April 15, 2025 • 36 mins
When the unthinkable happens and your dog is attacked, how do you respond? This question drove Amanda to develop practical defense strategies after her young spaniel Harley was cornered and attacked by two off-leash dogs on what should have been a routine walk. The trauma affected both of them deeply, but their journey of recovery offers powerful lessons for all dog owners.
Amanda and Lauren dive into a surprisingly simple yet effective tool for dog defense: an umbrella. This everyday item serves three crucial functions - breaking visual contact between dogs, creating a physical barrier, and startling approaching threats without causing harm. They walk through the step-by-step process of training your dog to work with this tool through a reliable "middle" position and careful desensitization exercises.
What makes this conversation particularly valuable is the focus on recovery after traumatic incidents. Both trainers share personal stories of helping their dogs overcome frightening encounters, emphasizing how different dogs respond based on their genetics, temperament, and learning history. The distinction between behavior training (cued responses) and concept training (uncued choices) illuminates why games-based approaches build true resilience in our canine companions.
Whether your dog has experienced trauma or you simply want to be prepared, the defense and recovery strategies shared will help you become a more effective advocate for your dog's physical and emotional wellbeing. By focusing on optimism-building games and creating opportunities for calm, you'll develop a dog who can navigate challenging situations with confidence and quickly recover from setbacks when they occur.
If you’re loving the podcast, you’ll love our NEW Sexier than a Squirrel Dog Training Challenge even more! Get transformational dog training today for only £27!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel
podcast.
I'm Lauren Langman.
I'm one of the world's leadingdog trainers, and it's my
mission to help owners becometheir dog's top priority.
In each episode, you'lldiscover how to gain trust and
communicate with your dog likenever before, creating
unbreakable bonds that make youthe most exciting part of their
world.
Now, sometimes, bad thingshappen, and Amanda and I today
(00:32):
are going to be talking abouthow to defend our dogs, because
we know that, whilst we mightnot be able to control
everything that leads up to anevent, actually we can control
what we do with it in the future, and we can also control how we
prepare our dogs.
Welcome, amanda, and I'mexcited to talk to you about
this.
It's empowering for owners andtherefore empowering for our
(00:54):
dogs too, right.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
And thank you, lauren.
I always love sharing myexperiences.
There's always so much learningthat's out there in the world.
And you know, with the defendyour dog idea here, this was
born out of a really nastyincident that I experienced with
my young spaniel.
You know, you build optimism,you want your dog to look at the
world as a wonderful place.
(01:15):
And then you're, you knowyou're on the trails and all of
a sudden dogs come after yourdog.
You don't understand why, butyou have to think quickly in the
moment.
And the specific situation thatactually triggered this was I
had just had a wonderfultraining session with Harley.
He's training as a gun dog andof course we're using lots and
lots of games for this and havereally worked to build up his
(01:38):
optimism.
So he's absolutely wonderful towork with.
And at the end of our littlesession we were working on a you
know it's a public area but nota public area.
So you know we there weren't alot of dogs around and at the
end of that we just went for alittle walk on the trails and
I've been down these trailsoften and I often take my
terrier down it, so you knowdown them.
(01:58):
So I'm, you know they're fairlysafe to me.
So I thought, because as wewere turning around to come back
, these two dogs appeared out ofnowhere and they launched on
him.
Now, fortunately, harley has apretty much you never want to
say a hundred percent, but a99.9% recall.
So he's really very good andthat's required If he's going to
(02:21):
be a gun dog.
He has to be able to disengageand come back to me.
But these other two dogs justcame down on him and there was
no one to be seen, no owner insight, and they cornered him,
flipped him over in a ditchwhich was full of water and the
only thing sticking out was hisnose.
And of course I just thoughtyou know they say don't scream,
but I'm screaming because Idon't know where this person is.
(02:42):
There's got to be an ownerattached to these dogs and if I
don't sound panicked, they'renot going to respond.
And so I did that and, you know, managed to get him.
The owner finally showed up andtook the dogs.
Now it was horrific, as you canimagine, and it actually took
me a week before I could walkdown those trails again, because
(03:02):
I was traumatized, let alone mydog.
Now what I want to talk abouthere is, first of all, what I
learned in terms of how I canprotect him in the future with
this.
But, even more important, whatdid I do afterwards?
Because this is an event thattraumatized both of us and how
we respond in the end is massiveboth of us, and how we respond
(03:25):
in the end is massive.
So immediately after theincident, you know, I managed to
speak to the owner of the dogand I felt badly for her and
it's really important that werecognize that not all owners
are going to blow you off andsay there's a problem with your
dog.
This individual was reallyshocked and horrified by her
dog's behaviors, and so wemanaged to have a conversation
and I did something that Ididn't.
(03:48):
I would never recommend doingthis, but in the end I'm glad I
did, and the reason why isbecause the owner didn't see
what happened.
But when she said, well, let'ssee if there'll be friends.
So she took one of the two dogsand I'm going.
This is a bad idea.
So I just held on to Harley andher dog just went after him.
(04:08):
They were on leashes, so therewas no contact.
I managed to step back, playthat wonderful game called
Rewind.
Have Harley come back to me,pick him up and get out of there
.
But what turned out to beimportant in that case was she
saw what happened.
To be important in that casewas she saw what happened.
Because what I didn't expectwas that this situation would
(04:29):
actually come back not not at me, but would come back in a
really weird way because itturns out this individual was
teaching puppy classes at ourlocal club and taking those dogs
to the puppy classes, and oneof those dogs is apparently a
certified service dog.
So horrific, nasty situationwith all kinds of interesting
(04:50):
repercussions.
Now I have a choice at thispoint, and that is I can choose
to let that haunt me or I canchoose to do something about it.
I chose to do something aboutit.
I made the decision.
I'm going to learn from thisexperience.
I'm going to share what I learn.
This is why I love the AbsoluteDogs environment and you,
lauren, because it is anopportunity for people to learn
(05:12):
from our experiences.
Right, we can share, and youknow where do we go from there.
So after that happened, thefirst thing I did with Harley
was I got him away from thereand we immediately played games
all the way out of there.
So he was playing orientationgames, we were playing weather
games, all these great gamesthat he knows.
That build his optimism.
(05:33):
And the hardest part wasdisengaging my emotions from the
situation, because if I walkaway there huffed and upset and
worried, he's going to pick thatup, huffed and upset and
worried, he's going to pick thatup.
But the result of this is wehave some odd concerns.
You know he's a little bit morepessimistic about some things,
but he doesn't have a fear ofdogs.
(05:54):
And that was the big thing andthat was massive, because can
you imagine?
You know you have a couple ofthugs who mug you in an alleyway
.
You're going to be a lot morecautious.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
And, if I think about this, amanda, huge testament to
his genetics and histemperament, because I know with
my dogs that Blink or Skittleare resilient enough for that.
But I also know that Venture isnot.
And actually, given a situationshe had, which again defends
your dog situation, she was at adog training class of mine.
(06:26):
I left her on a start line, Iwent out and another dog from
class just piled in on her.
That dog didn't really hurt her, but emotionally she was hurt
right.
Emotionally she was damaged andthe owner of the dog said yeah,
but he didn't do anything andI'm like it didn't matter the
fact that she couldn't see himand he piled in on her from
behind.
That's enough for her.
(06:47):
And it probably took me andthis sounds silly, but it
probably took me, amanda about ayear to be able to run her in
that arena confidently again,because she ran looking over her
shoulder most of the time.
Now, it didn't just put her offin the arena at home, it put
her off anywhere I competed andshe a few times would leave the
(07:07):
ring and go and see Matt.
And that for me is such an oddscenario to be in because
typically my dogs are verybolshie, confident, almost
obnoxiously so and so to havethis little like shrinking
wallflower who didn't like it.
If anyone said boo and ifanother dog barkeds she'd leave
the ring.
And these things happen becauseyou're in agility, so they're
going to happen.
(07:27):
Now, what did it teach me?
Like you defend your dog, Iactually would just take her in
my arena and when another dogwas outside the arena I'd always
shut the gate.
So I would take more cautionthan I used to.
I don't always shut gates whenI train.
Why?
Because we train in open arenaswhere we train in fields with
20 rings with no ropes, likethat in the uk.
It's not ringed and fenced,it's open and we we rely on our
(07:49):
dog training skills.
However, I would shut thembecause I didn't want to.
I realize she's not a dog.
She pairs way too quick and hergenetics are not resilient and
robust.
And because she had so quick, Iknew I couldn't.
And the second thing, amanda,just very quickly.
Then definitely the I realizedI had to do a lot of not agility
and just down, get your fooddown, get your food down, get
(08:10):
your food down, get your food.
And I would bowl things and Ihad to get her moving.
So where is your sayingHarley's temperament?
And and he's actually hebecause of his, I think his
genetics, his temperament andhis background on games all
three empowering with her.
I had her at 12 months.
She's from a gundog kennel.
She's not got good history withother dogs, like she's scared
(08:32):
of other dogs, and then she waspiled in by a dog and she didn't
start playing games until shewas about a year old.
So for me there's so much thatis going against her on a bad
experience that when she hadthat bad experience it was hard
to overcome and I would saywe're there now, but it's taken
a while.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
But that is massive.
That is massive Because, as youknow, harley lives in a
household with a dog-dog,reactive terrier and you know
we've had a battle and wecontinue to have a battle with
that because Murphy, my littleterrier, he's small but mighty
but he's pessimistic, he is myabsolute dog's dog, he's the one
who brought me into theabsolute dog's world because he
was such a struggle.
(09:09):
But you know this whole thingabout learning history and the
training and I see this as kindof like a balance.
So if you've got good learninghistory right, your training is
going to go easy.
But if you have, you know, afractured learning history, that
training is a lot moredifficult.
And that's the struggle we havewith Harley, with Murphy.
(09:29):
So Harley already came from aworld where he knew about
reactive dogs but it was allthat foundation that he had in
the beginning because theydidn't actually interact
significantly for like the firstsix months of his life and the
following six months it was verylimited and even now it's very
managed, because the criticalthing to remember is one bad
(09:53):
experience if it's significantenough think about
post-traumatic stress disorderand dogs do get it that can be
significant enough to alter thebehavior for the rest of their
lives, just like it can for us.
Harley picked up some reallyweird things like we happened to
have a vet appointmentafterwards, which was a good
thing, so we had him checkedover.
He was physically okay.
(10:13):
The next time we went into thevet he growled.
So that's something we need towork on so it's enough, isn't it
?
Speaker 1 (10:20):
so it's those little things that you go.
Actually, that's enough for meto pay attention to here, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, and you want to get on that as soon as possible
and I have a fabulous vet.
We can go down there anytimeand we can go play games in the
vet clinic and with the techsthere.
They're fantastic and these arereally important components.
It may not sound like it'simmediately related to how we
defend our dogs, but it is 100%relevant, because optimism is
(10:46):
the key to so much.
If we can build that in ourdogs and, like with Venture at
12 months, it's never too late.
It's really important toremember that you will have a
foundation there, but you canstill do a lot to help impact
that.
When I think about puppy brains,I've actually given to think of
.
You know, you've got a jar andyou've got balloons in there and
(11:08):
the early learning is like thatexpanded balloon and then
you're stuffing more littleballoons in there.
But that early learning has ahuge impact on what happens
later.
It's why those first, you know,those first six months, are so
critical, because the brain isforming at a horrific rate I
should say that in a morepositive way, but at a
tremendous rate making thoseconnections, and those
(11:29):
connections tend to stick withthem for a long time.
So, anyways, after thisexperience, I thought, okay, I'm
going to go investigate this.
I reached out to my friends andI have some amazing friends out
there in the dog training worldfrom a whole array of different
disciplines.
Some train in ways that Iwouldn't, but I learned from
them still because there'salways tidbits of information.
(11:51):
So I had responses from myfriends for using Pet Corrector,
which is basically a can of airright, so it just makes a
hissing noise to pepper spray,and I'm going to talk about
pepper spray in a second because, well, I may as well talk about
it now.
Pepper spray is hugelyproblematic because if the dog
is hurt or injured using it,you're liable for that, and in a
(12:16):
dog-dog conflict like this,it's your word against the other
person's or in my case, it's myword only which can be
problematic, and you studied law.
You know how this goes.
So we want to try and dosomething that's fairly benign.
Some people will use spraybottles of water.
Some people even put vinegar inthat.
People will use walking sticks.
People will throw things atother dogs.
(12:38):
Even taking a handful of foodand throwing it towards the
other dog can be problematic.
I mean, if you've got aresource guard or involved, now,
you've got something that isdesirable.
So let's stop for one secondand think about what the whole
dog dog interaction is all about.
You know, it is a process wherethe dog sees another dog, it
(12:58):
visually engages with that otherdog, they approach one another,
they sniff nose to nose, theyturn around and sniff nose to
butt and then one of a number ofthings can happen.
Interestingly, thepredator-prey sequence actually
starts the same way, and I saythis because with these two dogs
they were actually acting insort of a pack mentality.
(13:19):
They were going after him likea community, tribal community
going after an enemy.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
I definitely experienced that, like like prey
prey, the way they go out andthe way they go after, and that
that, I think, is very, veryscary.
I just wanted to alsoacknowledge, like you know, the
dog, dog interaction space.
I particularly love it and I'mnot sure whether I'm not even
sure how this, this pays in here, but I particularly love it
that my dogs have a sea dog,acknowledged dog, walk on by
(13:49):
really well conditioned, reallywell conditioned and to the
point that with Tokyo and he wasprobably my best dog at this,
however, I think Skittles isgetting there.
Bray is very, very good at this, some naturally, some taught.
I think they have that level ofacknowledgement, they know all
(14:11):
of that is in play, but theywalk on by and for me, I wish we
could make this more out thereshareable.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, there's one really important game in games
club which is really valuable.
For this.
All I have to do is shift myweight back and harley turns and
it comes with me.
That's the rewind game.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
That is yeah, and then, and then we could just try
to walk whatever direction theother game for me that is
probably really hugelyinfluential here from the skill
point of view is isdisengagement pattern and
disengagement games on everylevel and the orientation game,
because it's out in, out in, soeven if you do take a step, they
then tend to trot back in and Iremember thinking, if I think
(14:52):
back to all of the lovely skillsthat Tokyo had, because he was
a very skilled dog and he was adog that was was born playing
games like he.
He was born and then every gamecarried on really through his,
his early life and he was a verysensitive dog.
But for him, the ability totrot out and then just lift his
head and go, enough, I'lldisengage and I'll go back to
(15:13):
here, like that's a beautifulskill in a dog.
That is something I I strugglewhen I see an older dog that I
like for, like I see a lot ofolder dogs that people offer us
for work or for the training orfor, like, police dog input or
like whatever, like, dependingon the training they want.
For me, I struggle to take anon an older dog because of those
early learning stages that weput on so quickly and they're,
(15:35):
they're so um, this is the.
It's massive, it's so, it's sotuned in.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, it's massive, those it's so tuned in.
Yeah, it's massive.
Those early learning skills aremassive.
But when you're in a situationwhere you have dogs coming at
you and this was like the biglight bulb it doesn't matter
what my dog's skills are,because these dogs are coming at
you.
But the reason why I talk aboutyou know the dog-dog
interaction skills and thepredator-prey skills is they
(16:02):
both start with that one thingcalled see other dog right, or
see prey, see whatever it is.
So I spoke to animal controlafter this incident, not to
report the person because shewas sufficiently horrified I
thought I felt she was going todeal with this herself but to
ask them what theirrecommendations are.
And that's where they informedme that pepper spray in Canada
(16:24):
is actually illegal.
You're not allowed to carry iteven, or you're not supposed to
carry it, unless you're in thebackwoods, because of the risk
of using it against anotherperson.
It's okay to use it against youknow a coyote or you know a
cougar or something that'scoming after you.
However, it's highly restrictedhere.
(16:44):
But all these other things thatI've mentioned already are
problematic, because now you arecreating a problem for the
other dog.
But back to this visual thing.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
think about something that blocks that visual
sequence, because you'll noticeoften and I mean you work with
so many dogs, lauren as soon asyou break that visual, it
changes the picture, it removesa lot of the stress, and so what
can we carry that is reallyeasy to block that visual
umbrella for sure, an umbrellaexactly and and I also love the
(17:19):
other one that always helpseliza when she's out is a stick,
sometimes like a walking stickor a riding stick when she's got
ponies, because she sometimeswill actually push a dog off and
you've had to push a dog offand that's right around dog.
But for me the umbrella makescomplete sense because you've
got two uses to it.
You actually have the purposeand let's put it out there.
(17:40):
No one out here wants to sprayany dog or hurt any dog or do
anything of damage to any dog,but this is preventative.
You are trying your very bestto look after your own dog's
interests, as well as any otheranimal in that environment, to
prevent anything like thisoccurring.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Exactly, exactly.
And when you have the umbrellaopened up in front of you, it
serves two purposes.
And when you have the umbrellaopened up in front of you, it
serves two purposes.
One is it provides that breakin the visual and second of all,
it actually puts a physicalbarrier between the two dogs.
And so what I am teaching andthis is all absolute dog stuff
it's all in Games Club.
You can find it there.
(18:16):
I teach a really, really strongmiddle.
So I ask Harley to come inbetween my legs and stay there,
and I build that up in everyenvironment that I can.
I make it like a defaultbehavior.
If you've got that, recallbecomes easy, right, because you
just call them to middle andthey love that position so much
that they come running.
Then I start doing middle onthe move, so I start pivoting
(18:39):
around and your dog, easy, wasamazing to watch for this
because she would respond toevery little weight shift.
And that's what I want, becauseif I have to turn, I want him
to follow me Exactly.
And then I condition opening upthe umbrella and then I can hold
the umbrella in front of me andhave him pivot with me, and
(19:00):
that now puts him in a safeposition with a barrier and if
you really want to push it, youcan actually use recall your dog
as a cue.
Instead of calling your dog tomiddle, you can condition your
dog to come to middle andprepare for the umbrella in that
process, and that's what I'vebeen doing with Harley.
So we're out in the boat andit's quite.
It's really quite fun when youbuild it with games well, think
(19:24):
about um I was thinking about.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
If you think about the schutzen or sports ipo or
all of the different versions ofthose dogs will do all very
similar versions of this, inmiddle, without the umbrella
maybe, but they'll all do thatwhere they'll.
I mean even to the pointthey'll turn and face the person
or the predator that's behindyou where you're walking in the
other direction, and that dog'sgot watch on what's behind you.
(19:47):
So it's the same thing.
Effectively, we're teachinggreat body targeting, and then
you're teaching the right bodytargeting and adding in a tool.
So effectively we've added inlike a dancing tool.
Now, the interesting thing,though, is if you were to think
about this in like heel works,music, that would just be
another prop.
Right, it's just another prop.
So the umbrella is just anotherconditioned prop that the dog
learns to enjoy, but the bigthing is, the umbrella is not
(20:12):
for my dog.
The umbrella is for theuntrained dog that's coming at
me, but you know what it is andI would say and over, but I
think and the umbrella alsolooks after your dog at the same
time.
So it's there to.
It's there to break the visualcontact of the other dog and as
an interrupter, but it's alsoand it's also there to look
(20:37):
after my dog and safeguard mydog and help me advocate for my
dog.
So I think it has a lovely likemulti-prong attack.
So just talk us through whatyou've trained and how you've
trained it.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Okay Well, so I mean, Harley already has a very good
recall.
But, as I say, middle can beused as recall.
You just build that up.
So we start by rewarding themin position and we start
building up the value of cominginto that position.
Reward heavily, make it fun,keep sessions short so important
(21:07):
because we don't want to makeit boring.
It's got to be something that'sspecial.
We gradually increase distance,we gradually increase
distractions.
So distance I do at home, I'llstart working in the backyard
and then I take it out and about.
So you know, Harley comes withme everywhere.
He's in my car, in a crate inmy car, and we will jump out of
the car and we will do it in theparking lot, we will go out to
a field and we will practicethis everywhere.
(21:27):
So it's so strong that he wantsto be there.
Now one thing we have to be verycareful not to step on our dogs
because that can damage that.
So we need to be a little bitaware.
Our footwork can matter aswe're training this up.
But again, if we have enoughpositive learning experience, it
becomes very, very solid.
For training the umbrella, Ijust start with the umbrella on
(21:51):
the ground and scatter feeding.
Now a lot of people may not beaware that scatter feeding,
which is basically taking foodand putting it on the ground for
the dog to snorkel around andfind, some dogs actually need to
be taught how to scatter feed.
They don't necessarily come byit naturally, so you start with
just a couple pieces and overtime you add a few more pieces,
and this is a great way ofgiving your dog breakfast.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Just to interrupt for two seconds.
The thing I find with scatterfeeding like you said, some dogs
don't actually know how toscatter feed.
Some dogs have absolutely notenacity or resilience with it,
and other dogs get so franticabout it that they actually lose
their head.
So carry on, amanda, becausethis is lovely.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, and it's important because I
didn't think about theimportance of actually teaching
it until you know I got Harleywho was that frantic one.
You know you throw some fooddown and then he'd go nuts, and
then later on he decided thatyou know he would eat five
pieces, and then he'd look at melike what next?
Well, there's more pieces downthere.
So start with just a few piecesand and, and, as they're
working it, add more.
(22:50):
Not when they look up at you asthey're working it.
You want to add more becauseyou want them to to realize that
having their head downsnorkeling means that more food
comes.
So I put down the umbrella andI start to scatter feed around
it.
I don't scatter feed on it, Iwant to make sure that there's
no pressure and that he justbecomes aware of this thing in
the environment.
And then I'll open it and thenbring him back in.
(23:11):
So I'll open it while he's notthere, then bring him back in
and scatter feed in and aroundit.
So he's used to having the openumbrella and then the open
umbrella, and then I'll scatterfeed and I'll open and close it,
watching them carefully,because if they cringe a little
bit.
We don't want to build that.
We want to go back a step, dosome more scatter feeding, step
away and open it away from himand continue to scatter feed and
(23:38):
then, through that process, webuild it up to them being in
middle and being able to openand close it.
Then the next thing and this isthe third component of the
umbrella that we haven't spokenabout is I'll start opening and
closing it quickly.
I'll gradually bring up thespeed because, again, if you've
got a dog that's charging at you, a static umbrella may not
catch their attention, but assoon as you start flapping it by
opening and closing it in frontof you, that dog's going to go.
(24:00):
Whoa, what is this?
And I used to actually use thisfor wolf control on Cortez
Island, where I used to live.
I was boat access only off grid,and my Labrador retriever was
totally solid.
He was an awesome dog.
But wolves there like to eatdogs and it's a horrific thought
.
But they learned that dogs arenice and tasty and so one would
(24:21):
go for walks.
I always had my umbrella and Iwould always get salty to go in
into middle and I'd startflapping the umbrella if I was
concerned about the wolvesapproaching.
Fortunately, that was enoughfor them.
They didn't really want to dealwith us and they would avoid us
.
But yeah, yeah, it's, it's amulti-pronged um.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah, yeah, it's um, it's a multi-pronged uh.
I.
I just thought lovely, lovely,um, and I love the salty dog dog
moments.
I just thought what about theproofing levels?
Because this really is going torequire some proofing, right,
like we are going to want toprove this, and when I'm
thinking about it, like easy hadsuch brilliant proofed
behaviors and I'm pretty surethat this would be approved at
that level because of the layersthat I proved.
But I want to hear it from you.
I want to hear what you think.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
I want to stop you for one moment, um, because we
have a very diverse audience outthere.
When you say proofing, what doyou mean by proofing?
Speaker 1 (25:12):
so I mean that this dog is able to and wants to, and
actively seeks out thatposition, no matter what's
happening in the environment.
So whether you're flapping theumbrella around, whether you're
in panic and you're racingaround like a lunatic, whether
it's hammering down with rain orwhether you're beaming in
sunshine, your dog iscomfortable in that middle
(25:32):
position, no matter what ishappening in the environment at
the time.
You ask them to do it and it'snot actively like just being
told and they're doing it.
They 100% want to do it, theylove to do it, they live to do
it.
In fact, they see it as a joyto behold, because you're not
even going to be able to beconstant feeding, potentially
during this episode happeningwhen it gets there.
So is it pushed past, likeneeding a treat every however
(25:55):
many seconds minutes?
Is it proofed past the factthat another person might be
involved?
Is it proofed past youscreaming?
And I'm thinking about anincident with or not an incident
a training session with me andmy dog, brave, and we were
searching a building and theywere knocking over dogs filing
cabinets.
They were like slamming likethings on a bath and she had to
(26:16):
still go in and get the pad andthe man in the pad, even though
she was quite noise sensitive.
And these things are fallingbehind her like rubble falling.
They're in a derelict house.
It was great fun and I lovedoing it.
I absolutely.
It's funny.
I pretend like where's likevideo games.
I pretend I'm in a video game.
When I'm there I'm like runningaround and knocking things with
them.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I suppose at that level yeah so proofing, proofing
is the everyday, so proofing is.
You know, there's a lot ofmisconception about dog training
out there and back.
When I started dog training,way back in the dark ages, when
dinosaurs roamed the earth, um,and I was competing in obedience
, it was.
You trained your dog for hourson end and blah, blah, blah,
(26:54):
blah.
We know that doesn't workbecause they only have an
attention span that's so long.
So what you want to do is likewhat I did this morning.
I'll give you an example of mymorning with Harley, my husband.
I have to, he can't drive, so Itake him to his exercise
classes three times a week, andthree times a week Harley comes
with me and we hop out and we goand we do something.
(27:15):
Now we're talking about a verybusy place.
This is a recreation center.
Now, this is Canada, hockey isa big thing, and so people are
walking around with hockeyequipment, with sticks, dragging
roller bags, with noisy wheelson the pavement.
I'll have him searching forarticles, because we do some
tracking work, so I'll have himgoing and searching for some
(27:37):
articles, which is somethingthat he loves.
It's high value.
Or I'll scatter feed him, orwe'll just sit there and park,
so he'll park with me in frontof the doorway where they come
in and out.
Now, we didn't start that way.
It all started with he'd comeout for a couple minutes, he'd
hop out of the car, we'd play anorientation game, check me out,
circle game, weather games backin the car.
(27:59):
That would take maybe fiveminutes at most.
I might take him out maybetwice, maybe three times in that
hour that my husband is in forhis exercise class.
But I do that three times aweek and so through that period
of learning, experience a littlebit.
You should have seen him today.
I had him doing tracking workwith people walking all over the
(28:22):
place.
I had him doing steady work, sobasically sit and stay while
people are walking by wanting topet him.
He'll work more like a you know, a gun dog, be near me, work
all through the parking lot.
The zamboni came out, you know,and he's just looking at the
zamboni like okay, you know,it's just another thing, it's
all a zamboni please clarifywhat on earth is a zamboni.
(28:48):
Okay, a zamboni is basicallylike a big.
It's almost like a car.
It's very specialized and it'sused for cleaning the ice.
So they resurface the ice withthis thing.
So it uses um hot water and itscrapes off the upper layer so
that all the gouges from all theskating and the ice are
flattened out.
So it's a nice smooth surfacefor people to skate on um.
(29:10):
And yeah, yeah, we had a bit ofa conversation in the circle
group about what the heck is azamboni all the canadians anyway
.
And if you've ever seen azamboni, I mean it's a big box
on wheels, basically, and it'ssteamy and it's noisy and
they've got studs on the wheels.
So it's driving through theparking lot going click, click,
click, click, click.
(29:30):
So he learned that just bylittle bits of conditioning.
This is the whole.
You know how you get to fullyproofing a dog to a situation.
We're talking about exposure tothings that are similar, but
not necessarily what the thingis.
So you know, for proofing theumbrella, it starts out in small
(29:51):
steps and that's getting toknow what the umbrella is,
getting familiar with it,knowing that it's nothing that's
a threat, and then, when Icombine it with middle, I'll
start.
He already knows what theumbrella is.
He knows what it's like to haveit open and closed.
It's already kind of a nonevent.
Call him into middle and Islowly and gradually introduce
it.
The key thing is don't do it alot, because that's one of the
(30:14):
big mistakes.
We think that.
You know, we think more isbetter.
When you're proofing something,more is not always better.
What we want to do is only workon it when your dog is in a
good headspace.
We don't want to write an examwhen we're stressing because our
mother's sick, right?
So we want to make sure thatthe dog is already warmed up
into good headspace.
This is where the conversationstarters are really important.
(30:34):
We start with games and I'vealready said it many times.
We start with orientation game,weather game, check me out,
circle games.
Those are games that he loves,we have fun with.
Sometimes we get a bit crazywith, but it creates that good
headspace.
Then we move on to proofingwork, because proofing work can
have the opposite effect ifwe're not careful.
(30:54):
So we, you know the key isbeing aware of your dog, knowing
your dog.
Nobody knows your dog like youdo.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
And I would also absolutely second that by saying
so many people do too much ofthe proofing, which for me is a
bit like the testing, ratherthan consider really how we're
building all the time, becauseyou're always building for that
moment, you're building for theopportunity moment.
You're building for theopportunity, you're building for
the, for the need.
I think about the search work,trainers, the, the guys that go
out there and look for likebombs and they're building,
(31:23):
they're building, they'rebuilding, but they're not
putting their dogs necessarilyinto the test situation.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
They're actually building regularly, regularly,
regularly, and they want tobuild and grow and this is the
cool thing about games basedconcept training and this is
what I really love cool thingabout games-based concept
training and this is what Ireally love about it.
Because when I look at training, I see it in sort of two ways.
I mean, I'm also certified inanother group, which is behavior
training.
It's based on behaviorism BFSkinner, very, very valuable for
(31:50):
building behaviors.
But I see dog training as twoelements.
You have behaviors, so you wantyour dog to sit, stay, you know
instant down and all this.
But we also and those are cuedbehaviors, those are behaviors
that we're involved in.
But then there's the conceptswhich I also consider skills.
These are the un-cued behaviors.
(32:10):
These are Tokyo's ability todisengage.
You're not cuing him todisengage, he's choosing, it's
his choice.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
It's like having the dog that makes all the right
decisions every single time.
Like, honestly beautiful.
He'd sit in the car park offlead and just watch the world go
by, dog after dog, aggressivedog, dog trying to interact with
him, dog trying to flirt withhim.
The only ones that would nowand again tempt him would be the
odd lady and he'd be like, andI'd be like.
Now and again, tempt him wouldbe the odd lady and he'd be like
, and I'd be like get over here,lie back down and be like can
(32:44):
you blame him?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
I mean, he was a good looking boy, you know, amazing
dog.
He was amazing Anyways.
Yeah, so skills are reallybased on on neuroscience, so
it's how the brain is formed.
And this comes back to puppiesand developing those early puppy
skills is we want them to, wewant to set them up to be able
to make those good choices, youknow, with puppies it's building
that relationship with you andI love, I love watching the
(33:04):
videos of you and Skittlesbuilding Skittles, you know,
relationship with you.
I mean, she is so charged towork with you enough to bite you
on the bum.
I love it.
I just I love her.
And then, of course, you want tomake sure you get that optimism
in as soon as possible.
And then the one that we allstruggle with, and it's
(33:25):
definitely our struggle, andthat is that ability to calm.
If you can get a dog to calm inmost spaces, you have a dog
that really is resilient, youknow, and that leads on to to my
other project, which is, youknow, disaster preparedness with
dogs resilient, you know, andthat leads on to to my other
project, which is, you know,disaster preparedness with dogs,
cause you know it's, if youhave a dog that has that skill
to be able to settle down in theface of all kinds of things,
(33:46):
you have a dog that can reset,you know, and that's you know,
back to defend your dog.
That's that's really valuablefor being able to get over an
event Like what happened toHarley.
If I was unable to get him intoa safe space where he could
calm down and just settle andreframe his mind, then he'd end
up like my terrier, rightDog-dog reactive.
(34:08):
He'd be worried about thingsAgain after that event.
Just to reiterate after an eventlike that happens, the best
thing we can do is have thosego-to games that are joyful for
our dogs, where it switches theminto a really positive mindset.
Get them home, make sure thatthey're well cared for and make
(34:34):
sure that they have a space tosettle down and to reset
themselves, Because we want themto try and forget that event,
just like we want to forget thatevent.
I mean, what are we going to do?
We're going to go and dosomething to make ourselves feel
better.
We want to help our dogs to beable to do something to help
them feel better.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Amanda, it's been amazing, it's been immense, and
I know there are so many peopleout there that are going to know
so much more when it comes todefending our dogs.
It's absolutely got to be agame that comes to Games Club
very soon, if it's not alreadythere.
I think it's going to get therepretty quickly.
Well done you, and I thank youso much for joining us for this
(35:06):
podcast.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Anytime.
I absolutely love being here,Lauren, and I absolutely love
chatting with you.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Amazing, amazing stuff.
So that was this episode.
Defend your dog, do it well.
Share this episode.
Please share it worldwide.
Friends, father, sister, mother, brother, long lost lover,
share it.
Share it.
Share it because we know that'show the ripple continues.
Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel
podcast.
I'm Lauren Langman.
I'm one of the world's leadingdog trainers, and it's my
mission to help owners becometheir dog's top priority.
In each episode, you'lldiscover how to gain trust and
communicate with your dog likenever before, creating
unbreakable bonds that make youthe most exciting part of their
world.
Now, sometimes, bad thingshappen, and Amanda and I today
(00:32):
are going to be talking abouthow to defend our dogs, because
we know that, whilst we mightnot be able to control
everything that leads up to anevent, actually we can control
what we do with it in the future, and we can also control how we
prepare our dogs.
Welcome, amanda, and I'mexcited to talk to you about
this.
It's empowering for owners andtherefore empowering for our
(00:54):
dogs too, right.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
And thank you, lauren.
I always love sharing myexperiences.
There's always so much learningthat's out there in the world.
And you know, with the defendyour dog idea here, this was
born out of a really nastyincident that I experienced with
my young spaniel.
You know, you build optimism,you want your dog to look at the
world as a wonderful place.
(01:15):
And then you're, you knowyou're on the trails and all of
a sudden dogs come after yourdog.
You don't understand why, butyou have to think quickly in the
moment.
And the specific situation thatactually triggered this was I
had just had a wonderfultraining session with Harley.
He's training as a gun dog andof course we're using lots and
lots of games for this and havereally worked to build up his
(01:38):
optimism.
So he's absolutely wonderful towork with.
And at the end of our littlesession we were working on a you
know it's a public area but nota public area.
So you know we there weren't alot of dogs around and at the
end of that we just went for alittle walk on the trails and
I've been down these trailsoften and I often take my
terrier down it, so you knowdown them.
(01:58):
So I'm, you know they're fairlysafe to me.
So I thought, because as wewere turning around to come back
, these two dogs appeared out ofnowhere and they launched on
him.
Now, fortunately, harley has apretty much you never want to
say a hundred percent, but a99.9% recall.
So he's really very good andthat's required If he's going to
(02:21):
be a gun dog.
He has to be able to disengageand come back to me.
But these other two dogs justcame down on him and there was
no one to be seen, no owner insight, and they cornered him,
flipped him over in a ditchwhich was full of water and the
only thing sticking out was hisnose.
And of course I just thoughtyou know they say don't scream,
but I'm screaming because Idon't know where this person is.
(02:42):
There's got to be an ownerattached to these dogs and if I
don't sound panicked, they'renot going to respond.
And so I did that and, you know, managed to get him.
The owner finally showed up andtook the dogs.
Now it was horrific, as you canimagine, and it actually took
me a week before I could walkdown those trails again, because
(03:02):
I was traumatized, let alone mydog.
Now what I want to talk abouthere is, first of all, what I
learned in terms of how I canprotect him in the future with
this.
But, even more important, whatdid I do afterwards?
Because this is an event thattraumatized both of us and how
we respond in the end is massiveboth of us, and how we respond
(03:25):
in the end is massive.
So immediately after theincident, you know, I managed to
speak to the owner of the dogand I felt badly for her and
it's really important that werecognize that not all owners
are going to blow you off andsay there's a problem with your
dog.
This individual was reallyshocked and horrified by her
dog's behaviors, and so wemanaged to have a conversation
and I did something that Ididn't.
(03:48):
I would never recommend doingthis, but in the end I'm glad I
did, and the reason why isbecause the owner didn't see
what happened.
But when she said, well, let'ssee if there'll be friends.
So she took one of the two dogsand I'm going.
This is a bad idea.
So I just held on to Harley andher dog just went after him.
(04:08):
They were on leashes, so therewas no contact.
I managed to step back, playthat wonderful game called
Rewind.
Have Harley come back to me,pick him up and get out of there
.
But what turned out to beimportant in that case was she
saw what happened.
To be important in that casewas she saw what happened.
Because what I didn't expectwas that this situation would
(04:29):
actually come back not not at me, but would come back in a
really weird way because itturns out this individual was
teaching puppy classes at ourlocal club and taking those dogs
to the puppy classes, and oneof those dogs is apparently a
certified service dog.
So horrific, nasty situationwith all kinds of interesting
(04:50):
repercussions.
Now I have a choice at thispoint, and that is I can choose
to let that haunt me or I canchoose to do something about it.
I chose to do something aboutit.
I made the decision.
I'm going to learn from thisexperience.
I'm going to share what I learn.
This is why I love the AbsoluteDogs environment and you,
lauren, because it is anopportunity for people to learn
(05:12):
from our experiences.
Right, we can share, and youknow where do we go from there.
So after that happened, thefirst thing I did with Harley
was I got him away from thereand we immediately played games
all the way out of there.
So he was playing orientationgames, we were playing weather
games, all these great gamesthat he knows.
That build his optimism.
(05:33):
And the hardest part wasdisengaging my emotions from the
situation, because if I walkaway there huffed and upset and
worried, he's going to pick thatup, huffed and upset and
worried, he's going to pick thatup.
But the result of this is wehave some odd concerns.
You know he's a little bit morepessimistic about some things,
but he doesn't have a fear ofdogs.
(05:54):
And that was the big thing andthat was massive, because can
you imagine?
You know you have a couple ofthugs who mug you in an alleyway
.
You're going to be a lot morecautious.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
And, if I think about this, amanda, huge testament to
his genetics and histemperament, because I know with
my dogs that Blink or Skittleare resilient enough for that.
But I also know that Venture isnot.
And actually, given a situationshe had, which again defends
your dog situation, she was at adog training class of mine.
(06:26):
I left her on a start line, Iwent out and another dog from
class just piled in on her.
That dog didn't really hurt her, but emotionally she was hurt
right.
Emotionally she was damaged andthe owner of the dog said yeah,
but he didn't do anything andI'm like it didn't matter the
fact that she couldn't see himand he piled in on her from
behind.
That's enough for her.
(06:47):
And it probably took me andthis sounds silly, but it
probably took me, amanda about ayear to be able to run her in
that arena confidently again,because she ran looking over her
shoulder most of the time.
Now, it didn't just put her offin the arena at home, it put
her off anywhere I competed andshe a few times would leave the
(07:07):
ring and go and see Matt.
And that for me is such an oddscenario to be in because
typically my dogs are verybolshie, confident, almost
obnoxiously so and so to havethis little like shrinking
wallflower who didn't like it.
If anyone said boo and ifanother dog barkeds she'd leave
the ring.
And these things happen becauseyou're in agility, so they're
going to happen.
(07:27):
Now, what did it teach me?
Like you defend your dog, Iactually would just take her in
my arena and when another dogwas outside the arena I'd always
shut the gate.
So I would take more cautionthan I used to.
I don't always shut gates whenI train.
Why?
Because we train in open arenaswhere we train in fields with
20 rings with no ropes, likethat in the uk.
It's not ringed and fenced,it's open and we we rely on our
(07:49):
dog training skills.
However, I would shut thembecause I didn't want to.
I realize she's not a dog.
She pairs way too quick and hergenetics are not resilient and
robust.
And because she had so quick, Iknew I couldn't.
And the second thing, amanda,just very quickly.
Then definitely the I realizedI had to do a lot of not agility
and just down, get your fooddown, get your food down, get
(08:10):
your food down, get your food.
And I would bowl things and Ihad to get her moving.
So where is your sayingHarley's temperament?
And and he's actually hebecause of his, I think his
genetics, his temperament andhis background on games all
three empowering with her.
I had her at 12 months.
She's from a gundog kennel.
She's not got good history withother dogs, like she's scared
(08:32):
of other dogs, and then she waspiled in by a dog and she didn't
start playing games until shewas about a year old.
So for me there's so much thatis going against her on a bad
experience that when she hadthat bad experience it was hard
to overcome and I would saywe're there now, but it's taken
a while.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
But that is massive.
That is massive Because, as youknow, harley lives in a
household with a dog-dog,reactive terrier and you know
we've had a battle and wecontinue to have a battle with
that because Murphy, my littleterrier, he's small but mighty
but he's pessimistic, he is myabsolute dog's dog, he's the one
who brought me into theabsolute dog's world because he
was such a struggle.
(09:09):
But you know this whole thingabout learning history and the
training and I see this as kindof like a balance.
So if you've got good learninghistory right, your training is
going to go easy.
But if you have, you know, afractured learning history, that
training is a lot moredifficult.
And that's the struggle we havewith Harley, with Murphy.
(09:29):
So Harley already came from aworld where he knew about
reactive dogs but it was allthat foundation that he had in
the beginning because theydidn't actually interact
significantly for like the firstsix months of his life and the
following six months it was verylimited and even now it's very
managed, because the criticalthing to remember is one bad
(09:53):
experience if it's significantenough think about
post-traumatic stress disorderand dogs do get it that can be
significant enough to alter thebehavior for the rest of their
lives, just like it can for us.
Harley picked up some reallyweird things like we happened to
have a vet appointmentafterwards, which was a good
thing, so we had him checkedover.
He was physically okay.
(10:13):
The next time we went into thevet he growled.
So that's something we need towork on so it's enough, isn't it
?
Speaker 1 (10:20):
so it's those little things that you go.
Actually, that's enough for meto pay attention to here, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, and you want to get on that as soon as possible
and I have a fabulous vet.
We can go down there anytimeand we can go play games in the
vet clinic and with the techsthere.
They're fantastic and these arereally important components.
It may not sound like it'simmediately related to how we
defend our dogs, but it is 100%relevant, because optimism is
(10:46):
the key to so much.
If we can build that in ourdogs and, like with Venture at
12 months, it's never too late.
It's really important toremember that you will have a
foundation there, but you canstill do a lot to help impact
that.
When I think about puppy brains,I've actually given to think of
.
You know, you've got a jar andyou've got balloons in there and
(11:08):
the early learning is like thatexpanded balloon and then
you're stuffing more littleballoons in there.
But that early learning has ahuge impact on what happens
later.
It's why those first, you know,those first six months, are so
critical, because the brain isforming at a horrific rate I
should say that in a morepositive way, but at a
tremendous rate making thoseconnections, and those
(11:29):
connections tend to stick withthem for a long time.
So, anyways, after thisexperience, I thought, okay, I'm
going to go investigate this.
I reached out to my friends andI have some amazing friends out
there in the dog training worldfrom a whole array of different
disciplines.
Some train in ways that Iwouldn't, but I learned from
them still because there'salways tidbits of information.
(11:51):
So I had responses from myfriends for using Pet Corrector,
which is basically a can of airright, so it just makes a
hissing noise to pepper spray,and I'm going to talk about
pepper spray in a second because, well, I may as well talk about
it now.
Pepper spray is hugelyproblematic because if the dog
is hurt or injured using it,you're liable for that, and in a
(12:16):
dog-dog conflict like this,it's your word against the other
person's or in my case, it's myword only which can be
problematic, and you studied law.
You know how this goes.
So we want to try and dosomething that's fairly benign.
Some people will use spraybottles of water.
Some people even put vinegar inthat.
People will use walking sticks.
People will throw things atother dogs.
(12:38):
Even taking a handful of foodand throwing it towards the
other dog can be problematic.
I mean, if you've got aresource guard or involved, now,
you've got something that isdesirable.
So let's stop for one secondand think about what the whole
dog dog interaction is all about.
You know, it is a process wherethe dog sees another dog, it
(12:58):
visually engages with that otherdog, they approach one another,
they sniff nose to nose, theyturn around and sniff nose to
butt and then one of a number ofthings can happen.
Interestingly, thepredator-prey sequence actually
starts the same way, and I saythis because with these two dogs
they were actually acting insort of a pack mentality.
(13:19):
They were going after him likea community, tribal community
going after an enemy.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
I definitely experienced that, like like prey
prey, the way they go out andthe way they go after, and that
that, I think, is very, veryscary.
I just wanted to alsoacknowledge, like you know, the
dog, dog interaction space.
I particularly love it and I'mnot sure whether I'm not even
sure how this, this pays in here, but I particularly love it
that my dogs have a sea dog,acknowledged dog, walk on by
(13:49):
really well conditioned, reallywell conditioned and to the
point that with Tokyo and he wasprobably my best dog at this,
however, I think Skittles isgetting there.
Bray is very, very good at this, some naturally, some taught.
I think they have that level ofacknowledgement, they know all
(14:11):
of that is in play, but theywalk on by and for me, I wish we
could make this more out thereshareable.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, there's one really important game in games
club which is really valuable.
For this.
All I have to do is shift myweight back and harley turns and
it comes with me.
That's the rewind game.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
That is yeah, and then, and then we could just try
to walk whatever direction theother game for me that is
probably really hugelyinfluential here from the skill
point of view is isdisengagement pattern and
disengagement games on everylevel and the orientation game,
because it's out in, out in, soeven if you do take a step, they
then tend to trot back in and Iremember thinking, if I think
(14:52):
back to all of the lovely skillsthat Tokyo had, because he was
a very skilled dog and he was adog that was was born playing
games like he.
He was born and then every gamecarried on really through his,
his early life and he was a verysensitive dog.
But for him, the ability totrot out and then just lift his
head and go, enough, I'lldisengage and I'll go back to
(15:13):
here, like that's a beautifulskill in a dog.
That is something I I strugglewhen I see an older dog that I
like for, like I see a lot ofolder dogs that people offer us
for work or for the training orfor, like, police dog input or
like whatever, like, dependingon the training they want.
For me, I struggle to take anon an older dog because of those
early learning stages that weput on so quickly and they're,
(15:35):
they're so um, this is the.
It's massive, it's so, it's sotuned in.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, it's massive, those it's so tuned in.
Yeah, it's massive.
Those early learning skills aremassive.
But when you're in a situationwhere you have dogs coming at
you and this was like the biglight bulb it doesn't matter
what my dog's skills are,because these dogs are coming at
you.
But the reason why I talk aboutyou know the dog-dog
interaction skills and thepredator-prey skills is they
(16:02):
both start with that one thingcalled see other dog right, or
see prey, see whatever it is.
So I spoke to animal controlafter this incident, not to
report the person because shewas sufficiently horrified I
thought I felt she was going todeal with this herself but to
ask them what theirrecommendations are.
And that's where they informedme that pepper spray in Canada
(16:24):
is actually illegal.
You're not allowed to carry iteven, or you're not supposed to
carry it, unless you're in thebackwoods, because of the risk
of using it against anotherperson.
It's okay to use it against youknow a coyote or you know a
cougar or something that'scoming after you.
However, it's highly restrictedhere.
(16:44):
But all these other things thatI've mentioned already are
problematic, because now you arecreating a problem for the
other dog.
But back to this visual thing.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
think about something that blocks that visual
sequence, because you'll noticeoften and I mean you work with
so many dogs, lauren as soon asyou break that visual, it
changes the picture, it removesa lot of the stress, and so what
can we carry that is reallyeasy to block that visual
umbrella for sure, an umbrellaexactly and and I also love the
(17:19):
other one that always helpseliza when she's out is a stick,
sometimes like a walking stickor a riding stick when she's got
ponies, because she sometimeswill actually push a dog off and
you've had to push a dog offand that's right around dog.
But for me the umbrella makescomplete sense because you've
got two uses to it.
You actually have the purposeand let's put it out there.
(17:40):
No one out here wants to sprayany dog or hurt any dog or do
anything of damage to any dog,but this is preventative.
You are trying your very bestto look after your own dog's
interests, as well as any otheranimal in that environment, to
prevent anything like thisoccurring.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Exactly, exactly.
And when you have the umbrellaopened up in front of you, it
serves two purposes.
And when you have the umbrellaopened up in front of you, it
serves two purposes.
One is it provides that breakin the visual and second of all,
it actually puts a physicalbarrier between the two dogs.
And so what I am teaching andthis is all absolute dog stuff
it's all in Games Club.
You can find it there.
(18:16):
I teach a really, really strongmiddle.
So I ask Harley to come inbetween my legs and stay there,
and I build that up in everyenvironment that I can.
I make it like a defaultbehavior.
If you've got that, recallbecomes easy, right, because you
just call them to middle andthey love that position so much
that they come running.
Then I start doing middle onthe move, so I start pivoting
(18:39):
around and your dog, easy, wasamazing to watch for this
because she would respond toevery little weight shift.
And that's what I want, becauseif I have to turn, I want him
to follow me Exactly.
And then I condition opening upthe umbrella and then I can hold
the umbrella in front of me andhave him pivot with me, and
(19:00):
that now puts him in a safeposition with a barrier and if
you really want to push it, youcan actually use recall your dog
as a cue.
Instead of calling your dog tomiddle, you can condition your
dog to come to middle andprepare for the umbrella in that
process, and that's what I'vebeen doing with Harley.
So we're out in the boat andit's quite.
It's really quite fun when youbuild it with games well, think
(19:24):
about um I was thinking about.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
If you think about the schutzen or sports ipo or
all of the different versions ofthose dogs will do all very
similar versions of this, inmiddle, without the umbrella
maybe, but they'll all do thatwhere they'll.
I mean even to the pointthey'll turn and face the person
or the predator that's behindyou where you're walking in the
other direction, and that dog'sgot watch on what's behind you.
(19:47):
So it's the same thing.
Effectively, we're teachinggreat body targeting, and then
you're teaching the right bodytargeting and adding in a tool.
So effectively we've added inlike a dancing tool.
Now, the interesting thing,though, is if you were to think
about this in like heel works,music, that would just be
another prop.
Right, it's just another prop.
So the umbrella is just anotherconditioned prop that the dog
learns to enjoy, but the bigthing is, the umbrella is not
(20:12):
for my dog.
The umbrella is for theuntrained dog that's coming at
me, but you know what it is andI would say and over, but I
think and the umbrella alsolooks after your dog at the same
time.
So it's there to.
It's there to break the visualcontact of the other dog and as
an interrupter, but it's alsoand it's also there to look
(20:37):
after my dog and safeguard mydog and help me advocate for my
dog.
So I think it has a lovely likemulti-prong attack.
So just talk us through whatyou've trained and how you've
trained it.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Okay Well, so I mean, Harley already has a very good
recall.
But, as I say, middle can beused as recall.
You just build that up.
So we start by rewarding themin position and we start
building up the value of cominginto that position.
Reward heavily, make it fun,keep sessions short so important
(21:07):
because we don't want to makeit boring.
It's got to be something that'sspecial.
We gradually increase distance,we gradually increase
distractions.
So distance I do at home, I'llstart working in the backyard
and then I take it out and about.
So you know, Harley comes withme everywhere.
He's in my car, in a crate inmy car, and we will jump out of
the car and we will do it in theparking lot, we will go out to
a field and we will practicethis everywhere.
(21:27):
So it's so strong that he wantsto be there.
Now one thing we have to be verycareful not to step on our dogs
because that can damage that.
So we need to be a little bitaware.
Our footwork can matter aswe're training this up.
But again, if we have enoughpositive learning experience, it
becomes very, very solid.
For training the umbrella, Ijust start with the umbrella on
(21:51):
the ground and scatter feeding.
Now a lot of people may not beaware that scatter feeding,
which is basically taking foodand putting it on the ground for
the dog to snorkel around andfind, some dogs actually need to
be taught how to scatter feed.
They don't necessarily come byit naturally, so you start with
just a couple pieces and overtime you add a few more pieces,
and this is a great way ofgiving your dog breakfast.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Just to interrupt for two seconds.
The thing I find with scatterfeeding like you said, some dogs
don't actually know how toscatter feed.
Some dogs have absolutely notenacity or resilience with it,
and other dogs get so franticabout it that they actually lose
their head.
So carry on, amanda, becausethis is lovely.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, and it's important because I
didn't think about theimportance of actually teaching
it until you know I got Harleywho was that frantic one.
You know you throw some fooddown and then he'd go nuts, and
then later on he decided thatyou know he would eat five
pieces, and then he'd look at melike what next?
Well, there's more pieces downthere.
So start with just a few piecesand and, and, as they're
working it, add more.
(22:50):
Not when they look up at you asthey're working it.
You want to add more becauseyou want them to to realize that
having their head downsnorkeling means that more food
comes.
So I put down the umbrella andI start to scatter feed around
it.
I don't scatter feed on it, Iwant to make sure that there's
no pressure and that he justbecomes aware of this thing in
the environment.
And then I'll open it and thenbring him back in.
(23:11):
So I'll open it while he's notthere, then bring him back in
and scatter feed in and aroundit.
So he's used to having the openumbrella and then the open
umbrella, and then I'll scatterfeed and I'll open and close it,
watching them carefully,because if they cringe a little
bit.
We don't want to build that.
We want to go back a step, dosome more scatter feeding, step
away and open it away from himand continue to scatter feed and
(23:38):
then, through that process, webuild it up to them being in
middle and being able to openand close it.
Then the next thing and this isthe third component of the
umbrella that we haven't spokenabout is I'll start opening and
closing it quickly.
I'll gradually bring up thespeed because, again, if you've
got a dog that's charging at you, a static umbrella may not
catch their attention, but assoon as you start flapping it by
opening and closing it in frontof you, that dog's going to go.
(24:00):
Whoa, what is this?
And I used to actually use thisfor wolf control on Cortez
Island, where I used to live.
I was boat access only off grid,and my Labrador retriever was
totally solid.
He was an awesome dog.
But wolves there like to eatdogs and it's a horrific thought
.
But they learned that dogs arenice and tasty and so one would
(24:21):
go for walks.
I always had my umbrella and Iwould always get salty to go in
into middle and I'd startflapping the umbrella if I was
concerned about the wolvesapproaching.
Fortunately, that was enoughfor them.
They didn't really want to dealwith us and they would avoid us
.
But yeah, yeah, it's, it's amulti-pronged um.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah, yeah, it's um, it's a multi-pronged uh.
I.
I just thought lovely, lovely,um, and I love the salty dog dog
moments.
I just thought what about theproofing levels?
Because this really is going torequire some proofing, right,
like we are going to want toprove this, and when I'm
thinking about it, like easy hadsuch brilliant proofed
behaviors and I'm pretty surethat this would be approved at
that level because of the layersthat I proved.
But I want to hear it from you.
I want to hear what you think.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
I want to stop you for one moment, um, because we
have a very diverse audience outthere.
When you say proofing, what doyou mean by proofing?
Speaker 1 (25:12):
so I mean that this dog is able to and wants to, and
actively seeks out thatposition, no matter what's
happening in the environment.
So whether you're flapping theumbrella around, whether you're
in panic and you're racingaround like a lunatic, whether
it's hammering down with rain orwhether you're beaming in
sunshine, your dog iscomfortable in that middle
(25:32):
position, no matter what ishappening in the environment at
the time.
You ask them to do it and it'snot actively like just being
told and they're doing it.
They 100% want to do it, theylove to do it, they live to do
it.
In fact, they see it as a joyto behold, because you're not
even going to be able to beconstant feeding, potentially
during this episode happeningwhen it gets there.
So is it pushed past, likeneeding a treat every however
(25:55):
many seconds minutes?
Is it proofed past the factthat another person might be
involved?
Is it proofed past youscreaming?
And I'm thinking about anincident with or not an incident
a training session with me andmy dog, brave, and we were
searching a building and theywere knocking over dogs filing
cabinets.
They were like slamming likethings on a bath and she had to
(26:16):
still go in and get the pad andthe man in the pad, even though
she was quite noise sensitive.
And these things are fallingbehind her like rubble falling.
They're in a derelict house.
It was great fun and I lovedoing it.
I absolutely.
It's funny.
I pretend like where's likevideo games.
I pretend I'm in a video game.
When I'm there I'm like runningaround and knocking things with
them.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I suppose at that level yeah so proofing, proofing
is the everyday, so proofing is.
You know, there's a lot ofmisconception about dog training
out there and back.
When I started dog training,way back in the dark ages, when
dinosaurs roamed the earth, um,and I was competing in obedience
, it was.
You trained your dog for hourson end and blah, blah, blah,
(26:54):
blah.
We know that doesn't workbecause they only have an
attention span that's so long.
So what you want to do is likewhat I did this morning.
I'll give you an example of mymorning with Harley, my husband.
I have to, he can't drive, so Itake him to his exercise
classes three times a week, andthree times a week Harley comes
with me and we hop out and we goand we do something.
(27:15):
Now we're talking about a verybusy place.
This is a recreation center.
Now, this is Canada, hockey isa big thing, and so people are
walking around with hockeyequipment, with sticks, dragging
roller bags, with noisy wheelson the pavement.
I'll have him searching forarticles, because we do some
tracking work, so I'll have himgoing and searching for some
(27:37):
articles, which is somethingthat he loves.
It's high value.
Or I'll scatter feed him, orwe'll just sit there and park,
so he'll park with me in frontof the doorway where they come
in and out.
Now, we didn't start that way.
It all started with he'd comeout for a couple minutes, he'd
hop out of the car, we'd play anorientation game, check me out,
circle game, weather games backin the car.
(27:59):
That would take maybe fiveminutes at most.
I might take him out maybetwice, maybe three times in that
hour that my husband is in forhis exercise class.
But I do that three times aweek and so through that period
of learning, experience a littlebit.
You should have seen him today.
I had him doing tracking workwith people walking all over the
(28:22):
place.
I had him doing steady work, sobasically sit and stay while
people are walking by wanting topet him.
He'll work more like a you know, a gun dog, be near me, work
all through the parking lot.
The zamboni came out, you know,and he's just looking at the
zamboni like okay, you know,it's just another thing, it's
all a zamboni please clarifywhat on earth is a zamboni.
(28:48):
Okay, a zamboni is basicallylike a big.
It's almost like a car.
It's very specialized and it'sused for cleaning the ice.
So they resurface the ice withthis thing.
So it uses um hot water and itscrapes off the upper layer so
that all the gouges from all theskating and the ice are
flattened out.
So it's a nice smooth surfacefor people to skate on um.
(29:10):
And yeah, yeah, we had a bit ofa conversation in the circle
group about what the heck is azamboni all the canadians anyway
.
And if you've ever seen azamboni, I mean it's a big box
on wheels, basically, and it'ssteamy and it's noisy and
they've got studs on the wheels.
So it's driving through theparking lot going click, click,
click, click, click.
(29:30):
So he learned that just bylittle bits of conditioning.
This is the whole.
You know how you get to fullyproofing a dog to a situation.
We're talking about exposure tothings that are similar, but
not necessarily what the thingis.
So you know, for proofing theumbrella, it starts out in small
(29:51):
steps and that's getting toknow what the umbrella is,
getting familiar with it,knowing that it's nothing that's
a threat, and then, when Icombine it with middle, I'll
start.
He already knows what theumbrella is.
He knows what it's like to haveit open and closed.
It's already kind of a nonevent.
Call him into middle and Islowly and gradually introduce
it.
The key thing is don't do it alot, because that's one of the
(30:14):
big mistakes.
We think that.
You know, we think more isbetter.
When you're proofing something,more is not always better.
What we want to do is only workon it when your dog is in a
good headspace.
We don't want to write an examwhen we're stressing because our
mother's sick, right?
So we want to make sure thatthe dog is already warmed up
into good headspace.
This is where the conversationstarters are really important.
(30:34):
We start with games and I'vealready said it many times.
We start with orientation game,weather game, check me out,
circle games.
Those are games that he loves,we have fun with.
Sometimes we get a bit crazywith, but it creates that good
headspace.
Then we move on to proofingwork, because proofing work can
have the opposite effect ifwe're not careful.
(30:54):
So we, you know the key isbeing aware of your dog, knowing
your dog.
Nobody knows your dog like youdo.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
And I would also absolutely second that by saying
so many people do too much ofthe proofing, which for me is a
bit like the testing, ratherthan consider really how we're
building all the time, becauseyou're always building for that
moment, you're building for theopportunity moment.
You're building for theopportunity, you're building for
the, for the need.
I think about the search work,trainers, the, the guys that go
out there and look for likebombs and they're building,
(31:23):
they're building, they'rebuilding, but they're not
putting their dogs necessarilyinto the test situation.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
They're actually building regularly, regularly,
regularly, and they want tobuild and grow and this is the
cool thing about games basedconcept training and this is
what I really love cool thingabout games-based concept
training and this is what Ireally love about it.
Because when I look at training, I see it in sort of two ways.
I mean, I'm also certified inanother group, which is behavior
training.
It's based on behaviorism BFSkinner, very, very valuable for
(31:50):
building behaviors.
But I see dog training as twoelements.
You have behaviors, so you wantyour dog to sit, stay, you know
instant down and all this.
But we also and those are cuedbehaviors, those are behaviors
that we're involved in.
But then there's the conceptswhich I also consider skills.
These are the un-cued behaviors.
(32:10):
These are Tokyo's ability todisengage.
You're not cuing him todisengage, he's choosing, it's
his choice.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
It's like having the dog that makes all the right
decisions every single time.
Like, honestly beautiful.
He'd sit in the car park offlead and just watch the world go
by, dog after dog, aggressivedog, dog trying to interact with
him, dog trying to flirt withhim.
The only ones that would nowand again tempt him would be the
odd lady and he'd be like, andI'd be like.
Now and again, tempt him wouldbe the odd lady and he'd be like
, and I'd be like get over here,lie back down and be like can
(32:44):
you blame him?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
I mean, he was a good looking boy, you know, amazing
dog.
He was amazing Anyways.
Yeah, so skills are reallybased on on neuroscience, so
it's how the brain is formed.
And this comes back to puppiesand developing those early puppy
skills is we want them to, wewant to set them up to be able
to make those good choices, youknow, with puppies it's building
that relationship with you andI love, I love watching the
(33:04):
videos of you and Skittlesbuilding Skittles, you know,
relationship with you.
I mean, she is so charged towork with you enough to bite you
on the bum.
I love it.
I just I love her.
And then, of course, you want tomake sure you get that optimism
in as soon as possible.
And then the one that we allstruggle with, and it's
(33:25):
definitely our struggle, andthat is that ability to calm.
If you can get a dog to calm inmost spaces, you have a dog
that really is resilient, youknow, and that leads on to to my
other project, which is, youknow, disaster preparedness with
dogs resilient, you know, andthat leads on to to my other
project, which is, you know,disaster preparedness with dogs,
cause you know it's, if youhave a dog that has that skill
to be able to settle down in theface of all kinds of things,
(33:46):
you have a dog that can reset,you know, and that's you know,
back to defend your dog.
That's that's really valuablefor being able to get over an
event Like what happened toHarley.
If I was unable to get him intoa safe space where he could
calm down and just settle andreframe his mind, then he'd end
up like my terrier, rightDog-dog reactive.
(34:08):
He'd be worried about thingsAgain after that event.
Just to reiterate after an eventlike that happens, the best
thing we can do is have thosego-to games that are joyful for
our dogs, where it switches theminto a really positive mindset.
Get them home, make sure thatthey're well cared for and make
(34:34):
sure that they have a space tosettle down and to reset
themselves, Because we want themto try and forget that event,
just like we want to forget thatevent.
I mean, what are we going to do?
We're going to go and dosomething to make ourselves feel
better.
We want to help our dogs to beable to do something to help
them feel better.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Amanda, it's been amazing, it's been immense, and
I know there are so many peopleout there that are going to know
so much more when it comes todefending our dogs.
It's absolutely got to be agame that comes to Games Club
very soon, if it's not alreadythere.
I think it's going to get therepretty quickly.
Well done you, and I thank youso much for joining us for this
(35:06):
podcast.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Anytime.
I absolutely love being here,Lauren, and I absolutely love
chatting with you.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Amazing, amazing stuff.
So that was this episode.
Defend your dog, do it well.
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Please share it worldwide.
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