In this episode, Dan Kreiss and I have a conversation about how churches can better engage emerging generations and become more just and inclusive faith communities. Dan discusses his experience ministering in New Zealand and the US. He emphasizes the importance of understanding one's community, being intentional in serving others, and working together across denominations. We also get into insights from Dan’s research on what young people value in churches, such as authenticity, action on justice issues, and community. Join us as we figure out how to engage emerging generations and become justice oriented multi-inclusive communities of faith.
Dan Kreiss has given his career to Christian ministry with emerging generations in international and domestic contexts. He served in ministry in New Zealand for 15 years with Youth for Christ, Knox Presbyterian Church, and Hutt International Boys’ School.
When they returned to the US, Dan, his wife Cindy, and their four children settled in Bristol, Tennessee where he served as professor of Youth Ministry and Dean of the School of Missions at King University. Dan completed his Master of Divinity at Emmanuel Christian Seminary and his Doctorate in Leadership and Global Perspectives at George Fox University in 2020. A revamped and updated version of his research along is set to be released in collaboration with co-author Efrem Smith, by InterVarsity Press in February.
Dan and Efrem are passionate about the church and want to ensure that emerging generations find the church to be the example to the world of genuine community and context for spiritual nurture that God desires it to be.
Dan's Book:
Church For Everyone
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dan Kreiss (00:00):
You know, our hope is your hope, my hope,
(00:03):
everyone's hope is that there'sgoing to be another great
awakening. My fear is that someof that is because we wanted to
make sure that theseinstitutions don't fall and we
only need some to prop them up.
And that's the wrong motivationfrom my perspective, and the
motivation and ultimately thatthe love of Christ can be
displayed. And all will knowthat Jesus is Savior. That's the
(00:23):
motivation. And so what thatlooks like is not necessarily
the institutions that we thathave done that in the past that
might look different.
Joshua Johnson (00:45):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
forget to hit the Follow buttonon your favorite podcast app to
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(01:08):
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stars. Thank you so much. Youknow what else would help us
out? share this podcast withyour friends, your family, your
network? Tell them how much youenjoy it and let them know that
they should be listening aswell. If you're new here,
(01:31):
welcome. If you want to digdeeper find us on social media
at shifting culture podcast,where I post video clips and
quotes and interact with all ofyou. Previous guests on the show
have included only Gulabi JamalWilliams and Timothy Paul Jones.
You go back listen to thoseepisodes and more. But today's
guest is Dan Christ. Dan hasgiven his career to Christian
(01:53):
ministry with emerginggenerations in international and
domestic contexts. He served inministry in New Zealand for 15
years with Youth for Christ KnoxPresbyterian Church, and HUD
international boys school. Whenthey returned to the US Dan and
his wife Cindy, and their fourchildren settled in Bristol,
Tennessee, where he served asprofessor of youth ministry, and
(02:13):
Dean of the School of missionsat King University. Dan's book
is a church for everyone, whichhe co wrote with FM Smith, Dan
and FM are passionate about thechurch and want to ensure that
emerging generations find thechurch to be the example to the
world of genuine community andcontexts for spiritual nurture
that God desires it to be. Danand I have a conversation about
(02:36):
how churches can better engagemerchant generations and become
more just an inclusive faithcommunities. Dan discusses his
experience ministering in NewZealand in the US. And he
emphasizes the importance ofunderstanding one's community,
being intentional and servingothers and working together
across denominations. We alsoget into insights from Dan's
(02:58):
research on what young peoplevalue in churches, such as
authenticity, action on justiceissues, and community. Join us
as we figure out how to engageemerging generations and become
justice oriented, multiinclusive communities of faith.
Here's my conversation with DanChrist. Dan, welcome to shifting
culture really excited to haveyou on the podcast. Thanks for
(03:20):
joining me.
Dan Kreiss (03:22):
Yeah, glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
Joshua Johnson (03:25):
I'd love to hear a little bit of your story of
your relationship with Jesus,your your time in New Zealand
going and going there, what's,what brought you to New Zealand?
And why? Why do you love Jesus?
Dan Kreiss (03:40):
I guess with most of us in life, they're all kind of
wrapped up together, right? Youkind of your gloves for the Lord
kind of leads you by says thatyou think how on earth did I get
here and you know, you look backand you go, wow, that was
completely unanticipated,unexpected, but hear where you
are, and kind of grow anddevelop into the person that
(04:00):
got, you know, design created usto be anything. You know, I had
made these choices, and Ithought about them in advance, I
probably would not have ended upwhere I am. But because we're we
allow ourselves to be led. Itjust opens up all sorts of
doors. So I mean, a short storythat I love Jesus, because the
faith that my mother inparticular, shared was kind of
(04:24):
bestowed to me in such avibrant, real, genuine way that
there was never any doubt in mymind that that this relationship
that she had was Christ wasabsolutely real. To the point
that is sometimes frustrated me,you know, we we will she was a
single mother, two boys, youknow, and we, you know, money
(04:49):
was tight. And he it was it wasdifficult for us. There were
times when he lived on the eastcoast of Taiwan and Spain and
there were times we didn't haveenough heat for the house and
have a little kerosene heaterand the be ice on the inside of
my house. My window in mybedroom, sometimes in the
winter, and the car wouldn'tstart. She'd get frustrated and
shoot. Alright, we're goinginside. So we build, you know,
after DOS, the more you goinside, it's our last break. And
(05:11):
she got us together and I'mholding as impressive Alright,
let's go lunch to get up and carwould start I'd like you got to
be kidding me. So the love thatdoesn't count, maybe we just
need to go to a mechanic. Hesays, We got him again, we're
going to go which again, it'sjust fast. Again to this day,
she's in her 80s Now, still verymuch that kind of that, that I
(05:32):
know this one God needs or Goddesires from us. Let's let's do
this thing. You know, completefaith in the jury to New Zealand
was kind of tied up in that, youknow, I again, my own desire. I
had been interested in lawenforcement NACA stuff for a
long time and had shadowed somepolice officers and went to
study and thought, lawenforcement, FBI, something like
(05:53):
that. But in my community, whereI grew up in Coatesville,
Pennsylvania, so a little,little old steel town, that's,
you know, the steel mills allshut down and all kinds of
stuff, and had never experiencedany, you know, I went to church
and had these criminal acts up,but I went to college, and there
was a kind of play guitar sortof, and I play guitar for
(06:13):
university one time and thesepeople come say, hey, we need
you. I was like, What do youmean, you need me to this thing
called young life. So I gotinvolved in young life, just
playing guitar and it just kindof opened up doors, I realized,
you know, I had a passion forand I was still a young person
myself, but just kind of thoughtmaybe God is calling me to be a
(06:33):
fence at the top of the cliff,rather than the ambulance at the
bottom of the cliff, you know,kind of picking up the scraps
that's kind of prevent peoplefrom getting to the point where
they need law enforcement. So Itransferred I went to Eastern
University, which definitelyRobbins Tony Campbell, all those
guys and, and again, continue togrow in my understanding of who
God was. And it was a great itwas a great time and a great
(06:56):
place to kind of nurture thatfaith and again, with mentor was
like, like Duffy Robbins and,and others it was fantastic. Got
fully involved in young usthere. Hetrick was the area
director at again, a real man ofGod and discipling. And then
kind of I guess, Tony was atthat time can follow is that
time speaking all over theworld. And he I guess he had
(07:17):
some kind of speakingengagement, Australia, New
Zealand, something like that,and people and Youth for Christ
in New Zealand, heard him andthought, we need some help. And
Tony said, Well, we we got touse ministry degree, you know,
school, so calm. So these Kiwiscame and I honestly went to this
to just talk to these guysbecause I wanted to hear Kiwi
accent. That was my motivation.
But they said, Dan, we we thinkyou're a fit. And we'd like you
(07:41):
to come come for a year and seewhat happens. And so I graduated
and left a few days later to goto New Zealand. Again, this is
an old, so this is this is late80s. So I left Reagan was still
president, there's no internet,or no cellphones, a phone call
back home to my now wife with mygirlfriend a year behind me or
(08:03):
my mother was $3.70 a minute.
And I'm on you know, amongstsupport. I released support for
this. So there weren't a lot ofphone calls. And that was
terrible letter writing. It wasit was tough. Yeah. So and I
went for a year worth 3d ForChrist's lived in old for at
risk boys for a long time. I hadbeen again, I was suburbanite.
(08:26):
So you know, mostly middleclass, youth ministry kind of
experience. But this wassomething totally different was
a new culture and then newcultures, and living in an over
at risk, you know, street kidsand that kind of stuff. And that
just opened my eyes. And youknow, so the year finished, I
went, I came home to the UnitedStates and convinced my wife,
(08:49):
well, let's get married, andlet's go back for another year.
She's like, Oh, that sounds fun.
And we lived there together for17 years. And just our children
are born there. It was just afantastic experience. And again,
I was a pretty typical middleclass kid in the United States.
And, you know, I love the US.
(09:09):
But living overseas for thatlength of time, certainly
transformed my thinking and myunderstanding both of my faith
and my own culture and all thatkind of stuff. And I'm not
saying that my faith was aculturally conceived faith
because it was genuine butcertainly over there. It was
different. And it kind of mademe kind of connect to my faith
(09:32):
in a different way than than Ihad in the United States just
observing things differently andthen and experiencing things
differently and and connectingwith other people who had a
faith that was also genuine butvery different than my own
because their life theirexperience, their worldview is
completely different. And itjust it just continued to mold
and shape me unless there was inthese were in exam for 17 years
(09:55):
and then got a call to teach torun direct to a Duffy Robbins
did and eat Started at KingUniversity, which is a small
Presbyterian school in Bristol,Tennessee. And so as I was
training others to be pastors,and did that for about 15 years
in Bristol, and so all thoseexperiences, kind of led to, you
know, me thinking and writingand, and studying about emerging
(10:19):
generations and just I have apassion for young people in
particular, those and emerginggenerations in their connection,
not just to the physicaltradition of church, but to a
genuine relationship with Jesus.
And so, understanding that, asare in the United States, our
culture shifts, there are somethings that potentially the
(10:40):
church can and maybe should bedoing to help young people make
stronger, better connections,and so that it's a lifelong kind
of thing,
Joshua Johnson (10:52):
some of the stuff that you wrote about, and
that, in this new book, a churchfor everyone is based on some of
your research that you did foryour PhD. Right? And how did you
connect with frm? To start towrite this book? And what is
your goal? What was your goal?
Setting out?
Dan Kreiss (11:11):
So again, initially, the book started out as
dissertation. But it's, it's,which will make it seem like the
book is academic. It's one I'mnot a great academic. So it's
not academic, a relatively easyread. But it was basically
again, me trying to my passion,alas, Vol. Two was connecting
emerging generations to thechurch in a real and by the way,
(11:33):
we keep hearing this in theethos, this idea of the nuns and
this growing group of nuns like,you know, 20% 30% of the merging
generations are nuns. They'renot wearing a habit and not
Catholic this mean to NLN EDS,right there that have no, no
identified faith. Oh, certainlynot a traditional faith. And so
(11:54):
as I'm hearing this, I'm kind ofasking questions and wondering.
And so it began to, that waswhat my research was based on
and some of that research.
Again, this is just an academicexercise at the time, I
interviewed a whole bunch ofpeople who are doing ministry,
and one of those people that Iinterviewed was F, and then
completed that it's not good.
That was hard work. And I'vedone it, let's move on to the
(12:15):
next thing. And my editor, whowas a friend of mine, and then
my dissertation supervisor waslike this, this Mo, people need
to read this on just us. And I'msorry, really, that seems like
work. And I'm really done. Youknow, I finished my M div, and
then went straight into my,like, demand. And so it was like
(12:36):
six years, I haven't seen mykids, six years, what are you
thinking? So but we've kind offloated it out there. And
somebody decided they wanted topick it up. But they just
thought, Dan, this is a reallystrong book, it'll be even
stronger if we put another voicein. And so they, they reached
out the extra amo board. And sothe two of us collaborated, then
(12:57):
some of the information andcontent of the book comes from
his writing and his season,Sacramento, so he's got in a
very different context than Iam. And then some is mine. So
together, it just makes for abroader understanding. So his is
his input is a lot of thinkingabout justice oriented kind of
issues. And that's somethingthat emerging generations are
(13:20):
very passionate about. And sothey're wanting to see, you
know, is the church doing whatit what it espouses to do as it
it making a difference in thecommunities and making a
difference in the lives ofpeople. So that was kind of his
area and my areas, again,particularly young people, but
also I was at the time, Idecided in East Tennessee,
Bristol, Tennessee. So I am in acounty that is 96%. Caucasian.
(13:46):
So when we think of diversity,that, like ethnic diversity was
almost an impossibility. Youknow, the, the campus that I was
on was much more diverse thanthe rest of the county. But the
church that I worshiped in, wasnot very diverse, because it
couldn't be unless we sabotagedthe one or two local African
American churches, then you guyscame operating more so that we
(14:07):
can be ethnically diverse, thatwas never going to work. But
again, as I've talked tostudents, and as I continue to
read and research, I realizedthat that there was a whole lot.
There were a lot of people thatI didn't know our surrounding
area of our congregation thatwere diverse in other ways other
than just ethnic ethnicity. Andthey also weren't connecting to
(14:28):
our church. And what were thosethings that were different? And
what are the things that youknow, that unintentional walls
or barriers that our individualcongregations put up that says,
These are the people that belonghere and you don't? And so
that's kind of the question thatwe began to wrestle with and ask
and and so hopefully, we addresssome of that in this book church
(14:48):
for
Joshua Johnson (14:48):
everyone. So then what are some of those
barriers that basically wall upother outsiders and say you
don't belong? We only only thesetimes. So people belong in this
church, what are these barriers?
Dan Kreiss (15:04):
But so you're likely you probably have heard 1963
Martin Luther King says, youknow, 11 o'clock on a Sunday
morning is the most segregatedhour in the United States. And
so he's obviously they arespecifically talking about
racial segregation. And we know,MLK and and what he stood for
and what the arguments were atthat time. Well, you move on
(15:26):
from there, and you think, thisgeneration, so the ones that are
born from 2000, on in the UnitedStates, and actually in other
parts of the Western world aregoing to be the most diverse
generation ever. You know,they're saying by 2035, if
somewhere between 2035 and 50,cases are no longer going to be
a majority, they're going to bethe largest minority. Right? And
(15:50):
so that we get we growincreasingly diverse. But for
emerging generations, diversity,whether it's ethnic diversity,
whether it's educationaldiversity, whether it's social
standing on stuff, every otheraspect of their lives, in
school, in their sports, intheir other activities, or music
(16:12):
programs, when they go tocollege or university, you want
to go to a job, all thosethings, because that's the
generation there. That's a muchmore diverse generation. That's
everywhere. And then on Sundaymorning, you're looking to go,
why? Why is this context sodifferent than every other
aspect of my life? And so,unintentionally, I think that
(16:33):
the church is communicatingsomething to them that I don't
think the church desires tocommunicate, and that is, this
is an exclusive area. And Idon't think that's what any of
us intended, and are certainlynot what I believe that God
intends for the church. And sothat's gonna, that's the
diversity that we see. And sothey're, they're much more fluid
in that, then we are and muchmore comfortable in that aspect.
(16:56):
And that way, if the
Joshua Johnson (16:58):
church is communicating that this is an
exclusive thing, and notinclusive, what are some steps
that the church desires to bemore inclusive, that they want
to see that they know that A,the gospel is for all nations,
it's for everyone, we want to beinclusive, and be oriented
(17:22):
towards that, what are somesteps that churches can do to
start to move that direction?
The
Dan Kreiss (17:26):
steps for FM and His Church in Sacramento, and the
steps for me in my little churchin Bristol, Tennessee are not
going to be the same? Becauseit's a completely different
context. Right. And so, ratherthan kind of formulaic, and say,
Alright, any church that wantsto be diverse, here are the
things that we do. Essentially,we begin by asking some
(17:49):
questions like, Okay, this isour neighborhood, who lives in
our neighborhoods, draw a circleon a map of a mile, a mile and a
half and said, who was here? Andhow can we serve them. So it's
not necessarily about us, andmaking sure that people have
every, you know, in ourneighborhood, dark in our door
(18:09):
and are here for worship, butactually, that feel that the
church is a vital part of theirlives, even if worship is not
something they participate in.
Because we are getting gettingwe communicate the love of Jesus
in a whole lot of differentways. So I'm here now, and in
Roswell, Georgia, what, again,is much more diverse than
Bristol, Tennessee, but thechurch that I've been called to
(18:30):
is not particularly diverse, atleast not ethnically. And
there's a whole lot of reasonsfor that. I mean, there are some
very strong, vibrant churchesfor you know, we there's a
Hispanic congregation that meetsin our building at the same
time, and, you know, there's alanguage barrier for them to
come to worship with us. Sothat's a challenge. There are
(18:51):
some very strong AfricanAmerican churches within, you
know, walking distance of here.
And their worship style iscompletely different, and that's
fine. But what our desire isthat anyone that drives past
this church sees this as a vitalcomponent in the community, like
those people, they open that,you know, this, this facility is
(19:14):
open for, we have, you know,basketball programs that are
here regularly, that have notaffiliated with a church, but
people are here to use facilityin their blocks of nonprofits
that use it for educationalpurposes, or all that kind of
stuff on a regular basis, sothat there's opportunity for
people not only Jesus, thefacilities, but for our
congregants, the people whoworship here to serve and mix
(19:36):
and mingle and again, be thehands and feet of Christ in that
context. And so it starts withquestions like, Who are we? Who
lives in our neighborhood, andwhat are their needs and how can
we serve them? A guy namedDarrell garden is a friend of
mine in New Zealand, and he's anAnglican priest, and he's an
(19:57):
Anglican priest in the Catholiccoast in the US Beyond. And he
talks about, he is the priest ofa parish. And that's the idea
that we're trying to get back toyou in terms of a church, a
parish is, you know, that I amthe priests of this parish, even
if these people don't, don'tworship here, or even if they
(20:17):
don't even have a faith, theysee me as a spiritual leader in
some sense. So when it comestime to wedding, you know, to
promote a wedding or do aservice together. I do
premarital counseling with themand and talk about the faith
aspect and how important that isin a marriage, you know, when
it's when it's there's grief,sickness, or sadness. And so he
(20:39):
says, I've served this entirecommunity in a whole lot of
ways. And so and he's trying toempower the people in the
congregation to see it in thesame way. And so that's where
that that stems from that ourcongregations are, you know,
it's a parish, that we servethese people. And so a way to
kind of influence and share thelevel of Christ in our
(21:01):
neighborhood.
Joshua Johnson (21:02):
So then what does it look like if we have a
parish mentality that there arepeople that we're serving in our
neighborhood, and this mile halfradius of our church? And if
there are other congregationsaround there, what does it look
like to start to hold hands andtogether and say, we're going to
(21:23):
work on this together as theBody of Christ, and not just my
individual, brick church, andyour individual brick church?
Dan Kreiss (21:32):
What so think about if we're able to do that, what
that communicates, you know, andhow powerful that communicates.
So again, we see, we hear in thepolitical arena, the United
States, you know, this, theseguys, and those guys, and they
are just at odds with oneanother. And so, again, the
none, particularly, possiblyothers who don't have a strong
(21:54):
church affiliation, drive up ourstreet, we, you know, as a
Presbyterian Church, you'reright across the street Baptist
Church, and then right acrossthe street, the other way is
Methodist Church, and they go,well, but what's wrong with
those people? They don'tunderstand. Right? They don't
know like, why there's so manydifferent churches that will
they don't The thinking is,potentially they all like each
other, they don't work together.
Again, we want to eliminate thatas much as possible. And, you
(22:15):
know, you and I, who areconnected to the church realize
that's that may be, honestly,sometimes that's how it started.
That's how we have some kind ofsome denominations for sure. And
that's why in some towns, thereis a Baptist church on every
corner because they keptsplitting, right? They're all
the same Baptists, I guess, butthey didn't get along with
others. So there's some truth inthat. But again, I don't think
(22:36):
that's something we would wantto communicate. So how can we
join together? What are what arethe ways that we're not being
cared for, and ultimatelyconcerned about maintaining our
buildings or our style, or allthose kinds of things and
saying, This is a community thatGod has placed us in this is
where we worship? How can wejoin together, so let's hold
hands. And so that means thatthe leadership in those churches
(22:59):
needs to be intentional aboutthat, you know, meeting together
gathering together, it meansthat that however, a church is
structured, the eldership needsto be on board with that, and,
and work to make that happen.
And again, it's something that'sgot to be intentional, because,
you know, I work and it's prettyhard work to try and have
(23:20):
relationships with myneighboring churches, and it's,
you know, because this word,this, this congregation is all
consuming, right? You just,there's so much happening all
the time, there's no time forall that. But we know, wait a
minute, you know, there's notime for not doing that.
Ultimately, again, if we'retrying to share the love of
Christ and, and communicate tothe wider community that, hey,
(23:44):
we are all in this together, andyou can, you know, a few worship
key or your worship across thestreet or whatever, however you
find faith, we want to encouragethat. And so it's gonna, I like
to think of it as kind of moreof a kingdom mentality than a
denominational or, or even, youknow, even non denominational
(24:06):
churches still have aterritorial kind of bent,
offering. So we're just sayingthis into the kingdom and
Palace, the kingdom of God. Andthe kingdom of God is very
diverse, and God accepts toworship in all sorts of ways.
It's tough, but again, as wethink about emerging leaders,
Christian leaders, and that kindof stuff, helping them develop
(24:27):
that mentality. And so, youknow, the next generation is not
very denominational. They don'tcare about that a lot. So they
don't wake up and go, Oh, I'm aPresbyterian or I'm a Baptist,
or I'm out there, like, I have afaith. I'm going to find a
community that helps me nurturethat faith, whatever that looks
like.
Joshua Johnson (24:44):
So as you're researching the beliefs of young
people and what they'repassionate about what they're
what they want, in a church anda faith community. What are some
of the things that they'relooking for? or that would stand
out in a faith community, we
Dan Kreiss (25:04):
need to discuss these things. But it's also
risky to say, here are thethings right because one, every
person is an individual andevery person is different. Every
area in the country is slightlydifferent culturally, and, and
all that kind of stuff. And sothere's some different things,
but there are some generality.
So they desire an openness and agenuineness. Something that's
that's real, that's tangible. Sowhen, you know when messages are
(25:28):
communicated, that it's not justintellectual, it's like I, you
know, here's the theology or theintellect or the faith aspect
behind it. Now, what does it do?
You know, they tend to be peoplewho gravitate towards action.
You know, Tony Campo called thatthe Praxis principle, you know,
(25:49):
put it into practice, and thefaith comes behind it, you know,
as we work it out. So that's,that's one aspect. I think
another aspect have been veryconcerned about this word. And
that's, it's a, it's a difficultword, currently, in the last
three, four or five years, butjustice, you know, that they
have a specific idea about whatjustice is. And that's not
(26:14):
necessarily always accurate. Butagain, seeing a community where
people are, are focused on thatand desire to kind of work out
tangibly justice issues. So youknow, what that has to do with
the for some of them, it's, it'secological, you know, or they're
(26:34):
worried about, about the planetand how we care for the planet.
And what we do that for others,it's, it's justice issues
surrounding race, or gender, orall those kinds of things. And
some of its more fluid thanthat. But those kinds of things
are pretty again, important tothem. They, they don't desire
(26:55):
again, gender is ageneralization, but they, most
of them gravitate away or moveaway from a congregation that
seems to be attached on a Sundaymorning. And then I, the rest of
my life is disconnected, youknow, I'm stuck, you know, that
habitual kind of worship anddoing the things and dressing
(27:16):
up, or however we do it, andthen it has no tangible
connection to any other aspectin my life. I know that there's
so many different from when youand I were younger, you know, I
then churches always been likethat. But I guess for a long
time there was enough,particularly in the United
States, there was just enoughcultural connection and cultural
(27:36):
need to be part of a church thatwould many people just kept it
that this generation was saying,I'm not going to keep it up just
just for the sake of looking thepart.
Joshua Johnson (27:49):
I mean, you're looking at 30% or so that are
nuns that have no religiousaffiliation, that the emerging
generations are coming in, andthere probably isn't going to
there won't be enough people inthose generations then to keep
up what we have been doing inthe church. So the church is
(28:10):
going to start so radically lookdifferent than it had in the
past, because we don't havethat. And what ways can we
started to reorient the churchin ways that faith will be
thriving, institutions may not,but faith in Jesus, and the body
of Christ can thrive indifferent ways, in areas and
(28:31):
places. This
Dan Kreiss (28:33):
is going to be very difficult. It's gonna be a tough
transition, particularly again,in the United States, most of
the rest of the Western worldhas already experienced this, I
got I lived in New Zealand forfor 15 years 4% 4% of the
population, consider themselvesChristian, you know, and attend
(28:54):
church regularly. You know,Australians are saying England's
the same, it's going to betumultuous, and and difficult,
and it's going to potentiallyfeel like God has abandoned us
or, you know, faith is gone, andthere's no people left. But how
one of the people thatinterviewed for this, your name
is Mackenzie Neil, he wasplanting a church in the Tri
(29:16):
Cities. That was for basicallyemerging generations, you know,
the inner city folks who, again,felt this affected from the
church, and yet this church wasvibrant and growing. And she
said that some of that is whatshe called a winnowing. And that
actually, the pandemic was a wasa kind of a windowing. And we've
(29:38):
seen that, right? We know thatthat's, you know, all the people
who were like, Oh, we did thisall the time, and we we just
don't anymore. But the ones thathave remained are the ones for
whom faith was vital. And sothat means that yes, some of our
churches and institutions willwill end up closing but
(29:59):
hopefully prayerfully the onesthat remain open or more
vibrant, having that kingdommentality and saying, I continue
to worship, you know, and God isstill God, God still holds all
this together. And, you know,ultimately, when we think about
making some changes and makingsome tough decisions, and you
know, if it means kind ofblending some separate small
(30:22):
congregations to be more vitaland active in the community,
then what does God findfaithfulness? And how can I
express myself fully in myworship, and it might not look
like what we did, you know, 10or 15 years ago, and it might
mean, you know, my tradition, itmight be, okay, if we want to
engage next generation, we mighthave to get rid of some of the
(30:43):
bells and smells, because theydon't, that doesn't, you know,
all that kind of stuff might notwork so that I don't know. So we
just kind of, again, be open tothat, continue to ask them,
continuing to share with themthe traditions that that really
matter to us, and why theymatter to us that we've kind of
winnowed out and saying, This iswhy these are important. And
(31:03):
even if you don't, as a youngperson don't really understand
or engage with this is why it'svital, you know, then,
hopefully, they, they capture itand understand it. And it's
vital for their fate anddevelopment as well.
Joshua Johnson (31:16):
So what as you were interviewing Mackenzie, the
Tri Cities in her church was forthe emergent generation, and it
was thriving, what were some ofthe things that she was doing
that was making it thriving,
Dan Kreiss (31:30):
they were very intentional about recognizing
who was in the community, andthen trying to serve that and
making it a safe space. Therewas a family there who had
children on the autisticspectrum. And so that was, you
know, the worship is a difficultplace for for families like
that, right, there's a whole lotgoing on, particularly, you
(31:52):
know, under the contemporaryservice, we got drums going on.
So there's a lot of noise, andthere's kind of movement and all
that kind of stuff. So theyactually recognize that talk to
the families. And then theydedicated like, what they call
STEM area, like a hands ontactile kind of area with some
carpet and some things and someearphones, and I have to say,
it's fine. If this is where youneed to be or where you need
(32:14):
kids, we welcome you in thisspace. Same with with children,
you know, and we know thatchildren can be disruptive at
times, right, and you're in themiddle of a, you know, a deep
point in a sermon, and they're ababy whales or something like
that. And you're like, Oh, Ijust lost the moment. So kind of
(32:35):
recognizing, that's part ofreality, but making space for
them. You know, there's manyother churches there, rather
than they've given up on the JRChurch idea where you know,
you'd have to come for thechildren's rested, and then
they're out so that we can kindof do the grown up stuff. Many
churches have said, well, we'regonna gather together and we're
gonna gather them in the back ofour sanctuary or back of our
(32:57):
place, so that they're stillhere and engaged and hear it.
And we'll keep them engaged indifferent ways. So the parents
can be free to worship, thosekinds of things. They and
Mackenzie church again, the waythat they prayed for one
another, was was intentional,the way that she structured the
service was intentional, thattypes of music, how we did
(33:20):
music, that it wasn't justwasn't just a passive event that
somebody showed up to watchthis, I sing a couple songs,
that's my only involvement. Andthen I leave again, but there
was interaction, and all thatgood stuff, all of it, again, as
much as possible to be engagedin developing communities. And
then outside of Sunday morningworship, then how they gathered
(33:42):
together and other ways toserve. To read Scripture to to
care for one another, when theywere needs, all that kind of
stuff was very intentional. Itwas a small, it's not a huge
congregation, obviously, thebigger you get, the more
tantalizing Nick gets. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (33:59):
if you get big lead, yeah, we could have some
of them over here and one sidedoing it and gathering together
and some of them over here.
It's, it's alright, we couldfigure it out. How we could
continue to be intentional moveout towards our community. You
talk a lot. In your book, youtalk about justice oriented,
multi inclusive churches. Whatfor you? What does that mean for
(34:20):
us? And how can we start to getto be justice oriented, multi
inclusive,
Dan Kreiss (34:26):
that idea of multi inclusive, that this kind of a
word that we coined, ultimatelyrecognizing that, you know, FM's
church and my church in terms ofmulti ethnic were very
different. But what were someother ways that we were needed
to be inclusive and again,thinking about educational
academic levels, socio economiclevel, gender, all that kind of
(34:50):
stuff. How are we kind ofincluding or excluding people
and what does what is God'sdesire for the kingdom of God?
Um, so again, in our readingParticularly I look at the Old
Testament, think, here's the OldTestament that Israel allied saw
themselves as God's chosenpeople, right? That's an
exclusive OR, and yetconsistently through the Old
Testament, our messages ofinclusion, all the time it
(35:14):
bright, right all it back to, tothe 10 commandments, you know
the 10 commandments that youwill keep the Sabbath that's in
there as a as an inclusive thingbecause it says, You will keep
the Sabbath and that there'srules about, you're not allowed
to have your servants work inyour honor, you know, they need
a day of rest as well, eventhough they're not part of your
(35:35):
community, we want to care forthem, and they need to
experience justice as well. Andso that's where we begin to
realize that again, that's justobviously moves to add it to the
New Testament, and where becomeseven more clear and powerful,
and so that justice in the multiinclusiveness are kind of
intertwined, and blend together.
So
Joshua Johnson (35:56):
a lot of people in the West are experiencing the
decline of church, theinstitutional church is
declining. You're, you'reworking with emerging
generations, young people, wherethey have less religious
affiliation than before, what isgiven you hope, and the emerging
(36:17):
generations, what do you see inthem that will carry the flame
of Christ into the world,
Dan Kreiss (36:26):
those generations just have so much, I have so
much energy, and enthusiasm and,and they they do have a desire
to make the world a betterplace, to be honest, you have
integrity, to to share all theseprinciples of faith, right? All
(36:48):
these principle that that Christtaught. And so what the
disconnection comes when theydon't see the church as offering
those things, when I have hope,because I think ultimately, the
church does that as, as themanifestation of the work of
Christ, I think the church isthe best hope for the world. And
(37:08):
so as we kind of help them,experience those things, and
recognize so as we become as, aschurches, as individuals, as a
faith community, more inclusive,more intentional, more active,
and dynamic, and expressions ofour faith. I think they're on
board, and they're excited aboutit, I don't know, you know, our
(37:31):
hope is your hope, my hope,everyone's hope is that there's
going to be another greatawakening, my fear is that some
of that is because we wanted tomake sure that these
institutions don't fall and weonly need some to prop them up.
And that's their own motivation,from my perspective, and the
motivation, and ultimately, thatthe love of Christ can be
(37:52):
displayed. And all will knowthat Jesus is Savior. That's the
motivation. And so what thatlooks like, is not necessarily
the institutions that we thathave done that in the past with
Matt, look, good friend, carepal, in their book growing young
talk about giving the keys tosome of these, these decisions
to the next generation. Youknow, and so some of that is
(38:15):
like, you know, here we are,we're the older adults who this
has been our experience, but wewant to, we want you to have
faith, we will work with youwork with you guide you as much
as possible, but we are you arenow leading us. How do you reach
your own generation that I thinkthat's, you know, that's on I
(38:36):
have hope, because that, youknow, in this, this
congregation, this community, Isee it happening, that there are
some and emerging generations.
And again, it's not justteenagers, right? It's those 40
and under there that are thatare excited and passionate and
faithful and, and wanting to seethe love of God displayed and
shared his lips Foxwell andthat's fantastic. And yet,
(38:57):
they're doing it in a way thatis more inclusive than they are
willing to cross the street in away that we haven't before. And
I get that because they're not.
They're not hindered by thisdenominationalism or all that
kind of stuff. They're justlike, hey, we're because that's
been their experience and otherways. We're together in this,
you have a faith and I have afaith. You know, in our, in our
(39:21):
culture in the West, UnitedStates in particular, there's
that long time of falsehoodsversus Protestantism. Right.
And, you know, you know, when Iwasn't allowed then but when
Kennedy was, was elected, youknow, that was a huge deal. And
we put a Catholic and as, aspresident that's That's
craziness. Right? But that's forthis generation. Again, it's you
(39:44):
have a vibrant face if youpractice it in the Anglican
Church or the Catholic Church orthe non diluted
nondenominational church orwhatever. That's irrelevant. The
bottom line is where theconnections that we have and we
have a vibrant face, however youexpress that is fine, but you
These are the areas that we wantto serve together and are open
to that. And this is exciting tosee.
Joshua Johnson (40:04):
Oh, what's the one one thing that you would
love your readers to get out ofyour book?
Dan Kreiss (40:08):
Yes, the one again, I want them to be encouraged.
The this is not again, it's notformulaic. It's not a book that
says, Hey, these are the stepsto do what you do. I one thing I
love them to get out is to, toread it and feel like, well,
this is what is happening in ourneighborhood. And how can we be
multi inclusive? In ourneighborhood? Who are the people
(40:31):
that we are not barren oranything like that we're not
serving them, the adults feel apart of things. What are some,
you know, asking some hardquestions? What what are some
things that we are doing,intentionally or
unintentionally, that areputting up barriers that maybe
we need to not do anymore? Andagain, that's, that's a long
process. And it's, it'd bedifficult discussion sometimes.
(40:53):
But again, if we're, if we'reopen to that, I think we've
become more true reflections of,of the church that that God
ordained and God desires. AndI'm excited, I hope. And at
first, we were, who put ittogether. And we wrote this
together in the hopes that itwill move the needle summon and
will again, make us more asChristians as followers of
Christ as churches, betterreflections of God's love and,
(41:19):
and working together. And, youknow, when when all this kind of
went down a few years ago, thatpandemic and all the racial
injustice, and all that stuff isin the middle of us writing. You
know, it, it bothered me, thatpolitical leaders and these
people feeling this tensiondidn't go to the church and say,
(41:40):
Hey, how do you does do it? Howhave you guys worked on because
we weren't ones that wereproviding the answer. We should
have been the mod. I haven'tgotten all that went down, they
should have gone, hey, look inthe church, they know how it's
done. Let's go to them foradvice. But that wasn't what
happened, because we're kind ofbehind the eight ball in that.
So wouldn't it be great if weare the models for a more
(42:01):
inclusive, more just more caringsociety that I think God has
called us to be? You know,people constantly refer to the
church and they Oh, we we needto be like those people in our
politics, in our government inour, you know, in our schools
and all that kind of stuff.
Would that's, that's our hope.
Yes.
Joshua Johnson (42:19):
Yes. Let's, let's help. Let's, let's see it.
Let's make it happen. Dan, acouple quick questions. One, if
you go back to your 21 year oldself, what advice would you
give?
Dan Kreiss (42:29):
Oh, man. I go bungee jumping because I never did. And
now like I'm never did a I did.
I'm on
Joshua Johnson (42:38):
New Zealand was where I went bungee jumping on
the bridge Kawarau bridge whereit started, where the first
bungee
Dan Kreiss (42:47):
is happening. And at the other four of the poor youth
ministry person, I didn't havethem. I was like, man, 100
bucks. That's a lot of money.
But now now I'm like, I'm goingback to like, I don't know if I
could do it now. You know, I'dlose. I might lose some teeth.
You know, they're not as tightas they used to be. So I think,
yeah, take more adventures, bewilling to do more things. But
(43:09):
again, I'm amazed. So me and my21 year old son, I don't know
that he would listen to me.
That's the problem.
Joshua Johnson (43:18):
Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure. It's good. Anything
you've been reading or watchinglately, you could recommend?
Dan Kreiss (43:26):
Yeah, when I was just thinking about that. I've
been reading some stuff on I'mleading a group to Guatemala,
I'm reading some more stuffabout leading leading people
into different cultures andcontexts. I'm trying to think of
the author and I don't haveenough top my head. But there's
some good stuff out there about,again, being intentional about
(43:50):
cross cultural connections andall that good stuff and having
them my desire when I take thisgroup is that they experienced
worship that's completelydifferent, their own and yet
just as a worshipful, you know,on that they have, you know,
they will understand thelanguage, they will understand a
lot of you know, what's goingon. But God is still being
worshiped, and how exciting thatis. If I could think of the
(44:12):
author, I send it to you, but Ican't off the top of their head,
sorry.
Joshua Johnson (44:16):
You know, we I, I run a missions organization.
We have some people on Guatemalaand some incredible things that
are happening, and you're seeingsome of these things that we've
been talking about this, youknow, Justice oriented, multi
inclusive at churches. I mean,the people that we have on the
ground, the church looks a lotdifferent than it does here in
the West, but the Jesus has beenworshipped and glorified and and
(44:40):
people on the margins are beinglifted up, and we're seeing a
lot of incredible fruit there sothat you're gonna have a good
time and in Guatemala. Well,Dan, thank you for this
conversation. It was it wasyeah, it was fantastic. I love
that. We got to talk about theemergent generations that there
are a bunch of non affiliated Dopeople, some nuns, but there is
(45:02):
some hope that they they lovethe world. They love others that
they don't see denominations.
They see authentic faith, andthat is experienced and lived
out and embodied. And that wecan be churches that do that as
well that we can be justiceoriented, multi, inclusive
churches, then we can start towalk in those ways that we're
(45:23):
here. We're a church foreveryone. So thank you for this
conversations. Great.
Dan Kreiss (45:30):
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Joshua Johnson (45:32):
Thank you.
You know, our hope is your hope, my hope,
(00:03):
everyone's hope is that there'sgoing to be another great
awakening. My fear is that someof that is because we wanted to
make sure that theseinstitutions don't fall and we
only need some to prop them up.
And that's the wrong motivationfrom my perspective, and the
motivation and ultimately thatthe love of Christ can be
displayed. And all will knowthat Jesus is Savior. That's the
(00:23):
motivation. And so what thatlooks like is not necessarily
the institutions that we thathave done that in the past that
might look different.
Joshua Johnson (00:45):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
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(01:08):
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stars. Thank you so much. Youknow what else would help us
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network? Tell them how much youenjoy it and let them know that
they should be listening aswell. If you're new here,
(01:31):
welcome. If you want to digdeeper find us on social media
at shifting culture podcast,where I post video clips and
quotes and interact with all ofyou. Previous guests on the show
have included only Gulabi JamalWilliams and Timothy Paul Jones.
You go back listen to thoseepisodes and more. But today's
guest is Dan Christ. Dan hasgiven his career to Christian
(01:53):
ministry with emerginggenerations in international and
domestic contexts. He served inministry in New Zealand for 15
years with Youth for Christ KnoxPresbyterian Church, and HUD
international boys school. Whenthey returned to the US Dan and
his wife Cindy, and their fourchildren settled in Bristol,
Tennessee, where he served asprofessor of youth ministry, and
(02:13):
Dean of the School of missionsat King University. Dan's book
is a church for everyone, whichhe co wrote with FM Smith, Dan
and FM are passionate about thechurch and want to ensure that
emerging generations find thechurch to be the example to the
world of genuine community andcontexts for spiritual nurture
that God desires it to be. Danand I have a conversation about
(02:36):
how churches can better engagemerchant generations and become
more just an inclusive faithcommunities. Dan discusses his
experience ministering in NewZealand in the US. And he
emphasizes the importance ofunderstanding one's community,
being intentional and servingothers and working together
across denominations. We alsoget into insights from Dan's
(02:58):
research on what young peoplevalue in churches, such as
authenticity, action on justiceissues, and community. Join us
as we figure out how to engageemerging generations and become
justice oriented, multiinclusive communities of faith.
Here's my conversation with DanChrist. Dan, welcome to shifting
culture really excited to haveyou on the podcast. Thanks for
(03:20):
joining me.
Dan Kreiss (03:22):
Yeah, glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
Joshua Johnson (03:25):
I'd love to hear a little bit of your story of
your relationship with Jesus,your your time in New Zealand
going and going there, what's,what brought you to New Zealand?
And why? Why do you love Jesus?
Dan Kreiss (03:40):
I guess with most of us in life, they're all kind of
wrapped up together, right? Youkind of your gloves for the Lord
kind of leads you by says thatyou think how on earth did I get
here and you know, you look backand you go, wow, that was
completely unanticipated,unexpected, but hear where you
are, and kind of grow anddevelop into the person that
(04:00):
got, you know, design created usto be anything. You know, I had
made these choices, and Ithought about them in advance, I
probably would not have ended upwhere I am. But because we're we
allow ourselves to be led. Itjust opens up all sorts of
doors. So I mean, a short storythat I love Jesus, because the
faith that my mother inparticular, shared was kind of
(04:24):
bestowed to me in such avibrant, real, genuine way that
there was never any doubt in mymind that that this relationship
that she had was Christ wasabsolutely real. To the point
that is sometimes frustrated me,you know, we we will she was a
single mother, two boys, youknow, and we, you know, money
(04:49):
was tight. And he it was it wasdifficult for us. There were
times when he lived on the eastcoast of Taiwan and Spain and
there were times we didn't haveenough heat for the house and
have a little kerosene heaterand the be ice on the inside of
my house. My window in mybedroom, sometimes in the
winter, and the car wouldn'tstart. She'd get frustrated and
shoot. Alright, we're goinginside. So we build, you know,
after DOS, the more you goinside, it's our last break. And
(05:11):
she got us together and I'mholding as impressive Alright,
let's go lunch to get up and carwould start I'd like you got to
be kidding me. So the love thatdoesn't count, maybe we just
need to go to a mechanic. Hesays, We got him again, we're
going to go which again, it'sjust fast. Again to this day,
she's in her 80s Now, still verymuch that kind of that, that I
(05:32):
know this one God needs or Goddesires from us. Let's let's do
this thing. You know, completefaith in the jury to New Zealand
was kind of tied up in that, youknow, I again, my own desire. I
had been interested in lawenforcement NACA stuff for a
long time and had shadowed somepolice officers and went to
study and thought, lawenforcement, FBI, something like
(05:53):
that. But in my community, whereI grew up in Coatesville,
Pennsylvania, so a little,little old steel town, that's,
you know, the steel mills allshut down and all kinds of
stuff, and had never experiencedany, you know, I went to church
and had these criminal acts up,but I went to college, and there
was a kind of play guitar sortof, and I play guitar for
(06:13):
university one time and thesepeople come say, hey, we need
you. I was like, What do youmean, you need me to this thing
called young life. So I gotinvolved in young life, just
playing guitar and it just kindof opened up doors, I realized,
you know, I had a passion forand I was still a young person
myself, but just kind of thoughtmaybe God is calling me to be a
(06:33):
fence at the top of the cliff,rather than the ambulance at the
bottom of the cliff, you know,kind of picking up the scraps
that's kind of prevent peoplefrom getting to the point where
they need law enforcement. So Itransferred I went to Eastern
University, which definitelyRobbins Tony Campbell, all those
guys and, and again, continue togrow in my understanding of who
God was. And it was a great itwas a great time and a great
(06:56):
place to kind of nurture thatfaith and again, with mentor was
like, like Duffy Robbins and,and others it was fantastic. Got
fully involved in young usthere. Hetrick was the area
director at again, a real man ofGod and discipling. And then
kind of I guess, Tony was atthat time can follow is that
time speaking all over theworld. And he I guess he had
(07:17):
some kind of speakingengagement, Australia, New
Zealand, something like that,and people and Youth for Christ
in New Zealand, heard him andthought, we need some help. And
Tony said, Well, we we got touse ministry degree, you know,
school, so calm. So these Kiwiscame and I honestly went to this
to just talk to these guysbecause I wanted to hear Kiwi
accent. That was my motivation.
But they said, Dan, we we thinkyou're a fit. And we'd like you
(07:41):
to come come for a year and seewhat happens. And so I graduated
and left a few days later to goto New Zealand. Again, this is
an old, so this is this is late80s. So I left Reagan was still
president, there's no internet,or no cellphones, a phone call
back home to my now wife with mygirlfriend a year behind me or
(08:03):
my mother was $3.70 a minute.
And I'm on you know, amongstsupport. I released support for
this. So there weren't a lot ofphone calls. And that was
terrible letter writing. It wasit was tough. Yeah. So and I
went for a year worth 3d ForChrist's lived in old for at
risk boys for a long time. I hadbeen again, I was suburbanite.
(08:26):
So you know, mostly middleclass, youth ministry kind of
experience. But this wassomething totally different was
a new culture and then newcultures, and living in an over
at risk, you know, street kidsand that kind of stuff. And that
just opened my eyes. And youknow, so the year finished, I
went, I came home to the UnitedStates and convinced my wife,
(08:49):
well, let's get married, andlet's go back for another year.
She's like, Oh, that sounds fun.
And we lived there together for17 years. And just our children
are born there. It was just afantastic experience. And again,
I was a pretty typical middleclass kid in the United States.
And, you know, I love the US.
(09:09):
But living overseas for thatlength of time, certainly
transformed my thinking and myunderstanding both of my faith
and my own culture and all thatkind of stuff. And I'm not
saying that my faith was aculturally conceived faith
because it was genuine butcertainly over there. It was
different. And it kind of mademe kind of connect to my faith
(09:32):
in a different way than than Ihad in the United States just
observing things differently andthen and experiencing things
differently and and connectingwith other people who had a
faith that was also genuine butvery different than my own
because their life theirexperience, their worldview is
completely different. And itjust it just continued to mold
and shape me unless there was inthese were in exam for 17 years
(09:55):
and then got a call to teach torun direct to a Duffy Robbins
did and eat Started at KingUniversity, which is a small
Presbyterian school in Bristol,Tennessee. And so as I was
training others to be pastors,and did that for about 15 years
in Bristol, and so all thoseexperiences, kind of led to, you
know, me thinking and writingand, and studying about emerging
(10:19):
generations and just I have apassion for young people in
particular, those and emerginggenerations in their connection,
not just to the physicaltradition of church, but to a
genuine relationship with Jesus.
And so, understanding that, asare in the United States, our
culture shifts, there are somethings that potentially the
(10:40):
church can and maybe should bedoing to help young people make
stronger, better connections,and so that it's a lifelong kind
of thing,
Joshua Johnson (10:52):
some of the stuff that you wrote about, and
that, in this new book, a churchfor everyone is based on some of
your research that you did foryour PhD. Right? And how did you
connect with frm? To start towrite this book? And what is
your goal? What was your goal?
Setting out?
Dan Kreiss (11:11):
So again, initially, the book started out as
dissertation. But it's, it's,which will make it seem like the
book is academic. It's one I'mnot a great academic. So it's
not academic, a relatively easyread. But it was basically
again, me trying to my passion,alas, Vol. Two was connecting
emerging generations to thechurch in a real and by the way,
(11:33):
we keep hearing this in theethos, this idea of the nuns and
this growing group of nuns like,you know, 20% 30% of the merging
generations are nuns. They'renot wearing a habit and not
Catholic this mean to NLN EDS,right there that have no, no
identified faith. Oh, certainlynot a traditional faith. And so
(11:54):
as I'm hearing this, I'm kind ofasking questions and wondering.
And so it began to, that waswhat my research was based on
and some of that research.
Again, this is just an academicexercise at the time, I
interviewed a whole bunch ofpeople who are doing ministry,
and one of those people that Iinterviewed was F, and then
completed that it's not good.
That was hard work. And I'vedone it, let's move on to the
(12:15):
next thing. And my editor, whowas a friend of mine, and then
my dissertation supervisor waslike this, this Mo, people need
to read this on just us. And I'msorry, really, that seems like
work. And I'm really done. Youknow, I finished my M div, and
then went straight into my,like, demand. And so it was like
(12:36):
six years, I haven't seen mykids, six years, what are you
thinking? So but we've kind offloated it out there. And
somebody decided they wanted topick it up. But they just
thought, Dan, this is a reallystrong book, it'll be even
stronger if we put another voicein. And so they, they reached
out the extra amo board. And sothe two of us collaborated, then
(12:57):
some of the information andcontent of the book comes from
his writing and his season,Sacramento, so he's got in a
very different context than Iam. And then some is mine. So
together, it just makes for abroader understanding. So his is
his input is a lot of thinkingabout justice oriented kind of
issues. And that's somethingthat emerging generations are
(13:20):
very passionate about. And sothey're wanting to see, you
know, is the church doing whatit what it espouses to do as it
it making a difference in thecommunities and making a
difference in the lives ofpeople. So that was kind of his
area and my areas, again,particularly young people, but
also I was at the time, Idecided in East Tennessee,
Bristol, Tennessee. So I am in acounty that is 96%. Caucasian.
(13:46):
So when we think of diversity,that, like ethnic diversity was
almost an impossibility. Youknow, the, the campus that I was
on was much more diverse thanthe rest of the county. But the
church that I worshiped in, wasnot very diverse, because it
couldn't be unless we sabotagedthe one or two local African
American churches, then you guyscame operating more so that we
(14:07):
can be ethnically diverse, thatwas never going to work. But
again, as I've talked tostudents, and as I continue to
read and research, I realizedthat that there was a whole lot.
There were a lot of people thatI didn't know our surrounding
area of our congregation thatwere diverse in other ways other
than just ethnic ethnicity. Andthey also weren't connecting to
(14:28):
our church. And what were thosethings that were different? And
what are the things that youknow, that unintentional walls
or barriers that our individualcongregations put up that says,
These are the people that belonghere and you don't? And so
that's kind of the question thatwe began to wrestle with and ask
and and so hopefully, we addresssome of that in this book church
(14:48):
for
Joshua Johnson (14:48):
everyone. So then what are some of those
barriers that basically wall upother outsiders and say you
don't belong? We only only thesetimes. So people belong in this
church, what are these barriers?
Dan Kreiss (15:04):
But so you're likely you probably have heard 1963
Martin Luther King says, youknow, 11 o'clock on a Sunday
morning is the most segregatedhour in the United States. And
so he's obviously they arespecifically talking about
racial segregation. And we know,MLK and and what he stood for
and what the arguments were atthat time. Well, you move on
(15:26):
from there, and you think, thisgeneration, so the ones that are
born from 2000, on in the UnitedStates, and actually in other
parts of the Western world aregoing to be the most diverse
generation ever. You know,they're saying by 2035, if
somewhere between 2035 and 50,cases are no longer going to be
a majority, they're going to bethe largest minority. Right? And
(15:50):
so that we get we growincreasingly diverse. But for
emerging generations, diversity,whether it's ethnic diversity,
whether it's educationaldiversity, whether it's social
standing on stuff, every otheraspect of their lives, in
school, in their sports, intheir other activities, or music
(16:12):
programs, when they go tocollege or university, you want
to go to a job, all thosethings, because that's the
generation there. That's a muchmore diverse generation. That's
everywhere. And then on Sundaymorning, you're looking to go,
why? Why is this context sodifferent than every other
aspect of my life? And so,unintentionally, I think that
(16:33):
the church is communicatingsomething to them that I don't
think the church desires tocommunicate, and that is, this
is an exclusive area. And Idon't think that's what any of
us intended, and are certainlynot what I believe that God
intends for the church. And sothat's gonna, that's the
diversity that we see. And sothey're, they're much more fluid
in that, then we are and muchmore comfortable in that aspect.
(16:56):
And that way, if the
Joshua Johnson (16:58):
church is communicating that this is an
exclusive thing, and notinclusive, what are some steps
that the church desires to bemore inclusive, that they want
to see that they know that A,the gospel is for all nations,
it's for everyone, we want to beinclusive, and be oriented
(17:22):
towards that, what are somesteps that churches can do to
start to move that direction?
The
Dan Kreiss (17:26):
steps for FM and His Church in Sacramento, and the
steps for me in my little churchin Bristol, Tennessee are not
going to be the same? Becauseit's a completely different
context. Right. And so, ratherthan kind of formulaic, and say,
Alright, any church that wantsto be diverse, here are the
things that we do. Essentially,we begin by asking some
(17:49):
questions like, Okay, this isour neighborhood, who lives in
our neighborhoods, draw a circleon a map of a mile, a mile and a
half and said, who was here? Andhow can we serve them. So it's
not necessarily about us, andmaking sure that people have
every, you know, in ourneighborhood, dark in our door
(18:09):
and are here for worship, butactually, that feel that the
church is a vital part of theirlives, even if worship is not
something they participate in.
Because we are getting gettingwe communicate the love of Jesus
in a whole lot of differentways. So I'm here now, and in
Roswell, Georgia, what, again,is much more diverse than
Bristol, Tennessee, but thechurch that I've been called to
(18:30):
is not particularly diverse, atleast not ethnically. And
there's a whole lot of reasonsfor that. I mean, there are some
very strong, vibrant churchesfor you know, we there's a
Hispanic congregation that meetsin our building at the same
time, and, you know, there's alanguage barrier for them to
come to worship with us. Sothat's a challenge. There are
(18:51):
some very strong AfricanAmerican churches within, you
know, walking distance of here.
And their worship style iscompletely different, and that's
fine. But what our desire isthat anyone that drives past
this church sees this as a vitalcomponent in the community, like
those people, they open that,you know, this, this facility is
(19:14):
open for, we have, you know,basketball programs that are
here regularly, that have notaffiliated with a church, but
people are here to use facilityin their blocks of nonprofits
that use it for educationalpurposes, or all that kind of
stuff on a regular basis, sothat there's opportunity for
people not only Jesus, thefacilities, but for our
congregants, the people whoworship here to serve and mix
(19:36):
and mingle and again, be thehands and feet of Christ in that
context. And so it starts withquestions like, Who are we? Who
lives in our neighborhood, andwhat are their needs and how can
we serve them? A guy namedDarrell garden is a friend of
mine in New Zealand, and he's anAnglican priest, and he's an
(19:57):
Anglican priest in the Catholiccoast in the US Beyond. And he
talks about, he is the priest ofa parish. And that's the idea
that we're trying to get back toyou in terms of a church, a
parish is, you know, that I amthe priests of this parish, even
if these people don't, don'tworship here, or even if they
(20:17):
don't even have a faith, theysee me as a spiritual leader in
some sense. So when it comestime to wedding, you know, to
promote a wedding or do aservice together. I do
premarital counseling with themand and talk about the faith
aspect and how important that isin a marriage, you know, when
it's when it's there's grief,sickness, or sadness. And so he
(20:39):
says, I've served this entirecommunity in a whole lot of
ways. And so and he's trying toempower the people in the
congregation to see it in thesame way. And so that's where
that that stems from that ourcongregations are, you know,
it's a parish, that we servethese people. And so a way to
kind of influence and share thelevel of Christ in our
(21:01):
neighborhood.
Joshua Johnson (21:02):
So then what does it look like if we have a
parish mentality that there arepeople that we're serving in our
neighborhood, and this mile halfradius of our church? And if
there are other congregationsaround there, what does it look
like to start to hold hands andtogether and say, we're going to
(21:23):
work on this together as theBody of Christ, and not just my
individual, brick church, andyour individual brick church?
Dan Kreiss (21:32):
What so think about if we're able to do that, what
that communicates, you know, andhow powerful that communicates.
So again, we see, we hear in thepolitical arena, the United
States, you know, this, theseguys, and those guys, and they
are just at odds with oneanother. And so, again, the
none, particularly, possiblyothers who don't have a strong
(21:54):
church affiliation, drive up ourstreet, we, you know, as a
Presbyterian Church, you'reright across the street Baptist
Church, and then right acrossthe street, the other way is
Methodist Church, and they go,well, but what's wrong with
those people? They don'tunderstand. Right? They don't
know like, why there's so manydifferent churches that will
they don't The thinking is,potentially they all like each
other, they don't work together.
Again, we want to eliminate thatas much as possible. And, you
(22:15):
know, you and I, who areconnected to the church realize
that's that may be, honestly,sometimes that's how it started.
That's how we have some kind ofsome denominations for sure. And
that's why in some towns, thereis a Baptist church on every
corner because they keptsplitting, right? They're all
the same Baptists, I guess, butthey didn't get along with
others. So there's some truth inthat. But again, I don't think
(22:36):
that's something we would wantto communicate. So how can we
join together? What are what arethe ways that we're not being
cared for, and ultimatelyconcerned about maintaining our
buildings or our style, or allthose kinds of things and
saying, This is a community thatGod has placed us in this is
where we worship? How can wejoin together, so let's hold
hands. And so that means thatthe leadership in those churches
(22:59):
needs to be intentional aboutthat, you know, meeting together
gathering together, it meansthat that however, a church is
structured, the eldership needsto be on board with that, and,
and work to make that happen.
And again, it's something that'sgot to be intentional, because,
you know, I work and it's prettyhard work to try and have
(23:20):
relationships with myneighboring churches, and it's,
you know, because this word,this, this congregation is all
consuming, right? You just,there's so much happening all
the time, there's no time forall that. But we know, wait a
minute, you know, there's notime for not doing that.
Ultimately, again, if we'retrying to share the love of
Christ and, and communicate tothe wider community that, hey,
(23:44):
we are all in this together, andyou can, you know, a few worship
key or your worship across thestreet or whatever, however you
find faith, we want to encouragethat. And so it's gonna, I like
to think of it as kind of moreof a kingdom mentality than a
denominational or, or even, youknow, even non denominational
(24:06):
churches still have aterritorial kind of bent,
offering. So we're just sayingthis into the kingdom and
Palace, the kingdom of God. Andthe kingdom of God is very
diverse, and God accepts toworship in all sorts of ways.
It's tough, but again, as wethink about emerging leaders,
Christian leaders, and that kindof stuff, helping them develop
(24:27):
that mentality. And so, youknow, the next generation is not
very denominational. They don'tcare about that a lot. So they
don't wake up and go, Oh, I'm aPresbyterian or I'm a Baptist,
or I'm out there, like, I have afaith. I'm going to find a
community that helps me nurturethat faith, whatever that looks
like.
Joshua Johnson (24:44):
So as you're researching the beliefs of young
people and what they'repassionate about what they're
what they want, in a church anda faith community. What are some
of the things that they'relooking for? or that would stand
out in a faith community, we
Dan Kreiss (25:04):
need to discuss these things. But it's also
risky to say, here are thethings right because one, every
person is an individual andevery person is different. Every
area in the country is slightlydifferent culturally, and, and
all that kind of stuff. And sothere's some different things,
but there are some generality.
So they desire an openness and agenuineness. Something that's
that's real, that's tangible. Sowhen, you know when messages are
(25:28):
communicated, that it's not justintellectual, it's like I, you
know, here's the theology or theintellect or the faith aspect
behind it. Now, what does it do?
You know, they tend to be peoplewho gravitate towards action.
You know, Tony Campo called thatthe Praxis principle, you know,
(25:49):
put it into practice, and thefaith comes behind it, you know,
as we work it out. So that's,that's one aspect. I think
another aspect have been veryconcerned about this word. And
that's, it's a, it's a difficultword, currently, in the last
three, four or five years, butjustice, you know, that they
have a specific idea about whatjustice is. And that's not
(26:14):
necessarily always accurate. Butagain, seeing a community where
people are, are focused on thatand desire to kind of work out
tangibly justice issues. So youknow, what that has to do with
the for some of them, it's, it'secological, you know, or they're
(26:34):
worried about, about the planetand how we care for the planet.
And what we do that for others,it's, it's justice issues
surrounding race, or gender, orall those kinds of things. And
some of its more fluid thanthat. But those kinds of things
are pretty again, important tothem. They, they don't desire
(26:55):
again, gender is ageneralization, but they, most
of them gravitate away or moveaway from a congregation that
seems to be attached on a Sundaymorning. And then I, the rest of
my life is disconnected, youknow, I'm stuck, you know, that
habitual kind of worship anddoing the things and dressing
(27:16):
up, or however we do it, andthen it has no tangible
connection to any other aspectin my life. I know that there's
so many different from when youand I were younger, you know, I
then churches always been likethat. But I guess for a long
time there was enough,particularly in the United
States, there was just enoughcultural connection and cultural
(27:36):
need to be part of a church thatwould many people just kept it
that this generation was saying,I'm not going to keep it up just
just for the sake of looking thepart.
Joshua Johnson (27:49):
I mean, you're looking at 30% or so that are
nuns that have no religiousaffiliation, that the emerging
generations are coming in, andthere probably isn't going to
there won't be enough people inthose generations then to keep
up what we have been doing inthe church. So the church is
(28:10):
going to start so radically lookdifferent than it had in the
past, because we don't havethat. And what ways can we
started to reorient the churchin ways that faith will be
thriving, institutions may not,but faith in Jesus, and the body
of Christ can thrive indifferent ways, in areas and
(28:31):
places. This
Dan Kreiss (28:33):
is going to be very difficult. It's gonna be a tough
transition, particularly again,in the United States, most of
the rest of the Western worldhas already experienced this, I
got I lived in New Zealand forfor 15 years 4% 4% of the
population, consider themselvesChristian, you know, and attend
(28:54):
church regularly. You know,Australians are saying England's
the same, it's going to betumultuous, and and difficult,
and it's going to potentiallyfeel like God has abandoned us
or, you know, faith is gone, andthere's no people left. But how
one of the people thatinterviewed for this, your name
is Mackenzie Neil, he wasplanting a church in the Tri
(29:16):
Cities. That was for basicallyemerging generations, you know,
the inner city folks who, again,felt this affected from the
church, and yet this church wasvibrant and growing. And she
said that some of that is whatshe called a winnowing. And that
actually, the pandemic was a wasa kind of a windowing. And we've
(29:38):
seen that, right? We know thatthat's, you know, all the people
who were like, Oh, we did thisall the time, and we we just
don't anymore. But the ones thathave remained are the ones for
whom faith was vital. And sothat means that yes, some of our
churches and institutions willwill end up closing but
(29:59):
hopefully prayerfully the onesthat remain open or more
vibrant, having that kingdommentality and saying, I continue
to worship, you know, and God isstill God, God still holds all
this together. And, you know,ultimately, when we think about
making some changes and makingsome tough decisions, and you
know, if it means kind ofblending some separate small
(30:22):
congregations to be more vitaland active in the community,
then what does God findfaithfulness? And how can I
express myself fully in myworship, and it might not look
like what we did, you know, 10or 15 years ago, and it might
mean, you know, my tradition, itmight be, okay, if we want to
engage next generation, we mighthave to get rid of some of the
(30:43):
bells and smells, because theydon't, that doesn't, you know,
all that kind of stuff might notwork so that I don't know. So we
just kind of, again, be open tothat, continue to ask them,
continuing to share with themthe traditions that that really
matter to us, and why theymatter to us that we've kind of
winnowed out and saying, This iswhy these are important. And
(31:03):
even if you don't, as a youngperson don't really understand
or engage with this is why it'svital, you know, then,
hopefully, they, they capture itand understand it. And it's
vital for their fate anddevelopment as well.
Joshua Johnson (31:16):
So what as you were interviewing Mackenzie, the
Tri Cities in her church was forthe emergent generation, and it
was thriving, what were some ofthe things that she was doing
that was making it thriving,
Dan Kreiss (31:30):
they were very intentional about recognizing
who was in the community, andthen trying to serve that and
making it a safe space. Therewas a family there who had
children on the autisticspectrum. And so that was, you
know, the worship is a difficultplace for for families like
that, right, there's a whole lotgoing on, particularly, you
(31:52):
know, under the contemporaryservice, we got drums going on.
So there's a lot of noise, andthere's kind of movement and all
that kind of stuff. So theyactually recognize that talk to
the families. And then theydedicated like, what they call
STEM area, like a hands ontactile kind of area with some
carpet and some things and someearphones, and I have to say,
it's fine. If this is where youneed to be or where you need
(32:14):
kids, we welcome you in thisspace. Same with with children,
you know, and we know thatchildren can be disruptive at
times, right, and you're in themiddle of a, you know, a deep
point in a sermon, and they're ababy whales or something like
that. And you're like, Oh, Ijust lost the moment. So kind of
(32:35):
recognizing, that's part ofreality, but making space for
them. You know, there's manyother churches there, rather
than they've given up on the JRChurch idea where you know,
you'd have to come for thechildren's rested, and then
they're out so that we can kindof do the grown up stuff. Many
churches have said, well, we'regonna gather together and we're
gonna gather them in the back ofour sanctuary or back of our
(32:57):
place, so that they're stillhere and engaged and hear it.
And we'll keep them engaged indifferent ways. So the parents
can be free to worship, thosekinds of things. They and
Mackenzie church again, the waythat they prayed for one
another, was was intentional,the way that she structured the
service was intentional, thattypes of music, how we did
(33:20):
music, that it wasn't justwasn't just a passive event that
somebody showed up to watchthis, I sing a couple songs,
that's my only involvement. Andthen I leave again, but there
was interaction, and all thatgood stuff, all of it, again, as
much as possible to be engagedin developing communities. And
then outside of Sunday morningworship, then how they gathered
(33:42):
together and other ways toserve. To read Scripture to to
care for one another, when theywere needs, all that kind of
stuff was very intentional. Itwas a small, it's not a huge
congregation, obviously, thebigger you get, the more
tantalizing Nick gets. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (33:59):
if you get big lead, yeah, we could have some
of them over here and one sidedoing it and gathering together
and some of them over here.
It's, it's alright, we couldfigure it out. How we could
continue to be intentional moveout towards our community. You
talk a lot. In your book, youtalk about justice oriented,
multi inclusive churches. Whatfor you? What does that mean for
(34:20):
us? And how can we start to getto be justice oriented, multi
inclusive,
Dan Kreiss (34:26):
that idea of multi inclusive, that this kind of a
word that we coined, ultimatelyrecognizing that, you know, FM's
church and my church in terms ofmulti ethnic were very
different. But what were someother ways that we were needed
to be inclusive and again,thinking about educational
academic levels, socio economiclevel, gender, all that kind of
(34:50):
stuff. How are we kind ofincluding or excluding people
and what does what is God'sdesire for the kingdom of God?
Um, so again, in our readingParticularly I look at the Old
Testament, think, here's the OldTestament that Israel allied saw
themselves as God's chosenpeople, right? That's an
exclusive OR, and yetconsistently through the Old
Testament, our messages ofinclusion, all the time it
(35:14):
bright, right all it back to, tothe 10 commandments, you know
the 10 commandments that youwill keep the Sabbath that's in
there as a as an inclusive thingbecause it says, You will keep
the Sabbath and that there'srules about, you're not allowed
to have your servants work inyour honor, you know, they need
a day of rest as well, eventhough they're not part of your
(35:35):
community, we want to care forthem, and they need to
experience justice as well. Andso that's where we begin to
realize that again, that's justobviously moves to add it to the
New Testament, and where becomeseven more clear and powerful,
and so that justice in the multiinclusiveness are kind of
intertwined, and blend together.
So
Joshua Johnson (35:56):
a lot of people in the West are experiencing the
decline of church, theinstitutional church is
declining. You're, you'reworking with emerging
generations, young people, wherethey have less religious
affiliation than before, what isgiven you hope, and the emerging
(36:17):
generations, what do you see inthem that will carry the flame
of Christ into the world,
Dan Kreiss (36:26):
those generations just have so much, I have so
much energy, and enthusiasm and,and they they do have a desire
to make the world a betterplace, to be honest, you have
integrity, to to share all theseprinciples of faith, right? All
(36:48):
these principle that that Christtaught. And so what the
disconnection comes when theydon't see the church as offering
those things, when I have hope,because I think ultimately, the
church does that as, as themanifestation of the work of
Christ, I think the church isthe best hope for the world. And
(37:08):
so as we kind of help them,experience those things, and
recognize so as we become as, aschurches, as individuals, as a
faith community, more inclusive,more intentional, more active,
and dynamic, and expressions ofour faith. I think they're on
board, and they're excited aboutit, I don't know, you know, our
(37:31):
hope is your hope, my hope,everyone's hope is that there's
going to be another greatawakening, my fear is that some
of that is because we wanted tomake sure that these
institutions don't fall and weonly need some to prop them up.
And that's their own motivation,from my perspective, and the
motivation, and ultimately, thatthe love of Christ can be
(37:52):
displayed. And all will knowthat Jesus is Savior. That's the
motivation. And so what thatlooks like, is not necessarily
the institutions that we thathave done that in the past with
Matt, look, good friend, carepal, in their book growing young
talk about giving the keys tosome of these, these decisions
to the next generation. Youknow, and so some of that is
(38:15):
like, you know, here we are,we're the older adults who this
has been our experience, but wewant to, we want you to have
faith, we will work with youwork with you guide you as much
as possible, but we are you arenow leading us. How do you reach
your own generation that I thinkthat's, you know, that's on I
(38:36):
have hope, because that, youknow, in this, this
congregation, this community, Isee it happening, that there are
some and emerging generations.
And again, it's not justteenagers, right? It's those 40
and under there that are thatare excited and passionate and
faithful and, and wanting to seethe love of God displayed and
shared his lips Foxwell andthat's fantastic. And yet,
(38:57):
they're doing it in a way thatis more inclusive than they are
willing to cross the street in away that we haven't before. And
I get that because they're not.
They're not hindered by thisdenominationalism or all that
kind of stuff. They're justlike, hey, we're because that's
been their experience and otherways. We're together in this,
you have a faith and I have afaith. You know, in our, in our
(39:21):
culture in the West, UnitedStates in particular, there's
that long time of falsehoodsversus Protestantism. Right.
And, you know, you know, when Iwasn't allowed then but when
Kennedy was, was elected, youknow, that was a huge deal. And
we put a Catholic and as, aspresident that's That's
craziness. Right? But that's forthis generation. Again, it's you
(39:44):
have a vibrant face if youpractice it in the Anglican
Church or the Catholic Church orthe non diluted
nondenominational church orwhatever. That's irrelevant. The
bottom line is where theconnections that we have and we
have a vibrant face, however youexpress that is fine, but you
These are the areas that we wantto serve together and are open
to that. And this is exciting tosee.
Joshua Johnson (40:04):
Oh, what's the one one thing that you would
love your readers to get out ofyour book?
Dan Kreiss (40:08):
Yes, the one again, I want them to be encouraged.
The this is not again, it's notformulaic. It's not a book that
says, Hey, these are the stepsto do what you do. I one thing I
love them to get out is to, toread it and feel like, well,
this is what is happening in ourneighborhood. And how can we be
multi inclusive? In ourneighborhood? Who are the people
(40:31):
that we are not barren oranything like that we're not
serving them, the adults feel apart of things. What are some,
you know, asking some hardquestions? What what are some
things that we are doing,intentionally or
unintentionally, that areputting up barriers that maybe
we need to not do anymore? Andagain, that's, that's a long
process. And it's, it'd bedifficult discussion sometimes.
(40:53):
But again, if we're, if we'reopen to that, I think we've
become more true reflections of,of the church that that God
ordained and God desires. AndI'm excited, I hope. And at
first, we were, who put ittogether. And we wrote this
together in the hopes that itwill move the needle summon and
will again, make us more asChristians as followers of
Christ as churches, betterreflections of God's love and,
(41:19):
and working together. And, youknow, when when all this kind of
went down a few years ago, thatpandemic and all the racial
injustice, and all that stuff isin the middle of us writing. You
know, it, it bothered me, thatpolitical leaders and these
people feeling this tensiondidn't go to the church and say,
(41:40):
Hey, how do you does do it? Howhave you guys worked on because
we weren't ones that wereproviding the answer. We should
have been the mod. I haven'tgotten all that went down, they
should have gone, hey, look inthe church, they know how it's
done. Let's go to them foradvice. But that wasn't what
happened, because we're kind ofbehind the eight ball in that.
So wouldn't it be great if weare the models for a more
(42:01):
inclusive, more just more caringsociety that I think God has
called us to be? You know,people constantly refer to the
church and they Oh, we we needto be like those people in our
politics, in our government inour, you know, in our schools
and all that kind of stuff.
Would that's, that's our hope.
Yes.
Joshua Johnson (42:19):
Yes. Let's, let's help. Let's, let's see it.
Let's make it happen. Dan, acouple quick questions. One, if
you go back to your 21 year oldself, what advice would you
give?
Dan Kreiss (42:29):
Oh, man. I go bungee jumping because I never did. And
now like I'm never did a I did.
I'm on
Joshua Johnson (42:38):
New Zealand was where I went bungee jumping on
the bridge Kawarau bridge whereit started, where the first
bungee
Dan Kreiss (42:47):
is happening. And at the other four of the poor youth
ministry person, I didn't havethem. I was like, man, 100
bucks. That's a lot of money.
But now now I'm like, I'm goingback to like, I don't know if I
could do it now. You know, I'dlose. I might lose some teeth.
You know, they're not as tightas they used to be. So I think,
yeah, take more adventures, bewilling to do more things. But
(43:09):
again, I'm amazed. So me and my21 year old son, I don't know
that he would listen to me.
That's the problem.
Joshua Johnson (43:18):
Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure. It's good. Anything
you've been reading or watchinglately, you could recommend?
Dan Kreiss (43:26):
Yeah, when I was just thinking about that. I've
been reading some stuff on I'mleading a group to Guatemala,
I'm reading some more stuffabout leading leading people
into different cultures andcontexts. I'm trying to think of
the author and I don't haveenough top my head. But there's
some good stuff out there about,again, being intentional about
(43:50):
cross cultural connections andall that good stuff and having
them my desire when I take thisgroup is that they experienced
worship that's completelydifferent, their own and yet
just as a worshipful, you know,on that they have, you know,
they will understand thelanguage, they will understand a
lot of you know, what's goingon. But God is still being
worshiped, and how exciting thatis. If I could think of the
(44:12):
author, I send it to you, but Ican't off the top of their head,
sorry.
Joshua Johnson (44:16):
You know, we I, I run a missions organization.
We have some people on Guatemalaand some incredible things that
are happening, and you're seeingsome of these things that we've
been talking about this, youknow, Justice oriented, multi
inclusive at churches. I mean,the people that we have on the
ground, the church looks a lotdifferent than it does here in
the West, but the Jesus has beenworshipped and glorified and and
(44:40):
people on the margins are beinglifted up, and we're seeing a
lot of incredible fruit there sothat you're gonna have a good
time and in Guatemala. Well,Dan, thank you for this
conversation. It was it wasyeah, it was fantastic. I love
that. We got to talk about theemergent generations that there
are a bunch of non affiliated Dopeople, some nuns, but there is
(45:02):
some hope that they they lovethe world. They love others that
they don't see denominations.
They see authentic faith, andthat is experienced and lived
out and embodied. And that wecan be churches that do that as
well that we can be justiceoriented, multi, inclusive
churches, then we can start towalk in those ways that we're
(45:23):
here. We're a church foreveryone. So thank you for this
conversations. Great.
Dan Kreiss (45:30):
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Joshua Johnson (45:32):
Thank you.
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