I love to enter the woods find a path and walk with Jesus. It’s a place of life and connection for me. And I know it is for Lore as well. Lore Wilbert spent time reflecting on the forest floor for her latest book The Understory. In this conversation, Lore and I talk about finding identity and community through change and loss.Laurie talks about learning from nature by observing decay and emergence on the forest floor, seeing death as part of life's cycle. In times of loss, Lore encourages us to feel emotions fully and trust that God is still at work, like nutrients from fallen trees nourishing new growth and that moving forward through change requires accepting the "new normal" and focusing on being present each day rather than clinging to the past. So join us as we find rootedness and resilience from the forest floor.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert is an award winning writer, thinker, learner, and author of the books, The Understory, A Curious Faith and Handle With Care. She has written for She Reads Truth, Christianity Today, and more, as well as her own site, lorewilbert.com. She has a Masters in Spiritual Formation and Leadership and loves to think and write about the intersection of human formation and the gritty stuff of earth. You can find Lore on Instagram @lorewilbert or on her kayak in the Adirondacks. She lives with her husband Nate in upstate New York and their pups, Harper and Rilke. She really has read all the books on her shelves.
Lore's Book:
The Understory
Lore's Recommendations:
I Cheerfully Refuse by Leif Enger
We Were the Lucky Ones
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (00:00):
I think so much of our disillusionment
(00:03):
with the world right now isbecause we're looking for other
people to define who we are todefine our places. I'm looking
to my president, or my politics,or my pastor, or my neighbor, or
a writer I admire or a personaid or person I love to sort of
(00:24):
push me into the corner of myidentity. And I think the
importance of being able to sayI'm here, and this is my place,
is it's it's almost like acourageous act.
Joshua Johnson (00:51):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Our
show is powered by you, thelistener. So if you want to
support the work that we do getearly access to episodes,
Episode guides, and more, go topatreon.com/shifting culture to
(01:15):
become a monthly patron, so thatwe can continue in this
important work. And don't forgetto hit the Follow button on your
favorite podcast app to benotified when new episodes come
out each week. And go leave arating and review. It's easy, it
only takes a second and it helpsus find new listeners to the
show. Just go to the Show pageon the app that you're using
right now and hit five stars.
Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
(01:37):
this podcast with your friends,your family, your network? Tell
them how much you enjoy it andlet them know that they should
be listening as well. If you'renew here, welcome. If you want
to dig deeper find us on socialmedia at shifting culture
podcast where I post video clipsand quotes and interact with all
of you. Previous guests on theshow have included Emily P.
Freeman, Sarah Bessie and JenPollock. Michel, you can go back
(01:58):
listen to those episodes andmore. But today's guest is
Laurie Ferguson Wilbert LaurieFerguson Wilbert is an award
winning writer, thinker, learnerand author of the books the
understory of curious faith andhandle with care she has written
for she reads truth,Christianity today and more as
well as her own site, Lauriewilbert.com. She has a master's
(02:19):
in spiritual formation andleadership and loves to think
and write about the intersectionof human formation and the
gritty stuff of Earth. You canfind Laurie on Instagram at
Laurie Wilbert, or on her kayakin the Adirondacks. She lives
with her husband Nate in upstateNew York and, and their pups
Harper and Roca. She really hasread all the books on her
(02:43):
shelves. You know, I love toenter the woods, find a path and
walk with Jesus. It is a placeof life and connection for me,
and I know it is for Laurie aswell. Laurie Wilbert spent time
reflecting on the forest floorfor her latest book the
understory. In thisconversation, Laurie and I
talked about finding identityand community through change and
(03:06):
loss. Laurie talks aboutlearning from nature by
observing the K and emergence onthe forest floor seen death as
part of life's cycle. In timesof loss Laurie encourages us to
feel emotions fully and trustthat God is still at work, like
nutrients from fallen trees,nourishing new growth, and that
moving forward through changerequires accepting the new
(03:30):
normal and focusing on beingpresent each day rather than
clinging to the past. So join usas we find rootedness and
resilience from the forestfloor. Here is my conversation
with Laurie Ferguson Wilbert.
Laurie, welcome to shiftingculture. Thanks for joining me.
We're excited to have you.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (03:50):
Thanks for having me, Josh. Josh.
Joshua.
Joshua Johnson (03:53):
Josh was great.
I answer to Josh. There's lotsof people call me Josh, but
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (03:59):
my I have a brother named Josh and I call
him Joshua. And yeah, I like it.
I prefer it.
Joshua Johnson (04:06):
All right.
That's good. Well, Joshuaactually has a meaning out there
that Josh really means anything.
So I like I like Josh's I mean,God saves that, yes, Salvation
belongs to the Lord. Yeah, andso that's been a big theme in my
life is my name. And who I amand and finding that salvation
(04:27):
and Lord, I want to know somecan you articulate your story of
faith with Jesus? It just a fewminutes and how it has grown and
shaped over time? Yeah,
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (04:42):
I mean, I feel like it's like, which story
should I tell? I tell this, thispart of the story or this part
or this part, but I thinkoverall raised in a pretty, I
would say, fundamentalistChristian home, Christian
patriarchy, that sort of thing.
I did not have a very clear Youridea about Jesus or grace, or
sin or any of those things, myidea of God was sort of like the
(05:06):
genie in the bottle, like, dogood things, rub it three times
and, and all the good thingswill pop out for you. And in my
late 20s, that just, you know,wasn't working at all, because
it's not meant to work. And so Ikind of just walked away from
all of it for a time, if not inmy body, at least in my mind, I
(05:29):
just I was employed by a churchat that point, I wasn't getting
the answers I wanted, I tend tobe a little bit of like a dog
with a bone when it comes toquestions. And so I kind of
just, I would call myself anagnostic for several years and
there, and yeah, just didn'tfelt like this. God couldn't
(05:52):
exist this sort of if God wasgood, God did what we wanted God
to do. And that didn't happen sothat that wasn't a good guy. And
ultimately, that sort of searchbecause I am like a dog with a
bone. And I wouldn't let go ofthat search. And God wouldn't
let go of me searching led me tomove from New York to Texas. And
(06:18):
I heard the gospel of Jesus soclearly articulated the gospel,
understanding my sin,understanding, brokenness,
understanding, redemption, andgrace and goodness, and the
faithfulness of God for allgenerations. It just sort of
radically changed my life. Fromthat point on, it's pretty
(06:38):
delved into sort of the Neoreformed world at that point.
And it kind of just had stars inmy eyes about so many things.
And we're just like soaking somany things up just learning so
many things. And I don't think Iwas really able to see how so
much of that time was just like,sort of building crutches around
(07:02):
myself, in some ways. Like, Ididn't trust myself, I didn't
trust the Holy Spirit inside ofme. I didn't, I felt it felt
risky to follow Jesus alone. Andso I sort of leaned on church
and leaned on institutions andleaned on theology and leaned in
all these various places. And Iwould say, in the last probably,
(07:25):
eight years, seven, eight years,as we just watched, so many
institutions, and so muchtheology, and just like, things
just fall apart. For me, Irealized, well, if I'm not
oriented around Jesus, if Jesusisn't the center of this, than
I'm, this is, I'm a lost cause.
(07:47):
And this is just going to becultural Christianity for me.
And I think that has been one ofthe best things that ever
happened to me. Because it'sJesus. Now. It's Jesus alone.
And he is the one I worship, andhe's the one I want to build my
life around and his own I wantto emulate. He's the one I want
to learn from. And I feel likethat's, I feel so like rooted
(08:13):
and grounded in God's love. In away that before it's still felt,
even though I didn't believe inthe sort of Genie God anymore. I
still felt like, well, I have tohave good theology, and I have
to be part of a good church, andI have to have a good path. I
have to have all these things,good politics or whatever. And
now I'm just like, No, it'slike, I can't at all, it's lost.
(08:34):
So that's where I am. Yeah.
Well,
Joshua Johnson (08:36):
I think, you know, the last, you know, 568
years, whatever I you know, Icall it the great unveiling, or
the unveiling, where we'reactually putting our hope in,
and our hope has been ininstitutions. It's been in those
crutches like you said, theseare the crutches that I had. And
so I was just reflecting onafter digging into your book,
(08:59):
the understory, which I love,and it is a balm to my soul.
Your writing is beautiful. It'sgorgeous. I just I just love,
love, love your book. You'rewelcome. But so this, this
unveiling, the reflection that Ihad, is actually getting to be
very empathetic for people thatare have fused anger and
(09:25):
authorial authoritarianism, andit's like they're trying to hold
onto something that they feel isbeing taken away, that they're
losing, and they don't know whatelse to hold on to. And I'm
starting to feel some I'mstarting to feel some empathy.
Yeah. Before I'm like, okay,just get over it and let's move
towards Jesus. Yeah. What is theyour relationship with that now,
(09:51):
the people and the culturearound you, as people are
holding on and seeing you Areyou saying, Okay, I've let go of
some of that. And I'm now justholding on to Jesus, and it
makes people a little bit angry.
How has that been in your life?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (10:14):
Like, I love that question so much
Joshua. Like, it's such aninsightful question. And I love
so much that you talked aboutcoming to have empathy for them,
because that has been. I mean,that really is so much the story
of the understory, for me, washaving grace for my own story
and learning to have grace forthe process and the stories of
(10:35):
others. So Mary Oliver has thispoem where she says, I want to
quote the whole thing, but it'slike,
Joshua Johnson (10:43):
you could read a Mary Oliver poem, I'm okay with
that. I don't
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (10:46):
have it in front of me. But basically,
the last line of it is thingstake the time they take. And I
think when I, when I look at myown story, I just think like,
when I, I have been 70 Differentkinds of blind, and I still am,
like, there's so much more forme to learn and grow and change.
And I think I had this beliefthat like, because, God, I
(11:09):
believed God was unchanging,therefore, I had to be
unchanging, I had to be like,you know, as the waves in the
sand was shifting around me, Ihad to somehow be immovable. And
I just don't, when I actuallyread the Bible, that's just,
that's not the God I see, I seea God who like, bends toward his
people. And I see a God who islike, sometimes changes his
(11:33):
mind, about things. And, and sowhen I, when I begin to see
that, and I understand a linemade in the image of God, that
means I should change and, andmorph and grow as well. And
therefore, man that just likeblows open the expanse of
empathy toward everyone aroundme, like I just have so much
(11:56):
empathy for the people who mightbe what I perceive to be behind
me in a specific area, or eventhe people who I might perceive
to be ahead of me, in anotherarea. It's been really
interesting in my marriage, myhusband, and I are like, not
aligned on some pretty bigthings. And it's just so easy to
(12:17):
have empathy for him, and forhim to receive his empathy for
me, and to learn and growtogether. And so I actually
think that, like, having mytrust in institutions, and the
church and people totallybroken, putting my trust in
Jesus has enabled me to have amore expansive life, and to
(12:38):
welcome in those other people,because I don't feel like
they're like a threat to my wayof life anymore. So why would I
not invite them in and have asmuch empathy as I can manage?
Now, that said, there are goingto be times where, you know,
just because God is love, Godalso has anger about injustice
(13:00):
and wrongdoing. And so it is, Ihave to learn to hold both
empathy for a perspective, whilealso not like softening against
injustice and things like that,like I can be rooted and
grounded and the love of Godwhile at the same time caring
about the things that I perceiveGod cares about.
Joshua Johnson (13:22):
Let's go into some of your story. From the
understory. Our start, likemoving from Dallas area into the
Adirondacks back to where a lotof the place that you grew up.
What was that process? Like asyou I want to actually want to
(13:43):
know, because all of this, theunderstory, of course, you're
talking about the forest floor.
So this is not Dallas area.
analogy, this is what youryou're seeing on your window the
Adirondacks. This is not whatyou're seeing out your window in
in Dallas, how how it has place,and the place that you were at
(14:05):
how has placed shifted changedyou and brought you to a
different place? What is what isthe the place do for you?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (14:15):
That's such an interesting question.
There's this beautiful line andin a Wendell Berry poem, to
think of a life of man where hetalks about being at peace and
in place. And I would say thathas been for as long as I have
known that has been a goal ofmine in my life, like I have
this sort of constant wonderlast constant sort of the salsa
for the sense of home and I'venever lived in a place longer
(14:37):
than four years in my life. Andso when I think about the word
home or I think about being atpeace and in place, it's it's a
sort of very hard thing for meto grasp. And so coming back
here, well, in some ways it wascoming home in other ways it was
(14:58):
it was really stripping away anyillusions I had, that a place
itself can be home. And so muchof the book is about the
recognition that I am here like,right where my feet are right
now is where I am. And whetherthat's in Dallas, or DC, or
Denver or here, other placesI've lived like, that is that
(15:22):
doesn't have to be home. It justmeans that's, that's my place
for that moment. And I thinkthat has been really
transformational for me as well.
Because I'm, when I think aboutit, I'm like, Oh, I'm here. And
God is here with me in thisplace. God is here with me. So
while yes, I thrive in a placelike the forest where there's,
(15:42):
you know, beautiful trees andsoft mossy carpet more than I
thrive in a place like Dallas,where it's a lot of concrete and
suburbs, that doesn't change thefact that like, the God is with
me in that place, and I am here.
And there's this, this, thisother beautiful line, I wish I
could remember who says it, butit's, I think I quoted at the
(16:03):
end of the book where it talksabout going from here, to here
to here, instead of from here tothere. And I really love that
picture of, we don't always haveto be moving from point A to
point B to point C to point.
Like, it's not, that's not whatlife is, like. That's not what
growth is like, it's more justlike an acknowledgement of where
I am right now. And looking towhere I will be tomorrow,
(16:28):
knowing that that's not whereI'll be for the rest of my life.
Joshua Johnson (16:33):
So what's the the importance of finding here,
wherever here is where you areat that present moment, are they
the, one of the beautiful thingsthat you write about in your
book, as, as the moment whereMoses goes up, he sees God, God
says, you know, to take off yourshoes, this is this is holy
(16:54):
ground, this is sacred, thisground is sacred, and this is
holy. And you you write a littlebit about afterwards that, you
know, we take our shoes off tomake it holy, every every place
that we are, is sacred ground,right. And I I like that image
of the foot on the ground, likefeeling your place, knowing that
(17:16):
you are here. What's theimportance of of feeling of
like, being present in thatplace?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (17:23):
I think so much of our disillusionment
with the world right now isbecause we're looking for other
people to define who we are, todefine our places. I'm looking
to my president, or my politics,or my pastor, or my neighbor, or
a writer I admire or a personaid or person I love to sort of
(17:47):
push me into the corner of myidentity. And I think the
importance of being able to sayI'm here, and this is my place,
is it's it's almost like acourageous act, to say, I'm, I'm
choosing to not absorb that wayof being or that way of
(18:08):
thinking, or I'm choosing to notbe pushed into the corner, by
the beliefs and habits andrhythms, and theology of other
people. I'm choosing to, I'mchoosing to acknowledge my
doubts, right where I amchoosing to acknowledge what I
love, right where I am choosingto acknowledge what I want, what
(18:32):
I don't want. There's thiswonderful book by Susan Howe.
It's called glittering images.
And have you I love
Joshua Johnson (18:39):
her. I've read it. I've read the book. I love
it. Yeah, it was assigned in mycollege English class, we didn't
get to it. I read it thatsummer. And I just fell in love
with it.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (18:48):
I met so few people who've read it. So I
love that you've read it. Man, Ijust I love it so much. And I
don't want to give too much awayto your listeners. But like it's
really about facing ourselves aswe are and, and not having any
illusions about who we are.
Because we can't actually healif we don't bring our whole our
(19:09):
whole self to the work ofhealing and formation. So I just
I love the way that she sort ofpaints a picture and tells a
story about that, because Ithink we can see ourselves in
that. If we're if we're willing.
We can all do with someacknowledging our glittering
(19:32):
images.
Joshua Johnson (19:33):
Yes, yes. And I think that's, I mean, that's a
beautiful thing that we're here.
We're in place where we'rerooted. Wherever we are, even if
our life is transient, as youknow, as you have lived in many
different places as an adult.
Your life is transient, but youcan be rooted in here and I
think as we continue to movethroughout our life, we need to
(19:54):
find that place and that placesfor me I mean that identity
place can't be somebody elsedefining identity as to be God
saying, You're a beloved child,you're with me, this is my
identity. And I think, I thinkthat was what the beautiful
thing about the early church forme was, was that their whole
(20:17):
identity was found in Jesus thatfor the first time, in history,
there was rich and poor, therewere, there were slaves, and
they were free. There were allsorts of people coming together,
kissing on the cheek hadn't beenwelcoming, and saying, Our
identity is together in Jesus.
And as not in all these externalthings, the world defines us as,
(20:40):
have you seen any community? Imean, we you get to this place
of looking for a community likethat, here now. Have you? Have
you started to see any sort ofcommunity now like that, where
we're finding our identity andhim in Jesus and not in these
external things? And what doesthat look like?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (21:05):
I'm gonna get real vulnerable for a minute
until you see, we've been herefor years this month, actually.
And we have not had a churchhome in four years, because
we've been unable to find that.
And I do think it exists. I'vehad tastes of it. I was in a
grad school program for severalyears. And I think I had a taste
(21:26):
of that, where, you know, we'recoming from all different spaces
of life. And yet we are unitedaround Jesus, and it was
beautiful. But it's temporary.
It was a grad schoolenvironment. And it was, I
think, you know, in some ways,in some ways, parasocial,
(21:47):
because we were coming from allsorts of places. We weren't
coming from a central locations.
I do think it it. I do think itexists. I do think also. So I do
think it exists. I also think asyou said, at the beginning of
this conversation, we're in agreat unveiling. And I think the
beauty of being someone who isliving through that experience,
(22:13):
as you are as well, is that wecan hold on to the hope of this
really beautiful thing, whilealso acknowledging like, men,
everybody, I mean, it's just thechurch is going through some
havoc right now. And I thinkthat Havoc is good. I think
it's, it's revealing somenecessary things. And I think
(22:35):
it's beautiful, and I have a lotof hope for future generations,
but not know, the answer. Theshort answer is no, I haven't
seen it the way that I. So I'mgonna say this, actually. So
I've ever really healthymarriage. That when we fight, we
have scrambles, where, you know,we're in a really sucky season
(23:00):
right now, of our lives, butwe've had like a generally
healthy marriage. And I thinklike, oftentimes, people say,
like, oh, home is where you cankind of like, be the worst
version of yourself. And Ialways like, held the belief
that like, home should be theplace where I am the best
version of myself, like, theperson with whom I live should
receive the best of me. Andthat's not always true, but
(23:21):
like, I want it to be true. Andso I think even if, if we can
make our homes, places wherelike, we are bearing the fruit
of the Spirit, where we are longsuffering, where we are
confessing like confessionalcommunity, I'm confessing to
you, I'm angry, I'm confessingto you. I'm sad, I'm confessing
to you, I've sinned. I thinkthat can be a really powerful
(23:41):
and beautiful place to begin. Iwish I saw it in more church
churches. But it's where I amright now. And I have to
acknowledge that I'm not seeingit where I am. But I have to
believe that it exists, eithersomewhere else today or
somewhere in the future.
Joshua Johnson (24:00):
Well, I don't think that things will change
unless you what you just said,as you're embodying it at home.
Yeah, there that is community. Imean, we're two or more gathered
that, too is a community. It's,it is a it's a marriage is
community, you are embodyingthat that's going to start to
have an effect on the widercommunity. It has to start
(24:23):
somewhere. And it should startwith us. Like yeah,
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (24:27):
I love that you say that. So we live in
we live right butted up againsta river like I'm looking at a
river right now. And it's in asolar storm enclave of
neighbors, none of them arebelievers. Totally. Eden's one
is like, raving liberal. Theother is, I mean, like, they had
a, they had a confederate flaghanging on their porch like,
(24:49):
like the opposite ends of thespectrum, and wouldn't talk to
each other for years so theywould have nothing to do with
each other. And we moved hereright in between them. And last
summer, we had a tree fall infront of our house, there was
this moment where I was sittingout on our front steps watching
(25:11):
the men come remove the tree,and our neighbor from the side
and our neighbor from the sideboth came and joined me on the
stairs, that would have neverhappened five years ago, ever,
not in a million years, it wouldhave never happened. I'm not
saying that was us. I am sayingthat I think that, that both of
those families know that there'ssomething. I mean, we have
(25:32):
pretty candid conversations withthem too. But they know that
okay, this is a safe, this issort of a neutral zone. Can Can,
we can lay down our arms for afew minutes in this place. And
and they can, they can, it's aplace of peace, and it's a place
of welcome. And we're not goingto shy away from those
conversations, like we will havethose conversations, that
(25:54):
confederate flag is no longerhanging on their porch. But it's
not a place of of combat. It'snot a place of it's on a war
zone.
Joshua Johnson (26:06):
Yeah. So as you're you've been looking out
your window, and then takingwalks and you've been walking
the forests and in the trees.
What did you start to, to learnas you started to look down and
started to reflect on on deathand decay and reemergence on the
forest floor? There aren't a lotof people that looked down, a
(26:27):
lot of people see what's aheadof them. So how did you start to
look at the floor? And what canwe learn from the forest floor?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (26:38):
I like that you said that a lot of
people look ahead of them. Yeah,it's true. We do we often do
that. I think it started for meand I started the book out with
a story or the tallest tree inNew York fell recently, and it's
not far from my house. And afriend of mine was the one to
find it when it first fell. Andso he and I hiked back to it a
couple years ago. And I was justreally struck by this, like,
(27:04):
Queen this like beautiful,beautiful tree that was now
laying on her side in this, thisold growth forest. And I went
home and I started to like, readeverything I could about her.
And one of the things that alocal forestry professors said,
was dead, yes, but I prefer tothink she's just not vertical
(27:27):
anymore. And that idea thatlike, even in her what we might
call death, and it was adramatic death, like, not a
gentle death, not a pretty one.
What we might call death wasactually just the beginning of a
new, no, not even the beginning,it was just part of the
(27:48):
lifecycle. It was, it is very,it is a natural disturbance, it
is necessary. Some scientistssay that a tree fall and natural
tree fall in a forest is one ofthe most necessary events for a
forest for the health of theforest. And in the 300 400 years
she's going to take todecompose. She's going to
(28:08):
provide nutrients and a rich,rich ground for new healthy
trees to grow. And I'm just I'mso struck by that. And once I
began to think about that, like,I just began to see death
everywhere. And instead ofbecome it being this, like very
(28:31):
sad thing, it became incrediblyhopeful thing. It actually
became me like looking ahead andbeing like, that's exciting.
That process is actually reallycool. And really exciting. And
that's why when you talk aboutlike the unveiling that we're
experiencing, I'm like, yeah,we're just not vertical anymore.
Like cool. Like, some reallycool stuff is about to happen.
(28:55):
We get to become some like fungiand like moss, like we get to
become the body upon which likesome really cool, absolutely
necessary things in a forestgrow. Like the most integral
things in a forest, the thingsthat make a forest, a forest are
not actually the trees, it'sactually what's happening on the
(29:18):
forest floor. Because itcouldn't be a healthy forest.
Without that stuff. It wouldjust be I mean, you've seen
those, like really unhealthypine plantations, it's like not
a healthy forest, because itdoesn't have those necessary. It
doesn't have that, that deathprocess and decay and
decomposition. So we need thatto we're not exempt from head
(29:40):
just because we loved this.
Joshua Johnson (29:44):
It feels like I mean, you've gone through a lot
and like in the middle of yourbook you're talking about hurts
and grief and loss and pain.
There's a lot of death right themiddle of your of your book is
there. And you know looking atthe Out the window. And there's
looks like there's deathunderneath all that snow. And he
can't see anything growing. Hecan't see any any life. If
(30:07):
people are there, if, becausethere's a lot of people there
right now there's hundreds ofpeople that are there and hurt
and grief and loss, whether itbe betrayal of the church,
whether it be the death of aloved one, broken relationships,
whatever it may be, what can yousay to them, as you've started
(30:29):
to learn from? What is happeningwhen there is death and decay?
And is there any hope coming forthe people that are in that
space right now?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (30:44):
I think the first thing I would say is
like, I'm, I'm really sorry,that you're going through this,
like it's nothing I can say isgoing to fix or take away or
make the pain go. Again, MaryOliver things take the time they
take, oh, the rest of that poemis things take the time may take
how many roads do St. Augustinetake before he became St.
(31:07):
Augustine? That's the rest ofthe poem. And I think that, to
me is like, yeah, there's someroads you're gonna have to
traverse, before you get to bewho you want to be. And, and
before you can see yourself asas you truly are, as you are
loved and seen and cared for byGod. And that's just going to
(31:30):
take time. I think I would alsosay, maybe, maybe some of us
need to look up, you know, butsome of us need to look down and
see where your feet are. AndrewPeterson has this beautiful song
just came out on the new portersgate album. I think it's Andrew
Peterson. And maybe Leslie can'tremember their last name. It's
(31:53):
called centering prayer, Ithink. And then the line of it
is just be where your feet are.
And so I would just say thatthat would be my encouragement
to these friends who are in thatspace is just be where your feet
are. If you're feeling anger,let it rip. You're feeling
grief, let it rip if you'refeeling just like God cares
(32:13):
about those feelings. And Godwants to minister to those
feelings like he wants tominister healing and hope and
goodness to those feelings. Andthen we can't receive that
goodness, if we won't letourselves feel it. So
Joshua Johnson (32:31):
that's good. How did you learn how to feel?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (32:34):
Oh, my goodness. That's a whole other
podcast, Joshua. I am not a bigfeeler, I am a very by nature. I
stuffed all my feelings down. Ipretend I think about my
feelings rather than feel myfeelings. And I use you ask how
did you learn to feel? Iactually asked God, I said, God,
(32:58):
would you help me cry? Would youhelp me feel anger? Would you
help me to not run away from mytears and run away from anger?
And the Lord has answered. And Ihave found like, I have found I
have to still remind myself attimes, and I feel like tears
start to well up. This is good.
Don't apologize for that. Feelthose tears. Say what you're
(33:21):
feeling. Don't say you're thinkyou're feeling this, just say
I'm feeling this. And, you know,going back to what I said about
community, and my relationshipwith my husband, I think that
that has been incrediblypowerful in our relationship for
us to be able to say, because wecan both kind of run away from
(33:42):
feeling it for us to both beable to say I'm angry, I'm
frustrated. I'm sad. I'mgrieving, whatever. And it's
only born good fruit. And myrelationships. That's
Joshua Johnson (33:56):
good. I mean, yeah, I don't want to name
names. I do do know, people thatlike tears cob. They're like, I
apologize, I'm sorry. I'll bebetter. And that it's okay. Just
be there. be sad, be cry, showyour emotion, feel your emotion.
And say, be honest, this iswhere I'm at. And it's okay to
(34:20):
be there. You're not brokenbecause of that. And I think
that's some times, especiallythinkers, writers, they think
that, Oh, if I feel my feelings,I'm broken. And I need to get
over it. And, and so, I mean,you you've gotten to a place of
(34:40):
like, okay, I can feel myfeelings. How can people start
to move past that and not thinkthat they're broken because
they're sad or angry at themoment.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (34:52):
I just kind of want people to just like
close their eyes and envisionthe tallest tree in New York
again. And that tall and tallesttree in New York falling in a
forest and the thunderous soundit made, it made several sticks
of dynamite. That was the soundit made when it fell.
Joshua Johnson (35:10):
So if no one saw that did make it sound, it did
make,
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (35:15):
oh, um, I think just imagine that for a
minute. Just imagine like, okay,if I'm gonna let myself feel I'm
gonna, like, make a lot ofsound, and I'm gonna fall. And
then just remember that forestryprofessors quote, again, maybe
it's just not vertical anymore.
So you're just as important andjust as essential and just as
alive. And just as whole, onyour side, as you are standing
(35:40):
up. And in some ways, I'm goingto argue that you are even more
whole and more essential, andmore like powerful to the
community of trees around you,by having fallen than you were
ever in your 400 years of life,standing and being noble among
(36:01):
the pines. And so let yourselffall, it's like, let yourself
trust that there's still goodhappening, even though you're
not vertical anymore. And I knowthat's incredible. It's so much
easier to say, than to, to do.
But I truly think, I truly thinkthat's the way that we become
(36:24):
fully formed, whole humans is tofall.
Joshua Johnson (36:29):
So as you fall, we're in this grief where things
are taking time. We're lettingit take time, what is the what
is the emergence look likecoming out of that, that death
season, and we're now emerginginto something new. And, you
know, even if you take thechurch, as the church for halls,
(36:52):
it crumbles the institution,there's going to be an emergence
of something new, and it's goingto be beautiful and different.
And but it is going to revolvearound Jesus. What does that
process look like? And what didyou find?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (37:07):
I'll say, this is a slow process. While I
was reading the book, I watchedthe process of decomposition,
sped up in a YouTube video. AndI was like, Wow, that's amazing.
It has, you know, the wholevideo was like, you know, a
minute and a half. And yet ithad taken like, two and a half
months to get to this, likeloamy, soil space. And I just
(37:30):
think like, we want the sped upversion, you know, we want the
vast version. That's just nothow things happen. This is not
how it happens in nature. Andthat's not how it we are part of
nature. And it's not how ithappens with us. And so the
emergence, I think, is going tolook, I think it's going to look
a lot less dramatic, maybe, thanwe would like for it to look, a
(37:54):
little saplings are not verydramatic. They're beautiful, but
they're not dramatic. They'renot towering pines in a forest.
And so I think we need to, ifI'm really honest, I think we
need to go where the death is.
I think that's where that'swhere emergence is going to
(38:15):
happen. So we need to go to thespaces where we perceive the
absence of life, and you know,that for some person could be
like leaving a megachurch andgoing to a mainline church, that
could mean leaving yourcomfortable suburban house and
moving to an urban place ormoving to Gaza, it could mean a
(38:38):
lot of different things for alot of different people. But I
think we need to, I think one ofthe reasons that we're in the
space where we are, is becausewe've chased after things that
look like life, just becausethey're loud, and attractive,
and seeker sensitive, and thosekinds of things. But I think the
real stuff, the real good stuffto come is going to happen where
(39:01):
we're seeing a lot of death.
That was a real cheerful answer.
Sorry. Thanks
Joshua Johnson (39:05):
for that triple answer. I'm just reflecting on
my own life. And I know that thethe places in my life where I've
had the most life is where I rantowards death. You know, my wife
and I lived in the Middle Eastwe were we work with Syrian
refugees for many years. And Imean, that's that trauma, death,
(39:27):
war coming out of it. And we sawso much life it was incredible.
But my my question is, in ifwe're running to death, how can
I not get my own sense of selfworth and self importance out of
the life that I think I'mbringing to death? Oh, that's
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (39:51):
so good.
I mean, that is really, that'sour human like, that's the human
paradox, right? You know, we'renot Jesus. We are not the
Christ. And I don't think that'sever going to be we're we are we
believe we are our own gods, weare looking around us for Gods
we are we want other people tosee us as gods. So the whole
(40:12):
work of being human in the worldis just being like saying, I am
not the case, I am not God, Ioriented my life around Jesus. I
am not the center of of life.
And so I guess my answer to thatis I have no idea. Like, I have
no idea what it's going to take,you should expect it to come,
(40:34):
there is going to be a crushingin your life, that leads you to
realize I am not the Christ. Ihate thinking that you would
experience some of the thingsthat I've experienced in my life
like that would break my heart.
And yet, like you're going toexperience far worse things
probably in some ways than I'veexperienced. And these are all
reminders that we are not thecenter of we are not the one we
(40:58):
worship. And I think you knowsomeone I think desert really
good job of talking about this.
And so I just want to point tohis work. And you I think you
may have entered interviewed himwas Brian zahnd. I just think
Brian does such a great job.
Just talking through what itlooks like to sort of like, turn
(41:18):
away from our own selves andturn toward Jesus. And I've
learned so much from him aroundthese, these these things. And
so I guess my encouragement toyour listeners should be, go
read Brian's ons work.
Joshua Johnson (41:33):
There you go. Go read Brian's on, listen to my
two interviews I've done withhim. I love Brian. And he lives
about 45 minutes away from fromme. But I have never met him in
person. I'm really over over thecomputer, as we've talked on
this podcast. But yeah, Brian'sfantastic to be able to orient
(41:58):
ourselves around Jesus and whatthat looks like, and moving
forward. So if you say topeople, how now when we were
seeing the unveiling, we'reseeing death and decay all
around us. We're going throughthis grief and loss, we're
starting to see some littlesaplings, we have a little bit
of emergence, what does likelong term then like resilience
(42:22):
look like to move move usforward in, in our lives.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (42:28):
So in 400 years tree, one of three is not
going to that was the tree thatfell is not going to be there
any like to the naked eye tree,one or three is not going to be
there anymore. But the nutrientsthat tree wanna three has left
behind is going to be there foreternity. Like, she has changed
the ecological layout of thatforest. And so no matter what
(42:55):
she is here, she is there. Andaspects of her are there. And so
I think I think I just lost whatyour question was, which is,
Joshua Johnson (43:07):
then moving towards resilience, long term
resilience, I
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (43:10):
think we need to change our idea of what
resilience is, I think we havethis idea of resilience that
it's like, pull yourself up byyour bootstraps, and like, go
back to what you used to be andtry and regain the sense of
strength that you used to haveor like, rebuild these
relationships that you used tohave? And I want to say, No, I
don't think it's any of thosethings. I think it's a new
(43:32):
thing. And I think it's anothernew thing, and another new
thing, and another new thing, awhole new cellular arrangement,
every single day. That is thatallows like future generations
to build upon us and the deathand decay that we might be
experiencing right now. And so,I guess I want to say and this
might not sound super hopeful,but I'm not sure that I'm not
(43:56):
sure that any of us are going tobe big trees in our future. I
think I think we're in an agewhen a lot of the big trees have
fallen. And some of some of ourdescendants might see some big
trees again, or might become bigtrees themselves. But I think
(44:17):
for us in 2024 resilience is isaccepting the unveiling, it is
saying this is the new normal,and I'm going to, I'm going to
be here in it. And I'm not goingto try and get back to yesterday
(44:38):
or try to rush towards some sortof future version of myself. I'm
just going to, I'm going to behere and what that's looked like
for my husband and I in a timewhere we just haven't had a
church and good lord we've triedhas just been like not letting
go of the grief of that. Notjust sort of resigning ourselves
to well, this is just where weare Are and, and spoiler alert,
(45:06):
moving, like, we're gonna bemoving, we don't know where we
don't know when but we'reputting our house on the market
at the end of the month becausewe deeply need a community of
people around us. But in themeantime, it has been saying,
this is where we are. And we cantrust that God is at work in
this place. And that isemergence. That is movement.
(45:29):
That is, that is a little bit oflooking up from, from sort of
the destruction that we'reseeing grief that we're seeing
around us. So
Joshua Johnson (45:40):
beautiful. And good. Lord, if you could speak
to your readers and the peoplethat are going to read your
book, which I hope everybodydoes, because it is beautiful.
What do you hope people will getfrom the understory.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (45:55):
Think permission to I was gonna say
permission to just be where theyare. And maybe that's the most
important thing, permission tobe who they are. Andy Crouch has
this beautiful statement wherehe says to flourish is to be
magnificently ourselves. And Ithink my hope, in this book
whose message is so much aboutbeing here is that people would
(46:18):
just be able to be themselves,whether that's their grieving
selves, their Republican selves,their reformed selves, or
Methodist selves, their singlemother selves, their gay selves,
like I just, I want people to bewho they are. And to be able to
(46:43):
receive the love of God for thatspace in that place, and to
trust that God is at work intheir lives.
Joshua Johnson (46:52):
Moving forward.
That's great. Yeah, I've just acouple of questions I'd like to
ask at the end. One is if you goback to your 21 year old self,
what advice would you get? Oh,
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (47:04):
I literally just yesterday on
Instagram said letter to myformer self. So you just read
it? Yeah, I did. Trust your gutgirl. Trust your gut. Emily
Freeman has this quote thatsays, small red flags rarely
become smaller, they mostlybecome bigger. And I've just
(47:26):
seen that to be true in my life.
And I just wish 99% of the timewhen I looked around me for what
to do. I just wish I would havejust like, been still for a
minute and checked in with mygut. Because there have been
very few times where my gut hashas led me, led me wrong. And
I've come to think, as someonewho is oriented around Jesus,
(47:46):
now I've come to think of mygut, my intuition as the voice
of the Holy Spirit within me. Sotrust your gut girl. So
Joshua Johnson (47:57):
good. Anything you've been reading watching
lately could recommend?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (48:01):
Oh, we're reading.
Joshua Johnson (48:05):
You don't read much to you.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (48:06):
I read a ton and I read, probably. Gosh,
what have I read recently? I'mlike, my mind is drawing a blank
because I'm probably reading somuch. I just Oh, I know what I'm
reading. I'm reading. Leifangers. Currently, I'm reading
his book, I cheerfully refuse.
And I love leaf anger. I thinkhe's the best novelists of our
(48:29):
century. And so this book is notdoing doing him wrong. I
cheerfully refuse. I'm also myhusband and I finished. We were
the lucky ones. It's a, a worldwar two mini series on Hulu. We
finished that this week. And Ithought it was really well done.
(48:52):
I don't think I'd seen aminiseries from that perspective
of World War Two. And it's it'sa dark story, and I think it
should be a dark story should bethe story that makes us think
about the choices that our worldmakes when it comes to image
bearers. You know, we also justwatch I don't know if you've
(49:16):
seen little drummer girl, whichis based off of John lecarre
novel, it's a mini series and Ireally love it. It's also has to
do with Israel, and Israelis,but it shows the Palestinian
view as well. And I felt we'vewatched it probably four times.
We love it so much. It's such agreat miniseries. So well done.
(49:38):
But it was really good for us towatch it. I think recently just
to remind ourselves of howcomplex this is, and yet how
beautiful humans are. Allhumans. Yep, that's
Joshua Johnson (49:58):
true. Yeah. All humans all humans deserve to
flourish. They deserve aflourishing life, then that's
good. Laurie, if you could say,Where would you like to connect
people to where? How could theyconnect with you? Where do you
like to point people to peoplego get your book.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (50:16):
They can get my book. I don't know when
this release is, but they canget my book anywhere books are
sold. They can connect with me,I mostly hang out on Laurie
wilbert.com lorewylbrt.com. AndInstagram, at Lori Wilbert.
That's really the only socialmedia I'm hanging out on these
(50:38):
days.
Joshua Johnson (50:39):
Excellent. Well, go. Yeah, go there, go to Laurie
wilbert.com. Sign up for Lauriesubstack. And get more of her
writing because your writing isawesome and beautiful. No matter
what, whether it be Chuck's oryour emails and your substack
it's, it's great. So you wouldyou would not do wrong to to
read Laurie's words becausethey're beautiful. So do that.
(51:03):
So Laurie, thank you for thisconversation. Thank you that you
were able to actually walk intothe unveiling with me that you
should say that there is deathand decay there and that you
were able to learn from theforest floor as you've been
walking those those things inthat even the the fall of the
great trees, which are a lot ofour institutions, and churches,
(51:28):
the will actually bring aboutsome new saplings new growth,
the nutrients for the forestfloor and we can't have really
any good growth unless we havedeath and decay and some to move
through it as well. So thankyou. I really really enjoyed our
conversation. Thank
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (51:47):
you.
Thanks, Joshua.
I think so much of our disillusionment
(00:03):
with the world right now isbecause we're looking for other
people to define who we are todefine our places. I'm looking
to my president, or my politics,or my pastor, or my neighbor, or
a writer I admire or a personaid or person I love to sort of
(00:24):
push me into the corner of myidentity. And I think the
importance of being able to sayI'm here, and this is my place,
is it's it's almost like acourageous act.
Joshua Johnson (00:51):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Our
show is powered by you, thelistener. So if you want to
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Episode guides, and more, go topatreon.com/shifting culture to
(01:15):
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Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
(01:37):
this podcast with your friends,your family, your network? Tell
them how much you enjoy it andlet them know that they should
be listening as well. If you'renew here, welcome. If you want
to dig deeper find us on socialmedia at shifting culture
podcast where I post video clipsand quotes and interact with all
of you. Previous guests on theshow have included Emily P.
Freeman, Sarah Bessie and JenPollock. Michel, you can go back
(01:58):
listen to those episodes andmore. But today's guest is
Laurie Ferguson Wilbert LaurieFerguson Wilbert is an award
winning writer, thinker, learnerand author of the books the
understory of curious faith andhandle with care she has written
for she reads truth,Christianity today and more as
well as her own site, Lauriewilbert.com. She has a master's
(02:19):
in spiritual formation andleadership and loves to think
and write about the intersectionof human formation and the
gritty stuff of Earth. You canfind Laurie on Instagram at
Laurie Wilbert, or on her kayakin the Adirondacks. She lives
with her husband Nate in upstateNew York and, and their pups
Harper and Roca. She really hasread all the books on her
(02:43):
shelves. You know, I love toenter the woods, find a path and
walk with Jesus. It is a placeof life and connection for me,
and I know it is for Laurie aswell. Laurie Wilbert spent time
reflecting on the forest floorfor her latest book the
understory. In thisconversation, Laurie and I
talked about finding identityand community through change and
(03:06):
loss. Laurie talks aboutlearning from nature by
observing the K and emergence onthe forest floor seen death as
part of life's cycle. In timesof loss Laurie encourages us to
feel emotions fully and trustthat God is still at work, like
nutrients from fallen trees,nourishing new growth, and that
moving forward through changerequires accepting the new
(03:30):
normal and focusing on beingpresent each day rather than
clinging to the past. So join usas we find rootedness and
resilience from the forestfloor. Here is my conversation
with Laurie Ferguson Wilbert.
Laurie, welcome to shiftingculture. Thanks for joining me.
We're excited to have you.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (03:50):
Thanks for having me, Josh. Josh.
Joshua.
Joshua Johnson (03:53):
Josh was great.
I answer to Josh. There's lotsof people call me Josh, but
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (03:59):
my I have a brother named Josh and I call
him Joshua. And yeah, I like it.
I prefer it.
Joshua Johnson (04:06):
All right.
That's good. Well, Joshuaactually has a meaning out there
that Josh really means anything.
So I like I like Josh's I mean,God saves that, yes, Salvation
belongs to the Lord. Yeah, andso that's been a big theme in my
life is my name. And who I amand and finding that salvation
(04:27):
and Lord, I want to know somecan you articulate your story of
faith with Jesus? It just a fewminutes and how it has grown and
shaped over time? Yeah,
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (04:42):
I mean, I feel like it's like, which story
should I tell? I tell this, thispart of the story or this part
or this part, but I thinkoverall raised in a pretty, I
would say, fundamentalistChristian home, Christian
patriarchy, that sort of thing.
I did not have a very clear Youridea about Jesus or grace, or
sin or any of those things, myidea of God was sort of like the
(05:06):
genie in the bottle, like, dogood things, rub it three times
and, and all the good thingswill pop out for you. And in my
late 20s, that just, you know,wasn't working at all, because
it's not meant to work. And so Ikind of just walked away from
all of it for a time, if not inmy body, at least in my mind, I
(05:29):
just I was employed by a churchat that point, I wasn't getting
the answers I wanted, I tend tobe a little bit of like a dog
with a bone when it comes toquestions. And so I kind of
just, I would call myself anagnostic for several years and
there, and yeah, just didn'tfelt like this. God couldn't
(05:52):
exist this sort of if God wasgood, God did what we wanted God
to do. And that didn't happen sothat that wasn't a good guy. And
ultimately, that sort of searchbecause I am like a dog with a
bone. And I wouldn't let go ofthat search. And God wouldn't
let go of me searching led me tomove from New York to Texas. And
(06:18):
I heard the gospel of Jesus soclearly articulated the gospel,
understanding my sin,understanding, brokenness,
understanding, redemption, andgrace and goodness, and the
faithfulness of God for allgenerations. It just sort of
radically changed my life. Fromthat point on, it's pretty
(06:38):
delved into sort of the Neoreformed world at that point.
And it kind of just had stars inmy eyes about so many things.
And we're just like soaking somany things up just learning so
many things. And I don't think Iwas really able to see how so
much of that time was just like,sort of building crutches around
(07:02):
myself, in some ways. Like, Ididn't trust myself, I didn't
trust the Holy Spirit inside ofme. I didn't, I felt it felt
risky to follow Jesus alone. Andso I sort of leaned on church
and leaned on institutions andleaned on theology and leaned in
all these various places. And Iwould say, in the last probably,
(07:25):
eight years, seven, eight years,as we just watched, so many
institutions, and so muchtheology, and just like, things
just fall apart. For me, Irealized, well, if I'm not
oriented around Jesus, if Jesusisn't the center of this, than
I'm, this is, I'm a lost cause.
(07:47):
And this is just going to becultural Christianity for me.
And I think that has been one ofthe best things that ever
happened to me. Because it'sJesus. Now. It's Jesus alone.
And he is the one I worship, andhe's the one I want to build my
life around and his own I wantto emulate. He's the one I want
to learn from. And I feel likethat's, I feel so like rooted
(08:13):
and grounded in God's love. In away that before it's still felt,
even though I didn't believe inthe sort of Genie God anymore. I
still felt like, well, I have tohave good theology, and I have
to be part of a good church, andI have to have a good path. I
have to have all these things,good politics or whatever. And
now I'm just like, No, it'slike, I can't at all, it's lost.
(08:34):
So that's where I am. Yeah.
Well,
Joshua Johnson (08:36):
I think, you know, the last, you know, 568
years, whatever I you know, Icall it the great unveiling, or
the unveiling, where we'reactually putting our hope in,
and our hope has been ininstitutions. It's been in those
crutches like you said, theseare the crutches that I had. And
so I was just reflecting onafter digging into your book,
(08:59):
the understory, which I love,and it is a balm to my soul.
Your writing is beautiful. It'sgorgeous. I just I just love,
love, love your book. You'rewelcome. But so this, this
unveiling, the reflection that Ihad, is actually getting to be
very empathetic for people thatare have fused anger and
(09:25):
authorial authoritarianism, andit's like they're trying to hold
onto something that they feel isbeing taken away, that they're
losing, and they don't know whatelse to hold on to. And I'm
starting to feel some I'mstarting to feel some empathy.
Yeah. Before I'm like, okay,just get over it and let's move
towards Jesus. Yeah. What is theyour relationship with that now,
(09:51):
the people and the culturearound you, as people are
holding on and seeing you Areyou saying, Okay, I've let go of
some of that. And I'm now justholding on to Jesus, and it
makes people a little bit angry.
How has that been in your life?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (10:14):
Like, I love that question so much
Joshua. Like, it's such aninsightful question. And I love
so much that you talked aboutcoming to have empathy for them,
because that has been. I mean,that really is so much the story
of the understory, for me, washaving grace for my own story
and learning to have grace forthe process and the stories of
(10:35):
others. So Mary Oliver has thispoem where she says, I want to
quote the whole thing, but it'slike,
Joshua Johnson (10:43):
you could read a Mary Oliver poem, I'm okay with
that. I don't
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (10:46):
have it in front of me. But basically,
the last line of it is thingstake the time they take. And I
think when I, when I look at myown story, I just think like,
when I, I have been 70 Differentkinds of blind, and I still am,
like, there's so much more forme to learn and grow and change.
And I think I had this beliefthat like, because, God, I
(11:09):
believed God was unchanging,therefore, I had to be
unchanging, I had to be like,you know, as the waves in the
sand was shifting around me, Ihad to somehow be immovable. And
I just don't, when I actuallyread the Bible, that's just,
that's not the God I see, I seea God who like, bends toward his
people. And I see a God who islike, sometimes changes his
(11:33):
mind, about things. And, and sowhen I, when I begin to see
that, and I understand a linemade in the image of God, that
means I should change and, andmorph and grow as well. And
therefore, man that just likeblows open the expanse of
empathy toward everyone aroundme, like I just have so much
(11:56):
empathy for the people who mightbe what I perceive to be behind
me in a specific area, or eventhe people who I might perceive
to be ahead of me, in anotherarea. It's been really
interesting in my marriage, myhusband, and I are like, not
aligned on some pretty bigthings. And it's just so easy to
(12:17):
have empathy for him, and forhim to receive his empathy for
me, and to learn and growtogether. And so I actually
think that, like, having mytrust in institutions, and the
church and people totallybroken, putting my trust in
Jesus has enabled me to have amore expansive life, and to
(12:38):
welcome in those other people,because I don't feel like
they're like a threat to my wayof life anymore. So why would I
not invite them in and have asmuch empathy as I can manage?
Now, that said, there are goingto be times where, you know,
just because God is love, Godalso has anger about injustice
(13:00):
and wrongdoing. And so it is, Ihave to learn to hold both
empathy for a perspective, whilealso not like softening against
injustice and things like that,like I can be rooted and
grounded and the love of Godwhile at the same time caring
about the things that I perceiveGod cares about.
Joshua Johnson (13:22):
Let's go into some of your story. From the
understory. Our start, likemoving from Dallas area into the
Adirondacks back to where a lotof the place that you grew up.
What was that process? Like asyou I want to actually want to
(13:43):
know, because all of this, theunderstory, of course, you're
talking about the forest floor.
So this is not Dallas area.
analogy, this is what youryou're seeing on your window the
Adirondacks. This is not whatyou're seeing out your window in
in Dallas, how how it has place,and the place that you were at
(14:05):
how has placed shifted changedyou and brought you to a
different place? What is what isthe the place do for you?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (14:15):
That's such an interesting question.
There's this beautiful line andin a Wendell Berry poem, to
think of a life of man where hetalks about being at peace and
in place. And I would say thathas been for as long as I have
known that has been a goal ofmine in my life, like I have
this sort of constant wonderlast constant sort of the salsa
for the sense of home and I'venever lived in a place longer
(14:37):
than four years in my life. Andso when I think about the word
home or I think about being atpeace and in place, it's it's a
sort of very hard thing for meto grasp. And so coming back
here, well, in some ways it wascoming home in other ways it was
(14:58):
it was really stripping away anyillusions I had, that a place
itself can be home. And so muchof the book is about the
recognition that I am here like,right where my feet are right
now is where I am. And whetherthat's in Dallas, or DC, or
Denver or here, other placesI've lived like, that is that
(15:22):
doesn't have to be home. It justmeans that's, that's my place
for that moment. And I thinkthat has been really
transformational for me as well.
Because I'm, when I think aboutit, I'm like, Oh, I'm here. And
God is here with me in thisplace. God is here with me. So
while yes, I thrive in a placelike the forest where there's,
(15:42):
you know, beautiful trees andsoft mossy carpet more than I
thrive in a place like Dallas,where it's a lot of concrete and
suburbs, that doesn't change thefact that like, the God is with
me in that place, and I am here.
And there's this, this, thisother beautiful line, I wish I
could remember who says it, butit's, I think I quoted at the
(16:03):
end of the book where it talksabout going from here, to here
to here, instead of from here tothere. And I really love that
picture of, we don't always haveto be moving from point A to
point B to point C to point.
Like, it's not, that's not whatlife is, like. That's not what
growth is like, it's more justlike an acknowledgement of where
I am right now. And looking towhere I will be tomorrow,
(16:28):
knowing that that's not whereI'll be for the rest of my life.
Joshua Johnson (16:33):
So what's the the importance of finding here,
wherever here is where you areat that present moment, are they
the, one of the beautiful thingsthat you write about in your
book, as, as the moment whereMoses goes up, he sees God, God
says, you know, to take off yourshoes, this is this is holy
(16:54):
ground, this is sacred, thisground is sacred, and this is
holy. And you you write a littlebit about afterwards that, you
know, we take our shoes off tomake it holy, every every place
that we are, is sacred ground,right. And I I like that image
of the foot on the ground, likefeeling your place, knowing that
(17:16):
you are here. What's theimportance of of feeling of
like, being present in thatplace?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (17:23):
I think so much of our disillusionment
with the world right now isbecause we're looking for other
people to define who we are, todefine our places. I'm looking
to my president, or my politics,or my pastor, or my neighbor, or
a writer I admire or a personaid or person I love to sort of
(17:47):
push me into the corner of myidentity. And I think the
importance of being able to sayI'm here, and this is my place,
is it's it's almost like acourageous act, to say, I'm, I'm
choosing to not absorb that wayof being or that way of
(18:08):
thinking, or I'm choosing to notbe pushed into the corner, by
the beliefs and habits andrhythms, and theology of other
people. I'm choosing to, I'mchoosing to acknowledge my
doubts, right where I amchoosing to acknowledge what I
love, right where I am choosingto acknowledge what I want, what
(18:32):
I don't want. There's thiswonderful book by Susan Howe.
It's called glittering images.
And have you I love
Joshua Johnson (18:39):
her. I've read it. I've read the book. I love
it. Yeah, it was assigned in mycollege English class, we didn't
get to it. I read it thatsummer. And I just fell in love
with it.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (18:48):
I met so few people who've read it. So I
love that you've read it. Man, Ijust I love it so much. And I
don't want to give too much awayto your listeners. But like it's
really about facing ourselves aswe are and, and not having any
illusions about who we are.
Because we can't actually healif we don't bring our whole our
(19:09):
whole self to the work ofhealing and formation. So I just
I love the way that she sort ofpaints a picture and tells a
story about that, because Ithink we can see ourselves in
that. If we're if we're willing.
We can all do with someacknowledging our glittering
(19:32):
images.
Joshua Johnson (19:33):
Yes, yes. And I think that's, I mean, that's a
beautiful thing that we're here.
We're in place where we'rerooted. Wherever we are, even if
our life is transient, as youknow, as you have lived in many
different places as an adult.
Your life is transient, but youcan be rooted in here and I
think as we continue to movethroughout our life, we need to
(19:54):
find that place and that placesfor me I mean that identity
place can't be somebody elsedefining identity as to be God
saying, You're a beloved child,you're with me, this is my
identity. And I think, I thinkthat was what the beautiful
thing about the early church forme was, was that their whole
(20:17):
identity was found in Jesus thatfor the first time, in history,
there was rich and poor, therewere, there were slaves, and
they were free. There were allsorts of people coming together,
kissing on the cheek hadn't beenwelcoming, and saying, Our
identity is together in Jesus.
And as not in all these externalthings, the world defines us as,
(20:40):
have you seen any community? Imean, we you get to this place
of looking for a community likethat, here now. Have you? Have
you started to see any sort ofcommunity now like that, where
we're finding our identity andhim in Jesus and not in these
external things? And what doesthat look like?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (21:05):
I'm gonna get real vulnerable for a minute
until you see, we've been herefor years this month, actually.
And we have not had a churchhome in four years, because
we've been unable to find that.
And I do think it exists. I'vehad tastes of it. I was in a
grad school program for severalyears. And I think I had a taste
(21:26):
of that, where, you know, we'recoming from all different spaces
of life. And yet we are unitedaround Jesus, and it was
beautiful. But it's temporary.
It was a grad schoolenvironment. And it was, I
think, you know, in some ways,in some ways, parasocial,
(21:47):
because we were coming from allsorts of places. We weren't
coming from a central locations.
I do think it it. I do think itexists. I do think also. So I do
think it exists. I also think asyou said, at the beginning of
this conversation, we're in agreat unveiling. And I think the
beauty of being someone who isliving through that experience,
(22:13):
as you are as well, is that wecan hold on to the hope of this
really beautiful thing, whilealso acknowledging like, men,
everybody, I mean, it's just thechurch is going through some
havoc right now. And I thinkthat Havoc is good. I think
it's, it's revealing somenecessary things. And I think
(22:35):
it's beautiful, and I have a lotof hope for future generations,
but not know, the answer. Theshort answer is no, I haven't
seen it the way that I. So I'mgonna say this, actually. So
I've ever really healthymarriage. That when we fight, we
have scrambles, where, you know,we're in a really sucky season
(23:00):
right now, of our lives, butwe've had like a generally
healthy marriage. And I thinklike, oftentimes, people say,
like, oh, home is where you cankind of like, be the worst
version of yourself. And Ialways like, held the belief
that like, home should be theplace where I am the best
version of myself, like, theperson with whom I live should
receive the best of me. Andthat's not always true, but
(23:21):
like, I want it to be true. Andso I think even if, if we can
make our homes, places wherelike, we are bearing the fruit
of the Spirit, where we are longsuffering, where we are
confessing like confessionalcommunity, I'm confessing to
you, I'm angry, I'm confessingto you. I'm sad, I'm confessing
to you, I've sinned. I thinkthat can be a really powerful
(23:41):
and beautiful place to begin. Iwish I saw it in more church
churches. But it's where I amright now. And I have to
acknowledge that I'm not seeingit where I am. But I have to
believe that it exists, eithersomewhere else today or
somewhere in the future.
Joshua Johnson (24:00):
Well, I don't think that things will change
unless you what you just said,as you're embodying it at home.
Yeah, there that is community. Imean, we're two or more gathered
that, too is a community. It's,it is a it's a marriage is
community, you are embodyingthat that's going to start to
have an effect on the widercommunity. It has to start
(24:23):
somewhere. And it should startwith us. Like yeah,
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (24:27):
I love that you say that. So we live in
we live right butted up againsta river like I'm looking at a
river right now. And it's in asolar storm enclave of
neighbors, none of them arebelievers. Totally. Eden's one
is like, raving liberal. Theother is, I mean, like, they had
a, they had a confederate flaghanging on their porch like,
(24:49):
like the opposite ends of thespectrum, and wouldn't talk to
each other for years so theywould have nothing to do with
each other. And we moved hereright in between them. And last
summer, we had a tree fall infront of our house, there was
this moment where I was sittingout on our front steps watching
(25:11):
the men come remove the tree,and our neighbor from the side
and our neighbor from the sideboth came and joined me on the
stairs, that would have neverhappened five years ago, ever,
not in a million years, it wouldhave never happened. I'm not
saying that was us. I am sayingthat I think that, that both of
those families know that there'ssomething. I mean, we have
(25:32):
pretty candid conversations withthem too. But they know that
okay, this is a safe, this issort of a neutral zone. Can Can,
we can lay down our arms for afew minutes in this place. And
and they can, they can, it's aplace of peace, and it's a place
of welcome. And we're not goingto shy away from those
conversations, like we will havethose conversations, that
(25:54):
confederate flag is no longerhanging on their porch. But it's
not a place of of combat. It'snot a place of it's on a war
zone.
Joshua Johnson (26:06):
Yeah. So as you're you've been looking out
your window, and then takingwalks and you've been walking
the forests and in the trees.
What did you start to, to learnas you started to look down and
started to reflect on on deathand decay and reemergence on the
forest floor? There aren't a lotof people that looked down, a
(26:27):
lot of people see what's aheadof them. So how did you start to
look at the floor? And what canwe learn from the forest floor?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (26:38):
I like that you said that a lot of
people look ahead of them. Yeah,it's true. We do we often do
that. I think it started for meand I started the book out with
a story or the tallest tree inNew York fell recently, and it's
not far from my house. And afriend of mine was the one to
find it when it first fell. Andso he and I hiked back to it a
couple years ago. And I was justreally struck by this, like,
(27:04):
Queen this like beautiful,beautiful tree that was now
laying on her side in this, thisold growth forest. And I went
home and I started to like, readeverything I could about her.
And one of the things that alocal forestry professors said,
was dead, yes, but I prefer tothink she's just not vertical
(27:27):
anymore. And that idea thatlike, even in her what we might
call death, and it was adramatic death, like, not a
gentle death, not a pretty one.
What we might call death wasactually just the beginning of a
new, no, not even the beginning,it was just part of the
(27:48):
lifecycle. It was, it is very,it is a natural disturbance, it
is necessary. Some scientistssay that a tree fall and natural
tree fall in a forest is one ofthe most necessary events for a
forest for the health of theforest. And in the 300 400 years
she's going to take todecompose. She's going to
(28:08):
provide nutrients and a rich,rich ground for new healthy
trees to grow. And I'm just I'mso struck by that. And once I
began to think about that, like,I just began to see death
everywhere. And instead ofbecome it being this, like very
(28:31):
sad thing, it became incrediblyhopeful thing. It actually
became me like looking ahead andbeing like, that's exciting.
That process is actually reallycool. And really exciting. And
that's why when you talk aboutlike the unveiling that we're
experiencing, I'm like, yeah,we're just not vertical anymore.
Like cool. Like, some reallycool stuff is about to happen.
(28:55):
We get to become some like fungiand like moss, like we get to
become the body upon which likesome really cool, absolutely
necessary things in a forestgrow. Like the most integral
things in a forest, the thingsthat make a forest, a forest are
not actually the trees, it'sactually what's happening on the
(29:18):
forest floor. Because itcouldn't be a healthy forest.
Without that stuff. It wouldjust be I mean, you've seen
those, like really unhealthypine plantations, it's like not
a healthy forest, because itdoesn't have those necessary. It
doesn't have that, that deathprocess and decay and
decomposition. So we need thatto we're not exempt from head
(29:40):
just because we loved this.
Joshua Johnson (29:44):
It feels like I mean, you've gone through a lot
and like in the middle of yourbook you're talking about hurts
and grief and loss and pain.
There's a lot of death right themiddle of your of your book is
there. And you know looking atthe Out the window. And there's
looks like there's deathunderneath all that snow. And he
can't see anything growing. Hecan't see any any life. If
(30:07):
people are there, if, becausethere's a lot of people there
right now there's hundreds ofpeople that are there and hurt
and grief and loss, whether itbe betrayal of the church,
whether it be the death of aloved one, broken relationships,
whatever it may be, what can yousay to them, as you've started
(30:29):
to learn from? What is happeningwhen there is death and decay?
And is there any hope coming forthe people that are in that
space right now?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (30:44):
I think the first thing I would say is
like, I'm, I'm really sorry,that you're going through this,
like it's nothing I can say isgoing to fix or take away or
make the pain go. Again, MaryOliver things take the time they
take, oh, the rest of that poemis things take the time may take
how many roads do St. Augustinetake before he became St.
(31:07):
Augustine? That's the rest ofthe poem. And I think that, to
me is like, yeah, there's someroads you're gonna have to
traverse, before you get to bewho you want to be. And, and
before you can see yourself asas you truly are, as you are
loved and seen and cared for byGod. And that's just going to
(31:30):
take time. I think I would alsosay, maybe, maybe some of us
need to look up, you know, butsome of us need to look down and
see where your feet are. AndrewPeterson has this beautiful song
just came out on the new portersgate album. I think it's Andrew
Peterson. And maybe Leslie can'tremember their last name. It's
(31:53):
called centering prayer, Ithink. And then the line of it
is just be where your feet are.
And so I would just say thatthat would be my encouragement
to these friends who are in thatspace is just be where your feet
are. If you're feeling anger,let it rip. You're feeling
grief, let it rip if you'refeeling just like God cares
(32:13):
about those feelings. And Godwants to minister to those
feelings like he wants tominister healing and hope and
goodness to those feelings. Andthen we can't receive that
goodness, if we won't letourselves feel it. So
Joshua Johnson (32:31):
that's good. How did you learn how to feel?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (32:34):
Oh, my goodness. That's a whole other
podcast, Joshua. I am not a bigfeeler, I am a very by nature. I
stuffed all my feelings down. Ipretend I think about my
feelings rather than feel myfeelings. And I use you ask how
did you learn to feel? Iactually asked God, I said, God,
(32:58):
would you help me cry? Would youhelp me feel anger? Would you
help me to not run away from mytears and run away from anger?
And the Lord has answered. And Ihave found like, I have found I
have to still remind myself attimes, and I feel like tears
start to well up. This is good.
Don't apologize for that. Feelthose tears. Say what you're
(33:21):
feeling. Don't say you're thinkyou're feeling this, just say
I'm feeling this. And, you know,going back to what I said about
community, and my relationshipwith my husband, I think that
that has been incrediblypowerful in our relationship for
us to be able to say, because wecan both kind of run away from
(33:42):
feeling it for us to both beable to say I'm angry, I'm
frustrated. I'm sad. I'mgrieving, whatever. And it's
only born good fruit. And myrelationships. That's
Joshua Johnson (33:56):
good. I mean, yeah, I don't want to name
names. I do do know, people thatlike tears cob. They're like, I
apologize, I'm sorry. I'll bebetter. And that it's okay. Just
be there. be sad, be cry, showyour emotion, feel your emotion.
And say, be honest, this iswhere I'm at. And it's okay to
(34:20):
be there. You're not brokenbecause of that. And I think
that's some times, especiallythinkers, writers, they think
that, Oh, if I feel my feelings,I'm broken. And I need to get
over it. And, and so, I mean,you you've gotten to a place of
(34:40):
like, okay, I can feel myfeelings. How can people start
to move past that and not thinkthat they're broken because
they're sad or angry at themoment.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (34:52):
I just kind of want people to just like
close their eyes and envisionthe tallest tree in New York
again. And that tall and tallesttree in New York falling in a
forest and the thunderous soundit made, it made several sticks
of dynamite. That was the soundit made when it fell.
Joshua Johnson (35:10):
So if no one saw that did make it sound, it did
make,
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (35:15):
oh, um, I think just imagine that for a
minute. Just imagine like, okay,if I'm gonna let myself feel I'm
gonna, like, make a lot ofsound, and I'm gonna fall. And
then just remember that forestryprofessors quote, again, maybe
it's just not vertical anymore.
So you're just as important andjust as essential and just as
alive. And just as whole, onyour side, as you are standing
(35:40):
up. And in some ways, I'm goingto argue that you are even more
whole and more essential, andmore like powerful to the
community of trees around you,by having fallen than you were
ever in your 400 years of life,standing and being noble among
(36:01):
the pines. And so let yourselffall, it's like, let yourself
trust that there's still goodhappening, even though you're
not vertical anymore. And I knowthat's incredible. It's so much
easier to say, than to, to do.
But I truly think, I truly thinkthat's the way that we become
(36:24):
fully formed, whole humans is tofall.
Joshua Johnson (36:29):
So as you fall, we're in this grief where things
are taking time. We're lettingit take time, what is the what
is the emergence look likecoming out of that, that death
season, and we're now emerginginto something new. And, you
know, even if you take thechurch, as the church for halls,
(36:52):
it crumbles the institution,there's going to be an emergence
of something new, and it's goingto be beautiful and different.
And but it is going to revolvearound Jesus. What does that
process look like? And what didyou find?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (37:07):
I'll say, this is a slow process. While I
was reading the book, I watchedthe process of decomposition,
sped up in a YouTube video. AndI was like, Wow, that's amazing.
It has, you know, the wholevideo was like, you know, a
minute and a half. And yet ithad taken like, two and a half
months to get to this, likeloamy, soil space. And I just
(37:30):
think like, we want the sped upversion, you know, we want the
vast version. That's just nothow things happen. This is not
how it happens in nature. Andthat's not how it we are part of
nature. And it's not how ithappens with us. And so the
emergence, I think, is going tolook, I think it's going to look
a lot less dramatic, maybe, thanwe would like for it to look, a
(37:54):
little saplings are not verydramatic. They're beautiful, but
they're not dramatic. They'renot towering pines in a forest.
And so I think we need to, ifI'm really honest, I think we
need to go where the death is.
I think that's where that'swhere emergence is going to
(38:15):
happen. So we need to go to thespaces where we perceive the
absence of life, and you know,that for some person could be
like leaving a megachurch andgoing to a mainline church, that
could mean leaving yourcomfortable suburban house and
moving to an urban place ormoving to Gaza, it could mean a
(38:38):
lot of different things for alot of different people. But I
think we need to, I think one ofthe reasons that we're in the
space where we are, is becausewe've chased after things that
look like life, just becausethey're loud, and attractive,
and seeker sensitive, and thosekinds of things. But I think the
real stuff, the real good stuffto come is going to happen where
(39:01):
we're seeing a lot of death.
That was a real cheerful answer.
Sorry. Thanks
Joshua Johnson (39:05):
for that triple answer. I'm just reflecting on
my own life. And I know that thethe places in my life where I've
had the most life is where I rantowards death. You know, my wife
and I lived in the Middle Eastwe were we work with Syrian
refugees for many years. And Imean, that's that trauma, death,
(39:27):
war coming out of it. And we sawso much life it was incredible.
But my my question is, in ifwe're running to death, how can
I not get my own sense of selfworth and self importance out of
the life that I think I'mbringing to death? Oh, that's
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (39:51):
so good.
I mean, that is really, that'sour human like, that's the human
paradox, right? You know, we'renot Jesus. We are not the
Christ. And I don't think that'sever going to be we're we are we
believe we are our own gods, weare looking around us for Gods
we are we want other people tosee us as gods. So the whole
(40:12):
work of being human in the worldis just being like saying, I am
not the case, I am not God, Ioriented my life around Jesus. I
am not the center of of life.
And so I guess my answer to thatis I have no idea. Like, I have
no idea what it's going to take,you should expect it to come,
(40:34):
there is going to be a crushingin your life, that leads you to
realize I am not the Christ. Ihate thinking that you would
experience some of the thingsthat I've experienced in my life
like that would break my heart.
And yet, like you're going toexperience far worse things
probably in some ways than I'veexperienced. And these are all
reminders that we are not thecenter of we are not the one we
(40:58):
worship. And I think you knowsomeone I think desert really
good job of talking about this.
And so I just want to point tohis work. And you I think you
may have entered interviewed himwas Brian zahnd. I just think
Brian does such a great job.
Just talking through what itlooks like to sort of like, turn
(41:18):
away from our own selves andturn toward Jesus. And I've
learned so much from him aroundthese, these these things. And
so I guess my encouragement toyour listeners should be, go
read Brian's ons work.
Joshua Johnson (41:33):
There you go. Go read Brian's on, listen to my
two interviews I've done withhim. I love Brian. And he lives
about 45 minutes away from fromme. But I have never met him in
person. I'm really over over thecomputer, as we've talked on
this podcast. But yeah, Brian'sfantastic to be able to orient
(41:58):
ourselves around Jesus and whatthat looks like, and moving
forward. So if you say topeople, how now when we were
seeing the unveiling, we'reseeing death and decay all
around us. We're going throughthis grief and loss, we're
starting to see some littlesaplings, we have a little bit
of emergence, what does likelong term then like resilience
(42:22):
look like to move move usforward in, in our lives.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (42:28):
So in 400 years tree, one of three is not
going to that was the tree thatfell is not going to be there
any like to the naked eye tree,one or three is not going to be
there anymore. But the nutrientsthat tree wanna three has left
behind is going to be there foreternity. Like, she has changed
the ecological layout of thatforest. And so no matter what
(42:55):
she is here, she is there. Andaspects of her are there. And so
I think I think I just lost whatyour question was, which is,
Joshua Johnson (43:07):
then moving towards resilience, long term
resilience, I
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (43:10):
think we need to change our idea of what
resilience is, I think we havethis idea of resilience that
it's like, pull yourself up byyour bootstraps, and like, go
back to what you used to be andtry and regain the sense of
strength that you used to haveor like, rebuild these
relationships that you used tohave? And I want to say, No, I
don't think it's any of thosethings. I think it's a new
(43:32):
thing. And I think it's anothernew thing, and another new
thing, and another new thing, awhole new cellular arrangement,
every single day. That is thatallows like future generations
to build upon us and the deathand decay that we might be
experiencing right now. And so,I guess I want to say and this
might not sound super hopeful,but I'm not sure that I'm not
(43:56):
sure that any of us are going tobe big trees in our future. I
think I think we're in an agewhen a lot of the big trees have
fallen. And some of some of ourdescendants might see some big
trees again, or might become bigtrees themselves. But I think
(44:17):
for us in 2024 resilience is isaccepting the unveiling, it is
saying this is the new normal,and I'm going to, I'm going to
be here in it. And I'm not goingto try and get back to yesterday
(44:38):
or try to rush towards some sortof future version of myself. I'm
just going to, I'm going to behere and what that's looked like
for my husband and I in a timewhere we just haven't had a
church and good lord we've triedhas just been like not letting
go of the grief of that. Notjust sort of resigning ourselves
to well, this is just where weare Are and, and spoiler alert,
(45:06):
moving, like, we're gonna bemoving, we don't know where we
don't know when but we'reputting our house on the market
at the end of the month becausewe deeply need a community of
people around us. But in themeantime, it has been saying,
this is where we are. And we cantrust that God is at work in
this place. And that isemergence. That is movement.
(45:29):
That is, that is a little bit oflooking up from, from sort of
the destruction that we'reseeing grief that we're seeing
around us. So
Joshua Johnson (45:40):
beautiful. And good. Lord, if you could speak
to your readers and the peoplethat are going to read your
book, which I hope everybodydoes, because it is beautiful.
What do you hope people will getfrom the understory.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (45:55):
Think permission to I was gonna say
permission to just be where theyare. And maybe that's the most
important thing, permission tobe who they are. Andy Crouch has
this beautiful statement wherehe says to flourish is to be
magnificently ourselves. And Ithink my hope, in this book
whose message is so much aboutbeing here is that people would
(46:18):
just be able to be themselves,whether that's their grieving
selves, their Republican selves,their reformed selves, or
Methodist selves, their singlemother selves, their gay selves,
like I just, I want people to bewho they are. And to be able to
(46:43):
receive the love of God for thatspace in that place, and to
trust that God is at work intheir lives.
Joshua Johnson (46:52):
Moving forward.
That's great. Yeah, I've just acouple of questions I'd like to
ask at the end. One is if you goback to your 21 year old self,
what advice would you get? Oh,
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (47:04):
I literally just yesterday on
Instagram said letter to myformer self. So you just read
it? Yeah, I did. Trust your gutgirl. Trust your gut. Emily
Freeman has this quote thatsays, small red flags rarely
become smaller, they mostlybecome bigger. And I've just
(47:26):
seen that to be true in my life.
And I just wish 99% of the timewhen I looked around me for what
to do. I just wish I would havejust like, been still for a
minute and checked in with mygut. Because there have been
very few times where my gut hashas led me, led me wrong. And
I've come to think, as someonewho is oriented around Jesus,
(47:46):
now I've come to think of mygut, my intuition as the voice
of the Holy Spirit within me. Sotrust your gut girl. So
Joshua Johnson (47:57):
good. Anything you've been reading watching
lately could recommend?
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (48:01):
Oh, we're reading.
Joshua Johnson (48:05):
You don't read much to you.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (48:06):
I read a ton and I read, probably. Gosh,
what have I read recently? I'mlike, my mind is drawing a blank
because I'm probably reading somuch. I just Oh, I know what I'm
reading. I'm reading. Leifangers. Currently, I'm reading
his book, I cheerfully refuse.
And I love leaf anger. I thinkhe's the best novelists of our
(48:29):
century. And so this book is notdoing doing him wrong. I
cheerfully refuse. I'm also myhusband and I finished. We were
the lucky ones. It's a, a worldwar two mini series on Hulu. We
finished that this week. And Ithought it was really well done.
(48:52):
I don't think I'd seen aminiseries from that perspective
of World War Two. And it's it'sa dark story, and I think it
should be a dark story should bethe story that makes us think
about the choices that our worldmakes when it comes to image
bearers. You know, we also justwatch I don't know if you've
(49:16):
seen little drummer girl, whichis based off of John lecarre
novel, it's a mini series and Ireally love it. It's also has to
do with Israel, and Israelis,but it shows the Palestinian
view as well. And I felt we'vewatched it probably four times.
We love it so much. It's such agreat miniseries. So well done.
(49:38):
But it was really good for us towatch it. I think recently just
to remind ourselves of howcomplex this is, and yet how
beautiful humans are. Allhumans. Yep, that's
Joshua Johnson (49:58):
true. Yeah. All humans all humans deserve to
flourish. They deserve aflourishing life, then that's
good. Laurie, if you could say,Where would you like to connect
people to where? How could theyconnect with you? Where do you
like to point people to peoplego get your book.
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (50:16):
They can get my book. I don't know when
this release is, but they canget my book anywhere books are
sold. They can connect with me,I mostly hang out on Laurie
wilbert.com lorewylbrt.com. AndInstagram, at Lori Wilbert.
That's really the only socialmedia I'm hanging out on these
(50:38):
days.
Joshua Johnson (50:39):
Excellent. Well, go. Yeah, go there, go to Laurie
wilbert.com. Sign up for Lauriesubstack. And get more of her
writing because your writing isawesome and beautiful. No matter
what, whether it be Chuck's oryour emails and your substack
it's, it's great. So you wouldyou would not do wrong to to
read Laurie's words becausethey're beautiful. So do that.
(51:03):
So Laurie, thank you for thisconversation. Thank you that you
were able to actually walk intothe unveiling with me that you
should say that there is deathand decay there and that you
were able to learn from theforest floor as you've been
walking those those things inthat even the the fall of the
great trees, which are a lot ofour institutions, and churches,
(51:28):
the will actually bring aboutsome new saplings new growth,
the nutrients for the forestfloor and we can't have really
any good growth unless we havedeath and decay and some to move
through it as well. So thankyou. I really really enjoyed our
conversation. Thank
Lore Ferguson Wilbert (51:47):
you.
Thanks, Joshua.
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