April 30, 2024 • 56 mins
In this conversation, Kimberly Stuart talks about her journey with grace and her new book "Star for Jesus". We discuss Kimberly's struggles with perfectionism and legalism, and how embracing God's grace has transformed her life and perspective. We also talked about the important roles that humor, shared experiences, and vulnerability play in building understanding and extending grace to ourselves and others. It was a thought-provoking discussion about living in the "not yet" while recognizing God's already finished work. So join us as we laugh, share stories, and invoke God’s grace.
Kim is a writer, a speaker, a podcaster, and a dark chocolate obsessive. She is the author of eight novels and a newly released nonfiction debut, Star For Jesus (And Other Jobs I Quit). She and New York Times-bestselling author Bob Goff have coached hundreds of aspiring authors through their executive coaching, online courses, and live events in the San Diego area. Stuart has made her home in Minneapolis, Houston, Chicago, Costa Rica, Nebraska, and Iowa, where she now lives with her brave husband and three wily children.
Kim's Book:
Star for Jesus (And Other Jobs I Quit)
Kim's Recommendation:
A Prayer for Orion by Katherine James
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kimberly Stuart (00:00):
That is probably the most healing thing
(00:02):
we can do, honestly, because theshared laughter can kind of
cover over a bunch ofdifferences. That in some sugary
saccharin way, you know, I'm notsaying break out your joke book.
Typically, the better idea is tolisten, right to listen longer,
especially to the people who aredriving you bonkers. And then be
(00:24):
able to kind of moonwalk out ofthe, the harder or the more
conflict ridden place, bytypically poking a little fun at
yourself. Right? That's, Ithink, what we're missing. It's
not just that we're so serious,that we've forgotten that we are
totally flawed, right? We're soeager to talk about everybody
else's issues. make a joke aboutyour own darn self and see how
(00:47):
that goes. Typically, that helpspeople feel like Oh, that's
right. We're all here together.
Joshua Johnson (01:05):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost, Joshua Johnson. Go to
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(01:28):
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Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
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should be listening as well. Ifyou're new here, welcome. If you
(01:51):
want to dig deeper find us onsocial media at shifting culture
podcast, where I post videoclips and quotes and interact
with all of you. Previous guestson the show have included Kayla
Craig, Sarah Billups and Toryhope Peterson you can go back
listen to those episodes andmore. But today's guest is
Kimberly Stewart. Kim is awriter, a speaker, a podcaster
(02:11):
and a dark chocolate obsessive.
She is the author of eightnovels and a newly released
nonfiction debut star for Jesusand other jobs I quit. She,
along with New York Times bestselling author Bob Gough have
coached hundreds of aspiringauthors through their executive
coaching, online courses andlive events in the San Diego
(02:34):
area. Stewart has made her homein Minneapolis, Houston,
Chicago, Costa Rica, Nebraskaand Iowa, where she now lives
with a brave husband and threewily children. I had such a
wonderful conversation with Kimabout her journey with grace. In
her new book starfish Jesus, wediscuss Kimberly struggles with
perfectionism and legalism, andhow embracing God's grace has
(02:57):
transformed her life andperspective. We also talked
about the important roles thathumor shared experiences and
vulnerability play in buildingunderstanding and extending
grace to ourselves and to otherswas a thought provoking
discussion about living in thenot yet while recognizing God's
already finished work. So joinus as we laugh, as we share
(03:20):
stories and invoke God's grace.
Here is my conversation withKimberly Stewart. Kim, welcome
to the podcast. So excited tohave you on thank you so much
for joining me.
Kimberly Stuart (03:32):
Oh, golly, it's so fun to be here. Thanks for
the kind invitation.
Joshua Johnson (03:36):
Now, of course, you know, I'd love to figure out
what is your relationship withgrace, like in your life, as you
you sat down, wrote your firstnonfiction book, all about
grace. And so what was yourjourney like with grace in your
life?
Kimberly Stuart (03:55):
It's been a little slippery, I would say. I
mean, I think that's just thenature of grace. It doesn't make
sense to me. It's nonsensical.
In fact, the math in my life ispretty predictable in every
other space except for grace.
And by that I mean, when I putforth effort into something,
(04:15):
then I get paid, or in some waycompensated right, whether
that's at my job, or even inrelationships, we don't really
hang out in general inrelationships where we put forth
a bunch of effort and the otherperson eats bonbons and puts
their feet up and never Jackson.
So this idea of an unmeritedgift, right, a gift that just is
fully, completely whole and mineand I don't have to tap dance
(04:43):
for it and I can't improve uponit. And I also can't take it
away, just slips through myfingers. It just hasn't made
sense to me, and I like thingsto make sense. So I'm a first
born female. I really like boxesthat I can check Golf, I make
lists every day, Joshua. Andthen even if I'm if I do
(05:03):
something that's not on thelist, I, post event, write the
item and then check it off. Sothat's the way I roll. Man, I
love getting things done. AndGrace just does not obey that
system.
Joshua Johnson (05:18):
Yeah, I can feel Yeah, my wife does the same
thing. She loves to check offbox and saying, I got this done.
I got this done. And that's herlove language, I think is
checking off boxes. So if I cando that, then I can show her
this is love.
Kimberly Stuart (05:34):
That's right.
I'm with her. Entertain,
Joshua Johnson (05:38):
as good so as so what is your then role then? As
a are you a perfectionist? Areyou somebody that wants to get
straight A's? Make sure that youhave all the all the things
completed? How has that workedout?
Kimberly Stuart (05:56):
It worked out?
The answer is yes. I love thingsto be completed. I like things
to be done. Well. Sometimes theworld cooperates sometimes I
cooperate with that, andsometimes not. So I think that's
been a huge part of me kind ofholding Grace up into the light,
spinning in a little bit,letting it catch different light
in different seasons. Andfinding that over and over the
(06:19):
grace of Jesus, the grace thatGod's got offers me through
Jesus just does not abandon doesnot turn tail and run according
to what I am doing. So that doesnot jive. With straight A's I
have absolutely love. You know,there are plenty of instances in
(06:42):
the Bible and Paul's very clearabout this, that we are to
pursue excellence right that wewould work heartily as unto the
Lord. So please don't hear mesaying and now it's time for all
of us to lay down on our beds,and say it's all done. We don't
any longer need to do any goodwork, I think works great. I
just somehow was picking upsomewhere along the line. That
(07:04):
work was a part of me gainingentrance to the throne of God,
you know that when in Hebrews,the the writer says, you know,
we get to approach this throneof grace with confidence. I
added my own words to that,which was I need to spit shine
my shoes and make sure I'm inpresentable form before I go
(07:28):
anywhere, much less to go talkto the God of the universe. I
don't know that the peoplearound me were saying this. I
have phenomenal parents. Theydefinitely were not saying this.
And they were definitely notmodeling this. But somewhere
along the line, I definitelypicked up that this must work.
Like everything else works. Sostrap on the tap shoes. Baba,
Joshua Johnson (07:52):
I have a six year old that he is now in the
space where I know that he hedoesn't want to present
something unless it's perfect.
Like he's like, Oh, I messed upon this color and cheap. I need
a brand new one. I'm going tostart over. And it was like a
small little mistake. And so I'mlike, Oh man, you're gonna set
yourself up for a lot ofdifficulty in life. How do we
(08:13):
how do we start to speak intopeople's lives? Like what were
what was happening in the yourparents around you at an early
age? How are you trying toinstill that in your own
children as they were growing upbefore? into a place where grace
does exist? And it's okay. Andyou can't mess up and keep
(08:36):
moving forward?
Kimberly Stuart (08:40):
Yeah, I think what's helpful for me for my own
heart, and then also I have acouple to have three children
are absolutely on theperfectionist roll, they would
have their with your six yearold, they would also say new
sheet, and we ruined to thisone. So I get it. We've got that
in our house for sure. I thinkwhat's helpful for me is to
think about that tendency as agift, right? It's just there are
(09:04):
some spaces in which that giftcan become paralysis. So I
really want my heart surgeon tobe a perfectionist, I went, we
went to go visit my daughterwho's studying abroad right now
we went on this very long planeride to Spain, and I really
wanted my pilot to be aperfectionist, I want that
person to be overly cautious andtalking about checking boxes,
(09:28):
let's just go through all theboxes and then check them again.
So there's a space for that. Butit's a total ninja move right
your son is going to have that'sactually a really beautiful
thing. The problem is if we dragthat into every situation in
every season, and it's a realproblem if we drag it into the
time that we spend with theLord, who our prayer time into
(09:51):
the way we approach, you knowbeing with him and make it a
checkbox situation instead ofjust being with him, which is
you came to do and really messedup everybody else's ideas of
this. So I would say your sonhas a beautiful gift. The
question will be how he canleverage that in the right spot?
Joshua Johnson (10:12):
Oh, I hope he will really do. And I know he
will. He'll be he'll be great.
He has a really great father. Sohe's going
Kimberly Stuart (10:19):
to be yes. I don't see any problems that can
occur. Yeah, exactly.
Joshua Johnson (10:24):
When we're talking about grace, this is
it's a, it's a hard thing.
Because we have totallymisappropriated grace in, in our
modern culture. And we justthrow it out as a as a nice
little platitude. We throw it upon our honored doors and say,
you know, whatever, about grace.
(10:45):
So what is what is grace? Andhow have we miss handled it? In
our lives?
Kimberly Stuart (10:53):
Yeah, sometimes it's better, I think, to ask
what it's not. And I agree withyou. Once you see, I always
think if you see a word on apillow at TJ Maxx, it's time to
brush the dust off. Andremember, again, what was the
original version? If I can pickup something with that it's
1499. Then I, you know, usuallythat means, Okay, it's time to
(11:14):
take a look, again, I think whathas happened, oftentimes, again,
this is such a big and beautifuland profound and ancient idea.
So that's the first piece like,we're not the first people to
ask about this. I like reading alot of writing of very dead,
very old people. And it's funnyhow this comes up. I mean, we're
(11:36):
talking 300 ad 65. AD, already,people are saying, Wait, what is
this? What? How can we wrap ourheads around this in our hearts
around this? So the first pieceis just to know, it's okay, that
it's mysterious. Right? Thatthat doesn't make it less true.
In fact, probably morebeautiful, and it's mystery. But
(11:57):
it is a beautiful job, we haveto try to kind of take the onion
layers off and see what it is.
There's a chapter in the bookwhere we talk about what it's
not. So I'd probably startthere. It's not a weapon. I
think oftentimes, folks haveused that word as a weapon. So
for example, I have a friend whowas told to extend grace to her
(12:19):
abusive husband for decades. Andthe end, the pastor said over
and over, this is your job, youfollow Jesus, you need to extend
grace to this man. And so shehas a had in his kind of
unwrapping, still a very warpedversion of that word. So it's
not a weapon. Grace is notsomething that keeps the lights
off. I think grace works everyone of them on and bust people
(12:43):
out of prison instead of keepingthem there. Grace is a I guess
it for in my own story. Gracehas been this soft spot where I
can see myself so much moreclearly. Because it's in the
(13:03):
light of what God says. Hethinks about me. So it's like
the most specific thing I thinkthat I found. That's another
thing that I've I thinksomewhere along the right line,
we got amazing grace associatedwith people in kilts at
funerals. It's a beautiful song.
And it's kind of a just ageneral amazing grace for
(13:25):
everyone how sweet the sound.
But every it's just like thisblurry painting that God has
made that he's just gracious tous. Capital, US humankind. And I
think crease is so much morespecific than that. The grace
that I have felt God extend tome in my life has my name
written on it. It's in alanguage I can understand. My
(13:45):
dad, when he was about 25 ish,26 he prayed this ridiculous
prayer and said to God, I'mtired of going to church. And
I'm tired of clocking in. Thisis pretty much the end of this
for me, unless you show me thatyou're real. Not an appropriate
(14:06):
prayer. I don't think you'd getany points for finesse. But it
was very honest. And Godresponded to that prayer in a
language that he understood. Andfor Him what that looked like
was two weeks later, I was runover by a car in my neighbor's
front yard in her driveway, andI had a bilateral skull
(14:26):
fracture. And my dad who hasmedical training scooped up his
little girl, which you're neversupposed to do with a head
injury. And we went to thehospital and the doctor said
this is not good. She's it's ashe will likely not function.
And she she could just pass awaythis is not gonna go well for
(14:48):
you. And that brazen guy who hadasked God, are you real? You
better show it to me. He got hisanswer in a language that he
understood. and five days later,I was out of the hospital, I
didn't have surgeries, I didn'teven take Tylenol. The
neurologist at my follow upappointment just kind of sat and
shook his head and kept saying,I don't understand what this is
(15:10):
when I'm yammering in thebackground talking and my two
year old voice so that thatstory is an important story in
my life, my dad 40 years later,still cannot tell it without
crying. Because he knows thatthat shifted everything for him.
I mean, talking about shiftingculture, it shifted the culture
of our family, for generations.
(15:33):
And the reason that is sobeautiful, in addition to what
that gave us as a family, isthat I just see that just the
specificity of God in thatmoment. He knew my dad was not
going a candlelight service, wasa beautiful String Quartet
wasn't going to do it for him.
He can't he couldn't hear that.
That's not who he is. So whenyou ask me what grace is, I
(15:56):
think of stories like that,where they are so personal God
is so absolutely intentionallydetail oriented in the way that
he explains himself to us. Ijust can't think of a kindness
greater than that. So
Joshua Johnson (16:12):
kinds, you know, but when I when I was listening
to that story, and when I wasreading it in your book, I
that's one of the biggest fearsthat I had. And when you know,
my son was a baby. Yeah, it'slike he's like, I really when
I'm backing out of the driveway,I'm looking everywhere, making
sure that he's not around. Yeah,scary. God being in the midst of
(16:36):
that and you being perfectlyokay, is such a miracle. Have
you got a good? Got a goodringtone there too.
Kimberly Stuart (16:48):
I don't even know how that happened. I did
recreate that I wouldn't be ableto.
Joshua Johnson (16:53):
Like what is that? What is that?
Kimberly Stuart (16:58):
Picture of raycast we just came up on my
computer and something happened.
You got Rick rolled? Yeah, bySheridan. Wow. Newly added this
is Rick going to be it's gonnabe probably love it.
Joshua Johnson (17:16):
He would love it. That's, that's perfect. It's
absolutely perfect. But this iswhat happens. I think one, like
what just happened now which Isomething strange happened it
diffuses humor diffuses the theheaviness and the fear and helps
(17:38):
us face what we're goingthrough. A lot of times, you
know, as you said, Hey, acandlelight service, a string
quartet wasn't going to do itfor your dad. He's going to it's
going to take a miraclespecific. A lot of times, to me
specific what Jesus means Jesusisn't just solemn and serious
all the time. Jesus also likesto have fun. And Jesus was show
(18:00):
me that. It's okay to beyourself, to walk in the world
as yourself. What's the role ofhumor for you and grace? And how
does that that parallel in yourlife?
Kimberly Stuart (18:13):
I'm so glad you're bringing this up. humor
was very much a part of mygrowing up. My mom is absolutely
one of the funniest people I'veever met. And I know what you
just said she did. So whenthings would get too hot, the
temperature's going up. Youknow, she had three teenagers at
one point and we all had so manywords and so many feelings. She
(18:36):
I would watch how she wouldcrack a joke or say something
funny, usually pretty selfdeprecating. And the the
temperature would drop 15degrees, right? We'd all
remember oh, wait a minute. Wehave so much. We have so much
here. You know, we're tramplingover it. There's a lot of good
stuff happening here. And sohumor, I think is a superpower.
(18:56):
And I don't know that we in facecircles use it enough. My
husband and I have often laughedabout Dockers humor. And by that
I mean for a long time in the90s I feel like we would sit
early 2000s We'd sit in churchand our pastor who we loved this
was in another city. I want tobe very clear on my current
(19:18):
pastor although I think he doesown Dockers would wear pleated
Dockers when he preached and hewould tell a joke that was
absolutely categorically notfunny. But we would all agree
that we were nice Christians andwe would politely laugh like a
golf clap laugh. You know, I'mtalking about, you know what I'm
(19:38):
talking about here tonight. Forsure, and I'm telling you we are
super supportive of our pastors.
They have the worst and hardestjob so that is a full stop
sentence. And it is really toughto be funny in church. But
pulley humor is medicine. boutSolomon's take on it right? And
(20:00):
so the thing with humor is thatyou can offend people. So that's
why I'm nervous. Yeah, yeah. Andwe don't do it, I think we're
missing out. So the stories inthis book, the story, I'm a
story uncover by nature, I justlike to hear people's stories
like to tell a good story. AndI've watched, I know you've done
(20:21):
I've know, you've seen this toJoshua, that you in a room, you
tell a joke, or you saysomething funny, or someone else
says something funny. There'ssomething that happens. It's
like this shared experience. Andall of a sudden, everybody's
shoulders relax and relax,right? And we decide, oh, we're
in this together. It's, it'smiraculous every time. So if I
want to talk about grace, whichis profound and deep and
(20:44):
beautiful, and a little hard toget my hands around, if I can
invite you into the room withsomething that makes you laugh,
then we feel like we can betogether a little bit. And I
there's a trust building piecethat happens there too. Like,
oh, we've shared that. I don'tknow why I'm sure there's some
there are, you know,psychologist or neuroscientists
(21:06):
who have pinpointed what happensin the brain with that, but
something happens, somethinghappens that won't last.
Joshua Johnson (21:14):
Those people, they they're not very funny. But
they do know what happens whenwe're
Kimberly Stuart (21:22):
totally it's a data collection situation. But
oh, it does happen, you know,that, that we've seen it over
and over. And you've I mean, I'msure with your son and his
friends, and definitely two kidsin high school and one in
college, I watch when they gettogether with their friends. If
they're laughing, that nightgoes longer, right? Not that
(21:42):
there's not a space for in fact,usually the laughter is first.
We're even sandwiches, right?
laugh together, go deepertogether. And then laugh as you
say goodbye. There's somethingreally beautiful about that
rhythm. I think we should do itmore.
Joshua Johnson (21:56):
We do need to do it more. I was teaching a class
on the history of missions. Andafterwards, when I left, I had
somebody come up to me and said,I don't know why people weren't
laughing. I was laughing at allyour jokes. They were funny. And
I was laughing on the inside.
And I'm like, why are we justlaughing on the inside? You
gotta laugh out loud. You gottahelp me out here. And then I go.
I taught the same class the nextnight. And everybody was
(22:21):
laughing. Oh, finally, it was sofun. You know, such a different
room. Yeah. But yeah, man thatlaughter is so important. And I
think one of the things is thatseriousness, I think, even so,
if you think about the crazypolitical nature of our country,
the United States at the moment,that people are offended, if you
(22:44):
say anything, and sell jokes,and defuse things with humor,
everything is so serious, right?
And it would heal us. If welaughed. 100 That's where the
grace comes. Yeah, you actuallyhave grace for somebody when we
(23:04):
can laugh together. Yeah,because right now, we don't
think we can laugh together. Weare there. Because they believe
something different than webelieve. Yeah. We can't laugh
together. How do we how do weshow grace one to another?
Through the laughter? Is thatsomething that's possible? How
(23:26):
can that heal us?
Kimberly Stuart (23:28):
Absolutely.
It's possible. In fact, I thinkit's imperative. I live in Iowa.
Okay. We have political calls tohave every four year cycle like
it's just constant,
Joshua Johnson (23:40):
right? It's crazy. And I'm sorry. Yeah, it's
absolutely nuts. Oh, pants and Ireally
Kimberly Stuart (23:47):
Yeah, it's, it's a deal. But you know what I
noticed when caucus time comesaround and we all go to these
little you know, theneighborhood gym or the
neighborhood precinct. And weget together it's actually
really old school you like writeit on? It's like, it's like
student council elections. Wewrite a person on paper, put it
in a bowl. I said, I'm lookingoutside because I sit with all
(24:07):
my neighbors. And we are howlingthe whole time making jokes
chatting about you know, thingsthat matter to us. It is not get
heated at all, because we loveeach other. And I don't it does
not matter one bit to me, Mrs.
X, what, who you're voting forbecause tomorrow I'm going to be
(24:28):
walking my dog past your house.
And we are friends. So I thinksometimes what we see in the
news or on social media and andthink oh my gosh, everyone hates
each other. No one is agreeing.
Typically, when we get back tothe 5050 feet in front of our
house, the two houses around us.
(24:50):
That's a lot harder to make acase that everything is gone
haywire, because actually, Ilike these people. I don't
really care how they're voting.
I and just have fun with themand have them over for coffee,
or for dinner. And we don't, wedon't need to all be in the same
space where we're voting and wecan laugh together. So
(25:10):
absolutely, that is probably themost healing thing we can do,
honestly, because the sharedlaughter can kind of cover over
a bunch of differences. That insome sugary saccharin way, you
know, I'm not saying break outyour joke book. Typically, the
better idea is to listen, rightto listen longer, especially to
(25:31):
the people who are driving youbonkers. And then be able to
kind of moonwalk out of the, theharder or the more conflict
ridden place, by typicallypoking a little fun at yourself.
Right? That's, I think whatwe're missing, it's not just
that we're so serious is thatwe've forgotten that we are
totally flawed, right? Are soI'm here to talk about everybody
(25:54):
else's issues. make a joke aboutyour own darn self and see how
that goes. Typically, that helpspeople feel like Oh, that's
right. We're all here together.
Yeah. For
Joshua Johnson (26:05):
me, I don't do well is I could extend grace to
lots of different people. And Icould embody Jesus that way. I
could say, here's some grace,Jesus is gonna give it to you,
I'm gonna give it to you. He'sgoing to actually help turn your
life around. I'm not gonna domuch, but I'm gonna give you
some grace. But I can't givemyself grace. I can't get my own
(26:27):
inner monologue or my innerthoughts into the space of
saying, I am enough. And Jesusloves me. Even though I'm a
screw. Yep. How do I extendgrace to myself? There in my
inner monologue?
Kimberly Stuart (26:47):
Oh, yeah, that's the doozy. Right? I think
when I started thinking aboutwriting about grace, I thought,
who's not gonna love grace, wecould use more of it, right. And
then, at some point, I startedhaving to spend way too much
time with this idea, I realizedI had a very narrow view of it.
(27:08):
I thought Grace would be areally great thing, as you said,
to extend to the people in mylife who need it. Preferably
people who I don't have a lot ofcontact with, right, just like
some drive by grace, I likegreat drive by grace is really
fun. Second would be, as I say,in the book that drinks the
difficult people who just don'tleave you, they could be in your
family, they could be in thecarpool lane, the people who
(27:30):
are, you know, kind of AP grace,but maybe the hardest is to me,
it might admit that might betemperament. You know, your six
year old and I might have somehave some real estate they're
together? I don't know. But itdoes seem like we have in
general even for nonperfectionist, we seem to have a
(27:50):
difficult time holding fast tothis idea that God finished this
work. We're just coming out ofEaster. You No, I I just think
his I don't know that it becomesit could become any more
important to me, the longer Ilive, that one of the last
(28:10):
things Jesus said was, it'sdone. It is finished, the work I
had is finished. Because most ofmy life, I have insisted that he
was almost finished and that Ineed to help him with the last
10 or 15%. Right, thanks. I'lltake it from here God, right. So
in a really beautiful white,that would be my own kind of
(28:32):
misguided intentions and alittle more sinister light, it
would be me deciding that Idisagree with God, and that God
actually isn't finished and thathe is wrong. And I don't want to
be in that in that pool. Right?
I don't want to be opposing thisbeautiful work that he's already
done. So typically, when I'mhaving a hard time extending
(28:54):
grace to myself, I find it'svery helpful for me to think
about how I would talk to mychildren or to someone that I
love. If I have a tape playingin my head and tape just shows
you how old I am that I havetaped
Joshua Johnson (29:12):
and you're on hands so that if it comes out of
the cassettes, you could twirlit back in and get
Kimberly Stuart (29:21):
better believe recording off the radio. So I
have my mixtape for Dan Johnsonand fourth period. Okay. If that
tape is on a loop, and I getthere right with with yours and
time asking Jesus what he thinksabout me this has become less
frequent, but it absolutelystill pops up. If the narrative
(29:44):
is something that is inopposition to what God has said
about me that I am beloved, thatI am his that I'm absolutely
never alone. That there issomething beautiful that he has
for me. My own name is A namethat he and I will talk about
when we meet that he only knowsthat he adds his name. For me,
(30:06):
that's an revelation. Like,there are these beautiful things
that he's already said about me.
When I start disagreeing withthat, and deciding, well, but
don't you think I should haveher life? Don't you think I
should run that fast? Don't youthink I should feel shame about
what I have been before whatI've done before? Don't you
think my worth actually isabsolutely on par with what I'm
doing my either my productivityor my own view of righteousness,
(30:29):
right? I mean, I can fill thatbasket fast. When that tape
starts to play. If I can takejust a second and stop and say,
how would I say this? How wouldI talk to Ana? My 21 year old
about her? What would I say tofear who's 15? And sitting in
French class right now? Howwould I respond to Mitch? If he
(30:51):
said to me, you know, I thinkI'm pretty much worthless, or
you know what, I think my sindefines me. I would come out
with guns blazing, to correctthat right? In kindness and
gentleness and to but ferocitysay absolutely not, you're
listening to a voice that is notthe one that made you. So let's
(31:13):
make sure you can tune your earin your heart to Him. If I think
about that conversation, and canjust gently put that toward
myself and think actually, theway God talks to me and about
me, is a lot more in line withhow I would talk to Mitch right
now than what I'm doing to me,that seems to clarify and sifts
through what's actually true.
(31:37):
And what I'm agreeing with,right, what I'm taking to
myself, that actually is just apile of hooey. And
Joshua Johnson (31:44):
you tell yourself that there's a pile of
hooey over and over again,you're gonna see you don't
actually know that you're beinglied to. You just believe it.
Right? believe those lies overand over again. And yeah,
hearing the voice of God andbeing attuned to it is necessary
to extend that grace. And yousaid, Hey, we're, we're at
(32:06):
Easter, It is finished. Butthen, hey, where we live in the
in between? And where theconsummation isn't here yet. So
there's a lot of Death and DecaySin is still rampant in the
world. It there's some uglinessand but it is finished. How do
you how do we reconcile yourwhere we are in the story, that
(32:30):
we know that it's finished, butit's not yet? Yeah. How do we?
How do we live in grace whenthere's still all this junk
happening and rampant out there?
Kimberly Stuart (32:43):
I mean, I am no theologian, and I am no expert.
I have a chair in the room whereI am right now. And I'm looking
over there with my readersbecause I'm elderly, and my
Bible, and I sit there in theearly mornings to remind me,
what is true. What is true.
You're right, we are in the notyet for sure. But everything
(33:03):
I've seen in my story, and inthe story of humanity is that
God does what He says he's goingto do. I was thinking about that
Easter weekend this year.
There's this moment where theangel says to the women at the
tomb, he's risen, just as hesaid. And I kept thinking, just
(33:25):
as he said, why that an angelsaying just as he said, and I
know it's, it was ringing abell, because that's exactly
what happens in Luke's gospel,when the shepherds go home,
marveling and praising God. AndI'm just shocked that it
happened, Just as the angelssaid, just as God had said,
through the angels, this is whatI'm going to do. Bank on it
(33:48):
brothers. He says that again, atthe tomb, when you start to
like, pull that thread startingin Genesis all the way,
sometimes what God says he'sgoing to do takes hundreds of
years, even millennia. But healways does it. He always does.
I was in this Bible study yearsago, where we went through the
whole thing. And it was a lot.
It was a lot of like, I mean,there were a lot of homework
(34:12):
every week. And it was prettyintense. And that probably was
the drumbeat that I took out ofit, because we would go real
deep, real specific. And overand over again, God would say,
I'm going to do this. And thenthe writer of the study would
point us to where he did it. SoI mean, this is the law of
consistent behavior. We don't dothat very well as humans. So
(34:36):
it's very hard for us to imaginethat what He says He will always
do, he will. So when he saysthis is rescue, this is
redemption. This is restoration.
I'm on it. I get to choosewhether or not I believe that he
will do that. But so far when Ilook behind me, he has this week
of faithfulness. I just thinkthat's who he is. I don't know
(34:59):
but he I don't think he'scapable of being anything but
faithful. So in the waiting inthe not yet, that's where I'm,
that's where I'm planting myfeet and my heart. Just make
sense. Hmm. Easy, by the way,etc, right? Plenty of hard
things and suffering and peoplethat we know. And people in
(35:22):
super, super close to me thatare walking in the absolute
midst of every valley of everyshadow of every death. It is
brutal. It is brutal. And weknow, we know that this isn't
new, right? We watched Jesuscome to the tomb of his friend
(35:45):
and bellow, like a wild animal.
That's what that word means hewas angry at death. So we are
not alone and feeling like whatin the world is happening? Is
this it? This is what we havehere. Right? We're not alone in
that. And it's not over, thestory is not over.
Joshua Johnson (36:07):
Doesn't that seem like Grace To You is Jesus
weeping, where others that weepfor his friends, as grief is
happening, that we get to sitand weep together and be
together. That's, that's anextension of grace. That's
something I want to move into.
Kimberly Stuart (36:30):
When you were talking earlier about how you
remember, you have to rememberthat Jesus wasn't just, you
know, with his symptoms, I thinkart has done us wrong with his
curled hair, and plasticexpression. In all of these
paintings, you can forget, helaughed his head off with the
disciples and with his friends.
And he also wept he he was fullyfully fully human. And what a
(36:54):
beautiful extension of gracebecause of all the people in
that scene, Jesus knew whereLazarus was headed, right? He
had an actual experience ofeternity, and where full
restoration happens. And yet hemourned with those who mourn. He
absolutely entered into that. Ifthat's not grace, I don't know.
(37:17):
What is
Joshua Johnson (37:19):
your you're a writer. And you're good writer,
too.
Kimberly Stuart (37:24):
Thank you.
Joshua Johnson (37:26):
You're a good writer. What's this? What's the
role of narrative for us in ourlives? And I mean, you could
throw in like, as at risk, wesponsor grace, narrative grace.
But I think even knowing wherewe are in the story of God is
important as narrative. So inall of what we're talking about,
(37:50):
why is narrative important? Andwhat's the role of narrative?
Kimberly Stuart (37:55):
Well, I take heart as a person who loves
story, I take heart in the factthat Jesus did not stand on the
temple steps with a 10 pointwith bullet points, a brochure
of dogma or doctrine, that wasnot his gig, he did not stand in
front of people and say, Okay,let's turn to page 40. And we're
(38:16):
going to make our way throughthis technical manual. He told
stories about, you know, a boywho scandalized his parents took
all of the money that was due tohim after his dad's death, and
went to eat with pigs. He toldstories about a woman who lost
something that was so sovaluable to her and just
absolutely, in every corner ofher house, worked until she
(38:39):
found it again, she I mean, we,we have a little bit of a
distance from this. So weforget, they're so familiar to
us now that we forget, these arestories, this is narrative over
and over. And the purpose of thenarrative was to help us put
flesh and bones on what it meansto to know and to love God. So
Jesus did I feel like we can doit. Like, I feel like and we all
(39:00):
know this, right? When we'veheard a talk or a sermon, and
you kind of zone out, maybe justfor a little hot second. And
then the speaker says, you know,this reminds me of a time when I
was in a car with my daughter,and then we pick up because
something happens with story. Sofor grace in the purpose or the,
the beauty of grace, I mean,money is a purpose that sounds
bullet pointy, the glory, theweight of grace, I think just
(39:24):
gets heavier and more profoundwhen we share our story. There's
something unique about yourstory and my story and the
stories of our listeners, thatthere's only one lens, there's
only one person who lived withthat. And so, I mean, we talked
before about people having ahard time getting a long story
(39:46):
usually diffuses some of thattension. It's very difficult to
poopoo someone who says, Well,this is this was my life. This
is how this worked. Right? If Istart out by saying, let's talk
about a few steps tosanctification. And I want to
(40:06):
really go over that open Romans,there is a crowd that will go
there with you. But usually thatcrowd already loves Romans, that
people who don't know Jesus yetor haven't held fast to grace,
yeah, and even people who doknow Jesus and have forgotten
grace, we can have a totallydifferent conversation. If you
start out by saying, here is thepivot point, when I realized
(40:30):
there was nothing I could do toearn the favor of God, I was
completely at his mercy. Andboy, what a great thing. Right?
I was on the corner of such andsuch, and this is what happened.
I was in my living room at 3am.
And this is what happened. Like,when you enter the personal
space of a story, theconversation gets richer, and it
gets way more honest.
(40:53):
Immediately. It says it's asuperpower. And I love it. And I
think I'm not the first thingbecause obviously, God could
have revealed himself in so manyways, and you use the storybook.
So yeah,
Joshua Johnson (41:05):
I know. It's crazy. It's amazing. I mean, I
don't I can't tell you how manyliving rooms I've sat in,
especially Syrian refugee livingrooms, where were you just told
stories, stories of God at workin our own lives, stories of
Jesus from the Bible. Andstories are the things that draw
people. And it was story afterstory after story. And we, I
(41:28):
mean, I need to remind myselfthat Jesus stories are happening
to me all the time. And I couldtell those stories constantly.
And you tell a lot of thosestories in your book. And it is
different for you than you havein the past. In the past, if you
have written novels, written alot of fiction, this is your
(41:49):
first foray into nonfiction. Didyou have a vulnerability
hangover? What was it like?
baring your soul? At present, Ido have a vulnerability
hangover. How is it to bare yoursoul? As you know, previously,
you're telling, you know,fictionalized stories, now
you're telling your own story ofhow God's grace has met you?
(42:11):
What was that? Like? How is thatdifferent than than fiction?
Kimberly Stuart (42:18):
Well, even hearing you ask that question
makes me wonder again, it wasn'tso good. You create characters,
you can just kill them off, youknow, chapter six, it's not
going well. Well, Aunt Irma,sorry to see you go. But you
cannot do it when you're tellingtrue stories. And Irma is really
(42:40):
fully a part of your familyforever. So in some ways,
writing my own story easierbecause I lived it in my I
didn't have to, you know, Icould just inhabit the scene
really, and tell what I saw. Butin other ways, just as you said,
Oh, heavens to Betsy, this isnot a book of tiptoeing. I
(43:05):
wouldn't I didn't do a lot oftiptoeing. I really told some
stories that were really storiesI didn't want to write, right.
And those usually are thestories that readers talk about
more to you right to say Ineeded freedom like that, too.
So I know that there is a costand that the cost is worth it.
(43:26):
But there is a cost for sure.
For the storytelling, I leanedvery much into some of the
fiction things, you know,fiction, tips and tricks that
I've used many times there'sdialogue there scene, building a
lot of like the arc of a story,I feel pretty comfortable with
that. So in some ways, I hadsome of those tools that I had
been using for a while, butnothing really has prepared me
(43:48):
for, again, as you say that justthe vulnerability hangover, the
idea that wow, these have beenin my head in my heart for a
long time, but I've been able tochoose when I let them out of
the bag, and now they are fullyon heavyweight paper in hardback
form. So you and I are talkingpre released, so maybe call me
in about six months and asked meif it was worth it. I'll let you
(44:13):
know.
Joshua Johnson (44:18):
I think it was worth it. I mean, it's a it's a
wonderful book, and I reallyenjoyed it. So as people are
going to start to pick up yourbook, what is your hope for your
readers? What do you hope thatthey would get out of this? Oh,
Kimberly Stuart (44:36):
you asked really wonderful questions.
You're very good podcast hostsand also transitions are
phenomenal. That's hard to do.
I'm just calling it out righthere that's really hard to do
well, so what I've done. My hopefor the reader is twofold. One
is lighter in that I really hopethat he or she laughs Maybe
cries a couple times and just Itsits and kind of, again, brushes
(45:01):
that dust off of this beautifulword. I hope it's a book of, I
hope that the storytelling opensthe door really wide to the
room. And then on a on a more, Idon't know, I would say
profound, but I don't feel likea profound person, a deeper and
(45:21):
maybe more lasting hope, reallywould be that the reader would
remember again, the ridiculous,beautiful way tea, gift of
grace, and that that he or shewould be able to put aside the
(45:43):
math that we keep attaching toit right either adding to it
here, God, I will help you andperform for you. And this is
going to make you like me more,or subtracting and deciding who
gets grace. Were constantly withthis abacus deciding how to let
grace be less than it is. And myhope would be for my own heart
and for the heart of the reader.
(46:06):
That grace really would beallowed to flourish and be
amazing. It's still amazing,this grace that we sing about
and read about and nod our headsabout. And I want it to sink in
deep and grow roots in ourlives.
Joshua Johnson (46:21):
That's beautiful. I you know, as I was
reading that, I was like, hey,there's some people that that
need to read this book. And thenI finally realized, oh, this
book is for me, I need to readthis book. I need I need the
grace. That's. And I think a lotof times we often think, oh,
that grace over there is for therich over there when it's not to
(46:45):
read like for us like we have,we got our nice little life that
we can control. And we're okay.
And we don't need it. But wereally do. And we need it. So I
need this book. And it was itwas great. And so thank you for
letting me laugh. Along withyou. And let me Yeah, cry tears
with you. It's a it's abeautiful work. So thank you.
(47:10):
Thank you for that.
Kimberly Stuart (47:13):
That's kind words, I just feel hold them.
Thank you so much. You
Joshua Johnson (47:18):
are welcome. I have a couple questions I like
to ask here at the end. One isif you go back to your 21 year
old self, what advice would yougive?
Kimberly Stuart (47:29):
Wow, 21. You know, I mentioned I have a 21
year old daughter. And so I feellike in many ways, we're having
all the conversations that I didat that time with my mother. So
this is fresh 21 year old me Iwould love to encourage her to
relax and take a breath kid,you're hearing a theme here, I
(47:53):
was very intent on doing theright thing. And in some ways,
that is just such a great, greatimpulse to have. But it also can
make you second guess everythingin your effort to do it well. So
that would probably be one ofthe things I said to myself. I
would also say you're gettingmarried in a couple of years, I
(48:14):
really would recommend that whenyou go move to Costa Rica with
Mark. Just you don't even haveto get a job. You know why?
Because you are going to workway too hard. Earn $14 a day and
you should just go travel more.
That's probably what I would sayto her. That's timely. That's a
timestamp issue for
Joshua Johnson (48:34):
I agree. And so, go travel, enjoy Costa Rica see
the world and just live yourlife and enjoy it. Yeah, you're
only you really are only on onceand
Kimberly Stuart (48:49):
it's not now.
The ones on
Joshua Johnson (48:52):
the young youth is wasted on the young. That
would have been fun. I should goback. I'd love to go back and go
and explore and live. Okay,let's do it. Is there a time
machine?
Kimberly Stuart (49:05):
Not that I know of, but if you find one, will
you forward it to my house?
Joshua Johnson (49:09):
I will. I will.
That's got anything you've beenreading or watching lately. You
could recommend.
Kimberly Stuart (49:15):
Oh, always. I just had a conversation earlier
today with the author of thisbeautiful memoir. Her name is
Katherine James and she wrote abook called A Prayer for Orion.
And the subtitle is a son'saddiction and a mother's love
and I don't know a lot about theworld of addiction. I don't know
(49:35):
a lot about parenting in thatspace. And this book is so
beautiful, so beautifullywritten so honest and tender. I
just I absorbed it more than Iread it. So that was it. She's a
Katherine James. She's just awonderful, wonderful author. And
then I'm also so enjoying. Ireally am Joshua this is going
(49:56):
to be a confession time. I'mloving watching the Great
British baking show with myfamily. There are only so many
things that we will all watchtogether. And I can't even
explain to you why we do. Idon't make a lot of bread. I do
bake. But I mark is so funnybecause he and I will sit down.
We'll be like, let's just gowatch the Brits a little bit.
They can't even be mean to eachother. They say things like
(50:17):
chuffing, heck, I hope that'snot a cuss word somewhere else.
I don't think it is. It's likeso like, most angry. We love it.
And then Mark and Mitch willpretend like they're not
interested in they're alwayshovering. There'll be behind the
couch pacing. And I'll hear oneof them say, Wow, awesome.
That's a great cupcake. So I'm afan. I think it's like the best
(50:38):
escape. You can jump in at anytime. And you'll see them
politely beating each other incompetition and so fun.
Joshua Johnson (50:47):
That's so good.
And yes, you we all need that.
Yes. We need their skills. Andyes, and we can escape to this
great confectionery and England.
And
Kimberly Stuart (51:01):
we'll be right with the world. Great. Yes.
Yeah. I love it. As
Joshua Johnson (51:06):
you have been working with writers and
coaching, when you haveinteraction with somebody, when
we speak to somebody hat, howdoes Grace come across somebody
that you are coaching? Like,when do you actually feel like,
oh, this person exudes grace?
What is that? Like? How can youpinpoint what people are like?
(51:31):
Or how they have responded? Orwhat have they embodied in
themselves that then exudes thatgrace?
Kimberly Stuart (51:41):
Yeah, this really goes back to what you
were asking before about story,and how that the idea of story
automatically opens the door tograce. And so I work with a lot
of writers who are writing theirstories and trying to get them
out of their heads onto paper,hopefully, with a barcode
eventually. And they extend alot of grace to me as a coach
(52:05):
and a kind of a compatriot. AndI see with my interactions with
them, it took me a bit to get into remember that what's most
helpful in all conversation, butparticularly in writing cut
conversation, is to listen along time. So my impulse might
be, oh, let's talk about howthis paragraph could be better.
(52:25):
And we go there we, I mean, Icoach with a great guy named
Bob. And he and I have differentgifts, he is just phenomenal at
vision and strategy. And likehelping people really get the
plane up and landed. And mygifting or my strength is to
(52:47):
really look word by word,paragraph by paragraph help
people get some organizationinto all the thoughts that have
been usually whirling around forquite a while. So I, it's an
instinct to me to look at, okay,how can we make this paragraph
sparkly? And how can I help youshape this chapter or this
section or this book, and we getthere. But I think the best way
(53:10):
to get there after doing it fora while is actually to listen
hard and long first to story.
And to to ask more questionsthan to say, here's how to fix
it. Because those conversationsusually end up being part story,
part writing, part punctuation,part crafting, and also part
therapy part Listening part. Imean, something happens when
(53:34):
you're writing that it's just avery, we write things typically
that we've wrestled with, andsometimes we write about
traumatic or hard things to makesense of them. So if I'm doing
my job well, I'm reallylistening to the words
underneath the words and hearingfor listening for where did this
start middle and end and maybeyou're living it now but tell me
(53:58):
more. That usually gets adeduces better writing, but
also, as you've just beautifullysaid, it also induces a whole
cloak of grace around the wholeconversation. It's a beautiful
thing to be a part of.
Joshua Johnson (54:12):
How can people connect with you? How can people
go out and get your book starfor Jesus and other jobs? I
quit. Wherever you like, I wantpeople to
Kimberly Stuart (54:23):
connect with me. I would love for you to
connect with me. I hang out onInstagram at Kimberley dot
Stewart dot writes, love to seeyou there. And then to get the
book really wherever books aresold. We just heard this week. I
haven't even said this publicly.
This is a really greatannouncement. That target is
putting it in all of its bookbrick and mortar stores across
(54:43):
the nation this summer. Sothat's fun. Yeah, that's a
really fun thing. So if you're atarget shopper and you spend way
too much money there is it thatwould be one option, but also
Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anyall of your Indie stores that I
also love so dearly. Be great.
Thank you, My children. Thankyou. My college fund thinks you
Joshua Johnson (55:06):
I'm supposed to start a college fund for my son.
Kimberly Stuart (55:12):
Joshua, we'll do that later. And yes, today.
Joshua Johnson (55:17):
Good. Well, Kim, thank you for this conversation.
It was a blast. I really lovedwalking through some of your
story, walking through grace,figuring out what does it look
like to live in the in betweenand knowing that what God has
said, comes to pass and he hassaid it. So thank you. This was
fantastic. Again, some time.
Kimberly Stuart (55:40):
Oh, I'd love it. Thank you so much for the
kind invitation such athoughtful conversation. I
appreciate it.
That is probably the most healing thing
(00:02):
we can do, honestly, because theshared laughter can kind of
cover over a bunch ofdifferences. That in some sugary
saccharin way, you know, I'm notsaying break out your joke book.
Typically, the better idea is tolisten, right to listen longer,
especially to the people who aredriving you bonkers. And then be
(00:24):
able to kind of moonwalk out ofthe, the harder or the more
conflict ridden place, bytypically poking a little fun at
yourself. Right? That's, Ithink, what we're missing. It's
not just that we're so serious,that we've forgotten that we are
totally flawed, right? We're soeager to talk about everybody
else's issues. make a joke aboutyour own darn self and see how
(00:47):
that goes. Typically, that helpspeople feel like Oh, that's
right. We're all here together.
Joshua Johnson (01:05):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost, Joshua Johnson. Go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
forget to hit the Follow buttonon your favorite podcast app to
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(01:28):
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Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
this podcast with your friends,your family, your network and
tell them how much you enjoy itand let them know that they
should be listening as well. Ifyou're new here, welcome. If you
(01:51):
want to dig deeper find us onsocial media at shifting culture
podcast, where I post videoclips and quotes and interact
with all of you. Previous guestson the show have included Kayla
Craig, Sarah Billups and Toryhope Peterson you can go back
listen to those episodes andmore. But today's guest is
Kimberly Stewart. Kim is awriter, a speaker, a podcaster
(02:11):
and a dark chocolate obsessive.
She is the author of eightnovels and a newly released
nonfiction debut star for Jesusand other jobs I quit. She,
along with New York Times bestselling author Bob Gough have
coached hundreds of aspiringauthors through their executive
coaching, online courses andlive events in the San Diego
(02:34):
area. Stewart has made her homein Minneapolis, Houston,
Chicago, Costa Rica, Nebraskaand Iowa, where she now lives
with a brave husband and threewily children. I had such a
wonderful conversation with Kimabout her journey with grace. In
her new book starfish Jesus, wediscuss Kimberly struggles with
perfectionism and legalism, andhow embracing God's grace has
(02:57):
transformed her life andperspective. We also talked
about the important roles thathumor shared experiences and
vulnerability play in buildingunderstanding and extending
grace to ourselves and to otherswas a thought provoking
discussion about living in thenot yet while recognizing God's
already finished work. So joinus as we laugh, as we share
(03:20):
stories and invoke God's grace.
Here is my conversation withKimberly Stewart. Kim, welcome
to the podcast. So excited tohave you on thank you so much
for joining me.
Kimberly Stuart (03:32):
Oh, golly, it's so fun to be here. Thanks for
the kind invitation.
Joshua Johnson (03:36):
Now, of course, you know, I'd love to figure out
what is your relationship withgrace, like in your life, as you
you sat down, wrote your firstnonfiction book, all about
grace. And so what was yourjourney like with grace in your
life?
Kimberly Stuart (03:55):
It's been a little slippery, I would say. I
mean, I think that's just thenature of grace. It doesn't make
sense to me. It's nonsensical.
In fact, the math in my life ispretty predictable in every
other space except for grace.
And by that I mean, when I putforth effort into something,
(04:15):
then I get paid, or in some waycompensated right, whether
that's at my job, or even inrelationships, we don't really
hang out in general inrelationships where we put forth
a bunch of effort and the otherperson eats bonbons and puts
their feet up and never Jackson.
So this idea of an unmeritedgift, right, a gift that just is
fully, completely whole and mineand I don't have to tap dance
(04:43):
for it and I can't improve uponit. And I also can't take it
away, just slips through myfingers. It just hasn't made
sense to me, and I like thingsto make sense. So I'm a first
born female. I really like boxesthat I can check Golf, I make
lists every day, Joshua. Andthen even if I'm if I do
(05:03):
something that's not on thelist, I, post event, write the
item and then check it off. Sothat's the way I roll. Man, I
love getting things done. AndGrace just does not obey that
system.
Joshua Johnson (05:18):
Yeah, I can feel Yeah, my wife does the same
thing. She loves to check offbox and saying, I got this done.
I got this done. And that's herlove language, I think is
checking off boxes. So if I cando that, then I can show her
this is love.
Kimberly Stuart (05:34):
That's right.
I'm with her. Entertain,
Joshua Johnson (05:38):
as good so as so what is your then role then? As
a are you a perfectionist? Areyou somebody that wants to get
straight A's? Make sure that youhave all the all the things
completed? How has that workedout?
Kimberly Stuart (05:56):
It worked out?
The answer is yes. I love thingsto be completed. I like things
to be done. Well. Sometimes theworld cooperates sometimes I
cooperate with that, andsometimes not. So I think that's
been a huge part of me kind ofholding Grace up into the light,
spinning in a little bit,letting it catch different light
in different seasons. Andfinding that over and over the
(06:19):
grace of Jesus, the grace thatGod's got offers me through
Jesus just does not abandon doesnot turn tail and run according
to what I am doing. So that doesnot jive. With straight A's I
have absolutely love. You know,there are plenty of instances in
(06:42):
the Bible and Paul's very clearabout this, that we are to
pursue excellence right that wewould work heartily as unto the
Lord. So please don't hear mesaying and now it's time for all
of us to lay down on our beds,and say it's all done. We don't
any longer need to do any goodwork, I think works great. I
just somehow was picking upsomewhere along the line. That
(07:04):
work was a part of me gainingentrance to the throne of God,
you know that when in Hebrews,the the writer says, you know,
we get to approach this throneof grace with confidence. I
added my own words to that,which was I need to spit shine
my shoes and make sure I'm inpresentable form before I go
(07:28):
anywhere, much less to go talkto the God of the universe. I
don't know that the peoplearound me were saying this. I
have phenomenal parents. Theydefinitely were not saying this.
And they were definitely notmodeling this. But somewhere
along the line, I definitelypicked up that this must work.
Like everything else works. Sostrap on the tap shoes. Baba,
Joshua Johnson (07:52):
I have a six year old that he is now in the
space where I know that he hedoesn't want to present
something unless it's perfect.
Like he's like, Oh, I messed upon this color and cheap. I need
a brand new one. I'm going tostart over. And it was like a
small little mistake. And so I'mlike, Oh man, you're gonna set
yourself up for a lot ofdifficulty in life. How do we
(08:13):
how do we start to speak intopeople's lives? Like what were
what was happening in the yourparents around you at an early
age? How are you trying toinstill that in your own
children as they were growing upbefore? into a place where grace
does exist? And it's okay. Andyou can't mess up and keep
(08:36):
moving forward?
Kimberly Stuart (08:40):
Yeah, I think what's helpful for me for my own
heart, and then also I have acouple to have three children
are absolutely on theperfectionist roll, they would
have their with your six yearold, they would also say new
sheet, and we ruined to thisone. So I get it. We've got that
in our house for sure. I thinkwhat's helpful for me is to
think about that tendency as agift, right? It's just there are
(09:04):
some spaces in which that giftcan become paralysis. So I
really want my heart surgeon tobe a perfectionist, I went, we
went to go visit my daughterwho's studying abroad right now
we went on this very long planeride to Spain, and I really
wanted my pilot to be aperfectionist, I want that
person to be overly cautious andtalking about checking boxes,
(09:28):
let's just go through all theboxes and then check them again.
So there's a space for that. Butit's a total ninja move right
your son is going to have that'sactually a really beautiful
thing. The problem is if we dragthat into every situation in
every season, and it's a realproblem if we drag it into the
time that we spend with theLord, who our prayer time into
(09:51):
the way we approach, you knowbeing with him and make it a
checkbox situation instead ofjust being with him, which is
you came to do and really messedup everybody else's ideas of
this. So I would say your sonhas a beautiful gift. The
question will be how he canleverage that in the right spot?
Joshua Johnson (10:12):
Oh, I hope he will really do. And I know he
will. He'll be he'll be great.
He has a really great father. Sohe's going
Kimberly Stuart (10:19):
to be yes. I don't see any problems that can
occur. Yeah, exactly.
Joshua Johnson (10:24):
When we're talking about grace, this is
it's a, it's a hard thing.
Because we have totallymisappropriated grace in, in our
modern culture. And we justthrow it out as a as a nice
little platitude. We throw it upon our honored doors and say,
you know, whatever, about grace.
(10:45):
So what is what is grace? Andhow have we miss handled it? In
our lives?
Kimberly Stuart (10:53):
Yeah, sometimes it's better, I think, to ask
what it's not. And I agree withyou. Once you see, I always
think if you see a word on apillow at TJ Maxx, it's time to
brush the dust off. Andremember, again, what was the
original version? If I can pickup something with that it's
1499. Then I, you know, usuallythat means, Okay, it's time to
(11:14):
take a look, again, I think whathas happened, oftentimes, again,
this is such a big and beautifuland profound and ancient idea.
So that's the first piece like,we're not the first people to
ask about this. I like reading alot of writing of very dead,
very old people. And it's funnyhow this comes up. I mean, we're
(11:36):
talking 300 ad 65. AD, already,people are saying, Wait, what is
this? What? How can we wrap ourheads around this in our hearts
around this? So the first pieceis just to know, it's okay, that
it's mysterious. Right? Thatthat doesn't make it less true.
In fact, probably morebeautiful, and it's mystery. But
(11:57):
it is a beautiful job, we haveto try to kind of take the onion
layers off and see what it is.
There's a chapter in the bookwhere we talk about what it's
not. So I'd probably startthere. It's not a weapon. I
think oftentimes, folks haveused that word as a weapon. So
for example, I have a friend whowas told to extend grace to her
(12:19):
abusive husband for decades. Andthe end, the pastor said over
and over, this is your job, youfollow Jesus, you need to extend
grace to this man. And so shehas a had in his kind of
unwrapping, still a very warpedversion of that word. So it's
not a weapon. Grace is notsomething that keeps the lights
off. I think grace works everyone of them on and bust people
(12:43):
out of prison instead of keepingthem there. Grace is a I guess
it for in my own story. Gracehas been this soft spot where I
can see myself so much moreclearly. Because it's in the
(13:03):
light of what God says. Hethinks about me. So it's like
the most specific thing I thinkthat I found. That's another
thing that I've I thinksomewhere along the right line,
we got amazing grace associatedwith people in kilts at
funerals. It's a beautiful song.
And it's kind of a just ageneral amazing grace for
(13:25):
everyone how sweet the sound.
But every it's just like thisblurry painting that God has
made that he's just gracious tous. Capital, US humankind. And I
think crease is so much morespecific than that. The grace
that I have felt God extend tome in my life has my name
written on it. It's in alanguage I can understand. My
(13:45):
dad, when he was about 25 ish,26 he prayed this ridiculous
prayer and said to God, I'mtired of going to church. And
I'm tired of clocking in. Thisis pretty much the end of this
for me, unless you show me thatyou're real. Not an appropriate
(14:06):
prayer. I don't think you'd getany points for finesse. But it
was very honest. And Godresponded to that prayer in a
language that he understood. Andfor Him what that looked like
was two weeks later, I was runover by a car in my neighbor's
front yard in her driveway, andI had a bilateral skull
(14:26):
fracture. And my dad who hasmedical training scooped up his
little girl, which you're neversupposed to do with a head
injury. And we went to thehospital and the doctor said
this is not good. She's it's ashe will likely not function.
And she she could just pass awaythis is not gonna go well for
(14:48):
you. And that brazen guy who hadasked God, are you real? You
better show it to me. He got hisanswer in a language that he
understood. and five days later,I was out of the hospital, I
didn't have surgeries, I didn'teven take Tylenol. The
neurologist at my follow upappointment just kind of sat and
shook his head and kept saying,I don't understand what this is
(15:10):
when I'm yammering in thebackground talking and my two
year old voice so that thatstory is an important story in
my life, my dad 40 years later,still cannot tell it without
crying. Because he knows thatthat shifted everything for him.
I mean, talking about shiftingculture, it shifted the culture
of our family, for generations.
(15:33):
And the reason that is sobeautiful, in addition to what
that gave us as a family, isthat I just see that just the
specificity of God in thatmoment. He knew my dad was not
going a candlelight service, wasa beautiful String Quartet
wasn't going to do it for him.
He can't he couldn't hear that.
That's not who he is. So whenyou ask me what grace is, I
(15:56):
think of stories like that,where they are so personal God
is so absolutely intentionallydetail oriented in the way that
he explains himself to us. Ijust can't think of a kindness
greater than that. So
Joshua Johnson (16:12):
kinds, you know, but when I when I was listening
to that story, and when I wasreading it in your book, I
that's one of the biggest fearsthat I had. And when you know,
my son was a baby. Yeah, it'slike he's like, I really when
I'm backing out of the driveway,I'm looking everywhere, making
sure that he's not around. Yeah,scary. God being in the midst of
(16:36):
that and you being perfectlyokay, is such a miracle. Have
you got a good? Got a goodringtone there too.
Kimberly Stuart (16:48):
I don't even know how that happened. I did
recreate that I wouldn't be ableto.
Joshua Johnson (16:53):
Like what is that? What is that?
Kimberly Stuart (16:58):
Picture of raycast we just came up on my
computer and something happened.
You got Rick rolled? Yeah, bySheridan. Wow. Newly added this
is Rick going to be it's gonnabe probably love it.
Joshua Johnson (17:16):
He would love it. That's, that's perfect. It's
absolutely perfect. But this iswhat happens. I think one, like
what just happened now which Isomething strange happened it
diffuses humor diffuses the theheaviness and the fear and helps
(17:38):
us face what we're goingthrough. A lot of times, you
know, as you said, Hey, acandlelight service, a string
quartet wasn't going to do itfor your dad. He's going to it's
going to take a miraclespecific. A lot of times, to me
specific what Jesus means Jesusisn't just solemn and serious
all the time. Jesus also likesto have fun. And Jesus was show
(18:00):
me that. It's okay to beyourself, to walk in the world
as yourself. What's the role ofhumor for you and grace? And how
does that that parallel in yourlife?
Kimberly Stuart (18:13):
I'm so glad you're bringing this up. humor
was very much a part of mygrowing up. My mom is absolutely
one of the funniest people I'veever met. And I know what you
just said she did. So whenthings would get too hot, the
temperature's going up. Youknow, she had three teenagers at
one point and we all had so manywords and so many feelings. She
(18:36):
I would watch how she wouldcrack a joke or say something
funny, usually pretty selfdeprecating. And the the
temperature would drop 15degrees, right? We'd all
remember oh, wait a minute. Wehave so much. We have so much
here. You know, we're tramplingover it. There's a lot of good
stuff happening here. And sohumor, I think is a superpower.
(18:56):
And I don't know that we in facecircles use it enough. My
husband and I have often laughedabout Dockers humor. And by that
I mean for a long time in the90s I feel like we would sit
early 2000s We'd sit in churchand our pastor who we loved this
was in another city. I want tobe very clear on my current
(19:18):
pastor although I think he doesown Dockers would wear pleated
Dockers when he preached and hewould tell a joke that was
absolutely categorically notfunny. But we would all agree
that we were nice Christians andwe would politely laugh like a
golf clap laugh. You know, I'mtalking about, you know what I'm
(19:38):
talking about here tonight. Forsure, and I'm telling you we are
super supportive of our pastors.
They have the worst and hardestjob so that is a full stop
sentence. And it is really toughto be funny in church. But
pulley humor is medicine. boutSolomon's take on it right? And
(20:00):
so the thing with humor is thatyou can offend people. So that's
why I'm nervous. Yeah, yeah. Andwe don't do it, I think we're
missing out. So the stories inthis book, the story, I'm a
story uncover by nature, I justlike to hear people's stories
like to tell a good story. AndI've watched, I know you've done
(20:21):
I've know, you've seen this toJoshua, that you in a room, you
tell a joke, or you saysomething funny, or someone else
says something funny. There'ssomething that happens. It's
like this shared experience. Andall of a sudden, everybody's
shoulders relax and relax,right? And we decide, oh, we're
in this together. It's, it'smiraculous every time. So if I
want to talk about grace, whichis profound and deep and
(20:44):
beautiful, and a little hard toget my hands around, if I can
invite you into the room withsomething that makes you laugh,
then we feel like we can betogether a little bit. And I
there's a trust building piecethat happens there too. Like,
oh, we've shared that. I don'tknow why I'm sure there's some
there are, you know,psychologist or neuroscientists
(21:06):
who have pinpointed what happensin the brain with that, but
something happens, somethinghappens that won't last.
Joshua Johnson (21:14):
Those people, they they're not very funny. But
they do know what happens whenwe're
Kimberly Stuart (21:22):
totally it's a data collection situation. But
oh, it does happen, you know,that, that we've seen it over
and over. And you've I mean, I'msure with your son and his
friends, and definitely two kidsin high school and one in
college, I watch when they gettogether with their friends. If
they're laughing, that nightgoes longer, right? Not that
(21:42):
there's not a space for in fact,usually the laughter is first.
We're even sandwiches, right?
laugh together, go deepertogether. And then laugh as you
say goodbye. There's somethingreally beautiful about that
rhythm. I think we should do itmore.
Joshua Johnson (21:56):
We do need to do it more. I was teaching a class
on the history of missions. Andafterwards, when I left, I had
somebody come up to me and said,I don't know why people weren't
laughing. I was laughing at allyour jokes. They were funny. And
I was laughing on the inside.
And I'm like, why are we justlaughing on the inside? You
gotta laugh out loud. You gottahelp me out here. And then I go.
I taught the same class the nextnight. And everybody was
(22:21):
laughing. Oh, finally, it was sofun. You know, such a different
room. Yeah. But yeah, man thatlaughter is so important. And I
think one of the things is thatseriousness, I think, even so,
if you think about the crazypolitical nature of our country,
the United States at the moment,that people are offended, if you
(22:44):
say anything, and sell jokes,and defuse things with humor,
everything is so serious, right?
And it would heal us. If welaughed. 100 That's where the
grace comes. Yeah, you actuallyhave grace for somebody when we
(23:04):
can laugh together. Yeah,because right now, we don't
think we can laugh together. Weare there. Because they believe
something different than webelieve. Yeah. We can't laugh
together. How do we how do weshow grace one to another?
Through the laughter? Is thatsomething that's possible? How
(23:26):
can that heal us?
Kimberly Stuart (23:28):
Absolutely.
It's possible. In fact, I thinkit's imperative. I live in Iowa.
Okay. We have political calls tohave every four year cycle like
it's just constant,
Joshua Johnson (23:40):
right? It's crazy. And I'm sorry. Yeah, it's
absolutely nuts. Oh, pants and Ireally
Kimberly Stuart (23:47):
Yeah, it's, it's a deal. But you know what I
noticed when caucus time comesaround and we all go to these
little you know, theneighborhood gym or the
neighborhood precinct. And weget together it's actually
really old school you like writeit on? It's like, it's like
student council elections. Wewrite a person on paper, put it
in a bowl. I said, I'm lookingoutside because I sit with all
(24:07):
my neighbors. And we are howlingthe whole time making jokes
chatting about you know, thingsthat matter to us. It is not get
heated at all, because we loveeach other. And I don't it does
not matter one bit to me, Mrs.
X, what, who you're voting forbecause tomorrow I'm going to be
(24:28):
walking my dog past your house.
And we are friends. So I thinksometimes what we see in the
news or on social media and andthink oh my gosh, everyone hates
each other. No one is agreeing.
Typically, when we get back tothe 5050 feet in front of our
house, the two houses around us.
(24:50):
That's a lot harder to make acase that everything is gone
haywire, because actually, Ilike these people. I don't
really care how they're voting.
I and just have fun with themand have them over for coffee,
or for dinner. And we don't, wedon't need to all be in the same
space where we're voting and wecan laugh together. So
(25:10):
absolutely, that is probably themost healing thing we can do,
honestly, because the sharedlaughter can kind of cover over
a bunch of differences. That insome sugary saccharin way, you
know, I'm not saying break outyour joke book. Typically, the
better idea is to listen, rightto listen longer, especially to
(25:31):
the people who are driving youbonkers. And then be able to
kind of moonwalk out of the, theharder or the more conflict
ridden place, by typicallypoking a little fun at yourself.
Right? That's, I think whatwe're missing, it's not just
that we're so serious is thatwe've forgotten that we are
totally flawed, right? Are soI'm here to talk about everybody
(25:54):
else's issues. make a joke aboutyour own darn self and see how
that goes. Typically, that helpspeople feel like Oh, that's
right. We're all here together.
Yeah. For
Joshua Johnson (26:05):
me, I don't do well is I could extend grace to
lots of different people. And Icould embody Jesus that way. I
could say, here's some grace,Jesus is gonna give it to you,
I'm gonna give it to you. He'sgoing to actually help turn your
life around. I'm not gonna domuch, but I'm gonna give you
some grace. But I can't givemyself grace. I can't get my own
(26:27):
inner monologue or my innerthoughts into the space of
saying, I am enough. And Jesusloves me. Even though I'm a
screw. Yep. How do I extendgrace to myself? There in my
inner monologue?
Kimberly Stuart (26:47):
Oh, yeah, that's the doozy. Right? I think
when I started thinking aboutwriting about grace, I thought,
who's not gonna love grace, wecould use more of it, right. And
then, at some point, I startedhaving to spend way too much
time with this idea, I realizedI had a very narrow view of it.
(27:08):
I thought Grace would be areally great thing, as you said,
to extend to the people in mylife who need it. Preferably
people who I don't have a lot ofcontact with, right, just like
some drive by grace, I likegreat drive by grace is really
fun. Second would be, as I say,in the book that drinks the
difficult people who just don'tleave you, they could be in your
family, they could be in thecarpool lane, the people who
(27:30):
are, you know, kind of AP grace,but maybe the hardest is to me,
it might admit that might betemperament. You know, your six
year old and I might have somehave some real estate they're
together? I don't know. But itdoes seem like we have in
general even for nonperfectionist, we seem to have a
(27:50):
difficult time holding fast tothis idea that God finished this
work. We're just coming out ofEaster. You No, I I just think
his I don't know that it becomesit could become any more
important to me, the longer Ilive, that one of the last
(28:10):
things Jesus said was, it'sdone. It is finished, the work I
had is finished. Because most ofmy life, I have insisted that he
was almost finished and that Ineed to help him with the last
10 or 15%. Right, thanks. I'lltake it from here God, right. So
in a really beautiful white,that would be my own kind of
(28:32):
misguided intentions and alittle more sinister light, it
would be me deciding that Idisagree with God, and that God
actually isn't finished and thathe is wrong. And I don't want to
be in that in that pool. Right?
I don't want to be opposing thisbeautiful work that he's already
done. So typically, when I'mhaving a hard time extending
(28:54):
grace to myself, I find it'svery helpful for me to think
about how I would talk to mychildren or to someone that I
love. If I have a tape playingin my head and tape just shows
you how old I am that I havetaped
Joshua Johnson (29:12):
and you're on hands so that if it comes out of
the cassettes, you could twirlit back in and get
Kimberly Stuart (29:21):
better believe recording off the radio. So I
have my mixtape for Dan Johnsonand fourth period. Okay. If that
tape is on a loop, and I getthere right with with yours and
time asking Jesus what he thinksabout me this has become less
frequent, but it absolutelystill pops up. If the narrative
(29:44):
is something that is inopposition to what God has said
about me that I am beloved, thatI am his that I'm absolutely
never alone. That there issomething beautiful that he has
for me. My own name is A namethat he and I will talk about
when we meet that he only knowsthat he adds his name. For me,
(30:06):
that's an revelation. Like,there are these beautiful things
that he's already said about me.
When I start disagreeing withthat, and deciding, well, but
don't you think I should haveher life? Don't you think I
should run that fast? Don't youthink I should feel shame about
what I have been before whatI've done before? Don't you
think my worth actually isabsolutely on par with what I'm
doing my either my productivityor my own view of righteousness,
(30:29):
right? I mean, I can fill thatbasket fast. When that tape
starts to play. If I can takejust a second and stop and say,
how would I say this? How wouldI talk to Ana? My 21 year old
about her? What would I say tofear who's 15? And sitting in
French class right now? Howwould I respond to Mitch? If he
(30:51):
said to me, you know, I thinkI'm pretty much worthless, or
you know what, I think my sindefines me. I would come out
with guns blazing, to correctthat right? In kindness and
gentleness and to but ferocitysay absolutely not, you're
listening to a voice that is notthe one that made you. So let's
(31:13):
make sure you can tune your earin your heart to Him. If I think
about that conversation, and canjust gently put that toward
myself and think actually, theway God talks to me and about
me, is a lot more in line withhow I would talk to Mitch right
now than what I'm doing to me,that seems to clarify and sifts
through what's actually true.
(31:37):
And what I'm agreeing with,right, what I'm taking to
myself, that actually is just apile of hooey. And
Joshua Johnson (31:44):
you tell yourself that there's a pile of
hooey over and over again,you're gonna see you don't
actually know that you're beinglied to. You just believe it.
Right? believe those lies overand over again. And yeah,
hearing the voice of God andbeing attuned to it is necessary
to extend that grace. And yousaid, Hey, we're, we're at
(32:06):
Easter, It is finished. Butthen, hey, where we live in the
in between? And where theconsummation isn't here yet. So
there's a lot of Death and DecaySin is still rampant in the
world. It there's some uglinessand but it is finished. How do
you how do we reconcile yourwhere we are in the story, that
(32:30):
we know that it's finished, butit's not yet? Yeah. How do we?
How do we live in grace whenthere's still all this junk
happening and rampant out there?
Kimberly Stuart (32:43):
I mean, I am no theologian, and I am no expert.
I have a chair in the room whereI am right now. And I'm looking
over there with my readersbecause I'm elderly, and my
Bible, and I sit there in theearly mornings to remind me,
what is true. What is true.
You're right, we are in the notyet for sure. But everything
(33:03):
I've seen in my story, and inthe story of humanity is that
God does what He says he's goingto do. I was thinking about that
Easter weekend this year.
There's this moment where theangel says to the women at the
tomb, he's risen, just as hesaid. And I kept thinking, just
(33:25):
as he said, why that an angelsaying just as he said, and I
know it's, it was ringing abell, because that's exactly
what happens in Luke's gospel,when the shepherds go home,
marveling and praising God. AndI'm just shocked that it
happened, Just as the angelssaid, just as God had said,
through the angels, this is whatI'm going to do. Bank on it
(33:48):
brothers. He says that again, atthe tomb, when you start to
like, pull that thread startingin Genesis all the way,
sometimes what God says he'sgoing to do takes hundreds of
years, even millennia. But healways does it. He always does.
I was in this Bible study yearsago, where we went through the
whole thing. And it was a lot.
It was a lot of like, I mean,there were a lot of homework
(34:12):
every week. And it was prettyintense. And that probably was
the drumbeat that I took out ofit, because we would go real
deep, real specific. And overand over again, God would say,
I'm going to do this. And thenthe writer of the study would
point us to where he did it. SoI mean, this is the law of
consistent behavior. We don't dothat very well as humans. So
(34:36):
it's very hard for us to imaginethat what He says He will always
do, he will. So when he saysthis is rescue, this is
redemption. This is restoration.
I'm on it. I get to choosewhether or not I believe that he
will do that. But so far when Ilook behind me, he has this week
of faithfulness. I just thinkthat's who he is. I don't know
(34:59):
but he I don't think he'scapable of being anything but
faithful. So in the waiting inthe not yet, that's where I'm,
that's where I'm planting myfeet and my heart. Just make
sense. Hmm. Easy, by the way,etc, right? Plenty of hard
things and suffering and peoplethat we know. And people in
(35:22):
super, super close to me thatare walking in the absolute
midst of every valley of everyshadow of every death. It is
brutal. It is brutal. And weknow, we know that this isn't
new, right? We watched Jesuscome to the tomb of his friend
(35:45):
and bellow, like a wild animal.
That's what that word means hewas angry at death. So we are
not alone and feeling like whatin the world is happening? Is
this it? This is what we havehere. Right? We're not alone in
that. And it's not over, thestory is not over.
Joshua Johnson (36:07):
Doesn't that seem like Grace To You is Jesus
weeping, where others that weepfor his friends, as grief is
happening, that we get to sitand weep together and be
together. That's, that's anextension of grace. That's
something I want to move into.
Kimberly Stuart (36:30):
When you were talking earlier about how you
remember, you have to rememberthat Jesus wasn't just, you
know, with his symptoms, I thinkart has done us wrong with his
curled hair, and plasticexpression. In all of these
paintings, you can forget, helaughed his head off with the
disciples and with his friends.
And he also wept he he was fullyfully fully human. And what a
(36:54):
beautiful extension of gracebecause of all the people in
that scene, Jesus knew whereLazarus was headed, right? He
had an actual experience ofeternity, and where full
restoration happens. And yet hemourned with those who mourn. He
absolutely entered into that. Ifthat's not grace, I don't know.
(37:17):
What is
Joshua Johnson (37:19):
your you're a writer. And you're good writer,
too.
Kimberly Stuart (37:24):
Thank you.
Joshua Johnson (37:26):
You're a good writer. What's this? What's the
role of narrative for us in ourlives? And I mean, you could
throw in like, as at risk, wesponsor grace, narrative grace.
But I think even knowing wherewe are in the story of God is
important as narrative. So inall of what we're talking about,
(37:50):
why is narrative important? Andwhat's the role of narrative?
Kimberly Stuart (37:55):
Well, I take heart as a person who loves
story, I take heart in the factthat Jesus did not stand on the
temple steps with a 10 pointwith bullet points, a brochure
of dogma or doctrine, that wasnot his gig, he did not stand in
front of people and say, Okay,let's turn to page 40. And we're
(38:16):
going to make our way throughthis technical manual. He told
stories about, you know, a boywho scandalized his parents took
all of the money that was due tohim after his dad's death, and
went to eat with pigs. He toldstories about a woman who lost
something that was so sovaluable to her and just
absolutely, in every corner ofher house, worked until she
(38:39):
found it again, she I mean, we,we have a little bit of a
distance from this. So weforget, they're so familiar to
us now that we forget, these arestories, this is narrative over
and over. And the purpose of thenarrative was to help us put
flesh and bones on what it meansto to know and to love God. So
Jesus did I feel like we can doit. Like, I feel like and we all
(39:00):
know this, right? When we'veheard a talk or a sermon, and
you kind of zone out, maybe justfor a little hot second. And
then the speaker says, you know,this reminds me of a time when I
was in a car with my daughter,and then we pick up because
something happens with story. Sofor grace in the purpose or the,
the beauty of grace, I mean,money is a purpose that sounds
bullet pointy, the glory, theweight of grace, I think just
(39:24):
gets heavier and more profoundwhen we share our story. There's
something unique about yourstory and my story and the
stories of our listeners, thatthere's only one lens, there's
only one person who lived withthat. And so, I mean, we talked
before about people having ahard time getting a long story
(39:46):
usually diffuses some of thattension. It's very difficult to
poopoo someone who says, Well,this is this was my life. This
is how this worked. Right? If Istart out by saying, let's talk
about a few steps tosanctification. And I want to
(40:06):
really go over that open Romans,there is a crowd that will go
there with you. But usually thatcrowd already loves Romans, that
people who don't know Jesus yetor haven't held fast to grace,
yeah, and even people who doknow Jesus and have forgotten
grace, we can have a totallydifferent conversation. If you
start out by saying, here is thepivot point, when I realized
(40:30):
there was nothing I could do toearn the favor of God, I was
completely at his mercy. Andboy, what a great thing. Right?
I was on the corner of such andsuch, and this is what happened.
I was in my living room at 3am.
And this is what happened. Like,when you enter the personal
space of a story, theconversation gets richer, and it
gets way more honest.
(40:53):
Immediately. It says it's asuperpower. And I love it. And I
think I'm not the first thingbecause obviously, God could
have revealed himself in so manyways, and you use the storybook.
So yeah,
Joshua Johnson (41:05):
I know. It's crazy. It's amazing. I mean, I
don't I can't tell you how manyliving rooms I've sat in,
especially Syrian refugee livingrooms, where were you just told
stories, stories of God at workin our own lives, stories of
Jesus from the Bible. Andstories are the things that draw
people. And it was story afterstory after story. And we, I
(41:28):
mean, I need to remind myselfthat Jesus stories are happening
to me all the time. And I couldtell those stories constantly.
And you tell a lot of thosestories in your book. And it is
different for you than you havein the past. In the past, if you
have written novels, written alot of fiction, this is your
(41:49):
first foray into nonfiction. Didyou have a vulnerability
hangover? What was it like?
baring your soul? At present, Ido have a vulnerability
hangover. How is it to bare yoursoul? As you know, previously,
you're telling, you know,fictionalized stories, now
you're telling your own story ofhow God's grace has met you?
(42:11):
What was that? Like? How is thatdifferent than than fiction?
Kimberly Stuart (42:18):
Well, even hearing you ask that question
makes me wonder again, it wasn'tso good. You create characters,
you can just kill them off, youknow, chapter six, it's not
going well. Well, Aunt Irma,sorry to see you go. But you
cannot do it when you're tellingtrue stories. And Irma is really
(42:40):
fully a part of your familyforever. So in some ways,
writing my own story easierbecause I lived it in my I
didn't have to, you know, Icould just inhabit the scene
really, and tell what I saw. Butin other ways, just as you said,
Oh, heavens to Betsy, this isnot a book of tiptoeing. I
(43:05):
wouldn't I didn't do a lot oftiptoeing. I really told some
stories that were really storiesI didn't want to write, right.
And those usually are thestories that readers talk about
more to you right to say Ineeded freedom like that, too.
So I know that there is a costand that the cost is worth it.
(43:26):
But there is a cost for sure.
For the storytelling, I leanedvery much into some of the
fiction things, you know,fiction, tips and tricks that
I've used many times there'sdialogue there scene, building a
lot of like the arc of a story,I feel pretty comfortable with
that. So in some ways, I hadsome of those tools that I had
been using for a while, butnothing really has prepared me
(43:48):
for, again, as you say that justthe vulnerability hangover, the
idea that wow, these have beenin my head in my heart for a
long time, but I've been able tochoose when I let them out of
the bag, and now they are fullyon heavyweight paper in hardback
form. So you and I are talkingpre released, so maybe call me
in about six months and asked meif it was worth it. I'll let you
(44:13):
know.
Joshua Johnson (44:18):
I think it was worth it. I mean, it's a it's a
wonderful book, and I reallyenjoyed it. So as people are
going to start to pick up yourbook, what is your hope for your
readers? What do you hope thatthey would get out of this? Oh,
Kimberly Stuart (44:36):
you asked really wonderful questions.
You're very good podcast hostsand also transitions are
phenomenal. That's hard to do.
I'm just calling it out righthere that's really hard to do
well, so what I've done. My hopefor the reader is twofold. One
is lighter in that I really hopethat he or she laughs Maybe
cries a couple times and just Itsits and kind of, again, brushes
(45:01):
that dust off of this beautifulword. I hope it's a book of, I
hope that the storytelling opensthe door really wide to the
room. And then on a on a more, Idon't know, I would say
profound, but I don't feel likea profound person, a deeper and
(45:21):
maybe more lasting hope, reallywould be that the reader would
remember again, the ridiculous,beautiful way tea, gift of
grace, and that that he or shewould be able to put aside the
(45:43):
math that we keep attaching toit right either adding to it
here, God, I will help you andperform for you. And this is
going to make you like me more,or subtracting and deciding who
gets grace. Were constantly withthis abacus deciding how to let
grace be less than it is. And myhope would be for my own heart
and for the heart of the reader.
(46:06):
That grace really would beallowed to flourish and be
amazing. It's still amazing,this grace that we sing about
and read about and nod our headsabout. And I want it to sink in
deep and grow roots in ourlives.
Joshua Johnson (46:21):
That's beautiful. I you know, as I was
reading that, I was like, hey,there's some people that that
need to read this book. And thenI finally realized, oh, this
book is for me, I need to readthis book. I need I need the
grace. That's. And I think a lotof times we often think, oh,
that grace over there is for therich over there when it's not to
(46:45):
read like for us like we have,we got our nice little life that
we can control. And we're okay.
And we don't need it. But wereally do. And we need it. So I
need this book. And it was itwas great. And so thank you for
letting me laugh. Along withyou. And let me Yeah, cry tears
with you. It's a it's abeautiful work. So thank you.
(47:10):
Thank you for that.
Kimberly Stuart (47:13):
That's kind words, I just feel hold them.
Thank you so much. You
Joshua Johnson (47:18):
are welcome. I have a couple questions I like
to ask here at the end. One isif you go back to your 21 year
old self, what advice would yougive?
Kimberly Stuart (47:29):
Wow, 21. You know, I mentioned I have a 21
year old daughter. And so I feellike in many ways, we're having
all the conversations that I didat that time with my mother. So
this is fresh 21 year old me Iwould love to encourage her to
relax and take a breath kid,you're hearing a theme here, I
(47:53):
was very intent on doing theright thing. And in some ways,
that is just such a great, greatimpulse to have. But it also can
make you second guess everythingin your effort to do it well. So
that would probably be one ofthe things I said to myself. I
would also say you're gettingmarried in a couple of years, I
(48:14):
really would recommend that whenyou go move to Costa Rica with
Mark. Just you don't even haveto get a job. You know why?
Because you are going to workway too hard. Earn $14 a day and
you should just go travel more.
That's probably what I would sayto her. That's timely. That's a
timestamp issue for
Joshua Johnson (48:34):
I agree. And so, go travel, enjoy Costa Rica see
the world and just live yourlife and enjoy it. Yeah, you're
only you really are only on onceand
Kimberly Stuart (48:49):
it's not now.
The ones on
Joshua Johnson (48:52):
the young youth is wasted on the young. That
would have been fun. I should goback. I'd love to go back and go
and explore and live. Okay,let's do it. Is there a time
machine?
Kimberly Stuart (49:05):
Not that I know of, but if you find one, will
you forward it to my house?
Joshua Johnson (49:09):
I will. I will.
That's got anything you've beenreading or watching lately. You
could recommend.
Kimberly Stuart (49:15):
Oh, always. I just had a conversation earlier
today with the author of thisbeautiful memoir. Her name is
Katherine James and she wrote abook called A Prayer for Orion.
And the subtitle is a son'saddiction and a mother's love
and I don't know a lot about theworld of addiction. I don't know
(49:35):
a lot about parenting in thatspace. And this book is so
beautiful, so beautifullywritten so honest and tender. I
just I absorbed it more than Iread it. So that was it. She's a
Katherine James. She's just awonderful, wonderful author. And
then I'm also so enjoying. Ireally am Joshua this is going
(49:56):
to be a confession time. I'mloving watching the Great
British baking show with myfamily. There are only so many
things that we will all watchtogether. And I can't even
explain to you why we do. Idon't make a lot of bread. I do
bake. But I mark is so funnybecause he and I will sit down.
We'll be like, let's just gowatch the Brits a little bit.
They can't even be mean to eachother. They say things like
(50:17):
chuffing, heck, I hope that'snot a cuss word somewhere else.
I don't think it is. It's likeso like, most angry. We love it.
And then Mark and Mitch willpretend like they're not
interested in they're alwayshovering. There'll be behind the
couch pacing. And I'll hear oneof them say, Wow, awesome.
That's a great cupcake. So I'm afan. I think it's like the best
(50:38):
escape. You can jump in at anytime. And you'll see them
politely beating each other incompetition and so fun.
Joshua Johnson (50:47):
That's so good.
And yes, you we all need that.
Yes. We need their skills. Andyes, and we can escape to this
great confectionery and England.
And
Kimberly Stuart (51:01):
we'll be right with the world. Great. Yes.
Yeah. I love it. As
Joshua Johnson (51:06):
you have been working with writers and
coaching, when you haveinteraction with somebody, when
we speak to somebody hat, howdoes Grace come across somebody
that you are coaching? Like,when do you actually feel like,
oh, this person exudes grace?
What is that? Like? How can youpinpoint what people are like?
(51:31):
Or how they have responded? Orwhat have they embodied in
themselves that then exudes thatgrace?
Kimberly Stuart (51:41):
Yeah, this really goes back to what you
were asking before about story,and how that the idea of story
automatically opens the door tograce. And so I work with a lot
of writers who are writing theirstories and trying to get them
out of their heads onto paper,hopefully, with a barcode
eventually. And they extend alot of grace to me as a coach
(52:05):
and a kind of a compatriot. AndI see with my interactions with
them, it took me a bit to get into remember that what's most
helpful in all conversation, butparticularly in writing cut
conversation, is to listen along time. So my impulse might
be, oh, let's talk about howthis paragraph could be better.
(52:25):
And we go there we, I mean, Icoach with a great guy named
Bob. And he and I have differentgifts, he is just phenomenal at
vision and strategy. And likehelping people really get the
plane up and landed. And mygifting or my strength is to
(52:47):
really look word by word,paragraph by paragraph help
people get some organizationinto all the thoughts that have
been usually whirling around forquite a while. So I, it's an
instinct to me to look at, okay,how can we make this paragraph
sparkly? And how can I help youshape this chapter or this
section or this book, and we getthere. But I think the best way
(53:10):
to get there after doing it fora while is actually to listen
hard and long first to story.
And to to ask more questionsthan to say, here's how to fix
it. Because those conversationsusually end up being part story,
part writing, part punctuation,part crafting, and also part
therapy part Listening part. Imean, something happens when
(53:34):
you're writing that it's just avery, we write things typically
that we've wrestled with, andsometimes we write about
traumatic or hard things to makesense of them. So if I'm doing
my job well, I'm reallylistening to the words
underneath the words and hearingfor listening for where did this
start middle and end and maybeyou're living it now but tell me
(53:58):
more. That usually gets adeduces better writing, but
also, as you've just beautifullysaid, it also induces a whole
cloak of grace around the wholeconversation. It's a beautiful
thing to be a part of.
Joshua Johnson (54:12):
How can people connect with you? How can people
go out and get your book starfor Jesus and other jobs? I
quit. Wherever you like, I wantpeople to
Kimberly Stuart (54:23):
connect with me. I would love for you to
connect with me. I hang out onInstagram at Kimberley dot
Stewart dot writes, love to seeyou there. And then to get the
book really wherever books aresold. We just heard this week. I
haven't even said this publicly.
This is a really greatannouncement. That target is
putting it in all of its bookbrick and mortar stores across
(54:43):
the nation this summer. Sothat's fun. Yeah, that's a
really fun thing. So if you're atarget shopper and you spend way
too much money there is it thatwould be one option, but also
Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anyall of your Indie stores that I
also love so dearly. Be great.
Thank you, My children. Thankyou. My college fund thinks you
Joshua Johnson (55:06):
I'm supposed to start a college fund for my son.
Kimberly Stuart (55:12):
Joshua, we'll do that later. And yes, today.
Joshua Johnson (55:17):
Good. Well, Kim, thank you for this conversation.
It was a blast. I really lovedwalking through some of your
story, walking through grace,figuring out what does it look
like to live in the in betweenand knowing that what God has
said, comes to pass and he hassaid it. So thank you. This was
fantastic. Again, some time.
Kimberly Stuart (55:40):
Oh, I'd love it. Thank you so much for the
kind invitation such athoughtful conversation. I
appreciate it.
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