March 31, 2026 • 49 mins
Do you push your anger away to make others comfortable? In this episode, I talk with Maya Benattar, LCAT about the importance of feeling angry and:
• Pushing against the notion that HSPs should be sweet and keep their emotions hidden
• How to feel your anger safely so it doesn’t become overwhelming
• Making space for anger through music, art, movement, or with your own voice
Maya is a licensed music psychotherapist in private practice in NYC & online across NY, helping highly sensitive women live with less anxiety, access true confidence and finally detach from "I'm not good enough". She relishes explorations around sensitivity, big feelings, inherited family stories, and messy creativity. In addition to her private practice, Maya provides wellness workshops and professional development trainings both online and in-person.
Keep in touch with Maya:
• Website: http://www.mayabenattar.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mayabenattar
Resources Mentioned:
• Why Is Anger So Hard For Me: https://www.mayabenattar.com/blog/why-is-anger-so-hard-for-me
• LCAT Advocacy Coalition: https://www.lcatcoalition.org
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Maya Benattar (00:00):
A lot of that comes up for HSPs in general
because anger was neversomething that they learned how
to actually feel in a way thatfelt grounded and safe and
powerful.
Anger is hard, it's difficultto feel it, to hold it, to
express it in not an explosiveor a dissociated kind of way.
You weren't born believing thatanger was bad.
(00:23):
And some level, in some way,explicitly or implicitly, it was
taught to you that this wasn'tan okay way to be.
April Snow (01:23):
Helping highly sensitive women live with less
anxiety, access true confidence,and finally detach from the I'm
not good enough mindset.
She relishes explorationsaround sensitivity, big
feelings, inherited familystories, and messy creativity.
In addition to her privatepractice, Maya provides wellness
workshops and professionaldevelopment trainings, both
(01:45):
online and in person.
For more HSP resources and tosee behind-the-scenes video from
the podcast, join me onInstagram, TikTok, or YouTube at
Sensitive Strengths, or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestories.com.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
(02:06):
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in thea, welcomeback to the podcast.
(02:33):
So excited to have you.
Yes, thank you so much.
I know you were on beforeepisode 31.
Something I still think about,you said on ramps to softness.
And someone just said that tome last week.
They're like, remember whenMaya said that?
I was like, Yes, it's so good.
I still think about it.
Maya Benattar (02:50):
Oh, I love that.
April Snow (02:51):
Just like, oh yeah, you can just ease into it.
It's important.
So that was something thatreally stuck out.
But today we're gonna be goingin a different direction.
We're gonna talk about anger.
Yeah.
Much needed conversation rightnow in your world.
And I think, especially forHSPs, to create some space that
you know, we don't always haveto be so nice all the time.
(03:11):
So I'm wondering if you're opento starting us off with talking
about your personalrelationship with anger and if
it's changed over the years atall.
Maya Benattar (03:21):
Yeah, I would love to talk about that because
it's actually changed quite abit.
April Snow (03:25):
Yeah.
Maya Benattar (03:25):
Yeah.
And I think the same isprobably true for a lot of
people.
But for many of us who were,you know, born into female
presenting bodies, I was verymuch socialized to not be angry,
to be nice, to be good, all ofthose sort of synonyms for not
angry.
And that followed me for a longtime.
I also, you know, grew up in afamily where cursing was not
(03:47):
generally okay.
Ironically, it was more okay tocurse in Arabic than it was to
curse in English.
I still haven't like totallymade sense of that because it's
still a curse, but you know,some of the Arabic curses I
still don't quite know what theymean.
They're like that bad.
But anyway.
So it took me a long time.
I think I was at least in mymid-20s before I would say fuck
(04:10):
out loud or say damn it orwhatever it is.
Right.
So it was a big process for meof being able to feel that anger
was okay, that I was entitledto it, that it didn't make me
bad or too much or wrong.
So that was a huge shift.
It's a shift that I'm still,you know, living into in my
(04:32):
early 40s, but a significantshift.
And then a few years ago, Iactually started an advocacy
organization in New York forlicensed creative arts
therapists, primarily because Iwas angry.
Anger is useful.
Yeah, anger can be so useful.
And I won't get into the whole,you know, background of that.
(04:52):
It's called the LCAT AdvocacyCoalition.
We are still going.
But essentially, I was angry.
And instead of letting thatlead to a quick spike and then a
collapse, I let the anger, andit just was the right moment in
time in my life.
I don't quite know exactly whatcrystallized it.
(05:13):
Had a couple of colleagues whowere like, yeah, you know, let's
do the thing.
My husband was very supportiveand just was able, I keep making
this motion, I was able to letthe anger move me into action.
And that just felt so fuckingsatisfying.
Yes.
And it doesn't mean that therearen't moments where the energy
(05:34):
goes back down the other way,because of course that happens.
I really learned in particularover the past few years that my
anger is really important, thatmy anger matters.
And it's been an interestingexploration as an HSP, as a
formerly very shy kid, which Ino longer consider myself shy,
(05:54):
but I absolutely consider myselfan HSP and I will be that
forevermore.
It's been really interesting tofind my voice in this new
embodied way.
April Snow (06:05):
Oh, how beautiful that you just let it take up
space.
Right.
And and you're channeling itfor advocacy work, which is
incredible.
Not that you have to do that,but anger is here for a reason.
It has a lot of energy behindit.
So when we shove it down, oh,it's so hard on us.
Yeah.
Maya Benattar (06:24):
Just to erase it.
When we shove it down, myopinion is that when we shove it
down, and this happens with alot of my clients who are HSPs,
the energy doesn't sometimes itmight feel like it disappears,
but it actually just gets likecompressed.
Yep.
And the feeling of compressedenergy is really crappy, in my
opinion.
Like it's just, oh, it's soheavy and stuck, and you know,
(06:47):
that's the knot in your chestand the pit in your stomach, and
the, you know, just the beingkind of whatever the word is for
this, kind of pushed downward.
So compressed.
Compressed, thank you.
The energy doesn't actually goanywhere, usually.
It just gets redirected andmade smaller.
And it deserves to take upspace.
April Snow (07:09):
Yeah, it really does.
And you're right, it doesn'tactually go away, it just shows
up in other forms.
Yeah.
And it could be physicalsymptoms.
I have clients where it's likea pressure cooker and they just
it takes over after years andyears and years of repression.
It wants to come out somewhere.
Maya Benattar (07:25):
Yeah.
April Snow (07:26):
Right.
And maybe we can be more incontrol of that.
Maya Benattar (07:29):
And that's the tricky thing.
You know, I have been thinkingabout talking about anger as it
relates to working with HSPs fora couple of years.
And there's usually one of twothings happen.
Of course, there's also usuallya third, but always it always.
But for HSPs, either they neverget angry.
And I don't believe that thatmeans they don't actually feel
(07:51):
anger, but they never letthemselves express it in a way
that feels, you know, completeand satisfying and safe.
And there's any number ofreasons why that might be
happening.
Or they are angry all the time,which then sort of feeds into
I'm too angry, I'm too much, I'mnot being good, all of that
(08:14):
narrative, which just comes up alot of that comes up for HSPs
in general, because anger wasnever something that they
learned how to actually feel ina way, again, that felt grounded
and safe and powerful.
And there's so many reasons,and I this is reminding me of a
blog post I wrote some yearsback about anger and why it
(08:34):
might be hard to feel it.
And there's so many reasons whyanger is hard.
I think not only for HSPs, butthat's the bulk of the work that
I do, but just for people ingeneral, why it's difficult to
feel it, to hold it, to expressit in not an explosive or
dissociated kind of way.
April Snow (08:53):
Right, where you're not just erasing it or
pretending it doesn't exist orjust letting it take over.
So you said it's hard for HSPsto feel anger.
And it gets a bad reputation.
Like, oh, we're supposed to bethe nice, soft, good, you know,
nice ones.
And why aren't we allowed to bemore angry as HSPs?
Maya Benattar (09:13):
I mean, I think a lot of this really overlaps
with just societal views aboutanger in general.
Yep, for sure.
I think we need to I lovereally naming that so explicitly
the last couple of yearsbecause it's just so fucking
true.
Like, and especially, like Isaid, especially for those of us
born in female presentingbodies, like this sense of like
(09:34):
it's not okay to be angry.
Yes.
Or, you know, all the rhetoricaround women being too angry or
too loud or too shrill orwhatever.
So I think it really startswith where, and that sort of
language happens in familiestoo.
You know, absolutely.
So for people who feel like,oh, it's not okay to be angry,
(09:55):
when I'm working with them intherapy, I always start with,
well, where did you hear that?
Yeah, where did that actuallycome from?
Because I've said to people,I'm not accepting that as like
sort of a blanket statement.
Like, yeah, anger may be hardfor you, anger may be tricky,
that's legit.
But to paint with a broad brushand say anger is bad, yes, I
(10:17):
don't know.
April Snow (10:18):
Yeah, it's not so absolute, right?
Maya Benattar (10:20):
It really never is, I think.
April Snow (10:23):
Yeah.
And looking at, yeah, where didyou learn that message?
Yeah, and let's push back onit.
Maya Benattar (10:28):
Yeah.
And so that's my thing.
That's my thing.
My one of my things the pastcouple of years is like that
gentle pushback of like, okay.
And sometimes I've had peoplesay, no, well, that's coming
from inside.
I'm like, well, any messagethat comes from inside started
from outside and got integrated,like with anything else, right?
Like with any other beliefs.
Like you didn't, you weren'tborn believing that anger was
(10:51):
bad.
Exactly.
You know, like on some level,in some way, explicitly or
implicitly, it was taught to youthat this wasn't an okay way to
be.
So, and it sometimes it mightbe as relatively simple as
experiencing others' anger andnot being protected from that,
right?
And there's a whole lot tounpack there.
(11:12):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
But for a lot of us, thesocietal messaging is just the
gendered messaging, is just sohuge and it's so pervasive.
So really beginning to unpackthat.
Yeah.
And to unpack what it means tobe angry.
Like, does anger like I'vecursed a couple of times and I
(11:34):
enjoy being able to curse?
There's research about howactually cursing is like better
for you than holding it in.
I'm blanking on the name of thebook, but it was a few years
back.
April Snow (11:42):
That makes sense.
Yeah.
You can be more in tune withwhat you're feeling.
It's more expressive.
Yeah.
Maya Benattar (11:49):
Right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
So, like I was saying before,there are so many reasons why
anger is so difficult for HSPs.
And I think figuring that out,it isn't so simple as like, here
are the five bullet points,because you know, we're all
complex beings in so many ways.
But I often start with, well,where do you think you learned
that?
What's your earliest memory ofbeing told that?
(12:12):
Or sometimes it's not aboutbeing told don't be angry, but
being told be good or be nice orbe compliant, you know, which
is a word that's been coming upa lot lately in the news, right?
And so what's missing fromthose words is anger, but the
implication is still there.
Right.
It's so, so implicit and it'sso implicit for women.
(12:33):
So I think being able to beeven just a little bit curious,
and like I was saying before, ifclients are struggling with how
to be curious about that, thenI have no problem being
explicitly curious for them,with them, of you know, where
did you first hear that?
Or this is what I'm hearing.
And I wonder if that makessense.
(12:54):
And yeah, and so then alsounpacking the belief that anger
is inherently bad, right?
That cursing is bad, or that italways looks one way.
I think that there's a lot of,you know, especially if you grew
up in a family that did angerone specific way, then you got
(13:15):
used to, because we adapt, yougot used to anger looking one
specific way.
And so this idea that anger canlook so many different ways,
right?
You can be angry withoutcursing.
Just because I've been cursingdoesn't mean that's the one way
to do anger, right?
You can feel anger in yourbody, you can express anger in
your words, it can be in yourart, it can be in your music,
(13:36):
right?
Like there are so manydifferent sort of containers for
anger.
Yeah, it doesn't have to bephysical, it doesn't have to be
violent, it doesn't have to beexplosive, right?
It can be this sort ofundercurrent, right?
Like as opposed to now, I'mthinking of a river, right?
The sort of the energy of ariver, maybe after the spring
(13:57):
thaw, if you live where there'sa spring thaw, like it's
flowing, there's movement, butit's not, you know, an ocean
wave that takes you under,right?
It's more consistent andsteady, right?
So anger can look so manydifferent ways and it'll shift.
We were saying this before,like day to day, moment to
(14:18):
moment, season to season.
It doesn't have to be static.
April Snow (14:22):
It's a helpful reminder that anger, especially
when you're allowing it to movethrough regularly, it can be a
lot lighter, it can be morefluid, it could even maybe be
creative, or as you know, you'rechanneling anger into advocacy
work.
So it could be resourcing.
There's just so many ways itshows up.
And we usually think of it asviolence, you know, verbally
(14:45):
aggressive.
And it can be some of that too,but there's so many more
opportunities for anger to comethrough.
Maya Benattar (14:51):
Yeah.
April Snow (14:51):
Yeah, it's a good reminder to hear that.
Like anger looks many differentways.
So however you express it,beautiful.
Maya Benattar (14:58):
And I think, you know, the important just to
piggyback on that, I think oneof the really important things
about expressing it is figuringout how to express it in a way
that feels safe.
Right.
So I have a lot of clients, andI felt this myself for a long
time.
I have a lot of clients whofeel, well, if I go near that,
I'm gonna get lost in it.
I'm gonna go down the rabbithole of it, I'm gonna drown in
(15:19):
it.
It's a lot of imagery there.
And so part of the work that wedo is figuring out the
titration of it, right?
Like what amount of anger istolerable?
You don't have to love it.
It doesn't have to be yourfavorite, at least not right
from the jump.
But like, what amount istolerable?
And the way that I work as acreative arts therapist is that
I'm in it with them, right?
(15:39):
I'm not just sitting there andsaying, tell me about your
anger, but like, hey, if youdraw it, I'll play it.
Or can we play it together?
Or these are like recordedmusic options that are somewhere
in the vicinity of anger.
Do any of these feel you know,connected for you?
So I'm really in it with them.
And I can only do that becauseI've done so much of my own work
(16:01):
around anger.
April Snow (16:02):
Well, you're really joining with, yeah, which is so
healing when you've been toldyour anger is bad, you need to
hide it away.
It's like, no, let me see it,let me be in it with you.
Maya Benattar (16:15):
It's so validating.
I have so many clients who weretold as kids, even as adults,
like, if you're gonna be angry,go in your room, close the door,
or their parents would ignorethem or shame them for just for
being angry about like regularkid things.
Like, we're not even talkinglike you know, explosive anger.
I'm like for just havingfeelings.
(16:37):
And so it's so different forthem, and they'll often name
this.
It's so different for them thatI'm like, hey, you're angry.
Yeah, you're fucking angry.
Of course you're angry.
What music did you listen to asa kid when you were alone with
your anger?
Which is so powerful.
And then can we listen to thattogether?
And sometimes just that is sohealing, right?
(16:59):
Because that was a resourcethat they used.
But then to have that be ashared experience as opposed to
a solitary one really can shiftthings, and it's a really
powerful place to start from.
April Snow (17:10):
Yeah, I could see doing that even with a friend or
a spouse or a loved one.
Like, hey, I'm feeling prettyangry right now.
Will you listen to this songwith me?
Yeah.
Let's join together.
Maya Benattar (17:22):
Yeah.
I mean, it's a way that I movemyself through.
Like, I'll, you know, literallythis morning, I was really
angry.
It was a combination of things.
It was what's going on inMinnesota and something that was
happening in the advocacy workand something else I can't
really remember right now.
And I was really angry.
And so a few years ago, myinclination might have been to
just to like temper.
(17:44):
To temper.
And I had the time.
This wasn't a client day forme.
So I was like, you know what?
I'm angry right now.
April Snow (17:51):
Yeah.
Maya Benattar (17:52):
And I need to feel that.
And so I put on oh man, SevenNation Army by the white
stripes.
Oh, that's a good one.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I just looped that.
I did a little bit of imagingon the page with some oil
pastels, right?
And so I'll choose artmaterials intentionally, and
those like let me like reallyfeel the paper.
(18:13):
And and then after that wasenough, like I put the image
aside.
I'm like, I kind of want tokeep listening to this.
And I looped it.
I was answering emails.
I was, you know, using mystanding desk.
So I was moving, which isreally important for me.
And after maybe like 20, 25minutes, I was like, I think I'm
done with the song.
And and that was a really clearknowing, right?
(18:34):
So I gave myself thepermission.
Like, I know that song, right?
It wasn't brand new to me.
I think a lot of us know thatsong.
And it is pretty containing.
So thinking about like thestructure of it, right?
That that bass, those drums,like it's pretty containing.
It's not, I wouldn't considerit especially chaotic.
Um, you know, it's at leastpretty predictable.
Yeah.
That will also change day today.
(18:55):
If I listen to it tomorrow, Imight be like, oh my God, so
much.
Right.
But it matched your mood today.
It matched.
It was, it was close enough andit matched.
I don't break my head and Iencourage my clients not to
break their heads trying to findthe perfect piece of music.
I don't think that exists.
Yep.
You know, it's not aboutperfection, it's just about good
enough, right?
Which I think is something thatall therapists say in one way
(19:16):
or another.
And so when I was done withthat piece, I moved on to
something else.
I was clear in my just in myintuition that I still needed
something with energy to it.
April Snow (19:28):
Makes sense.
Maya Benattar (19:28):
You're not going to drop down too far.
Right.
Yeah.
But sometimes we have thatinclination of like, oh, okay, I
got to move from there tothere.
And it's like, you're not alight switch.
I say this to my clients a lot.
Like, you are not a lightswitch, you know, a regular
light switch that toggles on andoff.
And because often they feel thepressure of like, I have to be
angry or calm or happy or, youknow, just these binaries.
April Snow (19:50):
Yeah, bring in some gray, some transition space.
Maya Benattar (19:54):
I talk, I we were talking before you and I about
like dimmer switches.
And I actually use that imageryall the time with clients of
like, what would 10% less looklike?
And when I'm working withpeople in person, my office has
a dimmer switch, thank goodness,as an HSP.
And so I'll like point to it,or I've literally drawn it for
people when working virtually,or I've been like, Do you have a
dimmer switch?
(20:14):
I mean, everyone pretty muchknows what a dimmer switch is.
But just that idea of like theshades of gray, the nuance, the
okay, my anger was at a 10.
And after listening to thatsong, I just felt like a seven
and a half.
Yeah.
And that was more tolerable.
I wasn't like, you know,vibrating anymore.
And so I shifted the music Iwas listening to.
(20:35):
And I actually kept shiftingfor a few hours after that.
And so before we got on, I'dshifted my way all the way down
to like a Paul Simon track.
Okay.
If I had put on a Paul Simontrack this morning, it wouldn't
have even registered.
Right.
So it is, and in music therapylanguage and in other languages
(20:55):
called the ISO principle, thatyou meet yourself where you are
and then you move graduallytowards where you want to be.
That makes sense.
And some music therapists whowork, let's say in the hospital
with someone who's really havinga lot of anxiety or a lot of
pain, if you come in from thejump with like the most
beautiful, calm music, it's notgonna register.
It's not gonna meet them wherethey are.
(21:16):
No.
And we all deserve that, right?
Whatever the situation is, wedeserve to be met and held where
we are.
And then to, you know, to begradually moved to somewhere
else with that support and withthat gentleness, but also a firm
container, right?
And music can do that sobeautifully.
April Snow (21:34):
Well, and it's like how you will talk about how when
you're anxious, sitting inmeditation does not work.
It's too same principle.
Yeah, right.
It's too far away from whereyou are, and you're trying to
put a you know a square peg in around hole.
It doesn't exactly.
Same if you're trying to listento Paul Simon when you really
need to listen to White Stripesor something even more intense,
(21:56):
just matching your energy.
So it sounds like Know thismorning you talked about
completing the anger.
So is that kind of what thatmeans?
Of I'm letting the angerexpress, I'm kind of moving
through, I'm giving it space toexist.
Maya Benattar (22:12):
Yeah.
I mean, it felt like acompletion for the moment.
It doesn't yeah, like itdoesn't obviously mean that I'm
done with anger forever.
Right.
I don't even know what thatmeans.
But like that current iterationhad been felt and integrated
and moved through.
And you know, me of 10 yearsago might have very well put on
Paul Simon.
(22:33):
No, no shade to Paul Simon.
I love his music.
Might have very well put onPaul Simon and said, okay, Maya
Brie.
Don't need to be angry.
It's not a big deal.
Like all of those messages thatI'm sure we've all said to
ourselves or heard from otherpeople, like Justin Brown, like
all of that.
It's like, no, I was I wasangry.
April Snow (22:52):
Yeah, and hearing calm down is so infuriating.
I know, I know.
Maya Benattar (22:56):
I tossed it in because like I'm sure everyone
listening has probably I thinkwe've all heard that at one
point or another.
And it's like it's not helpful.
No, it is yeah, it's justreally not helpful.
I had another word, but that'sreally the gist of it.
No, it's invalidating.
It's invalidating.
Thank you, customer.
It's invalidating, it'sunhelpful.
It doesn't actually hear ormeet the moment.
April Snow (23:20):
No.
Maya Benattar (23:20):
Right.
And I think this moment thatwe're living in, I want to like
be explicit about this moment,yeah.
It is January 14th.
You know, we're in the US.
This moment that we're livingin is a moment of collective
trauma.
And it's been, you know, wecould also say we've been living
in moments of collective traumafor a long time now.
Very long.
(23:40):
And what we don't need inmoments of collective trauma is
only the calming down.
April Snow (23:46):
Like oh, yeah.
That's the opposite of what weneed.
It's like pulling the wool overand think saying, this isn't
happening.
Maya Benattar (23:53):
Right.
April Snow (23:53):
Right.
People aren't suffering.
Maya Benattar (23:55):
Right.
April Snow (23:56):
People aren't scared.
Yeah.
Maya Benattar (23:58):
And so we need to be able to feel that anger
again, ideally in a way thatfeels safe and grounded, right?
Like I it would not have feltgrounding for me if I had run
out the front door and like gonefor a sprint.
I'm also not a runner, but youknow.
Um, some people that is theticket for them, right?
Going for a run is just thething they need.
(24:21):
So knowing like what works foryou or having a menu sort of to
choose from is really helpful, Ifind.
April Snow (24:29):
Yeah.
And I'm glad you brought thatsafety piece back because that
is such an important part of theprocess.
Maya Benattar (24:34):
Yeah.
April Snow (24:34):
I'm wondering if we could share for listeners what
might be some unsafe things toexpress anger.
It sounds like if it's notaligned for you, maybe it's
something that you wouldn'tnormally gravitate towards, or
if it's not matching the momentof your emotional state, like if
you're trying to force yourselfinto a calm space.
Yeah, if we could just sharewith what that might look like.
(24:55):
What would be an unsafe way tobe in anger?
Maya Benattar (25:00):
So, like so many things, like this will vary
person to person.
So all of this comes with likea giant caveat, right?
Yep.
I think that generallyspeaking, I will urge clients
not to try to express anger in away that is inflicting physical
harm on their own bodies.
Yep.
And there's a differencebetween, you know, pinching your
(25:22):
arm and punching a pillow,right?
The pillow is external.
Your arm is internal.
But you know, we don't need tosplit hairs, like, sure, it's on
the outside, but you get whatI'm saying.
I get what you mean.
Yeah.
So because sometimes I've hadthat happen with clients who are
adults where like they neverlearned, they were never taught,
it was never a model for themthat like, hey, put on the
(25:42):
headphones or hey, go for a walkor squeeze a pillow.
So they do end up doing a bitof self-harm.
Not even to the point of likecutting or anything like that,
but just you know, hittingthemselves on the head or
something like that.
Because it's the only releasethat they know.
So I do try to encourageclients of like, let's just
expand the possibilities.
(26:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, right.
Without shaming, right?
Like, of course, that's thatwas all that was available.
Yeah, it makes sense thatthat's what you gravitate
towards.
Or like, even something like,you know, I'm a jog huncher
myself, but some people will,that's what they'll
intentionally go to.
And it's like, oh, that thathurts.
Like, I personally know likehow much that fucking hurts.
(26:25):
Yes.
You know.
So generally speaking, I thinkum building out, like, you know,
I'm biased as a musictherapist.
Like, I have people build outplaylists and we do it, yeah,
like having an anger playlistand building it out ideally when
you're feeling fine.
Like I knew this morning thatsong, Seven Nation Army, um,
(26:46):
that that would probably workfor me.
Yeah.
I've listened to it before,I've moved to it before, I've
imaged to it before.
So having even just like twosongs that you know, I think for
me it's lately it's that oneand a nirvana song.
Oh, always good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, so like having a couple ofgo-to songs, physical movement,
I find.
Like because we were sayingbefore, like oftentimes the
(27:10):
inclination to just like tamp itdown is really strong.
And we might not always like, Iwas lucky today.
I'm gonna name that I was luckyand privileged today to be
home, be in my space, and beable to move.
You know, if I'm in my officeand I'm between clients, I might
have two minutes.
Right.
So that's when I do somethinglike energetic sweeping or
(27:31):
literally jumping up and downsometimes, or pushing into the
wall really hard, like reallyactivating all of my arm
muscles.
Really simple somatic stufflike that actually can really
make a difference.
April Snow (27:44):
Oh, it really does.
Just to engage your body inthat emotion is even if you only
have a minute or two, it'sbetter than pushing it.
Maya Benattar (27:53):
Totally.
And it's the pendulating in andout, right?
So it's not about like youknow, pushing on the wall for 10
minutes without any reprieve.
Like you're just gonna end upwith a sore arm and a sore
shoulder, probably.
But like the pushing, this iseither from S E or S P, I never
remember, but like pushing inand then you release.
Yes.
Push in and then you release,right?
So like to feel the pendulatingin and out.
(28:16):
That's safety, right?
To know I can feel this, I canmove away from it.
Yeah.
Feel it, I can move away fromit.
Right.
Right.
And so to have that sense ofagency with your anger, that
also changes the internalnarrative around like this is
just something I have to, youknow, race and get through, or
(28:38):
something that happens around meor to me, right?
To be able to go in, to go out.
April Snow (28:43):
Yes.
Such a good reminder that youwon't be trapped in the anger.
So a lot of people I work with,they're so scared of their
anger.
Yeah.
They've been told it was wrong,that they're just an angry
person, that it's something youneed to get rid of, that people
don't like them when they'reangry.
Yeah.
So yeah, it's just a goodreminder.
Oh, this is a temporary state.
(29:04):
It'll come and go forever foryour whole life.
I mean, we have endless thingsto be angry about right now, as
always.
So it's not going away, but wecan move in and out of it, and
we're not stuck.
Maya Benattar (29:17):
Yeah.
It's the stuckness that wefear.
And that's such a humaninclination, right?
To fear being stuck.
No one wants to be stuck.
It's a really shitty feeling.
But to have those experiences,and I think that's why you know
therapy can be so reparative,those experiences of okay, just
a little bit, right?
And sometimes I'll have clientslike, can you draw the anger?
(29:38):
Right.
So then it's already gettingexternalized because when it's
internal and you don't eitherhave language for it or a safe
experience of it, it'soverwhelming, right?
Yes, it is.
So you see them sometimes justlike, can you draw it?
Okay, what's it like to see it?
Right?
Like the shape that it has, thecolors that you chose.
And then where do you choose?
(30:00):
You know, you can put itsomewhere else, which like
intellectually we know thispiece of paper is mobile and it
can go places, but it's sopowerful to feel like, oh, I can
put my anger on the other sideof the office.
I've had people like hide angerall over my office when I'm in
a person.
Or the anger gets, you know, tosit next to one of the stuffies
(30:21):
and the stuffy's keeping theanger company so they can take a
pause from right.
Like again, just so manydifferent experiences.
So when you've had like prettylimited or repetitive
experiences of anger to sort ofwiden the capacity of like, oh,
I can draw it, I can crumple itup.
You know, I've even had peoplelike hand me their image, like,
(30:42):
can you hold it?
I'm like, Yeah, I can hold it.
It's fine.
I'm just put it right here onmy lap or right next to me.
There's infinite possibilities.
There really are.
April Snow (30:51):
I love that.
It's like again, joining withand taking some of that weight
off, like, okay, you're not inthis alone.
And you may have been when youwere younger, smaller, yeah, but
not now.
Yeah.
So this is starting to bring itout.
And I love putting it on thepage.
Maya Benattar (31:06):
Yeah.
April Snow (31:07):
It's so good.
Like, oh, this is what it lookslike.
And also, I'm getting it out ofmyself.
Maya Benattar (31:13):
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, catharsis, look, thedesire for catharsis is legit,
right?
So, but I think when we letanger be just catharsis, it can
also be overwhelming.
Right.
And that's kind of the flipside.
So I have a lot of clients whodon't feel able to express anger
for, like I said, any number ofreasons.
(31:34):
And then those that come in, alot of HSP clients, you know, in
recent times will say, I'm tooangry, too angry, or I'm angry
all the time and I'm overwhelmedby it.
Yeah.
Right.
So to be able to sort of figureout again that gray space of
like, can I feel just a littlebit of it?
Or can I feel my anger, butwithout it being purely an
(31:56):
exercise and catharsis?
And that takes someexploration, right?
Because we want to just likeget it out.
Oh yeah.
But there's more waiting behindit.
Right.
There's more, there's alwaysmore waiting behind it.
But if our focus is just ongetting it out, right, which is
why, you know, I didn't listento the white stripes for six
hours straight.
You know, if our focus is juston letting it out, it then
(32:20):
becomes, for lack of a betterphrase, like, you know, you
vomit it all up and you feelbetter when you have a stomach.
It's probably not the end ofthe stomach bug, right?
This may not be a metaphor.
But I think it's reallyimportant to feel, okay, I don't
have to go all the way to theend to feel relief or to feel in
control or to feel better,right?
(32:40):
Because catharsis is lookingfor that relief and you deserve
that relief, but catharsis somany times will take you out of
your window of tolerance, right?
You say all the things, youvent, you dump.
You haven't actually learnedhow to experience anger in a way
that feels productive, thatfeels safe, that feels
(33:01):
mobilizing.
Right.
And the reality is we all needa good vent sometimes.
I, you know, like I'm alsofeeling like if that's the only
way that you experience anger,there's limitations on it.
April Snow (33:13):
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
Like you're turning the lightdown too quickly, kind of
throwing yourself into it.
Yeah, because you have totitrate, you have to take a
little bit at a time or you getthat explosion.
Maya Benattar (33:24):
Yeah.
April Snow (33:25):
I'm just thinking of like a chemical reaction.
Maya Benattar (33:27):
Yeah, I mean, pretty much, right?
April Snow (33:30):
Right.
So we have to then I love thatyou said that relief.
You don't have to get to theend to have relief.
Like you today you said, oh, Iwent from maybe a 10 to a seven.
I forget exactly how you saidthat.
But like, oh, I'm just slowlydown shifting a little bit at a
time, and that's relieving too.
Yeah.
And it gives us a chance tolearn about our anger.
Maya Benattar (33:50):
Yeah.
April Snow (33:50):
So what is possible when we're moving slowly?
Are we building relationshipsto anger?
Are we learning how to workwith it?
All of it.
I think all of that.
Maya Benattar (34:00):
I think, you know, I see like the building a
different relationship to anger,that's really the fundamental
piece.
Yeah.
Right.
That anger can be an allyinstead of an enemy.
Right.
Like that is, yeah, that is so,that's just so important.
I think a lot of times, again,for any number of reasons,
people have learned that angeris the enemy.
(34:22):
And so what if, and sometimesthat's really valid, right?
If they've had experiences ofbeing literally unsafe.
I'm not here to take that awayfrom anyone, but what if anger
could be an ally, like what Ishared with the advocacy work
that I do got started.
The anger was like this drivingforce that was pushing me
forward.
(34:43):
Yeah.
Right.
And there have been momentswhere I've been overwhelmed, I'm
not gonna lie.
But it feels better to be doingsomething than to not.
April Snow (34:54):
Yeah, the action feels good.
Maya Benattar (34:55):
Yeah, right.
April Snow (34:57):
Anger wants to be moving.
Maya Benattar (35:00):
And also like anger is telling us something
really important, right?
Like it is giving us so muchinformation.
It is, you know, if you thinkin part, it is a part, it is a
voice, whatever the language youuse is that that wants to be
heard, that deserves to beheard, right?
And oftentimes, most of thetime, it is saying, This is not
(35:22):
okay.
Yes, right?
Some version of that saying,this is not okay.
I do not feel okay about this.
April Snow (35:30):
Yes, it is an ally, it's helping you stay safe.
Yeah, ultimately.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's important to listen toit.
Maya Benattar (35:39):
Yeah, for sure.
April Snow (35:40):
Mm-hmm and make space for it.
Yeah, that brings up a listenerquestion, which is let's say
you are noticing something's notokay, you're getting angry, but
then people are trying to pushyou around and maybe try to
control your experience.
How can we stand up forourselves?
Obviously, we're hopefullyexpressing it with ourselves,
but is there a way to channelthat anger towards others in
(36:04):
relationship where we can startto communicate the anger?
Maya Benattar (36:08):
Yeah, this happens so often, right?
Especially I find this withclients when they start to feel
more connected to their anger,people in their lives are like,
wait a minute, you this is newand I don't like this, right?
Or some version of that.
There's so many thoughts that Ihave when I see what this is a
big question.
Yeah, it's a big question.
And it does, you know, I thinkthe answer is different
depending on the context, right?
(36:28):
Like, is someone pushing backon you in a text message when
you have a moment to yourself tokind of collect yourself versus
face to face, right?
Like, so I think the momentswhen it's happening not in real
time, whether let's say a text.
And I think that's a moment toactually step away and to come
back into your body, whateverthat looks like for you, right?
(36:51):
So whether it's a song, whetherit's movement, whether it's,
you know, going to hug your dog,that's a big one for me.
Shout out to Willis.
April Snow (37:00):
Yes.
Maya Benattar (37:02):
You know, that is like giving yourself that break
because what can often happen,and especially in the world we
live in where like thenotifications are going off all
the time and there is thispressure.
Like I live my life with myphone mostly on DD because I'm
like, I'm not available, even ifI might be available.
Yeah.
So like giving yourself thatbreak of like they're pushing
back on my anger.
(37:22):
I don't need to respond rightnow.
Yes.
I can, you know, put my phonedown and go into the other room
for five minutes and nothing,that's fine.
Like, that's not a big deal.
Yeah.
So refining that anger, becauseusually what I find happens in
those moments is either youcollapse internally or it's like
you turn the flames up to 10.
(37:44):
And you probably don't want torespond from either of those
places, ideally.
Right.
So, like figuring out, like,okay, how do I either need to re
find my body?
Like, I even just did it now,like, where's my spine?
Right.
Because when we collapse, wekind of do this.
That's true.
Yeah.
You know, it might be moresubtle than that.
We don't always like end upcurling up into a ball, but it's
(38:07):
some version of that.
So, like, where's my shoulders?
Where's my spine?
Can I am I aware of the back ofmy body or am I just collapsing
forward?
Which is a really instinctualthing to do, right?
To like literally protect ourmost vulnerable parts.
So that's if like it'shappening not in real time and
you can take some time.
I think if it's happening inreal time, where like let's say
(38:29):
you're having a conversationwith someone, and this is
trickier, of course.
You're having a conversationwith someone and you're
expressing anger and they'repushing back on it.
April Snow (38:38):
Yeah.
Maya Benattar (38:39):
It's a different version of where is my body,
right?
So, you know, are you aware ofyour feet?
Like that's a big one for me.
Not be calm.
I think sometimes when we'relike be in your body, there's
the okay, I'm gonna be calm.
It's really hard to be calmwhile you're experiencing
someone either be angry at youor push back.
(39:00):
So where are your feet?
Right.
And then any number of options,including, you know, hey, can
we take a break?
Or I need five minutes, or I'ma big proponent of the little
white lies.
And I absolutely say this toclients.
Yeah, you know, like, say youneed to use the restroom when
you don't use the restroom, or Ithink I hear my phone ringing,
(39:23):
or the dog is barking.
Or I mean, I guess you can'tpretend that the dog is barking
when they're not, but you getthe idea, right?
Like just if you need to removeyourself, remove yourself.
April Snow (39:33):
Yes, find whatever way you can to do that.
Maya Benattar (39:36):
Yeah.
April Snow (39:36):
For safety.
Maya Benattar (39:37):
Yeah, 100%.
And so there's really justthere's a permission in that of
like you do not have to braceand make it through, right?
Those of us who have hadoverwhelming experiences of
anger probably are used to justlike we brace until it's done.
Yep, get through it.
And that's a really, you know,that's a learned behavior.
(39:58):
And it may have kept you reallysafe in many scenarios, right?
I'm not here to say like that'snot the way to do it, but this
is about exploring what are someother options, right?
If you're having like a bigblowout fight with your mom in
the kitchen, mom, I need abreath of fresh air, right?
Like I'm gonna walk around theblock, I'll be back in five
(40:20):
minutes.
April Snow (40:21):
Break that cycle.
Maya Benattar (40:22):
Right.
Yeah, because a lot of anger,especially with people who we
know, it runs in cycles, right?
Like you say something, theysay something, and then right,
back and forth.
Yeah.
So if possible, giving yourselfthat break.
If that isn't possible, or ifit happens so fast that
afterwards you're like, wait,what the hell happened?
I think being able to reflect,right?
(40:45):
As opposed to like, oh fuck, Idid it again, or this is never
gonna change.
Like when you're able, like itis helpful, I find, to reflect
afterwards, even if it didn't gothe way you want it to, which
happens all the time, right?
And being able to ideallyreflect with as much kindness
towards yourself as possible,right?
Because working on your angeris not going to be helped by
(41:09):
being angry at yourself.
Right.
Just gonna feed it.
Yeah.
And a lot of us HSPs can bereally self-critical.
I have that capacity as well.
And so it could be really easyto spin into the, oh, I fucked
up, oh, I did this wrong.
Why don't I ever learn?
That just, and even as I'msaying these things, and I'm not
even angry right now, I'm justI can feel the like, uh, it's so
(41:32):
heavy.
April Snow (41:33):
It's so heavy.
You just beat yourself down.
Yeah.
Instead of just making spacefor the anger.
And like, I'm a human withemotions, and it's hard to
figure things out in the moment,especially as an HSP.
When we need time to process,you don't always get to do that
real time.
Maya Benattar (41:48):
And there's something to be said also for
like in the reflection after oflike, what would you have wanted
it to feel like?
Yeah.
You know, it this isn't anideal world that we're not
shooting for perfection, butcould you imagine that scenario,
whatever the details were,feeling a little different?
Right.
It's the imagining somethingdifferent, I think, that is so
(42:10):
important because we can getreally stuck in the loop of like
this is what always happens.
And so I'll do that withclients sometimes when they come
in, they're like, and this andthis.
And like, okay, could youimagine this having gone a
different way?
Even if it feels we don't haveto figure out the how right now,
like we can get really stuck inthat.
I think a lot of us in alsohave that capacity.
How am I gonna do the thingthat I want to have happen?
(42:33):
But if we can hang out with thewhat do you imagine it would
look like, feel like, sound likeif it was different, that's
important sort of repatterningfor your nervous system as well.
That's an opportunity to find asong or to draw it, or what did
you want this to feel like?
Because that's also reallyvalidating of like, oh, yeah, I
(42:55):
this isn't what happened, but mydesire for this different
experience matters.
And I can have a little snippetof that experience now.
April Snow (43:05):
Yes, already changing the narrative, yeah.
Getting to try it on and thengetting to talk to yourself
differently, yeah, surroundingthe emotion.
Maya Benattar (43:15):
It's also a way to, you know, if you're doing it
in hindsight, it's a way toexperience it and kind of store
that internally for the nexttime, right?
Because when we're in the heatof the moment, whatever the
moment is, if we haven'texperienced the thing, right?
If we haven't learned, whetherit's anxiety or anger or
(43:35):
whatever, if we haven't learnedhow to do the thing that we're
wanting to do, if we haven'tlearned it out of the moment,
you're probably not going tolearn it in the moment, which is
why people saying just calmdown is so inherently unhelpful.
Yes.
Exactly.
So being able to play aroundwith it outside of the heat of
the moment, right?
Is just sort of have a littlebit of practice.
(43:58):
It's like anger practice.
April Snow (44:00):
You know, yeah, exactly.
Just like you're making yourplaylists out of the moment.
Yeah, try on some differentthings in your mind.
So you then you'll have that inthe background next time.
Maya Benattar (44:10):
Or you know, I'm a huge proponent of like trying
it on before you need it, justin general, whether it's anger
or something else.
But like if you haven't triedit beforehand, you're not gonna
have access to it in the heat ofthe moment.
In the heat of the moment, youknow, if I'm really pissed, I'm
not gonna be able to tell youanything, you know, like it's
(44:32):
just not happening.
But I know where my phone isand I know, you know, usually,
and I know, you know, how tofind music on it.
And I so it's a way to reallycare for future you're like, I'm
gonna practice this now so thatI have it when I need it.
It's like taking your vitamins.
April Snow (44:48):
Yeah, exactly.
I obviously we're talking aboutkind of a post-angering
situation, but if you want towork with your anger, could you
reverse engineer where maybe youput the anger playlist on and
you're letting your body move,whether it's through art or
somatic practices, and thenmaybe you tap into some anger
just to start to buildrelationships.
(45:08):
Is that possible?
Maya Benattar (45:10):
I think so.
I think because ultimately thisis about, like you were saying
before, this is about building adifferent relationship to
anger.
Right.
Right.
So a lot of times doing thatneeds to happen when you're not
actually angry.
Right.
Yeah.
And that runs so contrary towhat a lot of people believe.
And honestly, what a lot ofpeople believe about processing
(45:31):
this stuff in therapy.
Well, I'm not angry right now,I'm fine.
Right.
How many times have we heardthat?
Right.
I'm like, I'm like, amazing.
You're fine.
What in the grand scheme of Idon't think I actually talk like
this, but like, what needs someattention that isn't front and
center for you right now?
Right.
So I often will do work withpeople around anger, around
(45:53):
anxiety when they're feelingfine.
Because when you're feelingfine, you're a little more
resourced.
Exactly.
That's the time to do the work.
That actually is, right?
And oftentimes, look, everytime do you have to do the work
and you feel fine?
No, sometimes just fuckingenjoy feeling fine and you know,
love it.
But sometimes that's really anopportunity that we often will
miss.
April Snow (46:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I'm appreciating thisinvitation to be in relationship
with anger.
Let it be malleable, let it bevariable, different.
It doesn't have to always bethe same.
Um, and we can give ourselvesthe grace.
Yeah, we don't always have toget it perfect.
No, never.
Maya Benattar (46:33):
We're just not gonna get it perfect.
There is there is no perfectexpression of anger, right?
Like, and I often think about,especially in this time, anger
that has created changethroughout history.
Anger that has created change.
It has not been perfect.
It has been messy and chaoticand yet still mobilizing.
April Snow (46:54):
That's right.
It's still useful and valuableand life-changing for some
people.
Yeah, let's we need more ofthat.
Maya Benattar (47:02):
Yeah, for sure.
April Snow (47:03):
Well, Maya, I really appreciate this conversation
and just opening up permissionfor HSPs to get angry, to create
space for it, to haveconversations about it.
I'm wondering if there's anylast thoughts you have for
listeners before we wrap up.
Yeah.
Maya Benattar (47:21):
Oh, this has been so good.
I think I've probably saidthis, but I think it always
bears repeating that being angrydoesn't make you a bad person,
doesn't make you wrong, doesn'tmake you too much.
Anger is just really valuableinformation and it deserves to
be heard and felt in a way thatfeels okay.
April Snow (47:43):
Thank you.
Maya Benattar (47:45):
Thank you, April.
April Snow (47:46):
Really important reminder.
And if folks want to get intouch with you, I'll share your
website, your social media, yourInstagram.
And then is it okay to alsoshare your LCAT coalition?
Yeah, for sure.
Beautiful.
If anyone is interested andwants to look that up.
Maya Benattar (48:03):
And then I'll also, I would also love to share
the blog post about anger.
I wrote it a few years ago, butit feels still very relevant.
April Snow (48:10):
Yeah, I definitely want to include that for folks
to just have that in their backpocket.
Thanks so much for joining meand Maya for today's
conversation.
I hope you'll feel inspired tomake more space for your anger
through music, art, movement, orwith your own voice.
(48:30):
You can connect with Maya fortherapy or trainings through her
website or Instagram page.
Find the links in the shownotes.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated.
For behind the scenes contentand more HSB resources, you can
(48:52):
sign up for my email list orfollow Sensitive Strengths on
Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestories.com for all the
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
A lot of that comes up for HSPs in general
because anger was neversomething that they learned how
to actually feel in a way thatfelt grounded and safe and
powerful.
Anger is hard, it's difficultto feel it, to hold it, to
express it in not an explosiveor a dissociated kind of way.
You weren't born believing thatanger was bad.
(00:23):
And some level, in some way,explicitly or implicitly, it was
taught to you that this wasn'tan okay way to be.
April Snow (01:23):
Helping highly sensitive women live with less
anxiety, access true confidence,and finally detach from the I'm
not good enough mindset.
She relishes explorationsaround sensitivity, big
feelings, inherited familystories, and messy creativity.
In addition to her privatepractice, Maya provides wellness
workshops and professionaldevelopment trainings, both
(01:45):
online and in person.
For more HSP resources and tosee behind-the-scenes video from
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Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestories.com.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
(02:06):
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in thea, welcomeback to the podcast.
(02:33):
So excited to have you.
Yes, thank you so much.
I know you were on beforeepisode 31.
Something I still think about,you said on ramps to softness.
And someone just said that tome last week.
They're like, remember whenMaya said that?
I was like, Yes, it's so good.
I still think about it.
Maya Benattar (02:50):
Oh, I love that.
April Snow (02:51):
Just like, oh yeah, you can just ease into it.
It's important.
So that was something thatreally stuck out.
But today we're gonna be goingin a different direction.
We're gonna talk about anger.
Yeah.
Much needed conversation rightnow in your world.
And I think, especially forHSPs, to create some space that
you know, we don't always haveto be so nice all the time.
(03:11):
So I'm wondering if you're opento starting us off with talking
about your personalrelationship with anger and if
it's changed over the years atall.
Maya Benattar (03:21):
Yeah, I would love to talk about that because
it's actually changed quite abit.
April Snow (03:25):
Yeah.
Maya Benattar (03:25):
Yeah.
And I think the same isprobably true for a lot of
people.
But for many of us who were,you know, born into female
presenting bodies, I was verymuch socialized to not be angry,
to be nice, to be good, all ofthose sort of synonyms for not
angry.
And that followed me for a longtime.
I also, you know, grew up in afamily where cursing was not
(03:47):
generally okay.
Ironically, it was more okay tocurse in Arabic than it was to
curse in English.
I still haven't like totallymade sense of that because it's
still a curse, but you know,some of the Arabic curses I
still don't quite know what theymean.
They're like that bad.
But anyway.
So it took me a long time.
I think I was at least in mymid-20s before I would say fuck
(04:10):
out loud or say damn it orwhatever it is.
Right.
So it was a big process for meof being able to feel that anger
was okay, that I was entitledto it, that it didn't make me
bad or too much or wrong.
So that was a huge shift.
It's a shift that I'm still,you know, living into in my
(04:32):
early 40s, but a significantshift.
And then a few years ago, Iactually started an advocacy
organization in New York forlicensed creative arts
therapists, primarily because Iwas angry.
Anger is useful.
Yeah, anger can be so useful.
And I won't get into the whole,you know, background of that.
(04:52):
It's called the LCAT AdvocacyCoalition.
We are still going.
But essentially, I was angry.
And instead of letting thatlead to a quick spike and then a
collapse, I let the anger, andit just was the right moment in
time in my life.
I don't quite know exactly whatcrystallized it.
(05:13):
Had a couple of colleagues whowere like, yeah, you know, let's
do the thing.
My husband was very supportiveand just was able, I keep making
this motion, I was able to letthe anger move me into action.
And that just felt so fuckingsatisfying.
Yes.
And it doesn't mean that therearen't moments where the energy
(05:34):
goes back down the other way,because of course that happens.
I really learned in particularover the past few years that my
anger is really important, thatmy anger matters.
And it's been an interestingexploration as an HSP, as a
formerly very shy kid, which Ino longer consider myself shy,
(05:54):
but I absolutely consider myselfan HSP and I will be that
forevermore.
It's been really interesting tofind my voice in this new
embodied way.
April Snow (06:05):
Oh, how beautiful that you just let it take up
space.
Right.
And and you're channeling itfor advocacy work, which is
incredible.
Not that you have to do that,but anger is here for a reason.
It has a lot of energy behindit.
So when we shove it down, oh,it's so hard on us.
Yeah.
Maya Benattar (06:24):
Just to erase it.
When we shove it down, myopinion is that when we shove it
down, and this happens with alot of my clients who are HSPs,
the energy doesn't sometimes itmight feel like it disappears,
but it actually just gets likecompressed.
Yep.
And the feeling of compressedenergy is really crappy, in my
opinion.
Like it's just, oh, it's soheavy and stuck, and you know,
(06:47):
that's the knot in your chestand the pit in your stomach, and
the, you know, just the beingkind of whatever the word is for
this, kind of pushed downward.
So compressed.
Compressed, thank you.
The energy doesn't actually goanywhere, usually.
It just gets redirected andmade smaller.
And it deserves to take upspace.
April Snow (07:09):
Yeah, it really does.
And you're right, it doesn'tactually go away, it just shows
up in other forms.
Yeah.
And it could be physicalsymptoms.
I have clients where it's likea pressure cooker and they just
it takes over after years andyears and years of repression.
It wants to come out somewhere.
Maya Benattar (07:25):
Yeah.
April Snow (07:26):
Right.
And maybe we can be more incontrol of that.
Maya Benattar (07:29):
And that's the tricky thing.
You know, I have been thinkingabout talking about anger as it
relates to working with HSPs fora couple of years.
And there's usually one of twothings happen.
Of course, there's also usuallya third, but always it always.
But for HSPs, either they neverget angry.
And I don't believe that thatmeans they don't actually feel
(07:51):
anger, but they never letthemselves express it in a way
that feels, you know, completeand satisfying and safe.
And there's any number ofreasons why that might be
happening.
Or they are angry all the time,which then sort of feeds into
I'm too angry, I'm too much, I'mnot being good, all of that
(08:14):
narrative, which just comes up alot of that comes up for HSPs
in general, because anger wasnever something that they
learned how to actually feel ina way, again, that felt grounded
and safe and powerful.
And there's so many reasons,and I this is reminding me of a
blog post I wrote some yearsback about anger and why it
(08:34):
might be hard to feel it.
And there's so many reasons whyanger is hard.
I think not only for HSPs, butthat's the bulk of the work that
I do, but just for people ingeneral, why it's difficult to
feel it, to hold it, to expressit in not an explosive or
dissociated kind of way.
April Snow (08:53):
Right, where you're not just erasing it or
pretending it doesn't exist orjust letting it take over.
So you said it's hard for HSPsto feel anger.
And it gets a bad reputation.
Like, oh, we're supposed to bethe nice, soft, good, you know,
nice ones.
And why aren't we allowed to bemore angry as HSPs?
Maya Benattar (09:13):
I mean, I think a lot of this really overlaps
with just societal views aboutanger in general.
Yep, for sure.
I think we need to I lovereally naming that so explicitly
the last couple of yearsbecause it's just so fucking
true.
Like, and especially, like Isaid, especially for those of us
born in female presentingbodies, like this sense of like
(09:34):
it's not okay to be angry.
Yes.
Or, you know, all the rhetoricaround women being too angry or
too loud or too shrill orwhatever.
So I think it really startswith where, and that sort of
language happens in familiestoo.
You know, absolutely.
So for people who feel like,oh, it's not okay to be angry,
(09:55):
when I'm working with them intherapy, I always start with,
well, where did you hear that?
Yeah, where did that actuallycome from?
Because I've said to people,I'm not accepting that as like
sort of a blanket statement.
Like, yeah, anger may be hardfor you, anger may be tricky,
that's legit.
But to paint with a broad brushand say anger is bad, yes, I
(10:17):
don't know.
April Snow (10:18):
Yeah, it's not so absolute, right?
Maya Benattar (10:20):
It really never is, I think.
April Snow (10:23):
Yeah.
And looking at, yeah, where didyou learn that message?
Yeah, and let's push back onit.
Maya Benattar (10:28):
Yeah.
And so that's my thing.
That's my thing.
My one of my things the pastcouple of years is like that
gentle pushback of like, okay.
And sometimes I've had peoplesay, no, well, that's coming
from inside.
I'm like, well, any messagethat comes from inside started
from outside and got integrated,like with anything else, right?
Like with any other beliefs.
Like you didn't, you weren'tborn believing that anger was
(10:51):
bad.
Exactly.
You know, like on some level,in some way, explicitly or
implicitly, it was taught to youthat this wasn't an okay way to
be.
So, and it sometimes it mightbe as relatively simple as
experiencing others' anger andnot being protected from that,
right?
And there's a whole lot tounpack there.
(11:12):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
But for a lot of us, thesocietal messaging is just the
gendered messaging, is just sohuge and it's so pervasive.
So really beginning to unpackthat.
Yeah.
And to unpack what it means tobe angry.
Like, does anger like I'vecursed a couple of times and I
(11:34):
enjoy being able to curse?
There's research about howactually cursing is like better
for you than holding it in.
I'm blanking on the name of thebook, but it was a few years
back.
April Snow (11:42):
That makes sense.
Yeah.
You can be more in tune withwhat you're feeling.
It's more expressive.
Yeah.
Maya Benattar (11:49):
Right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
So, like I was saying before,there are so many reasons why
anger is so difficult for HSPs.
And I think figuring that out,it isn't so simple as like, here
are the five bullet points,because you know, we're all
complex beings in so many ways.
But I often start with, well,where do you think you learned
that?
What's your earliest memory ofbeing told that?
(12:12):
Or sometimes it's not aboutbeing told don't be angry, but
being told be good or be nice orbe compliant, you know, which
is a word that's been coming upa lot lately in the news, right?
And so what's missing fromthose words is anger, but the
implication is still there.
Right.
It's so, so implicit and it'sso implicit for women.
(12:33):
So I think being able to beeven just a little bit curious,
and like I was saying before, ifclients are struggling with how
to be curious about that, thenI have no problem being
explicitly curious for them,with them, of you know, where
did you first hear that?
Or this is what I'm hearing.
And I wonder if that makessense.
(12:54):
And yeah, and so then alsounpacking the belief that anger
is inherently bad, right?
That cursing is bad, or that italways looks one way.
I think that there's a lot of,you know, especially if you grew
up in a family that did angerone specific way, then you got
(13:15):
used to, because we adapt, yougot used to anger looking one
specific way.
And so this idea that anger canlook so many different ways,
right?
You can be angry withoutcursing.
Just because I've been cursingdoesn't mean that's the one way
to do anger, right?
You can feel anger in yourbody, you can express anger in
your words, it can be in yourart, it can be in your music,
(13:36):
right?
Like there are so manydifferent sort of containers for
anger.
Yeah, it doesn't have to bephysical, it doesn't have to be
violent, it doesn't have to beexplosive, right?
It can be this sort ofundercurrent, right?
Like as opposed to now, I'mthinking of a river, right?
The sort of the energy of ariver, maybe after the spring
(13:57):
thaw, if you live where there'sa spring thaw, like it's
flowing, there's movement, butit's not, you know, an ocean
wave that takes you under,right?
It's more consistent andsteady, right?
So anger can look so manydifferent ways and it'll shift.
We were saying this before,like day to day, moment to
(14:18):
moment, season to season.
It doesn't have to be static.
April Snow (14:22):
It's a helpful reminder that anger, especially
when you're allowing it to movethrough regularly, it can be a
lot lighter, it can be morefluid, it could even maybe be
creative, or as you know, you'rechanneling anger into advocacy
work.
So it could be resourcing.
There's just so many ways itshows up.
And we usually think of it asviolence, you know, verbally
(14:45):
aggressive.
And it can be some of that too,but there's so many more
opportunities for anger to comethrough.
Maya Benattar (14:51):
Yeah.
April Snow (14:51):
Yeah, it's a good reminder to hear that.
Like anger looks many differentways.
So however you express it,beautiful.
Maya Benattar (14:58):
And I think, you know, the important just to
piggyback on that, I think oneof the really important things
about expressing it is figuringout how to express it in a way
that feels safe.
Right.
So I have a lot of clients, andI felt this myself for a long
time.
I have a lot of clients whofeel, well, if I go near that,
I'm gonna get lost in it.
I'm gonna go down the rabbithole of it, I'm gonna drown in
(15:19):
it.
It's a lot of imagery there.
And so part of the work that wedo is figuring out the
titration of it, right?
Like what amount of anger istolerable?
You don't have to love it.
It doesn't have to be yourfavorite, at least not right
from the jump.
But like, what amount istolerable?
And the way that I work as acreative arts therapist is that
I'm in it with them, right?
(15:39):
I'm not just sitting there andsaying, tell me about your
anger, but like, hey, if youdraw it, I'll play it.
Or can we play it together?
Or these are like recordedmusic options that are somewhere
in the vicinity of anger.
Do any of these feel you know,connected for you?
So I'm really in it with them.
And I can only do that becauseI've done so much of my own work
(16:01):
around anger.
April Snow (16:02):
Well, you're really joining with, yeah, which is so
healing when you've been toldyour anger is bad, you need to
hide it away.
It's like, no, let me see it,let me be in it with you.
Maya Benattar (16:15):
It's so validating.
I have so many clients who weretold as kids, even as adults,
like, if you're gonna be angry,go in your room, close the door,
or their parents would ignorethem or shame them for just for
being angry about like regularkid things.
Like, we're not even talkinglike you know, explosive anger.
I'm like for just havingfeelings.
(16:37):
And so it's so different forthem, and they'll often name
this.
It's so different for them thatI'm like, hey, you're angry.
Yeah, you're fucking angry.
Of course you're angry.
What music did you listen to asa kid when you were alone with
your anger?
Which is so powerful.
And then can we listen to thattogether?
And sometimes just that is sohealing, right?
(16:59):
Because that was a resourcethat they used.
But then to have that be ashared experience as opposed to
a solitary one really can shiftthings, and it's a really
powerful place to start from.
April Snow (17:10):
Yeah, I could see doing that even with a friend or
a spouse or a loved one.
Like, hey, I'm feeling prettyangry right now.
Will you listen to this songwith me?
Yeah.
Let's join together.
Maya Benattar (17:22):
Yeah.
I mean, it's a way that I movemyself through.
Like, I'll, you know, literallythis morning, I was really
angry.
It was a combination of things.
It was what's going on inMinnesota and something that was
happening in the advocacy workand something else I can't
really remember right now.
And I was really angry.
And so a few years ago, myinclination might have been to
just to like temper.
(17:44):
To temper.
And I had the time.
This wasn't a client day forme.
So I was like, you know what?
I'm angry right now.
April Snow (17:51):
Yeah.
Maya Benattar (17:52):
And I need to feel that.
And so I put on oh man, SevenNation Army by the white
stripes.
Oh, that's a good one.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I just looped that.
I did a little bit of imagingon the page with some oil
pastels, right?
And so I'll choose artmaterials intentionally, and
those like let me like reallyfeel the paper.
(18:13):
And and then after that wasenough, like I put the image
aside.
I'm like, I kind of want tokeep listening to this.
And I looped it.
I was answering emails.
I was, you know, using mystanding desk.
So I was moving, which isreally important for me.
And after maybe like 20, 25minutes, I was like, I think I'm
done with the song.
And and that was a really clearknowing, right?
(18:34):
So I gave myself thepermission.
Like, I know that song, right?
It wasn't brand new to me.
I think a lot of us know thatsong.
And it is pretty containing.
So thinking about like thestructure of it, right?
That that bass, those drums,like it's pretty containing.
It's not, I wouldn't considerit especially chaotic.
Um, you know, it's at leastpretty predictable.
Yeah.
That will also change day today.
(18:55):
If I listen to it tomorrow, Imight be like, oh my God, so
much.
Right.
But it matched your mood today.
It matched.
It was, it was close enough andit matched.
I don't break my head and Iencourage my clients not to
break their heads trying to findthe perfect piece of music.
I don't think that exists.
Yep.
You know, it's not aboutperfection, it's just about good
enough, right?
Which I think is something thatall therapists say in one way
(19:16):
or another.
And so when I was done withthat piece, I moved on to
something else.
I was clear in my just in myintuition that I still needed
something with energy to it.
April Snow (19:28):
Makes sense.
Maya Benattar (19:28):
You're not going to drop down too far.
Right.
Yeah.
But sometimes we have thatinclination of like, oh, okay, I
got to move from there tothere.
And it's like, you're not alight switch.
I say this to my clients a lot.
Like, you are not a lightswitch, you know, a regular
light switch that toggles on andoff.
And because often they feel thepressure of like, I have to be
angry or calm or happy or, youknow, just these binaries.
April Snow (19:50):
Yeah, bring in some gray, some transition space.
Maya Benattar (19:54):
I talk, I we were talking before you and I about
like dimmer switches.
And I actually use that imageryall the time with clients of
like, what would 10% less looklike?
And when I'm working withpeople in person, my office has
a dimmer switch, thank goodness,as an HSP.
And so I'll like point to it,or I've literally drawn it for
people when working virtually,or I've been like, Do you have a
dimmer switch?
(20:14):
I mean, everyone pretty muchknows what a dimmer switch is.
But just that idea of like theshades of gray, the nuance, the
okay, my anger was at a 10.
And after listening to thatsong, I just felt like a seven
and a half.
Yeah.
And that was more tolerable.
I wasn't like, you know,vibrating anymore.
And so I shifted the music Iwas listening to.
(20:35):
And I actually kept shiftingfor a few hours after that.
And so before we got on, I'dshifted my way all the way down
to like a Paul Simon track.
Okay.
If I had put on a Paul Simontrack this morning, it wouldn't
have even registered.
Right.
So it is, and in music therapylanguage and in other languages
(20:55):
called the ISO principle, thatyou meet yourself where you are
and then you move graduallytowards where you want to be.
That makes sense.
And some music therapists whowork, let's say in the hospital
with someone who's really havinga lot of anxiety or a lot of
pain, if you come in from thejump with like the most
beautiful, calm music, it's notgonna register.
It's not gonna meet them wherethey are.
(21:16):
No.
And we all deserve that, right?
Whatever the situation is, wedeserve to be met and held where
we are.
And then to, you know, to begradually moved to somewhere
else with that support and withthat gentleness, but also a firm
container, right?
And music can do that sobeautifully.
April Snow (21:34):
Well, and it's like how you will talk about how when
you're anxious, sitting inmeditation does not work.
It's too same principle.
Yeah, right.
It's too far away from whereyou are, and you're trying to
put a you know a square peg in around hole.
It doesn't exactly.
Same if you're trying to listento Paul Simon when you really
need to listen to White Stripesor something even more intense,
(21:56):
just matching your energy.
So it sounds like Know thismorning you talked about
completing the anger.
So is that kind of what thatmeans?
Of I'm letting the angerexpress, I'm kind of moving
through, I'm giving it space toexist.
Maya Benattar (22:12):
Yeah.
I mean, it felt like acompletion for the moment.
It doesn't yeah, like itdoesn't obviously mean that I'm
done with anger forever.
Right.
I don't even know what thatmeans.
But like that current iterationhad been felt and integrated
and moved through.
And you know, me of 10 yearsago might have very well put on
Paul Simon.
(22:33):
No, no shade to Paul Simon.
I love his music.
Might have very well put onPaul Simon and said, okay, Maya
Brie.
Don't need to be angry.
It's not a big deal.
Like all of those messages thatI'm sure we've all said to
ourselves or heard from otherpeople, like Justin Brown, like
all of that.
It's like, no, I was I wasangry.
April Snow (22:52):
Yeah, and hearing calm down is so infuriating.
I know, I know.
Maya Benattar (22:56):
I tossed it in because like I'm sure everyone
listening has probably I thinkwe've all heard that at one
point or another.
And it's like it's not helpful.
No, it is yeah, it's justreally not helpful.
I had another word, but that'sreally the gist of it.
No, it's invalidating.
It's invalidating.
Thank you, customer.
It's invalidating, it'sunhelpful.
It doesn't actually hear ormeet the moment.
April Snow (23:20):
No.
Maya Benattar (23:20):
Right.
And I think this moment thatwe're living in, I want to like
be explicit about this moment,yeah.
It is January 14th.
You know, we're in the US.
This moment that we're livingin is a moment of collective
trauma.
And it's been, you know, wecould also say we've been living
in moments of collective traumafor a long time now.
Very long.
(23:40):
And what we don't need inmoments of collective trauma is
only the calming down.
April Snow (23:46):
Like oh, yeah.
That's the opposite of what weneed.
It's like pulling the wool overand think saying, this isn't
happening.
Maya Benattar (23:53):
Right.
April Snow (23:53):
Right.
People aren't suffering.
Maya Benattar (23:55):
Right.
April Snow (23:56):
People aren't scared.
Yeah.
Maya Benattar (23:58):
And so we need to be able to feel that anger
again, ideally in a way thatfeels safe and grounded, right?
Like I it would not have feltgrounding for me if I had run
out the front door and like gonefor a sprint.
I'm also not a runner, but youknow.
Um, some people that is theticket for them, right?
Going for a run is just thething they need.
(24:21):
So knowing like what works foryou or having a menu sort of to
choose from is really helpful, Ifind.
April Snow (24:29):
Yeah.
And I'm glad you brought thatsafety piece back because that
is such an important part of theprocess.
Maya Benattar (24:34):
Yeah.
April Snow (24:34):
I'm wondering if we could share for listeners what
might be some unsafe things toexpress anger.
It sounds like if it's notaligned for you, maybe it's
something that you wouldn'tnormally gravitate towards, or
if it's not matching the momentof your emotional state, like if
you're trying to force yourselfinto a calm space.
Yeah, if we could just sharewith what that might look like.
(24:55):
What would be an unsafe way tobe in anger?
Maya Benattar (25:00):
So, like so many things, like this will vary
person to person.
So all of this comes with likea giant caveat, right?
Yep.
I think that generallyspeaking, I will urge clients
not to try to express anger in away that is inflicting physical
harm on their own bodies.
Yep.
And there's a differencebetween, you know, pinching your
(25:22):
arm and punching a pillow,right?
The pillow is external.
Your arm is internal.
But you know, we don't need tosplit hairs, like, sure, it's on
the outside, but you get whatI'm saying.
I get what you mean.
Yeah.
So because sometimes I've hadthat happen with clients who are
adults where like they neverlearned, they were never taught,
it was never a model for themthat like, hey, put on the
(25:42):
headphones or hey, go for a walkor squeeze a pillow.
So they do end up doing a bitof self-harm.
Not even to the point of likecutting or anything like that,
but just you know, hittingthemselves on the head or
something like that.
Because it's the only releasethat they know.
So I do try to encourageclients of like, let's just
expand the possibilities.
(26:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, right.
Without shaming, right?
Like, of course, that's thatwas all that was available.
Yeah, it makes sense thatthat's what you gravitate
towards.
Or like, even something like,you know, I'm a jog huncher
myself, but some people will,that's what they'll
intentionally go to.
And it's like, oh, that thathurts.
Like, I personally know likehow much that fucking hurts.
(26:25):
Yes.
You know.
So generally speaking, I thinkum building out, like, you know,
I'm biased as a musictherapist.
Like, I have people build outplaylists and we do it, yeah,
like having an anger playlistand building it out ideally when
you're feeling fine.
Like I knew this morning thatsong, Seven Nation Army, um,
(26:46):
that that would probably workfor me.
Yeah.
I've listened to it before,I've moved to it before, I've
imaged to it before.
So having even just like twosongs that you know, I think for
me it's lately it's that oneand a nirvana song.
Oh, always good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, so like having a couple ofgo-to songs, physical movement,
I find.
Like because we were sayingbefore, like oftentimes the
(27:10):
inclination to just like tamp itdown is really strong.
And we might not always like, Iwas lucky today.
I'm gonna name that I was luckyand privileged today to be
home, be in my space, and beable to move.
You know, if I'm in my officeand I'm between clients, I might
have two minutes.
Right.
So that's when I do somethinglike energetic sweeping or
(27:31):
literally jumping up and downsometimes, or pushing into the
wall really hard, like reallyactivating all of my arm
muscles.
Really simple somatic stufflike that actually can really
make a difference.
April Snow (27:44):
Oh, it really does.
Just to engage your body inthat emotion is even if you only
have a minute or two, it'sbetter than pushing it.
Maya Benattar (27:53):
Totally.
And it's the pendulating in andout, right?
So it's not about like youknow, pushing on the wall for 10
minutes without any reprieve.
Like you're just gonna end upwith a sore arm and a sore
shoulder, probably.
But like the pushing, this iseither from S E or S P, I never
remember, but like pushing inand then you release.
Yes.
Push in and then you release,right?
So like to feel the pendulatingin and out.
(28:16):
That's safety, right?
To know I can feel this, I canmove away from it.
Yeah.
Feel it, I can move away fromit.
Right.
Right.
And so to have that sense ofagency with your anger, that
also changes the internalnarrative around like this is
just something I have to, youknow, race and get through, or
(28:38):
something that happens around meor to me, right?
To be able to go in, to go out.
April Snow (28:43):
Yes.
Such a good reminder that youwon't be trapped in the anger.
So a lot of people I work with,they're so scared of their
anger.
Yeah.
They've been told it was wrong,that they're just an angry
person, that it's something youneed to get rid of, that people
don't like them when they'reangry.
Yeah.
So yeah, it's just a goodreminder.
Oh, this is a temporary state.
(29:04):
It'll come and go forever foryour whole life.
I mean, we have endless thingsto be angry about right now, as
always.
So it's not going away, but wecan move in and out of it, and
we're not stuck.
Maya Benattar (29:17):
Yeah.
It's the stuckness that wefear.
And that's such a humaninclination, right?
To fear being stuck.
No one wants to be stuck.
It's a really shitty feeling.
But to have those experiences,and I think that's why you know
therapy can be so reparative,those experiences of okay, just
a little bit, right?
And sometimes I'll have clientslike, can you draw the anger?
(29:38):
Right.
So then it's already gettingexternalized because when it's
internal and you don't eitherhave language for it or a safe
experience of it, it'soverwhelming, right?
Yes, it is.
So you see them sometimes justlike, can you draw it?
Okay, what's it like to see it?
Right?
Like the shape that it has, thecolors that you chose.
And then where do you choose?
(30:00):
You know, you can put itsomewhere else, which like
intellectually we know thispiece of paper is mobile and it
can go places, but it's sopowerful to feel like, oh, I can
put my anger on the other sideof the office.
I've had people like hide angerall over my office when I'm in
a person.
Or the anger gets, you know, tosit next to one of the stuffies
(30:21):
and the stuffy's keeping theanger company so they can take a
pause from right.
Like again, just so manydifferent experiences.
So when you've had like prettylimited or repetitive
experiences of anger to sort ofwiden the capacity of like, oh,
I can draw it, I can crumple itup.
You know, I've even had peoplelike hand me their image, like,
(30:42):
can you hold it?
I'm like, Yeah, I can hold it.
It's fine.
I'm just put it right here onmy lap or right next to me.
There's infinite possibilities.
There really are.
April Snow (30:51):
I love that.
It's like again, joining withand taking some of that weight
off, like, okay, you're not inthis alone.
And you may have been when youwere younger, smaller, yeah, but
not now.
Yeah.
So this is starting to bring itout.
And I love putting it on thepage.
Maya Benattar (31:06):
Yeah.
April Snow (31:07):
It's so good.
Like, oh, this is what it lookslike.
And also, I'm getting it out ofmyself.
Maya Benattar (31:13):
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, catharsis, look, thedesire for catharsis is legit,
right?
So, but I think when we letanger be just catharsis, it can
also be overwhelming.
Right.
And that's kind of the flipside.
So I have a lot of clients whodon't feel able to express anger
for, like I said, any number ofreasons.
(31:34):
And then those that come in, alot of HSP clients, you know, in
recent times will say, I'm tooangry, too angry, or I'm angry
all the time and I'm overwhelmedby it.
Yeah.
Right.
So to be able to sort of figureout again that gray space of
like, can I feel just a littlebit of it?
Or can I feel my anger, butwithout it being purely an
(31:56):
exercise and catharsis?
And that takes someexploration, right?
Because we want to just likeget it out.
Oh yeah.
But there's more waiting behindit.
Right.
There's more, there's alwaysmore waiting behind it.
But if our focus is just ongetting it out, right, which is
why, you know, I didn't listento the white stripes for six
hours straight.
You know, if our focus is juston letting it out, it then
(32:20):
becomes, for lack of a betterphrase, like, you know, you
vomit it all up and you feelbetter when you have a stomach.
It's probably not the end ofthe stomach bug, right?
This may not be a metaphor.
But I think it's reallyimportant to feel, okay, I don't
have to go all the way to theend to feel relief or to feel in
control or to feel better,right?
(32:40):
Because catharsis is lookingfor that relief and you deserve
that relief, but catharsis somany times will take you out of
your window of tolerance, right?
You say all the things, youvent, you dump.
You haven't actually learnedhow to experience anger in a way
that feels productive, thatfeels safe, that feels
(33:01):
mobilizing.
Right.
And the reality is we all needa good vent sometimes.
I, you know, like I'm alsofeeling like if that's the only
way that you experience anger,there's limitations on it.
April Snow (33:13):
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
Like you're turning the lightdown too quickly, kind of
throwing yourself into it.
Yeah, because you have totitrate, you have to take a
little bit at a time or you getthat explosion.
Maya Benattar (33:24):
Yeah.
April Snow (33:25):
I'm just thinking of like a chemical reaction.
Maya Benattar (33:27):
Yeah, I mean, pretty much, right?
April Snow (33:30):
Right.
So we have to then I love thatyou said that relief.
You don't have to get to theend to have relief.
Like you today you said, oh, Iwent from maybe a 10 to a seven.
I forget exactly how you saidthat.
But like, oh, I'm just slowlydown shifting a little bit at a
time, and that's relieving too.
Yeah.
And it gives us a chance tolearn about our anger.
Maya Benattar (33:50):
Yeah.
April Snow (33:50):
So what is possible when we're moving slowly?
Are we building relationshipsto anger?
Are we learning how to workwith it?
All of it.
I think all of that.
Maya Benattar (34:00):
I think, you know, I see like the building a
different relationship to anger,that's really the fundamental
piece.
Yeah.
Right.
That anger can be an allyinstead of an enemy.
Right.
Like that is, yeah, that is so,that's just so important.
I think a lot of times, again,for any number of reasons,
people have learned that angeris the enemy.
(34:22):
And so what if, and sometimesthat's really valid, right?
If they've had experiences ofbeing literally unsafe.
I'm not here to take that awayfrom anyone, but what if anger
could be an ally, like what Ishared with the advocacy work
that I do got started.
The anger was like this drivingforce that was pushing me
forward.
(34:43):
Yeah.
Right.
And there have been momentswhere I've been overwhelmed, I'm
not gonna lie.
But it feels better to be doingsomething than to not.
April Snow (34:54):
Yeah, the action feels good.
Maya Benattar (34:55):
Yeah, right.
April Snow (34:57):
Anger wants to be moving.
Maya Benattar (35:00):
And also like anger is telling us something
really important, right?
Like it is giving us so muchinformation.
It is, you know, if you thinkin part, it is a part, it is a
voice, whatever the language youuse is that that wants to be
heard, that deserves to beheard, right?
And oftentimes, most of thetime, it is saying, This is not
(35:22):
okay.
Yes, right?
Some version of that saying,this is not okay.
I do not feel okay about this.
April Snow (35:30):
Yes, it is an ally, it's helping you stay safe.
Yeah, ultimately.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's important to listen toit.
Maya Benattar (35:39):
Yeah, for sure.
April Snow (35:40):
Mm-hmm and make space for it.
Yeah, that brings up a listenerquestion, which is let's say
you are noticing something's notokay, you're getting angry, but
then people are trying to pushyou around and maybe try to
control your experience.
How can we stand up forourselves?
Obviously, we're hopefullyexpressing it with ourselves,
but is there a way to channelthat anger towards others in
(36:04):
relationship where we can startto communicate the anger?
Maya Benattar (36:08):
Yeah, this happens so often, right?
Especially I find this withclients when they start to feel
more connected to their anger,people in their lives are like,
wait a minute, you this is newand I don't like this, right?
Or some version of that.
There's so many thoughts that Ihave when I see what this is a
big question.
Yeah, it's a big question.
And it does, you know, I thinkthe answer is different
depending on the context, right?
(36:28):
Like, is someone pushing backon you in a text message when
you have a moment to yourself tokind of collect yourself versus
face to face, right?
Like, so I think the momentswhen it's happening not in real
time, whether let's say a text.
And I think that's a moment toactually step away and to come
back into your body, whateverthat looks like for you, right?
(36:51):
So whether it's a song, whetherit's movement, whether it's,
you know, going to hug your dog,that's a big one for me.
Shout out to Willis.
April Snow (37:00):
Yes.
Maya Benattar (37:02):
You know, that is like giving yourself that break
because what can often happen,and especially in the world we
live in where like thenotifications are going off all
the time and there is thispressure.
Like I live my life with myphone mostly on DD because I'm
like, I'm not available, even ifI might be available.
Yeah.
So like giving yourself thatbreak of like they're pushing
back on my anger.
(37:22):
I don't need to respond rightnow.
Yes.
I can, you know, put my phonedown and go into the other room
for five minutes and nothing,that's fine.
Like, that's not a big deal.
Yeah.
So refining that anger, becauseusually what I find happens in
those moments is either youcollapse internally or it's like
you turn the flames up to 10.
(37:44):
And you probably don't want torespond from either of those
places, ideally.
Right.
So, like figuring out, like,okay, how do I either need to re
find my body?
Like, I even just did it now,like, where's my spine?
Right.
Because when we collapse, wekind of do this.
That's true.
Yeah.
You know, it might be moresubtle than that.
We don't always like end upcurling up into a ball, but it's
(38:07):
some version of that.
So, like, where's my shoulders?
Where's my spine?
Can I am I aware of the back ofmy body or am I just collapsing
forward?
Which is a really instinctualthing to do, right?
To like literally protect ourmost vulnerable parts.
So that's if like it'shappening not in real time and
you can take some time.
I think if it's happening inreal time, where like let's say
(38:29):
you're having a conversationwith someone, and this is
trickier, of course.
You're having a conversationwith someone and you're
expressing anger and they'repushing back on it.
April Snow (38:38):
Yeah.
Maya Benattar (38:39):
It's a different version of where is my body,
right?
So, you know, are you aware ofyour feet?
Like that's a big one for me.
Not be calm.
I think sometimes when we'relike be in your body, there's
the okay, I'm gonna be calm.
It's really hard to be calmwhile you're experiencing
someone either be angry at youor push back.
(39:00):
So where are your feet?
Right.
And then any number of options,including, you know, hey, can
we take a break?
Or I need five minutes, or I'ma big proponent of the little
white lies.
And I absolutely say this toclients.
Yeah, you know, like, say youneed to use the restroom when
you don't use the restroom, or Ithink I hear my phone ringing,
(39:23):
or the dog is barking.
Or I mean, I guess you can'tpretend that the dog is barking
when they're not, but you getthe idea, right?
Like just if you need to removeyourself, remove yourself.
April Snow (39:33):
Yes, find whatever way you can to do that.
Maya Benattar (39:36):
Yeah.
April Snow (39:36):
For safety.
Maya Benattar (39:37):
Yeah, 100%.
And so there's really justthere's a permission in that of
like you do not have to braceand make it through, right?
Those of us who have hadoverwhelming experiences of
anger probably are used to justlike we brace until it's done.
Yep, get through it.
And that's a really, you know,that's a learned behavior.
(39:58):
And it may have kept you reallysafe in many scenarios, right?
I'm not here to say like that'snot the way to do it, but this
is about exploring what are someother options, right?
If you're having like a bigblowout fight with your mom in
the kitchen, mom, I need abreath of fresh air, right?
Like I'm gonna walk around theblock, I'll be back in five
(40:20):
minutes.
April Snow (40:21):
Break that cycle.
Maya Benattar (40:22):
Right.
Yeah, because a lot of anger,especially with people who we
know, it runs in cycles, right?
Like you say something, theysay something, and then right,
back and forth.
Yeah.
So if possible, giving yourselfthat break.
If that isn't possible, or ifit happens so fast that
afterwards you're like, wait,what the hell happened?
I think being able to reflect,right?
(40:45):
As opposed to like, oh fuck, Idid it again, or this is never
gonna change.
Like when you're able, like itis helpful, I find, to reflect
afterwards, even if it didn't gothe way you want it to, which
happens all the time, right?
And being able to ideallyreflect with as much kindness
towards yourself as possible,right?
Because working on your angeris not going to be helped by
(41:09):
being angry at yourself.
Right.
Just gonna feed it.
Yeah.
And a lot of us HSPs can bereally self-critical.
I have that capacity as well.
And so it could be really easyto spin into the, oh, I fucked
up, oh, I did this wrong.
Why don't I ever learn?
That just, and even as I'msaying these things, and I'm not
even angry right now, I'm justI can feel the like, uh, it's so
(41:32):
heavy.
April Snow (41:33):
It's so heavy.
You just beat yourself down.
Yeah.
Instead of just making spacefor the anger.
And like, I'm a human withemotions, and it's hard to
figure things out in the moment,especially as an HSP.
When we need time to process,you don't always get to do that
real time.
Maya Benattar (41:48):
And there's something to be said also for
like in the reflection after oflike, what would you have wanted
it to feel like?
Yeah.
You know, it this isn't anideal world that we're not
shooting for perfection, butcould you imagine that scenario,
whatever the details were,feeling a little different?
Right.
It's the imagining somethingdifferent, I think, that is so
(42:10):
important because we can getreally stuck in the loop of like
this is what always happens.
And so I'll do that withclients sometimes when they come
in, they're like, and this andthis.
And like, okay, could youimagine this having gone a
different way?
Even if it feels we don't haveto figure out the how right now,
like we can get really stuck inthat.
I think a lot of us in alsohave that capacity.
How am I gonna do the thingthat I want to have happen?
(42:33):
But if we can hang out with thewhat do you imagine it would
look like, feel like, sound likeif it was different, that's
important sort of repatterningfor your nervous system as well.
That's an opportunity to find asong or to draw it, or what did
you want this to feel like?
Because that's also reallyvalidating of like, oh, yeah, I
(42:55):
this isn't what happened, but mydesire for this different
experience matters.
And I can have a little snippetof that experience now.
April Snow (43:05):
Yes, already changing the narrative, yeah.
Getting to try it on and thengetting to talk to yourself
differently, yeah, surroundingthe emotion.
Maya Benattar (43:15):
It's also a way to, you know, if you're doing it
in hindsight, it's a way toexperience it and kind of store
that internally for the nexttime, right?
Because when we're in the heatof the moment, whatever the
moment is, if we haven'texperienced the thing, right?
If we haven't learned, whetherit's anxiety or anger or
(43:35):
whatever, if we haven't learnedhow to do the thing that we're
wanting to do, if we haven'tlearned it out of the moment,
you're probably not going tolearn it in the moment, which is
why people saying just calmdown is so inherently unhelpful.
Yes.
Exactly.
So being able to play aroundwith it outside of the heat of
the moment, right?
Is just sort of have a littlebit of practice.
(43:58):
It's like anger practice.
April Snow (44:00):
You know, yeah, exactly.
Just like you're making yourplaylists out of the moment.
Yeah, try on some differentthings in your mind.
So you then you'll have that inthe background next time.
Maya Benattar (44:10):
Or you know, I'm a huge proponent of like trying
it on before you need it, justin general, whether it's anger
or something else.
But like if you haven't triedit beforehand, you're not gonna
have access to it in the heat ofthe moment.
In the heat of the moment, youknow, if I'm really pissed, I'm
not gonna be able to tell youanything, you know, like it's
(44:32):
just not happening.
But I know where my phone isand I know, you know, usually,
and I know, you know, how tofind music on it.
And I so it's a way to reallycare for future you're like, I'm
gonna practice this now so thatI have it when I need it.
It's like taking your vitamins.
April Snow (44:48):
Yeah, exactly.
I obviously we're talking aboutkind of a post-angering
situation, but if you want towork with your anger, could you
reverse engineer where maybe youput the anger playlist on and
you're letting your body move,whether it's through art or
somatic practices, and thenmaybe you tap into some anger
just to start to buildrelationships.
(45:08):
Is that possible?
Maya Benattar (45:10):
I think so.
I think because ultimately thisis about, like you were saying
before, this is about building adifferent relationship to
anger.
Right.
Right.
So a lot of times doing thatneeds to happen when you're not
actually angry.
Right.
Yeah.
And that runs so contrary towhat a lot of people believe.
And honestly, what a lot ofpeople believe about processing
(45:31):
this stuff in therapy.
Well, I'm not angry right now,I'm fine.
Right.
How many times have we heardthat?
Right.
I'm like, I'm like, amazing.
You're fine.
What in the grand scheme of Idon't think I actually talk like
this, but like, what needs someattention that isn't front and
center for you right now?
Right.
So I often will do work withpeople around anger, around
(45:53):
anxiety when they're feelingfine.
Because when you're feelingfine, you're a little more
resourced.
Exactly.
That's the time to do the work.
That actually is, right?
And oftentimes, look, everytime do you have to do the work
and you feel fine?
No, sometimes just fuckingenjoy feeling fine and you know,
love it.
But sometimes that's really anopportunity that we often will
miss.
April Snow (46:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I'm appreciating thisinvitation to be in relationship
with anger.
Let it be malleable, let it bevariable, different.
It doesn't have to always bethe same.
Um, and we can give ourselvesthe grace.
Yeah, we don't always have toget it perfect.
No, never.
Maya Benattar (46:33):
We're just not gonna get it perfect.
There is there is no perfectexpression of anger, right?
Like, and I often think about,especially in this time, anger
that has created changethroughout history.
Anger that has created change.
It has not been perfect.
It has been messy and chaoticand yet still mobilizing.
April Snow (46:54):
That's right.
It's still useful and valuableand life-changing for some
people.
Yeah, let's we need more ofthat.
Maya Benattar (47:02):
Yeah, for sure.
April Snow (47:03):
Well, Maya, I really appreciate this conversation
and just opening up permissionfor HSPs to get angry, to create
space for it, to haveconversations about it.
I'm wondering if there's anylast thoughts you have for
listeners before we wrap up.
Yeah.
Maya Benattar (47:21):
Oh, this has been so good.
I think I've probably saidthis, but I think it always
bears repeating that being angrydoesn't make you a bad person,
doesn't make you wrong, doesn'tmake you too much.
Anger is just really valuableinformation and it deserves to
be heard and felt in a way thatfeels okay.
April Snow (47:43):
Thank you.
Maya Benattar (47:45):
Thank you, April.
April Snow (47:46):
Really important reminder.
And if folks want to get intouch with you, I'll share your
website, your social media, yourInstagram.
And then is it okay to alsoshare your LCAT coalition?
Yeah, for sure.
Beautiful.
If anyone is interested andwants to look that up.
Maya Benattar (48:03):
And then I'll also, I would also love to share
the blog post about anger.
I wrote it a few years ago, butit feels still very relevant.
April Snow (48:10):
Yeah, I definitely want to include that for folks
to just have that in their backpocket.
Thanks so much for joining meand Maya for today's
conversation.
I hope you'll feel inspired tomake more space for your anger
through music, art, movement, orwith your own voice.
(48:30):
You can connect with Maya fortherapy or trainings through her
website or Instagram page.
Find the links in the shownotes.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated.
For behind the scenes contentand more HSB resources, you can
(48:52):
sign up for my email list orfollow Sensitive Strengths on
Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestories.com for all the
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
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