May 17, 2023 • 37 mins
On this week’s episode, Christine and Shannon are joined by Nina Carbone to discuss their research on bi-erasure and specific stigma around multisexuality.
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UNKNOWN (00:00):
Music.
SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
Hi, this is Sex Ed Debunked, a cross-generational
podcast hosted bymother-daughter duo Christine
and Shannon Curley.
Every episode, we tackle a newmyth about sex, sexuality, and
pleasure and use research andexpert insights to debunk
stereotypes and misinformationfrom the bedroom and beyond.
In 2022, we won the AmericanAssociation of Sexuality
Educators, Counselors, andTherapists Award for Best
(00:24):
Podcast and also managed to nottotally freak out our family and
friends along the way.
We believe in healthy,sex-positive, pleasure-focused
sex education backed by Hi,welcome to Sex Ed Debunked, a
cross-generational podcast aboutsex positivity, sexual health,
(00:51):
and the Backstreet Boys' queeranthem, Bye Bye Bye.
You said that last time we didthe bisexuality episode.
That's because I'm reallyjoining up this trending as a
fact that it's actually aboutbisexuals.
You do you, Shannon.
I mean, yeah.
It is Masturbation May.
Stop it.
That's not today's topic.
Today's topic is notMasturbation May.
(01:13):
Today's topic is a subject wehave talked about before,
identity.
But today we're talkingspecifically about bisexual and
multisexual identity, which is aterm that I'm really curious to
explore because it seems to be anew term in academia right now.
Yeah, I haven't heard of it.
So the cool thing is that wehave brought in some help for
(01:34):
our discussion, as we love to dowhen we are not, in fact,
experts on the topics we'retalking about.
So we are excited to welcomeback Nina Carbone, who some of
you may remember from ourepisode on non-binary identities
and experiences.
So welcome back to the show,Nina.
Hi, it's good to be here.
Good to have you back.
And you and Christine have somehistory, right?
Well, Nina was a student ofmine, one of my most excellent
(01:56):
students, actually, in ourresearch methods.
And we talked a lot about yourpotential research in that
class.
And it's really exciting to knowthat you have taken it and
literally run with these topicsand have now decided to do an
honors thesis and probably go onto graduate school.
So good on you, Nina.
Thank you.
Yeah.
So the reason why we got on thistopic to talk about Being
(02:19):
scholars and being students isactually that one of Christine's
students brought up thisquestion or concern about
bisexual identity and the, Iguess, multisexual, and that was
what we're using.
But tell us a little bit abouthow that came up.
Well, the student was using theterm bisexual, and I'm sure
we'll get into breaking down thechanging terminology around this
(02:42):
multisexuality sexualorientation.
But the student in my class wasactually...
expressing an experience that Ithink is quite familiar with
individuals who identify asbisexual.
The experience being that whenshe had a boyfriend, she had
everyone saying, oh, you'restraight now.
And then when she reached apoint where she broke up with
(03:06):
the boyfriend and started datinga woman, heard, hey, you're gay
now.
But the other piece that shereally relayed was that When she
was dating her boyfriend, shefelt really rejected by the
queer community because shewasn't queer enough anymore.
So she asked if we could have anepisode on bi erasure and the
(03:30):
idea that some people think thatyour bisexuality is just a
placeholder until you choosesize, something of that nature.
But she was really strugglingbecause she felt her identity
very strongly as someone who wasbisexual and felt No matter who
she was dating, she wasn't beingher authentic self or was not
(03:52):
treated like an authentic self,whatever that means.
Which intersects beautifullywith your line of research,
Nina, which you obviouslymentioned briefly on the last
episode you were on.
But as promised, I said we weregoing to ask you more about it.
So can you tell us a little bit,first of all, just about your
academic program that you'reinvolved in and then also your
areas of focus?
And then we'll jump more intoyour research.
SPEAKER_00 (04:13):
Yeah, sure.
So right now I'm at Rhode IslandCollege.
I'm about to go into my finalyear.
I'm getting my bachelor's inpsychology and I also have a
minor in behavioral neuroscienceand queer studies.
And right now I'm doing myhonors thesis on multisexuality,
specifically about the effectsof relationship presentation and
(04:36):
connection to the LGBTQ pluscommunity on the relationship
quality of monogamousmultisexuals.
UNKNOWN (04:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
It's a little wordy, but we'll go with
SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
it.
Well, that's academia for you,right?
And that's part of why we havethis podcast, to take the nerdy
and the wordy and break it downand make it mainstream, which
leads us to our first question.
Okay, so very first, as we'velearned in research methods,
Dina, we need to operationalizethe terms we're using.
And multisexual is a new termI'm seeing in the research, and
(05:09):
I'm not entirely clear Howthat's evolved and how that's
different from bisexual or evenpansexual.
SPEAKER_00 (05:18):
Yeah.
So, I mean, multisexual can be asexual orientation label all
within itself.
But the way I'm using it in myresearch is an umbrella term to
encompass anybody who'sattracted to more than one
gender.
So that's bisexual people,pansexual people, omnisexual,
polysexual people.
plurisexual, any label thatfalls under this umbrella of I
(05:42):
am attracted to more than onegender, doesn't matter if it's
all genders or just a few, youhave to be attracted to more
than one gender, and that's whatmultisexual it is.
So it's basically the oppositeof monosexual, which are people
who are attracted to one gender.
Multisexual is anybody who'sattracted to more than one
gender.
That makes sense, actually.
That makes a lot of sense.
It sounds like
SPEAKER_01 (06:01):
it's similar to the term queer, but maybe
operationalized and a littlemore academic.
Yeah, queer falls under theumbrella, too.
So how is the how is the termmultisexual different from
omnisexual, pansexual orplurisexual?
SPEAKER_00 (06:17):
I mean, honestly, they all have such similar
definitions that they'rebasically the same thing.
But I would say it's a matter ofpreference on what people want
to use.
But academically, they are soclosely related that they could
fall under the same termterminology.
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
You know, and I kind of agree with what you
implicitly said is that academianeeds to kind of settle on some
terms for this stuff.
You know, we struggle, as youknow, some of my research is
looking at consensualnon-monogamy and in academia,
it's consensual non-monogamy.
Out in the world, it's ethicalnon-monogamy.
And so it suffers from thatsame, you know, too many words
(07:00):
that kind of mean the samething.
So I kind of like thismultisexual aspect because it's,
It takes away the piece of, sotell me which gender you like.
And the answer is more than one.
Yeah, one.
Yeah.
And I appreciate the way thatyou described it as being the
opposite of monosexual, becauseI think that makes it easier as
(07:21):
much as we don't like a binarysometimes is.
I mean, that's why the binaryexists, right?
Is because our brains work in away that we like to understand
what's on one side and what's onthe other.
So in terms of academics andyou've found in your research
that multisexual individuals aremaking up the majority of the
LGBTQ community,
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
right?
Yeah.
So I found doing my literaturereview that a Gallup poll from
last year in 2022 found thatmultisexual people make up the
majority of the community.
I think it was something like7%.
Like one in 10 millennials wouldconsider themselves multisexual
and one in five Gen Zindividuals would consider
(08:00):
themselves multisexual.
So yeah, they definitely make upthe majority of of the community
now, but they do face, I mean,the LGBTQ community as a whole
faces discrimination, but thesemultisexual individuals face a
very unique type ofdiscrimination, both from
general heterosexual quoteunquote society and within the
(08:22):
queer community because of this,the fluidity of their sexuality
and the erasure that you guystalked about within the context
of specifically monogamousrelationships.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
Yeah, so talk a little bit about that idea,
because we've talked a littlebit about bi erasure before and
identity erasure, but let'sexplain more what we mean by
that.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
so within the context of monogamy, when I say
my research is focusing onrelationship presentation, what
that means is, is therelationship queer passing or is
it straight passing?
Yeah.
you know, this can happen innon-monogamous relationships as
well, but I'm specificallylooking at this very unique
(09:09):
phenomenon within monogamy.
So if a multisexual person, uh,finds themselves within a queer
passing relationship, they couldbe considered gay.
And it's like, you're notattracting more than one gender
because, you know, let's say a,a bisexual woman is dating a
woman, then she's considered alesbian, but if she dates a man,
(09:29):
she's considered straight.
And that's what, um, I mean,when I say when I talk about
multisexual erasure or bierasure and a word that's used a
lot in the literature on thistopic is invisibilization and
that their identities areinvisibilized, invisibilized,
(09:51):
made invisible, made invisible.
So many times within my paperand I still can't pronounce it.
There's a lot of consonants atwork.
Like there's a lot happening.
So we just say erasure.
It's easier.
But, but the interesting thingis, is that when these people
are in queer passingrelationships, that they are
(10:13):
really accepted by the queercommunity, but they're, very
much discriminated against ingeneral society.
And it's like the flip side witha straight relationship,
straight passing relationshipthat they are accepted by
general heterosexual society,but within the queer community,
they're more discriminatedagainst.
SPEAKER_01 (10:33):
Yeah.
And I've definitely seen that inmy experience.
Like, you know, I have a fewfriends who identify as bisexual
and they've expressed, you know,Sometimes it's patronizing
within the queer community.
Like, I have a friend who, youknow, very much identifies as
bisexual, has dated men, hasdated women, but there are
people in the community thatstill refer to her as a
(11:02):
quote-unquote baby gay.
Yeah.
call her a baby gay.
And there is a lot of that.
The queer community is as guiltyin many ways as the straight
community is of doing thaterasure, doing that
invisibilization.
And so you're basically sayingthat the person, the individual
(11:24):
becomes defined by therelationship they're in as
opposed to the person that theyactually are.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And I think that's importantbecause One of the things that
when me and Shannon were talkingabout this episode is to really
explain to the quote, thestraight world, why this is so
(11:45):
important and to realize that ifsomething similar happened in,
so me and Shannon always like todo sports analogies, right?
So if you were playing, if youwere a tennis player and a
soccer player, but now you'replaying tennis, Does that mean
you're no longer a soccerplayer?
(12:05):
Exactly, yeah.
No.
Just because you're playing onesport this season doesn't erase
the other attraction, the otherlove you have for another sport,
how you identify.
And I think we need to explainto the broader world that this
is something that is reallycritical to who a person is.
(12:27):
And this idea of erasure...
is really a serious, has aserious mental health components
to not have your identityrecognized simply because you
choose to date one person oranother.
SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
Exactly.
And one of the psychologicalconsequences that we're seeing
within this community is thatwhen they're Identity is erased
socially.
It makes them start to questionif they are actually this sexual
orientation and they begin todoubt themselves and they're
like, well, maybe I'm notattracted to this gender and
(13:02):
maybe I am straight or maybe I'mgay or, you know, and they start
to really doubt themselves andmake some very.
And this group of people withinthe community have a really high
level of depression and anxietyand suicidal ideation because
they're like constantly beingdoubted by other people and
(13:23):
internally doubting themselvesso much.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:28):
And so that's sort of the base of your research,
right?
Is that unique stressor.
So yeah, let's talk a littlemore about that because that's
really fascinating.
And again, to Christine's point,I think is part of why this
conversation is so important tobe heard by both the straight
and the queer community is thereare unique stressors associated.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is a very unique phenomenon.
And so what I'm looking at iswhat the a relationship
presentation, queer passing orstraight passing, how that
impacts a multisexualindividual's connection to a
larger queer community.
And if it makes them feel moreconnected or less connected, how
(14:05):
can that make them, how doesthat affect the relationship
quality and sexual quality withtheir partner?
Yeah.
So we have internal stressors,which are the anxiety, the
depression, self-doubt,insecurity.
And then we have the externalstressor, which is anything from
(14:25):
anybody else.
So it's violence ordiscrimination or verbal abuse
or anything like that.
And so are both those internalstressors and external stressors
impacting how they feelconnected to their community?
And subsequently, how does thatimpact their relationship with
their partner, both romanticallyand sexually?
(14:46):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (14:47):
So are you looking, Nina, then at the...
It sounds like you're looking ata number of different outcomes
in terms of looking at bothimpact on community and impact
on the individual relationship,the partnership that somebody's
in, and how those differentstressors are positive or
(15:08):
negative.
And I'm assuming most of themare going to be negative.
Yeah.
So...
Are you looking at things likeanticipated stigma?
Are you looking more at likeactual acts of discrimination?
SPEAKER_00 (15:19):
So we're looking mostly at actual acts.
I mean, in the measures thatwe're using, some of the
questions that we are asking arelike, do you, you know, Like one
of the questions we asked, likeif you and your partner are
traveling, do you have to thinkabout where you're going to
travel to for any anticipatedlike discrimination you might
(15:42):
experience?
But mostly what we're looking atis how do how does one feel
about their queer identity?
Do they feel connected tothemselves and do they feel
comfortable calling themselves aqueer person or multisexual
person?
We're asking about theirrelationship quality with their
partner specifically.
Specifically using Rustbolt'sinvestment model, which I love,
(16:04):
and I learned that in yourclass, Christine.
Wait, you got to tell us whatthat means, because not all of
our listeners know the
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
model.
Not all of the listeners got totake that class.
Only my students
SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
know.
I mean, the investment model isa great model looking at
relationship satisfaction andcommitment using four variables
of satisfaction commitmentinvestment and quality of
alternatives and we'respecifically looking at
satisfaction and quality ofalternatives a quality of
alternatives specifically beinginteresting because um with in
(16:40):
relation to um like queernessbecause we're asking like if you
know let's take thishypothetical bisexual woman
again if she's dating um a manand she's being perceived as a
straight woman, does she feelthat if she was in a
relationship with another woman,would her queer identity be more
(17:01):
accepted?
Would that help her feel moreconnected to the queer
community?
So is she looking foralternative relationships in
order to feel more connected toher identity and to her
community?
So we're using that measure.
We're also using a We're lookingat quality of sex and we're
(17:22):
using another great measurecalled the couple level minority
scale, which is we're only look,we're not asking couples, we're
asking individuals, but we'reasking these individuals, like,
how do you and your partner moveabout in the world?
And do you have as a queerperson?
(17:43):
couple, or at least one personwho's queer, and how does the
relationship presentation affectthe way you move around the
world as a couple?
So that measure looks at that.
And then we're also asking abouttheir connectedness to the LGBTQ
community, and if they do feelconnected or if they don't.
SPEAKER_01 (18:00):
So are you trying to recruit participants?
And we can certainly, once youget this study up and running,
we can definitely share yourlink on the podcast.
Yeah.
Are you looking forparticipants, some who are in
lesbian, gay relationships andsome that are in straight
relationships?
And are you looking acrossgenders as well?
(18:22):
Well, straight presenting andqueer presenting relationships,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
So we are, our participants basically are
only...
criteria is that you know theyhave to be at least 18 they have
to be in a monogamousrelationship for at least a
month and they have to bemultisexual so it doesn't matter
if um whether they're in astraight passing or a queer
passing relationship um and iftheir gender doesn't matter um
(18:48):
they can be men or women ornon-binary or any other gender
um but because the gender of theindividuals in the relationship
doesn't really matter it's howother people perceive them which
i think is a really important
SPEAKER_01 (19:02):
point to just sort of like reiterate with like our
listeners and just like tounderstand that is it's about
the presentation because amultisexual person is
multisexual regardless ofwhether they are in a straight
presenting or queer presentingrelationship so we have to be
really careful when we'retalking about it because they're
not in a straight relationshipif they're multisexual they're
innate straight presentingrelationship thank you for that
(19:24):
application but it's interestingtoo when you talk about you know
community because i think youknow if you identify as
multisexual or queer it isreally important to you to have
that identity within the queercommunity it's you're not
looking for the identity withinthe straight community that's
sort of the default right butyou still want that inclusion in
the queer community and you knowi imagine that that's incredibly
(19:47):
difficult for someone who is ina straight passing relationship
especially a long-term straightpassing relationship to still
want to feel like they have thatcommunity and camaraderie with
other queer folks because theyare still queer they are still
multisexual regardless of theirrelationship status
SPEAKER_00 (20:03):
yeah definitely exactly um and uh am i allowed
to talk about the myths thatwe're talking about yes so you
know talking about if this myththat bisexuality is, or
multisexuality, is this middleground between straight and gay,
but it's not.
It's its own very fluid, dynamicsexuality.
(20:26):
It's not this middle point.
I consider myself bisexual, butin the terms of using the
historical definition from theBisexual Manifesto in that I'm
not just attracted to men andwomen, but I'm attracted to more
than one gender.
And for me, that includes allgenders.
So that is very similar to thepansexual definition, but I like
(20:48):
to use the term bisexual.
And so it's mainly a preferencething.
And I find myself equallyattracted to all genders.
But even though my attractionlevels are very equal, it
doesn't mean I'm still in thismidpoint.
Because some bisexual peoplecould be bisexual, but very
attracted to one gender morethan another, but it doesn't
(21:10):
mean they're, you know,monosexual.
It just means they have, it'skind of like a spectrum of
attraction.
I find myself in the middle ofthat spectrum, but not everybody
does.
And it shouldn't be considered amiddle ground between straight
and gay.
SPEAKER_01 (21:25):
Right.
And it's, it's not evennecessarily that you're quote
unquote at the middle.
It's almost that you're likeequally distributed.
That's a much better, right?
UNKNOWN (21:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
I guess it's fair to say that part of the reason you
got involved in this researchwas because of your own personal
experience.
SPEAKER_00 (21:47):
Yeah, definitely.
Um, as I've told your listenersbefore, I'm non-binary and I am,
but I'm femme presenting and Ioften get mistaken for a woman
and it doesn't make me any lessnon-binary, but it's something I
acknowledge and accept.
But, um, When I've been inrelationships with men or
(22:08):
masculine presenting people inthe past in monogamous
relationships, I've just foundmy bisexual identity completely
erased.
And my queer friends or queercommunity have similarly called
me like a baby gay or not asexperienced within the queer
community, even though I've beenout for over 10 years and have
(22:29):
had a multitude of experiencesof experiences with people of
multiple genders but when i youknow all of a sudden i'm with a
man so that means i'mheterosexual even though i'm not
you know and so um and i in youknow in my mind i knew i wasn't
the only one to ever experiencethis but i really wanted to take
a look at it from a moreresearch focused academic point
(22:52):
to and when i was looking at iti i The research exists, but
it's limited.
And so I wanted to add on to it.
And I specifically wanted tolook at this, how it is the
connection to the larger queercommunity affecting people's
internal psychological mindsets,and how is that affecting their
(23:13):
relationship with their partner?
I wanted to look at that part ofit.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
One of the things I'm curious about, Nina, too, is
does the relationship...
change a prior connection.
Like if you had a really strongsupport network in the queer
community, how that person isimpacted if they see that
switch.
You know, I think it's going tofeel more detrimental to someone
(23:41):
who is active in the communityor has you know, use the
community for some support.
And then all of a sudden feels,you know, being told they're a
baby gay simply because they'vemade this choice to be in a
straight presentingrelationship.
I almost wonder how much of itis, is about to change rather
than, you know, something else.
SPEAKER_00 (24:01):
Yeah.
That's really interesting.
Um, uh, yeah, I'm sure we'llfind as, I mean, you haven't
collected our data yet.
That's the next step, but, um,i'm sure we will see some
insight into that it's somethingi've experienced personally and
i know a lot of my otherbisexual friends have
experienced that you knowthey're single or they're with
someone of a similar same genderand but then they find
(24:24):
themselves in a straight passingrelationship and it's like it's
a switch um and it can be reallydisorienting um and really
isolating and that you know theerasure of your identity that
you've Especially if someone'sreally proud of their identity,
but then everybody starts tosay, oh, you're not that person.
It can be really hard to wrapyour head around that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Well, and we talk so much on this show in...
basically every episode wherewe've ever talked about LGBTQ
identity, we've talked about theimportance of community.
So how devastating to, you know,find a connection with someone
in a straight passingrelationship and then lose a
community that is a really hugepart of queer identity.
Um, and it's something that Ithink like, like I'm involved in
(25:12):
a lot of queer groups and it'ssomething that we have to like
check ourselves on is like,Everyone is just as valid.
Every identity in the group isjust as valid.
And you don't get to tell anyoneelse what their identity is or
how they get to live andexperience their authentic life.
Yeah.
Well, especially since thenumbers and the trends that I'm
seeing in the academic researchand surveys is like you said,
(25:33):
Nina, the bisexual percentage orthe multisexual percentage is
actually a lot larger than, youknow, quote unquote, just gay,
just lesbian.
Yeah.
Like we are talking about acommunity that, a bisexual and
multisexual community that'sgrowing.
And I'm seeing it in all of theresearch I'm doing of
(25:55):
undergraduate and graduatestudents.
Every time, we just had a seriesof mass testing surveys, data of
over 4,000 students.
And the students that areidentifying as bisexual are far,
are double or triple the amountthat are identifying as gay
SPEAKER_00 (26:13):
or lesbian.
Yeah, I mean- this statisticthat I used earlier, like 7%,
like it's, that's like theincrease over the last decade.
Like it's huge, you know?
And I think as, you know, wehave a long way to go as a
community, but as sexualfluidity and acceptance of queer
people becomes more, you know, Ihate the word, but mainstream, I
(26:37):
guess it's, and people start toexplore their sexualities more
comfortably, especially at ayoung age, We have to be able to
be open to sexual orientationsas sexuality changing over time.
Because, I mean, I've beenbisexual for 10 years or out as
(26:59):
bisexual for 10 years, butsexuality is always changing.
And I think it's okay for peopleto think they're one thing at
one point of their life and feeldifferently later down the road.
And...
And there's nothing wrong withthat.
You know, I don't see myselfever coming out as straight, but
for whatever reason, like, youknow, I could feel attracted to
(27:20):
some gender later in my lifemore than I am now.
And it's, and that'd be fine,you know, because it's,
everything's fluid.
Gender is fluid.
Sexuality is fluid.
And I think as people, youngpeople are becoming more
accepting of exploring theirsexuality, we have to be,
welcome them with open arms andtell them it's okay for your,
(27:40):
Your sexuality can be confusingand fluid, and it's fine, and
it's okay.
And whoever you date doesn'tdictate your sexuality either.
Your sexual orientation isyours, and you get to decide
what it is.
And who you date does notdictate who you are, even if the
world likes to say that.
(28:01):
Yeah, agreed.
SPEAKER_01 (28:03):
And that, I guess, brings up the question that I
have, which is just sort of ageneral question, but...
since your research is focusingspecifically on monogamous
relationships and multisexualidentifying people, what can a
supportive partner do to besupportive of someone's
multisexual identity in eithercapacity in a straight passing
(28:26):
or a queer passing relationship?
SPEAKER_00 (28:27):
Yeah.
I've been in monogamousrelationships in the past.
I know at this point in my life,I don't really consider myself
monogamous or non-monogamous.
I'm very open to either in thefluidity of it all.
But I've, something I wished forin the past in my monogamous
relationships was that as abisexual person was the
(28:51):
acknowledgement that, you know,there's this stereotype that
bisexual people will, monogamousbisexual people will cheat on
their partners because they'reattracted to more than one
gender.
And that's, I mean, I'm surethat can happen, but that can
happen in any relationship.
Yeah, any relationship is notsafe for much.
But that misconception that justbecause we're attracted to more
(29:14):
than one gender doesn't meanthat we aren't good partners or
that we're not loyal or thatwe're not kind to our partners.
And I was always upfront with mypartners that I am attracted to
more than one gender, but thatdoesn't mean I'm gonna try to
seek out someone That's not you.
(29:37):
I'm going to work within theboundaries of our relationship,
whatever they may be.
And I think there can be these,and the literature supports us,
there can be these fears ofespecially straight people.
Well, no, I won't even say that.
Monosexual people going intorelationships with multisexual
people that they are, well, theyhave...
(29:58):
They will have more STIs or STDsor that they're going to cheat
on them, that they are unkind.
And that's just not true.
All relationships have, nomatter the sexual orientations
of any of the people involved,have their downfalls.
And it's just the most importantthing is to do is to be
(30:19):
communicative with your partnerand to work out the boundaries
that work for the peopleinvolved and to trust and trust.
Be kind to one another.
And just because there's thesestereotypes and misconceptions
about multisexual people doesn'tmean those people are actually
going to enact those.
And I think that also and Ithink just a general rule of
(30:41):
thumb when you are dating aqueer person is to educate
yourself on the lives of thepeople within that community and
to educate yourself.
And whether you're queer oryourself or just an ally, you
know, be involved in thecommunity in whatever capacity
you can.
At least that's what I alwayshoped for from my partners in
(31:01):
monogamous relationships,especially when I was dating
straight people.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:06):
Yeah, I think that's a really important note, too,
that being multisexual is notmutually exclusive from being
committed and being loyal.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, it's a similar myth aroundconsensual non-monogamy.
That somehow you're lesscommitted, you're more
promiscuous, you engage inmore...
Cheating, unsafe sex, and it'sreally just the opposite.
(31:29):
It's just a different type of arelationship orientation.
Yeah, don't rely on stereotypes.
Rely on your partner.
That's a good way to put it,yeah.
And I think, I'll say from myown experience, that another way
to really validate your partneris to treat all of their
identity as valid and equal.
I definitely have had theexperience of...
(31:51):
using the bisexual label, usingthe queer label at different
points in time.
And my various partners saying,you know, well, if you're going
to cheat on me, cheat on me witha girl because that's hot.
Or I'm not worried about youcheating on me with a boy.
I'm worried about you cheatingon me with a girl because then I
think it's more serious becauseyou're dating me right now and
I'm a girl.
(32:11):
Which are really annoying andkind of immature examples, but
it does continue to invalidatethat identity if the person that
you're with thinks that one partof how you identify is more
threatening or more secure thananother.
So treat identity...
and all parts of that identityas valid.
SPEAKER_00 (32:28):
Exactly.
And going off of that point, Imean, something that I've found
in the literature is that notonly within monogamous
relationships, not only are theybeing erased by the community,
but sometimes partners will alsotry to erase their identity that
like, well, you know, going backto our lovely hypothetical
bisexual woman, you know, she'sgetting a woman.
She's like, well, you're goingto call yourself a lesbian now.
(32:50):
Right.
Or she's getting a man.
You're, you're straight now.
Right.
Because you're with me.
That doesn't happen.
As I said before, when you'redating, at least for
multisexuals who you're dating,doesn't dictate their sexuality.
They get to dictate what theirsexual orientation is and nobody
can change that.
Nobody in the community or ingeneral society or even their
(33:12):
partner.
SPEAKER_01 (33:12):
Well said.
Good stuff.
So I think we're ready to wrapthis.
So the myth that we...
came up with prior to recordingthis episode that I think we
really sussed out in ourconversation here is that
bisexual is the middle groundbetween gay and straight.
It's not.
(33:34):
Identity, sexual, gender, andotherwise exists on a spectrum
and you don't have to pick oneor the other.
And even if you do for a shorttime period, does it mean you've
picked one or the other?
Right.
It can change.
Identities exist in multitudesand we all can and do claim
multiple identities, whetherthat's soccer player and tennis
player or sometimes into onegender and sometimes into
(33:56):
another.
Those identities, they can allcoexist and they certainly don't
erase the other parts ofourselves.
And I think the last thing is tosay, to honor all of them, honor
all the identities that youhave, that your partners have,
that your friends have.
And especially for the LGBTQqueer community, honor all the
identities in your communitytoo, because your friends need
(34:19):
that love and support andacceptance, especially when
they're, you know, when theychoose to date who they date,
they need that love and supportand acceptance to continue no
matter what.
And I think that's messages thatare important for the LGBTQ
community and, of course, thecommunity at large.
Yeah, that's why we have thewhole rainbow.
That's it.
All of it.
(34:40):
We don't just get parts of therainbow.
We get the whole thing.
And you can't just pick certaincolors out of it.
You have to love the wholerainbow.
Legally.
Legally.
At least legally, according toqueer code as dictated on this
podcast.
Nina's here as a witness, right?
Exactly.
UNKNOWN (34:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:55):
So as we like to say on our show, Nina, we all try to
say it together.
That's another myth.
Put to bed.
I love it.
That's awesome.
So thank you, Nina, so much forbeing on the show again and
sharing your research with us.
We're definitely gonna have todo a follow up with you when you
get the results of yourresearch.
Yeah, definitely.
I'd love to come back.
(35:16):
And give us the give us the linkwhen it's live and we will share
it and I will share it among mycommunities as well.
And we can get this researchmove forward because it's
certainly really important andnecessary to keep our identities
whole.
Yeah.
To fight back against erasurewith representation and
research.
SPEAKER_00 (35:37):
Yeah.
I love it.
SPEAKER_01 (35:40):
We love it.
All right.
Thanks so much, Nina.
And for all of our listeners,remember to tune in next week
for another study session of SexEd Debunked.
Also continue to submit themyths and topics you would like
us to discuss.
We want to know what you want toknow.
And for now, Have a great restof May.
All right.
Masturbation May.
Masturbation May.
Go for it.
Love alliteration.
(36:00):
All right.
Thanks.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in for thisweek's episode of Sex Ed
Debunked.
During the course of ourpodcast, we have limited time
together, which means thatunfortunately many identities,
groups, and movements may not berepresented each week.
(36:22):
The field of sexuality andgender orientations, identities,
and behaviors are changing andgrowing rapidly, and we remain
committed to being as inclusiveas possible.
Please remember that all of us,including us, are learning in
this area and may occasionallyslip up.
We ask that we all continue tobe kind to one another so that
we can create a truly inclusiveand accepting environment.
(36:43):
As always, If you have anyquestions or comments, please
feel free to reach out to us atSex Ed Debunked on Instagram,
Facebook and Twitter.
Sex Ed Debunked is produced byTrailblaze Media in Providence,
Rhode Island.
Our sound producer is EzraWinters with production
assistance from Shea
SPEAKER_00 (36:59):
Weintraub.
Music.
SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
Hi, this is Sex Ed Debunked, a cross-generational
podcast hosted bymother-daughter duo Christine
and Shannon Curley.
Every episode, we tackle a newmyth about sex, sexuality, and
pleasure and use research andexpert insights to debunk
stereotypes and misinformationfrom the bedroom and beyond.
In 2022, we won the AmericanAssociation of Sexuality
Educators, Counselors, andTherapists Award for Best
(00:24):
Podcast and also managed to nottotally freak out our family and
friends along the way.
We believe in healthy,sex-positive, pleasure-focused
sex education backed by Hi,welcome to Sex Ed Debunked, a
cross-generational podcast aboutsex positivity, sexual health,
(00:51):
and the Backstreet Boys' queeranthem, Bye Bye Bye.
You said that last time we didthe bisexuality episode.
That's because I'm reallyjoining up this trending as a
fact that it's actually aboutbisexuals.
You do you, Shannon.
I mean, yeah.
It is Masturbation May.
Stop it.
That's not today's topic.
Today's topic is notMasturbation May.
(01:13):
Today's topic is a subject wehave talked about before,
identity.
But today we're talkingspecifically about bisexual and
multisexual identity, which is aterm that I'm really curious to
explore because it seems to be anew term in academia right now.
Yeah, I haven't heard of it.
So the cool thing is that wehave brought in some help for
(01:34):
our discussion, as we love to dowhen we are not, in fact,
experts on the topics we'retalking about.
So we are excited to welcomeback Nina Carbone, who some of
you may remember from ourepisode on non-binary identities
and experiences.
So welcome back to the show,Nina.
Hi, it's good to be here.
Good to have you back.
And you and Christine have somehistory, right?
Well, Nina was a student ofmine, one of my most excellent
(01:56):
students, actually, in ourresearch methods.
And we talked a lot about yourpotential research in that
class.
And it's really exciting to knowthat you have taken it and
literally run with these topicsand have now decided to do an
honors thesis and probably go onto graduate school.
So good on you, Nina.
Thank you.
Yeah.
So the reason why we got on thistopic to talk about Being
(02:19):
scholars and being students isactually that one of Christine's
students brought up thisquestion or concern about
bisexual identity and the, Iguess, multisexual, and that was
what we're using.
But tell us a little bit abouthow that came up.
Well, the student was using theterm bisexual, and I'm sure
we'll get into breaking down thechanging terminology around this
(02:42):
multisexuality sexualorientation.
But the student in my class wasactually...
expressing an experience that Ithink is quite familiar with
individuals who identify asbisexual.
The experience being that whenshe had a boyfriend, she had
everyone saying, oh, you'restraight now.
And then when she reached apoint where she broke up with
(03:06):
the boyfriend and started datinga woman, heard, hey, you're gay
now.
But the other piece that shereally relayed was that When she
was dating her boyfriend, shefelt really rejected by the
queer community because shewasn't queer enough anymore.
So she asked if we could have anepisode on bi erasure and the
(03:30):
idea that some people think thatyour bisexuality is just a
placeholder until you choosesize, something of that nature.
But she was really strugglingbecause she felt her identity
very strongly as someone who wasbisexual and felt No matter who
she was dating, she wasn't beingher authentic self or was not
(03:52):
treated like an authentic self,whatever that means.
Which intersects beautifullywith your line of research,
Nina, which you obviouslymentioned briefly on the last
episode you were on.
But as promised, I said we weregoing to ask you more about it.
So can you tell us a little bit,first of all, just about your
academic program that you'reinvolved in and then also your
areas of focus?
And then we'll jump more intoyour research.
SPEAKER_00 (04:13):
Yeah, sure.
So right now I'm at Rhode IslandCollege.
I'm about to go into my finalyear.
I'm getting my bachelor's inpsychology and I also have a
minor in behavioral neuroscienceand queer studies.
And right now I'm doing myhonors thesis on multisexuality,
specifically about the effectsof relationship presentation and
(04:36):
connection to the LGBTQ pluscommunity on the relationship
quality of monogamousmultisexuals.
UNKNOWN (04:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
It's a little wordy, but we'll go with
SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
it.
Well, that's academia for you,right?
And that's part of why we havethis podcast, to take the nerdy
and the wordy and break it downand make it mainstream, which
leads us to our first question.
Okay, so very first, as we'velearned in research methods,
Dina, we need to operationalizethe terms we're using.
And multisexual is a new termI'm seeing in the research, and
(05:09):
I'm not entirely clear Howthat's evolved and how that's
different from bisexual or evenpansexual.
SPEAKER_00 (05:18):
Yeah.
So, I mean, multisexual can be asexual orientation label all
within itself.
But the way I'm using it in myresearch is an umbrella term to
encompass anybody who'sattracted to more than one
gender.
So that's bisexual people,pansexual people, omnisexual,
polysexual people.
plurisexual, any label thatfalls under this umbrella of I
(05:42):
am attracted to more than onegender, doesn't matter if it's
all genders or just a few, youhave to be attracted to more
than one gender, and that's whatmultisexual it is.
So it's basically the oppositeof monosexual, which are people
who are attracted to one gender.
Multisexual is anybody who'sattracted to more than one
gender.
That makes sense, actually.
That makes a lot of sense.
It sounds like
SPEAKER_01 (06:01):
it's similar to the term queer, but maybe
operationalized and a littlemore academic.
Yeah, queer falls under theumbrella, too.
So how is the how is the termmultisexual different from
omnisexual, pansexual orplurisexual?
SPEAKER_00 (06:17):
I mean, honestly, they all have such similar
definitions that they'rebasically the same thing.
But I would say it's a matter ofpreference on what people want
to use.
But academically, they are soclosely related that they could
fall under the same termterminology.
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
You know, and I kind of agree with what you
implicitly said is that academianeeds to kind of settle on some
terms for this stuff.
You know, we struggle, as youknow, some of my research is
looking at consensualnon-monogamy and in academia,
it's consensual non-monogamy.
Out in the world, it's ethicalnon-monogamy.
And so it suffers from thatsame, you know, too many words
(07:00):
that kind of mean the samething.
So I kind of like thismultisexual aspect because it's,
It takes away the piece of, sotell me which gender you like.
And the answer is more than one.
Yeah, one.
Yeah.
And I appreciate the way thatyou described it as being the
opposite of monosexual, becauseI think that makes it easier as
(07:21):
much as we don't like a binarysometimes is.
I mean, that's why the binaryexists, right?
Is because our brains work in away that we like to understand
what's on one side and what's onthe other.
So in terms of academics andyou've found in your research
that multisexual individuals aremaking up the majority of the
LGBTQ community,
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
right?
Yeah.
So I found doing my literaturereview that a Gallup poll from
last year in 2022 found thatmultisexual people make up the
majority of the community.
I think it was something like7%.
Like one in 10 millennials wouldconsider themselves multisexual
and one in five Gen Zindividuals would consider
(08:00):
themselves multisexual.
So yeah, they definitely make upthe majority of of the community
now, but they do face, I mean,the LGBTQ community as a whole
faces discrimination, but thesemultisexual individuals face a
very unique type ofdiscrimination, both from
general heterosexual quoteunquote society and within the
(08:22):
queer community because of this,the fluidity of their sexuality
and the erasure that you guystalked about within the context
of specifically monogamousrelationships.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
Yeah, so talk a little bit about that idea,
because we've talked a littlebit about bi erasure before and
identity erasure, but let'sexplain more what we mean by
that.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
so within the context of monogamy, when I say
my research is focusing onrelationship presentation, what
that means is, is therelationship queer passing or is
it straight passing?
Yeah.
you know, this can happen innon-monogamous relationships as
well, but I'm specificallylooking at this very unique
(09:09):
phenomenon within monogamy.
So if a multisexual person, uh,finds themselves within a queer
passing relationship, they couldbe considered gay.
And it's like, you're notattracting more than one gender
because, you know, let's say a,a bisexual woman is dating a
woman, then she's considered alesbian, but if she dates a man,
(09:29):
she's considered straight.
And that's what, um, I mean,when I say when I talk about
multisexual erasure or bierasure and a word that's used a
lot in the literature on thistopic is invisibilization and
that their identities areinvisibilized, invisibilized,
(09:51):
made invisible, made invisible.
So many times within my paperand I still can't pronounce it.
There's a lot of consonants atwork.
Like there's a lot happening.
So we just say erasure.
It's easier.
But, but the interesting thingis, is that when these people
are in queer passingrelationships, that they are
(10:13):
really accepted by the queercommunity, but they're, very
much discriminated against ingeneral society.
And it's like the flip side witha straight relationship,
straight passing relationshipthat they are accepted by
general heterosexual society,but within the queer community,
they're more discriminatedagainst.
SPEAKER_01 (10:33):
Yeah.
And I've definitely seen that inmy experience.
Like, you know, I have a fewfriends who identify as bisexual
and they've expressed, you know,Sometimes it's patronizing
within the queer community.
Like, I have a friend who, youknow, very much identifies as
bisexual, has dated men, hasdated women, but there are
people in the community thatstill refer to her as a
(11:02):
quote-unquote baby gay.
Yeah.
call her a baby gay.
And there is a lot of that.
The queer community is as guiltyin many ways as the straight
community is of doing thaterasure, doing that
invisibilization.
And so you're basically sayingthat the person, the individual
(11:24):
becomes defined by therelationship they're in as
opposed to the person that theyactually are.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And I think that's importantbecause One of the things that
when me and Shannon were talkingabout this episode is to really
explain to the quote, thestraight world, why this is so
(11:45):
important and to realize that ifsomething similar happened in,
so me and Shannon always like todo sports analogies, right?
So if you were playing, if youwere a tennis player and a
soccer player, but now you'replaying tennis, Does that mean
you're no longer a soccerplayer?
(12:05):
Exactly, yeah.
No.
Just because you're playing onesport this season doesn't erase
the other attraction, the otherlove you have for another sport,
how you identify.
And I think we need to explainto the broader world that this
is something that is reallycritical to who a person is.
(12:27):
And this idea of erasure...
is really a serious, has aserious mental health components
to not have your identityrecognized simply because you
choose to date one person oranother.
SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
Exactly.
And one of the psychologicalconsequences that we're seeing
within this community is thatwhen they're Identity is erased
socially.
It makes them start to questionif they are actually this sexual
orientation and they begin todoubt themselves and they're
like, well, maybe I'm notattracted to this gender and
(13:02):
maybe I am straight or maybe I'mgay or, you know, and they start
to really doubt themselves andmake some very.
And this group of people withinthe community have a really high
level of depression and anxietyand suicidal ideation because
they're like constantly beingdoubted by other people and
(13:23):
internally doubting themselvesso much.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:28):
And so that's sort of the base of your research,
right?
Is that unique stressor.
So yeah, let's talk a littlemore about that because that's
really fascinating.
And again, to Christine's point,I think is part of why this
conversation is so important tobe heard by both the straight
and the queer community is thereare unique stressors associated.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is a very unique phenomenon.
And so what I'm looking at iswhat the a relationship
presentation, queer passing orstraight passing, how that
impacts a multisexualindividual's connection to a
larger queer community.
And if it makes them feel moreconnected or less connected, how
(14:05):
can that make them, how doesthat affect the relationship
quality and sexual quality withtheir partner?
Yeah.
So we have internal stressors,which are the anxiety, the
depression, self-doubt,insecurity.
And then we have the externalstressor, which is anything from
(14:25):
anybody else.
So it's violence ordiscrimination or verbal abuse
or anything like that.
And so are both those internalstressors and external stressors
impacting how they feelconnected to their community?
And subsequently, how does thatimpact their relationship with
their partner, both romanticallyand sexually?
(14:46):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (14:47):
So are you looking, Nina, then at the...
It sounds like you're looking ata number of different outcomes
in terms of looking at bothimpact on community and impact
on the individual relationship,the partnership that somebody's
in, and how those differentstressors are positive or
(15:08):
negative.
And I'm assuming most of themare going to be negative.
Yeah.
So...
Are you looking at things likeanticipated stigma?
Are you looking more at likeactual acts of discrimination?
SPEAKER_00 (15:19):
So we're looking mostly at actual acts.
I mean, in the measures thatwe're using, some of the
questions that we are asking arelike, do you, you know, Like one
of the questions we asked, likeif you and your partner are
traveling, do you have to thinkabout where you're going to
travel to for any anticipatedlike discrimination you might
(15:42):
experience?
But mostly what we're looking atis how do how does one feel
about their queer identity?
Do they feel connected tothemselves and do they feel
comfortable calling themselves aqueer person or multisexual
person?
We're asking about theirrelationship quality with their
partner specifically.
Specifically using Rustbolt'sinvestment model, which I love,
(16:04):
and I learned that in yourclass, Christine.
Wait, you got to tell us whatthat means, because not all of
our listeners know the
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
model.
Not all of the listeners got totake that class.
Only my students
SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
know.
I mean, the investment model isa great model looking at
relationship satisfaction andcommitment using four variables
of satisfaction commitmentinvestment and quality of
alternatives and we'respecifically looking at
satisfaction and quality ofalternatives a quality of
alternatives specifically beinginteresting because um with in
(16:40):
relation to um like queernessbecause we're asking like if you
know let's take thishypothetical bisexual woman
again if she's dating um a manand she's being perceived as a
straight woman, does she feelthat if she was in a
relationship with another woman,would her queer identity be more
(17:01):
accepted?
Would that help her feel moreconnected to the queer
community?
So is she looking foralternative relationships in
order to feel more connected toher identity and to her
community?
So we're using that measure.
We're also using a We're lookingat quality of sex and we're
(17:22):
using another great measurecalled the couple level minority
scale, which is we're only look,we're not asking couples, we're
asking individuals, but we'reasking these individuals, like,
how do you and your partner moveabout in the world?
And do you have as a queerperson?
(17:43):
couple, or at least one personwho's queer, and how does the
relationship presentation affectthe way you move around the
world as a couple?
So that measure looks at that.
And then we're also asking abouttheir connectedness to the LGBTQ
community, and if they do feelconnected or if they don't.
SPEAKER_01 (18:00):
So are you trying to recruit participants?
And we can certainly, once youget this study up and running,
we can definitely share yourlink on the podcast.
Yeah.
Are you looking forparticipants, some who are in
lesbian, gay relationships andsome that are in straight
relationships?
And are you looking acrossgenders as well?
(18:22):
Well, straight presenting andqueer presenting relationships,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
So we are, our participants basically are
only...
criteria is that you know theyhave to be at least 18 they have
to be in a monogamousrelationship for at least a
month and they have to bemultisexual so it doesn't matter
if um whether they're in astraight passing or a queer
passing relationship um and iftheir gender doesn't matter um
(18:48):
they can be men or women ornon-binary or any other gender
um but because the gender of theindividuals in the relationship
doesn't really matter it's howother people perceive them which
i think is a really important
SPEAKER_01 (19:02):
point to just sort of like reiterate with like our
listeners and just like tounderstand that is it's about
the presentation because amultisexual person is
multisexual regardless ofwhether they are in a straight
presenting or queer presentingrelationship so we have to be
really careful when we'retalking about it because they're
not in a straight relationshipif they're multisexual they're
innate straight presentingrelationship thank you for that
(19:24):
application but it's interestingtoo when you talk about you know
community because i think youknow if you identify as
multisexual or queer it isreally important to you to have
that identity within the queercommunity it's you're not
looking for the identity withinthe straight community that's
sort of the default right butyou still want that inclusion in
the queer community and you knowi imagine that that's incredibly
(19:47):
difficult for someone who is ina straight passing relationship
especially a long-term straightpassing relationship to still
want to feel like they have thatcommunity and camaraderie with
other queer folks because theyare still queer they are still
multisexual regardless of theirrelationship status
SPEAKER_00 (20:03):
yeah definitely exactly um and uh am i allowed
to talk about the myths thatwe're talking about yes so you
know talking about if this myththat bisexuality is, or
multisexuality, is this middleground between straight and gay,
but it's not.
It's its own very fluid, dynamicsexuality.
(20:26):
It's not this middle point.
I consider myself bisexual, butin the terms of using the
historical definition from theBisexual Manifesto in that I'm
not just attracted to men andwomen, but I'm attracted to more
than one gender.
And for me, that includes allgenders.
So that is very similar to thepansexual definition, but I like
(20:48):
to use the term bisexual.
And so it's mainly a preferencething.
And I find myself equallyattracted to all genders.
But even though my attractionlevels are very equal, it
doesn't mean I'm still in thismidpoint.
Because some bisexual peoplecould be bisexual, but very
attracted to one gender morethan another, but it doesn't
(21:10):
mean they're, you know,monosexual.
It just means they have, it'skind of like a spectrum of
attraction.
I find myself in the middle ofthat spectrum, but not everybody
does.
And it shouldn't be considered amiddle ground between straight
and gay.
SPEAKER_01 (21:25):
Right.
And it's, it's not evennecessarily that you're quote
unquote at the middle.
It's almost that you're likeequally distributed.
That's a much better, right?
UNKNOWN (21:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
I guess it's fair to say that part of the reason you
got involved in this researchwas because of your own personal
experience.
SPEAKER_00 (21:47):
Yeah, definitely.
Um, as I've told your listenersbefore, I'm non-binary and I am,
but I'm femme presenting and Ioften get mistaken for a woman
and it doesn't make me any lessnon-binary, but it's something I
acknowledge and accept.
But, um, When I've been inrelationships with men or
(22:08):
masculine presenting people inthe past in monogamous
relationships, I've just foundmy bisexual identity completely
erased.
And my queer friends or queercommunity have similarly called
me like a baby gay or not asexperienced within the queer
community, even though I've beenout for over 10 years and have
(22:29):
had a multitude of experiencesof experiences with people of
multiple genders but when i youknow all of a sudden i'm with a
man so that means i'mheterosexual even though i'm not
you know and so um and i in youknow in my mind i knew i wasn't
the only one to ever experiencethis but i really wanted to take
a look at it from a moreresearch focused academic point
(22:52):
to and when i was looking at iti i The research exists, but
it's limited.
And so I wanted to add on to it.
And I specifically wanted tolook at this, how it is the
connection to the larger queercommunity affecting people's
internal psychological mindsets,and how is that affecting their
(23:13):
relationship with their partner?
I wanted to look at that part ofit.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
One of the things I'm curious about, Nina, too, is
does the relationship...
change a prior connection.
Like if you had a really strongsupport network in the queer
community, how that person isimpacted if they see that
switch.
You know, I think it's going tofeel more detrimental to someone
(23:41):
who is active in the communityor has you know, use the
community for some support.
And then all of a sudden feels,you know, being told they're a
baby gay simply because they'vemade this choice to be in a
straight presentingrelationship.
I almost wonder how much of itis, is about to change rather
than, you know, something else.
SPEAKER_00 (24:01):
Yeah.
That's really interesting.
Um, uh, yeah, I'm sure we'llfind as, I mean, you haven't
collected our data yet.
That's the next step, but, um,i'm sure we will see some
insight into that it's somethingi've experienced personally and
i know a lot of my otherbisexual friends have
experienced that you knowthey're single or they're with
someone of a similar same genderand but then they find
(24:24):
themselves in a straight passingrelationship and it's like it's
a switch um and it can be reallydisorienting um and really
isolating and that you know theerasure of your identity that
you've Especially if someone'sreally proud of their identity,
but then everybody starts tosay, oh, you're not that person.
It can be really hard to wrapyour head around that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Well, and we talk so much on this show in...
basically every episode wherewe've ever talked about LGBTQ
identity, we've talked about theimportance of community.
So how devastating to, you know,find a connection with someone
in a straight passingrelationship and then lose a
community that is a really hugepart of queer identity.
Um, and it's something that Ithink like, like I'm involved in
(25:12):
a lot of queer groups and it'ssomething that we have to like
check ourselves on is like,Everyone is just as valid.
Every identity in the group isjust as valid.
And you don't get to tell anyoneelse what their identity is or
how they get to live andexperience their authentic life.
Yeah.
Well, especially since thenumbers and the trends that I'm
seeing in the academic researchand surveys is like you said,
(25:33):
Nina, the bisexual percentage orthe multisexual percentage is
actually a lot larger than, youknow, quote unquote, just gay,
just lesbian.
Yeah.
Like we are talking about acommunity that, a bisexual and
multisexual community that'sgrowing.
And I'm seeing it in all of theresearch I'm doing of
(25:55):
undergraduate and graduatestudents.
Every time, we just had a seriesof mass testing surveys, data of
over 4,000 students.
And the students that areidentifying as bisexual are far,
are double or triple the amountthat are identifying as gay
SPEAKER_00 (26:13):
or lesbian.
Yeah, I mean- this statisticthat I used earlier, like 7%,
like it's, that's like theincrease over the last decade.
Like it's huge, you know?
And I think as, you know, wehave a long way to go as a
community, but as sexualfluidity and acceptance of queer
people becomes more, you know, Ihate the word, but mainstream, I
(26:37):
guess it's, and people start toexplore their sexualities more
comfortably, especially at ayoung age, We have to be able to
be open to sexual orientationsas sexuality changing over time.
Because, I mean, I've beenbisexual for 10 years or out as
(26:59):
bisexual for 10 years, butsexuality is always changing.
And I think it's okay for peopleto think they're one thing at
one point of their life and feeldifferently later down the road.
And...
And there's nothing wrong withthat.
You know, I don't see myselfever coming out as straight, but
for whatever reason, like, youknow, I could feel attracted to
(27:20):
some gender later in my lifemore than I am now.
And it's, and that'd be fine,you know, because it's,
everything's fluid.
Gender is fluid.
Sexuality is fluid.
And I think as people, youngpeople are becoming more
accepting of exploring theirsexuality, we have to be,
welcome them with open arms andtell them it's okay for your,
(27:40):
Your sexuality can be confusingand fluid, and it's fine, and
it's okay.
And whoever you date doesn'tdictate your sexuality either.
Your sexual orientation isyours, and you get to decide
what it is.
And who you date does notdictate who you are, even if the
world likes to say that.
(28:01):
Yeah, agreed.
SPEAKER_01 (28:03):
And that, I guess, brings up the question that I
have, which is just sort of ageneral question, but...
since your research is focusingspecifically on monogamous
relationships and multisexualidentifying people, what can a
supportive partner do to besupportive of someone's
multisexual identity in eithercapacity in a straight passing
(28:26):
or a queer passing relationship?
SPEAKER_00 (28:27):
Yeah.
I've been in monogamousrelationships in the past.
I know at this point in my life,I don't really consider myself
monogamous or non-monogamous.
I'm very open to either in thefluidity of it all.
But I've, something I wished forin the past in my monogamous
relationships was that as abisexual person was the
(28:51):
acknowledgement that, you know,there's this stereotype that
bisexual people will, monogamousbisexual people will cheat on
their partners because they'reattracted to more than one
gender.
And that's, I mean, I'm surethat can happen, but that can
happen in any relationship.
Yeah, any relationship is notsafe for much.
But that misconception that justbecause we're attracted to more
(29:14):
than one gender doesn't meanthat we aren't good partners or
that we're not loyal or thatwe're not kind to our partners.
And I was always upfront with mypartners that I am attracted to
more than one gender, but thatdoesn't mean I'm gonna try to
seek out someone That's not you.
(29:37):
I'm going to work within theboundaries of our relationship,
whatever they may be.
And I think there can be these,and the literature supports us,
there can be these fears ofespecially straight people.
Well, no, I won't even say that.
Monosexual people going intorelationships with multisexual
people that they are, well, theyhave...
(29:58):
They will have more STIs or STDsor that they're going to cheat
on them, that they are unkind.
And that's just not true.
All relationships have, nomatter the sexual orientations
of any of the people involved,have their downfalls.
And it's just the most importantthing is to do is to be
(30:19):
communicative with your partnerand to work out the boundaries
that work for the peopleinvolved and to trust and trust.
Be kind to one another.
And just because there's thesestereotypes and misconceptions
about multisexual people doesn'tmean those people are actually
going to enact those.
And I think that also and Ithink just a general rule of
(30:41):
thumb when you are dating aqueer person is to educate
yourself on the lives of thepeople within that community and
to educate yourself.
And whether you're queer oryourself or just an ally, you
know, be involved in thecommunity in whatever capacity
you can.
At least that's what I alwayshoped for from my partners in
(31:01):
monogamous relationships,especially when I was dating
straight people.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:06):
Yeah, I think that's a really important note, too,
that being multisexual is notmutually exclusive from being
committed and being loyal.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, it's a similar myth aroundconsensual non-monogamy.
That somehow you're lesscommitted, you're more
promiscuous, you engage inmore...
Cheating, unsafe sex, and it'sreally just the opposite.
(31:29):
It's just a different type of arelationship orientation.
Yeah, don't rely on stereotypes.
Rely on your partner.
That's a good way to put it,yeah.
And I think, I'll say from myown experience, that another way
to really validate your partneris to treat all of their
identity as valid and equal.
I definitely have had theexperience of...
(31:51):
using the bisexual label, usingthe queer label at different
points in time.
And my various partners saying,you know, well, if you're going
to cheat on me, cheat on me witha girl because that's hot.
Or I'm not worried about youcheating on me with a boy.
I'm worried about you cheatingon me with a girl because then I
think it's more serious becauseyou're dating me right now and
I'm a girl.
(32:11):
Which are really annoying andkind of immature examples, but
it does continue to invalidatethat identity if the person that
you're with thinks that one partof how you identify is more
threatening or more secure thananother.
So treat identity...
and all parts of that identityas valid.
SPEAKER_00 (32:28):
Exactly.
And going off of that point, Imean, something that I've found
in the literature is that notonly within monogamous
relationships, not only are theybeing erased by the community,
but sometimes partners will alsotry to erase their identity that
like, well, you know, going backto our lovely hypothetical
bisexual woman, you know, she'sgetting a woman.
She's like, well, you're goingto call yourself a lesbian now.
(32:50):
Right.
Or she's getting a man.
You're, you're straight now.
Right.
Because you're with me.
That doesn't happen.
As I said before, when you'redating, at least for
multisexuals who you're dating,doesn't dictate their sexuality.
They get to dictate what theirsexual orientation is and nobody
can change that.
Nobody in the community or ingeneral society or even their
(33:12):
partner.
SPEAKER_01 (33:12):
Well said.
Good stuff.
So I think we're ready to wrapthis.
So the myth that we...
came up with prior to recordingthis episode that I think we
really sussed out in ourconversation here is that
bisexual is the middle groundbetween gay and straight.
It's not.
(33:34):
Identity, sexual, gender, andotherwise exists on a spectrum
and you don't have to pick oneor the other.
And even if you do for a shorttime period, does it mean you've
picked one or the other?
Right.
It can change.
Identities exist in multitudesand we all can and do claim
multiple identities, whetherthat's soccer player and tennis
player or sometimes into onegender and sometimes into
(33:56):
another.
Those identities, they can allcoexist and they certainly don't
erase the other parts ofourselves.
And I think the last thing is tosay, to honor all of them, honor
all the identities that youhave, that your partners have,
that your friends have.
And especially for the LGBTQqueer community, honor all the
identities in your communitytoo, because your friends need
(34:19):
that love and support andacceptance, especially when
they're, you know, when theychoose to date who they date,
they need that love and supportand acceptance to continue no
matter what.
And I think that's messages thatare important for the LGBTQ
community and, of course, thecommunity at large.
Yeah, that's why we have thewhole rainbow.
That's it.
All of it.
(34:40):
We don't just get parts of therainbow.
We get the whole thing.
And you can't just pick certaincolors out of it.
You have to love the wholerainbow.
Legally.
Legally.
At least legally, according toqueer code as dictated on this
podcast.
Nina's here as a witness, right?
Exactly.
UNKNOWN (34:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:55):
So as we like to say on our show, Nina, we all try to
say it together.
That's another myth.
Put to bed.
I love it.
That's awesome.
So thank you, Nina, so much forbeing on the show again and
sharing your research with us.
We're definitely gonna have todo a follow up with you when you
get the results of yourresearch.
Yeah, definitely.
I'd love to come back.
(35:16):
And give us the give us the linkwhen it's live and we will share
it and I will share it among mycommunities as well.
And we can get this researchmove forward because it's
certainly really important andnecessary to keep our identities
whole.
Yeah.
To fight back against erasurewith representation and
research.
SPEAKER_00 (35:37):
Yeah.
I love it.
SPEAKER_01 (35:40):
We love it.
All right.
Thanks so much, Nina.
And for all of our listeners,remember to tune in next week
for another study session of SexEd Debunked.
Also continue to submit themyths and topics you would like
us to discuss.
We want to know what you want toknow.
And for now, Have a great restof May.
All right.
Masturbation May.
Masturbation May.
Go for it.
Love alliteration.
(36:00):
All right.
Thanks.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in for thisweek's episode of Sex Ed
Debunked.
During the course of ourpodcast, we have limited time
together, which means thatunfortunately many identities,
groups, and movements may not berepresented each week.
(36:22):
The field of sexuality andgender orientations, identities,
and behaviors are changing andgrowing rapidly, and we remain
committed to being as inclusiveas possible.
Please remember that all of us,including us, are learning in
this area and may occasionallyslip up.
We ask that we all continue tobe kind to one another so that
we can create a truly inclusiveand accepting environment.
(36:43):
As always, If you have anyquestions or comments, please
feel free to reach out to us atSex Ed Debunked on Instagram,
Facebook and Twitter.
Sex Ed Debunked is produced byTrailblaze Media in Providence,
Rhode Island.
Our sound producer is EzraWinters with production
assistance from Shea
SPEAKER_00 (36:59):
Weintraub.
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