March 25, 2025 • 22 mins
Pulling on lead – it's the frustration that can transform a peaceful dog walk into an arm-wrenching ordeal. Whether you're dealing with a 7-kilo terrier or a 40-kilo German Shepherd, pulling creates a disconnection that leaves both ends of the leash frustrated and stressed.
In this revealing conversation, Lauren Langman and Dave tackle one of the most common dog walking complaints head-on. Drawing from their extensive experience with both pet dogs and professional working canines, they dispel the myth that pulling is just something dog owners must endure. Lauren shares how her own dog Skittles becomes almost cognitively impaired when in full pulling mode, while Dave recounts his journey challenging the traditional police dog training approach that encouraged pulling as a way to "build drive."
What makes this discussion particularly valuable is the practical, field-tested advice from trainers who've worked with thousands of dogs. You'll discover why environment management matters so much (hint: driving to the park instead of being pulled there makes a huge difference), how equipment choices can help or hinder your progress, and specific games you can play to create value in walking beside you. The trainers also explain why loose-leash walking isn't just about comfort—it's about safety, legal considerations, and the perception of control that affects how others view you and your dog.
Whether you're struggling with a dog who pulls like a freight train or just want to refine your walking experience, you'll find actionable techniques here that go beyond basic obedience into building a dog who genuinely wants to be with you. Ready to transform your walks? Learn how two world-class trainers solved their own pulling problems and how their 10 Days to Stop Pulling course can help you do the same.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lauren Langman (00:09):
Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel
podcast.
I'm Lauren Langman.
I'm one of the world's leadingdog trainers and it's my mission
to help owners become theirdog's top priority.
In each episode, you'lldiscover how to gain trust and
communicate with your dog likenever before, creating
unbreakable bonds that make youthe most exciting part of their
world.
Oh my god, pulling.
(00:30):
Pulling is one of my absolutepet hates when you're being
yanked in one direction or theother, your arms out of its
socket and even a little dog canwell skittles pulls me
everywhere.
What do you think about dogspulling on lead?
Wonderful, dave.
Dave Hibbert (00:47):
I'm with you.
I hate it, I can't stand it.
I just can't abide by a dogdragging me everywhere.
And I think sometimes it's notabout.
I think sometimes it can be anego thing oh, the dog's dragging
you everywhere, but it's notthat.
I just don't like it.
I don't like the look of it, Idon't like the feel of it.
Lauren Langman (01:08):
I think the majority of our listeners here
Sex and the Squirrel podcasthello guys, I'm super pleased
you're here, super pleasedyou're listening the majority of
you guys as listeners.
I know you'll hate it too.
As pet owners, you're going todislike it.
Now I'm going to give you acouple of examples here, because
both Dave and I have workingdogs and with working dogs
sometimes it can become a littlebit acceptable because they're
(01:29):
pulling you to their work orthey're pulling you to someone,
dave, in the police or in someform of services or military, or
they're pulling you to get intothe agility ring or they're
pulling you to do fly ball orwhatever else it might be.
But what I've really learned isthat when Skittles goes into
that crazy pull mode, I actuallyhave very little of a brain
anyway and I actually often whenI do go to work and she's in
(01:56):
that mode, there's actually nota lot to work Like she's
actually missing many pieces andshe actually isn't as cognitive
as I need her.
Now, dave, I think if we do abit of tips tennis on pulling,
alongside maybe some stories andI know you've got a story
because you've raised policedogs and dogs for services and
military Would you like to shareyour story?
Dave Hibbert (02:13):
Yeah, I think it's a really interesting one.
So, and it revolves aroundpulling.
So when I, when I first startedgetting involved in kind of
raising puppies and dogs, I gotgiven this dog and the
instruction when I got given itwas like take this dog
everywhere, let him drag youeverywhere.
We want to build confidence andwe want the dog to be doing
(02:33):
this, and so that was fine.
You know, I knew about dogtraining.
I thought it was a little bitstrange, but anyway, I went with
the flow and basically I hadthis dog, german Shepherd,
literally dragging me everywhereand anywhere, um, taking it to
the park, walking anywhere.
He was just dragging me andthat's reasonably okay because
(02:53):
the dog, when he was an adultdog, only weighed kind of 27
kilos.
So for a german shepherd that'squite small and dainty, um.
And then I kind of got my nextdog that I was developing again
same sort of routine.
The dog, you know, was a littlebit bigger but I could still
manage it.
But then by the third one, um,this dog was 27, 28 kilos when
(03:17):
he was six months old.
And so it got to the pointwhere I was just like I just a
my body can't take it and b,this can't.
This just doesn't make anysense to have a dog dragging you
everywhere and all this kind ofstuff.
So I started talking, teachinghim, um, loose lead walking so
not necessarily like formal heelwork or anything like that,
just I just wanted to be able totake the dog to the park with a
(03:40):
loose lead and and I waslambasted like oh my god, you're
gonna kill the dog's drive andyou can't possibly get the dog
to do this.
And it was a really reallystrange situation.
Um, but suffice to say itdidn't alter his ability to go
and be a really good workingpolice dog and catch bad people
(04:01):
and save lives of vulnerablepeople.
And then, when I started kindof really delving into it,
actually what I saw was the morekind of control you have over
the dog actually, the better thedog is at the other end when
you want it to be explosive andyou want it to be doing the
things you want to do.
So yeah, that was kind of myintroduction to realizing that
(04:24):
the kind of we've always done itthis way approach wasn't
necessarily the right approach.
Lauren Langman (04:30):
Amazing, and it really does.
It makes sense, doesn't it?
When you've got like a smalldog pulling.
Then we kind of get to a spacewhere we either tolerate it or
it's achievable or doable andit's not like going to hurt
anyone, Whereas actually youstart to get to some of those
like I mean I'll be really frankhere, skittles at seven kilos
is sometimes too much for meLike the way she will pull, like
(04:51):
she will pull, like she is sleddogging, and it hurts my body,
it hurts my brain.
It actually becomes quiteexhausting.
It certainly takes any joy outof walking for me.
So I don't know about you, butI, I don't enjoy that.
Walking like that doesn't feelgood.
It doesn't feel like you've gotany connection with the dog
that you're working or walkingwith no, I agree.
Dave Hibbert (05:10):
Just, and it makes it stressful and, like you
touched upon, you know, thedog's arousal level is so high
when it's pulling, because a lotof dogs actually enjoy the
sensation of the of the pull, um.
And so when you think about theabcs, the arousal level is so
high that actually they're noteven thinking really.
They're just so motivated anddetermined to pull.
(05:31):
It just doesn't becomeenjoyable or an enjoyable
experience all around.
Lauren Langman (05:37):
And I think that's one of the biggies for me
.
So let's go with some tips,because I know we can talk about
the problem and go round andround and round and round on the
problem, but actually what arethe tips?
What are the things that we cando?
What are the things we can doto help?
And I'm going to start with agame that I play with Skittle,
and I'm very happy for you toshare any of yours, dave,
because I know you've workedwith thousands of officers.
I know you've worked withthousands of dogs.
One of my first ones is if yourdog is pulling you, let's not
(05:59):
keep walking, let's stop thereinforcement from happening.
And so for me, if the dog isreally yanking and going, I will
just plant myself.
I'm like, planted like a treeand not one of those trees that
waves around in the storm.
I'm actually going to beplanted and you ain't moving me
and I will stop.
And if I need to anchor myselfby grabbing something, depending
on the dog I'm holding, I'llstop.
(06:20):
And I'll stop to the point thatthe dog has to kind of stop and
acknowledge me too, like I'mnot going to continue walking a
yanking dog.
We'll talk about what we mightdo afterwards in a minute, but
that would be my number one.
How about?
Dave Hibbert (06:32):
you, dave.
I think a lot of it iscontrolling that environment,
and I think the problemsometimes is people feel a
little bit stupid when they'redog training, don't they?
And you've got to?
You know, my favourite sayingis if you don't feel stupid,
you're not doing it right, andvery often that stops people
from doing the right thing.
So you know, if you've justwalked out your front door and
all of a sudden you're stop itand your neighbors are looking
(06:53):
out the window, it's, it's adifficult place to be, isn't it
where actually, sometimes Iwould say just, just, if you can
put the dog in the car, driveto where you need to go, ie, if
you go to the park, drive to thepark and then do some of those
exercises, because then it takesaway that kind of
self-consciousness about peoplewatching.
You take three hours to walk tothe park, um, to walk the dog,
(07:17):
and sometimes what's needed forthe dog is that, that approach,
but people are so self-consciousthat it kind of blocks their
ability to to deliver it.
So, yeah, I I would always say,if, if you are that person that
feels a little bitself-conscious, just pop the dog
in the car and get to where youneed to get to and then then do
, then do what you've justsuggested away from those nosy
(07:38):
neighbors I think that's massivedave and I know it's one of the
ones that we topped.
Lauren Langman (07:42):
We touched on the 10 days to stop pulling.
So we touched on um with the 10days to stop pulling, that
being exactly one of one of thereal issues.
One of the issues there is andme, for maybe slightly different
reasons, I will drive a doganywhere to go and train them
rather than give them theopportunity to rehearse, what I
don't want.
So all the time you're walkingto the park, you're under
pressure.
You've got maybe a timepressure, like you said, maybe
(08:02):
the neighbor's watching, maybeum, something um needs to happen
in in the interim, but actuallythat really isn't and they get,
they're getting to the, whichis the reinforcer.
So for me, I would do exactlywhat you said and I would drive
there, and so I'd split that up.
I would look at my mechanicsand, effectively, my transitions
(08:23):
, and that is a transition.
It's how I'm getting from A toB.
So it's a transition.
So I'm like, right, I'm justgoing to drive to the park and
when I get to the park I can dofive minutes boundary games, I
can do all the other fun thingsthat we play absolute dogs in
the games club and in pro dogtrainer club and and certainly
in the 10 days to stop pulling.
Um opportunity course 27 poundlifetime access like it's a mega
steal.
(08:43):
And I would say if that was me,that would probably be my single
like if your dog is rehearsingpulling, stop it, work out why
they're pulling you there andwork out how you can break it up
.
So I love that you said justput them in the car, let's not
actually have that battle there.
Let's get to the park and do 10minutes walking when we get to
(09:03):
the park.
Or let's get to the park andnot put them on lead so you're
not even having that moment ofstress, or let's have them on a
long line.
But what we don't want to do iswe don't want to allow them to
continue the reinforcement andknow that when the dog is
yanking to the park it isreinforcing because it's
behavior that's continuing tohappen and it's being reinforced
by getting to the park rightyeah, definitely.
Dave Hibbert (09:26):
I think, like you you just touched upon, when
you're at the park, it justtakes the pressure off a little
bit.
So one of the things I would do, as you suggested, is, when you
start off, start off with along lead, because the dog's got
to be quite far away from youin order to pull on it and feel
the tension.
So you know when we're workingwith dogs, you know very often
(09:47):
it would be on a long line.
So actually you can build thatengagement, you can build that
focus and these are all thethings you need to then overcome
the, the pulling, um, but yeah,definitely, having the dog on a
on a longer line is the wayforward.
Because what?
What you generally see is a lotof people actually make the line
shorter in order to try andpull the dog back, but actually
(10:08):
what happens is that makes it,that makes it worse, um, and
then you see things like peopleputting harnesses on dogs and
and then actually all thathappens is then the dog's weight
is spread across the dog'schest so that now they can pull
even even stronger, moredetermined and whilst I do use
harnesses, my way just toclarify for everyone would
(10:28):
always be a front clip, a backclip, or a front clip, a collar,
or a back clip, a collar.
Lauren Langman (10:33):
So actually what we're doing with harnesses, if
you're using a harness, is youare, um, getting a level of
connection on a two-end lead.
If I put my back clip on mydogs, it's sled dog running time
, so it means pull.
So my back clip means go ahead,eat your heart out.
We're pulling.
I typically use it when I'mwalking up a hill very top
technique for getting you up ahill fast.
(10:54):
So my dogs, I'm going up a hillVery top technique for getting
you up a hill fast.
So my dogs.
When I'm going up a hill, I'mlike, whack it on off, they go.
But actually, you're right,your toolkit is probably worth
touching base on.
So my toolkit I personally likea flat collar.
I will use a harness on somedogs, but it would be to use a
front clip, back clip or a frontclip, head collar or front clip
, collar or back clip.
It's a front clip, head collaror front clip, collar or back
(11:14):
clip.
It's a double clip situation.
So it's to give myself a doubleclip situation and then, um, I
have in the past, I would say,used um head collars.
I typically don't use headcollars unless I've got a really
eye dog, a very, very eyedriven dog, and so I will use a
head collar if I need two ofthose.
But my preference is a flatcollar and a long line, or a
flat collar and a lead, and andI know yours is too, dave, um,
because I mean Tokyo had thebest loose lead walking for me
(11:36):
and I think the biggest thingwas he never learned to pull.
He never, ever learned how topull.
So because he didn't know howto pull, he didn't ever rehearse
it.
Does that make sense?
Dave Hibbert (11:45):
yeah, definitely, I think that's the big thing.
You know when, when you've gotthe ability to shape a dog from
the start, then absolutely you'dnever give them the opportunity
to learn how to pull and whatpulling feels like.
Um.
So, but yeah, definitely, thethe long, long line and a and a
flat collar for me is is what Iwould always use.
Um, because you want to,ideally you want to teach the
(12:08):
dog to do it properly.
Um, as in, let the dog learn toloose, lead, walk no matter
what they're wearing.
Um, and I think that's the key.
Sometimes people get so fixatedon different things to almost
give the dog the cue of what youwant that sometimes you forget
that actually you can train thedog to the cue you're giving him
(12:28):
or her, depending on thesituation I've watched.
Lauren Langman (12:32):
I've watched you training like 10, 15 police
dogs in a field and you'd likepark up and it's rock up and
everyone might think that you'rejust going to go get the
baddies and go bring the baddiesdown.
But you actually will dosessions and lessons where
you're just doing lead walking.
So actually there's these likebig, bad sort of police dogs
that are like just they'repracticing their loose leash and
I really like that becausesometimes I saw you use it as a
(12:54):
way of like bringing the arousaldown and other times I saw you
as a way of just relationshipbuilding with a new handler.
That was definitely something Isaw you doing with um, malinois
, german Shepherds, um, as wellas actually even the Spaniels.
I did see you doing a littlebit with Spaniels, but typically
with the Belgian Shepherds andthe, the um Shepherd, the
Shepherds, the German Shepherds,the German Shepherds.
It was big.
Dave Hibbert (13:15):
Yeah, it's a really big thing for me.
I think one thing it reallyportrays, especially when you're
talking about, you know,professional working dog
handlers is, you know, theability to have a dog that just
walks, not necessarily, you know, in an obedient style heel work
routine, but a dog that justwalks next to you with a loose
lead, is is really professional.
And and one of the things I'dsay is, you know, again, very
(13:37):
often the old, old school thingwas oh, if you've got the
spaniels and the search dogs,just let them drag you
everywhere and pull youeverywhere, and I just don't
think it looks professional.
You know, we, if we're workingon a, an event such as, I don't
know, like the queen's funeralwe did, or the g7 world leaders
conference, and you've got a dogdragging you to the start of
the search and you've gotdignitaries and people, um,
(14:00):
watching.
I just don't think it's veryprofessional, um, and then, on
the flip side, you know, withthe general purpose dogs, you
know the dogs that go out andbite people.
Then I think that's even moreimportant because, for example,
if you're, if you've justdeployed your dog from the car
and you end up, you know two,three, four, five hundred meters
away from the car.
The dog's just bitten someoneor detained someone and now
(14:23):
you've got to walk back to thecar again.
You want that dog to be walkingin a in a way that shows that
you're professional and incontrol of of the dog.
You don't want a dog that'skind of on the end of the lead
like a whirling devilish dog.
Um, that just looksunprofessional they need to be.
Lauren Langman (14:41):
They need to, they need to be under control.
I mean, at the end of the day,the law is the dog is under
control and if your dog's notunder control and for me a dog,
it's lunging, barking, whirlingand spinning it's not under
control and our law especially,um, I'd say it's got stricter
and stricter, and sometimesrightly so, for sure, um, but it
would be that a dog needs to bein control and if dogs not in
(15:01):
control or under control, thenactually they're deemed
potentially dangerous under thedangerous dogs act and I think
we do need to consider that.
When I I I have been worried afew times.
I've seen a couple of verylarge dogs, one Neapolitan
Mastiff and the other was adog's Bordeaux, and where
they've really dragged theirowners towards me and the me was
me and three of my dogs, and Iknow that they're interested in
(15:22):
my three dogs.
However, are they scary whenthey do that?
Yeah, they're pretty scary andfor me, I know that you can feel
very uncomfortable if there'san owner that's out of control.
So if owners haven't got controlof, like the Neapolitan
Mastiffs and I'm not saying justthose breeds, I'm saying all
breeds but if your owner hasn'tgot control.
I know there are some peopleI'm like, yeah, eat your heart
out, have as many dogs as youlike, you know they're under
(15:43):
control, whereas some people Iwould say are really outdogged.
Kilo dog doesn't really matter.
Is the owner outdogged?
And what I mean by outdogged isdo they have too much dog on
the end of a lead or too muchdog that they own?
Dave Hibbert (15:59):
and I think we see that quite commonly yeah, I
think it's a really good pointand, like you said, you know,
biscuit, my little dog is.
She's only nine kilos but, boy,she can she pull it if, if I let
her.
Um, but I think you make areally good point around.
You know the perception of, youknow, dogs out of control.
So, for example, if you pulledup on a car park and you get
(16:19):
your dog out of the car and it'spulling you everywhere and
dragging you everywhere and allof a sudden it nips somebody,
you know, when they come backand look at the CCTV from that
car park to see the incident,then immediately someone will go
well, you, you didn't havecontrol over that dog from the
moment you got out of the car,as opposed to you know a dog
coming out of the car undercontrol, walking nicely next to
(16:41):
you.
If it then goes and nipssomeone, the perception of that
whole incident is going to bevery different based on what
people see on that cctv.
So it's not just a kind oflifestyle problem in terms of
not an enjoyable walk and allthe other stuff, but actually,
you know, there's thatperception piece and hopefully
no one ever gets into thatposition, but there's also the
(17:01):
legality piece as well.
Lauren Langman (17:03):
Absolutely, and that legality bit is huge.
Like I said, it's dangerousdogs act, it's welfare, it's
everything.
It's for the happiness ofsociety.
Now if we do a couple offavourite games one of my
favourite games, dave, that Iplay with Skittle Skittle
obviously is bonkers and she'smy worst lead pulling dog I've
ever owned Like I haven't ownedanything at lead pools like her.
She's like a husky, she likegets really determined and she
(17:26):
like digs in as well, like shereally digs in, like she can get
like really light and she canlike get like really light and
she can choke herself.
And so she really is quite agritty puller and I think I
taught some of it accidentallyby getting her to race to toys
on lead and then she like racesto life on lead, and so one of
my favorite tricks with her isif I'm out and about and I'm
walking and I've got some of herdaily food on me, I throw a
piece of food behind me and Ilet her catch up to heel
(17:48):
position.
I throw a piece of food behindme and I let her catch up to her
position.
So I do loads of that when I'mout with her, partly because I
like to see if I've got herbrain still, and partly because
I use part of her daily food andpartly because I think it's a
nice relationship game andpartly because it puts
reinforcement zone sort of at mytrouser leg seam line.
That's where I want her and Iwant her to learn that actually
this is a reinforcement space.
(18:09):
So I throw the food away,reward her back.
Throw the food away but rewardher back.
But I always throw the foodbehind me.
Um, how about?
Dave Hibbert (18:21):
you have you got any sort of other tips or other
games or anything you like to dowith your guys?
Yeah, I think I think the bigone for for me is that kind of
engagement with with a toy,whether it be a rag or whether
it be a ball, whether it be akong, um, because I'd always
build that in a dog, you know,whether it's a pet dog or
working dog, that that's.
I'd want to build, thatmotivation for whatever toy kind
of turns them on.
And so you know it's.
It's a case really of luringthe dog by showing them the toy
(18:45):
and if they take a few stepsnext to you, um, in a good way,
then they're just rewarded withthe, with the toy and again, the
placement of that toy.
I'll be throwing it kind ofover the back of their head so
they almost have to back up alittle bit and catch the toy.
And that's really importantbecause you know, sometimes I
see people throwing the toyforward and all of a sudden the
dog then lunges forward and isreinforced for pulling on the
(19:06):
lead.
So it is about those mechanicsand making sure your toy, your
reward placement is good, butsimilar sort of thing to the
food.
But I like to use toys, I liketo get the dog motivated.
But again, sometimes you canhave the fallout of that is, the
dog's arousal level gets quitehigh quite quickly and so, like
(19:27):
I say, that's why if you'vedriven to the park and you're
away from the environment andyou're just focusing on the
training session for loose leadwalking, then actually you can
do some very little smallrepetitions and then let the dog
back on the line and and doingtheir own thing, not pulling and
I like that with um, the 10days course.
Lauren Langman (19:45):
If you've got the 10 days course, go get it
and have a look at it and divein.
If you haven't got the 10 days,to stop pulling, course,
lifetime access 27.
What I like, dave, is it givesus lots of little options,
little games like that, likeyour little raggy game, my
little food game.
Lots of little options that youcan play and ultimately build a
dog who wants to be close toyou.
And I think probably one of thehappy side effects when you
(20:06):
teach your dogs to stop pulling,you actually teach your dog to
want to be with you, and so forme, it enhances recall, it
enhances relationship, itenhances proximity, enhances a
dog who generally wants to hangout with you.
What do you think?
Dave Hibbert (20:19):
I, I totally agree , and one of the things I always
talk about is teaching your dogthe art of doing nothing.
And I think this falls intothat same category, because very
often we we put the dog on alead because we're going to do
something.
We're either going to the park,or we're taking them out to the
toilet, or we're going to thestart of an agility, or you know
we might be going out to dosome bike work exercises.
So the dog instantly thinks, assoon as that lead comes on,
(20:42):
they're going to do something.
Um, whereas I place a lot ofemphasis on, you know, the lead
goes on and we actually teachthe dog the art of doing nothing
, and so we almost break thatexpectation that the dog is
going somewhere or going to dosomething, and that's a really
big thing for me.
It's something I've placed agreat emphasis on more recently.
You know, the art of doingnothing is key.
Lauren Langman (21:06):
I love it, really love it.
Well, guys, it's Stop Pulling.
If you haven't already, go grabthe Stop Pulling course.
I really, really, really knowyou're going to love it.
£27 lifetime access.
It's reduced from £97.
So it's a real bargain.
I hope you've enjoyed Dave andI chatting pulling.
We know you can solve it.
We've solved it and we know youcan do it too, especially with
(21:28):
us supporting you.
Guys, make it an amazing dayand we'll see you next week for
another round of the sexier thana squirrel podcast.
Welcome to the Absolute Dog Sex in a Squirrel
podcast.
I'm Lauren Langman.
I'm one of the world's leadingdog trainers and it's my mission
to help owners become theirdog's top priority.
In each episode, you'lldiscover how to gain trust and
communicate with your dog likenever before, creating
unbreakable bonds that make youthe most exciting part of their
world.
Oh my god, pulling.
(00:30):
Pulling is one of my absolutepet hates when you're being
yanked in one direction or theother, your arms out of its
socket and even a little dog canwell skittles pulls me
everywhere.
What do you think about dogspulling on lead?
Wonderful, dave.
Dave Hibbert (00:47):
I'm with you.
I hate it, I can't stand it.
I just can't abide by a dogdragging me everywhere.
And I think sometimes it's notabout.
I think sometimes it can be anego thing oh, the dog's dragging
you everywhere, but it's notthat.
I just don't like it.
I don't like the look of it, Idon't like the feel of it.
Lauren Langman (01:08):
I think the majority of our listeners here
Sex and the Squirrel podcasthello guys, I'm super pleased
you're here, super pleasedyou're listening the majority of
you guys as listeners.
I know you'll hate it too.
As pet owners, you're going todislike it.
Now I'm going to give you acouple of examples here, because
both Dave and I have workingdogs and with working dogs
sometimes it can become a littlebit acceptable because they're
(01:29):
pulling you to their work orthey're pulling you to someone,
dave, in the police or in someform of services or military, or
they're pulling you to get intothe agility ring or they're
pulling you to do fly ball orwhatever else it might be.
But what I've really learned isthat when Skittles goes into
that crazy pull mode, I actuallyhave very little of a brain
anyway and I actually often whenI do go to work and she's in
(01:56):
that mode, there's actually nota lot to work Like she's
actually missing many pieces andshe actually isn't as cognitive
as I need her.
Now, dave, I think if we do abit of tips tennis on pulling,
alongside maybe some stories andI know you've got a story
because you've raised policedogs and dogs for services and
military Would you like to shareyour story?
Dave Hibbert (02:13):
Yeah, I think it's a really interesting one.
So, and it revolves aroundpulling.
So when I, when I first startedgetting involved in kind of
raising puppies and dogs, I gotgiven this dog and the
instruction when I got given itwas like take this dog
everywhere, let him drag youeverywhere.
We want to build confidence andwe want the dog to be doing
(02:33):
this, and so that was fine.
You know, I knew about dogtraining.
I thought it was a little bitstrange, but anyway, I went with
the flow and basically I hadthis dog, german Shepherd,
literally dragging me everywhereand anywhere, um, taking it to
the park, walking anywhere.
He was just dragging me andthat's reasonably okay because
(02:53):
the dog, when he was an adultdog, only weighed kind of 27
kilos.
So for a german shepherd that'squite small and dainty, um.
And then I kind of got my nextdog that I was developing again
same sort of routine.
The dog, you know, was a littlebit bigger but I could still
manage it.
But then by the third one, um,this dog was 27, 28 kilos when
(03:17):
he was six months old.
And so it got to the pointwhere I was just like I just a
my body can't take it and b,this can't.
This just doesn't make anysense to have a dog dragging you
everywhere and all this kind ofstuff.
So I started talking, teachinghim, um, loose lead walking so
not necessarily like formal heelwork or anything like that,
just I just wanted to be able totake the dog to the park with a
(03:40):
loose lead and and I waslambasted like oh my god, you're
gonna kill the dog's drive andyou can't possibly get the dog
to do this.
And it was a really reallystrange situation.
Um, but suffice to say itdidn't alter his ability to go
and be a really good workingpolice dog and catch bad people
(04:01):
and save lives of vulnerablepeople.
And then, when I started kindof really delving into it,
actually what I saw was the morekind of control you have over
the dog actually, the better thedog is at the other end when
you want it to be explosive andyou want it to be doing the
things you want to do.
So yeah, that was kind of myintroduction to realizing that
(04:24):
the kind of we've always done itthis way approach wasn't
necessarily the right approach.
Lauren Langman (04:30):
Amazing, and it really does.
It makes sense, doesn't it?
When you've got like a smalldog pulling.
Then we kind of get to a spacewhere we either tolerate it or
it's achievable or doable andit's not like going to hurt
anyone, Whereas actually youstart to get to some of those
like I mean I'll be really frankhere, skittles at seven kilos
is sometimes too much for meLike the way she will pull, like
(04:51):
she will pull, like she is sleddogging, and it hurts my body,
it hurts my brain.
It actually becomes quiteexhausting.
It certainly takes any joy outof walking for me.
So I don't know about you, butI, I don't enjoy that.
Walking like that doesn't feelgood.
It doesn't feel like you've gotany connection with the dog
that you're working or walkingwith no, I agree.
Dave Hibbert (05:10):
Just, and it makes it stressful and, like you
touched upon, you know, thedog's arousal level is so high
when it's pulling, because a lotof dogs actually enjoy the
sensation of the of the pull, um.
And so when you think about theabcs, the arousal level is so
high that actually they're noteven thinking really.
They're just so motivated anddetermined to pull.
(05:31):
It just doesn't becomeenjoyable or an enjoyable
experience all around.
Lauren Langman (05:37):
And I think that's one of the biggies for me
.
So let's go with some tips,because I know we can talk about
the problem and go round andround and round and round on the
problem, but actually what arethe tips?
What are the things that we cando?
What are the things we can doto help?
And I'm going to start with agame that I play with Skittle,
and I'm very happy for you toshare any of yours, dave,
because I know you've workedwith thousands of officers.
I know you've worked withthousands of dogs.
One of my first ones is if yourdog is pulling you, let's not
(05:59):
keep walking, let's stop thereinforcement from happening.
And so for me, if the dog isreally yanking and going, I will
just plant myself.
I'm like, planted like a treeand not one of those trees that
waves around in the storm.
I'm actually going to beplanted and you ain't moving me
and I will stop.
And if I need to anchor myselfby grabbing something, depending
on the dog I'm holding, I'llstop.
(06:20):
And I'll stop to the point thatthe dog has to kind of stop and
acknowledge me too, like I'mnot going to continue walking a
yanking dog.
We'll talk about what we mightdo afterwards in a minute, but
that would be my number one.
How about?
Dave Hibbert (06:32):
you, dave.
I think a lot of it iscontrolling that environment,
and I think the problemsometimes is people feel a
little bit stupid when they'redog training, don't they?
And you've got to?
You know, my favourite sayingis if you don't feel stupid,
you're not doing it right, andvery often that stops people
from doing the right thing.
So you know, if you've justwalked out your front door and
all of a sudden you're stop itand your neighbors are looking
(06:53):
out the window, it's, it's adifficult place to be, isn't it
where actually, sometimes Iwould say just, just, if you can
put the dog in the car, driveto where you need to go, ie, if
you go to the park, drive to thepark and then do some of those
exercises, because then it takesaway that kind of
self-consciousness about peoplewatching.
You take three hours to walk tothe park, um, to walk the dog,
(07:17):
and sometimes what's needed forthe dog is that, that approach,
but people are so self-consciousthat it kind of blocks their
ability to to deliver it.
So, yeah, I I would always say,if, if you are that person that
feels a little bitself-conscious, just pop the dog
in the car and get to where youneed to get to and then then do
, then do what you've justsuggested away from those nosy
(07:38):
neighbors I think that's massivedave and I know it's one of the
ones that we topped.
Lauren Langman (07:42):
We touched on the 10 days to stop pulling.
So we touched on um with the 10days to stop pulling, that
being exactly one of one of thereal issues.
One of the issues there is andme, for maybe slightly different
reasons, I will drive a doganywhere to go and train them
rather than give them theopportunity to rehearse, what I
don't want.
So all the time you're walkingto the park, you're under
pressure.
You've got maybe a timepressure, like you said, maybe
(08:02):
the neighbor's watching, maybeum, something um needs to happen
in in the interim, but actuallythat really isn't and they get,
they're getting to the, whichis the reinforcer.
So for me, I would do exactlywhat you said and I would drive
there, and so I'd split that up.
I would look at my mechanicsand, effectively, my transitions
(08:23):
, and that is a transition.
It's how I'm getting from A toB.
So it's a transition.
So I'm like, right, I'm justgoing to drive to the park and
when I get to the park I can dofive minutes boundary games, I
can do all the other fun thingsthat we play absolute dogs in
the games club and in pro dogtrainer club and and certainly
in the 10 days to stop pulling.
Um opportunity course 27 poundlifetime access like it's a mega
steal.
(08:43):
And I would say if that was me,that would probably be my single
like if your dog is rehearsingpulling, stop it, work out why
they're pulling you there andwork out how you can break it up
.
So I love that you said justput them in the car, let's not
actually have that battle there.
Let's get to the park and do 10minutes walking when we get to
(09:03):
the park.
Or let's get to the park andnot put them on lead so you're
not even having that moment ofstress, or let's have them on a
long line.
But what we don't want to do iswe don't want to allow them to
continue the reinforcement andknow that when the dog is
yanking to the park it isreinforcing because it's
behavior that's continuing tohappen and it's being reinforced
by getting to the park rightyeah, definitely.
Dave Hibbert (09:26):
I think, like you you just touched upon, when
you're at the park, it justtakes the pressure off a little
bit.
So one of the things I would do, as you suggested, is, when you
start off, start off with along lead, because the dog's got
to be quite far away from youin order to pull on it and feel
the tension.
So you know when we're workingwith dogs, you know very often
(09:47):
it would be on a long line.
So actually you can build thatengagement, you can build that
focus and these are all thethings you need to then overcome
the, the pulling, um, but yeah,definitely, having the dog on a
on a longer line is the wayforward.
Because what?
What you generally see is a lotof people actually make the line
shorter in order to try andpull the dog back, but actually
(10:08):
what happens is that makes it,that makes it worse, um, and
then you see things like peopleputting harnesses on dogs and
and then actually all thathappens is then the dog's weight
is spread across the dog'schest so that now they can pull
even even stronger, moredetermined and whilst I do use
harnesses, my way just toclarify for everyone would
(10:28):
always be a front clip, a backclip, or a front clip, a collar,
or a back clip, a collar.
Lauren Langman (10:33):
So actually what we're doing with harnesses, if
you're using a harness, is youare, um, getting a level of
connection on a two-end lead.
If I put my back clip on mydogs, it's sled dog running time
, so it means pull.
So my back clip means go ahead,eat your heart out.
We're pulling.
I typically use it when I'mwalking up a hill very top
technique for getting you up ahill fast.
(10:54):
So my dogs, I'm going up a hillVery top technique for getting
you up a hill fast.
So my dogs.
When I'm going up a hill, I'mlike, whack it on off, they go.
But actually, you're right,your toolkit is probably worth
touching base on.
So my toolkit I personally likea flat collar.
I will use a harness on somedogs, but it would be to use a
front clip, back clip or a frontclip, head collar or front clip
, collar or back clip.
It's a front clip, head collaror front clip, collar or back
(11:14):
clip.
It's a double clip situation.
So it's to give myself a doubleclip situation and then, um, I
have in the past, I would say,used um head collars.
I typically don't use headcollars unless I've got a really
eye dog, a very, very eyedriven dog, and so I will use a
head collar if I need two ofthose.
But my preference is a flatcollar and a long line, or a
flat collar and a lead, and andI know yours is too, dave, um,
because I mean Tokyo had thebest loose lead walking for me
(11:36):
and I think the biggest thingwas he never learned to pull.
He never, ever learned how topull.
So because he didn't know howto pull, he didn't ever rehearse
it.
Does that make sense?
Dave Hibbert (11:45):
yeah, definitely, I think that's the big thing.
You know when, when you've gotthe ability to shape a dog from
the start, then absolutely you'dnever give them the opportunity
to learn how to pull and whatpulling feels like.
Um.
So, but yeah, definitely, thethe long, long line and a and a
flat collar for me is is what Iwould always use.
Um, because you want to,ideally you want to teach the
(12:08):
dog to do it properly.
Um, as in, let the dog learn toloose, lead, walk no matter
what they're wearing.
Um, and I think that's the key.
Sometimes people get so fixatedon different things to almost
give the dog the cue of what youwant that sometimes you forget
that actually you can train thedog to the cue you're giving him
(12:28):
or her, depending on thesituation I've watched.
Lauren Langman (12:32):
I've watched you training like 10, 15 police
dogs in a field and you'd likepark up and it's rock up and
everyone might think that you'rejust going to go get the
baddies and go bring the baddiesdown.
But you actually will dosessions and lessons where
you're just doing lead walking.
So actually there's these likebig, bad sort of police dogs
that are like just they'repracticing their loose leash and
I really like that becausesometimes I saw you use it as a
(12:54):
way of like bringing the arousaldown and other times I saw you
as a way of just relationshipbuilding with a new handler.
That was definitely something Isaw you doing with um, malinois
, german Shepherds, um, as wellas actually even the Spaniels.
I did see you doing a littlebit with Spaniels, but typically
with the Belgian Shepherds andthe, the um Shepherd, the
Shepherds, the German Shepherds,the German Shepherds.
It was big.
Dave Hibbert (13:15):
Yeah, it's a really big thing for me.
I think one thing it reallyportrays, especially when you're
talking about, you know,professional working dog
handlers is, you know, theability to have a dog that just
walks, not necessarily, you know, in an obedient style heel work
routine, but a dog that justwalks next to you with a loose
lead, is is really professional.
And and one of the things I'dsay is, you know, again, very
(13:37):
often the old, old school thingwas oh, if you've got the
spaniels and the search dogs,just let them drag you
everywhere and pull youeverywhere, and I just don't
think it looks professional.
You know, we, if we're workingon a, an event such as, I don't
know, like the queen's funeralwe did, or the g7 world leaders
conference, and you've got a dogdragging you to the start of
the search and you've gotdignitaries and people, um,
(14:00):
watching.
I just don't think it's veryprofessional, um, and then, on
the flip side, you know, withthe general purpose dogs, you
know the dogs that go out andbite people.
Then I think that's even moreimportant because, for example,
if you're, if you've justdeployed your dog from the car
and you end up, you know two,three, four, five hundred meters
away from the car.
The dog's just bitten someoneor detained someone and now
(14:23):
you've got to walk back to thecar again.
You want that dog to be walkingin a in a way that shows that
you're professional and incontrol of of the dog.
You don't want a dog that'skind of on the end of the lead
like a whirling devilish dog.
Um, that just looksunprofessional they need to be.
Lauren Langman (14:41):
They need to, they need to be under control.
I mean, at the end of the day,the law is the dog is under
control and if your dog's notunder control and for me a dog,
it's lunging, barking, whirlingand spinning it's not under
control and our law especially,um, I'd say it's got stricter
and stricter, and sometimesrightly so, for sure, um, but it
would be that a dog needs to bein control and if dogs not in
(15:01):
control or under control, thenactually they're deemed
potentially dangerous under thedangerous dogs act and I think
we do need to consider that.
When I I I have been worried afew times.
I've seen a couple of verylarge dogs, one Neapolitan
Mastiff and the other was adog's Bordeaux, and where
they've really dragged theirowners towards me and the me was
me and three of my dogs, and Iknow that they're interested in
(15:22):
my three dogs.
However, are they scary whenthey do that?
Yeah, they're pretty scary andfor me, I know that you can feel
very uncomfortable if there'san owner that's out of control.
So if owners haven't got controlof, like the Neapolitan
Mastiffs and I'm not saying justthose breeds, I'm saying all
breeds but if your owner hasn'tgot control.
I know there are some peopleI'm like, yeah, eat your heart
out, have as many dogs as youlike, you know they're under
(15:43):
control, whereas some people Iwould say are really outdogged.
Kilo dog doesn't really matter.
Is the owner outdogged?
And what I mean by outdogged isdo they have too much dog on
the end of a lead or too muchdog that they own?
Dave Hibbert (15:59):
and I think we see that quite commonly yeah, I
think it's a really good pointand, like you said, you know,
biscuit, my little dog is.
She's only nine kilos but, boy,she can she pull it if, if I let
her.
Um, but I think you make areally good point around.
You know the perception of, youknow, dogs out of control.
So, for example, if you pulledup on a car park and you get
(16:19):
your dog out of the car and it'spulling you everywhere and
dragging you everywhere and allof a sudden it nips somebody,
you know, when they come backand look at the CCTV from that
car park to see the incident,then immediately someone will go
well, you, you didn't havecontrol over that dog from the
moment you got out of the car,as opposed to you know a dog
coming out of the car undercontrol, walking nicely next to
(16:41):
you.
If it then goes and nipssomeone, the perception of that
whole incident is going to bevery different based on what
people see on that cctv.
So it's not just a kind oflifestyle problem in terms of
not an enjoyable walk and allthe other stuff, but actually,
you know, there's thatperception piece and hopefully
no one ever gets into thatposition, but there's also the
(17:01):
legality piece as well.
Lauren Langman (17:03):
Absolutely, and that legality bit is huge.
Like I said, it's dangerousdogs act, it's welfare, it's
everything.
It's for the happiness ofsociety.
Now if we do a couple offavourite games one of my
favourite games, dave, that Iplay with Skittle Skittle
obviously is bonkers and she'smy worst lead pulling dog I've
ever owned Like I haven't ownedanything at lead pools like her.
She's like a husky, she likegets really determined and she
(17:26):
like digs in as well, like shereally digs in, like she can get
like really light and she canlike get like really light and
she can choke herself.
And so she really is quite agritty puller and I think I
taught some of it accidentallyby getting her to race to toys
on lead and then she like racesto life on lead, and so one of
my favorite tricks with her isif I'm out and about and I'm
walking and I've got some of herdaily food on me, I throw a
piece of food behind me and Ilet her catch up to heel
(17:48):
position.
I throw a piece of food behindme and I let her catch up to her
position.
So I do loads of that when I'mout with her, partly because I
like to see if I've got herbrain still, and partly because
I use part of her daily food andpartly because I think it's a
nice relationship game andpartly because it puts
reinforcement zone sort of at mytrouser leg seam line.
That's where I want her and Iwant her to learn that actually
this is a reinforcement space.
(18:09):
So I throw the food away,reward her back.
Throw the food away but rewardher back.
But I always throw the foodbehind me.
Um, how about?
Dave Hibbert (18:21):
you have you got any sort of other tips or other
games or anything you like to dowith your guys?
Yeah, I think I think the bigone for for me is that kind of
engagement with with a toy,whether it be a rag or whether
it be a ball, whether it be akong, um, because I'd always
build that in a dog, you know,whether it's a pet dog or
working dog, that that's.
I'd want to build, thatmotivation for whatever toy kind
of turns them on.
And so you know it's.
It's a case really of luringthe dog by showing them the toy
(18:45):
and if they take a few stepsnext to you, um, in a good way,
then they're just rewarded withthe, with the toy and again, the
placement of that toy.
I'll be throwing it kind ofover the back of their head so
they almost have to back up alittle bit and catch the toy.
And that's really importantbecause you know, sometimes I
see people throwing the toyforward and all of a sudden the
dog then lunges forward and isreinforced for pulling on the
(19:06):
lead.
So it is about those mechanicsand making sure your toy, your
reward placement is good, butsimilar sort of thing to the
food.
But I like to use toys, I liketo get the dog motivated.
But again, sometimes you canhave the fallout of that is, the
dog's arousal level gets quitehigh quite quickly and so, like
(19:27):
I say, that's why if you'vedriven to the park and you're
away from the environment andyou're just focusing on the
training session for loose leadwalking, then actually you can
do some very little smallrepetitions and then let the dog
back on the line and and doingtheir own thing, not pulling and
I like that with um, the 10days course.
Lauren Langman (19:45):
If you've got the 10 days course, go get it
and have a look at it and divein.
If you haven't got the 10 days,to stop pulling, course,
lifetime access 27.
What I like, dave, is it givesus lots of little options,
little games like that, likeyour little raggy game, my
little food game.
Lots of little options that youcan play and ultimately build a
dog who wants to be close toyou.
And I think probably one of thehappy side effects when you
(20:06):
teach your dogs to stop pulling,you actually teach your dog to
want to be with you, and so forme, it enhances recall, it
enhances relationship, itenhances proximity, enhances a
dog who generally wants to hangout with you.
What do you think?
Dave Hibbert (20:19):
I, I totally agree , and one of the things I always
talk about is teaching your dogthe art of doing nothing.
And I think this falls intothat same category, because very
often we we put the dog on alead because we're going to do
something.
We're either going to the park,or we're taking them out to the
toilet, or we're going to thestart of an agility, or you know
we might be going out to dosome bike work exercises.
So the dog instantly thinks, assoon as that lead comes on,
(20:42):
they're going to do something.
Um, whereas I place a lot ofemphasis on, you know, the lead
goes on and we actually teachthe dog the art of doing nothing
, and so we almost break thatexpectation that the dog is
going somewhere or going to dosomething, and that's a really
big thing for me.
It's something I've placed agreat emphasis on more recently.
You know, the art of doingnothing is key.
Lauren Langman (21:06):
I love it, really love it.
Well, guys, it's Stop Pulling.
If you haven't already, go grabthe Stop Pulling course.
I really, really, really knowyou're going to love it.
£27 lifetime access.
It's reduced from £97.
So it's a real bargain.
I hope you've enjoyed Dave andI chatting pulling.
We know you can solve it.
We've solved it and we know youcan do it too, especially with
(21:28):
us supporting you.
Guys, make it an amazing dayand we'll see you next week for
another round of the sexier thana squirrel podcast.
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