April 12, 2024 • 47 mins
What does spiritual formation have to do with our political engagement? Well, if we are followers of Jesus, it’s has a lot to do with it. In this episode, Michael Wear discusses how Dallas Willard's work influenced his view that Christians should approach politics as a way to love God and love their neighbor through civic involvement. We talk about different approaches to political engagement, the role of the church, and stories like Ruby Bridges that demonstrate living out one's faith even in challenging political contexts. Michael hopes that Christians will be empowered to steward their influence in politics in a way that is motivated by spiritual virtues like gentleness and is coherent with their broader discipleship and not just enter into a competition with an antagonizing spirit. So join us as we enter into an all of life spiritual formation into the image and likeness of Jesus, so that our political life looks more like Him and less like an antagonizing sport.
Micheal Wear is founder, president, and CEO of the Center for Christianity and Public Life, a nonpartisan, nonprofit institution based in the nation's capital with the mission to contend for the credibility of Christian resources in public life, for the public good. He has served as a trusted resource and advisor for a range of civic leaders on matters of faith and public life for the last fifteen years, including as a White House and presidential campaign staffer. Wear previously led Public Square Strategies, a consulting firm he founded that helps religious organizations, political organizations, businesses and others effectively navigate the rapidly changing American religious and political landscape. He is the author of "The Spirit of Our Politics: Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life," which argues that the kind of people we are has much to do with the kind of politics and public life we will have.
Michael's Book:
The Spirit of Our Politics
Michael's Recommendation:
Fully Alive by Elizabeth Oldfield
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Wear (00:00):
Should politics gets treated as this sort of
(00:03):
area of life that sort of cordoncordoned off from God
quarantined from God. And insome ways, it's, in some ways
people treat it as if it's theonly real thing, sort of, what
am I going to do if my sideloses politically, I need to I
need to do whatever I can tosecure my political objectives.
(00:27):
You know, that, that that'sreally the real thing. And then
I'll get back to trying to bespiritual and all these things,
but but it's really importantthat we don't lose politically.
And so anything can sort of bejustified in service of that, in
another way. People treatpolitics like it's not real at
all. But what I argue in thebook is that there is no
(00:47):
political you. There's just you.
If you are the kind of personwho will lie in a political
argument to get your way. Youare that kind of person.
Joshua Johnson (01:13):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
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(01:34):
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Thank you so much. You know italso would help us out. share
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Tell them how much you enjoy itand let them know that they
should be listening as well. Ifyou're new here, welcome. If you
(01:58):
want to dig deeper find us onsocial media at shifting culture
podcast, where I post videoclips and quotes and interact
with all of you. Previous guestson the show have included
Caitlin chests, Sky chottani andAndrew Whitehead. You can go
back and listen to thoseepisodes and more. But today's
guest is Michael ware. Michaelware is founder president and
(02:19):
CEO for the Center forChristianity and public life, a
nonpartisan, nonprofitinstitution based in the
nation's capital with a missionto contend for the credibility
of Christian resources in publiclife for the public good. He has
served as a trusted resource andadvisor for a range of civic
leaders on matters of faith andpublic life. For the last 15
(02:40):
years, including as a WhiteHouse and presidential campaign
staffer were previously led thepublic square strategies a
consulting firm he founded thathelps religious organizations,
political organizations,businesses and others
effectively navigate the rapidlychanging American religious and
political landscape. He's theauthor of the spirit of our
politics, spiritual formation,and the renovation of public
(03:03):
life, which are used at the kindof people we are as much to do
with the kind of politics andpublic life we will have. So
what does spiritual formationhave to do with our political
engagement? Well, if we arefollowers of Jesus has a lot to
do with it. In this episode,Michael ware discusses how
Dallas Willards work influencedhis view that Christians should
(03:26):
approach politics as a way tolove God and love their neighbor
through civic involvement. Wetalked about different
approaches to politicalengagement, the role of the
church and stories like RubyBridges that demonstrate living
out one's faith even inchallenging political contexts.
Michael hopes that Christianswill be empowered to steward
(03:46):
their influence in politics in away that is motivated by
spiritual virtues likegentleness, and as coherent with
their broader discipleship, andnot just enter into a
competition with an antagonizingspirit. So, join us as we enter
into an all of life, spiritualformation into the image and
likeness of Jesus so that ourpolitical life looks more like
(04:09):
him, and less like inantagonizing sports, here is my
conversation with Michael ware.
Michael, welcome to shiftingculture. Really excited to have
you on thank you so much forjoining me.
Michael Wear (04:22):
So good to be with you. Thanks for having me on.
Joshua Johnson (04:25):
Yeah, I'd love you know, as you're writing the
spirit of our politics, you haveyour new nonprofits, you're
walking into this new electioncycle here and 2020 fours, we're
talking about spiritualformation politics. I want to
know where spiritual formationand politics is intersected
within your own life. And whatwas that like for you? So
Michael Wear (04:47):
I mean, just as a bit of background, I became a
Christian when I was 15 afterreading Romans and went to DC to
the vocational question of mylife as Ben, what's It means to
be faithful in and with publicthings that led me to DC ended
up working in, in a campaign andthen the White House. And when I
(05:13):
got the White House shop, Ithought this is gonna be, this
is gonna be a disaster for myspiritual life, because I was
going to be working 16 hourdays, yes, amazing. And it
actually turned out to be a timeof tremendous flourishing for a
number of reasons. One, thestructure around my days, and
(05:34):
the time constraints and thefact that, you know, I knew if I
wasn't getting scripture in onthe metro ride into the office,
like it was not going to happen,it wasn't sort of like college
where, well, I have a three hourgap between classes, you know,
this afternoon, you know, like,there, there was no gap in my
schedule later in the day. Andso I probably read more
(05:58):
Scripture than I had, at anypoint in my life up to that
point, when I was at the WhiteHouse. The other thing was, I
had the opportunity to work insomething called the Office of
faith based and NeighborhoodPartnerships, which meant that I
was working every day withpastors, nonprofits that were
(06:19):
serving those in need. And Idon't think I've been ever been
prayed for as much as the thosethose three and a half years in
the White House. And so, youknow, prayer, scripture reading,
these things do not amounts tospiritual formation, they are
(06:41):
practices that God can use forspiritual formation, which
refers refers to the process bywhich the inner process by which
our character, our will takes ona specific kind of shape. And
Christian spiritual formation isentirely directed and focused on
(07:05):
Jesus. And, you know, I've seenI've seen that in in my own
life. And to my surprise, it wassort of when I was most in the
thick of things, that that, thatit was a time of tremendous
formation for me.
Joshua Johnson (07:22):
Where did Dallas Willard come into the picture?
For you? You know, this wholebook is based on Willard Yan,
you know, through the lens ofwhat he has written. So, how did
you get connected with withDallas Willards writing? And how
did that shape your thinking,
Michael Wear (07:40):
someone sent a copy of the Divine conspiracy to
my office, pretty soon after Istarted at the White House. And
I thought, this is a mean trick,who has time to read this 300
Page dance? You
Joshua Johnson (07:55):
know, that's, that's it's not to get through,
but it's so good.
Michael Wear (08:00):
The author, the about the author was like, you
know, he was a, you know, taughtphilosophy at University of
Southern California, like, whohas, and thankfully, my pastor
back home and buffalo, who, youknow, wasn't a big sort of
public writer or anything. Hehappened to post something,
(08:20):
recommending this book, and Ithought, well, if it got sent to
me by someone I respected and mypastor back home was telling me
I should read it, I shouldprobably pick this up. And it
was like a second spiritualawakening in my life. So So just
as context for for yourlisteners, as I sort of alluded
to, or mentioned, you know,Willard was, so he passed about
(08:43):
a decade ago, he taughtphilosophy at the University of
Southern California for almost50 years. At for a time, he was
chair of the philosophydepartment, he also served at
various points during his lifeas a pastor, author of many
books, and and a Christianteacher. Yeah, there's so much
(09:07):
that could be could be said, butmy own personal life and
trajectory has been profoundlyimpacted by his work and it his
approach to the teachings ofJesus and the way that he opens
up scripture. And thenobviously, in this book is a
testament to this as well as, asreally impacted my my
(09:29):
perspective on politics inpublic life and public
questions. And so the book is,we do not hide the ball in the
book, it's very clear. RoleWillard plays out from his idea
of Gospels of sin management andthe disappearance of moral
knowledge into his conception ofspiritual formation. This book
(09:53):
is in large part, an applicationof Willards ideas As in the
political and realm of publiclife, I would say readers don't
have to be familiar with Willardin order to read the book,
though I certainly hope my bookwill lead will lead people to
read Willard. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (10:14):
I think it'd be be great to go down that path.
And one of the things that hedoes and I think, was shaped me
for a long time as his, youknow, curriculum for Christ's
likeness and figuring out whatdoes it look like to, to
actually have things in yourlife to look more like Jesus, I
with Christians that I know,when it comes to engaging in
(10:34):
politics, there's really a fewdifferent ways that that
Christians, I know, engage, oneis almost Dominionism, like, we
want to control politics so thatwe could have the power to enact
whatever we want to get thingsdone. So, you know, at the
beginning, maybe there maybethey think what they have is
(10:55):
good, so to help everybody, butit's really about, you know,
taking control and power.
Another way a Christians reallyengage politics is not to engage
politics, because it looks sonasty and horrible, I don't want
to get involved. And then I knowsome Christians who really are
trying to be faithful to Jesusand say, what does it look like
(11:16):
to follow Jesus being engaged ina civic life? And primarily,
what they do is, is local civicengagement where we could
actually have something happen.
You know, I got my master's insocial and civic
entrepreneurship. And, you know,for me, I the social aspect was
(11:39):
like, this seems easier for me.
So I'm, you know, I directed anonprofit, I'm engaged in trying
to help impact the worlds andpositive ways. But it was really
harder for me to see how do I dothat in the political sphere? So
in that, what is it a faithfulway to follow Jesus and engage
(12:00):
in politics? The
Michael Wear (12:05):
more specific you get, I think the, the less that
we should say with short ofinvoking faithfulness, as, as as
synonymous with a particularapproach. In the book, I advance
political engagement that isdone in the spirit of loving
(12:28):
service. I believe Christiansshould approach politics as an
essential forum in which theycan love their neighbors will
their good. And I think thatcould that could take shape in a
whole number of ways. And Ithink different people have
different sort of callings, whatI what I will say is that, if
(12:49):
you are a citizen in America, orin a in a Democratic
Representative system ofgovernment, you do not choose to
have political influence youalready habits. And so the
decision to make is how tosteward the influence that you
have already been given.
Discipleship is about learningfrom Jesus, how he would live
your life if he was you. AndWillard talks about this idea
(13:11):
that Willards definition of ofKingdom is the range of your
effective will. So God's kingdomis the range of his effective
well, where what he wants doneis done. But Willard says, we
all have our own sort of littlekingdom, so to speak, where that
represent the range of oureffective will, where will we
(13:32):
mark down his time, and politicsis one of those areas where that
is within the range of oureffective will. And so we want
to, we want to steward that in away that is consistent with the
broader calling that God has onour life to love God and love
our neighbor. I think politicsis really tricky for folks, but
(13:53):
in ways that could beinstructive and actually could
be really contributed to, again,the the broader life that we're
living with God, one of thetricky aspects of politics is
that it is mediated andcontingent. And you have so
little control over the outcomesof politics, it can be sometimes
(14:19):
impossible to know if what youput in is actually making a
difference. And even if it does,it's can be very difficult to
take credit for it because it'snot it's not, it's not evident,
often that it was it was yourinput that made the difference.
These can be very difficultthings. They can also be really
(14:43):
instructive. If we actuallyshould be more aware of how
little control we have overoutcomes in other areas of our
life, and I think there's greatdanger in a spirituality have
outcomes. And so politics can beactually a really can be a
(15:03):
training ground for a formationthat that sort of trains us off
the spot for other areas of ourlife. But maybe I'll stop there.
Once you say Willard I get sentoff in about five directions.
And all that, but yeah,
Joshua Johnson (15:25):
I love it. But you know, one of the things you
said in your book when you'retalking about loving service is
Willard is talking about. He'stalking about apologetics. The
Ministry of apologetics said ithas become, you know,
intellectual debates andarguments, conducted often with
an arrogant antagonizing spirit.
And it seems like that's whatpolitics is for us now. Right,
(15:46):
is the apologetics arm of thechurch now is that the
apologetics of politics? Allwe're doing is intellectual
debate argument antagonizingspirit, is there a possibility
of engaging with the fruit ofthe Spirit? Can we have the
fruit of the Spirit and engagewell, and I love you you go. I
(16:07):
mean, you have some opposition'sin that and arguments against
actually engaging with the fruitof the spirit within that
chapter. How can what are thearguments against it? And then
how? Why is the fruit of theSpirit so important for us to
engage in civil discourse andour politics?
Michael Wear (16:28):
You know, the the common arguments in the book I
focus on in this chapter, Ifocus on gentleness, I think
you're absolutely right. I mean,I think that this applies more
more more broadly. And in otherchapters, I speak more broadly.
But, you know, there are thingslike, we need anger, we need
(16:50):
fear. We need certainty. We needvulgarity to can we have a truly
democratic politics withoutwithout vulgarity? That is a
question that's earnestly asked.
These days. I think people havebeen surprised, you know, the
book has been out for six, sevenweeks, I think some people have
(17:11):
been surprised to pick up thebook to read it and find pretty
quickly that it's a spiritualformation book. And and the
connection, I hope is one of theconnections I hope is made for
folks, is that if you aren'table to answer these questions
in politics, there are otherareas of your life in which
(17:32):
you're not able to answer thesequestions, and which you're not
answering these questions. Sopolitics gets treated as this
sort of area of life that sortof cordoned cordoned off from
God quarantined from God. And insome ways, it's, in some ways
people treat it as if it's theonly real thing, sort of, what
(17:53):
am I going to do if my sideloses politically, I need to I
need to do whatever I can tosecure my political objectives,
you know, that, that that'sreally the real thing. And then
I'll get back to trying to bespiritual and all these things,
but but it's really importantthat we don't lose politically.
(18:14):
And so anything can sort of bejustified in service of that, in
another way. People treatpolitics like it's not real at
all. But what I argue in thebook is that there is no
political you, there's just you,if you are the kind of person
who will lie in a politicalargument to get your way, you
(18:34):
are that kind of person, thelogic affects the whole of your
life. So this is just reallyimportant to consider. And I,
one of the connections I'mhoping people will make in this
book is to realize that, oh,some of the reasons why I think
I need anger in politics, or whyI need to sort of skirt the
(18:59):
rules in politics. I run abusiness I, I wonder if there
are times in my life where Ithink that dishonesty is
required to run a successfulbusiness. I wonder if in my
relationships, to seat issomething that I think is just
(19:20):
required, if I'm going to livethis life that I have. And what
I just argue in the book,particularly certainly there are
challenges. It is not a strategyfor short term political
success. So it's very important.
And again, I'm excited aboutthis in the book. It's not, oh,
(19:41):
perform kindness in politics sothat you will get political
credit and you will, you'll be amore persuasive force. Know that
this is by living the life thatputting on the things of Christ.
And that is the objective of ourof our life. Now, I think
(20:02):
because of the nature of thekingdom because of who God is, I
think doing that will bless ourpolitics in a whole number of
ways. It may not look like ourcandidate winning an election or
winning Hillary politicalargument. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (20:18):
I think this, this example might might help
some people to get away frompolitics and bringing it into a
place where people arepassionate about. So you're,
you're a fan of, of the blueteam, the Buffalo Bills. I live
in Kansas City. So I'm a fan ofthe red team with the Kansas
City Chiefs. Yeah, we've we'vehad some some really contentious
(20:39):
games together, right? My teamdoesn't like your team, your
team doesn't like my team, wewant to beat you. And so this is
the actually same thing rightnow that we're looking at in the
political arena, right? Blueversus red. We want we our team,
we want to win. How can I engagewith you as a, as a fan of the
team that I want to beat? Howcan we actually engage
(21:04):
civically, with good discourse,and actually have a good, good
spirits about it? But in a waythat does not devolve into to
anger? And you know, andantagonizing spirit. Yeah, you
know,
Michael Wear (21:22):
I mean, interesting. There are a lot of
like, theological work onsports, actually. And I don't
have super developed views. Iwouldn't want to like, I
wouldn't want to, you know,there's just kind of my thoughts
that I could revise, you know,after I ate lunch, you know,
(21:42):
like, just depending, you know,I actually think sports could
serve as an outlet for a prettyright tribalism in sports is not
a bug. It's, it's the featurethat and it's really the whole
the whole enterprise, you know,like it. And there are a lot of
like, theories about the waysthat sports have functioned to
(22:03):
decrease tribalism and otherareas of life, sort of the
people are able to sort ofchannel you know, I've actually,
you know, I think, yeah, I thinkit's an interesting question.
Here's what I, here's what Iwould say. So here's, here's
what I'm careful about, whichis, have you ever been in a
(22:25):
tight game, and the star playeron another team gets injured,
I've ever been in a tight, tightgame and found yourself hoping
that the player aren't loud asanother team gets injured, there
is an orientation of the heartto will that my team does, does
does well wins the game.
Implicit in that, is that theother team is going to lose like
(22:49):
someone has to someone has tolose this right. But But
imagine, like, how distortedwe'd feel the heart of someone
is if they aren't the fan of anyteam, but their motivation is
just seeing one team lose andlose in the worst, most
(23:09):
destructive, you know, fashionpossible. There is no positive
motivation there. They're justin it to see harm done, that
would run against the nature ofsports, right? So you could
argue, the tribalism and even anoppositional lism sort of the
idea that when I'm watching afootball game, I don't want to
(23:33):
draw, I don't want to I don'twant everyone to get a trophy, I
want my team to get the trophy.
Like that's built into it. ButBut if if, if you were watching
sports, for the, for the thrillof seeing the dreams of some
other team and really, you know,destroyed, there'll be something
(23:54):
off about that. Now, the sadthing is, I talk in the book
about this, this idea ofpolitical sectarianism, which is
this framework for thinkingabout polarization, political
sectarianism. The socialscientists, who developed the
concept said, is, is made up ofthree ingredients, the tendency
(24:15):
of aversion, which is thetendency to dislike or distrust,
opposing partisan the tendencyof othering. And then the
tendency of misplacedmoralization, which is to
elevate political disagreementto the area, to the level of
iniquity, sin, good and evil,purely. One of the things that
(24:35):
political sectarianism does, itcan shift you so that you are no
longer pursuing a vision of thegood. You are so acting in
reaction and antagonism towardsyour political opponents, that
the social scientists say thisis developed in such a way where
(24:59):
people will refuse to helpeveryone because they don't want
to help the other side so Billreject their own good just to
see the other side theirpolitical opponents be inflicted
some some harm. That is like notbeing a fan of any team, but
(25:19):
watching the New York Jets justto make sure and just to route
that their quarterback getsinjured and, and, and they get
negative yards in the game, eventhough you really don't care who
wins, you just want the jets tolose. We have a politics right
now where a lot of people aremotivated just by seeing the
people they don't like losewithout any. Any any real care
(25:44):
for who holds up the Lombarditrophy.
Joshua Johnson (25:47):
Exactly, exactly. That's good. I just I
thought that would be besomething to get people out of
there. They're travelingtribalistic political mindset,
which they hold on to I thinkeven harder than they do with
their sports teams, to say, youknow, there is a there is a way
forward, even when you do havean affiliation with somebody
(26:09):
that you say, I really like, alot of their policies, and I
want to stand with them. And sothat's helpful. You know, one of
the things that happened a lotin 2020, as you know, and 2016,
but 2020, especially is that,you know, churches themselves, a
lot of people left because ofpolitical ideology, more than
(26:32):
community, KINGDOM OF GOD typeof, of stuff that happened, you
know, a little in our church, ithappened I was at a I was
teaching at a church just lastweek in Seattle. And they were
already talking politics,because 2020 was so contentious
that a lot of people laughedthat they're trying to say we're
(26:52):
going to talk about the Kingdomof God, Jesus. Yep. How do
churches, especially in America,this year, start to deal with
formation issues, really wheretheir congregants in the middle
of politics? It's a tricky,it's, it's a hard thing to do.
So how do we how do we do that?
Well, yep.
Michael Wear (27:14):
So I read a chapter in the book directed
specifically to pastors andparents, and offer offer
practical advice there. We needto rightly situate politics as
within an under the gospel, asopposed to above it, or outside
and irrelevant to it. I thinkthat there are positive things
(27:36):
that can be done. When thespotlight is on like it is now
with the presidential electionlooming, it's not as as hot yet,
it will get there soon enough.
And include recommendations andjust sort of, you know, I find,
when it comes to politics, wecan put too much pressure on the
sermon and not distribute theresponsibility throughout the
(28:01):
service. But then also, theother both, you know, after
church sort of classes, Sundayschool kind of classes, but also
the other six days of the week,and what the church is, what the
life of the church looks like,looks like they're about, but I
find, for instance, the practiceof praying by name for a civic
(28:24):
leaders, during prayers ofpeople or however sort of your
church functions, is it is adeeply formative, formative
thing and not and not that thisis important. It's not a it's
not a prayer that they theymight vote a particular way on.
On a bill or that no, this isthis is I think that there are
(28:52):
some there's some value in asermon on politics or a series
on politics. But I think thatamounts to triage when what is
and sometimes triage isnecessary. But I think the more
we can't constantly be reactingto our politics. And that is my
(29:14):
concern for the for the churchright now that we are just stuck
in this cycle of reacting topolitics, when it imposes itself
on our imagination, and thenbeing so relieved when sort of
the election is over or thatthat we we go well, thank
(29:36):
goodness, I'll just be, youknow, we have another three
years before we have to worryabout that again. The problem is
that you need to build up themuscles and the expectations of
people so that when they haveChristians in our churches, so
that when they hear tea Chanewhen, when when politics is this
(30:00):
is, is sort of in discussion.
They know that it's the gospelthat is the subject. But if
we're only talking aboutpolitics in the moment of sort
of crisis, then I think people'sguards go up somewhat like,
understandably that, okay,Pastor never talks about this
(30:23):
issue or never talks aboutpolitics, he must have, he must
have a political opinion hewants to get across. And so NIH.
So the center for Christianityand public life organization I
run, we believe that what isneeded is something not all that
dissimilar to and is is actuallydeeply, deeply connected to the
(30:47):
faith and work movement. Thatthat, you know, in the same way
that we came to understand, as,as Christian leaders, that for
all of the general teaching, wewere doing, people were not
connecting the general teachingto their work life, they just
didn't see what God had to dowith their professional lives.
(31:10):
And so we preach sermons on it,we wrote books, we created
institutions center for faithand work institutes for faith
and work to explicitly connectthe dots, not to teach
accounting practices, you know,not not to teach people the real
estate business, but to teachpeople how that the general
(31:31):
principles and teachings ofScripture, what what God wanted
from them in their work life.
And I think a similar long terminstitutional move in the
political and public life spaceis necessary for the sake of
discipleship.
Joshua Johnson (31:50):
I think that's really good. You know, when I
was getting my masters 1011years ago, taking a theology of
work course, and for my masterswas a novel ideas like this is
brand new to think about how allof our formation, how Jesus
actually impacts our work life.
And that was just 10 years ago.
(32:11):
And that was, it was new, andthings have shifted quickly.
Now. I think a lot of peoplethink that 10 years is not
quick, but it really is in thegrand scheme of things that if
we can start to engage this way,and have our spiritual
formation, tied up with ourpolitical life as well, that is
actually all of life stuff isnot just for one or my our
(32:37):
doctrinal issues that we canassent to is actually all of
life formation. We can move theneedle within 10 years, which is
actually not a a heavy lift.
Yeah. And so it can happen, justlike you said, Isn't that faith
in workplace? Yeah,
Michael Wear (32:58):
no, I think so. It and I think it's necessary,
again, not for, you know, ourpolitics is suffering from a
lack of Christian resources.
That is true. That's a realproblem. In many ways, and
frankly, like the concern that'sthat's both concerns are deeper
to my heart, but the concernthat's deeper to my heart, and
(33:19):
close closer to my heart,discipleship is made
incoherence. If there areaspects of our lives in which we
say, it does not apply. We arebuilding in an incoherence into
our lives that does not stayquarantined. It does affect the,
(33:40):
the whole of our lives. And Ithink, pastors, I think we're
all sure it is coming to growingawareness of this. And so the
question is, what are we goingto do about it? One more
difficult things that Willardever taught that, in my view,
is, you know, he, he's talkingabout the passage, the scene in
(34:04):
the gospels, where Jesus isasleep on the boat, and the
storm comes. And, you know, thedisciples are, you know, kind of
freaking out, hit head head, andJesus comes calm storm, but he
then calls them little fates.
(34:27):
And I think we can often readthat passage as man Jesus really
was disappointed in them, youknow, he really laid laid into
them, like what dopes Jesus hasto be around. Willard says, No,
Jesus wasn't rebuking them, justfor doubts that they had that
Jesus would come the storm. No,Jesus was telling them that life
(34:50):
with him is such that even ifthe boat goes down, they are in
a fundamental sense, okay? Thatthey're, they're safe in the
kingdom of God. And that is a,that is a challenge. It is also
a, a totalizing vision that wecould take with us into all of
life, including politics. Thequestion is just like, do we
(35:11):
want to take it there? Can we?
Can we operate in politics in ajoyful way? And Willard define
joy as a full of a pervasive andconstant sense of well being. At
my events over the last six,seven years, I've been asking
people, how many of you woulddefine our politics as full of a
pervasive and constant sense ofwell being? That it's a laugh
line, right. But like, we gotto, we got to ask ourselves,
(35:35):
like why that is, especially inour own heart, you know, why is
it that that that is a place inwhich we find the idea of joy,
to be anathema?
Joshua Johnson (35:50):
I think one of the good examples that you give
of how formation could help inour our civic life, and in
politics is, you know, of ayoung girl for Ruby Bridges. Can
you tell tell us her story andwhy why that's a good example
for us as we move forward information and politics.
Michael Wear (36:10):
So Ruby Bridges, at the age of six years old, was
put in the position ofintegrating her school in
Louisiana. And so this wasfollowing after Brown versus
Board, the Supreme Court'sdecision, and Ruby eventually
had to be escorted by federalmarshals to school every day,
(36:35):
often through crowds ofprotesters that would spit at
the six year old girl, there's areport, one protester was
holding up a like wooden, like amodel of a coffin with a little
black girl inside of it. AndRuby went every day for months
(37:01):
and months. And a teacherrecognize or a teacher reported
to this, the psychologist RobertColes, who was so in awe of what
Ruby was doing, he went toLouisiana to try and study her.
And he heard from a teacher thatRuby mentioned sort of in an
(37:23):
aside, the as she was walkingthrough the crowds, she she was
praying for the protesters. Andshe prayed for them every night.
And I go through the book, Rubyhad a professor at six years
old, had a profound formation,in the teachings of Jesus, and a
(37:44):
profound trust, not just inJesus, but in the testimony of
those around her those closestto her, which enabled her to do
the thing that many people evennow has sort of, you know,
talked about, or say little, ofcourse, I do it or of course, I,
(38:05):
I'd be on the right side ofthose debates. Ruby at six years
old, was there, she was in thethick, thick of it, and she did
it, I would really encouragefolks to, even if it's not my
book to look into Robert Colesis work on Ruby Ruby Bridges.
But in the book, I also talkabout how 50 some odd years
(38:29):
later, when I was working in theWhite House, there was a
portrait of Ruby, we write asyou would walk into the Oval
Office, people who were waitingto meet with the President would
sometimes sit in the couchdirectly underneath this, this
painting. And there you can lookthese up. They're all of these
(38:49):
incredible reports. And I knewpeople who told me this
personally, it's a terrifyingthing to to meet the president
and the Oval Office is aprofoundly intimidating space.
One reason that's oval is whenthey close the door, it becomes
very difficult to remindyourself that there's a way out.
(39:15):
And there would be theseadvocates, people who were
charged with responsibility tosay something that they thought
was important, who would getweak knees. But there are all
all of these testimonies of his,you know, grown adults in
positions of power andinfluence, who would look on the
(39:35):
painting of Ruby britches andgain courage from that and think
of Ruby could do what she did.
Certainly I can do what I'mallowed to do in this moment.
And so yeah, it's it's aprofoundly moving story, that I
think we should be carefulbefore we dismiss what Ruby did
as just the, as Robert Coles wastempted to do as sort of the
(39:58):
delusion shins of a six yearold. I think that there is I
think it's very difficult toread Ruby's story and not not
think about the the scripturalreference to a child like faith,
which is not a faith that isnaive or a faith that is
uneducated. It's about a faiththat is trusting. The Dallas
(40:20):
Willard said that Jesus is themost presumptuous person to ever
live. He presumed upon hisfather wherever he went. And
there's something I have twotoddlers, there's something
profoundly presumptuous aboutabout a five year old, in my
case, and a six year old. And,and so so yeah, I appreciate you
(40:41):
asking me about that. Thatstory. It's, it's painful.
Joshua Johnson (40:45):
I mean, I've learned so much from my six year
olds. And Luke, like he, he hasthat trusting faith, that when I
get scared, and you know, I trynot to let him know that I'm
scared. But when I get scared,and I, you know, something is
wrong. He's like, this is thisis what Jesus says. And he's
(41:06):
walking in, in the trust and thefaith that Jesus is there with
us, in the midst of whateverwe're going through, you know,
his, his grandmother just passedaway that lived with us. And he
has been a sense of, of comfortthat there is trust in Jesus at
the nets, even when we're in themidst of of grief, and sorrow.
And yeah, no, I think that'sright, Michael, if people read
(41:30):
your book, The spirit of ourpolitics, which I hope people
do, because this is one of thevery few books that ties
spiritual formation, politicstogether, which I think is so
important, because if we're notbeing formed into the image and
likeness of Jesus, we're beingformed into sub mouths. And we
want to be formed into the imagelike this, Jesus, what is your
(41:51):
hope for people who read yourbook? Yet?
Michael Wear (41:54):
It may help it I'll just go back to something I
said earlier. You know, my, myhope is, is yes, I mean, I think
what I write about in the bookwould be a blessing to our
politics, I think, I have avision. And the Center for
Christianity in public life hasa vision for a healthier
(42:14):
politics, and public life. Thatis the benefits from a coherent,
integrated Christian presence.
So I think that's true. But mygreatest hope for this book is
that it will empower Christiansto approach politics in a way
that doesn't view Christianity,as useless or as something to be
used. But instead, approachpolitics is something that is
(42:38):
within and under the gospel, anarea an area of life in which
they can steward the limitedinfluence and responsibility
that they have, in a way that ismotivated of love of God and
motivated toward the love oftheir neighbor. And I think that
is important for our politics.
(43:01):
More importantly, it's vital forthe life that we're living with
Jesus. So
Joshua Johnson (43:08):
good. Michael, two quick questions here. One,
if you go back to your 21 yearold self, what advice would you
give? Oh, goodness,
Michael Wear (43:17):
you know, I think I, I would give my 21 year old
self advice to have a bit widervision for opportunities to be
present with people even in themidst of the busyness of life
and the sort of, you know, whenyou're 21 it's old, looking up
(43:43):
and thinking about thedestination, and and knowing
what I know now, I would have, Iwould have, I would have advised
my 21 year old self to be alittle less anxious about what
tomorrow held and what fiveyears from them held and, and
take a bit more time for peopleand relationships and new
(44:07):
conversations. Yeah, yeah, Ithink I think that that would be
Joshua Johnson (44:12):
awesome. That's good advice is great. Anything
you've been reading or watchinglately, you could recommend
Michael Wear (44:18):
Oh, well, I'd be I saw dune two doing two was
pretty great. There is a newbook coming out by my friend
Elizabeth Oldfield fully alive,I believe, is this the the the
RADLE and Elizabeth's amazingand the book is, is it's
(44:39):
incredible. And so I point ipoint people to that I also you
know, really deeply appreciatethe work that John Mark commerce
doing and have benefited from.
So but yeah, this this new bookfrom Elizabeth Oldfield is going
to be really special. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (44:54):
I'm so excited.
I'm gonna interview Elizabeth,you know soon for this book.
Yeah. And I saw I have it andI've, I just read the the
introduction, the very first fewpages, started to cry and weep
and put it down because I had toread a bunch of other things.
I'm so excited to get back toit. It looks incredible.
Amazing. So great. And John Markcomer soon incredible things,
(45:18):
you know, we do have to practicethe way we actually you have to
start to look like Jesus and,and your book does a wonderful
job to help steward us into whathis spiritual formation look
like in all of life, so that itcould impact our politics and
our political life. And that wecan start to engage in a way
that brings out gentleness andall of the fruits of the Spirit
(45:38):
so that we don't have to justhave intellectual assent into
doctrinal issues. But we can saythat our life with Jesus and our
faith in Jesus impactseverything that we do, and our
political life, and so stopdelving into an antagonizing
spirit with intellectual debatesand arguments, but actually
(46:00):
engage politics in a way thatlooks like Jesus. So thank you
so much.
Michael Wear (46:07):
Thank you so much.
Amazing. Glad to be with you.
Should politics gets treated as this sort of
(00:03):
area of life that sort of cordoncordoned off from God
quarantined from God. And insome ways, it's, in some ways
people treat it as if it's theonly real thing, sort of, what
am I going to do if my sideloses politically, I need to I
need to do whatever I can tosecure my political objectives.
(00:27):
You know, that, that that'sreally the real thing. And then
I'll get back to trying to bespiritual and all these things,
but but it's really importantthat we don't lose politically.
And so anything can sort of bejustified in service of that, in
another way. People treatpolitics like it's not real at
all. But what I argue in thebook is that there is no
(00:47):
political you. There's just you.
If you are the kind of personwho will lie in a political
argument to get your way. Youare that kind of person.
Joshua Johnson (01:13):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
forget to hit the Follow buttonon your favorite podcast app to
be notified when new episodescome out each week, and go leave
(01:34):
a rating and review. It's easy,it only takes a second and helps
us find new listeners to theshow. Just go to the Show page
on the app that you're usingright now and hit five stars.
Thank you so much. You know italso would help us out. share
this podcast with your friends,your family and your network.
Tell them how much you enjoy itand let them know that they
should be listening as well. Ifyou're new here, welcome. If you
(01:58):
want to dig deeper find us onsocial media at shifting culture
podcast, where I post videoclips and quotes and interact
with all of you. Previous guestson the show have included
Caitlin chests, Sky chottani andAndrew Whitehead. You can go
back and listen to thoseepisodes and more. But today's
guest is Michael ware. Michaelware is founder president and
(02:19):
CEO for the Center forChristianity and public life, a
nonpartisan, nonprofitinstitution based in the
nation's capital with a missionto contend for the credibility
of Christian resources in publiclife for the public good. He has
served as a trusted resource andadvisor for a range of civic
leaders on matters of faith andpublic life. For the last 15
(02:40):
years, including as a WhiteHouse and presidential campaign
staffer were previously led thepublic square strategies a
consulting firm he founded thathelps religious organizations,
political organizations,businesses and others
effectively navigate the rapidlychanging American religious and
political landscape. He's theauthor of the spirit of our
politics, spiritual formation,and the renovation of public
(03:03):
life, which are used at the kindof people we are as much to do
with the kind of politics andpublic life we will have. So
what does spiritual formationhave to do with our political
engagement? Well, if we arefollowers of Jesus has a lot to
do with it. In this episode,Michael ware discusses how
Dallas Willards work influencedhis view that Christians should
(03:26):
approach politics as a way tolove God and love their neighbor
through civic involvement. Wetalked about different
approaches to politicalengagement, the role of the
church and stories like RubyBridges that demonstrate living
out one's faith even inchallenging political contexts.
Michael hopes that Christianswill be empowered to steward
(03:46):
their influence in politics in away that is motivated by
spiritual virtues likegentleness, and as coherent with
their broader discipleship, andnot just enter into a
competition with an antagonizingspirit. So, join us as we enter
into an all of life, spiritualformation into the image and
likeness of Jesus so that ourpolitical life looks more like
(04:09):
him, and less like inantagonizing sports, here is my
conversation with Michael ware.
Michael, welcome to shiftingculture. Really excited to have
you on thank you so much forjoining me.
Michael Wear (04:22):
So good to be with you. Thanks for having me on.
Joshua Johnson (04:25):
Yeah, I'd love you know, as you're writing the
spirit of our politics, you haveyour new nonprofits, you're
walking into this new electioncycle here and 2020 fours, we're
talking about spiritualformation politics. I want to
know where spiritual formationand politics is intersected
within your own life. And whatwas that like for you? So
Michael Wear (04:47):
I mean, just as a bit of background, I became a
Christian when I was 15 afterreading Romans and went to DC to
the vocational question of mylife as Ben, what's It means to
be faithful in and with publicthings that led me to DC ended
up working in, in a campaign andthen the White House. And when I
(05:13):
got the White House shop, Ithought this is gonna be, this
is gonna be a disaster for myspiritual life, because I was
going to be working 16 hourdays, yes, amazing. And it
actually turned out to be a timeof tremendous flourishing for a
number of reasons. One, thestructure around my days, and
(05:34):
the time constraints and thefact that, you know, I knew if I
wasn't getting scripture in onthe metro ride into the office,
like it was not going to happen,it wasn't sort of like college
where, well, I have a three hourgap between classes, you know,
this afternoon, you know, like,there, there was no gap in my
schedule later in the day. Andso I probably read more
(05:58):
Scripture than I had, at anypoint in my life up to that
point, when I was at the WhiteHouse. The other thing was, I
had the opportunity to work insomething called the Office of
faith based and NeighborhoodPartnerships, which meant that I
was working every day withpastors, nonprofits that were
(06:19):
serving those in need. And Idon't think I've been ever been
prayed for as much as the thosethose three and a half years in
the White House. And so, youknow, prayer, scripture reading,
these things do not amounts tospiritual formation, they are
(06:41):
practices that God can use forspiritual formation, which
refers refers to the process bywhich the inner process by which
our character, our will takes ona specific kind of shape. And
Christian spiritual formation isentirely directed and focused on
(07:05):
Jesus. And, you know, I've seenI've seen that in in my own
life. And to my surprise, it wassort of when I was most in the
thick of things, that that, thatit was a time of tremendous
formation for me.
Joshua Johnson (07:22):
Where did Dallas Willard come into the picture?
For you? You know, this wholebook is based on Willard Yan,
you know, through the lens ofwhat he has written. So, how did
you get connected with withDallas Willards writing? And how
did that shape your thinking,
Michael Wear (07:40):
someone sent a copy of the Divine conspiracy to
my office, pretty soon after Istarted at the White House. And
I thought, this is a mean trick,who has time to read this 300
Page dance? You
Joshua Johnson (07:55):
know, that's, that's it's not to get through,
but it's so good.
Michael Wear (08:00):
The author, the about the author was like, you
know, he was a, you know, taughtphilosophy at University of
Southern California, like, whohas, and thankfully, my pastor
back home and buffalo, who, youknow, wasn't a big sort of
public writer or anything. Hehappened to post something,
(08:20):
recommending this book, and Ithought, well, if it got sent to
me by someone I respected and mypastor back home was telling me
I should read it, I shouldprobably pick this up. And it
was like a second spiritualawakening in my life. So So just
as context for for yourlisteners, as I sort of alluded
to, or mentioned, you know,Willard was, so he passed about
(08:43):
a decade ago, he taughtphilosophy at the University of
Southern California for almost50 years. At for a time, he was
chair of the philosophydepartment, he also served at
various points during his lifeas a pastor, author of many
books, and and a Christianteacher. Yeah, there's so much
(09:07):
that could be could be said, butmy own personal life and
trajectory has been profoundlyimpacted by his work and it his
approach to the teachings ofJesus and the way that he opens
up scripture. And thenobviously, in this book is a
testament to this as well as, asreally impacted my my
(09:29):
perspective on politics inpublic life and public
questions. And so the book is,we do not hide the ball in the
book, it's very clear. RoleWillard plays out from his idea
of Gospels of sin management andthe disappearance of moral
knowledge into his conception ofspiritual formation. This book
(09:53):
is in large part, an applicationof Willards ideas As in the
political and realm of publiclife, I would say readers don't
have to be familiar with Willardin order to read the book,
though I certainly hope my bookwill lead will lead people to
read Willard. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (10:14):
I think it'd be be great to go down that path.
And one of the things that hedoes and I think, was shaped me
for a long time as his, youknow, curriculum for Christ's
likeness and figuring out whatdoes it look like to, to
actually have things in yourlife to look more like Jesus, I
with Christians that I know,when it comes to engaging in
(10:34):
politics, there's really a fewdifferent ways that that
Christians, I know, engage, oneis almost Dominionism, like, we
want to control politics so thatwe could have the power to enact
whatever we want to get thingsdone. So, you know, at the
beginning, maybe there maybethey think what they have is
(10:55):
good, so to help everybody, butit's really about, you know,
taking control and power.
Another way a Christians reallyengage politics is not to engage
politics, because it looks sonasty and horrible, I don't want
to get involved. And then I knowsome Christians who really are
trying to be faithful to Jesusand say, what does it look like
(11:16):
to follow Jesus being engaged ina civic life? And primarily,
what they do is, is local civicengagement where we could
actually have something happen.
You know, I got my master's insocial and civic
entrepreneurship. And, you know,for me, I the social aspect was
(11:39):
like, this seems easier for me.
So I'm, you know, I directed anonprofit, I'm engaged in trying
to help impact the worlds andpositive ways. But it was really
harder for me to see how do I dothat in the political sphere? So
in that, what is it a faithfulway to follow Jesus and engage
(12:00):
in politics? The
Michael Wear (12:05):
more specific you get, I think the, the less that
we should say with short ofinvoking faithfulness, as, as as
synonymous with a particularapproach. In the book, I advance
political engagement that isdone in the spirit of loving
(12:28):
service. I believe Christiansshould approach politics as an
essential forum in which theycan love their neighbors will
their good. And I think thatcould that could take shape in a
whole number of ways. And Ithink different people have
different sort of callings, whatI what I will say is that, if
(12:49):
you are a citizen in America, orin a in a Democratic
Representative system ofgovernment, you do not choose to
have political influence youalready habits. And so the
decision to make is how tosteward the influence that you
have already been given.
Discipleship is about learningfrom Jesus, how he would live
your life if he was you. AndWillard talks about this idea
(13:11):
that Willards definition of ofKingdom is the range of your
effective will. So God's kingdomis the range of his effective
well, where what he wants doneis done. But Willard says, we
all have our own sort of littlekingdom, so to speak, where that
represent the range of oureffective will, where will we
(13:32):
mark down his time, and politicsis one of those areas where that
is within the range of oureffective will. And so we want
to, we want to steward that in away that is consistent with the
broader calling that God has onour life to love God and love
our neighbor. I think politicsis really tricky for folks, but
(13:53):
in ways that could beinstructive and actually could
be really contributed to, again,the the broader life that we're
living with God, one of thetricky aspects of politics is
that it is mediated andcontingent. And you have so
little control over the outcomesof politics, it can be sometimes
(14:19):
impossible to know if what youput in is actually making a
difference. And even if it does,it's can be very difficult to
take credit for it because it'snot it's not, it's not evident,
often that it was it was yourinput that made the difference.
These can be very difficultthings. They can also be really
(14:43):
instructive. If we actuallyshould be more aware of how
little control we have overoutcomes in other areas of our
life, and I think there's greatdanger in a spirituality have
outcomes. And so politics can beactually a really can be a
(15:03):
training ground for a formationthat that sort of trains us off
the spot for other areas of ourlife. But maybe I'll stop there.
Once you say Willard I get sentoff in about five directions.
And all that, but yeah,
Joshua Johnson (15:25):
I love it. But you know, one of the things you
said in your book when you'retalking about loving service is
Willard is talking about. He'stalking about apologetics. The
Ministry of apologetics said ithas become, you know,
intellectual debates andarguments, conducted often with
an arrogant antagonizing spirit.
And it seems like that's whatpolitics is for us now. Right,
(15:46):
is the apologetics arm of thechurch now is that the
apologetics of politics? Allwe're doing is intellectual
debate argument antagonizingspirit, is there a possibility
of engaging with the fruit ofthe Spirit? Can we have the
fruit of the Spirit and engagewell, and I love you you go. I
(16:07):
mean, you have some opposition'sin that and arguments against
actually engaging with the fruitof the spirit within that
chapter. How can what are thearguments against it? And then
how? Why is the fruit of theSpirit so important for us to
engage in civil discourse andour politics?
Michael Wear (16:28):
You know, the the common arguments in the book I
focus on in this chapter, Ifocus on gentleness, I think
you're absolutely right. I mean,I think that this applies more
more more broadly. And in otherchapters, I speak more broadly.
But, you know, there are thingslike, we need anger, we need
(16:50):
fear. We need certainty. We needvulgarity to can we have a truly
democratic politics withoutwithout vulgarity? That is a
question that's earnestly asked.
These days. I think people havebeen surprised, you know, the
book has been out for six, sevenweeks, I think some people have
(17:11):
been surprised to pick up thebook to read it and find pretty
quickly that it's a spiritualformation book. And and the
connection, I hope is one of theconnections I hope is made for
folks, is that if you aren'table to answer these questions
in politics, there are otherareas of your life in which
(17:32):
you're not able to answer thesequestions, and which you're not
answering these questions. Sopolitics gets treated as this
sort of area of life that sortof cordoned cordoned off from
God quarantined from God. And insome ways, it's, in some ways
people treat it as if it's theonly real thing, sort of, what
(17:53):
am I going to do if my sideloses politically, I need to I
need to do whatever I can tosecure my political objectives,
you know, that, that that'sreally the real thing. And then
I'll get back to trying to bespiritual and all these things,
but but it's really importantthat we don't lose politically.
(18:14):
And so anything can sort of bejustified in service of that, in
another way. People treatpolitics like it's not real at
all. But what I argue in thebook is that there is no
political you, there's just you,if you are the kind of person
who will lie in a politicalargument to get your way, you
(18:34):
are that kind of person, thelogic affects the whole of your
life. So this is just reallyimportant to consider. And I,
one of the connections I'mhoping people will make in this
book is to realize that, oh,some of the reasons why I think
I need anger in politics, or whyI need to sort of skirt the
(18:59):
rules in politics. I run abusiness I, I wonder if there
are times in my life where Ithink that dishonesty is
required to run a successfulbusiness. I wonder if in my
relationships, to seat issomething that I think is just
(19:20):
required, if I'm going to livethis life that I have. And what
I just argue in the book,particularly certainly there are
challenges. It is not a strategyfor short term political
success. So it's very important.
And again, I'm excited aboutthis in the book. It's not, oh,
(19:41):
perform kindness in politics sothat you will get political
credit and you will, you'll be amore persuasive force. Know that
this is by living the life thatputting on the things of Christ.
And that is the objective of ourof our life. Now, I think
(20:02):
because of the nature of thekingdom because of who God is, I
think doing that will bless ourpolitics in a whole number of
ways. It may not look like ourcandidate winning an election or
winning Hillary politicalargument. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (20:18):
I think this, this example might might help
some people to get away frompolitics and bringing it into a
place where people arepassionate about. So you're,
you're a fan of, of the blueteam, the Buffalo Bills. I live
in Kansas City. So I'm a fan ofthe red team with the Kansas
City Chiefs. Yeah, we've we'vehad some some really contentious
(20:39):
games together, right? My teamdoesn't like your team, your
team doesn't like my team, wewant to beat you. And so this is
the actually same thing rightnow that we're looking at in the
political arena, right? Blueversus red. We want we our team,
we want to win. How can I engagewith you as a, as a fan of the
team that I want to beat? Howcan we actually engage
(21:04):
civically, with good discourse,and actually have a good, good
spirits about it? But in a waythat does not devolve into to
anger? And you know, andantagonizing spirit. Yeah, you
know,
Michael Wear (21:22):
I mean, interesting. There are a lot of
like, theological work onsports, actually. And I don't
have super developed views. Iwouldn't want to like, I
wouldn't want to, you know,there's just kind of my thoughts
that I could revise, you know,after I ate lunch, you know,
(21:42):
like, just depending, you know,I actually think sports could
serve as an outlet for a prettyright tribalism in sports is not
a bug. It's, it's the featurethat and it's really the whole
the whole enterprise, you know,like it. And there are a lot of
like, theories about the waysthat sports have functioned to
(22:03):
decrease tribalism and otherareas of life, sort of the
people are able to sort ofchannel you know, I've actually,
you know, I think, yeah, I thinkit's an interesting question.
Here's what I, here's what Iwould say. So here's, here's
what I'm careful about, whichis, have you ever been in a
(22:25):
tight game, and the star playeron another team gets injured,
I've ever been in a tight, tightgame and found yourself hoping
that the player aren't loud asanother team gets injured, there
is an orientation of the heartto will that my team does, does
does well wins the game.
Implicit in that, is that theother team is going to lose like
(22:49):
someone has to someone has tolose this right. But But
imagine, like, how distortedwe'd feel the heart of someone
is if they aren't the fan of anyteam, but their motivation is
just seeing one team lose andlose in the worst, most
(23:09):
destructive, you know, fashionpossible. There is no positive
motivation there. They're justin it to see harm done, that
would run against the nature ofsports, right? So you could
argue, the tribalism and even anoppositional lism sort of the
idea that when I'm watching afootball game, I don't want to
(23:33):
draw, I don't want to I don'twant everyone to get a trophy, I
want my team to get the trophy.
Like that's built into it. ButBut if if, if you were watching
sports, for the, for the thrillof seeing the dreams of some
other team and really, you know,destroyed, there'll be something
(23:54):
off about that. Now, the sadthing is, I talk in the book
about this, this idea ofpolitical sectarianism, which is
this framework for thinkingabout polarization, political
sectarianism. The socialscientists, who developed the
concept said, is, is made up ofthree ingredients, the tendency
(24:15):
of aversion, which is thetendency to dislike or distrust,
opposing partisan the tendencyof othering. And then the
tendency of misplacedmoralization, which is to
elevate political disagreementto the area, to the level of
iniquity, sin, good and evil,purely. One of the things that
(24:35):
political sectarianism does, itcan shift you so that you are no
longer pursuing a vision of thegood. You are so acting in
reaction and antagonism towardsyour political opponents, that
the social scientists say thisis developed in such a way where
(24:59):
people will refuse to helpeveryone because they don't want
to help the other side so Billreject their own good just to
see the other side theirpolitical opponents be inflicted
some some harm. That is like notbeing a fan of any team, but
(25:19):
watching the New York Jets justto make sure and just to route
that their quarterback getsinjured and, and, and they get
negative yards in the game, eventhough you really don't care who
wins, you just want the jets tolose. We have a politics right
now where a lot of people aremotivated just by seeing the
people they don't like losewithout any. Any any real care
(25:44):
for who holds up the Lombarditrophy.
Joshua Johnson (25:47):
Exactly, exactly. That's good. I just I
thought that would be besomething to get people out of
there. They're travelingtribalistic political mindset,
which they hold on to I thinkeven harder than they do with
their sports teams, to say, youknow, there is a there is a way
forward, even when you do havean affiliation with somebody
(26:09):
that you say, I really like, alot of their policies, and I
want to stand with them. And sothat's helpful. You know, one of
the things that happened a lotin 2020, as you know, and 2016,
but 2020, especially is that,you know, churches themselves, a
lot of people left because ofpolitical ideology, more than
(26:32):
community, KINGDOM OF GOD typeof, of stuff that happened, you
know, a little in our church, ithappened I was at a I was
teaching at a church just lastweek in Seattle. And they were
already talking politics,because 2020 was so contentious
that a lot of people laughedthat they're trying to say we're
(26:52):
going to talk about the Kingdomof God, Jesus. Yep. How do
churches, especially in America,this year, start to deal with
formation issues, really wheretheir congregants in the middle
of politics? It's a tricky,it's, it's a hard thing to do.
So how do we how do we do that?
Well, yep.
Michael Wear (27:14):
So I read a chapter in the book directed
specifically to pastors andparents, and offer offer
practical advice there. We needto rightly situate politics as
within an under the gospel, asopposed to above it, or outside
and irrelevant to it. I thinkthat there are positive things
(27:36):
that can be done. When thespotlight is on like it is now
with the presidential electionlooming, it's not as as hot yet,
it will get there soon enough.
And include recommendations andjust sort of, you know, I find,
when it comes to politics, wecan put too much pressure on the
sermon and not distribute theresponsibility throughout the
(28:01):
service. But then also, theother both, you know, after
church sort of classes, Sundayschool kind of classes, but also
the other six days of the week,and what the church is, what the
life of the church looks like,looks like they're about, but I
find, for instance, the practiceof praying by name for a civic
(28:24):
leaders, during prayers ofpeople or however sort of your
church functions, is it is adeeply formative, formative
thing and not and not that thisis important. It's not a it's
not a prayer that they theymight vote a particular way on.
On a bill or that no, this isthis is I think that there are
(28:52):
some there's some value in asermon on politics or a series
on politics. But I think thatamounts to triage when what is
and sometimes triage isnecessary. But I think the more
we can't constantly be reactingto our politics. And that is my
(29:14):
concern for the for the churchright now that we are just stuck
in this cycle of reacting topolitics, when it imposes itself
on our imagination, and thenbeing so relieved when sort of
the election is over or thatthat we we go well, thank
(29:36):
goodness, I'll just be, youknow, we have another three
years before we have to worryabout that again. The problem is
that you need to build up themuscles and the expectations of
people so that when they haveChristians in our churches, so
that when they hear tea Chanewhen, when when politics is this
(30:00):
is, is sort of in discussion.
They know that it's the gospelthat is the subject. But if
we're only talking aboutpolitics in the moment of sort
of crisis, then I think people'sguards go up somewhat like,
understandably that, okay,Pastor never talks about this
(30:23):
issue or never talks aboutpolitics, he must have, he must
have a political opinion hewants to get across. And so NIH.
So the center for Christianityand public life organization I
run, we believe that what isneeded is something not all that
dissimilar to and is is actuallydeeply, deeply connected to the
(30:47):
faith and work movement. Thatthat, you know, in the same way
that we came to understand, as,as Christian leaders, that for
all of the general teaching, wewere doing, people were not
connecting the general teachingto their work life, they just
didn't see what God had to dowith their professional lives.
(31:10):
And so we preach sermons on it,we wrote books, we created
institutions center for faithand work institutes for faith
and work to explicitly connectthe dots, not to teach
accounting practices, you know,not not to teach people the real
estate business, but to teachpeople how that the general
(31:31):
principles and teachings ofScripture, what what God wanted
from them in their work life.
And I think a similar long terminstitutional move in the
political and public life spaceis necessary for the sake of
discipleship.
Joshua Johnson (31:50):
I think that's really good. You know, when I
was getting my masters 1011years ago, taking a theology of
work course, and for my masterswas a novel ideas like this is
brand new to think about how allof our formation, how Jesus
actually impacts our work life.
And that was just 10 years ago.
(32:11):
And that was, it was new, andthings have shifted quickly.
Now. I think a lot of peoplethink that 10 years is not
quick, but it really is in thegrand scheme of things that if
we can start to engage this way,and have our spiritual
formation, tied up with ourpolitical life as well, that is
actually all of life stuff isnot just for one or my our
(32:37):
doctrinal issues that we canassent to is actually all of
life formation. We can move theneedle within 10 years, which is
actually not a a heavy lift.
Yeah. And so it can happen, justlike you said, Isn't that faith
in workplace? Yeah,
Michael Wear (32:58):
no, I think so. It and I think it's necessary,
again, not for, you know, ourpolitics is suffering from a
lack of Christian resources.
That is true. That's a realproblem. In many ways, and
frankly, like the concern that'sthat's both concerns are deeper
to my heart, but the concernthat's deeper to my heart, and
(33:19):
close closer to my heart,discipleship is made
incoherence. If there areaspects of our lives in which we
say, it does not apply. We arebuilding in an incoherence into
our lives that does not stayquarantined. It does affect the,
(33:40):
the whole of our lives. And Ithink, pastors, I think we're
all sure it is coming to growingawareness of this. And so the
question is, what are we goingto do about it? One more
difficult things that Willardever taught that, in my view,
is, you know, he, he's talkingabout the passage, the scene in
(34:04):
the gospels, where Jesus isasleep on the boat, and the
storm comes. And, you know, thedisciples are, you know, kind of
freaking out, hit head head, andJesus comes calm storm, but he
then calls them little fates.
(34:27):
And I think we can often readthat passage as man Jesus really
was disappointed in them, youknow, he really laid laid into
them, like what dopes Jesus hasto be around. Willard says, No,
Jesus wasn't rebuking them, justfor doubts that they had that
Jesus would come the storm. No,Jesus was telling them that life
(34:50):
with him is such that even ifthe boat goes down, they are in
a fundamental sense, okay? Thatthey're, they're safe in the
kingdom of God. And that is a,that is a challenge. It is also
a, a totalizing vision that wecould take with us into all of
life, including politics. Thequestion is just like, do we
(35:11):
want to take it there? Can we?
Can we operate in politics in ajoyful way? And Willard define
joy as a full of a pervasive andconstant sense of well being. At
my events over the last six,seven years, I've been asking
people, how many of you woulddefine our politics as full of a
pervasive and constant sense ofwell being? That it's a laugh
line, right. But like, we gotto, we got to ask ourselves,
(35:35):
like why that is, especially inour own heart, you know, why is
it that that that is a place inwhich we find the idea of joy,
to be anathema?
Joshua Johnson (35:50):
I think one of the good examples that you give
of how formation could help inour our civic life, and in
politics is, you know, of ayoung girl for Ruby Bridges. Can
you tell tell us her story andwhy why that's a good example
for us as we move forward information and politics.
Michael Wear (36:10):
So Ruby Bridges, at the age of six years old, was
put in the position ofintegrating her school in
Louisiana. And so this wasfollowing after Brown versus
Board, the Supreme Court'sdecision, and Ruby eventually
had to be escorted by federalmarshals to school every day,
(36:35):
often through crowds ofprotesters that would spit at
the six year old girl, there's areport, one protester was
holding up a like wooden, like amodel of a coffin with a little
black girl inside of it. AndRuby went every day for months
(37:01):
and months. And a teacherrecognize or a teacher reported
to this, the psychologist RobertColes, who was so in awe of what
Ruby was doing, he went toLouisiana to try and study her.
And he heard from a teacher thatRuby mentioned sort of in an
(37:23):
aside, the as she was walkingthrough the crowds, she she was
praying for the protesters. Andshe prayed for them every night.
And I go through the book, Rubyhad a professor at six years
old, had a profound formation,in the teachings of Jesus, and a
(37:44):
profound trust, not just inJesus, but in the testimony of
those around her those closestto her, which enabled her to do
the thing that many people evennow has sort of, you know,
talked about, or say little, ofcourse, I do it or of course, I,
(38:05):
I'd be on the right side ofthose debates. Ruby at six years
old, was there, she was in thethick, thick of it, and she did
it, I would really encouragefolks to, even if it's not my
book to look into Robert Colesis work on Ruby Ruby Bridges.
But in the book, I also talkabout how 50 some odd years
(38:29):
later, when I was working in theWhite House, there was a
portrait of Ruby, we write asyou would walk into the Oval
Office, people who were waitingto meet with the President would
sometimes sit in the couchdirectly underneath this, this
painting. And there you can lookthese up. They're all of these
(38:49):
incredible reports. And I knewpeople who told me this
personally, it's a terrifyingthing to to meet the president
and the Oval Office is aprofoundly intimidating space.
One reason that's oval is whenthey close the door, it becomes
very difficult to remindyourself that there's a way out.
(39:15):
And there would be theseadvocates, people who were
charged with responsibility tosay something that they thought
was important, who would getweak knees. But there are all
all of these testimonies of his,you know, grown adults in
positions of power andinfluence, who would look on the
(39:35):
painting of Ruby britches andgain courage from that and think
of Ruby could do what she did.
Certainly I can do what I'mallowed to do in this moment.
And so yeah, it's it's aprofoundly moving story, that I
think we should be carefulbefore we dismiss what Ruby did
as just the, as Robert Coles wastempted to do as sort of the
(39:58):
delusion shins of a six yearold. I think that there is I
think it's very difficult toread Ruby's story and not not
think about the the scripturalreference to a child like faith,
which is not a faith that isnaive or a faith that is
uneducated. It's about a faiththat is trusting. The Dallas
(40:20):
Willard said that Jesus is themost presumptuous person to ever
live. He presumed upon hisfather wherever he went. And
there's something I have twotoddlers, there's something
profoundly presumptuous aboutabout a five year old, in my
case, and a six year old. And,and so so yeah, I appreciate you
(40:41):
asking me about that. Thatstory. It's, it's painful.
Joshua Johnson (40:45):
I mean, I've learned so much from my six year
olds. And Luke, like he, he hasthat trusting faith, that when I
get scared, and you know, I trynot to let him know that I'm
scared. But when I get scared,and I, you know, something is
wrong. He's like, this is thisis what Jesus says. And he's
(41:06):
walking in, in the trust and thefaith that Jesus is there with
us, in the midst of whateverwe're going through, you know,
his, his grandmother just passedaway that lived with us. And he
has been a sense of, of comfortthat there is trust in Jesus at
the nets, even when we're in themidst of of grief, and sorrow.
And yeah, no, I think that'sright, Michael, if people read
(41:30):
your book, The spirit of ourpolitics, which I hope people
do, because this is one of thevery few books that ties
spiritual formation, politicstogether, which I think is so
important, because if we're notbeing formed into the image and
likeness of Jesus, we're beingformed into sub mouths. And we
want to be formed into the imagelike this, Jesus, what is your
(41:51):
hope for people who read yourbook? Yet?
Michael Wear (41:54):
It may help it I'll just go back to something I
said earlier. You know, my, myhope is, is yes, I mean, I think
what I write about in the bookwould be a blessing to our
politics, I think, I have avision. And the Center for
Christianity in public life hasa vision for a healthier
(42:14):
politics, and public life. Thatis the benefits from a coherent,
integrated Christian presence.
So I think that's true. But mygreatest hope for this book is
that it will empower Christiansto approach politics in a way
that doesn't view Christianity,as useless or as something to be
used. But instead, approachpolitics is something that is
(42:38):
within and under the gospel, anarea an area of life in which
they can steward the limitedinfluence and responsibility
that they have, in a way that ismotivated of love of God and
motivated toward the love oftheir neighbor. And I think that
is important for our politics.
(43:01):
More importantly, it's vital forthe life that we're living with
Jesus. So
Joshua Johnson (43:08):
good. Michael, two quick questions here. One,
if you go back to your 21 yearold self, what advice would you
give? Oh, goodness,
Michael Wear (43:17):
you know, I think I, I would give my 21 year old
self advice to have a bit widervision for opportunities to be
present with people even in themidst of the busyness of life
and the sort of, you know, whenyou're 21 it's old, looking up
(43:43):
and thinking about thedestination, and and knowing
what I know now, I would have, Iwould have, I would have advised
my 21 year old self to be alittle less anxious about what
tomorrow held and what fiveyears from them held and, and
take a bit more time for peopleand relationships and new
(44:07):
conversations. Yeah, yeah, Ithink I think that that would be
Joshua Johnson (44:12):
awesome. That's good advice is great. Anything
you've been reading or watchinglately, you could recommend
Michael Wear (44:18):
Oh, well, I'd be I saw dune two doing two was
pretty great. There is a newbook coming out by my friend
Elizabeth Oldfield fully alive,I believe, is this the the the
RADLE and Elizabeth's amazingand the book is, is it's
(44:39):
incredible. And so I point ipoint people to that I also you
know, really deeply appreciatethe work that John Mark commerce
doing and have benefited from.
So but yeah, this this new bookfrom Elizabeth Oldfield is going
to be really special. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (44:54):
I'm so excited.
I'm gonna interview Elizabeth,you know soon for this book.
Yeah. And I saw I have it andI've, I just read the the
introduction, the very first fewpages, started to cry and weep
and put it down because I had toread a bunch of other things.
I'm so excited to get back toit. It looks incredible.
Amazing. So great. And John Markcomer soon incredible things,
(45:18):
you know, we do have to practicethe way we actually you have to
start to look like Jesus and,and your book does a wonderful
job to help steward us into whathis spiritual formation look
like in all of life, so that itcould impact our politics and
our political life. And that wecan start to engage in a way
that brings out gentleness andall of the fruits of the Spirit
(45:38):
so that we don't have to justhave intellectual assent into
doctrinal issues. But we can saythat our life with Jesus and our
faith in Jesus impactseverything that we do, and our
political life, and so stopdelving into an antagonizing
spirit with intellectual debatesand arguments, but actually
(46:00):
engage politics in a way thatlooks like Jesus. So thank you
so much.
Michael Wear (46:07):
Thank you so much.
Amazing. Glad to be with you.
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