June 24, 2025 • 48 mins
In this episode, I'm joined by Heather Thompson Day, whose insights challenge our perceptions of success, passion, and the presence of God in our lives. Heather boldly explores the idea that our true story isn't found in the circumstances we face, but rather in how we respond to them. We dive into themes from her powerful book, What If I'm Wrong?, discussing how passion is not about acclaim or abundance but about faithful presence even in uncertainty and failure. Together, we uncover how deeply God's faithfulness and presence are intertwined in our stories—especially when life doesn't go according to our plans. Heather’s wisdom and authenticity offer a refreshing invitation to live with courage and purpose, even when we're navigating doubts and difficulties. So join us for an honest conversation about embracing passion, redefining success, and finding peace in God's enduring presence.
Dr. Heather Thompson Day is an interdenominational speaker, an ECPA bestseller, and has been a contributor for Religion News Service, Christianity Today, Newsweek and the Barna Group. Her new podcast, What If I’m Wrong? debuted in the top 200 of all Christian podcasts. Heather was a communication professor for nearly 15 years teaching both graduate and undergraduate students in Public Speaking, Persuasion, and Social Media. She is now the founder of It Is Day Ministries, a nonprofit organization that trains churches, leaders, and laypeople in what Heather calls Cross Communication, a gospel centered communication approach that points you higher, to the cross, every time you open your mouth.
Heather’s writing has been featured on outlets like the Today Show, and the National Communication Association. She has been interviewed by BBC Radio Live and The Wall Street Journal. She believes her calling is to stand in the gaps of our churches. She is the author of 9 books; including It’s Not Your Turn, I’ll See You Tomorrow, Can I Sit Here? and What If I’m Wrong?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Heather Thompson Day (00:00):
I don't anymore think that our story is
(00:02):
the circumstances that happenedto us. The story is how we
respond despite thecircumstances that have happened
you.
Joshua Johnson (00:20):
Heather.
Heather, welcome to shiftingculture. Excited to have you on
thanks for joining
Unknown (00:28):
me, my absolute honor.
Happy to be here. Yeah, I'm
Joshua Johnson (00:31):
excited to dive into, what if I'm wrong your
book, and so I would love to youknow this book is, I think, a
lot about passion, failure, fearis God actually present with me
if I'm not successful in worldlyways? So since I think passion
is part of it, what are youpassionate about? What is
passion for you and what are youpassionate about? What are you
(00:54):
trying to bring to the world?
Unknown (00:55):
I am passionate about helping people realize that
they've been invited intosomething, that their life
matters, and showing up to yourlife matters, and how you
navigate each day actuallymatters. I'm really passionate
about that. Absolutelypassionate just about
(01:16):
encouraging people in the giftsthat I see in them. So if I
recognize something about you,it's very important to me that
I've at least been faithful,right? If we've crossed paths
and told you, man, I see this inyou. And then, of course, I'm
passionate about my family andGod and ministry.
Joshua Johnson (01:34):
How does that relate to some of our calling
and our identity and who we areas we're passionate about
something. And sometimes Ithink, hey, maybe for you, as
you were a teacher for manyyears, and that could get you
could get caught up like, thisis my identity. This is who I
am, or I'm a communicator. I'm aspeaker. This is who I am. How
(01:55):
do we move from a identity placeof this is what I do, to this is
who I am. This is the value thatI bring to the world and the
values that I want to see livedout in the world.
Unknown (02:08):
Yeah, I feel like everything I named to you, I
didn't even realize it tillyou've just said it, everything
I named to you is me sharing whoI am, right? And I relayed those
as passions. And I'm justtelling you, it has been a lot
of work and time and energy forme to get to this space. Because
I do wonder, three years ago, ifyou would have said, What are
you passionate about? What myanswer would have been, because
a lot of times I think we lookfor titles to validate calling,
(02:31):
but we are all called, right?
And so, so understanding what itis that God has gifted you with
uniquely and then how do youkeep showing up into the world
with that? I just think thatthat's very important. So like,
Okay, I would have said beforemy I'm passionate about
teaching, right? But really whatI'm passionate about is, like,
encouraging people, and when Iknow that, it no longer matters
(02:54):
whether or not I have a paycheckas a teacher, I can go through
life looking and payingattention to people and finding
ways to encourage them, and Idon't need a paycheck or a
committee to meet to tell methat I'm allowed to do that.
Joshua Johnson (03:11):
Sometimes you don't need a paycheck, but a
paycheck is kind of nice. You'venavigated places and times in
your life, and you lay it out inyour book where you didn't have
much money left over. Your dadhad Alzheimer's. You're trying
to pay for his care. AndAlzheimer's, you don't have that
money. So how do we continue?
What is passion? How do we knowthat God is with us when we see
(03:35):
financial failure or difficultythat we don't know where our
next paycheck is gonna comefrom. We don't know what's gonna
happen.
Unknown (03:46):
I wish I could answer that, you know, but the whole
point of passion is that it'swhat you are willing to keep
doing despite not having thosethings. So I can't control. I
mean, maybe some people can, butfor me, especially in ministry,
like I can't control there'scertain things I'm not willing
to do to try to make more money,because that's not the point for
(04:08):
me. You know what I mean? So Idon't know how to answer that.
For many years, the way Ianswered that was, I stayed at
my day job, and that afforded methe opportunities to to do
ministry and stuff when I could,until it felt like God had moved
me into a direction where, okay,now I can do this full time. But
(04:29):
this wasn't like an overnightthing. This is for me, this is
13 years, you know, of making alittle money here in my podcast,
and making a little money heretrying to write a book that a
few 1000 people are going toread and making a little money
here speaking at a church. Imean, I, I am not somebody who,
still, at this present moment, Iwould say, has known abundant
(04:53):
excess. I just haven't and soand indeed, Can I be honest with
you, like some of the most, I'mnot saying that people who are.
Super wealthy don't know God,because I don't think that's
true. I just think life is life,and some of us get afforded
opportunities and circumstances,sometimes not really because of
us right life just happens. Andgreat, you were at the right
place at the right time, and yougot lucky. And I think that's
(05:14):
wonderful, if that happens toyou, but I do want to be very
careful that we don't equatemoney to like success in God's
kingdom, or that that means Godhas somehow forgotten you.
Because I'm telling you some ofthe most spiritually sound
people I know, even right now,struggle financially, and I
(05:35):
still don't fully know what todo with that, but it is all I
can tell you. Is what I haveseen, and I am telling you some
of like I'm saying people withdeep, spiritual, prophetic
voices and gifting, strugglingfinancially. And so how do we
learn how to just stay in thispassion and be faithful and
(05:55):
obedient despite accolades opendoors and resources?
Joshua Johnson (06:01):
My wife came to me the other day. We, we adopted
a Syrian family, refugee familythat came in in the beginning of
January this year, and so we'vebeen walking with them. And we,
we chipped in a bunch of money.
Other organizations chipped in abunch of money for a car for his
family. Is a family of nine, andhe needs a minivan. He got in an
accident last week, and, youknow, the insurance company is
(06:25):
only going to give him a veryfraction amount of what he paid.
And he doesn't have a job yet.
He doesn't have, like, there'she doesn't have anything. And my
wife is like, Hey, we've giveneverything to us. It feels like
a waste. Like we just wastedthis money. We wasted this time.
(06:45):
It's all gone now it's a waste.
I think sometimes we we we havethat. We have the thing of,
like, Hey, I've poured myselfout. God, why didn't you show
up? Like, where are you in themidst of this? Like, why does it
happen to people that don't haveanything, and we're trying to
give to people who don't haveanything. Like, what do we do
when we feel like we're pouringout, we're pouring out and
(07:07):
nothing's coming back to us. Itfeels like we've spent all this
time and this energy for otherpeople, and it was just a waste
of time, even though I know,like, intellectually, it's not a
waste. Emotionally, hey, it's awaste,
Unknown (07:25):
yeah. I mean, I think God always comes back to you. I
mean, I think we do experiencethis is something I've been
asking myself a lot. I just gotback from an event where I so
clearly saw the hand of Godworking through me and with
these people. And so I would sayto people, where in your life do
(07:47):
you see the hand of God? Yourbrain is always going to tell
you where you don't, where doyou see it? And is that enough
to know I'm in the hand of God.
For me, that has become enough.
And again. This is not like Iwoke up one day. This is a this
has been a very long process ofme at first, if you read the
book, I'm literally shouting atmy ceiling, saying, Where are
(08:09):
you? I don't feel that wayanymore. And I think some of it
too. Like, was Jesus's ministrysuccessful? Did Jesus waste his
time? Jesus enters towns. Jesuspreaches sermons. Jesus does
ministry, and it says and thatthere he could do no miracles.
There is he successful, there isa and this is what it means to
(08:31):
enter into this upside downkingdom and to do this Christian
thing. And I really do thinkit's the narrow road. I really
do think most of us aren'tactually going to sign up for
this thing, because it's notoften blessing you in the way
that we see online, right? Butwhat we will experience, and I
(08:51):
can promise you this, because Iknow this to be true based on my
experience, you will see God.
You will get to know, and I'mjust telling you, something hits
different when you start torealize God is active in my
life. There's just it makes my Iactually feel tears welling up
in my eyes just saying this toyou. You couldn't like there's
(09:12):
what price do I put on that? Iwas just thinking about the
parable of where Jesus says thekingdom of God is like a farmer
who sows seed. And some of theplaces that he sows seed is on
rocks. What good farmer? So seedin rocks? This is the upside
down Kingdom where to beobedient to the work is success.
(09:35):
It's not about what actuallygrows. It's about you being
faithful with what God hasplaced in your hand. And I'm
telling you, as you start livingthis life, there's going to be a
lot of failure. I'm not sayingthat there's not I don't want to
take away from that, because itstings and it hurts and it's
like, Man, I tried so hard here,but I promise you, you will also
(09:57):
see growth. And fruit. You willsee both you do this thing long
enough, you will have themiracle stories that you say, oh
my goodness, I can't believe Ijust saw God work through me.
And you have to allow thosethings to carry you through the
seasons where you don't seeanything.
Joshua Johnson (10:17):
Well, that's the thing. How do you keep it
carrying you like we've seenmiracles. We've seen God show
up. We've seen we we know thathe's present with us, like he's
like spoken in the midst ofheartache and really difficult
situations, like he's providedfor in ways that we couldn't
imagine, but we still focus onthe the negative aspects, like
(10:39):
here and now, like, because it'spresent, it's in front of us.
How do how do we know? I don'tknow. Is it in my body? Do I
remember it? Is it somethingthat, like, how do I keep
reminding myself that God ispresent even in the midst of
failure, because I've seen itand he's been faithful. I know
(11:00):
it.
Unknown (11:01):
Yeah, you keep reminding yourself. And the
reality is you're not gonnanobody signs up to do this for
10 years. This is gonna be God,I'm here today. What do you have
for me today, if I knew, or if Iknew 13 years ago when I started
this thing, some of thedifficulties that lied ahead for
(11:22):
me, I don't I don't know that Iwould have done it right, but
the Spirit will empower you asyou show up each day, and a
prayer I pray every single dayis, Lord, please align my
thoughts with your thoughts,that my thoughts would work for
you and not against you. Andhe's been very faithful to me in
that process. But I still, Itell my husband almost every
(11:42):
morning I've got to go wrestledown the bowl, and that's what I
do. It feels like that. It feelslike I'm trying to wrestle down
my own earthly desires, my ownearthly understanding of what
success is, or to be in God'sfavor is, and Lord, help me
release myself of that so I canreceive what you actually have
for me.
Joshua Johnson (12:00):
You know, one of the things I love in your book
is you write about our mutualfriend, Danielle Cardis.
Danielle and I went to highschool together. She's great. I
was there when she got engaged.
She got engaged at a swellseason concert. Her now husband
was called up on stage. He like,set it up with the band. And,
like,
Unknown (12:18):
she got engaged right on, sending her a text about
this right after.
Joshua Johnson (12:21):
It was amazing.
And, you know, Bill and MelindaGates were there, so they went
up and congratulated them at theend, while we're hanging out, it
was, it was fantastic. I lovethat I had a party. I came back
from Korea at a party at herrestaurant when she first
started. So she's this chef. Herdream was, was a restaurant, but
the restaurant wasn't doing verywell. And, you know, she was in,
(12:43):
she didn't know if she could,she could do it. One of the
things that, as you were talkingwith her, you had a realization
that maybe I'm not going to besaved out of this pit at the
moment. Yeah, maybe no one'scoming. Maybe I the, I don't
know, maybe God's presence isenough for me. What did you
start to learn in the midst ofthis golden scepter chapter?
(13:06):
Yeah, Danielle was talking aboutwith you,
Unknown (13:11):
you know, when I first started to even write that
chapter, I was going a muchdifferent place than I ended up
going if you read to the end ofthe book. Because I do have this
miracle thing that happens atthe end of the book, that when
I'm first writing this chapterabout that, I'm talking to
Danielle, and what happened wasshe said to me, I'll never
forget it. We were on the phone,and I'm standing in my room, and
she goes, no one's coming. And Iwas like, it was the first time
(13:35):
that I really let myselfbelieve, oh my goodness, maybe
no one's coming. I keptthinking, eventually someone's
going to help and they're goingto help, and they're going to
tell me what to do, or they'regoing to help me get to the next
level. They're going to give methe pearls of wisdom, right? Or
connect me to their resources.
Something's going to happen. Andthen when she said no one's
coming, it was the first timethat I really let myself believe
that, and then I was kind offaced with this, yeah, is this
(13:56):
enough? Will it be enough toknow that I've been obedient and
know that I've been faithful? Ifthis is all there is, and can I
tell you I was like in a reallydark place? So also, I want to
say to the person listeningright now, yes, you will
absolutely have seasons offailure, you will also have
(14:20):
seasons of great joy. You to beengaged in your own life and to
live this thing is going tobring you both. And I actually
now I view failure and stuffvery differently, where I used
to just feel like, well, what ifI do this and I fail? And now
it's like, I think if I if mykid is trying to ride a bike and
they fall. Am I looking at themlike you are that is so
(14:43):
embarrassing, you just felldown? Or am I like, man, look at
them. They're getting back upand they fell. Oh, Oh, nope.
They're back up. Okay, oh,they're back up. And then
eventually, you know, as I'mwatching this, I'm going to be
like, Wow, this is incredible.
Look at them. Go. I'm going togo in and say, Hey, move your
arm right here. Put your footlike this on the pedal. Hey, sit
up. Put your head straight. Ithink that's what God does with
(15:04):
us. I think God delights in USengaged in our lives, and the
greatest failure is to just bedisengaged and to say, or here's
another parable, right to burythe talent and say, well, then
I'm not going to do anything,because I can't risk losing it.
I think a lot of us bury ourtalents because we're afraid we
(15:27):
won't have enough or or I'llwait until I have more
resources, and that's when I'mgonna go His strength is made
perfect. In weakness, go weak,and I in my experience, I'm just
gonna tell you what I have seenand what I have experienced in
my weakness is when I've mostseen the provision of God. But I
(15:48):
and I think that's available toall of us. It's just we're
waiting till we're strong to
Joshua Johnson (15:51):
go, as you say, the definition of passion at the
beginning is suffering. Yes,passion is suffering as it is,
why we call it The Passion ofthe Christ, right, right? It's
like the suffering of Jesus andbut we often think that if we're
in our passion, this the safestplace to be, but passion equals
suffering, and it could onlyhappen in risk, yes, and you're
(16:16):
going to fail and risk, you'renot always going to succeed,
right? Reframe this for me,reframe passion for me. Like,
what? How do we get to a placeof, okay, it's okay to risk, and
it's necessary to risk if you'rein your passion.
Unknown (16:32):
Yeah? So yes, the word passion means to suffer. So the
way I say this is passion is notwhat we do because we're
experiencing affirmation,accolades, open doors and
resources. Often, that's what wesay. Though we're like, oh, I'm
doing this because I'mpassionate about it, but really
what we're enjoying affirmation,or we're enjoying open doors or
we're enjoying resources,passion is what we can't stop
(16:55):
doing, despite not having any ofthose things. Figuring out what
your passion is leads you, in myexperience, to this deeper layer
of life where I no longer needmy circumstances to confirm what
I know to be true about who Iam. This is like when the next
stage of life begins.
Joshua Johnson (17:14):
I think it's easier to think about our stuff,
our own suffering, ourindividual suffering, passion,
and it's a lot more. I thinkit's harder when it's people you
love that are close to you, asyou see your dad with
Alzheimer's, as somebody whogave his life to Jesus and
(17:36):
ministry and was in it, and andthen seeing him like disappear
in front of you. I think seeingother people wasn't like in the
midst of seeing other peoplesuffer, that you love, that
you're close to, that you careabout.
Unknown (17:55):
Um, something I have to say to myself regularly is this
story isn't over. I thinksometimes when we're in the
midst of whatever darkness oruncertainty, we think that it
ends here, but it doesn't. Andhere's the thing, like my this
is what I talk about in thebook, actually, like my dad's
(18:16):
story doesn't end with my dad.
If my dad dies today, he hasbeen a pillar now in my life,
where I've learned thing I am adifferent person because of what
I watch, how I watched himnavigate and engage in his life.
These are and then hopefully, mykids, right? They become
different people because of themwatching me, who was watching
him. We do our lives are not oursingular lives. And I do think
(18:39):
in Heaven's perspective, it'sheaven is watching things go
from generation to generation togeneration to generation. And so
sometimes we may look at our onelittle individual story and say,
well, this doesn't seem likethis doesn't seem like a great
story, but we're not realizingthat we're a part of a much
bigger, broader landscape. Andall that to say as well. I don't
(19:01):
anymore think that our story isthe circumstances that happened
to us. The story is how werespond despite the
circumstances that havehappened. And so if you I mean
my dad, as long as his mind wasclear, always said, don't worry
about like God is with me, aspirit that never broke. I think
(19:24):
that that is something that allof Heaven has to stop and marvel
at. Look at this person, despiteno all these things that have
happened to them, and they'restill proclaiming that God is
good, that God is with them,that they have seen the hand of
God over their lives. That'ssomething I also think, like
supernaturally, what is, what doagents of darkness do with a
person like that? I think it hasto be quite, quite a scare or a
(19:47):
threat to their territory. Whenwe become people, when we become
the story how we respond. That'sthe story, the
Joshua Johnson (19:59):
incredible.
Thing, absolutely incrediblething is we have Holy Spirit
with us, yeah, like living youin us, like, closer than the air
we breathe, closer than our nextbreath. Like, presence is there
constantly. How do we payattention to that presence? Not
just, not just intellectuallyknow or like, say, hey, Holy
(20:21):
Spirit, I'm glad you're herewith me. But how do we pay
attention to that in the midstof just our everyday lives, so
that we can start to be likeyour dad and say He is with me
all the time?
Unknown (20:38):
I'll just I can only speak to what I've experienced
and what I've seen, I think weare so busy, like, let me just
give this very I don't know,small example I remember, this
is probably three years ago whenI started writing this book,
going on a walk. And it waslike, the first time I even
heard the birds. And it reallystruck me because I heard it.
(21:01):
And typically, when I'm walkingor, you know, I'm like, so busy,
or I'm running from here tothere, I'm so deep in my own
thoughts that I'm not evenrecognizing what's around me.
Ever since that experience, I'vemade it a point to say, Can you
feel the wind? Do you hear thebirds? How can I hear if I can't
hear that which is external tome in nature, you think I'm in
(21:24):
tune with what's internal to me?
I would say, not. And so thefirst thing that I would do, if
somebody's saying, like, how doI hear the voice of God? I would
say, can you hear the birdsstart going on a walk, and
listen, take 30 I mean, how manyof us even do that, taking 30
minutes to go outside and justlisten? I don't know. How many
(21:45):
people are living that way. AndI'm telling you, when you start
making these mental shifts, somuch more becomes you won't, you
won't even say anymore. Like,how do I know God's voice?
You're gonna it's gonna beyou're gonna hear it as clearly
as you hear the birds. It'sgoing to be this internal also,
let me say this too, because Ithink sometimes people think God
(22:07):
speaks external to us. In myexperience, it's deeply
internal. It's a voice that youdon't need ears for. It's not
something you hear with yourears. It's something you
experience with your soul, andso you have to be fully present
in your own body to evenrecognize what is deeply
internal to you. But theinvitation has always been for
(22:31):
God to live in
Joshua Johnson (22:34):
you if we need to be conscious of our bodies,
what does that look like foryou, what, how? What are some
practices to help you, like,recognize where you are. If I
look on the outside, and I lookat your life, you look you look
busy, you're a mom, you're aspeaker, you're traveling,
you're going, you're doingthings. And, I mean, I, I can
(22:56):
imagine when I'm busy, I, youknow, I'm not attuned. What? Are
practices for you? Help you?
Unknown (23:03):
Oh, can I please share this? Because so the number one
thing I know that, in myexperience, that I've done that
has been that has changedeverything for me, as far as
connecting to God, is I make Imean, every morning I get up and
I spend time with God, and I'vebeen doing this for probably 13
years. I get up, for me, it's5am but that's, I'm not saying
that other people have to dothat. For me, I have three
(23:23):
children, and so if I don't getup at 5am that's like, the only
time that they're not up, right?
And when they were littlebabies, they might get up too.
And so then it was almost scaryto even get up that early, but I
get up at 5am and I just sitsome. I mean, sometimes I'll
just sit with my coffee. I mean,let's even talk about that. How
often are you praying and you'renot saying anything, but we want
to hear God as we're talking allthe time. You know what I mean,
(23:44):
like making time to just sit inthe presence of God. And then,
of course, for me, scripture hasbeen a deep part of I have often
I mark, you know, in my Biblewhen I feel like, Oh, this is
for me. I feel this in my soul,like God is speaking this to me
today. So I'll put the date onit, and then as I go through it,
I go through my Bible everyyear. As I go through it the
next year, it's alwaysinteresting for me to see, oh,
(24:06):
these are the things that werespeaking to me last year at this
time. Another practice that I doall the time is, as I said
earlier, I go on I go on walkswith God. I've gone out to eat
with God. I mean, I've done alot of really creepy Christian,
weird things, but it has been, Idon't know, I treat God as if
this is a real relationship thatI'm invited into, and I want,
(24:28):
and I want to make space forthat, really. I mean, what do
you do in a marriage, right? IfI'm not making time to have
communication and stuff with myhusband and I, we tear it up. We
walk the block all the time. Youknow, having that same
intentionality with God. Andactually, I'll say this too, as
we're talking about being busy,something that's very important
(24:50):
to me is I will never put outmore than I'm putting in. The
world doesn't need more of me,and I promise. You, the more
I'm, the busier I am, the moreit's only me I'm giving you. So
the greater the output if I'mtraveling something I do now is
I fast every Monday, and that'sbecause I've typically gone out
over the weekend and, you know,spoken somewhere, but then
(25:14):
Monday is time for me to makesure I'm receiving from God, so
that when I go out again in twoweeks, I'm I'm sharing with
people what now I've beenreplenished by the Spirit and
experienced you know. Sodepending on how much output
you're doing, you really got tolook at your input. Is your
input greater than your output?
(25:35):
If it is not, I would reallycaution you against that. How
Joshua Johnson (25:40):
do you know? For you, how do you know when your
your output is greater than yourinput? What are the signs for
you
Unknown (25:49):
that's good? I am with God daily. Okay, I can't tell
you this enough. I can't eventell you how many times anymore
that I'm talking about God orthinking about God, or reading
my Bible or or listening to abook that somebody else wrote.
How do I know that I'm in linewith the Spirit? I would say
when I'm at peace, but I don'tknow that that's because
(26:10):
sometimes I'll, I'll, like,finish worship, and then my kids
will irritate me, and I'll yell,you know what I mean? So it's
like, and I was just there. Soit's just like, maybe it's about
how quickly I can bring myselfback. Am I feeling off for you?
And I mean, some people willirritate you as you go through
your day regardless, justbecause you're a human being.
Yeah, you know what? I mean,that's just normal. But how
(26:32):
quickly Am I able to come back,and how quickly Am I able to
recognize, Oh, that wasn't. Am Iself aware enough to know, Oh,
that wasn't. That wasn't a goodresponse, you know. And Lord,
forgive me. And am I saying tomy kids? Hey, I do. I want you
to know that was wrong. Mommyshould not speak to you that
way. That was wrong of me, and Ihope that you'll forgive me, you
know what I mean, like, Am I inline? I guess here's a really
(26:55):
great way to look at it. Am Irevealing love to other people
and to God. If you are doingthat, I would say you're in
you're in line, you're inspirit, you're in sync. It is
God who empowers you to bringlove to other people in this
world.
Joshua Johnson (27:11):
You know, when you were talking about your dad
and you were talking about youryour kids, you were thinking
about generations that heaven islooking at generations. How has
your perspective started toshift and change? Give me your
trajectory thinking about yourown life? Yeah, into a
generational perspective ofwhat's happening. How did that
(27:34):
shift and change? And how can weget a generational perspective?
Unknown (27:39):
It has given me a great deal of patience, because I I
trust now that whatever it is Ithink I'm supposed to have done
in my life, right, all I can dois be faithful and obedient, and
if whatever things aren'thappening, I'm okay, right?
Because as long as I'm inchingwhatever this story is forward
(28:01):
as best as I can for my if I'mmaking a mark in other people's
lives, I don't know what thenhappens to my student. Maybe
they get to do the thing that Iprayed I would do, and then I'm
still a part of it, which isexciting and incredible. I also
want to say like this has been ashift for me, is especially as a
woman in ministry, I did anevent for the apprentice
(28:25):
gathering in September inKansas, and it was, you know,
lots of different men and women,but a lot of the women just held
me after I spoke and cried, andI really it was the first time
that I realized I'm living theirprayers. They just prayed for a
space right to be able to or,who knows, who cut them down, or
(28:46):
what different ways that theyexperienced difficulty and
resistance. And so there werethings that, just by nature of
the time period in which theywere born, they were not able to
do that now, as we're now a partof this family of God me as one
of their spiritual daughters, Iget to do but would I be able to
do it had they not prayed for itfirst? Right? Like, I think all
(29:09):
of our prayers are deeplyconnected. We
Joshua Johnson (29:12):
were having a gathering. I worked in the
Middle East for years, and wewere going out with a bunch of
people, and we were working withrefugees in the Middle East and
Muslim refugees. And at the endof our gathering, we had a bunch
of missionaries that have beenin that country for for years to
come, just pray over us who werein that region and were working.
(29:36):
And we were just sharing storiesof what happened this past week,
where, you know, Jesus showed upin incredible ways. Like we
heard dreams of Jesus, therewere healings. Like people
decided to start followingJesus. Like it was an
incredible, incredible and wewere just telling stories. And
these two women that I wassitting next to that been in the
country for decades, they lookedat each other, and they started
(29:57):
weeping and crying and said,we've been praying for this.
Years for 25 There you go. Thereyou go. This is what we've been
praying for, and it's, it gaveme a new perspective, right?
Just like it did for you at theat at the apprentice gathering,
there's a new perspective like,Oh, I'm not my own, yeah, I'm
(30:17):
standing on the shoulders ofgiants that came until this hard
ground, just so that I can behere when the Spirit is moving
and something is happening. It'sjust incredible, just to shift
that perspective. Yeah, see,there's a new generation, and
generations are changing andmoving. It's pretty incredible
(30:41):
once you step back and you canstart to see what the Spirit of
God is doing in that place,
Unknown (30:47):
and then to realize there's going to be people in
their calling, because I washere, you know, and so that I
don't know, it just changedthings for me on my immediacy,
or the things I have to see Goddo in my life. I don't really
have a list of that anymore.
Joshua Johnson (31:02):
You don't have a list of that where you want. You
don't. What is your list?
Unknown (31:07):
What is your I did have quite the list of all the things
I needed to see. What's on itnow, nothing i Now, literally,
this is the first year 2025where you know how you like. I'm
somebody that always writeseverything down. So I always
make like, what are my goals? Idon't have any right other than
to I tell the Lord, I do want toexperience joy, and I just want
to be present in this thing. SoI want to be open to whatever
(31:30):
God is doing. But I have had toremove for me, and maybe
everybody's not like this, butI've had to remove how I think
this has to look, and as I'vedone this, I'm able to receive
what God is actually doing. Andmost of the time, of course,
guys, it's so much better thanall the plans that you thought
you had.
Joshua Johnson (31:50):
Yeah, I've always struggled a little bit
with, like, five year plans, 10year plans, because I've always
said, I think the core and thekey to life is to listen to
Jesus and DO what He says. Like,that's it. Like, if you could
just do that, he's gonna tellyou the plan. It's gonna get
you'll get there, listen toJesus and DO what He says. If
(32:11):
you could get to that place, Ithink you were gonna be in a
much better spot. It's not gonnabe about us anymore, you know,
yes, gonna be about Jesus. Yeah,about what he is doing on Earth,
but he's gonna take your youryour gifts, your talents, the
way that he's created you,created you, and and give you
some of those opportunities. Soas you've you've actually taken
(32:33):
away those goals in 2025 thinkabout the past and think about
now, and, okay, how has thatbeen different? Like, what has
been, what's been a struggle inthe midst of really not having
those goals, and what has beenlife giving?
Unknown (32:51):
I think I'm at a point right now, what are we in June,
where it feels very life giving.
I think it was much more of astruggle as I was going through
2024 I mean, I just think mypersonality is somebody who I'm
an Enneagram three, if anybodyknows what that is, my
personality is. Are you reallyokay? So you understand okay? So
this is hard. This is a hard forhallelujah. I am somebody who
(33:13):
always, like, had a plan and wasstrategized. How am I going to
get there? And what I'veexperienced in my own walk with
God is that He doesn't give methe plan like he just doesn't
tell me. I That was myfrustration. That's where I was
always coming into conflict withthe Lord is I'm saying, what's
the plan here? What are wedoing? What's next? And all, all
(33:35):
I've received from God ishimself, not a plan, just more
revealing of the character ofGod. Now this feels not like
friction, not that I don't stillhave like hopes. I don't mean to
say that, like I'm so altruisticnow, like it's not like I don't
still have hopes, and, ofcourse, like I still want
(33:56):
financial provision, but I'veeven like, my prayers have
changed. I don't spend that muchtime in my prayers, and I used
to just walk the block over andover and over and over again,
like, help me financially, helpme provide for my debt. Help me
make more money on the podcast.
Help me get more downloads. Helpme, Lord, if you're here, right,
(34:17):
I don't do that as much more.
Now my prayers are more likegratitude, because I can even
see it where before, I couldn'tsee it because I was so focused
on what I needed God to stilldo, that I couldn't see all the
things God had already done. Sonow it's like a lot of
gratitude. And opened my eyes tosee what you have for me to see
today. Opened my eyes to see theperson that you have me to see
today. And something about thisexperience is that every day is
(34:38):
exciting in some ways, right?
Because it's like, who's I don'tknow what God's going to do
today. I don't know who he'sgoing to bring across my path
today. That's
Joshua Johnson (34:47):
such a different posture. And I think it's a
deeper posture in our Christianwalk, in Christian life, and our
relationship with God, to takethat I think before in your
life, I think in my life, andlots of people's lives, I think
when we. First start followingJesus. It's really a
transactional relationship,right? Like, don't realize. No,
you don't, not at all. Like, ittook me a long time. It's like,
(35:09):
God, I'm gonna do anything foryou. This is what I and then I
say, God, look, look at what I'mdoing for you. Like, what are
you gonna do for me now? Now?
Yeah, exactly. And so how do wemove from transaction into a
deeper place with God as Hereveals who he is? Like, this is
like, the best marriage is a nontransactional marriage, right?
(35:30):
That's like, I'm starting to,like, get more and more of my
wife and reveal who she is, andit's not about me. Like we one
upping each other, trying to getstuff from each other. How do we
move from from transaction tosomething deeper? For
Unknown (35:47):
me, I remember I was on a run, and this is just, I mean,
I'm you guys. I haven'tgraduated like this is all very
new to me, this space that I'min. But I was on a run, I think
it was like in September. And Ijust remember very clearly
having a thought download to myhead that I perceived to be the
Holy Spirit, saying, I don'thave to be blessing you in order
for you to be a blessing. And itwas the first time that I
(36:08):
realized, like, I don't have toperceive that God is in that
moment being good to me, for meto then go be good to somebody
else. And when you realize thisshift, I get to experience
goodness and blessing at anytime I want. It is always
available to me, regardless ofmy circumstances or situation. I
(36:29):
can go bring blessing. I can gobring goodness into somebody
else's life or into this worldin general. And so therefore, I
am experiencing the goodness andthe blessing of God available to
me at any time, and these shiftschange everything, and the
nearness of God feels so muchnearer.
Joshua Johnson (36:48):
I'm just want to let you know. So I was reading
your book, and, you know,resonating with so much in your
book. And you know, failure whatI'm doing. You know, in January,
I stepped out of being anexecutive director of an
organization, and started tosay, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna
be doing creative work fulltime, and I don't get, I don't
(37:11):
have any money coming in, like,so there's nothing coming in.
One of the things that I'vestarted, I started to do, was I
worked on a one man show, so Ihave the script written, and now
I just need to, like, procurefunding to finish it and then go
do it. And as I'm reading yourbook, and I get to the to the
(37:32):
end, and the the woman whocontacts you says, It's a show,
I started weeping and crying. Idon't like I I haven't had, I'm
just saying I haven't had anexperience like that in a book
for a long time that it just hitme, and it hit me hard, like,
God's like, he's just presentwith me in the midst of, you
(37:55):
know, what I'm doing, what I'mgoing through, even though I
feel like, Hey, are you doingAnything for me, God, like,
where are you? Like, yeah, isthis gonna work? I don't know.
I'm risk. I'm taking a risk, andwe're gonna see and I'm I'm
throwing, throwing myself outthere. I don't know. I might
drown, but it may be worth it,and I'll pick myself up. So
(38:15):
thank you for giving me yourselfand like opening yourself up so
that you can, okay,
Unknown (38:24):
well, you wouldn't know this. You would not know this.
But I wonder, is this a Godmoment my dad, when he left
Broadway, that's what he did, ishe made a one man show. And it
sounds wild, but it wasincredible. And he did Jonah,
Jonah. And he, like, told thestory of Jonah, but he acted it
out in a one man show musicaltheater, and he just went from
(38:47):
church to church to church doingthis one man show. So I don't
know what your one man show is,but I am telling you I watched
somebody make that a reality andmake it happen. And what I don't
you might be the only otherperson I've ever met that told
me that you have a one man show.
Yeah. So is that interesting? Ithink it's interesting. And so I
that's what I'm saying. God isalways moving. He is always
(39:08):
looking for ways to encourage usand affirm us, and helps keep
going. In my mind, that's aJosh. Keep going. There's
something here.
Joshua Johnson (39:19):
I think so. And that's what it did for me. It's
like, in the midst of, okay, wefinished the script, we have it,
like, I don't know how I'm gonnaget money for this to be able to
do, like, finish the way that wehave actually written it,
because we've written it withvideo and, like, filming and
animation and stuff. So I justdon't know, but it just
(39:40):
encouraged me, like, keep going,and it's, you know, God's in it,
like something's there, and it'sgreat. So just thank you for
that, thank you for your daddoing a one man show, which
Unknown (39:52):
is, yeah, yeah. And listen, my mentor always tells
me it's just money. And the onlytime we can say it's just money
is when we've seen God provide.
Died in Uncanny ways. He has. Imean, whatever we think has to
happen. I never would havethought that this woman, I mean,
just not from Twitter. I mean,it is the most random, crazy
thing. I was talking about itwith my brother the other day,
(40:14):
and he was like, so what doesshe get out of it? And I was
like, nothing right, other thanto know that she's been faithful
to the Lord in this time, thatshe's supporting me. Yeah, you
don't have to know where themoney's going to come from. For
the money to come
Joshua Johnson (40:30):
it's the same thing. You know, as a church,
we're looking there's a fewthings that we want to do. And
as we had some people speakinginto us as a church, one person
said, you know, the money is theeasiest thing for God. Like,
money is the easiest thing forGod. And it just, yeah,
everything. Like, like, the theweight of everything just came
(40:53):
off. Like, oh, like, if this isGod, he's gonna do it, he's
gonna show up, yeah. And so asit's amazing, yeah, it's good.
Well, Heather, if you could talkto your readers and the people
that pick up your book, whathope do you have for this book?
What if I'm wrong and for thereaders of this book? Yeah,
Unknown (41:14):
I would invite everybody to submit themselves
before the Lord today, rightnow, as you pause the episode
and say, God, what could I begetting wrong about who I am or
about who you are, or about howthis thing is supposed to go,
give me eyes to see and ears tohear. Align my thoughts with
your thoughts, that my thoughtswould work for you and not
(41:34):
against you. Take that posture,pray it every single day, over
and over. What could I begetting wrong? How could I be
seeing this differently? Alignmy thoughts with your thoughts,
and as you go through and thisis again, I can't say this
enough, this is not going to belike and then you're going to
wake up in the morning, andeverything is going to be
amazing. Commit to yourself tothis process, and God will start
revealing Himself to you, day byday by day, little by little, by
(41:58):
little by little. So that whenwe look back without our 10 year
plan, but when we look back 10years ago, we say, Oh, my
goodness, I can't believe whereGod has taken me.
Joshua Johnson (42:09):
Amazing. That's awesome. So I hope people do get
that and walk in step with that.
Yes, read the book. The book isfantastic. Thank you so much.
Read the book. Couple quickquestions I have at the end.
One, if you go back to your 21year old self, what advice would
you give
Unknown (42:25):
21 I had just called off an engagement, so I was
Joshua Johnson (42:28):
congratulations.
I'm so thankful for women likeyou. My wife did the same thing.
Get out of here. She was she wasthree weeks from her her
wedding, and she said no, andnow I'm here, so I'm so thankful
for women like you. So welldone.
Unknown (42:45):
I love that. Yes, mine was two months before. Okay,
what would I tell my 21 year oldself? I would say, trust
yourself. I didn't hear that alot, you know. And if anything,
I didn't trust myself at all. Iwas like something I'm learning
now at 38 How do I trust myself?
I would say, Trust yourself,trust that the Spirit of God is
leading in you, and so trust,trust yourself to be obedient to
(43:06):
that
Joshua Johnson (43:09):
good anything you've been reading or watching
lately, you could recommend,
Unknown (43:13):
I just finished knowing Christ today, by Dallas Willard,
I'm almost Oh, this is reallygood, too. NIJ Gupta tell her
story. I'm I have like an hourleft of that one too. It's
fantastic for any women lookingfor understanding of women's
roles in Scripture. He has thisincredible thing on Phoebe, not
just carrying the letter to theRomans, but actually expositing
(43:37):
the letter, explaining theletter, speaking on behalf of
Paul as the church goes throughthe letter of Romans. It's just
incredible. His research onthat,
Joshua Johnson (43:45):
yes, it's so good. And yeah, we, you know,
the organization. Now, my wifeis the director. After I stepped
away, we were co directors. Nowshe's the director, but they're
big into women in leadership.
Oh, women and men, but as peopleare now asking questions were
given away. Tell her story byNIJ Gupta. And this is the book
has been fantastic one, becauseNIJ is a man, you
Unknown (44:08):
and I have the same God, or what that like so many
of our things like, align, isn't
Joshua Johnson (44:12):
that weird?
Yeah, it's all right. But that'sa great recommendation. That's
really good, fantastic. So howcould people go out get what if
I'm wrong, and where would youlike to point people to? How
could they connect with you? Oh,
Unknown (44:26):
goodness. So my website has everything. I have a
devotional. I send out everysingle Friday night that we're
trying to get more. We're tryingto reach 10,000 people by the
end of 2025 so would love we'realmost there too. We're at like,
almost 9000 so would love foranybody that's looking for a
Friday night encouragement tosign up for that. You can do
that by going toheatherthamsonda.com and, of
(44:47):
course, the book and socialmedia, all those things
are@heatherthompsonday.com
Joshua Johnson (44:51):
Great. Well, Heather, thank you. This was a
fun conversation. Really enjoyedconnecting with you, seeing
where so many things overlap.
And man. So thank you for givingus encouragement to be able to
walk in knowing that the God'spresence is with us in the midst
of our circumstance, and it'sabout the way that we react to
our circumstances more than whatis actually happening around us.
(45:13):
So thank you. It was fantastic.
Unknown (45:17):
Love my honor. Thank you for letting me be here. You
I don't anymore think that our story is
(00:02):
the circumstances that happenedto us. The story is how we
respond despite thecircumstances that have happened
you.
Joshua Johnson (00:20):
Heather.
Heather, welcome to shiftingculture. Excited to have you on
thanks for joining
Unknown (00:28):
me, my absolute honor.
Happy to be here. Yeah, I'm
Joshua Johnson (00:31):
excited to dive into, what if I'm wrong your
book, and so I would love to youknow this book is, I think, a
lot about passion, failure, fearis God actually present with me
if I'm not successful in worldlyways? So since I think passion
is part of it, what are youpassionate about? What is
passion for you and what are youpassionate about? What are you
(00:54):
trying to bring to the world?
Unknown (00:55):
I am passionate about helping people realize that
they've been invited intosomething, that their life
matters, and showing up to yourlife matters, and how you
navigate each day actuallymatters. I'm really passionate
about that. Absolutelypassionate just about
(01:16):
encouraging people in the giftsthat I see in them. So if I
recognize something about you,it's very important to me that
I've at least been faithful,right? If we've crossed paths
and told you, man, I see this inyou. And then, of course, I'm
passionate about my family andGod and ministry.
Joshua Johnson (01:34):
How does that relate to some of our calling
and our identity and who we areas we're passionate about
something. And sometimes Ithink, hey, maybe for you, as
you were a teacher for manyyears, and that could get you
could get caught up like, thisis my identity. This is who I
am, or I'm a communicator. I'm aspeaker. This is who I am. How
(01:55):
do we move from a identity placeof this is what I do, to this is
who I am. This is the value thatI bring to the world and the
values that I want to see livedout in the world.
Unknown (02:08):
Yeah, I feel like everything I named to you, I
didn't even realize it tillyou've just said it, everything
I named to you is me sharing whoI am, right? And I relayed those
as passions. And I'm justtelling you, it has been a lot
of work and time and energy forme to get to this space. Because
I do wonder, three years ago, ifyou would have said, What are
you passionate about? What myanswer would have been, because
a lot of times I think we lookfor titles to validate calling,
(02:31):
but we are all called, right?
And so, so understanding what itis that God has gifted you with
uniquely and then how do youkeep showing up into the world
with that? I just think thatthat's very important. So like,
Okay, I would have said beforemy I'm passionate about
teaching, right? But really whatI'm passionate about is, like,
encouraging people, and when Iknow that, it no longer matters
(02:54):
whether or not I have a paycheckas a teacher, I can go through
life looking and payingattention to people and finding
ways to encourage them, and Idon't need a paycheck or a
committee to meet to tell methat I'm allowed to do that.
Joshua Johnson (03:11):
Sometimes you don't need a paycheck, but a
paycheck is kind of nice. You'venavigated places and times in
your life, and you lay it out inyour book where you didn't have
much money left over. Your dadhad Alzheimer's. You're trying
to pay for his care. AndAlzheimer's, you don't have that
money. So how do we continue?
What is passion? How do we knowthat God is with us when we see
(03:35):
financial failure or difficultythat we don't know where our
next paycheck is gonna comefrom. We don't know what's gonna
happen.
Unknown (03:46):
I wish I could answer that, you know, but the whole
point of passion is that it'swhat you are willing to keep
doing despite not having thosethings. So I can't control. I
mean, maybe some people can, butfor me, especially in ministry,
like I can't control there'scertain things I'm not willing
to do to try to make more money,because that's not the point for
(04:08):
me. You know what I mean? So Idon't know how to answer that.
For many years, the way Ianswered that was, I stayed at
my day job, and that afforded methe opportunities to to do
ministry and stuff when I could,until it felt like God had moved
me into a direction where, okay,now I can do this full time. But
(04:29):
this wasn't like an overnightthing. This is for me, this is
13 years, you know, of making alittle money here in my podcast,
and making a little money heretrying to write a book that a
few 1000 people are going toread and making a little money
here speaking at a church. Imean, I, I am not somebody who,
still, at this present moment, Iwould say, has known abundant
(04:53):
excess. I just haven't and soand indeed, Can I be honest with
you, like some of the most, I'mnot saying that people who are.
Super wealthy don't know God,because I don't think that's
true. I just think life is life,and some of us get afforded
opportunities and circumstances,sometimes not really because of
us right life just happens. Andgreat, you were at the right
place at the right time, and yougot lucky. And I think that's
(05:14):
wonderful, if that happens toyou, but I do want to be very
careful that we don't equatemoney to like success in God's
kingdom, or that that means Godhas somehow forgotten you.
Because I'm telling you some ofthe most spiritually sound
people I know, even right now,struggle financially, and I
(05:35):
still don't fully know what todo with that, but it is all I
can tell you. Is what I haveseen, and I am telling you some
of like I'm saying people withdeep, spiritual, prophetic
voices and gifting, strugglingfinancially. And so how do we
learn how to just stay in thispassion and be faithful and
(05:55):
obedient despite accolades opendoors and resources?
Joshua Johnson (06:01):
My wife came to me the other day. We, we adopted
a Syrian family, refugee familythat came in in the beginning of
January this year, and so we'vebeen walking with them. And we,
we chipped in a bunch of money.
Other organizations chipped in abunch of money for a car for his
family. Is a family of nine, andhe needs a minivan. He got in an
accident last week, and, youknow, the insurance company is
(06:25):
only going to give him a veryfraction amount of what he paid.
And he doesn't have a job yet.
He doesn't have, like, there'she doesn't have anything. And my
wife is like, Hey, we've giveneverything to us. It feels like
a waste. Like we just wastedthis money. We wasted this time.
(06:45):
It's all gone now it's a waste.
I think sometimes we we we havethat. We have the thing of,
like, Hey, I've poured myselfout. God, why didn't you show
up? Like, where are you in themidst of this? Like, why does it
happen to people that don't haveanything, and we're trying to
give to people who don't haveanything. Like, what do we do
when we feel like we're pouringout, we're pouring out and
(07:07):
nothing's coming back to us. Itfeels like we've spent all this
time and this energy for otherpeople, and it was just a waste
of time, even though I know,like, intellectually, it's not a
waste. Emotionally, hey, it's awaste,
Unknown (07:25):
yeah. I mean, I think God always comes back to you. I
mean, I think we do experiencethis is something I've been
asking myself a lot. I just gotback from an event where I so
clearly saw the hand of Godworking through me and with
these people. And so I would sayto people, where in your life do
(07:47):
you see the hand of God? Yourbrain is always going to tell
you where you don't, where doyou see it? And is that enough
to know I'm in the hand of God.
For me, that has become enough.
And again. This is not like Iwoke up one day. This is a this
has been a very long process ofme at first, if you read the
book, I'm literally shouting atmy ceiling, saying, Where are
(08:09):
you? I don't feel that wayanymore. And I think some of it
too. Like, was Jesus's ministrysuccessful? Did Jesus waste his
time? Jesus enters towns. Jesuspreaches sermons. Jesus does
ministry, and it says and thatthere he could do no miracles.
There is he successful, there isa and this is what it means to
(08:31):
enter into this upside downkingdom and to do this Christian
thing. And I really do thinkit's the narrow road. I really
do think most of us aren'tactually going to sign up for
this thing, because it's notoften blessing you in the way
that we see online, right? Butwhat we will experience, and I
(08:51):
can promise you this, because Iknow this to be true based on my
experience, you will see God.
You will get to know, and I'mjust telling you, something hits
different when you start torealize God is active in my
life. There's just it makes my Iactually feel tears welling up
in my eyes just saying this toyou. You couldn't like there's
(09:12):
what price do I put on that? Iwas just thinking about the
parable of where Jesus says thekingdom of God is like a farmer
who sows seed. And some of theplaces that he sows seed is on
rocks. What good farmer? So seedin rocks? This is the upside
down Kingdom where to beobedient to the work is success.
(09:35):
It's not about what actuallygrows. It's about you being
faithful with what God hasplaced in your hand. And I'm
telling you, as you start livingthis life, there's going to be a
lot of failure. I'm not sayingthat there's not I don't want to
take away from that, because itstings and it hurts and it's
like, Man, I tried so hard here,but I promise you, you will also
(09:57):
see growth. And fruit. You willsee both you do this thing long
enough, you will have themiracle stories that you say, oh
my goodness, I can't believe Ijust saw God work through me.
And you have to allow thosethings to carry you through the
seasons where you don't seeanything.
Joshua Johnson (10:17):
Well, that's the thing. How do you keep it
carrying you like we've seenmiracles. We've seen God show
up. We've seen we we know thathe's present with us, like he's
like spoken in the midst ofheartache and really difficult
situations, like he's providedfor in ways that we couldn't
imagine, but we still focus onthe the negative aspects, like
(10:39):
here and now, like, because it'spresent, it's in front of us.
How do how do we know? I don'tknow. Is it in my body? Do I
remember it? Is it somethingthat, like, how do I keep
reminding myself that God ispresent even in the midst of
failure, because I've seen itand he's been faithful. I know
(11:00):
it.
Unknown (11:01):
Yeah, you keep reminding yourself. And the
reality is you're not gonnanobody signs up to do this for
10 years. This is gonna be God,I'm here today. What do you have
for me today, if I knew, or if Iknew 13 years ago when I started
this thing, some of thedifficulties that lied ahead for
(11:22):
me, I don't I don't know that Iwould have done it right, but
the Spirit will empower you asyou show up each day, and a
prayer I pray every single dayis, Lord, please align my
thoughts with your thoughts,that my thoughts would work for
you and not against you. Andhe's been very faithful to me in
that process. But I still, Itell my husband almost every
(11:42):
morning I've got to go wrestledown the bowl, and that's what I
do. It feels like that. It feelslike I'm trying to wrestle down
my own earthly desires, my ownearthly understanding of what
success is, or to be in God'sfavor is, and Lord, help me
release myself of that so I canreceive what you actually have
for me.
Joshua Johnson (12:00):
You know, one of the things I love in your book
is you write about our mutualfriend, Danielle Cardis.
Danielle and I went to highschool together. She's great. I
was there when she got engaged.
She got engaged at a swellseason concert. Her now husband
was called up on stage. He like,set it up with the band. And,
like,
Unknown (12:18):
she got engaged right on, sending her a text about
this right after.
Joshua Johnson (12:21):
It was amazing.
And, you know, Bill and MelindaGates were there, so they went
up and congratulated them at theend, while we're hanging out, it
was, it was fantastic. I lovethat I had a party. I came back
from Korea at a party at herrestaurant when she first
started. So she's this chef. Herdream was, was a restaurant, but
the restaurant wasn't doing verywell. And, you know, she was in,
(12:43):
she didn't know if she could,she could do it. One of the
things that, as you were talkingwith her, you had a realization
that maybe I'm not going to besaved out of this pit at the
moment. Yeah, maybe no one'scoming. Maybe I the, I don't
know, maybe God's presence isenough for me. What did you
start to learn in the midst ofthis golden scepter chapter?
(13:06):
Yeah, Danielle was talking aboutwith you,
Unknown (13:11):
you know, when I first started to even write that
chapter, I was going a muchdifferent place than I ended up
going if you read to the end ofthe book. Because I do have this
miracle thing that happens atthe end of the book, that when
I'm first writing this chapterabout that, I'm talking to
Danielle, and what happened wasshe said to me, I'll never
forget it. We were on the phone,and I'm standing in my room, and
she goes, no one's coming. And Iwas like, it was the first time
(13:35):
that I really let myselfbelieve, oh my goodness, maybe
no one's coming. I keptthinking, eventually someone's
going to help and they're goingto help, and they're going to
tell me what to do, or they'regoing to help me get to the next
level. They're going to give methe pearls of wisdom, right? Or
connect me to their resources.
Something's going to happen. Andthen when she said no one's
coming, it was the first timethat I really let myself believe
that, and then I was kind offaced with this, yeah, is this
(13:56):
enough? Will it be enough toknow that I've been obedient and
know that I've been faithful? Ifthis is all there is, and can I
tell you I was like in a reallydark place? So also, I want to
say to the person listeningright now, yes, you will
absolutely have seasons offailure, you will also have
(14:20):
seasons of great joy. You to beengaged in your own life and to
live this thing is going tobring you both. And I actually
now I view failure and stuffvery differently, where I used
to just feel like, well, what ifI do this and I fail? And now
it's like, I think if I if mykid is trying to ride a bike and
they fall. Am I looking at themlike you are that is so
(14:43):
embarrassing, you just felldown? Or am I like, man, look at
them. They're getting back upand they fell. Oh, Oh, nope.
They're back up. Okay, oh,they're back up. And then
eventually, you know, as I'mwatching this, I'm going to be
like, Wow, this is incredible.
Look at them. Go. I'm going togo in and say, Hey, move your
arm right here. Put your footlike this on the pedal. Hey, sit
up. Put your head straight. Ithink that's what God does with
(15:04):
us. I think God delights in USengaged in our lives, and the
greatest failure is to just bedisengaged and to say, or here's
another parable, right to burythe talent and say, well, then
I'm not going to do anything,because I can't risk losing it.
I think a lot of us bury ourtalents because we're afraid we
(15:27):
won't have enough or or I'llwait until I have more
resources, and that's when I'mgonna go His strength is made
perfect. In weakness, go weak,and I in my experience, I'm just
gonna tell you what I have seenand what I have experienced in
my weakness is when I've mostseen the provision of God. But I
(15:48):
and I think that's available toall of us. It's just we're
waiting till we're strong to
Joshua Johnson (15:51):
go, as you say, the definition of passion at the
beginning is suffering. Yes,passion is suffering as it is,
why we call it The Passion ofthe Christ, right, right? It's
like the suffering of Jesus andbut we often think that if we're
in our passion, this the safestplace to be, but passion equals
suffering, and it could onlyhappen in risk, yes, and you're
(16:16):
going to fail and risk, you'renot always going to succeed,
right? Reframe this for me,reframe passion for me. Like,
what? How do we get to a placeof, okay, it's okay to risk, and
it's necessary to risk if you'rein your passion.
Unknown (16:32):
Yeah? So yes, the word passion means to suffer. So the
way I say this is passion is notwhat we do because we're
experiencing affirmation,accolades, open doors and
resources. Often, that's what wesay. Though we're like, oh, I'm
doing this because I'mpassionate about it, but really
what we're enjoying affirmation,or we're enjoying open doors or
we're enjoying resources,passion is what we can't stop
(16:55):
doing, despite not having any ofthose things. Figuring out what
your passion is leads you, in myexperience, to this deeper layer
of life where I no longer needmy circumstances to confirm what
I know to be true about who Iam. This is like when the next
stage of life begins.
Joshua Johnson (17:14):
I think it's easier to think about our stuff,
our own suffering, ourindividual suffering, passion,
and it's a lot more. I thinkit's harder when it's people you
love that are close to you, asyou see your dad with
Alzheimer's, as somebody whogave his life to Jesus and
(17:36):
ministry and was in it, and andthen seeing him like disappear
in front of you. I think seeingother people wasn't like in the
midst of seeing other peoplesuffer, that you love, that
you're close to, that you careabout.
Unknown (17:55):
Um, something I have to say to myself regularly is this
story isn't over. I thinksometimes when we're in the
midst of whatever darkness oruncertainty, we think that it
ends here, but it doesn't. Andhere's the thing, like my this
is what I talk about in thebook, actually, like my dad's
(18:16):
story doesn't end with my dad.
If my dad dies today, he hasbeen a pillar now in my life,
where I've learned thing I am adifferent person because of what
I watch, how I watched himnavigate and engage in his life.
These are and then hopefully, mykids, right? They become
different people because of themwatching me, who was watching
him. We do our lives are not oursingular lives. And I do think
(18:39):
in Heaven's perspective, it'sheaven is watching things go
from generation to generation togeneration to generation. And so
sometimes we may look at our onelittle individual story and say,
well, this doesn't seem likethis doesn't seem like a great
story, but we're not realizingthat we're a part of a much
bigger, broader landscape. Andall that to say as well. I don't
(19:01):
anymore think that our story isthe circumstances that happened
to us. The story is how werespond despite the
circumstances that havehappened. And so if you I mean
my dad, as long as his mind wasclear, always said, don't worry
about like God is with me, aspirit that never broke. I think
(19:24):
that that is something that allof Heaven has to stop and marvel
at. Look at this person, despiteno all these things that have
happened to them, and they'restill proclaiming that God is
good, that God is with them,that they have seen the hand of
God over their lives. That'ssomething I also think, like
supernaturally, what is, what doagents of darkness do with a
person like that? I think it hasto be quite, quite a scare or a
(19:47):
threat to their territory. Whenwe become people, when we become
the story how we respond. That'sthe story, the
Joshua Johnson (19:59):
incredible.
Thing, absolutely incrediblething is we have Holy Spirit
with us, yeah, like living youin us, like, closer than the air
we breathe, closer than our nextbreath. Like, presence is there
constantly. How do we payattention to that presence? Not
just, not just intellectuallyknow or like, say, hey, Holy
(20:21):
Spirit, I'm glad you're herewith me. But how do we pay
attention to that in the midstof just our everyday lives, so
that we can start to be likeyour dad and say He is with me
all the time?
Unknown (20:38):
I'll just I can only speak to what I've experienced
and what I've seen, I think weare so busy, like, let me just
give this very I don't know,small example I remember, this
is probably three years ago whenI started writing this book,
going on a walk. And it waslike, the first time I even
heard the birds. And it reallystruck me because I heard it.
(21:01):
And typically, when I'm walkingor, you know, I'm like, so busy,
or I'm running from here tothere, I'm so deep in my own
thoughts that I'm not evenrecognizing what's around me.
Ever since that experience, I'vemade it a point to say, Can you
feel the wind? Do you hear thebirds? How can I hear if I can't
hear that which is external tome in nature, you think I'm in
(21:24):
tune with what's internal to me?
I would say, not. And so thefirst thing that I would do, if
somebody's saying, like, how doI hear the voice of God? I would
say, can you hear the birdsstart going on a walk, and
listen, take 30 I mean, how manyof us even do that, taking 30
minutes to go outside and justlisten? I don't know. How many
(21:45):
people are living that way. AndI'm telling you, when you start
making these mental shifts, somuch more becomes you won't, you
won't even say anymore. Like,how do I know God's voice?
You're gonna it's gonna beyou're gonna hear it as clearly
as you hear the birds. It'sgoing to be this internal also,
let me say this too, because Ithink sometimes people think God
(22:07):
speaks external to us. In myexperience, it's deeply
internal. It's a voice that youdon't need ears for. It's not
something you hear with yourears. It's something you
experience with your soul, andso you have to be fully present
in your own body to evenrecognize what is deeply
internal to you. But theinvitation has always been for
(22:31):
God to live in
Joshua Johnson (22:34):
you if we need to be conscious of our bodies,
what does that look like foryou, what, how? What are some
practices to help you, like,recognize where you are. If I
look on the outside, and I lookat your life, you look you look
busy, you're a mom, you're aspeaker, you're traveling,
you're going, you're doingthings. And, I mean, I, I can
(22:56):
imagine when I'm busy, I, youknow, I'm not attuned. What? Are
practices for you? Help you?
Unknown (23:03):
Oh, can I please share this? Because so the number one
thing I know that, in myexperience, that I've done that
has been that has changedeverything for me, as far as
connecting to God, is I make Imean, every morning I get up and
I spend time with God, and I'vebeen doing this for probably 13
years. I get up, for me, it's5am but that's, I'm not saying
that other people have to dothat. For me, I have three
(23:23):
children, and so if I don't getup at 5am that's like, the only
time that they're not up, right?
And when they were littlebabies, they might get up too.
And so then it was almost scaryto even get up that early, but I
get up at 5am and I just sitsome. I mean, sometimes I'll
just sit with my coffee. I mean,let's even talk about that. How
often are you praying and you'renot saying anything, but we want
to hear God as we're talking allthe time. You know what I mean,
(23:44):
like making time to just sit inthe presence of God. And then,
of course, for me, scripture hasbeen a deep part of I have often
I mark, you know, in my Biblewhen I feel like, Oh, this is
for me. I feel this in my soul,like God is speaking this to me
today. So I'll put the date onit, and then as I go through it,
I go through my Bible everyyear. As I go through it the
next year, it's alwaysinteresting for me to see, oh,
(24:06):
these are the things that werespeaking to me last year at this
time. Another practice that I doall the time is, as I said
earlier, I go on I go on walkswith God. I've gone out to eat
with God. I mean, I've done alot of really creepy Christian,
weird things, but it has been, Idon't know, I treat God as if
this is a real relationship thatI'm invited into, and I want,
(24:28):
and I want to make space forthat, really. I mean, what do
you do in a marriage, right? IfI'm not making time to have
communication and stuff with myhusband and I, we tear it up. We
walk the block all the time. Youknow, having that same
intentionality with God. Andactually, I'll say this too, as
we're talking about being busy,something that's very important
(24:50):
to me is I will never put outmore than I'm putting in. The
world doesn't need more of me,and I promise. You, the more
I'm, the busier I am, the moreit's only me I'm giving you. So
the greater the output if I'mtraveling something I do now is
I fast every Monday, and that'sbecause I've typically gone out
over the weekend and, you know,spoken somewhere, but then
(25:14):
Monday is time for me to makesure I'm receiving from God, so
that when I go out again in twoweeks, I'm I'm sharing with
people what now I've beenreplenished by the Spirit and
experienced you know. Sodepending on how much output
you're doing, you really got tolook at your input. Is your
input greater than your output?
(25:35):
If it is not, I would reallycaution you against that. How
Joshua Johnson (25:40):
do you know? For you, how do you know when your
your output is greater than yourinput? What are the signs for
you
Unknown (25:49):
that's good? I am with God daily. Okay, I can't tell
you this enough. I can't eventell you how many times anymore
that I'm talking about God orthinking about God, or reading
my Bible or or listening to abook that somebody else wrote.
How do I know that I'm in linewith the Spirit? I would say
when I'm at peace, but I don'tknow that that's because
(26:10):
sometimes I'll, I'll, like,finish worship, and then my kids
will irritate me, and I'll yell,you know what I mean? So it's
like, and I was just there. Soit's just like, maybe it's about
how quickly I can bring myselfback. Am I feeling off for you?
And I mean, some people willirritate you as you go through
your day regardless, justbecause you're a human being.
Yeah, you know what? I mean,that's just normal. But how
(26:32):
quickly Am I able to come back,and how quickly Am I able to
recognize, Oh, that wasn't. Am Iself aware enough to know, Oh,
that wasn't. That wasn't a goodresponse, you know. And Lord,
forgive me. And am I saying tomy kids? Hey, I do. I want you
to know that was wrong. Mommyshould not speak to you that
way. That was wrong of me, and Ihope that you'll forgive me, you
know what I mean, like, Am I inline? I guess here's a really
(26:55):
great way to look at it. Am Irevealing love to other people
and to God. If you are doingthat, I would say you're in
you're in line, you're inspirit, you're in sync. It is
God who empowers you to bringlove to other people in this
world.
Joshua Johnson (27:11):
You know, when you were talking about your dad
and you were talking about youryour kids, you were thinking
about generations that heaven islooking at generations. How has
your perspective started toshift and change? Give me your
trajectory thinking about yourown life? Yeah, into a
generational perspective ofwhat's happening. How did that
(27:34):
shift and change? And how can weget a generational perspective?
Unknown (27:39):
It has given me a great deal of patience, because I I
trust now that whatever it is Ithink I'm supposed to have done
in my life, right, all I can dois be faithful and obedient, and
if whatever things aren'thappening, I'm okay, right?
Because as long as I'm inchingwhatever this story is forward
(28:01):
as best as I can for my if I'mmaking a mark in other people's
lives, I don't know what thenhappens to my student. Maybe
they get to do the thing that Iprayed I would do, and then I'm
still a part of it, which isexciting and incredible. I also
want to say like this has been ashift for me, is especially as a
woman in ministry, I did anevent for the apprentice
(28:25):
gathering in September inKansas, and it was, you know,
lots of different men and women,but a lot of the women just held
me after I spoke and cried, andI really it was the first time
that I realized I'm living theirprayers. They just prayed for a
space right to be able to or,who knows, who cut them down, or
(28:46):
what different ways that theyexperienced difficulty and
resistance. And so there werethings that, just by nature of
the time period in which theywere born, they were not able to
do that now, as we're now a partof this family of God me as one
of their spiritual daughters, Iget to do but would I be able to
do it had they not prayed for itfirst? Right? Like, I think all
(29:09):
of our prayers are deeplyconnected. We
Joshua Johnson (29:12):
were having a gathering. I worked in the
Middle East for years, and wewere going out with a bunch of
people, and we were working withrefugees in the Middle East and
Muslim refugees. And at the endof our gathering, we had a bunch
of missionaries that have beenin that country for for years to
come, just pray over us who werein that region and were working.
(29:36):
And we were just sharing storiesof what happened this past week,
where, you know, Jesus showed upin incredible ways. Like we
heard dreams of Jesus, therewere healings. Like people
decided to start followingJesus. Like it was an
incredible, incredible and wewere just telling stories. And
these two women that I wassitting next to that been in the
country for decades, they lookedat each other, and they started
(29:57):
weeping and crying and said,we've been praying for this.
Years for 25 There you go. Thereyou go. This is what we've been
praying for, and it's, it gaveme a new perspective, right?
Just like it did for you at theat at the apprentice gathering,
there's a new perspective like,Oh, I'm not my own, yeah, I'm
(30:17):
standing on the shoulders ofgiants that came until this hard
ground, just so that I can behere when the Spirit is moving
and something is happening. It'sjust incredible, just to shift
that perspective. Yeah, see,there's a new generation, and
generations are changing andmoving. It's pretty incredible
(30:41):
once you step back and you canstart to see what the Spirit of
God is doing in that place,
Unknown (30:47):
and then to realize there's going to be people in
their calling, because I washere, you know, and so that I
don't know, it just changedthings for me on my immediacy,
or the things I have to see Goddo in my life. I don't really
have a list of that anymore.
Joshua Johnson (31:02):
You don't have a list of that where you want. You
don't. What is your list?
Unknown (31:07):
What is your I did have quite the list of all the things
I needed to see. What's on itnow, nothing i Now, literally,
this is the first year 2025where you know how you like. I'm
somebody that always writeseverything down. So I always
make like, what are my goals? Idon't have any right other than
to I tell the Lord, I do want toexperience joy, and I just want
to be present in this thing. SoI want to be open to whatever
(31:30):
God is doing. But I have had toremove for me, and maybe
everybody's not like this, butI've had to remove how I think
this has to look, and as I'vedone this, I'm able to receive
what God is actually doing. Andmost of the time, of course,
guys, it's so much better thanall the plans that you thought
you had.
Joshua Johnson (31:50):
Yeah, I've always struggled a little bit
with, like, five year plans, 10year plans, because I've always
said, I think the core and thekey to life is to listen to
Jesus and DO what He says. Like,that's it. Like, if you could
just do that, he's gonna tellyou the plan. It's gonna get
you'll get there, listen toJesus and DO what He says. If
(32:11):
you could get to that place, Ithink you were gonna be in a
much better spot. It's not gonnabe about us anymore, you know,
yes, gonna be about Jesus. Yeah,about what he is doing on Earth,
but he's gonna take your youryour gifts, your talents, the
way that he's created you,created you, and and give you
some of those opportunities. Soas you've you've actually taken
(32:33):
away those goals in 2025 thinkabout the past and think about
now, and, okay, how has thatbeen different? Like, what has
been, what's been a struggle inthe midst of really not having
those goals, and what has beenlife giving?
Unknown (32:51):
I think I'm at a point right now, what are we in June,
where it feels very life giving.
I think it was much more of astruggle as I was going through
2024 I mean, I just think mypersonality is somebody who I'm
an Enneagram three, if anybodyknows what that is, my
personality is. Are you reallyokay? So you understand okay? So
this is hard. This is a hard forhallelujah. I am somebody who
(33:13):
always, like, had a plan and wasstrategized. How am I going to
get there? And what I'veexperienced in my own walk with
God is that He doesn't give methe plan like he just doesn't
tell me. I That was myfrustration. That's where I was
always coming into conflict withthe Lord is I'm saying, what's
the plan here? What are wedoing? What's next? And all, all
(33:35):
I've received from God ishimself, not a plan, just more
revealing of the character ofGod. Now this feels not like
friction, not that I don't stillhave like hopes. I don't mean to
say that, like I'm so altruisticnow, like it's not like I don't
still have hopes, and, ofcourse, like I still want
(33:56):
financial provision, but I'veeven like, my prayers have
changed. I don't spend that muchtime in my prayers, and I used
to just walk the block over andover and over and over again,
like, help me financially, helpme provide for my debt. Help me
make more money on the podcast.
Help me get more downloads. Helpme, Lord, if you're here, right,
(34:17):
I don't do that as much more.
Now my prayers are more likegratitude, because I can even
see it where before, I couldn'tsee it because I was so focused
on what I needed God to stilldo, that I couldn't see all the
things God had already done. Sonow it's like a lot of
gratitude. And opened my eyes tosee what you have for me to see
today. Opened my eyes to see theperson that you have me to see
today. And something about thisexperience is that every day is
(34:38):
exciting in some ways, right?
Because it's like, who's I don'tknow what God's going to do
today. I don't know who he'sgoing to bring across my path
today. That's
Joshua Johnson (34:47):
such a different posture. And I think it's a
deeper posture in our Christianwalk, in Christian life, and our
relationship with God, to takethat I think before in your
life, I think in my life, andlots of people's lives, I think
when we. First start followingJesus. It's really a
transactional relationship,right? Like, don't realize. No,
you don't, not at all. Like, ittook me a long time. It's like,
(35:09):
God, I'm gonna do anything foryou. This is what I and then I
say, God, look, look at what I'mdoing for you. Like, what are
you gonna do for me now? Now?
Yeah, exactly. And so how do wemove from transaction into a
deeper place with God as Hereveals who he is? Like, this is
like, the best marriage is a nontransactional marriage, right?
(35:30):
That's like, I'm starting to,like, get more and more of my
wife and reveal who she is, andit's not about me. Like we one
upping each other, trying to getstuff from each other. How do we
move from from transaction tosomething deeper? For
Unknown (35:47):
me, I remember I was on a run, and this is just, I mean,
I'm you guys. I haven'tgraduated like this is all very
new to me, this space that I'min. But I was on a run, I think
it was like in September. And Ijust remember very clearly
having a thought download to myhead that I perceived to be the
Holy Spirit, saying, I don'thave to be blessing you in order
for you to be a blessing. And itwas the first time that I
(36:08):
realized, like, I don't have toperceive that God is in that
moment being good to me, for meto then go be good to somebody
else. And when you realize thisshift, I get to experience
goodness and blessing at anytime I want. It is always
available to me, regardless ofmy circumstances or situation. I
(36:29):
can go bring blessing. I can gobring goodness into somebody
else's life or into this worldin general. And so therefore, I
am experiencing the goodness andthe blessing of God available to
me at any time, and these shiftschange everything, and the
nearness of God feels so muchnearer.
Joshua Johnson (36:48):
I'm just want to let you know. So I was reading
your book, and, you know,resonating with so much in your
book. And you know, failure whatI'm doing. You know, in January,
I stepped out of being anexecutive director of an
organization, and started tosay, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna
be doing creative work fulltime, and I don't get, I don't
(37:11):
have any money coming in, like,so there's nothing coming in.
One of the things that I'vestarted, I started to do, was I
worked on a one man show, so Ihave the script written, and now
I just need to, like, procurefunding to finish it and then go
do it. And as I'm reading yourbook, and I get to the to the
(37:32):
end, and the the woman whocontacts you says, It's a show,
I started weeping and crying. Idon't like I I haven't had, I'm
just saying I haven't had anexperience like that in a book
for a long time that it just hitme, and it hit me hard, like,
God's like, he's just presentwith me in the midst of, you
(37:55):
know, what I'm doing, what I'mgoing through, even though I
feel like, Hey, are you doingAnything for me, God, like,
where are you? Like, yeah, isthis gonna work? I don't know.
I'm risk. I'm taking a risk, andwe're gonna see and I'm I'm
throwing, throwing myself outthere. I don't know. I might
drown, but it may be worth it,and I'll pick myself up. So
(38:15):
thank you for giving me yourselfand like opening yourself up so
that you can, okay,
Unknown (38:24):
well, you wouldn't know this. You would not know this.
But I wonder, is this a Godmoment my dad, when he left
Broadway, that's what he did, ishe made a one man show. And it
sounds wild, but it wasincredible. And he did Jonah,
Jonah. And he, like, told thestory of Jonah, but he acted it
out in a one man show musicaltheater, and he just went from
(38:47):
church to church to church doingthis one man show. So I don't
know what your one man show is,but I am telling you I watched
somebody make that a reality andmake it happen. And what I don't
you might be the only otherperson I've ever met that told
me that you have a one man show.
Yeah. So is that interesting? Ithink it's interesting. And so I
that's what I'm saying. God isalways moving. He is always
(39:08):
looking for ways to encourage usand affirm us, and helps keep
going. In my mind, that's aJosh. Keep going. There's
something here.
Joshua Johnson (39:19):
I think so. And that's what it did for me. It's
like, in the midst of, okay, wefinished the script, we have it,
like, I don't know how I'm gonnaget money for this to be able to
do, like, finish the way that wehave actually written it,
because we've written it withvideo and, like, filming and
animation and stuff. So I justdon't know, but it just
(39:40):
encouraged me, like, keep going,and it's, you know, God's in it,
like something's there, and it'sgreat. So just thank you for
that, thank you for your daddoing a one man show, which
Unknown (39:52):
is, yeah, yeah. And listen, my mentor always tells
me it's just money. And the onlytime we can say it's just money
is when we've seen God provide.
Died in Uncanny ways. He has. Imean, whatever we think has to
happen. I never would havethought that this woman, I mean,
just not from Twitter. I mean,it is the most random, crazy
thing. I was talking about itwith my brother the other day,
(40:14):
and he was like, so what doesshe get out of it? And I was
like, nothing right, other thanto know that she's been faithful
to the Lord in this time, thatshe's supporting me. Yeah, you
don't have to know where themoney's going to come from. For
the money to come
Joshua Johnson (40:30):
it's the same thing. You know, as a church,
we're looking there's a fewthings that we want to do. And
as we had some people speakinginto us as a church, one person
said, you know, the money is theeasiest thing for God. Like,
money is the easiest thing forGod. And it just, yeah,
everything. Like, like, the theweight of everything just came
(40:53):
off. Like, oh, like, if this isGod, he's gonna do it, he's
gonna show up, yeah. And so asit's amazing, yeah, it's good.
Well, Heather, if you could talkto your readers and the people
that pick up your book, whathope do you have for this book?
What if I'm wrong and for thereaders of this book? Yeah,
Unknown (41:14):
I would invite everybody to submit themselves
before the Lord today, rightnow, as you pause the episode
and say, God, what could I begetting wrong about who I am or
about who you are, or about howthis thing is supposed to go,
give me eyes to see and ears tohear. Align my thoughts with
your thoughts, that my thoughtswould work for you and not
(41:34):
against you. Take that posture,pray it every single day, over
and over. What could I begetting wrong? How could I be
seeing this differently? Alignmy thoughts with your thoughts,
and as you go through and thisis again, I can't say this
enough, this is not going to belike and then you're going to
wake up in the morning, andeverything is going to be
amazing. Commit to yourself tothis process, and God will start
revealing Himself to you, day byday by day, little by little, by
(41:58):
little by little. So that whenwe look back without our 10 year
plan, but when we look back 10years ago, we say, Oh, my
goodness, I can't believe whereGod has taken me.
Joshua Johnson (42:09):
Amazing. That's awesome. So I hope people do get
that and walk in step with that.
Yes, read the book. The book isfantastic. Thank you so much.
Read the book. Couple quickquestions I have at the end.
One, if you go back to your 21year old self, what advice would
you give
Unknown (42:25):
21 I had just called off an engagement, so I was
Joshua Johnson (42:28):
congratulations.
I'm so thankful for women likeyou. My wife did the same thing.
Get out of here. She was she wasthree weeks from her her
wedding, and she said no, andnow I'm here, so I'm so thankful
for women like you. So welldone.
Unknown (42:45):
I love that. Yes, mine was two months before. Okay,
what would I tell my 21 year oldself? I would say, trust
yourself. I didn't hear that alot, you know. And if anything,
I didn't trust myself at all. Iwas like something I'm learning
now at 38 How do I trust myself?
I would say, Trust yourself,trust that the Spirit of God is
leading in you, and so trust,trust yourself to be obedient to
(43:06):
that
Joshua Johnson (43:09):
good anything you've been reading or watching
lately, you could recommend,
Unknown (43:13):
I just finished knowing Christ today, by Dallas Willard,
I'm almost Oh, this is reallygood, too. NIJ Gupta tell her
story. I'm I have like an hourleft of that one too. It's
fantastic for any women lookingfor understanding of women's
roles in Scripture. He has thisincredible thing on Phoebe, not
just carrying the letter to theRomans, but actually expositing
(43:37):
the letter, explaining theletter, speaking on behalf of
Paul as the church goes throughthe letter of Romans. It's just
incredible. His research onthat,
Joshua Johnson (43:45):
yes, it's so good. And yeah, we, you know,
the organization. Now, my wifeis the director. After I stepped
away, we were co directors. Nowshe's the director, but they're
big into women in leadership.
Oh, women and men, but as peopleare now asking questions were
given away. Tell her story byNIJ Gupta. And this is the book
has been fantastic one, becauseNIJ is a man, you
Unknown (44:08):
and I have the same God, or what that like so many
of our things like, align, isn't
Joshua Johnson (44:12):
that weird?
Yeah, it's all right. But that'sa great recommendation. That's
really good, fantastic. So howcould people go out get what if
I'm wrong, and where would youlike to point people to? How
could they connect with you? Oh,
Unknown (44:26):
goodness. So my website has everything. I have a
devotional. I send out everysingle Friday night that we're
trying to get more. We're tryingto reach 10,000 people by the
end of 2025 so would love we'realmost there too. We're at like,
almost 9000 so would love foranybody that's looking for a
Friday night encouragement tosign up for that. You can do
that by going toheatherthamsonda.com and, of
(44:47):
course, the book and socialmedia, all those things
are@heatherthompsonday.com
Joshua Johnson (44:51):
Great. Well, Heather, thank you. This was a
fun conversation. Really enjoyedconnecting with you, seeing
where so many things overlap.
And man. So thank you for givingus encouragement to be able to
walk in knowing that the God'spresence is with us in the midst
of our circumstance, and it'sabout the way that we react to
our circumstances more than whatis actually happening around us.
(45:13):
So thank you. It was fantastic.
Unknown (45:17):
Love my honor. Thank you for letting me be here. You
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