April 5, 2024 • 41 mins
In this episode, A.J. Swoboda returns to Shifting Culture to discuss his latest book The Gift of Thorns. We talk desires and longings. Our desires are good – we see desire in Adam even before the fall. But sometimes we have desires of the flesh, but even those desires point to an ultimate longing that we have that can be ordered towards God. This is a great conversation, but we lost a bit of it because of technical issues. So you are going to miss a bit of it in the middle, but you probably won’t even notice that something is missing. So, my suggestion – get A.J.’s book. It’s really fantastic and you won’t regret it. I want to have a small group go through it together. I think it’s so helpful. But before you do all that, join us in this conversation as we figure out how to order our desires, find healing, and forgiveness.
A.J. Swoboda (Ph.D., Birmingham) is an associate professor of Bible and Theology at Bushnell University and lead mentor for the Doctor of Ministry Program on Spiritual Formation and Soul Care at Friends University. He is the author of many books, including The Gift of Thorns (Zondervan), After Doubt (Brazos), and the award-winning Subversive Sabbath (Brazos). He hosts the Slow Theology podcast with Dr. Nijay Gupta. A.J. lives and works on an urban farm with his wife and son in Eugene, Oregon.
A.J.'s Book:
The Gift of Thorns
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
A.J. Swoboda (00:00):
Because the desires I have on Monday are so
(00:02):
different than the desires Ihave on Friday. And I need some
place where my desires are notthe center of my being. I in my
book I call I call the cross theSabbath for desires. And what I
mean by that is that we need aplace to hang our desires so
that they don't control us thatI have a stable identity that
(00:24):
transcends that, listen, I am adifferent person on Mondays and
I am on Fridays, I'd say onMondays, I just want to give
everything up. I'm like, I wantto quit it all. I want to go
live as an Amish person, bymyself reject everything. And
then on Friday, I'm like, I lovemy life, the weekends coming all
is great. I am two differentpeople. And if I don't have a
(00:46):
place to hang my desires, I'mgoing to be I'm going to
traumatize everyone around me.
I'm going to be like todifferent human beings. And when
Jesus says Deny yourself, pickup your cross and follow me. I
get the sense he's saying likeyou don't, you can actually be
liberated from having to makeyour desires the core part of
(01:09):
your identity.
Joshua Johnson (01:25):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost, Joshua Johnson. Go to
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(01:47):
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Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
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them how much you enjoy it andlet them know that they should
(02:07):
be listening as well. If you'renew here, welcome. If you want
to dig deeper find us on socialmedia at shifting culture
podcast, where I post videoclips and quotes and interact
with all of you. Previous guestson the show have included new J
Gupta, Lucy Pepe and Pete Gregg.
You could go back listen tothose episodes, and more. But
(02:28):
today's guest is AJ Swoboda. I'mso thankful that Aj is back on
the podcast. AJ is an associateprofessor of Bible and theology
at Bucknell University and leadmentor for the Doctor of
Ministry program on spiritualformation and soul care at
Friends University. He is theauthor of many books, including
the gift of thorns after doubt,and the award winning subversive
(02:50):
Sabbath. He hosts the slowtheology podcast with ni J.
Gupta. He lives and works on anurban farm with his wife and son
in Eugene, Oregon. AJ and Idiscussed his latest book the
gift of thorns in thisconversation, we talked desires
and longings, that our desiresare good. We see desire and Adam
even before the fall, butsometimes we have desires of the
(03:12):
flesh. But even those desirespoint to an ultimate longing
that we have, that can beordered towards Scott, this is a
great conversation. But we losta bit of it because of some
technical issues. So you'regonna miss a little bit of it in
the middle. But I don't evenknow if you're going to notice
that something is missing. So mysuggestion is get a Jays book.
(03:35):
It's really fantastic and youwon't regret it. I want to have
a small group to go through ittogether. I think it's going to
be so helpful. So before you doall of that, join us in this
conversation as we figure outhow to order our desires, find
healing and forgiveness. Here'smy conversation with AJ Swoboda
(03:58):
AJ Welcome to shifting culturalreally excited to have you on
thanks for joining me Joshua
A.J. Swoboda (04:04):
at any chance I get on a Friday morning to drink
coffee with with with somebodyelse and have a conversation is
a good day. It's great to seeyou.
Joshua Johnson (04:15):
Good. I'm glad it's good. I have some coffee
right here ready to go. Andwe're gonna have a good
conversation of your new book agift of thorns. How the world
can thorns be gifts I know Paulas his thorn in the side but
really are thorns a gift? I knowin Genesis it did say that the
(04:35):
words are for us. So how arethorns a gift?
A.J. Swoboda (04:39):
Okay, so here's my publisher would be mad at me if
I gave the whole kit andcaboodle so I'm not I'm not
gonna give everything away. Butwhat I will What I will say is
that even in the two referencesthat you just brought up this
this image of thorns. Even Paulwhen he describes his thorn in
the side which which by Hundredsand theologians together have no
(05:01):
clue what the thorns are. Paulnever clarifies the never irons
out. Some people think it was asexual struggle. Some people
think it was a person who wasbugging him. Some people think
it was one of my friendsactually thinks that it was that
he was not one of the original12 disciples and witches in the
midst of Second Corinthianswhere he's arguing for His
Apostle apostleship. We don'tknow what it is. But we know for
(05:24):
sure, he says that when he praysto Jesus to take it away, Jesus
doesn't and does it does nottake it away, so as to keep him
from becoming conceited. So evenPaul, when he's describing that
his own thorn in his side, eye,he does it in such a way where
he is seeing that thorn as, asshaping him, and making him who
(05:46):
he is. So basically, the bigidea in the book is God has,
because of His love, He has putus in our post rebellion state,
he has put us in a world wherewe don't get everything we want.
And that that in the end is agift. Because if we got
everything that we want in ourrebellious state, things would
be very bad. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (06:07):
there'll be chaos. There'll be chaos
everywhere. Yeah. And we havepockets of society around the
world where people try and geteverything that they want. And
we have seen some disastrouseffects. But before we get to
some of that, I'd love to gointo and to you, and what what
is your relationship withdesire? And why did you say I
(06:33):
need to spend years working ontheology of desire and really
digging deep into it? Yep.
A.J. Swoboda (06:41):
A story of actually it was. It's one of the
weirdest things in the worlddevoted. So I'm going to tell
you a story and then go and thenit'll make sense. A weird story.
I have always I'm 42. I'm now inmy midlife.
Joshua Johnson (06:54):
Welcome, welcome. Crisis. It's fine.
A.J. Swoboda (06:58):
Yeah, I've been I've been telling everybody that
I've been doing my swan diveinto my midlife crisis, I've
arrived, I'm there. I'm 42. AndI have never, I hate my
birthday. I have always hated mybirthday. It has been an
actually, Joshua, I often getreally depressed on my birthday.
(07:20):
And there have actually been acouple of birthdays that I have.
I have struggled with suicidalideation. I mean, it's very,
very dark. And there's, there'sa real historic reason why
that's the case. When I, when Iwas a kid, I had, I think I
remember one birthday party thatI had for me as a kid. And I've
(07:40):
never wanted one since. And I'vecome to learn that the reason I
don't like my birthday is I'm,I'm terrified to find out if
nobody comes. And what that isgoing to mean for me is just
realizing I'm not who you know,maybe I'm loved, I'm not loved.
And I've been, here's, here'swhere it comes from. When I am
asked what I want for mybirthday, I never know what to
(08:01):
say. And I that little, likethat little insight for me is a
very, it's a very tellinginsight, because I don't
actually know my desires. And Ishould say, like, like I, my
desires are so like, all overthe place. In fact, at the very
(08:22):
beginning of the book, I tellthe story of sitting in a
faculty meeting for one hour,and just writing down all of my
desires for one hour. And whatwas what what I learned about
myself in one hour is that Iwant a deeper relationship with
Jesus, I want more time withGod, I want a better
relationship with my son, I wantmore pizza, I want sex. I want
this faculty meeting to end Iwant I mean, my desires are so
(08:45):
weird that it is like the realmof chaos. And I wrote this book
because I don't think I'm alone.
I think we all have such complexemotions. St. Augustine calls it
the gymnasium of desire. We'reall a gymnasium of desire. And
if we don't have a grasp onthose desires, we're going to do
(09:06):
a lot of harm to a lot of peopleand to ourselves. And so this
this book is really it's anexploration in how we can
understand our wants, and whatGod wants for our wants.
Joshua Johnson (09:22):
If we don't understand our wants, I think we
start to desire, desire, westart to figure out it's like,
Hey, I just want that feeling ofdesire. Then how have you
started to figure out what do Iwant? What do I desire?
A.J. Swoboda (09:42):
By the way, just this it always killed as a
writer. This is one of thehardest things is after a book
is published, realizing thatthere was something you didn't
include in your book that youwished you had. There is this
little tiny section in one ofDallas Willards least read The
books in which he wrote anarticle called, of Nietzsche
(10:05):
versus Jesus Christ, Nietzscheversus Jesus Christ, in which he
talks about how, when you livein an environment where you can
get everything you want, whereall the options are open, it
leads to the death of desire. Sowhen you when you don't have
boundaries for your desire, yourdesire begins to die. And he
(10:25):
says, because of that, we nowlive in a world where everything
becomes about awakening desire,because we don't have it. And he
calls it, he calls it the Viagrasociety. We are a society that
is trying to awaken desire,because we don't have it because
all of our options are open. Ithink that's one of the
(10:47):
conundrums of our post, postChristian Post postmodern moment
is that because everything'savailable to us now, our desire
is overwhelmed. How have I cometo understand my desire? Number
one, in the last couple ofyears, Joshua, I have done more
work to understand my family oforigin and my, my childhood,
(11:11):
than I have done in my entirelife. And what I've come to find
is that there was there weredeep woundings of desire that
took place to me as a kid, thatreally did affect me. In fact,
one of the most important thingsI have ever done in my life to
December's ago was I paid mytherapist for four days, to go
away and under just get into my,my, my early childhood sexual
(11:35):
trauma. And those experiences,understanding those experiences,
and how they have affected mehave depth changed who I am. So
I would say how do I understandit? I think being a Christian
should mean that we knowourselves really well. And that
(11:55):
we get into our own story. Andwe invite people into that story
to help us be curious, becauseGod is there's one theologian
called God is the divinearchaeologist, who wants us to
draw out from the dust of ourlives, those treasures that he
wants us to see.
Joshua Johnson (12:11):
Yeah, I know that God has created this desire
in us. And so they're not alwaysbad. Sometimes we think those
you know, our desire is, is bad.
We want to push it aside. Yeah.
And so we, we hide them, right?
We hide our desires, we hide ourwhat we think is our perversions
or our lustful thoughts orsomething where we are not
(12:32):
wanting other people to seethat. And so if we don't get
into it, those things will startto fester and grow in us. But
God gave desires. So even yourlonging. Why you don't like
birthdays is hey, I, yourlonging is to know to be loved,
(12:52):
to be known. Yes. And not to bealone. Yes. And that was Adams
desire. And, you know, beforethe fall, right, in the settler
society, how does? How does thatunderstanding help us?
A.J. Swoboda (13:11):
There's a thinker by the name of Jay Stringer, who
wrote a book called unwanted.
This book is one of the mostimportant books I think, written
in the last 10 years around thetopic of sexual desire. And he
has this kind of theory, and Ithink he's, I think he's
absolutely right. I've reallysort of bought into this. And
that is that when you when youwalk with somebody who has a
(13:34):
pornography addiction, and andhas a desire for something that
is that is harmful tothemselves, and is sinful
fleshly desire, when you walkalongside somebody who who
experiences that desire. Yes,the desire for pornography is is
not good, and God doesn't wantthat. But stringer argues that
(13:57):
underneath every single evildesire is a deeply wounded godly
desire. And he has this line inthe intro to his book where he
says, he says, What is whatappears to be a a longing for
sin, or a lustful desire is atthe end of the day, a deep
(14:22):
desire to be loved. And, andwhat I'm really compelled by
that because when you look atGenesis one and two, humans were
made with only good desires. Imean, their desires were, desire
is good, God main desire. Desireis not evil. You know, desire
becomes perverted after Genesisthree. And that's actually how I
(14:45):
define the flesh. The flesh aregood desires, disconnected from
God. So the desire remains, butit becomes hitched to things
that are not of God. Sounderneath most of our evil
desires, Joshua, underneath mostof our evil desires are actually
desires for the good, that arejust perverted and twisted.
(15:08):
That's why this book, I think,is, is is, is so critical,
Joshua Johnson (15:15):
then how can we orient our desires towards the
good? What does that discernmentlook like for us? How do we know
when maybe some of the thesedesires or our gray areas? We
don't know if it's black andwhite? And how do we order it
towards the good,
A.J. Swoboda (15:35):
there's, there's a power, there's a real power in
reconnecting and reunderstanding our family of
origin or childhood. And when Igo back to that story of, of
getting away with my therapistfor three days, for four days,
and getting into my story, whatI learned from that experience
is afterwards, that when Jesussays, you know, Let the children
(15:59):
come to Me, He does mean, youknow, let the physical, let the
actual children come to Me, Iknow, that's what he means. But
it also I think, for many of usas adults, I think what that
means is, don't let let yourchildhood Let your inner child
but let that kid of yours, cometo Jesus. And, and that what
Jesus has the power to do, is hecan heal much of many of our
(16:22):
childhood wounds retroactively.
And part below that requiresthat we're willing to go back
and listen. But many of ourdesires are connected to those
childhood stories. And so Soreconnecting with our childhood
family of origin stuff, is avery healing experience.
Joshua Johnson (16:43):
As it is interesting, you know, when I've
gone back at times back into mychildhood, one of the things
that that set me on a trajectorywas the moment my sister came
home from the hospital when Iwas three years old. And she as
a colicky baby, had all theattention in the house. And I
felt like I was alone, right.
And it was strange, like thatset me on a path of trajectory
(17:05):
where my voice was, was mutedand silent. I believed. And so I
became quieter and morereserved. And I had to go back.
And so even little things likethat, where none of that was,
was a sin war. None of that waswas something that I did
(17:27):
personally that I needed to say,I'm confessing those things in
your childhood, I needed to say,Jesus, where were you in that
situation? Where will? And thenwhat can I know from that scene?
And how can I live differentlytoday with you? And how can you
hear me? So what I know that inJames that says, you know,
(17:50):
confess your sins, one toanother, and you'll be healed?
Right? Yeah. You and when you'reconfessing your sins, one to
another? But what about thosetrauma things, the things that
have been done to us, like sendthat has been done to us, or
even inadvertent things thathave done to us? How do we get
healing, and those
A.J. Swoboda (18:09):
this is a perfect moment for me to name my own. My
own inadequacies, I am not atrained therapist, nor am I a
trauma informed, I'm not I'm nota trauma informed theologian.
And so I need to defer, asalways in people's lives to
being in the right spaces to askthose on a personal level,
because that won't be I want tobe careful to not speak in a
(18:31):
general way. But but but I wouldsay as someone with a unique
experience in the church and asa theologian, we we can easily
create false, a false form ofspirituality that basically says
(18:52):
something like this. In Jesus,the blood of Christ washes away
all of that pain. And so justmove on. And does Jesus heal?
Does Jesus heal and bring bringus forgiveness for our sin 100%.
But part of the healing processmust go further than the
(19:18):
forgiveness of sins, andactually to distinguish the two.
And first John one, John says,confess your sins to God, and
you'll be forgiven. James says,confess your sins to each other
for healing. And what strikes meis there's a difference between
forgiveness and healing. Andmany Christians, many Christians
(19:45):
are forgiven but unhealed. Andbut but I would also say many of
my secular friends who do a lotof work of naming their own
brokenness in a counselingoffice US experience healing,
but haven't tapped intoforgiveness yet. We need
(20:07):
forgiveness and healing. And thework of healing is a much larger
story than just praying thesinners prayer. So I think I'm
gonna defer here to people'spastors, shepherds, and, and
therapists, and say, in theintricacies of your stories, get
(20:28):
in those rooms to talk aboutthat. But But theologically,
we've, we must reject anunderstanding of healing, that
simply says, I've prayed aprayer, the work is done. No,
often the prayer is thebeginning of
Joshua Johnson (20:45):
the work. So you know, a lot of people come to
you and say, I'm tempted in thisplace or another, this is my
desire that I'm going to have.
Jesus himself was tempted inevery way, as a human, and was
able to, to live within thelimits of what is God given to
us. And, you know, the serpentcame to you to Adam and Eve, and
(21:08):
they decided to eat of the fruitthat God said, You shouldn't eat
of ants that was catastrophicfor humanity, up until now. But
Jesus himself was tempted by bySatan, and he was able to
withstand that temptation, andnot given to you. Even, you
know, taking over all of thekingdoms of the worlds. He, he
(21:33):
didn't give into that. And eventhe things that I, I think,
would not be sinful of like aturning this this rock into
bread, I don't think that wouldbe sinful. But it was a limit
that he was given at thatmoment. How can we learn from
Jesus and his temptations andhow he didn't give in to you
(21:56):
with a into that, for us movingforward?
A.J. Swoboda (22:01):
Yeah, I mean, there's so much about the
temptation story of Jesus thatwe could talk about. And by the
way, that the way that Matthewis the way Matthew records,
Jesus being tempted in thedesert, it's it's not a mistake,
that, you know, the firsttemptation Jesus faces, is turn
(22:22):
the rock into bread. It it's nota mistake, that the first
temptation Jesus faces is aroundfood. And the temptation that
the man and the woman expectswas around food as well, that
the enemy's, you know, tacticsare kind of on full display here
is that he often gives us ourdeepest temptations, in a way
that is aligned with our deepestneeds, you know, and so, but but
(22:46):
but actually, you know, the moreand more I read the temptation
story of Jesus in the desert, inMatthew's Gospel, in particular,
is is actually walk away fromthat story, realizing this is
not a a story about what we'resupposed to do. We read I think
we read the the Matthew, that weread, The Temptations are in
(23:06):
Think like, Okay, if we followhow Jesus does this, we can
withstand our own temptationthat becomes a paradigm for how
we can, you know, withstand ourown condition, there's certainly
lessons we can learn from it,right? Jesus stands on what has
been written, and he quotes itis written multiple times, he
quotes, relatively obscure OldTestament texts like
Deuteronomy, and you know, thathe has in his back pocket that
(23:29):
he knows. But but the more andmore I read that I'm actually
not convinced that this is a setof stories about how we can face
our own temptations, it'sactually the opposite. It's
about how humans cannot facetheir own temptations and need
somebody else who can. That itbecomes in essence, it becomes
(23:50):
the story about what humanscould never do and can't do, and
only only Jesus can do. So. Ithink when it's reframed that
way, it becomes less about howwe face our temptations. And it
becomes more about how we standbehind Jesus, who faced the
temptations that we ourselvescannot write, though, that we
stand behind his his capacity towithstand the doubles. But But
(24:14):
even that, I mean, still still,Jesus is the sinless Son of God,
you've never since never since,and yet experiences temptation.
And that even that in of itselfis so redeeming for me, because
I am so quick to just shamemyself and beat myself up for
facing temptations, as thoughtemptations were a sin and tempt
(24:37):
if Jesus is sinless andexperienced temptations, real
human temptation. And if you'regonna say they weren't real
human temptations, then you aredenying the humanity of Jesus,
and that we have a word forthat. That's called heresy. So,
if Jesus really facedtemptations, then it is not a
(24:58):
sin, to experience It's unwanteddesires, it is not a sin to
experience, deep temptations. Itis indeed a sin to follow them
and do them. But to experiencethem all in of themselves, is to
deny Jesus's own experience. Youcan walk faithfully with God, in
(25:24):
an experienced temptation andnot give it its power. That's a
liberating concept. Because,Joshua, I know so many
Christians that don't beatthemselves up because of sin,
they beat themselves up becausethey want sin. That's called the
flesh. And, and you've got it,and it's not going to go away
until your resurrection. And,and you don't get to choose your
(25:47):
flesh, the flesh is. So that maybe a liberating word for just
one person, stop beatingyourself up for having unwanted
desires, or temptation. GoodLord, Jesus experienced it. You
may as well be kind to yourself.
Joshua Johnson (26:05):
Yes, ads, man, I'd love to be kind to myself,
that'd be great. Also helps merely on God more than if I
didn't have those, I actuallylean into him more and more and
more, because I have thesethorns. I have these
(26:26):
temptations. I have this sinfuldesire, I need Jesus over and
over and over again. And so ithelps me not to become
complacent and my faith, myrelationship with Him, and to
say I need you.
A.J. Swoboda (26:42):
You started just by asking me how thorns are a
gift. Yeah. And you're you'reanswering the question that you
provoked at the beginning ofthis conversation, those thorns
in our side. Those things thatwe we bear in our lives that we
don't want that we wish were notthere, when they are held, well
make us dependent on God, theyactually end up making us deeper
(27:07):
people. We spend our livestrying to get rid of the thorns,
rather than seeing the thorns asGod's way of teaching us to be
dependent people. Yeah.
Joshua Johnson (27:17):
This morning, I started to cry while reading
your book, in the section whereyou talked about your course of
teaching Bible, gender, andsexuality. Is that I mean, that
was a hard thing for you to beable to enter into and do is
difficult. And but it there wassome beautiful things that
(27:39):
happened in that can you take usinto into that course? How?
Because I think that canactually be a little bit healing
for us. Thinking about today,our culture, our differences are
polarization. And what does itlook like to be open and honest
with one another?
A.J. Swoboda (27:59):
Yeah, there's so many dynamics about I'm
reteaching. That class, I'mteaching it in the fall again.
And I'm, I'm so excited. It hasbecome my favorite class, Bible,
sexuality and gender. Yeah, I'mI'm so so I'm a I'm a very, I
don't like these the terms are,can be alienating. I apologize.
But I'm what you would call anold school conservative, you
(28:23):
know, Guy on sexuality. Andit's, you know, historically
Christian perspective, whateverword you want to call it. And I
teach at a, you know, a big yourChristian University, and in
which we have a very diverse setof students. And I decided a
couple of years ago, I needed toteach a class on this. And I'm
tired of running away from thetopic, and I'm tired for my
(28:44):
students being afraid to talkabout it. So I taught a class
and I went in, very excited, andthen the first class happened,
and I thought, I'm gonna lose myjob. I'm going to get canceled
or something bad's gonna happen.
And what happened over the next16 weeks, have a group of
students who came together andwith open hearts and open minds,
(29:06):
read the Bible, and didn't soputting their agendas aside, I
mean, I had students in thatclass, who work gotten
conservative students, I hadprogressive students, I had
straight kids, I had a couple ofgay kids in that class. And I
saw the kingdom of God come inthat class. And it and it came.
Because I saw a group of peopleput aside everything that they
(29:31):
brought to the conversation,their anger, their frustration,
their you know all of it, andjust decided to listen to the
Bible. And what I found was whenwe actually choose to allow the
Bible to be our guiding star,when it becomes our when it
becomes the thing that speaks tous, most truthfully and
(29:57):
prophetically. It is healing foreverybody. It's hard. And it
didn't, it was not an easyclass. But I had students in
that class, who privately Imean, after the class students
who were like, I have never, asa Christian, been in an
environment where we can talkabout this stuff. And the very
fact that we were able to talkabout it was healing for
(30:21):
students. Here's what I found.
The church needs to stop beingterrified to talk about this. In
our book, the Bible is sounbelievably healing, but we're
embarrassed of it. And we, andwe talk about it the way Abraham
talked about Sarah, She's not mywife, she's my sister. And we're
(30:44):
embarrassed. And we need to stopbeing embarrassed of God's word
to us in His healing, and itdeserves to be heard. And, yeah,
it may get you cancelled, andyou may lose your job. But at
the end of the day, what's mostimportant, I'd rather people be
healed, and I lose my job thananything else.
Joshua Johnson (31:00):
Amen. Amen. Is there a way that we could take
that, that same concept, thatsame thing outside of the
classroom or outside of achurch, where people from
diverse backgrounds,perspectives can be together and
have some sort of an experiencelike that? So they could
actually hear from one another,listen to one another and see
(31:23):
one another?
A.J. Swoboda (31:23):
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm sure that there is I
haven't figured it out. But whatI can say is that there are
people who are modeling that andmodeling it with such profound
grace and truthfulness. I think,for example, my friend Preston
sprinkle, whose work in theologyand the raw and whatnot. I mean,
he is just modeling biblicalfaithfulness and profound
(31:44):
compassion. At the same time, Ithink of my friend, Pastor Evan
Wickham, who pastors Park HillChurch in San Diego, I'm
drinking from his coffee cupright now. He is modeling in the
church, what a pastor can do, inour moment in time to lead
people into these things. Thereare models that are rising to
the surface. And I would love tobe part of that on the
(32:08):
theological side. But I haven'tfigured it out yet. I'm just
starting with doing a class. AndI think eventually down the
road, I want to write a bookabout that class, just a whole
book about what I learned fromthis class, how to talk about
these things in a really goodway. But I need to teach it more
than one time before I can reachup.
Joshua Johnson (32:27):
Yeah, well, yeah, more practice more
practice. And I think that isgood. I, man, it's such, I
think, a stellar example of whatwe need to be, and to focus on
the Bible moving forward, thathelps us order things and order
our desires correctly, to bemore aligned with Jesus. And,
(32:51):
you know, Jesus himself. This isthe thing that he you know, he
says, to all of us, is that weget to deny ourselves, take up
our cross and follow him. It'show, yay, I want to deny.
(33:13):
Why is that healing to denyourselves? Yeah,
A.J. Swoboda (33:17):
yeah, here's why.
Because the desires I have onMonday are so different than the
desires I have on Friday. And Ineed some place where my desires
are not the center of my being.
I in my book, I call I call thecross the Sabbath for desires.
And what I mean by that is thatwe need a place to hang our
(33:38):
desires so that they don'tcontrol us that I have a stable
identity that transcends that,listen, I am a different person
on Mondays and I am on Fridays,I'd say on Mondays, I just want
to give everything up. I'm like,I want to quit it all. I want to
go live as an Amish person, bymyself, reject everything. And
then on Friday, I'm like, I lovemy life, the weekends coming all
(34:00):
is great. I am two differentpeople. And if I don't have a
place to hang my desires, I'mgoing to be I'm going to
traumatize everyone around me.
I'm going to be like twodifferent human beings. And when
Jesus says Deny yourself, pickup your cross and follow me. I
get the sense he's saying like,you don't, you can actually be
(34:23):
liberated from having to makeyour desires the core part of
your identity. You don't have tofollow your desires. That is so
liberating. Because we live in amoment in time, where it's like
the secular sainthood of ourmoment is you have to follow
your desires. And if you dothat, that is living hell.
(34:44):
That's how on earth I can't livethat way. If I if I followed the
mantra you do you, everybody inmy life would be traumatized. My
son would Pay the heaviest pricefor that Bologna, trashy way of
thinking. Thank God, I'm freedfrom that. I don't have to do
(35:07):
that. I have the Holy Spirit.
And I have I have I get to havea stable identity that
transcends the Monday, AJ fromthe Friday, AJ.
Joshua Johnson (35:17):
And then that's so good. What would you say to
your readers? What? What wouldyou hope for them to move
forward after reading your book?
A.J. Swoboda (35:29):
There's this weird thing that happens with writers
where when you get together withanother writer, it's so fun.
It's so awesome. Because you getto like, be like, Oh, you get
me. You understand what it'slike to put a book out, you
understand, like, the anxiety inthe sphere, it really means a
lot to be understood bysomebody. And I want I want
(35:51):
people to read this book, andsay the phrase, this book put
language to what I experiencedevery day of my life, so that
you know, you are not alone.
And, and to have that kind offellowship, I may never meet all
my readers, but I want my readerto feel like whoever wrote this
(36:15):
book gets me, I'm not alone.
Joshua Johnson (36:21):
And God is with me, as beautiful. That's really
beautiful. So then how canpeople go out and get your book
and connect with you?
A.J. Swoboda (36:31):
Yeah, I you know, I increasingly hate social
media. But if somebody wantedto, and I have a website, AJ
swoboda.com, you can buy my bookanywhere books are sold. Another
great way is I do a Thursdaysubstack article called low
level theologian, that calledthe low level theologian, which
is about just a weeklydevotional, I have a podcast
(36:54):
called Slow theology that youcan listen to, but at the end of
the day, to get the book, youcan get it anywhere books are
sold, try to support your localbookstore if you can.
Joshua Johnson (37:04):
Yeah, that's right. That's good. Well, AJ, I
love your book, like it's, itspoke to me deeply, to be able
to figure out how do I order mydesires? Well, to know that
desires are actually good,they're from God, and that my
sinful desires are the backdropof a undergirding longing that I
(37:29):
actually have. Yeah, that isgood. And for God and with God.
And so thank you for walking usthrough this. I know it was, it
was not an easy book, to write.
And it was a lot of a lot ofwork for you. And I think this
is really, it's been helpful forme, and I pray that it's really
helpful for a lot of people. Imean, there's a couple of
(37:52):
desires that I have, afterreading this book, one, I have a
desire to get a groups of peopleto read this together, to be
able to discuss their desires,and help us order them properly
as a actual formation towardsJesus, like, what does that look
like? And to I have a desire tospend time with you, because I
(38:14):
loved getting to know youthrough these pages and these
words, and that I would love tobe at a birthday celebration
with you.
A.J. Swoboda (38:28):
It would require a drawing. But Manchester from you
back, Joshua. Yeah, I think thisis actually the second time I've
been with you. I think weactually did a podcast earlier.
And the podcast worlds aninteresting world. Many of the
people that I get interviewed bydon't read my books. And the
fact that you just said that youcried, as you read, it actually
says you read the thing. Thankyou for taking seriously your
(38:50):
task and doing the work that youdo, and actually caring enough
to actually engage the stuffthat you're talking about. It
means the world to me as areader, your your listeners are
served very well by you.
Joshua Johnson (39:00):
Thank you. Thank you. As a closing, can you just
recommend one thing for us thathas been helping you right now
to something has been helpingyou? Yep.
A.J. Swoboda (39:14):
Listening to my son. My son is a prophet to my
life, and he is the best gaugein terms of how I'm doing health
wise. And he tells me when I'mnot around enough, he says, Dad,
you are angry, but you're notsaying it. My son was a prophet.
And when Jesus said, Let thechildren come to Me, he meant
(39:35):
it. Let the children come to youtheir profits, listen to kids.
Joshua Johnson (39:40):
Amen. So God, thank you, AJ, I really enjoyed
this conversation. And it's justa pleasure to talk to you. Thank
you,
A.J. Swoboda (39:47):
Joshua. Thank you
Because the desires I have on Monday are so
(00:02):
different than the desires Ihave on Friday. And I need some
place where my desires are notthe center of my being. I in my
book I call I call the cross theSabbath for desires. And what I
mean by that is that we need aplace to hang our desires so
that they don't control us thatI have a stable identity that
(00:24):
transcends that, listen, I am adifferent person on Mondays and
I am on Fridays, I'd say onMondays, I just want to give
everything up. I'm like, I wantto quit it all. I want to go
live as an Amish person, bymyself reject everything. And
then on Friday, I'm like, I lovemy life, the weekends coming all
is great. I am two differentpeople. And if I don't have a
(00:46):
place to hang my desires, I'mgoing to be I'm going to
traumatize everyone around me.
I'm going to be like todifferent human beings. And when
Jesus says Deny yourself, pickup your cross and follow me. I
get the sense he's saying likeyou don't, you can actually be
liberated from having to makeyour desires the core part of
(01:09):
your identity.
Joshua Johnson (01:25):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost, Joshua Johnson. Go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
forget to hit the Follow buttonon your favorite podcast app to
be notified when new episodescome out each week. And go leave
(01:47):
a rating and review. It's easy.
It only takes a second and ithelps us find new listeners to
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Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
this podcast with your friends,your family, your network, tell
them how much you enjoy it andlet them know that they should
(02:07):
be listening as well. If you'renew here, welcome. If you want
to dig deeper find us on socialmedia at shifting culture
podcast, where I post videoclips and quotes and interact
with all of you. Previous guestson the show have included new J
Gupta, Lucy Pepe and Pete Gregg.
You could go back listen tothose episodes, and more. But
(02:28):
today's guest is AJ Swoboda. I'mso thankful that Aj is back on
the podcast. AJ is an associateprofessor of Bible and theology
at Bucknell University and leadmentor for the Doctor of
Ministry program on spiritualformation and soul care at
Friends University. He is theauthor of many books, including
the gift of thorns after doubt,and the award winning subversive
(02:50):
Sabbath. He hosts the slowtheology podcast with ni J.
Gupta. He lives and works on anurban farm with his wife and son
in Eugene, Oregon. AJ and Idiscussed his latest book the
gift of thorns in thisconversation, we talked desires
and longings, that our desiresare good. We see desire and Adam
even before the fall, butsometimes we have desires of the
(03:12):
flesh. But even those desirespoint to an ultimate longing
that we have, that can beordered towards Scott, this is a
great conversation. But we losta bit of it because of some
technical issues. So you'regonna miss a little bit of it in
the middle. But I don't evenknow if you're going to notice
that something is missing. So mysuggestion is get a Jays book.
(03:35):
It's really fantastic and youwon't regret it. I want to have
a small group to go through ittogether. I think it's going to
be so helpful. So before you doall of that, join us in this
conversation as we figure outhow to order our desires, find
healing and forgiveness. Here'smy conversation with AJ Swoboda
(03:58):
AJ Welcome to shifting culturalreally excited to have you on
thanks for joining me Joshua
A.J. Swoboda (04:04):
at any chance I get on a Friday morning to drink
coffee with with with somebodyelse and have a conversation is
a good day. It's great to seeyou.
Joshua Johnson (04:15):
Good. I'm glad it's good. I have some coffee
right here ready to go. Andwe're gonna have a good
conversation of your new book agift of thorns. How the world
can thorns be gifts I know Paulas his thorn in the side but
really are thorns a gift? I knowin Genesis it did say that the
(04:35):
words are for us. So how arethorns a gift?
A.J. Swoboda (04:39):
Okay, so here's my publisher would be mad at me if
I gave the whole kit andcaboodle so I'm not I'm not
gonna give everything away. Butwhat I will What I will say is
that even in the two referencesthat you just brought up this
this image of thorns. Even Paulwhen he describes his thorn in
the side which which by Hundredsand theologians together have no
(05:01):
clue what the thorns are. Paulnever clarifies the never irons
out. Some people think it was asexual struggle. Some people
think it was a person who wasbugging him. Some people think
it was one of my friendsactually thinks that it was that
he was not one of the original12 disciples and witches in the
midst of Second Corinthianswhere he's arguing for His
Apostle apostleship. We don'tknow what it is. But we know for
(05:24):
sure, he says that when he praysto Jesus to take it away, Jesus
doesn't and does it does nottake it away, so as to keep him
from becoming conceited. So evenPaul, when he's describing that
his own thorn in his side, eye,he does it in such a way where
he is seeing that thorn as, asshaping him, and making him who
(05:46):
he is. So basically, the bigidea in the book is God has,
because of His love, He has putus in our post rebellion state,
he has put us in a world wherewe don't get everything we want.
And that that in the end is agift. Because if we got
everything that we want in ourrebellious state, things would
be very bad. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (06:07):
there'll be chaos. There'll be chaos
everywhere. Yeah. And we havepockets of society around the
world where people try and geteverything that they want. And
we have seen some disastrouseffects. But before we get to
some of that, I'd love to gointo and to you, and what what
is your relationship withdesire? And why did you say I
(06:33):
need to spend years working ontheology of desire and really
digging deep into it? Yep.
A.J. Swoboda (06:41):
A story of actually it was. It's one of the
weirdest things in the worlddevoted. So I'm going to tell
you a story and then go and thenit'll make sense. A weird story.
I have always I'm 42. I'm now inmy midlife.
Joshua Johnson (06:54):
Welcome, welcome. Crisis. It's fine.
A.J. Swoboda (06:58):
Yeah, I've been I've been telling everybody that
I've been doing my swan diveinto my midlife crisis, I've
arrived, I'm there. I'm 42. AndI have never, I hate my
birthday. I have always hated mybirthday. It has been an
actually, Joshua, I often getreally depressed on my birthday.
(07:20):
And there have actually been acouple of birthdays that I have.
I have struggled with suicidalideation. I mean, it's very,
very dark. And there's, there'sa real historic reason why
that's the case. When I, when Iwas a kid, I had, I think I
remember one birthday party thatI had for me as a kid. And I've
(07:40):
never wanted one since. And I'vecome to learn that the reason I
don't like my birthday is I'm,I'm terrified to find out if
nobody comes. And what that isgoing to mean for me is just
realizing I'm not who you know,maybe I'm loved, I'm not loved.
And I've been, here's, here'swhere it comes from. When I am
asked what I want for mybirthday, I never know what to
(08:01):
say. And I that little, likethat little insight for me is a
very, it's a very tellinginsight, because I don't
actually know my desires. And Ishould say, like, like I, my
desires are so like, all overthe place. In fact, at the very
(08:22):
beginning of the book, I tellthe story of sitting in a
faculty meeting for one hour,and just writing down all of my
desires for one hour. And whatwas what what I learned about
myself in one hour is that Iwant a deeper relationship with
Jesus, I want more time withGod, I want a better
relationship with my son, I wantmore pizza, I want sex. I want
this faculty meeting to end Iwant I mean, my desires are so
(08:45):
weird that it is like the realmof chaos. And I wrote this book
because I don't think I'm alone.
I think we all have such complexemotions. St. Augustine calls it
the gymnasium of desire. We'reall a gymnasium of desire. And
if we don't have a grasp onthose desires, we're going to do
(09:06):
a lot of harm to a lot of peopleand to ourselves. And so this
this book is really it's anexploration in how we can
understand our wants, and whatGod wants for our wants.
Joshua Johnson (09:22):
If we don't understand our wants, I think we
start to desire, desire, westart to figure out it's like,
Hey, I just want that feeling ofdesire. Then how have you
started to figure out what do Iwant? What do I desire?
A.J. Swoboda (09:42):
By the way, just this it always killed as a
writer. This is one of thehardest things is after a book
is published, realizing thatthere was something you didn't
include in your book that youwished you had. There is this
little tiny section in one ofDallas Willards least read The
books in which he wrote anarticle called, of Nietzsche
(10:05):
versus Jesus Christ, Nietzscheversus Jesus Christ, in which he
talks about how, when you livein an environment where you can
get everything you want, whereall the options are open, it
leads to the death of desire. Sowhen you when you don't have
boundaries for your desire, yourdesire begins to die. And he
(10:25):
says, because of that, we nowlive in a world where everything
becomes about awakening desire,because we don't have it. And he
calls it, he calls it the Viagrasociety. We are a society that
is trying to awaken desire,because we don't have it because
all of our options are open. Ithink that's one of the
(10:47):
conundrums of our post, postChristian Post postmodern moment
is that because everything'savailable to us now, our desire
is overwhelmed. How have I cometo understand my desire? Number
one, in the last couple ofyears, Joshua, I have done more
work to understand my family oforigin and my, my childhood,
(11:11):
than I have done in my entirelife. And what I've come to find
is that there was there weredeep woundings of desire that
took place to me as a kid, thatreally did affect me. In fact,
one of the most important thingsI have ever done in my life to
December's ago was I paid mytherapist for four days, to go
away and under just get into my,my, my early childhood sexual
(11:35):
trauma. And those experiences,understanding those experiences,
and how they have affected mehave depth changed who I am. So
I would say how do I understandit? I think being a Christian
should mean that we knowourselves really well. And that
(11:55):
we get into our own story. Andwe invite people into that story
to help us be curious, becauseGod is there's one theologian
called God is the divinearchaeologist, who wants us to
draw out from the dust of ourlives, those treasures that he
wants us to see.
Joshua Johnson (12:11):
Yeah, I know that God has created this desire
in us. And so they're not alwaysbad. Sometimes we think those
you know, our desire is, is bad.
We want to push it aside. Yeah.
And so we, we hide them, right?
We hide our desires, we hide ourwhat we think is our perversions
or our lustful thoughts orsomething where we are not
(12:32):
wanting other people to seethat. And so if we don't get
into it, those things will startto fester and grow in us. But
God gave desires. So even yourlonging. Why you don't like
birthdays is hey, I, yourlonging is to know to be loved,
(12:52):
to be known. Yes. And not to bealone. Yes. And that was Adams
desire. And, you know, beforethe fall, right, in the settler
society, how does? How does thatunderstanding help us?
A.J. Swoboda (13:11):
There's a thinker by the name of Jay Stringer, who
wrote a book called unwanted.
This book is one of the mostimportant books I think, written
in the last 10 years around thetopic of sexual desire. And he
has this kind of theory, and Ithink he's, I think he's
absolutely right. I've reallysort of bought into this. And
that is that when you when youwalk with somebody who has a
(13:34):
pornography addiction, and andhas a desire for something that
is that is harmful tothemselves, and is sinful
fleshly desire, when you walkalongside somebody who who
experiences that desire. Yes,the desire for pornography is is
not good, and God doesn't wantthat. But stringer argues that
(13:57):
underneath every single evildesire is a deeply wounded godly
desire. And he has this line inthe intro to his book where he
says, he says, What is whatappears to be a a longing for
sin, or a lustful desire is atthe end of the day, a deep
(14:22):
desire to be loved. And, andwhat I'm really compelled by
that because when you look atGenesis one and two, humans were
made with only good desires. Imean, their desires were, desire
is good, God main desire. Desireis not evil. You know, desire
becomes perverted after Genesisthree. And that's actually how I
(14:45):
define the flesh. The flesh aregood desires, disconnected from
God. So the desire remains, butit becomes hitched to things
that are not of God. Sounderneath most of our evil
desires, Joshua, underneath mostof our evil desires are actually
desires for the good, that arejust perverted and twisted.
(15:08):
That's why this book, I think,is, is is, is so critical,
Joshua Johnson (15:15):
then how can we orient our desires towards the
good? What does that discernmentlook like for us? How do we know
when maybe some of the thesedesires or our gray areas? We
don't know if it's black andwhite? And how do we order it
towards the good,
A.J. Swoboda (15:35):
there's, there's a power, there's a real power in
reconnecting and reunderstanding our family of
origin or childhood. And when Igo back to that story of, of
getting away with my therapistfor three days, for four days,
and getting into my story, whatI learned from that experience
is afterwards, that when Jesussays, you know, Let the children
(15:59):
come to Me, He does mean, youknow, let the physical, let the
actual children come to Me, Iknow, that's what he means. But
it also I think, for many of usas adults, I think what that
means is, don't let let yourchildhood Let your inner child
but let that kid of yours, cometo Jesus. And, and that what
Jesus has the power to do, is hecan heal much of many of our
(16:22):
childhood wounds retroactively.
And part below that requiresthat we're willing to go back
and listen. But many of ourdesires are connected to those
childhood stories. And so Soreconnecting with our childhood
family of origin stuff, is avery healing experience.
Joshua Johnson (16:43):
As it is interesting, you know, when I've
gone back at times back into mychildhood, one of the things
that that set me on a trajectorywas the moment my sister came
home from the hospital when Iwas three years old. And she as
a colicky baby, had all theattention in the house. And I
felt like I was alone, right.
And it was strange, like thatset me on a path of trajectory
(17:05):
where my voice was, was mutedand silent. I believed. And so I
became quieter and morereserved. And I had to go back.
And so even little things likethat, where none of that was,
was a sin war. None of that waswas something that I did
(17:27):
personally that I needed to say,I'm confessing those things in
your childhood, I needed to say,Jesus, where were you in that
situation? Where will? And thenwhat can I know from that scene?
And how can I live differentlytoday with you? And how can you
hear me? So what I know that inJames that says, you know,
(17:50):
confess your sins, one toanother, and you'll be healed?
Right? Yeah. You and when you'reconfessing your sins, one to
another? But what about thosetrauma things, the things that
have been done to us, like sendthat has been done to us, or
even inadvertent things thathave done to us? How do we get
healing, and those
A.J. Swoboda (18:09):
this is a perfect moment for me to name my own. My
own inadequacies, I am not atrained therapist, nor am I a
trauma informed, I'm not I'm nota trauma informed theologian.
And so I need to defer, asalways in people's lives to
being in the right spaces to askthose on a personal level,
because that won't be I want tobe careful to not speak in a
(18:31):
general way. But but but I wouldsay as someone with a unique
experience in the church and asa theologian, we we can easily
create false, a false form ofspirituality that basically says
(18:52):
something like this. In Jesus,the blood of Christ washes away
all of that pain. And so justmove on. And does Jesus heal?
Does Jesus heal and bring bringus forgiveness for our sin 100%.
But part of the healing processmust go further than the
(19:18):
forgiveness of sins, andactually to distinguish the two.
And first John one, John says,confess your sins to God, and
you'll be forgiven. James says,confess your sins to each other
for healing. And what strikes meis there's a difference between
forgiveness and healing. Andmany Christians, many Christians
(19:45):
are forgiven but unhealed. Andbut but I would also say many of
my secular friends who do a lotof work of naming their own
brokenness in a counselingoffice US experience healing,
but haven't tapped intoforgiveness yet. We need
(20:07):
forgiveness and healing. And thework of healing is a much larger
story than just praying thesinners prayer. So I think I'm
gonna defer here to people'spastors, shepherds, and, and
therapists, and say, in theintricacies of your stories, get
(20:28):
in those rooms to talk aboutthat. But But theologically,
we've, we must reject anunderstanding of healing, that
simply says, I've prayed aprayer, the work is done. No,
often the prayer is thebeginning of
Joshua Johnson (20:45):
the work. So you know, a lot of people come to
you and say, I'm tempted in thisplace or another, this is my
desire that I'm going to have.
Jesus himself was tempted inevery way, as a human, and was
able to, to live within thelimits of what is God given to
us. And, you know, the serpentcame to you to Adam and Eve, and
(21:08):
they decided to eat of the fruitthat God said, You shouldn't eat
of ants that was catastrophicfor humanity, up until now. But
Jesus himself was tempted by bySatan, and he was able to
withstand that temptation, andnot given to you. Even, you
know, taking over all of thekingdoms of the worlds. He, he
(21:33):
didn't give into that. And eventhe things that I, I think,
would not be sinful of like aturning this this rock into
bread, I don't think that wouldbe sinful. But it was a limit
that he was given at thatmoment. How can we learn from
Jesus and his temptations andhow he didn't give in to you
(21:56):
with a into that, for us movingforward?
A.J. Swoboda (22:01):
Yeah, I mean, there's so much about the
temptation story of Jesus thatwe could talk about. And by the
way, that the way that Matthewis the way Matthew records,
Jesus being tempted in thedesert, it's it's not a mistake,
that, you know, the firsttemptation Jesus faces, is turn
(22:22):
the rock into bread. It it's nota mistake, that the first
temptation Jesus faces is aroundfood. And the temptation that
the man and the woman expectswas around food as well, that
the enemy's, you know, tacticsare kind of on full display here
is that he often gives us ourdeepest temptations, in a way
that is aligned with our deepestneeds, you know, and so, but but
(22:46):
but actually, you know, the moreand more I read the temptation
story of Jesus in the desert, inMatthew's Gospel, in particular,
is is actually walk away fromthat story, realizing this is
not a a story about what we'resupposed to do. We read I think
we read the the Matthew, that weread, The Temptations are in
(23:06):
Think like, Okay, if we followhow Jesus does this, we can
withstand our own temptationthat becomes a paradigm for how
we can, you know, withstand ourown condition, there's certainly
lessons we can learn from it,right? Jesus stands on what has
been written, and he quotes itis written multiple times, he
quotes, relatively obscure OldTestament texts like
Deuteronomy, and you know, thathe has in his back pocket that
(23:29):
he knows. But but the more andmore I read that I'm actually
not convinced that this is a setof stories about how we can face
our own temptations, it'sactually the opposite. It's
about how humans cannot facetheir own temptations and need
somebody else who can. That itbecomes in essence, it becomes
(23:50):
the story about what humanscould never do and can't do, and
only only Jesus can do. So. Ithink when it's reframed that
way, it becomes less about howwe face our temptations. And it
becomes more about how we standbehind Jesus, who faced the
temptations that we ourselvescannot write, though, that we
stand behind his his capacity towithstand the doubles. But But
(24:14):
even that, I mean, still still,Jesus is the sinless Son of God,
you've never since never since,and yet experiences temptation.
And that even that in of itselfis so redeeming for me, because
I am so quick to just shamemyself and beat myself up for
facing temptations, as thoughtemptations were a sin and tempt
(24:37):
if Jesus is sinless andexperienced temptations, real
human temptation. And if you'regonna say they weren't real
human temptations, then you aredenying the humanity of Jesus,
and that we have a word forthat. That's called heresy. So,
if Jesus really facedtemptations, then it is not a
(24:58):
sin, to experience It's unwanteddesires, it is not a sin to
experience, deep temptations. Itis indeed a sin to follow them
and do them. But to experiencethem all in of themselves, is to
deny Jesus's own experience. Youcan walk faithfully with God, in
(25:24):
an experienced temptation andnot give it its power. That's a
liberating concept. Because,Joshua, I know so many
Christians that don't beatthemselves up because of sin,
they beat themselves up becausethey want sin. That's called the
flesh. And, and you've got it,and it's not going to go away
until your resurrection. And,and you don't get to choose your
(25:47):
flesh, the flesh is. So that maybe a liberating word for just
one person, stop beatingyourself up for having unwanted
desires, or temptation. GoodLord, Jesus experienced it. You
may as well be kind to yourself.
Joshua Johnson (26:05):
Yes, ads, man, I'd love to be kind to myself,
that'd be great. Also helps merely on God more than if I
didn't have those, I actuallylean into him more and more and
more, because I have thesethorns. I have these
(26:26):
temptations. I have this sinfuldesire, I need Jesus over and
over and over again. And so ithelps me not to become
complacent and my faith, myrelationship with Him, and to
say I need you.
A.J. Swoboda (26:42):
You started just by asking me how thorns are a
gift. Yeah. And you're you'reanswering the question that you
provoked at the beginning ofthis conversation, those thorns
in our side. Those things thatwe we bear in our lives that we
don't want that we wish were notthere, when they are held, well
make us dependent on God, theyactually end up making us deeper
(27:07):
people. We spend our livestrying to get rid of the thorns,
rather than seeing the thorns asGod's way of teaching us to be
dependent people. Yeah.
Joshua Johnson (27:17):
This morning, I started to cry while reading
your book, in the section whereyou talked about your course of
teaching Bible, gender, andsexuality. Is that I mean, that
was a hard thing for you to beable to enter into and do is
difficult. And but it there wassome beautiful things that
(27:39):
happened in that can you take usinto into that course? How?
Because I think that canactually be a little bit healing
for us. Thinking about today,our culture, our differences are
polarization. And what does itlook like to be open and honest
with one another?
A.J. Swoboda (27:59):
Yeah, there's so many dynamics about I'm
reteaching. That class, I'mteaching it in the fall again.
And I'm, I'm so excited. It hasbecome my favorite class, Bible,
sexuality and gender. Yeah, I'mI'm so so I'm a I'm a very, I
don't like these the terms are,can be alienating. I apologize.
But I'm what you would call anold school conservative, you
(28:23):
know, Guy on sexuality. Andit's, you know, historically
Christian perspective, whateverword you want to call it. And I
teach at a, you know, a big yourChristian University, and in
which we have a very diverse setof students. And I decided a
couple of years ago, I needed toteach a class on this. And I'm
tired of running away from thetopic, and I'm tired for my
(28:44):
students being afraid to talkabout it. So I taught a class
and I went in, very excited, andthen the first class happened,
and I thought, I'm gonna lose myjob. I'm going to get canceled
or something bad's gonna happen.
And what happened over the next16 weeks, have a group of
students who came together andwith open hearts and open minds,
(29:06):
read the Bible, and didn't soputting their agendas aside, I
mean, I had students in thatclass, who work gotten
conservative students, I hadprogressive students, I had
straight kids, I had a couple ofgay kids in that class. And I
saw the kingdom of God come inthat class. And it and it came.
Because I saw a group of peopleput aside everything that they
(29:31):
brought to the conversation,their anger, their frustration,
their you know all of it, andjust decided to listen to the
Bible. And what I found was whenwe actually choose to allow the
Bible to be our guiding star,when it becomes our when it
becomes the thing that speaks tous, most truthfully and
(29:57):
prophetically. It is healing foreverybody. It's hard. And it
didn't, it was not an easyclass. But I had students in
that class, who privately Imean, after the class students
who were like, I have never, asa Christian, been in an
environment where we can talkabout this stuff. And the very
fact that we were able to talkabout it was healing for
(30:21):
students. Here's what I found.
The church needs to stop beingterrified to talk about this. In
our book, the Bible is sounbelievably healing, but we're
embarrassed of it. And we, andwe talk about it the way Abraham
talked about Sarah, She's not mywife, she's my sister. And we're
(30:44):
embarrassed. And we need to stopbeing embarrassed of God's word
to us in His healing, and itdeserves to be heard. And, yeah,
it may get you cancelled, andyou may lose your job. But at
the end of the day, what's mostimportant, I'd rather people be
healed, and I lose my job thananything else.
Joshua Johnson (31:00):
Amen. Amen. Is there a way that we could take
that, that same concept, thatsame thing outside of the
classroom or outside of achurch, where people from
diverse backgrounds,perspectives can be together and
have some sort of an experiencelike that? So they could
actually hear from one another,listen to one another and see
(31:23):
one another?
A.J. Swoboda (31:23):
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm sure that there is I
haven't figured it out. But whatI can say is that there are
people who are modeling that andmodeling it with such profound
grace and truthfulness. I think,for example, my friend Preston
sprinkle, whose work in theologyand the raw and whatnot. I mean,
he is just modeling biblicalfaithfulness and profound
(31:44):
compassion. At the same time, Ithink of my friend, Pastor Evan
Wickham, who pastors Park HillChurch in San Diego, I'm
drinking from his coffee cupright now. He is modeling in the
church, what a pastor can do, inour moment in time to lead
people into these things. Thereare models that are rising to
the surface. And I would love tobe part of that on the
(32:08):
theological side. But I haven'tfigured it out yet. I'm just
starting with doing a class. AndI think eventually down the
road, I want to write a bookabout that class, just a whole
book about what I learned fromthis class, how to talk about
these things in a really goodway. But I need to teach it more
than one time before I can reachup.
Joshua Johnson (32:27):
Yeah, well, yeah, more practice more
practice. And I think that isgood. I, man, it's such, I
think, a stellar example of whatwe need to be, and to focus on
the Bible moving forward, thathelps us order things and order
our desires correctly, to bemore aligned with Jesus. And,
(32:51):
you know, Jesus himself. This isthe thing that he you know, he
says, to all of us, is that weget to deny ourselves, take up
our cross and follow him. It'show, yay, I want to deny.
(33:13):
Why is that healing to denyourselves? Yeah,
A.J. Swoboda (33:17):
yeah, here's why.
Because the desires I have onMonday are so different than the
desires I have on Friday. And Ineed some place where my desires
are not the center of my being.
I in my book, I call I call thecross the Sabbath for desires.
And what I mean by that is thatwe need a place to hang our
(33:38):
desires so that they don'tcontrol us that I have a stable
identity that transcends that,listen, I am a different person
on Mondays and I am on Fridays,I'd say on Mondays, I just want
to give everything up. I'm like,I want to quit it all. I want to
go live as an Amish person, bymyself, reject everything. And
then on Friday, I'm like, I lovemy life, the weekends coming all
(34:00):
is great. I am two differentpeople. And if I don't have a
place to hang my desires, I'mgoing to be I'm going to
traumatize everyone around me.
I'm going to be like twodifferent human beings. And when
Jesus says Deny yourself, pickup your cross and follow me. I
get the sense he's saying like,you don't, you can actually be
(34:23):
liberated from having to makeyour desires the core part of
your identity. You don't have tofollow your desires. That is so
liberating. Because we live in amoment in time, where it's like
the secular sainthood of ourmoment is you have to follow
your desires. And if you dothat, that is living hell.
(34:44):
That's how on earth I can't livethat way. If I if I followed the
mantra you do you, everybody inmy life would be traumatized. My
son would Pay the heaviest pricefor that Bologna, trashy way of
thinking. Thank God, I'm freedfrom that. I don't have to do
(35:07):
that. I have the Holy Spirit.
And I have I have I get to havea stable identity that
transcends the Monday, AJ fromthe Friday, AJ.
Joshua Johnson (35:17):
And then that's so good. What would you say to
your readers? What? What wouldyou hope for them to move
forward after reading your book?
A.J. Swoboda (35:29):
There's this weird thing that happens with writers
where when you get together withanother writer, it's so fun.
It's so awesome. Because you getto like, be like, Oh, you get
me. You understand what it'slike to put a book out, you
understand, like, the anxiety inthe sphere, it really means a
lot to be understood bysomebody. And I want I want
(35:51):
people to read this book, andsay the phrase, this book put
language to what I experiencedevery day of my life, so that
you know, you are not alone.
And, and to have that kind offellowship, I may never meet all
my readers, but I want my readerto feel like whoever wrote this
(36:15):
book gets me, I'm not alone.
Joshua Johnson (36:21):
And God is with me, as beautiful. That's really
beautiful. So then how canpeople go out and get your book
and connect with you?
A.J. Swoboda (36:31):
Yeah, I you know, I increasingly hate social
media. But if somebody wantedto, and I have a website, AJ
swoboda.com, you can buy my bookanywhere books are sold. Another
great way is I do a Thursdaysubstack article called low
level theologian, that calledthe low level theologian, which
is about just a weeklydevotional, I have a podcast
(36:54):
called Slow theology that youcan listen to, but at the end of
the day, to get the book, youcan get it anywhere books are
sold, try to support your localbookstore if you can.
Joshua Johnson (37:04):
Yeah, that's right. That's good. Well, AJ, I
love your book, like it's, itspoke to me deeply, to be able
to figure out how do I order mydesires? Well, to know that
desires are actually good,they're from God, and that my
sinful desires are the backdropof a undergirding longing that I
(37:29):
actually have. Yeah, that isgood. And for God and with God.
And so thank you for walking usthrough this. I know it was, it
was not an easy book, to write.
And it was a lot of a lot ofwork for you. And I think this
is really, it's been helpful forme, and I pray that it's really
helpful for a lot of people. Imean, there's a couple of
(37:52):
desires that I have, afterreading this book, one, I have a
desire to get a groups of peopleto read this together, to be
able to discuss their desires,and help us order them properly
as a actual formation towardsJesus, like, what does that look
like? And to I have a desire tospend time with you, because I
(38:14):
loved getting to know youthrough these pages and these
words, and that I would love tobe at a birthday celebration
with you.
A.J. Swoboda (38:28):
It would require a drawing. But Manchester from you
back, Joshua. Yeah, I think thisis actually the second time I've
been with you. I think weactually did a podcast earlier.
And the podcast worlds aninteresting world. Many of the
people that I get interviewed bydon't read my books. And the
fact that you just said that youcried, as you read, it actually
says you read the thing. Thankyou for taking seriously your
(38:50):
task and doing the work that youdo, and actually caring enough
to actually engage the stuffthat you're talking about. It
means the world to me as areader, your your listeners are
served very well by you.
Joshua Johnson (39:00):
Thank you. Thank you. As a closing, can you just
recommend one thing for us thathas been helping you right now
to something has been helpingyou? Yep.
A.J. Swoboda (39:14):
Listening to my son. My son is a prophet to my
life, and he is the best gaugein terms of how I'm doing health
wise. And he tells me when I'mnot around enough, he says, Dad,
you are angry, but you're notsaying it. My son was a prophet.
And when Jesus said, Let thechildren come to Me, he meant
(39:35):
it. Let the children come to youtheir profits, listen to kids.
Joshua Johnson (39:40):
Amen. So God, thank you, AJ, I really enjoyed
this conversation. And it's justa pleasure to talk to you. Thank
you,
A.J. Swoboda (39:47):
Joshua. Thank you
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