August 26, 2025 • 35 mins
The mental health landscape for first responders reveals a stark coastal-interior divide. While California boasts specialized treatment facilities and innovative approaches, Midwest officers often travel cross-country seeking the same level of care. This reality frames our candid conversation with law enforcement professionals from both regions who share their personal healing journeys.
EMDR therapy emerges as a powerful tool in the first responder mental health toolkit. Our California-based guest describes her initial skepticism—"I'm going to hold these little pad things and they're going to vibrate?"—before experiencing profound breakthrough moments processing her field training officer's suicide and other career traumas. Through approximately 10-12 sessions, she found herself able to drive past triggering locations without the overwhelming emotional response that once controlled her.
Perhaps most valuable is the honest discussion about recovery's non-linear nature. "When you have a fall, it feels like you fall all the way to the bottom," one participant shares, before explaining how each setback in recovery actually comes from a higher starting point than the last. This perspective shift offers hope to those feeling discouraged by occasional backslides in their healing journey.
The conversation tackles the uncomfortable yet crucial topic of checking on fellow officers. Despite the professional culture of stoicism, our guests emphasize that simply showing up without perfect words makes all the difference. "People don't need you to show up with all the answers... they just need somebody who understands and is willing to listen."
For first responders contemplating reaching out for help, the message couldn't be clearer: Do it now. As one participant puts it, "If you already feel like you're at the bottom, therapy can either help you or keep you the same. So why not try?" Whether through peer support programs, professional therapy, or connecting with colleagues who understand, taking that first step opens the door to healing that ripples through every aspect of life.
If you or someone you know is in crisis and at risk of self-harm, please call or text 988, the suicide and crisis lifeline.
To contact us directly send an email to Dan@10-42project.org or call 515-350-6274
Visit our website! 10-42project.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome back to another episode of Shared Voices
, a first responder podcastbrought to you by the 1042
Project, and I love the beat tothat.
It's hard to get music for yourpodcast because music's so
protected.
like trying to buy music becauseyou can't just pull, like I
can't just play a radio songright now because it would, it
(00:30):
wouldn't allow me to do it, itwouldn't let me play it anywhere
right so you're kind of stuckwith like these generic audio
bits, unless you, unless you cancreate your own, which I am not
musically gifted, but maybelike and just sing for me and we
can do our own little jingle.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, welcome back guys, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Well, I wanted to bring you guys back.
We did the first episode andand I loved it.
But I looked at the time and Iwas like Holy crap, let's stop,
because, especially firstresponders, we have the
attention span of our frog.
Let's shut it down and shortenthe episode a little bit and do
a second one.
So thank you guys for comingback and doing part two, because
I really wanted to jump into,just kind of jump in right.
(01:17):
Where we left off is let's talkabout the difference between,
and see if there is a differencebetween, california and some of
the mental health treatmentsyou guys are getting out there
that is common or new to yourarea, compared to us.
Because you may not know this,jess, but in Iowa, the Midwest
is kind of the last one to getresources for stuff like this,
(01:39):
because it kind of goes aroundthe coast, it starts with
California and New York, youknow, kind of wraps around
Florida.
We don't get a lot, I mean likenone almost.
So we end up sending a lot ofpeople to california to get
treatment, to get health,because there's a lot of stuff
out there.
There's a lot of firstresponders, inpatient facilities
that have different retreatsthat are just for first
(02:00):
responders, which is veryimportant when you're seeking
treatment.
You know when you're, whenyou're when you're a cop or a
firefighter.
You don't want to go into thegeneral pop recovery.
You want to.
You want to recover with somebrothers and sisters that are
kind of like-minded.
So we have to send them out toCalifornia, jess.
So and I don't know if you knewthat or not, but there's not a
lot here you guys are kind of.
(02:20):
You guys are kind of it it.
So tell us what's going on outthere.
What are you using to help withyour mental health, your
husband and kind of some of thepeople in that area, because I
know jake's tried some thingsand I'm all for whatever works,
honestly.
So what's going on out in cali?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
so I know there are facilities here.
There are a lot of inpatientsprobably not close to where I'm
at.
I think a lot of them are downsouth.
I, I know San Diego.
I know their police departmentespecially has a huge wellness
program.
So I know that they probablyhave some more facilities,
probably down in SouthernCalifornia.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Newport Beach area is a really big area.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
And I've heard of that one.
Yes, I don't know the name ofit, but I remember Newport Beach
and I thought that's an amazingplace to probably.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Newport has a lot of them.
Actually, they got a.
So, I yeah, they got a coupleof them.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah, and where I'm at, I mean we do have therapists
here, we do have psychologiststhat are specially trained for
first responders.
We usually most agenciescontract with somebody off the
bat, so with through their peersupport program, they will
contract immediately withsomebody who specializes in that
(03:35):
field and then it depends onwhat that therapist wants to
offer for treatment.
So for my personal, what I'veused was EMDR.
Did I say the initials right?
Yes, my therapist was a firstresponder therapist.
Yes, and I use that and I thinkI was telling you guys earlier
(03:56):
it was.
I was really skeptical.
I was like, seriously, I'mgoing to hold these little pad
things and they're kind ofvibrate and I'm cause I couldn't
do the finger.
It reminded me too much ofbeing an FST.
So I was like, no, I can't dothat.
So you held the little right.
It was like follow my parents.
He's like you can't do that one.
I'm like no, no, no, no, no andthey would vibrate on one side
(04:22):
or the other and it was crazyhow it actually worked.
Again, very skeptical, becauseI'm a cop, I'm skeptical.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Right yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
That's not going to work.
I don't know what you'retalking about, and it's not.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Voodoo crap yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
It's not like a hypnotizing thing, it was a.
You just closed your eyes andhe made you think of a memory
and we started out small, um,something that wasn't super
traumatic, something that youstill kind of bugged you, um,
because he wanted to start outthat way.
And what was crazy was thefirst event that I picked.
Most people would be like, oh,that's super traumatizing, but
(05:00):
it was my fto suicide and Ididn't consider it super
traumatizing at this pointbecause it'd been so long.
But apparently my therapist waslike okay, I told you to start
out small.
You are bawling right now.
What is going on?
(05:20):
I told you to start small and Isaid I have no idea where this
came from.
no idea, just everything justflooded um and he was like I
think that affected you morethan you thought, so we got, we
worked through that one, um.
But then he's like let's trysmaller and it can't involve
death.
And I'm like okay, well, like Idon't know, I was thinking
(05:45):
about my dog that got hit by acar.
Is that, is that good?
But um, yeah, it was only rapes.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Always messed with me too.
Rapes always yes yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
So it's just one of those things that I'm like I
don't know how, so we gotthrough, but we went through
anything.
I considered a traumatic event.
Um, and you work through itdoesn't mean that you don't
think about it.
Um, like my buddy tom, heliterally lived around the
corner for me.
Um, that he got promoted to hisspot detectives and he got
(06:16):
promoted to a two-striper.
He was a corporal, essentially.
The night we were supposed toboth start our new assignments,
we had had an officer involvedshooting, so he still had his
unmarked detective car which wasgoing to me and I had my patrol
car that was going to him.
He called me.
He's like, hey, did you getthat call?
And I said yeah, and he's like,and he was on SWAT.
(06:38):
So he's like, I got to come in,I got to switch cars with you
and I was like, okay, and he wasgoing on patrol anyways, he was
going to go help out and theydidn't need swat at the time.
And so I was like, okay, and weliterally he drove to my house,
we threw our stuff in eachother's cars and he's like, if I
forget anything, just bring itanother day.
And I was like, okay, and butagain.
I go by his house and it makesme sad, but I don't lose it like
(07:02):
I used to.
I don't and I don't avoid thearea like I used to, because
it's a main thoroughfare wherehe lives and so sometimes on the
way home I would have to go byit and I would just start.
I purposely would avoid thatarea.
Now I don't avoid it.
Um, you know I got some closurefrom it, so that did help.
Um, I know there's some othertherapies.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
How many EMDR treatments did you do?
Oh gosh, it had to be more thanfive.
So our listeners know it's notjust like a one-time deal.
You don't just go in and you doEMDR and then you're done and
everything's better.
It's a process.
You have several visits, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
It was probably.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Would you say that once helped you go ahead all
right.
Just our listeners know we'rehaving some issues here with our
video back and forth, so we'remaking, we're going to get
through this um yes, where werewe?
Sorry, I lost my train ofthought.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
The number visits.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Oh, we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
EMDR yes.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Let's try it.
I'm going to shut his cameraoff.
I want to see if that helps thefeed at all.
I don't know that it will.
I don't know.
Anyway, actually, it seems likeit's working a little better.
Bye, jake, you hear us.
It's probably like where'dy'all go, man, I'm going to,
(08:39):
you're not.
You're not glitching at all now, so let's just keep going.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
I'll let him know, okay.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
So I think, emdr, I I first said five, but I want to
say it's around 10 to 12,because I'm trying to think of
each incident we went through,and there were other ones that I
haven't mentioned Um, so I knowwe talked about those two in my
therapy session.
So I'm like another littlebackstory about me when I was
(09:07):
about 13, my grandfathercommitted suicide my dad's dad.
So yeah, I started kind ofgetting exposed to this at a
very young age, but so it's justone of those kind of.
I mean I guess I didn't think ofit that way Uh, it was a pretty
(09:29):
traumatizing in the sense ofhow everything occurred within
that death.
Um, the backstory behind it.
So my father never wanted mesuper involved with his parents
because of some things that hesaw growing up and that things
that were done to him so Iwasn't super close to them
Doesn't mean it doesn't make itany sadder or any worse or
(09:50):
better, but I know we workedthrough that a little bit.
I know I talked to him aboutthat kind of stuff.
But even after the treatmentswe still did regular
appointments after that, justnormal, regular appointments.
And if things would come up hewould ask me if I wanted to do
the treatment again and thenwe'd set up and do it again.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah, and I tell you there's a lot more treatments
than there used to be that areout there.
A lot there's becoming.
There's a lot more treatmentsthan there used to be that are
out there, and I I've kind ofheard from every every treatment
that's out there.
I think I've heard the firstresponders say like it changed
my life because everybody reactsand responds to a different
treatment differently, right, um, but I would say emdr is up in
(10:35):
the top three or four thatreally seem people get, seem to
get benefits out of and it's notintrusive, um, it's, it's safe
when done with a, with somebodywho's properly trained.
But it's just such aninteresting thing because, jake,
you've, you've done emdr isthat correct?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
yeah, it's.
I wouldn't call it my likelife-changing treatment, but
it's been quite effective for meand I agree with what you said.
Yeah, even if it doesn't changeyour life.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
yeah, even if it doesn't change your life.
Yeah, even if it doesn't changeyour life.
Like any of these modalities,any of these different ways to
to get help, it's never just onethat's going to do it Right.
It's like the more, the more ofthese you have on your tool
belt, on your, on your policebelt, the better off we're going
to be One one.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
yeah, all that I fell into with the mdr after that
officer involved shooting I justI described on the last episode
.
I only went long enough for itto like shrink the memory to a
point where I couldcompartmentalize it.
I never finished processing ituntil just this last year, um,
so I think that's one thing I Iwould, and I typically do.
Caution people on is like itcan shrink it down to a point
(11:44):
where you're like good enough,I'm going back to regular life.
But I think it would.
I think it would have beenreally a lot more effective had
I stuck it out and seen it allthe way through.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Just kind of like all treatment right, Like, and we
do this as first responders,like it's number one.
It's hard for us to reach out,but once we do, as soon as we
reach out and we get help and westart to do good man, we think
we are on cloud nine.
We are never going to fallagain.
I am better.
Thank you, I'm going to savethe world.
Now I'm fixed.
Are you calling me out, Dan?
(12:17):
I'm calling you out.
I'm calling you out.
I'm calling me.
Society really judges people onwhen it comes.
(12:38):
It's not a failure.
When you're doing really welland your life's going good,
you're starting to get help.
Your life's doing well.
When you have a to get help,your life's doing well.
When you have a fall, there'speaks and there's valleys to
this.
When you have a fall, it feelslike you fall all the way to the
bottom and you got to start allover and it's like well, what's
the point?
Like I, I thought it was better.
Now I'm not.
And now I'm even more broken,useless.
I just will hurt myself or Ijust will, you know, do
(13:00):
something stupid.
Um, we, we convince ourselvesof that.
Now I'm losing my train ofthought.
Help me here.
I'm watching all the computersfreeze up here Um uh, what was I
saying?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Jake, you're right, it is not, you're not starting
over.
It's easy to think that, butyeah, thank you, in my own
recovery I've, I've had several,several long periods of growth,
followed by, you know, a momentor a night that feels like I
never did anything at all.
Um, and I'm talk, the worst forme has been panic attacks and
and I I've gone at times six oreight weeks or you know even a
(13:39):
little bit longer, with, withnone of that, and then it's like
what's?
One thing happens and nextthing, I know, because I kind of
black out during panic attackspersonally next thing I know, I
kind of come back to and I'vejust had one and I'm like what,
what was that?
How did that happen, you know?
But it's just kind of thenature of the beast, I think it.
Just, you know, there's peaksand valleys, but over time, as
(14:00):
long as the trajectory isgenerally upward, like you're
going to get, you're going toget to where you want to be.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, because my wife was.
We were talking about thisyesterday morning, my wife and I
.
Because when you, you guys,when you start the journey of
healing, you're going to startdoing good, you're going to
start doing a little bit ofbetter, and then you're going to
have a fall.
That just I pray it doesn'thappen, but it generally happens
.
You have a fall, but that fallisn't as far.
So as you start to heal, you goup, up, up, and then you have a
(14:27):
little fall, but that fall isonly down a little bit, but
you're still in a valley, butthis valley isn't at the same
altitude as the last valley was.
We're higher now.
We've learned coping tools,we're doing things, we're
getting healthy.
So when that valley comes down,it just dips a little bit.
And then, when you go back upin your peak, you go back up
further, further, further, andthen it dips a little bit more
(14:48):
and then you keep climbing,because it's not about
perfection, it's aboutprogression.
You're making progress, you'remaking progress, and then you
have a fall.
We all do, we're human.
That's why we need jesus.
We have a fall, we.
We do not need to beatourselves up, we do not need to
call ourselves failures, wedon't need to just say, well,
screw it, I guess I drank, so Ijust will keep drinking every
(15:09):
day.
Now, that's not what we do.
When that happens, we have ourbrothers and sisters, hopefully,
come around us.
We reach out for our supportand we dust each other off and
we say, let's get back on it,buddy, like you were doing great
, you you're not a bad person.
You did great for three weeks.
You had a couple, a couple badhours.
Let's not focus on that.
(15:29):
Let's get back to healing.
Let's get back to to wherewe're going, and that's what
healing looks like.
It's ugly sometimes, jess, it'snot other when we have those
valleys, especially in the oftenof grays for our first
responders, when they do have avalley and we expect them to
(15:49):
always be at a peak and that'snever going to happen.
It's never going to happen.
So keep going, like with the,with the EMDR.
Yeah, go ahead, jess.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I would say I just think that a lot of times, even
when we we okay, so now we're onthe good trajectory, we know
what we need to do, things havewhen bad things happen, um, and
like you were kind of saying,jake, it's things that you don't
expect, um, that kind of kindof feel sometimes and you're
like what, what just happened?
Um, and things that you don'tthink should really affect you.
Um, like I had a kind of alittle bit of an episode back in
(16:22):
May.
Did not think this would affectme, but my 93 year old
grandmother passed away.
Okay, 93.
She lived a long, great life.
She had her family by her sidewhile she passed away, you know,
and it affected me because shewas kind of like a second mom.
She was always there for me,the mother's side of the family,
(16:44):
and so I was kind of like howmy kids are with my parents, I
was like that with her.
All the grandkids were alwaysat her house.
We were always there all summerlong swimming.
We basically grew up in herhouse, and so she passed and I
hit a little bit of a glitch herhouse, and so she passed and I
(17:05):
hit a little bit of a glitch.
My department really likerallied and came and helped me
out with anything I needed.
The cool thing that made mebroke out of everything that I
broke down with was we go to theviewing and my department sent
flowers and condolence flowersand to the viewing and I just
broke down like a blubberingbaby because it meant so much to
me.
It was my association actuallywithin my department, but it
(17:28):
just meant so much to me thatthey thought about me.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
She was 93.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
I mean, she lived a great life.
It's you know she, it's anatural.
She died natural causes, um,and we were expecting it to
happen, but it was just that.
So I, I even told my, my, myguys, I said thank you for
everything.
Just, I might be a little slowgetting back to things, but I'm
getting there and they totallyrallied around me and that's
(17:52):
kind of what you need to.
It sounds weird to say, butonce you get on the path of
knowing what you need to do foryour mental health to get better
, I think talking about it isn'ta bad thing when you're writing
, obviously, because it mayencourage somebody else to get
help, but then also, when you'rehaving those times that you're
falling, you can express thatand you can have other people
(18:12):
rally around you and pick you up.
There's people out.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
You have a lot of people in your corner that you
don't know about and you don'tthink that they you don't know
about and you don't think thatthey, you don't think about it
until things happen and all of asudden they show up.
They do, yeah, yeah.
But you have to be intentional,though.
To stay in community, like tohave friends like that around
you.
It matters who we hang around,it matters the time we spend
with people.
Those people matter when we gothrough these things.
If we got people that are likeoh jess, you're struggling, all
(18:38):
right, we're coming to pick youup, we're gonna go to the bar,
we're gonna get drunk and we'regonna yeah, those are like
that's not what you want.
You want, you want fellow firstresponders or friends to come
around and just love on you,yeah you know, no, no, no, shame
yeah that was the other thing.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
My best friend came to the funeral and like again,
she's 93, like not expectingthat, and I walked, she walked
up and she was, you know, it's aCatholic viewing.
So she walked up and she wentto, you know, get the Eucharist
and I felt an arm touch myshoulder and I turned around, it
was her and I again juststarted falling, just lost it,
just absolutely lost it.
(19:14):
Um, you know, and I also had tokind of change perspective of,
yes, I'm hurting at that timebut, uh, sounds odd.
But my son, whose hate was veryclose to my grandmother, so
this is his great grandma, um,close to her, very, very close.
And so he basically, I mean hecried the whole time we were
walking out of the church andeverybody was okay again 93,
(19:37):
everybody's okay and I got toldby multiple people they saw that
eight-year-old crying and theyall lost it, they all.
He was like grabbing my mom,holding my mom, and he was just
bawling yeah so it doesn'tmatter the age, it's hard yeah.
So it was kind of neat becausehim and I got to share that,
that healing experience together.
(19:57):
Um, and we talked, you know, Italked to him that it's okay to
cry and um because he's eight,so he's not expressing wanting
to be a cop or anything likethat, or going to the first
responder yet.
But I, just in case, I want himto know that he can express
(20:17):
himself, he can cry, he can haveemotions.
He can't talk to people.
I don't want him to shy awayfrom that.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, Even if he doesn't become a first responder
.
Those are skills All young menall need, all children need to
learn.
Yeah, Because if we don't teachthem that, they're going to
learn it from the, from theworld.
If we don't teach them how tobecause our kids are watching us
all the time If we don't teachthem how we deal with stress and
emotions and failures andsetbacks they're looking at us
(20:47):
how we do it our kids are goingto mock.
So we have to be very aware andI love that and a lot of people
like to exclude their kids fromeverything, Like don't even
bring it up around them.
No, bring it up to them for theappropriate age that they are,
Because they're seeing thestress, they're feeling the
stress and if you don't talkabout it, then they're stuck
just feeling it.
And they're young, they have noidea what that is.
You know, all of a sudden theygot a headache or a tummy
(21:10):
because all the stress andyou're like why are you stressed
out?
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah.
So all first responders thatare listening, if you're having
that time and you again, maybelet your kids know, because kids
aren't.
Kids aren't stupid, they'revery smart, they can.
They can feel it.
They can feel the tension inthe air.
They can feel.
They can read your bodylanguage.
I know we have a lot of theycall them the COVID babies going
into kindergarten right now, orwe don't know facial
(21:35):
expressions anymore because weall wear masks.
But they can read body language, they can sense your tone, so
it doesn't hurt to kind of letthem know hey, mom or dad had
just had a really hard day atwork and I just need a few
minutes to myself.
My kids are very understandingwith that.
No-transcript.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah.
Question for you.
Either one of you can take thishave you ever been when you
were working?
Was there ever a time where youknew an officer?
I, I didn't.
I was a guy that was in denialthe whole time my career but
where you saw somebodystruggling and you actually,
like, went up and, just out ofthe blue or whatever, you saw
him struggling.
You went up and approached himand said, hey, are you okay,
(22:28):
let's talk.
Yeah, or is because a lot offirst responders avoid each
other, they don't bring it up?
I've, I've.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I've even done it since I left.
I heard about a West Des Moinesofficer, one on a call where a
kid was left in a bathtubunattended and drowned in the
bathtub, and I heard from justfrom some of my friends.
I'm still in touch with that.
He was very obviously affectedby it immediately still in touch
(22:59):
with that.
He was very obviously affectedby it immediately and uh, no one
, no one really did anythingother than said, like, hang in
there and hope you're all right.
And so I called him.
I called him and talked to himabout it and I told him my own
experience with those three,those three kids that, uh, those
three calls with kids that Imentioned previously.
And you know, I don't know thatit did a ton, but for me, you
know, in my own processing, Ihave just recognized the power
(23:20):
of talking to somebody who getsit, and so I think it helps, and
I think it.
I don't know, I haven't talkedto him now for a while.
He's got some other stuff goingon, but uh, I think, I'd like
to think it made a difference.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, and I do it all the time now, but back when I
was copping I never even if Isaw somebody struggling, jess, I
never went up and said, like doyou want to talk?
I don't know, I was part of theproblem.
I don't know if you've heardthe podcast before, but I was
part of the.
I used to be part of theproblem.
(23:58):
I remember we had an officerthat got involved in a shooting.
He killed a guy.
Um, tried to come back to work.
Well, went off, tried to comeback to work.
When he came back to work itwas like the first week or so he
gets called to a child who gotbacked over outside the library
and killed and he ended up goingon a medical disability and
everybody in the department justtreated him like he was a
broken piece of trash, likealmost like really.
And then and and I knew then itwas wrong.
(24:20):
But I, but back then, I samething.
Then I joined right in like areyou serious?
You know.
And then here you know, 14years later I go out on a
medical disability.
Ironic how that works.
But um, jess have you whenyou've done that at work has
have you ever had it?
Go bad, because everybody'safraid to talk to each other in
the first responder world.
Because it's like we we knowwhat to say when we're on calls.
(24:41):
Somehow we know how to sayeverything, but we don't know
how to talk to each other.
Yeah, um, you guys heard metalk this on here before, but
yep, go ahead it's it's uh.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
So the one thing, the difference between male and
female, obviously most of lawenforcement is it's a male
dominated profession.
Let's let's be real Most firstresponders are male dominated.
Maybe not in the EMT world itmight be more split, but it's
male dominated.
So it's harder for a female togo up to a male to say that just
because, first off, most of theguys I worked with are married
(25:13):
and I want to respect boundaries, just because, first off, most
of the guys I worked with weremarried and I want to respect
boundaries.
Um, you know, I very I had veryfew officers I would talk to
off duty, but I also knew theirwives, so like I would talk to
them too.
Um, in fact, I had a partner.
His wife was a teacher and soshe actually helped my daughter
with some school stuff andthings like that and we would
get to, I would get togetherwith her and meet at the park
(25:34):
with our kids.
So I formed those friendshipsoutside, but it was kind of a
fine line I did talk to.
I remember one in particularafter an officer involved
shooting, he basically saved akid's life.
I actually did the podcast withhim on his podcast and he-.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Name it.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Oh, fit for Duty.
And I remember Fit for Dutypodcast, duty podcast.
Yes, yes, it's for firstresponders.
Um, he's no longer incalifornia, he's in texas now.
But, um, he was in californiaand he was a cop that I worked
with day in and day out and, uh,he, I remember he got in a
shooting.
And the first thing when theycalled us in, they said I said
who was?
And they told me, you know, oh,it was gilbert.
(26:15):
It's like all right, I'm on myway in, I get into the office
and he's in the break room andI'm like, what are you doing
here?
and he's like, oh, yeah, they'retaking him to the hospital
because, he cut his hand,breaking the glass to get to
this kid and, um, I gave him abig old hug and I said did you
call your wife?
He goes no, she's sleeping.
(26:38):
I don't want to wake him up andI put my hand on his hand, his
good hand.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Call her.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
I said you need to call her because you have a
newborn baby.
If she gets up to feed the babyand the baby doesn't want to go
back to sleep because I've beenthere as a mother, she's going
to turn on the TV.
And what if she turns on thenews and he goes?
Oh I, I didn't think about that.
I said yeah.
So he called her, um, and then,like I had to go to the
(27:06):
hospital to talk to the childthat he saved, and, um, I went
and checked on him and then yeahhe's, he's a great guy, he
really and he saved that kid'slife um after interviewing that
kid.
I 100 believe he saved thatkid's life um and wow, that's a
fantastic he's a great guy andhe ended up coming into
detectives after that um and weclicked immediately like we were
(27:29):
, just we were.
We were friends from there onand we still are, and so I would
kind of check in on him alittle bit.
My buddy Tom, he was one that Ikind of tried to check in on,
but again I didn't want to crossboundaries with him because I
didn't know her super well, buthe was kind of in some trouble
(27:51):
before he committed suicide andI remember seeing him and he
would try to find where I wouldsee him at work.
I would just let him know thatI was always there.
Hey, if you ever need to talk,you ever need a few minutes, let
me know.
But again I wasn't.
It was more of that.
I think with females to a maleit's a little bit harder because
we just don't want to.
We don't want to crossboundaries but female to female.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
I haven't had recently.
I'm trying to think back anyother females that have been
affected with kind of the samesituation yet, but I have a lot
of coming from the academy sowe'll see if that kind of
increases.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah and listen.
Just don't be afraid.
I know it's hard, trust me.
I know.
I told you how I felt at it,but I know it's hard.
But if you see somebody hurting, I know it's uncomfortable.
I say this all the time.
I know it's uncomfortable to goup and say something.
You're going to beuncomfortable, but I promise you
, if you do it, theuncomfortableness of not doing
it is 10 times worse.
Just, you don't have to havethe right words.
(28:54):
Literally, people don't.
I know that from doing it everyday.
People don't need you to showup with all the answers.
They don't need you to show upwith with a pillow and a blankie
and they don't need they don'tneed that.
What they need there, and thatis they just need somebody to
show up who understands and iswilling to listen.
That's the difference willingto listen, not sit there and ask
(29:18):
questions about it and or judgethem and tell them how they
should get healing or how theyshould what treatment they
should do.
The art of being an awesomepeer is just simply checking on
one another and listening andlisten to understand.
Don't listen to to then addyour story to it.
Like listen to understand, getto know each other.
Um, you've told me to talk tothis.
(29:39):
While I was in Boston, I met apolice officer who told me um,
he had a, he had a partner as atwo minute.
They had a two man car.
He had a partner that one dayjust said hey.
I looked at him and said hey,I'm going to kill myself when I
get off work.
And he was didn't know what tosay.
He's nervous, didn't know whatto say, didn't know if he was
serious.
And when he got they got offwork, the guy went home and
(30:00):
killed himself.
And now this guy lives with it.
He's like I didn't know what tosay and he's, you know, telling
the story and he's balling.
But, um, whoa, just saysomething, just show up for each
other, would you agree, jess?
Yeah, j yeah.
Jake, would you?
Speaker 3 (30:12):
guys agree.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
You reminded me of a time when someone tried to check
on me after a call and it was a.
It was a female officer and shewas the peer support thing had
had just become a thing Like it.
Just this movement had juststarted.
And she came up to me as I wasleaving and I knew she joined
that program and I just kind ofhad this opinion of her as an
officer that like I don't know,like I just didn't see us on the
same level and she tried totalk to me and I just I had no
(30:44):
time for it, but I still, likeobviously I still remember it,
like I still I still rememberthat someone asked me and if I,
if I could now I would havetalked to her, I would have, I
would have talked to her, Iwould.
I would have said let's go out,you know, let's go sit down
somewhere and talk about it.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
But at the time it was like yeah, you don't even
know.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
You don't even know we're doing the same job.
But somehow I had this beliefthat she was different and she
didn't, couldn't understand.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yeah, yeah.
So so you see somebody herejust say something.
I mean I know, just go up, givehim a fist bump, so you're
doing.
All right, give him a hug,whatever it may be, be that
person, be that light in yourdepartment.
All right, guys, we're going towrap this up, not to put you on
the spot, but is there any lastword you guys want to say for
our listeners or some peoplelistening that might be like you
(31:29):
know what?
Maybe I should reach out forhelp, or, yeah, you know they're
in the midst of it right now.
Do it.
Uh, throw them something realquick before we leave, do it
that's I mean, I don't know howelse to describe it.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Do it, don't wait, because?
Because if you don't do it now,then when and if?
And look at where you are nowand look at where you could be
in six months.
What's the difference going tobe between asking for help now
and if you don't in six months?
What are you going to lose?
How much worse is it going toget?
Speaker 3 (32:02):
what's the?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
bottom how far down.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Can you go?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
so just do it.
Agreed 100, 100, agreed 100,just if you already feel like
you're at the bottom, this itcan either help you or it's
going to keep you the same.
So why not try?
Um, there's a lot of help outthere.
I just think that people don'tknow where to start.
I don't know out there if youguys have it, but peer support
programs are also really good.
Most, I think most agencieshave them.
Um, I know our agency does,even as small as it is.
(32:25):
But if not, go to a biggerneighboring agency, especially
the fire department.
They actually do very well withtheir peer support programs.
From what I've heard.
I've heard their peer supportprograms are amazing, probably
because they're all sowell-rested.
I know those recliners.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
I lost you guys for a little bit.
There we go.
There you are, Jake.
I missed your joke.
You said something about a fire.
I said it's probably probablybecause they're so well rested
yeah, you know what I wasactually talking to firemen
about the difference between thecops and fires, like the, the
image and the stigma with ptsd,and he's gonna explain it to me.
(33:09):
Like with officers, we show upfor work, we say hi to each
other, we get in our cars and weleave.
They live in community all thetime.
I mean, they are breaking breadtogether, they're watching TVs
together, so they live in thatcommunity where that has an
opportunity to come up a lotmore than you know, because
we're out saving the world.
They're sitting at the firedepartment waiting for no, I'm
(33:31):
just kidding.
I love all you firefighters.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Yeah we actually had a really good one.
I, one of the little ruralcities I worked in just a real
quick we.
We had a very tight knit.
We were very tight with ourfire department to where
sometimes we would bring sidesand they would cook dinner and
we'd have a big dinner.
At least once a week We'd havebig dinners out there.
So it was kind of cool.
But yeah, their, their peersupport, I heard is is a lot
(33:56):
better, um, in the sense of howthey organize it, how they run
it.
So if you're a police officeror EMT, um, I even go nurses If
you are not able to findsomething within your place, go
to the fire department.
The fire departments usuallyhave a very good peer support
program and they're amazinggreat advice, great advice yeah,
cool well, cool.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Well, thank you guys.
I hope you have a good weekend.
Jess and jake, I reallyappreciate you guys being on and
again, I'm going to have you ona lot more often.
I want to have you on to kindof help co-host, so I'm not the
one hosting it.
I want to get to a point whereI'm not even on here sometimes
and it's just y'all running it,cool, and other people.
That just where people can justcome on and record or not.
(34:37):
Just that's why it's calledshared voices.
People don't have to hear mystupid voice all the time.
But, thank you guys, listeners,we love you.
Reach out, we care for you.
I don't care if you got hired,retired or fired, we don't care.
We care about the person, wedon't care about the uniform.
(35:01):
We want to help you, we want tohelp your family, we want to
help you get healthy.
We want to get you back backliving life to the fullest and
enjoying life the way godintended.
So thanks for tuning in, reachout to our organization if you
(35:28):
need any help.
And again, uh, thank you jakeand thank you Jess.
Thanks, dan.
Or a company or your church maywant to get involved in
supporting 1042 Project'smission of equipping, restoring
and repurposing our firstresponders.
Please reach out to us at10-42projectorg.
There is a giving page on there.
We need your help.
We need your support.
If you can't get financially,please be willing to share the
(35:50):
word of our podcast, of ourorganization and the work that
God's doing.
Thank you and have a blessedweek.
Welcome back to another episode of Shared Voices
, a first responder podcastbrought to you by the 1042
Project, and I love the beat tothat.
It's hard to get music for yourpodcast because music's so
protected.
like trying to buy music becauseyou can't just pull, like I
can't just play a radio songright now because it would, it
(00:30):
wouldn't allow me to do it, itwouldn't let me play it anywhere
right so you're kind of stuckwith like these generic audio
bits, unless you, unless you cancreate your own, which I am not
musically gifted, but maybelike and just sing for me and we
can do our own little jingle.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, welcome back guys, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Well, I wanted to bring you guys back.
We did the first episode andand I loved it.
But I looked at the time and Iwas like Holy crap, let's stop,
because, especially firstresponders, we have the
attention span of our frog.
Let's shut it down and shortenthe episode a little bit and do
a second one.
So thank you guys for comingback and doing part two, because
I really wanted to jump into,just kind of jump in right.
(01:17):
Where we left off is let's talkabout the difference between,
and see if there is a differencebetween, california and some of
the mental health treatmentsyou guys are getting out there
that is common or new to yourarea, compared to us.
Because you may not know this,jess, but in Iowa, the Midwest
is kind of the last one to getresources for stuff like this,
(01:39):
because it kind of goes aroundthe coast, it starts with
California and New York, youknow, kind of wraps around
Florida.
We don't get a lot, I mean likenone almost.
So we end up sending a lot ofpeople to california to get
treatment, to get health,because there's a lot of stuff
out there.
There's a lot of firstresponders, inpatient facilities
that have different retreatsthat are just for first
(02:00):
responders, which is veryimportant when you're seeking
treatment.
You know when you're, whenyou're when you're a cop or a
firefighter.
You don't want to go into thegeneral pop recovery.
You want to.
You want to recover with somebrothers and sisters that are
kind of like-minded.
So we have to send them out toCalifornia, jess.
So and I don't know if you knewthat or not, but there's not a
lot here you guys are kind of.
(02:20):
You guys are kind of it it.
So tell us what's going on outthere.
What are you using to help withyour mental health, your
husband and kind of some of thepeople in that area, because I
know jake's tried some thingsand I'm all for whatever works,
honestly.
So what's going on out in cali?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
so I know there are facilities here.
There are a lot of inpatientsprobably not close to where I'm
at.
I think a lot of them are downsouth.
I, I know San Diego.
I know their police departmentespecially has a huge wellness
program.
So I know that they probablyhave some more facilities,
probably down in SouthernCalifornia.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Newport Beach area is a really big area.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
And I've heard of that one.
Yes, I don't know the name ofit, but I remember Newport Beach
and I thought that's an amazingplace to probably.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Newport has a lot of them.
Actually, they got a.
So, I yeah, they got a coupleof them.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah, and where I'm at, I mean we do have therapists
here, we do have psychologiststhat are specially trained for
first responders.
We usually most agenciescontract with somebody off the
bat, so with through their peersupport program, they will
contract immediately withsomebody who specializes in that
(03:35):
field and then it depends onwhat that therapist wants to
offer for treatment.
So for my personal, what I'veused was EMDR.
Did I say the initials right?
Yes, my therapist was a firstresponder therapist.
Yes, and I use that and I thinkI was telling you guys earlier
(03:56):
it was.
I was really skeptical.
I was like, seriously, I'mgoing to hold these little pad
things and they're kind ofvibrate and I'm cause I couldn't
do the finger.
It reminded me too much ofbeing an FST.
So I was like, no, I can't dothat.
So you held the little right.
It was like follow my parents.
He's like you can't do that one.
I'm like no, no, no, no, no andthey would vibrate on one side
(04:22):
or the other and it was crazyhow it actually worked.
Again, very skeptical, becauseI'm a cop, I'm skeptical.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Right yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
That's not going to work.
I don't know what you'retalking about, and it's not.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Voodoo crap yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
It's not like a hypnotizing thing, it was a.
You just closed your eyes andhe made you think of a memory
and we started out small, um,something that wasn't super
traumatic, something that youstill kind of bugged you, um,
because he wanted to start outthat way.
And what was crazy was thefirst event that I picked.
Most people would be like, oh,that's super traumatizing, but
(05:00):
it was my fto suicide and Ididn't consider it super
traumatizing at this pointbecause it'd been so long.
But apparently my therapist waslike okay, I told you to start
out small.
You are bawling right now.
What is going on?
(05:20):
I told you to start small and Isaid I have no idea where this
came from.
no idea, just everything justflooded um and he was like I
think that affected you morethan you thought, so we got, we
worked through that one, um.
But then he's like let's trysmaller and it can't involve
death.
And I'm like okay, well, like Idon't know, I was thinking
(05:45):
about my dog that got hit by acar.
Is that, is that good?
But um, yeah, it was only rapes.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Always messed with me too.
Rapes always yes yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
So it's just one of those things that I'm like I
don't know how, so we gotthrough, but we went through
anything.
I considered a traumatic event.
Um, and you work through itdoesn't mean that you don't
think about it.
Um, like my buddy tom, heliterally lived around the
corner for me.
Um, that he got promoted to hisspot detectives and he got
(06:16):
promoted to a two-striper.
He was a corporal, essentially.
The night we were supposed toboth start our new assignments,
we had had an officer involvedshooting, so he still had his
unmarked detective car which wasgoing to me and I had my patrol
car that was going to him.
He called me.
He's like, hey, did you getthat call?
And I said yeah, and he's like,and he was on SWAT.
(06:38):
So he's like, I got to come in,I got to switch cars with you
and I was like, okay, and he wasgoing on patrol anyways, he was
going to go help out and theydidn't need swat at the time.
And so I was like, okay, and weliterally he drove to my house,
we threw our stuff in eachother's cars and he's like, if I
forget anything, just bring itanother day.
And I was like, okay, and butagain.
I go by his house and it makesme sad, but I don't lose it like
(07:02):
I used to.
I don't and I don't avoid thearea like I used to, because
it's a main thoroughfare wherehe lives and so sometimes on the
way home I would have to go byit and I would just start.
I purposely would avoid thatarea.
Now I don't avoid it.
Um, you know I got some closurefrom it, so that did help.
Um, I know there's some othertherapies.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
How many EMDR treatments did you do?
Oh gosh, it had to be more thanfive.
So our listeners know it's notjust like a one-time deal.
You don't just go in and you doEMDR and then you're done and
everything's better.
It's a process.
You have several visits, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
It was probably.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Would you say that once helped you go ahead all
right.
Just our listeners know we'rehaving some issues here with our
video back and forth, so we'remaking, we're going to get
through this um yes, where werewe?
Sorry, I lost my train ofthought.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
The number visits.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Oh, we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
EMDR yes.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Let's try it.
I'm going to shut his cameraoff.
I want to see if that helps thefeed at all.
I don't know that it will.
I don't know.
Anyway, actually, it seems likeit's working a little better.
Bye, jake, you hear us.
It's probably like where'dy'all go, man, I'm going to,
(08:39):
you're not.
You're not glitching at all now, so let's just keep going.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
I'll let him know, okay.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
So I think, emdr, I I first said five, but I want to
say it's around 10 to 12,because I'm trying to think of
each incident we went through,and there were other ones that I
haven't mentioned Um, so I knowwe talked about those two in my
therapy session.
So I'm like another littlebackstory about me when I was
(09:07):
about 13, my grandfathercommitted suicide my dad's dad.
So yeah, I started kind ofgetting exposed to this at a
very young age, but so it's justone of those kind of.
I mean I guess I didn't think ofit that way Uh, it was a pretty
(09:29):
traumatizing in the sense ofhow everything occurred within
that death.
Um, the backstory behind it.
So my father never wanted mesuper involved with his parents
because of some things that hesaw growing up and that things
that were done to him so Iwasn't super close to them
Doesn't mean it doesn't make itany sadder or any worse or
(09:50):
better, but I know we workedthrough that a little bit.
I know I talked to him aboutthat kind of stuff.
But even after the treatmentswe still did regular
appointments after that, justnormal, regular appointments.
And if things would come up hewould ask me if I wanted to do
the treatment again and thenwe'd set up and do it again.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah, and I tell you there's a lot more treatments
than there used to be that areout there.
A lot there's becoming.
There's a lot more treatmentsthan there used to be that are
out there, and I I've kind ofheard from every every treatment
that's out there.
I think I've heard the firstresponders say like it changed
my life because everybody reactsand responds to a different
treatment differently, right, um, but I would say emdr is up in
(10:35):
the top three or four thatreally seem people get, seem to
get benefits out of and it's notintrusive, um, it's, it's safe
when done with a, with somebodywho's properly trained.
But it's just such aninteresting thing because, jake,
you've, you've done emdr isthat correct?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
yeah, it's.
I wouldn't call it my likelife-changing treatment, but
it's been quite effective for meand I agree with what you said.
Yeah, even if it doesn't changeyour life.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
yeah, even if it doesn't change your life.
Yeah, even if it doesn't changeyour life.
Like any of these modalities,any of these different ways to
to get help, it's never just onethat's going to do it Right.
It's like the more, the more ofthese you have on your tool
belt, on your, on your policebelt, the better off we're going
to be One one.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
yeah, all that I fell into with the mdr after that
officer involved shooting I justI described on the last episode
.
I only went long enough for itto like shrink the memory to a
point where I couldcompartmentalize it.
I never finished processing ituntil just this last year, um,
so I think that's one thing I Iwould, and I typically do.
Caution people on is like itcan shrink it down to a point
(11:44):
where you're like good enough,I'm going back to regular life.
But I think it would.
I think it would have beenreally a lot more effective had
I stuck it out and seen it allthe way through.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Just kind of like all treatment right, Like, and we
do this as first responders,like it's number one.
It's hard for us to reach out,but once we do, as soon as we
reach out and we get help and westart to do good man, we think
we are on cloud nine.
We are never going to fallagain.
I am better.
Thank you, I'm going to savethe world.
Now I'm fixed.
Are you calling me out, Dan?
(12:17):
I'm calling you out.
I'm calling you out.
I'm calling me.
Society really judges people onwhen it comes.
(12:38):
It's not a failure.
When you're doing really welland your life's going good,
you're starting to get help.
Your life's doing well.
When you have a to get help,your life's doing well.
When you have a fall, there'speaks and there's valleys to
this.
When you have a fall, it feelslike you fall all the way to the
bottom and you got to start allover and it's like well, what's
the point?
Like I, I thought it was better.
Now I'm not.
And now I'm even more broken,useless.
I just will hurt myself or Ijust will, you know, do
(13:00):
something stupid.
Um, we, we convince ourselvesof that.
Now I'm losing my train ofthought.
Help me here.
I'm watching all the computersfreeze up here Um uh, what was I
saying?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Jake, you're right, it is not, you're not starting
over.
It's easy to think that, butyeah, thank you, in my own
recovery I've, I've had several,several long periods of growth,
followed by, you know, a momentor a night that feels like I
never did anything at all.
Um, and I'm talk, the worst forme has been panic attacks and
and I I've gone at times six oreight weeks or you know even a
(13:39):
little bit longer, with, withnone of that, and then it's like
what's?
One thing happens and nextthing, I know, because I kind of
black out during panic attackspersonally next thing I know, I
kind of come back to and I'vejust had one and I'm like what,
what was that?
How did that happen, you know?
But it's just kind of thenature of the beast, I think it.
Just, you know, there's peaksand valleys, but over time, as
(14:00):
long as the trajectory isgenerally upward, like you're
going to get, you're going toget to where you want to be.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, because my wife was.
We were talking about thisyesterday morning, my wife and I
.
Because when you, you guys,when you start the journey of
healing, you're going to startdoing good, you're going to
start doing a little bit ofbetter, and then you're going to
have a fall.
That just I pray it doesn'thappen, but it generally happens
.
You have a fall, but that fallisn't as far.
So as you start to heal, you goup, up, up, and then you have a
(14:27):
little fall, but that fall isonly down a little bit, but
you're still in a valley, butthis valley isn't at the same
altitude as the last valley was.
We're higher now.
We've learned coping tools,we're doing things, we're
getting healthy.
So when that valley comes down,it just dips a little bit.
And then, when you go back upin your peak, you go back up
further, further, further, andthen it dips a little bit more
(14:48):
and then you keep climbing,because it's not about
perfection, it's aboutprogression.
You're making progress, you'remaking progress, and then you
have a fall.
We all do, we're human.
That's why we need jesus.
We have a fall, we.
We do not need to beatourselves up, we do not need to
call ourselves failures, wedon't need to just say, well,
screw it, I guess I drank, so Ijust will keep drinking every
(15:09):
day.
Now, that's not what we do.
When that happens, we have ourbrothers and sisters, hopefully,
come around us.
We reach out for our supportand we dust each other off and
we say, let's get back on it,buddy, like you were doing great
, you you're not a bad person.
You did great for three weeks.
You had a couple, a couple badhours.
Let's not focus on that.
(15:29):
Let's get back to healing.
Let's get back to to wherewe're going, and that's what
healing looks like.
It's ugly sometimes, jess, it'snot other when we have those
valleys, especially in the oftenof grays for our first
responders, when they do have avalley and we expect them to
(15:49):
always be at a peak and that'snever going to happen.
It's never going to happen.
So keep going, like with the,with the EMDR.
Yeah, go ahead, jess.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I would say I just think that a lot of times, even
when we we okay, so now we're onthe good trajectory, we know
what we need to do, things havewhen bad things happen, um, and
like you were kind of saying,jake, it's things that you don't
expect, um, that kind of kindof feel sometimes and you're
like what, what just happened?
Um, and things that you don'tthink should really affect you.
Um, like I had a kind of alittle bit of an episode back in
(16:22):
May.
Did not think this would affectme, but my 93 year old
grandmother passed away.
Okay, 93.
She lived a long, great life.
She had her family by her sidewhile she passed away, you know,
and it affected me because shewas kind of like a second mom.
She was always there for me,the mother's side of the family,
(16:44):
and so I was kind of like howmy kids are with my parents, I
was like that with her.
All the grandkids were alwaysat her house.
We were always there all summerlong swimming.
We basically grew up in herhouse, and so she passed and I
hit a little bit of a glitch herhouse, and so she passed and I
(17:05):
hit a little bit of a glitch.
My department really likerallied and came and helped me
out with anything I needed.
The cool thing that made mebroke out of everything that I
broke down with was we go to theviewing and my department sent
flowers and condolence flowersand to the viewing and I just
broke down like a blubberingbaby because it meant so much to
me.
It was my association actuallywithin my department, but it
(17:28):
just meant so much to me thatthey thought about me.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
She was 93.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
I mean, she lived a great life.
It's you know she, it's anatural.
She died natural causes, um,and we were expecting it to
happen, but it was just that.
So I, I even told my, my, myguys, I said thank you for
everything.
Just, I might be a little slowgetting back to things, but I'm
getting there and they totallyrallied around me and that's
(17:52):
kind of what you need to.
It sounds weird to say, butonce you get on the path of
knowing what you need to do foryour mental health to get better
, I think talking about it isn'ta bad thing when you're writing
, obviously, because it mayencourage somebody else to get
help, but then also, when you'rehaving those times that you're
falling, you can express thatand you can have other people
(18:12):
rally around you and pick you up.
There's people out.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
You have a lot of people in your corner that you
don't know about and you don'tthink that they you don't know
about and you don't think thatthey, you don't think about it
until things happen and all of asudden they show up.
They do, yeah, yeah.
But you have to be intentional,though.
To stay in community, like tohave friends like that around
you.
It matters who we hang around,it matters the time we spend
with people.
Those people matter when we gothrough these things.
If we got people that are likeoh jess, you're struggling, all
(18:38):
right, we're coming to pick youup, we're gonna go to the bar,
we're gonna get drunk and we'regonna yeah, those are like
that's not what you want.
You want, you want fellow firstresponders or friends to come
around and just love on you,yeah you know, no, no, no, shame
yeah that was the other thing.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
My best friend came to the funeral and like again,
she's 93, like not expectingthat, and I walked, she walked
up and she was, you know, it's aCatholic viewing.
So she walked up and she wentto, you know, get the Eucharist
and I felt an arm touch myshoulder and I turned around, it
was her and I again juststarted falling, just lost it,
just absolutely lost it.
(19:14):
Um, you know, and I also had tokind of change perspective of,
yes, I'm hurting at that timebut, uh, sounds odd.
But my son, whose hate was veryclose to my grandmother, so
this is his great grandma, um,close to her, very, very close.
And so he basically, I mean hecried the whole time we were
walking out of the church andeverybody was okay again 93,
(19:37):
everybody's okay and I got toldby multiple people they saw that
eight-year-old crying and theyall lost it, they all.
He was like grabbing my mom,holding my mom, and he was just
bawling yeah so it doesn'tmatter the age, it's hard yeah.
So it was kind of neat becausehim and I got to share that,
that healing experience together.
(19:57):
Um, and we talked, you know, Italked to him that it's okay to
cry and um because he's eight,so he's not expressing wanting
to be a cop or anything likethat, or going to the first
responder yet.
But I, just in case, I want himto know that he can express
(20:17):
himself, he can cry, he can haveemotions.
He can't talk to people.
I don't want him to shy awayfrom that.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, Even if he doesn't become a first responder
.
Those are skills All young menall need, all children need to
learn.
Yeah, Because if we don't teachthem that, they're going to
learn it from the, from theworld.
If we don't teach them how tobecause our kids are watching us
all the time If we don't teachthem how we deal with stress and
emotions and failures andsetbacks they're looking at us
(20:47):
how we do it our kids are goingto mock.
So we have to be very aware andI love that and a lot of people
like to exclude their kids fromeverything, Like don't even
bring it up around them.
No, bring it up to them for theappropriate age that they are,
Because they're seeing thestress, they're feeling the
stress and if you don't talkabout it, then they're stuck
just feeling it.
And they're young, they have noidea what that is.
You know, all of a sudden theygot a headache or a tummy
(21:10):
because all the stress andyou're like why are you stressed
out?
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah.
So all first responders thatare listening, if you're having
that time and you again, maybelet your kids know, because kids
aren't.
Kids aren't stupid, they'revery smart, they can.
They can feel it.
They can feel the tension inthe air.
They can feel.
They can read your bodylanguage.
I know we have a lot of theycall them the COVID babies going
into kindergarten right now, orwe don't know facial
(21:35):
expressions anymore because weall wear masks.
But they can read body language, they can sense your tone, so
it doesn't hurt to kind of letthem know hey, mom or dad had
just had a really hard day atwork and I just need a few
minutes to myself.
My kids are very understandingwith that.
No-transcript.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah.
Question for you.
Either one of you can take thishave you ever been when you
were working?
Was there ever a time where youknew an officer?
I, I didn't.
I was a guy that was in denialthe whole time my career but
where you saw somebodystruggling and you actually,
like, went up and, just out ofthe blue or whatever, you saw
him struggling.
You went up and approached himand said, hey, are you okay,
(22:28):
let's talk.
Yeah, or is because a lot offirst responders avoid each
other, they don't bring it up?
I've, I've.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I've even done it since I left.
I heard about a West Des Moinesofficer, one on a call where a
kid was left in a bathtubunattended and drowned in the
bathtub, and I heard from justfrom some of my friends.
I'm still in touch with that.
He was very obviously affectedby it immediately still in touch
(22:59):
with that.
He was very obviously affectedby it immediately and uh, no one
, no one really did anythingother than said, like, hang in
there and hope you're all right.
And so I called him.
I called him and talked to himabout it and I told him my own
experience with those three,those three kids that, uh, those
three calls with kids that Imentioned previously.
And you know, I don't know thatit did a ton, but for me, you
know, in my own processing, Ihave just recognized the power
(23:20):
of talking to somebody who getsit, and so I think it helps, and
I think it.
I don't know, I haven't talkedto him now for a while.
He's got some other stuff goingon, but uh, I think, I'd like
to think it made a difference.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, and I do it all the time now, but back when I
was copping I never even if Isaw somebody struggling, jess, I
never went up and said, like doyou want to talk?
I don't know, I was part of theproblem.
I don't know if you've heardthe podcast before, but I was
part of the.
I used to be part of theproblem.
(23:58):
I remember we had an officerthat got involved in a shooting.
He killed a guy.
Um, tried to come back to work.
Well, went off, tried to comeback to work.
When he came back to work itwas like the first week or so he
gets called to a child who gotbacked over outside the library
and killed and he ended up goingon a medical disability and
everybody in the department justtreated him like he was a
broken piece of trash, likealmost like really.
And then and and I knew then itwas wrong.
(24:20):
But I, but back then, I samething.
Then I joined right in like areyou serious?
You know.
And then here you know, 14years later I go out on a
medical disability.
Ironic how that works.
But um, jess have you whenyou've done that at work has
have you ever had it?
Go bad, because everybody'safraid to talk to each other in
the first responder world.
Because it's like we we knowwhat to say when we're on calls.
(24:41):
Somehow we know how to sayeverything, but we don't know
how to talk to each other.
Yeah, um, you guys heard metalk this on here before, but
yep, go ahead it's it's uh.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
So the one thing, the difference between male and
female, obviously most of lawenforcement is it's a male
dominated profession.
Let's let's be real Most firstresponders are male dominated.
Maybe not in the EMT world itmight be more split, but it's
male dominated.
So it's harder for a female togo up to a male to say that just
because, first off, most of theguys I worked with are married
(25:13):
and I want to respect boundaries, just because, first off, most
of the guys I worked with weremarried and I want to respect
boundaries.
Um, you know, I very I had veryfew officers I would talk to
off duty, but I also knew theirwives, so like I would talk to
them too.
Um, in fact, I had a partner.
His wife was a teacher and soshe actually helped my daughter
with some school stuff andthings like that and we would
get to, I would get togetherwith her and meet at the park
(25:34):
with our kids.
So I formed those friendshipsoutside, but it was kind of a
fine line I did talk to.
I remember one in particularafter an officer involved
shooting, he basically saved akid's life.
I actually did the podcast withhim on his podcast and he-.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Name it.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Oh, fit for Duty.
And I remember Fit for Dutypodcast, duty podcast.
Yes, yes, it's for firstresponders.
Um, he's no longer incalifornia, he's in texas now.
But, um, he was in californiaand he was a cop that I worked
with day in and day out and, uh,he, I remember he got in a
shooting.
And the first thing when theycalled us in, they said I said
who was?
And they told me, you know, oh,it was gilbert.
(26:15):
It's like all right, I'm on myway in, I get into the office
and he's in the break room andI'm like, what are you doing
here?
and he's like, oh, yeah, they'retaking him to the hospital
because, he cut his hand,breaking the glass to get to
this kid and, um, I gave him abig old hug and I said did you
call your wife?
He goes no, she's sleeping.
(26:38):
I don't want to wake him up andI put my hand on his hand, his
good hand.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Call her.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
I said you need to call her because you have a
newborn baby.
If she gets up to feed the babyand the baby doesn't want to go
back to sleep because I've beenthere as a mother, she's going
to turn on the TV.
And what if she turns on thenews and he goes?
Oh I, I didn't think about that.
I said yeah.
So he called her, um, and then,like I had to go to the
(27:06):
hospital to talk to the childthat he saved, and, um, I went
and checked on him and then yeahhe's, he's a great guy, he
really and he saved that kid'slife um after interviewing that
kid.
I 100 believe he saved thatkid's life um and wow, that's a
fantastic he's a great guy andhe ended up coming into
detectives after that um and weclicked immediately like we were
(27:29):
, just we were.
We were friends from there onand we still are, and so I would
kind of check in on him alittle bit.
My buddy Tom, he was one that Ikind of tried to check in on,
but again I didn't want to crossboundaries with him because I
didn't know her super well, buthe was kind of in some trouble
(27:51):
before he committed suicide andI remember seeing him and he
would try to find where I wouldsee him at work.
I would just let him know thatI was always there.
Hey, if you ever need to talk,you ever need a few minutes, let
me know.
But again I wasn't.
It was more of that.
I think with females to a maleit's a little bit harder because
we just don't want to.
We don't want to crossboundaries but female to female.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
I haven't had recently.
I'm trying to think back anyother females that have been
affected with kind of the samesituation yet, but I have a lot
of coming from the academy sowe'll see if that kind of
increases.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah and listen.
Just don't be afraid.
I know it's hard, trust me.
I know.
I told you how I felt at it,but I know it's hard.
But if you see somebody hurting, I know it's uncomfortable.
I say this all the time.
I know it's uncomfortable to goup and say something.
You're going to beuncomfortable, but I promise you
, if you do it, theuncomfortableness of not doing
it is 10 times worse.
Just, you don't have to havethe right words.
(28:54):
Literally, people don't.
I know that from doing it everyday.
People don't need you to showup with all the answers.
They don't need you to show upwith with a pillow and a blankie
and they don't need they don'tneed that.
What they need there, and thatis they just need somebody to
show up who understands and iswilling to listen.
That's the difference willingto listen, not sit there and ask
(29:18):
questions about it and or judgethem and tell them how they
should get healing or how theyshould what treatment they
should do.
The art of being an awesomepeer is just simply checking on
one another and listening andlisten to understand.
Don't listen to to then addyour story to it.
Like listen to understand, getto know each other.
Um, you've told me to talk tothis.
(29:39):
While I was in Boston, I met apolice officer who told me um,
he had a, he had a partner as atwo minute.
They had a two man car.
He had a partner that one dayjust said hey.
I looked at him and said hey,I'm going to kill myself when I
get off work.
And he was didn't know what tosay.
He's nervous, didn't know whatto say, didn't know if he was
serious.
And when he got they got offwork, the guy went home and
(30:00):
killed himself.
And now this guy lives with it.
He's like I didn't know what tosay and he's, you know, telling
the story and he's balling.
But, um, whoa, just saysomething, just show up for each
other, would you agree, jess?
Yeah, j yeah.
Jake, would you?
Speaker 3 (30:12):
guys agree.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
You reminded me of a time when someone tried to check
on me after a call and it was a.
It was a female officer and shewas the peer support thing had
had just become a thing Like it.
Just this movement had juststarted.
And she came up to me as I wasleaving and I knew she joined
that program and I just kind ofhad this opinion of her as an
officer that like I don't know,like I just didn't see us on the
same level and she tried totalk to me and I just I had no
(30:44):
time for it, but I still, likeobviously I still remember it,
like I still I still rememberthat someone asked me and if I,
if I could now I would havetalked to her, I would have, I
would have talked to her, Iwould.
I would have said let's go out,you know, let's go sit down
somewhere and talk about it.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
But at the time it was like yeah, you don't even
know.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
You don't even know we're doing the same job.
But somehow I had this beliefthat she was different and she
didn't, couldn't understand.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yeah, yeah.
So so you see somebody herejust say something.
I mean I know, just go up, givehim a fist bump, so you're
doing.
All right, give him a hug,whatever it may be, be that
person, be that light in yourdepartment.
All right, guys, we're going towrap this up, not to put you on
the spot, but is there any lastword you guys want to say for
our listeners or some peoplelistening that might be like you
(31:29):
know what?
Maybe I should reach out forhelp, or, yeah, you know they're
in the midst of it right now.
Do it.
Uh, throw them something realquick before we leave, do it
that's I mean, I don't know howelse to describe it.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Do it, don't wait, because?
Because if you don't do it now,then when and if?
And look at where you are nowand look at where you could be
in six months.
What's the difference going tobe between asking for help now
and if you don't in six months?
What are you going to lose?
How much worse is it going toget?
Speaker 3 (32:02):
what's the?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
bottom how far down.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Can you go?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
so just do it.
Agreed 100, 100, agreed 100,just if you already feel like
you're at the bottom, this itcan either help you or it's
going to keep you the same.
So why not try?
Um, there's a lot of help outthere.
I just think that people don'tknow where to start.
I don't know out there if youguys have it, but peer support
programs are also really good.
Most, I think most agencieshave them.
Um, I know our agency does,even as small as it is.
(32:25):
But if not, go to a biggerneighboring agency, especially
the fire department.
They actually do very well withtheir peer support programs.
From what I've heard.
I've heard their peer supportprograms are amazing, probably
because they're all sowell-rested.
I know those recliners.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
I lost you guys for a little bit.
There we go.
There you are, Jake.
I missed your joke.
You said something about a fire.
I said it's probably probablybecause they're so well rested
yeah, you know what I wasactually talking to firemen
about the difference between thecops and fires, like the, the
image and the stigma with ptsd,and he's gonna explain it to me.
(33:09):
Like with officers, we show upfor work, we say hi to each
other, we get in our cars and weleave.
They live in community all thetime.
I mean, they are breaking breadtogether, they're watching TVs
together, so they live in thatcommunity where that has an
opportunity to come up a lotmore than you know, because
we're out saving the world.
They're sitting at the firedepartment waiting for no, I'm
(33:31):
just kidding.
I love all you firefighters.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Yeah we actually had a really good one.
I, one of the little ruralcities I worked in just a real
quick we.
We had a very tight knit.
We were very tight with ourfire department to where
sometimes we would bring sidesand they would cook dinner and
we'd have a big dinner.
At least once a week We'd havebig dinners out there.
So it was kind of cool.
But yeah, their, their peersupport, I heard is is a lot
(33:56):
better, um, in the sense of howthey organize it, how they run
it.
So if you're a police officeror EMT, um, I even go nurses If
you are not able to findsomething within your place, go
to the fire department.
The fire departments usuallyhave a very good peer support
program and they're amazinggreat advice, great advice yeah,
cool well, cool.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Well, thank you guys.
I hope you have a good weekend.
Jess and jake, I reallyappreciate you guys being on and
again, I'm going to have you ona lot more often.
I want to have you on to kindof help co-host, so I'm not the
one hosting it.
I want to get to a point whereI'm not even on here sometimes
and it's just y'all running it,cool, and other people.
That just where people can justcome on and record or not.
(34:37):
Just that's why it's calledshared voices.
People don't have to hear mystupid voice all the time.
But, thank you guys, listeners,we love you.
Reach out, we care for you.
I don't care if you got hired,retired or fired, we don't care.
We care about the person, wedon't care about the uniform.
(35:01):
We want to help you, we want tohelp your family, we want to
help you get healthy.
We want to get you back backliving life to the fullest and
enjoying life the way godintended.
So thanks for tuning in, reachout to our organization if you
(35:28):
need any help.
And again, uh, thank you jakeand thank you Jess.
Thanks, dan.
Or a company or your church maywant to get involved in
supporting 1042 Project'smission of equipping, restoring
and repurposing our firstresponders.
Please reach out to us at10-42projectorg.
There is a giving page on there.
We need your help.
We need your support.
If you can't get financially,please be willing to share the
(35:50):
word of our podcast, of ourorganization and the work that
God's doing.
Thank you and have a blessedweek.
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