In this episode, Micha Boyett shares her story of finding out her son Ace would be born with down syndrome and the subsequent years of raising him. Through her story, she uses the framework of the beatitudes found in Jesus’ sermon on the mount as a way to embrace the limits and longings that she has been given. We talk about how the Beatitudes help redefine human worth and value through Jesus' teachings of blessing the marginalized. Micha discusses ableism, grief, suffering, spirituality, following Jesus by loving those on the margins, and living more slowly in today's fast-paced world. So join us as we learn to embrace our limits and longings, so that we can enter the full life of flourishing.
In addition to Blessed Are the Rest of Us, Micha Boyett is the author of Found: A Story of Questions, Grace, and Everyday Prayer and a contributor to the New York Times bestseller A Rhythm of Prayer, edited by Sarah Bessey. She is cohost of the award winning The Lucky Few podcast, creator of The Slow Way podcast and newsletter, and has written for publications such as the Washington Post and Christianity Today. In addition to her work as a writer, she is a part-time youth pastor at Good Shepherd Church in New York City. Boyett lives with her husband and their three sons.
Micha's book:
Blessed Are the Rest of Us
Micha's Substack:
The Slow Way
Micha's Recommendations:
Field Notes for the Wilderness by Sarah Bessey
Mostly What God Does by Savannah Guthrie
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Micha Boyett (00:00):
Part of the gift for me of having a child with
(00:05):
intellectual disability has beenjust that I have been forced
every day to reckon with theintrinsic ableism inside me that
has transformed the way I existin the world. But I think it has
the power to transform everybodyelse who is not with someone
(00:27):
with a disability daily. Butsome of that is just knowing
someone. Some of that is puttingyourself in a space where you
can encounter people whose livesare different than yours.
Joshua Johnson (00:53):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
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(01:15):
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Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
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them how much you enjoy it andlet them know that they should
be listening as well. If you'renew here, welcome. If you want
(01:37):
to dig deeper find us on socialmedia at shifting culture
podcast, where I post videoclips and quotes and interact
with all of you. Previous guestson the show have included Sarah
Bessie, Kayla Craig and Sharonhottie Miller. You can go back
listen to those episodes andmore. But today's guest is Micah
Boyet. In addition to bless herthe rest of us Michael Boyd is
(01:57):
the author of found a story ofquestions grace and everyday
prayer and a contributor to theNew York Times bestseller a
rhythm of prayer, edited bySarah Bessie. She is co host of
the award winning the lucky fewpodcast, creator of the slow way
podcast and newsletter and haswritten for publications such as
the Washington Post andChristianity today. In addition
(02:18):
to her work as a writer, she isa part time youth pastor at Good
Shepherd Church in New York Cityboy that lives with her husband
and their three sons in NewJersey. As we enter into this
conversation, Micah shares herstory of finding out her son ace
will be born with Down syndromein the subsequent years of
(02:38):
raising him. For her story, sheuses the framework of the
Beatitudes found in Jesus'ssermon on the mount as a way to
embrace the limits and longingsthat she has been given. We
talked about how the Beatitudeshelp redefine human worth and
value through Jesus's teachingsof blessing. The marginalized.
Micah discusses ableism grief,suffering spirituality following
(02:59):
Jesus by loving those on themargins, and living more slowly
in today's fast paced world. Sojoin us as we learn to embrace
our limits and longings so thatwe can enter the full life of
flourishing. Here's myconversation with Micah boy yet.
Well, Micah, welcome to shiftingculture. Really excited to have
(03:19):
you on thank you for joining me.
Micha Boyett (03:23):
You are so welcome. Thanks for having me,
Joshua.
Joshua Johnson (03:26):
Yeah, this book club, bless her. The rest of us
how limits and longing make uswhole is absolutely fantastic,
did an incredible job. And Iknow, you know, when I have
authors on, I know how much workgoes into these books and how
many years goes into it. And tohave it be birthed is quite an
(03:48):
accomplishment. But this onefeels very, very special. And to
bring in the Beatitudes, and tobring in what is our posture
like towards towards Jesus inthe midst of, of suffering and
difficulty and the ever day oflife? I think is fantastic. So
(04:09):
Well, Dad, good job so
Micha Boyett (04:11):
much. That is that just makes my heart flutter.
Thank you.
Joshua Johnson (04:17):
Yeah, of course.
You know, I would love to juststart out with your story as
you're have written a lot ofthis book as you're taking the
the Beatitudes as a framework asyou're walking through, but also
sharing a bit of your own storyas well in the midst of it. So
using your own story and theBeatitudes together. So take us
(04:38):
into that. Where does thisstart? Where does your story
start? And how does thatintersect with these blessings
of Jesus?
Micha Boyett (04:51):
Sure, yeah. So most of the story of this book
is about them, the birth and thelaw. I have my youngest son, I
have three boys. And nine yearsago, when I was pregnant with my
youngest, I had an experiencethat happens actually to a lot
(05:13):
of women, where you go in foryour ultrasound, and the doctor
comes in concerned and says,there is, there's a marker here
for Down syndrome, we think weshould test. Now this, I mean, I
had this happen to so manyfriends, in my, in my 10 years
where everybody was havingbabies, that I almost, like,
(05:36):
barely let myself think aboutit. I was sort of like, yep,
this happened to this person andthis person in this person,
everybody's fine. So I took ablood test. And two weeks later,
I picked up the phone when thegeneticists called me back. And
I was I mean, this shows you howmuch I was not concerned, I tend
(06:00):
I'm, I tend to worry a lot. Butsomehow there are things in my
life that I don't worry about atall, and which causes problems.
But I am walking to gymnasticsclass in San Francisco where I
lived, pushing my little toddlerin his stroller, and I pick up
the phone. And this stranger, Ididn't know, told me that the
(06:23):
child I was carrying had Downsyndrome would have Down
syndrome. And it was, you know,I think there's just those
moments in your life when youare like, here's, here's where
my life is going. And theneverything, everything stops,
the whole thing turns around,you start walking in different
(06:43):
direction. And that was whathappened for me. I had a real
season of, of grieving andtrying to understand what I was
grieving. I had been a personwho had grown up around people
(07:03):
with intellectual disability,and loved them. And I think that
also shocked me that I grievedthat, that I was not, like,
ready, set go with this newlife. That was the head God was
offering me. And then my son wasborn. And he went from being and
(07:25):
he remember the very moment, hewent from being a diagnosis that
I was terrified of, to being aperson I knew and loved. And it
was when I looked in his faceand said, Oh, it's you. It's
you, I know you. And, and thisbook is about, not necessarily
(07:50):
that season, of finding out thatmy son would have Down syndrome,
but all the seasons after oflearning how to, to live beside
him in this world, in a worldthat often doesn't want one him
in a world that often doesn'tmake space for him. That, that
(08:12):
is afraid of him. And, and as Istarted to enter into that world
with my eyes opened to whatpeople believed about my son, I
needed to redefine what Ibelieved about myself and about
my son. And I found, I found away forward in the Beatitudes, I
(08:36):
found Jesus setting up Hisentire ministry, and saying, who
matters most in the world. And,and I realized in the process,
that the way that I had thoughtI mattered was by what I did, by
what I achieved by how, howimpressively I showed up in the
(08:57):
world. And that in living thatway, and believing that way. I,
I was living opposite of how Iwanted the world to see my son.
So it was a transformation ofmyself to from a life of have
seen my worth, from what I didto see my worth from my
(09:20):
belovedness and from God'sdelight in my humanity.
Joshua Johnson (09:27):
Now that's the really most transformational
things that could ever happen tous as humans is moving from our
worth from what we do to who weare as a beloved child of God.
And how do how does theBeatitudes place us in that
place? How did you get that hopefrom saying oh, this is what
(09:51):
Jesus says about those who whosuffer and mourn and all of
these things, and that there'sthis the kingdom. How did that
how Have you realize yourbelovedness? And move away from
saying I am? Who what I do?
Micha Boyett (10:08):
That's a great question. I think as I began to
learn how to be aces, Mom aces,my youngest son, with Down
syndrome, I, I needed toredefine a lot of things. And
one of the things I needed todefine was what makes us human
in and I think that that processof working through that question
(10:31):
was a really deeply spiritualprocess for me. And I think I
knew, in my gut, that the waythat Jesus lived in the world,
was always pointing to the worthand value of my son. But I think
it took me a while to find theBeatitudes as my textbook for
(10:55):
for this, this new way of being.
Jesus gives His beatitudes twicein the gospels, once it's before
His Sermon on the Mount, whichis the longest recorded sermon
in, in the scriptures of Jesus,and His Sermon on the plane,
which is almost the same asexcept it takes place on a plane
(11:17):
instead of a mountain, which Ithink is really funny. And, you
know, some scholars think thatthis is, maybe like Jesus had a
few talks he gave, you know,like, maybe this is a talk he
gave in one place, and he gave atalk in the same in another
place, and they showed up alittle bit different each time.
But before he gets his sermon onthe mount, and this is takes
(11:40):
place at the start of hisministry, he almost has this
little poetry riff. And it'slike a poem when he gives his
Beatitudes, and you know, alittle about the background of
what he's doing there. This is aGreco Roman oratory tradition,
where speakers would stand up infront of people and say, I'm
(12:02):
going to tell you how to livethe good life, I'm going to tell
you how to be happy, and theywould start reciting how to be
happy. And it would be aboutvirtues, you know, like, do not
steal from your neighbor and bekeep your word. And you know,
all these things of like, yes,yes, yeah, that makes a person a
good person, you know, and Jesusstands up, takes this same
(12:27):
tradition that people would knowand recognize, and says, I'm
going to tell you how to livethe good life, I'm going to tell
you how to find true humanhappiness. And it, I'm going to
tell you that it belongs tothese people, it belongs to all
of you who are poor, or poor inspirit, it belongs to all of you
who are grieving, it belongs tothose of you who have no power,
(12:50):
or who give up your power. Itbelongs to you, who are showing
mercy to you who are longing forjustice, like this list of, not
not virtues, but lists of, ofpain list of the human
experience. And, you know,there's, we, we may not be
(13:12):
experiencing everything on thatlist, at at, at the same time in
our lives, but we will movethrough that list in different
ways, we will all grieves,hopefully, we will all be given
the chance to give up our powerfor the sake of another person,
hopefully, we will, we will liveout this longing for justice.
(13:33):
And the reason I found ace inthat was because I saw Jesus
centering the people who werenot being centered in the world,
and still centering those peoplethrough these words. This is a
poem that says, here's thepeople who who get to live the
life that God dreams of. Andit's all of you who don't think
(13:57):
you're living the life that thatyou dreamed of. There. It's this
incredible invitation that issometimes really confusing. But
I think also has the potentialto transform us. It
Joshua Johnson (14:14):
will transform us, it's been really beneficial
for for me as I've been walkingthrough those things. But as we
we look at the Beatitudes, oneof the things that you know,
even in the title of your book,blast the rest of us were
talking about that word blast alot of times it's it's just a
platitude of blessings. And wedon't really know what that
(14:38):
actually means. And I like thatyou use the Greek throughout
your your book to help us reframe and rethink what blessing
is and what being blessed means.
Can you reframe it for us sothat we know what this is? And
it's not just a really surfacelevel platitude that we give
each other Yeah,
Micha Boyett (15:00):
yeah, it actually is funny and a little bit
embarrassing to me that blast ispart of the title of I was gonna
say, Yeah, I promised myselflike 15 years ago, I would never
use the word again. There's, itis such a trite phrase, and like
(15:22):
this vaguely religious, youknow, quasi spiritual term that
people usually refer to, for,like getting a great parking
spot, and, and their kids makingstraight A's and never talking
back. And, you know, havingtheir team win the Super Bowl.
And I just the thing that hasalways driven me crazy about
(15:48):
this, that word, is just what itassumes about God, and what it
assumes about us. And it, it'sthis idea that, like, I'm going
to somehow be good enough thatGod is going to make my life
easier. And when we live thatway, and believe those things,
(16:12):
then when people come into ourlives, like my son, whose life
is not easy, but it's good andbeautiful. It is hard when you
have this view of blessing toknow what to do with that. I
also think there's like, no, no,I have, after ace was born, a
(16:35):
kind of experience two differentkinds of people, I experienced
the people who were concernedhim with, with his reality with
his existence, who were sorry,who were I actually had someone
asked me soon after he was born,just like, drop a drop off at
(16:57):
school, why I decided to keephim. And, and it is, you know, a
shock that people feelcomfortable saying that kind of
thing to my mom, but also reallyrevealing about the way that
people think about disability inour culture. So I had that
(17:18):
experience. And then I had thisopposite experience. That was
kind of like, the, the boomerson Facebook sending me memes
about how ace was an angelchain, how am I cared, it
inspires all, and there was alot of, I don't know, that made
me feel icky to i, it didn'tfeel right for, for me to hear
(17:42):
from people that they were sohappy that I had this angel baby
who was going to teach everyonehow to how to be happy. And, and
both things. Were denying Hishumanity, both the rejection or
seen him as a burden on society.
And the part that says he's anangel, like both were rejecting
the fact that he is actuallyfully human, and fully loved and
(18:06):
fully himself. And, and so Ithink that idea of blessing was
difficult for me when I came tothe Beatitudes. I, I really
loved the things Jesus wasblessing people for, but the
fact that he was blessing was,was concerning to me. And I had,
(18:29):
you know, I'm a Bible nerd. So Ihad a lot of fun researching and
just was delighted when I foundJonathan Pennington scholar,
scholarly work where he talksabout this, this word, and I'll
probably say it wrong, becauseI'm no Greek scholar. But it's
(18:52):
McElroy, and it is the it's,that's that's the plural,
singular is macarius. And it'sthe word that Jesus uses for
blessing. And we've translatedit blessed. But it would be a
more accurate translation,probably to say something like,
(19:19):
true human happiness, or theflourishing life, or wholeness.
And now, and that felt reallyimportant to me to single in on
that, that what we think ofblessing is, is not what Jesus
was intending in this poem. He'sintending to tell us what it
(19:39):
means to find the really realthe, the true thing underneath
the surface of how we live andand that that is what true human
happiness and flourishing lookslike.
Joshua Johnson (19:56):
And we just blew by really quickly really real,
but you're taught, and also thedream of God, some of the things
that you've helped you redefinewhat the kingdom of God is, is
that you know, as God's dreamfor the world, that's what is
really real. Beyond the facadeof this fallen world that we
(20:17):
live in, at sea, what is the thekingdom? And I think that's
helpful for us as we're walkingin, what does it look like to
have flourishing? So as you'renow entering into the space
where you have your son, and youhave ace, and he is on, on the
margins on the outside ofsociety, as you said, there's,
(20:39):
there's two reactions to thishuman life that you have with
you, the sun that you have thatyou love, that is fully human?
How do we move from seeingpeople as marginalized to
actually then centering themarginalized? How do we get to
(21:00):
that posture of moving towardscentering, instead of seeing
people as other and other endpeople? Yeah. And
Micha Boyett (21:13):
I, I, in part of this podcast, with two other
women who are also moms of kidsin in the Down Syndrome space,
and we we talk about every week,that our goal is to shift
narratives, and to shout theworst of people living with Down
syndrome. And that is a reallycomplicated thing to do.
(21:38):
Because, you know, I think Ireferred briefly to ableism. But
it ableism is deep in us, and ithas not, you know, I think as,
as a culture, we have been, likea lot has been revealed in, in
(21:59):
the last 20 years about theprejudices we hold. And, and
thankfully, there's greatconversation happening around
race. And there's not as muchconversation happening around
the prejudice that we all carrywith us, when it comes to people
(22:19):
who are living with disability.
And in my experience, of, ofloving someone with disability,
its intellectual disability.
And, you know, when I talkedabout my seen my value and my
worth as, as based on what Icould do, even in my
relationship with God, of howcould I please God? How could I
(22:43):
be the right person, even thatview of life is an ableist
framework. It's this way ofseeing our ourselves as only
worthy because what we can do,and then when we encounter
people who can't do what we cando, we don't we don't know how
(23:04):
to respond. It's scary to us,because we have lived our lives,
finding our value value in thisvery particular way of being
alive. And yeah, I think part ofthe gift for me of having a
child with an intellectualdisability has been just that I
(23:30):
have been forced every day toreckon with the intrinsic
ableism inside me, that hastransformed the way I exist in
the world. But I think it hasthe power to transform everybody
else who is not with someonewith a disability daily. But
(23:50):
some of that is just knowingsomeone, some of that is putting
yourself in a space where youcan encounter people whose lives
are different than yours. I havea down the street, we just
happened we moved three yearsago to New Jersey. And we
happened to move into a housewhere a block away, there is a
(24:13):
home of people with and withoutdisabilities living together.
And it's it's called co home.
And it's this inclusive livingsituation. And one of the things
the founder talks about is thatin most things, what most of
what we think of as group homeswhere people adults with
disability, are livingindependently or living with
(24:35):
caregivers is those group homesor on the outskirts of town.
There, you have to, you know,everybody piles into a van and
drive somewhere to go, you know,experience an event or whatever.
And people don't typical peoplerarely run into people with
(24:56):
disability because people withdisability are living on the
outskirts of town, people withdisability are going to specific
work spaces that are not in theheart of the community. And one
of the things that CO homewanted to do was put a house
right in the middle of thehistoric district of my town,
(25:17):
walking distance to the coffeeshop and walking distance to the
grocery store. And for forpeople with disability, to be
front and center, to be seen, tobe valued as members of the
community. And I think that isthe kind of, of thing that
changes all of us. People withdisability are marginal,
(25:41):
marginalized, because those ofus without disability are not
seeking them out. And there areso many people, if you don't
know anyone with a disability,it's because you're not looking.
And you're not centering themyet. But start centering. And,
and you'll see him Yes,
Joshua Johnson (26:03):
as you go, and just to be able to, to be next
to people to see them for whothey are, their humanity, it
changes us all right, that Ithink any of these conversations
that we have have even politicalarguments of you know, this,
whatever it is, whether it beimmigration, or race or
(26:26):
disability, whatever it is, oncewe have relationship with
people, and we see them when weknow them, and we're involved in
proximate space with them, itchanges us. And so we have to
get outside of ourselves, and wehave to move towards something
different. And the thing youknow, when I lived in the Middle
(26:48):
East, it shocked me how, howmuch behind the century and the
disabled, they are even in theMiddle East, right, that all all
the disabled are hidden away inpeople's homes. And they are
just left in corners. It's it'svery, very sad, of what is
(27:09):
happening. And there's a longways that we have to go in
America to be able to do thatand move people forward to see
people for for who they are.
And, man, it's, it's a necessarything. You know, one of the
things you talked about brieflyas the beginning when you were
with a sudden you realize thathe is going to have Down
(27:33):
syndrome, and you got that call,and you started to grieve, and
you didn't know why you'regrieving or what you are
craving, because you still havethis this person. And sometimes
we grieve, you know, a loss ofsomething that we never had. One
of the things you say in yourchapter on grief and the
Beatitudes, you know, blessedare those who grieve. And you,
(27:54):
you have it here they will beinvited to a divine banquet. And
I want to just want to readthis, it says the invitation to
the banquet of grief throws openthe doors of suffering, to
reveal the kind of flourishingknown only to those who have
gone out with weeping andstepped back through with shouts
of joy. How is that possible towalk through we've been
(28:17):
suffering and stepping back inwith shouts of joy.
Micha Boyett (28:23):
Mom, I love that.
I love that question. In thebook, I write about grieving,
the pregnancy that I thought Iwas going to have, right, the
child that I thought I was goingto have. In the process of
writing the book, I lost my dad,to just, you know, a horrible
brain cancer that came quicklyand painfully. And I think what
(28:44):
I've learned about grief in thatprocess has been that you don't,
you don't walk out the door withgrease, and then leave it
outside and then come back andreach out to joy. You you go out
the door with grief. And whatyou gather is you you gather
(29:07):
that into the the shouts of joyare gathered in the same arms as
the arms where you're stillcarrying the grief. The grief
doesn't go away. Especially ifthe grief is a relationship that
you don't get to have in personanymore. Like losing my dad. I
grieve because I love my dad.
(29:29):
And I don't get to have him withme. So I don't leave that
behind. But I find in the personof Jesus and in the restoration,
that that the hope we have givesus that we we can walk a path
that brings us back to Joy, thatjoy can walk along with us. I
(29:52):
think it's a mystery. And Ithink joy is a mystery to and I
think the gift of our faith Isthat we aren't asked to put down
one for the other, that we getto hold them together. And it's
in the same way as I feel aboutmy, my life of raising ace,
(30:13):
there's a lot that I longed for,for him. And in this book, I
talk, I talk a lot aboutlonging. I, I want life to be
easier for him. I have grievedseveral things along the way in
his life. And the thing that Ihave cried the most for, is the
speech that has never come forhim. And that he is still unable
(30:38):
to talk unable to say, to callme Mama. And that doesn't mean I
don't find utter delight in him.
I was just with with him attherapy this morning. And his
therapist, he, he was supposedto it was like physical therapy.
So he's supposed to be gettinglike a massage and these places,
and he just kept sitting back upand hugging her, just like, you
(31:02):
know, just like, attacking herwith hugs. And she's like, Ah, I
really got to rub your backhere. And, and that is like, my
life is full of that joy ofknowing him and what he has to
offer the world. And the griefis still there. It's still hard.
I have a friend, Heather Avis,who does the lucky few podcasts
(31:26):
with me. And she says she alwayssays hard is not bad. It's just
hard. And I think that's good.
It
Joshua Johnson (31:34):
is good. We just lost my mother in law. You know,
she's lived with us for lastseven years. And so she passed
away, you know, at the end ofJanuary. And you know, that's
the I have a six year old son.
He's only known, you know, ahome with his grandma living
with a mountain. She's gone. Andso is that it is? It's heavy
right now. So that's, you know,that's why I'm entering into
(31:57):
that grief place of like, ourcat cheese us are the ones that
grieve. Are we really blessed weactually get the the joy on
that. On the other end? Is itwrapped together? Is that
possible? Or are we just, youknow, in the midst of a vacant
space where our home feelsempty? And what? So is he there?
(32:18):
Is he going to meet us in theplace of grief? Are we truly
blessed? Is that true? That's Imean, those are the questions.
Ya know, you asked me whenyou're actually suffering and
when you're grieving, and whenit's not going. Right and
correct. But I know that I'veseen people who have suffered
(32:43):
the most become the most joyfulpeople that I know. And why do
you think people who suffer welland cling to Jesus in the midst
of suffering, have joy? Richard
Micha Boyett (33:00):
Rohr somewhere, talks about it, he took for us
to picture a circle asourselves. And there's like the
core of us, straight in themiddle of the bullseye in the
middle of that circle. And a lotof our lives we live on the
edges. And, you know, part ofthat is how we as humans, learn
(33:22):
how to survive in the world, weneed to live on the edges, the
surface of our lives, so that wecan get the things done that we
need to get done on ourchecklists, so that we can feed
the people and clean the houseand get the get our jobs done.
And, and it also is how we learnto survive in a world with
people. That the surface is howwe say, I'm fine, are you and
(33:48):
you know, there's we just, wemostly live our lives there. And
the invitation of Jesus is tomove from those edges to the
core. And I think one of thethings that is so beautiful
about the Beatitudes is thatJesus is is sort of dividing the
(34:09):
Beatitudes into this idea of ourlimits, and our longings, the
things that we dream of forourselves and the people we
love, and the things that weknow, we're limited in, limited
by our whether it's our griefthat's limited us or our power
or our ability. I think that thelimits and the longings of our
(34:34):
lives are the way we can move tothe core. I think they're kind
of like these little arrows thatare showing up on the edges
inviting us to ride them down tothe middle. I think that what
Jesus does, when we talk aboutin our suffering, in our sadness
(34:55):
in our pain, that we're findinghope is that that there are
these opportunities to ridethat, that limit to write that
longing down to the core of whowe are. And, and this some kind
of mysterious alchemy thathappens when, when we are honest
(35:18):
about those things. And when welong for hope, and we long for
joy, and we let, let it playout, because God works in a
slow, slow way. But in thatprocess, the transformation is
happening in the core, and noton the edges of us. So that when
(35:41):
it finally rises out, it risesfrom a place of, of wholeness
and not surface level. You know,we're not talking about the
person who paints on a happyface to appear to be like, like
satisfied in Jesus. Yeah, we'retalking about real
transformation inside that leaksout.
Joshua Johnson (36:03):
And that's why I love at the end of this sermon
on the mount, as he goes, hetells the parable of the wise
and foolish builder, it's abouthearing the words of Jesus and
putting them into practice,that's gonna build your house on
the rock, so that when all ofthis happens, because the storms
will come, either your house isgoing to crash, because you were
foolish, and you didn't actuallyput the words of Jesus in
(36:25):
practice, or you're wise, andyou actually did and your house
is gonna stand when the stormscome. And you could actually
weather those storms with Jesus,because of the practice of this.
And what one of the things thatyou wrote, as what Gregory Boyle
says about the Beatitudes,they're not just a spirituality,
(36:46):
it's not it's more about ageography is, how do we place
ourselves in the geography ofthe Beatitudes? And what does
that? What does that mean? Andwhat does that look like to
place ourselves in, in a place,and not just an A, and I thought
of this as a good, goodplatitude.
Micha Boyett (37:06):
I think the call of a follower of Jesus is to go
toward to move toward those whoare living in the spaces of the
Beatitudes. So, if, if we arefollowing Jesus, then we're
(37:26):
following Jesus toward the poorand spirit. We're following
Jesus, toward those who areliving with injustice. We're
following Jesus toward thegrieving. And I think that looks
different in all of our lives.
But I think we know as werecognize who we are, where we
are, what we, what we are giftedin, we know what it might look
(37:51):
like for us to move towardsthose who are experiencing
poverty, who, who need toreceive mercy. Yeah, it's a
geography because it's thegeography of humanity. And we're
invited, just like, just likeJesus invited the people who
(38:15):
were sitting in front of himwhen he gave the sermon. We're
inviting people to wholeness.
Joshua Johnson (38:21):
So for us, what does that look like? I know, you
talk about that, practically,for what that looked like for
you, at your church in SanFrancisco, while you're on elder
boards, and trying to beinclusive of the LGBTQ plus
community, that you there aresome some practical ways of
(38:42):
actually centering those on themargins, right, that you say we,
we should do this as a church.
How do we, when it's difficult,and it's hard, and there's
opposition and people that youknow that there's going, it's
not always going to go perfectlyin every sphere of what you're
(39:04):
doing? How do we enter into itand actually enter into the
place of going towards those andsay, Hey, we, you are loved,
you're a child of God. And we'rehere with you. How can we do
that?
Micha Boyett (39:25):
Yeah, the the story that I tell in my chapter
on peacemaking is about thisseason of my life when I was on
the board at my church, and wewere making a decision to become
a church that was affirming tothe LGBT t q plus community. And
(39:48):
that was the that was themessiest thing I've ever been
part of. It was the end as mostchurch pain, it goes as much
which most things when the, thechurch that you love is in
turmoil. It is the church is alot of humans, trying to figure
(40:11):
out what it means to love God.
And we can come to differentconclusions. And to me, my
calling in that moment and stillwas to be an ally, to the queer
community, to be part of achurch that wasn't afraid to
risk how people maybe risk whatpeople thought about the way we
(40:37):
were reading scripture. Risk,what, what the assumptions are.
And, and to do that, for thesake of those who have been
clobbered by the church, theLGBTQ community that has been
rejected, kicked out unwanted,has been told that God doesn't
(41:02):
love them. And in, in makingthis change in my church, it
wasn't that the people whodisagreed with me, were hateful,
it was that we were readingscripture in a different way.
And but that was choosing toread scripture in a different
way is a very painful thing tohappen to a community. And, and
(41:24):
it was also a gift for me,because I, I got to suffer in a
way that that I don't think Iwould have suffered if I hadn't
been leading through that. And,and it gave me a taste of what
my LGBTQ siblings have gonethrough just a little, a little
(41:48):
tiny taste, because I know, Idon't know what that experience
is like, but I experienced a lotof rage. There was a lot of
pain, and all that to say thatwhen we are in the church, when
we are following Jesus, it'sgoing to be messy, it's always
(42:13):
going to be messy. I learnedfrom Professor 20 years ago,
that when we read the Bible, weput on Jesus glasses, and we
read it through the lens ofJesus. And in that transformed
me, and also it made life a lotmessier. In and that's a gift
(42:36):
that's a gift, there's, there'sstill a lot of pain that that
exists from that falling apartof my church community. But
also, I say falling apart. Alsothat church community is a
beautiful, vibrant thing thatlooks really different now. And
(42:57):
that is beautiful, too. And so Ithink Jesus does a lot of things
that are messy and beautiful,painful and joyful, all the
things at once.
Joshua Johnson (43:09):
I mean, that's helpful for us to figure out
what, like, we want to find away to be faithfully like Jesus
to embody Jesus, in all the wayto what does it look like, you
know, for me, because I have alot of Arab Muslim friends like
my, my centering, especially inAmerica, is for the Arab Muslims
(43:32):
and immigrants, refugees to beseen and known and sad that they
are beloved children of God, aswell. Because we all we all have
some sort of enemies for somereason. And so whether it be
immigrants, whether it be LGBT,q plus people, whether it be ace
(43:54):
that has Down syndrome, what,how to we have the the eyes of
Jesus in those situations andcircumstances. And I think that,
that you're right, it is thebelovedness of all of us. And
every human that has existed,that our beloved children of
(44:15):
God, that will change the waythat we see humanity all around
us. And it'll change the way weinteract in the world. And we
love and we love others. Well,there's, there's something to
say, you know, at the end, youknow, for me, the Beatitudes
themselves have been a goodposture. I have come into a
(44:37):
place of we're thinking aboutthe things that we do for Jesus
as like Jesus has called us toobey His commands, so we're
doing things for him. TheBeatitudes for me, helped me
like this is the posture of whoI am in the midst of that. Yeah,
but I have limits and longlongings and I could have this
posture so I could walk into it.
What it looks like to followJesus. Because this posture, I
(45:01):
think, marks Cantor, it reallyhelped me in that as like, yes,
he helped me with the posturesthat I could take with the
Beatitudes, the end of yourbook, I want to read something
to you like, man, I'vehighlighted a lot in your
buttons. To think that's one ofthe ads we who follow Jesus may
(45:24):
never transform the whole storyof the world into one in which
all justice is restorative. Andall people have access to
health, community and joy. Butwe could follow Jesus towards
that end, living with the hopethat all things will be made
new. How do we long for hope,when we know that we're only
(45:45):
going to get partial justice,here on this earth,
Micha Boyett (45:52):
I think we, as a culture, live in a time where we
have seen so much change soquickly in terms of technology,
and the way the way humans existwith each other. That are, we
who are alive right now, don'tmove according to natural time.
(46:16):
Like we, we live in analternative time, we live in a
time machine, that is justspeeding and speeding and
speeding and speeding. And oneof the reasons I love the, like
reading the ancients reading thereading what the saints have
written over the past 2000 yearsis that I'm, I'm allowed to see
(46:42):
faith, from the perspective ofsomeone who lived in a really
different world than I live in.
And one of the things that wesee is this, just this slower
way of being in the world. And Ithink that if we were in the
natural world more, if we paidattention to the way that I'm
thinking right now of thedaffodils that are popping up in
(47:04):
my backyard, the way that plantsgrow and bloom and, and go back
to the earth, and their seeds,like, you know, go back into the
ground and the next thing comesup. And it's a regenerative
restorative world, in the midstof death and pain, some of what
(47:29):
it means to believe that God ismaking all things new and will
be making all things new, is tolive in that slower perspective,
to step back from the way thatthat we exist with our
technology and speed and our todo lists and receive that the
work of God is happening and thework of God will keep happening.
(47:55):
And we will be here for a bit.
And we are invited to our tasksat the moment, were invited to
long for justice, were invitedto show mercy were invited to to
be misunderstood for doing good.
And because we're because wewere not going to be here that
(48:16):
long. We can kind of let go ofhaving to see everything change
all at once. But believe thatit's changing and it will. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (48:26):
that's good. My wife has been quoting this.
There's a quote from MarshallMcLuhan back in the 80s. She's
been quoting this to me a lotlately. He says the greatest
discovery of the 21st centurywill be the discovery that man
was not meant to live at thespeed of light. And, and I
think, yeah, I think he's right.
This is not the way that we'remeant to live. We're, we're
(48:48):
meant to go, as you said, from,from the edges into the core of
who we are, and that's this low,transformative work into the
image and likeness of Jesus overover time. That these limits
these longings that we have willstart to shape us and form us
into what it looks like tofollow Jesus, what it looks like
(49:11):
to be like Jesus to embody himin the world that these are
things that are good for us. Isthere a limit in your life that
you thank God for now?
Micha Boyett (49:25):
I mean, the first thing that comes to mind with my
limits, maybe I'm learning tothank God for I had for gosh,
four years ago, 2019 asa and Ifell down the stairs together.
Outside of his school, he ran atme for a hug, and I went back
and I was able to save hislittle head, but my head took it
(49:49):
and I had about six to ninemonths of trying to recover from
this concussion and then I wouldbang my head again. It was like
I had no spatial awareness. And,and it has turned into pretty
terrible chronic migraines. AndI spend a lot of my life
(50:10):
managing that, you know, takingpreventative medications going
to whichever helpful, likedoctor is going to help next.
And that has been a limit thatI'm still trying to make peace
with. I, I ended up in bed, morethan I want to be in bed, I
(50:33):
ended up being the mom who waslike, Mom can help the sumo
honey Mama's has to stay betterI'm, and still, when I am laying
in my bed and pain. Every oncein a while, I get this spark of
this as a gift. And I'm learninghow to rest after a lifetime of
(50:57):
thinking that I needed to learnhow to rest. And you know,
sometimes we are forced into it.
And that doesn't mean it's easy.
It doesn't mean it's fun. Itdoesn't mean it's even great for
my family. But I am learningsomething. And I think even if I
continue to have this, kind ofhave these kinds of migraines
(51:21):
and spend time in my bed for therest of my life. I think I'll
get there as being grateful. Doyou think I will?
Joshua Johnson (51:31):
Yeah. Hope so.
We long for that place ofgratefulness. Yeah. Miko, what's
one hope you have your readersthat people that read your book,
Micha Boyett (51:43):
I hope that my readers who, you know, I hope
they come to this, whether theyconnect with disability or
connect with parenting orconnect with the things that I'm
talking about that they wouldfind in the Beatitudes,
something fresh and alive, thatthat they haven't found in their
(52:05):
faith. So far, I really wantpeople to ask the question of
what it means to be whole, andwhat it means to be moving
towards wholeness. And I thinkthat's my hope that, that that
question is being asked, andthat question is leading to
other questions. It is not socomplicated. And even as it is
(52:29):
really mysterious,
Joshua Johnson (52:31):
I have a couple quick questions. If you could go
back to your 21 year old self,what advice would you give? I
Micha Boyett (52:37):
would tell my 21 year old self that God isn't mad
at her that she is deeply loved.
And there's nothing more thatshe has to do to earn that love.
Joshua Johnson (52:52):
Beautiful, beautiful. We all need to hear
that. So he'll need to hearthat. Anything you've been
reading or watching lately, Gregrecommend.
Micha Boyett (53:04):
Oh, boy, what have I been reading? I just finished
reading Sarah besties fillednotes in the wilderness, which
is wonderful. Yes, I also, Ijust picked up Savannah
Guthrie's new book on faith. AndI have been pretty intrigued by
(53:25):
it. It's called mostly what Goddoes. Things I've been watching.
i This is this is not veryexciting. But my family is
watching old survivor to get outsurvivor episodes together. So
we just we've jumped around. Butthis is our fourth or fifth
season that we're watching. Butwe just got to season two. So
(53:48):
very exciting.
Joshua Johnson (53:50):
Nice. Isn't it great to have something to watch
as a family and walk throughthem. That's it's kind of fun
and
Micha Boyett (53:56):
people to yell out from the couch. Just yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Johnson (54:00):
That's good.
Well, Sarah besties book FieldNotes for the wilderness.
Fantastic. I love it. It isincredible. So that's really
good. And you know, I've heardmany good things about Savannah
Guthrie's books out, I reallywould be interested in checking
that out as well. Mike, thankyou so much for this
conversation. Where can peoplefind your book? How can people
(54:23):
get it and where would you liketo point people to?
Micha Boyett (54:28):
Yeah, you can find blessed or the rest of us really
at any bookseller, Amazon,Barnes and Noble that, I love to
go to that. What is itbookshop.com Where you can
support independent bookstores.
So yes, I would, I would lovefor people to pick it up. And I
(54:49):
think that right now Baker bookhouse is having 40% off of my
book. So if you're in that's mypublisher, if you want to go to
Baker book house and see if youcan grab it for on the cheap.
And in terms of finding me, I'mon Instagram at mica boy yet. I
also have an Instagram that isan advocacy account where we
(55:12):
talk about Down syndrome andautism. And that's with my son,
ace, ace faces my friend. Youcan also find me at the lucky
few podcast where we I, alongwith Heather, Avis and Mercedes,
Laura have a podcast about Downsyndrome advocacy. And then I
have a substack called the slowway. That is spiritual practices
Joshua Johnson (55:40):
is beautiful. Oh my god, thank you so much for
this conversation. Fantastic. Ireally want people to enter into
living within their limits theirlongings for what God can do
here on Earth, and then look atthe Beatitudes as our geography
as our place that we can enterinto that there is a posture
(56:00):
that we could take that we couldnot just follow the ways of
Jesus, but then we could also dowhat Jesus said and center, the
marginalized and get things backto the core of who we are to go
through that slow transformationprocess so that we could see all
people as beloved children ofGod and see their humanity no
(56:24):
matter what, whether it be thedisabled, or the marginalized in
other areas. So thank you micafor this conversation was
fantastic. I really enjoyed it.
Micha Boyett (56:35):
I'm delighted we could have it. Thank you,
Joshua. That's fun.
Part of the gift for me of having a child with
(00:05):
intellectual disability has beenjust that I have been forced
every day to reckon with theintrinsic ableism inside me that
has transformed the way I existin the world. But I think it has
the power to transform everybodyelse who is not with someone
(00:27):
with a disability daily. Butsome of that is just knowing
someone. Some of that is puttingyourself in a space where you
can encounter people whose livesare different than yours.
Joshua Johnson (00:53):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
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(01:15):
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Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
this podcast with your friends,your family, your network? Tell
them how much you enjoy it andlet them know that they should
be listening as well. If you'renew here, welcome. If you want
(01:37):
to dig deeper find us on socialmedia at shifting culture
podcast, where I post videoclips and quotes and interact
with all of you. Previous guestson the show have included Sarah
Bessie, Kayla Craig and Sharonhottie Miller. You can go back
listen to those episodes andmore. But today's guest is Micah
Boyet. In addition to bless herthe rest of us Michael Boyd is
(01:57):
the author of found a story ofquestions grace and everyday
prayer and a contributor to theNew York Times bestseller a
rhythm of prayer, edited bySarah Bessie. She is co host of
the award winning the lucky fewpodcast, creator of the slow way
podcast and newsletter and haswritten for publications such as
the Washington Post andChristianity today. In addition
(02:18):
to her work as a writer, she isa part time youth pastor at Good
Shepherd Church in New York Cityboy that lives with her husband
and their three sons in NewJersey. As we enter into this
conversation, Micah shares herstory of finding out her son ace
will be born with Down syndromein the subsequent years of
(02:38):
raising him. For her story, sheuses the framework of the
Beatitudes found in Jesus'ssermon on the mount as a way to
embrace the limits and longingsthat she has been given. We
talked about how the Beatitudeshelp redefine human worth and
value through Jesus's teachingsof blessing. The marginalized.
Micah discusses ableism grief,suffering spirituality following
(02:59):
Jesus by loving those on themargins, and living more slowly
in today's fast paced world. Sojoin us as we learn to embrace
our limits and longings so thatwe can enter the full life of
flourishing. Here's myconversation with Micah boy yet.
Well, Micah, welcome to shiftingculture. Really excited to have
(03:19):
you on thank you for joining me.
Micha Boyett (03:23):
You are so welcome. Thanks for having me,
Joshua.
Joshua Johnson (03:26):
Yeah, this book club, bless her. The rest of us
how limits and longing make uswhole is absolutely fantastic,
did an incredible job. And Iknow, you know, when I have
authors on, I know how much workgoes into these books and how
many years goes into it. And tohave it be birthed is quite an
(03:48):
accomplishment. But this onefeels very, very special. And to
bring in the Beatitudes, and tobring in what is our posture
like towards towards Jesus inthe midst of, of suffering and
difficulty and the ever day oflife? I think is fantastic. So
(04:09):
Well, Dad, good job so
Micha Boyett (04:11):
much. That is that just makes my heart flutter.
Thank you.
Joshua Johnson (04:17):
Yeah, of course.
You know, I would love to juststart out with your story as
you're have written a lot ofthis book as you're taking the
the Beatitudes as a framework asyou're walking through, but also
sharing a bit of your own storyas well in the midst of it. So
using your own story and theBeatitudes together. So take us
(04:38):
into that. Where does thisstart? Where does your story
start? And how does thatintersect with these blessings
of Jesus?
Micha Boyett (04:51):
Sure, yeah. So most of the story of this book
is about them, the birth and thelaw. I have my youngest son, I
have three boys. And nine yearsago, when I was pregnant with my
youngest, I had an experiencethat happens actually to a lot
(05:13):
of women, where you go in foryour ultrasound, and the doctor
comes in concerned and says,there is, there's a marker here
for Down syndrome, we think weshould test. Now this, I mean, I
had this happen to so manyfriends, in my, in my 10 years
where everybody was havingbabies, that I almost, like,
(05:36):
barely let myself think aboutit. I was sort of like, yep,
this happened to this person andthis person in this person,
everybody's fine. So I took ablood test. And two weeks later,
I picked up the phone when thegeneticists called me back. And
I was I mean, this shows you howmuch I was not concerned, I tend
(06:00):
I'm, I tend to worry a lot. Butsomehow there are things in my
life that I don't worry about atall, and which causes problems.
But I am walking to gymnasticsclass in San Francisco where I
lived, pushing my little toddlerin his stroller, and I pick up
the phone. And this stranger, Ididn't know, told me that the
(06:23):
child I was carrying had Downsyndrome would have Down
syndrome. And it was, you know,I think there's just those
moments in your life when youare like, here's, here's where
my life is going. And theneverything, everything stops,
the whole thing turns around,you start walking in different
(06:43):
direction. And that was whathappened for me. I had a real
season of, of grieving andtrying to understand what I was
grieving. I had been a personwho had grown up around people
(07:03):
with intellectual disability,and loved them. And I think that
also shocked me that I grievedthat, that I was not, like,
ready, set go with this newlife. That was the head God was
offering me. And then my son wasborn. And he went from being and
(07:25):
he remember the very moment, hewent from being a diagnosis that
I was terrified of, to being aperson I knew and loved. And it
was when I looked in his faceand said, Oh, it's you. It's
you, I know you. And, and thisbook is about, not necessarily
(07:50):
that season, of finding out thatmy son would have Down syndrome,
but all the seasons after oflearning how to, to live beside
him in this world, in a worldthat often doesn't want one him
in a world that often doesn'tmake space for him. That, that
(08:12):
is afraid of him. And, and as Istarted to enter into that world
with my eyes opened to whatpeople believed about my son, I
needed to redefine what Ibelieved about myself and about
my son. And I found, I found away forward in the Beatitudes, I
(08:36):
found Jesus setting up Hisentire ministry, and saying, who
matters most in the world. And,and I realized in the process,
that the way that I had thoughtI mattered was by what I did, by
what I achieved by how, howimpressively I showed up in the
(08:57):
world. And that in living thatway, and believing that way. I,
I was living opposite of how Iwanted the world to see my son.
So it was a transformation ofmyself to from a life of have
seen my worth, from what I didto see my worth from my
(09:20):
belovedness and from God'sdelight in my humanity.
Joshua Johnson (09:27):
Now that's the really most transformational
things that could ever happen tous as humans is moving from our
worth from what we do to who weare as a beloved child of God.
And how do how does theBeatitudes place us in that
place? How did you get that hopefrom saying oh, this is what
(09:51):
Jesus says about those who whosuffer and mourn and all of
these things, and that there'sthis the kingdom. How did that
how Have you realize yourbelovedness? And move away from
saying I am? Who what I do?
Micha Boyett (10:08):
That's a great question. I think as I began to
learn how to be aces, Mom aces,my youngest son, with Down
syndrome, I, I needed toredefine a lot of things. And
one of the things I needed todefine was what makes us human
in and I think that that processof working through that question
(10:31):
was a really deeply spiritualprocess for me. And I think I
knew, in my gut, that the waythat Jesus lived in the world,
was always pointing to the worthand value of my son. But I think
it took me a while to find theBeatitudes as my textbook for
(10:55):
for this, this new way of being.
Jesus gives His beatitudes twicein the gospels, once it's before
His Sermon on the Mount, whichis the longest recorded sermon
in, in the scriptures of Jesus,and His Sermon on the plane,
which is almost the same asexcept it takes place on a plane
(11:17):
instead of a mountain, which Ithink is really funny. And, you
know, some scholars think thatthis is, maybe like Jesus had a
few talks he gave, you know,like, maybe this is a talk he
gave in one place, and he gave atalk in the same in another
place, and they showed up alittle bit different each time.
But before he gets his sermon onthe mount, and this is takes
(11:40):
place at the start of hisministry, he almost has this
little poetry riff. And it'slike a poem when he gives his
Beatitudes, and you know, alittle about the background of
what he's doing there. This is aGreco Roman oratory tradition,
where speakers would stand up infront of people and say, I'm
(12:02):
going to tell you how to livethe good life, I'm going to tell
you how to be happy, and theywould start reciting how to be
happy. And it would be aboutvirtues, you know, like, do not
steal from your neighbor and bekeep your word. And you know,
all these things of like, yes,yes, yeah, that makes a person a
good person, you know, and Jesusstands up, takes this same
(12:27):
tradition that people would knowand recognize, and says, I'm
going to tell you how to livethe good life, I'm going to tell
you how to find true humanhappiness. And it, I'm going to
tell you that it belongs tothese people, it belongs to all
of you who are poor, or poor inspirit, it belongs to all of you
who are grieving, it belongs tothose of you who have no power,
(12:50):
or who give up your power. Itbelongs to you, who are showing
mercy to you who are longing forjustice, like this list of, not
not virtues, but lists of, ofpain list of the human
experience. And, you know,there's, we, we may not be
(13:12):
experiencing everything on thatlist, at at, at the same time in
our lives, but we will movethrough that list in different
ways, we will all grieves,hopefully, we will all be given
the chance to give up our powerfor the sake of another person,
hopefully, we will, we will liveout this longing for justice.
(13:33):
And the reason I found ace inthat was because I saw Jesus
centering the people who werenot being centered in the world,
and still centering those peoplethrough these words. This is a
poem that says, here's thepeople who who get to live the
life that God dreams of. Andit's all of you who don't think
(13:57):
you're living the life that thatyou dreamed of. There. It's this
incredible invitation that issometimes really confusing. But
I think also has the potentialto transform us. It
Joshua Johnson (14:14):
will transform us, it's been really beneficial
for for me as I've been walkingthrough those things. But as we
we look at the Beatitudes, oneof the things that you know,
even in the title of your book,blast the rest of us were
talking about that word blast alot of times it's it's just a
platitude of blessings. And wedon't really know what that
(14:38):
actually means. And I like thatyou use the Greek throughout
your your book to help us reframe and rethink what blessing
is and what being blessed means.
Can you reframe it for us sothat we know what this is? And
it's not just a really surfacelevel platitude that we give
each other Yeah,
Micha Boyett (15:00):
yeah, it actually is funny and a little bit
embarrassing to me that blast ispart of the title of I was gonna
say, Yeah, I promised myselflike 15 years ago, I would never
use the word again. There's, itis such a trite phrase, and like
(15:22):
this vaguely religious, youknow, quasi spiritual term that
people usually refer to, for,like getting a great parking
spot, and, and their kids makingstraight A's and never talking
back. And, you know, havingtheir team win the Super Bowl.
And I just the thing that hasalways driven me crazy about
(15:48):
this, that word, is just what itassumes about God, and what it
assumes about us. And it, it'sthis idea that, like, I'm going
to somehow be good enough thatGod is going to make my life
easier. And when we live thatway, and believe those things,
(16:12):
then when people come into ourlives, like my son, whose life
is not easy, but it's good andbeautiful. It is hard when you
have this view of blessing toknow what to do with that. I
also think there's like, no, no,I have, after ace was born, a
(16:35):
kind of experience two differentkinds of people, I experienced
the people who were concernedhim with, with his reality with
his existence, who were sorry,who were I actually had someone
asked me soon after he was born,just like, drop a drop off at
(16:57):
school, why I decided to keephim. And, and it is, you know, a
shock that people feelcomfortable saying that kind of
thing to my mom, but also reallyrevealing about the way that
people think about disability inour culture. So I had that
(17:18):
experience. And then I had thisopposite experience. That was
kind of like, the, the boomerson Facebook sending me memes
about how ace was an angelchain, how am I cared, it
inspires all, and there was alot of, I don't know, that made
me feel icky to i, it didn'tfeel right for, for me to hear
(17:42):
from people that they were sohappy that I had this angel baby
who was going to teach everyonehow to how to be happy. And, and
both things. Were denying Hishumanity, both the rejection or
seen him as a burden on society.
And the part that says he's anangel, like both were rejecting
the fact that he is actuallyfully human, and fully loved and
(18:06):
fully himself. And, and so Ithink that idea of blessing was
difficult for me when I came tothe Beatitudes. I, I really
loved the things Jesus wasblessing people for, but the
fact that he was blessing was,was concerning to me. And I had,
(18:29):
you know, I'm a Bible nerd. So Ihad a lot of fun researching and
just was delighted when I foundJonathan Pennington scholar,
scholarly work where he talksabout this, this word, and I'll
probably say it wrong, becauseI'm no Greek scholar. But it's
(18:52):
McElroy, and it is the it's,that's that's the plural,
singular is macarius. And it'sthe word that Jesus uses for
blessing. And we've translatedit blessed. But it would be a
more accurate translation,probably to say something like,
(19:19):
true human happiness, or theflourishing life, or wholeness.
And now, and that felt reallyimportant to me to single in on
that, that what we think ofblessing is, is not what Jesus
was intending in this poem. He'sintending to tell us what it
(19:39):
means to find the really realthe, the true thing underneath
the surface of how we live andand that that is what true human
happiness and flourishing lookslike.
Joshua Johnson (19:56):
And we just blew by really quickly really real,
but you're taught, and also thedream of God, some of the things
that you've helped you redefinewhat the kingdom of God is, is
that you know, as God's dreamfor the world, that's what is
really real. Beyond the facadeof this fallen world that we
(20:17):
live in, at sea, what is the thekingdom? And I think that's
helpful for us as we're walkingin, what does it look like to
have flourishing? So as you'renow entering into the space
where you have your son, and youhave ace, and he is on, on the
margins on the outside ofsociety, as you said, there's,
(20:39):
there's two reactions to thishuman life that you have with
you, the sun that you have thatyou love, that is fully human?
How do we move from seeingpeople as marginalized to
actually then centering themarginalized? How do we get to
(21:00):
that posture of moving towardscentering, instead of seeing
people as other and other endpeople? Yeah. And
Micha Boyett (21:13):
I, I, in part of this podcast, with two other
women who are also moms of kidsin in the Down Syndrome space,
and we we talk about every week,that our goal is to shift
narratives, and to shout theworst of people living with Down
syndrome. And that is a reallycomplicated thing to do.
(21:38):
Because, you know, I think Ireferred briefly to ableism. But
it ableism is deep in us, and ithas not, you know, I think as,
as a culture, we have been, likea lot has been revealed in, in
(21:59):
the last 20 years about theprejudices we hold. And, and
thankfully, there's greatconversation happening around
race. And there's not as muchconversation happening around
the prejudice that we all carrywith us, when it comes to people
(22:19):
who are living with disability.
And in my experience, of, ofloving someone with disability,
its intellectual disability.
And, you know, when I talkedabout my seen my value and my
worth as, as based on what Icould do, even in my
relationship with God, of howcould I please God? How could I
(22:43):
be the right person, even thatview of life is an ableist
framework. It's this way ofseeing our ourselves as only
worthy because what we can do,and then when we encounter
people who can't do what we cando, we don't we don't know how
(23:04):
to respond. It's scary to us,because we have lived our lives,
finding our value value in thisvery particular way of being
alive. And yeah, I think part ofthe gift for me of having a
child with an intellectualdisability has been just that I
(23:30):
have been forced every day toreckon with the intrinsic
ableism inside me, that hastransformed the way I exist in
the world. But I think it hasthe power to transform everybody
else who is not with someonewith a disability daily. But
(23:50):
some of that is just knowingsomeone, some of that is putting
yourself in a space where youcan encounter people whose lives
are different than yours. I havea down the street, we just
happened we moved three yearsago to New Jersey. And we
happened to move into a housewhere a block away, there is a
(24:13):
home of people with and withoutdisabilities living together.
And it's it's called co home.
And it's this inclusive livingsituation. And one of the things
the founder talks about is thatin most things, what most of
what we think of as group homeswhere people adults with
disability, are livingindependently or living with
(24:35):
caregivers is those group homesor on the outskirts of town.
There, you have to, you know,everybody piles into a van and
drive somewhere to go, you know,experience an event or whatever.
And people don't typical peoplerarely run into people with
(24:56):
disability because people withdisability are living on the
outskirts of town, people withdisability are going to specific
work spaces that are not in theheart of the community. And one
of the things that CO homewanted to do was put a house
right in the middle of thehistoric district of my town,
(25:17):
walking distance to the coffeeshop and walking distance to the
grocery store. And for forpeople with disability, to be
front and center, to be seen, tobe valued as members of the
community. And I think that isthe kind of, of thing that
changes all of us. People withdisability are marginal,
(25:41):
marginalized, because those ofus without disability are not
seeking them out. And there areso many people, if you don't
know anyone with a disability,it's because you're not looking.
And you're not centering themyet. But start centering. And,
and you'll see him Yes,
Joshua Johnson (26:03):
as you go, and just to be able to, to be next
to people to see them for whothey are, their humanity, it
changes us all right, that Ithink any of these conversations
that we have have even politicalarguments of you know, this,
whatever it is, whether it beimmigration, or race or
(26:26):
disability, whatever it is, oncewe have relationship with
people, and we see them when weknow them, and we're involved in
proximate space with them, itchanges us. And so we have to
get outside of ourselves, and wehave to move towards something
different. And the thing youknow, when I lived in the Middle
(26:48):
East, it shocked me how, howmuch behind the century and the
disabled, they are even in theMiddle East, right, that all all
the disabled are hidden away inpeople's homes. And they are
just left in corners. It's it'svery, very sad, of what is
(27:09):
happening. And there's a longways that we have to go in
America to be able to do thatand move people forward to see
people for for who they are.
And, man, it's, it's a necessarything. You know, one of the
things you talked about brieflyas the beginning when you were
with a sudden you realize thathe is going to have Down
(27:33):
syndrome, and you got that call,and you started to grieve, and
you didn't know why you'regrieving or what you are
craving, because you still havethis this person. And sometimes
we grieve, you know, a loss ofsomething that we never had. One
of the things you say in yourchapter on grief and the
Beatitudes, you know, blessedare those who grieve. And you,
(27:54):
you have it here they will beinvited to a divine banquet. And
I want to just want to readthis, it says the invitation to
the banquet of grief throws openthe doors of suffering, to
reveal the kind of flourishingknown only to those who have
gone out with weeping andstepped back through with shouts
of joy. How is that possible towalk through we've been
(28:17):
suffering and stepping back inwith shouts of joy.
Micha Boyett (28:23):
Mom, I love that.
I love that question. In thebook, I write about grieving,
the pregnancy that I thought Iwas going to have, right, the
child that I thought I was goingto have. In the process of
writing the book, I lost my dad,to just, you know, a horrible
brain cancer that came quicklyand painfully. And I think what
(28:44):
I've learned about grief in thatprocess has been that you don't,
you don't walk out the door withgrease, and then leave it
outside and then come back andreach out to joy. You you go out
the door with grief. And whatyou gather is you you gather
(29:07):
that into the the shouts of joyare gathered in the same arms as
the arms where you're stillcarrying the grief. The grief
doesn't go away. Especially ifthe grief is a relationship that
you don't get to have in personanymore. Like losing my dad. I
grieve because I love my dad.
(29:29):
And I don't get to have him withme. So I don't leave that
behind. But I find in the personof Jesus and in the restoration,
that that the hope we have givesus that we we can walk a path
that brings us back to Joy, thatjoy can walk along with us. I
(29:52):
think it's a mystery. And Ithink joy is a mystery to and I
think the gift of our faith Isthat we aren't asked to put down
one for the other, that we getto hold them together. And it's
in the same way as I feel aboutmy, my life of raising ace,
(30:13):
there's a lot that I longed for,for him. And in this book, I
talk, I talk a lot aboutlonging. I, I want life to be
easier for him. I have grievedseveral things along the way in
his life. And the thing that Ihave cried the most for, is the
speech that has never come forhim. And that he is still unable
(30:38):
to talk unable to say, to callme Mama. And that doesn't mean I
don't find utter delight in him.
I was just with with him attherapy this morning. And his
therapist, he, he was supposedto it was like physical therapy.
So he's supposed to be gettinglike a massage and these places,
and he just kept sitting back upand hugging her, just like, you
(31:02):
know, just like, attacking herwith hugs. And she's like, Ah, I
really got to rub your backhere. And, and that is like, my
life is full of that joy ofknowing him and what he has to
offer the world. And the griefis still there. It's still hard.
I have a friend, Heather Avis,who does the lucky few podcasts
(31:26):
with me. And she says she alwayssays hard is not bad. It's just
hard. And I think that's good.
It
Joshua Johnson (31:34):
is good. We just lost my mother in law. You know,
she's lived with us for lastseven years. And so she passed
away, you know, at the end ofJanuary. And you know, that's
the I have a six year old son.
He's only known, you know, ahome with his grandma living
with a mountain. She's gone. Andso is that it is? It's heavy
right now. So that's, you know,that's why I'm entering into
(31:57):
that grief place of like, ourcat cheese us are the ones that
grieve. Are we really blessed weactually get the the joy on
that. On the other end? Is itwrapped together? Is that
possible? Or are we just, youknow, in the midst of a vacant
space where our home feelsempty? And what? So is he there?
(32:18):
Is he going to meet us in theplace of grief? Are we truly
blessed? Is that true? That's Imean, those are the questions.
Ya know, you asked me whenyou're actually suffering and
when you're grieving, and whenit's not going. Right and
correct. But I know that I'veseen people who have suffered
(32:43):
the most become the most joyfulpeople that I know. And why do
you think people who suffer welland cling to Jesus in the midst
of suffering, have joy? Richard
Micha Boyett (33:00):
Rohr somewhere, talks about it, he took for us
to picture a circle asourselves. And there's like the
core of us, straight in themiddle of the bullseye in the
middle of that circle. And a lotof our lives we live on the
edges. And, you know, part ofthat is how we as humans, learn
(33:22):
how to survive in the world, weneed to live on the edges, the
surface of our lives, so that wecan get the things done that we
need to get done on ourchecklists, so that we can feed
the people and clean the houseand get the get our jobs done.
And, and it also is how we learnto survive in a world with
people. That the surface is howwe say, I'm fine, are you and
(33:48):
you know, there's we just, wemostly live our lives there. And
the invitation of Jesus is tomove from those edges to the
core. And I think one of thethings that is so beautiful
about the Beatitudes is thatJesus is is sort of dividing the
(34:09):
Beatitudes into this idea of ourlimits, and our longings, the
things that we dream of forourselves and the people we
love, and the things that weknow, we're limited in, limited
by our whether it's our griefthat's limited us or our power
or our ability. I think that thelimits and the longings of our
(34:34):
lives are the way we can move tothe core. I think they're kind
of like these little arrows thatare showing up on the edges
inviting us to ride them down tothe middle. I think that what
Jesus does, when we talk aboutin our suffering, in our sadness
(34:55):
in our pain, that we're findinghope is that that there are
these opportunities to ridethat, that limit to write that
longing down to the core of whowe are. And, and this some kind
of mysterious alchemy thathappens when, when we are honest
(35:18):
about those things. And when welong for hope, and we long for
joy, and we let, let it playout, because God works in a
slow, slow way. But in thatprocess, the transformation is
happening in the core, and noton the edges of us. So that when
(35:41):
it finally rises out, it risesfrom a place of, of wholeness
and not surface level. You know,we're not talking about the
person who paints on a happyface to appear to be like, like
satisfied in Jesus. Yeah, we'retalking about real
transformation inside that leaksout.
Joshua Johnson (36:03):
And that's why I love at the end of this sermon
on the mount, as he goes, hetells the parable of the wise
and foolish builder, it's abouthearing the words of Jesus and
putting them into practice,that's gonna build your house on
the rock, so that when all ofthis happens, because the storms
will come, either your house isgoing to crash, because you were
foolish, and you didn't actuallyput the words of Jesus in
(36:25):
practice, or you're wise, andyou actually did and your house
is gonna stand when the stormscome. And you could actually
weather those storms with Jesus,because of the practice of this.
And what one of the things thatyou wrote, as what Gregory Boyle
says about the Beatitudes,they're not just a spirituality,
(36:46):
it's not it's more about ageography is, how do we place
ourselves in the geography ofthe Beatitudes? And what does
that? What does that mean? Andwhat does that look like to
place ourselves in, in a place,and not just an A, and I thought
of this as a good, goodplatitude.
Micha Boyett (37:06):
I think the call of a follower of Jesus is to go
toward to move toward those whoare living in the spaces of the
Beatitudes. So, if, if we arefollowing Jesus, then we're
(37:26):
following Jesus toward the poorand spirit. We're following
Jesus, toward those who areliving with injustice. We're
following Jesus toward thegrieving. And I think that looks
different in all of our lives.
But I think we know as werecognize who we are, where we
are, what we, what we are giftedin, we know what it might look
(37:51):
like for us to move towardsthose who are experiencing
poverty, who, who need toreceive mercy. Yeah, it's a
geography because it's thegeography of humanity. And we're
invited, just like, just likeJesus invited the people who
(38:15):
were sitting in front of himwhen he gave the sermon. We're
inviting people to wholeness.
Joshua Johnson (38:21):
So for us, what does that look like? I know, you
talk about that, practically,for what that looked like for
you, at your church in SanFrancisco, while you're on elder
boards, and trying to beinclusive of the LGBTQ plus
community, that you there aresome some practical ways of
(38:42):
actually centering those on themargins, right, that you say we,
we should do this as a church.
How do we, when it's difficult,and it's hard, and there's
opposition and people that youknow that there's going, it's
not always going to go perfectlyin every sphere of what you're
(39:04):
doing? How do we enter into itand actually enter into the
place of going towards those andsay, Hey, we, you are loved,
you're a child of God. And we'rehere with you. How can we do
that?
Micha Boyett (39:25):
Yeah, the the story that I tell in my chapter
on peacemaking is about thisseason of my life when I was on
the board at my church, and wewere making a decision to become
a church that was affirming tothe LGBT t q plus community. And
(39:48):
that was the that was themessiest thing I've ever been
part of. It was the end as mostchurch pain, it goes as much
which most things when the, thechurch that you love is in
turmoil. It is the church is alot of humans, trying to figure
(40:11):
out what it means to love God.
And we can come to differentconclusions. And to me, my
calling in that moment and stillwas to be an ally, to the queer
community, to be part of achurch that wasn't afraid to
risk how people maybe risk whatpeople thought about the way we
(40:37):
were reading scripture. Risk,what, what the assumptions are.
And, and to do that, for thesake of those who have been
clobbered by the church, theLGBTQ community that has been
rejected, kicked out unwanted,has been told that God doesn't
(41:02):
love them. And in, in makingthis change in my church, it
wasn't that the people whodisagreed with me, were hateful,
it was that we were readingscripture in a different way.
And but that was choosing toread scripture in a different
way is a very painful thing tohappen to a community. And, and
(41:24):
it was also a gift for me,because I, I got to suffer in a
way that that I don't think Iwould have suffered if I hadn't
been leading through that. And,and it gave me a taste of what
my LGBTQ siblings have gonethrough just a little, a little
(41:48):
tiny taste, because I know, Idon't know what that experience
is like, but I experienced a lotof rage. There was a lot of
pain, and all that to say thatwhen we are in the church, when
we are following Jesus, it'sgoing to be messy, it's always
(42:13):
going to be messy. I learnedfrom Professor 20 years ago,
that when we read the Bible, weput on Jesus glasses, and we
read it through the lens ofJesus. And in that transformed
me, and also it made life a lotmessier. In and that's a gift
(42:36):
that's a gift, there's, there'sstill a lot of pain that that
exists from that falling apartof my church community. But
also, I say falling apart. Alsothat church community is a
beautiful, vibrant thing thatlooks really different now. And
(42:57):
that is beautiful, too. And so Ithink Jesus does a lot of things
that are messy and beautiful,painful and joyful, all the
things at once.
Joshua Johnson (43:09):
I mean, that's helpful for us to figure out
what, like, we want to find away to be faithfully like Jesus
to embody Jesus, in all the wayto what does it look like, you
know, for me, because I have alot of Arab Muslim friends like
my, my centering, especially inAmerica, is for the Arab Muslims
(43:32):
and immigrants, refugees to beseen and known and sad that they
are beloved children of God, aswell. Because we all we all have
some sort of enemies for somereason. And so whether it be
immigrants, whether it be LGBT,q plus people, whether it be ace
(43:54):
that has Down syndrome, what,how to we have the the eyes of
Jesus in those situations andcircumstances. And I think that,
that you're right, it is thebelovedness of all of us. And
every human that has existed,that our beloved children of
(44:15):
God, that will change the waythat we see humanity all around
us. And it'll change the way weinteract in the world. And we
love and we love others. Well,there's, there's something to
say, you know, at the end, youknow, for me, the Beatitudes
themselves have been a goodposture. I have come into a
(44:37):
place of we're thinking aboutthe things that we do for Jesus
as like Jesus has called us toobey His commands, so we're
doing things for him. TheBeatitudes for me, helped me
like this is the posture of whoI am in the midst of that. Yeah,
but I have limits and longlongings and I could have this
posture so I could walk into it.
What it looks like to followJesus. Because this posture, I
(45:01):
think, marks Cantor, it reallyhelped me in that as like, yes,
he helped me with the posturesthat I could take with the
Beatitudes, the end of yourbook, I want to read something
to you like, man, I'vehighlighted a lot in your
buttons. To think that's one ofthe ads we who follow Jesus may
(45:24):
never transform the whole storyof the world into one in which
all justice is restorative. Andall people have access to
health, community and joy. Butwe could follow Jesus towards
that end, living with the hopethat all things will be made
new. How do we long for hope,when we know that we're only
(45:45):
going to get partial justice,here on this earth,
Micha Boyett (45:52):
I think we, as a culture, live in a time where we
have seen so much change soquickly in terms of technology,
and the way the way humans existwith each other. That are, we
who are alive right now, don'tmove according to natural time.
(46:16):
Like we, we live in analternative time, we live in a
time machine, that is justspeeding and speeding and
speeding and speeding. And oneof the reasons I love the, like
reading the ancients reading thereading what the saints have
written over the past 2000 yearsis that I'm, I'm allowed to see
(46:42):
faith, from the perspective ofsomeone who lived in a really
different world than I live in.
And one of the things that wesee is this, just this slower
way of being in the world. And Ithink that if we were in the
natural world more, if we paidattention to the way that I'm
thinking right now of thedaffodils that are popping up in
(47:04):
my backyard, the way that plantsgrow and bloom and, and go back
to the earth, and their seeds,like, you know, go back into the
ground and the next thing comesup. And it's a regenerative
restorative world, in the midstof death and pain, some of what
(47:29):
it means to believe that God ismaking all things new and will
be making all things new, is tolive in that slower perspective,
to step back from the way thatthat we exist with our
technology and speed and our todo lists and receive that the
work of God is happening and thework of God will keep happening.
(47:55):
And we will be here for a bit.
And we are invited to our tasksat the moment, were invited to
long for justice, were invitedto show mercy were invited to to
be misunderstood for doing good.
And because we're because wewere not going to be here that
(48:16):
long. We can kind of let go ofhaving to see everything change
all at once. But believe thatit's changing and it will. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (48:26):
that's good. My wife has been quoting this.
There's a quote from MarshallMcLuhan back in the 80s. She's
been quoting this to me a lotlately. He says the greatest
discovery of the 21st centurywill be the discovery that man
was not meant to live at thespeed of light. And, and I
think, yeah, I think he's right.
This is not the way that we'remeant to live. We're, we're
(48:48):
meant to go, as you said, from,from the edges into the core of
who we are, and that's this low,transformative work into the
image and likeness of Jesus overover time. That these limits
these longings that we have willstart to shape us and form us
into what it looks like tofollow Jesus, what it looks like
(49:11):
to be like Jesus to embody himin the world that these are
things that are good for us. Isthere a limit in your life that
you thank God for now?
Micha Boyett (49:25):
I mean, the first thing that comes to mind with my
limits, maybe I'm learning tothank God for I had for gosh,
four years ago, 2019 asa and Ifell down the stairs together.
Outside of his school, he ran atme for a hug, and I went back
and I was able to save hislittle head, but my head took it
(49:49):
and I had about six to ninemonths of trying to recover from
this concussion and then I wouldbang my head again. It was like
I had no spatial awareness. And,and it has turned into pretty
terrible chronic migraines. AndI spend a lot of my life
(50:10):
managing that, you know, takingpreventative medications going
to whichever helpful, likedoctor is going to help next.
And that has been a limit thatI'm still trying to make peace
with. I, I ended up in bed, morethan I want to be in bed, I
(50:33):
ended up being the mom who waslike, Mom can help the sumo
honey Mama's has to stay betterI'm, and still, when I am laying
in my bed and pain. Every oncein a while, I get this spark of
this as a gift. And I'm learninghow to rest after a lifetime of
(50:57):
thinking that I needed to learnhow to rest. And you know,
sometimes we are forced into it.
And that doesn't mean it's easy.
It doesn't mean it's fun. Itdoesn't mean it's even great for
my family. But I am learningsomething. And I think even if I
continue to have this, kind ofhave these kinds of migraines
(51:21):
and spend time in my bed for therest of my life. I think I'll
get there as being grateful. Doyou think I will?
Joshua Johnson (51:31):
Yeah. Hope so.
We long for that place ofgratefulness. Yeah. Miko, what's
one hope you have your readersthat people that read your book,
Micha Boyett (51:43):
I hope that my readers who, you know, I hope
they come to this, whether theyconnect with disability or
connect with parenting orconnect with the things that I'm
talking about that they wouldfind in the Beatitudes,
something fresh and alive, thatthat they haven't found in their
(52:05):
faith. So far, I really wantpeople to ask the question of
what it means to be whole, andwhat it means to be moving
towards wholeness. And I thinkthat's my hope that, that that
question is being asked, andthat question is leading to
other questions. It is not socomplicated. And even as it is
(52:29):
really mysterious,
Joshua Johnson (52:31):
I have a couple quick questions. If you could go
back to your 21 year old self,what advice would you give? I
Micha Boyett (52:37):
would tell my 21 year old self that God isn't mad
at her that she is deeply loved.
And there's nothing more thatshe has to do to earn that love.
Joshua Johnson (52:52):
Beautiful, beautiful. We all need to hear
that. So he'll need to hearthat. Anything you've been
reading or watching lately, Gregrecommend.
Micha Boyett (53:04):
Oh, boy, what have I been reading? I just finished
reading Sarah besties fillednotes in the wilderness, which
is wonderful. Yes, I also, Ijust picked up Savannah
Guthrie's new book on faith. AndI have been pretty intrigued by
(53:25):
it. It's called mostly what Goddoes. Things I've been watching.
i This is this is not veryexciting. But my family is
watching old survivor to get outsurvivor episodes together. So
we just we've jumped around. Butthis is our fourth or fifth
season that we're watching. Butwe just got to season two. So
(53:48):
very exciting.
Joshua Johnson (53:50):
Nice. Isn't it great to have something to watch
as a family and walk throughthem. That's it's kind of fun
and
Micha Boyett (53:56):
people to yell out from the couch. Just yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Johnson (54:00):
That's good.
Well, Sarah besties book FieldNotes for the wilderness.
Fantastic. I love it. It isincredible. So that's really
good. And you know, I've heardmany good things about Savannah
Guthrie's books out, I reallywould be interested in checking
that out as well. Mike, thankyou so much for this
conversation. Where can peoplefind your book? How can people
(54:23):
get it and where would you liketo point people to?
Micha Boyett (54:28):
Yeah, you can find blessed or the rest of us really
at any bookseller, Amazon,Barnes and Noble that, I love to
go to that. What is itbookshop.com Where you can
support independent bookstores.
So yes, I would, I would lovefor people to pick it up. And I
(54:49):
think that right now Baker bookhouse is having 40% off of my
book. So if you're in that's mypublisher, if you want to go to
Baker book house and see if youcan grab it for on the cheap.
And in terms of finding me, I'mon Instagram at mica boy yet. I
also have an Instagram that isan advocacy account where we
(55:12):
talk about Down syndrome andautism. And that's with my son,
ace, ace faces my friend. Youcan also find me at the lucky
few podcast where we I, alongwith Heather, Avis and Mercedes,
Laura have a podcast about Downsyndrome advocacy. And then I
have a substack called the slowway. That is spiritual practices
Joshua Johnson (55:40):
is beautiful. Oh my god, thank you so much for
this conversation. Fantastic. Ireally want people to enter into
living within their limits theirlongings for what God can do
here on Earth, and then look atthe Beatitudes as our geography
as our place that we can enterinto that there is a posture
(56:00):
that we could take that we couldnot just follow the ways of
Jesus, but then we could also dowhat Jesus said and center, the
marginalized and get things backto the core of who we are to go
through that slow transformationprocess so that we could see all
people as beloved children ofGod and see their humanity no
(56:24):
matter what, whether it be thedisabled, or the marginalized in
other areas. So thank you micafor this conversation was
fantastic. I really enjoyed it.
Micha Boyett (56:35):
I'm delighted we could have it. Thank you,
Joshua. That's fun.
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