March 22, 2024 • 55 mins
In this episode, Craig Detweiler and I have a great conversation around creativity, faith, and storytelling. We talk about how creativity reflects the nature of God and is a godly activity, the differences between humans and AI, and the importance of recognizing humanity. We talk about perceiving inspiration through openness to God's spirit and finding quiet moments, the role of criticism and collaboration in the creative process, and embodied worship and improvisation as ways to fully engage creativity. How do you strike a balance between digital and physical experiences and value humanity over technology. So join us as we discover ways that human intelligence will always be better than artificial intelligence.
Filmmaker and author Craig Detweiler, PhD, is President of the cultural investment organization, the Wedgwood Circle, and Dean of the College of Arts and Media at Grand Canyon University. He wrote the screenplays for The Duke, the comedic road trip, Extreme Days and directed the award-winning documentary Remand, narrated by Angela Bassett. His acclaimed books include iGods: How Technology Shapes Our Spiritual and Social Lives, Selfies: Searching for the Image of God in a Digital Age, Deep Focus: Film and Theology in Dialogue and his new book about Honest Creativity in the age of A.I. Detweiler’s cultural commentary has been featured on ABC’s Nightline, CNN, Fox, NPR, and in The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal. Variety honored Detweiler as their 2016 Mentor of the Year.
Craig's Book:
Honest Creativity
Craig's Recommendations:
BEEF
The Bear
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Craig Detweiler (00:00):
All too often we're at with our phones. It's
(00:02):
if it's the last thing we checkin at night, and the first thing
we check in at the in themorning, that thing is setting
its agenda. It's saying, well,these are the notifications.
This is what you need to attendto, in this order of importance.
I'm actually encouraging us tosay no, no, we don't, we can
actually, honest creativity saysthat. No, I have enough worth
(00:22):
and enough of myself that I cantrust human intelligence, human
ingenuity and human imagination.
H AI will always be strongerthan AI. It may not be as fast.
But guess what fast may not bethe greatest virtue, it may not
be as efficient. Guess what, whosaid efficiency is the best
thing.
Joshua Johnson (00:55):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
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(01:17):
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It only takes a second and ithelps us find new listeners to
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know what else would help usout? share this podcast with
your friends, your family, yournetwork? Tell them how much you
enjoy it and let them know thatthey should be listening as
well. If you're new here,welcome. If you want to dig
(01:38):
deeper find us on social mediaat shifting culture podcast,
where I post video clips andquotes and interact with all of
you. Previous guests on the showhave included Elijah Davidson,
Josh Larson and Mandy Smith. Youcould go back listen to those
episodes and more. But today'sguest is Craig Detweiler. Greg
Detweiler is a filmmaker andauthor and president of the
(02:01):
cultural investmentorganization, the Wedgewood
circle, and Dean of the Collegeof Arts and Media at Grand
Canyon University. He wrotescreenplays for the Duke the
comedic roadtrip extreme daysand directed the award winning
documentary remained narrated byAngela Bassett. His acclaimed
books include I gods, howtechnology shapes our spiritual
and social lives, selfiessearching for the image of God
(02:24):
in the digital age, deep focus,film, and theology and dialogue
and his latest book, on hiscreativity in the age of AI.
That while there's culturalcommentary has been featured on
ABC, Nightline, CNN, Fox, NPRand the New York Times for it
honored Detweiler as their 2016mentor of the year, Craig and I
(02:47):
sit down and we have a greatconversation around creativity,
faith, and storytelling. Wetalked about how creativity
reflects the nature of God andas a godly activity the
differences between humans andAI and the importance of
recognizing humanity. We talkedabout perceiving inspiration
through the openness to God'sSpirit and finding quiet
(03:08):
moments, the role of criticismand collaboration in the
creative process, and embodiedworship and improvisation as
ways to fully engage creativity.
How do you strike a balancebetween digital and physical
experiences and value humanityover technology? Well join us as
we discover ways that humanintelligence will always be
(03:30):
better than artificialintelligence. Here's my
conversation with CraigDetweiler. Greg, welcome to the
podcasts. We're really excitedto have you on. Thank you for
joining me.
Craig Detweiler (03:41):
Thank you, Joshua. Glad to be here.
Joshua Johnson (03:43):
Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about
creativity. The differencebetween just receiving machine
creativity for us and thencreating our own things like
what what do we need to do ashumans to continue to create, to
be honest, in our creativity, Iwant to start out with some of
(04:05):
your story of who you are. Andwhy why you're talking about
creativity. Where has story andcreativity started to play out
in your own life?
Craig Detweiler (04:17):
Well, I've always been a story lover,
whether that meant readingbooks, you know, in elementary
school, checking out, you know,as many as I could check out
from the library, what but thenthat moved into films, and
really starting to resonate withthe characters that I was seeing
on screen and identifying withsomebody like Humphrey Bogart
and saying, I want to be coollike Humphrey Bogart. And then
(04:41):
then that has gone into not onlyjust writing my own books, my
own movies, but then for thepast 20 some years, also tried
to educate the next generation.
And how do I inspire? You know,young ministers, young youth
leaders, aspiring filmmakers,songwriters, how do we help
everybody? They kind of connectwith that God given creative
(05:01):
spark within them.
Joshua Johnson (05:05):
So how do you see the the relation between
faith and, and film faith in thearts, the creative works?
Craig Detweiler (05:14):
Well, obviously, since we're, we're
made in the image of God, andGod was the, in a sense, the
first self imager. And so Ibelieve that it's something like
as seemingly simple as a selfiecan be elevated, that when we're
making selfies, we're reflectingthe beauty and wonder of our
(05:35):
self image in God. And so thatcall to storytelling into
extending our, our lives and ourvisions, is something that is
when we're doing that I think weare reflecting the very nature
of God. And it's not a secondaryactivity, it's actually it's
actually amongst the most godlyactivities we can engage in.
Joshua Johnson (05:57):
Before we jump into some of this, the stuff
between AI and create humancreativity, I want to know, so
let's let's talk about what'sthe difference between art and
Christian art? Is there? Becauseit seems to be like there is a,
(06:18):
I don't know, Christian art, forme, a lot of times is derivative
of our God given likecreativity, it's not the, I
don't know, it doesn't seem tobe elevated. And so why is it
that if we try to put aChristian hat on something, it
seems a little little cheesy,but if we just use our God given
(06:44):
creativity, it actually elevatesthe the art, I would
Craig Detweiler (06:49):
say it's because Christian is a noun,
describing a person. It is notan adjective. And it's used as a
marketing term, right? Butthat's using it as an adjective.
So I don't believe in Christianart, I believe that there are
Christians who create art. Andthat act of going into the
(07:14):
depths of their soul, andconnecting to their higher
source may create something, youknow, redemptive and surprising
and funny, and raw and painful,that hopefully reflects the
truth about how the world works.
What is good, what is beautiful,what is worthy. But no, I only
(07:35):
believe I only believe in peoplewho are Christians, that's the
only use of the word I know. Idon't know that. I don't know
that other term. I don't use
Joshua Johnson (07:51):
it. Well, that's good. I think that's I think
it's helpful for for us, and alot of people like this is we
need to start to engage in ourfull selves. And in our full
creativity. You know, we'recoming off of a time, you know,
in 2023, there was the writerstrike, there was the actor
strike there is, and the bigconversation was around the use
(08:14):
of AI? And what is it going tobe in the future? And for
actors? Are you going to be ableto use my image and likeness to
create a character that is notme, but is looks like me? It
sounds like me, talks like me?
What is the state of AI in thearts of the moment? And what are
(08:35):
the fears substantiated? Whereare we headed?
Craig Detweiler (08:42):
I certainly stood in solidarity with all
writers and actors in Hollywoodas a screenwriter, myself, there
are legitimate fears, that ifstudios, execs can find a
cheaper way to generate stories,they undoubtedly will. And so it
was right to strike. And it'sright to be anxious, you know,
(09:06):
graphic designers, I can see whythey'd be worried. If something
like mid journey can rendersomething this quickly. And if
you don't like it, it can renderanother version that quickly.
animators who have done things,you know, sort of frame by frame
or in in game design when we'redealing with world building, and
then how do you build concepts?
All of those? I would say thoseearly level jobs are those early
(09:29):
envisioning jobs, I think arelegitimately threatened by the
speed with which AI can scourthe internet for all imaging
that has gone on in tire humanhistory and giving you something
resembling what you have mayhave prompted. So I wrote the
(09:49):
book on his creativity inresponse to that collective
anxiety to try to maybe talk usa little bit down off allege,
had said to have a little lessfear. And to say there have
always been tools that havealways potentially, you know,
threatened certain jobs andtrades. But we've also always
(10:10):
adjusted and said, Okay, well,what can I do with this new
tool? And how might I use itmore effectively and
responsibly, to make my workeven better, and not to ever use
the tools as a crutch, but asmaybe an accelerator for my own
ideation, and, and creation? As
Joshua Johnson (10:33):
we're moving forward? With AI? How do we
utilize it in a way where wecould use it as a tool? And we
don't just get a copy of thereal thing?
Craig Detweiler (10:46):
Yes, well, as a as a person who generates
original ideas and thinking, I'mvery concerned, you know,
there's kind of the three C'sright now. The question of
copyright, question of credit,question of compensation. You
know, how do I ensure that myideas aren't stolen? How do I
(11:10):
ensure that the work that I'mgenerating isn't stealing from
others, it's, it wasinteresting, there's an early
court case that determined AIcannot own a copyright. So you
may be able to generatesomething, but if it was
generated by AI, that companydoesn't really own it, and you
don't really know what'sgenerated because it's not made
(11:31):
or owned by a person. And so ina sense, only a person can own
an idea or own an image. That's,that's pretty interesting. So
there's sort of the dignity ofhumanity is being preserved and
protected right now in the courtof law. And how do we do the
(11:52):
same thing? Even in our owncongregations, right? How do we,
how do we lift up the sanctityof life? When it comes to to
creativity and ownership ofideas?
Joshua Johnson (12:06):
What is the difference between us as humans,
and machines? I just interviewedsomebody who talked a lot about
metaphors and difference betweenthe metaphor of like, of trees,
like your a tree, or your youknow, your machine, there's a
difference between humans andmachines. And I think sometimes
(12:27):
it's dangerous to think of us asmachines. Because if we think
that we're competing with thecompany, the AI and the
computers, we like we can't keepup. Right? So how are we
different? And why is itimportant for us to reclaim the
different nests of humanity?
Craig Detweiler (12:49):
Yeah, it's interesting how I would say the
metaphors of, of each age affectour theology, you know, so maybe
in the Enlightenment age, therewas this notion of God as the
clockmaker who has, you know,set set the world in motion now
the clock is ticking. I thinknow, we tend to think of
(13:09):
ourselves as like, informationprocessors, and like, oh, that
sermon today, that was a bigdownload, right, we start to
take the language of the era andapply it to ourselves, rather
than kind of reversing it theother way and say, Well, how are
we different from that? Not howlike a machine? Are we in our,
(13:32):
in our processing ability? Buthow different are we from a
machine and our processingability? I mean, as an example,
if the machines are all aboutspeed and efficiency, then
perhaps how do we lean into aspirituality or a creativity
that is slow and inefficient?
And that that becomes a, like asuperpower is that we can
(13:54):
contemplate things slowly, overtime, is weak and can deal with
emotions that are very complexthat might take months or even
years to unpack? So a machinecan give us a quick overview of
the what the five stages ofgrief are. But we're the only
ones who actually walked throughthose stages as we grieve for
(14:17):
the loss of a parent or a spouseor even a child. And so even
when we think of terms of like,God's grief over the loss of his
son or Jesus's Agony in theGarden, machines never
experienced that. But we'veexperienced things like that,
that are comparable to that,that allow us to open up into
(14:40):
new metaphorical possibilitiesof what these spiritual
analogies might be. Machinescan, can, can cut a mimic human
history, but they can't actuallyfilter it through their own
lived, emotional and embodiedexperience.
Joshua Johnson (14:57):
Have you seen any AI agenda Aided Product? And
can you tell that there's lesshuman life behind it?
Craig Detweiler (15:08):
Well, I, it's interesting I, I talk with
educators a lot. And I try toencourage them to use AI in
their classrooms and let thestudents begin to compare and
critique and analyze AIgenerated content versus human
generated content. And as thosethings continue to merge, and
there becomes less and less of agap, and it's gonna get
(15:29):
trickier. In fact, even if youtake early generation computers,
robotics, and the kinds ofanswers that robots would give,
versus the kind of answers thatChet GPP will spit out, it is
getting more and moresophisticated, and all the time
all the time, I don't think thatnecessarily makes it a bad
thing. It it challenges us toactually come up with new
(15:50):
metaphors, and to not just buildupon the past, I think, as a
pastor, right? It's like, wewant to know the full depth of
theological history and all thedifferent kinds of interpretive
angles and lenses that wereavailable in Scripture. Well,
now, given all that, that can begenerated by AI in seconds, how
(16:11):
do we how do we analyze that?
How do we look closely at thatand say, Well, here's the best
metaphor, or what's the metaphorthat hasn't actually been dealt
with? And so it actually, Ithink, when something else can
aggregate so quickly, itactually forces us to say, how
do I go deeper, and saysomething that hasn't been said,
and, and invite the Holy Spiritinto that iterative process? And
(16:33):
say, give me something more?
What do I need to know God thathasn't been said or done.
Joshua Johnson (16:41):
So then let's go into that process. Let's go get
into the creative process and,and listen to the Holy Spirit
and trying to create somethingthat maybe hasn't been said,
something that could show us,you know, the depth of humanity
in a new way that could reckonwith our our fears, and our joy
and all the incredible thingsthat our creativity does for us
(17:05):
that we could know that we arehuman is the life that we we
live? How does that creativityprocess starts in a way that is
is that the human process?
That's good?
Craig Detweiler (17:20):
Well, the artist creativity, the book is
divided into three sections. Andthen the first section really
does focus on us as people. AndI really do start with our
fears, I do start with ourhighest aspirations. And I do
start with our limits. And so itstarted with all that the mess
of what we have, maybe howlittle that we feel like we have
(17:43):
to bring to the process. Andthat that abject fear, or
whether it's the blank page,right of like, I don't know what
I'm gonna write, as a pastor,your reward for, you know, a
great Sunday is wrath. I have todo it again next week. Right? So
it's the tear of the blank pagethat hits us, you know, every
(18:05):
Monday, maybe that is Monday, welike ignore it on Monday, but by
Tuesday, it's like, I still needsomething for this next week.
And I think that that needinessis actually a great starting
point. Because it isn't, itisn't in our giftedness that we
start, but it's in our the gapis probably what I would say.
(18:26):
And that gap, to me is what theSpirit fills it right that
there's an image in the bookthat one of my students at Grand
Canyon University generatedwhere there's, there's open
hands, you know, where they'rethere. And that's, that's it,
that is how I think we probablyshould start, you know, that
sermon every time is what Iwould call honest reception, you
(18:50):
know, how do I get in a spacewhere I can honestly receive
what God would have for me? Andwhat kind of perhaps quiet? What
kind of different setting do Ineed to create for myself? How
do I need to remove myself fromthe crowds, all those things
that Jesus, right away, we hearthese examples of Jesus doing
(19:13):
these things. When when thechaos interrupts him and the
disciple says, I've got aquestion and I've got a need.
And when there's a, there's aproblem over here, almost always
he's in repose. He's in retreat.
And that's in kind of an activeretreat, right? This is a person
who says, if I if I can go grab20 minutes right now, I think
I'm going to do that, because Iknow how much chaos is on the
(19:34):
other side. And so it's in tome, it's, it's in those quiet
moments, and, and it's makingthose quiet moments for
ourselves. Maybe it's turningoff the radio in the car. You
know, it's not listening to apodcast while we run in search
of ideas. It's saying, I don'thave any ideas. I'm gonna go for
a run and hoping by the end ofthe ride, I'm gonna get an idea.
Yeah.
Joshua Johnson (19:56):
Well, I just want to say this, I think is a
very important conversation. Wehave the first gift of the Holy
Spirit in the Bible were thegifts of artists and craftsmen
to make the tabernacle to makeit beautiful, and to give a
wandering people in the middleof an ugly desert, a place of
(20:16):
beauty that would capture thepresence of God. And so that's
what the arts does for us, itactually creates beauty that
that transcends our humanexperience at times, or it helps
us reckon with our humanexperience. And so I think as,
as church leaders and people outin the world as mission,
(20:40):
missionaries, mission leadersthere, they're going to have to
grapple with how do we expresssomething in a way that actually
points to the living God, in ourday and age. And so this, I
think it's important for eachone of us, it's not important
just for, you know, thescreenwriters or the poets, or,
(21:02):
you know, those types of people,but it's actually we're all
actually creative. It's not justan information, download, we're
not computers. So, you know, wetalked about, about that. So we
have open hands with the HolySpirit we we walk in, but you
know, I often think I don't knowhow to start to convey what I
(21:27):
what I'm trying to convey, I'mat a loss for words, I'm going
to last for the right medium,to, to produce something so that
people can interact with it. Howdo we know how to start, like,
where to go? Like, how do wesay, Alright, here's the the
first word on the page, and Ican go?
Craig Detweiler (21:49):
Yes. Well, I think it's a process of both
breathe, and receive. And, andso and so that that word for
breath of God, right, that's,that's that Hebrew word Ruach.
And that's that word that was a,you know, that's that spirit
that was in Genesis one, it wasthe spirit at creation. It's
(22:12):
that same Ruach that is placedin those artisans in in Exodus.
And so in that process ofbreathing, and openness to
receiving, then what I encouragein the book is perceiving. And I
think that's, that's where it'ssort of, like, I've slowed
(22:32):
myself down enough that I'm opento what God has for me. And now,
how do I perceive and that'swhere Jesus talks about eyes to
see, and ears to hear. And, and,and that's, that's being
absolutely wide open to therange of information that's
often in front of us. It's, it'sin our neighbors, it's, it's,
(22:56):
it's in nature, it's in the newsheadlines, but it's, it's
slowing down long enough to toperceive what's really
happening. To perceive what'sreally needed to perceive the
contemporary metaphor that'sright in front of us. That's,
that's what grace looks liketoday. You know, that's what you
(23:21):
know, it means to turn aroundand and repent. That's what
metanoia looks like today. Yeah,I did hear that in the news the
other day. And I knew itresonated with me, but I wasn't
quite sure why. Right? But whenit's easy to miss it, because of
the, I'll say theoverstimulation, right, the fact
that we have too many stories,and too many inputs coming at
(23:46):
us, it's very hard to pick outlike Val One. And yet, it's
often only the one is the onlyone is all we need, right? We
need that one example. We needthat one metaphor, we need that
one theme that then starts tohope everything else starts to
open up around us. And then andthen we trust it to great
(24:07):
because coming from a deeperplace or
Joshua Johnson (24:10):
so. So we perceive the the one thing I
think that's really importantbecause we often think there's
so many things, we actually haveto go after the one and then we
trust like this is the one andwe're gonna go after it. I think
a lot is people are reallyconcerned about how people
people, other people willperceive what is being created.
(24:32):
What what is the role of that ofthe audience is the do we I know
I heard Rick Rubin recently sayhe says the audience should be
considered last. I don't knowwhat you think. But what as
you're creating something andcreating Arts, where is the the
audience? Are we catering topeople or are we trying to
(24:54):
produce something and perceivesomething and tell one thing in
a way that is just true to Whatwe have just perceived?
Craig Detweiler (25:02):
Yes, well, so we've we've kind of walked
through a little bit of the ofwhat I would outline in the
book, we start with our self,and our own needs our own
openness, then that process is,is getting open to receiving
that inspiration that, you know,what some might call the muse,
right? Somebody like Rick Rubinmight not define it,
(25:22):
particularly. But most artistswould say, I got this idea. They
don't think it generated fromwithin themselves, they received
an idea they heard they saw animage, they caught a glimpse,
they they, they have a vision.
That third process is what do wedo with the byproduct of this.
And in some cases, it doesbecome a product. And that
(25:45):
product that needs to reach amarket needs to reach an
audience. But even that, again,still starts with needs, which
just says, I'm not quite surewhat to do with what I've been
given. And I think even thathumility from the pulpit is
actually helpful for people.
Like, I'm not exactly sure whatthis means for you. I feel like
(26:09):
this is what God's got for me togive to you. Now, let's start
unpacking that together. Howdoes this apply? How does this
connect? What can you do withthis thing that I've been given
to give to you, right, it'salways been a bit of a divine
handoff, I mean, from the firstupper room, it was Jesus like,
(26:29):
well, we're either on this day,we've got some bread, we've got
some wine, I'm going to pass itout. And then I'm going to see
what you do with it. And so it'salways been in a sense of divine
handoff, God's given me thislife, this body, this blood, I'm
now going to give you my body,my blood. And now I'm going to
see how you hand off this, youknow, this kind of sacred trust
(26:54):
to someone else? One thing thatI think artists struggle with is
that fear of artists response,excuse me of audience response.
And I think obviously, pastorsdeal with the same thing. You
know, how will this message bereceived? Am I going to lose
members? Am I going to create,you know, some dissonance in my
congregation are people going topush back against me for what
(27:18):
I've said, or sewn orcommunicated? I think we have to
be honest about how we deal withcriticism, and our fear of
legitimate criticism, and ourdiscomfort with people, perhaps
challenging things that areclose and close to our heart.
(27:38):
That's a very vulnerable placeto be I'm sharing my heart, and
you're receiving it asinformation. In the book, I do.
Write a lot about being open andhonest to criticism, editing,
and redoing stuff, trying tomake it better. The
Joshua Johnson (27:54):
most quoted thing of the Bible is Do not be
afraid, do not give into fear,you know, God is gonna be with
us. So how do we how do wenavigate our fears, and that and
be open to criticism and be opento editing and all of the other
fears that we have? I
Craig Detweiler (28:10):
think it's admitting that we actually
probably do need additionalperspective. I actually in the
book, you know, discuss David's,you know, relationship to some
of his friends and critics inhis kingdom, that he, you know,
people who were close to him,who challenged him, you know,
(28:32):
and maybe we need a Nathan inour life, somebody who drives us
crazy, but also tells us thetruth, when we're a little bit
off. I think a lot of a lot ofpastors, churches, ministries,
missionaries would have beensaved, by listening carefully to
some of that criticism. And sowhen we're blind, to that
(28:56):
outside perspective to thatoutside voice, that may well be
the voice of God. That's when weget into trouble. So if we can't
hear and receive criticism, thenwe're really open to problems.
So
Joshua Johnson (29:12):
sometimes that criticism will come from from
the outside after we've producedsomething. But sometimes it will
happen within the the processwith collaborators and I think a
lot of art is collaboration aswell. And so it's the same
within the body of Christ. It isall about us as the body coming
(29:32):
together and working together.
And I think you know, even in ina lot of your work, it seems
like your work is all aboutfiguring out how you can take
one side and the other and bringthem together. Right? And so
you're looking at how do we worktogether and have some sort of
unity how are we more alike thanwe are, are different and that
(29:53):
you can translate from one onespace to another So what is that
work of then collaborationwithin the arts and bringing
people together and translatingfor each other? Yeah.
Craig Detweiler (30:11):
I think it's how one plus one equals three.
Yeah, yeah, that's right. Well,I mean, that's, that's just
that's to me, that's dividedmath. Right? It doesn't make
sense of their irregular world.
But if you think about it, thereare those, say, those gatherings
those moments when, you know,the music leader has some vision
and some word, some song thatthey've been given. And if that,
(30:35):
you know, pastor is also kind ofdialed in at that same moment
says, Okay, I hear what I hearthis musical word we're, we're
being given that what is the,what's the preached word that
goes with it, you know, and ifyou can do that, during the
week, if you can get on the samepage, not just be like, Well,
I'm thinking this, while I'mthinking this, well, that's
(30:57):
fine. What happens when youcombine the two, now we've now
we've suddenly got this muchmore holistic thing that's
actually going to operate in thelisteners on a whole different
level, because they've nowgotten the message one, two, or
three different ways. And it's,and it's only when that holistic
vision comes together, thatsomething brand new, you know,
(31:19):
takes off I, I just came backfrom the Sundance Film Festival,
where we've been taking youngaspiring filmmakers from
Christian colleges anduniversities for over 20 years,
we've been taking filmmakers tothis gathering. And we've
brought other leaders, pastoralleaders, ministry leaders,
artistic leaders to that. And toconclude the week, it's like I
(31:41):
was in the position to sort ofsay, well, here's some themes
that we've discussed this week.
But we also had a tap dancer, aholy tap dancer named Andrew
Nimmer, who was with us, and Iwas like, okay, Andrew, what if
I just list the themes, likestandard way off off stage, you
can't even see me, I'm listingthe themes that we have the
(32:02):
movies we've seen, I want you totap dance them, I want you to
dance them out. And so I groupedthem broadly in like four
different subjects. So there wastime for him to kind of explore
what that subject dances like.
And it just gave people acompletely different way of
processing somethingintellectual, but seeing it, but
seeing it extended through abody, you know, what does this
(32:25):
look like, with my feet? Whatdoes it look like with my arms
and my legs, and my and myhands. And so it was a more full
bodied response to some thingsthat were, that were felt, as
well as, as, as understood.
Joshua Johnson (32:44):
As Westerners, we often are in our heads way
too much. And we just think,what is this right information?
And if we get the rightinformation, we know the right
way to go. But sometimes we needa more embodied experience, we
need to know that, you know, Godis is with us, like I can, I
(33:06):
could sense that in a at a danceand with music with, you know,
full, full orchestra. There isno the only information that I
have is is notes, and, you know,movement. But I do feel that the
grace and the truth that comesthrough those things. How do we
(33:28):
move from the head to the heartto get a full embodied
experience? I
Craig Detweiler (33:34):
think that's the beauty of that's something
machines are gonna struggle todo. The robots are gonna be
great at improv, though, and soa leaning into the body, leaning
into the sides live performance,leaning into improv, I think is
(33:58):
just going to be a beautifulthing. There's a discussion in
the, in the, in the other'screativity, about what happens
when jazz musicians improvise,and they actually have to cut
off they've done analyses oftheir brain, they actually have
to cut off like the criticalportion of their brain that self
(34:19):
critiques and self analyzes,they actually stop self
critiquing. And then they crossover into this other side that
says, I'm just doing this. I'mnot deciding whether it's good
or bad. I'm just doing it. Andand so it's completely lived in
the moment. I can't do it again,because I'm not even sure what
it is I'm doing. Well, that's acomplete act of faith. Right?
(34:43):
Every time it's just like, Okay,well, I know what the melody is.
I know what the structure is.
I'm not sure now where I'm gonnago. I'm not sure how long it's
gonna last. I don't even knowwhere it's going to end. And
yet, that's where somebody likeJohn Coltrane, you know, doing
something like I love supreme.
Or I talked about his solo in asong called My Favorite Things
(35:07):
from Sound of Music, a songeverybody knows, but nobody's
ever heard a nine minuteimprovised soprano saxophone
version of what my favoritethings are. So what does it feel
like to express my favoritethings? I don't know, maybe
something like this. And then hejust goes, right, and so that
you talked about being into thebreath of God into the freedom
(35:30):
and the Ruach of God. That's anembodied experience, where we're
literally trying to leave ourlimitations behind and making
room for, I would say, Sonicexploration, but also spiritual
explorations.
Joshua Johnson (35:47):
So what does that look like to improvise in
our daily lives? Like, how do wehow do we do that? Our read jazz
artists in our daily lives?
Craig Detweiler (35:58):
Well, I would say in a sense that, you know,
there's a theologian named Hansurs von Baltazar who talked
about, you know, our lived lifeas a, as a bit of a play, where
God has given us the set thestage right, the, the creator,
God has set the stage, Jesus, ina sense has given us a script,
(36:19):
here are here are ways torespond with love in a variety
of settings. But then, everyday, it's a new, slightly new
setting and a new set ofcharacters. And I'm not quite
sure how to apply those things.
And that script that I may haveeven memorized, now becomes an
act of improv. And that's wherethe Spirit in it enters and
(36:43):
says, Okay, you haven't beenhere before with these people
with this set of ethicalconundrums. What are you going
to do? How are you going to playthis scene, every day is a daily
improv, rooted in confidencethat the spirit has got us
prepared for that moment. But wecan still have fear, we can
(37:04):
still have uncertainty. In fact,we should have a healthy fear of
the unknown. But we should alsowalk with confidence that God
has prepared us, Jesus has shownus and then the Holy Spirit will
guide us in that moment.
Joshua Johnson (37:22):
So as you're been working with a lot of up
and coming people trying tostudy filmmaking in the arts and
walking with people, when you'relooking at the young generation
that has has to deal with theseAI issues all the time now, and
(37:42):
they're dealing with withmachines and machine learning
constantly. What what isexciting to you about this
generation that? And how areyou? How's their thinking,
helping us move forward in a ina healthy way?
Craig Detweiler (38:02):
I think they always figure out their own self
correctives. So when Instagramwas sort of saying, like, Okay,
you need to put yourself outthere and be Insta perfect.
Something like Snapchat camealong and said, you know, what,
what if the images don't lastforever? What if you can just
throw something out there andthen disappears in 24 hours? Oh,
(38:25):
that's that's much lesspressure. Yeah, I can do that.
And then you had another thingcome along, and just say be
real, I'm gonna pick the randommoment when you need to be real,
and throw it out there. And thenthat will also disappear. So in
a sense, all of the pressurethat maybe the platforms have
placed on people to be idealizedor to be perfected or
(38:47):
airbrushed. I keep finding youngpeople who are saying, I don't
really want to do that. Thatdoesn't sound like fun. Why,
why? Why would I want to dothat. And so at this point, my
own 20 somethings in my ownfamily, they would say, Dad,
you're way more on social mediathan we are. We're not as
connected to our phones. And infact, my daughter's like, 25 has
(39:10):
shut off her Instagram, becauseshe was tired of looking at it
and feeling that instantpressure. And so I'm like, Well,
if the 25 year old can livewithout insulin, maybe I can
too, you know. So it's it'slike, it's an interesting thing
where we like hand up the phoneand say like, good luck kids.
But then after maybe 10 years ofdealing with it, they're like,
This is dumb. I don't want toplay that game anymore. And so
(39:34):
you now see kids who are moreinterested in you know, what are
you what do you call it, likefolk core, you know, or they're,
you know, they're interested inlike, making stuff like, I'm
gonna go do pottery, I'm gonnalearn how to do glassblowing
like they're interested in howdo I manipulate the physical
world? Because they've only beengiven a digital world. They're
(39:55):
more interested in LPS that wethrew away. My kids are like
repurchase sing my albums fromyou know, the used record store
that I sold 20 years ago,they've been waiting for them to
come take it back. So there'salways I think we're in this
beautiful moment of peoplewanting physical experiences and
wanting lived experiences. In aworld that's only given them
(40:18):
often digital simulacra.
Instead, what
Joshua Johnson (40:22):
is the space that we're moving into? If the
the young generation are sayingwe want to move more into the
physical worlds and manipulatethe physical world, you have
technical achievements andadvances that were unfathomable,
even 20 years ago? What, Whereare we moving towards? What's it
(40:45):
gonna look like?
Craig Detweiler (40:48):
Well, I'm fascinated in a world where
like, digital companions becomelike, the, the preferred option
that people are gonna give youlike, oh, look, you'll have your
own AI, you know, friend thatyou can talk to all day. Like,
the more you're all in love withit like it like a movie hurry
Exactly. I think the more yousee that, it's interesting how
(41:11):
the Christian community couldpotentially be the last place
where you could gather inperson, you could get a hug, you
could get a cup of soup. And youcould be handed bread and wine,
face to face, eye to eye, wecould be one of the last groups
of people who actually believein the power of embodied
(41:34):
experience. Because we, youknow, have an incarnated God. So
we believe in the Incarnation,at a time when the entire world
is going for simulation. That'svery interesting. And even just
the idea that no, no, actually,we actually take the communion,
(41:55):
you know, in the Anglicantradition that I'm part of, we
actually take the communion tothose who are shut in. That's
how every service ends is withthe sending out of the bread and
why we're not gonna let peoplestay home and Whoa, we're
actually gonna go knock on theirdoor, we're going to bring Jesus
to them. That's actually what wedo after church. So if that's
countercultural, then so be it.
Let's go. Let's go. That's Thatsounds fun to me. I'm not
(42:20):
opposed to the bigger louder,faster church service. Like if
you want to bring all thedigital bells and whistles,
that's fine. And if you want anAI counselor on your website to
answer questions, 24/7 I get it.
That's, that's all good too. Butdo not think that that replaces
the idea of the physicalexperience of healing touch,
(42:44):
holding someone's hand andactually sharing a meal with
others. Now,
Joshua Johnson (42:49):
I have some some friends that are doing church in
the metaverse like their, youknow, meeting with people with
their digital avatars. And sothere's a meeting space where
some people don't have that faceto face time, or they wouldn't
want to have that face to facetime for some reason. So it's
serving some sort of a purpose.
But I like the the call for usto have an embodied human
(43:14):
experience moving forward, andit may be the place where we can
we can do that for one anotheris is the church and that
community? And hope so? How?
What is your hope for honestcreativity? What do you want
people to get out of it, and toapply it to their lives?
Craig Detweiler (43:36):
I guess I would want people to not fear for the
future, to not fear that themachines are taking over, that
we are now forced to servesomebody else's Digital Agenda.
All too often right with ourphones, bits if it's the last
thing we check in at night, andthe first thing we check in at
(43:58):
the in the morning, that thingis setting its agenda. It's
saying, well, these are thenotifications, this is what you
need to attend to, in this orderof importance. I'm actually
encouraging us to say no, no, wedon't we can actually honest
creativity says that. No, I haveenough worth and enough of
myself that I can trust humanintelligence, human ingenuity
(44:20):
and human imagination. H AI willalways be stronger than AI. It
may not be as fast. But guesswhat fast may not be the
greatest virtue, it may not beas efficient. Guess what, who
said efficiency is the bestthing that Jesus choose the most
efficient way. It seemed like hewas always going like the long
way or the wrong way. He wasalways like slow and
(44:42):
inefficient. It is ministry. Sofor us to want to be like faster
and more efficient. And like Idon't know, I don't know. Not
sure that's actually how thegospel spread.
Joshua Johnson (44:54):
That's good. We I mean, we talk a lot in our
ministry is the differencebetween efficiency and
effectiveness. That's going slowand reaching through within our
discipleship or you know, humaninteractions, actually is more
effective in the long run thanthe efficient even just like
getting up and sharing a messagein front of 15,000 people. It's
(45:16):
very efficient. But theeffectiveness long term isn't
going to be there. Unless, youknow, you have the your, your
small groups here have your oneon ones that you're walking with
people for the long haul. Sothat's good. A chai is always
gonna be better than AI. That'strue. Craig, if you could go
back to your 21 year old self,what advice would you give?
Craig Detweiler (45:39):
I would say probably say, I don't know, slow
down isn't that's maybe toostrong. Because it's good. It's
good to have youthfulenthusiasm. I would simply say
you don't need to hurry. Youdon't need to hurry. There's
plenty of time. For whateverthat, that thing is that you
(46:03):
feel like you need to get to. Itmay come to you faster than you
pursuing it. Self. Yeah. So it'sokay, young man. Just slow down,
relax. There's plenty of time.
Joshua Johnson (46:20):
That's good.
Usually, when we hurry, we makea lot more mistakes. You could
be quick, if you go fast withouthurting. So that's really good
advice to not hurry. I don'tthink any of us need to hurry.
Before we get going. Anythingyou've been reading or watching
lately, you could recommend
Craig Detweiler (46:43):
while a lot of the things I like, you know,
they're hard, they're hardthings to watch. You think about
the shows that won Emmys thisyear, they were series like
beef, and the bear that startwith a lot of anger, a lot of
(47:03):
profane ranting at each other,which I think is actually a fair
reflection of our culturalmoment. It's, it is a lot of
reactive anger all day on almostevery channel. But both of those
shows, the longer you stick withthem, the more you start to
(47:24):
empathize with the people andyou see the pain behind the
anger. And you see thepossibility of healing within
it. But you have to put in likethree or four hours of, of
dealing with the pain beforeyou're kind of like I don't
know, if I like these people.
And then suddenly there's aglimmer of humanity, and you go
all away. Okay, maybe they'renot so different than I am, oh,
(47:48):
maybe I actually am a little bitlike they are. And, and then
suddenly, that empathy starts totransform into something else.
In terms of solidarity andunderstanding, and then you
suddenly you know, there's somegrace notes within both of those
shows where, you know, you havepeople breaking down in church,
and listening to Amazing Grace,and you have an people
(48:12):
discovering the powerful, right,and then you have, you know,
moments of, of what kind ofthese chefs realize that they're
capable of, and I'm not justchurning out the daily beef, you
know, but on the bear, I'mactually creating true art and
artisan ship rooted inhospitality. And so as metaphors
for how we need to love and carefor people and even how we set
(48:38):
the table for people in our inour sacred settings. I found
both of them deeply inspiring.
Joshua Johnson (48:46):
Yeah. Yeah, those are great, great
recommendations, I highlyrecommend both of them. They're
really good. They are hard.
You're right. They're hardwatches sit through, but there
is that, that Grace at the endthose notes that have humanity,
and artistry at the end thatreally, really get to you. And
you know, because if you look atthe Bible, there's all sorts of
(49:09):
that in there as well. There'sthis difficult human emotions
that are are there. Sosometimes, as we we need to be
uncomfortable, and to sit withthe uncomfortable so can move us
into a better spot. I want toknow, you know, as you were just
at Sundance, did you seeanything there that you're
(49:31):
really excited to getdistribution come out?
Craig Detweiler (49:35):
There were several films that were just
devastatingly beautiful. There'sa documentary called daughters
that will show up on Netflixlater this year, that the
logline below will sort of tellyou a little bit about it. It is
(49:55):
what happens at a daddy daughterdance in a prison, you have
incarcerated fathers, whathappens when their daughters
come to visit them? And you Imean, you can just imagine the
swirl up of emotions, right? Ihave not wept at a documentary
(50:16):
ever in my life, both themoments of disappointment and,
and pain, and also the healingand the joy of reunion. It's
just super powerful. So that'scalled daughters. And that's
coming out. And we are sometimesin 2024. And then there's
(50:38):
another one called Ebola andwhich I think pertains a bit to
what we're talking about withoutus creativity. It's about a
gamer, who was also severelyhandicapped, and cracked in his
body in physical life, but hewas able to be very active on
(50:58):
why why? And, and so it's abouthis parents essentially
discovering his robustinterpersonal relationships
online. And so in many ways itdignifies that that that
Metaverse ministry that some ofthose folks you're talking
about, have undoubtedlyexperienced that it shows to
(51:19):
those who are like, What do youmean, you have friends online,
or that you've never met? Whatdo you mean, you you know, have
a crew, you know, in World ofWarcraft that are, you know,
your best friends that thatdoesn't make any sense, while
this film shows you how that canbe the case. And that those
exchanges can be filled withreal caring, and support for
(51:40):
each other. Even if you've neverbeen face to face. And so
that's, that's evil and has alsobeen bought by by Netflix. And
so it'll be out sometime thisyear for everybody to see.
Great.
Joshua Johnson (51:56):
Well, Craig, how could people get out get on his
creativity? And then where wouldyou like to point people to? How
can they connect with you? Um,
Craig Detweiler (52:03):
yeah, honest, creativity is definitely
available wherever find or lessfine books are sold, whether
that means Amazon or Barnes andNoble, or, you know, directly
from the church Publishing Groupwebsite. I think that put it
together. And, yeah, I'm onTwitter and Instagram and all
(52:27):
those places. My daughter said,I spent too much time. Facebook
is still I've heard that bedexists somewhere. So there's
still I'm still on Facebook, youknow, for all of the other
grandparents. To join. Join me.
I haven't crossed over to Tiktokyet. I just think it would just
be too tragic. I need somebodylike Martin Scorsese, his
(52:49):
daughter, you know, has, hasshown him how to how to be cool
on Tik Tok. I need I need mydaughter to take me under under
her wing. But I think shedoesn't have enough patience
with tick tock either. So. Sodon't look for me on tick tock,
unless you want to make adigital version of me. And then
you can do whatever you want tome. And through me, I guess.
Joshua Johnson (53:11):
Well, Craig, thank you so much for this
conversation as we're walkedthrough creativity, and what
does it look like to be open andreceive from the Holy Spirit and
then perceive what is going onin the world pick that one thing
that we want to focus on tostart to, to walk our creative
selves out so that we caninteract with the world and help
others start to perceive what isgoing on to move to a space that
(53:37):
is not just machine learning andgenerated, but a space where it
is interacting with the worldwith one another and moving from
a place of difficulty andhardship. And to a place of joy
and some grace, in the midst ofour pain and our sorrows. Craig,
this is great, this fantasticconversation. I'm really excited
(54:00):
to go out and be creative andstart to pursue. What does it
look like to build something inthis world? That is not just a
reflection of what I can find onchat. GPT so thank you, Greg.
Craig Detweiler (54:15):
Hey, Joshua, keep up the great work. Keep
shifting culture.
Joshua Johnson (54:19):
All right. Thank you so much. Yep.
All too often we're at with our phones. It's
(00:02):
if it's the last thing we checkin at night, and the first thing
we check in at the in themorning, that thing is setting
its agenda. It's saying, well,these are the notifications.
This is what you need to attendto, in this order of importance.
I'm actually encouraging us tosay no, no, we don't, we can
actually, honest creativity saysthat. No, I have enough worth
(00:22):
and enough of myself that I cantrust human intelligence, human
ingenuity and human imagination.
H AI will always be strongerthan AI. It may not be as fast.
But guess what fast may not bethe greatest virtue, it may not
be as efficient. Guess what, whosaid efficiency is the best
thing.
Joshua Johnson (00:55):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
forget to hit the Follow buttonon your favorite podcasts app to
be notified when new episodescome out each week, and go leave
(01:17):
a rating and review. It's easy.
It only takes a second and ithelps us find new listeners to
the show. Just go to the Showpage on the app that you're
using right now and hit fivestars. Thank you so much. You
know what else would help usout? share this podcast with
your friends, your family, yournetwork? Tell them how much you
enjoy it and let them know thatthey should be listening as
well. If you're new here,welcome. If you want to dig
(01:38):
deeper find us on social mediaat shifting culture podcast,
where I post video clips andquotes and interact with all of
you. Previous guests on the showhave included Elijah Davidson,
Josh Larson and Mandy Smith. Youcould go back listen to those
episodes and more. But today'sguest is Craig Detweiler. Greg
Detweiler is a filmmaker andauthor and president of the
(02:01):
cultural investmentorganization, the Wedgewood
circle, and Dean of the Collegeof Arts and Media at Grand
Canyon University. He wrotescreenplays for the Duke the
comedic roadtrip extreme daysand directed the award winning
documentary remained narrated byAngela Bassett. His acclaimed
books include I gods, howtechnology shapes our spiritual
and social lives, selfiessearching for the image of God
(02:24):
in the digital age, deep focus,film, and theology and dialogue
and his latest book, on hiscreativity in the age of AI.
That while there's culturalcommentary has been featured on
ABC, Nightline, CNN, Fox, NPRand the New York Times for it
honored Detweiler as their 2016mentor of the year, Craig and I
(02:47):
sit down and we have a greatconversation around creativity,
faith, and storytelling. Wetalked about how creativity
reflects the nature of God andas a godly activity the
differences between humans andAI and the importance of
recognizing humanity. We talkedabout perceiving inspiration
through the openness to God'sSpirit and finding quiet
(03:08):
moments, the role of criticismand collaboration in the
creative process, and embodiedworship and improvisation as
ways to fully engage creativity.
How do you strike a balancebetween digital and physical
experiences and value humanityover technology? Well join us as
we discover ways that humanintelligence will always be
(03:30):
better than artificialintelligence. Here's my
conversation with CraigDetweiler. Greg, welcome to the
podcasts. We're really excitedto have you on. Thank you for
joining me.
Craig Detweiler (03:41):
Thank you, Joshua. Glad to be here.
Joshua Johnson (03:43):
Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about
creativity. The differencebetween just receiving machine
creativity for us and thencreating our own things like
what what do we need to do ashumans to continue to create, to
be honest, in our creativity, Iwant to start out with some of
(04:05):
your story of who you are. Andwhy why you're talking about
creativity. Where has story andcreativity started to play out
in your own life?
Craig Detweiler (04:17):
Well, I've always been a story lover,
whether that meant readingbooks, you know, in elementary
school, checking out, you know,as many as I could check out
from the library, what but thenthat moved into films, and
really starting to resonate withthe characters that I was seeing
on screen and identifying withsomebody like Humphrey Bogart
and saying, I want to be coollike Humphrey Bogart. And then
(04:41):
then that has gone into not onlyjust writing my own books, my
own movies, but then for thepast 20 some years, also tried
to educate the next generation.
And how do I inspire? You know,young ministers, young youth
leaders, aspiring filmmakers,songwriters, how do we help
everybody? They kind of connectwith that God given creative
(05:01):
spark within them.
Joshua Johnson (05:05):
So how do you see the the relation between
faith and, and film faith in thearts, the creative works?
Craig Detweiler (05:14):
Well, obviously, since we're, we're
made in the image of God, andGod was the, in a sense, the
first self imager. And so Ibelieve that it's something like
as seemingly simple as a selfiecan be elevated, that when we're
making selfies, we're reflectingthe beauty and wonder of our
(05:35):
self image in God. And so thatcall to storytelling into
extending our, our lives and ourvisions, is something that is
when we're doing that I think weare reflecting the very nature
of God. And it's not a secondaryactivity, it's actually it's
actually amongst the most godlyactivities we can engage in.
Joshua Johnson (05:57):
Before we jump into some of this, the stuff
between AI and create humancreativity, I want to know, so
let's let's talk about what'sthe difference between art and
Christian art? Is there? Becauseit seems to be like there is a,
(06:18):
I don't know, Christian art, forme, a lot of times is derivative
of our God given likecreativity, it's not the, I
don't know, it doesn't seem tobe elevated. And so why is it
that if we try to put aChristian hat on something, it
seems a little little cheesy,but if we just use our God given
(06:44):
creativity, it actually elevatesthe the art, I would
Craig Detweiler (06:49):
say it's because Christian is a noun,
describing a person. It is notan adjective. And it's used as a
marketing term, right? Butthat's using it as an adjective.
So I don't believe in Christianart, I believe that there are
Christians who create art. Andthat act of going into the
(07:14):
depths of their soul, andconnecting to their higher
source may create something, youknow, redemptive and surprising
and funny, and raw and painful,that hopefully reflects the
truth about how the world works.
What is good, what is beautiful,what is worthy. But no, I only
(07:35):
believe I only believe in peoplewho are Christians, that's the
only use of the word I know. Idon't know that. I don't know
that other term. I don't use
Joshua Johnson (07:51):
it. Well, that's good. I think that's I think
it's helpful for for us, and alot of people like this is we
need to start to engage in ourfull selves. And in our full
creativity. You know, we'recoming off of a time, you know,
in 2023, there was the writerstrike, there was the actor
strike there is, and the bigconversation was around the use
(08:14):
of AI? And what is it going tobe in the future? And for
actors? Are you going to be ableto use my image and likeness to
create a character that is notme, but is looks like me? It
sounds like me, talks like me?
What is the state of AI in thearts of the moment? And what are
(08:35):
the fears substantiated? Whereare we headed?
Craig Detweiler (08:42):
I certainly stood in solidarity with all
writers and actors in Hollywoodas a screenwriter, myself, there
are legitimate fears, that ifstudios, execs can find a
cheaper way to generate stories,they undoubtedly will. And so it
was right to strike. And it'sright to be anxious, you know,
(09:06):
graphic designers, I can see whythey'd be worried. If something
like mid journey can rendersomething this quickly. And if
you don't like it, it can renderanother version that quickly.
animators who have done things,you know, sort of frame by frame
or in in game design when we'redealing with world building, and
then how do you build concepts?
All of those? I would say thoseearly level jobs are those early
(09:29):
envisioning jobs, I think arelegitimately threatened by the
speed with which AI can scourthe internet for all imaging
that has gone on in tire humanhistory and giving you something
resembling what you have mayhave prompted. So I wrote the
(09:49):
book on his creativity inresponse to that collective
anxiety to try to maybe talk usa little bit down off allege,
had said to have a little lessfear. And to say there have
always been tools that havealways potentially, you know,
threatened certain jobs andtrades. But we've also always
(10:10):
adjusted and said, Okay, well,what can I do with this new
tool? And how might I use itmore effectively and
responsibly, to make my workeven better, and not to ever use
the tools as a crutch, but asmaybe an accelerator for my own
ideation, and, and creation? As
Joshua Johnson (10:33):
we're moving forward? With AI? How do we
utilize it in a way where wecould use it as a tool? And we
don't just get a copy of thereal thing?
Craig Detweiler (10:46):
Yes, well, as a as a person who generates
original ideas and thinking, I'mvery concerned, you know,
there's kind of the three C'sright now. The question of
copyright, question of credit,question of compensation. You
know, how do I ensure that myideas aren't stolen? How do I
(11:10):
ensure that the work that I'mgenerating isn't stealing from
others, it's, it wasinteresting, there's an early
court case that determined AIcannot own a copyright. So you
may be able to generatesomething, but if it was
generated by AI, that companydoesn't really own it, and you
don't really know what'sgenerated because it's not made
(11:31):
or owned by a person. And so ina sense, only a person can own
an idea or own an image. That's,that's pretty interesting. So
there's sort of the dignity ofhumanity is being preserved and
protected right now in the courtof law. And how do we do the
(11:52):
same thing? Even in our owncongregations, right? How do we,
how do we lift up the sanctityof life? When it comes to to
creativity and ownership ofideas?
Joshua Johnson (12:06):
What is the difference between us as humans,
and machines? I just interviewedsomebody who talked a lot about
metaphors and difference betweenthe metaphor of like, of trees,
like your a tree, or your youknow, your machine, there's a
difference between humans andmachines. And I think sometimes
(12:27):
it's dangerous to think of us asmachines. Because if we think
that we're competing with thecompany, the AI and the
computers, we like we can't keepup. Right? So how are we
different? And why is itimportant for us to reclaim the
different nests of humanity?
Craig Detweiler (12:49):
Yeah, it's interesting how I would say the
metaphors of, of each age affectour theology, you know, so maybe
in the Enlightenment age, therewas this notion of God as the
clockmaker who has, you know,set set the world in motion now
the clock is ticking. I thinknow, we tend to think of
(13:09):
ourselves as like, informationprocessors, and like, oh, that
sermon today, that was a bigdownload, right, we start to
take the language of the era andapply it to ourselves, rather
than kind of reversing it theother way and say, Well, how are
we different from that? Not howlike a machine? Are we in our,
(13:32):
in our processing ability? Buthow different are we from a
machine and our processingability? I mean, as an example,
if the machines are all aboutspeed and efficiency, then
perhaps how do we lean into aspirituality or a creativity
that is slow and inefficient?
And that that becomes a, like asuperpower is that we can
(13:54):
contemplate things slowly, overtime, is weak and can deal with
emotions that are very complexthat might take months or even
years to unpack? So a machinecan give us a quick overview of
the what the five stages ofgrief are. But we're the only
ones who actually walked throughthose stages as we grieve for
(14:17):
the loss of a parent or a spouseor even a child. And so even
when we think of terms of like,God's grief over the loss of his
son or Jesus's Agony in theGarden, machines never
experienced that. But we'veexperienced things like that,
that are comparable to that,that allow us to open up into
(14:40):
new metaphorical possibilitiesof what these spiritual
analogies might be. Machinescan, can, can cut a mimic human
history, but they can't actuallyfilter it through their own
lived, emotional and embodiedexperience.
Joshua Johnson (14:57):
Have you seen any AI agenda Aided Product? And
can you tell that there's lesshuman life behind it?
Craig Detweiler (15:08):
Well, I, it's interesting I, I talk with
educators a lot. And I try toencourage them to use AI in
their classrooms and let thestudents begin to compare and
critique and analyze AIgenerated content versus human
generated content. And as thosethings continue to merge, and
there becomes less and less of agap, and it's gonna get
(15:29):
trickier. In fact, even if youtake early generation computers,
robotics, and the kinds ofanswers that robots would give,
versus the kind of answers thatChet GPP will spit out, it is
getting more and moresophisticated, and all the time
all the time, I don't think thatnecessarily makes it a bad
thing. It it challenges us toactually come up with new
(15:50):
metaphors, and to not just buildupon the past, I think, as a
pastor, right? It's like, wewant to know the full depth of
theological history and all thedifferent kinds of interpretive
angles and lenses that wereavailable in Scripture. Well,
now, given all that, that can begenerated by AI in seconds, how
(16:11):
do we how do we analyze that?
How do we look closely at thatand say, Well, here's the best
metaphor, or what's the metaphorthat hasn't actually been dealt
with? And so it actually, Ithink, when something else can
aggregate so quickly, itactually forces us to say, how
do I go deeper, and saysomething that hasn't been said,
and, and invite the Holy Spiritinto that iterative process? And
(16:33):
say, give me something more?
What do I need to know God thathasn't been said or done.
Joshua Johnson (16:41):
So then let's go into that process. Let's go get
into the creative process and,and listen to the Holy Spirit
and trying to create somethingthat maybe hasn't been said,
something that could show us,you know, the depth of humanity
in a new way that could reckonwith our our fears, and our joy
and all the incredible thingsthat our creativity does for us
(17:05):
that we could know that we arehuman is the life that we we
live? How does that creativityprocess starts in a way that is
is that the human process?
That's good?
Craig Detweiler (17:20):
Well, the artist creativity, the book is
divided into three sections. Andthen the first section really
does focus on us as people. AndI really do start with our
fears, I do start with ourhighest aspirations. And I do
start with our limits. And so itstarted with all that the mess
of what we have, maybe howlittle that we feel like we have
(17:43):
to bring to the process. Andthat that abject fear, or
whether it's the blank page,right of like, I don't know what
I'm gonna write, as a pastor,your reward for, you know, a
great Sunday is wrath. I have todo it again next week. Right? So
it's the tear of the blank pagethat hits us, you know, every
(18:05):
Monday, maybe that is Monday, welike ignore it on Monday, but by
Tuesday, it's like, I still needsomething for this next week.
And I think that that needinessis actually a great starting
point. Because it isn't, itisn't in our giftedness that we
start, but it's in our the gapis probably what I would say.
(18:26):
And that gap, to me is what theSpirit fills it right that
there's an image in the bookthat one of my students at Grand
Canyon University generatedwhere there's, there's open
hands, you know, where they'rethere. And that's, that's it,
that is how I think we probablyshould start, you know, that
sermon every time is what Iwould call honest reception, you
(18:50):
know, how do I get in a spacewhere I can honestly receive
what God would have for me? Andwhat kind of perhaps quiet? What
kind of different setting do Ineed to create for myself? How
do I need to remove myself fromthe crowds, all those things
that Jesus, right away, we hearthese examples of Jesus doing
(19:13):
these things. When when thechaos interrupts him and the
disciple says, I've got aquestion and I've got a need.
And when there's a, there's aproblem over here, almost always
he's in repose. He's in retreat.
And that's in kind of an activeretreat, right? This is a person
who says, if I if I can go grab20 minutes right now, I think
I'm going to do that, because Iknow how much chaos is on the
(19:34):
other side. And so it's in tome, it's, it's in those quiet
moments, and, and it's makingthose quiet moments for
ourselves. Maybe it's turningoff the radio in the car. You
know, it's not listening to apodcast while we run in search
of ideas. It's saying, I don'thave any ideas. I'm gonna go for
a run and hoping by the end ofthe ride, I'm gonna get an idea.
Yeah.
Joshua Johnson (19:56):
Well, I just want to say this, I think is a
very important conversation. Wehave the first gift of the Holy
Spirit in the Bible were thegifts of artists and craftsmen
to make the tabernacle to makeit beautiful, and to give a
wandering people in the middleof an ugly desert, a place of
(20:16):
beauty that would capture thepresence of God. And so that's
what the arts does for us, itactually creates beauty that
that transcends our humanexperience at times, or it helps
us reckon with our humanexperience. And so I think as,
as church leaders and people outin the world as mission,
(20:40):
missionaries, mission leadersthere, they're going to have to
grapple with how do we expresssomething in a way that actually
points to the living God, in ourday and age. And so this, I
think it's important for eachone of us, it's not important
just for, you know, thescreenwriters or the poets, or,
(21:02):
you know, those types of people,but it's actually we're all
actually creative. It's not justan information, download, we're
not computers. So, you know, wetalked about, about that. So we
have open hands with the HolySpirit we we walk in, but you
know, I often think I don't knowhow to start to convey what I
(21:27):
what I'm trying to convey, I'mat a loss for words, I'm going
to last for the right medium,to, to produce something so that
people can interact with it. Howdo we know how to start, like,
where to go? Like, how do wesay, Alright, here's the the
first word on the page, and Ican go?
Craig Detweiler (21:49):
Yes. Well, I think it's a process of both
breathe, and receive. And, andso and so that that word for
breath of God, right, that's,that's that Hebrew word Ruach.
And that's that word that was a,you know, that's that spirit
that was in Genesis one, it wasthe spirit at creation. It's
(22:12):
that same Ruach that is placedin those artisans in in Exodus.
And so in that process ofbreathing, and openness to
receiving, then what I encouragein the book is perceiving. And I
think that's, that's where it'ssort of, like, I've slowed
(22:32):
myself down enough that I'm opento what God has for me. And now,
how do I perceive and that'swhere Jesus talks about eyes to
see, and ears to hear. And, and,and that's, that's being
absolutely wide open to therange of information that's
often in front of us. It's, it'sin our neighbors, it's, it's,
(22:56):
it's in nature, it's in the newsheadlines, but it's, it's
slowing down long enough to toperceive what's really
happening. To perceive what'sreally needed to perceive the
contemporary metaphor that'sright in front of us. That's,
that's what grace looks liketoday. You know, that's what you
(23:21):
know, it means to turn aroundand and repent. That's what
metanoia looks like today. Yeah,I did hear that in the news the
other day. And I knew itresonated with me, but I wasn't
quite sure why. Right? But whenit's easy to miss it, because of
the, I'll say theoverstimulation, right, the fact
that we have too many stories,and too many inputs coming at
(23:46):
us, it's very hard to pick outlike Val One. And yet, it's
often only the one is the onlyone is all we need, right? We
need that one example. We needthat one metaphor, we need that
one theme that then starts tohope everything else starts to
open up around us. And then andthen we trust it to great
(24:07):
because coming from a deeperplace or
Joshua Johnson (24:10):
so. So we perceive the the one thing I
think that's really importantbecause we often think there's
so many things, we actually haveto go after the one and then we
trust like this is the one andwe're gonna go after it. I think
a lot is people are reallyconcerned about how people
people, other people willperceive what is being created.
(24:32):
What what is the role of that ofthe audience is the do we I know
I heard Rick Rubin recently sayhe says the audience should be
considered last. I don't knowwhat you think. But what as
you're creating something andcreating Arts, where is the the
audience? Are we catering topeople or are we trying to
(24:54):
produce something and perceivesomething and tell one thing in
a way that is just true to Whatwe have just perceived?
Craig Detweiler (25:02):
Yes, well, so we've we've kind of walked
through a little bit of the ofwhat I would outline in the
book, we start with our self,and our own needs our own
openness, then that process is,is getting open to receiving
that inspiration that, you know,what some might call the muse,
right? Somebody like Rick Rubinmight not define it,
(25:22):
particularly. But most artistswould say, I got this idea. They
don't think it generated fromwithin themselves, they received
an idea they heard they saw animage, they caught a glimpse,
they they, they have a vision.
That third process is what do wedo with the byproduct of this.
And in some cases, it doesbecome a product. And that
(25:45):
product that needs to reach amarket needs to reach an
audience. But even that, again,still starts with needs, which
just says, I'm not quite surewhat to do with what I've been
given. And I think even thathumility from the pulpit is
actually helpful for people.
Like, I'm not exactly sure whatthis means for you. I feel like
(26:09):
this is what God's got for me togive to you. Now, let's start
unpacking that together. Howdoes this apply? How does this
connect? What can you do withthis thing that I've been given
to give to you, right, it'salways been a bit of a divine
handoff, I mean, from the firstupper room, it was Jesus like,
(26:29):
well, we're either on this day,we've got some bread, we've got
some wine, I'm going to pass itout. And then I'm going to see
what you do with it. And so it'salways been in a sense of divine
handoff, God's given me thislife, this body, this blood, I'm
now going to give you my body,my blood. And now I'm going to
see how you hand off this, youknow, this kind of sacred trust
(26:54):
to someone else? One thing thatI think artists struggle with is
that fear of artists response,excuse me of audience response.
And I think obviously, pastorsdeal with the same thing. You
know, how will this message bereceived? Am I going to lose
members? Am I going to create,you know, some dissonance in my
congregation are people going topush back against me for what
(27:18):
I've said, or sewn orcommunicated? I think we have to
be honest about how we deal withcriticism, and our fear of
legitimate criticism, and ourdiscomfort with people, perhaps
challenging things that areclose and close to our heart.
(27:38):
That's a very vulnerable placeto be I'm sharing my heart, and
you're receiving it asinformation. In the book, I do.
Write a lot about being open andhonest to criticism, editing,
and redoing stuff, trying tomake it better. The
Joshua Johnson (27:54):
most quoted thing of the Bible is Do not be
afraid, do not give into fear,you know, God is gonna be with
us. So how do we how do wenavigate our fears, and that and
be open to criticism and be opento editing and all of the other
fears that we have? I
Craig Detweiler (28:10):
think it's admitting that we actually
probably do need additionalperspective. I actually in the
book, you know, discuss David's,you know, relationship to some
of his friends and critics inhis kingdom, that he, you know,
people who were close to him,who challenged him, you know,
(28:32):
and maybe we need a Nathan inour life, somebody who drives us
crazy, but also tells us thetruth, when we're a little bit
off. I think a lot of a lot ofpastors, churches, ministries,
missionaries would have beensaved, by listening carefully to
some of that criticism. And sowhen we're blind, to that
(28:56):
outside perspective to thatoutside voice, that may well be
the voice of God. That's when weget into trouble. So if we can't
hear and receive criticism, thenwe're really open to problems.
So
Joshua Johnson (29:12):
sometimes that criticism will come from from
the outside after we've producedsomething. But sometimes it will
happen within the the processwith collaborators and I think a
lot of art is collaboration aswell. And so it's the same
within the body of Christ. It isall about us as the body coming
(29:32):
together and working together.
And I think you know, even in ina lot of your work, it seems
like your work is all aboutfiguring out how you can take
one side and the other and bringthem together. Right? And so
you're looking at how do we worktogether and have some sort of
unity how are we more alike thanwe are, are different and that
(29:53):
you can translate from one onespace to another So what is that
work of then collaborationwithin the arts and bringing
people together and translatingfor each other? Yeah.
Craig Detweiler (30:11):
I think it's how one plus one equals three.
Yeah, yeah, that's right. Well,I mean, that's, that's just
that's to me, that's dividedmath. Right? It doesn't make
sense of their irregular world.
But if you think about it, thereare those, say, those gatherings
those moments when, you know,the music leader has some vision
and some word, some song thatthey've been given. And if that,
(30:35):
you know, pastor is also kind ofdialed in at that same moment
says, Okay, I hear what I hearthis musical word we're, we're
being given that what is the,what's the preached word that
goes with it, you know, and ifyou can do that, during the
week, if you can get on the samepage, not just be like, Well,
I'm thinking this, while I'mthinking this, well, that's
(30:57):
fine. What happens when youcombine the two, now we've now
we've suddenly got this muchmore holistic thing that's
actually going to operate in thelisteners on a whole different
level, because they've nowgotten the message one, two, or
three different ways. And it's,and it's only when that holistic
vision comes together, thatsomething brand new, you know,
(31:19):
takes off I, I just came backfrom the Sundance Film Festival,
where we've been taking youngaspiring filmmakers from
Christian colleges anduniversities for over 20 years,
we've been taking filmmakers tothis gathering. And we've
brought other leaders, pastoralleaders, ministry leaders,
artistic leaders to that. And toconclude the week, it's like I
(31:41):
was in the position to sort ofsay, well, here's some themes
that we've discussed this week.
But we also had a tap dancer, aholy tap dancer named Andrew
Nimmer, who was with us, and Iwas like, okay, Andrew, what if
I just list the themes, likestandard way off off stage, you
can't even see me, I'm listingthe themes that we have the
(32:02):
movies we've seen, I want you totap dance them, I want you to
dance them out. And so I groupedthem broadly in like four
different subjects. So there wastime for him to kind of explore
what that subject dances like.
And it just gave people acompletely different way of
processing somethingintellectual, but seeing it, but
seeing it extended through abody, you know, what does this
(32:25):
look like, with my feet? Whatdoes it look like with my arms
and my legs, and my and myhands. And so it was a more full
bodied response to some thingsthat were, that were felt, as
well as, as, as understood.
Joshua Johnson (32:44):
As Westerners, we often are in our heads way
too much. And we just think,what is this right information?
And if we get the rightinformation, we know the right
way to go. But sometimes we needa more embodied experience, we
need to know that, you know, Godis is with us, like I can, I
(33:06):
could sense that in a at a danceand with music with, you know,
full, full orchestra. There isno the only information that I
have is is notes, and, you know,movement. But I do feel that the
grace and the truth that comesthrough those things. How do we
(33:28):
move from the head to the heartto get a full embodied
experience? I
Craig Detweiler (33:34):
think that's the beauty of that's something
machines are gonna struggle todo. The robots are gonna be
great at improv, though, and soa leaning into the body, leaning
into the sides live performance,leaning into improv, I think is
(33:58):
just going to be a beautifulthing. There's a discussion in
the, in the, in the other'screativity, about what happens
when jazz musicians improvise,and they actually have to cut
off they've done analyses oftheir brain, they actually have
to cut off like the criticalportion of their brain that self
(34:19):
critiques and self analyzes,they actually stop self
critiquing. And then they crossover into this other side that
says, I'm just doing this. I'mnot deciding whether it's good
or bad. I'm just doing it. Andand so it's completely lived in
the moment. I can't do it again,because I'm not even sure what
it is I'm doing. Well, that's acomplete act of faith. Right?
(34:43):
Every time it's just like, Okay,well, I know what the melody is.
I know what the structure is.
I'm not sure now where I'm gonnago. I'm not sure how long it's
gonna last. I don't even knowwhere it's going to end. And
yet, that's where somebody likeJohn Coltrane, you know, doing
something like I love supreme.
Or I talked about his solo in asong called My Favorite Things
(35:07):
from Sound of Music, a songeverybody knows, but nobody's
ever heard a nine minuteimprovised soprano saxophone
version of what my favoritethings are. So what does it feel
like to express my favoritethings? I don't know, maybe
something like this. And then hejust goes, right, and so that
you talked about being into thebreath of God into the freedom
(35:30):
and the Ruach of God. That's anembodied experience, where we're
literally trying to leave ourlimitations behind and making
room for, I would say, Sonicexploration, but also spiritual
explorations.
Joshua Johnson (35:47):
So what does that look like to improvise in
our daily lives? Like, how do wehow do we do that? Our read jazz
artists in our daily lives?
Craig Detweiler (35:58):
Well, I would say in a sense that, you know,
there's a theologian named Hansurs von Baltazar who talked
about, you know, our lived lifeas a, as a bit of a play, where
God has given us the set thestage right, the, the creator,
God has set the stage, Jesus, ina sense has given us a script,
(36:19):
here are here are ways torespond with love in a variety
of settings. But then, everyday, it's a new, slightly new
setting and a new set ofcharacters. And I'm not quite
sure how to apply those things.
And that script that I may haveeven memorized, now becomes an
act of improv. And that's wherethe Spirit in it enters and
(36:43):
says, Okay, you haven't beenhere before with these people
with this set of ethicalconundrums. What are you going
to do? How are you going to playthis scene, every day is a daily
improv, rooted in confidencethat the spirit has got us
prepared for that moment. But wecan still have fear, we can
(37:04):
still have uncertainty. In fact,we should have a healthy fear of
the unknown. But we should alsowalk with confidence that God
has prepared us, Jesus has shownus and then the Holy Spirit will
guide us in that moment.
Joshua Johnson (37:22):
So as you're been working with a lot of up
and coming people trying tostudy filmmaking in the arts and
walking with people, when you'relooking at the young generation
that has has to deal with theseAI issues all the time now, and
(37:42):
they're dealing with withmachines and machine learning
constantly. What what isexciting to you about this
generation that? And how areyou? How's their thinking,
helping us move forward in a ina healthy way?
Craig Detweiler (38:02):
I think they always figure out their own self
correctives. So when Instagramwas sort of saying, like, Okay,
you need to put yourself outthere and be Insta perfect.
Something like Snapchat camealong and said, you know, what,
what if the images don't lastforever? What if you can just
throw something out there andthen disappears in 24 hours? Oh,
(38:25):
that's that's much lesspressure. Yeah, I can do that.
And then you had another thingcome along, and just say be
real, I'm gonna pick the randommoment when you need to be real,
and throw it out there. And thenthat will also disappear. So in
a sense, all of the pressurethat maybe the platforms have
placed on people to be idealizedor to be perfected or
(38:47):
airbrushed. I keep finding youngpeople who are saying, I don't
really want to do that. Thatdoesn't sound like fun. Why,
why? Why would I want to dothat. And so at this point, my
own 20 somethings in my ownfamily, they would say, Dad,
you're way more on social mediathan we are. We're not as
connected to our phones. And infact, my daughter's like, 25 has
(39:10):
shut off her Instagram, becauseshe was tired of looking at it
and feeling that instantpressure. And so I'm like, Well,
if the 25 year old can livewithout insulin, maybe I can
too, you know. So it's it'slike, it's an interesting thing
where we like hand up the phoneand say like, good luck kids.
But then after maybe 10 years ofdealing with it, they're like,
This is dumb. I don't want toplay that game anymore. And so
(39:34):
you now see kids who are moreinterested in you know, what are
you what do you call it, likefolk core, you know, or they're,
you know, they're interested inlike, making stuff like, I'm
gonna go do pottery, I'm gonnalearn how to do glassblowing
like they're interested in howdo I manipulate the physical
world? Because they've only beengiven a digital world. They're
(39:55):
more interested in LPS that wethrew away. My kids are like
repurchase sing my albums fromyou know, the used record store
that I sold 20 years ago,they've been waiting for them to
come take it back. So there'salways I think we're in this
beautiful moment of peoplewanting physical experiences and
wanting lived experiences. In aworld that's only given them
(40:18):
often digital simulacra.
Instead, what
Joshua Johnson (40:22):
is the space that we're moving into? If the
the young generation are sayingwe want to move more into the
physical worlds and manipulatethe physical world, you have
technical achievements andadvances that were unfathomable,
even 20 years ago? What, Whereare we moving towards? What's it
(40:45):
gonna look like?
Craig Detweiler (40:48):
Well, I'm fascinated in a world where
like, digital companions becomelike, the, the preferred option
that people are gonna give youlike, oh, look, you'll have your
own AI, you know, friend thatyou can talk to all day. Like,
the more you're all in love withit like it like a movie hurry
Exactly. I think the more yousee that, it's interesting how
(41:11):
the Christian community couldpotentially be the last place
where you could gather inperson, you could get a hug, you
could get a cup of soup. And youcould be handed bread and wine,
face to face, eye to eye, wecould be one of the last groups
of people who actually believein the power of embodied
(41:34):
experience. Because we, youknow, have an incarnated God. So
we believe in the Incarnation,at a time when the entire world
is going for simulation. That'svery interesting. And even just
the idea that no, no, actually,we actually take the communion,
(41:55):
you know, in the Anglicantradition that I'm part of, we
actually take the communion tothose who are shut in. That's
how every service ends is withthe sending out of the bread and
why we're not gonna let peoplestay home and Whoa, we're
actually gonna go knock on theirdoor, we're going to bring Jesus
to them. That's actually what wedo after church. So if that's
countercultural, then so be it.
Let's go. Let's go. That's Thatsounds fun to me. I'm not
(42:20):
opposed to the bigger louder,faster church service. Like if
you want to bring all thedigital bells and whistles,
that's fine. And if you want anAI counselor on your website to
answer questions, 24/7 I get it.
That's, that's all good too. Butdo not think that that replaces
the idea of the physicalexperience of healing touch,
(42:44):
holding someone's hand andactually sharing a meal with
others. Now,
Joshua Johnson (42:49):
I have some some friends that are doing church in
the metaverse like their, youknow, meeting with people with
their digital avatars. And sothere's a meeting space where
some people don't have that faceto face time, or they wouldn't
want to have that face to facetime for some reason. So it's
serving some sort of a purpose.
But I like the the call for usto have an embodied human
(43:14):
experience moving forward, andit may be the place where we can
we can do that for one anotheris is the church and that
community? And hope so? How?
What is your hope for honestcreativity? What do you want
people to get out of it, and toapply it to their lives?
Craig Detweiler (43:36):
I guess I would want people to not fear for the
future, to not fear that themachines are taking over, that
we are now forced to servesomebody else's Digital Agenda.
All too often right with ourphones, bits if it's the last
thing we check in at night, andthe first thing we check in at
(43:58):
the in the morning, that thingis setting its agenda. It's
saying, well, these are thenotifications, this is what you
need to attend to, in this orderof importance. I'm actually
encouraging us to say no, no, wedon't we can actually honest
creativity says that. No, I haveenough worth and enough of
myself that I can trust humanintelligence, human ingenuity
(44:20):
and human imagination. H AI willalways be stronger than AI. It
may not be as fast. But guesswhat fast may not be the
greatest virtue, it may not beas efficient. Guess what, who
said efficiency is the bestthing that Jesus choose the most
efficient way. It seemed like hewas always going like the long
way or the wrong way. He wasalways like slow and
(44:42):
inefficient. It is ministry. Sofor us to want to be like faster
and more efficient. And like Idon't know, I don't know. Not
sure that's actually how thegospel spread.
Joshua Johnson (44:54):
That's good. We I mean, we talk a lot in our
ministry is the differencebetween efficiency and
effectiveness. That's going slowand reaching through within our
discipleship or you know, humaninteractions, actually is more
effective in the long run thanthe efficient even just like
getting up and sharing a messagein front of 15,000 people. It's
(45:16):
very efficient. But theeffectiveness long term isn't
going to be there. Unless, youknow, you have the your, your
small groups here have your oneon ones that you're walking with
people for the long haul. Sothat's good. A chai is always
gonna be better than AI. That'strue. Craig, if you could go
back to your 21 year old self,what advice would you give?
Craig Detweiler (45:39):
I would say probably say, I don't know, slow
down isn't that's maybe toostrong. Because it's good. It's
good to have youthfulenthusiasm. I would simply say
you don't need to hurry. Youdon't need to hurry. There's
plenty of time. For whateverthat, that thing is that you
(46:03):
feel like you need to get to. Itmay come to you faster than you
pursuing it. Self. Yeah. So it'sokay, young man. Just slow down,
relax. There's plenty of time.
Joshua Johnson (46:20):
That's good.
Usually, when we hurry, we makea lot more mistakes. You could
be quick, if you go fast withouthurting. So that's really good
advice to not hurry. I don'tthink any of us need to hurry.
Before we get going. Anythingyou've been reading or watching
lately, you could recommend
Craig Detweiler (46:43):
while a lot of the things I like, you know,
they're hard, they're hardthings to watch. You think about
the shows that won Emmys thisyear, they were series like
beef, and the bear that startwith a lot of anger, a lot of
(47:03):
profane ranting at each other,which I think is actually a fair
reflection of our culturalmoment. It's, it is a lot of
reactive anger all day on almostevery channel. But both of those
shows, the longer you stick withthem, the more you start to
(47:24):
empathize with the people andyou see the pain behind the
anger. And you see thepossibility of healing within
it. But you have to put in likethree or four hours of, of
dealing with the pain beforeyou're kind of like I don't
know, if I like these people.
And then suddenly there's aglimmer of humanity, and you go
all away. Okay, maybe they'renot so different than I am, oh,
(47:48):
maybe I actually am a little bitlike they are. And, and then
suddenly, that empathy starts totransform into something else.
In terms of solidarity andunderstanding, and then you
suddenly you know, there's somegrace notes within both of those
shows where, you know, you havepeople breaking down in church,
and listening to Amazing Grace,and you have an people
(48:12):
discovering the powerful, right,and then you have, you know,
moments of, of what kind ofthese chefs realize that they're
capable of, and I'm not justchurning out the daily beef, you
know, but on the bear, I'mactually creating true art and
artisan ship rooted inhospitality. And so as metaphors
for how we need to love and carefor people and even how we set
(48:38):
the table for people in our inour sacred settings. I found
both of them deeply inspiring.
Joshua Johnson (48:46):
Yeah. Yeah, those are great, great
recommendations, I highlyrecommend both of them. They're
really good. They are hard.
You're right. They're hardwatches sit through, but there
is that, that Grace at the endthose notes that have humanity,
and artistry at the end thatreally, really get to you. And
you know, because if you look atthe Bible, there's all sorts of
(49:09):
that in there as well. There'sthis difficult human emotions
that are are there. Sosometimes, as we we need to be
uncomfortable, and to sit withthe uncomfortable so can move us
into a better spot. I want toknow, you know, as you were just
at Sundance, did you seeanything there that you're
(49:31):
really excited to getdistribution come out?
Craig Detweiler (49:35):
There were several films that were just
devastatingly beautiful. There'sa documentary called daughters
that will show up on Netflixlater this year, that the
logline below will sort of tellyou a little bit about it. It is
(49:55):
what happens at a daddy daughterdance in a prison, you have
incarcerated fathers, whathappens when their daughters
come to visit them? And you Imean, you can just imagine the
swirl up of emotions, right? Ihave not wept at a documentary
(50:16):
ever in my life, both themoments of disappointment and,
and pain, and also the healingand the joy of reunion. It's
just super powerful. So that'scalled daughters. And that's
coming out. And we are sometimesin 2024. And then there's
(50:38):
another one called Ebola andwhich I think pertains a bit to
what we're talking about withoutus creativity. It's about a
gamer, who was also severelyhandicapped, and cracked in his
body in physical life, but hewas able to be very active on
(50:58):
why why? And, and so it's abouthis parents essentially
discovering his robustinterpersonal relationships
online. And so in many ways itdignifies that that that
Metaverse ministry that some ofthose folks you're talking
about, have undoubtedlyexperienced that it shows to
(51:19):
those who are like, What do youmean, you have friends online,
or that you've never met? Whatdo you mean, you you know, have
a crew, you know, in World ofWarcraft that are, you know,
your best friends that thatdoesn't make any sense, while
this film shows you how that canbe the case. And that those
exchanges can be filled withreal caring, and support for
(51:40):
each other. Even if you've neverbeen face to face. And so
that's, that's evil and has alsobeen bought by by Netflix. And
so it'll be out sometime thisyear for everybody to see.
Great.
Joshua Johnson (51:56):
Well, Craig, how could people get out get on his
creativity? And then where wouldyou like to point people to? How
can they connect with you? Um,
Craig Detweiler (52:03):
yeah, honest, creativity is definitely
available wherever find or lessfine books are sold, whether
that means Amazon or Barnes andNoble, or, you know, directly
from the church Publishing Groupwebsite. I think that put it
together. And, yeah, I'm onTwitter and Instagram and all
(52:27):
those places. My daughter said,I spent too much time. Facebook
is still I've heard that bedexists somewhere. So there's
still I'm still on Facebook, youknow, for all of the other
grandparents. To join. Join me.
I haven't crossed over to Tiktokyet. I just think it would just
be too tragic. I need somebodylike Martin Scorsese, his
(52:49):
daughter, you know, has, hasshown him how to how to be cool
on Tik Tok. I need I need mydaughter to take me under under
her wing. But I think shedoesn't have enough patience
with tick tock either. So. Sodon't look for me on tick tock,
unless you want to make adigital version of me. And then
you can do whatever you want tome. And through me, I guess.
Joshua Johnson (53:11):
Well, Craig, thank you so much for this
conversation as we're walkedthrough creativity, and what
does it look like to be open andreceive from the Holy Spirit and
then perceive what is going onin the world pick that one thing
that we want to focus on tostart to, to walk our creative
selves out so that we caninteract with the world and help
others start to perceive what isgoing on to move to a space that
(53:37):
is not just machine learning andgenerated, but a space where it
is interacting with the worldwith one another and moving from
a place of difficulty andhardship. And to a place of joy
and some grace, in the midst ofour pain and our sorrows. Craig,
this is great, this fantasticconversation. I'm really excited
(54:00):
to go out and be creative andstart to pursue. What does it
look like to build something inthis world? That is not just a
reflection of what I can find onchat. GPT so thank you, Greg.
Craig Detweiler (54:15):
Hey, Joshua, keep up the great work. Keep
shifting culture.
Joshua Johnson (54:19):
All right. Thank you so much. Yep.
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