March 15, 2024 • 54 mins
In this episode, Wai Jia Tam shares her incredible story of discovering Jesus and following Him despite facing many obstacles and setbacks along the way. Wai Jia grew up in a Buddhist home in Singapore but had a powerful encounter with God as a teenager that set her on a journey of faith. She shares about her experiences serving in Nepal as a young woman and how God provided in amazing ways. Wai Jia also walked through great difficulties like depression, an eating disorder and a major spinal surgery, but trusted God through it all. In this conversation she offers wisdom on discerning God's voice and taking small steps of obedience even when we feel too small. I know you'll be inspired by Wai Jia's story of God's faithfulness and how He can use our pain for His purposes. So join us as we discover how small steps of obedience can result in big dreams.
Wai Jia Tam is a multi-award-winning, international humanitarian, doctor, and speaker. Selected for Forbes Asia's inaugural 30 under 30 list, she has been featured in numerous international media outlets and is the founder of Kitedreams ministry and Kitesong Global. Learn more at kitedreams.org or follow her on Instagram @tamwaijia
Wai Jia's book:
Dream Brave
Wai Jia's Recommendations:
Walking with God Through Pain and Suffering
Counterfeit Gods
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Wai Jai Tam (00:00):
It's about realizing that we can have
faltering fee we cannot tiny feewe can be I feel that shaky and
wavering, but it's good we putit in the evening makes all the
difference. And I think up totoday, I still remind myself
that life changing experience inall that I do because it'd be
nice be If God could use me. ButI was so broken back then. Then
(00:24):
why should I be free? Oh, whatthe tool
Joshua Johnson (00:42):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
forget to hit the Follow buttonon your favorite podcasts app to
be notified when new episodescome out each week, and go leave
(01:05):
a rating and review. It's easy.
It only takes a second and ithelps us find new listeners to
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Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
this podcast with your friends,your family, your network? Tell
them how much you enjoy it andlet them know that they should
(01:27):
be listening as well. If you'renew here, welcome. We if you
want to dig deeper, or find uson social media at shifting
culture podcast, where I postvideo clips and quotes and
interact with all of you.
Previous guests on the show haveincluded Craig Greenfield, Jamie
Winship, and Jesse Cruickshank.
You go back listen to thoseepisodes, and more. But today's
(01:48):
guest is why she had tam why sheis a multi award winning
international humanitariandoctor and speaker. She was
selected for Forbes Asia'sinaugural 30 under 30 list has
been featured in the numerousinternational media outlets and
is the founder of kite dreamsministry and kite song global.
In this episode, while sheshares her incredible story of
(02:12):
discovering Jesus, and followinghim despite facing many
obstacles and setbacks along theway. My Shia grew up in a
Buddhist home in Singapore buthadn't a powerful encounter with
God as a teenager that set heron a journey of faith. She
shares about her experiencesserving in Nepal as a young
woman, and how God provided inamazing ways. While she also
(02:32):
walked through greatdifficulties like depression, an
eating disorder and major spinalsurgery, but trusted God through
it all. In this conversation,she offers wisdom on discerning
God's voice and taking smallsteps of obedience, even when we
feel too small. I know you'll beinspired by why she has story of
(02:54):
God's faithfulness and how hecould use our pain for his
purposes. So join us as wediscover how we can be faithful
and take small steps ofobedience. Here's my
conversation with y Shia tam iygeo Welcome to the podcasts
(03:15):
really excited to have you on.
Thank you so much for getting upearly. And joining me on the
show.
Wai Jai Tam (03:25):
Well, it is my pleasure, Joshua. It's a 30 here
in Singapore. And there's nobetter way to start today by
talking about Jesus. So I'd liketo
Joshua Johnson (03:36):
start early in the morning at 530 in the
morning to talk about your storywith Jesus. I know you grew up
in a Buddhist home. How did youfind Jesus? What was your
journey like of discovering whohe was and starting to follow
him?
Wai Jai Tam (03:51):
Wow, that is? That is a question. That's quite a
loaded question. I neverexpected to become a Christian
because growing up in a very, anenvironment with many different
kinds of gods and idols. Webelieved in all kinds of
different philosophies and, andgods and I remember we would dry
(04:14):
it up a couple of hours, almostevery year to Malaysia where we
would worship like, you know,100 foot long kind of sleeping
Buddha and it was right at thatmoment. When I was maybe when I
was 16 or so that while I waspraying on my knees in that
(04:34):
temple, I felt this stirringinside of me like a voice
telling me I am God. God I amnot here. And that was the first
time I think I felt like I had aconnection with God and that He
wasn't in the form of a statueon somebody I had to sacrifice
(04:57):
give up. Give up things for byejoysticks go through all kinds
of rituals. And that's whatbegan my journey of faith, but
nothing sealed, right thief.
Like the first time I went for amission trip. And that was when
I went by myself, I made acouple of calls to
organizations. And I asked avery seemingly like, foolish or
naive question, I would like usanywhere in the world that you
(05:20):
need a help it, I would love togo. And they said, Oh, yes,
there is a place in Nepal. Rightnow there is the Maoist
uprising. There's a lot ofpolitical instability, all
volunteers pulled out the way togo. Because the help is still
there. You know, it's tough tomeet it. And of course, I told
my very conservative,traditional Asian father about
(05:40):
it. And having had a daughterwho has never stayed out neater
than 10pm all her life. Even proprom, he said, No, are you
crazy? And I remember justtelling God like God, if you are
real, if you are real, you haveto show me right, you have to
change. And that was when Ithink began a real relationship
(06:03):
with God because I startedtalking to God I never knew. And
even then all that time, I stillfelt doubt. I kept feeling like,
God maybe are real, maybe you'renot. But I'm just going to keep
talking to you and see how thispans out. So it's kind of like a
testing water kind of thing. Andthe amazing thing was my father,
(06:25):
who has only a tiny company offive staff at the time, had one
staff who happened to know aSingaporean missionary who was
returning from Nepal forfurlough. But it's a cup of tea.
And we didn't met her. And shemanaged to convince my dad to
let me go. Yeah, so that was thebeginning, I think of my journey
(06:48):
of faith. And what happenedafter that, I think was was was
life changing. And so thatbegan, my my faith in God,
knowing that He is real. And hedoes listen to the littlest
prize of our hearts.
Joshua Johnson (07:02):
I think sometimes that's, that's the
opposite of what happens as you,you go down the journey with
faith. And I know, in the West,there's a there's a difference.
I've you know, as someone wholeads a missions organization,
myself, and we have workers allover the world, we have people
that hear from God, do what hesays, and really amazing things
(07:24):
happen because of that. And alot of times, you know, you're
probably speaking to some, somein the audience where they want
to believe that they want tosay, great things will happen
when we listen to God. But Idon't know if it can happen for
me. If you are talking tosomebody. Now, what would you
(07:46):
say about the God who is alive,that can speak to them? And that
could lead them into greaterpastures in greater places? What
would you say? For them to takea step towards seeing God like
that? Wow.
Wai Jai Tam (08:05):
Well, thanks for asking that, Joshua. Because
that was exactly how I felt as a17 year old in Nepal, feeling
overwhelmed feeling tiny, clean,like nobody. In fact, I grew up
mostly feeling depressed,awkward about myself. And it was
thought, man, you know, incollege, God of the universe,
why would he waste time with me,you know, and I remember, while
(08:28):
I was in Nepal, I just knew thatit wasn't a coincidence that we
were evicted. traumaticallyovernight. I was staying in our
children's home was like 30other girls who have been abused
and abandoned. And I got to knowthese missionary house parents,
and I was shocked to know thatevery year they would face like
an eviction from the newlandlord because there was such
(08:48):
a stigma on unwanted girls. Andit's a time when we were
evicted. i i wish i was sosharp. I didn't know what to so
we literally move the entirehome like down to the littlest
girl who three years old. Shewas picking us up in her
underwear in had to dismantleall the beds and the kitchen all
(09:11):
by ourselves. And I just lookedat the world unravel around me
and asked God like God, in yourview, you can for these girls
that would you allow me to dosomething for them. Like I had
applied to medical school, but Ihadn't heard back I had no
credentials. I didn't know anyChristian. I didn't have like a,
you know, Christian legacy whereI had a network of people
(09:32):
pastors to fall back on. I waslike, God, what am I supposed to
do? And all I just prayed wasGod if you want real, again,
testing God again, you know, forself doubt, right? Jesus, Are
you real? You know, I was like,God, you have to show me that.
You are reeling you hear ourprayers. And so all I did was
just see. God helped me to dosomething for these girls. And
(09:56):
in the next couple of days, astory a new story about A girl
and her kite, and all thepictures. So just download it in
my mind. And then you just knewI had to go back and pick them.
So when I was dropped out at theKathmandu airport with Paul, I
remember being dropped off. Andthen I ran back to the pastor's
car. And they said, Pastor Eric,I said, you know, I have this
(10:20):
idea, and it's not, but if theyif I published a little picture
book and use it to raise fundsfor a new world for the girls,
and maybe you guys want me towalk anymore. And he was like,
Yeah, of course, you have to doit, you have to believe in it.
He's like, that's what we justneed. It's a permanent home.
jasha, you wouldn't believe it.
But when I went back toSingapore, I literally was led
from one stranger to the next.
(10:43):
And before I knew it, like inthe next three months, paid,
some was published my firstpicture. And then the following
three months, like over$100,000, was raised. And in my
living room, I have this pictureof the girls here. In the end,
the same positions are 10 yearsapart. And that picture forever
(11:05):
reminds me that in spite of howlittle heartbroken how unwanted
that we are, as long as we keepquiet, the smallest price of our
heart, that God is real, and hedoes listen, reading, that's
what the dream brain is about.
Like, it's a combination of allthese experiences that I've had
with God, and God on Hebrews 11,showing us these really aims,
(11:27):
it's not about the size of howgreat your faith is. It's about
realizing that we can havealtering fee, we can not tiny
fee, we can pay a fee that shakyand wavering, but it's good, we
put it in that really makes allthe difference. And I think up
to today, I still remind myselfoff that like teaching
(11:48):
experience and all that I dobecause it reminds me of God
could use me. But I was sobroken back then that why should
I be what he can't do? Why
Joshua Johnson (12:02):
are people here that know? That is incredible.
And I have some dreams in myheart. And but I'm afraid to
take those first steps to toenact something like there is a
small cry my heart I want to seethis happen. But I don't know if
I can do that myself. Assomebody who is who is a young
(12:22):
woman there that didn't havemuch the all you really had was,
you know, your, your artistry,that you were able to paint some
pictures to get that publishedand raise $100,000 for a home.
What would be some first stepsfor people to say, A, I can
start to say yes to the dreams,my heart and follow what God has
(12:45):
for me.
Wai Jai Tam (12:47):
Wow, that's such a great question, Josh. You know,
I think when we think aboutdreaming, we always think about
dreaming big. I think it's justa standard of our culture. And
that can be so intimidating. Butwhat I really want to encourage
people to do is just to start bydreaming small. In fact, that
was the first working title ofmy book, instead of dreaming
(13:07):
brave it wet dream small. Youknow, hey, I just love the idea
of starting small becauseKingdom is so topsy turvy, you
know, the way up is actually theway down. And people look back
at like my trajectory I loveyears ago, I was deployed with
the United Nations and the WorldHealth Organization COVID-19
(13:28):
specialist Africa for a goodnumber of weeks. And when people
look at that, and they say,Well, why don't you really on
this path of like foreverdreaming big achievement,
achieving big goals, you know,like, like, how did that happen?
And I always have to remind themand say, you know how I got to
working with the W H O in theUN, it wasn't through, you know,
networking, or like striving andhustling, which I actually did
(13:51):
while I was at Johns Hopkins.
When God sent me there. That'sanother miraculous story, how
you've been quite there. Butwhen he was out, he just hustled
and I hustled culture, I'm like,I'm gonna change my own life by
climbing up my ladder, you know,and God just shut every door. In
his mercy and grace, He shut medown. So sometimes when we don't
get the dreams we want, it'sactually God's way of protecting
(14:13):
life. He doesn't want us tocarry a narrative of I can do it
all. And the world's got todepend on me. And while I was at
Johns Hopkins, he actually brokethat. All he wanted me to do was
start a little nonprofit calledcatesol. Global based on what
I've done. And you know, when Istarted that nonprofit at Johns
Hopkins, I taught the Lord Isaid, God, this is so not my
(14:34):
dream. Like, you know, it's notglamorous, like I actually came
here like when scholarships Ihad to answer to the board. And
I'm gonna go back to tell them Istarted Wyatt, like seriously.
And God just told me to justobey Him like step by step. And
so with that little nonprofit,what happened was that, of
course, I never predictedCOVID-19 will break out when he
(14:55):
came back. I didn't predict thatbecause I was away from Super
for a good number of years thatit will be so hard to fit back
into the system. Because whenthe pandemic broke up, I had no
idea what I was supposed to do.
And the I was with this processof public health, not knowing
where to fit in. And I justtalked about what happened to
those big dreams that you gaveto me. I am now overwhelmed and
(15:19):
intimidated. And even though Ihad all these credentials behind
me, it just seemed like, likewhat you said, you have this
sense of inertia. And evenreally, you feel like you know,
you know what you got to do, youjust can't. The funny thing was
10s of 1000s of low wage,migrant workers were infected
with COVID 19. And I got arequest from a mentor who said,
(15:42):
Vijay, can you just draw somehelp booklets for us because
regular workers, they are allcoming in with like, more than
eight different diverselanguages. We can't communicate
with them. It's overwhelming forthem. There's a lot of anxiety
possibly addressed. Can you justdraw some pictures and get them
translated? And graphed at anyrestaurant? I assumed fee. I
(16:04):
thought that was too small forme. And I just told God, like,
like, seriously, what did youhear me when I said I wanted to
work with the why the UN, likeit was when such a tie with
this, like, hello, I'm stillhere. And it was through thing
yesterday and the requests Myhusband was the one who reminded
(16:25):
me he's like, why Jack, I seethat look on your face. He just,
he's just like with me. He said,Look at the devotional today on
Oswald Chambers. He said, as heclaims Yes, just 910 Whatever
your hand finds to do do it withall your mind. And I just knew
it was gonna be it was adevotional for that day. And so
I started fewers. furiouslydrawing and illustrating. And
(16:50):
because I set up catesol, globalas a nonprofit, that was
actually a we had theinfrastructure to translate into
print. And to just turn thisaround in the shortest time
possible, we were able to do itbefore any of the health care
institutions or classes could dothat. And before we knew it, we
were printing 10s of 1000s ofdifferent kinds of booklets, and
(17:12):
then posters. And one day, Ijust got an email from the
chairperson of the World HealthOrganization steering committee
in Singapore. And he's like, Areyou a professional cartoonist,
because we want to hire you. SoI told you the following slides,
I'm a doctor, and he puts me incharge of like, nationwide
health communications with withmigrant worker. And it was
(17:35):
through that, that I got toworking with the World Health
Organization and the UnitedNations and then getting with
them. So when I look back, Josh,what that tells me is that when
we have big dreams down theroad, there isn't
straightforward, like we think,and it isn't about how much I
(17:56):
can do for God, but rather howmuch we are willing to humble
ourselves by Him, when He showsus those opportunities to say
yes, one baby step at a time. Somaybe we have a dream to like
endo serve orphans in adeveloping country. But are we
even willing to foster childrenin our own city? Maybe our dream
(18:20):
is to, you know, start a hugeinitiative like that nationwide.
But in the first place, are wewilling to do something small
for our community and ourchurch? And that's, that's
something I keep remindingmyself, of course, like, like,
like, I'm always enamored, rightby these glamorous, wow,
adventurous things that Goddoes. But I always remind myself
(18:42):
of a day when I was in theelevator, and her husband just
looked at me and he rolled hiseyes. And he's like, I know that
I say, No, but just remember,you know, God's watching you and
you just gotta see if it's foryou, though. So thank God for
good hesitancy. Yes,
Joshua Johnson (18:56):
yes. It's great to have somebody in your life
that could actually speak sometruth to you. So you could walk
in it. If you talk to somebodynow and say, How do I discern
the voice of God knowing thathe's telling me to do the small
step? Oftentimes, we because youknow, you're talking about big
(19:17):
dreams. We forget to do thesmall things like you're talking
about, but God is speaking hisvoice and saying, This is what I
want you to obey. How do wediscern His voice? And then say
yes to that and move forward init?
Wai Jai Tam (19:32):
Wow, that is such a great question, Josh. I I love I
love just being on this journeydiscerning God. One thing that
he's has really changed my lifeis Henry back in his book,
experiencing God and in it hetalks about how discerning God
is about understanding a coupleof things. Firstly, finding
(19:54):
alignment with your word,finding inner peace through
prayer, finding alignment ordiscernment based on through
community, and then mentors, andthen looking at circumstances
around. So I've listed aboutfive things that we can use. And
I always encourage people to usethem as sort of like a toolkit
(20:14):
from which we can we and discernhow God is speaking. Because
sometimes we can fall into theerror or like saying, Oh, wow,
just one mentor told me that, orthis one circumstance, it's so
divine, like, I met this guy insupermarket twice, he must be
the one in front of me. And no,it's not it's about using our
(20:34):
circumstances are the innerpeace that we feel are something
that we've read in the Bible,and using that to weigh against
all the other four differentpillars, as I call it. So with
these five different aspects, Ifeel like God gives us a really
good toolkit for which we cankind of weigh in and decide
these boys, because he doesspeak actively to us. So one
(20:55):
thing I have loved, of course,it makes that journey so much
more challenging. But it's alsoexciting, even as we learn to
challenge ourselves to decide.
And also want to encouragepeople to realize it's okay to
make mistakes. You know, it'sokay to discern and then realize
that, oh, my, I actually tookthat a little too, literally
from that mentor, or that friendof mine. Or maybe that advice
(21:17):
from that person wasn't so good,because I obviously missed out
something that the Bible wastrying to see. Or maybe I, I
looked too much into thecircumstances. And perhaps it
was no more than a coincidence.
And yet, even through all theseexperiences, God's grace and
(21:40):
mercy covers us. So I alwayslike to say, I always like to
think that it's okay to err onthe side of being courageous
just to take steps forward. Ifnot, we'll just be living in
fear of making a mistake.
Joshua Johnson (21:53):
I think one of the biggest things that God says
throughout the Bible is to notbe afraid, have courage, I'm
with you, in what you're doing,you know, we have when we got
married, my, my wife, sister wasable to paint a banner for us
that has a quote, the greatstories go to those who don't
give into fear. And that's whatwe have been trying to live by
(22:15):
is living into great stories,because and not giving into
fear. How can you how cansomebody now that they have
discerned God's voice andsaying, Okay, I might know what
the first step is. But how couldsomebody not given to the fear
that they have a failure, or nowthis isn't going to work out? Or
(22:37):
maybe this isn't even God'svoice? How could we step into
those great stories, and notgiven the fear?
Wai Jai Tam (22:43):
Who Georgia, you are sharing that? What it
reminds me of what my family iswalking through right now, we've
been praying over the past yearto relocate to Tanzania, in
Africa. And in the end, it'sbeen a dream, to for us to
relocate, to serve in long termmission in a developing country.
As you know, George, one of thehardest things is after you
(23:05):
decided in your heart, toactually move forward with it,
because at so many points, Ithink we want it to back out
when we face opposition, whenpeople were, you know, accusing
us of being irresponsible, orwhen you just look at your work
and how much you aren't leavingbehind or even your career, you
just feel you get cold feet. Andthen one of the things that I
(23:27):
learned growing up is peopleoften tell me like, don't tell
the public don't tell peoplebecause then when you do space,
so to speak, in Chinese, that'sa term, Julian literally means
like, you're throwing your faceaway. It's like, it's so
shameful, you know, if you ifyou if you tell someone your
dream, and then you change yourmind. So the idea is really
(23:50):
don't tell anyone keep yourdreams to yourself. I mean,
what's the big deal? Just tellGod. But one thing, I've
appreciated his community, thatword that you use Joshua, it's
so powerful, because when hefirst shared it with my husband
and human resonated, and then wedecided, You know what, we're
going to share it with somementors with some Ben, in the
(24:10):
writer on a planet, or it justbecame more and more real. And,
at the time, really want it toplow. We just felt like, you
know, what, we actually sharedour story with enough people
that it's not going to be aseasy as just flipping a switch
and just saying, Good night,we're going to wake up in the
(24:30):
morning and just stay in ourcomfort zones. It's just not
possible anymore. And so whenone thing leads to another and
you surround yourself with acommunity of people who believe
in your dream, I think thatmakes all the difference. So
this month is actually my lastone working. I couldn't believe
it like saying goodbye to myjob. The The interesting thing
(24:54):
is also that the more people youtell, the more naysayers in
opposition you're also going toget So it's one thing I have to
give people a heads up well, onone hand community is wonderful.
On the other hand, we've got tobe prepared for pushback,
because so many people told menot to quit my job, they said,
We will continue hanging on, getsome income, at least until you
(25:15):
actually move because right now,we're in this period of
uncertainty. And that that'swhat I talk about the number of
chapters of my book, Dreambrave. It's a lot of times like
that, between dreaming a dreamand actually fulfilling it are
many, many years of tension anduncertainty. And it's almost
like walking in a fog. So rightnow, our work permits in
(25:37):
Tanzania had been delayed. Thereis a big question about when
whether it will even getthrough. And here I am having
quit my job getting, you know,housing agents to look at our
house renting it out. And I'mlike, Am I crazy? But I think
about it. Yeah, as I see, youknow what? obeying God is just
(25:57):
about taking one step at a time.
Like, Psalm 118 105 tells usyour word, is a lamp to my feet,
and right into my pot, and itjust keep telling myself, you
know, what, it's just one stepat a time, one step at a time.
Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (26:13):
well, let's take one step at a time. And I think
that's really helpful to say,you know, not kind of given the
fear. And I know in your story,that you've experienced a lot of
different setbacks. And a lot ofpeople, I mean, some people are
listening to this, like, andeverything is working out for
her. This is wonderful. So buttell us some of those setbacks,
(26:35):
some things that were have beenreally difficult and how you
worked through them to continueto move towards what God has for
you.
Wai Jai Tam (26:45):
Wow. Who just shot when I was in medical school?
Wow, this is such a loadedquestion. Yeah. Talking about
trials and tribulations. I'vegot plenties. I mean, I mean,
imagine, I mean, you think, Oh,this girl is Fulbright Scholar,
she got a Hopkins or you know,she's got everything fine. And
(27:05):
then then the, like hunky dory,right? I scraped through medical
school. I almost feel Joshua,because I was supposed to be
worded for anorexia anddepression. I literally crawled
through medical school. In myfourth year, I remember thinking
(27:25):
that maybe the easy way out wasto jump off my university Da
Vinci balcony. And I just toldmyself that there is just no way
that I could graduate. And I wasa burden to everybody around me,
there was just no way out. Therewas so much guilt, because I was
already a building go by then.
And I thought to myself, How cankite song and all those
(27:46):
wonderful things have happened.
And then suddenly, I plugged itinto this abyss. And actually,
that's not uncommon, like whenGod gives you a dream, sometimes
your life can seem to spiral outof control. And sometimes
that's, that's part of spiritualwarfare. Suck times that that is
real. And when I walked throughthose dark days, I mean, we're
(28:07):
just holding on to God andasking him to make himself real
to me. And so I remember oneday, as I was praying, God gave
me a patient, or Lee speaking onthe stage to an international
audience, and I was animpairment. And I literally
laughed at myself. I like, like,I like nobody, like people find
(28:27):
it hard even to remember by me,it's such a mouthful in like, a
western context, you know? AndI'm like, Are you kidding me?
And I kid you not rush oil.
Like, about seven to eight yearslater, when I was at Hopkins, I
received a phone call from astranger who said, I just like,
would you come speak at ourconference in Nashville. And I
(28:47):
was like, what? And she was likeour conference, it's got hungry
for hope. It's about giving hopeto people who have been through
eating disorders and depression.
Looks like, you've got to bekidding me. How did you even get
my number? And she said, I got acopy of your little book, or at
(29:08):
least a rainbow. And that wasthe second book I've done. While
I was recovering from anorexia.
That little book was passed toher from a friend of hers with a
sister in law, or somebody whois the faculty member and a
colleague of my supervisor. Itwas like five degrees of
separation or something likethat. And that was how I got to
Nashville and started speaking.
(29:34):
And that showed me how God usesour pain for a purpose. Our
Stories, Our dreams areamplified when he brings us
through the depths of thevalley. And even right now, as
I'm talking to you, I feel likeI'm in a place of gratitude
because just a couple of monthsago, where I was suddenly
scheduled for spine surgery andremit so I actually have a huge
(29:57):
scar that you probably can't seeright now but the I actually had
to pull my trachea, my breathingtube apart wrong way, like the
main artery that goes to myheart. And they had to take up
part of my spine and replace itwith titanium. And I was like,
God, I'm at the peak of my liferight now in ministry in my
career and everything, like, howdid that happen? So when that
(30:19):
happened, I, I just fell intothis valley for a couple of
weeks, I stopped. I mean, I wasan itinerant speaker. I was like
speaking every other week, youknow, I was up on my feet. I
was. I was at the gym everymorning at 60. And we were at
high intensity exercise, it justwill do it disappeared. And I
(30:41):
thought to myself, like Why, oh,God, why are you doing? I felt
God speak to me about thetreasures of darkness. That in
Isaiah 4020 45, verse three,when it says, you know, God can
serve the treasures of darkness,I realized, wow, oh, God, you
know what, this is such abizarre, bewildering
overwhelming experience, I'm notgoing to waste it, I'm going to
(31:03):
mine it. So in those days ofwhere I was being hospitalized
in the intensive care unit, whenI was, you know, in excruciating
pain, I actually lost functionof my fingers, I hit limitations
in, in typing and writing, incooking, you're exercising, and
(31:24):
I had this pain that went frommy neck to my fingers. It was I,
I just felt like God was puttinghis finger on the things in my
life, which I had tied myidentity to, because you know,
my right hand is why I doeverything I love. And so God
used that situation to remind methat he cares so much more about
(31:46):
who we are, and our characters,way more than what we can ever
do for him. And so when I waslaying in bed, when I would
start going, well, I spent allchair thought preaching not
exercising, not typing, Icouldn't even read at one point,
because just looking down withher. I just knew that God was
(32:06):
doing it in our work in my life.
And, you know, after thesurgery, Josh, I wish I could
tell you like I just sprang upand out of my hospital chair.
And the funny thing was, I wasconnected to other people who
had gone through the samesurgery, in the hopes that I
would get supported by the worstthing was the people I talked to
were the same surgery or worsethan me. They felt better right
(32:28):
the next day. And one of themeven told me they didn't need
physiotherapy. Whereas I had togo through almost Well, we have
physiotherapy before I couldn'tlive pain free. All that to say
that God need those 12 leads towork through those stubborn
layers of my life, that highachieving, you know, hartsel
(32:50):
striving person who just wantedto maximize everything she had
quite just find that need tounderstand that he wanted me to
work on the chakra. And so ifthat wasn't bad enough, Josh on
the 12 week mark, when I wassupposed to be resuming normal
(33:11):
activity, I suffered aphysiotherapy induced knee
injury. And when the doctor didthe MRI told me that the
physiotherapist had torn my mindbeneath. I was devastated. I
couldn't walk properly for anumber of weeks. And I just went
back to God again and said, God,this is like one storm after
(33:34):
another do you just not want usto go to tend to the idea just
why not want us to go overseaslike what is too. And one thing
that I learned is that it'sthrough the builder mind or for
storms that God gives usopportunity to see what he's
three and our character. It'sthrough all those dark times,
all I knew was that God hadnever left me. So even right
(33:57):
now, I think this week is stuck.
Last week, I was actually ableto completely paint me. And next
week, when I'm scheduled to goto the States to speak, God was
challenging me. He just showedme the story of Jonah, that you
know, Jonah was set for onedirection and he turned Jonah in
the other direction. And Iactually resonated with Jonah
(34:20):
self righteousness. I thoughtthat my dream was to go into the
mission field by this time anddo what I got to do, you know, a
comic just showing me like whiteYeah. Like, I created this book
in you. Like, did you not thinkthat I would want you to speak
about it or do something aboutit? And so, like trash, even
this whole, like book tour thingto the state was so unplanned.
(34:44):
All I did was just tell God likeI will avail myself from the
second of February to the 21st.
And if you avail anyopportunities in the States when
we that I will do it. Then whenthat happened, God just started
opening one door after anotherand it wasn't It wasn't like a
swoosh thing. It wasn't like,wow, you know, you are this hot
speaker, you're hot stuff andlike you got all this lined up
(35:05):
or in your No, no, it wasn'tlike that at all. It was like,
nobody knows me like, seriously.
I'm a nobody in the States,right? Like I really, really
nobody, like why would anybodywant to ask me to speak? And all
God wanted me to say yes to him.
So all I did was just availthose things for you. Before I
knew it, Christine chains teamasked me to go in upon it one
(35:29):
thing led to another, theyinvited me to their conference.
So I said, Okay, God, if I sayyes to this conference, I'll
know that you want me to be inCalifornia, because that's where
it was. And you wouldn't believeit. The conference timing was
between the second to the 25.
And so being the Maximizer thatI am I see God, there's a
weekend before that, or weekendafter that, you know, can you
(35:50):
help me schedule something? Andthe old me you would have just
sent out 1000 emails and say,Hello, I'm here to speak, would
you have me a conditional mindthat he just wanted me to pray
and be at breath? And rememberby then, you know, I couldn't
walk very well. You are stillrecovering from my neck pain and
my spine. And so God was justusing that to remind me not to
(36:13):
rely on my own strength, and butevery time I'd had the laptop,
every time I hit walking up onmy feet, it was already
mentioned. It was no longerallowed to do I can No, it was
like God, I have this fuel in itto the to do what I can for you.
How am I going to use it asintentionally as I can. And so
(36:35):
when speaking engagements camein, they were very caught LED. I
was asked to be a keynotespeaker at this conference at
the conference. AndI was shocked because I was
ready to say no, I was ready tohave in the States is so huge.
What were the chances that onething would line up one after
the other. The weekend beforethe conference, California, I
(36:56):
was asked to speak at L A. andthen only last week, only last
week, I addressed like two weeksshy of my trip. I'm still I
still had a couple of weekendsthat were not feel. And I was
like, Okay, go ahead. If there'snothing else I bet I'm okay with
that. The moment I had seniorpastor of another church in LA,
(37:17):
contacted me, and I was justfloored because he told me I was
like, I'm like, like, why wouldyou trust me to speak on your
pulpit? Right? And he's like,You wouldn't believe there's a
pastor in Australia, whom youdon't even know, wrote to me and
said, I needed to invite you,because you'd been in the area.
(37:39):
And I was like, this can only begone. And just just a couple of
days ago when my husband said,okay, the best way to fly back,
it's actually through Canada.
And I said, Why really, we'regonna go through your hometown,
because he's he's Canadian,Chinese Canadian. And I'm like,
that's kind of not efficient.
You know, as you can see, I'mall about efficiency, you know,
(38:00):
again, and he's like, why'd yarecord a B? There's like no
street flight from Bristol.
Anyway. So you, like, let's justgo to Canada. And it was only
after I said yes to that, thatthe largest TV station in Canada
contacted me and asked me toshort or two interviews for that
recording, that was scheduled tobe in the days that we would be
(38:25):
in Canada. So all that to saythat, you know, like Jonah, we
all have our own plans. But whenGod tells us to do something,
like he, he will make it likethat. Like, sometimes we think,
Oh God, I'm nobody, you know,added to the uninstaller it'd be
in different contexts, we willfeel like we are nobody, so it's
just the truth. Right? That'sjust the truth. So when I'm in
(38:47):
the States, I feel like wow, I'mlike a fish out of water, you
know, but God showed me throughJonah, that Jonah did not need
to be like a super qualified,like, preacher. All he said was
like one line, like, you know,for the deeds and Merola and
then, you know, the whole of thetribute for saved like, that
would literally be the caliberthat he caught one at his
(39:10):
obedience. And so to answerthat's a long answer to your
question. But sometimes, youknow, God put these setbacks in
our life. We believe we we wecaught up in the game as far as
our good and when we put ourtrust to believe that he gets
caught. And we begin toappreciate see those treasures
(39:33):
that that we would otherwisenever get to be called. Had we
not opened our eyes to see itLord, you up good. Up in the
dark.
Joshua Johnson (39:45):
Yeah, that's so good. And that's really helpful
for a lot of people saying thathe's good even in the dark, even
that, the setbacks, thedifficult things, the
depression, you know, theanorexia, everything that you've
gone through that God can startsit Use your pain for some
purpose. And he could walk youthrough that. Do you think that
(40:05):
as we're saying yes to God, andwe know that spiritual warfare
is going to take place, andthere's going to be opposition?
Is there a way for us to preparefor that? So we could walk
through it, and hold on to ouridentity as children of God and
knowing who we are as we walkthrough spiritual warfare?
Wai Jai Tam (40:24):
Well, Josh, I'm going to take a leaf from your
book, I'm going to say,community or self with courage,
and I think I got to print outsomething like that better on my
own home. Right? Because like,like, if we're going to shut
back, then we're going to bethought about but I kid me, I
kid you not like up to today, Istill get the jitters. You know,
(40:45):
before I do something, like socalled significant or God is
always that that sickness thatcomes up or that that that star
that seems to be nearby. Andwhat I found really helpful is
to have a group of friends andmentors, who I actually always
review on my on my little list.
And I see who's who is God,showing me to work with me to
(41:08):
season because people change andwe don't want to hold them bound
to us, right forever. So Ialways have to at least
constantly evolving. And it'snot a long list, but it's like a
group of five to six prayersupporters, prayer warriors,
will say, Why do you need,you're going to escape the
equation, you're moving right,or you're this, you're that I'm
going to be praying for you.
(41:29):
Because it always it's like thespine surgery, everything
unraveled, actually, shortlyafter my book manuscript was
submitted. To even thepublishing team, they were all
rallying around the printing,and saying, you know, if it's
warfare, then God, we're goingto stand in the gap. And so I
always encourage people, like,never underestimate the power of
(41:51):
community. Because even if youdon't feel like you have a
community right now, maybepeople who are listening right
now, a lot of people, maybe I'mcharged with the church, you
know, not having the study,Christian community start with
one, start with one, because somany people come to me and say,
you know, what, why don't we notlike you, we don't have like, a,
(42:13):
you know, supporting community.
But I say start with one, andfrom one becomes two. And
honestly, you don't need a lotof people, you need people who
will go deep with you, thevalley.
Joshua Johnson (42:29):
You know, one of the we have a hub in in East
Asia. And we're trying to sendChinese speakers to the rest of
the world to send them out asmissionaries. And one of the
biggest difficulties to be ableto do that, is the the parents
of people who say yes, and wantto go. Right, you know, really
(42:51):
dodgy parents? What would yousay? How would how do we get to
a place with, you know, for ussending Chinese speakers out?
And how do we deal with it withparents that are reticent to
send and let their children go?
Wai Jai Tam (43:09):
Wow, wow. jumpshot, you are asking the right person?
Because the first chapter of mybook is when a loved one say no.
Joshua Johnson (43:17):
And that's why I'm asking you.
Wai Jai Tam (43:19):
That's what I'm Oh, my goodness. That is that is so
hard, actually we are walkingthrough right now. And I have to
say, it never gets easier. Weare walking to that right now.
Because one of our very, veryclose mentors, is extremely
against us going to Tanzania.
And you know what, sometimes wegot to take that, because it's
not about somebody told me this.
(43:41):
And I think it's so true. It'snot about how many voices say
yes to you. It's not abouttaking a vote. It's not like a
poll, like oh, no, because nineout of 10 mentors, it's okay for
me to do this. So I'm going tosend out that lone voice that
really is the voice of God. Sowe can't do a poll. But what we
can do is keep taking one stepin front of the other and asking
(44:03):
God, God surely. And I think oneof the main things I have
learned is to really wrestle putourselves in that wrestling ring
with God, because it's so easyto Jessie and guardian, what you
allow me to be under thehierarchy of these parents are
mentored and therefore if theysay no, it will be no, sometimes
I think people use that as a copout. And I want to call it out.
(44:26):
Because when you know When KingHerod demanded that all the baby
boys be put to death, that themidwives did not obey Moses
parents did not obey. Was itbecause they were rebellious and
anti God? No, it was preciselybecause they loved it. So I
think we need to remember thatwhile those moments shouldn't be
(44:48):
everyday daily movements, likeif we are walking in a practice
of rebellion and defy authority,that is a problem. If we are
walking in submission on aconsistent basis, then we got to
look for those modes. moment andsay, you know, what if I just
give into the copper that, hey,you know, my parents or my
mentor just said that it's alittle dangerous. It's kind of
(45:09):
risky that I'm not going to dothat, then we lose the
opportunity to live thatadventure with God in the legacy
behind it, because look whatMoses did. So when it comes to
parents and me, okay, when itcomes to Asian culture, it is
very complicated, like, familiescan be very unmanaged. But I
(45:31):
believe even in the American,like Western context, I think
those of us, many of us willface opposition, and we'll go
around it is there is no easyway. There is a lot of
navigation that is Labtechinvolved, it's not as easy as
walking away from that mentor,as well just see, I don't care
about you. Because God is aboutrelationships. I think it's
about being tactful andsensitive, and just remaining
(45:55):
opens and say, You know what, Ireally appreciate your eyes, I
am going to take it veryseriously. And I'm going to go
back to God with ground zero.
And that's actually what we didwith recently with my knee
injury. And all three people aretelling us maybe that's not
God's will for you to go to themission field. And I all I said
was, you know what, I'm going togo back to ground zero, which
got with this, I'm not going tosay no to you, because I don't
(46:18):
want to miss out on what Godcould be speaking about. So I
always encourage people go backto ground zero, don't cop out,
wrestle with the way Jacob did,like the intensity of our
restaurants should be like whenJacob wrestled with the angel,
and said, God, I will not letyou go until you bless me until
you speak to me. And literally,I felt God put my main ring year
(46:40):
out of joint as he did withJacob because he wanted to give
me a new identity of someone whowas fully submitted and
surrendered. And I see you'reraising your eyebrows just
because you must be thinkingwell, after the spine operation
Wasn't that enough? And I askedhim certain questions too
cautious. Well, curiosity wantedto go deep. But
Joshua Johnson (47:04):
yeah, he always wants to take us deeper. And he
takes us deeper and deeper anddeeper. And there's really not,
there's also not an end to oursubmission to Him surrenders
empathy. There's not an end tohis love for us. And He wants
all of us because He loves us somuch. And he will give all have
(47:24):
him self to us, as well. Asbeautiful. If you can say to
your readers, people who readdream brave and say, Hi, I want
to put this into practice. Whatwould you want them to get out
of your book? How do you wantthem to change and live in a new
way? Because of what they haveread?
Wai Jai Tam (47:46):
Wow. Wow, thank you for asking that. Joshua. I think
the one takeaway I would lovepeople to have is to get to live
by faith, even when you feel toosmall. That is the start. I
mean, the various I think, thegreatest theme of the book, even
(48:09):
when you feel small, to dare totake that first step forward,
because they always start withthe first step. Yeah, yeah.
Joshua Johnson (48:20):
Why don't you if you could go back to your 21
year old self? What advice wouldyou give? Yeah.
Wai Jai Tam (48:26):
Oh, wow. If I could go back to the 21 year old cell.
Oh, God, that would be a verylong list. I would see this.
Everybody has baggage. Everybodyhas trauma. Don't let that hold
you back. Use that as a launchpad. Because so many people come
(48:46):
to me and tell me by Jake, youdon't understand. I'm walking to
abuse and I still might in xietyI have insomnia. I have
depression, I have an injury.
There are so many things. I amnot like you. And I always
remind myself people people askme for advice that use that as a
launch pad. Remember Josiah?
(49:10):
Remember he had to go to thepain and the prison before he
could take the palace. And Goddid not get did not use the
palace to compensate him for thebed in his life. God actually
meant all of that. Because theprison will what Joseph needed
(49:33):
to be launched into the pillar.
Yeah.
Joshua Johnson (49:38):
That's so good.
That's really really good.
Anything that you've beenreading or watching lately, you
could recommend
Wai Jai Tam (49:46):
oral titles again, I will go with my current lead
which is walking through painand suffering by Timothy Keller.
Also, while we're at it counterPete calm But by Timothy Keller
because our dreams can veryeasily become our idol, they can
very easily become something weencounter. And we serve, we
(50:11):
immerse ourselves into, thatthey can take precedence over
God. And we might not evenrealize it. It is so insidious,
but one thing can lead toanother. And so I think,
counterfeit God, it's a reallygood read, for people to discern
those idols in their lives andthe different forms that they
(50:31):
take. And walking through painand suffering. Of course, this
is a good read about how we canno Mickey those trials in our
lives that God keeps in his lap.
Joshua Johnson (50:43):
Those are great recommendations. Really, really
good. How can people go out andget your book Dream brave? And
where can people connect withyou if they want to connect with
you?
Wai Jai Tam (50:55):
I think you dot I am most active on my Instagram.
So that's at Tom YGRTMW ai dia.
I also have a website calledkite dreams dot o RG that kite
ki i t and dream dot o RG peoplecan get their book, they can pre
order on Amazon at the momentand the book will be released on
(51:18):
the 30th of January, in Americaand worldwide. You can get it
from your local bookstores, aswell as on Amazon or wherever
books I saw from the 30th ofJanuary aren't.
Joshua Johnson (51:35):
Great, well, I hope a lot of people get your
book, I really love thisconversation that you were open
that even in the setbacks andthe the hardships, the
difficulties that you have beenfaced, you said yes to God, you
took those small steps. And thenbig things started to happen. I
used to say that as a basketballcoach, I said if you do the
little things, right, big thingswill happen. And so I love that,
(51:59):
with these big dreams that wehave that we just want to start
small. We want to discern God'svoice and you did a great job of
pulling in five different waysfor us to be able to discern
God's voice, as we're hearingand we're seeing our
circumstances we have mentorsand people in our lives to be
able to do that we have alignedwith Scripture. And so thank you
(52:20):
for for walking us through that.
Thank you for for walking usthrough a place of total
surrender, and faithfulness toGod, even when you have spinal
surgery and your knee is thenmessed up and your God is is
giving you a deeper a deeperunderstanding of reliance on
him. And so I love that you wentfrom hustle into rest and that
(52:42):
God would start to work throughthe rest that you have in Him.
And knowing that he is faithful,He is there with us as he can
actually do it. So thank you forthis conversation. I really,
really loved it. So I reallywant to say, I pray that God
will move you in the directionthat he wants to move you in,
(53:06):
whether it be Tanzania, whetheryou get there or not that I just
pray that you still have thatlight at your feet, that you
could walk in his ways and say,I will do what you want God. So
thank you for this conversation.
Wai Jai Tam (53:23):
Wow, thank you, Josh. It was so much my
privilege and pleasure
It's about realizing that we can have
faltering fee we cannot tiny feewe can be I feel that shaky and
wavering, but it's good we putit in the evening makes all the
difference. And I think up totoday, I still remind myself
that life changing experience inall that I do because it'd be
nice be If God could use me. ButI was so broken back then. Then
(00:24):
why should I be free? Oh, whatthe tool
Joshua Johnson (00:42):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
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(01:05):
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It only takes a second and ithelps us find new listeners to
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Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
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them how much you enjoy it andlet them know that they should
(01:27):
be listening as well. If you'renew here, welcome. We if you
want to dig deeper, or find uson social media at shifting
culture podcast, where I postvideo clips and quotes and
interact with all of you.
Previous guests on the show haveincluded Craig Greenfield, Jamie
Winship, and Jesse Cruickshank.
You go back listen to thoseepisodes, and more. But today's
(01:48):
guest is why she had tam why sheis a multi award winning
international humanitariandoctor and speaker. She was
selected for Forbes Asia'sinaugural 30 under 30 list has
been featured in the numerousinternational media outlets and
is the founder of kite dreamsministry and kite song global.
In this episode, while sheshares her incredible story of
(02:12):
discovering Jesus, and followinghim despite facing many
obstacles and setbacks along theway. My Shia grew up in a
Buddhist home in Singapore buthadn't a powerful encounter with
God as a teenager that set heron a journey of faith. She
shares about her experiencesserving in Nepal as a young
woman, and how God provided inamazing ways. While she also
(02:32):
walked through greatdifficulties like depression, an
eating disorder and major spinalsurgery, but trusted God through
it all. In this conversation,she offers wisdom on discerning
God's voice and taking smallsteps of obedience, even when we
feel too small. I know you'll beinspired by why she has story of
(02:54):
God's faithfulness and how hecould use our pain for his
purposes. So join us as wediscover how we can be faithful
and take small steps ofobedience. Here's my
conversation with y Shia tam iygeo Welcome to the podcasts
(03:15):
really excited to have you on.
Thank you so much for getting upearly. And joining me on the
show.
Wai Jai Tam (03:25):
Well, it is my pleasure, Joshua. It's a 30 here
in Singapore. And there's nobetter way to start today by
talking about Jesus. So I'd liketo
Joshua Johnson (03:36):
start early in the morning at 530 in the
morning to talk about your storywith Jesus. I know you grew up
in a Buddhist home. How did youfind Jesus? What was your
journey like of discovering whohe was and starting to follow
him?
Wai Jai Tam (03:51):
Wow, that is? That is a question. That's quite a
loaded question. I neverexpected to become a Christian
because growing up in a very, anenvironment with many different
kinds of gods and idols. Webelieved in all kinds of
different philosophies and, andgods and I remember we would dry
(04:14):
it up a couple of hours, almostevery year to Malaysia where we
would worship like, you know,100 foot long kind of sleeping
Buddha and it was right at thatmoment. When I was maybe when I
was 16 or so that while I waspraying on my knees in that
(04:34):
temple, I felt this stirringinside of me like a voice
telling me I am God. God I amnot here. And that was the first
time I think I felt like I had aconnection with God and that He
wasn't in the form of a statueon somebody I had to sacrifice
(04:57):
give up. Give up things for byejoysticks go through all kinds
of rituals. And that's whatbegan my journey of faith, but
nothing sealed, right thief.
Like the first time I went for amission trip. And that was when
I went by myself, I made acouple of calls to
organizations. And I asked avery seemingly like, foolish or
naive question, I would like usanywhere in the world that you
(05:20):
need a help it, I would love togo. And they said, Oh, yes,
there is a place in Nepal. Rightnow there is the Maoist
uprising. There's a lot ofpolitical instability, all
volunteers pulled out the way togo. Because the help is still
there. You know, it's tough tomeet it. And of course, I told
my very conservative,traditional Asian father about
(05:40):
it. And having had a daughterwho has never stayed out neater
than 10pm all her life. Even proprom, he said, No, are you
crazy? And I remember justtelling God like God, if you are
real, if you are real, you haveto show me right, you have to
change. And that was when Ithink began a real relationship
(06:03):
with God because I startedtalking to God I never knew. And
even then all that time, I stillfelt doubt. I kept feeling like,
God maybe are real, maybe you'renot. But I'm just going to keep
talking to you and see how thispans out. So it's kind of like a
testing water kind of thing. Andthe amazing thing was my father,
(06:25):
who has only a tiny company offive staff at the time, had one
staff who happened to know aSingaporean missionary who was
returning from Nepal forfurlough. But it's a cup of tea.
And we didn't met her. And shemanaged to convince my dad to
let me go. Yeah, so that was thebeginning, I think of my journey
(06:48):
of faith. And what happenedafter that, I think was was was
life changing. And so thatbegan, my my faith in God,
knowing that He is real. And hedoes listen to the littlest
prize of our hearts.
Joshua Johnson (07:02):
I think sometimes that's, that's the
opposite of what happens as you,you go down the journey with
faith. And I know, in the West,there's a there's a difference.
I've you know, as someone wholeads a missions organization,
myself, and we have workers allover the world, we have people
that hear from God, do what hesays, and really amazing things
(07:24):
happen because of that. And alot of times, you know, you're
probably speaking to some, somein the audience where they want
to believe that they want tosay, great things will happen
when we listen to God. But Idon't know if it can happen for
me. If you are talking tosomebody. Now, what would you
(07:46):
say about the God who is alive,that can speak to them? And that
could lead them into greaterpastures in greater places? What
would you say? For them to takea step towards seeing God like
that? Wow.
Wai Jai Tam (08:05):
Well, thanks for asking that, Joshua. Because
that was exactly how I felt as a17 year old in Nepal, feeling
overwhelmed feeling tiny, clean,like nobody. In fact, I grew up
mostly feeling depressed,awkward about myself. And it was
thought, man, you know, incollege, God of the universe,
why would he waste time with me,you know, and I remember, while
(08:28):
I was in Nepal, I just knew thatit wasn't a coincidence that we
were evicted. traumaticallyovernight. I was staying in our
children's home was like 30other girls who have been abused
and abandoned. And I got to knowthese missionary house parents,
and I was shocked to know thatevery year they would face like
an eviction from the newlandlord because there was such
(08:48):
a stigma on unwanted girls. Andit's a time when we were
evicted. i i wish i was sosharp. I didn't know what to so
we literally move the entirehome like down to the littlest
girl who three years old. Shewas picking us up in her
underwear in had to dismantleall the beds and the kitchen all
(09:11):
by ourselves. And I just lookedat the world unravel around me
and asked God like God, in yourview, you can for these girls
that would you allow me to dosomething for them. Like I had
applied to medical school, but Ihadn't heard back I had no
credentials. I didn't know anyChristian. I didn't have like a,
you know, Christian legacy whereI had a network of people
(09:32):
pastors to fall back on. I waslike, God, what am I supposed to
do? And all I just prayed wasGod if you want real, again,
testing God again, you know, forself doubt, right? Jesus, Are
you real? You know, I was like,God, you have to show me that.
You are reeling you hear ourprayers. And so all I did was
just see. God helped me to dosomething for these girls. And
(09:56):
in the next couple of days, astory a new story about A girl
and her kite, and all thepictures. So just download it in
my mind. And then you just knewI had to go back and pick them.
So when I was dropped out at theKathmandu airport with Paul, I
remember being dropped off. Andthen I ran back to the pastor's
car. And they said, Pastor Eric,I said, you know, I have this
(10:20):
idea, and it's not, but if theyif I published a little picture
book and use it to raise fundsfor a new world for the girls,
and maybe you guys want me towalk anymore. And he was like,
Yeah, of course, you have to doit, you have to believe in it.
He's like, that's what we justneed. It's a permanent home.
jasha, you wouldn't believe it.
But when I went back toSingapore, I literally was led
from one stranger to the next.
(10:43):
And before I knew it, like inthe next three months, paid,
some was published my firstpicture. And then the following
three months, like over$100,000, was raised. And in my
living room, I have this pictureof the girls here. In the end,
the same positions are 10 yearsapart. And that picture forever
(11:05):
reminds me that in spite of howlittle heartbroken how unwanted
that we are, as long as we keepquiet, the smallest price of our
heart, that God is real, and hedoes listen, reading, that's
what the dream brain is about.
Like, it's a combination of allthese experiences that I've had
with God, and God on Hebrews 11,showing us these really aims,
(11:27):
it's not about the size of howgreat your faith is. It's about
realizing that we can havealtering fee, we can not tiny
fee, we can pay a fee that shakyand wavering, but it's good, we
put it in that really makes allthe difference. And I think up
to today, I still remind myselfoff that like teaching
(11:48):
experience and all that I dobecause it reminds me of God
could use me. But I was sobroken back then that why should
I be what he can't do? Why
Joshua Johnson (12:02):
are people here that know? That is incredible.
And I have some dreams in myheart. And but I'm afraid to
take those first steps to toenact something like there is a
small cry my heart I want to seethis happen. But I don't know if
I can do that myself. Assomebody who is who is a young
(12:22):
woman there that didn't havemuch the all you really had was,
you know, your, your artistry,that you were able to paint some
pictures to get that publishedand raise $100,000 for a home.
What would be some first stepsfor people to say, A, I can
start to say yes to the dreams,my heart and follow what God has
(12:45):
for me.
Wai Jai Tam (12:47):
Wow, that's such a great question, Josh. You know,
I think when we think aboutdreaming, we always think about
dreaming big. I think it's justa standard of our culture. And
that can be so intimidating. Butwhat I really want to encourage
people to do is just to start bydreaming small. In fact, that
was the first working title ofmy book, instead of dreaming
(13:07):
brave it wet dream small. Youknow, hey, I just love the idea
of starting small becauseKingdom is so topsy turvy, you
know, the way up is actually theway down. And people look back
at like my trajectory I loveyears ago, I was deployed with
the United Nations and the WorldHealth Organization COVID-19
(13:28):
specialist Africa for a goodnumber of weeks. And when people
look at that, and they say,Well, why don't you really on
this path of like foreverdreaming big achievement,
achieving big goals, you know,like, like, how did that happen?
And I always have to remind themand say, you know how I got to
working with the W H O in theUN, it wasn't through, you know,
networking, or like striving andhustling, which I actually did
(13:51):
while I was at Johns Hopkins.
When God sent me there. That'sanother miraculous story, how
you've been quite there. Butwhen he was out, he just hustled
and I hustled culture, I'm like,I'm gonna change my own life by
climbing up my ladder, you know,and God just shut every door. In
his mercy and grace, He shut medown. So sometimes when we don't
get the dreams we want, it'sactually God's way of protecting
(14:13):
life. He doesn't want us tocarry a narrative of I can do it
all. And the world's got todepend on me. And while I was at
Johns Hopkins, he actually brokethat. All he wanted me to do was
start a little nonprofit calledcatesol. Global based on what
I've done. And you know, when Istarted that nonprofit at Johns
Hopkins, I taught the Lord Isaid, God, this is so not my
(14:34):
dream. Like, you know, it's notglamorous, like I actually came
here like when scholarships Ihad to answer to the board. And
I'm gonna go back to tell them Istarted Wyatt, like seriously.
And God just told me to justobey Him like step by step. And
so with that little nonprofit,what happened was that, of
course, I never predictedCOVID-19 will break out when he
(14:55):
came back. I didn't predict thatbecause I was away from Super
for a good number of years thatit will be so hard to fit back
into the system. Because whenthe pandemic broke up, I had no
idea what I was supposed to do.
And the I was with this processof public health, not knowing
where to fit in. And I justtalked about what happened to
those big dreams that you gaveto me. I am now overwhelmed and
(15:19):
intimidated. And even though Ihad all these credentials behind
me, it just seemed like, likewhat you said, you have this
sense of inertia. And evenreally, you feel like you know,
you know what you got to do, youjust can't. The funny thing was
10s of 1000s of low wage,migrant workers were infected
with COVID 19. And I got arequest from a mentor who said,
(15:42):
Vijay, can you just draw somehelp booklets for us because
regular workers, they are allcoming in with like, more than
eight different diverselanguages. We can't communicate
with them. It's overwhelming forthem. There's a lot of anxiety
possibly addressed. Can you justdraw some pictures and get them
translated? And graphed at anyrestaurant? I assumed fee. I
(16:04):
thought that was too small forme. And I just told God, like,
like, seriously, what did youhear me when I said I wanted to
work with the why the UN, likeit was when such a tie with
this, like, hello, I'm stillhere. And it was through thing
yesterday and the requests Myhusband was the one who reminded
(16:25):
me he's like, why Jack, I seethat look on your face. He just,
he's just like with me. He said,Look at the devotional today on
Oswald Chambers. He said, as heclaims Yes, just 910 Whatever
your hand finds to do do it withall your mind. And I just knew
it was gonna be it was adevotional for that day. And so
I started fewers. furiouslydrawing and illustrating. And
(16:50):
because I set up catesol, globalas a nonprofit, that was
actually a we had theinfrastructure to translate into
print. And to just turn thisaround in the shortest time
possible, we were able to do itbefore any of the health care
institutions or classes could dothat. And before we knew it, we
were printing 10s of 1000s ofdifferent kinds of booklets, and
(17:12):
then posters. And one day, Ijust got an email from the
chairperson of the World HealthOrganization steering committee
in Singapore. And he's like, Areyou a professional cartoonist,
because we want to hire you. SoI told you the following slides,
I'm a doctor, and he puts me incharge of like, nationwide
health communications with withmigrant worker. And it was
(17:35):
through that, that I got toworking with the World Health
Organization and the UnitedNations and then getting with
them. So when I look back, Josh,what that tells me is that when
we have big dreams down theroad, there isn't
straightforward, like we think,and it isn't about how much I
(17:56):
can do for God, but rather howmuch we are willing to humble
ourselves by Him, when He showsus those opportunities to say
yes, one baby step at a time. Somaybe we have a dream to like
endo serve orphans in adeveloping country. But are we
even willing to foster childrenin our own city? Maybe our dream
(18:20):
is to, you know, start a hugeinitiative like that nationwide.
But in the first place, are wewilling to do something small
for our community and ourchurch? And that's, that's
something I keep remindingmyself, of course, like, like,
like, I'm always enamored, rightby these glamorous, wow,
adventurous things that Goddoes. But I always remind myself
(18:42):
of a day when I was in theelevator, and her husband just
looked at me and he rolled hiseyes. And he's like, I know that
I say, No, but just remember,you know, God's watching you and
you just gotta see if it's foryou, though. So thank God for
good hesitancy. Yes,
Joshua Johnson (18:56):
yes. It's great to have somebody in your life
that could actually speak sometruth to you. So you could walk
in it. If you talk to somebodynow and say, How do I discern
the voice of God knowing thathe's telling me to do the small
step? Oftentimes, we because youknow, you're talking about big
(19:17):
dreams. We forget to do thesmall things like you're talking
about, but God is speaking hisvoice and saying, This is what I
want you to obey. How do wediscern His voice? And then say
yes to that and move forward init?
Wai Jai Tam (19:32):
Wow, that is such a great question, Josh. I I love I
love just being on this journeydiscerning God. One thing that
he's has really changed my lifeis Henry back in his book,
experiencing God and in it hetalks about how discerning God
is about understanding a coupleof things. Firstly, finding
(19:54):
alignment with your word,finding inner peace through
prayer, finding alignment ordiscernment based on through
community, and then mentors, andthen looking at circumstances
around. So I've listed aboutfive things that we can use. And
I always encourage people to usethem as sort of like a toolkit
(20:14):
from which we can we and discernhow God is speaking. Because
sometimes we can fall into theerror or like saying, Oh, wow,
just one mentor told me that, orthis one circumstance, it's so
divine, like, I met this guy insupermarket twice, he must be
the one in front of me. And no,it's not it's about using our
(20:34):
circumstances are the innerpeace that we feel are something
that we've read in the Bible,and using that to weigh against
all the other four differentpillars, as I call it. So with
these five different aspects, Ifeel like God gives us a really
good toolkit for which we cankind of weigh in and decide
these boys, because he doesspeak actively to us. So one
(20:55):
thing I have loved, of course,it makes that journey so much
more challenging. But it's alsoexciting, even as we learn to
challenge ourselves to decide.
And also want to encouragepeople to realize it's okay to
make mistakes. You know, it'sokay to discern and then realize
that, oh, my, I actually tookthat a little too, literally
from that mentor, or that friendof mine. Or maybe that advice
(21:17):
from that person wasn't so good,because I obviously missed out
something that the Bible wastrying to see. Or maybe I, I
looked too much into thecircumstances. And perhaps it
was no more than a coincidence.
And yet, even through all theseexperiences, God's grace and
(21:40):
mercy covers us. So I alwayslike to say, I always like to
think that it's okay to err onthe side of being courageous
just to take steps forward. Ifnot, we'll just be living in
fear of making a mistake.
Joshua Johnson (21:53):
I think one of the biggest things that God says
throughout the Bible is to notbe afraid, have courage, I'm
with you, in what you're doing,you know, we have when we got
married, my, my wife, sister wasable to paint a banner for us
that has a quote, the greatstories go to those who don't
give into fear. And that's whatwe have been trying to live by
(22:15):
is living into great stories,because and not giving into
fear. How can you how cansomebody now that they have
discerned God's voice andsaying, Okay, I might know what
the first step is. But how couldsomebody not given to the fear
that they have a failure, or nowthis isn't going to work out? Or
(22:37):
maybe this isn't even God'svoice? How could we step into
those great stories, and notgiven the fear?
Wai Jai Tam (22:43):
Who Georgia, you are sharing that? What it
reminds me of what my family iswalking through right now, we've
been praying over the past yearto relocate to Tanzania, in
Africa. And in the end, it'sbeen a dream, to for us to
relocate, to serve in long termmission in a developing country.
As you know, George, one of thehardest things is after you
(23:05):
decided in your heart, toactually move forward with it,
because at so many points, Ithink we want it to back out
when we face opposition, whenpeople were, you know, accusing
us of being irresponsible, orwhen you just look at your work
and how much you aren't leavingbehind or even your career, you
just feel you get cold feet. Andthen one of the things that I
(23:27):
learned growing up is peopleoften tell me like, don't tell
the public don't tell peoplebecause then when you do space,
so to speak, in Chinese, that'sa term, Julian literally means
like, you're throwing your faceaway. It's like, it's so
shameful, you know, if you ifyou if you tell someone your
dream, and then you change yourmind. So the idea is really
(23:50):
don't tell anyone keep yourdreams to yourself. I mean,
what's the big deal? Just tellGod. But one thing, I've
appreciated his community, thatword that you use Joshua, it's
so powerful, because when hefirst shared it with my husband
and human resonated, and then wedecided, You know what, we're
going to share it with somementors with some Ben, in the
(24:10):
writer on a planet, or it justbecame more and more real. And,
at the time, really want it toplow. We just felt like, you
know, what, we actually sharedour story with enough people
that it's not going to be aseasy as just flipping a switch
and just saying, Good night,we're going to wake up in the
(24:30):
morning and just stay in ourcomfort zones. It's just not
possible anymore. And so whenone thing leads to another and
you surround yourself with acommunity of people who believe
in your dream, I think thatmakes all the difference. So
this month is actually my lastone working. I couldn't believe
it like saying goodbye to myjob. The The interesting thing
(24:54):
is also that the more people youtell, the more naysayers in
opposition you're also going toget So it's one thing I have to
give people a heads up well, onone hand community is wonderful.
On the other hand, we've got tobe prepared for pushback,
because so many people told menot to quit my job, they said,
We will continue hanging on, getsome income, at least until you
(25:15):
actually move because right now,we're in this period of
uncertainty. And that that'swhat I talk about the number of
chapters of my book, Dreambrave. It's a lot of times like
that, between dreaming a dreamand actually fulfilling it are
many, many years of tension anduncertainty. And it's almost
like walking in a fog. So rightnow, our work permits in
(25:37):
Tanzania had been delayed. Thereis a big question about when
whether it will even getthrough. And here I am having
quit my job getting, you know,housing agents to look at our
house renting it out. And I'mlike, Am I crazy? But I think
about it. Yeah, as I see, youknow what? obeying God is just
(25:57):
about taking one step at a time.
Like, Psalm 118 105 tells usyour word, is a lamp to my feet,
and right into my pot, and itjust keep telling myself, you
know, what, it's just one stepat a time, one step at a time.
Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (26:13):
well, let's take one step at a time. And I think
that's really helpful to say,you know, not kind of given the
fear. And I know in your story,that you've experienced a lot of
different setbacks. And a lot ofpeople, I mean, some people are
listening to this, like, andeverything is working out for
her. This is wonderful. So buttell us some of those setbacks,
(26:35):
some things that were have beenreally difficult and how you
worked through them to continueto move towards what God has for
you.
Wai Jai Tam (26:45):
Wow. Who just shot when I was in medical school?
Wow, this is such a loadedquestion. Yeah. Talking about
trials and tribulations. I'vegot plenties. I mean, I mean,
imagine, I mean, you think, Oh,this girl is Fulbright Scholar,
she got a Hopkins or you know,she's got everything fine. And
(27:05):
then then the, like hunky dory,right? I scraped through medical
school. I almost feel Joshua,because I was supposed to be
worded for anorexia anddepression. I literally crawled
through medical school. In myfourth year, I remember thinking
(27:25):
that maybe the easy way out wasto jump off my university Da
Vinci balcony. And I just toldmyself that there is just no way
that I could graduate. And I wasa burden to everybody around me,
there was just no way out. Therewas so much guilt, because I was
already a building go by then.
And I thought to myself, How cankite song and all those
(27:46):
wonderful things have happened.
And then suddenly, I plugged itinto this abyss. And actually,
that's not uncommon, like whenGod gives you a dream, sometimes
your life can seem to spiral outof control. And sometimes
that's, that's part of spiritualwarfare. Suck times that that is
real. And when I walked throughthose dark days, I mean, we're
(28:07):
just holding on to God andasking him to make himself real
to me. And so I remember oneday, as I was praying, God gave
me a patient, or Lee speaking onthe stage to an international
audience, and I was animpairment. And I literally
laughed at myself. I like, like,I like nobody, like people find
(28:27):
it hard even to remember by me,it's such a mouthful in like, a
western context, you know? AndI'm like, Are you kidding me?
And I kid you not rush oil.
Like, about seven to eight yearslater, when I was at Hopkins, I
received a phone call from astranger who said, I just like,
would you come speak at ourconference in Nashville. And I
(28:47):
was like, what? And she was likeour conference, it's got hungry
for hope. It's about giving hopeto people who have been through
eating disorders and depression.
Looks like, you've got to bekidding me. How did you even get
my number? And she said, I got acopy of your little book, or at
(29:08):
least a rainbow. And that wasthe second book I've done. While
I was recovering from anorexia.
That little book was passed toher from a friend of hers with a
sister in law, or somebody whois the faculty member and a
colleague of my supervisor. Itwas like five degrees of
separation or something likethat. And that was how I got to
Nashville and started speaking.
(29:34):
And that showed me how God usesour pain for a purpose. Our
Stories, Our dreams areamplified when he brings us
through the depths of thevalley. And even right now, as
I'm talking to you, I feel likeI'm in a place of gratitude
because just a couple of monthsago, where I was suddenly
scheduled for spine surgery andremit so I actually have a huge
(29:57):
scar that you probably can't seeright now but the I actually had
to pull my trachea, my breathingtube apart wrong way, like the
main artery that goes to myheart. And they had to take up
part of my spine and replace itwith titanium. And I was like,
God, I'm at the peak of my liferight now in ministry in my
career and everything, like, howdid that happen? So when that
(30:19):
happened, I, I just fell intothis valley for a couple of
weeks, I stopped. I mean, I wasan itinerant speaker. I was like
speaking every other week, youknow, I was up on my feet. I
was. I was at the gym everymorning at 60. And we were at
high intensity exercise, it justwill do it disappeared. And I
(30:41):
thought to myself, like Why, oh,God, why are you doing? I felt
God speak to me about thetreasures of darkness. That in
Isaiah 4020 45, verse three,when it says, you know, God can
serve the treasures of darkness,I realized, wow, oh, God, you
know what, this is such abizarre, bewildering
overwhelming experience, I'm notgoing to waste it, I'm going to
(31:03):
mine it. So in those days ofwhere I was being hospitalized
in the intensive care unit, whenI was, you know, in excruciating
pain, I actually lost functionof my fingers, I hit limitations
in, in typing and writing, incooking, you're exercising, and
(31:24):
I had this pain that went frommy neck to my fingers. It was I,
I just felt like God was puttinghis finger on the things in my
life, which I had tied myidentity to, because you know,
my right hand is why I doeverything I love. And so God
used that situation to remind methat he cares so much more about
(31:46):
who we are, and our characters,way more than what we can ever
do for him. And so when I waslaying in bed, when I would
start going, well, I spent allchair thought preaching not
exercising, not typing, Icouldn't even read at one point,
because just looking down withher. I just knew that God was
(32:06):
doing it in our work in my life.
And, you know, after thesurgery, Josh, I wish I could
tell you like I just sprang upand out of my hospital chair.
And the funny thing was, I wasconnected to other people who
had gone through the samesurgery, in the hopes that I
would get supported by the worstthing was the people I talked to
were the same surgery or worsethan me. They felt better right
(32:28):
the next day. And one of themeven told me they didn't need
physiotherapy. Whereas I had togo through almost Well, we have
physiotherapy before I couldn'tlive pain free. All that to say
that God need those 12 leads towork through those stubborn
layers of my life, that highachieving, you know, hartsel
(32:50):
striving person who just wantedto maximize everything she had
quite just find that need tounderstand that he wanted me to
work on the chakra. And so ifthat wasn't bad enough, Josh on
the 12 week mark, when I wassupposed to be resuming normal
(33:11):
activity, I suffered aphysiotherapy induced knee
injury. And when the doctor didthe MRI told me that the
physiotherapist had torn my mindbeneath. I was devastated. I
couldn't walk properly for anumber of weeks. And I just went
back to God again and said, God,this is like one storm after
(33:34):
another do you just not want usto go to tend to the idea just
why not want us to go overseaslike what is too. And one thing
that I learned is that it'sthrough the builder mind or for
storms that God gives usopportunity to see what he's
three and our character. It'sthrough all those dark times,
all I knew was that God hadnever left me. So even right
(33:57):
now, I think this week is stuck.
Last week, I was actually ableto completely paint me. And next
week, when I'm scheduled to goto the States to speak, God was
challenging me. He just showedme the story of Jonah, that you
know, Jonah was set for onedirection and he turned Jonah in
the other direction. And Iactually resonated with Jonah
(34:20):
self righteousness. I thoughtthat my dream was to go into the
mission field by this time anddo what I got to do, you know, a
comic just showing me like whiteYeah. Like, I created this book
in you. Like, did you not thinkthat I would want you to speak
about it or do something aboutit? And so, like trash, even
this whole, like book tour thingto the state was so unplanned.
(34:44):
All I did was just tell God likeI will avail myself from the
second of February to the 21st.
And if you avail anyopportunities in the States when
we that I will do it. Then whenthat happened, God just started
opening one door after anotherand it wasn't It wasn't like a
swoosh thing. It wasn't like,wow, you know, you are this hot
speaker, you're hot stuff andlike you got all this lined up
(35:05):
or in your No, no, it wasn'tlike that at all. It was like,
nobody knows me like, seriously.
I'm a nobody in the States,right? Like I really, really
nobody, like why would anybodywant to ask me to speak? And all
God wanted me to say yes to him.
So all I did was just availthose things for you. Before I
knew it, Christine chains teamasked me to go in upon it one
(35:29):
thing led to another, theyinvited me to their conference.
So I said, Okay, God, if I sayyes to this conference, I'll
know that you want me to be inCalifornia, because that's where
it was. And you wouldn't believeit. The conference timing was
between the second to the 25.
And so being the Maximizer thatI am I see God, there's a
weekend before that, or weekendafter that, you know, can you
(35:50):
help me schedule something? Andthe old me you would have just
sent out 1000 emails and say,Hello, I'm here to speak, would
you have me a conditional mindthat he just wanted me to pray
and be at breath? And rememberby then, you know, I couldn't
walk very well. You are stillrecovering from my neck pain and
my spine. And so God was justusing that to remind me not to
(36:13):
rely on my own strength, and butevery time I'd had the laptop,
every time I hit walking up onmy feet, it was already
mentioned. It was no longerallowed to do I can No, it was
like God, I have this fuel in itto the to do what I can for you.
How am I going to use it asintentionally as I can. And so
(36:35):
when speaking engagements camein, they were very caught LED. I
was asked to be a keynotespeaker at this conference at
the conference. AndI was shocked because I was
ready to say no, I was ready tohave in the States is so huge.
What were the chances that onething would line up one after
the other. The weekend beforethe conference, California, I
(36:56):
was asked to speak at L A. andthen only last week, only last
week, I addressed like two weeksshy of my trip. I'm still I
still had a couple of weekendsthat were not feel. And I was
like, Okay, go ahead. If there'snothing else I bet I'm okay with
that. The moment I had seniorpastor of another church in LA,
(37:17):
contacted me, and I was justfloored because he told me I was
like, I'm like, like, why wouldyou trust me to speak on your
pulpit? Right? And he's like,You wouldn't believe there's a
pastor in Australia, whom youdon't even know, wrote to me and
said, I needed to invite you,because you'd been in the area.
(37:39):
And I was like, this can only begone. And just just a couple of
days ago when my husband said,okay, the best way to fly back,
it's actually through Canada.
And I said, Why really, we'regonna go through your hometown,
because he's he's Canadian,Chinese Canadian. And I'm like,
that's kind of not efficient.
You know, as you can see, I'mall about efficiency, you know,
(38:00):
again, and he's like, why'd yarecord a B? There's like no
street flight from Bristol.
Anyway. So you, like, let's justgo to Canada. And it was only
after I said yes to that, thatthe largest TV station in Canada
contacted me and asked me toshort or two interviews for that
recording, that was scheduled tobe in the days that we would be
(38:25):
in Canada. So all that to saythat, you know, like Jonah, we
all have our own plans. But whenGod tells us to do something,
like he, he will make it likethat. Like, sometimes we think,
Oh God, I'm nobody, you know,added to the uninstaller it'd be
in different contexts, we willfeel like we are nobody, so it's
just the truth. Right? That'sjust the truth. So when I'm in
(38:47):
the States, I feel like wow, I'mlike a fish out of water, you
know, but God showed me throughJonah, that Jonah did not need
to be like a super qualified,like, preacher. All he said was
like one line, like, you know,for the deeds and Merola and
then, you know, the whole of thetribute for saved like, that
would literally be the caliberthat he caught one at his
(39:10):
obedience. And so to answerthat's a long answer to your
question. But sometimes, youknow, God put these setbacks in
our life. We believe we we wecaught up in the game as far as
our good and when we put ourtrust to believe that he gets
caught. And we begin toappreciate see those treasures
(39:33):
that that we would otherwisenever get to be called. Had we
not opened our eyes to see itLord, you up good. Up in the
dark.
Joshua Johnson (39:45):
Yeah, that's so good. And that's really helpful
for a lot of people saying thathe's good even in the dark, even
that, the setbacks, thedifficult things, the
depression, you know, theanorexia, everything that you've
gone through that God can startsit Use your pain for some
purpose. And he could walk youthrough that. Do you think that
(40:05):
as we're saying yes to God, andwe know that spiritual warfare
is going to take place, andthere's going to be opposition?
Is there a way for us to preparefor that? So we could walk
through it, and hold on to ouridentity as children of God and
knowing who we are as we walkthrough spiritual warfare?
Wai Jai Tam (40:24):
Well, Josh, I'm going to take a leaf from your
book, I'm going to say,community or self with courage,
and I think I got to print outsomething like that better on my
own home. Right? Because like,like, if we're going to shut
back, then we're going to bethought about but I kid me, I
kid you not like up to today, Istill get the jitters. You know,
(40:45):
before I do something, like socalled significant or God is
always that that sickness thatcomes up or that that that star
that seems to be nearby. Andwhat I found really helpful is
to have a group of friends andmentors, who I actually always
review on my on my little list.
And I see who's who is God,showing me to work with me to
(41:08):
season because people change andwe don't want to hold them bound
to us, right forever. So Ialways have to at least
constantly evolving. And it'snot a long list, but it's like a
group of five to six prayersupporters, prayer warriors,
will say, Why do you need,you're going to escape the
equation, you're moving right,or you're this, you're that I'm
going to be praying for you.
(41:29):
Because it always it's like thespine surgery, everything
unraveled, actually, shortlyafter my book manuscript was
submitted. To even thepublishing team, they were all
rallying around the printing,and saying, you know, if it's
warfare, then God, we're goingto stand in the gap. And so I
always encourage people, like,never underestimate the power of
(41:51):
community. Because even if youdon't feel like you have a
community right now, maybepeople who are listening right
now, a lot of people, maybe I'mcharged with the church, you
know, not having the study,Christian community start with
one, start with one, because somany people come to me and say,
you know, what, why don't we notlike you, we don't have like, a,
(42:13):
you know, supporting community.
But I say start with one, andfrom one becomes two. And
honestly, you don't need a lotof people, you need people who
will go deep with you, thevalley.
Joshua Johnson (42:29):
You know, one of the we have a hub in in East
Asia. And we're trying to sendChinese speakers to the rest of
the world to send them out asmissionaries. And one of the
biggest difficulties to be ableto do that, is the the parents
of people who say yes, and wantto go. Right, you know, really
(42:51):
dodgy parents? What would yousay? How would how do we get to
a place with, you know, for ussending Chinese speakers out?
And how do we deal with it withparents that are reticent to
send and let their children go?
Wai Jai Tam (43:09):
Wow, wow. jumpshot, you are asking the right person?
Because the first chapter of mybook is when a loved one say no.
Joshua Johnson (43:17):
And that's why I'm asking you.
Wai Jai Tam (43:19):
That's what I'm Oh, my goodness. That is that is so
hard, actually we are walkingthrough right now. And I have to
say, it never gets easier. Weare walking to that right now.
Because one of our very, veryclose mentors, is extremely
against us going to Tanzania.
And you know what, sometimes wegot to take that, because it's
not about somebody told me this.
(43:41):
And I think it's so true. It'snot about how many voices say
yes to you. It's not abouttaking a vote. It's not like a
poll, like oh, no, because nineout of 10 mentors, it's okay for
me to do this. So I'm going tosend out that lone voice that
really is the voice of God. Sowe can't do a poll. But what we
can do is keep taking one stepin front of the other and asking
(44:03):
God, God surely. And I think oneof the main things I have
learned is to really wrestle putourselves in that wrestling ring
with God, because it's so easyto Jessie and guardian, what you
allow me to be under thehierarchy of these parents are
mentored and therefore if theysay no, it will be no, sometimes
I think people use that as a copout. And I want to call it out.
(44:26):
Because when you know When KingHerod demanded that all the baby
boys be put to death, that themidwives did not obey Moses
parents did not obey. Was itbecause they were rebellious and
anti God? No, it was preciselybecause they loved it. So I
think we need to remember thatwhile those moments shouldn't be
(44:48):
everyday daily movements, likeif we are walking in a practice
of rebellion and defy authority,that is a problem. If we are
walking in submission on aconsistent basis, then we got to
look for those modes. moment andsay, you know, what if I just
give into the copper that, hey,you know, my parents or my
mentor just said that it's alittle dangerous. It's kind of
(45:09):
risky that I'm not going to dothat, then we lose the
opportunity to live thatadventure with God in the legacy
behind it, because look whatMoses did. So when it comes to
parents and me, okay, when itcomes to Asian culture, it is
very complicated, like, familiescan be very unmanaged. But I
(45:31):
believe even in the American,like Western context, I think
those of us, many of us willface opposition, and we'll go
around it is there is no easyway. There is a lot of
navigation that is Labtechinvolved, it's not as easy as
walking away from that mentor,as well just see, I don't care
about you. Because God is aboutrelationships. I think it's
about being tactful andsensitive, and just remaining
(45:55):
opens and say, You know what, Ireally appreciate your eyes, I
am going to take it veryseriously. And I'm going to go
back to God with ground zero.
And that's actually what we didwith recently with my knee
injury. And all three people aretelling us maybe that's not
God's will for you to go to themission field. And I all I said
was, you know what, I'm going togo back to ground zero, which
got with this, I'm not going tosay no to you, because I don't
(46:18):
want to miss out on what Godcould be speaking about. So I
always encourage people go backto ground zero, don't cop out,
wrestle with the way Jacob did,like the intensity of our
restaurants should be like whenJacob wrestled with the angel,
and said, God, I will not letyou go until you bless me until
you speak to me. And literally,I felt God put my main ring year
(46:40):
out of joint as he did withJacob because he wanted to give
me a new identity of someone whowas fully submitted and
surrendered. And I see you'reraising your eyebrows just
because you must be thinkingwell, after the spine operation
Wasn't that enough? And I askedhim certain questions too
cautious. Well, curiosity wantedto go deep. But
Joshua Johnson (47:04):
yeah, he always wants to take us deeper. And he
takes us deeper and deeper anddeeper. And there's really not,
there's also not an end to oursubmission to Him surrenders
empathy. There's not an end tohis love for us. And He wants
all of us because He loves us somuch. And he will give all have
(47:24):
him self to us, as well. Asbeautiful. If you can say to
your readers, people who readdream brave and say, Hi, I want
to put this into practice. Whatwould you want them to get out
of your book? How do you wantthem to change and live in a new
way? Because of what they haveread?
Wai Jai Tam (47:46):
Wow. Wow, thank you for asking that. Joshua. I think
the one takeaway I would lovepeople to have is to get to live
by faith, even when you feel toosmall. That is the start. I
mean, the various I think, thegreatest theme of the book, even
(48:09):
when you feel small, to dare totake that first step forward,
because they always start withthe first step. Yeah, yeah.
Joshua Johnson (48:20):
Why don't you if you could go back to your 21
year old self? What advice wouldyou give? Yeah.
Wai Jai Tam (48:26):
Oh, wow. If I could go back to the 21 year old cell.
Oh, God, that would be a verylong list. I would see this.
Everybody has baggage. Everybodyhas trauma. Don't let that hold
you back. Use that as a launchpad. Because so many people come
(48:46):
to me and tell me by Jake, youdon't understand. I'm walking to
abuse and I still might in xietyI have insomnia. I have
depression, I have an injury.
There are so many things. I amnot like you. And I always
remind myself people people askme for advice that use that as a
launch pad. Remember Josiah?
(49:10):
Remember he had to go to thepain and the prison before he
could take the palace. And Goddid not get did not use the
palace to compensate him for thebed in his life. God actually
meant all of that. Because theprison will what Joseph needed
(49:33):
to be launched into the pillar.
Yeah.
Joshua Johnson (49:38):
That's so good.
That's really really good.
Anything that you've beenreading or watching lately, you
could recommend
Wai Jai Tam (49:46):
oral titles again, I will go with my current lead
which is walking through painand suffering by Timothy Keller.
Also, while we're at it counterPete calm But by Timothy Keller
because our dreams can veryeasily become our idol, they can
very easily become something weencounter. And we serve, we
(50:11):
immerse ourselves into, thatthey can take precedence over
God. And we might not evenrealize it. It is so insidious,
but one thing can lead toanother. And so I think,
counterfeit God, it's a reallygood read, for people to discern
those idols in their lives andthe different forms that they
(50:31):
take. And walking through painand suffering. Of course, this
is a good read about how we canno Mickey those trials in our
lives that God keeps in his lap.
Joshua Johnson (50:43):
Those are great recommendations. Really, really
good. How can people go out andget your book Dream brave? And
where can people connect withyou if they want to connect with
you?
Wai Jai Tam (50:55):
I think you dot I am most active on my Instagram.
So that's at Tom YGRTMW ai dia.
I also have a website calledkite dreams dot o RG that kite
ki i t and dream dot o RG peoplecan get their book, they can pre
order on Amazon at the momentand the book will be released on
(51:18):
the 30th of January, in Americaand worldwide. You can get it
from your local bookstores, aswell as on Amazon or wherever
books I saw from the 30th ofJanuary aren't.
Joshua Johnson (51:35):
Great, well, I hope a lot of people get your
book, I really love thisconversation that you were open
that even in the setbacks andthe the hardships, the
difficulties that you have beenfaced, you said yes to God, you
took those small steps. And thenbig things started to happen. I
used to say that as a basketballcoach, I said if you do the
little things, right, big thingswill happen. And so I love that,
(51:59):
with these big dreams that wehave that we just want to start
small. We want to discern God'svoice and you did a great job of
pulling in five different waysfor us to be able to discern
God's voice, as we're hearingand we're seeing our
circumstances we have mentorsand people in our lives to be
able to do that we have alignedwith Scripture. And so thank you
(52:20):
for for walking us through that.
Thank you for for walking usthrough a place of total
surrender, and faithfulness toGod, even when you have spinal
surgery and your knee is thenmessed up and your God is is
giving you a deeper a deeperunderstanding of reliance on
him. And so I love that you wentfrom hustle into rest and that
(52:42):
God would start to work throughthe rest that you have in Him.
And knowing that he is faithful,He is there with us as he can
actually do it. So thank you forthis conversation. I really,
really loved it. So I reallywant to say, I pray that God
will move you in the directionthat he wants to move you in,
(53:06):
whether it be Tanzania, whetheryou get there or not that I just
pray that you still have thatlight at your feet, that you
could walk in his ways and say,I will do what you want God. So
thank you for this conversation.
Wai Jai Tam (53:23):
Wow, thank you, Josh. It was so much my
privilege and pleasure
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