In this episode, Neil Cole explores spiritual formation and missionary methods through a discussion of Paul's journeys in the book of Acts. He shares insights from his book "Journeys" about Paul's progression and growth through each journey of his life and ministry, as well as lessons learned during a 13-year period of silence. Neil applies Paul's model to our own spiritual journeys and finishing well. We also talk shifting from institutions to more organic, relational ministry and hearing God's voice to radically obey his commands. So join us as we dive into the book of Acts, look at Paul’s journeys, and see what it has to do with our own life’s journeys and spiritual formation.
Neil Cole is an author, missional thinker, and movement catalyst. His whole work can be summed up in this: listen to Jesus and do what He says. Neil’s latest book and the focus of our conversation today is Journeys: Discovering God’s Paths of Spiritual Formation Building to a Strong Finish.
Neil's Book:
Journeys
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
Go to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.
Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Threads at
www.facebook.com/shiftingculturepodcast
https://www.instagram.com/shiftingculturepodcast/
https://twitter.com/shiftingcultur2
https://www.threads.net/@shiftingculturepodcast
https://www.youtube.com/@shiftingculturepodcast
Consider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Neil Cole (00:00):
So I think in the in the not too distant future, this
(00:03):
is my speculation. And like Isaid, on my team, I'm not the
Prophet, I have a prophet. Andhe's smarter than I am in those
ways. But I'll just fit sureguests. I think in the future,
people will not be asinstitutional as their parents
or grandparents were. In fact, Ithink they will be anti
institutional. So the moment youput a brand or logo on it,
(00:26):
they're going to be turned offby that. So we're going to have
to approach ministry. Not asorganizational but more organic
and more relational than, thanwe did in the past.
Joshua Johnson (00:54):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ looked like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson, gotta
shift in culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
forget to hit the Follow buttonon your favorite podcast app to
be notified when new episodescome out each week, and go leave
(01:16):
a rating and review. It's easy,it only takes a second and it
helps us find new listeners tothe show. Just go to the Show
page on the app that you'reusing right now and hit five
stars. It really is that easy.
Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
this podcast with your friends,your family, your network? Tell
them how much you enjoy it. Letthem know they should be
listening as well. If you're newhere, welcome. If you want to
(01:38):
dig deeper find us on socialmedia at shifting culture
podcast, where I post videoclips and quotes and interact
with all of you. Previous guestson the show have included Alan
Hirsch, Michael frost and PamArland. You can go back listen
to those amazing episodes andmore. But today's guest is Neil
Cole. It is so good to have Neilback on the podcast. Neil Cole
(01:59):
is an author, missional thinkerand movement catalyst. His whole
work can be summed up in thisLISTEN to Jesus and DO what He
says. I say that all the time.
Neil's latest book is the focusof our conversation today. Its
journeys, discovering God'spaths of spiritual formation,
building to a strong finish. Inthis episode, Neil explores
(02:22):
spiritual formation andmissionary methods through a
discussion of Paul's journeys inthe book of Acts. He shares
insights from his book journeysabout Paul's progression, and
grow through each journey of hislife and ministry, as well as
lessons learned during a 13 yearperiod of silence. Neil applies
Paul's model to our ownspiritual journeys and finishing
well. We also talk shifting frominstitutions to more organic
(02:46):
relational ministry and hearingGod's voice and radically obey
his commands. So join us as wedive into the book of Acts, look
at Paul's journeys and see whatit has to do with our own life's
journeys and spiritualformation. Here is my
conversation with Neil Cole.
Neil, welcome back to theshifting culture. Really excited
to have you on. Thanks forjoining me.
Neil Cole (03:08):
Great to be back,
Joshua Johnson (03:09):
Joshua, excited to jump in and talk about your
book journeys. I'd love to knowwhere was the impetus for this
years ago, before you did thisreworking? Where did your
fascination with Paul'smissionary journeys and the
addition into spiritualformation into our own lives
(03:32):
take place? Right,
Neil Cole (03:34):
so many years ago, I can. Maybe the early mid 90s I
read? Well, the way we dodiscipleship is we read 20 to 30
chapters in Scripture every weekin the life transformation
group. And so we're reading X,all the way through every week,
repetitively for at least amonth, maybe two. And so I was
(03:56):
reading a lot of Acts. But Ialso had other reading, I was
reading J. Robert Clinton orBobby Clinton's book, The Making
of a leader. And I had also justread the classic St. Paul
missionary methods St. Paul'sare hours by Roland Allen. And
(04:16):
everything sort of congealed atonce in my brain, I saw
Clinton's framework ofleadership formation, put over
Paul's life, and I saw Paul'smethodology grow and change
whereas most books on Paul, theyjust summarize a method based on
all of his trips, I sawprogression and change and
(04:41):
growth and learning in bothlife. And that was a long time
ago, but I was nowhere nearmature enough to write the book.
I wrote an article, but I didn'thave enough experience to write
the book most almost all mybooks. I have to do them before
I write them. So I live life andthen in 2011 or 2010, I wrote
(05:02):
the book journeys tosignificance. And it was
published by Josie bass, whichis an imprint of Wiley, the
minute I held that book in myhand, you know, that's always a
special moment for the authorthat comes in the mail, you pick
it up, you hold it actually inyour hand, something you've
worked for years to get to thefinished product. And the moment
(05:23):
I held it, I felt God's Spiritwhisper in my ear. I'm about to
take you into a boundary or aperiod of transition. It didn't
tell me how long or why or whatit was about. But it was a 13
year transition. And he, hesilenced me in the US. He said,
No more gonna go to conferencesanymore. No more training in the
(05:45):
US. He shut down our offices.
You shut down my website. He hadme stopped blogging. Apparently,
he told everyone to stopblogging. He had me stopped
using social media other thanjust a picture of a cute
grandkid or a waterfall, no morecontent. So he basically
silenced me for 13 years. Hedidn't tell me how long it would
(06:07):
be I kept asking what did I dowrong? And he kept saying you
didn't do anything wrong. Thisis not about that. And I kept
asking, well, what's the lessonI have to learn to this kind of
lesson you can't just learn byreading a book. And so for 13
years, he let me do everything Iwanted to overseas. And that was
my focus. He changed my writingfrom writing to church leaders
(06:28):
to run into young peopleunengaged with church. And that
is a difference between the twobooks. He stripped everything
away, except Jesus. And and Ifound that was still enough. And
I got through it all, I couldn'tget a job, no matter how. Right
I was, before I even applied forWalmart and couldn't stock
(06:49):
shelves. They wouldn't hire me.
So the only job I had duringthose 13 years was I got to
drive Lyft kind of like Uber.
And that was a good experiencein some respects. But it was a
rough 13 years for both me andmy wife. But every bill got
paid. Every bill got paid ontime. My two daughters both got
(07:10):
had weddings, and they werebeautiful. Spared no expense.
God took care of us journeysignificance went on her print
faster than any book I've everwritten. And a lot of my dearest
and closest friends say it wasmy best book. So the publisher
gave me the rights back, and Iwas just going to reissue it and
(07:31):
republish it. And the Lord said,No, you need to rewrite it for
your new audience. So I startedtrying to just tiny, tweak it.
And he says, No, start overrewrite the whole thing. And I
did. And so it took me as longto rewrite journeys as writing
any book ever did. And when itcame out, I think it I think the
person that wrote this book isdifferent than the person who
(07:55):
wrote the first one. And I guessif the books worth writing
twice, it might be worth readingtwice.
Joshua Johnson (08:03):
I think so I love this new version of of what
you did. And I think that longjourney of a formation and in
the silent, and that changesthat really does change you
coming out of that long journey.
What are some things that thatdefined that space for you? What
did God do in your life?
Neil Cole (08:26):
Well, there's a number of things. It's not like
with God, it's not usually justone lesson or one thing. We can
all say, Jesus is my everything,but until everything else is
taken away, and and you know, Istill have my family and my home
is still so I'm very blessed,I'm suffering. But I have come
(08:47):
to realize that Jesus is enoughfor me, and I will, I will not
ever lose that. And that is themost important thing in my life.
And that gives you a kind ofstrength that you really can't
be threatened. When Jesus isyour, your your core, there's
nothing the enemy can do to toit can't take anything away. He
(09:09):
can't. The thing that youtreasure most in life is locked,
secure in heaven and can't betaken from you. So that's,
that's helpful. It gives you aboldness and a strength that I
don't think you'd haveotherwise. I was also in school
the whole time and there's asubject. And I don't think it's
a subject of this podcast, butmaybe in the future that God has
(09:31):
been addressing in my life withmy ministry partner, Desi Baker,
who lives in Arizona, I live inCalifornia. He is the prophetic
gift to my apostolic and we havetraveled together and learned a
lot of breakthroughs. Becausethe Bible says that the
foundation of the church is theapostles and prophets. So I have
been really delving into why isthat how does that work? Why
(09:55):
don't they get along and how canwe make them get along? And it's
been helpful and we've walked atthe other end of it with a lot
of insights that I haven't seenanywhere else. And so that's,
that's been a lot of the lesson.
And then also, I think I have abetter patience and
understanding with people, Ithink I'm less, less upset when
people do the wrong thing. I seethe spirits behind what's going
(10:19):
on. And I get mad at them ratherthan the people they're using, I
think those are some of thequick lessons and he shifted my
focus to young people who areunengaged with church. So I'm no
longer focusing at trying tochange church. Now I'm looking
at starting something withpeople who aren't even in
church. So it's that changed alot.
Joshua Johnson (10:43):
I think let's get you know, Layton Ford always
says that, you know, is laterlife is about mentoring, and,
and smaller groups and pouringinto leaders so that they can
actually continue to moveforward. And he talks about
descending into greatness, andthe which, you know, he had a
big platform of let's speak to1000s and 1000s of people on a
(11:05):
stage. And then he actually wentinto the quiet and descended
into greatness. And it seemslike a journey to significance
is quite of what, what justhappened with you. A journey to
significance is actually goinglow and going small. And it's
(11:26):
quite the opposite, then what alot of people think, as they
think what is significant. So asyou think about what is
significant within the kingdom,what what is significant within
the kingdom.
Neil Cole (11:40):
Well, I used to be a very task driven, apostolic
person, I come up with a vision,it used to be big, then develop
objectives and milestones toreach and goals and how quickly
they need to be reached. And I'dset out to do it. And God used
that many times over. There wereactually moments during this
(12:02):
time where I felt like well, youknow, I've actually accomplished
everything I set out to do. SoLord, if you want to take me now
I'd be ready. And he said, No,it's about time. I've changed in
that I've become far morerelational in my approach to
things. Everything is about therelationships. I guess, I came
to the realization that when wedo finally go and meet Jesus,
(12:26):
he's not going to ask us what weaccomplished. He's going to ask
us, who did you love? And howwell did you love them? And
that's been a more of my focusof late. And I think it's my, my
wife's very Shepherd, like, andmy closest friend is a shepherd.
And so I think it's rubbed offon me. In fact, in the a pest
(12:48):
scenario, Apostle, prophet,evangelist, Shepherd and
teacher, my profit gift droppeddown. It used to be my
secondary, and now it's like my,my fourth, and shepherd is
bumped up to third and teachers.
Second, it's a big shift thathappened during this transition
Joshua Johnson (13:04):
time. Take us into the big picture of this and
journeys, what are these thesejourneys towards significance?
What are the Paul Paul'sjourneys? And how does that
relate to you to our times oflife?
Neil Cole (13:18):
Well, most of the time, we look at Pete pocalypse,
or we look at Paul as a teacher.
He is an outstanding teacher.
But the reason he's such a goodteacher is he's first a learner.
And so I approached the book ofActs, looking at how Paul is a
learner. So we tend to take oursaints and put a halo around
(13:39):
them, and they can never doanything wrong. And I don't
think that that's fair to Paul,one of Paul's greatest strengths
is his weaknesses, ability tolearn. And so I, I just
basically follow his life andhow he learns I start at his
birth, and how God had alreadyinvested in him so many things
that prepared him for a futurehe didn't know have any idea
(14:03):
would be in or in, in line forhim, that I look at how he came
to Christ and the earlyformation of his life. That's
chapter two of the book. Andthen we just go from journey to
journey. Now No, most of usdon't get to have clear
delineation marks between onephase of maturity and the other
(14:24):
like Paul, you're, but for somereason, it matched his first
journey, second journey, thirdjourney, and then what I call
his fourth journey, which is hisRoman imprisonment. Most of us
don't think of his Romanimprisonment as a journey, but I
assure you, Paul did and evensays to the Philippians, this is
my greatest, the greatestopportunity for the gospel of
(14:45):
all my trips my whole life, andhe was incarcerated the whole
time. And so I delve into howthat happened, how he was most
effective and prisoner Rome andhow he managed to accomplish
that so it follows his lifepattern. His first journey was
his early journey. And it wasn'tas fruitful as his later
(15:06):
journeys would be. But I commentin the book that you don't want
your first journeys in life tobe your most fruitful, because
then the rest of your life isdownhill. You know, it's sad
when we see young starlets areonly 25 years old. And they're
still there already looking backon their lives and their
greatest moments in the past. Orwhat's worse than that is to see
(15:29):
a 70 year old man still dressedin leather pants dancing on the
stage singing a song when he was19. You know, we don't want our
greatest success to be young. Wewant that to be a stage of
development and learning. Andthat's what it was for Paul. God
is more interested not in whathe gets out of you, but what he
puts into your death stage. So Ihighlight that his second
(15:52):
journey is all about trainingand education. And that training
came through painful experienceshe he was silenced in Asia, he
was blocked in Bithynia, he werepropped up, he was beaten with
rods and Philippi. He was leftlittle alone in Athens. And then
(16:13):
he was afraid in Corinth and Godused all of those things, to
teach him the characterformation give him the internal
spiritual authority andstrength. So that on his third
journey, he can go up againstthe greatest spiritual forces
the world has ever seen and comeout the other side victorious.
(16:35):
So all of that is spelled outthroughout the
Joshua Johnson (16:37):
book. It's pretty fascinating that we could
see the delineation betweenPaul's tourney's that it could
match up for us. So as if wewant to start to reflect on our
own journeys, and what ourspiritual formation is. And in
regards to Paul's journeysthemselves, what are some
questions for us set, ask aboutour early years, the way that
(16:57):
God had, you know, put in us thethings that he has set apart for
us to do on this earth? Like,how do how do we start to think
about those early years? Well, I
Neil Cole (17:09):
don't know about you.
But in my early years, I waspraying and asking God for great
success and God, God saved mefrom me. If I had had all the
success I wanted in my earlierjourneys, I would not be who I
am today, and our ministry wouldbe much more localized and much
more about me and less aboutJesus. So I think there are
(17:31):
things in our mind that need tobe it's not just things that
need to be put in. But also heneeds to remove blockages and
pride and ego that you mighteven mask as spiritual, but is
still a problem. When you do seeearly success. And people it's
kind of sad, because they theycarry all this success on week
(17:53):
on a week platform that doesn'thave the character to hold it.
And then you end up seeing itall come crashing down. And
we're seeing this almost weekly,in the church in the world where
leaders that started off so wellare ending poorly. And it's
because, you know, once you seethat early success, then
(18:15):
everything in life is tellingyou to repeat that. Inside, you
have yourself saying, Oh, maybethat was just a happenstance
that was an accident. And Icouldn't repeat it. So I've got
to try to do it again, and proveto me in the world that I can do
it. And then you'd haveeverybody around you saying
don't change a thing, becausewhat you did work. And so
everything in life is tellingyou don't grow, don't change
(18:38):
stay the way you are. And that'sthe opposite of what spiritual
life is supposed to be. So Ithink success in the earlier
days is is is actually a biggerproblem than we realize. And
it's hard to transition fromsuccess to more success. It's
easier to transition fromfailure to success than it is in
(19:00):
order for you to go from successto success. You have to kill
that early success. And nobody'swilling to do that. So we don't
see people progressing. So theseare the things Paul had to go
through. Yeah.
Joshua Johnson (19:19):
So how do you kill that success, that early
success for those that wereworldly successful? Or, you
know, they see in their mindwere successful? How do you
transition and say, I have tokill that success and continue
to grow and mature and have forme what God has for me, so that
(19:39):
we could be lifelong learnersand we could grow in maturity.
Neil Cole (19:44):
Well, I don't even think you have the ability to
come up with a new idea untilyou let go of the old idea. You
know, we think the wordrepentance is thrown around and
usually it just means I'm sorryfor my sin and I won't do it
again. And that's not whatmetanoia really means. And Alan
Hurst, my good friend has a goodbook called The metanoia. On
(20:06):
that, where it's an actualparadigm shift where your own
mind has changed from one thingto the other. In order for that
to happen, you have to let go ofwhat made you successful in the
first stage. And that's thehardest thing for people to do.
And so you're risking all thatsuccess on the the wish that
(20:29):
maybe this new thing will be assuccessful. And that's a lot to
ask anybody to to risk, and theywon't usually do it. But men, if
you really do believe that Jesushas risen from the dead, and has
given the Holy Spirit to all ofus, then I think you you follow
(20:49):
Christ to the end, you don'tfollow success. Success is a
shallow, weak goal anyway, it'sfickle to begin with, it will
leave you anyway, whether youchoose to die to it or not. It's
not actually as as satisfying toone's heart as you think it is.
(21:12):
So I think we should be morewilling to die to the success,
but it's often oftentimes veryhard for people to do that. How
Joshua Johnson (21:20):
do we get into that metanoia process, then? Is
it through community thosearound us? Is it through, like
finding our identity insomething other than the success
that we have is like finding ouridentity in Christ alone, like,
I am now a beloved child of him,instead of I am this great,
successful person? Well, how,where do we find those things to
(21:42):
enter into metanoia? All
Neil Cole (21:44):
of those things are important. I think, first of
all, I think for all of us, andthis is this has to be learned
through experience. We have tobe more in love with Jesus than
we are with our success. And ifwe follow Jesus, step by step,
he will lead you into themetanoia. Like for Paul, he made
(22:09):
minor tweaks to his strategyfrom the first journey to the
second journey to try andcompensate for the mistakes made
in the first journey, which wereweak left weak churches that
were utterly dependent uponleadership, and so they got led
astray and the Galatianchurches. So instead, he
recruited a bigger team on asecond journey and dropped
leaders off where we went. So heleft Luke in Philippi, and
(22:31):
Timothy and Thessalonica, andSilas and Bria, and then he got
to Athens. He's all by himself.
He did the same thing everyChristian leaders done. They see
the the need, and they recruitthe best leaders they can. And
for Paul, it was a highstandard, he wouldn't let John
Mark be part of that team. Hesaid No, to John Mark, and it
cost him Barnabas. But he wantedthe best team to lead these guys
(22:56):
behind so he could keep going.
But when he got to Athens, herealized, as we all will do,
there is a ceiling to thatstrategy. It doesn't multiply
it, it only goes so far, it's adead end. And there's always
more ministry we have and thereis leaders to find. And so
(23:18):
through that experience, Godthen taught him I have a better
way. And actually, there's onlyone sentence that Jesus gives to
him in Corinth, he says, Do notbe afraid. So he speaks to the
fear he felt in court. He said,I will not let anybody harm you.
He speaks to the pain that heexperienced in Philippi. With
(23:39):
the beating of rods, he said, goon speaking you speaks to the
his speaking to the silencingyou experience and out in Asia.
He says, Keep on going, which isspeaking to the blockage, he had
an Bithynia and then he says Iam always with you. He speaks to
the loneliness he felt inKorean. And then he finally
(24:02):
comes up with a strategy tospeak to his weakness in his
strategy. He says I have manypeople in this place. Don't
recruit your leaders from otherchurches, find them in the
harvest and release them to theharvest. And now Paul starts to
multiply instead of just add abig shift in his life. Jesus led
(24:24):
him to that place, but he didn'tdownload that information back
in Antioch before he started. Helet him feel the bankruptcy of
his strategy and the pain thatcame from it before God spoke to
him. Because then he was readyto hear it. And we all need to
get to the place where we'repain brings us to the place
(24:45):
we're ready to hear what he hasto say. And so that's why I say
the way to get to metanoia isjust to follow Jesus step by
step. It will take you tothrough painful experiences, and
then you'll be ready to hearwhat he has to say So then on
your third journey, everythingcomes together. And it's
amazing. It's remarkable. Hegoes to an emphasis, he stays in
(25:08):
one city for three years. And inthose three years, every person,
man, woman, child, Jew, orGentile in all of Asia Minor
hears the gospel. And Pauldoesn't have to carry the gospel
everywhere. 4000 square miles isreached in just three years,
because of lessons he learnedbefore.
Joshua Johnson (25:27):
Okay, me, I, I want to train my missionaries to
do that. And their firstjourney, but is it possible,
they're going to have to walkthrough their own journeys? How
do we do that, then? If we're,as we're training, if we're
training missionaries, or we'retraining people to go and be
(25:51):
able to do this type of work,this ministry work. And we know
that Paul has learned and so welearn these lessons from Paul,
and so we try to enter into it.
What are the journeys for us toget to that space? How do we,
how do we balance that of likesaying, we're gonna go to our
final journey, or our thirdjourney before we enter into our
(26:12):
first journey?
Neil Cole (26:16):
Yeah, I don't, I don't think you can get to your
third journey without goingthrough your first and your
second journey. That's just youcan't skip these things. And you
don't want to. It's the it's thefoundation laid in the earlier
journeys, that brings that kindof fruitfulness, and that
insight into the third journey.
So you don't want to skip theseclasses. They're there. They're
really important. Now on Paul'sthird journey, he had gone
(26:39):
through the first journey, thesecond journey when he got
there. Now on the first journeywas only one team Paul and
Barnabas. On the second journey,there were two teams Barnabas
and Mark went one way, and Pauland Silas one another. So now
there's twice as many teams onthe third journey. He stayed in
Ephesus, and there were teamsgoing everywhere. Now those
(27:01):
people like Epaphras, going tothe Lycus, River Valley,
starting the church andColossus, I hear propolis and
Laodicea. This is first journey.
Right. And that's his firstexperience. So he's a brand new
believer going out there, doingall that he's got several more
journeys to go. And we find outwhen Paul's in prison in Rome,
(27:25):
the path versus also imprisoned.
So you know, he had to gothrough his second journey, just
like Paul did. We don't knowabout his third journey. But you
know, there, we do discover thatyou can be a part of someone's
third journey, even if it's onlyyour first if you're if you're
being mentored and coached bysomeone who's been through it.
(27:48):
And that can mean you're a partof this great fruitfulness even
know, it's not carried on yourcharacter, your spiritual
formation, you're just a part ofit. And I think those of us who
go further in in our journeys,you know, it's one thing, it's
great to find a leader who trustGod, it's even better to find a
(28:10):
leader that God trusts. Andthat's why He tests us so often.
It's not because he doesn't knowthe answer. It's because we
don't know the answer. And wehave to go through the testing
come out the other side, andthen God can entrust us with
greater things. To him who isfaithful with a little I'll give
(28:31):
much. And so Paul had beenfaithful with a few things. So
each journey is the scope of hisof his ministry increased to a
point where on his fourthjourney was all the Gentile
world heard the gospel. Andthat's not just then, but even
today, we still read his lettersto this day, he still hadn't the
(28:54):
ministry in our lives, 2000years later. So the people that
were came to Christ on the thirdjourney got to experience the
fruitfulness of Paul's thirdjourney, even though it would
have been just their early days.
Joshua Johnson (29:11):
So then in your journeys and your spiritual
formation, and as God is saying,You you're trying to write to a
new audience, a differentaudience, and you're working
with the nuns that don't havechurch affiliation, or religious
affiliation. It looks a littlebit like what Paul's journey is
where he going to the Gentiles,they don't have that
(29:33):
affiliation. Right. So what arethe things that you are taking
and gleaning from that as you'reyou transitioned from focusing
on church leaders into focusingon on nuns and religiously
unaffiliated?
Neil Cole (29:48):
So I think in the in the not too distant future, this
is my speculation. And like Isaid, on my team, I'm not the
Prophet. I have a prophet andhe's smarter than I am in those
ways. But I'll just fit yourguests. I think in the future,
people will not be asinstitutional as their parents
or grandparents were. In fact, Ithink they will be anti
(30:11):
institutional. So the moment youput a brand or a logo on it,
they're going to be turned offby that. So we're gonna have to
approach ministry, not asorganizational, but more organic
and more relational, then thanwe did in the past. And so
that's something God's how toshape in me, I think it'll be
(30:35):
something that the love needs tobe. I mean, this is true at
every generation, love needs tobe the core of what we do and
why. But I think we've lost thatthrough the years. And we may
say, we love. But love is notproven by how you take care of
the people closest to you. It'show you take care of the people
furthest from you. And I thinkthat that's going to have to be
(30:58):
evident if people are going tobuy into our message. So if we
don't have that kind of love forthe marginalized, the weak, the
vulnerable, the people who can'tspeak for themselves, then our
message isn't worth listeningto. And I would agree with that.
So I think that's going to beimportant. I think this is true,
(31:18):
I think there will be a whateveris going to happen, it will be
global, it will not be regional,and will not be national will be
global. But I also think it willnot start in the States. I think
we've had our day in thesunshine. And we didn't, we
didn't steward Well, what Godgave to us. So I think we may
(31:39):
benefit from the awakened, butit will come to us from other
parts of the world rather thanbe bored from us. These are some
thoughts on how, yeah,
Joshua Johnson (31:47):
I think we're seeing that already. That these
things are are happening, thethings the awaking even the
things that are happening inwar, have more Muslims have come
to Christ recently than ever, inthe history of, of Islam. And
it's pretty amazing parts of theworld and the places
Neil Cole (32:05):
we at least likely see, we're seeing fruit all over
the world. And I think it'salready happening. I just think
that we're we're going to be thelast ones on the bus rather than
the first ones.
Joshua Johnson (32:19):
So it's good for us. It's good for us that we get
instead of the back of the bus.
And I think it's time as well.
And so how, how do we move thenfrom institution into all of
life, love, discipleship andformation in in all of life,
Neil Cole (32:38):
you know, my experience. And you know, I'm
not a young millennial, or evena Gen Z, you know, I'm a holder
guide now. So I may not be theright person to be asking. But I
think I think we just need tomake it about focusing on Jesus,
and not the church, focusing onthe person, not the
(33:01):
organization. So just alwaysmake it about Jesus and approach
everything relationally becauselove is not an organizational
objective. Love is alwayssomething a person has or does,
it's not something yourorganization has or does. And
now granted, if the people inyour organization are loving,
(33:23):
then the organization will havethat element to it. But it
doesn't start with a missionstatement. And core objectives
and, and values. It starts withus a person dies to themselves
and sees the image of Christ andothers and loves them and is
willing to die for them. And Ithink that that has to be come
(33:44):
contagious in us so that itisn't really about the name or
the logo or the identity of anorganization. In fact, I think
the new generation will berepelled by all of that. So
putting the monkey suit on oversomething beautiful is not a
good idea. Let's just leave thebeautiful thing alone and let it
(34:08):
multiply and spread and becomecontagious without putting that
brand or logo on it. And that'sthat's going to be hard for
Boomer and Gen X leaders toaccept because they've been told
all their lives that it's aboutcreating this corporate identity
and that's not what it is about.
It's about loving this neighborand loving this person who's my
enemy. And, and you you can'treally do that as an
(34:33):
organization, you have to dothat as a as a follower of Jesus
and nothing more. So it will besimplified. It will be
disciplemaking it'll bementoring and and learning and
it will be alongside one anotherin families rather than
organizations. That's how I seeit happening. I've been
(34:53):
preparing for this my wholelife. You know if you read my
earlier books, I was alreadybringing us to a more organic
approach and to movements anddisciple making and making it
more simple. So I think I'mready for this. I don't want to
have another organization, Idon't want to carry another
(35:14):
organization. I don't want tolodge a weekly event, those
things don't aren't attractiveto me in any way whatsoever. And
I think there are others likeme, that are feeling the same
way.
Joshua Johnson (35:28):
Yes, there there are. And there'll be more and
more and more as we moveforward. You know, so then,
let's take some people throughthis through journey. So if I'm,
if I am now I'm going to putmyself into a disciple maker
mode. How can I help people gothrough these journeys? What
(35:49):
does it look like for me as adisciple maker mentor, to help
people walk through theirjourneys of life information.
Neil Cole (36:00):
So what what's important to know is that of the
heroes in the Bible that we readabout since we were kids, only
1/3 finished well, and BobbyClinton later said, 1/3 is far
too high a number for today'sleaders, were closer to 20 25%,
at best that finish well,that's, that's really
(36:23):
terrifying, if you think aboutit, and those are our leaders.
So if our leaders aren'tfinishing well, I'm pretty sure
those who are following them arefollowing to the same
destination, not finishing well.
So you have to have it in yourmind that I want to be someone
whose last lap is their bestlap, I want it to be that that I
get better with time. So what Isay in the book is that
(36:46):
finishing well is not somethingyou do at the end of your life,
it's what you choose to do everyday of your life, we have to
have a framework, a mind amental shift, where we are
always thinking, Okay, I don'twant this journey to be my best
journey. I want to learn as muchas I can during this journey, so
that when I get to the next one,I'm even more fruitful. But even
(37:07):
there, I want to keep learning.
And when I talk with people,they always want to move
themselves further along thanthey really are. And I like to
sober them up by saying youdon't want to be in a later
journey, because you want a longlife. If you get through this
real quick, that means you'regoing to have a short life. So
(37:29):
don't be in such a hurry to die.
But take your time, and takeyour lessons and go through it
at the right pace. So first ofall, have it in your mind that
you want to finish well.
Secondly, be a learner for life,always look to learn more. I
don't. It's so sad how manypeople I find my own age. That
(37:52):
stopped learning a long timeago. And it's almost common to
talk to Christians who say, youknow, if only I had the
excitement I had when I firstbelieved? Well, why don't you
Jesus hasn't changed? The stakesare the same. Why have you
changed because you're the onlyone the only part of the
equation that's changed. Youknow, I just don't think people
(38:15):
have the stamina to keeplearning. And so maybe we need
to work hard at discipliningourselves. So that we have that
strength so that we do keeplearning, always have an
objective to learn. And maybeyou need to start learning how
to play the guitar. You don't.
Here's one, I recently decidedon my bucket list. I want to do
(38:35):
stand up comedy. The peopleclosest to me think that's
crazy. But I want to test myselfto try something I've never done
before. Someday I want to singkaraoke, I've never done it.
I've never sung in front ofpeople. I don't have the best
voice. But I want to test myselfI want to learn I want to become
(38:56):
better at something. What is it?
You know, maybe it's woodworkingor gardening or something. But
maybe it's more serious thanthat. Maybe you want to learn
how to make disciples from lostpeople. So that they are
followers of Christ and you'regoing to keep trying until you
succeed at that. I think, youknow, we need to be the that a
(39:19):
learner for life that wants tofinish well, that disciplines
themselves. Then, fourthly, weneed to mentor others and be
mentored ourselves. And if youdon't have a mentor, go find one
or two or five. And they don'thave don't look for one person
to have everything you need tobe your mentor. Because that
person doesn't exist exceptJesus. So, see a quality you
(39:44):
like in someone and ask them ifthey can show you how to have
that same quality or seek tofind someone who opens doors for
you. Or, you know, there areseveral of my mentors I've never
met in life. They died before Iwas born. I look forward to me
meeting John Wesley, I lookforward to meeting the Apostle
Paul because they are mentors tome from their writings and their
(40:07):
history. There's, you know,don't limit the mentor to just
one person, but find mentors.
But don't just be a dead seathat receives become a mentor
for others. And all that meansis, figure out what you're good
at and give it away. These arethe kinds of things that will
help you get through thejourney. So likes
Joshua Johnson (40:30):
Great, yeah.
Well, Neil, if you really wantto, to learn how to do some
karaoke if you want to singright now? No, I'm not yet ready
just yet. I gotta practice italready. Yeah. All right. Maybe
next time, maybe next time,you're gonna be able to
Neil Cole (40:48):
sing out. My kids or my grandkids all know how I
sing. But I don't think Russellwas ready for it yet. Get there,
we'll get there. But I do wantto test myself. I want to put
myself in places where I'm doingsomething I've never done
before. And I think that'simportant for all of us. To see
ourselves as always willing totry new things and learn new
(41:09):
things. Maybe learn a newlanguage, maybe, you know,
there's, there's things you canlearn later in life. I just
started up another degree. Youknow, three useless degrees are
not enough. I need a fourth. Youknow, it's never too late to go
back to school, I guess. That's
Joshua Johnson (41:31):
right. So if you have somebody that are thinking
about their life, they'rethey're young, maybe you have a
graduate of high school, a highschool graduate, now they're
thinking about their journeys,think about their lives, where
where's a good place for them tostart within these, this
journey?
Neil Cole (41:51):
Okay, well, first of all, you got to know you've got
to learn God's voice. You've gotto hear God's voice, be attuned
to it. There are people who arein love with scripture, but they
don't love God's voice. Andthat's possible. Paul was like
that, before the Damascus Roadexperience. He was an expert on
the Scriptures. He kneweverything the Scripture said.
(42:14):
But he he was kicking againstthe goads, which means he was
pushing away the actual voice ofGod. So you have to get to the
place where you accept and hearGod's voice, and follow it.
Whatever he says, you'll do it.
So that's the first and foremostthing so you can love the
scriptures and not love thevoice of God. But you can't love
(42:35):
the voice of God and not lovethe scriptures. Because you'll
find that voice that you love,in every syllable that's there.
So that's the key find and valuethe voice of God. In the book of
Acts, the the word used by Luke,to describe the movement of, of
faith that was spreading was theword Lagace, the word word, and
(42:57):
the Word of God spread and theword of God multiplied, and the
Word of God grew andstrengthened. This is the
expression for movement.
Basically, it's the voice ofGod. It's the message and voice
of God. So the first thing foryou is to become more acquainted
(43:17):
with hearing his voice andbecoming someone who radically
obeys. I think we we don't valueradical obedience in our life.
And I don't mean just that you.
You don't eat and you don'tdrink in these foods. You don't
drink those drinks. You don't dodrugs. I mean, that's all good
and everything. Don't do sex,all that. But the thing is, is
(43:38):
radical obedience is not justwhat you don't do. It's what you
actually do this radical. I lovethe story. And this is in the
newer journeys is brought tolife, where Barnabas is sent by
the Jerusalem church to Antiochto check out what's going on
with this new church. And hedoes that. His charter is to go
(44:00):
see what it's all right, and getword back. But he doesn't do
that. He breaks protocol. And hegoes walking minimum 300 miles
off to Tarsus to find someone noone's ever heard of named Saul,
edit the horn to Luke'slanguage. He had to go looking
(44:23):
for Saul. He wasn't easy to fly.
So it was probably much morethan 300 miles. And everybody
there was probably saying, Whywould you do that? Where are you
going? That's not what you weretold to do. What but it was what
he was told to do by the HolySpirit. Are you willing to go
300 miles out of your way on awhim just because the Holy
(44:44):
Spirit says so we need to getthat place. We need to be like,
like Barnabas in that regard.
And I think when you do youknow, in the spirit realm,
everything you see touch feelsSmell Taste, is only half of
what's real. Oh, there's anotherworld. That's this, let's hear
that we don't see touch, feelthe unseen realm. And in that
(45:06):
world, there are beings that areangels, and there are demonic or
fallen angels and demons. And inthat world, they are accustomed,
they're all about us. They'reministering servants to us, or
they're our enemy. But they'reeither way they're focused on
us. And when we live predictablepatterns, that you know, the
(45:27):
angels don't have to pull outtheir sword very often. And the
demons are just sort oforchestrating all the events in
our lives, because it's easilypredictable, when you suddenly
take off in a direction thatnobody expects. Suddenly, now
the angels are pulling up theirswords, and they're getting to
(45:48):
work in ways they don't usuallyget to thrive. And the demons
are falling back on their heels,and they're on defense instead
of offense. And everythingshifts in the spiritual world,
because of radical obedience,like Barnabas hat, we have to be
willing to listen to Jesus andDO what He says immediately. And
I in fact, I think ifpersecution comes, and I believe
(46:12):
it will, it used to be whenpersecution comes that your
neighbor or your loved one orsomebody you work with, would
turn you in. But today, you'realready turned in, they know all
about you. They know what youthink they know more about you
than your spouse, and they knowwhere you are. They they can
track you at any moment. So thekind of persecution we're going
(46:36):
to have in the future is goingto require we'd be much more
radical, and live much moresupernatural type lives. And I
think we should begin practicingthat kind of lifestyle now. And
so get to hear God's voice andthen radically obey it, no
matter what he's telling you todo, even if he makes you a fool.
(46:57):
You know, I'm sure everyone wassaying Barnabas, that's that's
not the right thing to do.
That's not what you were told todo. by Peter, James and John,
both for Barnabas, he had ahigher copper, he had a higher
authority he was going to listento and think of it, if he hadn't
gone to get Paul, Barnabas wouldbe a small footnote in our
(47:19):
bytes. In fact, what would x bewithout Paul. So because of that
simple, radical obedience,everything in history changed.
Joshua Johnson (47:29):
That's so good.
And you see that throughoutPaul's journeys to that he hears
the Holy Spirit hears from God,he moves directions, he goes to
different places because of whathe hears from the voice of God.
And that is, you know, we, welike to talk strategy, we like
to talk, you know, this is ourmission, this is our mission
saving, this is how we're goingto go about doing things. If we
(47:51):
could get back to that principleof hearing from God doing what
he says, interacts with theSpiritual World, and live
spiritual lives. And that way,we're gonna see a lot of
incredible things. It's gonna bepretty amazing. Let's get to it.
Let's get to it.
Neil Cole (48:11):
If you if you need to learn to hear God's voice, then
time in the scriptures. I mean,just devour scriptures. I try to
read 25 to 30 chapters a week,and I've been doing that for
over 30 years. And I read booksrepetitively, you know, reading
the book, the Bible through anda year, you're gonna get Romans
(48:33):
once in before you have time tothink about it, you're already
into First Corinthians. So itjust washes over you, which is
not bad, that's better than thealternative. But man, if you
read Romans eight times in amonth, it starts to make sense
to you. So I, I suggest thatrepetitive deep reading of
(48:54):
Scripture, and then practicelistening to God, I even
recommend, go for a drive in thecar without a destination and
only turn when you have animpression in your heart to
turn, turn left turn right, seewhere it takes you practice
hearing that voice andresponding to it. When I do hear
(49:17):
God's voice, it's a thoughtcoming from another direction.
My train of thought is likethis, and another thing comes in
a different direction. And it'sa better idea. It's a holy idea.
And it it, it's obviously God,it couldn't be me, I'm not that
smart. That's how you starthearing God's voice and then you
respond to that with obedience.
So I you know, I always saythis, you could sum up all my
(49:42):
writings and all my teaching inone sentence, listen to Jesus
and DO what He says. And if wejust did that the world would
change real quickly.
Joshua Johnson (49:53):
Amen. I must have gotten it from you because
I say that all the time. Andthat's that's all i i say they
end up there. Every time I trainor do something, I was like,
just listen to Jesus do what hesays. And it's so important.
Neil, what's, what's a hope thatyou have for your readers of
journeys?
Neil Cole (50:13):
Well, I think journeys, in the initial read,
it will bring to light things inthe book of Acts that maybe you
didn't even bother questioning.
Like, why was Paul beat withrods when he's a Roman citizen?
He shouldn't have been, therewas a reason why, why did the
Holy Spirit say don't go todon't speak the word in Asia? I
think there's a reason. And inmy digging, I've discovered some
(50:36):
of those, and I present those.
So I think you'll have betterinsight in X and even the
epistles and how they fit byreading the book. But I think it
goes beyond that this is notjust a roadmap for the
scriptures, it's a roadmap forour own spiritual formation. So
it may give you ambitions forthe future, and a goal to finish
(50:57):
well, but at the same time, helpput into place, What is God
doing with this? Why am Iexperiencing this illness? Now?
Why is my loved one so unhappy?
And how does that fit into myown spiritual formation, what
God's doing in my life? Theseare the kinds of things that
suddenly they fall into place,and you realize God has a plan.
(51:18):
And if I obey Him and followHim, it will make sense, but it
won't beforehand. So that comesfrom this book. And I also think
it there's missional strategiesthat come out of what Paul had
to learn how to do missionsbetter. And he did each time he
got better. And it's I bring tolight literal practices that he
(51:41):
did that made things better. Sothere's even practical ideas
like that. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (51:50):
it's, it's really, really good. I highly
recommend journeys. And to diveinto it, I think it's going to
it's helpful for all of ourspiritual formation to move
forward in these journeys andnot jump ahead and take were way
farther down the line than weactually are. What's your one
hope for the body of Christ? Atthe moment? Is there anything
(52:10):
that you would love to say tothe body of Christ?
Neil Cole (52:15):
Well, I think God is on the move right now. I travel
a lot overseas, and I've been toplaces I'd never been booked to
before. In the last year. I'vebeen to Korea, Azerbaijan, Kaga
Stan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Iwas in Madagascar and Mauritius.
(52:35):
And India, I've never been toIndia until this year. And
everywhere I'm going, I see thesame things. I'm seeing young
people, teenagers, I did atraining, where the oldest
person I was training wasprobably 25. And the youngest
was probably 13. And they loveJesus and they want to be used
(52:55):
by him. Yeah, I want you tomention certain places I've been
to where there's a movementhappening right under the noses
of the megachurch movement, andthey don't even know it's
happening. And it's all youngpeople, and they're all coming
to Christ. And they're not goingto go to that church. They're
going to meet in homes asfamilies, and they're, they're
(53:16):
so excited about Jesus. And whenthis gets unleashed on the
world, it's it's going to bephenomenal, but it's not going
to look like it's not going tolook like the Jesus people
movement, ending up in a bunchof mega churches. They're going
to be mobile, decentralized,relational, that infiltrates
(53:40):
rather than gathers. So I thinkthat's, that's going to be a
little bit different. And Ithink the world is going to help
us with that there. Once thisstarts, the spark starts to
spread. Persecution will comeall those who desire to live
godly in Christ Jesus will bepersecuted. And if we're not
suffering persecution that sayssomething about us. Well, this
(54:04):
will be Satan will try to stompthis out. And the more he tries,
the more decentralized it willbe, the more empowered it will
be, the more contagious it willbe. And I'm, I think our
greatest days are ahead of us.
But we have to stop celebratingwhat's behind us.
Joshua Johnson (54:22):
Amen. Amen.
Anywhere you want to pointpeople to where can they get
their book journeys? Yeah,
Neil Cole (54:30):
it's available, print, audio and ebook on
Amazon. That's the easiest placeto get it. Our website is
Starling initiatives.com Likethe bird starlings, I think the
reason we call it that as Ithink in the future, when you
see a murmuration of starlings,where they're all moving like
(54:51):
one when that happens, thereisn't a bird that has a
microphone that's saying, Okay,everybody go left now everybody
go right. There's no one callingthe shots, they're all
responding as one. I think inthe future, we're gonna have to
live that kind of spirituallife. And that's why we call it
Starling initiatives. So it'smerely connecting with people
(55:12):
around the world that are of alight mine still want to listen
to Jesus and DO what He says. Soyou can go to the website and
join on their Starlinginitiatives.com. And on Amazon
is where you'll find the book.
And I would appreciate it anyonewho likes it reads it, write a
review, because that's howpeople find out about it. I
(55:33):
think it's worth finding outabout his worth writing twice is
worth reading twice.
Joshua Johnson (55:40):
That's right.
It's fantastic. So Neil, thankyou for this conversation. Your
book is amazing. And I love togo through these journeys of
Paul to think through it, bothas missionary methods and
strategy. And as a spiritualformation of where I am in life
and how I could walk throughthat be a lifelong learner,
continue to move forward. I justpray that everybody will listen
(56:03):
to Jesus and DO what He says, tolive a life that is really bound
by God's voice, that we couldfollow him and all that we do.
You know, talking to you, to me,always gives me hope for the
church, even when we see peoplenot finishing well. And you see
a lot of leaders falling, rightnow. We know that Jesus is on
(56:27):
the move, and there's someincredible things happening all
around the world. And that we'regoing to see the hope of glory
some time, and it's going to befantastic. So, yeah,
institutions may not be in thefuture, but we do have faith,
discipleship community, and thelove of God within our lives. So
(56:49):
thank you, Neil.
Neil Cole (56:53):
Appreciate thank you for the opportunity to just
check it out. Sure. Yeah, yeah.
So I think in the in the not too distant future, this
(00:03):
is my speculation. And like Isaid, on my team, I'm not the
Prophet, I have a prophet. Andhe's smarter than I am in those
ways. But I'll just fit sureguests. I think in the future,
people will not be asinstitutional as their parents
or grandparents were. In fact, Ithink they will be anti
institutional. So the moment youput a brand or logo on it,
(00:26):
they're going to be turned offby that. So we're going to have
to approach ministry. Not asorganizational but more organic
and more relational than, thanwe did in the past.
Joshua Johnson (00:54):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ looked like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson, gotta
shift in culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
forget to hit the Follow buttonon your favorite podcast app to
be notified when new episodescome out each week, and go leave
(01:16):
a rating and review. It's easy,it only takes a second and it
helps us find new listeners tothe show. Just go to the Show
page on the app that you'reusing right now and hit five
stars. It really is that easy.
Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
this podcast with your friends,your family, your network? Tell
them how much you enjoy it. Letthem know they should be
listening as well. If you're newhere, welcome. If you want to
(01:38):
dig deeper find us on socialmedia at shifting culture
podcast, where I post videoclips and quotes and interact
with all of you. Previous guestson the show have included Alan
Hirsch, Michael frost and PamArland. You can go back listen
to those amazing episodes andmore. But today's guest is Neil
Cole. It is so good to have Neilback on the podcast. Neil Cole
(01:59):
is an author, missional thinkerand movement catalyst. His whole
work can be summed up in thisLISTEN to Jesus and DO what He
says. I say that all the time.
Neil's latest book is the focusof our conversation today. Its
journeys, discovering God'spaths of spiritual formation,
building to a strong finish. Inthis episode, Neil explores
(02:22):
spiritual formation andmissionary methods through a
discussion of Paul's journeys inthe book of Acts. He shares
insights from his book journeysabout Paul's progression, and
grow through each journey of hislife and ministry, as well as
lessons learned during a 13 yearperiod of silence. Neil applies
Paul's model to our ownspiritual journeys and finishing
well. We also talk shifting frominstitutions to more organic
(02:46):
relational ministry and hearingGod's voice and radically obey
his commands. So join us as wedive into the book of Acts, look
at Paul's journeys and see whatit has to do with our own life's
journeys and spiritualformation. Here is my
conversation with Neil Cole.
Neil, welcome back to theshifting culture. Really excited
to have you on. Thanks forjoining me.
Neil Cole (03:08):
Great to be back,
Joshua Johnson (03:09):
Joshua, excited to jump in and talk about your
book journeys. I'd love to knowwhere was the impetus for this
years ago, before you did thisreworking? Where did your
fascination with Paul'smissionary journeys and the
addition into spiritualformation into our own lives
(03:32):
take place? Right,
Neil Cole (03:34):
so many years ago, I can. Maybe the early mid 90s I
read? Well, the way we dodiscipleship is we read 20 to 30
chapters in Scripture every weekin the life transformation
group. And so we're reading X,all the way through every week,
repetitively for at least amonth, maybe two. And so I was
(03:56):
reading a lot of Acts. But Ialso had other reading, I was
reading J. Robert Clinton orBobby Clinton's book, The Making
of a leader. And I had also justread the classic St. Paul
missionary methods St. Paul'sare hours by Roland Allen. And
(04:16):
everything sort of congealed atonce in my brain, I saw
Clinton's framework ofleadership formation, put over
Paul's life, and I saw Paul'smethodology grow and change
whereas most books on Paul, theyjust summarize a method based on
all of his trips, I sawprogression and change and
(04:41):
growth and learning in bothlife. And that was a long time
ago, but I was nowhere nearmature enough to write the book.
I wrote an article, but I didn'thave enough experience to write
the book most almost all mybooks. I have to do them before
I write them. So I live life andthen in 2011 or 2010, I wrote
(05:02):
the book journeys tosignificance. And it was
published by Josie bass, whichis an imprint of Wiley, the
minute I held that book in myhand, you know, that's always a
special moment for the authorthat comes in the mail, you pick
it up, you hold it actually inyour hand, something you've
worked for years to get to thefinished product. And the moment
(05:23):
I held it, I felt God's Spiritwhisper in my ear. I'm about to
take you into a boundary or aperiod of transition. It didn't
tell me how long or why or whatit was about. But it was a 13
year transition. And he, hesilenced me in the US. He said,
No more gonna go to conferencesanymore. No more training in the
(05:45):
US. He shut down our offices.
You shut down my website. He hadme stopped blogging. Apparently,
he told everyone to stopblogging. He had me stopped
using social media other thanjust a picture of a cute
grandkid or a waterfall, no morecontent. So he basically
silenced me for 13 years. Hedidn't tell me how long it would
(06:07):
be I kept asking what did I dowrong? And he kept saying you
didn't do anything wrong. Thisis not about that. And I kept
asking, well, what's the lessonI have to learn to this kind of
lesson you can't just learn byreading a book. And so for 13
years, he let me do everything Iwanted to overseas. And that was
my focus. He changed my writingfrom writing to church leaders
(06:28):
to run into young peopleunengaged with church. And that
is a difference between the twobooks. He stripped everything
away, except Jesus. And and Ifound that was still enough. And
I got through it all, I couldn'tget a job, no matter how. Right
I was, before I even applied forWalmart and couldn't stock
(06:49):
shelves. They wouldn't hire me.
So the only job I had duringthose 13 years was I got to
drive Lyft kind of like Uber.
And that was a good experiencein some respects. But it was a
rough 13 years for both me andmy wife. But every bill got
paid. Every bill got paid ontime. My two daughters both got
(07:10):
had weddings, and they werebeautiful. Spared no expense.
God took care of us journeysignificance went on her print
faster than any book I've everwritten. And a lot of my dearest
and closest friends say it wasmy best book. So the publisher
gave me the rights back, and Iwas just going to reissue it and
(07:31):
republish it. And the Lord said,No, you need to rewrite it for
your new audience. So I startedtrying to just tiny, tweak it.
And he says, No, start overrewrite the whole thing. And I
did. And so it took me as longto rewrite journeys as writing
any book ever did. And when itcame out, I think it I think the
person that wrote this book isdifferent than the person who
(07:55):
wrote the first one. And I guessif the books worth writing
twice, it might be worth readingtwice.
Joshua Johnson (08:03):
I think so I love this new version of of what
you did. And I think that longjourney of a formation and in
the silent, and that changesthat really does change you
coming out of that long journey.
What are some things that thatdefined that space for you? What
did God do in your life?
Neil Cole (08:26):
Well, there's a number of things. It's not like
with God, it's not usually justone lesson or one thing. We can
all say, Jesus is my everything,but until everything else is
taken away, and and you know, Istill have my family and my home
is still so I'm very blessed,I'm suffering. But I have come
(08:47):
to realize that Jesus is enoughfor me, and I will, I will not
ever lose that. And that is themost important thing in my life.
And that gives you a kind ofstrength that you really can't
be threatened. When Jesus isyour, your your core, there's
nothing the enemy can do to toit can't take anything away. He
(09:09):
can't. The thing that youtreasure most in life is locked,
secure in heaven and can't betaken from you. So that's,
that's helpful. It gives you aboldness and a strength that I
don't think you'd haveotherwise. I was also in school
the whole time and there's asubject. And I don't think it's
a subject of this podcast, butmaybe in the future that God has
(09:31):
been addressing in my life withmy ministry partner, Desi Baker,
who lives in Arizona, I live inCalifornia. He is the prophetic
gift to my apostolic and we havetraveled together and learned a
lot of breakthroughs. Becausethe Bible says that the
foundation of the church is theapostles and prophets. So I have
been really delving into why isthat how does that work? Why
(09:55):
don't they get along and how canwe make them get along? And it's
been helpful and we've walked atthe other end of it with a lot
of insights that I haven't seenanywhere else. And so that's,
that's been a lot of the lesson.
And then also, I think I have abetter patience and
understanding with people, Ithink I'm less, less upset when
people do the wrong thing. I seethe spirits behind what's going
(10:19):
on. And I get mad at them ratherthan the people they're using, I
think those are some of thequick lessons and he shifted my
focus to young people who areunengaged with church. So I'm no
longer focusing at trying tochange church. Now I'm looking
at starting something withpeople who aren't even in
church. So it's that changed alot.
Joshua Johnson (10:43):
I think let's get you know, Layton Ford always
says that, you know, is laterlife is about mentoring, and,
and smaller groups and pouringinto leaders so that they can
actually continue to moveforward. And he talks about
descending into greatness, andthe which, you know, he had a
big platform of let's speak to1000s and 1000s of people on a
(11:05):
stage. And then he actually wentinto the quiet and descended
into greatness. And it seemslike a journey to significance
is quite of what, what justhappened with you. A journey to
significance is actually goinglow and going small. And it's
(11:26):
quite the opposite, then what alot of people think, as they
think what is significant. So asyou think about what is
significant within the kingdom,what what is significant within
the kingdom.
Neil Cole (11:40):
Well, I used to be a very task driven, apostolic
person, I come up with a vision,it used to be big, then develop
objectives and milestones toreach and goals and how quickly
they need to be reached. And I'dset out to do it. And God used
that many times over. There wereactually moments during this
(12:02):
time where I felt like well, youknow, I've actually accomplished
everything I set out to do. SoLord, if you want to take me now
I'd be ready. And he said, No,it's about time. I've changed in
that I've become far morerelational in my approach to
things. Everything is about therelationships. I guess, I came
to the realization that when wedo finally go and meet Jesus,
(12:26):
he's not going to ask us what weaccomplished. He's going to ask
us, who did you love? And howwell did you love them? And
that's been a more of my focusof late. And I think it's my, my
wife's very Shepherd, like, andmy closest friend is a shepherd.
And so I think it's rubbed offon me. In fact, in the a pest
(12:48):
scenario, Apostle, prophet,evangelist, Shepherd and
teacher, my profit gift droppeddown. It used to be my
secondary, and now it's like my,my fourth, and shepherd is
bumped up to third and teachers.
Second, it's a big shift thathappened during this transition
Joshua Johnson (13:04):
time. Take us into the big picture of this and
journeys, what are these thesejourneys towards significance?
What are the Paul Paul'sjourneys? And how does that
relate to you to our times oflife?
Neil Cole (13:18):
Well, most of the time, we look at Pete pocalypse,
or we look at Paul as a teacher.
He is an outstanding teacher.
But the reason he's such a goodteacher is he's first a learner.
And so I approached the book ofActs, looking at how Paul is a
learner. So we tend to take oursaints and put a halo around
(13:39):
them, and they can never doanything wrong. And I don't
think that that's fair to Paul,one of Paul's greatest strengths
is his weaknesses, ability tolearn. And so I, I just
basically follow his life andhow he learns I start at his
birth, and how God had alreadyinvested in him so many things
that prepared him for a futurehe didn't know have any idea
(14:03):
would be in or in, in line forhim, that I look at how he came
to Christ and the earlyformation of his life. That's
chapter two of the book. Andthen we just go from journey to
journey. Now No, most of usdon't get to have clear
delineation marks between onephase of maturity and the other
(14:24):
like Paul, you're, but for somereason, it matched his first
journey, second journey, thirdjourney, and then what I call
his fourth journey, which is hisRoman imprisonment. Most of us
don't think of his Romanimprisonment as a journey, but I
assure you, Paul did and evensays to the Philippians, this is
my greatest, the greatestopportunity for the gospel of
(14:45):
all my trips my whole life, andhe was incarcerated the whole
time. And so I delve into howthat happened, how he was most
effective and prisoner Rome andhow he managed to accomplish
that so it follows his lifepattern. His first journey was
his early journey. And it wasn'tas fruitful as his later
(15:06):
journeys would be. But I commentin the book that you don't want
your first journeys in life tobe your most fruitful, because
then the rest of your life isdownhill. You know, it's sad
when we see young starlets areonly 25 years old. And they're
still there already looking backon their lives and their
greatest moments in the past. Orwhat's worse than that is to see
(15:29):
a 70 year old man still dressedin leather pants dancing on the
stage singing a song when he was19. You know, we don't want our
greatest success to be young. Wewant that to be a stage of
development and learning. Andthat's what it was for Paul. God
is more interested not in whathe gets out of you, but what he
puts into your death stage. So Ihighlight that his second
(15:52):
journey is all about trainingand education. And that training
came through painful experienceshe he was silenced in Asia, he
was blocked in Bithynia, he werepropped up, he was beaten with
rods and Philippi. He was leftlittle alone in Athens. And then
(16:13):
he was afraid in Corinth and Godused all of those things, to
teach him the characterformation give him the internal
spiritual authority andstrength. So that on his third
journey, he can go up againstthe greatest spiritual forces
the world has ever seen and comeout the other side victorious.
(16:35):
So all of that is spelled outthroughout the
Joshua Johnson (16:37):
book. It's pretty fascinating that we could
see the delineation betweenPaul's tourney's that it could
match up for us. So as if wewant to start to reflect on our
own journeys, and what ourspiritual formation is. And in
regards to Paul's journeysthemselves, what are some
questions for us set, ask aboutour early years, the way that
(16:57):
God had, you know, put in us thethings that he has set apart for
us to do on this earth? Like,how do how do we start to think
about those early years? Well, I
Neil Cole (17:09):
don't know about you.
But in my early years, I waspraying and asking God for great
success and God, God saved mefrom me. If I had had all the
success I wanted in my earlierjourneys, I would not be who I
am today, and our ministry wouldbe much more localized and much
more about me and less aboutJesus. So I think there are
(17:31):
things in our mind that need tobe it's not just things that
need to be put in. But also heneeds to remove blockages and
pride and ego that you mighteven mask as spiritual, but is
still a problem. When you do seeearly success. And people it's
kind of sad, because they theycarry all this success on week
(17:53):
on a week platform that doesn'thave the character to hold it.
And then you end up seeing itall come crashing down. And
we're seeing this almost weekly,in the church in the world where
leaders that started off so wellare ending poorly. And it's
because, you know, once you seethat early success, then
(18:15):
everything in life is tellingyou to repeat that. Inside, you
have yourself saying, Oh, maybethat was just a happenstance
that was an accident. And Icouldn't repeat it. So I've got
to try to do it again, and proveto me in the world that I can do
it. And then you'd haveeverybody around you saying
don't change a thing, becausewhat you did work. And so
everything in life is tellingyou don't grow, don't change
(18:38):
stay the way you are. And that'sthe opposite of what spiritual
life is supposed to be. So Ithink success in the earlier
days is is is actually a biggerproblem than we realize. And
it's hard to transition fromsuccess to more success. It's
easier to transition fromfailure to success than it is in
(19:00):
order for you to go from successto success. You have to kill
that early success. And nobody'swilling to do that. So we don't
see people progressing. So theseare the things Paul had to go
through. Yeah.
Joshua Johnson (19:19):
So how do you kill that success, that early
success for those that wereworldly successful? Or, you
know, they see in their mindwere successful? How do you
transition and say, I have tokill that success and continue
to grow and mature and have forme what God has for me, so that
(19:39):
we could be lifelong learnersand we could grow in maturity.
Neil Cole (19:44):
Well, I don't even think you have the ability to
come up with a new idea untilyou let go of the old idea. You
know, we think the wordrepentance is thrown around and
usually it just means I'm sorryfor my sin and I won't do it
again. And that's not whatmetanoia really means. And Alan
Hurst, my good friend has a goodbook called The metanoia. On
(20:06):
that, where it's an actualparadigm shift where your own
mind has changed from one thingto the other. In order for that
to happen, you have to let go ofwhat made you successful in the
first stage. And that's thehardest thing for people to do.
And so you're risking all thatsuccess on the the wish that
(20:29):
maybe this new thing will be assuccessful. And that's a lot to
ask anybody to to risk, and theywon't usually do it. But men, if
you really do believe that Jesushas risen from the dead, and has
given the Holy Spirit to all ofus, then I think you you follow
(20:49):
Christ to the end, you don'tfollow success. Success is a
shallow, weak goal anyway, it'sfickle to begin with, it will
leave you anyway, whether youchoose to die to it or not. It's
not actually as as satisfying toone's heart as you think it is.
(21:12):
So I think we should be morewilling to die to the success,
but it's often oftentimes veryhard for people to do that. How
Joshua Johnson (21:20):
do we get into that metanoia process, then? Is
it through community thosearound us? Is it through, like
finding our identity insomething other than the success
that we have is like finding ouridentity in Christ alone, like,
I am now a beloved child of him,instead of I am this great,
successful person? Well, how,where do we find those things to
(21:42):
enter into metanoia? All
Neil Cole (21:44):
of those things are important. I think, first of
all, I think for all of us, andthis is this has to be learned
through experience. We have tobe more in love with Jesus than
we are with our success. And ifwe follow Jesus, step by step,
he will lead you into themetanoia. Like for Paul, he made
(22:09):
minor tweaks to his strategyfrom the first journey to the
second journey to try andcompensate for the mistakes made
in the first journey, which wereweak left weak churches that
were utterly dependent uponleadership, and so they got led
astray and the Galatianchurches. So instead, he
recruited a bigger team on asecond journey and dropped
leaders off where we went. So heleft Luke in Philippi, and
(22:31):
Timothy and Thessalonica, andSilas and Bria, and then he got
to Athens. He's all by himself.
He did the same thing everyChristian leaders done. They see
the the need, and they recruitthe best leaders they can. And
for Paul, it was a highstandard, he wouldn't let John
Mark be part of that team. Hesaid No, to John Mark, and it
cost him Barnabas. But he wantedthe best team to lead these guys
(22:56):
behind so he could keep going.
But when he got to Athens, herealized, as we all will do,
there is a ceiling to thatstrategy. It doesn't multiply
it, it only goes so far, it's adead end. And there's always
more ministry we have and thereis leaders to find. And so
(23:18):
through that experience, Godthen taught him I have a better
way. And actually, there's onlyone sentence that Jesus gives to
him in Corinth, he says, Do notbe afraid. So he speaks to the
fear he felt in court. He said,I will not let anybody harm you.
He speaks to the pain that heexperienced in Philippi. With
(23:39):
the beating of rods, he said, goon speaking you speaks to the
his speaking to the silencingyou experience and out in Asia.
He says, Keep on going, which isspeaking to the blockage, he had
an Bithynia and then he says Iam always with you. He speaks to
the loneliness he felt inKorean. And then he finally
(24:02):
comes up with a strategy tospeak to his weakness in his
strategy. He says I have manypeople in this place. Don't
recruit your leaders from otherchurches, find them in the
harvest and release them to theharvest. And now Paul starts to
multiply instead of just add abig shift in his life. Jesus led
(24:24):
him to that place, but he didn'tdownload that information back
in Antioch before he started. Helet him feel the bankruptcy of
his strategy and the pain thatcame from it before God spoke to
him. Because then he was readyto hear it. And we all need to
get to the place where we'repain brings us to the place
(24:45):
we're ready to hear what he hasto say. And so that's why I say
the way to get to metanoia isjust to follow Jesus step by
step. It will take you tothrough painful experiences, and
then you'll be ready to hearwhat he has to say So then on
your third journey, everythingcomes together. And it's
amazing. It's remarkable. Hegoes to an emphasis, he stays in
(25:08):
one city for three years. And inthose three years, every person,
man, woman, child, Jew, orGentile in all of Asia Minor
hears the gospel. And Pauldoesn't have to carry the gospel
everywhere. 4000 square miles isreached in just three years,
because of lessons he learnedbefore.
Joshua Johnson (25:27):
Okay, me, I, I want to train my missionaries to
do that. And their firstjourney, but is it possible,
they're going to have to walkthrough their own journeys? How
do we do that, then? If we're,as we're training, if we're
training missionaries, or we'retraining people to go and be
(25:51):
able to do this type of work,this ministry work. And we know
that Paul has learned and so welearn these lessons from Paul,
and so we try to enter into it.
What are the journeys for us toget to that space? How do we,
how do we balance that of likesaying, we're gonna go to our
final journey, or our thirdjourney before we enter into our
(26:12):
first journey?
Neil Cole (26:16):
Yeah, I don't, I don't think you can get to your
third journey without goingthrough your first and your
second journey. That's just youcan't skip these things. And you
don't want to. It's the it's thefoundation laid in the earlier
journeys, that brings that kindof fruitfulness, and that
insight into the third journey.
So you don't want to skip theseclasses. They're there. They're
really important. Now on Paul'sthird journey, he had gone
(26:39):
through the first journey, thesecond journey when he got
there. Now on the first journeywas only one team Paul and
Barnabas. On the second journey,there were two teams Barnabas
and Mark went one way, and Pauland Silas one another. So now
there's twice as many teams onthe third journey. He stayed in
Ephesus, and there were teamsgoing everywhere. Now those
(27:01):
people like Epaphras, going tothe Lycus, River Valley,
starting the church andColossus, I hear propolis and
Laodicea. This is first journey.
Right. And that's his firstexperience. So he's a brand new
believer going out there, doingall that he's got several more
journeys to go. And we find outwhen Paul's in prison in Rome,
(27:25):
the path versus also imprisoned.
So you know, he had to gothrough his second journey, just
like Paul did. We don't knowabout his third journey. But you
know, there, we do discover thatyou can be a part of someone's
third journey, even if it's onlyyour first if you're if you're
being mentored and coached bysomeone who's been through it.
(27:48):
And that can mean you're a partof this great fruitfulness even
know, it's not carried on yourcharacter, your spiritual
formation, you're just a part ofit. And I think those of us who
go further in in our journeys,you know, it's one thing, it's
great to find a leader who trustGod, it's even better to find a
(28:10):
leader that God trusts. Andthat's why He tests us so often.
It's not because he doesn't knowthe answer. It's because we
don't know the answer. And wehave to go through the testing
come out the other side, andthen God can entrust us with
greater things. To him who isfaithful with a little I'll give
(28:31):
much. And so Paul had beenfaithful with a few things. So
each journey is the scope of hisof his ministry increased to a
point where on his fourthjourney was all the Gentile
world heard the gospel. Andthat's not just then, but even
today, we still read his lettersto this day, he still hadn't the
(28:54):
ministry in our lives, 2000years later. So the people that
were came to Christ on the thirdjourney got to experience the
fruitfulness of Paul's thirdjourney, even though it would
have been just their early days.
Joshua Johnson (29:11):
So then in your journeys and your spiritual
formation, and as God is saying,You you're trying to write to a
new audience, a differentaudience, and you're working
with the nuns that don't havechurch affiliation, or religious
affiliation. It looks a littlebit like what Paul's journey is
where he going to the Gentiles,they don't have that
(29:33):
affiliation. Right. So what arethe things that you are taking
and gleaning from that as you'reyou transitioned from focusing
on church leaders into focusingon on nuns and religiously
unaffiliated?
Neil Cole (29:48):
So I think in the in the not too distant future, this
is my speculation. And like Isaid, on my team, I'm not the
Prophet. I have a prophet andhe's smarter than I am in those
ways. But I'll just fit yourguests. I think in the future,
people will not be asinstitutional as their parents
or grandparents were. In fact, Ithink they will be anti
(30:11):
institutional. So the moment youput a brand or a logo on it,
they're going to be turned offby that. So we're gonna have to
approach ministry, not asorganizational, but more organic
and more relational, then thanwe did in the past. And so
that's something God's how toshape in me, I think it'll be
(30:35):
something that the love needs tobe. I mean, this is true at
every generation, love needs tobe the core of what we do and
why. But I think we've lost thatthrough the years. And we may
say, we love. But love is notproven by how you take care of
the people closest to you. It'show you take care of the people
furthest from you. And I thinkthat that's going to have to be
(30:58):
evident if people are going tobuy into our message. So if we
don't have that kind of love forthe marginalized, the weak, the
vulnerable, the people who can'tspeak for themselves, then our
message isn't worth listeningto. And I would agree with that.
So I think that's going to beimportant. I think this is true,
(31:18):
I think there will be a whateveris going to happen, it will be
global, it will not be regional,and will not be national will be
global. But I also think it willnot start in the States. I think
we've had our day in thesunshine. And we didn't, we
didn't steward Well, what Godgave to us. So I think we may
(31:39):
benefit from the awakened, butit will come to us from other
parts of the world rather thanbe bored from us. These are some
thoughts on how, yeah,
Joshua Johnson (31:47):
I think we're seeing that already. That these
things are are happening, thethings the awaking even the
things that are happening inwar, have more Muslims have come
to Christ recently than ever, inthe history of, of Islam. And
it's pretty amazing parts of theworld and the places
Neil Cole (32:05):
we at least likely see, we're seeing fruit all over
the world. And I think it'salready happening. I just think
that we're we're going to be thelast ones on the bus rather than
the first ones.
Joshua Johnson (32:19):
So it's good for us. It's good for us that we get
instead of the back of the bus.
And I think it's time as well.
And so how, how do we move thenfrom institution into all of
life, love, discipleship andformation in in all of life,
Neil Cole (32:38):
you know, my experience. And you know, I'm
not a young millennial, or evena Gen Z, you know, I'm a holder
guide now. So I may not be theright person to be asking. But I
think I think we just need tomake it about focusing on Jesus,
and not the church, focusing onthe person, not the
(33:01):
organization. So just alwaysmake it about Jesus and approach
everything relationally becauselove is not an organizational
objective. Love is alwayssomething a person has or does,
it's not something yourorganization has or does. And
now granted, if the people inyour organization are loving,
(33:23):
then the organization will havethat element to it. But it
doesn't start with a missionstatement. And core objectives
and, and values. It starts withus a person dies to themselves
and sees the image of Christ andothers and loves them and is
willing to die for them. And Ithink that that has to be come
(33:44):
contagious in us so that itisn't really about the name or
the logo or the identity of anorganization. In fact, I think
the new generation will berepelled by all of that. So
putting the monkey suit on oversomething beautiful is not a
good idea. Let's just leave thebeautiful thing alone and let it
(34:08):
multiply and spread and becomecontagious without putting that
brand or logo on it. And that'sthat's going to be hard for
Boomer and Gen X leaders toaccept because they've been told
all their lives that it's aboutcreating this corporate identity
and that's not what it is about.
It's about loving this neighborand loving this person who's my
enemy. And, and you you can'treally do that as an
(34:33):
organization, you have to dothat as a as a follower of Jesus
and nothing more. So it will besimplified. It will be
disciplemaking it'll bementoring and and learning and
it will be alongside one anotherin families rather than
organizations. That's how I seeit happening. I've been
(34:53):
preparing for this my wholelife. You know if you read my
earlier books, I was alreadybringing us to a more organic
approach and to movements anddisciple making and making it
more simple. So I think I'mready for this. I don't want to
have another organization, Idon't want to carry another
(35:14):
organization. I don't want tolodge a weekly event, those
things don't aren't attractiveto me in any way whatsoever. And
I think there are others likeme, that are feeling the same
way.
Joshua Johnson (35:28):
Yes, there there are. And there'll be more and
more and more as we moveforward. You know, so then,
let's take some people throughthis through journey. So if I'm,
if I am now I'm going to putmyself into a disciple maker
mode. How can I help people gothrough these journeys? What
(35:49):
does it look like for me as adisciple maker mentor, to help
people walk through theirjourneys of life information.
Neil Cole (36:00):
So what what's important to know is that of the
heroes in the Bible that we readabout since we were kids, only
1/3 finished well, and BobbyClinton later said, 1/3 is far
too high a number for today'sleaders, were closer to 20 25%,
at best that finish well,that's, that's really
(36:23):
terrifying, if you think aboutit, and those are our leaders.
So if our leaders aren'tfinishing well, I'm pretty sure
those who are following them arefollowing to the same
destination, not finishing well.
So you have to have it in yourmind that I want to be someone
whose last lap is their bestlap, I want it to be that that I
get better with time. So what Isay in the book is that
(36:46):
finishing well is not somethingyou do at the end of your life,
it's what you choose to do everyday of your life, we have to
have a framework, a mind amental shift, where we are
always thinking, Okay, I don'twant this journey to be my best
journey. I want to learn as muchas I can during this journey, so
that when I get to the next one,I'm even more fruitful. But even
(37:07):
there, I want to keep learning.
And when I talk with people,they always want to move
themselves further along thanthey really are. And I like to
sober them up by saying youdon't want to be in a later
journey, because you want a longlife. If you get through this
real quick, that means you'regoing to have a short life. So
(37:29):
don't be in such a hurry to die.
But take your time, and takeyour lessons and go through it
at the right pace. So first ofall, have it in your mind that
you want to finish well.
Secondly, be a learner for life,always look to learn more. I
don't. It's so sad how manypeople I find my own age. That
(37:52):
stopped learning a long timeago. And it's almost common to
talk to Christians who say, youknow, if only I had the
excitement I had when I firstbelieved? Well, why don't you
Jesus hasn't changed? The stakesare the same. Why have you
changed because you're the onlyone the only part of the
equation that's changed. Youknow, I just don't think people
(38:15):
have the stamina to keeplearning. And so maybe we need
to work hard at discipliningourselves. So that we have that
strength so that we do keeplearning, always have an
objective to learn. And maybeyou need to start learning how
to play the guitar. You don't.
Here's one, I recently decidedon my bucket list. I want to do
(38:35):
stand up comedy. The peopleclosest to me think that's
crazy. But I want to test myselfto try something I've never done
before. Someday I want to singkaraoke, I've never done it.
I've never sung in front ofpeople. I don't have the best
voice. But I want to test myselfI want to learn I want to become
(38:56):
better at something. What is it?
You know, maybe it's woodworkingor gardening or something. But
maybe it's more serious thanthat. Maybe you want to learn
how to make disciples from lostpeople. So that they are
followers of Christ and you'regoing to keep trying until you
succeed at that. I think, youknow, we need to be the that a
(39:19):
learner for life that wants tofinish well, that disciplines
themselves. Then, fourthly, weneed to mentor others and be
mentored ourselves. And if youdon't have a mentor, go find one
or two or five. And they don'thave don't look for one person
to have everything you need tobe your mentor. Because that
person doesn't exist exceptJesus. So, see a quality you
(39:44):
like in someone and ask them ifthey can show you how to have
that same quality or seek tofind someone who opens doors for
you. Or, you know, there areseveral of my mentors I've never
met in life. They died before Iwas born. I look forward to me
meeting John Wesley, I lookforward to meeting the Apostle
Paul because they are mentors tome from their writings and their
(40:07):
history. There's, you know,don't limit the mentor to just
one person, but find mentors.
But don't just be a dead seathat receives become a mentor
for others. And all that meansis, figure out what you're good
at and give it away. These arethe kinds of things that will
help you get through thejourney. So likes
Joshua Johnson (40:30):
Great, yeah.
Well, Neil, if you really wantto, to learn how to do some
karaoke if you want to singright now? No, I'm not yet ready
just yet. I gotta practice italready. Yeah. All right. Maybe
next time, maybe next time,you're gonna be able to
Neil Cole (40:48):
sing out. My kids or my grandkids all know how I
sing. But I don't think Russellwas ready for it yet. Get there,
we'll get there. But I do wantto test myself. I want to put
myself in places where I'm doingsomething I've never done
before. And I think that'simportant for all of us. To see
ourselves as always willing totry new things and learn new
(41:09):
things. Maybe learn a newlanguage, maybe, you know,
there's, there's things you canlearn later in life. I just
started up another degree. Youknow, three useless degrees are
not enough. I need a fourth. Youknow, it's never too late to go
back to school, I guess. That's
Joshua Johnson (41:31):
right. So if you have somebody that are thinking
about their life, they'rethey're young, maybe you have a
graduate of high school, a highschool graduate, now they're
thinking about their journeys,think about their lives, where
where's a good place for them tostart within these, this
journey?
Neil Cole (41:51):
Okay, well, first of all, you got to know you've got
to learn God's voice. You've gotto hear God's voice, be attuned
to it. There are people who arein love with scripture, but they
don't love God's voice. Andthat's possible. Paul was like
that, before the Damascus Roadexperience. He was an expert on
the Scriptures. He kneweverything the Scripture said.
(42:14):
But he he was kicking againstthe goads, which means he was
pushing away the actual voice ofGod. So you have to get to the
place where you accept and hearGod's voice, and follow it.
Whatever he says, you'll do it.
So that's the first and foremostthing so you can love the
scriptures and not love thevoice of God. But you can't love
(42:35):
the voice of God and not lovethe scriptures. Because you'll
find that voice that you love,in every syllable that's there.
So that's the key find and valuethe voice of God. In the book of
Acts, the the word used by Luke,to describe the movement of, of
faith that was spreading was theword Lagace, the word word, and
(42:57):
the Word of God spread and theword of God multiplied, and the
Word of God grew andstrengthened. This is the
expression for movement.
Basically, it's the voice ofGod. It's the message and voice
of God. So the first thing foryou is to become more acquainted
(43:17):
with hearing his voice andbecoming someone who radically
obeys. I think we we don't valueradical obedience in our life.
And I don't mean just that you.
You don't eat and you don'tdrink in these foods. You don't
drink those drinks. You don't dodrugs. I mean, that's all good
and everything. Don't do sex,all that. But the thing is, is
(43:38):
radical obedience is not justwhat you don't do. It's what you
actually do this radical. I lovethe story. And this is in the
newer journeys is brought tolife, where Barnabas is sent by
the Jerusalem church to Antiochto check out what's going on
with this new church. And hedoes that. His charter is to go
(44:00):
see what it's all right, and getword back. But he doesn't do
that. He breaks protocol. And hegoes walking minimum 300 miles
off to Tarsus to find someone noone's ever heard of named Saul,
edit the horn to Luke'slanguage. He had to go looking
(44:23):
for Saul. He wasn't easy to fly.
So it was probably much morethan 300 miles. And everybody
there was probably saying, Whywould you do that? Where are you
going? That's not what you weretold to do. What but it was what
he was told to do by the HolySpirit. Are you willing to go
300 miles out of your way on awhim just because the Holy
(44:44):
Spirit says so we need to getthat place. We need to be like,
like Barnabas in that regard.
And I think when you do youknow, in the spirit realm,
everything you see touch feelsSmell Taste, is only half of
what's real. Oh, there's anotherworld. That's this, let's hear
that we don't see touch, feelthe unseen realm. And in that
(45:06):
world, there are beings that areangels, and there are demonic or
fallen angels and demons. And inthat world, they are accustomed,
they're all about us. They'reministering servants to us, or
they're our enemy. But they'reeither way they're focused on
us. And when we live predictablepatterns, that you know, the
(45:27):
angels don't have to pull outtheir sword very often. And the
demons are just sort oforchestrating all the events in
our lives, because it's easilypredictable, when you suddenly
take off in a direction thatnobody expects. Suddenly, now
the angels are pulling up theirswords, and they're getting to
(45:48):
work in ways they don't usuallyget to thrive. And the demons
are falling back on their heels,and they're on defense instead
of offense. And everythingshifts in the spiritual world,
because of radical obedience,like Barnabas hat, we have to be
willing to listen to Jesus andDO what He says immediately. And
I in fact, I think ifpersecution comes, and I believe
(46:12):
it will, it used to be whenpersecution comes that your
neighbor or your loved one orsomebody you work with, would
turn you in. But today, you'realready turned in, they know all
about you. They know what youthink they know more about you
than your spouse, and they knowwhere you are. They they can
track you at any moment. So thekind of persecution we're going
(46:36):
to have in the future is goingto require we'd be much more
radical, and live much moresupernatural type lives. And I
think we should begin practicingthat kind of lifestyle now. And
so get to hear God's voice andthen radically obey it, no
matter what he's telling you todo, even if he makes you a fool.
(46:57):
You know, I'm sure everyone wassaying Barnabas, that's that's
not the right thing to do.
That's not what you were told todo. by Peter, James and John,
both for Barnabas, he had ahigher copper, he had a higher
authority he was going to listento and think of it, if he hadn't
gone to get Paul, Barnabas wouldbe a small footnote in our
(47:19):
bytes. In fact, what would x bewithout Paul. So because of that
simple, radical obedience,everything in history changed.
Joshua Johnson (47:29):
That's so good.
And you see that throughoutPaul's journeys to that he hears
the Holy Spirit hears from God,he moves directions, he goes to
different places because of whathe hears from the voice of God.
And that is, you know, we, welike to talk strategy, we like
to talk, you know, this is ourmission, this is our mission
saving, this is how we're goingto go about doing things. If we
(47:51):
could get back to that principleof hearing from God doing what
he says, interacts with theSpiritual World, and live
spiritual lives. And that way,we're gonna see a lot of
incredible things. It's gonna bepretty amazing. Let's get to it.
Let's get to it.
Neil Cole (48:11):
If you if you need to learn to hear God's voice, then
time in the scriptures. I mean,just devour scriptures. I try to
read 25 to 30 chapters a week,and I've been doing that for
over 30 years. And I read booksrepetitively, you know, reading
the book, the Bible through anda year, you're gonna get Romans
(48:33):
once in before you have time tothink about it, you're already
into First Corinthians. So itjust washes over you, which is
not bad, that's better than thealternative. But man, if you
read Romans eight times in amonth, it starts to make sense
to you. So I, I suggest thatrepetitive deep reading of
(48:54):
Scripture, and then practicelistening to God, I even
recommend, go for a drive in thecar without a destination and
only turn when you have animpression in your heart to
turn, turn left turn right, seewhere it takes you practice
hearing that voice andresponding to it. When I do hear
(49:17):
God's voice, it's a thoughtcoming from another direction.
My train of thought is likethis, and another thing comes in
a different direction. And it'sa better idea. It's a holy idea.
And it it, it's obviously God,it couldn't be me, I'm not that
smart. That's how you starthearing God's voice and then you
respond to that with obedience.
So I you know, I always saythis, you could sum up all my
(49:42):
writings and all my teaching inone sentence, listen to Jesus
and DO what He says. And if wejust did that the world would
change real quickly.
Joshua Johnson (49:53):
Amen. I must have gotten it from you because
I say that all the time. Andthat's that's all i i say they
end up there. Every time I trainor do something, I was like,
just listen to Jesus do what hesays. And it's so important.
Neil, what's, what's a hope thatyou have for your readers of
journeys?
Neil Cole (50:13):
Well, I think journeys, in the initial read,
it will bring to light things inthe book of Acts that maybe you
didn't even bother questioning.
Like, why was Paul beat withrods when he's a Roman citizen?
He shouldn't have been, therewas a reason why, why did the
Holy Spirit say don't go todon't speak the word in Asia? I
think there's a reason. And inmy digging, I've discovered some
(50:36):
of those, and I present those.
So I think you'll have betterinsight in X and even the
epistles and how they fit byreading the book. But I think it
goes beyond that this is notjust a roadmap for the
scriptures, it's a roadmap forour own spiritual formation. So
it may give you ambitions forthe future, and a goal to finish
(50:57):
well, but at the same time, helpput into place, What is God
doing with this? Why am Iexperiencing this illness? Now?
Why is my loved one so unhappy?
And how does that fit into myown spiritual formation, what
God's doing in my life? Theseare the kinds of things that
suddenly they fall into place,and you realize God has a plan.
(51:18):
And if I obey Him and followHim, it will make sense, but it
won't beforehand. So that comesfrom this book. And I also think
it there's missional strategiesthat come out of what Paul had
to learn how to do missionsbetter. And he did each time he
got better. And it's I bring tolight literal practices that he
(51:41):
did that made things better. Sothere's even practical ideas
like that. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (51:50):
it's, it's really, really good. I highly
recommend journeys. And to diveinto it, I think it's going to
it's helpful for all of ourspiritual formation to move
forward in these journeys andnot jump ahead and take were way
farther down the line than weactually are. What's your one
hope for the body of Christ? Atthe moment? Is there anything
(52:10):
that you would love to say tothe body of Christ?
Neil Cole (52:15):
Well, I think God is on the move right now. I travel
a lot overseas, and I've been toplaces I'd never been booked to
before. In the last year. I'vebeen to Korea, Azerbaijan, Kaga
Stan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Iwas in Madagascar and Mauritius.
(52:35):
And India, I've never been toIndia until this year. And
everywhere I'm going, I see thesame things. I'm seeing young
people, teenagers, I did atraining, where the oldest
person I was training wasprobably 25. And the youngest
was probably 13. And they loveJesus and they want to be used
(52:55):
by him. Yeah, I want you tomention certain places I've been
to where there's a movementhappening right under the noses
of the megachurch movement, andthey don't even know it's
happening. And it's all youngpeople, and they're all coming
to Christ. And they're not goingto go to that church. They're
going to meet in homes asfamilies, and they're, they're
(53:16):
so excited about Jesus. And whenthis gets unleashed on the
world, it's it's going to bephenomenal, but it's not going
to look like it's not going tolook like the Jesus people
movement, ending up in a bunchof mega churches. They're going
to be mobile, decentralized,relational, that infiltrates
(53:40):
rather than gathers. So I thinkthat's, that's going to be a
little bit different. And Ithink the world is going to help
us with that there. Once thisstarts, the spark starts to
spread. Persecution will comeall those who desire to live
godly in Christ Jesus will bepersecuted. And if we're not
suffering persecution that sayssomething about us. Well, this
(54:04):
will be Satan will try to stompthis out. And the more he tries,
the more decentralized it willbe, the more empowered it will
be, the more contagious it willbe. And I'm, I think our
greatest days are ahead of us.
But we have to stop celebratingwhat's behind us.
Joshua Johnson (54:22):
Amen. Amen.
Anywhere you want to pointpeople to where can they get
their book journeys? Yeah,
Neil Cole (54:30):
it's available, print, audio and ebook on
Amazon. That's the easiest placeto get it. Our website is
Starling initiatives.com Likethe bird starlings, I think the
reason we call it that as Ithink in the future, when you
see a murmuration of starlings,where they're all moving like
(54:51):
one when that happens, thereisn't a bird that has a
microphone that's saying, Okay,everybody go left now everybody
go right. There's no one callingthe shots, they're all
responding as one. I think inthe future, we're gonna have to
live that kind of spirituallife. And that's why we call it
Starling initiatives. So it'smerely connecting with people
(55:12):
around the world that are of alight mine still want to listen
to Jesus and DO what He says. Soyou can go to the website and
join on their Starlinginitiatives.com. And on Amazon
is where you'll find the book.
And I would appreciate it anyonewho likes it reads it, write a
review, because that's howpeople find out about it. I
(55:33):
think it's worth finding outabout his worth writing twice is
worth reading twice.
Joshua Johnson (55:40):
That's right.
It's fantastic. So Neil, thankyou for this conversation. Your
book is amazing. And I love togo through these journeys of
Paul to think through it, bothas missionary methods and
strategy. And as a spiritualformation of where I am in life
and how I could walk throughthat be a lifelong learner,
continue to move forward. I justpray that everybody will listen
(56:03):
to Jesus and DO what He says, tolive a life that is really bound
by God's voice, that we couldfollow him and all that we do.
You know, talking to you, to me,always gives me hope for the
church, even when we see peoplenot finishing well. And you see
a lot of leaders falling, rightnow. We know that Jesus is on
(56:27):
the move, and there's someincredible things happening all
around the world. And that we'regoing to see the hope of glory
some time, and it's going to befantastic. So, yeah,
institutions may not be in thefuture, but we do have faith,
discipleship community, and thelove of God within our lives. So
(56:49):
thank you, Neil.
Neil Cole (56:53):
Appreciate thank you for the opportunity to just
check it out. Sure. Yeah, yeah.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.