March 26, 2024 • 54 mins
In this episode, Charles Martin and I explore the crucifixion of Jesus and its profound impact on his life and faith. Charles shares a powerful personal experience encountering the site of Jesus' scourging in Jerusalem, which gave him new insight into both God's wrath towards sin and his limitless love shown through Christ's sacrifice. We talk about struggling to comprehend the depth of Jesus' suffering and why he endured it, as well as the hope, grace and restoration available to all through faith in him. We also talk about the importance of community, narrative and remembering Jesus' cross. Join arms with us as we go on pilgrimage towards the cross.
Charles Martin is a New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of over twenty books. Charles and his wife, Christy, live in Jacksonville, Florida where you might find him bow hunting, working out, or doing Tae Kwon Do with his three boys.
Charles' Book:
It is Finished
Charles' Website:
www.charlesmartinbooks.com
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles Martin (00:00):
He didn't just start here on earth born to
(00:02):
marry, he was the king on athrone seated at the right end
of God, in perfect union,perfect unity with the Father
surrounded by hundreds ofmillions of angels. And around
him, the other 12 rulers are ontheir face having cast their
crowns at his feet. And he takesa look down at us at the problem
of mankind. And it's not that herealizes because he knew, but
(00:26):
there was a time at which hesaid, Dad, I gotta go rescue
mankind because they will neverbe able to make payment. And
that's a wrong way to say it.
Because they established thisGod the Father established this
before the foundation of theworld. So it's like A Wrinkle in
Time thing. I can't even wrap myhead around. But whatever the
case is, there was a point inwhich Jesus stood up and took
(00:47):
off his crown and laid his diethim in the corner and gave his
ring back to his dad and tookoff his priestly and Royal Guard
dressed, undressed down to aloincloth, and took a swan dive
out of heaven to come here on aprisoner exchange for you and
me.
Joshua Johnson (01:16):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson, go to
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(01:39):
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(01:59):
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welcome. If you want to digdeeper, or find us on social
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clips and quotes and interactwith all of you. Previous guests
on the show have included Brianzahnd, Josh White and Liam
burns. You can go back andlisten to those episodes and
(02:20):
more. But today's guest isCharles Martin Charles Martin is
a New York Times and USA Todaybest selling author of over 20
books Charles's wife Christielive in Jacksonville, Florida,
where you might find him bowhunting, working out or doing
Taekwondo with his three boys.
This was such a greatconversation with Charles. While
(02:41):
we explore the crucifixion ofJesus and his profound impact on
Charles's life and faith.
Charles shares a powerfulpersonal experience encountering
the sight of Jesus's scourgingin Jerusalem, which gave him new
insight into both God's wrathtoward sin, and his limitless
love shown through Christ'ssacrifice. We talked about
struggling to comprehend thedepth of Jesus's suffering, and
why he endured it as well as thehope the grace and restoration
(03:04):
available to all of us throughfaith in Him. We also talked
about the importance ofcommunity narrative and
remembering Jesus's cross. Sojoin arms with us as we go on
pilgrimage towards the cross.
Here's my conversation withCharles Martin. Charles, welcome
(03:25):
to shifting culture reallyexcited to have you on thank you
so much for joining me. Hey,thanks for making room
appreciate it. Yeah, of course,you know, as an introduction,
and to you and an introductionto relate the cross and
crucifixion of Jesus and wherewe're headed today. I want to
know where has the crucifixionwhere's the cross of Jesus
(03:45):
intersected in your own life?
Charles Martin (03:47):
Let me let me back up just a just a couple of
years. I was. I've been toIsrael six times. I love it. I
love the people. I love thecountry. I love the topography,
geography, I really love thefood. Man, you get me near some
shawarma, and it is all over.
And I just I just love it. Buton my third trip there, we
managed to get a ticket downbelow the Western Wall to the
(04:09):
Herodian road which sits about30 feet below. You know where
people stand today. And withoutgoing into a lot of detail. We
know it's Herodian because ofthe stamp the border, we know is
the lowest thing you can'texcavate any lower than that
because if you do, you hit therock of Mount Moriah and this
particular road runs north tosouth along the western wall and
(04:31):
it runs basically from pilotspraetorium or the soldiers
Garrison all the way down to thesouthwest corner of the Temple
Mount and basically sort ofended or came pretty close to
the steps that lead out of thehigh priests house. typhus,
kyphosis. And we had been we'vebeen in the Galilee and fallen
(04:52):
steps of Jesus and we finallyended up in Jerusalem like we
always do. It's pilgrimage youknow, we always were always we
sit as we lay And we'refollowing Jesus, but we're
always doing it with an eye tothe cross. I mean, that's he's
already said his face for that.
So we're just following him. Andyou know, so everything leads to
Jerusalem. And we get there.
We've been through the garden,we've been through the Mount of
(05:14):
Olives, we had stood on thesouthern steps, we've been the
Caiaphas house. And then thatevening, we gotten a ticket to
go down in this excavation, thatwas a recent thing. They had
uncovered this road. And theyhad uncovered what they thought
was the soldiers Garrison, wherePilate interrogated Jesus and we
wind down, it's about 30 feetbelow and you get down there in
(05:36):
the time it was at lit verywell, I mean, it today, it's
very nicely presented. And it'sa beautiful tour, and everybody
should go do it. But at thetime, it was like, you know, a
light bulbs hanging hanging bywires that weren't all that, you
know, anyway, we get down there,and the stones are really big
and smooth, and they're wagon orwagon wheel, tracks grooves in
the stone, and we get down towhere they thought the Gearson
(06:01):
was. And there's this hole inthe stone, it's about 14 inches,
maybe 12 inches in diameter. Andwhat we learned from Roman
record is that the soldierswould wedge a post into that
hole. And they would lash theprisoner to the posts, and there
they would scourge Him. And weknow that they did that there.
Because right next to the holeis a thing carved in the stone
that's maybe two to three incheswide, and it looks like a like a
(06:25):
small gutter. And it's a bloodgroove that it was meant to
catch what was spilling out ofthe man last to the post and
they it goes over to a gutterthat leads out and then just
about 12 feet away. If you'restanding over that hole, about
12 feet away, there's a seriesof 12 like 1210 or 12, vertical
(06:46):
and horizontal lines looks likea big tic tac toe board. But
it's more lines. And we knowfrom history that that is the
residue of a game played byRoman soldiers called the Kings
game. And there they wouldgamble for the belongings of the
dude strapped to the post. Wegot down there at night. And I
(07:08):
put all these pieces together.
And I remember staring down atthat hole. And I know I'm 54
I've known the Lord a long time.
That does not mean I've alwaysbeen obedient. I do not have the
monopoly on that I am a wretchedblack hearted senator. But I do
love the Lord. And it juststruck me as I'm staring down
over that thing. Like thisreally happened. I write stories
(07:31):
for a living. I mean, you seethese books, these are my models
behind me. I've written 18novels. So I have somewhat vivid
imagination. But for somereason, the Lord did a thing in
me where it took it out of thisstory. And I just beat and I
just crushed me and I remembersort of hitting the stone and I
(07:53):
just wanted to put my palm onthe stone. I just wanted to
touch it. And I began having aconversation with the Lord that
sounded like, what kind of keendoes this like really, because I
know me and I'm not worth therescue. And I'm not trying to
play superficially humble, I'mjust this that can be exchanged
is not equal. And I just beganasking the Lord through tears.
(08:17):
I'm like, really why? And he Ijust I'm not, I'm not telling
you. I heard him like you and Iare hearing each other's voices
right now. But it was more likean impression. And I felt like
he just locked arms with me. Andhe said, Hey, walk with me back
to my cross. And I'll show you.
And so that you asked about myintersection with the cross. And
(08:40):
that was a big one for me. And Ibegan from there I began sort of
wrestling with I wonder if Icould wonder if I were if I
could ever tell that story in myown way and in my own style. And
so the idea for this books werea bubbled up and out of that
moment. I was afraid to write inabout two years. And then I sat
(09:01):
down to write it. It took meabout nine months. And in those
nine months, my intersectionwith Him and His Cross was about
a daily sort of thing. And twothings happened in that time
with him. And I'm praying ithappens with people who read my
book, not I mean, not that I'mtrying to control the outcome,
but it was beautiful. What hedid, the first thing he did was
(09:23):
I'd really saw that the onlything I bring to the cross, the
only thing I don't bring goodwork so don't bring good
intentions. There's nothingabout me good. The only thing I
bring is the sin that causes meto need it in the first place.
And he allowed me to see thatlike you allowed Charles to see
Charles really clearly. And it'snot pretty. And if y'all knew my
(09:46):
thoughts you would agree withme. And but he didn't leave me
there John tells us that we getthe grace and truth are poured
out on the lips of Jesus. And soif we're getting truth we know
it's wrapped in grace and it'snot cheap grace. It's the
priceless kind because it costhim everything. aiming to
provide it. And so he met meevery day, when I would walk
back to his cross literally,with the truth of me, which I
(10:09):
asked him for, and then I hit myface and repentance. And I still
do. And he met me with thissweet grace in the same way that
he does with Peter on the beachafter his resurrection is like,
hey, just follow me. So, I don'tknow, that's a sort of a
roundabout answer to yourquestion. But that's, that's all
I got.
Joshua Johnson (10:28):
I love it. I love it. But so as as you're
going down, you know, 30 feetbelow the Wailing Wall, you're,
you're sitting there, you'relooking at this whole, you're
going by chi Ephesus house, andyou know, as chi fest goes to
pilot, and you know, pilotssaying, you know, should we kill
your king, it's basicallysaying, We have no king, but
(10:51):
Caesar. And he's saying, we'regoing to forego the kingdom of
God. And we're going to say, wehave the kingdom of the world.
And that's, we know what poweris. And then Jesus himself goes
to the cross and obliterates,you know, the kingdom of the
world brings about this thiskingdom of God through the
(11:14):
Scorch, and the the ugly,gruesome crucifixion. I mean,
it's a it's a torture place. Imean, it's, as you you were
broken. I mean, he's, he'stortured. And on a cross for us,
how do we reconcile a God thatcomes here and puts himself
(11:37):
through all of that, for us?
When we're living in this world,where it's all you know, what
coppice was all about was powerand earthly power. But as
something different, how do westart to approach this cross,
and this God, and this Jesusthat we have, that would
(11:58):
actually put himself throughthis?
Charles Martin (12:02):
One of the things I felt like he did with
me in this book, and a publisherlabeled it sort of like a
devotional, I think that's howit's classed. You know, if you
look it up on any of the sales,whatever it's, it's, you find a,
I don't know, I'm not adevotional guy, and I'm not
knocking them. Please note herethat I just, it's never been my
thing. I grew up on OswaldChambers. But that's about all I
know about it by the devotional.
But as I got into it, what itfelt like for me was a
(12:28):
pilgrimage. There's this psalm,I'm gonna mess it up. But I
think it's 84. And it says,Blessed is the man whose
strength is in you, whose heartis set on pilgrimage. And I
found that as I sort of got intothis, and I was trying to
understand, I was just askingsimple questions like, really,
Lord, why. And I felt like hetook me back to what he did, he
(12:50):
took me back to the garden, andwe sort of spent some time
studying the story of thegarden, because in God's economy
in his kingdom, he doesn't justbrush off sin it, he hates it.
And he's just and so forwhatever reason, and I can't
pretend to tell you that reason,I don't know, when we get to
(13:11):
heaven. He'll explain it to usthough, the best analogy I can
come up with is, if you and Ihad, you know, a five year old
girl, or young child and or boy,and he or she was abducted, and
that person took them someplacehorrible and did inexplicable,
horrible things. And thenseveral weeks later, they were
caught and brought into, youknow, jail, prison, whatever.
(13:34):
And eventually, the day for thetrial came. How would you feel
if that person who had committedsuch evil walked in and said to
the judge, Judge, I was justhaving a bad day, man, it just,
it was just, you know, there wasone thing led to another and he
and then the judge, afterhearing this story says, Look,
man, I've had those kinds ofdays too. So look, let's just,
(13:56):
let's just call it, let's justcall it square, and don't do it
again. Well, you and I wouldcome unglued. And the reason we
would come unglued is becausethere is a thing in us that
knows and wants justice forevil. And that thing in US
doesn't start with us. It startswith him. So when Adam and Eve
(14:17):
fell and sinned, God coveredtheir sin with the skin of an
animal so that we know from themoment sin occurred, there was a
covering of animal skin for thatsin. It cost the animal
everything, to shed its blood torid itself of its skin and cover
(14:43):
them. So throughout the historyof the nation of Israel, we see
the payment for sin against thewrath of God which is stored up.
The difference though, prior toJesus is that All of the payment
for sin, the lambs sacrificed onthe altar, especially the Day of
(15:05):
Atonement only covers that sinfor one year. It's a covering.
And then we see Jesus who walksup at about age 30. And John,
his cousin says, Behold, theLamb of God who takes away the
sins of the world. This is atotally different thing. And so,
the difference in Jesus, theshed blood of Jesus versus a
(15:27):
sacrificial lamb, is that wedon't have to go back to the
cross every year. And Jesus bere crucified every year. There
was one payment for sin whichsatisfied forever the wrath of
God. Jesus made propitiation onour behalf, which just blew me
away when I pressed into it. Andyou and you talk about the
(15:53):
scourging will the Romans, theRomans perfected both the
scourging and crucifixionbecause the Scourge is like a,
you know, a piece of wood that'sabout four feet long, and this
guy like four or five foottassels, and on the end of it
are these pieces of rock andstone and iron. And so when it
is slung at this is not anIndiana Jones whip is is a thing
that when it's slung, it wrapsaround the person and it embeds
(16:17):
in the flesh. And when it ispulled off, it removes that
flesh. This is why Isaiah sayshe became unrecognizable as a
man. So by the time Jesus isforced marched out the Damascus
Gate carrying his crossbar, he'sbeen shredded, he's hamburger,
he did his he doesn't even looklike Jesus anymore. That's why
they tap Simon until asking ortelling him command him carry
(16:39):
this for him, because he's notgoing to make it, then they post
him up on this tree, the twogreatest needs in life. So I'm
told our air and water afterthere are needs after that, but
without those life is reallyshort. And on the cross Jesus
can't get either. Because hedrowns in his own lung fluid.
And because he'd been beat, andas all of that flesh removed, I
(17:01):
don't know if you've ever reallybeen really thirsty. I mean,
we've all been thirsty to someextent, but I don't know just a
picture of Jesus shreddedhamburger unrecognizable. Making
payment that we could not pay,showed me that gee, the God the
Father is really serious abouthis wrath. And he's not just
brushed it under the rug, whichalso shows you the limitless
(17:24):
love of Jesus, which we clueinto a little bit in John 17,
when he says, so that the lovewith which You have loved Me
might be in then, and I in them,it's a beautiful commerce.
Joshua Johnson (17:38):
That's heartbreaking. And that is
disturbing. And it's beautifulat the same time. It's, it's a
paradox. You know, you'relooking at the this ugly cross,
but you're looking at like themost beautiful thing that's
happened in human history. And
Charles Martin (17:56):
you got to ask, and one of the things I began
asking is, he didn't just starthere on Earth, born to marry, he
was the king on a throne seatedat the right end of God, in
perfect union, perfect unitywith the Father surrounded by
hundreds of millions of angels,and around him, the other 12
rulers are on their face, havingcast their crowns at his feet.
(18:17):
And he takes a look down at usat the problem of mankind. And
it's not that he realizesbecause he knew, but there was a
time at which he said, Dad, Igotta go rescue mankind because
they will never be able to makepayment. And that's a wrong way
to say it. Because theyestablish this God the Father
(18:39):
established this before thefoundation of the world. So it's
like A Wrinkle in Time thing. Ican't even wrap my head around.
But whatever the case is, therewas a point in which Jesus stood
up and took off his crown andlaid his diet him in the corner
and gave his ring back to hisdad and took off his priestly
and Royal Guard dressed,undressed down to a loincloth
and took a swan dive out ofheaven to come here on a
(18:59):
prisoner exchange for you andme. That started getting to me
when I began trying to unwrapthat.
Joshua Johnson (19:06):
Wow. Wow. And so as you're walking through the
these 40 days, as you'rewriting, it has finished. What
was one of the, one of the daysthat you take us through that
was really impactful for you,that you you sat with and you
were kind of in awe of, of Jesuswhile you were writing that day.
Charles Martin (19:29):
The word to tell us die, we translate as it is
finished. And that is true, it'scorrect translation. I am told
I'm not a great Hebrew and Greekscholar, but I am told that a
more accurate translation is itis perfectly perfect or it is
completely complete. So I beganlooking back into the story of
(19:50):
one one when was when were weone was mankind in perfect unity
and complete unit Well,obviously in the garden, and
then, you know, granted And I amoutside of scripture here. So
you got to understand that I'mand I admit that in the book,
but there was a point at whichthe angel marched Adam and Eve,
who were real people with realfunny bonds and real tears, and
(20:13):
really motions, walked them outof the garden. The lock Shut up.
And I think they had twoemotions. One was all my what
have we just done? And two, howdo we get back there? Because at
this point, everything changesthe world is going to hell in a
(20:33):
handbasket. They they have gonefrom perfection, to
imperfection, from blessing tocurse, from life to death, from
food that never rots to maggotsfrom no death to one son killing
another and burying him. Andthen think about it, either Adam
(20:54):
or Eve buried the other. So theythink they went from everything
perfect to this fall in place.
And it has in it is the desireof the Father, to return us to
that place. That's why it tellsthe nation of Israel and Exodus
I haven't brought you to myself.
And then Jesus comes on thisrescue mission. And what he's
(21:16):
trying to return us to, isperfect unity. And that's why he
says, I'm the way the truth andthe life no one comes to the
Father except through me thefather's to the destination. But
we can't get there withouthaving satisfied the wrath of
God. So Jesus said his mercy,makes payment We can't pay and
(21:36):
offers us access both to theFather and His love for us. And
somewhere early in the first. Idon't know, seven days or
something of this book, I sortof I just sort of had this
realization that the Lord GodMost High, has spent all of
(21:57):
human history trying to bring usback to Himself. And that's a
crazy, furious kind of love thatI don't think we understand.
Joshua Johnson (22:08):
How does that change the way that we live in
the world when we start to get aglimpse of that furious, crazy
love that He has for us?
Charles Martin (22:18):
Well, sometimes when I'm talking to people like
you, and you ask me questions,how should we, as there feel a
little bit above my paygrade?
Because you're asking me totranslate what he's done in me
to all of us. So let me let melet me just tell you about me.
And the whoever's listening cantranslate it to themselves. And
so I, I walk here with fear andtrembling, but what he what he
(22:41):
did with me, as I came to have atruer revelation of who he is
through his word, and by thepower of his Spirit, I came to
see the extent to which he hasgone, continues to go and will
continue to go to snatch me backout of the kingdom of darkness.
(23:04):
And when I saw the inequality ofwhat he gets in the exchange, me
for him, it just, I can't tellyou the number of days I sat in
my chair, which is right overhere, right on a lap desk. And I
would find myself weeping.
(23:24):
Because he just it's, it's a nomatter. No matter how far I have
straight in my life. There is noplace on planet earth that the
blood of Jesus can't snatch meback. And I put this in the book
I said, there's a said if youhear anything I write in this
(23:44):
whole thing. However many pagesand words that is, if you
remember anything from thisbook, remember this there is
more grace in Jesus than sin andUS period. And the hit you have
an enemy that wants you to notbelieve that. And there I've
talked to the guys in prison andeven folks in you know, lifers
and death row, and they can't,they can't understand that God
(24:09):
would love them. I got a crazyletter A couple months ago from
a lady on death row. We all knowher story was in the news. It's
horrible. It's it's horrible.
It's it's one of the worstthings I've ever heard. And she
landed there. And when we weredead in our trespasses and sins,
(24:31):
He made us alive or he didsomething in her when she landed
behind those bars and he madeher alive and he brought a dead
woman to life. And she lovesJesus. And she's like crazy
repentant. And she wrote me aletter and she knows she
deserves to be there. And she's,you know, she's not trying to
make excuses. But she said,look, here's the thing. If Jesus
(24:53):
Christ is not the solution tothe problem of mankind, there is
no such illusion is right.
There's absolutely more graceand mercy in him than sin in us.
And we have an enemy that isworking really hard to make sure
we do not believe that.
Joshua Johnson (25:13):
So as we're walking in this pilgrimage
towards the cross, and we'restarting to realize that there's
more grace, in Jesus, there issin and us. How do we as people,
or how have you in community,had the embodied presence of
Jesus in others to remind us, alet's start to shift our focus
(25:34):
back to Jesus because the enemyis here to distract us. The
enemy is here to steal, kill,and destroy. And so we I think
we need each other to remind us,a Jesus is here, there's more
grace there for us. Let's let'sreturn back to him. How can we
what are some steps for us toremind ourselves and community.
Charles Martin (26:00):
One things I love about letters of Paul is he
kind of cut to the chase prettyquick. And if you read the
letters of Paul, he, he's alwaysstarts off with the grace of
Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
And then he thanks God forwhoever he's writing to, except
one letter and the Letter to theGalatians. He skips the thanking
God at all. He basically spendstwo chapters remenham A new
(26:20):
orifice. And by the time you getto chapter three, he says
foolish Galatians, who hasbewitched you before whose eyes
Jesus Christ was personallyportrayed as crucified? And what
we learned about the church inGalatia, is that these are these
were eyewitnesses to the arrest,crucifixion, death, burial and
resurrection of Jesus. They sawit with their own eyes, they
(26:44):
heard the man speak. And Paul isbasically saying, Hey, yo, guys,
have you have you forgotten? Yousaw this man die? You heard what
he said, You saw him return? Howhave you what what has caused
you to take your eyes just alittle bit off because a little
bit here is a whole lot downthere. And he we learned that
(27:05):
they they've taken their eyesoff the cross. And one of the
things that I love about all ispolling, the poll never did. He
said I desired to know nothingamongst you accept Jesus Christ
and Him crucified, which thinkabout that from it. Like all the
things Jesus did. I mean, he fed5000 He he'll the paralytic, the
lime, excuse me, the lime, theblind, the lame, the Lazarus. I
(27:27):
mean, how about Jesus Christ andhit him raise a lot. But no,
because without the cross, noneof that matters. And he could
have said, Jesus Christ and theend that in the empty tomb,
which is the singular basis forour statement of faith, but but
before you get to the tomb, itwalks underneath the shadow of
(27:49):
this cross. Without the cross,there is no empty tomb, there is
no payment, there's nosatisfying the wrath of God.
Allah by the time it gets to theend of Galatians, somewhere in
the middle part of chapter six,he says, God forbid that I
should boast except in the crossof our Lord and Savior. So you
ask about what can we do incommunity and I don't know I got
(28:10):
a I got a band of brothers I dolife with it's 11. Guys, we've
done life together for about 15years. And the Lord has done
beautiful things through us.
He's healed us. He's deliveredus. He's met us and our grief,
he's joined us and our joy. Hehas used each of us to point out
(28:30):
in each of us, where we'remissing something. And there's
scripture, Paul says, There's ascripture that says, I think, as
Paul says, is the kindness ofGod that leads us to repentance.
And he's used us because of ourfriendship and our brotherhood
and our love for one anotherthat, that we have hearts to be
able to hear each other most ofthe time. I'm not always meek
(28:51):
and teachable, but I'm workingon it. But he's used us it
because we trust each other. Andwe love each other. We're able
to say hard things, or at leastask questions that allow us to
see maybe what we don't. And oneof the things I love about doing
life with them is on most nightswhen we get together, our
(29:14):
prayers, and EBITDA inevitablystart with real, real, gut
wrenching repentance. Justwanting to be authentic with the
Lord and not show up with a liebetween us and Him. And so I
(29:37):
don't know how people make it inthis life or in this walk of
faith without brothers or Idon't know I don't know how you
do that. I don't know how youdon't I mean, the paralytic did
not get to Jesus without fourfriends. So I don't know how you
know, my pastor job. He talksabout the format toters I don't
know how you get through lifewithout format toters. And I'm
(29:58):
grateful that the Lord has givenme some bro others who don't
judge me, but that walkalongside me. And, and they'll
love me and each other to youknow, through all can be
difficult stuff.
Joshua Johnson (30:13):
Now, I'm so glad you have that because I think
some people don't and they needit. And so I think you know, my
encouragement to anybody who'slistening is to go seek that
out. And not just wait forsomebody to approach you but
seek others out so that you canstart to walk with them, towards
Jesus towards the cross ofJesus. And you know, one of the
things that you do really well,is that you write stories, you
(30:38):
are a narrative person. And Ithink one thing that really
helped me see Jesus in a newlight was to look at the
narrative of Scripture, and tolook at the whole story arc, and
not just, you know, knowing thethe doctrine of things, but
(30:58):
actually seeing the whole storyplay out. How, what's the
importance of narrative andstory as we approach and go on
pilgrimage towards the cross ofJesus? Well, let's
Charles Martin (31:10):
first start with the danger of narrative and
story because there's anadmonition in the somewhere
about the all the middle ofRevelation, I'll forget the
chapter and but there's anadmonition to guys like me, who
come along and try and write andtell this story. If anything, if
we add anything to it, it's notit does not end well for us. So
I've always started out my, mydesire to try and tell the story
(31:33):
of Jesus with Lord. Please don'tlet me get outside of have you
helped me figure out how to usethe Scripture you've given us
to, to interpret the Scriptureyou've given us. And also think
I'm pretty clear in the placeswhere I'm trying to tell the
story that I say, look,Scripture says this. But let me
(31:56):
let me try and help you see itfrom this perspective. And one
example would be this when Jesussays, I thirst to satisfy all
scripture, which is Psalm 69. Itsays that there was a jar of
sour wine nearby and thesoldiers put a sponge on a stick
and held it to his mouth. Well,you can read that. And you can
(32:16):
think that that's somewhat of amerciful act. And I've heard
that taught as a merciful thingthat had mercy on Jesus. Well,
if you look at their behavior,in the moments and hours prior,
there's nothing merciful aboutthe soldiers treating of Jesus,
you also have to understand thatthe Roman army, at the time of
the life of Jesus is the largestarmy in the history of the
(32:37):
world. And a large army has tobe fed, a Fed army has to go to
the bathroom. And that can causesanitary problems if they're not
careful. So that when some Romansoldiers were conscripted or
taken in or assigned, given,they were given sandals, they
were given certain type ofarmor, they were certainly given
a sword and a spear. They werealso given three other things.
(32:59):
They were given a jar ofvinegar, they were given a
stick, and they were given asponge, and then they were
instructed with how to cleantheir backsides because in the
first century, vinegar is acommonly used antiseptic and
astringent for most everything.
So the reason the Roman army wasso successful at one of the
reasons and so successful andlong campaigns is because they
knew how to maintain a sanitsanitary army. Well, that sponge
(33:22):
on a stick has a name, it'scalled a TR Storium. And we see
this throughout Roman record andhistory. So the fact that it's
sitting there not too far fromthe cross is not a wonder. It's
like first century toilet paper.
When Jesus says, I thirst in myopinion, some mocking soldier
(33:49):
laughing, and dips his chairStorium in feces laced vinegar,
and shoves it down the throat ofJesus here drink this. That's a
very different look on the lastfew moments of Jesus life. Now,
do I know 100%? Certain thatthat is what happened? No, but
(34:10):
I'm pretty sure I tend to thinkso. Also think I'm pretty safe
and that in adding thathistorical record to how we look
at that, does it in the grandscheme of things does it matter?
No, but it does give us a viewof Jesus that they're still
mocking Him. And and even evenpast that, I mean, think about
(34:32):
it. Think about the shame he'she's also naked. All these
pictures that we have orpaintings that we have of Jesus.
I like it's not true. He'stotally naked. We know that from
Scripture. It says that the thewoman stood at a distance, the
only woman to come close was hismother. Why did they do that?
Because he's naked. They'retrying to shame him. And so
there is Jesus, the Son of God.
He's the brightness of theFather's glory. He upholds all
(34:56):
things by the Word of His power.
He fashioned you and me from thedust. He's strong 10 trillion
stars in the night sky and callshim by name, he told the ocean
where to stop, he told themountains Hi. And yet he
willingly allows his very owncreation. To rip him mercilessly
(35:21):
undress him nail into a tree,and then shove feces down his
throat, while he's drowning inhis own lung fluid, carrying
literally every sin for allmankind for all time on the
weight of his shoulders. And thething that I can't understand,
(35:42):
and I probably won't until I getto Heaven is that he didn't call
down heaven, he could havecalled down all those angels. He
could have thrown lightningbolts with accuracy. And he
didn't. And that's a crazy countof mercy that I just don't
understand. I want to, and Iknow that he, he extended that
then and he continues to extendit. Now I left to the writing of
(36:05):
this book was Lord, I know thatI don't love you. The way that I
know that I don't love you in myheart in a way that I really
want to in my head. And I wantto. So would you please do the
thing in me? That lets me walkin greater obedience, greater
faith? And lets me just do that.
I want to, I want to walk withyou and hear you. Will you help
(36:27):
me do that? I don't know how wegot there. But that's somehow
you asked me something. And Itried to answer.
Joshua Johnson (36:39):
Well, this is what I want want to say I think
facing the grotesque nature ofthe cross is important. I think
a lot of people try to sanitizethe cross to make it more
palatable for us to talk about,you know, every every Sunday. So
(37:00):
what does it do to us how, whyis facing the grotesque nature
of the cross. So important?
Charles Martin (37:07):
Well, if we can whitewash it, it doesn't hurt as
much. I mean, if we can, youknow, if you can just sort of
hang him up there and let himbleed out. You know, it's just a
I don't know, maybe it's amundane, Friday execution. I
don't know. Here's part of thepicture, though, that I just
(37:28):
this one got to me. Jesus is inthe middle. There are two
thieves on either side,murderers, whatever they are.
One is railing at him cussinghim out. If you are you say you
are save us. The guy on theother side, shakes his head and
says, Dude, we are getting ourjust reward. We deserve this.
(37:48):
Can't you see that this man doesnot. And it just blew me away
that that thief on the cross isa couple feet from Jesus. And he
has a bird's eye view ofliterally the redemption of
mankind. He has a perspectivethat no one in history ever had.
And something happens in himsomething, something happened
(38:11):
where the day before, whatevercrime he committed, that was his
life's plan. And it ended him onthis cross right next to Jesus,
which has been the planthroughout the ages for him to
be there. And then somethinghappened in his heart and you
hear it in his language. Hesays, Lord, when you come into
your kingdom, we remember me.
And there's a submission of hisheart to the Lordship of Jesus.
(38:33):
And we know, we know somethingabout that Joker that cannot be
said of anybody else'sscripture. And that is this he
right? This second is in heavenwith Jesus. Now, as I unpacked
this, what did he do to earnthat? Or what did he do to get
that? Well, he didn't join adiscipleship group didn't walk
(38:53):
out in front of the church hasno church membership, he can't
tell you squat about theChristology or any of Jesus or
the doctrine of Scripture, andhe wouldn't even know how to
spell it. But he didn't, hecan't, this guy can't even raise
his hands in worship, becausetheir last two have crossbar.
The only thing he does is hebelieves that Jesus is who He
(39:19):
says He is. And that he isreturning to his kingdom. And
the only way that thief hasaccess to that kingdom is
submitting wholeheartedly to HisLordship and his righteous
reign. And he does that and it'sa it's a it's the most beautiful
picture because that gives ushope, like all of us think,
(39:40):
well, we have this like Phariseething and as all of us think
that we got to do something,some sort of work plus belief to
really like if you really boilthis down. We you know, the
Scripture says, for everyone whobelieves Well, belief is the key
that gets us access. Well, wethink Well, I got to do this or
I got to do that. And I look,once we fall in love with him,
(40:02):
there should be an obedience ofour heart that comes out of us
and our works are obediencedriven. They are not, you know,
this is James, it's me, show meyour faith without works. I'll
show you my with it. So it's, wefall in love with him. And
there's a thing in us that wewant to be more like him. So we
begin our lives begin lookingbut those things don't get us
access to him. So it was abeautiful thing where I saw this
(40:23):
thief that it just, it takes thepressure off. I'm not I'm not
I'm not. I'm not selling cheapgrace. I am, I am. I am, I am
showing the beautiful Mercy ofJesus on the cross, bringing one
more into His kingdom. And theonly thing that guy did was
believed that Jesus is who Hesays He is. And I just love it
(40:46):
it, it did a thing in me that itreally it kind of like broke
some legalistic chains that Ididn't know I was curi. I would
have told you that I wasn't butit did. It kind of broke some
chains. And I'm not you. I'm notusing that as a license to not
do something or a license tosin. I'm not saying that at all.
(41:07):
It just it was just a beautifulthing where that Joker places
his faith is the Hebrew word ispursue to believe in Jesus.
There's a massive differencebetween believing in and
believing that because thedemons believe that Jesus is the
Son of God, but they ain't gonein the kingdom of heaven.
Joshua Johnson (41:31):
Yeah, even to somebody like you know, Peter,
who believed in Jesus denied himor out of the cross. But you
mentioned, you know, the verybeginning, you mentioned a
little bit about the story ofwhen he was restored back to
Jesus on the beach after theythey went fishing. Can you take
us into that? What happens? Howdo how does the cross of Jesus
(41:55):
there? And how does Jesushimself then restore Peter back
to em, even when there was adenial at the cross?
Charles Martin (42:06):
Let me just say this in and this is this may not
be popular with your listeners.
But here's the truth of thiswhole story with Peter. The
truth is we are all Peter, wehave all denied him 10,000 times
Peter only did it three times.
We've all denied him a month. Solet's don't, let's not try and
put Peter over here that he'ssomehow different that he denied
Jesus. Look, we're all here.
Now, here's the thing about thatstory, or that one of the things
(42:27):
that I think about it is on hison his on his third denial.
Peter is standing around acharcoal fire. And the slave
girl says are you one of Hisfollowers? And Peter says no,
but you got to notice thecharcoal fire because it's only
mentioned twice in scripture.
Jesus is resurrected. Ascrucified, resurrected. He says,
(42:49):
he basically says, Hey, tellPeter, I'm gonna come fly them.
And Peter doesn't feel worthy.
He's wrapped in shame. He doesnot know at one point he was
captain of the team. And then hedenies Jesus and he doesn't feel
worthy to do anything having todo with Jesus says, Look, see
boys later, peace out, I'm goingback to my old way of life. I'm
going fishing, and they don'treally know what to do either.
And so they're just following.
(43:10):
And you find these guys and acouple of boats on the Sea of
Galilee. And Peter is strippeddown to you know, his shorts or
whatever efficient and they seeJesus on the beach. And that is
someone's and somebody says itis the Lord. And then notice
what Peter does, says he puts onhis cloak. Now who when they're
about to go swimming, getsdressed. He's in shame. So he's
(43:33):
trying to cover up he gets tothe beach. And you see this
beautiful conversation is whatis one of my favorite in all of
Scripture, because it's the itis the most beautiful do over in
the history of do overs. And howdoes Jesus start it with a
charcoal fire on the beach?
Peter lands on the beach, hesmells that charcoal and he's
like, Oh, no, really, we got togo back here. And Jesus takes
him back to the very place ofdenial. And I've heard this talk
(43:56):
where the somebody is taught atsaying that it was a you know,
sort of a pokin Peter in thechest thing like come on, man.
Like why did you deny me feed mysheep? And do you love me and I
don't think that's the way itwent down. I think Jesus made
the fire. I think he cooked thefish. I think Peter sits down
he's probably got his hair overhis eyes. He keys doesn't want
to look at Jesus. He's ashamedthat I think I think Jesus sat
(44:19):
down next to him and in him theplate and put his arm around
him. And I think he probablyleaned in and said, Hey, buddy,
you love me? Oh, yes, Lord, youknow, I love it. Alright, then
feed my sheep. Pierre eats alittle bit. He says Hey, buddy,
you. You love me? Or do you knowthat? Lovey, alright, and Feed
(44:42):
my lambs? What last time he'sprobably finishing up the beat
probably He probably can't evenswallow it because he's got so
much indigestion at this point.
And Jesus says you love me. AndPeter can't even respond to
love. He said, Well, yes, Lord,you know that I filet o or I
like you Yeah, he he's he'strying to just come down and
(45:03):
like, you know, at least I didthis right. And Jesus, I think
he just pushes his forehead upagainst his buddy and he says,
Hey, be my sheep. And then hesays the two words, that Peters
heart is crying out to hear.
Because he doesn't feel worthyto do the thing Jesus is about
to tell him to do. And Jesuslooks at me, says, Peter, follow
me. It's the most beautiful doover ever see the most beautiful
(45:28):
mercy filled conversation ever.
And I think at that moment,Peter probably stood up on the
beach. And just like fist pump,or hug Jesus or something,
because he he's now been broughtback in, and he has been
welcomed back and given ordersto do the thing that he wants to
do, but he just hasn't feltworthy because the enemies will,
(45:50):
you know, eaten his lunch withshame. And so I love that. I
love that picture. I love thatconversation is it's been a big
marker for me. And it's been abig marker for people that I've
I don't have some great bigprison ministry, but I've been
in, you know, a good number. Andif you tell that story in
(46:11):
prison, you will see jacked menwith a bunch of tattoos, weep in
their faces off. Because theenemy tells them they're not
worthy. And the truth is thatthey are so
Joshua Johnson (46:23):
beautiful. It's my favorite story. In Scripture,
it just it I just love thatJesus at the end to swats Abba
barbecue on the beach with hisfriends, and that he restores
Peter, it's just, it's just sucha beautiful story. And it gives
me a greater excuse to havebarbecue. So Amen. So it's good.
(46:45):
You don't what would you? Whathope do you have for your
readers? Get out of it hasfinished? What would you hope
that they get?
Charles Martin (46:53):
A look, the Lord took me on a pilgrimage with
himself. And he revealed himselfto me in ways that I had not
known. And it was a beautifulrevelation. And he did it
through His Word and by thepower of His Spirit. And my
prayer for folks reading this isnot that he reveals to them the
(47:14):
same things he revealed to me,I'm not trying to control the
outcome. Now they know how to dothat. All I know how to do is
lock arms with people and say,Hey, I swapped back to the
cross. And you can see me orwatch me hit my face and cry
out. And then I just want tolike pass you off to the Lord.
And let him do with you whateverhe wants and needs to do in you
(47:34):
so that you might maybe rememberor even know for the first time
who he is. And when I waswrestling with whether or not to
write this and I was probably Iwas probably a freshman probably
afraid, thinking. I don't knowif I could pull it off. I felt
like the Lord said Charles Liu,just lock arms with him and
bring him to me. And I'll takeit from here. It was kind of it
(47:56):
was always kind of funny. He waslike, Wow, Lord, that's a good
idea. So I just that's kind ofbeen my posture just to walk
with me back to the cross. So asI've met with folks, and they
sign this book for folks, and asI pray for folks that are
reading this, and diamond in myprayers, that the Lord will just
meet it. If we had a fresh writerevelation, Scripture inspired
(48:19):
revelation of Jesus. And whatwould it do? Like, what would it
do in us and to us and throughus and for us, and I am so
hungry for that. And I've metpeople who are and so I pray
that I pray that that happens.
Amen.
Joshua Johnson (48:39):
Amen. A couple quick questions. One, Charles,
if he'd go back to your 21 yearold self, what advice would you
give?
Charles Martin (48:47):
Fear is a liar.
And he's a defeated liar. He hasa microphone, and you can choose
whether or not to listen to it.
We walk by faith and not bysight. And without faith, it's
impossible to please Him. Sopunch that joker in the teeth.
And do what requires faith.
Because fear ain't never knownsquat. Nothing, read Hebrews 11
(49:11):
Fear did nothing. Faith stop themouths of lions and return the
dead back to life. So I wouldencourage 21 year old me, man,
don't give fear. Don't let itlive rent free in your head
ever. And it is a spirit and itdoes need to be called out and
(49:32):
named and cast out and rebukedall of that by the Spirit of
God.
Joshua Johnson (49:38):
And that's it.
And we I mean, that's why itsays do not be afraid more than
anything else in Scripture and65 times that and then one for
every day. One for every day. Soperfect. I love that love that
anything you've been reading orwatching lately you could
recommend
Charles Martin (49:56):
No, I'm look, I'm 75% of the way through a
novel, which I had To put onpause for this book to her, so
I'm gonna, we just got back inand hours to couple hours ago
from. So I'm going to, I'm goingto rest up today get back to
that I had been watching orreading anything except what
I've been working on. And yeah,sorry, I got nothing for you. I
(50:19):
would love to sound educatedthere. But no, we're
Joshua Johnson (50:23):
talking about your book is finished. How about
how about a book that you havewritten, you've written at
novels instead? What's one novelthat stands out for you that you
would you would recommend topeople listening,
Charles Martin (50:39):
I wrote a trilogy called the keeper
series, it starts with the waterkeeper than the letter keeper
than the record keeper. So Iwould, I would go to the water
keeper and start there becauseit it's the story of a man who
constantly and in great expenseto himself, leaves the safety of
his community leaves the safetyof the 99 to find the one who is
(51:04):
lost. It's the rescue story.
It's not majorly Christian easy,it's not going to thump you over
the head with an agenda. It'sfun storytelling. But it might
shake some things loose. It'salso pretty darn fast, fast
paced, if I may have myselfsaved, if I may say so myself.
So hold on.
Joshua Johnson (51:25):
Awesome.
Awesome. That's good. How couldpeople connect with you go out
and get this book?
Charles Martin (51:33):
I have a website, Charles Martin
books.com. You can find me allover social media. Yep, those
two. Perfect,
Joshua Johnson (51:42):
well go out and get it has finished. Charles,
this is a fantastic book, Ithank you for going on
pilgrimage, locking arms with meas a reader and bringing me to
the cross. And it's so amazingto be able to sit there at the
cross. And actually, what youdid today in this conversation
(52:06):
to, to encounter the grotesqueaspect of of what Jesus did and
endured on the cross for us,that the love of God would
really go anywhere to find usthat he would go into the depths
of she'll say, find us we can'tescape that love, and we can't.
(52:28):
And the grace of Jesus is somuch greater than any of the sin
that we have. And so thank youfor this conversation. Thank you
for your book. I love walkingthrough it. And so, as we're in
this season, right now, theseason of of Lent, and leading
up to you to Easter, leading toGood Friday, when we're actually
(52:53):
encountered this cross, I justpray that people would start to
dive into it so that they couldstart to go on pilgrimage,
pilgrimage, and journey towardsthe cross and see what Jesus
will do for you. And that soCharles, thank you for this
conversation. Thank you for thisbook. It was fantastic. Thanks
Charles Martin (53:12):
so much for having me. I appreciate you.
He didn't just start here on earth born to
(00:02):
marry, he was the king on athrone seated at the right end
of God, in perfect union,perfect unity with the Father
surrounded by hundreds ofmillions of angels. And around
him, the other 12 rulers are ontheir face having cast their
crowns at his feet. And he takesa look down at us at the problem
of mankind. And it's not that herealizes because he knew, but
(00:26):
there was a time at which hesaid, Dad, I gotta go rescue
mankind because they will neverbe able to make payment. And
that's a wrong way to say it.
Because they established thisGod the Father established this
before the foundation of theworld. So it's like A Wrinkle in
Time thing. I can't even wrap myhead around. But whatever the
case is, there was a point inwhich Jesus stood up and took
(00:47):
off his crown and laid his diethim in the corner and gave his
ring back to his dad and tookoff his priestly and Royal Guard
dressed, undressed down to aloincloth, and took a swan dive
out of heaven to come here on aprisoner exchange for you and
me.
Joshua Johnson (01:16):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson, go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
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(01:39):
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share this podcast with yourfriends, your family, your
(01:59):
network, tell them how much youenjoy it and let them know that
they should be listening aswell. If you're new here,
welcome. If you want to digdeeper, or find us on social
media at shifting culturepodcast, where I post video
clips and quotes and interactwith all of you. Previous guests
on the show have included Brianzahnd, Josh White and Liam
burns. You can go back andlisten to those episodes and
(02:20):
more. But today's guest isCharles Martin Charles Martin is
a New York Times and USA Todaybest selling author of over 20
books Charles's wife Christielive in Jacksonville, Florida,
where you might find him bowhunting, working out or doing
Taekwondo with his three boys.
This was such a greatconversation with Charles. While
(02:41):
we explore the crucifixion ofJesus and his profound impact on
Charles's life and faith.
Charles shares a powerfulpersonal experience encountering
the sight of Jesus's scourgingin Jerusalem, which gave him new
insight into both God's wrathtoward sin, and his limitless
love shown through Christ'ssacrifice. We talked about
struggling to comprehend thedepth of Jesus's suffering, and
why he endured it as well as thehope the grace and restoration
(03:04):
available to all of us throughfaith in Him. We also talked
about the importance ofcommunity narrative and
remembering Jesus's cross. Sojoin arms with us as we go on
pilgrimage towards the cross.
Here's my conversation withCharles Martin. Charles, welcome
(03:25):
to shifting culture reallyexcited to have you on thank you
so much for joining me. Hey,thanks for making room
appreciate it. Yeah, of course,you know, as an introduction,
and to you and an introductionto relate the cross and
crucifixion of Jesus and wherewe're headed today. I want to
know where has the crucifixionwhere's the cross of Jesus
(03:45):
intersected in your own life?
Charles Martin (03:47):
Let me let me back up just a just a couple of
years. I was. I've been toIsrael six times. I love it. I
love the people. I love thecountry. I love the topography,
geography, I really love thefood. Man, you get me near some
shawarma, and it is all over.
And I just I just love it. Buton my third trip there, we
managed to get a ticket downbelow the Western Wall to the
(04:09):
Herodian road which sits about30 feet below. You know where
people stand today. And withoutgoing into a lot of detail. We
know it's Herodian because ofthe stamp the border, we know is
the lowest thing you can'texcavate any lower than that
because if you do, you hit therock of Mount Moriah and this
particular road runs north tosouth along the western wall and
(04:31):
it runs basically from pilotspraetorium or the soldiers
Garrison all the way down to thesouthwest corner of the Temple
Mount and basically sort ofended or came pretty close to
the steps that lead out of thehigh priests house. typhus,
kyphosis. And we had been we'vebeen in the Galilee and fallen
(04:52):
steps of Jesus and we finallyended up in Jerusalem like we
always do. It's pilgrimage youknow, we always were always we
sit as we lay And we'refollowing Jesus, but we're
always doing it with an eye tothe cross. I mean, that's he's
already said his face for that.
So we're just following him. Andyou know, so everything leads to
Jerusalem. And we get there.
We've been through the garden,we've been through the Mount of
(05:14):
Olives, we had stood on thesouthern steps, we've been the
Caiaphas house. And then thatevening, we gotten a ticket to
go down in this excavation, thatwas a recent thing. They had
uncovered this road. And theyhad uncovered what they thought
was the soldiers Garrison, wherePilate interrogated Jesus and we
wind down, it's about 30 feetbelow and you get down there in
(05:36):
the time it was at lit verywell, I mean, it today, it's
very nicely presented. And it'sa beautiful tour, and everybody
should go do it. But at thetime, it was like, you know, a
light bulbs hanging hanging bywires that weren't all that, you
know, anyway, we get down there,and the stones are really big
and smooth, and they're wagon orwagon wheel, tracks grooves in
the stone, and we get down towhere they thought the Gearson
(06:01):
was. And there's this hole inthe stone, it's about 14 inches,
maybe 12 inches in diameter. Andwhat we learned from Roman
record is that the soldierswould wedge a post into that
hole. And they would lash theprisoner to the posts, and there
they would scourge Him. And weknow that they did that there.
Because right next to the holeis a thing carved in the stone
that's maybe two to three incheswide, and it looks like a like a
(06:25):
small gutter. And it's a bloodgroove that it was meant to
catch what was spilling out ofthe man last to the post and
they it goes over to a gutterthat leads out and then just
about 12 feet away. If you'restanding over that hole, about
12 feet away, there's a seriesof 12 like 1210 or 12, vertical
(06:46):
and horizontal lines looks likea big tic tac toe board. But
it's more lines. And we knowfrom history that that is the
residue of a game played byRoman soldiers called the Kings
game. And there they wouldgamble for the belongings of the
dude strapped to the post. Wegot down there at night. And I
(07:08):
put all these pieces together.
And I remember staring down atthat hole. And I know I'm 54
I've known the Lord a long time.
That does not mean I've alwaysbeen obedient. I do not have the
monopoly on that I am a wretchedblack hearted senator. But I do
love the Lord. And it juststruck me as I'm staring down
over that thing. Like thisreally happened. I write stories
(07:31):
for a living. I mean, you seethese books, these are my models
behind me. I've written 18novels. So I have somewhat vivid
imagination. But for somereason, the Lord did a thing in
me where it took it out of thisstory. And I just beat and I
just crushed me and I remembersort of hitting the stone and I
(07:53):
just wanted to put my palm onthe stone. I just wanted to
touch it. And I began having aconversation with the Lord that
sounded like, what kind of keendoes this like really, because I
know me and I'm not worth therescue. And I'm not trying to
play superficially humble, I'mjust this that can be exchanged
is not equal. And I just beganasking the Lord through tears.
(08:17):
I'm like, really why? And he Ijust I'm not, I'm not telling
you. I heard him like you and Iare hearing each other's voices
right now. But it was more likean impression. And I felt like
he just locked arms with me. Andhe said, Hey, walk with me back
to my cross. And I'll show you.
And so that you asked about myintersection with the cross. And
(08:40):
that was a big one for me. And Ibegan from there I began sort of
wrestling with I wonder if Icould wonder if I were if I
could ever tell that story in myown way and in my own style. And
so the idea for this books werea bubbled up and out of that
moment. I was afraid to write inabout two years. And then I sat
(09:01):
down to write it. It took meabout nine months. And in those
nine months, my intersectionwith Him and His Cross was about
a daily sort of thing. And twothings happened in that time
with him. And I'm praying ithappens with people who read my
book, not I mean, not that I'mtrying to control the outcome,
but it was beautiful. What hedid, the first thing he did was
(09:23):
I'd really saw that the onlything I bring to the cross, the
only thing I don't bring goodwork so don't bring good
intentions. There's nothingabout me good. The only thing I
bring is the sin that causes meto need it in the first place.
And he allowed me to see thatlike you allowed Charles to see
Charles really clearly. And it'snot pretty. And if y'all knew my
(09:46):
thoughts you would agree withme. And but he didn't leave me
there John tells us that we getthe grace and truth are poured
out on the lips of Jesus. And soif we're getting truth we know
it's wrapped in grace and it'snot cheap grace. It's the
priceless kind because it costhim everything. aiming to
provide it. And so he met meevery day, when I would walk
back to his cross literally,with the truth of me, which I
(10:09):
asked him for, and then I hit myface and repentance. And I still
do. And he met me with thissweet grace in the same way that
he does with Peter on the beachafter his resurrection is like,
hey, just follow me. So, I don'tknow, that's a sort of a
roundabout answer to yourquestion. But that's, that's all
I got.
Joshua Johnson (10:28):
I love it. I love it. But so as as you're
going down, you know, 30 feetbelow the Wailing Wall, you're,
you're sitting there, you'relooking at this whole, you're
going by chi Ephesus house, andyou know, as chi fest goes to
pilot, and you know, pilotssaying, you know, should we kill
your king, it's basicallysaying, We have no king, but
(10:51):
Caesar. And he's saying, we'regoing to forego the kingdom of
God. And we're going to say, wehave the kingdom of the world.
And that's, we know what poweris. And then Jesus himself goes
to the cross and obliterates,you know, the kingdom of the
world brings about this thiskingdom of God through the
(11:14):
Scorch, and the the ugly,gruesome crucifixion. I mean,
it's a it's a torture place. Imean, it's, as you you were
broken. I mean, he's, he'stortured. And on a cross for us,
how do we reconcile a God thatcomes here and puts himself
(11:37):
through all of that, for us?
When we're living in this world,where it's all you know, what
coppice was all about was powerand earthly power. But as
something different, how do westart to approach this cross,
and this God, and this Jesusthat we have, that would
(11:58):
actually put himself throughthis?
Charles Martin (12:02):
One of the things I felt like he did with
me in this book, and a publisherlabeled it sort of like a
devotional, I think that's howit's classed. You know, if you
look it up on any of the sales,whatever it's, it's, you find a,
I don't know, I'm not adevotional guy, and I'm not
knocking them. Please note herethat I just, it's never been my
thing. I grew up on OswaldChambers. But that's about all I
know about it by the devotional.
But as I got into it, what itfelt like for me was a
(12:28):
pilgrimage. There's this psalm,I'm gonna mess it up. But I
think it's 84. And it says,Blessed is the man whose
strength is in you, whose heartis set on pilgrimage. And I
found that as I sort of got intothis, and I was trying to
understand, I was just askingsimple questions like, really,
Lord, why. And I felt like hetook me back to what he did, he
(12:50):
took me back to the garden, andwe sort of spent some time
studying the story of thegarden, because in God's economy
in his kingdom, he doesn't justbrush off sin it, he hates it.
And he's just and so forwhatever reason, and I can't
pretend to tell you that reason,I don't know, when we get to
(13:11):
heaven. He'll explain it to usthough, the best analogy I can
come up with is, if you and Ihad, you know, a five year old
girl, or young child and or boy,and he or she was abducted, and
that person took them someplacehorrible and did inexplicable,
horrible things. And thenseveral weeks later, they were
caught and brought into, youknow, jail, prison, whatever.
(13:34):
And eventually, the day for thetrial came. How would you feel
if that person who had committedsuch evil walked in and said to
the judge, Judge, I was justhaving a bad day, man, it just,
it was just, you know, there wasone thing led to another and he
and then the judge, afterhearing this story says, Look,
man, I've had those kinds ofdays too. So look, let's just,
(13:56):
let's just call it, let's justcall it square, and don't do it
again. Well, you and I wouldcome unglued. And the reason we
would come unglued is becausethere is a thing in us that
knows and wants justice forevil. And that thing in US
doesn't start with us. It startswith him. So when Adam and Eve
(14:17):
fell and sinned, God coveredtheir sin with the skin of an
animal so that we know from themoment sin occurred, there was a
covering of animal skin for thatsin. It cost the animal
everything, to shed its blood torid itself of its skin and cover
(14:43):
them. So throughout the historyof the nation of Israel, we see
the payment for sin against thewrath of God which is stored up.
The difference though, prior toJesus is that All of the payment
for sin, the lambs sacrificed onthe altar, especially the Day of
(15:05):
Atonement only covers that sinfor one year. It's a covering.
And then we see Jesus who walksup at about age 30. And John,
his cousin says, Behold, theLamb of God who takes away the
sins of the world. This is atotally different thing. And so,
the difference in Jesus, theshed blood of Jesus versus a
(15:27):
sacrificial lamb, is that wedon't have to go back to the
cross every year. And Jesus bere crucified every year. There
was one payment for sin whichsatisfied forever the wrath of
God. Jesus made propitiation onour behalf, which just blew me
away when I pressed into it. Andyou and you talk about the
(15:53):
scourging will the Romans, theRomans perfected both the
scourging and crucifixionbecause the Scourge is like a,
you know, a piece of wood that'sabout four feet long, and this
guy like four or five foottassels, and on the end of it
are these pieces of rock andstone and iron. And so when it
is slung at this is not anIndiana Jones whip is is a thing
that when it's slung, it wrapsaround the person and it embeds
(16:17):
in the flesh. And when it ispulled off, it removes that
flesh. This is why Isaiah sayshe became unrecognizable as a
man. So by the time Jesus isforced marched out the Damascus
Gate carrying his crossbar, he'sbeen shredded, he's hamburger,
he did his he doesn't even looklike Jesus anymore. That's why
they tap Simon until asking ortelling him command him carry
(16:39):
this for him, because he's notgoing to make it, then they post
him up on this tree, the twogreatest needs in life. So I'm
told our air and water afterthere are needs after that, but
without those life is reallyshort. And on the cross Jesus
can't get either. Because hedrowns in his own lung fluid.
And because he'd been beat, andas all of that flesh removed, I
(17:01):
don't know if you've ever reallybeen really thirsty. I mean,
we've all been thirsty to someextent, but I don't know just a
picture of Jesus shreddedhamburger unrecognizable. Making
payment that we could not pay,showed me that gee, the God the
Father is really serious abouthis wrath. And he's not just
brushed it under the rug, whichalso shows you the limitless
(17:24):
love of Jesus, which we clueinto a little bit in John 17,
when he says, so that the lovewith which You have loved Me
might be in then, and I in them,it's a beautiful commerce.
Joshua Johnson (17:38):
That's heartbreaking. And that is
disturbing. And it's beautifulat the same time. It's, it's a
paradox. You know, you'relooking at the this ugly cross,
but you're looking at like themost beautiful thing that's
happened in human history. And
Charles Martin (17:56):
you got to ask, and one of the things I began
asking is, he didn't just starthere on Earth, born to marry, he
was the king on a throne seatedat the right end of God, in
perfect union, perfect unitywith the Father surrounded by
hundreds of millions of angels,and around him, the other 12
rulers are on their face, havingcast their crowns at his feet.
(18:17):
And he takes a look down at usat the problem of mankind. And
it's not that he realizesbecause he knew, but there was a
time at which he said, Dad, Igotta go rescue mankind because
they will never be able to makepayment. And that's a wrong way
to say it. Because theyestablish this God the Father
(18:39):
established this before thefoundation of the world. So it's
like A Wrinkle in Time thing. Ican't even wrap my head around.
But whatever the case is, therewas a point in which Jesus stood
up and took off his crown andlaid his diet him in the corner
and gave his ring back to hisdad and took off his priestly
and Royal Guard dressed,undressed down to a loincloth
and took a swan dive out ofheaven to come here on a
(18:59):
prisoner exchange for you andme. That started getting to me
when I began trying to unwrapthat.
Joshua Johnson (19:06):
Wow. Wow. And so as you're walking through the
these 40 days, as you'rewriting, it has finished. What
was one of the, one of the daysthat you take us through that
was really impactful for you,that you you sat with and you
were kind of in awe of, of Jesuswhile you were writing that day.
Charles Martin (19:29):
The word to tell us die, we translate as it is
finished. And that is true, it'scorrect translation. I am told
I'm not a great Hebrew and Greekscholar, but I am told that a
more accurate translation is itis perfectly perfect or it is
completely complete. So I beganlooking back into the story of
(19:50):
one one when was when were weone was mankind in perfect unity
and complete unit Well,obviously in the garden, and
then, you know, granted And I amoutside of scripture here. So
you got to understand that I'mand I admit that in the book,
but there was a point at whichthe angel marched Adam and Eve,
who were real people with realfunny bonds and real tears, and
(20:13):
really motions, walked them outof the garden. The lock Shut up.
And I think they had twoemotions. One was all my what
have we just done? And two, howdo we get back there? Because at
this point, everything changesthe world is going to hell in a
(20:33):
handbasket. They they have gonefrom perfection, to
imperfection, from blessing tocurse, from life to death, from
food that never rots to maggotsfrom no death to one son killing
another and burying him. Andthen think about it, either Adam
(20:54):
or Eve buried the other. So theythink they went from everything
perfect to this fall in place.
And it has in it is the desireof the Father, to return us to
that place. That's why it tellsthe nation of Israel and Exodus
I haven't brought you to myself.
And then Jesus comes on thisrescue mission. And what he's
(21:16):
trying to return us to, isperfect unity. And that's why he
says, I'm the way the truth andthe life no one comes to the
Father except through me thefather's to the destination. But
we can't get there withouthaving satisfied the wrath of
God. So Jesus said his mercy,makes payment We can't pay and
(21:36):
offers us access both to theFather and His love for us. And
somewhere early in the first. Idon't know, seven days or
something of this book, I sortof I just sort of had this
realization that the Lord GodMost High, has spent all of
(21:57):
human history trying to bring usback to Himself. And that's a
crazy, furious kind of love thatI don't think we understand.
Joshua Johnson (22:08):
How does that change the way that we live in
the world when we start to get aglimpse of that furious, crazy
love that He has for us?
Charles Martin (22:18):
Well, sometimes when I'm talking to people like
you, and you ask me questions,how should we, as there feel a
little bit above my paygrade?
Because you're asking me totranslate what he's done in me
to all of us. So let me let melet me just tell you about me.
And the whoever's listening cantranslate it to themselves. And
so I, I walk here with fear andtrembling, but what he what he
(22:41):
did with me, as I came to have atruer revelation of who he is
through his word, and by thepower of his Spirit, I came to
see the extent to which he hasgone, continues to go and will
continue to go to snatch me backout of the kingdom of darkness.
(23:04):
And when I saw the inequality ofwhat he gets in the exchange, me
for him, it just, I can't tellyou the number of days I sat in
my chair, which is right overhere, right on a lap desk. And I
would find myself weeping.
(23:24):
Because he just it's, it's a nomatter. No matter how far I have
straight in my life. There is noplace on planet earth that the
blood of Jesus can't snatch meback. And I put this in the book
I said, there's a said if youhear anything I write in this
(23:44):
whole thing. However many pagesand words that is, if you
remember anything from thisbook, remember this there is
more grace in Jesus than sin andUS period. And the hit you have
an enemy that wants you to notbelieve that. And there I've
talked to the guys in prison andeven folks in you know, lifers
and death row, and they can't,they can't understand that God
(24:09):
would love them. I got a crazyletter A couple months ago from
a lady on death row. We all knowher story was in the news. It's
horrible. It's it's horrible.
It's it's one of the worstthings I've ever heard. And she
landed there. And when we weredead in our trespasses and sins,
(24:31):
He made us alive or he didsomething in her when she landed
behind those bars and he madeher alive and he brought a dead
woman to life. And she lovesJesus. And she's like crazy
repentant. And she wrote me aletter and she knows she
deserves to be there. And she's,you know, she's not trying to
make excuses. But she said,look, here's the thing. If Jesus
(24:53):
Christ is not the solution tothe problem of mankind, there is
no such illusion is right.
There's absolutely more graceand mercy in him than sin in us.
And we have an enemy that isworking really hard to make sure
we do not believe that.
Joshua Johnson (25:13):
So as we're walking in this pilgrimage
towards the cross, and we'restarting to realize that there's
more grace, in Jesus, there issin and us. How do we as people,
or how have you in community,had the embodied presence of
Jesus in others to remind us, alet's start to shift our focus
(25:34):
back to Jesus because the enemyis here to distract us. The
enemy is here to steal, kill,and destroy. And so we I think
we need each other to remind us,a Jesus is here, there's more
grace there for us. Let's let'sreturn back to him. How can we
what are some steps for us toremind ourselves and community.
Charles Martin (26:00):
One things I love about letters of Paul is he
kind of cut to the chase prettyquick. And if you read the
letters of Paul, he, he's alwaysstarts off with the grace of
Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
And then he thanks God forwhoever he's writing to, except
one letter and the Letter to theGalatians. He skips the thanking
God at all. He basically spendstwo chapters remenham A new
(26:20):
orifice. And by the time you getto chapter three, he says
foolish Galatians, who hasbewitched you before whose eyes
Jesus Christ was personallyportrayed as crucified? And what
we learned about the church inGalatia, is that these are these
were eyewitnesses to the arrest,crucifixion, death, burial and
resurrection of Jesus. They sawit with their own eyes, they
(26:44):
heard the man speak. And Paul isbasically saying, Hey, yo, guys,
have you have you forgotten? Yousaw this man die? You heard what
he said, You saw him return? Howhave you what what has caused
you to take your eyes just alittle bit off because a little
bit here is a whole lot downthere. And he we learned that
(27:05):
they they've taken their eyesoff the cross. And one of the
things that I love about all ispolling, the poll never did. He
said I desired to know nothingamongst you accept Jesus Christ
and Him crucified, which thinkabout that from it. Like all the
things Jesus did. I mean, he fed5000 He he'll the paralytic, the
lime, excuse me, the lime, theblind, the lame, the Lazarus. I
(27:27):
mean, how about Jesus Christ andhit him raise a lot. But no,
because without the cross, noneof that matters. And he could
have said, Jesus Christ and theend that in the empty tomb,
which is the singular basis forour statement of faith, but but
before you get to the tomb, itwalks underneath the shadow of
(27:49):
this cross. Without the cross,there is no empty tomb, there is
no payment, there's nosatisfying the wrath of God.
Allah by the time it gets to theend of Galatians, somewhere in
the middle part of chapter six,he says, God forbid that I
should boast except in the crossof our Lord and Savior. So you
ask about what can we do incommunity and I don't know I got
(28:10):
a I got a band of brothers I dolife with it's 11. Guys, we've
done life together for about 15years. And the Lord has done
beautiful things through us.
He's healed us. He's deliveredus. He's met us and our grief,
he's joined us and our joy. Hehas used each of us to point out
(28:30):
in each of us, where we'remissing something. And there's
scripture, Paul says, There's ascripture that says, I think, as
Paul says, is the kindness ofGod that leads us to repentance.
And he's used us because of ourfriendship and our brotherhood
and our love for one anotherthat, that we have hearts to be
able to hear each other most ofthe time. I'm not always meek
(28:51):
and teachable, but I'm workingon it. But he's used us it
because we trust each other. Andwe love each other. We're able
to say hard things, or at leastask questions that allow us to
see maybe what we don't. And oneof the things I love about doing
life with them is on most nightswhen we get together, our
(29:14):
prayers, and EBITDA inevitablystart with real, real, gut
wrenching repentance. Justwanting to be authentic with the
Lord and not show up with a liebetween us and Him. And so I
(29:37):
don't know how people make it inthis life or in this walk of
faith without brothers or Idon't know I don't know how you
do that. I don't know how youdon't I mean, the paralytic did
not get to Jesus without fourfriends. So I don't know how you
know, my pastor job. He talksabout the format toters I don't
know how you get through lifewithout format toters. And I'm
(29:58):
grateful that the Lord has givenme some bro others who don't
judge me, but that walkalongside me. And, and they'll
love me and each other to youknow, through all can be
difficult stuff.
Joshua Johnson (30:13):
Now, I'm so glad you have that because I think
some people don't and they needit. And so I think you know, my
encouragement to anybody who'slistening is to go seek that
out. And not just wait forsomebody to approach you but
seek others out so that you canstart to walk with them, towards
Jesus towards the cross ofJesus. And you know, one of the
things that you do really well,is that you write stories, you
(30:38):
are a narrative person. And Ithink one thing that really
helped me see Jesus in a newlight was to look at the
narrative of Scripture, and tolook at the whole story arc, and
not just, you know, knowing thethe doctrine of things, but
(30:58):
actually seeing the whole storyplay out. How, what's the
importance of narrative andstory as we approach and go on
pilgrimage towards the cross ofJesus? Well, let's
Charles Martin (31:10):
first start with the danger of narrative and
story because there's anadmonition in the somewhere
about the all the middle ofRevelation, I'll forget the
chapter and but there's anadmonition to guys like me, who
come along and try and write andtell this story. If anything, if
we add anything to it, it's notit does not end well for us. So
I've always started out my, mydesire to try and tell the story
(31:33):
of Jesus with Lord. Please don'tlet me get outside of have you
helped me figure out how to usethe Scripture you've given us
to, to interpret the Scriptureyou've given us. And also think
I'm pretty clear in the placeswhere I'm trying to tell the
story that I say, look,Scripture says this. But let me
(31:56):
let me try and help you see itfrom this perspective. And one
example would be this when Jesussays, I thirst to satisfy all
scripture, which is Psalm 69. Itsays that there was a jar of
sour wine nearby and thesoldiers put a sponge on a stick
and held it to his mouth. Well,you can read that. And you can
(32:16):
think that that's somewhat of amerciful act. And I've heard
that taught as a merciful thingthat had mercy on Jesus. Well,
if you look at their behavior,in the moments and hours prior,
there's nothing merciful aboutthe soldiers treating of Jesus,
you also have to understand thatthe Roman army, at the time of
the life of Jesus is the largestarmy in the history of the
(32:37):
world. And a large army has tobe fed, a Fed army has to go to
the bathroom. And that can causesanitary problems if they're not
careful. So that when some Romansoldiers were conscripted or
taken in or assigned, given,they were given sandals, they
were given certain type ofarmor, they were certainly given
a sword and a spear. They werealso given three other things.
(32:59):
They were given a jar ofvinegar, they were given a
stick, and they were given asponge, and then they were
instructed with how to cleantheir backsides because in the
first century, vinegar is acommonly used antiseptic and
astringent for most everything.
So the reason the Roman army wasso successful at one of the
reasons and so successful andlong campaigns is because they
knew how to maintain a sanitsanitary army. Well, that sponge
(33:22):
on a stick has a name, it'scalled a TR Storium. And we see
this throughout Roman record andhistory. So the fact that it's
sitting there not too far fromthe cross is not a wonder. It's
like first century toilet paper.
When Jesus says, I thirst in myopinion, some mocking soldier
(33:49):
laughing, and dips his chairStorium in feces laced vinegar,
and shoves it down the throat ofJesus here drink this. That's a
very different look on the lastfew moments of Jesus life. Now,
do I know 100%? Certain thatthat is what happened? No, but
(34:10):
I'm pretty sure I tend to thinkso. Also think I'm pretty safe
and that in adding thathistorical record to how we look
at that, does it in the grandscheme of things does it matter?
No, but it does give us a viewof Jesus that they're still
mocking Him. And and even evenpast that, I mean, think about
(34:32):
it. Think about the shame he'she's also naked. All these
pictures that we have orpaintings that we have of Jesus.
I like it's not true. He'stotally naked. We know that from
Scripture. It says that the thewoman stood at a distance, the
only woman to come close was hismother. Why did they do that?
Because he's naked. They'retrying to shame him. And so
there is Jesus, the Son of God.
He's the brightness of theFather's glory. He upholds all
(34:56):
things by the Word of His power.
He fashioned you and me from thedust. He's strong 10 trillion
stars in the night sky and callshim by name, he told the ocean
where to stop, he told themountains Hi. And yet he
willingly allows his very owncreation. To rip him mercilessly
(35:21):
undress him nail into a tree,and then shove feces down his
throat, while he's drowning inhis own lung fluid, carrying
literally every sin for allmankind for all time on the
weight of his shoulders. And thething that I can't understand,
(35:42):
and I probably won't until I getto Heaven is that he didn't call
down heaven, he could havecalled down all those angels. He
could have thrown lightningbolts with accuracy. And he
didn't. And that's a crazy countof mercy that I just don't
understand. I want to, and Iknow that he, he extended that
then and he continues to extendit. Now I left to the writing of
(36:05):
this book was Lord, I know thatI don't love you. The way that I
know that I don't love you in myheart in a way that I really
want to in my head. And I wantto. So would you please do the
thing in me? That lets me walkin greater obedience, greater
faith? And lets me just do that.
I want to, I want to walk withyou and hear you. Will you help
(36:27):
me do that? I don't know how wegot there. But that's somehow
you asked me something. And Itried to answer.
Joshua Johnson (36:39):
Well, this is what I want want to say I think
facing the grotesque nature ofthe cross is important. I think
a lot of people try to sanitizethe cross to make it more
palatable for us to talk about,you know, every every Sunday. So
(37:00):
what does it do to us how, whyis facing the grotesque nature
of the cross. So important?
Charles Martin (37:07):
Well, if we can whitewash it, it doesn't hurt as
much. I mean, if we can, youknow, if you can just sort of
hang him up there and let himbleed out. You know, it's just a
I don't know, maybe it's amundane, Friday execution. I
don't know. Here's part of thepicture, though, that I just
(37:28):
this one got to me. Jesus is inthe middle. There are two
thieves on either side,murderers, whatever they are.
One is railing at him cussinghim out. If you are you say you
are save us. The guy on theother side, shakes his head and
says, Dude, we are getting ourjust reward. We deserve this.
(37:48):
Can't you see that this man doesnot. And it just blew me away
that that thief on the cross isa couple feet from Jesus. And he
has a bird's eye view ofliterally the redemption of
mankind. He has a perspectivethat no one in history ever had.
And something happens in himsomething, something happened
(38:11):
where the day before, whatevercrime he committed, that was his
life's plan. And it ended him onthis cross right next to Jesus,
which has been the planthroughout the ages for him to
be there. And then somethinghappened in his heart and you
hear it in his language. Hesays, Lord, when you come into
your kingdom, we remember me.
And there's a submission of hisheart to the Lordship of Jesus.
(38:33):
And we know, we know somethingabout that Joker that cannot be
said of anybody else'sscripture. And that is this he
right? This second is in heavenwith Jesus. Now, as I unpacked
this, what did he do to earnthat? Or what did he do to get
that? Well, he didn't join adiscipleship group didn't walk
(38:53):
out in front of the church hasno church membership, he can't
tell you squat about theChristology or any of Jesus or
the doctrine of Scripture, andhe wouldn't even know how to
spell it. But he didn't, hecan't, this guy can't even raise
his hands in worship, becausetheir last two have crossbar.
The only thing he does is hebelieves that Jesus is who He
(39:19):
says He is. And that he isreturning to his kingdom. And
the only way that thief hasaccess to that kingdom is
submitting wholeheartedly to HisLordship and his righteous
reign. And he does that and it'sa it's a it's the most beautiful
picture because that gives ushope, like all of us think,
(39:40):
well, we have this like Phariseething and as all of us think
that we got to do something,some sort of work plus belief to
really like if you really boilthis down. We you know, the
Scripture says, for everyone whobelieves Well, belief is the key
that gets us access. Well, wethink Well, I got to do this or
I got to do that. And I look,once we fall in love with him,
(40:02):
there should be an obedience ofour heart that comes out of us
and our works are obediencedriven. They are not, you know,
this is James, it's me, show meyour faith without works. I'll
show you my with it. So it's, wefall in love with him. And
there's a thing in us that wewant to be more like him. So we
begin our lives begin lookingbut those things don't get us
access to him. So it was abeautiful thing where I saw this
(40:23):
thief that it just, it takes thepressure off. I'm not I'm not
I'm not. I'm not selling cheapgrace. I am, I am. I am, I am
showing the beautiful Mercy ofJesus on the cross, bringing one
more into His kingdom. And theonly thing that guy did was
believed that Jesus is who Hesays He is. And I just love it
(40:46):
it, it did a thing in me that itreally it kind of like broke
some legalistic chains that Ididn't know I was curi. I would
have told you that I wasn't butit did. It kind of broke some
chains. And I'm not you. I'm notusing that as a license to not
do something or a license tosin. I'm not saying that at all.
(41:07):
It just it was just a beautifulthing where that Joker places
his faith is the Hebrew word ispursue to believe in Jesus.
There's a massive differencebetween believing in and
believing that because thedemons believe that Jesus is the
Son of God, but they ain't gonein the kingdom of heaven.
Joshua Johnson (41:31):
Yeah, even to somebody like you know, Peter,
who believed in Jesus denied himor out of the cross. But you
mentioned, you know, the verybeginning, you mentioned a
little bit about the story ofwhen he was restored back to
Jesus on the beach after theythey went fishing. Can you take
us into that? What happens? Howdo how does the cross of Jesus
(41:55):
there? And how does Jesushimself then restore Peter back
to em, even when there was adenial at the cross?
Charles Martin (42:06):
Let me just say this in and this is this may not
be popular with your listeners.
But here's the truth of thiswhole story with Peter. The
truth is we are all Peter, wehave all denied him 10,000 times
Peter only did it three times.
We've all denied him a month. Solet's don't, let's not try and
put Peter over here that he'ssomehow different that he denied
Jesus. Look, we're all here.
Now, here's the thing about thatstory, or that one of the things
(42:27):
that I think about it is on hison his on his third denial.
Peter is standing around acharcoal fire. And the slave
girl says are you one of Hisfollowers? And Peter says no,
but you got to notice thecharcoal fire because it's only
mentioned twice in scripture.
Jesus is resurrected. Ascrucified, resurrected. He says,
(42:49):
he basically says, Hey, tellPeter, I'm gonna come fly them.
And Peter doesn't feel worthy.
He's wrapped in shame. He doesnot know at one point he was
captain of the team. And then hedenies Jesus and he doesn't feel
worthy to do anything having todo with Jesus says, Look, see
boys later, peace out, I'm goingback to my old way of life. I'm
going fishing, and they don'treally know what to do either.
And so they're just following.
(43:10):
And you find these guys and acouple of boats on the Sea of
Galilee. And Peter is strippeddown to you know, his shorts or
whatever efficient and they seeJesus on the beach. And that is
someone's and somebody says itis the Lord. And then notice
what Peter does, says he puts onhis cloak. Now who when they're
about to go swimming, getsdressed. He's in shame. So he's
(43:33):
trying to cover up he gets tothe beach. And you see this
beautiful conversation is whatis one of my favorite in all of
Scripture, because it's the itis the most beautiful do over in
the history of do overs. And howdoes Jesus start it with a
charcoal fire on the beach?
Peter lands on the beach, hesmells that charcoal and he's
like, Oh, no, really, we got togo back here. And Jesus takes
him back to the very place ofdenial. And I've heard this talk
(43:56):
where the somebody is taught atsaying that it was a you know,
sort of a pokin Peter in thechest thing like come on, man.
Like why did you deny me feed mysheep? And do you love me and I
don't think that's the way itwent down. I think Jesus made
the fire. I think he cooked thefish. I think Peter sits down
he's probably got his hair overhis eyes. He keys doesn't want
to look at Jesus. He's ashamedthat I think I think Jesus sat
(44:19):
down next to him and in him theplate and put his arm around
him. And I think he probablyleaned in and said, Hey, buddy,
you love me? Oh, yes, Lord, youknow, I love it. Alright, then
feed my sheep. Pierre eats alittle bit. He says Hey, buddy,
you. You love me? Or do you knowthat? Lovey, alright, and Feed
(44:42):
my lambs? What last time he'sprobably finishing up the beat
probably He probably can't evenswallow it because he's got so
much indigestion at this point.
And Jesus says you love me. AndPeter can't even respond to
love. He said, Well, yes, Lord,you know that I filet o or I
like you Yeah, he he's he'strying to just come down and
(45:03):
like, you know, at least I didthis right. And Jesus, I think
he just pushes his forehead upagainst his buddy and he says,
Hey, be my sheep. And then hesays the two words, that Peters
heart is crying out to hear.
Because he doesn't feel worthyto do the thing Jesus is about
to tell him to do. And Jesuslooks at me, says, Peter, follow
me. It's the most beautiful doover ever see the most beautiful
(45:28):
mercy filled conversation ever.
And I think at that moment,Peter probably stood up on the
beach. And just like fist pump,or hug Jesus or something,
because he he's now been broughtback in, and he has been
welcomed back and given ordersto do the thing that he wants to
do, but he just hasn't feltworthy because the enemies will,
(45:50):
you know, eaten his lunch withshame. And so I love that. I
love that picture. I love thatconversation is it's been a big
marker for me. And it's been abig marker for people that I've
I don't have some great bigprison ministry, but I've been
in, you know, a good number. Andif you tell that story in
(46:11):
prison, you will see jacked menwith a bunch of tattoos, weep in
their faces off. Because theenemy tells them they're not
worthy. And the truth is thatthey are so
Joshua Johnson (46:23):
beautiful. It's my favorite story. In Scripture,
it just it I just love thatJesus at the end to swats Abba
barbecue on the beach with hisfriends, and that he restores
Peter, it's just, it's just sucha beautiful story. And it gives
me a greater excuse to havebarbecue. So Amen. So it's good.
(46:45):
You don't what would you? Whathope do you have for your
readers? Get out of it hasfinished? What would you hope
that they get?
Charles Martin (46:53):
A look, the Lord took me on a pilgrimage with
himself. And he revealed himselfto me in ways that I had not
known. And it was a beautifulrevelation. And he did it
through His Word and by thepower of His Spirit. And my
prayer for folks reading this isnot that he reveals to them the
(47:14):
same things he revealed to me,I'm not trying to control the
outcome. Now they know how to dothat. All I know how to do is
lock arms with people and say,Hey, I swapped back to the
cross. And you can see me orwatch me hit my face and cry
out. And then I just want tolike pass you off to the Lord.
And let him do with you whateverhe wants and needs to do in you
(47:34):
so that you might maybe rememberor even know for the first time
who he is. And when I waswrestling with whether or not to
write this and I was probably Iwas probably a freshman probably
afraid, thinking. I don't knowif I could pull it off. I felt
like the Lord said Charles Liu,just lock arms with him and
bring him to me. And I'll takeit from here. It was kind of it
(47:56):
was always kind of funny. He waslike, Wow, Lord, that's a good
idea. So I just that's kind ofbeen my posture just to walk
with me back to the cross. So asI've met with folks, and they
sign this book for folks, and asI pray for folks that are
reading this, and diamond in myprayers, that the Lord will just
meet it. If we had a fresh writerevelation, Scripture inspired
(48:19):
revelation of Jesus. And whatwould it do? Like, what would it
do in us and to us and throughus and for us, and I am so
hungry for that. And I've metpeople who are and so I pray
that I pray that that happens.
Amen.
Joshua Johnson (48:39):
Amen. A couple quick questions. One, Charles,
if he'd go back to your 21 yearold self, what advice would you
give?
Charles Martin (48:47):
Fear is a liar.
And he's a defeated liar. He hasa microphone, and you can choose
whether or not to listen to it.
We walk by faith and not bysight. And without faith, it's
impossible to please Him. Sopunch that joker in the teeth.
And do what requires faith.
Because fear ain't never knownsquat. Nothing, read Hebrews 11
(49:11):
Fear did nothing. Faith stop themouths of lions and return the
dead back to life. So I wouldencourage 21 year old me, man,
don't give fear. Don't let itlive rent free in your head
ever. And it is a spirit and itdoes need to be called out and
(49:32):
named and cast out and rebukedall of that by the Spirit of
God.
Joshua Johnson (49:38):
And that's it.
And we I mean, that's why itsays do not be afraid more than
anything else in Scripture and65 times that and then one for
every day. One for every day. Soperfect. I love that love that
anything you've been reading orwatching lately you could
recommend
Charles Martin (49:56):
No, I'm look, I'm 75% of the way through a
novel, which I had To put onpause for this book to her, so
I'm gonna, we just got back inand hours to couple hours ago
from. So I'm going to, I'm goingto rest up today get back to
that I had been watching orreading anything except what
I've been working on. And yeah,sorry, I got nothing for you. I
(50:19):
would love to sound educatedthere. But no, we're
Joshua Johnson (50:23):
talking about your book is finished. How about
how about a book that you havewritten, you've written at
novels instead? What's one novelthat stands out for you that you
would you would recommend topeople listening,
Charles Martin (50:39):
I wrote a trilogy called the keeper
series, it starts with the waterkeeper than the letter keeper
than the record keeper. So Iwould, I would go to the water
keeper and start there becauseit it's the story of a man who
constantly and in great expenseto himself, leaves the safety of
his community leaves the safetyof the 99 to find the one who is
(51:04):
lost. It's the rescue story.
It's not majorly Christian easy,it's not going to thump you over
the head with an agenda. It'sfun storytelling. But it might
shake some things loose. It'salso pretty darn fast, fast
paced, if I may have myselfsaved, if I may say so myself.
So hold on.
Joshua Johnson (51:25):
Awesome.
Awesome. That's good. How couldpeople connect with you go out
and get this book?
Charles Martin (51:33):
I have a website, Charles Martin
books.com. You can find me allover social media. Yep, those
two. Perfect,
Joshua Johnson (51:42):
well go out and get it has finished. Charles,
this is a fantastic book, Ithank you for going on
pilgrimage, locking arms with meas a reader and bringing me to
the cross. And it's so amazingto be able to sit there at the
cross. And actually, what youdid today in this conversation
(52:06):
to, to encounter the grotesqueaspect of of what Jesus did and
endured on the cross for us,that the love of God would
really go anywhere to find usthat he would go into the depths
of she'll say, find us we can'tescape that love, and we can't.
(52:28):
And the grace of Jesus is somuch greater than any of the sin
that we have. And so thank youfor this conversation. Thank you
for your book. I love walkingthrough it. And so, as we're in
this season, right now, theseason of of Lent, and leading
up to you to Easter, leading toGood Friday, when we're actually
(52:53):
encountered this cross, I justpray that people would start to
dive into it so that they couldstart to go on pilgrimage,
pilgrimage, and journey towardsthe cross and see what Jesus
will do for you. And that soCharles, thank you for this
conversation. Thank you for thisbook. It was fantastic. Thanks
Charles Martin (53:12):
so much for having me. I appreciate you.
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