even withthe is you know, you're going to
notice the birds, or maybethere's a little hint of green
(17:31):
poking up through the frozenearth.
But it invigorates me.
I feel more alive, I feel moreexcited.
I want more experiences afterthat.
Caitlin Weber (17:40):
Yes, yes, yes, I don't think that we human beings
were.
I know that we weren'toriginally designed to.
If you're religious, I knowthat we weren't originally
designed to.
If you're religious religiousif you're if you believe in
evolution, like I do, then weevolved as this.
You know, we're primates, we'reapes.
We're supposed to be with likea group of apes, like itching
each other and picking bugs outof each other and like being
(18:00):
there for each other and nursingeach other's infants and all
that stuff.
So a lot of togetherness isactually kind of our default.
And as an HSP primate, likeearly primate, I would have been
like the one off in thedistance, like my family, like
watching everybody and I'll comepick a bug out and then go
(18:22):
leave.
It's true, that kind of joiningand then retreating, such a
weird analogy.
April Snow (18:27):
Like it's so true that we are.
Caitlin Weber (18:29):
you know, we're primates, we need visceral
experiences and togetherness too.
And togetherness, we're inthese isolated pods really.
And men, when you talk aboutlike, don't even get me started
(18:51):
on men like like, yes, there's alot of anger at the patriarchy
and all that.
But I also feel profoundly sadfor a lot of men sometimes
because they're socialized notto connect as much as we AFAB
people, women are, and it's likethey literally die of
loneliness sometimes because notconnecting enough.
So I could do a whole notherepisode on like men and how
sometimes they over focus on sex.
(19:12):
Not always, that's a hugegeneralization, but some women
over focus on sex, you know.
But like, oftentimes men overfocus on sex because it's the
only way that they know how toseek out vulnerable connection.
It's the way that they'resocialized to, rather than
crying with their partnertelling them how sad they are,
telling them how, talking abouttheir fears, talking about their
shame, stuff like that.
April Snow (19:33):
Yeah, there's just so much.
I mean, that's what'sacceptable, right?
So there's so much emphasis onsexual connection versus
emotional connection, which, asyou're saying, that can deepen
the sexual experience and it cancreate a lot more intimacy and
opportunities there and it cancreate a lot more intimacy and
opportunities there.
Caitlin Weber (19:52):
Yeah, and I don't have personal experience with
male partners.
Well, I don't mean to assumethat about you, but I mean no I
don't think so.
Yeah, we're just judging menfrom I know, from afar I'm like
I can, I'm speaking conceptually, yeah yeah, exactly, yeah, I've
definitely had experiences withmale partners, so that's helped
(20:13):
me yeah, yeah, I imagine thatit helps you give that
perspective.
April Snow (20:18):
So, just speaking about the sexual experience, you
know for I hear from a lot ofthe hsps that I work with that
sex can be over stimulating,it's can be too much, whether
that's physically, becausethere's a lot of you know it's
very sensory, or emotionally,like the emotions just really
flood in during or after sex.
How do we work with that?
Caitlin Weber (20:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's a really great question.
It really it depends.
So if you take the example ofsomebody with a tendency to be
overstimulated, you know, duringsex they might avoid it for
that.
For that reason, I talked witha lot of people who actually
have like, truly have OCD.
There's a lot of or autisticpeople as well.
(21:03):
Autistic folks sometimes arevery hypersensitive to certain
textures, sounds folks sometimesare very hypersensitive to
certain textures, sounds,pressures, all those different
feelings, emotions, like yousaid as well, sometimes people
need to be really specific aboutthe sensory input that they're
going to experience during sex.
So you want to make sure thatyour sex area, whether it's your
(21:24):
bedroom or whatnot, is set upfor you to have a good time.
So you don't want it to befreezing in there, you don't
want it to be too hot in there.
Maybe make sure that you likethe texture of your bedsheets,
make sure that you have lube,lube, All pro lube.
You know, have lube but havegood lubes and not all lubes are
(21:45):
equal.
I'm not a big fan of of kyjelly.
I won't ever be a endorser oftheir, sorry do you have a
favorite brand?
just as an aside, yeah I reallylike good, clean, love and I
also I someday I should get paidby them or something.
But and then I also like wickedI think is another brand.
So those are really nice.
(22:05):
Lubes have come a long way.
Don't even get me on a tangentabout lubes.
They've come a long way.
There's some great lubes outthere now.
So, yeah, people are going towant to make sure that the
textures that they haveavailable to them are things
that they like.
If your lube is tacky and if itdries out too fast, that's
going to put you off.
If your partner is touching youin ways that you're actually
(22:28):
not into and you're notcommunicating that to them,
that's going to put you off.
Right, if you're not beingtouched or touching yourself in
a way that actually feels good,that's going to put you off.
Like, a lot of people havepartnered sex very differently
than they masturbate.
So, like incorporating how youmasturbate into your partnered
(22:49):
sex world.
Sex life is really important.
You know, if you always certainway, how are you going to get
off when you're, unless you grabthat vibe, right, right, so,
having your vibes handy, havingthem charged, right, that's a
good point.
Yeah, have, yeah, yeah and I'mtrying to think of other sensory
(23:12):
things that will help.
Yeah, basically, just like whenyou improve the quality of your
sex, the frequency mightincrease.
It might also come not like alittle bit, I won't say
naturally, but you might be alot more willing to have sex if
it's sex worth having.
April Snow (23:31):
Yes, this makes a lot of sense for me as an HSP
and there's a lot of things wecan apply to like sleep setup,
like make sure the room you'rein or the area you're in is
sensory friendly, becauseotherwise that's taking a lot of
your energy that you could thenuse to communicate, to think
about what's you know you'reenjoying, all the other pieces,
and also, the more you havequality sex, then your brain has
(23:53):
that association Like ooh.
This is positive.
I want more of this versus ooh.
Last time I was veryuncomfortable or overstimulated
and I want to avoid that at allcosts.
So that's so powerful for anHSP.
Caitlin Weber (24:06):
Oh, totally.
And taking out the linear modelcompletely, we talk a lot of
sex therapists about this.
The linear model of sex is kindof what they teach you about
straight people's sex and inmovies and stuff, where it's
like you know, sex means penis,vaginal intercourse.
It always means that.
It always means that you'regoing to have an orgasm.
It always means that you'regoing to have.
That's a lot of pressure oneverybody.
(24:27):
So I always say it always meansthat you're going to have.
That's a lot of pressure oneverybody.
So I always say take thepressure off right.
It's like nobody has to have anerection to have sex.
Nobody has to have an orgasm tohave had sex.
Nobody has to have penetrationto have had sex.
So I don't have, you know,whiteboard here.
But whenever I have awhiteboard and we do the linear
(24:47):
model and I cross it out and Isay never have sex like this
again and then we do a circleit's called the circular model
of sex by Michelle, I think.
April Snow (24:56):
Besson.
I like to call it the lazySusan of fun and pleasure.
I've rebranded it.
Oh lazy.
Caitlin Weber (24:58):
Susan of fun and pleasure.
Love it If you like.
Spin a lazy Susan, you can getoff of it what you want, right?
So if you sit down to dinnerand you want the vegetable dish
and the starch but you don'twant the meat, you've still
eaten dinner with your family.
So similarly with sex, you knowyou can take off of this lazy
Susan of fun and pleasure whatyou want.
(25:19):
That time, right.
Maybe most of the time you likethe meat but you don't feel
like it tonight, okay, don't,don't have it.
So.
And then you can have sex onthat circular model for five
minutes.
You can have sex in thatcircular model for two hours
because circles are infinite.
So if you're ever at any pointsaying, you know I'm done, this
isn't working for me and I wantto go have a ham and cheese
(25:41):
sandwich, like, go do it,there's no harm, no foul.
So I think a lot of people justinflate their expectations of
sex and their definitions of sexand they think it's on this
pedestal and you got to getthere, otherwise you failed.
It's a performance and all thatis total garbage.
It's not about pleasure, it'snot about play.
April Snow (25:59):
Certainly not you want it to be.
It can go in whatever order youwant it to.
You can have whatever outcomeyou want it to.
You can do it as long or aslittle as you want to.
You don't have to fit that mold, which is what we're trying to
always learn as sensitive orneurodivergent people.
We can break out of the mold,yes exactly.
Caitlin Weber (26:21):
I find that that linear versus circular model is
the number one most effectiveintervention to help my clients
have great sex, Like it alwayshelps.
April Snow (26:31):
Right, because I think of you know, as sensitive
people.
We're very conscientious, we'revery perfectionistic.
We think, you know, we shouldonly do things a certain way.
And what models do we have?
We have movies, right, or youknow these, which are impossible
.
Ideals, like no let's breakthat down.
Yes.
Caitlin Weber (26:48):
Yes, yeah.
April Snow (26:49):
I love that Because that's a big barrier.
Caitlin Weber (26:52):
Exactly, yeah, exactly.
And what representations toqueer people have of sex in
films is terrible, if it's thereat all.
You know Exactly.
And so we oftentimes kind ofmodel our sex lives off of
straight people as well, andit's like wait, why are we doing
this Exactly?
April Snow (27:11):
Right, because it's so limiting.
Being queer.
There's lots of options for sex, which is exciting and fun, but
if you're putting yourself inthat box whether it be a
neurotypical box or aheterosexual box you lose so
many options.
I think that's what you'redoing for me today.
Caitlin is just reallyexpanding the idea of what sex
(27:33):
can be, and not just the sexitself, but what happens around.
Caitlin Weber (27:37):
Good good.
That's lovely.
Whenever I see a straightcouple too, I say to them or not
always, but when the vibe isgreat, pun intended.
I say to them I'm going to helpyou have sex more like lesbians
.
I say to them I'm going to helpyou have sex more like lesbians
.
They actually have studied thatlesbian sex is more fulfilling.
(27:58):
Lesbians have better sex.
April Snow (28:01):
Yeah, it's true, there's research proved.
Caitlin Weber (28:04):
Yeah, we're not so linear in our thinking and we
don't focus on this one sexualorgan, the penis.
What's the penis doing?
April Snow (28:13):
Right, right, it's more expansive.
Caitlin Weber (28:16):
Oh yes.
April Snow (28:16):
And get more creative.
Caitlin Weber (28:18):
Yes, yes, I always say the straights are not
okay.
April Snow (28:22):
They're not, it's true.
I often feel sorry for them.
Caitlin Weber (28:26):
Oh I know, Sorry straight people, sorry straight
people.
April Snow (28:32):
So that brings me to my next question, which is okay
.
We're talking about how sex canbe expansive and playful, and
fun and connected.
But what if it's boring or youfeel disconnected from your
partner?
It can really be hard to sitwith us in HSP, because we don't
like boring and we don't likeshallow or we don't like
disconnected.
(28:52):
So what do we do if sex isfeeling that way?
Caitlin Weber (28:55):
Yeah, really great questions.
I'll add pain to that list tooPain thank you yes, yeah, what
if sex is painful and not in afun kinky way where you're
injuring the pain?
Right?
That's like wanted, that'sconsented pain, but this is
unwanted pain.
So if you're having pain withyour pelvic floor, vaginal pain,
pain with intercourse, pain onyour vulva, all of that, then
(29:17):
we'll talk a little bit aboutthat and then we'll talk about
sex is boring or disconnecting.
So I'll start with.
I'll start with boring ordisconnected, because it's like
simpler, if you don't have pain,if it's boring or disconnected,
I would say that you're nothaving sex worth having.
If it's boring Probably meansyou're in a rut.
Might mean that you're doing itin a linear fashion, that you
(29:41):
expect the same thing every time.
You might be feeling like it'sthis and then that, and then
we're going to do this and thenwe orgasm and then we're done.
Well, it gets old.
Like you know, I talk to peoplewho have been married for 20
plus years and they've beendoing something the same exact
way that entire time.
Of course they're bored with it.
So that's where that circularmodel can help, because it's
(30:04):
like on that circle there'serotica that you can incorporate
.
You know, read your partner apassage from your favorite
romance novel or eroticaliterature and, like you know,
have them maybe touch themselvesduring it.
Right, have some mutualmasturbation during sex.
People don't masturbate duringsex.
It's such a problem.
You gotta masturbate during sex, right, like sometimes, because
(30:25):
you're the only one with thatdirect connection from your
brain, which is your most sexualorgan, to your hand, to your
genitals, and no one else hasthat moment to moment.
You know, millimeter bymillimeter, like feedback,
instantaneously, and communicateto your partner.
And you should communicate toyour partner like, ooh, a little
up, a little down, a littleleft, a little right, a little
(30:47):
harder, a little softer, grabthis vibe.
I need more lube.
Yes, that's all great tocommunicate, but also show them.
Show them what you do, showthem how you touch yourself.
Yeah, so, anyway, that's, ifsex is boring or disconnecting,
it's maybe what you're doing,how you're doing it.
It's not sex worth having.
April Snow (31:04):
It's not you necessarily, I think.
A lot of times people think I'mthe problem.
Yeah, but it could besomething's not working and you
can maybe expand what you'redoing, include more.
Caitlin Weber (31:15):
Yeah, I love that People are broken Everybody,
not everybody.
But a lot of people feel broken.
Yeah, people are not broken.
You know, if people truly arelike asexual and truly like
never want to have sex again intheir lives, that's valid, yeah,
and still not broken, notbroken, not broken.
But if you figure out that youwant to have sex, that's worth
(31:35):
having, cool right, always worthseeing a sex therapist.
If you're having sex that isn'tfeeling worth having, and then,
with pain, I really encouragepeople to see you know kind of
the trifecta which is the doctor, the physical therapist and the
mental health therapist.
I know it's a lot and you canstart with whichever, whichever
(31:56):
one you want, but you know thedoctor will rule out skin
conditions or infections orother gynecological or urology
conditions right, urological, Idon't know if that's how you say
that Conditions just to makesure that everything's fine
Physically.
They can also check yourhormones and make sure that your
cardiovascular health is incheck and all that.
(32:18):
And then, once you have the goahead, you know from the doc
then which, by the way, like ifyou are avoiding going to the
gynecologist and I see this allthe time because some people
have a lot of pain with thespeculum.
They have a lot of trauma inmedical settings like that.
Then see the sex therapistfirst.
Okay, you would switch thatorder and then yep, and then we
(32:40):
will help you with that, likehow to advocate for yourself,
how to say I am not ready forthat, or I want the plastic
speculum or I want you need togo slower.
And most gy and mostpsychologists are good, but some
people have complex traumahistories, complex histories
with rape or just pain histories.
So then the pelvic floorphysical therapist is another
(33:02):
huge part of pain healing, forsexual pain.
A lot of people don't even knowyou have a pelvic floor, but
it's the sling of muscles thatholds in your organs.
Otherwise we would just havethings like falling out of
muscles that holds in yourorgans.
Otherwise we would just havethings like falling out of our
butts and our vaginas.
You need the sling of musclesthat are sort of holding in your
organs, but sometimes we havesome dysfunction in those
(33:25):
muscles.
They get too tight, oftentimescertain areas, yes, they can get
weak as well.
So a pelvic floor physicaltherapist will help you figure
out what's too tight and whatneeds some myofascial release
and what needs somestrengthening and how to do it.
Some people don't need anystrengthening, especially with
sexual pain.
April Snow (33:44):
Okay, that's good to know.
I didn't even realize that.
You know I often will sendpeople to the doctor or to a sex
therapist, but having thatthird option the physical
therapist makes a lot of sense.
You're really teaching me a lottoday, and I didn't even know
that you could get a plasticspeculum.
Caitlin Weber (34:03):
Yeah, I know that it's this like medieval, like
metal speculum they bring itwith yes, it's so medieval.
April Snow (34:11):
It's crazy to me that they use that you know, I
know, but even just having adifferent material it's like oh
softens it yeah, yeah, they'resmaller.
Caitlin Weber (34:21):
What's that?
One size fits all.
April Snow (34:22):
They're smaller speculums right, okay, this is
good to know.
So there are ways to findrelief.
If you're uncomfortable orbored or disconnected, there are
things to do.
You don't have to feel stuckthere right, right.
Caitlin Weber (34:39):
Look at what you're doing and see if you want
to incorporate somethingdifferent, something new there's
porn out there that's made byqueer people for queer people,
by women for women.
Not all porn is created equal.
You know, I hate mainstreamporn, just like your next person
, because some of it's very likeableist, racist, misogynist
punishing of women.
(35:00):
A lot of mainstream porn isreally bad and it's also like
these penises that are this bigso they take the analogies of
human genitalia and then they'reall on Viagra and they're all
being fluffed in between takesso they look hard the whole time
.
So I have these young mencoming in going.
You know why am I notperforming like a porn star?
I'm like well, you're notshooting a porn film.
April Snow (35:21):
Right, exactly, it's all altered, yeah exactly yes.
So yeah, we have to have morerealistic expectations.
So you talked about, you knowsome folks may be asexual, but
(35:41):
what if you are justexperiencing a low sex drive?
You're not asexual, but younotice your sex drive is lower.
How can we navigate that?
And I think you've talked abouthow sensitive people often fall
in this category.
Caitlin Weber (35:49):
Yes, yes, yes.
So I'm glad you asked thatbecause I want to normalize
first and foremost that everydyadic relationship, so every
couple, has a higher desirepartner for sex and a lower
desire partner.
So that's normal, that'stypical, it's normal.
So, again, not broken, andthat's the case for, you know,
(36:10):
doing dishes as well or goingout to eat, like there's a
higher desire partner foreverything and lower desire
partner for everything.
Like I'm definitely the lowerdesire partner for frequency of
cleaning in my marriage, likesorry, boo, she's accepted me
for who loves me.
So just figuring out whichthings you desire more often,
which things you desire lessoften.
(36:31):
As a couple, you probably dolots of things together, not
just sex.
You probably go to see familytogether, you probably go to
movies together, maybe, or watchthem, at least you know.
So there's all kinds of areasand when we demystify sex, when
we take it off that pedestal andbring it into real life, into
the real world, then we canexpect realistic things from it,
(36:54):
just like we expect realisticthings from anything else.
So back to the point, if youare the lower desire partner for
sex, oftentimes it's thosethings that I mentioned early on
, like making sure that you'renot stressed to the max, like,
let's say you are in a straightrelationship, let's say you're
the.
If it's a cishet relationship,let's say you're the.
If it's a cishet relationship,let's say you're the wife, the
woman.
Make sure that your partner iscarrying his weight.
(37:17):
Make sure that he's doing asmuch of the housework as you're
doing.
If he's home, just as much asyou are.
And even if he's not, like ifyou're a stay at home mom, you
know your job never ends.
So oftentimes people are justcompletely exhausted and they
have zero capacity left foranything pleasurable at the end
of the night, aside from beingcomatose, like you know.
(37:38):
So that's one thing and theother thing is like making sure
that other.
It's often easier to like liftup on the brakes than it is to
apply more gas.
Meaning, what are your brakes?
This is the dual control modelof sex.
What are your sexual brakes?
What's the dual control modelof sex?
What are your sexual breaks?
What's hitting them?
Is it fear of pregnancy?
Is it fear of STIs?
Is it pain?
(37:59):
Is it your sexual traumatriggers and you need to see a
sex therapist?
Is it that it's not sex worthhaving?
What's hitting your breaks?
So easing up on those breakswill allow you to be willing to
have sex and, by the way,willingness is much more
important than libido.
So that's the receptive modelof desire where I didn't know I
(38:22):
was going to go over, like everyconcept of sex therapy.
April Snow (38:24):
Great, you're hitting all the bases.
Caitlin Weber (38:27):
The receptive model of desire is like first
you're're willing and then yougo and touch yourself and then
you are like into it, and thenyou're aroused and then you feel
desire.
So that's just as normal as itis to feel spontaneously like
horny or wanting to have sex.
In fact, it's much more commonfor kids, teenagers, to feel
(38:49):
spontaneously like desiring sexthan it is for, you know, 30s,
40s, 50s people who are stressedout and exhausted.
April Snow (38:58):
So Okay, so don't expect it just to turn right on.
There's a lead up, as with youwere talking about the rooms,
like build up to it.
Caitlin Weber (39:06):
Yeah, yeah.
And then also you can planahead.
There's the.
My favorite thing is the pencilit in intervention.
So that's not a write it inblood, and you know, write it in
ink.
There's the my favorite thingis the pencil it in intervention
.
So that's not a write it inblood, and you know, write it in
ink, it's write it in pencil.
This is a metaphor, right?
Or you can write it in pencilon your calendar if you have a
physical calendar.
But it's like you know, pencilit into your calendar.
It's there.
(39:26):
You're planning on having sexon Thursday night because it's
Wednesday and tomorrow nightlooks free.
But if tomorrow night rollsaround and you have a migraine,
like please don't force yourself.
April Snow (39:38):
Yeah, it can be flexible.
Caitlin Weber (39:40):
Yeah, be flexible .
It's just like signing up for adance class.
You're not going to go if youare having the worst day of your
life, right?
I hope not.
I hope that you would cry withyour partner then.
Yeah right, you're not going togo.
If you're at each other'sthroats and you know not getting
along in any dimension, then Ihope you go to couples therapy,
(40:01):
right?
Yes, yeah it's like planningahead softly for a future sexual
encounter, but not feeling likeyou have to do it when it rolls
around.
Have to do it when it rollsaround and if you find that you
plan ahead and it's nothappening, it's not happening,
it's not happening, then itmight be that there's too much
on your brakes or it might bethat it's not sex worth having.
April Snow (40:21):
That's a good way to kind of just check yourself,
like are there barriers or issomething else going on, and I
appreciate that putting it onthe counter, because in some
ways it's like, oh, is thatcliche?
But it's like, no, you'reprioritizing it.
Caitlin Weber (40:36):
Yes, yes yes, yeah, and it's not the like.
I don't want your partner tothink the higher desire partner.
They shouldn't and they won'texpect it to absolutely happen.
That's just not.
That's not a consent, that'sthe lack of consent, right?
Yes, so if your partner feelsentitled to sex with you, that's
(40:58):
the patriarchy.
It's usually men, you know.
I mean like I've seen womenfeel entitled to sex with their
partner.
But it's like just because youare with somebody, it doesn't
mean you own them.
It doesn't mean that's what youneed, absolutely.
You are not entitled to have sex.
It's a joint decision.
April Snow (41:10):
Joint decision yes, okay.
So looking at breaks, lookingat bringing in more playfulness,
relaxation, pleasure andreminding yourself that you're
not broken, and if there issomething getting in the way,
reach out for support.
Yes, yeah, yeah, caitlin,you've already shared so much,
(41:36):
but just before we go, I'd loveto hear if there's any final
message that you want to sharewith HSPs, or what it'd be.
Caitlin Weber (41:40):
Oh man, I think my final message would be I love
all my fellow HSPs.
I think that the world needs us.
The world needs people who areoverwhelmed by overwhelming
things to like sit down andthink about them.
I think we sometimes change theworld and we sometimes feel too
much of the weight of the worldon our shoulders.
So, you know, if you have sexworth having, that could be a
(42:03):
vacation from real life for alittle while.
It can be a place where youjust enjoy, right.
So if you take all the culturalcrap and the trauma and all
that, if you're able toexternalize a lot of that stuff
from you through some good work,then hopefully your sex life
will improve and it can be alittle break from all of the
(42:24):
hard work that we do as HSPs.
April Snow (42:26):
Yeah, I love that.
It's like sex is self-care.
Yes, yeah, it really is.
Well, I just really appreciateeverything that you shared today
and if there's folks that wantto reach out for you, I'll share
your website, your social mediaand the show notes.
You offer individual couplestherapy in Wisconsin, or folks
can reach out to you fromanywhere if they are interested
(42:46):
in coaching.
I'm also curious I think youhave some workshops coming up If
you could share a little bitabout that as well.
Caitlin Weber (42:53):
Yeah, yeah, in May I'm teaching therapists how
to talk to their clients aboutsex and actually how to help
with desire, discrepancy for sex, specifically so same as the
topics today, and we'll betalking about embodiment,
mindfulness, basically all thisstuff just more in depth.
So if you're a therapist, feelfree to come.
(43:13):
And then workshops for otherfolks.
I don't have organized quiteyet, but there's a lot of ideas
percolating and I really want tohelp parents learn how to talk
to their kids about sex.
So I'm going to set up one ofthose workshops someday.
April Snow (43:27):
Great, yeah, it sounds like you have a lot of
resources available and more inthe works, which is really
exciting.
Yeah, it sounds like you have alot of resources available and
more in the works, which isreally exciting, wonderful Well,
caitlin, thank you so much fortoday.
Caitlin Weber (43:37):
Thank you so much for having me Really really.
April Snow (43:39):
It was fun.
Caitlin Weber (43:41):
It was really fun .
April Snow (43:47):
Thanks so much for joining me and Caitlin for
today's conversation.
What I hope you remember fromtoday is that sex can be
enjoyable, fun and deeplyconnected, maybe even a form of
self-care, and if it's not,remember that you're not broken,
you just may need a littlesupport To work with Caitlin for
therapy or coaching.
You can visit WeberTherapycomthat's W-E-B-E-R Therapcom or
(44:14):
find more resources in the shownotes.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSB resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
Strengths on Instagram, tiktokand YouTube.
(44:36):
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
when we demystify sex, when we take it off that
pedestal and bring it into reallife, into the real world, then
we can expect realistic thingsfrom it, just like we expect
realistic things from anythingelse.
April Snow (00:21):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
(00:43):
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withCaitlin Weber about carving out
the mental space for sex as anHSP, what to do when sex is
over-simulating, boring or evenpainful, and how to navigate a
lower sex drive.
Caitlin is a marriage and familytherapist and certified sex
therapist by ASECT, the AmericanAssociation of Sexuality
(01:05):
Educators, counselors andTherapists.
As a cis white queer therapistin Wisconsin, she helps
individuals and couples navigatesexual pain and trauma, sexual
orientation and gender identitydiscovery, perinatal mood and
anxiety disorders, infertilitytrauma, kink, polyamory and
grief.
Caitlin also helps peopleexternalize all of the damaging
(01:28):
systems we inherit, such asracism, ableism, fat phobia,
patriarchy, religious trauma,capitalism and colonialism, so
that they can truly thrive andlive authentically while
accessing pleasure.
For more HSP resources and tosee behind the scenes video from
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
(01:49):
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
treatment with mental health ormedical professional.
Let's dive in, caitlin.
(02:27):
I just want to welcome you tothe podcast.
I'm so happy to chat with youtoday.
Caitlin Weber (02:31):
Thank you so much for having me, of course.
April Snow (02:34):
I'd love to start off with looking at your HSP
discovery story.
If you can remember how or whenyou realized that you're a
highly sensitive person.
Caitlin Weber (02:43):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I mentioned that I'll betalking about this today, but
there's sort of an overlapbetween introversion and HSPs,
which I'm sure that you talkabout quite a lot.
So I figured out I was anintrovert a lot farther back
than I figured out I was an HSP,if you will.
And then also I figured out Iwas an HSP before I figured out
(03:04):
I was neurodivergent.
April Snow (03:06):
It's a process.
Caitlin Weber (03:08):
It's a process and there's so much overlap
right of these sort of threephenomena or diagnoses, or you
know not that HSP is a diagnosis, but so, anyway, I first found
out I was introverted when I wasin college, which was way too
late to find that out, but veryhelpful when I was in college,
which was way too late to findthat out, but very helpful.
And you know, I was talking toactually a career advisor,
(03:33):
because I was trying to figureout if I wanted to teach or if I
wanted to, what on earth Iwanted to do.
And I'll always remember hername was Marie Coco and she was
so nice and she was like you'rean introvert Cause I was really
concerned about having this hugeclassroom of kids in front of
me and being so overstimulated.
If I met with her today, maybeshe'd be like maybe you're
neurodivergent, but back in theday, in the 2010s, when I was no
(03:56):
, I guess this was the 2000s, ohmy God, when I was learning
better, then that was sort ofthe language.
So I figured out that I was veryeasily overstimulated.
I really needed a lot ofdowntime to recharge and I
probably really preferred havingone-on-one conversations rather
than a huge group.
That being said, I do liketeaching, but I like to have it
(04:18):
in controlled environments whereI know what to expect a little
bit and I know that I can say noquestions until this time.
You know like yeah, I'm thesame.
It's to expect a little bit andI know that I can say no
questions until this time.
April Snow (04:25):
You know like yeah, I'm the same.
It's like having a little bitmore predictability instead of
the chaos of a big classroom.
Caitlin Weber (04:33):
Yes, yes, exactly .
Very glad I didn't go intoteaching little kids so.
And then HSP I learned moreabout actually a few years ago
my wife brought it up and she'slike this is actually a thing,
and I was like, oh, that alsofits really well.
April Snow (04:47):
So, yeah, I had the same unfolding.
I was like, oh, I'm introvertedand I was really learning about
that in grad school and I waslike, wait, I'm highly sensitive
.
It's like, oh, there's anotherlayer and then there's other
layers that have unfolded too.
Caitlin Weber (04:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we have so many like I like
to call them sometimes myspecial needs, and that's okay,
like it's okay that we havespecial needs, that we need a
little bit of tender, loving,care and just like being able to
say no to things and being ableto plan meticulously and I'm
definitely not just like a spurof the moment gal usually.
(05:21):
Yeah me too.
April Snow (05:23):
I need a good plan, some heads up.
So you decide I don't want tobe a teacher, I'm going to go
down the therapist route.
And then at some point you andI don't know how this overlaps
you become a certified sextherapist, so I'm wondering what
leads you to that work.
Caitlin Weber (05:42):
Yeah, another great question.
And so I was in my ownindividual therapy and this was
after college, so not too longafter that Marie Coco
conversation and I was intherapy with a fantastic, my
first therapist ever.
I was such a sassy kid, I waskind of regressing and being
like a sassy teenager with herand I was just floundering in
(06:03):
life.
I didn't know what I wanted todo after college.
You know, I was working at acafe doing shift management,
which I wanted that brain break,but anyway.
Then she was like sick of mefloundering.
She's like what do you want todo with your life?
And I was like, don't think,just answer.
And I was like I mean, if Icould do this, I would just help
people with their sex lives.
But that's not a thing.
And she was like, yeah, it is,that's a career.
(06:25):
So she told me more about itand then she got me sort of on
that researching, hyper fixationand all the different paths
that you could do to become asex therapist.
So sex, the reason itinterested me, you know,
professionally, is that it's socomplex, like holy crap, you
know, there's so much that goesinto those sex lives, culture,
(06:47):
all the systems at play, all ofour histories, families of
origin, religious histories, youname it and so it's like
externalizing a lot of crapreally helps people have, so I
love that work yeah, you knowthis isn't something I realized
until becoming a therapist justhow nuanced and layered it is
and how so much feeds into Ithink we think about it often.
April Snow (07:09):
It's just the physical Right, but there's so
much under it and I appreciateyou talking about, like family
of origin and just all theseother pieces that you often
don't think about when you thinkabout how am I experiencing sex
?
So your love of that comesbefore becoming a therapist.
(07:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Caitlin Weber (07:30):
Most people like because they're like oh, I'm a
therapist and now I want to dosex therapy.
But I was, I want to be a sextherapist.
I guess I have to be atherapist first.
April Snow (07:39):
So I love that.
Yeah, that's kind of similar tome.
Is my love of sensitivity, thatkind of co-exec, coincided with
my becoming a therapist or not?
It didn't come right before,but I grew as a therapist as I'm
growing into the specialty andI just love that.
You knew that from the start.
Caitlin Weber (07:55):
Yeah.
April Snow (07:56):
This is my passion, this is what I want to do.
Caitlin Weber (07:58):
Yeah, yeah, it really helped clarify things.
I was sick of being lost inlife and then I had that real
direction to go.
April Snow (08:04):
So yeah, yeah.
Caitlin Weber (08:11):
It's just beautiful.
April Snow (08:12):
So, thinking about if we intersect sensitivity and
sex and you know, as HSPs webarely have enough time as it is
, we're more mentally,emotionally impacted by life.
So how do we and we'll get intosome of the deeper parts of
this, but just at a base levelhow do we carve out time for
into some of the deeper parts ofthis, but just at a base level?
How do we carve out time forsex as an hsp when we already
have limited bandwidth foreverything else?
Caitlin Weber (08:30):
yeah, great question, oh my gosh, and it's
complex, but basically we haveto make sure that we're able to
access a few specific like partsof being a human so that we can
access our sexuality.
So it's like being able torelax, which is easier said than
done, having the.
Sometimes it feels like theprivilege to relax, having the
(08:52):
time for sure to relax, havingthe, just the schedule, like
scheduling it out, which is partof what you really helped me
and a ton of people.
It's like figuring out yourschedule so that you can like
have time to relax and just beable to be a human.
In this very like internalizedcapitalistic culture, we're
always go, go, go, go go.
It's really bonkers like howbad it is.
(09:15):
And I did study abroad for ayear in college and this makes
me sound so like privileged andbougie.
But in France it's fantastic.
I just loved it so much andthey are way better than we are,
even though they're still aWestern culture.
They're way better at relaxingthan we are Like.
They're better at beingexistential and taking it slow.
(09:35):
They'll drink this tiny littleespresso on a cafe terrace for
like hours, possibly still beworking on that.
April Snow (09:46):
We could learn a lot from the French right.
Caitlin Weber (09:55):
We can, yes, and I came back from studying abroad
and I was just like hit withthis abrupt sort of like reverse
culture shock where I was likeI can't keep up here anymore and
of course I did Like I got backinto my groove.
I am American and now I'm go,go, go again a lot of the time.
But it was just this reallystark contrast.
So what was the originalquestion?
Oh yeah, how to carve out timeand space for sex.
Tangents are part of life,right?
April Snow (10:17):
So we love his HSPs.
Caitlin Weber (10:19):
Exactly, exactly so, carving out time and space
for sex.
You know, relaxation was onearea, so play is another area.
Like, are you able to accessplayfulness?
Like, does your childhoodtrauma allow you to access
playfulness?
A lot of people, due to theirchildhood trauma, they stop
learning.
(10:39):
They like learn to stop playingtoo early, if you will.
You're not playful as adults.
Adults need to play, just like,you know, kiddos do so.
I find a lot of times in mytherapy room people struggle
with getting playful and theytake life too seriously or
they're taking themselves reallyseriously and everything feels
like doom and gloom and life anddeath all the time.
(11:02):
And I'm like when are you justsilly?
Like when do you just fart andlaugh at it?
Are you just goofing aroundenough?
Our bodies are silly and theyjiggle and they're predictable
sometimes.
So we have sex in our bodies,so are we able to play with our
partners too?
And then the last area is oh, Iwrote it down so I wouldn't get
(11:24):
too sidetracked here Stress,play, relaxation, pleasure,
pleasure is the last one, ofcourse, doy.
And Emily Nagoski is likeprobably.
I mean, she is my absolutefavorite sex expert, right?
So she's a sex educator.
Wrote Come as you Are wroteCome Together more recently
(11:44):
about sex and long-termrelationships and is fantastic
about explaining this.
But pleasure is the name of thegame and like we're not able to
access pleasure in other areasof our lives, like food, for
example, or dance, or there's somany areas that we can actually
just have pure pleasure, likewhen you're playing with your
pets or playing with your kidsor playing in other areas.
(12:06):
So, yeah, like, are you able to?
Really, if you take the analogyof food, which eating disorders
are very similar to sexualproblems, because it's like if
you're overthinking this or ifyou're shooting yourself, you're
putting all these sheds onyourself or you have that like
diet culture and you have thefat phobia that affects both
your eating and your sex.
(12:27):
You know, if you think you'retoo fat, if you think that
you're too fat to have sex,you're too fat to eat a
cheeseburger, you're not havingpleasure when you're eating and
you're not having pleasure whenyou're having sex.
So, really, like I really helppeople learn how to have
pleasure again, which is a joyto do.
April Snow (12:44):
I bet, oh, I bet.
I mean just coming back intothe pleasure, the playfulness,
the relaxation which is reallyhelpful to hear, because
oftentimes you hear, oh, you canrelax, or you can have pleasure
during or post sex, butactually it's important to have
that before so you can soundslike you can be more in your
body and enjoy it more, yourbody and enjoy it more.
Caitlin Weber (13:06):
Oh, yes, yes.
And the way Emily Nagoski putit was like her book has you
draw a house and it's like ahouse that represents basically
like how to access your sex room.
So you have like a sex room inyour house and it's like what
rooms are next to it.
It's usually not caretaking,it's not caring for your
mother-in-law who lives with you, it's not caring for your
(13:26):
infant, it's not caring foryourself when you're super in
pain or sick, like that'susually not the role that you
have to walk through to get tothe sex room.
When I did her workshop, I wasin St Louis at the ASAC
conference and so we were alldoing it live with her there and
I was like I had just had ababy.
So I was like care, care, care,care, care.
(13:50):
Yes, not the pathway to sex.
Nope, and I think thatresonates with a lot of mamas
and papas.
So you know.
April Snow (13:55):
Yeah, and I'm just thinking as an HSP.
You know we need more kind ofslower, intentional transitions.
You're not going to go fromcaring to sex.
You need a kind of a buffer ora lead in.
Let me be playful, let me dosomething silly or something
pleasurable having some goodfood, or connecting with my
partner or even just I don'tknow playing outside.
(14:15):
What a good reminder that maybethere's something we need
before.
Caitlin Weber (14:21):
Maybe it's a bath .
April Snow (14:22):
Yeah, or a bath, yeah, yeah.
Are there any other examples ofhow playfulness, pleasure,
relaxation might show up beforesex?
Caitlin Weber (14:31):
Yeah, I think really like having a if you work
, if people have a job that theyneed to quit before they can
not quit your job.
Not saying everybody needs toquit their job, job for the day
so that you can actually bepresent with your family and
with your partner and withyourself.
Oh man, are we bad at beingmindful in this culture?
(14:54):
Right, and these phones don'thelp.
There's so much dopamine comingat us all the time from the
scrolling and so much like fearand doom.
Scrolling can happen as well.
So are you able to like shutdown after work and make a real
transition into your home life?
So I think if people like had abox in their house where they
could put these phones, lockthem up for a couple hours a
(15:16):
night, I bet there'd be like acorrelation there between having
more sex too.
April Snow (15:20):
Yeah right, it kind of opens things up more.
You might actually explore yourenvironment or connect with
your partner more.
Caitlin Weber (15:28):
Yeah, it's like, oh, I need this dopamine from
something else.
April Snow (15:32):
Yeah, right, exactly Right, we would seek it out.
That's so true.
We would seek out dopamine inmore physical ways versus based
on technology.
So that's a big struggle or abig barrier.
You know, being on the phonetoo much, trying to maybe rush
into sex without thinking aboutwhat's coming before, but what
are some of the other strugglesthat you see people dealing with
(15:54):
around sex?
That might be a barrier.
Caitlin Weber (15:57):
Yeah, the other thing is that they're not
embodied.
So embodiment is huge, you know, when they're not moving their
bodies in ways that either feelgood or at least neutral.
You know, taking a walk and ifyou actually think about it,
like going on a walk in yourneighborhood is chock full of
sensory stuff which as an hsp itis sometimes very stimulating.
(16:21):
But also for me, walking isstimulating in all the right
ways.
You smell the fresh air, youhear the birds this time of year
they're back.
Oh, I love the birds.
Looking outside it's stillhideous because it's the midwest
and it's like we won't have anycolor for a while, but so it's
brown and gray.
But it's still a good sensoryexperience.
(16:44):
And you get out there and youstart to have your blood pumping
through your body.
So physically it helps youprepare for sex as well by
stretching.
You know there's opening upyour backs and then you don't
have to be walking.
You can go to the gym first andthen take a shower.
You might want to have sexlater that night if that makes
you feel good, right?
(17:04):
Or dance class, or hiking, youname it.
April Snow (17:08):
It name all the exercises in the whole world
yeah, and that's the importantof being embodied just getting
that blood flowing, kind ofwaking yourself up, because I
know after I go I love going fora walk and like noticing the
little details.
And I'm in california so it'snot brown, so there's one more
color to see but even even withthe is you know, you're going to
notice the birds, or maybethere's a little hint of green
(17:31):
poking up through the frozenearth.
But it invigorates me.
I feel more alive, I feel moreexcited.
I want more experiences afterthat.
Caitlin Weber (17:40):
Yes, yes, yes, I don't think that we human beings
were.
I know that we weren'toriginally designed to.
If you're religious, I knowthat we weren't originally
designed to.
If you're religious religiousif you're if you believe in
evolution, like I do, then weevolved as this.
You know, we're primates, we'reapes.
We're supposed to be with likea group of apes, like itching
each other and picking bugs outof each other and like being
(18:00):
there for each other and nursingeach other's infants and all
that stuff.
So a lot of togetherness isactually kind of our default.
And as an HSP primate, likeearly primate, I would have been
like the one off in thedistance, like my family, like
watching everybody and I'll comepick a bug out and then go
(18:22):
leave.
It's true, that kind of joiningand then retreating, such a
weird analogy.
April Snow (18:27):
Like it's so true that we are.
Caitlin Weber (18:29):
you know, we're primates, we need visceral
experiences and togetherness too.
And togetherness, we're inthese isolated pods really.
And men, when you talk aboutlike, don't even get me started
(18:51):
on men like like, yes, there's alot of anger at the patriarchy
and all that.
But I also feel profoundly sadfor a lot of men sometimes
because they're socialized notto connect as much as we AFAB
people, women are, and it's likethey literally die of
loneliness sometimes because notconnecting enough.
So I could do a whole notherepisode on like men and how
sometimes they over focus on sex.
(19:12):
Not always, that's a hugegeneralization, but some women
over focus on sex, you know.
But like, oftentimes men overfocus on sex because it's the
only way that they know how toseek out vulnerable connection.
It's the way that they'resocialized to, rather than
crying with their partnertelling them how sad they are,
telling them how, talking abouttheir fears, talking about their
shame, stuff like that.
April Snow (19:33):
Yeah, there's just so much.
I mean, that's what'sacceptable, right?
So there's so much emphasis onsexual connection versus
emotional connection, which, asyou're saying, that can deepen
the sexual experience and it cancreate a lot more intimacy and
opportunities there and it cancreate a lot more intimacy and
opportunities there.
Caitlin Weber (19:52):
Yeah, and I don't have personal experience with
male partners.
Well, I don't mean to assumethat about you, but I mean no I
don't think so.
Yeah, we're just judging menfrom I know, from afar I'm like
I can, I'm speaking conceptually, yeah yeah, exactly, yeah, I've
definitely had experiences withmale partners, so that's helped
(20:13):
me yeah, yeah, I imagine thatit helps you give that
perspective.
April Snow (20:18):
So, just speaking about the sexual experience, you
know for I hear from a lot ofthe hsps that I work with that
sex can be over stimulating,it's can be too much, whether
that's physically, becausethere's a lot of you know it's
very sensory, or emotionally,like the emotions just really
flood in during or after sex.
How do we work with that?
Caitlin Weber (20:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's a really great question.
It really it depends.
So if you take the example ofsomebody with a tendency to be
overstimulated, you know, duringsex they might avoid it for
that.
For that reason, I talked witha lot of people who actually
have like, truly have OCD.
There's a lot of or autisticpeople as well.
(21:03):
Autistic folks sometimes arevery hypersensitive to certain
textures, sounds folks sometimesare very hypersensitive to
certain textures, sounds,pressures, all those different
feelings, emotions, like yousaid as well, sometimes people
need to be really specific aboutthe sensory input that they're
going to experience during sex.
So you want to make sure thatyour sex area, whether it's your
(21:24):
bedroom or whatnot, is set upfor you to have a good time.
So you don't want it to befreezing in there, you don't
want it to be too hot in there.
Maybe make sure that you likethe texture of your bedsheets,
make sure that you have lube,lube, All pro lube.
You know, have lube but havegood lubes and not all lubes are
(21:45):
equal.
I'm not a big fan of of kyjelly.
I won't ever be a endorser oftheir, sorry do you have a
favorite brand?
just as an aside, yeah I reallylike good, clean, love and I
also I someday I should get paidby them or something.
But and then I also like wickedI think is another brand.
So those are really nice.
(22:05):
Lubes have come a long way.
Don't even get me on a tangentabout lubes.
They've come a long way.
There's some great lubes outthere now.
So, yeah, people are going towant to make sure that the
textures that they haveavailable to them are things
that they like.
If your lube is tacky and if itdries out too fast, that's
going to put you off.
If your partner is touching youin ways that you're actually
(22:28):
not into and you're notcommunicating that to them,
that's going to put you off.
Right, if you're not beingtouched or touching yourself in
a way that actually feels good,that's going to put you off.
Like, a lot of people havepartnered sex very differently
than they masturbate.
So, like incorporating how youmasturbate into your partnered
(22:49):
sex world.
Sex life is really important.
You know, if you always certainway, how are you going to get
off when you're, unless you grabthat vibe, right, right, so,
having your vibes handy, havingthem charged, right, that's a
good point.
Yeah, have, yeah, yeah and I'mtrying to think of other sensory
(23:12):
things that will help.
Yeah, basically, just like whenyou improve the quality of your
sex, the frequency mightincrease.
It might also come not like alittle bit, I won't say
naturally, but you might be alot more willing to have sex if
it's sex worth having.
April Snow (23:31):
Yes, this makes a lot of sense for me as an HSP
and there's a lot of things wecan apply to like sleep setup,
like make sure the room you'rein or the area you're in is
sensory friendly, becauseotherwise that's taking a lot of
your energy that you could thenuse to communicate, to think
about what's you know you'reenjoying, all the other pieces,
and also, the more you havequality sex, then your brain has
(23:53):
that association Like ooh.
This is positive.
I want more of this versus ooh.
Last time I was veryuncomfortable or overstimulated
and I want to avoid that at allcosts.
So that's so powerful for anHSP.
Caitlin Weber (24:06):
Oh, totally.
And taking out the linear modelcompletely, we talk a lot of
sex therapists about this.
The linear model of sex is kindof what they teach you about
straight people's sex and inmovies and stuff, where it's
like you know, sex means penis,vaginal intercourse.
It always means that.
It always means that you'regoing to have an orgasm.
It always means that you'regoing to have.
That's a lot of pressure oneverybody.
(24:27):
So I always say it always meansthat you're going to have.
That's a lot of pressure oneverybody.
So I always say take thepressure off right.
It's like nobody has to have anerection to have sex.
Nobody has to have an orgasm tohave had sex.
Nobody has to have penetrationto have had sex.
So I don't have, you know,whiteboard here.
But whenever I have awhiteboard and we do the linear
(24:47):
model and I cross it out and Isay never have sex like this
again and then we do a circleit's called the circular model
of sex by Michelle, I think.
April Snow (24:56):
Besson.
I like to call it the lazySusan of fun and pleasure.
I've rebranded it.
Oh lazy.
Caitlin Weber (24:58):
Susan of fun and pleasure.
Love it If you like.
Spin a lazy Susan, you can getoff of it what you want, right?
So if you sit down to dinnerand you want the vegetable dish
and the starch but you don'twant the meat, you've still
eaten dinner with your family.
So similarly with sex, you knowyou can take off of this lazy
Susan of fun and pleasure whatyou want.
(25:19):
That time, right.
Maybe most of the time you likethe meat but you don't feel
like it tonight, okay, don't,don't have it.
So.
And then you can have sex onthat circular model for five
minutes.
You can have sex in thatcircular model for two hours
because circles are infinite.
So if you're ever at any pointsaying, you know I'm done, this
isn't working for me and I wantto go have a ham and cheese
(25:41):
sandwich, like, go do it,there's no harm, no foul.
So I think a lot of people justinflate their expectations of
sex and their definitions of sexand they think it's on this
pedestal and you got to getthere, otherwise you failed.
It's a performance and all thatis total garbage.
It's not about pleasure, it'snot about play.
April Snow (25:59):
Certainly not you want it to be.
It can go in whatever order youwant it to.
You can have whatever outcomeyou want it to.
You can do it as long or aslittle as you want to.
You don't have to fit that mold, which is what we're trying to
always learn as sensitive orneurodivergent people.
We can break out of the mold,yes exactly.
Caitlin Weber (26:21):
I find that that linear versus circular model is
the number one most effectiveintervention to help my clients
have great sex, Like it alwayshelps.
April Snow (26:31):
Right, because I think of you know, as sensitive
people.
We're very conscientious, we'revery perfectionistic.
We think, you know, we shouldonly do things a certain way.
And what models do we have?
We have movies, right, or youknow these, which are impossible
.
Ideals, like no let's breakthat down.
Yes.
Caitlin Weber (26:48):
Yes, yeah.
April Snow (26:49):
I love that Because that's a big barrier.
Caitlin Weber (26:52):
Exactly, yeah, exactly.
And what representations toqueer people have of sex in
films is terrible, if it's thereat all.
You know Exactly.
And so we oftentimes kind ofmodel our sex lives off of
straight people as well, andit's like wait, why are we doing
this Exactly?
April Snow (27:11):
Right, because it's so limiting.
Being queer.
There's lots of options for sex, which is exciting and fun, but
if you're putting yourself inthat box whether it be a
neurotypical box or aheterosexual box you lose so
many options.
I think that's what you'redoing for me today.
Caitlin is just reallyexpanding the idea of what sex
(27:33):
can be, and not just the sexitself, but what happens around.
Caitlin Weber (27:37):
Good good.
That's lovely.
Whenever I see a straightcouple too, I say to them or not
always, but when the vibe isgreat, pun intended.
I say to them I'm going to helpyou have sex more like lesbians
.
I say to them I'm going to helpyou have sex more like lesbians
.
They actually have studied thatlesbian sex is more fulfilling.
(27:58):
Lesbians have better sex.
April Snow (28:01):
Yeah, it's true, there's research proved.
Caitlin Weber (28:04):
Yeah, we're not so linear in our thinking and we
don't focus on this one sexualorgan, the penis.
What's the penis doing?
April Snow (28:13):
Right, right, it's more expansive.
Caitlin Weber (28:16):
Oh yes.
April Snow (28:16):
And get more creative.
Caitlin Weber (28:18):
Yes, yes, I always say the straights are not
okay.
April Snow (28:22):
They're not, it's true.
I often feel sorry for them.
Caitlin Weber (28:26):
Oh I know, Sorry straight people, sorry straight
people.
April Snow (28:32):
So that brings me to my next question, which is okay
.
We're talking about how sex canbe expansive and playful, and
fun and connected.
But what if it's boring or youfeel disconnected from your
partner?
It can really be hard to sitwith us in HSP, because we don't
like boring and we don't likeshallow or we don't like
disconnected.
(28:52):
So what do we do if sex isfeeling that way?
Caitlin Weber (28:55):
Yeah, really great questions.
I'll add pain to that list tooPain thank you yes, yeah, what
if sex is painful and not in afun kinky way where you're
injuring the pain?
Right?
That's like wanted, that'sconsented pain, but this is
unwanted pain.
So if you're having pain withyour pelvic floor, vaginal pain,
pain with intercourse, pain onyour vulva, all of that, then
(29:17):
we'll talk a little bit aboutthat and then we'll talk about
sex is boring or disconnecting.
So I'll start with.
I'll start with boring ordisconnected, because it's like
simpler, if you don't have pain,if it's boring or disconnected,
I would say that you're nothaving sex worth having.
If it's boring Probably meansyou're in a rut.
Might mean that you're doing itin a linear fashion, that you
(29:41):
expect the same thing every time.
You might be feeling like it'sthis and then that, and then
we're going to do this and thenwe orgasm and then we're done.
Well, it gets old.
Like you know, I talk to peoplewho have been married for 20
plus years and they've beendoing something the same exact
way that entire time.
Of course they're bored with it.
So that's where that circularmodel can help, because it's
(30:04):
like on that circle there'serotica that you can incorporate
.
You know, read your partner apassage from your favorite
romance novel or eroticaliterature and, like you know,
have them maybe touch themselvesduring it.
Right, have some mutualmasturbation during sex.
People don't masturbate duringsex.
It's such a problem.
You gotta masturbate during sex, right, like sometimes, because
(30:25):
you're the only one with thatdirect connection from your
brain, which is your most sexualorgan, to your hand, to your
genitals, and no one else hasthat moment to moment.
You know, millimeter bymillimeter, like feedback,
instantaneously, and communicateto your partner.
And you should communicate toyour partner like, ooh, a little
up, a little down, a littleleft, a little right, a little
(30:47):
harder, a little softer, grabthis vibe.
I need more lube.
Yes, that's all great tocommunicate, but also show them.
Show them what you do, showthem how you touch yourself.
Yeah, so, anyway, that's, ifsex is boring or disconnecting,
it's maybe what you're doing,how you're doing it.
It's not sex worth having.
April Snow (31:04):
It's not you necessarily, I think.
A lot of times people think I'mthe problem.
Yeah, but it could besomething's not working and you
can maybe expand what you'redoing, include more.
Caitlin Weber (31:15):
Yeah, I love that People are broken Everybody,
not everybody.
But a lot of people feel broken.
Yeah, people are not broken.
You know, if people truly arelike asexual and truly like
never want to have sex again intheir lives, that's valid, yeah,
and still not broken, notbroken, not broken.
But if you figure out that youwant to have sex, that's worth
(31:35):
having, cool right, always worthseeing a sex therapist.
If you're having sex that isn'tfeeling worth having, and then,
with pain, I really encouragepeople to see you know kind of
the trifecta which is the doctor, the physical therapist and the
mental health therapist.
I know it's a lot and you canstart with whichever, whichever
(31:56):
one you want, but you know thedoctor will rule out skin
conditions or infections orother gynecological or urology
conditions right, urological, Idon't know if that's how you say
that Conditions just to makesure that everything's fine
Physically.
They can also check yourhormones and make sure that your
cardiovascular health is incheck and all that.
(32:18):
And then, once you have the goahead, you know from the doc
then which, by the way, like ifyou are avoiding going to the
gynecologist and I see this allthe time because some people
have a lot of pain with thespeculum.
They have a lot of trauma inmedical settings like that.
Then see the sex therapistfirst.
Okay, you would switch thatorder and then yep, and then we
(32:40):
will help you with that, likehow to advocate for yourself,
how to say I am not ready forthat, or I want the plastic
speculum or I want you need togo slower.
And most gy and mostpsychologists are good, but some
people have complex traumahistories, complex histories
with rape or just pain histories.
So then the pelvic floorphysical therapist is another
(33:02):
huge part of pain healing, forsexual pain.
A lot of people don't even knowyou have a pelvic floor, but
it's the sling of muscles thatholds in your organs.
Otherwise we would just havethings like falling out of
muscles that holds in yourorgans.
Otherwise we would just havethings like falling out of our
butts and our vaginas.
You need the sling of musclesthat are sort of holding in your
organs, but sometimes we havesome dysfunction in those
(33:25):
muscles.
They get too tight, oftentimescertain areas, yes, they can get
weak as well.
So a pelvic floor physicaltherapist will help you figure
out what's too tight and whatneeds some myofascial release
and what needs somestrengthening and how to do it.
Some people don't need anystrengthening, especially with
sexual pain.
April Snow (33:44):
Okay, that's good to know.
I didn't even realize that.
You know I often will sendpeople to the doctor or to a sex
therapist, but having thatthird option the physical
therapist makes a lot of sense.
You're really teaching me a lottoday, and I didn't even know
that you could get a plasticspeculum.
Caitlin Weber (34:03):
Yeah, I know that it's this like medieval, like
metal speculum they bring itwith yes, it's so medieval.
April Snow (34:11):
It's crazy to me that they use that you know, I
know, but even just having adifferent material it's like oh
softens it yeah, yeah, they'resmaller.
Caitlin Weber (34:21):
What's that?
One size fits all.
April Snow (34:22):
They're smaller speculums right, okay, this is
good to know.
So there are ways to findrelief.
If you're uncomfortable orbored or disconnected, there are
things to do.
You don't have to feel stuckthere right, right.
Caitlin Weber (34:39):
Look at what you're doing and see if you want
to incorporate somethingdifferent, something new there's
porn out there that's made byqueer people for queer people,
by women for women.
Not all porn is created equal.
You know, I hate mainstreamporn, just like your next person
, because some of it's very likeableist, racist, misogynist
punishing of women.
(35:00):
A lot of mainstream porn isreally bad and it's also like
these penises that are this bigso they take the analogies of
human genitalia and then they'reall on Viagra and they're all
being fluffed in between takesso they look hard the whole time
.
So I have these young mencoming in going.
You know why am I notperforming like a porn star?
I'm like well, you're notshooting a porn film.
April Snow (35:21):
Right, exactly, it's all altered, yeah exactly yes.
So yeah, we have to have morerealistic expectations.
So you talked about, you knowsome folks may be asexual, but
(35:41):
what if you are justexperiencing a low sex drive?
You're not asexual, but younotice your sex drive is lower.
How can we navigate that?
And I think you've talked abouthow sensitive people often fall
in this category.
Caitlin Weber (35:49):
Yes, yes, yes.
So I'm glad you asked thatbecause I want to normalize
first and foremost that everydyadic relationship, so every
couple, has a higher desirepartner for sex and a lower
desire partner.
So that's normal, that'stypical, it's normal.
So, again, not broken, andthat's the case for, you know,
(36:10):
doing dishes as well or goingout to eat, like there's a
higher desire partner foreverything and lower desire
partner for everything.
Like I'm definitely the lowerdesire partner for frequency of
cleaning in my marriage, likesorry, boo, she's accepted me
for who loves me.
So just figuring out whichthings you desire more often,
which things you desire lessoften.
(36:31):
As a couple, you probably dolots of things together, not
just sex.
You probably go to see familytogether, you probably go to
movies together, maybe, or watchthem, at least you know.
So there's all kinds of areasand when we demystify sex, when
we take it off that pedestal andbring it into real life, into
the real world, then we canexpect realistic things from it,
(36:54):
just like we expect realisticthings from anything else.
So back to the point, if youare the lower desire partner for
sex, oftentimes it's thosethings that I mentioned early on
, like making sure that you'renot stressed to the max, like,
let's say you are in a straightrelationship, let's say you're
the.
If it's a cishet relationship,let's say you're the.
If it's a cishet relationship,let's say you're the wife, the
woman.
Make sure that your partner iscarrying his weight.
(37:17):
Make sure that he's doing asmuch of the housework as you're
doing.
If he's home, just as much asyou are.
And even if he's not, like ifyou're a stay at home mom, you
know your job never ends.
So oftentimes people are justcompletely exhausted and they
have zero capacity left foranything pleasurable at the end
of the night, aside from beingcomatose, like you know.
(37:38):
So that's one thing and theother thing is like making sure
that other.
It's often easier to like liftup on the brakes than it is to
apply more gas.
Meaning, what are your brakes?
This is the dual control modelof sex.
What are your sexual brakes?
What's the dual control modelof sex?
What are your sexual breaks?
What's hitting them?
Is it fear of pregnancy?
Is it fear of STIs?
Is it pain?
(37:59):
Is it your sexual traumatriggers and you need to see a
sex therapist?
Is it that it's not sex worthhaving?
What's hitting your breaks?
So easing up on those breakswill allow you to be willing to
have sex and, by the way,willingness is much more
important than libido.
So that's the receptive modelof desire where I didn't know I
(38:22):
was going to go over, like everyconcept of sex therapy.
April Snow (38:24):
Great, you're hitting all the bases.
Caitlin Weber (38:27):
The receptive model of desire is like first
you're're willing and then yougo and touch yourself and then
you are like into it, and thenyou're aroused and then you feel
desire.
So that's just as normal as itis to feel spontaneously like
horny or wanting to have sex.
In fact, it's much more commonfor kids, teenagers, to feel
(38:49):
spontaneously like desiring sexthan it is for, you know, 30s,
40s, 50s people who are stressedout and exhausted.
April Snow (38:58):
So Okay, so don't expect it just to turn right on.
There's a lead up, as with youwere talking about the rooms,
like build up to it.
Caitlin Weber (39:06):
Yeah, yeah.
And then also you can planahead.
There's the.
My favorite thing is the pencilit in intervention.
So that's not a write it inblood, and you know, write it in
ink.
There's the my favorite thingis the pencil it in intervention
.
So that's not a write it inblood, and you know, write it in
ink, it's write it in pencil.
This is a metaphor, right?
Or you can write it in pencilon your calendar if you have a
physical calendar.
But it's like you know, pencilit into your calendar.
It's there.
(39:26):
You're planning on having sexon Thursday night because it's
Wednesday and tomorrow nightlooks free.
But if tomorrow night rollsaround and you have a migraine,
like please don't force yourself.
April Snow (39:38):
Yeah, it can be flexible.
Caitlin Weber (39:40):
Yeah, be flexible .
It's just like signing up for adance class.
You're not going to go if youare having the worst day of your
life, right?
I hope not.
I hope that you would cry withyour partner then.
Yeah right, you're not going togo.
If you're at each other'sthroats and you know not getting
along in any dimension, then Ihope you go to couples therapy,
(40:01):
right?
Yes, yeah it's like planningahead softly for a future sexual
encounter, but not feeling likeyou have to do it when it rolls
around.
Have to do it when it rollsaround and if you find that you
plan ahead and it's nothappening, it's not happening,
it's not happening, then itmight be that there's too much
on your brakes or it might bethat it's not sex worth having.
April Snow (40:21):
That's a good way to kind of just check yourself,
like are there barriers or issomething else going on, and I
appreciate that putting it onthe counter, because in some
ways it's like, oh, is thatcliche?
But it's like, no, you'reprioritizing it.
Caitlin Weber (40:36):
Yes, yes yes, yeah, and it's not the like.
I don't want your partner tothink the higher desire partner.
They shouldn't and they won'texpect it to absolutely happen.
That's just not.
That's not a consent, that'sthe lack of consent, right?
Yes, so if your partner feelsentitled to sex with you, that's
(40:58):
the patriarchy.
It's usually men, you know.
I mean like I've seen womenfeel entitled to sex with their
partner.
But it's like just because youare with somebody, it doesn't
mean you own them.
It doesn't mean that's what youneed, absolutely.
You are not entitled to have sex.
It's a joint decision.
April Snow (41:10):
Joint decision yes, okay.
So looking at breaks, lookingat bringing in more playfulness,
relaxation, pleasure andreminding yourself that you're
not broken, and if there issomething getting in the way,
reach out for support.
Yes, yeah, yeah, caitlin,you've already shared so much,
(41:36):
but just before we go, I'd loveto hear if there's any final
message that you want to sharewith HSPs, or what it'd be.
Caitlin Weber (41:40):
Oh man, I think my final message would be I love
all my fellow HSPs.
I think that the world needs us.
The world needs people who areoverwhelmed by overwhelming
things to like sit down andthink about them.
I think we sometimes change theworld and we sometimes feel too
much of the weight of the worldon our shoulders.
So, you know, if you have sexworth having, that could be a
(42:03):
vacation from real life for alittle while.
It can be a place where youjust enjoy, right.
So if you take all the culturalcrap and the trauma and all
that, if you're able toexternalize a lot of that stuff
from you through some good work,then hopefully your sex life
will improve and it can be alittle break from all of the
(42:24):
hard work that we do as HSPs.
April Snow (42:26):
Yeah, I love that.
It's like sex is self-care.
Yes, yeah, it really is.
Well, I just really appreciateeverything that you shared today
and if there's folks that wantto reach out for you, I'll share
your website, your social mediaand the show notes.
You offer individual couplestherapy in Wisconsin, or folks
can reach out to you fromanywhere if they are interested
(42:46):
in coaching.
I'm also curious I think youhave some workshops coming up If
you could share a little bitabout that as well.
Caitlin Weber (42:53):
Yeah, yeah, in May I'm teaching therapists how
to talk to their clients aboutsex and actually how to help
with desire, discrepancy for sex, specifically so same as the
topics today, and we'll betalking about embodiment,
mindfulness, basically all thisstuff just more in depth.
So if you're a therapist, feelfree to come.
(43:13):
And then workshops for otherfolks.
I don't have organized quiteyet, but there's a lot of ideas
percolating and I really want tohelp parents learn how to talk
to their kids about sex.
So I'm going to set up one ofthose workshops someday.
April Snow (43:27):
Great, yeah, it sounds like you have a lot of
resources available and more inthe works, which is really
exciting.
Yeah, it sounds like you have alot of resources available and
more in the works, which isreally exciting, wonderful Well,
caitlin, thank you so much fortoday.
Caitlin Weber (43:37):
Thank you so much for having me Really really.
April Snow (43:39):
It was fun.
Caitlin Weber (43:41):
It was really fun .
April Snow (43:47):
Thanks so much for joining me and Caitlin for
today's conversation.
What I hope you remember fromtoday is that sex can be
enjoyable, fun and deeplyconnected, maybe even a form of
self-care, and if it's not,remember that you're not broken,
you just may need a littlesupport To work with Caitlin for
therapy or coaching.
You can visit WeberTherapycomthat's W-E-B-E-R Therapcom or
(44:14):
find more resources in the shownotes.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSB resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
Strengths on Instagram, tiktokand YouTube.
(44:36):
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
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