March 19, 2024 • 54 mins
In this episode, Irwyn Ince and I talk about hope in the context of race, oppression, community, and lament. He inspires us to persevere in hope through difficult times. We explore the roots of hope in Christ despite past rejections, detangling oppressive actions from the gospel message, and the importance of fixing one's gaze on Jesus and enduring through suffering by looking to his example. So join us as we actively push against narratives of division by demonstrating a third way of Jesus and regularly check where we are placing our hope.
Irwyn Ince is the coordinator of Mission to North America, part of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA). Formerly, he was a pastor at Grace DC Presbyterian Church. He is also the author of The Beautiful Community. In 2018, Ince was unanimously elected as the forty-sixth Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) General Assembly moderator—the first African American to hold the position.
Ince is a graduate of City College of New York, Reformed Theological Seminary, and holds a DMin from Covenant Theological Seminary. He and his wife, Kim, have been married for thirty-two years and have four children and two grandchildren.
Irwyn's Book:
Hope Ain't a Hustle
Irwyn's Recommendation:
King: A Life
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Irwyn Ince (00:00):
You're surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses,
all of these faithful ones.
You've got more information thanthen they were faithful to the
end. Before Jesus came, you lookback, Jesus has come. So you got
this great cloud of witnesses.
So here's the practical workChapter is the practical
(00:20):
application in chapter 12,right? Therefore, let's lay
aside every weight and the sinthat clings so closely. And
let's run with endurance therace that's been set before us,
right? Looking to Jesus, theauthor and perfecter of our
faith, who for the joy that wasset before Him endured the
(00:40):
cross, despising the shame, andis seated at the right hand of
God. And here's, here's the takehome for me. When he says,
Consider him who endured suchhostility from sinners against
himself. He says, so that youmay not grow weary or
(01:00):
fainthearted. It is your meansof indirect JESUS IS is your
means of endurance.
Joshua Johnson (01:21):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
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(01:44):
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It only takes a second and ithelps us find new listeners to
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well. If you're new here,welcome. If you want to dig
(02:05):
deeper find us on social mediaat shifting culture podcast
where I post video clips andquotes and interact with all of
you. Previous guests on the showhave included Steve Ballmer
predator, Benjamin Windell, andJustin Bailey. You can go back
and listen to those episodes andmore. But today's guest is Erwin
ants. Irwin is the coordinatorof mission to North America part
(02:26):
of the Presbyterian Church inAmerica. Formerly he was a
pastor at Grace DC Pres. He isalso the author of the beautiful
community in 2018 and wasunanimously elected as the 46th
Presbyterian Church in AmericaGeneral Assembly moderator, the
first African American to holdthe position. Irwin Ensign I
(02:46):
talk about hope in the contextof race, oppression community
and lament. He inspires us topersevere and hope through
difficult times. We explore theroots of hope and Christ despite
past rejections, detanglingimpressive actions from the
gospel message and theimportance of fixing one's gaze
on Jesus enduring throughsuffering by looking to his
(03:08):
example. So join us as weactively push against narratives
of division by demonstrating athird way of Jesus and regularly
check where we are placing ourhope. Here is my conversation
with Erwin ince Erwin, welcometo shifting culture. Thank you
so much for joining me reallyexcited to have you.
Irwyn Ince (03:30):
Yes. Good to be with you, Joshua. Good to be with you
this morning. Thanks for theinvitation.
Joshua Johnson (03:34):
Yeah, I'd love to have a little bit of an
introduction to you through thelens of hope. Since we're
talking about hope, today. Wherehave you found hope, in Jesus in
your own life? And where weresome of those those big moments
that you needed to hold on tohope? Great
Irwyn Ince (03:53):
question. I mean, you know, there are I will start
this where, where I lost hope inJesus. First, in my younger
days, when I literally forsookthe faith. I was raised in a
Christian home, but I, by thetime I got to college, became
(04:15):
very hostile towards theChristian faith, I was immersed
at the time in what was calledthe afro centric movement and
began to view Christian faith asan oppressive religion, the
white man's religion a tool usedto enslave people of African
descent here in the UnitedStates and other places and, and
(04:38):
and any sense of hope. So myhope then became in the ability
for or ability of black peopleto to fight for what I saw as
their just rights and due rightto so hope you in ourselves,
(05:01):
which is a failing venture, youknow, and so and so when the
Lord, I use this language whenwhen Jesus rejected my rejection
of him and want me to himself, Ibegan to see life through the
lens of His word began to seeoh, there, there are
(05:21):
expectations that I had. Thatactually, the story, the African
American story is one that hasvery rich gospel roots at the
center of it. That a peoplehaving a hopefulness through
enslavement and oppression,segregation, and Jim Crow, those
(05:44):
are the set, those are theshoulders I'm standing on, even,
even now. And so. So that's,that's one, you know, not small
thing, but major aspect of whenmy hope was, came alive, my
faith and my hope in Christ camealive, to see Oh, ye is actually
the Lord has actually broughtpeople through immense suffering
(06:10):
and pain. And given them a senseof His love and glory and
goodness to persevere.
Joshua Johnson (06:18):
I was just listening this morning to
theologian, college professorwho has his students read and
listen to black spirituals,while they are studying the book
of Exodus of and parallels theactual of the slaves and how
they started to find hope, andgods, that there is something
(06:39):
better than what we're enslaved.
And there has to be some, somegood news. And and so to
parallel the Exodus story, inthe Old Testament, that, that
God is bringing the Israelitesout of slavery into new life and
the promised lands and theprayer that was happening at
that time. How did you start todetangle the difference between
(07:03):
yet yes, there are horribleoppressions that Christian white
Christians have done to AfricanAmericans. And but that's not
the gospel. So how did you startto detangle those threads?
Irwyn Ince (07:21):
Yeah, that's, that's an important question. It's it
is, it's important to recognizethat the Christian faith doesn't
have its in Europe have had,that the Savior of the world, in
His incarnation was a pennis.
Palestinian Jewish man. Yes,that matters. But not because he
(07:44):
wasn't white matters, becausethe language that the scriptures
uses from beginning to end, Godhas a plan of redemption, and
the reunion of humanity in hisson, that is global in its
scope, that is not possession ofa particular ethnic, or cultural
(08:07):
group or racial group, that heis literally the Savior of the
world. And so beginning toappreciate those aspects of my
own story, how it is rooted, orhow it is tied to God's global
story of redemption, inparticular ways so I can look at
(08:30):
my own familial history I can, Ican look at how my parents came
to faith in Christ, both peopleof African descent, my father
from the Caribbean, and mother,North Carolina, and how God in
his sovereignty, how the sin ofhumanity, the depravity of
humanity, that that is seen inpeople group, oppressing other
(08:57):
people groups, that that is notenough to throw God off of his
course and plan for redeemingpeople. So not even enslavement
will stop the Lord's redemptionprogram. Right and, and to be
able to say, to separate whatpeople the way that to more
(09:18):
thing they'll say is the waythat humanity has a propensity
towards syncretistic religion,to marry our cultural
preferences and proclivitieswith biblical a gospel truth and
(09:42):
package them together andsaying, This is what
faithfulness looks like. And,and the ability to say no, no,
no, no, no. The Gospel alwaysmanifests itself in cultural
context that cannot not do that,right. But the ABA, the ability
(10:02):
to see oh, how the Gospel comesin and calls out the sinful
practices of a culture, all atthe same time, renewing beauty,
the beauty of it in the senseof, we're all image bearers so
that beauty is going to come outin a cultural context, and to
(10:25):
not make one culturalexpression, the full picture of
what faithfulness to Christlooks like.
Joshua Johnson (10:37):
You know, I know that there is there's been a a
difference, and really thetheology of the black Caribbean
people and to the AfricanAmerican church, there is a
subtle difference between thetwo. Have you seen that and your
own family? And what did youlearn from? Both? Both sides?
Irwyn Ince (10:57):
Yeah. Well, sure, there surely is a difference in
this sense. Your father's fromTrinidad, originally, and
Joshua Johnson (11:08):
Trinidad is an interesting place, isn't it?
There are so many differentcultures. I've had a few times
and it's really, really aninteresting place.
Irwyn Ince (11:16):
Yes. And so in the in the Trinity, I didn't context
Yes, there was slavery, right.
Africans were enslaved. AndIndians from India were brought
over as indentured servants.
When Trinidad gets itsindependence, you actually have
(11:38):
the reality of, of white peoplebeing the minority in the
nation. So it's a differentdynamic when your faith is lived
out, in a context, that is notone of oppression and
segregation, and Jim Crow, wherethere still now there are still
challenges in resisting thedivide between those of African
(12:04):
descent and those of Indiandescent in the church. Right.
There's still that, but butthat's not a case of oppressor
and oppressed relationship.
Whereas in the context of in theAfrican American context, the
storyline of, of injustice runsthrough the Civil Rights era,
(12:25):
you know, in many ways into ourcurrent reality. So it's, it's
not past it is not, you know,oh, generations ago. Right. It's
still present. wrestle you.
That's why you talked about thespiritual, that those spirituals
burst out of an experience in adepressive experience. Right?
(12:50):
And so yes, they are so so youdon't have in the context of
when I go to Trinidad, I don'trecall singing spirituals in the
worship. You know, it's, it'sjust, it's just not part of that
tradition.
Joshua Johnson (13:09):
I think that's that's just an interesting
dynamic has grown up and thenstarting to move into this the
afro centric movement and tryingto to talk about the oppressors,
and then starting to detanglewhat is gospel? What is faith?
And what is the, you know, thehuman oppressor? And it's, you
(13:31):
know, an interesting coming froma lot of different nations,
ethnic groups coming fromdifferent perspectives. And I
think that's why, you know, asyou said, Jesus is the hope of
the whole world. And for everypeople group, and I, you know,
it's really difficult when we'rein these hard situations, were
(13:54):
being oppressed, or there's, youknow, hard things that are
happening, to hold on to hope.
I, I'm in Kansas City, two daysago, Superbowl parade, we had a
shooting. Two juveniles are incustody that they were
perpetrators, they decided toshoot some people, one person is
dead. eight kids have been shotand in the hospital. It's
(14:19):
something where, man, I thinkwhat happens is this. I mean, my
wife this morning, told me, youknow, I am feeling really down.
And I think it started when Iheard about the shooting of the
parade. And so what I thinkhappens is that when we're in
(14:39):
these situations of saying, Iwant to see justice prevail, and
I really want to see the kingdomof God on earth as it is in
heaven. But then we get intocircumstances like okay, it is
we're far from that. So youstart to say, I'm afraid to
engage because doesn't doanything. And I think then fear
(15:00):
then leads to depression ofsaying, nothing's going to work.
There is no hope in thesituation. I can't get involved.
How can we, in thosecircumstances, step into this
place a faith and hope andcontinue to persevere? Yes.
Irwyn Ince (15:22):
Why? You've you hid the use of a key word there.
Fear. We were faced with thereality, the depravity, death,
on the things that are threatsto our ability to hold on to
hope. And this is, this isnormal. This is normal for the
(15:48):
life of faith in Christ. It isnot an abnormality for us to
experience, the the difficulty,the tragedy, the depravity of
life in a way that threatens ourability to remain hopeful,
hopeful, in the, in the promisesthat God has me, not hope in an
(16:12):
abstract way. But hope for whatJesus has said will come to pass
will come to pass. And so how dowe do it? I think there are a
couple of things to, to reallyhold on to. So write the letter
to the Hebrews. That's that'sthe challenge that the
congregation knows. He those whoreceived this word of
(16:33):
exhortation are are facing, theyare suffering, they're facing
persecution, for their faith inJesus Christ, they're being
tempted to drift away, they'rebeing tempted to make
compromises to the faith,they're wondering, is it worth
it is following Jesus. Andtheir, their pastor uses that
(16:55):
language of fear. In the secondchapter, when he talks about the
Incarnation, he said that Jesushad to be made like us in every
respect. All right. So that hesaid, through death, he might
destroy the one who had thepower of death, that is the
(17:15):
devil, and deliver those whowere subject to lifelong fear of
death, who deliver those who areenslaved to the fear of death.
Jesus, what Jesus came to freeus from was our enslavement to
fear of death. That's a veryreal thing. So when we talk
(17:38):
about the things, I mean, youtalk about the shooting this
death, literal death. But everytime we see the impact of human
sinfulness, there's a reality ofdeath involved. There is this
loss of faith, that things arenot the way they ought to be,
that there's not the justice andrighteousness in the land. And
(18:03):
so, so the response is a twofold responses, just like what
the writer to the Hebrews does,is the first thing he does, he
fixes their gaze on Jesus, he ishe is going to exhort them to
persevere in the faith II,throughout the throughout the
letter, endure, you have need ofendures. But he starts soon
(18:26):
there. He starts his word tothem by saying, Look at Jesus,
he, he's the radiance of theglory of God, the exact
representation of his nature. Heupholds the universe, by the
Word of His power, he madepurification for sins and sat
down at the right hand of theMajesty on high. Like, this is
(18:49):
who your God is. So your gazeYeah, is fixed horizontally on
all of the issues. But but youhave to also have a vertical
gaze, and who your Lord isbecause he actually endured far
worse than what you're enduring.
Several times. He says inchapter five, that Jesus well in
chapter two, right, it wasfitting for God to make the
(19:10):
founder of their salvationperfect through suffering.
Chapter Five, Jesus learnedobedience through what He
suffered. Chapter 12 Considerhim who endured such hostility
from sinners against himself, sothat you may not grow weary or
fainthearted. Look to Jesus,look to Jesus, look to Jesus and
(19:31):
do that also buy your life withone another. So it's not the the
holding on to hope thepersevering is not just me, a
rugged, individualistic, like, Ibelieve in Jesus, I'm going to
hold on to hope I would havefixed my gaze on Jesus. Is it
No, no, we do it together as Hispeople, we actually help one
(19:53):
another. That's part of themajor emphasis in validity.
Right exhort one another everyday, as long as it is called
today, I see to it that, thatyou do not neglect to meet
together as is the habit of somethis is a, it is a horizontal
communion, the holding on tohope is done in community. It's
(20:14):
not me as an isolated,individual Christian.
Joshua Johnson (20:21):
So if you say exhorts, or encouraged, so to
give somebody courage to, youknow, that's what, what God is
saying, over and over, you know,my lifelong verse that I had to
give to my son when he wasafraid to step into school was
Joshua one, nine, have notcommanded you be strong and
courageous. Do not be afraid,you know, the Lord your God will
(20:42):
be with you wherever you go. Andso that was that encouragement
to me from a from the book ofJoshua, to me, Joshua, and I
hold on to that, like, beencouraged, have courage, how do
we in community give courage toeach other? When fear creeps in?
Irwyn Ince (21:07):
In this way, I'm gonna take my cues again, I can
go several places willing totake my cues, from the Letter to
the Hebrews, because there's somuch there, around this
corporate life together, thisreality that we, as God's people
(21:28):
share in a heavenly calling. Wehave a responsibility, God given
responsibility for thisexhortation as sometimes, right.
Sometimes it can be the wholecommunity that is having to
endure through a fearful timeand experience in context. And
(21:50):
very often you will find, andI've, I've found this, that
literally being together withother brothers and sisters, who
have this shared experience, anda shared fear, find the courage
in that shared experience,meaning, we know who we belong
(22:11):
to, and we know it collectivelyand together and we know that
there is therefore strength.
When we when we stay incommunion, in connection with
one another. When we are cryingout to the Lord, when we are
praying together. When we arewhen we are laying our hearts
bare. Before God together, let'sgo back to the Negro spirituals
(22:33):
that you referenced earlier.
Those who are burst out of outof a community, it's a wonderful
thing. You can't attribute the,you know, author's name to a
negro spiritual, his this waspenned by such and such. You
(22:55):
don't know who it who it is. Itliterally is a communal soul.
You know, nobody knows thetrouble. I see. Nobody knows my
sorrow. Nobody knows thetrouble. I see. Nobody knows but
Jesus, that spiritual singing ittogether in community, it's a
(23:15):
lament. And it's a confession.
Jesus knows our sorrows. Heknows our troubles. So he's our
hope. And so you find this, youfind that strength in community,
even when the shared experiencesis a harsh word. Right? That
that we remind each othertogether, of who we are in
(23:36):
Jesus, and who he is and andwhat we have in him. The power
of His Spirit to endure, is itis indispensable for our ability
to hold on
Joshua Johnson (23:52):
to all. Yeah, I think what you said there,
lament is really important tolament together. I've lived in
other countries have done donemissions, I send missionaries,
we tried to have incarnationalministry work and to different
cities and communities in theStates and all over the world.
(24:13):
And what does that look like forsomebody like me that has moved
into the neighborhood? So say,I'm an outsider, how do I go as
an outsider and laments with thepeople of that community? When
tragedy strikes, and they'retrying to hold on to hope? How
(24:34):
can I not just put on false hopefor for other people, but
actually engage in the lamentand the sorrow of the community?
If I come in as an outsider,there's just
Irwyn Ince (24:50):
a need for a for a humility to enter in as a
learner. In that, thosecontexts, I don't enter into a
context like that, with even anoffering of let me help, you
know, I sit in the dust and weepwith those who are weeping and
(25:12):
mourn the brokenness, and, andnot, you know, not try to not
try to be like Job's friendwho's who friends of who, right
who blew it. So as they opentheir mouths, right, let's fix
this, let me let me fix this foryou. Like sometimes the reality
(25:33):
is, we have to sit in the wehave to sit in the grief, you
got to sit in the grief, and nottry to fix the grief, especially
if I am new to a community acontext, I don't know, half of
what I need to know, to be Idon't even know how to offer
(25:57):
light in that. You know, ittakes time to actually be
welcomed in to be able to offera word of encouragement and
hope. And you know, we knowthis. When people are grieving
and mourning, sometimes the bestthing we can do is just sit and
say nothing and be in grief andnot be uneasy with our inability
(26:22):
to fix anything. You know, whatPastor, friend of mine in his
sermon is, I don't even rememberthe text he was preaching for.
Never resist, you know,sometimes the most godly thing
we can do with our mouths iskeep it shut. I think that
there's a skill, in a sense inlearning how to lament well,
(26:44):
like that. grief, pain, so it'snot comfortable. We know
intuitively as Christians, thehope of the gospel, we know the
promises that are sure and true.
We know the promises ofredemption, of new life, of
reconciliation, of, of renewal,of reunion of fixing, that
(27:05):
what's broken, that there is aday coming of no more mourning,
no more tears, no more pain offormer things will have passed
away. We know it is as sure asnight follows day. And the and
that awareness should give usthe ability to sit in the pain
without trying to have to movepeople to that the ability to
(27:29):
sit in the pain and and allowthat grief to be very present
with people and be prayerfulabout how to serve other image
bearers in in that situation.
Joshua Johnson (27:53):
Yeah, so if I'm an outsider, I'm a listener. I'm
a learner, I sit, I can shut mymouth, then God can move. On I'm
just thinking of circumstancesin my own life where I've had to
shut my mouth and just sit andweep with those that were were
(28:13):
weeping and mourn with thosethat were morning, thinking
about my context here in KansasCity. After the shooting, if
we're going to lament and besorrow, sorrowful, and walk with
this together, that the cityitself is not unified right now.
Like there's the To be honest,though, the there is a white
(28:37):
church and an African Americanchurch in Kansas City, you know,
and it stems all the way throughredlining. And there's specific
neighborhoods that aresegregated. And even today,
after all those years, when wegot rid of that, it's still like
that, in a city where there isdivision, but we want unity. And
(29:02):
we want to come together to tolament, how do we how do we do
that? And in a place where somepeople know each other, but not
very many people know eachother. So walk into it, is there
a good way to start?
Irwyn Ince (29:20):
This is an important question because what you're
describing is not unusual. Me,me US context, at least, I
believe the world is alwaysgoing to be putting a kind of
burden for gospel unity on thehearts of his people. And
(29:41):
finding those people even ifit's few in number, through
relationships that we have tosay, Okay, we we want to pray
together. Right? Like we we wantto, we want to demonstrate our
unity In Christ, in response tothis tragedy and our division,
(30:06):
and we want to pray together, wewant to come together and commit
to that. Finding those folks,even if it's a few a number, and
believing that as if we startsomething like that, that the
Lord may be pleased to grow it,we want to quickly respond, we
want to say, Okay, we got to, wegot to quickly respond to this
(30:29):
pain in this tragic, we got todemonstrate a unity, we've got
to, we've got to move towardhealing. But, but the division
didn't happen quickly. Sosometimes, it's to say, Okay,
here's, we may want to make abig statement in a, in a
significant response to this asGod's people in this place. But
(30:54):
that may not be the mostfeasible response for us to
have, if it's not genuine. Ifit's something we're
manufacturing, we say, well, howdo we build over the long term?
How do we build over the longterm, a commitment to share to
shared prayer and life as God'speople in this city? For the
(31:19):
good of our neighbors like tosay, how do we do that, that
that something we think, willbear fruit can bear fruit over
the long term, instead of onlythinking, Oh, we got to respond
to this tragedy, we have to havea show. We have to put something
forward to demonstrate ahopefulness to the community. So
I'm not dismissing that. And itmay be that that can that that
(31:45):
can happen. But that's not thething that makes long change
over the course of time. Right?
That's the response to anincident. And there will be more
incidents, right?
Joshua Johnson (31:59):
Yeah. As hope for the long haul, and to
persevere. So you, you did thisgreat in your book, hope ain't a
hustle. But you You went throughthe book of Hebrews, why? And
you've been mentioning thisbook. Yeah. But why? Why does
Hebrews itself, and the bookgive us a picture of hope in
(32:22):
Jesus that has not syncretisticwhere we're putting hope in the,
in the culture that we're from,which I think many Christians
have been doing lately, wherewe're open to the culture and
not in Jesus. And thenperseveres in the faith so that
we could remember thefaithfulness of Christ in all
(32:42):
that we do. Give us thisoverview of the book of Hebrews,
why Hebrews, and what can weglean from it?
Irwyn Ince (32:52):
Hebrews is, I say that most days, is my favorite
New Testament book. Sometimesit's my favorite book in the
whole scriptures. There's auniqueness to the letter to the
Hebrews, that is related to thelife situation of the
(33:15):
congregation that is in a hard,hard place. And the temptation,
news about syncretismpresentation is to go back under
the rules and regulations of theOld Covenant, to to lessen the
pressure and the suffering andthe persecution to make their
(33:38):
life of faith seemingly morepalatable to those who are
against them. Their their pastorhas to say, Listen, no, no, no,
no, it's old. It's the oldcovenant for a reason. Right?
All right, it's, it's ready tovanish away, the new is better.
And so his, the trajectory inHebrews over and over again as
(34:03):
he comes in saying that Jesus isbetter. That's the, that's the
first point is, he is theglorious reading is the greatest
of the glory, but he's better.
He's better than the angels.
He's better than the prophets.
He's, he's better than thepriests. He's better than the
kings. He's better than Moses.
(34:28):
He's better. He's better. He'sbetter. He's better. Right? So
So why are you trying to go backunder Moses, Jesus is better. So
therefore because he's better.
Let's look at him and, and whathe did for us. Let's look at him
and say, Oh, he he. He suffered,He endured he, for years. He was
(34:51):
made like his brothers andsisters in every respect. So
that he can become a A mercifuland faithful High Priests in the
service of God. So here's partof your means of endurance.
Jesus is your high priest. Thatmeans he's making intercession
(35:12):
for you with God the Father,chapter seven, he always lives
to make intercession, he has thefather's ear. So you, you, you
sit your hope on him, because heis seated at the right hand and
majesty on AI. He says thatabout six times in the letter,
(35:33):
he's seated at the right game ofthrones got seated at the right
end of the match, that's wherehe is living, making
intercession for you. So hesays, We want each of you
chapter six, to have the fullassurance of your hope, all the
way to the end. Right? thefullest short, we want you to
(35:57):
hold on to the full assurance ofyour hope, all the way to the
end of your lives. And he says,we have this hope, as a sure and
steadfast anchor of the soul.
This hope is seldom, it anchorsus, it anchors our very lives.
(36:19):
It doesn't so So does it. So thestorm columns and what happens
to the anchor ship, it doesn'tmove. It doesn't go off center.
Right? It stays tethered.
Alright. He says this hope takesus into the inner place, the
Holy of Holies, the heavenlyone, where Jesus has gone as a
foreigner on our behalf. And so,so Hebrews in particular, puts
(36:44):
out this hope that is rooted inour resurrected and ascended
Lord, and that has verypractical application for them
in their lives. So when he getstoward the end of the letter,
maybe the most familiar paths,or chapters in all of the Bible,
(37:07):
Hebrews chapter 11, the Hall ofFaith, what he starts out that
chapter saying, right, faith, isthe assurance of the things that
we hoped for, the evidence ofthe things we don't see. So
before he lays out this hole offaith, all of these faithful
ones who held on to thepromises, he says, that's the
(37:30):
assurance of our hope, thethings we hoped for, the
evidence of the things we don'tsee. And then after he does
that, he says, Well look, youall in your lives, you're
surrounded by this great cloudof witnesses, all of these
faithful ones, you've got moreinformation than then they were
faithful to the end. BeforeJesus came, you look back, Jesus
(37:53):
has come. So you got this greatcard of witnesses. So here's the
practical work Chapter is thepractical application in chapter
12. Right? Therefore, let's layaside every weight and the sin
that clings so closely. Andlet's run with endurance the
race that's been set before us,right, looking to Jesus, the
(38:16):
author and perfecter of ourfaith, who for the joy that was
set before Him endured thecross, despising the shame, and
is seated at the right hand ofGod and here's, here's the take
home for me. When he says,Consider him who endured such
hostility from sinners againsthimself. He says, so they you
(38:38):
may not grow weary orfainthearted it is your means of
indirect JESUS IS is your meansof endurance. Consider him look
to him so that he's a soda y'alldon't growth weary or
fainthearted
Joshua Johnson (38:58):
while this is really good, there's a few
things that you know on a pullon one is that God is praying to
God so she which is Jesus isinterceding on our behalf. And
so God is praying to God like athese these her people as like
Jonah in community, right?
Because you're doing it with us,like we're, we're saying here,
here are the things I needJesus, intercede for me, and
(39:22):
we're doing it and communitycommunity is is key to this
faithfulness and perseverance aswe're running this race, as you
said earlier, so I thinkcommunity is key but we have
seen a lot of of major leadersfall from grace. We have seen
them not be faithful until theend. And there's been a lot of
(39:44):
you know, of man, questioning,deconstruction, whole bunch of
things in the wake of peoplefalling and not being faithful.
So how do we take this letter tothe Hebrews? How do we take this
group community of people wherethey're tempted to go back into
(40:07):
the old covenant, under the oldways to make faith more
palatable? So they're not beingpersecuted? How do we take this
and say, we can see faithfulnessinto the ends? We can hold on to
our hope. And we can be standingand not fall? Constantly. There
are some faithful people.
Irwyn Ince (40:33):
Yes, there are.
Yeah. And, you know, part of itis this reality. Like the church
is still here. In thescriptures, you find leaders
failing. And you just read,like, just go through about,
there's only there's only onewho didn't fail at all. And he's
(40:54):
the center of awfully an Oracle,right? The Lord Jesus, everybody
else, even those who are able toendure even those who repented,
and, and you have marks on theirlives that demonstrate their
sinfulness every everyone, thepatriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and
(41:19):
Jacob. Right? In David andright. You cannot you the
Prophet, Jeremiah says, Lord,You deceived me. And I was
deceived. Like, I don't want togo, like, like, you know, Paul
calls out these false leaders tothe Galatians, who's B, which to
(41:44):
you, you are running the waste?
Well, you had some people comein and preach you a false
gospel. Like, there is no pointin the Scriptures, the letter to
the seven churches, letters tothe seven churches in
Revelation, Jesus is calling outfalse prophets, false leaders in
(42:05):
the church. Right. And so, sofor those who are doing this
deconstructing, because leadersare falling down the stand, the
Bible doesn't present us withany human leaders who do not
have sinfulness and, and doesnot present us with leaders who,
who fall away. That's there inthe scriptures. So our
(42:26):
expectation as God's people isnot that we will somehow find
perfect Christian leaders, whohave no sinful ways who will
never ever, ever fall. We don'tnecessarily have that as an
expectation. But when ithappens, as devastating as it
(42:46):
is, it is not as though we aresurprised that people fall
because we see it in theScriptures. And what the
Scriptures do constantly is tosay, set your hope on God who
never lies, when he says inchapter six, right, right. So
(43:07):
right, he says, my twounchangeable things in which it
is impossible for God to lie, wewho have fled for for refuge,
might have strong encouragementto hold fast to the hope that is
set before us. Right? Is we fledto God for refuge, if it's
impossible for him to Allah. So,so. So we, we, we have an
(43:33):
honesty about the Christianfaith that that says, Listen,
don't we don't set our hopes onpeople. We set our hopes on God.
resurrected Christ. Right. He'sthe center. He's the one who
upholds the universe by the wordof this power.
Joshua Johnson (43:53):
Amen. Amen. We have to recognize where we put
our hope. Where are we puttingour hope? Are we putting our
hope and in Jesus, are weputting our help somewhere else?
And that's, that's almost adaily audit. Where Where am I
putting my hope? today? Yes,
Irwyn Ince (44:12):
yeah. Short daily.
Yes, exactly. Right. A daily,odd because my sense of my hope
can waver daily. Right. Mysalvation is secure. But it
doesn't mean I'm always going tofeel assured. Amen.
Joshua Johnson (44:32):
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, that's right. So that whatis giving you hope, at the
moment?
Irwyn Ince (44:37):
Yeah, yeah. The things that I've talked about
the, you know, it's reallyinteresting, because we're, you
know, we're dealing with somechallenges in ministry right
now, you know, both at ourchurch level and in the work
that I do, and in conversationwith my wife that, you know, you
(44:59):
know, denominationally I justthe challenges and, and so that
there that I see. And because ofsocial media, the critiques that
come of the Church of mydenomination, all of that, and I
keep having to remind myselfthat, that Jesus is the King.
(45:23):
And that he, he has made it hispurpose to do his work through
jars of clay that He may beglorified. And I remember Oh,
yeah, um, um, play to play to,like, you have this treasure and
(45:48):
Joseph place and at thesurpassing glory maybe is, and
not ours, right. And that's whatgives me hope to say Okay,
today, today, you know, lastversion Hebrews are quote, I
think, in chapter four, when hesays, you know, we have, we
don't have a great high priestwho is unable to sympathize with
our weakness, but one who hasbeen tempted in every way as we
(46:11):
have yet without sin. Sotherefore, let's draw nearer to
the throne of grace withconfidence, so that we may
receive mercy and find grace tohelp in our time of need, there
it is. That intentionality thereis the continue the languages
keep drawing near. The Lordgives you todays mercy and grace
(46:35):
to take his mercy and grace.
Yes,
Joshua Johnson (46:38):
amen. Is there a hope that you have for your
readers to read hope in ahustle? That is not just to say,
Hey, I'm going to take Irwin'sgreat words, and I'm going to
hold on to them, and then put myhope in Jesus, but is there like
a hope that you have thatthey'll take a next step after
reading the book? Yeah,
Irwyn Ince (46:58):
there's a particular a particular aspiration that I
had, it is for people to seethat we can have a far different
response in our polarizedculture of contents today, as
God's people because of the hopethat we have, in Christ that we,
(47:24):
we are not driven and shaped andmove in how we live life in this
world, by the political agendasof the day, by the polarization
that sets us against them. Sothat the step might, that I
(47:48):
would desire for my readers totake is to say, were, in my own
life, or maybe in my own lifetogether as a congregate our
life together as a congregation.
Do we actually push against thenarrative of polarization and
division? In our community? Inour, in the church? Right? And
where do we? Where would Godhave us? Where would God have me
(48:14):
more faithfully and fully pressagainst this narrative of
division that our culture wantsto uplift? Hide it. So that's
why that we will start to seethat and people would take that
step and say, no, no, no, no,no, I'm willing to, I'm willing
(48:36):
to sit with people I differ withvastly. I'm willing to give
people dignity and honor asimage bearers, I'm willing to
reflect a Christ's likeness,because my hope is sitting him
not in. Not in being right,about my, you know, perspectives
(48:59):
in positions.
Joshua Johnson (49:03):
Yeah, that's, that's really, really good. I
think that if we could go in tothis polarized age that we live
in and be a prophetic witness,to say that I'm going to sit
with with people that aredifferent from me. And I'm going
to say that there is a third waythat we could point to a way
that is the way of Jesus that issubversive to the culture and to
(49:26):
the way that we go about doingthings, we're going to see
radical change, and it doesn't,we don't have to, like, yell at
people to bring them over to ourside, we actually have to show a
third way, a new way away ofJesus, and that I could get my
hope behind that I could getbehind to say, okay, Jesus is
(49:51):
faithful, and we're gonna holdon to that in the middle of this
crazy culture that we live in.
So that's good. Man, this book,hope and hustle is a book for
our age and our day that we needit. We need to hold on to this
and to hold on to hope. So I, Ireally pray that a lot of people
read this, take it to heart andput it into action, be that
(50:13):
prophetic witness in theircommunity to do that. Or when I
have a couple of questions atthe end here, one, if you could
go back to your 21 year oldself, what advice would you
give? If I could go? Hey, youwere having a good time back
then.
Irwyn Ince (50:32):
I could go back to my 21 year old self. I would, I
would say a few things. I wouldsay, Listen, you need a lot more
humility, you do not know nearlyas much as you think you do. You
you need to you need to listenmore. And stop being so
(50:58):
bombastic with your positionyou. I would I would say that.
And then I would say in a veryreal sense. It's actually going
to be okay. God is who He saysHe is. And she will keep you so
(51:21):
many dangers, toils and snares.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (51:26):
that's good.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately, you could
recommend?
Irwyn Ince (51:30):
Oh, boy. There I am.
Um, I am working through at therecommendation of my son, my
oldest son, Jonathan Aigues.
Biography on Martin Luther King,Jr. King life. I have been
working through that. And it is,it is a fabulous biography.
(51:54):
Because there's new informationthat had been released from
tapes and interviews. And itpaints a full picture warts and
all, you know, so it gives afull picture of the man it's not
so you know, high and Teflonthat he doesn't want to talk
about his sinful tendencies andthings like that, or what he was
(52:18):
up against it really, it'sprobably, to this point, the
best that I I've everencountered in terms of reading
something on the life of Dr.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Joshua Johnson (52:29):
Cool. That's great. Fantastic recommendation.
Erwin, thank you for thisconversation. And thank you for
going deep right away. I get wedid. Much surface revisit, we
went down to the battle. And theI appreciate that you would go
on that journey with me to divedeep into into laments and
(52:50):
sorrow and hard, difficultthings within our culture and
cultures around the world toknow that Jesus is good news for
all people, all ethnicitiesaround the world. He's the
Savior of the world. And that wecan hold on to hope that we can
say that Jesus is faithful thatwe can know that there is a
third way, a new way that we canlive and that we can do that
(53:13):
community. So thank you for thisconversation. Fantastic. I
absolutely loved it. It's been
Irwyn Ince (53:18):
my pleasure. And thank you for asking the
questions.
Joshua Johnson (53:21):
You're welcome.
You're welcome.
You're surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses,
all of these faithful ones.
You've got more information thanthen they were faithful to the
end. Before Jesus came, you lookback, Jesus has come. So you got
this great cloud of witnesses.
So here's the practical workChapter is the practical
(00:20):
application in chapter 12,right? Therefore, let's lay
aside every weight and the sinthat clings so closely. And
let's run with endurance therace that's been set before us,
right? Looking to Jesus, theauthor and perfecter of our
faith, who for the joy that wasset before Him endured the
(00:40):
cross, despising the shame, andis seated at the right hand of
God. And here's, here's the takehome for me. When he says,
Consider him who endured suchhostility from sinners against
himself. He says, so that youmay not grow weary or
(01:00):
fainthearted. It is your meansof indirect JESUS IS is your
means of endurance.
Joshua Johnson (01:21):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
forget to hit the Follow buttonon your favorite podcast app to
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(01:44):
a rating and review. It's easy.
It only takes a second and ithelps us find new listeners to
the show. Just go to the Showpage on the app that you're
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know what else would help usout? share this podcast with
your friends, your family, yournetwork? Tell them how much you
enjoy it and let them know thatthey should be listening as
well. If you're new here,welcome. If you want to dig
(02:05):
deeper find us on social mediaat shifting culture podcast
where I post video clips andquotes and interact with all of
you. Previous guests on the showhave included Steve Ballmer
predator, Benjamin Windell, andJustin Bailey. You can go back
and listen to those episodes andmore. But today's guest is Erwin
ants. Irwin is the coordinatorof mission to North America part
(02:26):
of the Presbyterian Church inAmerica. Formerly he was a
pastor at Grace DC Pres. He isalso the author of the beautiful
community in 2018 and wasunanimously elected as the 46th
Presbyterian Church in AmericaGeneral Assembly moderator, the
first African American to holdthe position. Irwin Ensign I
(02:46):
talk about hope in the contextof race, oppression community
and lament. He inspires us topersevere and hope through
difficult times. We explore theroots of hope and Christ despite
past rejections, detanglingimpressive actions from the
gospel message and theimportance of fixing one's gaze
on Jesus enduring throughsuffering by looking to his
(03:08):
example. So join us as weactively push against narratives
of division by demonstrating athird way of Jesus and regularly
check where we are placing ourhope. Here is my conversation
with Erwin ince Erwin, welcometo shifting culture. Thank you
so much for joining me reallyexcited to have you.
Irwyn Ince (03:30):
Yes. Good to be with you, Joshua. Good to be with you
this morning. Thanks for theinvitation.
Joshua Johnson (03:34):
Yeah, I'd love to have a little bit of an
introduction to you through thelens of hope. Since we're
talking about hope, today. Wherehave you found hope, in Jesus in
your own life? And where weresome of those those big moments
that you needed to hold on tohope? Great
Irwyn Ince (03:53):
question. I mean, you know, there are I will start
this where, where I lost hope inJesus. First, in my younger
days, when I literally forsookthe faith. I was raised in a
Christian home, but I, by thetime I got to college, became
(04:15):
very hostile towards theChristian faith, I was immersed
at the time in what was calledthe afro centric movement and
began to view Christian faith asan oppressive religion, the
white man's religion a tool usedto enslave people of African
descent here in the UnitedStates and other places and, and
(04:38):
and any sense of hope. So myhope then became in the ability
for or ability of black peopleto to fight for what I saw as
their just rights and due rightto so hope you in ourselves,
(05:01):
which is a failing venture, youknow, and so and so when the
Lord, I use this language whenwhen Jesus rejected my rejection
of him and want me to himself, Ibegan to see life through the
lens of His word began to seeoh, there, there are
(05:21):
expectations that I had. Thatactually, the story, the African
American story is one that hasvery rich gospel roots at the
center of it. That a peoplehaving a hopefulness through
enslavement and oppression,segregation, and Jim Crow, those
(05:44):
are the set, those are theshoulders I'm standing on, even,
even now. And so. So that's,that's one, you know, not small
thing, but major aspect of whenmy hope was, came alive, my
faith and my hope in Christ camealive, to see Oh, ye is actually
the Lord has actually broughtpeople through immense suffering
(06:10):
and pain. And given them a senseof His love and glory and
goodness to persevere.
Joshua Johnson (06:18):
I was just listening this morning to
theologian, college professorwho has his students read and
listen to black spirituals,while they are studying the book
of Exodus of and parallels theactual of the slaves and how
they started to find hope, andgods, that there is something
(06:39):
better than what we're enslaved.
And there has to be some, somegood news. And and so to
parallel the Exodus story, inthe Old Testament, that, that
God is bringing the Israelitesout of slavery into new life and
the promised lands and theprayer that was happening at
that time. How did you start todetangle the difference between
(07:03):
yet yes, there are horribleoppressions that Christian white
Christians have done to AfricanAmericans. And but that's not
the gospel. So how did you startto detangle those threads?
Irwyn Ince (07:21):
Yeah, that's, that's an important question. It's it
is, it's important to recognizethat the Christian faith doesn't
have its in Europe have had,that the Savior of the world, in
His incarnation was a pennis.
Palestinian Jewish man. Yes,that matters. But not because he
(07:44):
wasn't white matters, becausethe language that the scriptures
uses from beginning to end, Godhas a plan of redemption, and
the reunion of humanity in hisson, that is global in its
scope, that is not possession ofa particular ethnic, or cultural
(08:07):
group or racial group, that heis literally the Savior of the
world. And so beginning toappreciate those aspects of my
own story, how it is rooted, orhow it is tied to God's global
story of redemption, inparticular ways so I can look at
(08:30):
my own familial history I can, Ican look at how my parents came
to faith in Christ, both peopleof African descent, my father
from the Caribbean, and mother,North Carolina, and how God in
his sovereignty, how the sin ofhumanity, the depravity of
humanity, that that is seen inpeople group, oppressing other
(08:57):
people groups, that that is notenough to throw God off of his
course and plan for redeemingpeople. So not even enslavement
will stop the Lord's redemptionprogram. Right and, and to be
able to say, to separate whatpeople the way that to more
(09:18):
thing they'll say is the waythat humanity has a propensity
towards syncretistic religion,to marry our cultural
preferences and proclivitieswith biblical a gospel truth and
(09:42):
package them together andsaying, This is what
faithfulness looks like. And,and the ability to say no, no,
no, no, no. The Gospel alwaysmanifests itself in cultural
context that cannot not do that,right. But the ABA, the ability
(10:02):
to see oh, how the Gospel comesin and calls out the sinful
practices of a culture, all atthe same time, renewing beauty,
the beauty of it in the senseof, we're all image bearers so
that beauty is going to come outin a cultural context, and to
(10:25):
not make one culturalexpression, the full picture of
what faithfulness to Christlooks like.
Joshua Johnson (10:37):
You know, I know that there is there's been a a
difference, and really thetheology of the black Caribbean
people and to the AfricanAmerican church, there is a
subtle difference between thetwo. Have you seen that and your
own family? And what did youlearn from? Both? Both sides?
Irwyn Ince (10:57):
Yeah. Well, sure, there surely is a difference in
this sense. Your father's fromTrinidad, originally, and
Joshua Johnson (11:08):
Trinidad is an interesting place, isn't it?
There are so many differentcultures. I've had a few times
and it's really, really aninteresting place.
Irwyn Ince (11:16):
Yes. And so in the in the Trinity, I didn't context
Yes, there was slavery, right.
Africans were enslaved. AndIndians from India were brought
over as indentured servants.
When Trinidad gets itsindependence, you actually have
(11:38):
the reality of, of white peoplebeing the minority in the
nation. So it's a differentdynamic when your faith is lived
out, in a context, that is notone of oppression and
segregation, and Jim Crow, wherethere still now there are still
challenges in resisting thedivide between those of African
(12:04):
descent and those of Indiandescent in the church. Right.
There's still that, but butthat's not a case of oppressor
and oppressed relationship.
Whereas in the context of in theAfrican American context, the
storyline of, of injustice runsthrough the Civil Rights era,
(12:25):
you know, in many ways into ourcurrent reality. So it's, it's
not past it is not, you know,oh, generations ago. Right. It's
still present. wrestle you.
That's why you talked about thespiritual, that those spirituals
burst out of an experience in adepressive experience. Right?
(12:50):
And so yes, they are so so youdon't have in the context of
when I go to Trinidad, I don'trecall singing spirituals in the
worship. You know, it's, it'sjust, it's just not part of that
tradition.
Joshua Johnson (13:09):
I think that's that's just an interesting
dynamic has grown up and thenstarting to move into this the
afro centric movement and tryingto to talk about the oppressors,
and then starting to detanglewhat is gospel? What is faith?
And what is the, you know, thehuman oppressor? And it's, you
(13:31):
know, an interesting coming froma lot of different nations,
ethnic groups coming fromdifferent perspectives. And I
think that's why, you know, asyou said, Jesus is the hope of
the whole world. And for everypeople group, and I, you know,
it's really difficult when we'rein these hard situations, were
(13:54):
being oppressed, or there's, youknow, hard things that are
happening, to hold on to hope.
I, I'm in Kansas City, two daysago, Superbowl parade, we had a
shooting. Two juveniles are incustody that they were
perpetrators, they decided toshoot some people, one person is
dead. eight kids have been shotand in the hospital. It's
(14:19):
something where, man, I thinkwhat happens is this. I mean, my
wife this morning, told me, youknow, I am feeling really down.
And I think it started when Iheard about the shooting of the
parade. And so what I thinkhappens is that when we're in
(14:39):
these situations of saying, Iwant to see justice prevail, and
I really want to see the kingdomof God on earth as it is in
heaven. But then we get intocircumstances like okay, it is
we're far from that. So youstart to say, I'm afraid to
engage because doesn't doanything. And I think then fear
(15:00):
then leads to depression ofsaying, nothing's going to work.
There is no hope in thesituation. I can't get involved.
How can we, in thosecircumstances, step into this
place a faith and hope andcontinue to persevere? Yes.
Irwyn Ince (15:22):
Why? You've you hid the use of a key word there.
Fear. We were faced with thereality, the depravity, death,
on the things that are threatsto our ability to hold on to
hope. And this is, this isnormal. This is normal for the
(15:48):
life of faith in Christ. It isnot an abnormality for us to
experience, the the difficulty,the tragedy, the depravity of
life in a way that threatens ourability to remain hopeful,
hopeful, in the, in the promisesthat God has me, not hope in an
(16:12):
abstract way. But hope for whatJesus has said will come to pass
will come to pass. And so how dowe do it? I think there are a
couple of things to, to reallyhold on to. So write the letter
to the Hebrews. That's that'sthe challenge that the
congregation knows. He those whoreceived this word of
(16:33):
exhortation are are facing, theyare suffering, they're facing
persecution, for their faith inJesus Christ, they're being
tempted to drift away, they'rebeing tempted to make
compromises to the faith,they're wondering, is it worth
it is following Jesus. Andtheir, their pastor uses that
(16:55):
language of fear. In the secondchapter, when he talks about the
Incarnation, he said that Jesushad to be made like us in every
respect. All right. So that hesaid, through death, he might
destroy the one who had thepower of death, that is the
(17:15):
devil, and deliver those whowere subject to lifelong fear of
death, who deliver those who areenslaved to the fear of death.
Jesus, what Jesus came to freeus from was our enslavement to
fear of death. That's a veryreal thing. So when we talk
(17:38):
about the things, I mean, youtalk about the shooting this
death, literal death. But everytime we see the impact of human
sinfulness, there's a reality ofdeath involved. There is this
loss of faith, that things arenot the way they ought to be,
that there's not the justice andrighteousness in the land. And
(18:03):
so, so the response is a twofold responses, just like what
the writer to the Hebrews does,is the first thing he does, he
fixes their gaze on Jesus, he ishe is going to exhort them to
persevere in the faith II,throughout the throughout the
letter, endure, you have need ofendures. But he starts soon
(18:26):
there. He starts his word tothem by saying, Look at Jesus,
he, he's the radiance of theglory of God, the exact
representation of his nature. Heupholds the universe, by the
Word of His power, he madepurification for sins and sat
down at the right hand of theMajesty on high. Like, this is
(18:49):
who your God is. So your gazeYeah, is fixed horizontally on
all of the issues. But but youhave to also have a vertical
gaze, and who your Lord isbecause he actually endured far
worse than what you're enduring.
Several times. He says inchapter five, that Jesus well in
chapter two, right, it wasfitting for God to make the
(19:10):
founder of their salvationperfect through suffering.
Chapter Five, Jesus learnedobedience through what He
suffered. Chapter 12 Considerhim who endured such hostility
from sinners against himself, sothat you may not grow weary or
fainthearted. Look to Jesus,look to Jesus, look to Jesus and
(19:31):
do that also buy your life withone another. So it's not the the
holding on to hope thepersevering is not just me, a
rugged, individualistic, like, Ibelieve in Jesus, I'm going to
hold on to hope I would havefixed my gaze on Jesus. Is it
No, no, we do it together as Hispeople, we actually help one
(19:53):
another. That's part of themajor emphasis in validity.
Right exhort one another everyday, as long as it is called
today, I see to it that, thatyou do not neglect to meet
together as is the habit of somethis is a, it is a horizontal
communion, the holding on tohope is done in community. It's
(20:14):
not me as an isolated,individual Christian.
Joshua Johnson (20:21):
So if you say exhorts, or encouraged, so to
give somebody courage to, youknow, that's what, what God is
saying, over and over, you know,my lifelong verse that I had to
give to my son when he wasafraid to step into school was
Joshua one, nine, have notcommanded you be strong and
courageous. Do not be afraid,you know, the Lord your God will
(20:42):
be with you wherever you go. Andso that was that encouragement
to me from a from the book ofJoshua, to me, Joshua, and I
hold on to that, like, beencouraged, have courage, how do
we in community give courage toeach other? When fear creeps in?
Irwyn Ince (21:07):
In this way, I'm gonna take my cues again, I can
go several places willing totake my cues, from the Letter to
the Hebrews, because there's somuch there, around this
corporate life together, thisreality that we, as God's people
(21:28):
share in a heavenly calling. Wehave a responsibility, God given
responsibility for thisexhortation as sometimes, right.
Sometimes it can be the wholecommunity that is having to
endure through a fearful timeand experience in context. And
(21:50):
very often you will find, andI've, I've found this, that
literally being together withother brothers and sisters, who
have this shared experience, anda shared fear, find the courage
in that shared experience,meaning, we know who we belong
(22:11):
to, and we know it collectivelyand together and we know that
there is therefore strength.
When we when we stay incommunion, in connection with
one another. When we are cryingout to the Lord, when we are
praying together. When we arewhen we are laying our hearts
bare. Before God together, let'sgo back to the Negro spirituals
(22:33):
that you referenced earlier.
Those who are burst out of outof a community, it's a wonderful
thing. You can't attribute the,you know, author's name to a
negro spiritual, his this waspenned by such and such. You
(22:55):
don't know who it who it is. Itliterally is a communal soul.
You know, nobody knows thetrouble. I see. Nobody knows my
sorrow. Nobody knows thetrouble. I see. Nobody knows but
Jesus, that spiritual singing ittogether in community, it's a
(23:15):
lament. And it's a confession.
Jesus knows our sorrows. Heknows our troubles. So he's our
hope. And so you find this, youfind that strength in community,
even when the shared experiencesis a harsh word. Right? That
that we remind each othertogether, of who we are in
(23:36):
Jesus, and who he is and andwhat we have in him. The power
of His Spirit to endure, is itis indispensable for our ability
to hold on
Joshua Johnson (23:52):
to all. Yeah, I think what you said there,
lament is really important tolament together. I've lived in
other countries have done donemissions, I send missionaries,
we tried to have incarnationalministry work and to different
cities and communities in theStates and all over the world.
(24:13):
And what does that look like forsomebody like me that has moved
into the neighborhood? So say,I'm an outsider, how do I go as
an outsider and laments with thepeople of that community? When
tragedy strikes, and they'retrying to hold on to hope? How
(24:34):
can I not just put on false hopefor for other people, but
actually engage in the lamentand the sorrow of the community?
If I come in as an outsider,there's just
Irwyn Ince (24:50):
a need for a for a humility to enter in as a
learner. In that, thosecontexts, I don't enter into a
context like that, with even anoffering of let me help, you
know, I sit in the dust and weepwith those who are weeping and
(25:12):
mourn the brokenness, and, andnot, you know, not try to not
try to be like Job's friendwho's who friends of who, right
who blew it. So as they opentheir mouths, right, let's fix
this, let me let me fix this foryou. Like sometimes the reality
(25:33):
is, we have to sit in the wehave to sit in the grief, you
got to sit in the grief, and nottry to fix the grief, especially
if I am new to a community acontext, I don't know, half of
what I need to know, to be Idon't even know how to offer
(25:57):
light in that. You know, ittakes time to actually be
welcomed in to be able to offera word of encouragement and
hope. And you know, we knowthis. When people are grieving
and mourning, sometimes the bestthing we can do is just sit and
say nothing and be in grief andnot be uneasy with our inability
(26:22):
to fix anything. You know, whatPastor, friend of mine in his
sermon is, I don't even rememberthe text he was preaching for.
Never resist, you know,sometimes the most godly thing
we can do with our mouths iskeep it shut. I think that
there's a skill, in a sense inlearning how to lament well,
(26:44):
like that. grief, pain, so it'snot comfortable. We know
intuitively as Christians, thehope of the gospel, we know the
promises that are sure and true.
We know the promises ofredemption, of new life, of
reconciliation, of, of renewal,of reunion of fixing, that
(27:05):
what's broken, that there is aday coming of no more mourning,
no more tears, no more pain offormer things will have passed
away. We know it is as sure asnight follows day. And the and
that awareness should give usthe ability to sit in the pain
without trying to have to movepeople to that the ability to
(27:29):
sit in the pain and and allowthat grief to be very present
with people and be prayerfulabout how to serve other image
bearers in in that situation.
Joshua Johnson (27:53):
Yeah, so if I'm an outsider, I'm a listener. I'm
a learner, I sit, I can shut mymouth, then God can move. On I'm
just thinking of circumstancesin my own life where I've had to
shut my mouth and just sit andweep with those that were were
(28:13):
weeping and mourn with thosethat were morning, thinking
about my context here in KansasCity. After the shooting, if
we're going to lament and besorrow, sorrowful, and walk with
this together, that the cityitself is not unified right now.
Like there's the To be honest,though, the there is a white
(28:37):
church and an African Americanchurch in Kansas City, you know,
and it stems all the way throughredlining. And there's specific
neighborhoods that aresegregated. And even today,
after all those years, when wegot rid of that, it's still like
that, in a city where there isdivision, but we want unity. And
(29:02):
we want to come together to tolament, how do we how do we do
that? And in a place where somepeople know each other, but not
very many people know eachother. So walk into it, is there
a good way to start?
Irwyn Ince (29:20):
This is an important question because what you're
describing is not unusual. Me,me US context, at least, I
believe the world is alwaysgoing to be putting a kind of
burden for gospel unity on thehearts of his people. And
(29:41):
finding those people even ifit's few in number, through
relationships that we have tosay, Okay, we we want to pray
together. Right? Like we we wantto, we want to demonstrate our
unity In Christ, in response tothis tragedy and our division,
(30:06):
and we want to pray together, wewant to come together and commit
to that. Finding those folks,even if it's a few a number, and
believing that as if we startsomething like that, that the
Lord may be pleased to grow it,we want to quickly respond, we
want to say, Okay, we got to, wegot to quickly respond to this
(30:29):
pain in this tragic, we got todemonstrate a unity, we've got
to, we've got to move towardhealing. But, but the division
didn't happen quickly. Sosometimes, it's to say, Okay,
here's, we may want to make abig statement in a, in a
significant response to this asGod's people in this place. But
(30:54):
that may not be the mostfeasible response for us to
have, if it's not genuine. Ifit's something we're
manufacturing, we say, well, howdo we build over the long term?
How do we build over the longterm, a commitment to share to
shared prayer and life as God'speople in this city? For the
(31:19):
good of our neighbors like tosay, how do we do that, that
that something we think, willbear fruit can bear fruit over
the long term, instead of onlythinking, Oh, we got to respond
to this tragedy, we have to havea show. We have to put something
forward to demonstrate ahopefulness to the community. So
I'm not dismissing that. And itmay be that that can that that
(31:45):
can happen. But that's not thething that makes long change
over the course of time. Right?
That's the response to anincident. And there will be more
incidents, right?
Joshua Johnson (31:59):
Yeah. As hope for the long haul, and to
persevere. So you, you did thisgreat in your book, hope ain't a
hustle. But you You went throughthe book of Hebrews, why? And
you've been mentioning thisbook. Yeah. But why? Why does
Hebrews itself, and the bookgive us a picture of hope in
(32:22):
Jesus that has not syncretisticwhere we're putting hope in the,
in the culture that we're from,which I think many Christians
have been doing lately, wherewe're open to the culture and
not in Jesus. And thenperseveres in the faith so that
we could remember thefaithfulness of Christ in all
(32:42):
that we do. Give us thisoverview of the book of Hebrews,
why Hebrews, and what can weglean from it?
Irwyn Ince (32:52):
Hebrews is, I say that most days, is my favorite
New Testament book. Sometimesit's my favorite book in the
whole scriptures. There's auniqueness to the letter to the
Hebrews, that is related to thelife situation of the
(33:15):
congregation that is in a hard,hard place. And the temptation,
news about syncretismpresentation is to go back under
the rules and regulations of theOld Covenant, to to lessen the
pressure and the suffering andthe persecution to make their
(33:38):
life of faith seemingly morepalatable to those who are
against them. Their their pastorhas to say, Listen, no, no, no,
no, it's old. It's the oldcovenant for a reason. Right?
All right, it's, it's ready tovanish away, the new is better.
And so his, the trajectory inHebrews over and over again as
(34:03):
he comes in saying that Jesus isbetter. That's the, that's the
first point is, he is theglorious reading is the greatest
of the glory, but he's better.
He's better than the angels.
He's better than the prophets.
He's, he's better than thepriests. He's better than the
kings. He's better than Moses.
(34:28):
He's better. He's better. He'sbetter. He's better. Right? So
So why are you trying to go backunder Moses, Jesus is better. So
therefore because he's better.
Let's look at him and, and whathe did for us. Let's look at him
and say, Oh, he he. He suffered,He endured he, for years. He was
(34:51):
made like his brothers andsisters in every respect. So
that he can become a A mercifuland faithful High Priests in the
service of God. So here's partof your means of endurance.
Jesus is your high priest. Thatmeans he's making intercession
(35:12):
for you with God the Father,chapter seven, he always lives
to make intercession, he has thefather's ear. So you, you, you
sit your hope on him, because heis seated at the right hand and
majesty on AI. He says thatabout six times in the letter,
(35:33):
he's seated at the right game ofthrones got seated at the right
end of the match, that's wherehe is living, making
intercession for you. So hesays, We want each of you
chapter six, to have the fullassurance of your hope, all the
way to the end. Right? thefullest short, we want you to
(35:57):
hold on to the full assurance ofyour hope, all the way to the
end of your lives. And he says,we have this hope, as a sure and
steadfast anchor of the soul.
This hope is seldom, it anchorsus, it anchors our very lives.
(36:19):
It doesn't so So does it. So thestorm columns and what happens
to the anchor ship, it doesn'tmove. It doesn't go off center.
Right? It stays tethered.
Alright. He says this hope takesus into the inner place, the
Holy of Holies, the heavenlyone, where Jesus has gone as a
foreigner on our behalf. And so,so Hebrews in particular, puts
(36:44):
out this hope that is rooted inour resurrected and ascended
Lord, and that has verypractical application for them
in their lives. So when he getstoward the end of the letter,
maybe the most familiar paths,or chapters in all of the Bible,
(37:07):
Hebrews chapter 11, the Hall ofFaith, what he starts out that
chapter saying, right, faith, isthe assurance of the things that
we hoped for, the evidence ofthe things we don't see. So
before he lays out this hole offaith, all of these faithful
ones who held on to thepromises, he says, that's the
(37:30):
assurance of our hope, thethings we hoped for, the
evidence of the things we don'tsee. And then after he does
that, he says, Well look, youall in your lives, you're
surrounded by this great cloudof witnesses, all of these
faithful ones, you've got moreinformation than then they were
faithful to the end. BeforeJesus came, you look back, Jesus
(37:53):
has come. So you got this greatcard of witnesses. So here's the
practical work Chapter is thepractical application in chapter
12. Right? Therefore, let's layaside every weight and the sin
that clings so closely. Andlet's run with endurance the
race that's been set before us,right, looking to Jesus, the
(38:16):
author and perfecter of ourfaith, who for the joy that was
set before Him endured thecross, despising the shame, and
is seated at the right hand ofGod and here's, here's the take
home for me. When he says,Consider him who endured such
hostility from sinners againsthimself. He says, so they you
(38:38):
may not grow weary orfainthearted it is your means of
indirect JESUS IS is your meansof endurance. Consider him look
to him so that he's a soda y'alldon't growth weary or
fainthearted
Joshua Johnson (38:58):
while this is really good, there's a few
things that you know on a pullon one is that God is praying to
God so she which is Jesus isinterceding on our behalf. And
so God is praying to God like athese these her people as like
Jonah in community, right?
Because you're doing it with us,like we're, we're saying here,
here are the things I needJesus, intercede for me, and
(39:22):
we're doing it and communitycommunity is is key to this
faithfulness and perseverance aswe're running this race, as you
said earlier, so I thinkcommunity is key but we have
seen a lot of of major leadersfall from grace. We have seen
them not be faithful until theend. And there's been a lot of
(39:44):
you know, of man, questioning,deconstruction, whole bunch of
things in the wake of peoplefalling and not being faithful.
So how do we take this letter tothe Hebrews? How do we take this
group community of people wherethey're tempted to go back into
(40:07):
the old covenant, under the oldways to make faith more
palatable? So they're not beingpersecuted? How do we take this
and say, we can see faithfulnessinto the ends? We can hold on to
our hope. And we can be standingand not fall? Constantly. There
are some faithful people.
Irwyn Ince (40:33):
Yes, there are.
Yeah. And, you know, part of itis this reality. Like the church
is still here. In thescriptures, you find leaders
failing. And you just read,like, just go through about,
there's only there's only onewho didn't fail at all. And he's
(40:54):
the center of awfully an Oracle,right? The Lord Jesus, everybody
else, even those who are able toendure even those who repented,
and, and you have marks on theirlives that demonstrate their
sinfulness every everyone, thepatriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and
(41:19):
Jacob. Right? In David andright. You cannot you the
Prophet, Jeremiah says, Lord,You deceived me. And I was
deceived. Like, I don't want togo, like, like, you know, Paul
calls out these false leaders tothe Galatians, who's B, which to
(41:44):
you, you are running the waste?
Well, you had some people comein and preach you a false
gospel. Like, there is no pointin the Scriptures, the letter to
the seven churches, letters tothe seven churches in
Revelation, Jesus is calling outfalse prophets, false leaders in
(42:05):
the church. Right. And so, sofor those who are doing this
deconstructing, because leadersare falling down the stand, the
Bible doesn't present us withany human leaders who do not
have sinfulness and, and doesnot present us with leaders who,
who fall away. That's there inthe scriptures. So our
(42:26):
expectation as God's people isnot that we will somehow find
perfect Christian leaders, whohave no sinful ways who will
never ever, ever fall. We don'tnecessarily have that as an
expectation. But when ithappens, as devastating as it
(42:46):
is, it is not as though we aresurprised that people fall
because we see it in theScriptures. And what the
Scriptures do constantly is tosay, set your hope on God who
never lies, when he says inchapter six, right, right. So
(43:07):
right, he says, my twounchangeable things in which it
is impossible for God to lie, wewho have fled for for refuge,
might have strong encouragementto hold fast to the hope that is
set before us. Right? Is we fledto God for refuge, if it's
impossible for him to Allah. So,so. So we, we, we have an
(43:33):
honesty about the Christianfaith that that says, Listen,
don't we don't set our hopes onpeople. We set our hopes on God.
resurrected Christ. Right. He'sthe center. He's the one who
upholds the universe by the wordof this power.
Joshua Johnson (43:53):
Amen. Amen. We have to recognize where we put
our hope. Where are we puttingour hope? Are we putting our
hope and in Jesus, are weputting our help somewhere else?
And that's, that's almost adaily audit. Where Where am I
putting my hope? today? Yes,
Irwyn Ince (44:12):
yeah. Short daily.
Yes, exactly. Right. A daily,odd because my sense of my hope
can waver daily. Right. Mysalvation is secure. But it
doesn't mean I'm always going tofeel assured. Amen.
Joshua Johnson (44:32):
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, that's right. So that whatis giving you hope, at the
moment?
Irwyn Ince (44:37):
Yeah, yeah. The things that I've talked about
the, you know, it's reallyinteresting, because we're, you
know, we're dealing with somechallenges in ministry right
now, you know, both at ourchurch level and in the work
that I do, and in conversationwith my wife that, you know, you
(44:59):
know, denominationally I justthe challenges and, and so that
there that I see. And because ofsocial media, the critiques that
come of the Church of mydenomination, all of that, and I
keep having to remind myselfthat, that Jesus is the King.
(45:23):
And that he, he has made it hispurpose to do his work through
jars of clay that He may beglorified. And I remember Oh,
yeah, um, um, play to play to,like, you have this treasure and
(45:48):
Joseph place and at thesurpassing glory maybe is, and
not ours, right. And that's whatgives me hope to say Okay,
today, today, you know, lastversion Hebrews are quote, I
think, in chapter four, when hesays, you know, we have, we
don't have a great high priestwho is unable to sympathize with
our weakness, but one who hasbeen tempted in every way as we
(46:11):
have yet without sin. Sotherefore, let's draw nearer to
the throne of grace withconfidence, so that we may
receive mercy and find grace tohelp in our time of need, there
it is. That intentionality thereis the continue the languages
keep drawing near. The Lordgives you todays mercy and grace
(46:35):
to take his mercy and grace.
Yes,
Joshua Johnson (46:38):
amen. Is there a hope that you have for your
readers to read hope in ahustle? That is not just to say,
Hey, I'm going to take Irwin'sgreat words, and I'm going to
hold on to them, and then put myhope in Jesus, but is there like
a hope that you have thatthey'll take a next step after
reading the book? Yeah,
Irwyn Ince (46:58):
there's a particular a particular aspiration that I
had, it is for people to seethat we can have a far different
response in our polarizedculture of contents today, as
God's people because of the hopethat we have, in Christ that we,
(47:24):
we are not driven and shaped andmove in how we live life in this
world, by the political agendasof the day, by the polarization
that sets us against them. Sothat the step might, that I
(47:48):
would desire for my readers totake is to say, were, in my own
life, or maybe in my own lifetogether as a congregate our
life together as a congregation.
Do we actually push against thenarrative of polarization and
division? In our community? Inour, in the church? Right? And
where do we? Where would Godhave us? Where would God have me
(48:14):
more faithfully and fully pressagainst this narrative of
division that our culture wantsto uplift? Hide it. So that's
why that we will start to seethat and people would take that
step and say, no, no, no, no,no, I'm willing to, I'm willing
(48:36):
to sit with people I differ withvastly. I'm willing to give
people dignity and honor asimage bearers, I'm willing to
reflect a Christ's likeness,because my hope is sitting him
not in. Not in being right,about my, you know, perspectives
(48:59):
in positions.
Joshua Johnson (49:03):
Yeah, that's, that's really, really good. I
think that if we could go in tothis polarized age that we live
in and be a prophetic witness,to say that I'm going to sit
with with people that aredifferent from me. And I'm going
to say that there is a third waythat we could point to a way
that is the way of Jesus that issubversive to the culture and to
(49:26):
the way that we go about doingthings, we're going to see
radical change, and it doesn't,we don't have to, like, yell at
people to bring them over to ourside, we actually have to show a
third way, a new way away ofJesus, and that I could get my
hope behind that I could getbehind to say, okay, Jesus is
(49:51):
faithful, and we're gonna holdon to that in the middle of this
crazy culture that we live in.
So that's good. Man, this book,hope and hustle is a book for
our age and our day that we needit. We need to hold on to this
and to hold on to hope. So I, Ireally pray that a lot of people
read this, take it to heart andput it into action, be that
(50:13):
prophetic witness in theircommunity to do that. Or when I
have a couple of questions atthe end here, one, if you could
go back to your 21 year oldself, what advice would you
give? If I could go? Hey, youwere having a good time back
then.
Irwyn Ince (50:32):
I could go back to my 21 year old self. I would, I
would say a few things. I wouldsay, Listen, you need a lot more
humility, you do not know nearlyas much as you think you do. You
you need to you need to listenmore. And stop being so
(50:58):
bombastic with your positionyou. I would I would say that.
And then I would say in a veryreal sense. It's actually going
to be okay. God is who He saysHe is. And she will keep you so
(51:21):
many dangers, toils and snares.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (51:26):
that's good.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately, you could
recommend?
Irwyn Ince (51:30):
Oh, boy. There I am.
Um, I am working through at therecommendation of my son, my
oldest son, Jonathan Aigues.
Biography on Martin Luther King,Jr. King life. I have been
working through that. And it is,it is a fabulous biography.
(51:54):
Because there's new informationthat had been released from
tapes and interviews. And itpaints a full picture warts and
all, you know, so it gives afull picture of the man it's not
so you know, high and Teflonthat he doesn't want to talk
about his sinful tendencies andthings like that, or what he was
(52:18):
up against it really, it'sprobably, to this point, the
best that I I've everencountered in terms of reading
something on the life of Dr.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Joshua Johnson (52:29):
Cool. That's great. Fantastic recommendation.
Erwin, thank you for thisconversation. And thank you for
going deep right away. I get wedid. Much surface revisit, we
went down to the battle. And theI appreciate that you would go
on that journey with me to divedeep into into laments and
(52:50):
sorrow and hard, difficultthings within our culture and
cultures around the world toknow that Jesus is good news for
all people, all ethnicitiesaround the world. He's the
Savior of the world. And that wecan hold on to hope that we can
say that Jesus is faithful thatwe can know that there is a
third way, a new way that we canlive and that we can do that
(53:13):
community. So thank you for thisconversation. Fantastic. I
absolutely loved it. It's been
Irwyn Ince (53:18):
my pleasure. And thank you for asking the
questions.
Joshua Johnson (53:21):
You're welcome.
You're welcome.
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