The #1 Mindset Shift That Turned My Life Around: Devin C. Hughes on Gratitude, Joy & Healing

In this heartfelt conversation, Lisane Basquiat sits down with author and speaker Devin C. Hughes to explore what it means to find joy, healing, and purpose through lived experience. Devin opens up about his biracial identity, childhood challenges, and the journey of unlearning trauma to cultivate emotional wellbeing. Together, they dive into the power of gratitude, conscious parenting, and the importance of vulnerability, storytelling, and rewriting personal narratives. From his book Contrast to his inspiring children’s literature, Devin shares how he’s reshaping the next generation’s beliefs—one authentic story at a time.

Learn how to set boundaries without guilt. Join Lisane's next Protect Your Peace Shaping Session today: https://shapingfreedom.com/boundaries-workshop

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
When I looked at the research that the happiest people
on the planet they just had happiness habits. It was
happiness hygiene. I'm a better human when I'm at a
better place emotionally, I'm a better dad, coworker, human. I'm like, well,
if I'm a better human being, why wouldn't I want
to get myself in a better place more days? Gratitude
is a one I fall back off. I'm very intentional

(00:25):
about how I start my days and I in my days.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to the Shaping Freedom Podcast, where we dive into
conversations that inspire personal growth, transformation, and clarity in challenging times.
I'm your host, Lessan Basquiat. I believe that the stories
that we tell ourselves and the ones that we pass
on shape everything. My guest today, Devin Hughes, knows this deeply.

(00:52):
Devin is an author, a speaker, and a storyteller who
helps people unlearn what no longer serves them and replace
it with habits, mindsets and stories that create joy, connection,
and freedom. He's written across generations, from his powerful memoir
Contrast A Biracial Man's Journey to Desegregate his Past, to

(01:15):
simple tips to being a happier you to his beautifully
crafted children's books that help kids believe in themselves. His
work blends the science of positive psychology with the art
of lived experience, and his message is clear that we
can rewrite our story and that we can shape a
better one for those that come after us and those

(01:37):
that we're around during this lifetime. As you listen, I
invite you to reflect on your own story. What are
you carrying that you might be ready to set down,
and what new story are you willing to tell yourself?
Starting with today? Hi, Devin, how are you. I'm good.

(02:02):
I'm doing okay. Yeah, how about you?

Speaker 1 (02:06):
I'm good. I'm excited to be here with you today.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
I'm excited to have you. How was your weekend?

Speaker 1 (02:12):
My weekend? My weekend was quick as usual. What do
we do? You know? I don't think I did a
whole lot. I get joy in the benign moments, the walks,
the coffee, the dog, the writing. Nothing big, harry and audacious,
just kind of being present.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah. I love my weekends. Also, this was Independence weekend.
We're taping this or having this conversation right after Independence weekend,
and I enjoy a genderless time off that's the thing
for me, because I'm so scheduled during the week that

(02:50):
having time where I don't have to think about anything
but what I feel like doing or thinking about feels
like a big old gift.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, it's interesting you say that. I'm I'm trying to
shift from doing to just being, and this weekend I
was just being, just being present.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
That's amazing. Is what's the benefit of that?

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Just because I you know, as I look at my life,
and I'm a lot more reflective now at this point.
Most of us get about eighty summers. We're lucky eighty
summers in a lot eighty summers, and so I'm a
lot closer to the finish line than the starting line.
And so I'm just trying to be consciously conscious and

(03:35):
not fly through all those moments because it's the only
thing that really mattered to me right now is having
more of them.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah, I love that. I think that's one of the
things I'm thinking about. A conversation that I had earlier
today around the fact that things move so quickly, and
we seem to work against ourselves and push things along
quicker at a faster pace than they really need to

(04:04):
be pushed, and the result of that is or the
consequence of that is not a positive one, because what
it means is that we miss so much, and we
most of all miss ourselves, Like we missed the opportunity to,
like you said, go for a walk and just enjoy
your dog. That's okay too, that's an accomplishment.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, yeah, well, I mean I guess, like a lot
of people, I felt like if I wasn't constantly grinding, curating, iterating,
doing that, I wasn't maximizing my gifts. Yeah, and so
part of it is recharging my emotional battery. I think
I'm more creative when I'm in a better place. And second,
and is the most when I looked at the totality

(04:46):
of my life, like you don't remember all the aggregate moments,
but the moments that mattered the months I was just
being I mean it was on a front porch with
a lemonade and a handshake, front on a curb. Yeah,
it was on a couch. And I'm like, how do
I create more of those serendipitous moments where there's no agenda,
it's not transactional, it's just human to human just connecting

(05:07):
and talking and being messy and just so either way,
So that was my weekend and it was like it
was amazing. I felt recharged, I felt energized, I smiled,
I laughed. That was all the above.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
That's wonderful. Yeah, you wrote a book on simple Tips
to be Happier, and in that book you talk about joy,
just every day kind of joy, which is really kind
of what you're talking about now. Is there a habit
that you have today that still centers you?

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, yeah, or a routine? Yeah, so several, but I
think the one that I think that I think kind
of stays with me. And again, it's interesting you said
habit because when I when I looked at the research
the happiest people on the planet, and I was trying
to discern between them and me and us and everyone
right was the happiest people. They just had happiness habits.

(06:00):
It was happiness hygiene. And so to my simple brand,
I was like, Okay, I'm a better human when I'm
in a better place emotionally, I'm a better dad, coworker human.
I'm like, well, if I'm a better human being, why
wouldn't I want to get myself in a better place
more days? And so, like everything else, I was like, Okay, well,

(06:20):
then I need to develop some of these habits. So
to answer question full circle, gratitude is the one I
fall back on. I'm very intentional about how I start
my days and I end my days. I wake up,
I'm blessed to wake up, and I think about again,
what's you know, what's one thing that I'm grateful for?
What happened? Yes, said that I'm grateful for, just to
kind of close the chapter, just to remind me that

(06:41):
things are happening. And then at the end of the day,
I do something similar, just do a little pause and
just kind of self check because I think me personally
is that one of our greatest addictions in the new
normal is focusing on all our problems and discounting our blessings.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
That's right, unfortunate. Yeah, And so I'm just that is correct, unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
So I'm just I'm not saying the world's not upside down,
and I'm not being talking, you know, on the Pollyanna
about the world. But even in the midst of the storm,
I'm still intentional about finding things to be grateful for.
So that's the one thing that I would say.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, And I think it's also I think the principle
biblical and life principle that you reap what you sew
is is true when you spend your time thinking about
and focusing on all the horrible things that are in
the world, that is what becomes front and center in
your day and in your moment.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah, and when.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
We have the pause, when we hit the pause button
throughout the day to remember that, Yeah, maybe you dropped
your coffee on your way out of the coffee shop,
but but you didn't drop your laptop, or someone smiled
at you, or you got up today. I think that

(08:01):
when we help ourselves through habits and practice to focus
more on the things that are that bring us joy,
it helps overall. And so I know, for me, when
I'm feeling in the dumps and I'm whining about something,
thinking about a couple of things that I'm grateful for
always helps kind of snap me back into the reality

(08:22):
of life. Because, yes, there's a lot of crap happening
in the world. You know, there's a lot happening in
the world, but there's also a lot of great stuff
happening in the world if you look for it.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, and I would argue again that again, my personal
experience is in that same vein. One of our other bigger,
greatest addictions right now is sharing bad news. Right, if
something happens, it's MESSI we share like you know what
I mean, like quick, that's right. So the thing that
I'm trying to flip the script personally and professionally is

(08:52):
that I would argue the universe is neutral. It's what
we publish it. But we tend to publish you know,
national news, international news. So yeah, I can have to
say what it is. We all know, guys, is all
this stuff. So I'm very intentional about when good things
happen in my inner circle. I share it, not to
sensationalize it, just to go it was amazing, and by
the way, just to remind people that good things are

(09:15):
happening too, because I find, at least me and the
people that I hang around with, we talk about things
that matter. If I'm bringing it up, it's clearly important.
So I'm just I just hey, have you seen this
or that was amazing? Yeah, And so the conversations tend
to be a little different.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, I think also we not all of us, but
it seems more normal. And I'm putting the air quotes
to embrace bad news. You know, we all know that person,
this happened, and that happened, and like take the bad
news and wear it almost you know, my illness, my

(09:53):
this my problem, and then shirk attention toward the positive
things that happen.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
You know.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
It's like we were like I'd love to flip the
script where we're embracing the wonderful things and we come
to expect the wonderful things knowing that, you know, things
that are not so great come come around. Yeah, but
I think that it also fortifies us to be able
to deal with those things and to know how to
navigate them when we're focused on you know, healthy happy

(10:24):
habits and joy.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, and not every day is joyful. I get it.
Some days are harder than others. And when I find
myself in a place where I'm not, you know, I'm
not where I need to be emotionally, then then I don't.
Then I pivot and I and I work on something
that you know, maybe I FaceTime my child, maybe go
for a walk, maybe I put on my favorite song,
but I do something, you know, and mean to get

(10:48):
through it, because again, you cannot pour from an empty cup.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
You cannot.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
And so I know that right, and I know that.
So sometimes it feels like the people around me are
poking holes in my cups. Yes, sometimes the people are
you know, stealing the cup, you know what I mean.
And I'm like, well, you like.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Spin the cup back around.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah. But I'm just mindful because at the end of
the day, you know, you know, there's a there's in
a situation, and there's a response, and I own the response.
And I'm adult enough now to know that I can
work my through it. And I'll just say this and
I want to go. A lot of this, I think
immediately comes from comes from my dad. Now, my dad
was not formally educated. He had he was a ninth
grade dropout in mullin, South Carolina, Okay, but he had

(11:31):
some of that deep Southern wisdom that I don't know
he got on a tobacco field. Now, he was the
most erratic person at times, but the most the most positive.
And I remember, and I just share this. I mean,
I'd come home and I'd be struggling and upside down,
and I remember, like it was yesterday he said to me,
he said, son, there is no such thing as bad weather,

(11:53):
only inadequate clothing, Okay, And I just stuck with me,
and I remember it's like you said, boy, don't try
to control the storm. You control how you show up, right,
And so the backstory with me is always the storm
will be the storm.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
It's what you're wearing.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yes, I can just I gotta show up differently whether
it storm will be the storm, they'll be personal, professional, whatever.
And so my backstory is always, like I always have
that kind of talking about storytelling in the back of
my head. I'm like, this is just a storm and
I'm built for this and I just got adapt flex,
do whatever, change my gear, grab an umbrella, whatever it

(12:35):
may be. And that's part of that mindset in terms
of the book and happiness, habits and.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
All of the above and being accountable. Yes, I love that.
I love that because how often do people show up
in shorts and a T shirt. It's snowing outside. Now,
it's snowing outside, it's raining, and then we get upset

(13:01):
when we're cold or when your hair gets wet. Yeah,
you know, it's like show up ready for the weather
that you encounter, and then that way, the weather's not
good or bad, it's just there it is.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
And I get people all the time, you know, people
you know, again in the Midwest or Chicago, complain about
the weather. I mean, how many years you live there?
I mean how many do you do? You know it
does know it's the season.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
It's the season, right.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yeah. It's just like in New York City you knew
that it gets human. It's like how many years you're
going to complain and it gets human in Brooklyn.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
So either way, that's the frustration. But to your point,
so in the back of that is my dad and
so all of that is kind of hardwired. In that book,
some simple things I could do to kind of reboot,
get my head in a better place to get through
the storm. Yeah, and I complain about it.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah. So you uh, I want to hear more about
you who you are and you shared through the release
of your book Contrasts. Yeah, very recently released a very
personal story about who Devin Hughes is and what you've encountered.

(14:09):
Tell us about that book, tell us about what you
learned while writing that book.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
Yeah. It was raw and it was real, and it
was hard because I had so much shame in my story,
shame in that Again, I talked to my father, my
father's African American, my mother's Caucasian. They met in the
segregated South in the nineteen sixties. My grandfather was in

(14:34):
the klu Klux Klan, so as you can imagine, he
wasn't too happy about that unholy union, as he liked
to call it. So my parents literally had to escape
in the pickup truck and drive to Washington, d C.
Which is where I was born. So if from an
early age, I mean I just felt different. Yeah, I

(14:57):
mean clearly, because you know, I look, you know, light skinned,
green eyes, with the good hairs. But I often heard
as a kid grew up in Panama African American communities.
I was in special ed unbknownst to me. I'm dyslexic.
So there was all these data points socioeconomic, racial, cultural,
I just felt different. And so that was the book

(15:18):
is to come out on the other side and to
talk about, you know, being born a mom who was eighteen,
who barely graduated high school, being embarrassed only have a
one car, like I had all the armor up all
the time, so the compartmentalize. So the book was really
for those who felt like the other, They didn't fit,
they didn't belong. Whatever that is when you just feel

(15:39):
like you couldn't find your people and he didn't know
who they were. And so that was a part of
the book of telling my story to come out on
the other side and some lessons learned.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Why did you write it?

Speaker 1 (15:51):
Well, serendipitously, I didn't really go out and purposely to
write it. I didn't never thought that I was going
to be a writer. I was given a talk at
a rotary club just randomly. Someone asked me to do it,
to talk, and I didn't really know what to say,
but the one thing I could talk about is my story.
And I was like, I don't know, no one wants
to hear this, you know, who cares that kind of thing?

(16:13):
And I was like, you know what, I'm just going
to let the guard down and just go there. And
I did, and unbeknownst to me, there was a publisher
in the back of the room and he's like, have
you ever thought about writing a book?

Speaker 2 (16:26):
Well?

Speaker 1 (16:26):
And I was like no, you know, you hear that
all the time, right, And then then he kept calling
and calling and calling, and so I was like, well,
maybe this is the universe pivoting moving, whatever it may be.
And that's how it started. And once I got in,
I was like it was cathartic.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
Pulling up old memories and stuff that I compartmentalized, like
I put in the trunk, put in the basement, buried it.
But as you know, it doesn't go away.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
Was waiting for you. It's waiting.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
So it was. It was a growth moment for me.
And that's that was the impetus for the book. And
once I got in, I was all in.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
You know, I read part of the book. I haven't
read the entire thing. What I loved about what I
did read was how vulnerably raw you were in telling
your story, no matter how you felt as you were
doing it. What we receive from the book those and

(17:28):
I encourage you to read this book and we'll put
the full name in the show notes. What I really
appreciated about your book, Devin, was it talked about things
that resonate so deeply with so many people, and it's
really around being the other or being different, right, and
so it speaks to what happens when two people of

(17:52):
two seemingly different races, just different tones of their skin
come together and how the folks around them, respond, react
and behave around that decision. It spoke to your experience
as a young person that came out of that union

(18:13):
and how that translated into what your life was going
to be like on a day to day basis. It
spoke to you navigating the world of being a child
who was born of a white mother and a black
father and what that looks like. And it also spoke

(18:34):
a lot to how you what your roadmap was to
kind of finding meaning an identity in your own life
through having had those experiences. We were talking before we
started filming about some of the experiences that people have,
like within the culture, about you know, light skinned or

(18:58):
what it feels like to different and how we treat
each other when we perceive difference. I myself am the
daughter of a Haitian father and a Puerto Rican mother,
and I grew up in Brooklyn, and I happened to
be what people consider light skinned did or light skinned,
and it created riff for me just by virtue of

(19:23):
being a human being, you know, going to school in Brooklyn.
I didn't know that I was different. I knew that
I was living my life. I knew there were some challenges.
I came out of a household of divorce and everything
that comes along with that. I grew up in an
upper middle class area and went to public school, and

(19:44):
my friends were from the neighborhood, you know, friends who
lived in you know, the brownstone down the street, and
friends who lived in the projects, and friends who lived
everywhere in between. And yet there was something about me
that created a problem for some people, which translated into

(20:06):
me learning at an early age where I needed to
have armor and where I didn't, and how I needed
to show up in the world, in my world at
the time, if I was going to be left alone
in that Yeah, you know, and I know you so.

(20:29):
Reading the book, the the the the parts of it
that I read, and I'm going to finish it, I
really I felt that I felt those experiences. I felt
I know what that what that feels like for me.
I can't say that I know what it felt like
for you, but I certainly it resonated with the experience

(20:49):
that I've both had myself and also what I've seen
about the ways that we interact with each other in
the world.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
Yeah. No, I mean, you know, I think it's a
collective experience whatever we all sometimes, whatever the norm is,
And I mean I was just acutely aware that that
I was different and I wasn't white enough, certain cases
black enough, trying to figure out no extended family, you know,
with parents had addiction issues, neither college graduate, just just

(21:23):
trying to figure out domestic violence. I mean, I had
a just a slew of things and I'm compartmentalizing this
and I'm trying to just be a kid. And it
wasn't like there wasn't enjoy in the house. Said the
best they could, but there was just a lot of heaviness. So,

(21:49):
you know, to the book, I just I didn't want
to sensationalize it or or look back like I had
it all figured. I didn't figure it out. I just
know that day to day I had need to get
through it and survive. And so that's what I wanted
to write about. And I didn't want to discount some
of the experiences. I wanted to take you to a
place where, for example, you come home. I was a

(22:09):
lot you know, you come home, and I don't know
what it's like for a lot of kids, but I was.
I was scared to bring kids home. Why because my
mother might be doing something inappropriate on the coffee table,
which was illegal. And so I would literally open the door,
and I would kind of give a look to the
lefters that a riot, make sure everything was good, and

(22:30):
then run in my room real quick. Is that normal
behavior for a kid to have to be acutely aware
of that stuff? But those are the kind of things
that I was just because I felt judged and I
didn't I wanted to be normal. But so I don't know.
Those are things that I write about in the book,
little anecdotes like that of trying to figure out who
I was.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, what did you learn about yourself through recalling? Yeah,
those parts of your story?

Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, it's interesting because now in the you know, in
the Forget, we use words like trauma, trauma in formed, trauma.
We didn't language I had. If you look at the
totality of my life and experiences, one like, wow, there's
a lot of trauma.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
To me, it was what I was. Yeah, right, it
just was. And so even in the moments of that,
there were still pockets of really really good stuff. And
so what I learned is my parents were flawed. They
were doing the best they could, and they just you know,
highs and lows, and and so I learned how to survive.
I learned how to adapt. I learned how to flex

(23:35):
and maybe it's my own, you know, the rationalization myself.
It just it kind of bleeds into the work I
do right now, so I know what it's like and
so I can connect lived experiences. So in terms of
the book writing, it was some hard moments for me.
I mean, you know, of course, you know, my dad

(23:57):
put his hands on my mom a lot when he drank,
and to hear that, to see that, to intervene in
on that, I mean, I remember there was times, you know,
my mom tend to be she get excited and yell
and raise her voice. He'd come home drunk, they'd argue,
they go back and forth, he hit. I'd have to
get in the middle. I remember times literally we'd sit

(24:19):
on the floor after and just cry as a family,
just because it felt I mean, that's not that. I
mean that was heavy and so writing about that's, you know,
feeling that I was like, I haven't felt that for
forty years. Yeah, yeah, but it was what it was.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Was there completion energy in writing this book?

Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah? I think so. I think I felt, like you know,
it was I think I came out a better human being.
On the other end of it, I didn't try to
rationalize it. I didn't try to understand. I just you know,
you know, it just put a little closure. My mom's
all longer here, but a little put a little closure,
maybe a period on that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
So today you have children I do, and you have
a family your own. Yeah, And how has your experience
shaped your family system today?

Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yeah? So that's so interesting, right, because I try to
be present where we are the World's very different than
when I grew up, good or bad, it just is.
And so they also, my kids have grown up very
different than I have in terms of socioeconomically. We didn't
own a house when I grew up with in an apartment.

(25:33):
I just so it's a balance of trying to afford
them certain things but also not making it too easy. Yeah,
that's one thing. The other thing is I afford girls.
I'm a girl dad. So there's a whole litany of
things I've had to learn about raising young ladies that

(25:55):
I wasn't just aware of. I mean, I knew it,
but I didn't know. But the kind of societal pressure
that you find value as a girl society if you're skinny,
if you're pretty, And I didn't realize how systemic that was.
And so even at an early age, I could see
the self doubt and the self loathing in my girls
because they weren't pretty enough or skinny enough. So I'm enough,

(26:19):
just not enough enough.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
Of which is what the world will lead us to
believe if we're not careful, that we're not enough.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah, you know, so I think that was the part
of being a parent which I had to kind of
grow and evolve and flex and the balance of letting
them go through it versus jumping in and trying to
fix it. Yeah, and I think try that was a
nice balance for me, trying to figulut when I go in,
when I intervene, when I don't. Sometimes you have to
go through the storm. I can't grab the umbrella lived

(26:48):
experiences and so yeah, I mean, but it's the best thing.
I mean, it's been a huge blessing. The girls have
been amazing. It's grown me as a human being, and
there's some things I wasn't prepared for and some things
that have been amazing. So all of the oh.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah, yeah, what did you have to unlearn in order
to parent in the way that you do today?

Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, Well, you know, I think at least my personal opinion,
like we're byproducts of our environment for somewhat. And so
all I know is my parents, my parents and my
parents are pretty laisse there. Now, I don't know why
what I mean, I just ran around wherever I wanted
to go. It's still whatever I wanted to do. Well,

(27:32):
that's not necessarily the world we live in anymore. So,
things like boundaries and being having like I would never
share with my parents and things I was doing. Everything
was you know, they were usingage like this is adult
time and you know.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, us against them. It's like the adults and the child.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yes, And I'm like that is that? Is that right?
Is that wrong? Do I replicate that? Is there a balance?
I mean, those are all the kinds of things. How
much do I need to know which? I think those
are the things we all struggle with. And I was
trying to figure out. I don't know good or bad.
It's just the challenges of parenting. And you know the
reality is that today.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, in my household, my father, I grew up in
my father's house and he was very he could be
very rigid. And where you talked about laissez fair, my
father there it was the opposite, right, it was like
these rules, and there was not a lot of social
time for us, so we'd have to like hang out

(28:30):
and do it after school, but get it in time
to let him know we're home and all of that.
And there was also a lot of anger because of
the level of stress that he was under. And when
I look back now, I think it was that he
was burnt out and tired and all of that. And
he was also a single parent, and he was a

(28:53):
single father to three very creative, rambunctious kids while he
was navigating a new country and that world of a
single father. And so what that meant for me was
going into my childhood. I I'm sorry, going into my parenting,

(29:14):
I started it with what I already had, which is
what a lot of us do, right. We start off
with what you have in your toolkit. And then I
recognized really early that this isn't working for this, like
this just is something's not right. I'm not happy. This
isn't right, and there couldn't be for me. When I

(29:35):
considered both my life and also considered who I actually am,
I'm not my father, very close to My father passed
away thirteen twelve years ago. This past Monday, but loved
my father very much, had a tremendous amount of respect
for him. And I was also a very different person,
and so to take someone else's playbook and attempt to

(29:58):
apply it to my own family system was bound to
create problems. And a lot of what happened in my
household was it was either anger or happy. There was
not a lot of joy, but it was either anger
or happy, and so if there was anything less than happy, sad, hurt, confusion, anxiety,

(30:22):
it went into the angry bucket, right And so I
recognized when my son Joseph, who I had three weeks
after my eighteenth birthday, I recognized a few years later
that there was something I needed to do differently, but
I didn't know what it was. I knew something didn't
feel right, and the rules that I was attempting to

(30:46):
put on him didn't feel right, but I wasn't sure
of how to undo it or you know, and I
did for sure over time, I started to recognize that
if I don't stop, hit the pause button, take a
look at what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, and

(31:09):
discern what's really what I believe in my heart from
what was programmed or what was just habit. I was
literally going to maintain the very same environment that I
grew up through. And it's not that it was horrible,

(31:29):
like there were aspects of it that were amazing. But
I believe that we're creators on this planet, like we
get to do things differently. That is part of the job,
It's part of the assignment. And so I started doing
the work on myself to find a way to move
from this pendulum swing of happy or a mad to like,

(31:53):
what is joy feel like for me?

Speaker 1 (31:55):
Like?

Speaker 2 (31:56):
What feels good to me? What kind of parent do
I really want to be? What kind of a relationship
do I want to have with my children? Do I
want my children to trust me to tell me about
all the bullshit happening in the world and in school
and with people, or do I want them to shield
that stuff from me because they're separate and their children.

(32:18):
And I'm an adult, you know. And what I read
the little bit that I know about you and just
a couple of times that we've had conversation, and what
I read, there's a delta between there that tells that
I believe is you having found a way to do
it differently for your today life versus taking that experience,

(32:45):
whatever it was, good bed, whatever it was, and moving
that through to your children, to the next generation. And
I commend you for that well.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
Things I mean, and that's my cause. I mean, that's
my purpose right now. I've been blessed, I've had a
great life. Continue to create work. But if I'm not
making an impact or making it better what I'm doing, Yeah,
And so when people ask you why or why you
do what you do, I don't need any more trophies
or plagues or cars. I don't need any of that.
I just want to leave it better than when I

(33:16):
got it. And I love that what you said, because yeah,
I'm always working on me. I think in order to
have to create a better place, you got to become
a better version of yourself. And so I'm very open
to feedback. I'll give you an example. I mean, I'm
constantly asking for feedback. We use things that feedback is
a gift, and then we hear and we're.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
Like, still talk to me about it.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
And so I you know, like with my kids and stuff,
sometimes I'll use this called you know, because there's different
chapters of children, which I realize when they're super little,
that's what they need middle school, high school. And so
I'm at a chapter now where they're in their twenties.
I've never been here before. I don't have a predicate,
I don't have a cliff notes, I don't have anything.
So it's lived experience. I'm like, right, writ in the manual,

(34:01):
and I have to your point. I've got what I
the way my parents ran it, and so I'm like,
so the only way I can do it is be
the best version. But i also ask for a lot
of feedback. So I'll ask my kids, you know, start, stop, continue,
what are some things you need me to do more of?

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (34:17):
Like, and I asked, literally, and I get feedback. Well, Dad,
You know, sometimes when I give me an example, like
they're dating.

Speaker 3 (34:26):
What, every man that I talked to who mentions the
fact that his daughter is dating, may date or is
thinking about it, has the same look, the same expression.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
What just because it's just because my experience of most guys,
it's a generalization, you know what I mean, It's just
they don't have this stuff together bright my so and
so I'm like, so if a guy comes to the house,
my wife's I give me a pep talk, like we're
in the locker room, and it's like Phil Jackson, don't
act up, don't act up, be friendly, shake his hand.

(35:00):
He's a hunger sit at the island with us, Like
she's telling me, like literally the like the whole the prescriptive,
you know what I mean. Like we're like, I'm like, okay,
because I'd be like the silent d make the team.
How much would I give this young man? You know
what I mean? And so I'm like, okay, So these
are the things. So fortunately I have a support system
yeah that like knows my gaps and I'm okay in

(35:24):
that space. Yeah, because they know that I'm like, okay,
don't like it. She was like, don't tap out. I
need you to lean in on this. Yeah, I know
it's hard. I notice that you need. I'm like, you
know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
But it seems like you've allowed your children to be
part of your team. Yes, yes, And I think that
makes all the difference. It does, Yeah, all the difference.
I was talking. I was watching Gean carlois Posito. I
was at the Kids for Piece event a year ago,
not this last one, the one before, and he was

(35:59):
the person and who got honored, and he was talking
about similar conversation about his children who were at the
time or I guess are still adults, and he talked
very similarly about his willingness to allow his children to
give them feedback and to let him know how he's doing,

(36:20):
and how What resonated for me in that is that
when we allow these little human beings who have been
watching us every day of their just like we're watching them,
they're watching us too, write who better than to tell
you what they see? Because they love us, Yes, they

(36:41):
love us. So it's not feedback to trip us up
or to take anything away from us, or to insult us.
It's feedback because they want to be better and they
want us to be better, or they recognize that sometimes
there are blind spots. And so as a parent, I
believe that we truly truly help ourselves. We help our children,

(37:05):
and we help their children when they come. I have grandchildren.
We help them all to be better when we create
a family system that allows us to hold each other accountable.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
Yeah, because I think accountability is that to you, it's
for you?

Speaker 2 (37:20):
Oh totally, yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, And I think framing it like that if it's
really if it's for me, like for example, the medicine
doesn't always taste good, but that don't mean it ain't
good for you exactly. And sometimes I need somebody, you know,
And so I'm open to that. Now Again, I may
make a face and you know, cringe, but I know
at the end of the day, it's coming from a
good place and they see something that I don't see

(37:44):
in myself, and so I try to flex and lean
into that space and say, okay, and maybe it's situational
even yeah, with this boyfriend thing, it's not really my.
It's not my. It's just uncomfortable for me for a
variety of reasons because I'm trying to figure out what
his intentions are, the motives is all that stuff. Yeah,

(38:04):
that's just stuff that I've narratives and stories I have.
But she's with him. We're in the space whatever space
I need to act appropriately because not necessarily for him,
for her, for her.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
Because here's the thing, and I'm telling you this, and
I recognize that you're open and you're flexible, and you're
allowing this very uncomfortable season to happen. Where your daughters are,
you know, you know, they're dating, they're they're they're exploring
the world and exploring themselves. What the gift that you

(38:37):
give to your daughter is that your daughter a knows
that somebody's behind her, that there's a man who's behind her,
not with judgment, not with criticism, not louder than her
voice and thought and reasoning in the situation.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
And also you're creating a situation where your daughter doesn't
have to use use the energy that she could be
using for her personal discernment on trying to manage you down. Yeah,
so you build trust. So then you put the daughter
in the position to be able to come to say,

(39:16):
let me tell you what happened, what do you think
about this, so that you two can really have the conversation.
And I'm saying this to you as a daughter who
did not have that from my father, because my father
was very much authoritarian. He really leaned into those feelings
that you're describing. He felt them as an adult. I'm like,

(39:37):
I know what he felt. I get it. But in
doing that, he allowed that to put up the wall.
But here's the problem. When you do that as a parent,
you put up a wall and it takes you away
from the situation, and it has the opposite effect because
now your child is off, trying to discover their world

(39:59):
on their own, without your guidance, without your protection, without
your help, without your support, without your wisdom.

Speaker 1 (40:05):
Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, that's new and exciting right now.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
Dealing with his face does not look excited.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, I know. Yeah, No, I mean again, it's part
of the growth process, is being a human and evolving,
and growth is not always easy. It's not always again
the things I'm acutely aware of it. Yeah, and I'm
not discounting the experience. I'm moving through it. Yeah, and
I'm okay with it. It just is challenging sometimes.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
And the aggregate though things. I mean, we got great
kids making good choices, good character, good human beings. So
I'm proud of that. Ye and so yeah, so all
of that, the book is a byproduct to that. If
they can inspire other people for whatever reason, whether the
currents or circumstances or kids, grandkids, partner, spouse, whoever feels

(40:54):
like the other, that's what the books really for, to
inspire those folks.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
Has your family read them? Have they read the book?

Speaker 1 (41:00):
Uh? Yes, all my kids, my friends and family. I
had most of the people in my inner circle, people
that knew me, were like didn't had no idea that
I had so much dysfunction going on at home. They're like, wow,
I could I would have never known that you were
going with all that you didn't seem to And I'm like, well,
I mean, what was I going to do? I mean,
you know, put on my highlight reel. I mean we
didn't talk about stuff, and I don't I want to

(41:21):
say my era, but at least growing up, we didn't
talk about those feelings. We use language like man up, put.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
You all yourself up, by you by your bootstraps, put.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
Your big boy pend. I mean that was the language
I grew up with. So to tap into that emotional
capital and be like no, it was always surface.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
You just keep it going.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
And again, depending on where you grew up your environment.
I grew up in the inner city, so there was
certain social norms. We didn't show weakness off kindness. You
had to show up a certain way. If you didn't,
then people may take advantage of you or try to
do whatever.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
So the get environment the home, so you just learned a.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yeah, it's protection everywhere, yes, yeah, no place to breathe
no is the result. There's no place to breathe, So
you try to live without breathing.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
Yeah, and that sucks, Yeah, it does. And so you know,
the book was a byproduct. It was just you know,
in some ways, you know, breathing, Yeah, just letting it go. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
So you also write children's books?

Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah yeah, why yeah, so I again my personal anecdote
is if you can well, first of all, growing up,
I didn't. I didn't have children's literature people look like
me or people in my community. Yeah, so that was
a problem. I realized it. So everyone just wasn't. I

(42:50):
didn't see me and the children's literature. I didn't see
it on the shows. I didn't see it anywhere. And
so I wanted to create a you know, books and
litera children's literature people. For example, my lead characters a
lot of women, and the women of color, and has
nothing to do with their looks or their beauty or
their their waist size. It's because their cognitive rock stars.

(43:13):
I wanted to blow up stereotypes and tropes and all
the above so people, young kids somewhere could read this
literature and see themselves in and go, oh yeah, I
can be right, because it's hard to be which you
cannot see right, right, And if you grew up in
certain environments and all you see yourself around is people.
And so that was the That was the backstory, and

(43:34):
then I got creative, and then I also wanted to
write stuff that again, well, human beings aren't born with beliefs, right,
They're based become based on environments. We're born being yes,
we're being right. And then you're like Clay and then
been on the conversations. You have what you listen to,
which you watch, where you spend your time. So I thought,

(43:56):
in my own small way, I could I create literature.
People can only see themselves, but I could start to
create some positive belief, self esteem, self worth. And that
was the genesis for the children's literials. All my stuff
has a little bit of belief something in it where
people go, wow, I can be kind, I can be capable,
I am loved, I am worthy. Little snippets, little monts

(44:20):
that people need to hear.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
I think sometimes when we've filled our lives with that,
we forget that there are people who don't get to
hear that. Yeah, the more we can do too. And
I commend you for putting that messaging in there, you know,
because some young person, probably many will read that book

(44:43):
and remember that you said that to them, that they
read that in a book that was written for them.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
And I'm also not toning death to the realities of
the world right now. I mean, if you look at
the world and the data mental health among our children
is declining rapidly, cutting, self loathing, bullying, I mean you
just to look at all the modiut anxiety. Yes, I mean,
so again, the kids are hurting for variety of reasons. COVID,

(45:22):
post covid, I get it. I mean, breakdown families, social communities,
all of the above. So, in my small way, you know,
trying to figure out a way that I can try
to bring people together, provide some literature or kind of
it to facilitate some conversations, whether it's a coloring book
or any other book, to start to create a little
bit of a positive impact.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
Which I think it's important. Have you had any memori
reactions from people about the book, the children's books?

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (45:49):
Have you spoken any children who overad.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
That I need to do more? Of What I do though,
is I get people send me on social media like
go on x or something. They'll send me or post
like tag me the other kid reading it, or filling
in the color and book and say hey, love the book,
and then a kid will be on the count, either
reading it or coloring it. I'm like, oh, that's amazing. Yeah,

(46:13):
you know what I mean. And I don't know who
these people are. They're just like, hey, thank you so much,
or I really needed this, or Sally struggling in school.
She's not the cool kid, the skinny kid or whatever kid.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
Yeah. Yeah, there's a piece of you, the piece of
what you've learned in that person's experience.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
Yeah, and so I get some of that, I would, yeah,
which is I mean, it's even at this stage of
my life, I don't need a lot, but just that
makes me like, wow, okay, because there's an artist. Any
artists will know this. It's really raw and vulnerable to
put something out because with that oftentimes there's judgment.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
Judgment.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
Yeah right, And but if you're in the space enough,
you know that's part of the Like if you want
to be a gladiator, then you got to be on
the and.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
That's just part of it.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
Doesn't make it any easier, but you're there, right, And
so you put yourself out there until you don't really
know you're trying to figure out and at least me
when I write books, I try to get outside my
bubble because you're in a circle. Usually doesn't they you know, they.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
Ca the you're great, You're fantastic.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
Yes, I'm like, oh, you know, I'm amazing. But you know,
outside the peripheral, I'm like, okay, well outside the you know,
the crew, what do they think?

Speaker 2 (47:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (47:24):
And so you know, I'm trying to expand my data
sit there. But again, I'm not getting caught up good
or bad. I'm just doing the work. And if I
do the work it consistently, stay true to me and
put the work out there, it'll be what it'll be.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah. An addition, so, in addition to being an author
for speaking to both children and adults, you are also
a storyteller and you do speaking engagements. Yeah, and you
speak to organizations about their culture and what's happening within

(47:57):
the organizations. Can you talk a little bit about that.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah. So I had a traditional job, like a lot
of people, you graduated from undergrad and you get a job.
You work at a corporation. You sit in a cube
and you just do and you know, occasionally you're just
they're just there. And you go to a couple of meetings,
you uned your head up and down. Once a year
they tell you good, are bad, You get three percent raise,
and you do that over and over. So I did
that for a while. Then I had, you know, it
was mildly successful. And then I got to a certain

(48:21):
inflection point and I was like, is this it? Like,
I'm just going to do this over and over. That's
going to be the totality of my life. Just and
I just like, you know what, I don't want to
I just I don't want to live with any regret.
And so I had always been comfortable in front of
rooms and that was anecdotal feedback. And then I'd also

(48:41):
been in great cultures at work, not so good cultures,
and I'm like, well, there has to be If it
could be really good, why isn't more of it? And
I said, so, what if I was to create a
little boutique consultancy in my business life that I could
help organizations profit nonprofit create a workplace where everyone felt
like they could belong, could thrive, and use science, use

(49:02):
some research based tools to create a little bit of environment.
And so that's what I built my business around. I
do some motivational stuff and do all that. But that's
the kind of the line and share the work that
I do. Create a workplace where human beings feel like
they belong because I say this. I say that to
say this, Every human being that I find at work,
no matter what it is, once the same three things.

(49:24):
They want to be seen, heard, and valued, seen, heard
and valued.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
At work and at home?

Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yes, humans, yes, yeah. And I'm like, so those are
the sandboxes I'm going to play and seeing heard and
value I'm going to operationalize. So I'm going to just
be platitudes on the wall or on the website. We're
going to live them. And so I work with organizations
and look at showing them how to operationalize those and behaviors.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
You bring gratitude into those conversations? Absolutely, How does that?
How does that? How does that get received?

Speaker 1 (49:55):
Mixed? At first? Sometimes that's a little you know what
I mean, Like really, what is gratitude? Like why? You
know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (50:04):
Like, why is that important to us? We want?

Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yeah, we want you know, productivity and outcomes and goals
and KPIs and all that business stuff. You know what
I mean. We got to intellectualize everything. I just say
a simple question like this doesn't matter who it is.
Do you think your team performs better when they feel better? Well? Yeah?
Are they at their best when they feel their best? Yeah?

(50:27):
All right, So if I can get them in a
better place, or you can get them in a better
place more days, do you think they're going to provide
better customer service, better customer experience, better outcomes? Les Drama Lestra,
he's a most people, of course. Okay, well that's then
stay with me here. I'm gonna show you how we
can get them in a better place more days. Not

(50:49):
just woo woo, not perks, parties and pizza and not
more T shirts that's fine, but just human being stuff.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
And again, so it's not in then, it's not adjacent
to outcomes. It drives the outcomes that we want. And
when I can have those conversations, the conversation changes, and
then I get people to lean in a little bit
more and tap into that. Okay, I'm going to hear.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
That, yeah, which I think is important. I worked in
corporate for a long time. I worked for Fortune five
hundred and one hundred companies, and there was a lot
of conversation around smart goals and KPIs and scorecards and
all this other stuff, and people were falling apart while
they were attempting to reach the levels of productivity that

(51:32):
they were being asked to provide and invest into the organization.
And I believe that we can type a differently and
that there's a way, to your point, create environments where
people don't resent the very organization that's giving them the
paycheck because they feel seen in some way, are valued

(51:56):
just because their humanity is a knowledged you know. So
I commend you also for doing that great work, because
that's you can say woo wooh. But the truth of
the matter is is that no matter how much we
try to make each other and ourselves into robots, it's impossible.
It's never going to happen, never going to happen, because

(52:20):
that's just not who we are. No more than you
can get a car, I don't know, to a downward
facing dog, it's not going to happen. Yeah, you have
to let you have to bring into the company culture
room and space for human beings to be humans, just
like in our families.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
It's interesting you say that because again, when I was
looking at this, I was like, we spend more time.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
At work, that's right, we do at home, that's right.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
And so again I talked about eighty summers. Most people
retire by sixty five, So forty years plus of your
existence is at a place with these human beings. So
why would I expect less? Then? Why would I lower
the bar? Why would I create an environment where I
had to be less human and discount things like empathy

(53:10):
and compassion and hope and serenity and awe on love.
So I'm like, we need to redo work. So I
got really underneath it. Did you know there's only one
culture on planet Earth that has a word that says
there's joy at work a word. There's only one culture
that I love work, that there's joy at work. So

(53:31):
I was looking for the word. I'm like, okay, there's
not a I can only find one culture on the
entire planet of eight billion people. The only culture that
word has a word or the Nordic countries Denmark, and yeah,
it's called Abbo's good. It means I love work, there's
joy at work.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
You know. Finland is also the they do the annual
Oh my goodness, what is the survey?

Speaker 1 (53:59):
Yeah, the happiest country.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
They're the happiest country. Yeah, we're like a two hundred
and seventy five thousand on that list exactly.

Speaker 1 (54:07):
That's one of my hat blow up.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
Yeah, so there's something to it, yes.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
And so I was like, we don't even think it's
physically possible. We don't even have a word.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
In our lexus, not at all, right, not at all.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
And so I'm like, okay, so we don't even think
joy is possible to work because we don't even have
a word for it. Now the Japanese have it worse.
They have a word. Again. I was in another research
here that says I die at work. No, you wouldn't
have a word for something.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
Unless it was repeated, right, wow.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
Yes, So we got these polar opposites, yes, Finland and
the Japanese. Yes, not one or the other.

Speaker 2 (54:46):
And I'm like, well, let's try to fall somewhere on
the right side of that.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
Yes, And so that's part of the genesis for me,
is like, can we create environments where people feelly truly?
I mean, can feel like there's and hurt and value?

Speaker 2 (55:00):
Do you believe that we can?

Speaker 1 (55:01):
I do, And I do think people are open to
the conversation, and I think things are changing and continuing
to change. But we're still fall back to some old
paradigms and some systems and some bad leadership behaviors and
all the other stuff. But the good thing is I
find a lot of folks right now, younger generations, they
don't settle. They're not going to go sit. I'm going
to do that for forty five years and get a

(55:22):
time X and HAM from some guy on the sixth floor.
I don't remember their name in the elevator.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
Exactly exactly.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
They're like, you know what, I'm the most I'm educated,
I got wi fi, I got ai. If you're not
filling my cup.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
I don't want to be here next Yeah, And if
you're trying to make me where whatever, I'm not going
to be here. I want to be happy. And I
think that is I think that's that should be the bar, yeah,
for all of us, because we do our best work
when we're feeling good yes, with cre people, with good people,

(55:57):
when we enjoy the environments that we're in. And I'm
really looking forward to and I believe that that's possible. Also,
I'm looking forward to more and more organizations understanding that
because the thing is that folks are coming into work
with all the things that are happening in the world
on their heart and on their mind, and the time

(56:22):
for or the world where you can segregate and compartmentalize
things is becoming less and less possible because we carry
the world around with us in our pocket and our
purse and our in our hand. And people are coming
into work with the fact that we're number two hundred

(56:45):
whatever it is on the happiness I don't know where
it is. I forgot, you know, on the happiness the
gallop pole for happiness. Children who are struggling more and
more and more with anxiety, with cutting, with all kinds
of behaviors that show us that something needs to change.

(57:05):
Adults are tuning out, they're disconnected, they're in their phones,
they're doing all the things to just try to feel
a little bit better or to try to numb.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
Work is the reflection of the human beings that make
up that collective. And so if there was ever a
place to start to make those changes and improve the
quality of the ways that people are interacting, it's at work. Yeah,
it's at work, and it's in your it's at home,

(57:41):
and it's at work. And I think we have to
start really understanding that We have to start sitting down
and having those conversations with people who are interacting with
each other every day, no matter what's happening in the world,
with the news and all these other things that are happening,

(58:01):
we have to recognize that we're humans and we're all
here together.

Speaker 1 (58:04):
Yeah, I'm gonna give you an example. I was in
Europe in the fall doing some work. Did you know
the UK now has a Minister of Loneliness? No, No,
the cabinet position. Think about that for a second. A
Minister of lonely You would not have a cabinet position
in government unless there was a pervasive problem. And so
I'm like, wow, is this really this big of a deal.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
I know it's the Minister of only I'm gonna look
that up.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
But what is the minister of trying to figure out
why the loss of community? Right? We don't talk to
each other? Right? And again I looked at again. I
was just following the data, like church attendance is down,
volunteering is down, family dinners are down, family vacations are down.
And I started looking at what was the common denominator.
We don't gather, we don't talk, we self segregate, we text,

(58:48):
we tweet, we snapchat, we all do all of the above,
but we don't have serendipitous conversations like that. Yeah, we
self segregate. So I saw that, and then I'm like, okay,
this is this is this is weird, Minister of loneliness,
and so what's happening in the UK. Now it's happening.
They have what they call chat benches.

Speaker 2 (59:07):
Oh yes, I've heard about those.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
The real I'm literally in parks and then literally a
sign and says please sit here if you would like
to talk to me. And I'm like, in twenty twenty
four and I saw this is this where we are?

Speaker 2 (59:20):
That's where we are.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
I mean, I need a bench in a park in
Hollywood or LA. That's where we are to put the
phone down and do this.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
That's where we are. Yeah, that is where we are.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
Yeah. And so I think part of that because Michelle
Obauma says it's great. She says it's hard to hate
up close.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
That's right. The things that I would like around now,
I don't like your your shirts cream and you know,
all this nonsense that people spew into the comments goes away.
Yes when you look at each other.

Speaker 1 (59:54):
Yes, And so I find again, when we have serendipitous conversations.
What I find is and when I do, when I
speak and I do workshops, we have a lot more
common than we think. Absolutely, And when you create space
to find those commonalities, you're like, oh my god, I
didn't know you grew up in Brooklyn, or you like
Mary J. Blige, or you like Typhood or you a
Rams fan. I would argue, the brain is always looking

(01:00:16):
to connect, and we create space to connect, you will
watch the relationship start to change, because if I can
see myself in your story, then you and I must
be a lot more alike than we think. That's right,
But I think we live in a world right now
where we tend to focus on all the difference and everything.
Again my personal opinion, if you, if you're not careful,

(01:00:37):
everything is framed as red states and blues states.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
Like that's the only yes thing, that's the only distinction
that we are.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Yeah, and so it's us and it's them, and so
there it is, and there's a narrative and I and
I hang out, and that is part of your work,
my work trying to bring.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
To see and understand that it's bigger than that. We're humans. Yes,
and let's apply some human behavior and human knowledge and
wisdom to the ways that we're interacting with each other.
Let's since we already know we're fighting about that clearly, right,
we already know that that's a thing. What if we
move that away and sit down and have conversations without

(01:01:24):
allowing politics into the conversation, Like, how many things can
we find in common when we take these these macro
categories out of it?

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
And you know, it's interesting because when we talk about
looking back when I was a child, and again I'd
love to hear your experience, there was two things we
would you would never you were told not to talk
about politics and religion and religion, and I wonder if
we had learned to have civil discourse around those would
be better.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
That's right, because now the can of worms is open
and we don't know how to have this. We have
no practice at it. There's no practice. We haven't had
the opportunity to sit down and work that through. And
I think that's one of the challenges that this country
has to face because quite frankly, there are other countries

(01:02:15):
that are that have evolved to being able to have
conversation around differences. Yeah, conflict or resolution is not part
of our every day. It's starting to become, I think,
to some extent, but we need more of it, and
we need more, I believe, of an understanding of what's

(01:02:37):
happening in our own heads as we're having conversations. Before
we attempt to sit down and check each other and
get each other right, I need to understand what's happening
with me, and that's the agenda lest time.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
That's the being. You can't get there without the walks
with the dog, the hanging out, the doing nothing, that
taking a nap in the middle of the day.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
No, no, I get it. And I checked myself because
my beliefs are my beliefs, and I find right now,
when your beliefs become your identity, then the learning stops.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
That's right, that's right, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
So now I got to lean into my identity. So
if you counter my beliefs, now you're attacking my identity.
Now I'm not open to hearing anything now, right because
it's personal. Right, And so those are those are the
things that I'm trying to again, as we were, all
of us play our small part is to you can
believe what you believe.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
That's okay. Yeah, and we can still find things that
we agree on.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
Yeah, and we can be disagreeing. It doesn't mean I
have to assassinate your character. You just had different experiences. Yeah, yeah,
and I appreciate your experience in my experience. But can
we agree that you know, we can disagree, but that's okay.
You don't have to be an enemy because you have
because you know you believe differently than I.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
I think the problem and then I'll move on, is
that we are living as if we're on a baseball field.
I don't really follow baseball, but I was at a
baseball game a couple of years ago, and what I
noticed was that when the other team did something had

(01:04:21):
like a great hit or ran the bases or whatever,
I was cheering for everyone right. I was like yay,
and folks were like, what are you doing? You don't
cheer for them. You don't cheer for them. We boo
them no matter what they do. And when I walked
away from that baseball game, understanding was the culture that

(01:04:45):
we live in that is validated and enforced through our
perspective on sports. The way that the way that we
look at sports or at least baseball, or at least
that one game of baseball. I don't know. That may
be over generalization, but what I notice is that we

(01:05:08):
are behaving in that same way in the ways that
we interact with each other. Oh you're amazing. Oh no,
you suck because you you have a purple shirt on.
You suck, even if you are absolutely amazing, even if
you've done the most wonderful thing at all. And we
have to stop doing that. We have to just we
have to stop doing that. It's not helping us.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
No, and it's not. And if we had a dashboard,
it's blinking red.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
It is so red, right, I mean and not read politic,
not political party. Read it's bringing red. Stop doing it, yeah,
stop so.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
And we talked about employee engagement. It's mental health. Yes,
every modality, every is just on the struggle of us. Yeah,
for sure. To your point, I don't think it's if
there was ever a time to do something different, I
clearly be Now.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
Yeah, what's a word that you would hope your love
one would use to describe you?

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
One word? Huh?

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
Or two?

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
A work in progress?

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
Yeah, because my again not to keep talking about my dad,
but one of those things that again, I just fall
back to my dad a lot. He's one of the
things you told me. Progress not perfection. Movement, Yeah, movement.
You gotta keep moving, you gotta stay don't worry about
perfect just do the work. So I say, a work
in progress.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
You talked about your practice of gratitude for the folks
who are listening to show, to demonstrate how easy and
quick it is, give me a few seconds of something
you're grateful for today.

Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
Yeah. So tomorrow we're going on a family vacation. Whatay, Okay,
So again we talked about moments. I have four daughters
and my wife and I are going to the East
coast actually Cape Cod. Okay, all right, because we had
history there and so we're going to do that beach thing.

(01:07:07):
So I broke up today and I have a journal,
and I wrote in my journal, I'm grateful for the
opportunity and the blessing to be able to spend time
with my family in Cape Cod next week and just
be present. And that means beach, cookout, walks, board games,
just being human. Wow, And that's what I'm super excited about.

(01:07:28):
And so again that's what I wrote about today. I
just have the grateful for the opportunity to do that.
And so again, if you look at that discipline and gratitude,
and I want to preach like, if you write at
least one thing you're grateful every day, you could find
one thing that you're grateful for every day.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
And if you can't, you're not looking the part. You're
just not looking.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
Yeah, and so you do that over a month, that's
thirty different things, and then it's sixty ninety et cetera. Yeah,
And so again that's the habit that I've developed and
continue to do.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
So yeah, I phone user and I and I'm sure
that androids have the same thing. But there's a reminders
app and every year I come up with my word
of the year, and then I don't always remember, but
I keep a list, a running list of moments of joy,

(01:08:20):
things I'm grateful for or just amazing things that happened,
and I just put them in the reminders. And then
at the end of the year, even when it may
feel like a shitty year, I take a look and
I'm like, but wait a minute, this is pretty badass.
I had a great year. This is all good, and

(01:08:40):
maybe I'm having a moment of not so wonderful. But
I think it's important for us to track and to
keep track of those things that bring us joy.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
So am I going to make the list?

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
I don't know. I don't know, Devid. I'm not sure
the fact that I made a smart ass comment to
you that will make I feel joy, that gave me joy.
One last question for you, sir, what can we do
to support you?

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
No, I appreciate the ability to be on the platform. UH.
If I can help anybody listening, please reach out via
social media. My website's Devinchues dot com, whether it's personally
and professionally. Anything I can do to help you be
a better version of you, I'd love to help support you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
I want to thank you for showing up in person
and for us being able to have this conversation in person.
And I just want to let you know how much
I appreciate the work that you're doing on this planet,
the contribution you're making to just a more joyful world.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
Thank you, you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
Know, through vulnerability, through your creativity, through you know, the open,
honest conversations you're having with leaders and with teams of people,
and through your book for children for families. Thank you
so much, for this, I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):
Well, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
You're welcome