Ep. 183 Yolanda Solomon - Effective Discipleship: Encountering Jesus, Loving Others Well - Shifting Culture

Episode Transcript
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Yolanda Solomon (00:00):
discipleship is receiving the invitation

(00:03):
receiving Jesus's invitation toparticipate in the divine life,
right to to literally follow himto follow in his footsteps. And
what that requires is anencounter with Jesus it it
requires an encounter with thebeauty and the person of Jesus.

Joshua Johnson (00:35):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcasts in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
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(00:57):
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(01:20):
to dig deeper find us on socialmedia at shifting culture
podcast where I post video clipsand quotes and interact with all
of you. Previous guests on theshow. I've included only Oka
Wahby Jessie Cruickshank andJonathan Tremaine, Thomas, you
go back, listen to thoseepisodes and more. But today's
guest is Yolanda Solomon ulandais the director of discipleship

(01:42):
at epiphany church in Brooklyn,New York, where she teaches and
creates discipleship, curriculumand resources. She has also
worked in campus ministry atColumbia University in New York,
where she was blessed to serveundergraduate students for eight
years. ulanda recently publishedher first book titled
discipleship as holycollaboration, helping others
follow Jesus in real life. It'savailable. Now, Yolanda is a

(02:05):
disciple of Christ, a Brooklynnative and a lifelong Knicks
fan, which richly fuels herprayer life. ulanda shares what
effective discipleship lookslike in this conversation. It's
important to encounter Jesus'sbeauty in person rather than
just focus on behaviormodification. And in this
conversation, she highlightsexamples of communal and

(02:28):
experiential discipleship,navigating cultural biases by
focusing on Jesus andunderstanding identity and
authority in Christ. We alsotalk about justice and
embodiment through followingJesus's care for the poor and
the marginalized, as well asmoving discipleship from a
classroom model to moreparticipatory experiences and

(02:49):
apprenticeship. So, join us aswe discover what effective
discipleship looks like. Here ismy conversation with ulanda
Solomon ulanda. Welcome toshifting culture. Really excited
to have you on thank you so muchfor joining me.

Oh, it's my pleasure, Joshua. Thank you for
having me.

Yeah, this book discipleship is holy
collaboration. It's fantastic.
You do a great job of bringingit from a what we thought maybe
discipleship is an intellectualexercise of information, but
bringing it actually into apractical following of Jesus,
what's it look like to followJesus together? As a community
of believers and one another asa mentor? mentee? It's

(03:33):
fantastic. I love it. So as anintroduction to you, and some of
what you mean by discipleship,can you tell me a story about
how you were discipled? That'sfantastic.

Yeah, no, I mean, I've been discipled. In
many ways. I grew up in apredominantly black church in
Brooklyn, New York. And youknow, I think discipleship is a
word that I think I learned alittle later on in life. We
didn't really call itdiscipleship. Growing up, it was
just, you know, Sunday school. Ihad great Sunday school
teachers, one of my fondestmemories, as a child is our

(04:12):
youth pastor, Reverend Carl,Dara saw, who prays God is still
with us on the communionSundays, which was the first
Sunday in the Baptist Church. Wewould go after church to nursing
homes, and we would and youknow, we're teenagers, right?
And we would go with the deaconsand the youth pastor and, and

(04:34):
Reverend Doris or one of thedeacons would give a brief
summation of the sermon, theywould give Communion to you
know, we called our sick andshut in members. And we would
sing a hymn and, you know, backthen, I remember like that
feeling super special. And Iremember feeling like, this is
different than sitting in churchand hearing a sermon, and I

(04:57):
didn't have words to put to it,I wouldn't have called Hold it
then embodied worship. But like,even then I knew there was
something about following Jesuswith people in like, with all my
senses, like there was somethingabout going to the nursing home,
there was something aboutsinging about the drinking of
the grape juice and holding, youknow, the soft and wrinkled hand

(05:18):
of an elderly. And just seeingthe joy, you know, in their
faces and me feeling like this,this feels different than
sitting and receiving, like I'mdoing something I'm
participating is thing that isbringing joy and bringing life,
you know, and it's not hard. Youknow, it's not it's like, you

(05:38):
know, so yeah, I don't know ifthat makes sense. But that's one
example of discipleship. I thinkanother example would be, you
know, as an older person, youknow, a young adult. What I
think most people what will cometo mind when most people think
of discipleship, I'm in 1999,I'm in college. I, you know, I
went to college in upstate NewYork, but I knew I wanted to

(06:00):
work in television and radio,and my college had a Internship
Program, where you would liveout in Los Angeles for a
semester. And so I did I, youknow, wanted to decide, am I
going to live in New York, or amI going to live in LA. And so
when I went out there, there wasa young woman who was a member
of my same church back inBrooklyn. And she's, you know,
by this time, she's a successfulactress, she's on a sitcom. And

(06:23):
she basically, I would say,discipled me without me knowing
it. I'm know a 20 year old,aspiring screenwriter at the
time, you know, and I've got myplans to go out there and shoes
and get a job after graduation.
I was ready. You know, what my$75 a week paycheck, you know,
and I'm stocking Diet Cokes inthe fridges of the executives

(06:45):
and I'm, you know, dreaming offame and fortune. And she just
loved me and I say in the book,in my book, that the one of the
most loving and Christlikethings she did for me was drive
through LA traffic to come getme pick me up helped me to get
groceries and bring me homebecause I do know

that LA traffic is no joke. And I

did not know it's not Brooklyn, you know,
saying like, I had no clue. Ididn't even have a driver's
license. That's how New YorkCity I am Who needs a driver's
license. And so I was like, howam I going to get groceries? So
anyhow, her name is ArianaJohnson. And she would just come
get me. You know, when I got outthere. She was the first person
I called. I called her because Iwanted her to connect me with

(07:28):
our friends in the industry. ButGod had other plans, I say, and
she loved me. And I say that sheshowed me Jesus. She showed me
what Jesus looked like with herlife. And eventually she did
invite me to church, but really,she would just listen she was an
ear. She was she allowed me tojust you know, she shared her
community with me. I didn't knowanyone out in LA. And I got to

(07:52):
see Jesus through her life. Shewas working for her church at
the time. She's a traineddancer, as well as an actress.
You know, she'd done Alvin Aileyand Martha Harkness ballet,
excuse me. I believe MarthaGrimm as well. And she was
laying down her gifts to serveher church. But I say she also
served me. She one of the thingsI remember is, she was never

(08:15):
different. She never switchedup, whether she was around her
industry friends, and, you know,she'd been in movies with, you
know, a list actors, or whethershe was just in the car with me
going to Trader Joe's, she wasthe same person. And I was
secretly like admiring thatabout her. I didn't let her you
know, I was too cool to let on.
But she was sneakily modeling avery Christ like life in front

(08:35):
of me. And I say, like, shedidn't have to, like she was
cool. You know, I mean, like,and she just had options to do
other things. And I rememberjust thinking, like, she's
probably the happiest person Iknow, out here. You know, I'm
interning for a major productioncompany. I'm interning for a,
you know, a TV sitcom calledDawson's Creek, I'm, I'm dating

(08:56):
myself here. And all of theseexecutives and these people I
want to be like, and I'mrealizing this woman has so much
joy, whether she's working ornot, which I found out was a big
deal in LA. And she just seemsto just have this even keel joy
about her. And she just made itfollowing Jesus look fun. Yeah,

(09:17):
so that's a little bit there.

I think those those are great examples of
discipleship. What does it looklike for you to embody that
other people embody it make itpart of their entire life? So
when we think of discipleship,and you think of what Jesus
modeled, what is discipleshipand what is it not? Wow.

I'll start with what it isn't. I was one of the
things I say is discipleship isnot behavior modification. And
the reason I say this is I workas the director of discipleship
at our local church here inBrooklyn epiphany church. And so
what will happen on a Sunday ispeople To someone who come up to

(10:01):
me after church and say, Hey,can we talk, hey, let's schedule
a conversation. So we, you know,I'll call them and they'll say,
ulanda, I want to pray better.
ulanda I want to follow Jesusmore, you know, I want to do
better. You know, I want to readmy Bible more. And in and this
awesome iteration, they're off.
And what they're saying is, Iwant to be a better Christian, I

(10:22):
want to act like a betterChristian, I want to be a Dave,
like a better Christian. And atthat moment, I can give them a
list of things to do, which isusually what they want, you
know, they want here's, what aresome tips and tools I can, you
know, use to read my Bible more,to pray more, even when I don't

(10:43):
want to, like how can Idiscipline myself, these are the
words they use, you know, like,I don't really have the self
control, and I wouldn't be moredisciplined. And honestly, that
would probably make my job a loteasier. But But what those
things it doesn't touch theirhearts. And so what I believe
discipleship is, is discipleshipis receiving the invitation,
receiving Jesus's invitation toparticipate in the divine life,

(11:07):
right to to literally follow himto follow in his footsteps. And
what that requires is anencounter with Jesus, it it
requires an encounter with thebeauty and the person of Jesus.
And so what I usually do isstart asking them questions,
like, What do you mean, when yousay, pray better? What do you

(11:28):
mean? And usually, when it getsdown to it, it's like, I don't
really have the desire to dothese Christian things. And I
feel guilty, and I feel ashamed.
And and so then that's helpful,because now this gets us to a
place of, alright, well, let'sdeal with that. And one of the
places I love to take people isto like John chapter seven,

(11:48):
where Jesus says, you know, ifanyone thirst, you know, come to
me and shrink. And what thatdoes is it reminds us that Jesus
cares about our desires, Jesusactually knows that following
him has more to do with what welove than what we know. Right?
Usually people want like somedoctrine, they want some

(12:09):
information, they want sometips, they want some scriptures
to memorize. And it's like, Nah,Jesus, like, I know you have
desires, bring them to me, orbring or even better bring your
lack of desire to me. And, andas you encounter me, let me
transform you and transform who,what and how you love,
progressively. And so now thismoves the conversation to what

(12:33):
are some practices that shapeyour love? What are some
practices that are going toshape, who, what and how you
love and then let's look at howJesus loves, let's look at,
like, you know, let's look atJesus's work life balance. I
like to say, you know, like,what is what is Jesus love, and
you know, you read, we will gothrough some scriptures, and

(12:56):
it's like, wow, Jesus lovespeople. Jesus really seems to
love people. Well, how, like,how does this happen? You know?
And so from there, I think, youknow, let me try to sum it up.
Just if discipleship isreceiving an invitation,
receiving Jesus's invitation tofollow to follow in his
footsteps I need to look at,well, how does Jesus walk? How

(13:18):
does Jesus walk? And how doeshow Jesus walk, shapes how Jesus
loves, you know it, and throughthat we get to Okay, now let's
look at what's shaping how youlove, and it's usually men,
fantasy sports is, you know,happy hour is, you know, my
success or my job is shaping howI love, you know, you know,

(13:43):
shopping is shaping how I love,you know, how I view the future
and now we can in a way that'snot, you know, condemning
people, or trying to beat themup, getting them to see how,
what they do shapes how theylove. And what if sanctification
is more about what we lovechanging progressively over

(14:05):
time, then what we know. Soyeah, hopefully that was
helpful. Yeah,

I think that's it. That's a helpful
distinction. Because if we weknow that our nose, our our kn o
W's our knowledge doesn'ttransform us if we have it,
disembodied from the rest of ourlife. If it's not connected to
the rest of our life, then wecan't transform. Yeah, you know,

(14:37):
Paul does say be renewed by thetransforming of your mind. But
part of that, I think isthinking about okay, the
transformation happens whenwe're starting to act different
and do different and bedifferent. It with our
relationships, our loves ourrelationship with Jesus and with
one another. Like

as you're speaking is wild because I'm
thinking about like, in Johnchapter 13, Jesus washes the
disciples feet. Right? And thisis part of this upper room
discourse, where it's like hislast few words, it's like, you
know, what would you say if youhad 24 hours with your
disciples, Jesus washes theirfeet. And then he says, Make

(15:19):
this a pattern, right? I'mparaphrasing, like, like, what
I'm how I'm serving you, and howI'm loving you. Is, is what I
want you to make a pattern afterI'm on. And why would he do
that? I think Jesus knows thatthere is this. There is this
relationship between the doingand beloved, like, every time

(15:40):
you do what I did for you, everytime you wash someone's feet,
rather woods, metaphorically, orwhether it's a literal
footwashing, you're going toremember my love for you. And
it's going to transform how youeven view serving, because
you're serving is going to beit's going to flow from, you
know, you're you're you're beingloved by me and what that has

(16:04):
done to you, and how that nowgives you a renewed desire to
want to, to love people the wayI love to you. Yeah, that makes
sense. That

makes a lot of sense. That's really good.
Because that's, that's whatwe're trying to get to, I could
go out and serve, I could dothese things. I prophesy in
Jesus name. And Jesus neverknows us. Like we could do all
these things. But even the actof doing, we're not following
closely to Jesus, we're notloving Jesus or loving others,

(16:38):
we're doing it for a lot oftimes, so that I can look good,
that other people around me canlook at me and say, wow, look,
Josh was an amazing follower ofJesus. So I'm doing it for my
own own pride, and my own rightmy own thing, and not for the
love of Jesus. Right,

or I'm doing it so that God will like me more. I
feel like I'm constantlyreminding myself, and I'm
constantly reminding those thatare served that God already
loves you. Here, like we're nottrying to curry favor with God.
By doing these things. It has toflow from our a change in what

(17:21):
we view as what James K Smith,I'm a big fan of James K. Smith,
philosopher would call it whatwe view as the abundant life or
what we view as the good life.
Like, I'm always telling mykids, it really is better to
give than to receive. And Ipromise you that you'll only
know that until you startgiving, you know, and they're
like, now mom, that sounds likea cop out. And now I'm like, No,

(17:43):
I promise you, there's somethingin the giving. They're like when
I gave giving guys gifts andpresents, I love to watch your
face when you open up that giftin that present. And I feel like
that's how God looks at us, youknow, but that that takes an
entire shift of what we view,the good life being and I think,

(18:04):
you know, we get glimpses ofthat type of glory sometimes.
But it's really one of thosethings like you got to try me
you got to taste and see thatthis is actually the best way to
live. And, and slowly, you know,your how you love, others will
change. And it'll change in away that you'll be able to do it
and not get burned out. Becausewe got a lot of burnt out

(18:24):
Christians, bitter Christians.
You know, in my book, I callthem bored, but busy Christians
who are going through themotions and to be honest,
Joshua, they fallen out of lovewith Jesus, and they feel so
guilty about it, because they'relike, I don't even want to do
this anymore. I'd rather go tobrunch. I'd rather spend my
Sundays watching sports, youknow, and they've lost that

(18:47):
zeal. And what I again, I remindmyself, I'm mostly preaching to
myself and to them, that thereis something in the
participating in the miraclethat God is doing in someone
else's life. That is life givingfor you. You know, and when I
think about that Samaritan womanin John chapter four, that is

(19:08):
probably one of the bestexamples of discipleship that I
can think of right? Like sheencounters Jesus, she encounters
his beauty, she encounters histruth, he listens to her. They
have lengthy conversations, sheis seen by Jesus, she is loved
by Jesus, her soul thirst isquenched by Jesus to the point
where she leaves her little herlittle cup behind, and to the

(19:31):
point where she runs back to thesame community that did her
dirty to tell them about thisman, like, I wouldn't have gone
back to them, I would have keptit for myself, you know, but she
goes back to the same people whohave shunned her that, you know,
scholars say, you know, she wasshe was she was abandoned five
times, right? She was marriedfive times, but in that culture,

(19:53):
you know, she probably 1314 Soshe's been abandoned and
discarded five times. And soshe's never met a man like
Jesus. sees her and speaks toher and has the audacity to
engage her like a human being,much to the dismay of his male
disciples. And this encounter isso formative that she is able to
go back to a community thatthat's probably not a safe the

(20:14):
safest place, and invite themYanni to meet this man I just
met. And it's it, there's no begreat, like, it's not drudgery.
It's not. And they actually say,You know what, your testimony
was nice, but we want to meet,we want to encounter him and she
says, Fine, you know, and I haveto believe that that's what
Jesus calls us to, you know, butit's not us alone. I think

(20:37):
sometimes we can feel thatdiscipleship is too heavy, I
can't do this. And I think it'sbecause we try to do it alone.
But when I think aboutscripture, and I think about
even that story of thatSamaritan woman, fast forward, I
think to Acts chapter nine, whenPhilip the apostle goes to
Samaria, I have to believe thatthere was some fruit that she
kind of tilled the ground ofSamaria, and prepared Samaria

(21:01):
for Philip. So now when he goes,You know, he's he's, he's
following in her footsteps, shefollowed in Jesus footsteps. And
that's why I call discipleship,a group project. You know, my
friend in Los Angeles area ondidn't try to disciple me alone,
she shared her community withme. And I have to believe that
that took a little bit of thepressure off her to know that

(21:24):
yeah, this is this is a work ofthe Holy Ghost that I'm
participating in. She'sdiscipling me, as the Holy
Spirit does the heavy lifting ofheart transformation in my
heart. But there's also otherbelievers who are involved in
this group project that are alsopouring into me and answering
questions. And I think that sortof communal nature of

(21:46):
discipleship can get lost. Whenwe only stick to these one on
one, I got to have coffee andPanera with somebody for two
hours a week by myself, and, youknow, help them dissect the book
of Romans. I don't have time forthat great. But most people I
know, don't have time for that,you know?

I mean, okay, one of the things in that story
in John For and the Samaritanwoman, that she's asking a lot
of questions of, is my culture,right? Or is your culture right?
Like, you say, you know, worshipover there. We say worship here.
And Jesus doesn't say anythingabout culture is like, okay,

(22:26):
we're redefining something intothe kingdom of God, or
worshipping in spirit and truth,you have a whole section about
in your book about disciplinginto culture or discipling,
towards Jesus, what is thedistinction? Why, how do we not
fall into the trap of justregurgitating our own culture

(22:49):
and discipling into that?
Especially in group settings,right, your collaboration,
because now we got, hey, look atus at our, our little, you know,
distinct church culture, we'regonna disciple you into that,
then so what does it look likethen to, to disciple towards
Jesus and not to a culture? Oh,

that's a big question. I think the first
thing is to recognize that youhave a culture. I think some of
us can think, Oh, I'm just ablank slate. I, you know, we we
look at the way we follow Jesusas the objective way to follow
Jesus and don't realize that weall read the scriptures, through

(23:33):
our own cultural lens, our ownsocio economic lens, our own
gendered lens out, like, webring our background, like I
read the gospel narrative aboutthe woman with the issue of
blood differently, because Iknow what it is to bleed every
month, right? Like, so justthere, right? I'm coming to text
with someone that has neverexperienced that, you know, and

(23:55):
with a bit of empathy. And sothat's just one example. But so
I think the first thing is torecognize that you have a
culture and that your culture isnot, you know, the norm, the
objective norm. And that remindsme that, oh, wait a minute, I'm
reading this and bringing mybias to the text. And then let's
go back and look at Jesus andsee that Jesus also was born in

(24:18):
a culture. So how does Jesusnavigate his his call, to
proclaim the good news toSamaritans and to Jews, right.
And so one of my favoritenarratives in the Scripture is
in Luke chapter nine, when Jesusis sending out the disciples to,

(24:40):
you know, follow in hisfootsteps, and to proclaim the
good news and they meet someSamaritans. And the Samaritans
aren't excited about Jesus. Andthey asked Jesus, shall we call
down fire on the Samaritans?
Like, this is what they want.
They got new towers, right. It'slike whoa, we got We got powers

(25:00):
now. Jesus has given themauthority Jesus has given them
power. He's given theminstructions about being
dependent on him. And they'relike, let's use our new
superpowers to call fire down onour cultural enemies. And the
Bible says in Luke chapter nine,think it's verse 5054 55. Jesus
rebukes them. And in thatmoment, Jesus reminds them, your

(25:22):
cultural enemies are not mine.
Okay? Like, in fact, if we haveany enemies, what we should do
is love them. And so when I amwalking alongside someone, and
trying to help them and nudgethem in the direction of
following Jesus, I'm remindingthem that even the way I follow

(25:42):
is is, is, is impacted throughmy cultural lens. And the goal
is to follow Jesus to pointpeople toward Jesus, not not
culture, not politics, you know,and this can be as simple as you
know, I remember years ago, youknow, being in churches where,

(26:03):
you know, certain instrumentsweren't allowed to be played,
you know, they had demonic drumsor demonic metallic drums,
demonic, you know, I always wantto praise him with the symbol,
praise him with the hi hat,praise him loud, crashing symbol
that's in the Bible, right? Butjust being taught that a certain
cultural norm, even expositorypreaching, you know, I went to I

(26:26):
went to evangelical seminary,and my master's program was co
located between city Seminary ofNew York, which is in New York
City, and evangelical Seminaryin Philadelphia. And I just
remember, you know, you it'snot, no one will tell you that
this is Orthodox, but they'lljust kind of a hint that this is

(26:47):
a better way, you know,expository preaching. And I'm
like, Okay, well, I guesstopical preaching is of the
devil, you know, and just likerecognizing that, that, that
that is a cultural thing. Andthere's some people that enjoy
and are fed by that, you know,line by line, you know, but
Jesus preached on topics. Youknow, Jesus, you know, would

(27:10):
would bounce around fromScripture to Scripture to talk
about a theme called the kingdomof God. Right? And so if it's
good enough for Jesus, it's goodenough for us. Yeah.

So it's something about identity, I want
to know how our own personalidentity because you, you talked
about, a lot of times we like tofollow Jesus, like, say, Hey,
I'm good enough. I'm, I'm doingall the things. So God will love
me. So it's my, I'm just tryingto, to have my identity and what
I do, and now who God sees me asso as we're discipling others,

(27:47):
and in this discipleshiprelationship, how formative is
our identity? How to what is therole of identity within
discipleship?

Right? And so going back to Jesus, you know, a
question that I asked, we'rejust coming out of Holy Week,
right? Like,how does Jesus know that knowing
that this community that He hasprepared is going to basically
desert him? How does he washtheir feet? How does he serve
them? How does he use his dyingbreath on the cross, you don't

(28:17):
have a lot of breaths whenyou're suffocating the death
rights, crucifixion makes yourlungs collapse. And he's using
his dying breath, to pray forthe liberation of his
executioner to say, Father,forgive them to see about his
mother and his disciples likehe's, he's, and you think to
yourself, well, how can I followin these footsteps? This seems
too much. And one of my favoritescriptures, John 13. Jesus said,

(28:41):
Let me actually grab my Bible.
Jesus is washing the feet of thedisciples. And the in John's
narrative, Jesus says this, hesays, it says, Knowing where he
came from, right? He knew thatthe hour had come. And Jesus

(29:04):
knew that the Father had put allthings under his power, and that
he had come from God and he wasreturning to God. So he got it
from the meal, right, took offhis outer clothing, wraps a
towel around his waist and getsto gets to washing feet. And I
believe that Jesus knew who hewas. He knew his mission. He
knew where he came from. He knewwhere his authority came from.

(29:28):
And that enabled him to serve.
And I think in the same way, wehave to know that our calling,
our authority, our identity, itcomes from God. And knowing that
this is bigger than me, knowingthat this is not my plan,
knowing that my identity as aChrist follower, is part of you
know, God's cosmic plan to renewall things like we're part of

(29:52):
that cosmic renewalindividually, like so this is
much bigger than me, and knowingthat this doesn't end hinge on
Meet giving a new Christian theright answer to a question that
they have about Jesus. It justit just takes a lot of pressure
off. I know what I know who sentme, right? I know who called me.
And it surely wasn't me. And ithas nothing to do with my

(30:15):
denomination, it actually hasnothing to do even with my
faithfulness to the call, thiscall is so bigger than me. So I
know who I am, I know what Godhas called me to. I know that it
doesn't matter whether or not Ihave a title or not. It doesn't
matter whether I have a seminarydegree or not, it's just me
being faithful to follow. Followout of the calling, and the the

(30:37):
establishing of this call byJesus. That's

so good. So if we know who we are, we will know
who we have to know whose weare, which is yeah, we're, we're
gods. And then we're going toknow where we're going. What is
our purpose? How are we to live?
In the world? That's reallygood. That's fantastic. Yeah, I
think

it's like, you got to know the source of your
authority, like, you know, whohas called you. And that just
makes all the difference.
Because, you know, this isn'teasy. And when it gets hard,
right, when it gets hard this iswork in the Spirit, you know,
this is hard transformationwork. This is this is it's a
mystery to be quite honest, I,it can't be my grit, it can't be
my intellect. It can't be mycharisma, you know, and you

(31:24):
could be a real charismaticperson and get real far and this
and have a nice way with words.
And people think, oh, yeah, youknow, but that's exhausting. You
know, and as somebody that'sdone this for a little while,
that can get really exhausting.
And eventually it can lead toyou even resenting God, and
resenting the call and feelingbitter, right, because what
happens when you are disciplingsomeone, and nothing changes,

(31:47):
you know, I mentioned in thebook, you know, I'll never
forget having a conversationwith someone. And, you know,
they were dealing with an, youknow, anger issue, and it was
having a deleterious effect ontheir life. And I remember
saying, Alright, come on, let'spray. And they looked at me, and
they said, you've been prayingfor me for a year, and nothing
has changed. What's the point.

(32:09):
And so when you're met withthat, if if you don't remember
that this is bigger than you, ifyou don't remember that,
ultimately, you're not the HolySpirit, I'm not the Holy Spirit,
it's not my job to change thisperson. And that we are just
participating in what God isalready doing in their life. And

(32:30):
we're just called to just walkwith them. I say discipleship
can drive you out of the faith,either it's gonna drive you to
your knees, or at you know, it'slike, you're gonna let me go
join some other religion.

My wife and I lead a missions organization.
And we we have people that goout all over the world. And I
think there's been a bettertheme and missions for a while
where people are trying to tohelp Jesus save souls. But
we're, we're moving into aspace. And I think we've we've
been there for a little while.
And we're gonna see a littleoverlap, where justice issues
that are extremely important forpeople, and it's how does that

(33:04):
impact our life? And what doesit mean, to actually step into
hard, difficult issues in theworld? And make a difference?
How does my me following Jesusactually make a difference in
the world, and not just have a,a, I'm going to heaven when I

(33:26):
die. There is an embodied like,practical, this is what it means
to be Jesus, and to follow inHis justice. footsteps. What are
you seeing as you're, you'rehelping people follow Jesus?
What questions are they asking?
How do they want to see the thegospel, or the kingdom of God

(33:49):
embodied in everyday life?

Yeah, so at our church, I just finished teaching
through the book of Mark, with agroup, we just went through all
16 chapters, and, you know,asked for feedback. And one of
the feet, you know, bits offeedback that I got from a few
people, particularly people whowork in what I call, like,
helping, helping professions,social worker, teacher,

(34:15):
psychiatrist, was seeing theseeing that God actually cares
more about justice than we do.
Right. I think somewhere inPsalm Psalm 89, right.
Righteousness and justice arethe foundation of the throne of
God. And so what does that mean?
Well, if Jesus comes if heproclaims the kingdom, a huge
part of the kingdom is it's goodnews for poor people, like

(34:36):
that's pretty late. And that'sJesus first sermon, right? He's
quoting Isaiah 61. And he says,you know, the spirit has
anointed me to preach the GoodNews to the poor to set the
captives free, you know, toproclaim, you know, the year of
Jubilee or the year of Lordsfavor, I'm here to cancel debts.
And every and I tried to showthem and I didn't so it brings

(34:57):
me so much joy, because I don'thave to Add to the Scripture,
right? We just get to readthrough and see that everywhere
Jesus goes, poor people gethappy, poor people get fed.
Right? You know, I think of, youknow, the fish fry in the
wilderness, right? Jesus go. Andhe sends his disciples out to

(35:17):
preach and teach. And they're soexcited to come back and talk
about all the demons that theycast it out. And Jesus says,
Wait a minute, and some hungrypeople here. And they're like,
Well, you know, let them go andgo get something to eat them, I
guess that'd be a good idea thatthey go feed themselves. And
Jesus says, No, you feed them,you serve them. And to see that
Jesus doesn't ask them perform amiracle. He performs the

(35:40):
miracle. It says, I'm going toperform the miracle. But then
you're going to hand it out,you're going to think the Greek
word literally means you'regoing to serve, you are going to
pass out peridinium. I might bewrong. But I think it's parroted
in my you're going to distributethis fish and this bread to
these people. Becausediscipleship and following me in

(36:01):
just preaching, yes, y'all justwent and y'all just I sent y'all
out to buy to y'all just cast itout some demons, I'm sure you
feel great. But the people arehungry. And that's just as
important. And it's just it thatthat's just as much ministry as
preaching and teaching isfeeding. You know, and this is
its literal, you know, he'sliterally metaphor, you know,
literally feeding them. But Ithink the metaphor is trying to

(36:24):
help people to see that nobodycares that Jesus rose from the
dead. Right? If if their heartsand their souls, and their
bellies aren't being fed, Jesuswas into feeding people's
bellies, and making sure thatwhen you met him, Jesus, I would
say Jesus had a, he is alwayshaving a dinner party everywhere
Jesus went, he was alwayssitting at a table. And people

(36:47):
were always eating and drinkingand happy. And so Jesus is going
around making sure that people'ssouls aren't just being fed, but
that their bellies are and in,in Galilee, where there's
oppression, there'scolonization, you know, I find
it very interesting that, youknow, Jesus calls these
fishermen, and they leaveimmediately. And I think they

(37:08):
left immediately, because thefishing job wasn't so great. I
think they left immediately,because that was Caesar's lake.
And they probably didn't makemuch I believe that they were
sharecroppers of the sea, if youwant to really get into the
historical context. And Jesus islike, Hey, I got a new job for
you guys. And, you know, it'sgonna be a lot more rewarding

(37:29):
than, you know, fishing forsomeone else, and then paying
taxes and barely making aliving, right, so So these have
these poor people following him.
And they see him, you know, hegoes to Jericho. And you have
Zacchaeus, who was scheming andscamming, you know, and
Zacchaeus meets Jesus, and allof a sudden, you've got
reparations for your Jericho,good news, like Jesus literally

(37:51):
is good news to the poor. And soI can say a lot more. But I
think that's a great startingplace to show people that Jesus
comes and he identifies with thepoor. He's in solidarity with
the poor. Does this mean Jesusaids rich people? Absolutely
not. He has dinner with thekids. He's chatting it up with
Nicodemus, but he's callingpeople with wealth to him to

(38:12):
transform them so that theymight see the people on the
floor, I like to call them he'sconstantly reorienting the gaze
of his disciples, to the peoplewho are on the margins, right?
When the disciples go to thetemple. And he says, Stop
looking at the people with thebest seats in the synagogue,
right? With the long flowy robeswho were putting all the money

(38:36):
because that's what they want tobe. They want to be the rich
young ruler, right? When Jesustalks to that rich young ruler.
And Peter says, well, nowlisten, if you can't get in,
what hope is there for us? AndJesus said, I need you to fix
your gaze on that woman overthere, who's given her last?
Stop looking at the beautifulstones of the temple, stop
looking at the opulence. Look ather, see her see the children,

(38:59):
and because my kingdom is forthem, too. You know, and he's
constantly trying to fix there.
And so I think following Jesus,discipleship means that we our
gaze needs to be where Jesus'sgazes and I think that's a good
starting point, you know, forpeople to say just on your

(39:21):
commute to work, this is notspiritual at all. Look at people
you know, in a New York City youknow, maybe if you're in the
burbs, you're not looking tonobody, because you're in your
car. But in New York, we'reconstantly surrounded by people,
you know, you you're neveralone. And so you're constantly
surrounded by poverty. You'reconstantly surrounded by very,

(39:42):
very, very wealthy people andvery, very, very poor people.
Right in the same subway car,you'll have millionaires and
people begging for change. Andso who are you looking at? And
who are you loving? Withwhatever you have, right?
Everybody is not going to start,you know, some nonprofit org
integration. But what does itmean to be in solidarity with

(40:04):
the poor? I think it should costus something. I think that's
part of the cost ofdiscipleship, right? Come on.
The trick was a digit bagnascoWith the clock right now. Yeah,
that's part of the cost. I can'tyour cost is not going to be my
cost. But there's got to be acost. Because Because advocating
for the poor, blurring thelines, got Jesus in a bit of

(40:26):
trouble. You know, so cost himthe initial cause by some, yeah.

Whoever came to Jesus was transforms as people
encountered him, the rich peopleencountered him, there was
transformation that take placefor people that encountered him,
there was transformation thattake place. In our discipleship,
how can we help people encounterJesus? And not just good words
on the page?

Oh, that's good. That's good. Some of this
is gonna sound really boring.
Some of this happens. I mean,it's, it is what it is, I think,
I try to help people encounterJesus, through pointing out the
humanity of Jesus. I think, youknow, if you've spent any time
around Christians, if you spentany time around the church,

(41:13):
you've been told that Jesus isGod. And he is he makes claims
to divinity. But I try to pointpeople, to the humanity of
Jesus, to show them that Jesusdidn't just suffer for us. In
many instances, he suffered likeus, and that we actually have
more in common with Jesus thanwe think. And that helps with

(41:35):
the encounter, to see that Jesusfamily was a little crazy. You
know, Jesus, you you got adysfunctional family. Hey, so
the Jesus, Jesus, parents andbrothers are coming to him. And
they're calling him out. AndJesus said, Now listen, if
you're in this room, you're mymother, father and sister and
brother, they thought he waspossessed by demons. Right?

(41:56):
Jesus had some issues with hisfamily. So if you do, you're in
good company, with Jesus. Youknow, Jesus knows what it is to
be betrayed. Jesus knows what itis to cry. I always wonder why
did Jesus cry with Mary andMartha, if he knew he was going
to resurrect Lazarus, right,John, chapter 11, which is a
scripture that's been veryformative for how I see

(42:17):
discipleship, he's going toresurrect his friend from the
dead. He knows he's going to dothat. He says it quite a few
times, I'm going to do this sothat you guys might believe that
I am the resurrection in thelife. But he cries, he spent
some good time weeping andcrying. And I think right there,
we see the humanity of Jesusthat even though he was going to

(42:39):
be the resurrect door, he alsowas comforter, he was a mourner.
And he mourned the the, thesadness of death. Right, he
mourned, you know, because hisfriends were mourning. You know,
when I think about Jesus, evenon the way to the cross, I think
it's insane that he asks hisfriends to pray with him, like

(43:01):
What awful prayer partners, heknows they're going to fall
asleep. And he still says, I'mstruggling. Come pray with me.
And I think he does that for us.
I think there's a modeling of avulnerability. And so I think
when I think about encounteringJesus, the Gospels help us to

(43:21):
see ourselves and see how Jesusidentifies with us, so that we
could know that he knows what itis to walk in this broken world,
like Jesus, you know, knows whatit is to metaphorically walk in
the wilderness, he knows what itis to be thirsty, he knows what
it is to be betrayed, he knowswhat it is, you know, to be

(43:43):
misunderstood. He knows what itis to be tired. Jesus took naps.
Like there's, there's not, Imean, and this, you know,
getting, you know, very well,one of the before I started
doing discipleship ministry, ina local church, I worked in
campus ministry for eight yearsat Columbia University, and, you

(44:05):
know, unfortunately, working ata college context means that you
are in a context where sexualassault is very prevalent. One
of my colleagues even, you know,she she did some research and
showed us that one out of fourcollege students experiences
some sort of assault. So if Ihave a Bible study, and there's

(44:28):
12 young women in that Biblestudy, just by the virtue of the
math, at least, you know, threeof them have been assaulted, or
have assaulted someone else. Andso, what do you do with right?
I, what I what I what I usuallydo, and what's surprising to me
and people like will Gaffney andpeople like Christina Edmondson,

(44:50):
Dr. Kristina Adams and Dr. WeilGaffney have helped me to see is
that on the cross, Jesus isassaulted. You know, we don't we
don't really like to talk aboutthat, but the Bible says they
stripped him, They stripped himnaked, he knows what it is to be
snatched by violent people andhave his clothing torn off. He
knows what it is to behumiliated and exposed to the

(45:11):
elements. It's not everything.
But but from what I what I cansee, that has been a real point
of identification. You know,it's one thing to say that Jesus
knows what you're going through.
But when you're able to sit witha survivor, and say that, even
that Jesus knows what it is togo through that sort of thing.

(45:36):
And he still calls us to followhim. You know, he can
sympathize, he can empathizewith our weakness, but also, you
know, with with very real,wretched and awful assault that
people have gone through, heknows what it is to suffer in
that way. And I've seen, there'sbeen some solace there, to know

(45:58):
that, wow, he even identifieswith me, and that is

to have a God come and do that. And Willie Lee
expose himself to all of thatpain and that suffering, and
that he could identify with usin every way. It is a that's
just an absolute incredible.
It's like, it is a wonder. Imean, this movement to Jesus has
lasted over 2000 years, and it'sgoing strong, right? There's,

(46:24):
and a lot of it, I think, has todo with, he's not like any of
the gods that were there. Werethere he is. He's different.
He's not this unattainablesuperhero. He's somebody that
identifies with us in every way.
And that's incredible. That'spretty incredible. Yeah,

Doctor, what's her name, diet, Dr. Diana Butler
Bass, she says he's eminent andhe's imminent. You know, he's
transcendent, but he's also withus, you know, and that helps me
to see how to live you know, I'mnot the first person to say
this. But Jesus shows us what itmeans to be human. He shows us

(47:07):
how to love, he shows us how tobe obedient sons and daughters
of God, he shows us how todepend on the father. But he
also shows us how to love peoplein everyday practical ways. He
shows us, you know, what reallymatters in this world. He shows
us, you know, in a status quo,zero sum world, no, there's

(47:31):
abundance, you know, if weshare, there can be abundance,
there doesn't have to bescarcity. This doesn't have to
be, you know, as I gain youlose, no, we can all you know,
have our basic needs fulfilled,you know, and I think that is
super, just he shows us thatanother world is possible. You

(47:53):
know, I think he spends quite abit of time coaxing His
disciples to use theirimaginations, and to dream that
the status quo isn't how it hasto be. Now, it might call it
might cost you some things,right? Because some people like
the status quo, some people arevery fine with oppression, it
makes them a good living.
everybody's not going to behappy when you start shaking

(48:14):
tables. But actually, that's theabundant life. That's the
promise. You know, one

of the things I teach when, when it comes to
discipleship that my friends hadgone through, so I, of course,
steal it from someone else, likewe all steal books, good things
from other people. But, youknow, it talks about most of our
discipleship in the in the westand Western churches right now.
It's, it's usually classroombased. So about 90 95% are like

(48:44):
classroom based discipleship,this way, too, but let's fill in
the blanks do something. Andthen our apprenticeship, right
of bringing people along withus, is pretty miniscule. And the
experience, like embodiedexperience of discipleship is
pretty small. But he's big, butwe basically say we need to flip

(49:05):
that on its head and have theclassroom time, the smaller
time. And that experience andapprenticeship, a lot more like
we those are the things that weneed to get people to, to
participate in as aparticipatory work. Discipleship
is what how do we move fromclassroom to participation?

Man, that's a great question. And I have to I
can't This isn't me, Dr. MariaLou Wong and Dr. Mark Gornick.
The dean, I think now with a proI think she's the provost. But
basically, they are the heads ofcity Seminary of New York, and
that's where I was able to studysome time ago. And, and I tell

(49:49):
you, you know, when I went toseminary, I didn't know what to
expect. You know, there wereactually people who told me if
you go to seminary, it'll theycall it a cemetery, you know,
you'll lose your zeal becauseyou'll just be sitting in a
classroom, you know, learningdoctrine, and you will actually
be with people. And so I thankGod for city Seminary of New
York, because it when I say, ourthe city was our missiology

(50:11):
classroom, we literally walkedthe streets of New York, and I'm
from New York City, I like tosay, you know, there aren't too
many streets in New York Citythat I haven't walked down. But
But alas, they made me a liar.
Oh, we would go all over theBronx, and Queens, Staten
Island, Brooklyn. And we used todo this thing called pray and
break bread. And I have to say,it is one of the most formative

(50:34):
things that I've ever done, Istill do it, I still invite
people to do it. And so what wewould do is we would find a
neighborhood. And we would go toa neighborhood. And there would
be you know, someone whoactually was from that
neighborhood would come andbefore we opened our mouths to
pray, they would you know, talkto us about the neighborhood. In
a, they would say, This is whatthe neighborhood is like, and

(50:56):
I'll never forget one of myfriends, Peter. He's a pastor
here in New York City. He ledone in Chinatown. And so we're
in Chinatown. And we are hearingabout what it means to be a
Christian in Chinatown. Whatit's like in Chinatown, and
we're looking around to like,we're not just hearing Peter,
talk to us. We're looking andwe're seeing you have sagging
tenements in next to, you know,multimillion dollar

(51:19):
condominiums. And he's saying,as you can see, it's getting
harder and harder to be a lowerincome or working class person
here. Because literally, youknow, the gentrification is
pushing people out and raisingrents. And so people are having
to work more. And so now youhave, you know, immigrants, you
know, some undocumented, someundocumented working 1415 hour
days, you know, just to be ableto provide for their families.

(51:43):
And so how does that impact theteenagers that I work with at my
church? Well, that means mom anddaddy are home very much, you
know. And also, it means that,you know, kids are kind of their
kids, but they're grownups,because their parents don't
necessarily speak the language.
So they're the ones filling theprescriptions, they're the ones

(52:04):
filling out the tax documents,they're the ones that, you know,
no one's helping them with theirhomework. And so this is giving
us a sense of Wow, now, we'renot just coming into a community
to pray for a community ortheoretically thinking, how can
we change this community? Howcan we take it back to Jesus,
right, that's usually thelanguage you hear no, we're exit
sheeting the neighborhood by andlearning about the needs of the

(52:26):
community, from someone who'sactually in that community. So
that now when we begin to prayfor that community, our prayers
are informed by what they'reactually not what their felt
needs actually are. And so this,this, this practice, you know,
didn't end with us just learningnow. Now, knowing what you know,
now, let's walk, let's walk in,let's pray. And let's stop by

(52:49):
the basketball courts. And let'sstop in front of this after
school program and pray for thisafter school program, let's, you
know, walk past this tenementbuilding, let's pray for that
landlord, let's walk past thisplayground, let's pray over this
playground. And then, becauselisten, it all comes down to the
money. Remember, Jesus was goodnews to the poor, let's go to a
mom and pop restaurant in hiscommunity. And, and give them a

(53:13):
whole bunch of money and buy itbuy out the kitchen, right and
tangibly be a blessing to thiscommunity. And, you know, this
is, you know, years ago, butrunning a restaurant in New York
City isn't isn't easy. And sothat practice is something that
I keep with me. So one of thethings that I do with people
that I'm discipling and that Iparticipate in just even myself

(53:35):
is prayer walks, I find thatprayer walks are a great way to
be amongst the people, to prayfor the community, but also a
way to just, you know, be like,I felt like Jesus always was on
the go. He was always on his waysomewhere, you know, and they
would get into a conversationwith somebody at a well at a

(53:55):
synagogue at a tomb. Right? AndI'm on his way somewhere. So I
love talking to people about onthe way discipleship,
particularly if you you know,you're in a season of life where
you're very busy, and you don'thave time for that hour at
Panera, you know, on your waysomewhere, talk and walk with
people in New York City,obviously, that that's very easy

(54:16):
for me to walk and talk and praywith people but also for the
community. And you'll learn alot if you keep your eyes open.
Yeah,

so good. ulanda.
If you can go back to your 21year old self, what advice would
you give?

Oh my gosh, save up, open up a 401 K. Saved
save your money. Now. If I goback to my 21 year old self, I
would probably tell my 21 yearold self to that there's more
than one way to follow Jesus. Ithink I definitely got caught up
in the cult of Reformedevangelical theology and

(54:54):
thinking that, you know, the icewas called there over there and
there's a there's one one way Ato serve and one way to do
things and it's like, I think Iwould tell that 21 year old
woman, if God is who God saysGod is if God is infinite, and
if the love of God transcendsanything that we can ask for

(55:14):
think or imagine, there's got tobe more than one way to follow.
Good.

Anything you've been reading or watching lately,
you could recommend. Oh,

yes. Ah, I love to read I love to read. I'm
reading through a book calledholy imagination. by Judy
Fentress Williams, I find thisis a commentary of the whole
Bible. And it's phenomenal holdon my book dispel that, that's a
I'm reading through blackliturgies by Col. Arthur Riley,

(55:45):
which is really, really great.
I'm reading way too much. Myhusband he's like, if I see one
more Amazon box come in hishouse. You know, you get a whole
lot of gadgets to I'm alsoreading just for fun. A book
about the Knicks, I'm a hugeindex in

perfect I this book, discipleship is holy
collaborations. Fantastic. Howcan people go out and get your
book? How can people connectwith you? Yeah,

so you can get my book wherever books are sold,
Amazon InterVarsity. PressBarnes and Noble. It's all over.
There's an audio book as well asa physical book. And you can
actually if you go to theInterVarsity, press website, you
can download a sample chapter soyou can try before you buy. And
it's available for pre order,it'll be released May 14 2024.

(56:34):
And I am on social media.
Sometimes not so good for myspiritual life. But I'm on
there. I'm on all the socials,I'm on Instagram
ulanda.solomon.bk. I'm onTwitter under an alias because
Twitter is the devil. But youcan find me on Twitter as well.
I'm on, you know, Facebook. Andso you can connect with me. I
love to talk. I love to chat.

(56:55):
And so and also my websiteulanda Solomon dot site. Yeah.
So please reach out.

Perfect. You're allowed to thank you for this
conversation. It wasilluminating. It was good. As we
followed Jesus, what does itlook like to disciple others so
that we could encounter Jesusand we could actually be
transformed and move into adifferent direction that we
could be reordered by our loves.
And we could walk through thosethings and and it's not about
just what we know. But it isabout what we love and how we

(57:25):
love and how we love others thatfollowing Jesus, as a disciple
will actually be good news forthe poor and the march lies the
neglect of the people on themargins. And so thank you for
this. It was fantastic. You're

welcome. You're welcome, Joshua. Thank you for
inviting me. I appreciate it.

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Ep. 183 Yolanda Solomon - Effective Discipleship: Encountering Jesus, Loving Others Well

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 183 Yolanda Solomon - Effective Discipleship: Encountering Jesus, Loving Others Well