Ep. 346 Joshua Ryan Butler - God is On Your Side - Shifting Culture

Episode Transcript
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Joshua Ryan Butler (00:00):
The reality is we're invited in Christ as
the church to find our deepestcore identity as the beloved of
God. And when that happens,you're not starting from good
stuff I've done, or the badstuff I've done or whatever,
like you're starting with whoGod is towards you, you know,
and that just changes the game.

Joshua Johnson (00:34):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact wecould make. We long to see the
body of Christ look like Jesus.
I'm your host. Joshua Johnson,today I'm joined by Joshua. Ryan
Butler his new book, God is onyour side. Doesn't shy away from
the deep questions. What do wedo when life unravels, when it
feels like God has stepped outof the room, when we're left

(00:55):
wondering if he's really for usout of his own stories of
heartbreak, blindness and evenwrestling with despair. Josh
leads us back to the Gospel ofJohn. He shows us how its one on
one encounters with Jesus aren'tjust ancient stories, but
mirrors where we find ourselvestoday, paralyzed, thirsty,
blind, lost, and discover thatGod sees us before we ever see

(01:18):
him. This conversation is aninvitation to sit in the tension
of hard seasons and still trustthat the God who passes by is
also the God who stays with us.
It's about belovedness surpriseand the hope that even the
hardest places can become holyplaces. So join us. Here is my

(01:41):
conversation with Joshua. RyanButler, Josh Welcome to shifting
culture. So excited to have youon. Thanks for coming on and
joining me.

Thanks so much. We're so looking forward
to the conversation.

Yeah, I just want to start a little bit of
where you start in your book. Soyou open the book some really
personal stories of heartbreak,illness, some betrayal. How do
those seasons, those differentseasons in your life, shape your
sense of whether God is reallyon your side or not

definitely?
Man, no, yeah. So you know thebook's called, God is on your
side, but that's like you'resaying. That was really the
heart behind it, just going,man, what do we do in those
seasons when it doesn't feellike, God, you're on my side,
like you're really with me orfor me. And so in my own life, I
mean, there's been a variety ofthose seasons, but, you know, a
few just examples. I think, whenour daughter was five years old
and she had a psychotic breakand spent 10 days in the

(02:31):
hospital and six months withspecialists, and we thought we
might have lost the girl that weloved in the moon and back. You
know, if we known her, theythought it might be permanent.
And I found myself just going,man, God, are you really with us
right now? Are you really forus? Because it feels like we're
on our own out here, you know,or I had a season a few years
back where I went blind in myright eye, and the doctors were

(02:52):
concerned. They weren't surewhat was causing it, and the
concern was that it could becoming from my left eye as well.
And so like, you need to prepareyourself that you're likely
going blind this next year, andit ended up not being the case.
We determined the causation wasdifferent, but didn't know that
for about a year. So I spentabout a year just going, man,
what's it going to be like if Ican't see my kids faces growing

(03:12):
up, if I can't read and writethe way I know how? And I mean,
you can be blind and still havea great life, but but I was
reimagining just what my futurelooked like with everything I
knew I must have gone, man, God,are you really for me? Are you
really with me? Are you reallyon my side right now, and even,
you know, the immediate contextof the book, you know, about two
years ago, found myself in kindof coming out of a brutal

(03:34):
season, and for the first timein my life, wrestling with some
suicidal thoughts, even, youknow, and just going, Man, the
the thought was that it would bebetter for your family and
friends as closest to you, ifyou just weren't around, you
know. And that was a lie fromthe enemy, you know. It wasn't,
was it wasn't true. But in themiddle of that, I think, just

(03:55):
wrestling with, God, have youleft the buildings? That's what
it feels like right now. Itfeels like feels like I'm on my
own right now. And so, yeah, alot of the heart of the book is
going, Man, where do we go whenit feels like God's not on our
side? How do we grapple navigatethose kind of seasons

you went to the book of John as one of the
places that you found somesolace in to say, hey, maybe God
is on my side, and I find itthrough this book, this
beautiful book, the beautifulgospel. Why the book of John?
What is it for you that reallyshows us that God is with us?

Yes, definitely, man. So yeah, like
you said, I went back to theGospel of John because it's been
kind of my favorite gospel. Ithink for a lot of people, a lot
of people go, man, this is thisis my favorite book of the
Bible. Or when someone becomes anew Christian, we'll often give
them the Gospel of John. Hey,start here because you just get
this beautiful, clear portraitof Jesus, this picture of who
Jesus is. But I've also foundone of the things that's so
beautiful about John is that youcan be reading it for the first

(04:57):
time, brand new to John. Jesusand just everything's, man,
popping. Like, why? But it'slike the waters are shallow
enough for a brand new believerto wade in, right? But it's also
oceanic enough that you can benow, I'm a few decades into
following Jesus, and I'm stilllike, there's depths in that
ocean. Man, there's like, stuffthat is still decades later,

(05:18):
like lights turning on andpopping. And so I found myself
going back to the gospel Johnone because I might just need
Jesus. I need to see I need afresh vision and glimpse of
Jesus right now. And because,man, all these things just
started coming alive. Where Ithink part of getting into those
oceanic depths in John is seeingsome of the ways that he's

(05:39):
drawing Old Testament backdropsthat help these famous scenes of
what Jesus is doing, pop inTechnicolor, where it's like
going, Whoa. That's where thoseextra layers come in. And what I
found for myself was John'sGospel. I focused in the book on
these one on one encounters thatJesus has with various
individuals throughout Johnbecause I saw myself in those

(06:00):
encounters, it was like man. Iwas the man who'd been paralyzed
for 38 years, encounteringJesus, offering to lift me up. I
was the woman at the well, youknow, like encounter Jesus and
being invited into life withhim. I was Barabbas getting
exchanged on the ground, like Iwas all of these characters, you
know. And I think that'sactually part of John's design.
Is an intention. Is not that wewould just read this as kind of

(06:22):
abstract history, but actuallythat we would find ourselves
almost like scenes in stainedglass windows or iconic mirrors
or something, that we actuallyfind ourselves in these stories,
that we could encounter Jesusand see him seeing us in some of
our most desperate seasons.
You're looking

at these one on one encounters. I want to
actually, then also talk aboutthe signs that John has in his
Gospel. And I want to go bigpicture, just to set the stage
of the book, the whole book ofJohn, what do you think his
intention is placing thesesigns? What do you think his
core thesis, and what iseverything like moving towards,

great, yeah.
So John famously has these sevensigns, and each one, I would
suggest, I argue in the book isa picture of the gospel. It's
actually a picture of Christ'sdeath and resurrection and what
he's come to accomplish andbring So, as an example, his
very first sign, wedding atCana. It's interesting, like it
happens on the third day. We'retold, and you're kind of going,
okay, third day of what John,you know, third day of the week,

(07:23):
third day of the year. Itdoesn't say. It's actually
ambiguous, you know. But Iargue, you know? I look
throughout the, you know, Johnsets up each of his stories with
these little clues. And so ThirdDay is a clue he uses throughout
you're about to see aresurrection scene. And so on
the third day, there's thiswedding where Jesus man provides
an abundance, crazy amount ofwine, like 150 gallons, and it's
like 750 bottles or so,something like that, you know.

(07:44):
And to a party that is alreadylit. I mean, they've been
drinking for days. It's been awedding piece. It's been
whatever you know, you're goingJesus. Why are you making so
much wine? What's going on here?
You know? But when you get theOld Testament backdrop, it's
interesting here. Now, prophetslike Joel and Amos, they talked
about how when the Messiahcomes, he's going to bring this
abundance of wine. So theprophet Amos, for example, said,

(08:08):
Man, when the Messiah comes, themountains shall drip sweet wine
and all the hills shall flowwith it. I'll restore the
fortunes of my people Israel.
They'll rebuild the ruinedcities habit them. They'll plant
vineyards and drink their wine,and it goes and just going, Man,
this is about more than justwine. This is about restoration
of the people from exile. Thisis about God bringing his people
out of desolation, back into theland, back into abundance, back
into his kingdom. And so I thinkJesus is making all this wine.

(08:33):
You know, it's a picture of whathe's come to bring through the
gospel. Is this resurrectionwedding with false wine. And
it's interesting too. John tellsus that the water Jesus uses for
this miracle is from the Jewishrites of purification. These
vessels they would use forpurification rites. And there's
a picture of the gospel heretoo, that you used to get washed

(08:53):
with water, but now you getwashed with wine. Right?
Meaning, in the Old Covenant, inthe Old Testament, there were
purification rights with waterthat we'd get washed with. But
now in the Gospel, likeactually, Jesus's blood, the
wine of his blood shed for us iswhat atones for our sin,
cleanses us, as His people,makes us fit for the kingdom.

(09:13):
And it's interesting, at the endof John's gospel, the
crucifixion, when Jesus is beingcrucified. Towards the end,
there's a spear that pierces hisside, and out comes blood and
water. And I think there's stuffJohn's doing with the language
he uses in that scene too, whereit's like, I argue in the book,
Jesus is the seventh vessel,right? Like he uses these six

(09:35):
vessels that represent the OldTestament, covenant, you know,
water, but now Jesus is theseventh vessel who turns water
into wine through himself likenow the water of His Spirit, the
wine of his bloodshed, is howwe're washed and cleansed may
appear and all this kind ofcomes to a head with the ending
of the scene where the master ofthe banquet is. Taste the wine

(09:58):
and says, Oh my gosh, you'vesaved the best for last. Tells
you, my man, most people bringout the, you know, good stuff
first, and then they get to theTupac, Chuck and whatever at the
end, you know, but you actuallybrought the best stuff out at
the end. What's going on there?
Well, dude, this is a picture ofthe kingdom, like Jesus. I think
we have a picture of the masterof the feast, like the father at
the wedding feast, banquet ofHis Son and His Church, His

(10:20):
Bride, like he goes, Jesus, thefather delights in the
sacrificial love of the sonpoured out for his bride to
accomplish this wedding, hegoes, this is better than all
the Old Testament, sacrifices,all the other stuff you've saved
the best for last, like whatChrist has accomplished on the
cross through His death andresurrection, is this wedding

(10:41):
feast of abundance andrestoration and union with his
people, and the Father iscelebrating and rejoicing. And
so that's the first sign. And,yeah, basically just go, man. I
think throughout the book, Ikind of look at each of the
seven signs. It's like, it's notjust like, hey, cool party trick
Jesus, that's rad. What he youknow, he's powerful. You do that
thing. It's like, no, he'sactually orchestrating, like a
parable of the kingdom, apicture of what his death and

(11:02):
resurrection accomplishes forthe world.

That actually makes me fall in love with the
Bible even more. Right? Thisstory that moves from the
beginning to the end, that is acohesive story that bringing in
elements from the end, someanalogies and metaphors of what
it looks like to live in thekingdom. What Jesus is going to
do is resurrection, like, how weget to live now in the kingdom,
what's going to come in theconsummation? Like this whole

(11:27):
story of the Bible justphenomenal. And every time think
of it as, like a big story frombeginning to end, I'm like,
Okay, I could find myself in it.
This is when I know that God ison my side. There's a lot of
times when people take, youknow, different verses, like one
verse that says God is for youand like, it's like, okay,

(11:47):
that's a good truth, but itdoesn't hit me. Like being part
of the story hits me. So if Icould find myself, so how did
you find yourself here in themanboard blind. I'm going to
take the physical representationof you going blind in an eye,
and then just as Jesus passes bythis man who was born blind, he

(12:10):
was blind from birth and healinghim like where did you find
yourself in that story? And howdid you know that God was with
you? Because of it, definitely.

Well, man, you know, one of the things that
was so really popped for me inthat story where Jesus sees the
man, warm blind is, as youmentioned. It says, you know, it
opens with, as he passed by,Jesus saw him. One of things
that struck me was like, dude,Jesus sees him before he sees
Jesus, you know, and Jesus seeshim in his condition, and I
found myself in the season of,you know, with the blindness in

(12:47):
my right eye, and this kind ofprocessing and wrestling with
Man, am I? Am I losing myvision? One of the questions
more metaphorically in that, waslike, God, I can't see you right
now. I don't know where you are,you know, like I I'm really
wrestling with, have youabandoned me? Or, what does this
mean? Like, what, not onlybecause of the physical
condition, but also because, youknow, I felt called to, I don't

(13:10):
know, like, I think of like,writing and reading and, you
know, those are kind of somecore parts of stuff that I do,
and I'm like, Man, am I gonna beable to fulfill what I feel
called to do? Is that actually,is that calling from you, you
know, and and the fear of, like,am I gonna be able to see my
kids faces, growing up,someone's fears and all that set
up this place of going, God, Ifeel like I can't see you right
now. I don't understand whatyou're out doing. And in this

(13:31):
story, one of the things thatwas so powerful was like, dude,
Jesus can see me even when Ican't see him, you know, like
that he sees us before we seehim. And things struck me is
says as he passed by. And thatphrase passed by, you go to Old
Testament like it's Greek in theNew Testament, but the phrase,
same phrase used in the Greekversion of the Old Testament,

(13:52):
it's a famous phrase that showsup regularly for God's glory
passing by. So you think ofMoses like my glory is going to
pass by. Hide you in the cleftof the rock, or job, like in the
midst of his suffering, and yetGod's glory passes by, you know.
And so there's this imagery, orthis picture of Jesus is Yahweh
in the flesh, the God of the OldTestament come to save and

(14:13):
deliver his people. His glory ispassing by. And this guy can't
see it yet, you know. But Jesussees him kind of like, I found
myself going, Man, I feel like Ican't see it yet. And yet you're
forming, you're coming towardsme. You're to me. And another
thing that struck me was whenJesus heals the man, he rubs
it's the mud in his eye andsaliva and everything, and he

(14:33):
tells him to wash himself in thepool of Siloam. And what hit me
was, after this man was healed,he still hadn't seen Jesus yet.
You know, like, like, he had togo wash the mud off, and he's
somewhere else. And so he stillhasn't seen he's encountered the
presence of Jesus, but he hasn'tyet seen Jesus face to face. And
I feel like that's like apicture of all of us in some

(14:55):
way. You know, it's like, manwe, you know, New Testament
church today, these days, likewe've had a real encounter.
Honor with Jesus, through HisSpirit, His presence, he has
encountered us. He's opened oureyes. And the Pool of Siloam, I
argue it's a picture of baptismas well. And so we've been
baptized. We've been washed bythe Spirit. We've had our eyes
opened by the presence ofChrist, but we still haven't

(15:15):
seen him yet face to face, youknow, and this guy's getting
grilled and questioned by theleaders of the day, you know who
did this and what's going on,and his testimony, though, is
all he's got. He's like, I don'tknow who's got. All I know is, I
once was blind, now I see and Ithink similarly, like, we're in
a spot where, even if we haven'tseen Jesus face to face yet,

(15:36):
we've encountered His presence.
We've experienced thetransformational work he's done
in our lives, and Johnsonelsewhere in Revelation. Man we
overcome by the word of ourtestimony, the blood of the lamb
and the word of our testimony,like the blood of the Lamb, like
what Christ has done, and theword of our testimony, what the
impact that's had in our lives.
And in short, man, I foundmyself in that season for that

(15:57):
year, my theme verse became fromthe book of Job where he says,
Man, though he slayed me, yetwill I trust him? And I found
myself. I didn't get there dayone, but over the next few
months, I found God encounteringme, working on me, bringing me
to a place of heart, of going,not just what, moving from what
if to even if, from, like, whatif I go blind to even if I go

(16:19):
blind, God, I will trust you,though you slay me. Yet will I
trust you? And I don't know.
Yeah, so I think that's one ofthe God often wants to do in
those seasons, is cultivate ourtrust and take us to a deeper
level of trusting Him, not inspite of our circumstances, but
even in the midst of it.

So in the midst of circumstances, some people in
the midst of difficultcircumstances say, Where are
you, God? I don't sense yourpresence. I don't know that
you're here. What helps you?
This presence like that he'swith you, like the withness of
God. Even you know, I knowpeople go through the dark
nights of the soul where, likeGod is far off, and he feels far
off. And question, Is God reallywith me or not? How have you

(17:01):
found his withness in thosedifficult places where he feels
far off?

Yeah, that's great. Well, two different
thoughts come to mind. I'llstart with kind of the easier
one, and then move to the morein depth one, you know. So the
first thing that comes to mindis, man, there's a practice that
my wife and I like to use oflistening prayer, right, where
we'll kind of, like, when I'mfeeling unsettled, or something
difficult is going on, or I feelconfused or frustrated, and all
kind of two phases in thisprayer, where the first one will

(17:34):
be Jesus, like, what's the lie?
The fear, like, what's the liethat I'm being told, or the fear
that I'm believing, you know.
And I'll take a moment, 30seconds, a minute or so, bring
that for the Lord, and just takesome time to listen. And often,
that'd be something that willsurface, not always, but often,
you know. And then I'll takewhatever that is and go, Okay,
well, Jesus, what's the truththat you want to speak into

(17:56):
that, you know? So to give anexample, I remember, this is
some years back, but I woke upone morning and I had this
thought just blaring in my headof, you're gonna die soon.
You're about to die soon. And Iwas like, man, well, what's
that? Where's that coming from?
You know, is kind of out of leftfield, but it was like, blaring,
really strong. I share the storymore in the so I went for a
walk, and I kind of brought thatwith the Lord. I was like, Okay,

(18:18):
what's going on? Where's thisthought camera, so what's the
lie, the fear, you know, where'sthis come from? And what began
to surface since the spiritsurfacing? For me, I had just
finished this major ministryproject that had taken quite a
while, and there was a sense ofgoing, Okay, now that's done.
The Lord doesn't need youanymore. And and like the and
realizing I'm like, there's somestuff going on here. The lie

(18:40):
underneath is, Hey, God justwants to use you. He was just
using you to get that done, andnow that's done. Doesn't need
you anymore. So I took that andI brought the Lord. I'm like,
Okay, well, Jesus, what's thetruth that you want to speak in?
And very clearly, the phrase Iheard was, before I called you
to use you, I called you to loveyou, you know, like I think I
didn't call you to see you. Icalled you to love you like

(19:01):
you're my child. And the thingbefore broke, you know, like the
power of whatever that thing wasbroke and so often on something
that's my first thought thatcomes to mind is prayer. But
specifically, that's a method ofprayer that my wife and I found
really helpful for just bringingtough stuff before the Lord, and
we're going through it. But thesecond thought that comes to

(19:22):
mind, and this is maybe more ofthe when life really hits the
fan, you know, like, so let'sjust say, for example, like, two
years ago, when I mentioned mylife blew up, and a lot of loss,
a lot of, God, where are you?
The first time of really, like,suicidal thoughts and all. And
for me, it was really amultifaceted approach for that
next year where man, counseling,like getting in with a good

(19:45):
counselor, was huge community,having a close community of
trusted friends that I couldprocess and walk with
medication. In my case, likeMan, it was really helpful to
get on some medication thathelped as well. I. And and the
so I think just going back,there was no quick fix, you
know, like, and I think alsogiving time for a process,

(20:10):
because it was really about ayear, especially six months
like, felt like dark night ofthe soul, about a year of just
because part of what washappening actually was I found
God using my immediatecircumstances to actually
surface some really deeperlayers from my childhood and
deep stuff in my story that Ididn't even realize, you know,

(20:32):
it's like, Man, I thought I'dmoved on from all that. I
thought that was just in thepast, you know, and all this
stuff starts getting dredged up.
And I'm like, Dude, I don't needto do I had enough this year to
do. I need to go back to thatstuff, you know, and that stuff
was just coming like a train,like a freight train. And so
what I found was like man,underneath some of the
disillusionment and despair inthat season was some deep level
spiritual formation work withGod. I probably did some of the

(20:57):
deepest spiritual formation inmy life, digging into layers of
my childhood and life story andmy personality and where that
was all coming to all thisstuff. And so I think there's
even beautiful invitation inthose seasons to go deep with
God, yeah, but, but I don't wantto sugarcoat that either and
make it sound like that's like aquick fix or an easy overnight
thing, because it's, yeah, itwas a process.

Didn't sound like a quick fix or an easy
overnight thing at all, evenwhen you were trying to maybe
sugarcoat it, it wasn'tsugarcoating at all. I think
that God wants to do that overtime, because I think this is
one of the things that Godreally likes to do break cycles
of fear, violence, oppression,trauma, and these are

(21:41):
generational cycles that usuallywe pass on things
generationally. And if we don'tdo that work of childhood, work
like bringing things up, we'regoing to passing on things that
we've inherited as well, thatChrist wants to break us free
from that. But not just break usfree, but break generations free

(22:02):
from it. And so I think it'spretty phenomenal we often
think, like in America, I thinkso individualistically, right?
It's just about me, but it'sactually he's doing bigger work
than we actually think he is,even just in our own little
story. It's actually the nextgeneration, and for people later

(22:23):
on, where there's going to besomething more flourishing, and
so that they could sit in theplace where they know that
they're Beloved. And I think youyou write about, you know,
John's all about belovedness of,you know, being a beloved child
of God, the one that that Jesusloved. So belovedness is really
important. So as you're lookingat belovedness in John, then one

(22:46):
of the places you pointed out isthe story of the woman at the
well, the Samaritan woman. Howdid Jesus bring out the
belovedness in her? And how canwe start to sit in the
belovedness of God?

Definitely.
Man, well, I love this story.
Man, the woman at the well, it'sa lot of people's favorite, John
chapter four. And maybe my firstobservation, in terms of the Old
Testament backdrop, again,right? That I think helps us
even pop at a bigger level, isthe well, like the location that
they meet. And if you go, Ohman, where's the Well, well, in
the well, the well is thelocation where the groom meets

(23:18):
the bride. And so we see this inplaces like Genesis 24 it's
where Rebecca is discovered forIsaac. It's where Jacob first
locks eyes with Rachel inGenesis 29 it's where Moses and
sephirah meet in Exodus, chaptertwo. And so the leading Jewish
scholar, Robert Alter, he's afamous, influential, leading

(23:40):
Jewish scholar refers to thewell as a like a Hebrew type
scene for the location where thegroom and the bride first meet.
And he gives like five keycharacteristics of these scenes.
So the first one is that thefuture groom journeys to a
foreign land, and we see Jesusdoing that here in John chapter
four, going through Samaria. Thesecond one is there. He

(24:02):
encounters a girl at a well, andthat happens here with Jesus and
the woman. Third one is one ofthem draws water from the well.
There's this whole discussion inJohn four about the water
getting drawn a fourth one isthe girl rushes home with news
of the stranger's arrival. Andthat happens. The smarten woman
runs back and tells everyone,you gotta come meet this person.
And the fifth one is a betrothalis concluded after he has been

(24:23):
invited to a meal. So that. Andwe see that picture here where
Jesus and then invited by thespares to stay for a couple days
and to feast with him, right?
And so, well, what's going onhere? Well, I don't I'm not
saying that anything literallyromantic is happening between
Jesus and this woman, but I amsaying that John is narrating
this story. I think it's a realencounter. Jesus encounters this
woman, but John is narrating thedetails. I think Jesus is even

(24:45):
orchestrating what's happeninghere as a window into a greater
reality, kind of this picture ofChrist encountering church as
his bride, and which isinteresting, we talk about this
theme of being beloved, right,as the church being beloved of
Christ, and a few. Things thatwe see about the belovedness of
the church in the story, Ithink, is well as a picture of
the church, Jesus crosses allthese boundaries to get to us,

(25:07):
like he's crossing all these inJohn four, he's crossing
boundaries of ethnicity, ofsocioeconomics, of religious
boundary, like he's crossing allthese divides that Jews and
Samaritans hated each other,dude, and Jesus is crossing
everything he can to get to hisbeloved. And I think in the
bigger picture, Jesus is the onewho's crossed the greatest
boundary from heaven to earth toget to us. You know, like to be

(25:29):
with us, to be on our side. Andthe Samaritan woman, I think, is
a pretty fitting picture of thechurch as well, because, like
her, the church is part Jew andpart Gentile, like Samaritans
were Jewish and Gentile, andthat's a major theme in the New
Testament. The church's identityis Jew and Gentile. Like her, we
are from the wrong side of town.

(25:50):
We encounter Jesus as one again,who journeys from a far off
place, from a distant land, fromheaven to earth, to meet us, and
not just to like have a one offencounter and leave again, but
actually to be united with usforever, as His people, you
know, and so, yeah, because weget to have more. And I think
that picture, for me, is sopowerful of the scene as a

(26:12):
picture of us encounteringChrist as His Beloved. And one
other theme that comes up herewith kind of the Old Testament
backdrop, and is we're told thatshe had five husbands in the
past, and the person she's withnow is not her husband. Well, on
a symbolic level in the OldTestament, I kind of argue

(26:34):
throughout the book that everynumber is significant. I think
every number is echoingsomething here, and a number of
commentators have observed howshe's a fitting representative
for Samaria and the Samaritans,because in the Old Testament,
Samaria was the northern kingdomof Israel, and when they were
invaded by Assyria, Assyria,basically they were invaded by
five cities who brought theirfive male gods and planted them

(26:57):
in Israel. And so part of thehistory of Israel is leaving
would have been described by OldTestament prophets as adultery
with these five foreign malegods. You know, like they're
cheating on Yahweh with theseother that's in Second Kings 17,
that this all gets narrated andlike that. You know, I think you
say that we, as the church, wehave had many other lovers.
We've been both. There's beengnarly things done to us by the

(27:18):
powers of the world. And thenwe've given ourselves over to
other things as well and chasedafter these other things. And so
I think that becomes a pictureof, though, of man. Now, in
Jesus, we've encountered, I callin the book Jesus the seventh
husband, right? You have theseso Samaria, you have the five,
then you have the one. Now she'swith now, who's not currently

(27:39):
her husband. And scholars haveseen that as a picture of she's
now kind of with Yahweh, but notfully in the covenant, like
married, no, you know. But nowthe seventh Jesus has come and
him like, Dude, she's leavingbehind all those other five as
Samaria is leaving, called toleave behind the five idols we
as the church, we're leavingbehind the gods of the nations,

(28:00):
the idols of the power, youknow, all those other things to
be united to Jesus in covenantwith him as his people and his
bride. So man, we're beloved,we're Beloved,

we are beloved.
We are beloved, but we forgetit, right? Yes, we forget our
belovedness. And then we go offand we choose on Jesus with all
of the powers of this world,usually, you know, it's money,
sex and power, right? On Jesuswith throughout history. And it
happens over and over again. Andthe beautiful thing about Jesus

(28:33):
is he calls us back and says, Istill want you, and you are
still my beloved. And come backto me, yes, calls us back
totally. And that's beautiful,even when we consistently do him
wrong, yeah, in the church, wejust do him wrong all the time.
So I'm so glad that he calls us

back.
Definitely hangs, definitelyyeah. And I love that, even that
image of the well, you know, soI kind of, I went recently. This
is about two weeks ago. I was intown here walking. I walked back
by the place where I firstproposed to Holly, my wife, you
know. And it just brought backthis flood of emotions, all the
memory, you know. And I feellike the well, in John Chapter
Four is almost like it is goingback to the place where you

(29:15):
first met, you know. And we haveall these iconic scenes of first
encounters in in our culture,like, I don't know When Harry
Met Sally, or, you know, theplace where the couple kind of
meets and sees each otherbecomes this classic scene, or
Romeo and Juliet by the fishtank and whatnot. But in my own
life, and I think in our lives,like there's an invitation here,
when we do forget ourbelovedness and we run off to
these other places, we havethings happen to us to go back

(29:37):
to the place where we met Christto recount our story and
celebrate that story, and he'sthere to meet with us again, you
know. And, and I love like youmentioned to you. One last
thought here on this is thebeloved theme is like, like you
mentioned a minute ago, how Johnrefers to himself throughout the
gospel as the beloved disciple,and that's amazing to me. Like,

(29:58):
I kind of go, I had a friendasked me once, he's like, man,
what, what do you want put onyour tombstone? Like, when you
die? That's a morbid question.
You know, he's like, but he'slike, when you die someday,
like, what do you wish yourlegacy would be? And I feel
like, for John, this is, like,what he's got on his tombstone,
you know, it's like, Dude, I wasloved by Jesus. Like, beloved.
That's the most important thingI could I'm gonna use my name,

(30:20):
like the more important than myown name is that Jesus has seen
me, known me, called me, loveme. And that's actually a major
theme where the name David, forexample, in the Old Testament,
literally means beloved. It'sthe Hebrew word for Beloved. So
whenever Israel's celebratingKing David, the son of David,
all that they're saying Kingbeloved, son of the beloved. You
know, like when, like Song ofSongs behind my beloved and My

(30:43):
beloved is mine. And Israel sawthemselves in this relationship
with God as His Beloved. So KingDavid was the beloved of God.
Israel saw themselves beloved ofGod. Jesus, when He's baptized,
the father says, This is Mybeloved Son, and who I'm well
pleased Jesus hasn't even doneanything yet. You know, he
hasn't done his ministry yet.
And so I think the reality iswe're invited in Christ as the
church to find our deepest coreidentity as the beloved of God.

(31:07):
And when that happens, you'renot starting from good stuff
I've done, or the bad stuff I'vedone or whatever, like you're
starting with who God is towardsyou, you know, and that just
changes the game.

One of the people that Jesus really loved
was Lazarus. There's a verysmall group of scholars, some
people, they argue that Lazarusactually wrote the book of
Johnson, that and that, becausehe was the beloved, that Jesus
loved him, was a great friend,which I think is kind of fun to

(31:43):
think about. I don't know ifthat happened, but it's fun to
think about that he's there.
And, you know, a lot of Johntakes place around Lazarus and
where he was from, and the othergospels don't actually have
those things in there. So it isan interesting thing that some
people think that Lazarus wrote,

John, it's so interesting. Yeah, it's
fascinating. Yeah, I've seensome of the scholarship on I'm
like, That's intriguing. Yeah,it's worth reflecting

on. But when you looked through Johnny, looked at
that story, what stood out toyou with the story of Lazarus,
the raising of Lazarus.

Well, a couple things. You know, one
piece that really, I'd neverseen before was how so arguing
the book that John 10, whereJesus talks about himself as the
Good Shepherd, and John 11, withthe raising of Lazarus from the
dead, are meant to go togetherlike they're actually heard
together. And so, so there's alot of interesting stuff here,
where, for example, in John 10Jesus is talking about himself

(32:44):
like, I'm the Good Shepherd, mysheep. Know my voice. I call him
out of the pen, and they comecome out, you know. He also
says, I'm the gate for thesheep, you know. And so they can
come out and and in context, sokind of setting the stage for
Lazarus in a second, right? Butin the context, in Jesus being
the Good Shepherd is back inEzekiel, 34 Ezekiel before where

(33:05):
God is confronting BadShepherds, leaders of God's
people, who are mistreating,abusing like horrible, you know,
but he holds out this hope thatthe day is coming when I myself
will come and shepherd mypeople. So I think subtext here
Jesus is going that day is herelike there are a lot of bad
shepherds out here who've beenmistreating my sheep, but now I,
as the Good Shepherd have comeand My sheep know my voice, and

(33:26):
I myself. I am Yahweh in theflesh, come to redeem and to
care for and shepherd and guidemy people. Now in the Lazarus
story, a lot of the samelanguage and imagery is used
that Jesus was using in the GoodShepherd stuff. So the Good
Shepherd calls his sheep byname. Jesus calls Lazarus by
name, Lazarus come out. I am thegate for the sheep. I am the

(33:48):
resurrection and the life. LikeLazarus is raised from the dead
through Jesus, through his poweras the resurrection alive. I
think there's Exodus imagerythat's used here as well, where
depiction of that says thatLazarus was, I mean, it's been a
little bit so I'm trying toremember for sure. But like
that, Lazarus is bound in thegrave clothes, like the picture,
like, dude, these are likechains that he's bound in. And

(34:09):
so now the ultimate badShepherd, death, Satan, the
Dominion revealed, like Jesus iscoming. He's the Good Shepherd
who's breaking that gate open.
He's calling Lazarus his sheepout of the tomb out into open
pastures of life with him. Andhere's one final thought,
instead of is, it's kind of abig one, though, is I argue in
the structure of John that soJohn five to 10, really, five to

(34:35):
11 are a unit, right? And soJohn two to four has a certain
structure. And then in John fiveopens where Jesus is at the
sheep gate. And then in John 10,Good Shepherd, he says, I am the
gate for the sheep. Andeverything in this section is
against the backdrop of Israel'swilderness wanderings. And so
there's Israel getting manna inthe wilderness. John six, it.

(34:58):
Israel getting water in thewilderness. John seven, there's
Israel being led by light in thewilderness. John eight and nine,
there's God shepherding hispeople in the wilderness. John
10, and all that to say, whenyou get to Lazarus, you've got
now Exodus imagery of Godcalling his people out, out of
Egypt, out from the tomb, outinto life with him. And it's

(35:20):
like the seventh sign, right?
And all through the Gospel ofJohn, thus far, he's been given
these six prior signs that areall about Jesus, death and
resurrection. Now in John seven,we see like, I mean, John in in
Lazarus, we see the seventh signthe clearest. Hey, here's what

(35:42):
I've come to do, man, my deathand resurrection is going to
raise you from the dead. It'sgoing to knock open that gate
and call you out, call out mypeople as my sheep, into my open
pastures.

It's beautiful.
I mean, I love that and thatHe's calling us out into open
pastures, that we are the sheep,as you know, as you move then
out of raising of Lazarus, theninto the raising of Jesus
Himself. And you talk aboutanticipating hope that there is
some surprises and anticipatingsurprise. Surprises. This
morning, some spiritualdirection. My spiritual director

(36:14):
told me to look for Godsurprises. I mean, that's one of
my assignments coming out ofspiritual direction this
morning, is to look for thesesurprises. And I want to know
is, how do you anticipatesurprise in the midst of
darkness, of when there isSaturday and you have nothing,

(36:35):
it's dark, you feel like theenemy has lied to you. Said
nobody needs you. God isn't withyou. Your family doesn't need
you. How do you anticipatesurprise and like, hey, hope may
be coming?

Yes, definitely. Well, so in the
story here John 20 as the firststory of Jesus resurrection in
John's Gospel. And I love it howit opens where it's dark. On the
third day in the dark, Mary wentto the tomb. And I think about
that, how Mary is going to thehard place she's she's will make
the journey in the dark to thedifficult place where what she

(37:14):
loves was lost. You know, Imean, Jesus has been her
everything, her deliverer, likeher hope, all that has now been
destroyed by the crucifixion.
And so for Mary, it's probablylike the darkest spot she's ever
been in all hope is lost, andyet she still has the courage to
go to the tomb, to go to thehard place, to go to where what
she loves was lost. And I seethat as something powerful, like

(37:40):
in our own lives, like I'mtempted, you know, to ignore the
hard places, to avoid going tothe difficult. So even in my own
difficult season, I sharedearlier about you, two years ago
and going through the year ofcounseling and processing stuff,
I felt like that was, in asense, it was going to the tomb,
you know, it was going to thearea where, man, it feels like

(38:02):
Jesus is gone. It feels like I'min dark night of the soul. And
God, it seems like you're notaround anywhere, you know, I
can't see you. I don't knowwhere you are. It feels like all
hope is lost. I feel like Ireally knew you, but now I don't
know where I'm at. And I thinkfor a lot of us, you know, for
people, it takes courage in thedark night of the soul, to go to
the tomb, to not just kind ofrun to trying to medicate or

(38:23):
entertain or by Medicaid. Imean, you know, with drugs or,
you know, addictions orbehaviors that are not going to
be healthy for us, we can easilyavoid or enter trying to get
sucked up in entertainment orignoring or distracting. I think
a lot of that we're avoidinggrief, you know. And yet, to go
to the tomb is to go to some ofthose hard places in our life

(38:49):
where God feels absent, or whatwe love has been lost, and to
sit, to sit, sit with that, youknow. And yet, what married
encounters when she goes to thetomb, and I think John is
depicting Mary here, as well asa representative of the church
in the season. In the scene,Mary goes and and encounters not
only the resurrected Christ, butI love this image where she goes

(39:11):
in the empty tomb. And in thetomb, we're told that on the
slab where Jesus's body lay,there's an angel at the head and
an angel at the foot. Well,that's an interesting Old
Testament echo where that's likethe Ark of the Covenant, dude,
where what you had in the Holyof Holies, in the most holy
place, you had the Ark of theCovenant, had the angel at the
head and the angel at the foot,and the blood was spilled, you

(39:32):
know, was shed, was put on theArk of the Covenant to atone for
the people's sin, and it wasseen as the resting place for
God, like God's footstool, Godon His holy throne, resting his
feet on there. And, okay, what'sthe point here? Well, I think
the symbolism here is sayingthat the hard place has become a
holy place, but now the spotwhere Jesus's crucified body lay

(39:55):
has now been transformed throughthe. Power of His sacrifice into
a place where the power andpresence of God, His
reconciling, restoring presence,is now coming out of here to
redeem and restore the world,you know. And on a macrocosm
level, you know, on a big level,it's going, Dude, the hard place
has become a holy place, likeJesus is the crucifixion. This

(40:17):
is like ground zero foreverything blew up and went
down, and yet it's now becomingthe place through which God is
reconciling and restoringcreation and humanity to himself
in and through Christ. But on amicrocosm level, I'd say, for
Mary herself as a picture of thechurch, she goes to the hard
place where it seems like God isabsent, and yet encounters there

(40:38):
that the hard place has become aholy place where she meets with
the glorified, resurrectedChrist. And I can attest in my
own life that part of whathappened, part of what I
experienced in going to the hardplace, with counseling, with
friends, with processing, withnot avoiding or ignoring. And

(40:59):
there were times where I wantedto avoid ignoring, what's but
like, but going, God wouldn'tlet me, man. He kept bringing me
back into the hard place. Goinginto those hard places became
places of some of the deepest,most intimate encounter with God
on the other side, you know. Andso that phrase you mentioned,
you say, anticipate, surprise. Ithink because of the

(41:20):
resurrection of Christ, part ofwhat the resurrection means is
that on our own personalmicrocosm levels, right, we can
go to we can take courage to goto the hard places of our lives,
to go to the memories, thewounds, the hurts, the scars,
the places that it could beeasier to avoid. And yet, when
we go to those hard places, Ibelieve the part of the

(41:43):
significance of resurrectionthat Christ loves to encounter
us there. It may not beovernight, it may take some
time, it may be a season, butthat Christ loves to encounter
us there, and that the power ofJesus can transform our hard
places into holy places where wemost deeply encounter the
presence of the living God.

How beautiful those hard places could be, holy
places that we could actually gothere. That's such a beautiful
description of what happensthere on the micro level and on
the macro level, you talk aboutas the place where Jesus starts
to redeem and restore all thingsand renew all things through Him
for that level. But we also getto participate in this which is

(42:28):
strange and weird that he says,Come along with me, and we get
to participate in this kingdomwork. So restore and renew all
things on Earth, which isincredible. Thank you, Jesus,
that you invite us along, buthe's inviting Peter along when
he restores Peter. So therestoration of Peter, this is my
favorite story in all scripture,so I want to get into it. And I

(42:51):
think it might be my favoritestory, because at the end,
before Jesus ascends, he justwants to have a barbecue on the
beach with his friends. So itjust gives me an excuse to
barbecue over an open flame andhang out with my friends. But
other than that, just thisbeautiful restoration that we
just see on this level of Peter,what's happening in the story

(43:14):
that that may be surprising tous that we may not have
recognized and seen even youknow, I've, as you said
something about, like, bringingall people in, like, it, it is a
little surprising, some of thestuff that you said. So what?
What would be surprising

here?
Definitely, yes, like you said,I love the story. Jesus is
busting out the Traeger grill,and he's cooking up a feast and
grilling and and making ithappen. But, yeah, so big
picture. I think what Jesus isdoing here is he is walking
Peter through some of hispainful memories in order to
redeem and restore them, right?
And so the first part of thescene, disciples have been

(43:55):
fishing all night. It's in thedark, and I think there's even
some symbolism here. You know,it's darkness. The boat is out,
hovering over the waters, andthere's echoes of Genesis, one
here, of like, like the spirithovering over the waters,
darkness, having no catchanything. But then there's the
light breaks, and the voice, theword of God, goes forth over the
waters, and Jesus says, Hey,Cast your net on the other side.

(44:16):
So they do have this miraculouscatch of 153 fish. Boats are
full, right? What's going onhere? Well, couple thoughts.
First off, so if Jesus isreinstating Peter's calling,
right? And so a lot of thedetails in the scene echo when
Jesus first called Peter. Thisis in Luke's gospel, but I

(44:37):
believe John, many scholarswould say it's written last, and
he's drawing off of the MatthewMark and Luke like as common
knowledge, right? And so some ofthe themes that happen in Luke's
gospel is Jesus does same thing.
Hey, if they're gonna see theother side, they have this
miraculous catch of fish. And somuch so that in Luke the nets
are breaking, the boats aregoing under. They can't hold

(44:57):
this massive cat. Church, andthen Jesus calls Peter follow
me, and I'll make you a fisherof men. So the miraculous catch
of fish earlier in Peter's life,it's a sign of His calling to go
and gather in the nations, to bean evangelist, really, to bring
the gospel. And now he's gonnabecome a fisher of men, like
bringing people to encounterJesus, right? Well, why? John

(45:20):
tells us here in John 21 he saysthe nets were not torn. They
have this massive catch of fish.
But he goes, even still, thenets were not torn. Why does he
include that? Well, if youremember the earlier story where
the nets were torn, there's asense. Well, when Jesus first
called Peter, he wasn't readyfor the gathering of the

(45:40):
nations. It was coming like heand the church. You have the
church like the boat, likePeter. And the church were not
yet ready. Peter and thedisciples were not yet ready for
the miraculous catch of fish,the in gathering of the nations
that God was going to bring.
They still needed three yearswith Jesus, walking with him. He
still needed to go through thedeath. You know Jesus, death and
resurrection. He'd go throughhis own failure and so on. There
was a lot he had to go through,but now Jesus is reinstating

(46:03):
him, and Pentecost is about tocome. And when Pentecost comes,
dude, Peter's going to lead thegathering of the nations.
There's going to be a miraculouscatch. Every nation, tribe and
tongue, is like entering intothe kingdom, you know. And
Peter's gonna get the helm ofthe ship. And now the nets will
not break, the boats will notsink like the church is ready,
you know? And so and so. I thinkthere's a picture here of

(46:24):
Peter's evangelistic calling,which, okay, side note, it's
really interesting. This is 153fish. What's going on with that
number, right? Well, I again, Ikind of argue make the case
every number in John issignificant. And I think here
there's one other place in theBible where the number 153 shows
up. And it's back in SecondChronicles two verse 17, where
King Solomon is like the glorydays of Israel. And King Solomon

(46:47):
says he took a census to findout all the Gentiles, all the
all the non Israelites who wereresiding in the land. They
basically the Gentiles who'dbeen gathered into the kingdom,
right? And the number was153,000 it's like 150,600 right?
600 right? And similar here, I'dsay the 153 fish. It's echoing
that one dude, Jesus is like thenew greater Solomon. Dude, he's

(47:08):
bringing in now, ushering in theglory days of God's kingdom. And
there's going to be thismiraculous catch, and in
gathering of the Gentiles, andthe nets won't break, the boat
will hold man. So for me, thatwas like, Whoa, mind blowing,
right? But to your originalquestion, what's she just doing
here with just doing here? Ithink he's reinstating Peter's
calling. And not only that, hethen walks Peter through his
biggest failure. And so the nextthing Jesus is cooking the fish

(47:31):
over a charcoal fire. Andthere's one other place that
that term charcoal fire showsup, and it's earlier in John's
gospel, when Jesus is going tobe crucified, and Peter is
outside, warming his hands bythe charcoal fire and denies
Jesus three times, right? And sowhen Peter smells the charcoal

(47:52):
fire, that scene like Dude, it'sevoking those memories. I think
part of what Jesus doing here,it's like I went recently to
showing my kids the house I grewup in, and the owners, new
owners, happened to be home, andso we stopped out front, and
they're like, oh, what's up, youknow? Like, hey, I grew up in
this house. Oh, do you want tocome inside? I'm like, Oh my
gosh. So we walk back in, and asI'm walking my kids through each

(48:12):
room, it's like, dude, oh, thisis where we snuck out or TPD our
neighbors. This is where my momused to cook spaghetti, you
know, and all like being inthose places, smelling the
smells in the yard, the smells,the sights, the location sound.
It's evoking all of thesememories. And similarly, I think
that's what Jesus is doing here.
It's like Dude, the catch offish, the charcoal fire. It's

(48:33):
evoking these memories forPeter, of the calling that he
thinks he's lost, of the hisfailure that Jesus is out to
redeem and restore, and yetJesus is walking him back into
those memories, not to guiltHim, not to shame him, not to
he's walking him back into thosepainful places redeem and to
restore and to bring him intohis calling. I think that's what

(48:53):
Jesus does in our life. Youknow, he'll take us back into
those hard places. But it's notto shame us are guilty. It's
it's to redeem and heal andrestore and make us whole

so good. Let's live into this restoration. He's
bringing that redeeming,restoring us. It's great. God is
on your side. A fantastic book.
If you talk to your readers,what hope do you have for this

book? Man, definitely. You know, my biggest
hope would be that in ourdarkest seasons, like when the
grenade goes off, your worldblows up, we're all gonna have
seasons where just stuff hitsthe fan and it feels like man,
God. Where are you in thatseason that we could lift our
eyes to the gospel to Jesus andfind man? He is the God who's on
our side. He's the creator who'sentered on our side of creation

(49:40):
to be with us. He's the Saviorwho stepped onto our side as the
guilty ones. You know, he wasinnocent to fight for us on the
cross. And he's the risen andascended one who's bringing his
side of heaven onto our side ofEarth, in us and through us. And
so my hope for readers wouldjust be that we could gain that
greater confidence and go. Andeven in the hard places, perhaps

(50:01):
especially the hard places, Godis with you. He's for you, and
he's ultimately on your side.

A couple quick questions here at the end, I
like to ask one. If you go backto your 21 year old self, what
advice

would you give? Oh, man, that's a great
question. I think it would be,you don't need to be smart
enough or nice enough to be okaywith God. You know, I longer
story. I go into the book. Partof this last season was
realizing, man, how much I,without even knowing it, had
learned this is how I belong. IfI could be smart enough, be nice
enough, I'll belong, have aplace in the table. And part of

(50:34):
what God's done this last seasonhas been to go, Yeah, your
belonging is not based on that.
It's based on my love for you,which is independent

of that, anything you've been reading or
watching lately you couldrecommend,

oh, man, great question, dang man. I'm
always reading a ton. I'm tryingto think of what's been the best
lately. I'm currently reading aguy named Newman, an older guy
on like, a development ofdoctrine, which is great, but
it's pretty kind of boring.
Actually. I think that's thebook I was reading last night. I
think most folks probably boredwith that. So, yeah,

anything else?
Come on, give it. Give mesomething, uh, something else
that you've been reading.

Yeah, definitely. Man, let's see what?
So I've been reading, actually,I've been reading a couple books
by Mary Carr. So for those youdon't know. So this is not a
theology or whatever, but she'sfamous for a memoir, you know.
And so I would recently read herbook on how to write memoir, not
because I'm wanting to writememoir per se, you know, but
just it's, it's been reallyfascinating. Kind of how she

(51:35):
processes her own money she'sreally famous for is going into
hard parts of her own story, andyet, processing those with a lot
of humility, but also a lot ofhonesty, and, you know, and
that. And so currently readingnow her third memoir, lit, you
know, which is her life, yeah,which has been really good. So I
guess that's been, that'sawesome, fun, fun lately, great.

(51:58):
Oh, I'll do one more. Actually,I'm sorry. One more, yeah. So my
daughter, and we just got backlast week, we did a 10 day road
trip down to California, and mydaughter's 15, she's got her
permit, and so she's preparingto drive, you know, she drove
the whole trip. She's preparingto get her license. And we did
an audio book on the way downthere, Unbroken by Laura
Hildebrand. It's the story ofLouis Zamperini, about 10 years

(52:19):
old. I never read it, but I acouple people recommended it. Oh
my gosh, it's so good. Like,just the book opens where it's
true story. You know, his planegot shot down, 46 days,
surviving on a raft in theAtlantic Ocean. So story opens,
he's on this raft, underneaththe raft, fighting off hundreds
of sharks is like a planeoverhead. Is like shooting
bullets in the water trying toget it's like a survival,

(52:40):
resilience story. It wasamazing. Yeah, so good. Awesome.

That's a great, great recommendation, Josh, God
is on your side. Availableanywhere books are sold. It's
great. Is there anywhere you'dlike to point people to? How can
they connect with you? Is thereanywhere you'd like them to get
the book?

Oh, that's awesome. You know, I'm on
Instagram primarily these days.
I have a website, Joshua Ryanbutler.com, so just my full
name, and yeah, it's out thereanywhere books are sold. If you
want to support Powell's booksmy local here in my hometown
here, they're a good, big oneyou can order from. But yeah,
it's out there wherever booksare sold. Awesome.

That's one of the reasons I would want to move
to Portland is Palace book. Haveyou been there before? I have it
is amazing. I grew up aboutthree hours north, and, yes,
just out of Tacoma. So I, youknow, been to Portland many
times, and I love it. ButPowell's books is one of my
favorites.

Yeah, it's like a whole square block, like
four stories tall. It's, yeah,it's pretty

amazing. Yeah, it's good. Well, Josh, thank you
for letting us know that God ison our side. Thank you for
diving deep into the book ofJohn. Let us know some of these
Old Testament echoes and theseone on one encounters Jesus has
with people and in the signsthat John has laid out for us.
So that points to the death andresurrection of Jesus, that He

(54:02):
could now then come and redeemand restore all things, and not
just on a macro level, he coulddo it for us on a micro level as
well, and that we could findhope in Him, that He is for us.
He is with us always, even if wedon't feel it, even if we don't
feel his presence, he is stillwith us, and he's still for us.
So thank you, Joshua isfantastic.

Thanks so much, Joshua, great, awesome.
Have a great day. You.

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Ep. 346 Joshua Ryan Butler - God is On Your Side

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 346 Joshua Ryan Butler - God is On Your Side