September 23, 2025 • 54 mins
Joash P. Thomas joins me to talk about the justice of Jesus and what it means for the gospel to truly be good news for the poor and the oppressed. We trace Joash’s journey from growing up in Mumbai to working in U.S. politics, and then to encountering Jesus on the margins. Along the way, we explore how colonialism has shaped both the Global South and the Western church, why decolonizing our own assumptions is vital, and how Jesus’ ministry invites us into a justice that is both spiritual and physical. This episode is an invitation to imagine a church rooted not in empire or success, but in faithfulness, humility, and solidarity with our marginalized neighbors.
Rev. Joash P. Thomas is an author, speaker, and global human rights leader.
Drawing from his St. Thomas Indian Christian roots and a decolonized, justice-centered understanding of Scripture, Joash helps audiences reimagine a faith that unites rather than divides—and that stands firmly with neighbors on the margins. Through speaking engagements, teaching, and advocacy, he calls Christians to a more contemplative yet courageous activism, motivated by the grace-filled, non-violent way of Jesus.
Born and raised in India, Joash served as a U.S. political consultant and lobbyist before pivoting to global human rights advocacy. Now based in the Toronto area, he holds a master’s degree in Political Management from The George Washington University and has completed master’s degrees in Christian Leadership and Christian Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. A Deacon in the Diocese of St. Anthony, Joash is also the author of the forthcoming book The Justice of Jesus (Brazos Press, September 2025).
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joash Thomas (00:00):
God does have a preferential option for people
(00:03):
who are poor and oppressed. Wesee that all throughout
Scripture. We see that in thelife of Jesus, the early church
as well. And you know, what'sbeautiful about that is that
this doesn't mean that Goddoesn't love the rich and the
powerful. He loves the rich andthe powerful. This doesn't mean
that people who are poor andoppressed are ontologically
better people who are rich andpowerful. It doesn't mean that
(00:24):
either. What it does mean isthat the powerful have money and
wealth and power on their side.
The poor and oppressed have noone on their side. So God shows
up for the poor and theoppressed and you ash,
Joshua Johnson (00:49):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. Today, Isit down with Joash P Thomas to
talk about the justice of Jesus.
Joash grew up in Mumbai in a StThomas Christian family. He
immigrated to the US as ateenager and is now in Canada as
a clergyman and working forjustice organizations. His
(01:14):
journey has been one ofdetangling Empire shaped faith
and reimagining the gospel astruly good news for the poor and
the oppressed. Our conversationmoves through some big themes,
how colonialism has harmed notonly the global south but also
the Western Church, whydecolonizing our own assumptions
is just as important ascontextualizing the gospel for
(01:34):
others, and how Jesus life andministry point us toward a
justice that is embodied,spiritual and physical all at
once. We talk about what itlooks like to advocate without
making it about us to see Christalready present in the margins
and to imagine a church shapedmore by faithfulness than by
success. This is a conversationabout recovering the gospel as
(01:56):
good news again, good news thatsets captives free, lifts up the
oppressed and calls us to followJesus with humility and courage.
So join us. Here is myconversation with Joash. P
Thomas, Joash, welcome toshifting culture. Thanks for
joining me. Excited to have you.
(02:16):
Yeah, thanks for having me. Whatan honor. I think your story can
help us situate ourselves inthis conversation, because I
think you've gone on a journeyof entangling different things
to your own faith and thendetangling things, and I think
that will actually probably helpall of us to figure out what
that looks like. I know you grewup in Mumbai, so what was that
(02:40):
like growing up, really, and howdid that shape your faith
through your you're actuallygrowing up in India with your
family and the history that youhave with your family?
Joash Thomas (02:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I was born and raised inMumbai, India to an Indian
Christian family, a St ThomasIndian Christian family. So my
family has been Christian fornearly 2000 years, going back to
the Apostle Thomas, who broughtus the gospel. So my ancestors
have been everything fromorthodox to Catholic to, you
know, Pentecostal, for the lastfive generations. So I have it
(03:14):
all in my DNA. So I think I'vegot a view of the church that's
very ecumenical because of this.
And also being raised in theglobal south Evangelical Church,
I've noticed that you do tend tobe more ecumenical and more
pluralistic than WesternChristians, especially Western
evangelicals. And so I'mgrateful for those values. Those
(03:36):
are two values that I bring outin the book as I talk about
retrieving justice in theWestern Church,
Joshua Johnson (03:41):
and so then, as you moved to the United States,
you immigrated into the US whenyou were 18, yeah, you ended up
going to university becoming apolitical consultant. How did
your time in the US as as animmigrant start to really shape
your faith? What did you absorbduring that time, what were the
(04:02):
top thinkings that you weresaying? Maybe I missed something
in India. Maybe there'ssomething here in America that
is good, that I need to actuallytake on. And then maybe some of
that stuff you realized maybe Ishouldn't have taken that on
right away when it came in,
Joash Thomas (04:17):
right, right? I mean, it was definitely a
journey. And looking back now, Ithink there were racial elements
to this journey for me as well.
So as a brown person of color,as an immigrant moving to the US
South, wanting to be as Americanas possible, so I assimilated
pretty hard. I tried to be aswhite evangelical American as I
could, which is how I think Iended up in Georgia Republican
(04:40):
politics, working as a politicalconsultant and lobbyist, and,
you know, as a Liberation andJustice theologian. Today, no
one would assume that of me, butthat has been my journey. And so
I know I still know people inthat world today. People are
elected officials even, and Iknow where they're coming from.
I know where their voters are.
Coming from, I help them domessaging to those voters and
(05:03):
so, so I have a lot of grace andempathy for that and that part
of my journey. But, but, youknow, a Yeah, like you said,
jumped in as a collegeRepublican. I was chairman of my
university Republican chapter,you know, I served on the boards
for the Georgia YoungRepublicans, the Atlanta Young
Republicans. I worked, you know,as the former governor of
(05:23):
Georgia's speechwriter and hisre election campaign. Worked for
Marco Rubio when he ran forpresident, right? I mean, so I
did all these things. I had allthese credentials, and I think
what really did it for me wasspending time on the margins,
ultimately, because that's whereI encountered Jesus, really, for
the first time. And you know, Ioften tell people that I looked
(05:44):
for Jesus in the halls of power.
I thought I'd find him there. Inever found him there. Found him
on the margins, the place that Ididn't expect to find him. And
that's what shaped me, workingin international development,
human rights. And you know, evenmy journey into the church as a
clergyman today, as an ordainedminister. You know, I tell
people still in the conservativepolitical world, you know, you
(06:05):
may think you're advocating forthe rights of some of our
marginalized neighbors, but thechurch is called to advocate for
the rights of all of ourmarginalized neighbors, and I
think I feel that heavily as aclergyman today.
Joshua Johnson (06:18):
So you said, found Jesus in the margins,
yeah, in the marginalized. Whatdid that look like for you,
tangibly? How did you find Jesusin the margins?
Joash Thomas (06:26):
Yeah, yeah. So I took a year off after
university. People told me I wascrazy. It was a presidential
election year, right? And 20152016 a little bit going on in
the US political world. Backthen, when I took a year off, I
went back to India, served withan anti trafficking
organization. It was deeplyformative for me, not just
(06:49):
seeing courage of survivors onthe margins, but also seeing the
courage of the local churchthere, and the ways in which
they prioritize justice andsocial action as an expression
of the gospel. You know, I thinkwhat was really paradigm
shattering for me wasspecifically seeing the courage
of the local church when theyhad targets in their backs,
(07:13):
when, you know, because thatcontext still is a persecuted
church context today, and theyhad every right to be advocating
for themselves, I would seeeveryday Christians and the
global south evangelical contexteven going out and advocating
for the rights of those withlesser privilege than them. And
for me, that brought me back toPhilippians chapter two, where
(07:34):
we see Jesus doing this for us,where he lays aside his
privilege comes down to earth,essentially takes on the form of
a marginalized human being,right? Like a colonized Jewish
Palestinian man, a refugee, avictim of state violence,
ultimately, and I think that wasvery paradigm shattering for me
in understanding Christianadvocacy, because the Christian
(07:55):
advocacy that I was exposed toin the Western Church was more
advocating for our rights,advocating for school prayer, 10
Commandments in schools, thatkind of thing, versus advocating
for the rights of our lessprivileged neighbors. And
ultimately, that is whatChristian Christian advocacy is.
Joshua Johnson (08:11):
One of the things you write about the very
beginning of your book is yousay that in white western
Christian spaces, you get askedthe question, What do you mean
by justice? A lot, but you don'tin other spaces and spaces
around the world, in the globalsouth and the rest of the
church. Why do you think thatwhite Western Christians are
asking about the definition ofjustice? What are they wrestling
(08:35):
with and struggling with?
Joash Thomas (08:36):
Yeah, Joshua, I'm so glad you asked that question,
because this at its core, Ithink, is core thesis of my
book, it's that colonizationwasn't just bad for the Global
South, it wasn't just bad for myfamily my ancestors. It was also
bad for the Western Church,because it shaped us to resist
justice for our mostmarginalized neighbors in our
own context, here in the West,and injustice isn't just bad for
(09:00):
the oppressed, it's also bad forthe oppressor. It inflicts
things upon their humanity thatthey were never meant to bear as
the oppressors. But it's alsobad for those on the side of the
oppressors, like the WesternChurch. And so it wasn't just
the Roman Catholic Church. Wasthe Church of England, the Dutch
Reformed Church, SouthernBaptist southern Presbyterians,
participating in this colonialproject of extracting wealth and
(09:22):
resources from the Global South,right? And so, so that's that's
something that I do in thediagnosis section of the book.
But most of this book isactually a hopeful prognosis.
It's where do we go from here,right? So thankfully, there's
been a lot of good diagnosingwork being done that has been
done over the past few years,but I really appreciated my
publisher, Brazos, challengingme to write more of a hopeful
(09:45):
prognosis book, because there'snot much work and and I think
the way forward starts withacknowledging that we can change
the past, but we can be faithfulin our present context today,
right? So same is true also formy St Thomas. Heritage, because,
as I mentioned in the book, mySt Thomas, Indian Christian
ancestors have blind spots intheir theology and Praxis too.
(10:07):
They participated in the casteoppression of our lower caste
neighbors, until the birth ofthe Pentecostal movement,
started by my ancestors, fivegenerations ago in southern
India. And so again, we can'tchange the past, but we can be
faithful at the present.
Joshua Johnson (10:21):
So you think about colonization, and that's
actually had harm, both to theones that were being colonized
and to the colonizersthemselves, because they've
taken on a different mindset andthe conception of Jesus that is
not the Jesus we actually findin the Gospels. In my circles,
as a mission leader and doingmissions and training
(10:42):
missionaries, the easy thing forpeople to conceptualize is
contextualizing the gospelmessage to people that they're
going to go to within their ownculture and what it looks like
for them so that they couldstart to understand it. What
they don't understand and don'tget is the decontextualization
that they need to do withintheir own faith, so that we're
(11:04):
not presenting Jesus that ourown conception of Jesus that is
not actually presented in theGospels. So you talk about
decolonization work. It's thesame thing for missionaries as
they need to decontextualizewhere they came from. What does
that look like? How do werecognize our blind spots? How
do we start to lift the veil ofwhat we have started to take on?
(11:27):
Because I think this is one ofthe most difficult things to do,
is to analyze ourselves and whatwe have gone through, the things
we have taken on. What are somethings that you have found in
your own journey that helped youdo this type of work.
Joash Thomas (11:44):
Yeah, that's so good. And I love that you
brought in missions, because Ithink we should wrestle with
that as a church, right? Becausewe are called to proclaim the
goodness of the good news ofJesus. So what does it look like
for us to do that decolonizeways that care for the body as
well as the soul, and not incolonialistic ways that just
seek to extract and only preacha partial gospel that focuses on
(12:08):
souls. Yeah, I think for me,I've learned so much at the feet
of survivors, but also globalsouth church leaders. So I'll
share the story. I have afriend, dear friend, who
missionary from India to theTamil part of Sri Lanka, and he
was telling me that the Tamiland really all of Sri Lanka,
(12:30):
there's an indigenous peoplegroup, the original inhabitants
of the land, right? It's funny,because both the Tamils and the
Sinhalese are not and they'refighting over the land, but
you've got the originalindigenous inhabitants of the
land, still there with theirindigenous ways of understanding
the divine, the Creator God,right? And what's interesting is
they kind of have this thingwhere they look out to the sun
(12:54):
and sing songs of lament. Andso, you know, he really spent a
lot of time observing them inthat context. And then he
ultimately went and he askedthem, hey, like, Tell me more.
As you built a relationship withthem, why are you doing what you
do? And they said, Well, youknow, we have this story in our
religion and our faith, that theCreator is going to reveal his
(13:16):
Son to us and that there's goingto be a star that points us to
the location of his birth,right? You know, where this is
going the and so my friend islike, Oh my goodness. Like, this
is huge. Like we, you know, wejust need to connect with them
there, like God has alreadyrevealed Himself to them. And so
he goes to local churches, localTamil churches in the region,
(13:39):
who've been planted, supportedby missionary efforts. And he
tells them, hey, we don't needto start all the way in Genesis
one. We can just meet them wherethey just like God and Jesus
have met them where they are,and talk about the Nativity. And
the response of those churcheswas, no, no, no, we can't do
that. We've been trained tostart from Genesis one. We have
to not even Genesis one, Genesisthree, the fall we have to
(14:02):
start. And so I think that's anexample of, you know, just the
decolonization work that needsto take place in the missions
world around the world, wherewe're not coming in with one
size fits all, cookie cuttersolutions packaged from the
West, but we're coming with aposture of curiosity, of
(14:23):
generosity, of mutuality, ofhumbling ourselves, the way
Jesus does. And again, we'relooking at Mission not as a soul
salvation project, but as aproject to enhance and make
known the shalom and peace andjustice of God on earth as it is
in heaven. And I think weabsolutely need to retrieve what
(14:44):
colonialism has also done to thechurch and missions.
Joshua Johnson (14:48):
Well, as Jesus rolled out the scroll of Isaiah
in Luke chapter four, his firstreally sermon, saying announcing
his ministry, it seems all aboutjustice, goodness, the. Poor.
He's laying this out. That'sJesus saying, this has been
fulfilled. This is what I'm hereto do. How does he go about
(15:08):
doing that? Then you talkedabout not just a cookie cutter,
not one size fits all. You talkabout curiosity and really
realize where people are comingfrom. So we see the justice of
Jesus being central to hisministry from the very beginning
in Luke chapter four, unpackJesus and His justice and what
it looks like in his ownministry, so that we could start
(15:31):
to embody that today.
Joash Thomas (15:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, so I think it'simportant to see the way Jesus
lives his life. You know, Ithink so much in the Western
Church, what we do these days iswe just want Jesus to be born
and then we want him to diecrucified as a penal
substitution, or atonement, orwhatever theory of atonement you
buy into. We just want him todie right and then sure, be
(15:54):
raised again to life. But we'renot. We've completely ignored 33
years of his life on earth, Hislife teachings, ministry, right?
And so the way Jesus lives hislife is so interesting, right?
Like the way he relates to womenin that culture is so counter
cultural, and so advanced forthat time and that context, you
(16:14):
know, even having femaledisciples sit at his feet, learn
from him like that was just nota thing among rabbis in Jesus's
day, but then also the way Jesusinteracted with the untouchables
in his context, right, peoplewith leprosy, people who were
sick and disabled and lookeddown upon. And there's just the
(16:37):
spiritual stigma to those peoplelike God drew closer to those
people through Jesus and and soI love that you brought Luke,
chapter four, verse 18, whereJesus says, The Spirit of the
Lord is upon me to preach goodnews to the poor, to set the
captive free. Set Free theoppressed. Proclaim Liberty.
Will proclaim, you know, yet, togive sight to those blinded by
(17:00):
the dungeons, right? And thenyou see him do that, and the
rest of the Gospel of Luke yousee him proclaim those things.
He's healing sick people. He'sfeeding the hungry. He's
breaking all these social normsof Empire and the cultural
context that ultimately got himcrucified. But then the
beautiful thing is, after Jesusascends into heaven, you see,
(17:22):
the early church do that in Actsthe sequel, and they do those
things that they learned fromJesus to do as well. So you
know, the good news of Jesus, Iargue throughout the book, is
it's not good news unless it'sfirst and foremost good news to
people who are poor andoppressed. It has to be good
news. It has to be actualized asgood news to them. Only then
(17:43):
really would it feel like goodnews to the rest of us.
Joshua Johnson (17:48):
I think that's one of the problems. Is that,
you know, it is good news forthe poor, it is good news for
the oppressed. And when you livein a powerful Western world,
which does have a lot of powerand money and authority within
the world to be able to shapesome of those things. You're
seeing something a little bitdifferent. People are being
(18:09):
pressed against theircomfortable lives. And saying
the Gospels may not just be forstaying comfortable in your nice
little life, but it's actuallyfor the poor and the
marginalized and the ones thatare being oppressed, and we're
actually going to see some newlife through them, how to
navigate living in the empireand following Jesus and caring
(18:32):
for the oppressed.
Joash Thomas (18:34):
That's such a good question. You know, just today,
I got into a minor Twitterskirmish, not one of the major
ones, a minor Twitter skirmishwith another theologian in the
States, in DC, actuallydefending the actions of ice,
right? Defending essentially avideo of someone being subdued
(18:54):
and deported just because theyhad entered the US illegally. If
you and you almost had thisempire centric lens of, oh, we
need to protect law and order. Ithink as the church, we really
need to move away from thatempire centric lens to a Jesus
centered lens among theoppressed. So this is where I
(19:15):
think Catholic social teachingcan really be helpful in the
evangelical church, especiallyspecifically this doctrine of
God's preferential option forpeople who are poor and
oppressed. I talk about this inthe book, but you know, God does
have a preferential option forpeople who are poor and
oppressed. We see that allthroughout Scripture. We see
(19:37):
that in the life of Jesus, theearly church as well. And you
know, what's beautiful aboutthat is that this doesn't mean
that God doesn't love the richand the powerful. He loves the
rich and the powerful. Thisdoesn't mean that people who are
poor and oppressed areontologically better than people
who are rich and powerful. Itdoesn't mean that either. What
it does mean is that thepowerful have money and wealth
(19:59):
and power. Are on their side,the poor and oppressed have no
one on their side. So God showsup for the poor and the
oppressed. And if God has apreferential option for people
who are poor and oppressed, thenso should the church. So should
our theology, so should ourbudgets, so should the way we do
community and who we include atour table and the churches at
(20:20):
Jesus' staple, right? And so Ithink we really need to move
away from the colonial, shapedEmpire lens of church that we
have today, to retrieving thegospel as good news for the poor
and the oppressed and helpingactualize that and experiencing
that for ourselves as peoplewith power and privilege. So I
often tell this to people, don'tassume that I come from a slum
(20:44):
part of Mumbai just because Iwas born and raised in actually
come from a very wealthy familywith a lot of privilege,
probably more privilege thanmost of you listeners, I drive
her a maid and a cook growingup, right? And the Americans get
to say that, but again, like youinherit privilege, you don't get
to change that, but what you doget to do is you do get to
decide how you steward what youfind yourself entrusted with
(21:07):
today. And I think that's myinvitation for the Western
Church
Joshua Johnson (21:10):
in India. How has the church helped reach
across the caste system anddifferent castes? Has it been
able to do any of that work? Andis Is it working?
Joash Thomas (21:23):
I think there's been encouraging work that's
being done has been done. I alsoget the sense that in many ways,
it has been quite segregatedwithin the Indian church, where,
just the way in which we wantmulti ethnic churches here in
the West, I think the Indianchurch should and is aspiring to
(21:43):
churches made up of people fromacross the caste stratosphere.
But obviously that's easier saidthan done. The one thing that
does happen with you know,people who become Christians in
that context is legally, theyget to exit the caste system.
But socially, culturally,there's still stigma, especially
(22:04):
if you're coming from overcastgroups. But I think what's
really beautiful about Indianchurch history that I find you
know, I often say this for theWestern Church as well. Jesus
once told His disciples, if youdon't praise me, the rocks will
cry out. And I think what's beenhappening in the western church
over the past few years, withsociety and culture crying out
(22:27):
for justice, is the rocks cryingout because the church has had
the opportunity to show up forso long. Instead of showing up,
we've been the last to show up,or been slow to show up, and so
if we don't praise God, therocks will cry out. And that's
why society and culture now isyearning for justice in the ways
that they know best, right? Andhere's an opportunity for the
(22:49):
church to be who we were alwaysmeant to be. So you know same
for the Indian context right nowyou've got, or historically,
rather, so I share this in thesermon that I just did this past
Sunday. But of the first 18centuries of my St Thomas,
Christian ancestors in India,lower caste people, were kept
(23:10):
out from church. They were keptout from receiving the
sacraments, from receivingJesus, really, at Jesus's table.
It wasn't until Westernmissionaries come in and really,
you know, not to give too muchcredit to the Western
missionaries, I think the creditgoes to the Dalit people, the
lower caste people. They werethe ones who enlightened the
Western missionaries and said,here's our plight. We want to
(23:33):
receive Jesus. We know peoplewho want to encounter Jesus, but
we're kept away from it becauseof these caste structures within
the church. And then you had theBritish missionaries, the
Anglican CMS missionaries,really interceding on behalf of
lower caste communities andbeing good advocates for them.
That leads to the inclusion. Sosome of that happened, but what
also happened at the same timewas a Pentecostal revival,
(23:56):
essentially a revival of theHoly Spirit in the late 1800s
early 1900s that my ancestors,five generations ago, got to
participate and be a part of.
And that led to the birth of anindigenous church denomination
in India, still called as theIndian Pentecostal church. So
it's not foreign funded, it'sindigenous, locally supported,
local planted, but but it was awork of the Spirit. No human
(24:20):
being could take the credit forthat, and that actually led, for
the very first time, theinclusion of lower caste
neighbors in the church, whichalso led reforms in the Indian
Orthodox Church, the MarthomaChurch, the more mainline,
Catholic, Orthodox Protestantchurches within the St Thomas
(24:40):
branch, who now, because you'vegot the Pentecostal movement
appealing to lower caste, uhHindus, we better take action
too. So it's beautiful to seethe hand of the spirit
throughout human history in thattoo.
Joshua Johnson (24:54):
So you see the spirits, and there's a lot of
people who, like you're sayingin the Western Church. Now the
rocks are cool. Crying out.
We're seeing people yearning forjustice. We're seeing justice
being carried out in a myriad ofways, different ways. How do we
start to say, okay, Jesus, oneof his core tenants, is justice.
So if I even say Jesus isjustice, like we're gonna go
(25:16):
after that and we follow theways of Jesus, you're getting
justice. That's what's going tohappen if you follow the ways of
Jesus. And so how do we takehold of the justice that Jesus
wants, like Jesus being justice,and not let justice issues take
front and center, but Jesus andthose justice issues will then
(25:39):
actually be taken care of. So weactually have to recognize the
issues, but not just focusentirely on them. We have to
bring Jesus in as well. How dowe bring Jesus in and not just
put his name on it and not justsprinkle a little Jesus dust on
it to call it Christian?
Joash Thomas (25:57):
Yeah, that's such a good point. I mean, I often
say this to Western Christiansin my sermon, my sermons, but
there's this posture that wesometimes have, that I think is
a very colonialistic posture ofwe have to bring Jesus with us
to the margins, but Jesus isalready present in the margins,
and that's where I encounteredJesus. That's where so many
(26:20):
leaders in the church haveencountered Jesus throughout
history. Jesus is on themargins. His real presence is on
the margins if we have the eyesto see him there, if we have the
eyes to encounter him there. SoI think we need to go to the
margins with this posture of,how can we see Jesus already at
work here, and how can wepartner with Jesus already at
(26:44):
work on the margins right now?
And the best people to educateus on that will always be the
church closest to the margins.
Because, believe it or not,there are members of the global
church working all throughoutthe world on the margins,
working in the margins, and theycan be our guides. They can be,
you know, just these helpfulguides for us on the margins, to
(27:05):
see Jesus there. See Jesus atwork there. I think it's
important number one, to havethat posture. But then the other
thing I'd say is we often alsohave this posture, shaped by,
really by our capitalisticcontext of we need to be
successful in everything we doas the church, right? But Jesus
doesn't call us to success. Hecalls us to faithfulness, right?
(27:28):
So I think it's worth all of usasking ourselves, what does
faithfulness look like for mewhen it comes to proclaiming the
gospel of Christ throughjustice, and what does
faithfulness require from me,and what will it cost me to be
faithful in this area as a Jesusfollower so and then the other
thing I'd say is, I tell this toadvocates seeking justice within
(27:52):
the church all the time, but thereality of injustice is so heavy
and so dark that we can't dothese things on our own. We'd be
foolish to think we can takethese evils on on our own
strength. We need divinestrength. We need that second
wind, and that only comes frombeing rooted in the spirit and
walking with Jesus. And we oweit to our marginalized neighbors
(28:15):
to not burn out, to be in thisfor the long haul. So that's
also where Jesus comes in andgiving us the strength to
sustain this work, if we stayconnected and rooted in him. You
know,
Joshua Johnson (28:25):
you said that we often think that we need to be
successful, but Jesus calls us afaithfulness and not success. So
if you're thinking of a nonprofit, Justice oriented
organization, one of the thingsthat they need to do is they
need to raise funds. They need afundraise. You've been involved
with fundraising, you know, itis a problem, but we often
(28:47):
think, as organizations, wethink that people will be
attracted to success, so we haveto make sure that we're telling
everybody we're very successful.
So is there a way to reorientthe body of Christ who are
giving to organizations as we'refundraising say it's more about
faithfulness and less aboutsuccess. How do we do that as
organizations so that we can notperpetuate the same thing that
(29:12):
we have actually are trying togo against, but we're thinking,
hey, we have to do this infundraising. So we're going to
do it this way. Can we shift?
Can we change? Is it get better?
Joash Thomas (29:26):
I love that you've asked this question, Joshua,
because I've been doingfundraising work, and, you know,
justice, Christian nonprofitspace for the past decade now,
and initially, as I started inthe world of that, I wouldn't
say that I was beingtransactional, but I was
probably being moretransactional than I realized
(29:48):
back then, with seeing peoplefor their net worth and what
they can bring to the table andall that. And I think even
Christian non profits can runguilty of that at times, if
we're. Not careful, even on ourbest days, but as I've stepped
into the work of the church, asI found hope in the church, and
become a church man, and youknow, been ordained and all that
(30:10):
almost feels like the spiritshelped me develop this pastoral
heart for donors, where I seethem giving as an act of
discipleship on their part, andI think Christian justice
organizations then get to walkalongside these donors in their
discipleship journey with Jesus.
Get to steward not just theirphysical resources, but also
their spiritual wholeness inthis experience. And you know,
(30:34):
so I've led vision trips that Italk about in the book. I've led
vision trips of church leadersand really wealthy, wealthy
Western Christians, you know, toglobal south context, and I've
seen what that's done for them.
I've seen what that exposure hasdone for their faith, their walk
(30:54):
with Jesus, just their theirbroadening of their
understanding of the gospel. Ithink Christian organizations
prioritizing justice have this.
Churches too, by the way, havethis responsibility of exposing
their people to Jesus on themargins and seeing that
transform people's lives, yeah,in very spiritual, pastoral, non
transactional ways. I thinksometimes there can also be a
(31:18):
bit of a challenge with that,because people with wealth and
power sometimes have very fixednotions of how the gospel is, or
how the you know, how the worldoperates, and things like that.
And so in many ways, we're we'realso this journey of
discipleship, taking our donorson a journey with us. Of hey,
(31:38):
you may start here one day, butjust be open to where the Lord
leads you. Just be open to whatbarriers get broken down in your
own heart, and walk with them inpastoral ways as they're
processing that. And that, tome, has been one of the best
things that I've gotten to do inthe nonprofit space.
Joshua Johnson (31:56):
That's really cool. What are some
misconceptions of justice withinthe Western Church, and how can
we redefine it through Jesus?
Joash Thomas (32:07):
Yeah, that's a great, great question. So I
think one of the misconceptionsabout justice is that it is not
a Christian concept, that it isa political concept, or a
Marxist concept or a wokeconcept, right? And of course,
it can feel that way if you'vebeen conditioned not see justice
(32:27):
as part of the gospel. Myconditioning was different in
the global south evangelicalchurch, but, but that is not the
conditioning that most WesternChristians have, so there's
grace for that. But I think whatI try to do throughout the book
is I don't just point people toChristians in the world,
churches in the world right now,that prioritize justice. I also
point to Christians throughoutthe Christian tradition,
(32:49):
throughout history, churchhistory, that have prioritized
and so, of course, we see thatall throughout the Bible, but we
see it in the early church. Wesee it in the early church,
fathers and mothers, how theyprioritize justice. We see it
among reformation figures andhow they prioritize justice. So
even the definition of justicethat I offer in this book is a
(33:10):
Christian definition of it'sAugustine's definition of
justice, which is justice isgiving to each person their due,
which is basically justice isgiving to each person the good
things that God intended forthem. So what's injustice? Then?
Injustice is taking away thatfullness of life that Jesus
always intended for us, that Godalways intended for us. So I
(33:31):
would say that's the topmisconception about justice in
the Christian world. I thinkthere would be other ones as
well. Like you know, justice isa worthy pursuit, but still not
as important as evangelism ordiscipleship, and there's that
separation of justice from thegospel in that way, and that's
(33:53):
also something I push back onand saying, No, this actually
isn't how the global church hashistorically understood justice,
or still understands justice tothis day. We have this
understanding of it because welearned about the gospel from
these traditions that enslavedpeople and participated in
colonization that shaped us. Butlet's challenge that and learn
(34:15):
from the rest of the globalchurch throughout time in
history.
Joshua Johnson (34:18):
So then I think that's part of I think in the
Western Church, if you thinkgospel is just proclamation of a
message and hopefully have someascent to belief, and that's
where the gospel is, yeah, Jesuscame onto the scene and he says,
I'm preaching the gospel of thekingdom of God. There was a
gospel message right there, butit wasn't the gospel of get out
(34:39):
of hell free card and going toheaven, right? It was that. It
was the gospel of good news forthe poor and the marginalized,
the oppressed and for everyone.
So can you just then tell methen help redefine what the
gospel is and what's a holisticview of the Gospel for us to to
have in front of
Joash Thomas (34:58):
us? Absolutely yes. So this is very important.
I say this early on in the book,but I center my definition of
the gospel on Jesus's definitionof the gospel, which is found
Luke, chapter four, verse 18,where Jesus says, you know,
Spirit of the Lord is upon me topreach good news to the poor, to
set the captive free, set freethe oppressed. He says all these
(35:19):
things, I think for many of uswho have been conditioned by the
Western Church, we have beenconditioned to believe that all
of these things are true, butthey're mostly spiritual and not
physical. And that's what I pushback against in this book, where
I say that the gospel is bothphysical and spiritual. It's
both. It's both and it's noteither or the gospel is physical
(35:43):
and spiritual, because God makesHimself known through the
physical. He teaches us thesespiritual truths about himself
through the physical, right? So,for example, the incarnation of
Christ was a physical eventwhich had spiritual
ramifications, the death andresurrection of Christ or
physical events with spiritualimplications, right? So the good
(36:05):
news of Jesus is both physicaland spiritual, and if we don't
hold both together, I think wecan run into the risk, into the
risk of Gnosticism, which isthis early church heresy of you
know, the gospel is purelyspiritual and doesn't have
anything to say to the physical.
And I think when we recover thatholistic version of the Gospel,
(36:25):
the original version of thegospel, we can then go to our
poor and oppressed neighbors andproclaim the fullness of it
verbally and through our deeds,and then the gospel would be
experienced as good news tothem. But the reason why hasn't
been the case so much in theWestern Church is because the
Western Church that participatedin the colonial project found it
(36:47):
advantageous to tell enslavedand colonized people Jesus cares
more about the salvation of yoursoul than the freedom and well
being of your human body, right?
And of course, historicallybenefited us to say that to our
oppressed neighbors. But today,I think we must come to terms
(37:07):
with that and say no, this iswhy we have such an anemic
understanding of the gospel. Andthe gospel has always been both
physical and spiritual.
Joshua Johnson (37:14):
I mean, if you look and let's go back into Luke
chapter four, yeah. I mean, welike this. This passage, Isaiah
61 passage, that's right, yeah,but he talks about the
proclaiming the year of theLord's favor. That's the last
thing he says before he rolls upthe scroll and says, it's now
been fulfilled in your hearing,right here. And so proclaiming
the year of the Lord's favor isa jubilee passage, and Jubilee
(37:37):
itself is like forgiving all thedebts of like, giving back to
everybody everything that theyowe, like it is a re leveling of
the playing field. And so Idon't think we, when I read
that, I don't think about that.
What is this Jubilee concept,and how does that help us
realize what Jesus is reallytrying to get at when it comes
(38:01):
to justice.
Joash Thomas (38:04):
It's a scary concept. It scares people in the
Western Church even today,right? So, a few years ago, when
there was all this discussionaround student loan debt
forgiveness, I tweeted a verytongue in cheek tweet, hey, debt
forgiveness is actuallybiblical. You know, Jubilee. Of
course, there's more nuance. Butyou know Twitter, who comes
(38:25):
there for nuance anyway? And youknow, as I tweeted, that the
pushback was vicious. It waspeople, you know, self
proclaimed Christians who werejust like, No, no. This is
economic distribution. This isMarxism, and it's like, no,
like, let's talk about this in aChristian way. Let's put these
political systems that cameabout hundreds of years later
(38:48):
aside and talk about whatJubilee is, what Jesus says,
what Isaiah says. And I thinkit's this concept of equity, at
the end of the day, it's thisconcept of the low being raised
up, like Mary sings in her songin the Magnificat, in Luke
chapter two. And so it's thisnew world that God is ushering
(39:11):
in through the Holy Spirit,where everything is made new,
where chains are broken, theoppressed are set free, where
the humble are raised, wherethose who exalt themselves are
humble too, and everything is asit should be on earth as it is
in heaven. And this newcreation, this new world, can be
scary to us, and that's why, youknow, the people of biblical
(39:34):
Israel also neglected teachingsof Jubilee. But this has always
been God's desire for us, so weeither get on board or we get
out of the way.
Joshua Johnson (39:43):
We see a lot of injustice around the world, and
in today's age, we get all ofthe news feed at us at once, so
we know all of the injusticethat's happening all over the
world, and we're incensed, andwe enraged, and we want to say
something about it, but we.
Often, then forgets that wecould actually start with our
own community, and there'speople next to us that requires
(40:04):
justice and we could care. So ifyou have a local Community of
Christ followers that want tomake an impact within their
community and see justice, takecenter stage and see the justice
of Jesus. Takes center stage.
What are some things that alocal community can do for their
(40:24):
own local community to see thistake
Joash Thomas (40:27):
place? Yeah, such a great question. I talk about
this at length in the finalsection of my book, as you know,
which is the final threechapters. And I tell Western
Christians that three of themost effective things that we
can do with what privilege wehave here in the West is pray,
partner advocate. So write achapter on prayer. I talk about
(40:51):
how our prayer should ultimatelyform us to prioritize justice,
especially if we pray the wordsthat Jesus taught us to pray,
which is the Lord's Prayer, youknow, give us this day our daily
bread, and the Lord's Prayer isso rich and justice. And I
actually go full exit Jesus onthat in that context. And I
break it down, and I explain howthis connects to justice. In the
book, I also talk about prayingwith our marginalized neighbors,
(41:15):
not just praying for them, butactually getting in community
with pastors on the margins andpraying with our marginalized
neighbors in that way, on thepartnering side, living side. I
talk about generosity throughoutthe book, and I don't just do
this because I'm someone who'sworked on the fundraising side
of global justice, but I also doit because it's good for us.
(41:37):
I've seen how it's good fordonors in the West to partner
with God on the margins bygiving away what they don't need
to see life flourish aroundthem. And so I break that down,
and also we're the beneficiariesof so much here in the West,
we're the beneficiaries ofcolonization. So in the book, I
say that I'm both a child ofcolonization and a beneficiary
(42:00):
of colonization. Became abeneficiary the day I moved to
North America and started livingon stolen land with stolen
resources. And so again, wecan't change the past, but we
can faithfully steward that thepresence through giving and
partnering. And then I also talkabout advocacy, probably one of
the most fun chapters for me towrite, just from my experience
leading advocacy efforts atChristian organizations and
(42:24):
seeing everyday Christians speaktruth to power on behalf of
their oppressed neighbors andso. So yeah, those are three
things that I think we can do,and I hope the details in the
book inspire fresh ideas of thechurch.
Joshua Johnson (42:35):
So then, what does advocacy look like,
practically? How can we advocatewell for people on the margins,
and not make it about us, butmake it about people on the
margins.
Joash Thomas (42:48):
So good. Yeah. I mean, I would start right there,
Joshua. I would start with notmaking it about us, making it
about people on the margins,right? Because, again, that's
what Jesus does for us, right?
He prioritizes our needs overhis own right. And of course,
that can be done in unhealthyways too. But I think God is
ultimately self sacrificing,self giving. So I would say
(43:09):
advocacy is speaking truth topower on behalf of people who
are poor and oppressed. Sothroughout the section on
advocacy, I actually call us asthe Western Church, to be
politically agnostic, becausehere's the thing, right,
political parties of every sidewant to co opt the voice of the
(43:31):
church. They want to tokenizethe church. They want to have a
faith Advisory Council. I mean,both parties do this right, and
they want to use them for theirpurposes, for the purposes of
Empire, but we, as people whoserve the God of the oppressed,
(43:52):
we have a responsibility toengage with these political
powers, not on behalf ofourselves and our needs, but on
behalf of those with lesserprivilege than us, right of our
marginalized neighbors. So So Iactually call us to be
politically agnostic in thiswhere I say we're politically
agnostic, except on behalf ofour marginalized neighbors and
(44:15):
except on behalf of all ourmarginalized neighbors. So
again, some political partieschoose the rights of some
marginalized people groups, andthey exclude the rights of other
marginalized people. So you'reeither for the unborn or you're
against women, just as binary.
But I think as people of thechurch, people of God, Jesus
(44:38):
followers, I think we're calledto be politically agnostic to
all those things, and stand forthe human flourishing and
creation, flourishing of all ofcreation, and do it as best as
we can, as faithfully as we can,even if there's not much success
attached to it,
Joshua Johnson (44:53):
you just breezed by it, but you're talking about
how Jesus was for women and thathe had disciples sit. As feet.
So you think about the passageof Mary and Martha, there is
very few people that read thatthat see sitting at the feet of
Jesus is actually being adisciple of Jesus. How can we?
(45:13):
They usually see it as resting,like, I'm just gonna rest here.
Somebody is working really hard.
You actually abide with Jesusand rest and and you don't have
to do, you know, all the work,but just abide with Jesus, but
it's actually being moresubversive than that. So how do
we know we're reading, well, theBible? How do we know that we're
(45:34):
actually seeing things like thatthat are more subversive and
radical and revolutionary thanwe even think
Joash Thomas (45:43):
that's such a good question. I think this is why
it's important for us to readthrough the lens of of course,
early church fathers and motherswho were on the margins for the
first 500 years, but also readthrough the lens of our
marginalized neighbors today,right? So I have that
perspective, because femaleacademics and scholars pointed
(46:07):
that out to me and said, Yeah,beautiful. That is, you know how
it feels like for us to seewomen being treated as property
throughout Scripture, but thenJesus comes along and does this,
and, you know, just things likethat. So I think there's beauty
in putting ourselves in theshoes of people who would
interpret Scripture differentlyand ask them, Hey, how do you
(46:27):
interpret this text? What doesthis mean to you? What does
Jesus doing this mean to you inyour context today? And then
learning from the beauty andtheir perspectives there, yeah,
and I think there's also readingpeople in a way that's connected
with church history right beforethe Reformation Eve. So not
(46:49):
ignoring the interpretation workthat's been done in the medieval
era and the early church era,but learning from that too, and
then learning from the globalchurch, right? Like learning
from our Orthodox brothers,sisters, siblings, like, how do
they read Scripture? How do theyinterpret Scripture in their
context, learning from ourCatholic siblings in Christ, you
(47:12):
know. And again, you don't haveto agree with everything that a
liberation theologian or afeminist theologian or an LGBTQ
theologian even the saying, buthear 'em out. You know, read
their perspectives. ThinkCritically, challenge, challenge
our thinking, because at the endof the day, we have been shaped
(47:33):
so much by slaveholdertheologians like Jonathan
Edwards and, you know, GeorgeWhitfield and others, who have
shaped so much of our theology,North American church. So if we
can read slaveholder theologianslike Edwards and the Trinity,
then we can absolutely readfeminist theologians, liberation
theologians. So read broadly andlet the Spirit shape our
(47:54):
conscience.
Joshua Johnson (47:55):
That's good. If you could talk to people who
would pick up the justice ofJesus your debut book, which is
fantastic. Really want a lot ofpeople to read it. It's really,
really good, well done. Whathope do you have for this book?
What would you like to getpeople
Joash Thomas (48:10):
Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. I mean, really, my
hope is, my hope is just to getus thinking better. I'm not
expecting people to agree withme on everything, but I just
want us to think. You don't haveto think like me, but just
think. And I also want tointroduce us to good teachers on
the margins who can teach usabout Jesus, who sought justice
(48:35):
in their context and paid theprice for it, and we can learn
things from them. So really, forme, even as I preach about
faithfulness over success, I tryto practice that myself and
saying, I don't know howsuccessful this book will be,
but I am content in havingwritten what I think is a
quality book from a uniqueperspective in the North
(48:57):
American church, from a globalchurch, global south perspective
and an ecumenical perspective,and also an ancient Christian
perspective, where I share theperspective of my St Thomas
Indian Christian ancestors andso, yeah, so my hope is that
this just takes down thestrongholds for us that keep us
from prioritizing justice forour marginalized neighbors, and
(49:19):
that this book helps us make thegospel, reimagine the gospel as
good news for people who arepoor and oppressed in the first
place.
Joshua Johnson (49:28):
If you go back your 21 year old self, Josh,
what advice would you give?
Joash Thomas (49:33):
Oh, yeah, I would say. I would say what I'd say to
myself today. You may think youknow everything, but you really
know nothing, and learn frompeople who have less power and
privilege than you. Humbleyourself under God's mighty hand
in that way, to sit among theoppressed and and be shaped by
(49:56):
their perspectives. I would alsosay, grow out your hair. Hair
and your beard quicker. I guess
Joshua Johnson (50:04):
it looks better that way. It looks better that
way. That's great. Got anythingyou've been reading or watching
lately you could recommend?
Joash Thomas (50:11):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've been reading two, two
dear friends lately, both whiteAmerican men. So, you know, I do
read white American men too.
Actually, one of them isCanadian, so, yeah, so Bradley
jerzak, who's becoming a dearfriend as a Canadian scholar
writing about biblicalreinterpretation, like, how do
we interpret the Bible inhealing ways? And then another
(50:34):
friend who's written anexcellent book on that is Zach
Lambert, who wrote better waysto read the Bible. Highly
recommend that book, book that'salso just come out, but the same
publisher, Brazos press, yeah.
And then so I've ADHD, I'mreading about 20 books at the
same time. You open this can ofworms here, Joshua but, but I'm
(50:58):
also reading munter shocks newbook. He's a Palestinian
Liberation theologian. It'scalled Christ and the rubble.
Thank you, Christ and the rebel.
That's exactly it. Yes, I'm, youknow, trying to read broadly and
and be shaped by it even today.
Excellent.
Joshua Johnson (51:16):
Great recommendations. Well done. So,
good job. The justice of Jesuswill be out the end of
September. Everywhere books aresold, if this comes out a week
early, which it might. So I didhear that you might have some
like a recipe, that's right,that you're giving out for
everybody pre orders, like somebutter chicken. Is that? What
(51:40):
was that? What I
Joash Thomas (51:40):
hear, yes, I mean, I wish I could cook butter
chicken for everyone, but what Ican do is I can share the
recipe, so I've got the spicybutter chicken that I make and
is a huge hit with family andfriends. But yeah, as a way to
celebrate a part of my god givenidentity around the book, as I
bring my full self partneredwith my publisher. So if you go
(52:03):
to Baker, book house and buy, Ithink it's like the first 300
copies, or something like thatlimited edition, you can get
your printed spicy butterchicken recipe in the mail with
your book. If you buy it fromanywhere else, just message me
on social media or anywhere, andI'll give you the digital copy
of that recipe as well, becausegood Indian food was always
(52:25):
meant to be shared, so it's mylittle way of doing that.
Joshua Johnson (52:29):
Hey, man, is there anywhere that you'd like
to point people to just toconnect with you?
Joash Thomas (52:33):
Yeah, so my social media handles are all at Joe,
Ash P Thomas, so I'm probablymost active on Instagram these
days. And then I've got a substack called Jesus justice and
Joash, I do a weekly justice inthe lectionary reflections, you
know, email that goes outbasically taking the lectionary
scripture readings and seeingjustice themes, and they're
(52:57):
sharing that in community. So,yeah, do follow along my sub
stack, too, and yeah, and youknow, I'd love to connect with
folks part of your community.
The work of justice can oftenfeel very lonely and isolating,
but it doesn't have to be. Itwas all meant to be done in
communities, so that's my hope.
With all too
Joshua Johnson (53:16):
good. Well, just Joe ash, thank you so much for
this. This is a fantasticconversation around the justice
of Jesus. What does it look liketo decolonize our theology, our
faith, what we have brought onto ourselves in the Western
Church, so that we can see aglobal perspective and maybe
actually see perspectives ofthose on the margins, those in
the Global South, perspectivesof Jesus, and how Jesus actually
(53:40):
prioritize justice, how that wasone of his core tenants of who
he is and what he brought and sothank you as a fantastic
Conversation. Really enjoyedtalking to you.
Joash Thomas (53:49):
Thanks. Joshua, honored you.
Unknown (54:00):
You.
God does have a preferential option for people
(00:03):
who are poor and oppressed. Wesee that all throughout
Scripture. We see that in thelife of Jesus, the early church
as well. And you know, what'sbeautiful about that is that
this doesn't mean that Goddoesn't love the rich and the
powerful. He loves the rich andthe powerful. This doesn't mean
that people who are poor andoppressed are ontologically
better people who are rich andpowerful. It doesn't mean that
(00:24):
either. What it does mean isthat the powerful have money and
wealth and power on their side.
The poor and oppressed have noone on their side. So God shows
up for the poor and theoppressed and you ash,
Joshua Johnson (00:49):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. Today, Isit down with Joash P Thomas to
talk about the justice of Jesus.
Joash grew up in Mumbai in a StThomas Christian family. He
immigrated to the US as ateenager and is now in Canada as
a clergyman and working forjustice organizations. His
(01:14):
journey has been one ofdetangling Empire shaped faith
and reimagining the gospel astruly good news for the poor and
the oppressed. Our conversationmoves through some big themes,
how colonialism has harmed notonly the global south but also
the Western Church, whydecolonizing our own assumptions
is just as important ascontextualizing the gospel for
(01:34):
others, and how Jesus life andministry point us toward a
justice that is embodied,spiritual and physical all at
once. We talk about what itlooks like to advocate without
making it about us to see Christalready present in the margins
and to imagine a church shapedmore by faithfulness than by
success. This is a conversationabout recovering the gospel as
(01:56):
good news again, good news thatsets captives free, lifts up the
oppressed and calls us to followJesus with humility and courage.
So join us. Here is myconversation with Joash. P
Thomas, Joash, welcome toshifting culture. Thanks for
joining me. Excited to have you.
(02:16):
Yeah, thanks for having me. Whatan honor. I think your story can
help us situate ourselves inthis conversation, because I
think you've gone on a journeyof entangling different things
to your own faith and thendetangling things, and I think
that will actually probably helpall of us to figure out what
that looks like. I know you grewup in Mumbai, so what was that
(02:40):
like growing up, really, and howdid that shape your faith
through your you're actuallygrowing up in India with your
family and the history that youhave with your family?
Joash Thomas (02:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I was born and raised inMumbai, India to an Indian
Christian family, a St ThomasIndian Christian family. So my
family has been Christian fornearly 2000 years, going back to
the Apostle Thomas, who broughtus the gospel. So my ancestors
have been everything fromorthodox to Catholic to, you
know, Pentecostal, for the lastfive generations. So I have it
(03:14):
all in my DNA. So I think I'vegot a view of the church that's
very ecumenical because of this.
And also being raised in theglobal south Evangelical Church,
I've noticed that you do tend tobe more ecumenical and more
pluralistic than WesternChristians, especially Western
evangelicals. And so I'mgrateful for those values. Those
(03:36):
are two values that I bring outin the book as I talk about
retrieving justice in theWestern Church,
Joshua Johnson (03:41):
and so then, as you moved to the United States,
you immigrated into the US whenyou were 18, yeah, you ended up
going to university becoming apolitical consultant. How did
your time in the US as as animmigrant start to really shape
your faith? What did you absorbduring that time, what were the
(04:02):
top thinkings that you weresaying? Maybe I missed something
in India. Maybe there'ssomething here in America that
is good, that I need to actuallytake on. And then maybe some of
that stuff you realized maybe Ishouldn't have taken that on
right away when it came in,
Joash Thomas (04:17):
right, right? I mean, it was definitely a
journey. And looking back now, Ithink there were racial elements
to this journey for me as well.
So as a brown person of color,as an immigrant moving to the US
South, wanting to be as Americanas possible, so I assimilated
pretty hard. I tried to be aswhite evangelical American as I
could, which is how I think Iended up in Georgia Republican
(04:40):
politics, working as a politicalconsultant and lobbyist, and,
you know, as a Liberation andJustice theologian. Today, no
one would assume that of me, butthat has been my journey. And so
I know I still know people inthat world today. People are
elected officials even, and Iknow where they're coming from.
I know where their voters are.
Coming from, I help them domessaging to those voters and
(05:03):
so, so I have a lot of grace andempathy for that and that part
of my journey. But, but, youknow, a Yeah, like you said,
jumped in as a collegeRepublican. I was chairman of my
university Republican chapter,you know, I served on the boards
for the Georgia YoungRepublicans, the Atlanta Young
Republicans. I worked, you know,as the former governor of
(05:23):
Georgia's speechwriter and hisre election campaign. Worked for
Marco Rubio when he ran forpresident, right? I mean, so I
did all these things. I had allthese credentials, and I think
what really did it for me wasspending time on the margins,
ultimately, because that's whereI encountered Jesus, really, for
the first time. And you know, Ioften tell people that I looked
(05:44):
for Jesus in the halls of power.
I thought I'd find him there. Inever found him there. Found him
on the margins, the place that Ididn't expect to find him. And
that's what shaped me, workingin international development,
human rights. And you know, evenmy journey into the church as a
clergyman today, as an ordainedminister. You know, I tell
people still in the conservativepolitical world, you know, you
(06:05):
may think you're advocating forthe rights of some of our
marginalized neighbors, but thechurch is called to advocate for
the rights of all of ourmarginalized neighbors, and I
think I feel that heavily as aclergyman today.
Joshua Johnson (06:18):
So you said, found Jesus in the margins,
yeah, in the marginalized. Whatdid that look like for you,
tangibly? How did you find Jesusin the margins?
Joash Thomas (06:26):
Yeah, yeah. So I took a year off after
university. People told me I wascrazy. It was a presidential
election year, right? And 20152016 a little bit going on in
the US political world. Backthen, when I took a year off, I
went back to India, served withan anti trafficking
organization. It was deeplyformative for me, not just
(06:49):
seeing courage of survivors onthe margins, but also seeing the
courage of the local churchthere, and the ways in which
they prioritize justice andsocial action as an expression
of the gospel. You know, I thinkwhat was really paradigm
shattering for me wasspecifically seeing the courage
of the local church when theyhad targets in their backs,
(07:13):
when, you know, because thatcontext still is a persecuted
church context today, and theyhad every right to be advocating
for themselves, I would seeeveryday Christians and the
global south evangelical contexteven going out and advocating
for the rights of those withlesser privilege than them. And
for me, that brought me back toPhilippians chapter two, where
(07:34):
we see Jesus doing this for us,where he lays aside his
privilege comes down to earth,essentially takes on the form of
a marginalized human being,right? Like a colonized Jewish
Palestinian man, a refugee, avictim of state violence,
ultimately, and I think that wasvery paradigm shattering for me
in understanding Christianadvocacy, because the Christian
(07:55):
advocacy that I was exposed toin the Western Church was more
advocating for our rights,advocating for school prayer, 10
Commandments in schools, thatkind of thing, versus advocating
for the rights of our lessprivileged neighbors. And
ultimately, that is whatChristian Christian advocacy is.
Joshua Johnson (08:11):
One of the things you write about the very
beginning of your book is yousay that in white western
Christian spaces, you get askedthe question, What do you mean
by justice? A lot, but you don'tin other spaces and spaces
around the world, in the globalsouth and the rest of the
church. Why do you think thatwhite Western Christians are
asking about the definition ofjustice? What are they wrestling
(08:35):
with and struggling with?
Joash Thomas (08:36):
Yeah, Joshua, I'm so glad you asked that question,
because this at its core, Ithink, is core thesis of my
book, it's that colonizationwasn't just bad for the Global
South, it wasn't just bad for myfamily my ancestors. It was also
bad for the Western Church,because it shaped us to resist
justice for our mostmarginalized neighbors in our
own context, here in the West,and injustice isn't just bad for
(09:00):
the oppressed, it's also bad forthe oppressor. It inflicts
things upon their humanity thatthey were never meant to bear as
the oppressors. But it's alsobad for those on the side of the
oppressors, like the WesternChurch. And so it wasn't just
the Roman Catholic Church. Wasthe Church of England, the Dutch
Reformed Church, SouthernBaptist southern Presbyterians,
participating in this colonialproject of extracting wealth and
(09:22):
resources from the Global South,right? And so, so that's that's
something that I do in thediagnosis section of the book.
But most of this book isactually a hopeful prognosis.
It's where do we go from here,right? So thankfully, there's
been a lot of good diagnosingwork being done that has been
done over the past few years,but I really appreciated my
publisher, Brazos, challengingme to write more of a hopeful
(09:45):
prognosis book, because there'snot much work and and I think
the way forward starts withacknowledging that we can change
the past, but we can be faithfulin our present context today,
right? So same is true also formy St Thomas. Heritage, because,
as I mentioned in the book, mySt Thomas, Indian Christian
ancestors have blind spots intheir theology and Praxis too.
(10:07):
They participated in the casteoppression of our lower caste
neighbors, until the birth ofthe Pentecostal movement,
started by my ancestors, fivegenerations ago in southern
India. And so again, we can'tchange the past, but we can be
faithful at the present.
Joshua Johnson (10:21):
So you think about colonization, and that's
actually had harm, both to theones that were being colonized
and to the colonizersthemselves, because they've
taken on a different mindset andthe conception of Jesus that is
not the Jesus we actually findin the Gospels. In my circles,
as a mission leader and doingmissions and training
(10:42):
missionaries, the easy thing forpeople to conceptualize is
contextualizing the gospelmessage to people that they're
going to go to within their ownculture and what it looks like
for them so that they couldstart to understand it. What
they don't understand and don'tget is the decontextualization
that they need to do withintheir own faith, so that we're
(11:04):
not presenting Jesus that ourown conception of Jesus that is
not actually presented in theGospels. So you talk about
decolonization work. It's thesame thing for missionaries as
they need to decontextualizewhere they came from. What does
that look like? How do werecognize our blind spots? How
do we start to lift the veil ofwhat we have started to take on?
(11:27):
Because I think this is one ofthe most difficult things to do,
is to analyze ourselves and whatwe have gone through, the things
we have taken on. What are somethings that you have found in
your own journey that helped youdo this type of work.
Joash Thomas (11:44):
Yeah, that's so good. And I love that you
brought in missions, because Ithink we should wrestle with
that as a church, right? Becausewe are called to proclaim the
goodness of the good news ofJesus. So what does it look like
for us to do that decolonizeways that care for the body as
well as the soul, and not incolonialistic ways that just
seek to extract and only preacha partial gospel that focuses on
(12:08):
souls. Yeah, I think for me,I've learned so much at the feet
of survivors, but also globalsouth church leaders. So I'll
share the story. I have afriend, dear friend, who
missionary from India to theTamil part of Sri Lanka, and he
was telling me that the Tamiland really all of Sri Lanka,
(12:30):
there's an indigenous peoplegroup, the original inhabitants
of the land, right? It's funny,because both the Tamils and the
Sinhalese are not and they'refighting over the land, but
you've got the originalindigenous inhabitants of the
land, still there with theirindigenous ways of understanding
the divine, the Creator God,right? And what's interesting is
they kind of have this thingwhere they look out to the sun
(12:54):
and sing songs of lament. Andso, you know, he really spent a
lot of time observing them inthat context. And then he
ultimately went and he askedthem, hey, like, Tell me more.
As you built a relationship withthem, why are you doing what you
do? And they said, Well, youknow, we have this story in our
religion and our faith, that theCreator is going to reveal his
(13:16):
Son to us and that there's goingto be a star that points us to
the location of his birth,right? You know, where this is
going the and so my friend islike, Oh my goodness. Like, this
is huge. Like we, you know, wejust need to connect with them
there, like God has alreadyrevealed Himself to them. And so
he goes to local churches, localTamil churches in the region,
(13:39):
who've been planted, supportedby missionary efforts. And he
tells them, hey, we don't needto start all the way in Genesis
one. We can just meet them wherethey just like God and Jesus
have met them where they are,and talk about the Nativity. And
the response of those churcheswas, no, no, no, we can't do
that. We've been trained tostart from Genesis one. We have
to not even Genesis one, Genesisthree, the fall we have to
(14:02):
start. And so I think that's anexample of, you know, just the
decolonization work that needsto take place in the missions
world around the world, wherewe're not coming in with one
size fits all, cookie cuttersolutions packaged from the
West, but we're coming with aposture of curiosity, of
(14:23):
generosity, of mutuality, ofhumbling ourselves, the way
Jesus does. And again, we'relooking at Mission not as a soul
salvation project, but as aproject to enhance and make
known the shalom and peace andjustice of God on earth as it is
in heaven. And I think weabsolutely need to retrieve what
(14:44):
colonialism has also done to thechurch and missions.
Joshua Johnson (14:48):
Well, as Jesus rolled out the scroll of Isaiah
in Luke chapter four, his firstreally sermon, saying announcing
his ministry, it seems all aboutjustice, goodness, the. Poor.
He's laying this out. That'sJesus saying, this has been
fulfilled. This is what I'm hereto do. How does he go about
(15:08):
doing that? Then you talkedabout not just a cookie cutter,
not one size fits all. You talkabout curiosity and really
realize where people are comingfrom. So we see the justice of
Jesus being central to hisministry from the very beginning
in Luke chapter four, unpackJesus and His justice and what
it looks like in his ownministry, so that we could start
(15:31):
to embody that today.
Joash Thomas (15:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, so I think it'simportant to see the way Jesus
lives his life. You know, Ithink so much in the Western
Church, what we do these days iswe just want Jesus to be born
and then we want him to diecrucified as a penal
substitution, or atonement, orwhatever theory of atonement you
buy into. We just want him todie right and then sure, be
(15:54):
raised again to life. But we'renot. We've completely ignored 33
years of his life on earth, Hislife teachings, ministry, right?
And so the way Jesus lives hislife is so interesting, right?
Like the way he relates to womenin that culture is so counter
cultural, and so advanced forthat time and that context, you
(16:14):
know, even having femaledisciples sit at his feet, learn
from him like that was just nota thing among rabbis in Jesus's
day, but then also the way Jesusinteracted with the untouchables
in his context, right, peoplewith leprosy, people who were
sick and disabled and lookeddown upon. And there's just the
(16:37):
spiritual stigma to those peoplelike God drew closer to those
people through Jesus and and soI love that you brought Luke,
chapter four, verse 18, whereJesus says, The Spirit of the
Lord is upon me to preach goodnews to the poor, to set the
captive free. Set Free theoppressed. Proclaim Liberty.
Will proclaim, you know, yet, togive sight to those blinded by
(17:00):
the dungeons, right? And thenyou see him do that, and the
rest of the Gospel of Luke yousee him proclaim those things.
He's healing sick people. He'sfeeding the hungry. He's
breaking all these social normsof Empire and the cultural
context that ultimately got himcrucified. But then the
beautiful thing is, after Jesusascends into heaven, you see,
(17:22):
the early church do that in Actsthe sequel, and they do those
things that they learned fromJesus to do as well. So you
know, the good news of Jesus, Iargue throughout the book, is
it's not good news unless it'sfirst and foremost good news to
people who are poor andoppressed. It has to be good
news. It has to be actualized asgood news to them. Only then
(17:43):
really would it feel like goodnews to the rest of us.
Joshua Johnson (17:48):
I think that's one of the problems. Is that,
you know, it is good news forthe poor, it is good news for
the oppressed. And when you livein a powerful Western world,
which does have a lot of powerand money and authority within
the world to be able to shapesome of those things. You're
seeing something a little bitdifferent. People are being
(18:09):
pressed against theircomfortable lives. And saying
the Gospels may not just be forstaying comfortable in your nice
little life, but it's actuallyfor the poor and the
marginalized and the ones thatare being oppressed, and we're
actually going to see some newlife through them, how to
navigate living in the empireand following Jesus and caring
(18:32):
for the oppressed.
Joash Thomas (18:34):
That's such a good question. You know, just today,
I got into a minor Twitterskirmish, not one of the major
ones, a minor Twitter skirmishwith another theologian in the
States, in DC, actuallydefending the actions of ice,
right? Defending essentially avideo of someone being subdued
(18:54):
and deported just because theyhad entered the US illegally. If
you and you almost had thisempire centric lens of, oh, we
need to protect law and order. Ithink as the church, we really
need to move away from thatempire centric lens to a Jesus
centered lens among theoppressed. So this is where I
(19:15):
think Catholic social teachingcan really be helpful in the
evangelical church, especiallyspecifically this doctrine of
God's preferential option forpeople who are poor and
oppressed. I talk about this inthe book, but you know, God does
have a preferential option forpeople who are poor and
oppressed. We see that allthroughout Scripture. We see
(19:37):
that in the life of Jesus, theearly church as well. And you
know, what's beautiful aboutthat is that this doesn't mean
that God doesn't love the richand the powerful. He loves the
rich and the powerful. Thisdoesn't mean that people who are
poor and oppressed areontologically better than people
who are rich and powerful. Itdoesn't mean that either. What
it does mean is that thepowerful have money and wealth
(19:59):
and power. Are on their side,the poor and oppressed have no
one on their side. So God showsup for the poor and the
oppressed. And if God has apreferential option for people
who are poor and oppressed, thenso should the church. So should
our theology, so should ourbudgets, so should the way we do
community and who we include atour table and the churches at
(20:20):
Jesus' staple, right? And so Ithink we really need to move
away from the colonial, shapedEmpire lens of church that we
have today, to retrieving thegospel as good news for the poor
and the oppressed and helpingactualize that and experiencing
that for ourselves as peoplewith power and privilege. So I
often tell this to people, don'tassume that I come from a slum
(20:44):
part of Mumbai just because Iwas born and raised in actually
come from a very wealthy familywith a lot of privilege,
probably more privilege thanmost of you listeners, I drive
her a maid and a cook growingup, right? And the Americans get
to say that, but again, like youinherit privilege, you don't get
to change that, but what you doget to do is you do get to
decide how you steward what youfind yourself entrusted with
(21:07):
today. And I think that's myinvitation for the Western
Church
Joshua Johnson (21:10):
in India. How has the church helped reach
across the caste system anddifferent castes? Has it been
able to do any of that work? Andis Is it working?
Joash Thomas (21:23):
I think there's been encouraging work that's
being done has been done. I alsoget the sense that in many ways,
it has been quite segregatedwithin the Indian church, where,
just the way in which we wantmulti ethnic churches here in
the West, I think the Indianchurch should and is aspiring to
(21:43):
churches made up of people fromacross the caste stratosphere.
But obviously that's easier saidthan done. The one thing that
does happen with you know,people who become Christians in
that context is legally, theyget to exit the caste system.
But socially, culturally,there's still stigma, especially
(22:04):
if you're coming from overcastgroups. But I think what's
really beautiful about Indianchurch history that I find you
know, I often say this for theWestern Church as well. Jesus
once told His disciples, if youdon't praise me, the rocks will
cry out. And I think what's beenhappening in the western church
over the past few years, withsociety and culture crying out
(22:27):
for justice, is the rocks cryingout because the church has had
the opportunity to show up forso long. Instead of showing up,
we've been the last to show up,or been slow to show up, and so
if we don't praise God, therocks will cry out. And that's
why society and culture now isyearning for justice in the ways
that they know best, right? Andhere's an opportunity for the
(22:49):
church to be who we were alwaysmeant to be. So you know same
for the Indian context right nowyou've got, or historically,
rather, so I share this in thesermon that I just did this past
Sunday. But of the first 18centuries of my St Thomas,
Christian ancestors in India,lower caste people, were kept
(23:10):
out from church. They were keptout from receiving the
sacraments, from receivingJesus, really, at Jesus's table.
It wasn't until Westernmissionaries come in and really,
you know, not to give too muchcredit to the Western
missionaries, I think the creditgoes to the Dalit people, the
lower caste people. They werethe ones who enlightened the
Western missionaries and said,here's our plight. We want to
(23:33):
receive Jesus. We know peoplewho want to encounter Jesus, but
we're kept away from it becauseof these caste structures within
the church. And then you had theBritish missionaries, the
Anglican CMS missionaries,really interceding on behalf of
lower caste communities andbeing good advocates for them.
That leads to the inclusion. Sosome of that happened, but what
also happened at the same timewas a Pentecostal revival,
(23:56):
essentially a revival of theHoly Spirit in the late 1800s
early 1900s that my ancestors,five generations ago, got to
participate and be a part of.
And that led to the birth of anindigenous church denomination
in India, still called as theIndian Pentecostal church. So
it's not foreign funded, it'sindigenous, locally supported,
local planted, but but it was awork of the Spirit. No human
(24:20):
being could take the credit forthat, and that actually led, for
the very first time, theinclusion of lower caste
neighbors in the church, whichalso led reforms in the Indian
Orthodox Church, the MarthomaChurch, the more mainline,
Catholic, Orthodox Protestantchurches within the St Thomas
(24:40):
branch, who now, because you'vegot the Pentecostal movement
appealing to lower caste, uhHindus, we better take action
too. So it's beautiful to seethe hand of the spirit
throughout human history in thattoo.
Joshua Johnson (24:54):
So you see the spirits, and there's a lot of
people who, like you're sayingin the Western Church. Now the
rocks are cool. Crying out.
We're seeing people yearning forjustice. We're seeing justice
being carried out in a myriad ofways, different ways. How do we
start to say, okay, Jesus, oneof his core tenants, is justice.
So if I even say Jesus isjustice, like we're gonna go
(25:16):
after that and we follow theways of Jesus, you're getting
justice. That's what's going tohappen if you follow the ways of
Jesus. And so how do we takehold of the justice that Jesus
wants, like Jesus being justice,and not let justice issues take
front and center, but Jesus andthose justice issues will then
(25:39):
actually be taken care of. So weactually have to recognize the
issues, but not just focusentirely on them. We have to
bring Jesus in as well. How dowe bring Jesus in and not just
put his name on it and not justsprinkle a little Jesus dust on
it to call it Christian?
Joash Thomas (25:57):
Yeah, that's such a good point. I mean, I often
say this to Western Christiansin my sermon, my sermons, but
there's this posture that wesometimes have, that I think is
a very colonialistic posture ofwe have to bring Jesus with us
to the margins, but Jesus isalready present in the margins,
and that's where I encounteredJesus. That's where so many
(26:20):
leaders in the church haveencountered Jesus throughout
history. Jesus is on themargins. His real presence is on
the margins if we have the eyesto see him there, if we have the
eyes to encounter him there. SoI think we need to go to the
margins with this posture of,how can we see Jesus already at
work here, and how can wepartner with Jesus already at
(26:44):
work on the margins right now?
And the best people to educateus on that will always be the
church closest to the margins.
Because, believe it or not,there are members of the global
church working all throughoutthe world on the margins,
working in the margins, and theycan be our guides. They can be,
you know, just these helpfulguides for us on the margins, to
(27:05):
see Jesus there. See Jesus atwork there. I think it's
important number one, to havethat posture. But then the other
thing I'd say is we often alsohave this posture, shaped by,
really by our capitalisticcontext of we need to be
successful in everything we doas the church, right? But Jesus
doesn't call us to success. Hecalls us to faithfulness, right?
(27:28):
So I think it's worth all of usasking ourselves, what does
faithfulness look like for mewhen it comes to proclaiming the
gospel of Christ throughjustice, and what does
faithfulness require from me,and what will it cost me to be
faithful in this area as a Jesusfollower so and then the other
thing I'd say is, I tell this toadvocates seeking justice within
(27:52):
the church all the time, but thereality of injustice is so heavy
and so dark that we can't dothese things on our own. We'd be
foolish to think we can takethese evils on on our own
strength. We need divinestrength. We need that second
wind, and that only comes frombeing rooted in the spirit and
walking with Jesus. And we oweit to our marginalized neighbors
(28:15):
to not burn out, to be in thisfor the long haul. So that's
also where Jesus comes in andgiving us the strength to
sustain this work, if we stayconnected and rooted in him. You
know,
Joshua Johnson (28:25):
you said that we often think that we need to be
successful, but Jesus calls us afaithfulness and not success. So
if you're thinking of a nonprofit, Justice oriented
organization, one of the thingsthat they need to do is they
need to raise funds. They need afundraise. You've been involved
with fundraising, you know, itis a problem, but we often
(28:47):
think, as organizations, wethink that people will be
attracted to success, so we haveto make sure that we're telling
everybody we're very successful.
So is there a way to reorientthe body of Christ who are
giving to organizations as we'refundraising say it's more about
faithfulness and less aboutsuccess. How do we do that as
organizations so that we can notperpetuate the same thing that
(29:12):
we have actually are trying togo against, but we're thinking,
hey, we have to do this infundraising. So we're going to
do it this way. Can we shift?
Can we change? Is it get better?
Joash Thomas (29:26):
I love that you've asked this question, Joshua,
because I've been doingfundraising work, and, you know,
justice, Christian nonprofitspace for the past decade now,
and initially, as I started inthe world of that, I wouldn't
say that I was beingtransactional, but I was
probably being moretransactional than I realized
(29:48):
back then, with seeing peoplefor their net worth and what
they can bring to the table andall that. And I think even
Christian non profits can runguilty of that at times, if
we're. Not careful, even on ourbest days, but as I've stepped
into the work of the church, asI found hope in the church, and
become a church man, and youknow, been ordained and all that
(30:10):
almost feels like the spiritshelped me develop this pastoral
heart for donors, where I seethem giving as an act of
discipleship on their part, andI think Christian justice
organizations then get to walkalongside these donors in their
discipleship journey with Jesus.
Get to steward not just theirphysical resources, but also
their spiritual wholeness inthis experience. And you know,
(30:34):
so I've led vision trips that Italk about in the book. I've led
vision trips of church leadersand really wealthy, wealthy
Western Christians, you know, toglobal south context, and I've
seen what that's done for them.
I've seen what that exposure hasdone for their faith, their walk
(30:54):
with Jesus, just their theirbroadening of their
understanding of the gospel. Ithink Christian organizations
prioritizing justice have this.
Churches too, by the way, havethis responsibility of exposing
their people to Jesus on themargins and seeing that
transform people's lives, yeah,in very spiritual, pastoral, non
transactional ways. I thinksometimes there can also be a
(31:18):
bit of a challenge with that,because people with wealth and
power sometimes have very fixednotions of how the gospel is, or
how the you know, how the worldoperates, and things like that.
And so in many ways, we're we'realso this journey of
discipleship, taking our donorson a journey with us. Of hey,
(31:38):
you may start here one day, butjust be open to where the Lord
leads you. Just be open to whatbarriers get broken down in your
own heart, and walk with them inpastoral ways as they're
processing that. And that, tome, has been one of the best
things that I've gotten to do inthe nonprofit space.
Joshua Johnson (31:56):
That's really cool. What are some
misconceptions of justice withinthe Western Church, and how can
we redefine it through Jesus?
Joash Thomas (32:07):
Yeah, that's a great, great question. So I
think one of the misconceptionsabout justice is that it is not
a Christian concept, that it isa political concept, or a
Marxist concept or a wokeconcept, right? And of course,
it can feel that way if you'vebeen conditioned not see justice
(32:27):
as part of the gospel. Myconditioning was different in
the global south evangelicalchurch, but, but that is not the
conditioning that most WesternChristians have, so there's
grace for that. But I think whatI try to do throughout the book
is I don't just point people toChristians in the world,
churches in the world right now,that prioritize justice. I also
point to Christians throughoutthe Christian tradition,
(32:49):
throughout history, churchhistory, that have prioritized
and so, of course, we see thatall throughout the Bible, but we
see it in the early church. Wesee it in the early church,
fathers and mothers, how theyprioritize justice. We see it
among reformation figures andhow they prioritize justice. So
even the definition of justicethat I offer in this book is a
(33:10):
Christian definition of it'sAugustine's definition of
justice, which is justice isgiving to each person their due,
which is basically justice isgiving to each person the good
things that God intended forthem. So what's injustice? Then?
Injustice is taking away thatfullness of life that Jesus
always intended for us, that Godalways intended for us. So I
(33:31):
would say that's the topmisconception about justice in
the Christian world. I thinkthere would be other ones as
well. Like you know, justice isa worthy pursuit, but still not
as important as evangelism ordiscipleship, and there's that
separation of justice from thegospel in that way, and that's
(33:53):
also something I push back onand saying, No, this actually
isn't how the global church hashistorically understood justice,
or still understands justice tothis day. We have this
understanding of it because welearned about the gospel from
these traditions that enslavedpeople and participated in
colonization that shaped us. Butlet's challenge that and learn
(34:15):
from the rest of the globalchurch throughout time in
history.
Joshua Johnson (34:18):
So then I think that's part of I think in the
Western Church, if you thinkgospel is just proclamation of a
message and hopefully have someascent to belief, and that's
where the gospel is, yeah, Jesuscame onto the scene and he says,
I'm preaching the gospel of thekingdom of God. There was a
gospel message right there, butit wasn't the gospel of get out
(34:39):
of hell free card and going toheaven, right? It was that. It
was the gospel of good news forthe poor and the marginalized,
the oppressed and for everyone.
So can you just then tell methen help redefine what the
gospel is and what's a holisticview of the Gospel for us to to
have in front of
Joash Thomas (34:58):
us? Absolutely yes. So this is very important.
I say this early on in the book,but I center my definition of
the gospel on Jesus's definitionof the gospel, which is found
Luke, chapter four, verse 18,where Jesus says, you know,
Spirit of the Lord is upon me topreach good news to the poor, to
set the captive free, set freethe oppressed. He says all these
(35:19):
things, I think for many of uswho have been conditioned by the
Western Church, we have beenconditioned to believe that all
of these things are true, butthey're mostly spiritual and not
physical. And that's what I pushback against in this book, where
I say that the gospel is bothphysical and spiritual. It's
both. It's both and it's noteither or the gospel is physical
(35:43):
and spiritual, because God makesHimself known through the
physical. He teaches us thesespiritual truths about himself
through the physical, right? So,for example, the incarnation of
Christ was a physical eventwhich had spiritual
ramifications, the death andresurrection of Christ or
physical events with spiritualimplications, right? So the good
(36:05):
news of Jesus is both physicaland spiritual, and if we don't
hold both together, I think wecan run into the risk, into the
risk of Gnosticism, which isthis early church heresy of you
know, the gospel is purelyspiritual and doesn't have
anything to say to the physical.
And I think when we recover thatholistic version of the Gospel,
(36:25):
the original version of thegospel, we can then go to our
poor and oppressed neighbors andproclaim the fullness of it
verbally and through our deeds,and then the gospel would be
experienced as good news tothem. But the reason why hasn't
been the case so much in theWestern Church is because the
Western Church that participatedin the colonial project found it
(36:47):
advantageous to tell enslavedand colonized people Jesus cares
more about the salvation of yoursoul than the freedom and well
being of your human body, right?
And of course, historicallybenefited us to say that to our
oppressed neighbors. But today,I think we must come to terms
(37:07):
with that and say no, this iswhy we have such an anemic
understanding of the gospel. Andthe gospel has always been both
physical and spiritual.
Joshua Johnson (37:14):
I mean, if you look and let's go back into Luke
chapter four, yeah. I mean, welike this. This passage, Isaiah
61 passage, that's right, yeah,but he talks about the
proclaiming the year of theLord's favor. That's the last
thing he says before he rolls upthe scroll and says, it's now
been fulfilled in your hearing,right here. And so proclaiming
the year of the Lord's favor isa jubilee passage, and Jubilee
(37:37):
itself is like forgiving all thedebts of like, giving back to
everybody everything that theyowe, like it is a re leveling of
the playing field. And so Idon't think we, when I read
that, I don't think about that.
What is this Jubilee concept,and how does that help us
realize what Jesus is reallytrying to get at when it comes
(38:01):
to justice.
Joash Thomas (38:04):
It's a scary concept. It scares people in the
Western Church even today,right? So, a few years ago, when
there was all this discussionaround student loan debt
forgiveness, I tweeted a verytongue in cheek tweet, hey, debt
forgiveness is actuallybiblical. You know, Jubilee. Of
course, there's more nuance. Butyou know Twitter, who comes
(38:25):
there for nuance anyway? And youknow, as I tweeted, that the
pushback was vicious. It waspeople, you know, self
proclaimed Christians who werejust like, No, no. This is
economic distribution. This isMarxism, and it's like, no,
like, let's talk about this in aChristian way. Let's put these
political systems that cameabout hundreds of years later
(38:48):
aside and talk about whatJubilee is, what Jesus says,
what Isaiah says. And I thinkit's this concept of equity, at
the end of the day, it's thisconcept of the low being raised
up, like Mary sings in her songin the Magnificat, in Luke
chapter two. And so it's thisnew world that God is ushering
(39:11):
in through the Holy Spirit,where everything is made new,
where chains are broken, theoppressed are set free, where
the humble are raised, wherethose who exalt themselves are
humble too, and everything is asit should be on earth as it is
in heaven. And this newcreation, this new world, can be
scary to us, and that's why, youknow, the people of biblical
(39:34):
Israel also neglected teachingsof Jubilee. But this has always
been God's desire for us, so weeither get on board or we get
out of the way.
Joshua Johnson (39:43):
We see a lot of injustice around the world, and
in today's age, we get all ofthe news feed at us at once, so
we know all of the injusticethat's happening all over the
world, and we're incensed, andwe enraged, and we want to say
something about it, but we.
Often, then forgets that wecould actually start with our
own community, and there'speople next to us that requires
(40:04):
justice and we could care. So ifyou have a local Community of
Christ followers that want tomake an impact within their
community and see justice, takecenter stage and see the justice
of Jesus. Takes center stage.
What are some things that alocal community can do for their
(40:24):
own local community to see thistake
Joash Thomas (40:27):
place? Yeah, such a great question. I talk about
this at length in the finalsection of my book, as you know,
which is the final threechapters. And I tell Western
Christians that three of themost effective things that we
can do with what privilege wehave here in the West is pray,
partner advocate. So write achapter on prayer. I talk about
(40:51):
how our prayer should ultimatelyform us to prioritize justice,
especially if we pray the wordsthat Jesus taught us to pray,
which is the Lord's Prayer, youknow, give us this day our daily
bread, and the Lord's Prayer isso rich and justice. And I
actually go full exit Jesus onthat in that context. And I
break it down, and I explain howthis connects to justice. In the
book, I also talk about prayingwith our marginalized neighbors,
(41:15):
not just praying for them, butactually getting in community
with pastors on the margins andpraying with our marginalized
neighbors in that way, on thepartnering side, living side. I
talk about generosity throughoutthe book, and I don't just do
this because I'm someone who'sworked on the fundraising side
of global justice, but I also doit because it's good for us.
(41:37):
I've seen how it's good fordonors in the West to partner
with God on the margins bygiving away what they don't need
to see life flourish aroundthem. And so I break that down,
and also we're the beneficiariesof so much here in the West,
we're the beneficiaries ofcolonization. So in the book, I
say that I'm both a child ofcolonization and a beneficiary
(42:00):
of colonization. Became abeneficiary the day I moved to
North America and started livingon stolen land with stolen
resources. And so again, wecan't change the past, but we
can faithfully steward that thepresence through giving and
partnering. And then I also talkabout advocacy, probably one of
the most fun chapters for me towrite, just from my experience
leading advocacy efforts atChristian organizations and
(42:24):
seeing everyday Christians speaktruth to power on behalf of
their oppressed neighbors andso. So yeah, those are three
things that I think we can do,and I hope the details in the
book inspire fresh ideas of thechurch.
Joshua Johnson (42:35):
So then, what does advocacy look like,
practically? How can we advocatewell for people on the margins,
and not make it about us, butmake it about people on the
margins.
Joash Thomas (42:48):
So good. Yeah. I mean, I would start right there,
Joshua. I would start with notmaking it about us, making it
about people on the margins,right? Because, again, that's
what Jesus does for us, right?
He prioritizes our needs overhis own right. And of course,
that can be done in unhealthyways too. But I think God is
ultimately self sacrificing,self giving. So I would say
(43:09):
advocacy is speaking truth topower on behalf of people who
are poor and oppressed. Sothroughout the section on
advocacy, I actually call us asthe Western Church, to be
politically agnostic, becausehere's the thing, right,
political parties of every sidewant to co opt the voice of the
(43:31):
church. They want to tokenizethe church. They want to have a
faith Advisory Council. I mean,both parties do this right, and
they want to use them for theirpurposes, for the purposes of
Empire, but we, as people whoserve the God of the oppressed,
(43:52):
we have a responsibility toengage with these political
powers, not on behalf ofourselves and our needs, but on
behalf of those with lesserprivilege than us, right of our
marginalized neighbors. So So Iactually call us to be
politically agnostic in thiswhere I say we're politically
agnostic, except on behalf ofour marginalized neighbors and
(44:15):
except on behalf of all ourmarginalized neighbors. So
again, some political partieschoose the rights of some
marginalized people groups, andthey exclude the rights of other
marginalized people. So you'reeither for the unborn or you're
against women, just as binary.
But I think as people of thechurch, people of God, Jesus
(44:38):
followers, I think we're calledto be politically agnostic to
all those things, and stand forthe human flourishing and
creation, flourishing of all ofcreation, and do it as best as
we can, as faithfully as we can,even if there's not much success
attached to it,
Joshua Johnson (44:53):
you just breezed by it, but you're talking about
how Jesus was for women and thathe had disciples sit. As feet.
So you think about the passageof Mary and Martha, there is
very few people that read thatthat see sitting at the feet of
Jesus is actually being adisciple of Jesus. How can we?
(45:13):
They usually see it as resting,like, I'm just gonna rest here.
Somebody is working really hard.
You actually abide with Jesusand rest and and you don't have
to do, you know, all the work,but just abide with Jesus, but
it's actually being moresubversive than that. So how do
we know we're reading, well, theBible? How do we know that we're
(45:34):
actually seeing things like thatthat are more subversive and
radical and revolutionary thanwe even think
Joash Thomas (45:43):
that's such a good question. I think this is why
it's important for us to readthrough the lens of of course,
early church fathers and motherswho were on the margins for the
first 500 years, but also readthrough the lens of our
marginalized neighbors today,right? So I have that
perspective, because femaleacademics and scholars pointed
(46:07):
that out to me and said, Yeah,beautiful. That is, you know how
it feels like for us to seewomen being treated as property
throughout Scripture, but thenJesus comes along and does this,
and, you know, just things likethat. So I think there's beauty
in putting ourselves in theshoes of people who would
interpret Scripture differentlyand ask them, Hey, how do you
(46:27):
interpret this text? What doesthis mean to you? What does
Jesus doing this mean to you inyour context today? And then
learning from the beauty andtheir perspectives there, yeah,
and I think there's also readingpeople in a way that's connected
with church history right beforethe Reformation Eve. So not
(46:49):
ignoring the interpretation workthat's been done in the medieval
era and the early church era,but learning from that too, and
then learning from the globalchurch, right? Like learning
from our Orthodox brothers,sisters, siblings, like, how do
they read Scripture? How do theyinterpret Scripture in their
context, learning from ourCatholic siblings in Christ, you
(47:12):
know. And again, you don't haveto agree with everything that a
liberation theologian or afeminist theologian or an LGBTQ
theologian even the saying, buthear 'em out. You know, read
their perspectives. ThinkCritically, challenge, challenge
our thinking, because at the endof the day, we have been shaped
(47:33):
so much by slaveholdertheologians like Jonathan
Edwards and, you know, GeorgeWhitfield and others, who have
shaped so much of our theology,North American church. So if we
can read slaveholder theologianslike Edwards and the Trinity,
then we can absolutely readfeminist theologians, liberation
theologians. So read broadly andlet the Spirit shape our
(47:54):
conscience.
Joshua Johnson (47:55):
That's good. If you could talk to people who
would pick up the justice ofJesus your debut book, which is
fantastic. Really want a lot ofpeople to read it. It's really,
really good, well done. Whathope do you have for this book?
What would you like to getpeople
Joash Thomas (48:10):
Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. I mean, really, my
hope is, my hope is just to getus thinking better. I'm not
expecting people to agree withme on everything, but I just
want us to think. You don't haveto think like me, but just
think. And I also want tointroduce us to good teachers on
the margins who can teach usabout Jesus, who sought justice
(48:35):
in their context and paid theprice for it, and we can learn
things from them. So really, forme, even as I preach about
faithfulness over success, I tryto practice that myself and
saying, I don't know howsuccessful this book will be,
but I am content in havingwritten what I think is a
quality book from a uniqueperspective in the North
(48:57):
American church, from a globalchurch, global south perspective
and an ecumenical perspective,and also an ancient Christian
perspective, where I share theperspective of my St Thomas
Indian Christian ancestors andso, yeah, so my hope is that
this just takes down thestrongholds for us that keep us
from prioritizing justice forour marginalized neighbors, and
(49:19):
that this book helps us make thegospel, reimagine the gospel as
good news for people who arepoor and oppressed in the first
place.
Joshua Johnson (49:28):
If you go back your 21 year old self, Josh,
what advice would you give?
Joash Thomas (49:33):
Oh, yeah, I would say. I would say what I'd say to
myself today. You may think youknow everything, but you really
know nothing, and learn frompeople who have less power and
privilege than you. Humbleyourself under God's mighty hand
in that way, to sit among theoppressed and and be shaped by
(49:56):
their perspectives. I would alsosay, grow out your hair. Hair
and your beard quicker. I guess
Joshua Johnson (50:04):
it looks better that way. It looks better that
way. That's great. Got anythingyou've been reading or watching
lately you could recommend?
Joash Thomas (50:11):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've been reading two, two
dear friends lately, both whiteAmerican men. So, you know, I do
read white American men too.
Actually, one of them isCanadian, so, yeah, so Bradley
jerzak, who's becoming a dearfriend as a Canadian scholar
writing about biblicalreinterpretation, like, how do
we interpret the Bible inhealing ways? And then another
(50:34):
friend who's written anexcellent book on that is Zach
Lambert, who wrote better waysto read the Bible. Highly
recommend that book, book that'salso just come out, but the same
publisher, Brazos press, yeah.
And then so I've ADHD, I'mreading about 20 books at the
same time. You open this can ofworms here, Joshua but, but I'm
(50:58):
also reading munter shocks newbook. He's a Palestinian
Liberation theologian. It'scalled Christ and the rubble.
Thank you, Christ and the rebel.
That's exactly it. Yes, I'm, youknow, trying to read broadly and
and be shaped by it even today.
Excellent.
Joshua Johnson (51:16):
Great recommendations. Well done. So,
good job. The justice of Jesuswill be out the end of
September. Everywhere books aresold, if this comes out a week
early, which it might. So I didhear that you might have some
like a recipe, that's right,that you're giving out for
everybody pre orders, like somebutter chicken. Is that? What
(51:40):
was that? What I
Joash Thomas (51:40):
hear, yes, I mean, I wish I could cook butter
chicken for everyone, but what Ican do is I can share the
recipe, so I've got the spicybutter chicken that I make and
is a huge hit with family andfriends. But yeah, as a way to
celebrate a part of my god givenidentity around the book, as I
bring my full self partneredwith my publisher. So if you go
(52:03):
to Baker, book house and buy, Ithink it's like the first 300
copies, or something like thatlimited edition, you can get
your printed spicy butterchicken recipe in the mail with
your book. If you buy it fromanywhere else, just message me
on social media or anywhere, andI'll give you the digital copy
of that recipe as well, becausegood Indian food was always
(52:25):
meant to be shared, so it's mylittle way of doing that.
Joshua Johnson (52:29):
Hey, man, is there anywhere that you'd like
to point people to just toconnect with you?
Joash Thomas (52:33):
Yeah, so my social media handles are all at Joe,
Ash P Thomas, so I'm probablymost active on Instagram these
days. And then I've got a substack called Jesus justice and
Joash, I do a weekly justice inthe lectionary reflections, you
know, email that goes outbasically taking the lectionary
scripture readings and seeingjustice themes, and they're
(52:57):
sharing that in community. So,yeah, do follow along my sub
stack, too, and yeah, and youknow, I'd love to connect with
folks part of your community.
The work of justice can oftenfeel very lonely and isolating,
but it doesn't have to be. Itwas all meant to be done in
communities, so that's my hope.
With all too
Joshua Johnson (53:16):
good. Well, just Joe ash, thank you so much for
this. This is a fantasticconversation around the justice
of Jesus. What does it look liketo decolonize our theology, our
faith, what we have brought onto ourselves in the Western
Church, so that we can see aglobal perspective and maybe
actually see perspectives ofthose on the margins, those in
the Global South, perspectivesof Jesus, and how Jesus actually
(53:40):
prioritize justice, how that wasone of his core tenants of who
he is and what he brought and sothank you as a fantastic
Conversation. Really enjoyedtalking to you.
Joash Thomas (53:49):
Thanks. Joshua, honored you.
Unknown (54:00):
You.
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