October 3, 2025 • 57 mins
Sharon Hodde Miller returns to Shifting Culture to talk about her new devotional, Gazing at God. Building on her earlier work in Free of Me, Sharon explores how the lies of insecurity and comparison keep us trapped in self-preoccupation and how the way of Jesus frees us to lift our eyes toward God and others. Together we talk about why self-esteem culture falls short, how worship reorients us when we spiral inward, the difference between healing the self and neglecting the self, what true success in the kingdom of God looks like, and how abiding in Christ becomes the foundation for real freedom. This is a hopeful and practical conversation about identity, healing, and the joy of gazing at God.
Sharon leads Bright City Church in Durham, NC with her husband, Ike, which they planted together in 2018. Sharon earned her M.Div. from Duke Divinity School, and her PhD from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, where she researched the topic of women and calling.
In addition to writing for sites like Christianity Today, She Reads Truth, Propel, Relevant, and more, she is the author of three books: Free of Me: Why Life Is Better When It’s Not about You, Nice: Why We Love to Be Liked And How God Calls Us to More, and The Cost of Control: Why We Crave It, the Anxiety it Gives Us, and the Real Power God Promises.
Sharon travels the country speaking at churches and conferences, and then she loves to return home to her three awesome kids!
Sharon's Books:
Sharon's Recommendations:
Subscribe to Our Substack: Shifting Culture
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@shiftingculturepodcast.com
Go to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.
Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Bluesky or YouTube
Consider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below
Contact me to advertise: jjohnson@shiftingculturepodcast.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sharon Hodde Miller (00:00):
Think those me centered scripts really
(00:02):
become loud, especially when youare alone. You You know the
enemy really corners ussometimes, and for us to
remember no, your hope isexactly the same as Peter's,
which is to not look down, don'tlook back, don't look inward,
look up to him.
Joshua Johnson (00:35):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, today I'm
joined again by Sharon HoddyMiller. Sharon has spent years
helping people name this hiddeninsecurities and comparisons
that weigh us down and steal ourjoy. Her first book free of me,
(00:57):
explore the gift of selfforgetfulness. What happens when
we stop making ourselves thecenter of the story and now in
our new devotional gazing atGod, she takes that invitation
further, showing us how to liftour eyes from the endless cycle
of self preoccupation and setour gaze on the one who defines
our worth and calls us beloved.
In this conversation, Sharon andI talk about the lies that keep
(01:19):
us locked in self doubt, what itlooks like to do the hard
interior work of healing withoutgetting stuck there, and how
worship becomes the practicethat reorients us toward God and
neighbor. We explore what realfreedom in Christ looks like in
the everyday realities ofministry, leadership and family
life, and why abiding in Christ,not achievement or recognition,
is the true measure of success.
(01:42):
Sharon's honesty, humility andwisdom shine through in this
conversation, I think you'llfind her insights challenging
and freeing, especially ifyou've ever felt crushed by
expectations, whether fromothers or from yourself. This is
a conversation about freedom,healing and the joy that comes
when our eyes are lifted up. Sojoin us. Here is my conversation
(02:05):
with Sharon. Hoddy Miller,Sharon, welcome back to shifting
culture. Excited to have youback
Sharon Hodde Miller (02:11):
on I know I was excited when I saw this on
my calendar today, getting tocatch up with you again.
Joshua Johnson (02:18):
Yes, it is good.
Last time we actually, we talkedabout the cost of control. And I
think something that that doesto us is actually does what
we're talking about today, isthat it makes us turn in on
ourselves. And so, I mean,you're building that from free
of me, your first book, and nowin this devotional you have
that's come out with free of me,your RE release, gazing at God.
(02:41):
We're talking about themovements of going in to figure
out who we are and who God sayswe are, and then going and
gazing back out at God and otherpeople figuring out how to love
God and love others. Take me onthe journey with you. Where did
this come from? And what wereyou struggling with when we're
(03:02):
trying to figure out how youcould get maybe a little more
confident? They were battlingsome self esteem, figuring out
who you were in the midst ofyour life and your faith.
Sharon Hodde Miller (03:14):
Yeah, well, if I can back up a little bit
and share kind of the backstoryfirst with my first book free of
me that released, I believe itwas in 2017 now, I was pregnant
with my daughter when itreleased, and now she's in
second grade. So that's how longago that released, which is kind
of crazy, but back then, whatled to that book on self
(03:39):
forgetfulness, essentially iswhat that book is about. Was
that I had been in ministry forprobably about a decade at that
point, and at first, when I wasfirst called to ministry, I
found it to be inherentlymeaningful, like just, you know,
writing, speaking, teaching, allof that. I really just enjoyed
(04:01):
it for the calling itself, theways that I learned about
Scripture and Jesus. Butsomewhere along the way, my
focus shifted, and the best wayI can describe what was sort of
happening in my interior world,and it's so honestly humbling to
admit, because ministry is, youknow, fundamentally about Jesus,
(04:25):
but what was happening inside ofme is I started looking at my
peers who are kind of doing thesame work I was and comparing
myself to them, or I was lookingat people just a few steps ahead
of me in Ministry, and needingtheir acknowledgement or their
affirmation. And, yeah, and soif I if I wasn't comparing well
(04:46):
to my peers, or if I wasn'tgetting acknowledgement from
people that I looked up to, itwas really shattering. And I
remember putting things online,putting things out into. World
and sort of expecting aparticular response, and if I
didn't get that feeling reallyinsecure, feeling like a
failure, feeling like, what'swrong with me? And I remember
(05:09):
having this sort of bottommoment where I was just sobbing
one night, and my husband washolding me, and I was like, why
am I so insecure about ministry,this work that I'm doing, like,
why am I comparing myself? Andso that sent me on a journey of
trying to understand myinsecurity. And I did it the way
(05:32):
I approached it, the way I thinkour self esteem culture sort of
teaches us to which is throughaffirmation, you know, looking
at what does the Bible say aboutme and how God loves me and
thinks about me and created mewith a purpose, and reading
books that were kind of to thatend as well. And at the end of
(05:52):
that journey, it was probablylike six months of just research
and working on myself and tryingto internalize these truths. I
realized that it had not helpedme at all. It had not touched
what whatever was underneaththat insecurity, really. And
that's when I sort of backed upand re approached and realized
(06:15):
there's something else going onhere. And one person who whose
voice really helped me identifythat was actually Tim Keller. He
has this little book called thefreedom of self forgetfulness.
You can read it in like 45minutes, really easy read, but
he helped me name something thatI really unpack more of and free
(06:35):
of me, which is that there areactually two causes of
insecurity, but our culture hasreally only identified one or
equipped us to deal with that,and that is low self esteem,
which is is real. I would definethat as not seeing yourself the
way God sees you. And the gospelof Jesus, Christ is our answer
(06:58):
to low self esteem, absolutelybut there's a second cause of
insecurity that most of us nevereven think about our culture is
not equipped to address, andthat is self preoccupation. When
we make ourselves the center ofour story, the center of
whatever it is we're doing, ormake something about us that is
(07:18):
not about us, it means thatthing then becomes a referendum
on our worth and our value insome way. And realizing that was
actually what had happened to myministry, is I had had made it
about me. It was a referendum onme, the job I was doing, the
quality of my work, whatever itis, and that is why it had
(07:42):
become so heavy and was stealingall of my joy. And so that was
the birthplace of free of me,and I've continued to walk that
out. It's been really that bookwas really helpful for me when
we planted a church, actually,shortly after that book
released, because I don't knowif you know this, but church
(08:04):
planting is also there's manyopportunities for humiliation
and loneliness, and so it was areally great message that I
could continue to preach tomyself. But, and I know this is
like the longest answer to yourquestion, but gazing at God,
part of the reason I wrote thisfollow up devotional is I
(08:25):
realized I still had more tosay. And one of the things that
I discovered since releasingfree of me and one person that
actually another voice thathelped me to identify this was
Chuck DeGroat and his book whennarcissism comes to church,
because he and that book talksabout how people who struggle
(08:46):
with narcissism that self focusunderneath it is actually shame,
like usually it's a wound. And Iwas seeing that even in my own
ministry, like in our church,where we're at very often, when
someone is running everythingthat's happening to them through
a filter of self. There'sactually like a wound there. And
(09:07):
so to just invite people to youneed to just raise your gaze.
You need to just focus on God.
Love God and love others. Whilethat is important, it will also
be very difficult if we nevername Why are you focusing on
yourself? Because sometimes itis just sin, sometimes it's just
pride, it's just vanity, butsometimes there's actually a
wound that needs tending to. Andso that is the the arc of gazing
(09:30):
at God is for a book calledgazing at God. I think people
will be surprised by how muchtime I devote to the self, but
it's you have to understand whatis happening in your interior
world, and once you can name itand tame it, then you have this,
this freedom to focus on God andothers as well.
Joshua Johnson (09:55):
Yeah, I think the the things that have really
helped me in this area isreally. Realizing, from a lot of
different voices and from Godthat our identity and who we are
is received rather than comingfrom inside of ourselves. And I
think when we start to focus onwho we are, I mean the self
esteem movement, it's we'retrying to come up with who we
(10:16):
are by ourselves. We're tryingto figure out, like our
identity, our worth, our value,all from me, it's still a focus
on myself. And while that can begood, some of those
affirmations, a lot of timesthat when we're not receiving
something from God from theoutside and knowing who we are
(10:38):
from him, it's going to eat atus. We're going to continue to
say, Am I really this? Am I justtelling myself this? What is
that shift for us to look thatit's not just about turning in
or like focusing just ourselvesby ourselves, but it's something
(11:01):
that we need to receive, and itcomes from the outside.
Sharon Hodde Miller (11:05):
Yeah, I mean that that conversation
around identity is, gosh, thatis a that's a huge conversation.
And I know that we I justmentioned Tim Keller, and I
thought you were about to saythis, because Tim Keller talks
about how the good news of JesusChrist is that identity is not
achieved, but is, in fact,received. One thing that I think
(11:27):
the self esteem movement. Sowhen I was researching free of
me, I researched the self esteemmovement and why it ultimately
failed, because it didn't yieldthe generation of confident
young people that it essentiallypromised. And what it did yield
(11:50):
was not more confident youngpeople. They were just as
insecure as ever, but they weremore self absorbed. And I think
ultimately the reason why itfailed is that, on the one hand,
it got right the importance ofthese messages of of truth and
(12:12):
speaking affirmation of buildinglike. You know, in some ways,
what it is attempting to harnessis showing our kids
unconditional love like, I thinkthat's at the end of the day,
what the self esteem movement istrying to do, where I think it
ultimately failed, is that theceiling was too low. Of like,
(12:35):
what it was hoping to achieve,that we are created for more
than ourselves, that the thehuman, you know, the reason God
invented humanity was ultimatelyto point back to him. We are
made in His image. And so wehave this, this purpose, this
(12:59):
this meaning that has theseechoes of the infinite and these
echoes of eternity. And what theself esteem movement is
basically doing is saying no,like your highest purpose is for
you to like yourself. And whenwe lower that ceiling of of
human purpose, I think thatcreates its own sort of
(13:19):
sickness. And I think we sawlike the results of that, and so
I think we have to be careful.
And I'm realizing just now, I'mnot really answering your
question about identity at all,but I think that it had, you
know, benefits, like, I want tobe really careful not to just
say it's all garbage. Like, Ithink it was addressed, trying
to address a real problem, butthe ceiling was just too low,
(13:42):
and ultimately bore that out. SoI know that didn't
Joshua Johnson (13:49):
Okay. I want to stick on that we'll get back to
identity and we'll come back toit, because there's a lot in
there that I want to talk about,but if I think of our culture
today, so it feels like now, ifthere is something that I don't
like in maybe politicaladministrations, or if there's
something I don't like in mycommunity that is happening that
(14:11):
is outside of myself, outside ofmy control, if my highest value
is to like myself, if I don'tlike What is happening, I don't
just say, hey, maybe in ourcommunity, we just have to work
for, you know, a greater thegreater good for our community.
We have to actually see wherethe problems are and actually go
(14:32):
and be with other people in themidst of it, it actually starts
to cultivate a lie to ourselves,that what is happening now is
just not good for me, right? Itis. It is a bad thing for me. So
I feel bad about the state ofthe world. I feel bad then about
myself, and then there isnothing that I could do about
(14:54):
it. And so I just wallow inthis, you know, self pity, that
because something. Is happeningoutside of myself, without my
control. I really don't knowwhat to do with it, because now
I don't like the world, andbecause of that, I don't like
myself. How do we reorientourselves in the midst of even
(15:15):
even that? And we could take itas a microcosm level of like
people around you doing thingsthat you don't like and you end
up being Hey, it's really aboutme. So this isn't working.
Sharon Hodde Miller (15:27):
That is one of the big limitations when we
make things about us that areultimately not about us, whether
that is our children, you know,or some issue that is happening
in the world when we aretreating like our political
(15:48):
party, for example, when we'retreating these things as if they
are an extension of us, as ifthey are a reflection of us, We
are not actually going to seethat thing clearly anymore.
We're no longer going to, forexample, with our children.
We're no longer seeing them forwho they are. We're just
(16:10):
saddling them with more of ourown insecurities. We're not
going to be able to see ourpolitical party clearly because
we feel the need to defend it,because it is an extension of
ourselves, and so ultimately,when we make things about us
that are not about us, it isinhibiting our ability to see
(16:32):
the world clearly. It isinhibiting our ability to be
honest about what is happeningin front of us. It's all just
being run through this filter ofself, and so that's why it is.
It's really important as aChristian discipline for us to
be able to identify. I haveattached this thing to my
identity, going back to thattopic of identity, because as
(16:56):
soon as that happens, we are nolonger going to be dealing
honestly with whatever thatthing is.
Joshua Johnson (17:04):
I think that's helpful. So then what is? Then
this balance between likelooking outward, gazing at God,
gazing at others, and loving ourneighbors well, and then working
on our shame and our scripts andnaming where we are and actually
doing the hard work of healingso that we could look out, what
(17:30):
is that balance? Becausesometimes we focus too much on
one side or the other and weforget both of those sides.
Sharon Hodde Miller (17:37):
Yeah, exactly so on the one end, I
would say. And another thingthat our culture does really
well is this self awareness, youknow, interior examination,
understanding the self. We haveall these different tools now.
We have the Enneagram. We've gotStrengths Finder. We have all
these different ways ofunderstanding ourselves and
(17:58):
understanding our trauma fromour childhood, whatever it is.
And those things are allvaluable, but within the right
context. And so being able tosay, you do need to understand
these things, I think it was, Ican't remember if it's John
Calvin. I quoted him in gazingat God. It says, There is no
(18:18):
knowledge of God withoutknowledge of self and so that
interior work is essential. It'svery, very important. But where
Christians would diverge frommaybe a secular understanding of
self examination is, why are wedoing this? That the point is
not just self actualization. Thepoint is not just liking
(18:42):
yourself. One kind of metaphor Ithink about often is, you know,
Scripture uses this metaphor ofrunning a race, like we have
this race of faith. You can'trun that, that race if you have
a broken foot, and so if you'rehobbling along, if you're
distracted because of the painof this foot, you need to take
(19:04):
some time to sit down and givethat foot an opportunity to
heal. But if you were to makeyour entire life about that
foot, if you were to move intothe hospital and just live
there, that is its own kind ofsickness. And so for us to
remember that, no, you wereactually intended to run like
(19:24):
that. That is the point of yourhealing. So that's that's one
end that I think Christianityoffers a correction to why we do
this interior work, that it doesmatter. It is an important part
of this process, so that you'renot just losing the self, but
you need to heal the self inorder to be free of the self. On
the other side of it, I wouldsay there is a tendency, kind of
(19:48):
on the back end, to think I ampracticing self forgetfulness. I
am practicing self denial, whenwhat you are actually doing is
self neglect. You arepracticing. It self rejection or
a loss of the self. Andironically, that happens because
(20:09):
you are finding your identity insomething other than Jesus. So
one way this plays out a lot isfor mothers, where we think that
I'm called to be this, thismartyr, and really it's because
of this expectation that this iswhat a good mother does. This is
how I assert my identity as agood mother is by neglecting
(20:33):
myself, essentially. But it alsoplays out for pastors. I see
this temptation in pastors alot, where they are, the first
ones to arrive and the last onesto leave, and they're always on
call, and they're, you know,they look like the greatest
servant leader. You know,they're so humble, and they're
so self sacrificing, and they'rejust a hero of the faith. And
(20:57):
really, what it is is they haveover identified with this job,
that this being a pastor,there's kind of a loss of self
where they're trying to findthemselves in this job, in this
role, in this calling, andbecause of that, they are
actually neglecting themselves.
They are not taking care ofthemselves. They're not
(21:18):
practicing like healthy rhythmsand so on, on both ends, just
this front end of like healingbut but also in the ways that
that loss of self sort of drivesus, they reinforce the
importance of being healthy andaffirming the goodness of of
yourself, and also that you findyourself ultimately in Jesus and
none of these other roles. Thoseare all really important pre
(21:41):
prerequisites to freedom fromthe self. All right,
Joshua Johnson (21:49):
so you just named a really important thing
for us that I don't want tomiss, but I want to get back
into some of this identity andreceiving identity, but before
we do that, so then you justtalk about somebody as a pastor,
as a leader, saying everything'sgoing to be about me. I'm going
to be the greatest servantleader, most humble man alive,
(22:12):
woman alive, like I am, the mosthumble I'm going to go and
serve. What it seems to me isthat what they're doing is that,
instead of trying to be anauthoritarian, hierarchical
leader with lots of control,what they do that's a pyramid
with them at the top, it seemsto me like they invert the
pyramid and then they puteverything on their shoulders,
(22:36):
so it's still All about them andand, but they're trying to hold
everything up by themselves,right? And so it's going to
crush them, and it'll crush thechurch and everyone around them.
So what is health in that looklike, especially in leadership
and pastoral leadership withcongregations and churches and
(23:00):
ministry, how do we reorientinto a healthy dynamic when with
what you're talking about?
Sharon Hodde Miller (23:09):
Yeah, that's such a that's a really
interesting way of framing it.
And I'm gonna process this sortof verbally with you for a
moment, because I'm having,like, a new I'm having a new
thought in real time. But what'sinteresting to me about it is
almost like, you know, I talkedabout over identifying with your
(23:32):
work, but people who do thatalso over identify with Jesus,
which you wouldn't think is likea thing, but it is in the sense
that you receive your identityfrom Christ ultimately, but you
are not Christ. You know you arecalled to be Jesus to people,
(23:55):
but not for people. And I thinkthat is, it's such a temptation
in ministry to be Jesus forpeople, primarily because people
want you to be Jesus for them,and when you are not, when you
are found to have flaws, whenyou make mistakes, people are so
(24:18):
disappointed in you, as if youhave failed to be who you are
supposed to be, when that isn'ttrue, you've just failed to be
Jesus, who you're never calledto be. And so I do think there
is kind of like a distinctionthere where we are called to be
like Jesus. We are not called tobe Jesus, for him, for other
(24:42):
people. So that's my real timeprocessing of what you just
named.
Joshua Johnson (24:52):
Well, it's so hard to reorient the body of
Christ into a position like thatand not a. Elevating someone
that's not Jesus to the positionof Jesus, and so if anything
actually then, then fails andhurts, all accusation is going
to go on you, right? If, if Iview you, Sharon as my pastor,
(25:16):
you're, you're Jesus to me, andyou fail in some sort which we
will, because we're not Jesus,we're human. I'm going to look
at you and go, Okay, you failedme. I'm going to just rail
against you, and then I'm goingto maybe leave or, you know,
cause some dissension, becauseit's not right. It's not good.
(25:38):
And so that's a reorientationwork for a culture with people
and I mean, and it starts, youknow, it starts with with us,
who are actually doing some ofthis, leading that we have to
reorient ourselves to somethingdifferent. Yeah. So what does
that start to look like,reorienting an entire culture
(26:00):
through making sure that we areokay, and not saying I am Jesus.
Sharon Hodde Miller (26:06):
Yeah, I think for me personally, I can
speak for me personally, thatreorientation, it's really
painful, because I think thereare the narcissists, there are
the power hungry leaders, that'stheir own thing, but for those
of us who our heart genuinelyand truly is to serve our
(26:30):
people, to create, to build,churches that are like a taste
of the kingdom, that are safe,that are life giving for the
sheep when we fail, orespecially when we are
misunderstood, like when we areaccused of things that we didn't
(26:52):
do we didn't say, like, Isn'tour heart? It is so painful
because we know, like, my heartfor you is is good, and I want
to, I want to defend myself inthis moment, so that you
understand, like my intentionswere pure, or, you know, I know
this was a mistake, but it was awell intentioned one, like
(27:13):
whatever it was, that has been astruggle for me, but to
recognize that, that even inthose moments where people think
poorly of me, are disappointedin me, is actually the
invitation for a correction tooccur in both their heart and in
(27:36):
my own That is an open door toremember, hey, if they leave my
church and they're disappointedin me, but they still love
Jesus, that's a win like, like,I'm not trying to win them to
me, I will disappoint them, butif I can still respond in a way
(27:59):
that holds on to, points to, youknow, whatever it is their
relationship to Jesus, that thatis still a win. And so those
opportunities for me ofhumiliation have have actually
been some of the most importantmoments, where, in my own heart,
(28:19):
I am reminded, like, what I havebeen called to, and what this
work ultimately is, but we tendto fight them in those moments.
We tend to want to, like, sitdown with the person and
explain, like, if I can justtell them this way to explain
and to maybe just reframe it asmaybe this was actually for me
(28:42):
to remember that this is I'm notbuilding this church on my
shoulders.
Joshua Johnson (28:46):
That's really good. So take me to the process
of finding out, what are thelies that we're believing,
rejecting those lies, receivingtruth from God, and the truth
that all of us are a belovedchild of God. We're in Christ,
and we have then purpose in theworld, right? We have something
that we get to do. So there aresome some gifts. So what is
(29:10):
receiving that true identity,who we really are, really like,
by rejecting some of the liesthat we have believed in
ourselves?
Sharon Hodde Miller (29:20):
Yeah, this goes back to why I wrote gazing
at God again, is those lies,ultimately, are the things that
keep us focused on ourselves. Ithink as long as the enemy can
feed us these lies about, youknow, you aren't good enough.
You were excluded. You, you,you, it's, it's fascinating to
(29:41):
me. There's studies done on oneof the tells of people
struggling with depression isthat their language becomes very
me centered. And so peoplestruggling with depression use a
lot more me use a lot more. Imine all of that. And so there's
this link. Between self focusand just overall spiritual,
(30:05):
mental, emotional unhealth. Andso being able to do that into
your work, and it's not a I havefinished, and now I'm healed,
you know, kind of a thing, butfor me, like one of the things,
one of the days, is about justnoticing your scripts, like, am
(30:25):
I using a lot of me languageright now? And usually that's
like a clue to me, that I haveturned the narrative inward, and
that I need to not only seethat, but but one of the things
for me that has actually set mefree from those me centered
narratives is remembering I am,my identity like the most
(30:48):
important thing about me is thatI am loved by God, and I don't
have to prove myself. I don'thave to defend myself, I don't
have to explain to anyone who Iam, because he already knows.
And that's, that's the beautifulthing about the gospel, that I
think there has been a way oftalking about self denial, that
(31:12):
is the obliteration of self,that your self is bad, and for
us to remember, no, theresurrection is total like it is
all of you. And so that meansthat God has a vested interest
in redeeming every ounce of whoyou are, and everything that God
created is good, and that alsoincludes you. And so for us to
(31:37):
use that as sort of a home basethat I am not operating out of,
a place where I have to provemyself, where I need to earn my
worth, my standing, whatever itis I am free of having to do all
of that, that posturing typework, so that I can instead
focus on loving God and lovingothers and so a lot of that for
(32:01):
me, I never would have thoughtlike when I first became a
Christian, the love of God wasnot a difficult concept for me
to understand, because I havereally great parents and I've
always experienced unconditionallove, but It was in ministry
that was when I really needed toreturn to this very simple but
(32:27):
very profound truth that I amloved, and it is only out of
that place that I can operate inhealth and ministry.
Joshua Johnson (32:36):
It's so hard to operate in health because it is
a barrage of false expectationsput upon you by yourself and by
other people, and then trying tofigure out, what are the real
expectations God has for you,which you know God is like, Hey,
I love you, and you don't haveto do anything, but I have
called you to a purpose, toactually live in in such a way
(32:59):
and actually be faithful. Andthat's that's hard. So in the
midst of of this and denyingourselves and seeing what God is
up to and receiving things, whatdoes success look like in the
kingdom of God? Like, one of thethings that we think is, I don't
know, flashy ministry, and thenit ends up being, look at what
(33:20):
I've done or like, Hey, I'mcounting, you know, whatever
we're counting. We like to counta lot in Christian work, but
what really is success in thekingdom of God when we're
actually then we've worked onour lives and our scripts, we've
received our true identity, andwe're starting to deny ourself
(33:42):
so that we can gaze at God andothers. What does success look
like?
Sharon Hodde Miller (33:46):
That is such a great question. So for
me, I It's funny, like thinkingabout it, like, I don't know why
I am, like, weepy all of asudden, I think it's because, I
don't know about you, but thegrace of God, the more I
(34:08):
understand it, the richer andlike more beautiful it becomes.
And I think that when I firststarted out in ministry, and
this was the pressure, wasthinking, I need to do, like,
great things, you know, I needto see this many people, like,
understand, come to, know, findand follow Jesus, you know, I
(34:31):
that is what like success in thekingdom means, or getting a kind
of the kingdom, getting momentumIn our culture, you know,
whatever it is, and what I haveshifted on throughout my life,
throughout my leadership, isI've continued to like scale
(34:53):
down the size of what I thinksuccess actually looks like, to
the point, yeah. Sense ofbelieving that, at the end of
the day, success is really justabiding in Christ, like, that's
what it is. You know, it's, it'snot any bigger than that, like
(35:14):
we, we replicate who we are. Andso in terms of like, our
influence, God will will takecare of that. And so our, you
know, the size of what we'recalled to is, is rather modest,
but incredibly important.
Because when we are trying to dothese great things, I think that
is when we ultimately lose theessential things, when we lose
(35:37):
ourselves. And so it's just thethe lightness of knowing what,
what God has called me to at theend of the day is just to enjoy
him, you know. And the more thatI rest in that, the more freedom
I experience in that, thatthat's ultimately like his
(35:59):
heart, and then just let him dothe rest
Joshua Johnson (36:05):
in this world of self esteem, some of this thing
of like resting in Jesus andResting in God means I don't
have to do anything. I just haveto, you know, which, at one
point is really true. But what Ilove in John 15, the abide in me
passage is like, if you're goingto abide in My love, you will
(36:27):
obey my commands. If you obey mycommands, you will abide in My
love. It's actually they go handin hand. We think of commands as
being tough and heavy and hard,but it's really for the
flourishing of our lives as youknow what he is talking to us.
And is the greatest command isto love God, and the second is
(36:47):
like it, to love our neighbor asourselves. And so this abiding
and this loving towards God andother people go hand in hand,
talk a little bit about, then,the commands of Jesus, and
because in this culture that welive in, command seems to be a
(37:08):
bad thing, because you'reputting something hard on me,
and I don't want to becontrolled. I don't want you to
do anything. But what? Whyshould we follow the commands of
Christ?
Sharon Hodde Miller (37:20):
Yeah, this, this journey, really reframed
those first and second greatestcommands for me, because you're
exactly right when we think ofthe 10 Commandments, when we
think of the law, when we thinkof any instruction from God, it
seems like these are the rules.
This is how you be a goodChristian, and that there is no
(37:44):
life in that you know that is areally heavy yoke. But what this
journey taught me is that whenJesus says the first commandment
is to love God, what he wassaying is, because this will set
you free like this. This is thepath. This is the way out of
(38:06):
this, this pit of smallness andself focus and living for
lesser, unworthy purposes this.
This is the way. And so itreally helped me to reframe
these. These are two sort ofropes out of that pit, in a
(38:28):
sense, like the path to rescue,which is just such a different
way than I had ever thoughtabout those two commands.
Joshua Johnson (38:35):
How does this path to rescue work? Then, like,
is it? How do we get out of thatpit by actually loving God.
Sharon Hodde Miller (38:43):
So I I tease this out more actually, in
free of me and for me, some ofthis actually, I came to it by
way ironically of my counselor.
She was talking about how ourthoughts, our trains of
thoughts, are almost like theselocomotives, and we've got to
(39:06):
figure out how to stop thetrain. And so when you're in
these me spirals of, you know,what are people going to think
of me? Why didn't they applaudme? Thank me. Include me. You
know, whatever is your mecentered train of thought, like,
how do you stop the train? Andwhat I eventually stumbled upon,
(39:29):
and it's interesting, becausesince writing free of me, I
discovered there's a lot ofresearch on this. Isn't
something that I invented,there's actually, this is like a
legitimate practice. But Ithought, okay, if I am
struggling with me centerthoughts, then I need to, like,
(39:50):
physically redirect my brain toGod. And so I went through, I
combed through, especially thePsalms. And just looked for
descriptions of his character.
And then I created a Notes appin my phone where I listed them
all out. And when I noticedmyself just spiraling with those
(40:10):
thoughts, I would go and I wouldjust read through that list
about how he is kind, he ispatient, he is long suffering.
He is slow to anger. He is ourrock, our refuge, you know, all
those different things. And itredirected my my brain off of
myself and back onto him. Andinitially, when I first started
doing this, I would put my notesup away, and then my brain would
(40:33):
go, like, immediately back tothat thing. And so I'd have to
pull my notes up again and justlike, read through it. But
eventually it became like asecond nature, where I didn't
even need my notes app. I couldjust, you know, rehearse it by
heart. But what I realized I wasdoing at the end of the day is
(40:54):
just what Peter was doing whenhe was in the ocean. You know,
it's just redirecting my gazeoff of the waves, you know, onto
Jesus. That's what worship is,in a nutshell. And I think that
also redefined for me, whatworship is that what we're doing
(41:16):
is directing our gaze onto theactual source of life and
security and peace and and hope.
That's what worship is. And sowhat, what walked me out of it,
in a nutshell, was worship,which sounds like very
Christian, but I'm telling youlike it also it worked. It
(41:37):
worked. So because
Joshua Johnson (41:41):
we're thinking, we're putting our gaze on God,
what I love about that story ofJesus walking on water. And then
Peter said, Hey, can I come outtoo? And he says, yes, I've
always, you know, in the past,as I was reading that, it struck
me recently, just in the lastfew weeks, I read that story
again, and a lot of I always go,man. He lost his gaze on Jesus,
(42:02):
so he fell, but he was the onlyone who got out of the boat. He
actually was brave enough tosay, I'm going to get out on
that water. And he tried, and hewent, and he believed in such a
way that he actually took a stepout of the boat. And what that
does to me is putting my gaze onJesus helps me put that step out
(42:27):
of the boat. But I know that aI'm not going, it's not going to
be perfect the rest of my life.
Right now, I got out of thatpit. I put my gaze on him, and
man, well done. Like, good job,Peter. Like, none of the other
disciples did it. They didn'tsay anything. They're like, they
were just freaking out thatthere's this ghost here. They
(42:47):
were scared, right? And he waslike, Okay, I'm coming. I'm
doing it. So where is the theactual for us, not just like
looking but actually steppingout of the boat and saying, We
have to take a step as well.
Sharon Hodde Miller (43:06):
It's funny.
You say that because I justmaybe two nights ago, did
devotions with my only one of mykids has been baptized, and
he's, like, really hungry tolearn about Scripture. He's 10.
It's just amazing. And so everynight we pick a passage, we pick
a story, and he reads it outloud, and then we just talk
through it. And so two nightsago, we read that story, and we
(43:30):
just talked through it, and Italked to him about exactly the
thing that you said that strikesme so often, especially as a
church planter, that Peter wasthe only one who got out of the
boat. And what that means, Imean, there's a lot it means
there's something to be said foryou are safer in the waves with
(43:52):
Jesus than you are in thecomfort of the boat. But what
that also means is that steppingout of the boat is incredibly
lonely, and I wonder what thedisciples thought about Peter
when he was doing that, like ifhe thought they thought he was
(44:12):
crazy, if they thought he wasweird, you know, who knows what
they thought? Who knows whatthey said? But anytime you step
out in faith, it is going to belonely, and people aren't going
to follow you, people that youlove, and sometimes they will
even criticize you. They willquestion your motives. And that
(44:33):
was something I was completelyunprepared for, but for us to
not look down, not look back,not to ask, Is it me? You know,
did I do something wrong? Am I?
Did I mishear God, whatever itis, again, I think those me
centered scripts really becomeloud, especially when you are
(44:56):
alone. You You know, the enemyreally core. Honors us
sometimes, and for us toremember, no, your hope is
exactly the same as Peter's,which is to not look down, don't
look back, don't look inward.
Look up to him
Joshua Johnson (45:12):
when you hear that. So if you're receiving
like, Hey, this is some of yourpurpose. This is where you're
going. You feel a call by Godsomewhere, and saying this is a
purpose. It reminds me somethinglike like Mother Teresa, as she
goes in, she starts herministry, and she feels most of
her life that she actuallydoesn't hear then the voice of
(45:34):
God, or the feel the presence ofGod. But she stood the course
and stuck to it. And it was noteasy. I was just talking to, you
know, I was talking to ourpastor as we were in an elder
retreat, and he was telling thestory of him working with Mother
Teresa for as a, as a young kid,like 18 years old, on a YWAM
(45:57):
outreach and worked with
Unknown (45:59):
Mother Teresa, yeah, like, he actually worked with
her. That's amazing
Joshua Johnson (46:03):
for the Yeah.
And so they would, what wouldthey? They would go down the
street, pick up people that had,like, all these sores on them
about to die. They would gatherthem. So he would just take
people out of trucks, hold them,and then place them in beds. And
they would all that they woulddo in that place, would just
clean the source of people andeither prepare them to die or
(46:27):
then take care of the dead thatwouldn't have been able to take
being taken care of. Like thisis hard work, like and and she
goes, I'm called to this. Andthen doesn't feel the presence
of God for a long time. But shesays, I'm going to continue to
do this because I heard thecall. That's the most amazing
thing to me. And like, what doesit look like to stay the course?
(46:52):
In the midst of all of this,we're gazing at God. Said, I'm
I'm looking at you. But youknow, especially for people
probably around our age, aswe're going through these, these
even transitions from fromyoung, young life into to older
age, maybe midlife transitions.
(47:15):
There's such a time when we'relike, I don't know what I'm
doing and where I'm going, am Igoing to change? What does it
look like to stay the course andcontinue to say I'm going to
gaze at God even if I don't feelit?
Sharon Hodde Miller (47:29):
Yeah, I would say feeling the presence
of God is a grace that we arenot constantly promised. And I
think for so many of us, myselfincluded, it's important to know
that, because when you firstdiscern that call, very often it
(47:51):
is accompanied by reallyemotional experience of God,
like it's very often dramatic.
Maybe you're at a conference,maybe you get a vision like,
whatever it is, but it'soverwhelming. It engages, you
know, all of your senses likeyou you feel God on this, like
visceral level. And I think alot of times we can spend the
(48:13):
rest of our lives kind ofchasing after that feeling when
that wasn't really the point. Ithink that feeling typically
gives us a good bit of claritythat we need for the road ahead,
but at the end of the day, justeven, like, honestly, knowing,
because we are whole people,that things like depression,
(48:35):
depression dulls our likephysical ability to sense God,
it dulls our ability to senseanything. And so if you are
going through a season ofdepression and you don't feel
God, it's not because he's left.
You're just in a season ofdepression. That's just what
happens during that. But nothinglike has actually changed about
(48:57):
his character. And so for us toremember that gazing at God is
not about chasing after anexperience of the transcendent.
It is about reminding ourselveswhat is ultimately fixed,
immovable truth, that these arethe things that do not change,
(49:19):
regardless of our circumstances,regardless of how we feel at any
given moment. And that is whatwe stand on, that that is what
gazing at God is about.
Joshua Johnson (49:30):
It's good. So what hope do you have for people
pick up this devotional gazingat God and maybe free of me as
well. What do you hope thatpeople can get from this.
Sharon Hodde Miller (49:41):
My hope is that people would experience
actual freedom in Christ,because that is what it gave me.
You know, I think we talk aboutfreedom, sometimes very fi.
Figuratively, metaphorically,like, Yes, I have freedom. I'll
(50:05):
experience it fully, you know,one day in glory. But honestly,
this is, and it's part of thereason why I revisited it with a
devotional. Is this second tofinding Christ. This was the
second greatest liberation of mylife. It continues to be a
(50:25):
source of freedom, because in ain a role, especially as leading
a church, you are constantlyevaluated by the people in your
church, on the job you're doingas a preacher, as a you know,
manager of staff, fundraiser,like all these different things,
you're constantly beingmeasured, and that is just death
(50:48):
to the soul. And so this, thistoolkit of self forgetfulness,
has helped me to put all of thatnoise, kind of in its proper
place, and in some cases, toactually receive it as a tool of
my own sanctification, and toremember I don't actually have
to win anyone to myself, that ifanyone doesn't like me, that is
(51:13):
fine, because this isn't thischurch isn't about me, it is
about Jesus. And so that's myhope, is that if people are
realizing that their ministry,their calling, whatever it is,
is just a lot heavier than itever needed to be, because your
own identity, your worth is, isbound up in it, that this would
(51:35):
be a path that helps you to kindof disentangle those things so
you can walk in freedom.
Joshua Johnson (51:41):
Yes, this is not hyperbole, but this is one of
the greatest things to help youin your life, both free of me
and gazing at God, is actuallyto bring about greater freedom.
It is one of the most helpfulthings that I have read and many
years. And so I would put it onthe on the shelf with a few
other things that are verysimilar to this. But this is a
(52:05):
fantastic resource. It issomething that I really believe
our culture desperately needs. Ireally want people, if they
haven't read free of me yet, togo and get it and just pass it
out to the your entire churchand all the congregation and do
this devotional as you'rewalking with this gazing at God,
(52:27):
I I want to emphasize I say howmuch I enjoy books a lot on this
podcast, because I really dolove a lot of the books I read,
but this is one of the mostimportant things for you in your
Life, so go and get this. It'sreally, really good. Sharon, how
can people connect with you? Isthere anywhere you'd like to
(52:48):
point people to?
Sharon Hodde Miller (52:49):
I'm most active on Instagram, just Sharon
H Miller is where they can findme. Perfect.
Joshua Johnson (52:56):
Sounds good. I'd love to just end with a
recommendation from you. Soanything you've been reading or
watching lately, you couldrecommend,
Sharon Hodde Miller (53:03):
oh, my goodness, how much time do you
have? I just started so I'vebeen reading books about
resilience, and so I justfinished a book called
regenerative performance byJames Hewitt, and it's his stuff
on sleep. Was really, reallyinteresting to me, just kind of
like habit. He was debunking alot of myths that we have about,
(53:27):
like, why caffeine is bad, orthings like, a lot of it was
kind of setting me free, becausehe also said, like, if you're
night owl, like you'rebiologically designed that way,
like, lean into it. And then Ijust started a book called
shatterproof by Tasha Urich, andit's, it's about resilience as
well, but also some of the likemyths around resilience that
(53:50):
ultimately crush us. And so bothof those books have been if you
are someone who is looking forto dig deeper into resiliency
and leadership. I've enjoyedboth of them.
Joshua Johnson (54:03):
Awesome. That's great. Well, Sharon, thank you
for this conversation. It tooksome some tangents and turns,
which I didn't expect, but werefantastic. And I think we really
went deep and hopefully helpedsome people along the way. And
this, this free of me andgazing. God is a fantastic
resource. Well done. Thank youfor going on the journey
(54:23):
yourself. And these are the bestbooks. The best resources are
ones where people have wrestleddeeply with what they are giving
to the world, that it's not justout of duty, but is actually
about lived experience. And sothank you for going on that
journey to help many, manypeople. So thank you. Applause.
Think those me centered scripts really
(00:02):
become loud, especially when youare alone. You You know the
enemy really corners ussometimes, and for us to
remember no, your hope isexactly the same as Peter's,
which is to not look down, don'tlook back, don't look inward,
look up to him.
Joshua Johnson (00:35):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, today I'm
joined again by Sharon HoddyMiller. Sharon has spent years
helping people name this hiddeninsecurities and comparisons
that weigh us down and steal ourjoy. Her first book free of me,
(00:57):
explore the gift of selfforgetfulness. What happens when
we stop making ourselves thecenter of the story and now in
our new devotional gazing atGod, she takes that invitation
further, showing us how to liftour eyes from the endless cycle
of self preoccupation and setour gaze on the one who defines
our worth and calls us beloved.
In this conversation, Sharon andI talk about the lies that keep
(01:19):
us locked in self doubt, what itlooks like to do the hard
interior work of healing withoutgetting stuck there, and how
worship becomes the practicethat reorients us toward God and
neighbor. We explore what realfreedom in Christ looks like in
the everyday realities ofministry, leadership and family
life, and why abiding in Christ,not achievement or recognition,
is the true measure of success.
(01:42):
Sharon's honesty, humility andwisdom shine through in this
conversation, I think you'llfind her insights challenging
and freeing, especially ifyou've ever felt crushed by
expectations, whether fromothers or from yourself. This is
a conversation about freedom,healing and the joy that comes
when our eyes are lifted up. Sojoin us. Here is my conversation
(02:05):
with Sharon. Hoddy Miller,Sharon, welcome back to shifting
culture. Excited to have youback
Sharon Hodde Miller (02:11):
on I know I was excited when I saw this on
my calendar today, getting tocatch up with you again.
Joshua Johnson (02:18):
Yes, it is good.
Last time we actually, we talkedabout the cost of control. And I
think something that that doesto us is actually does what
we're talking about today, isthat it makes us turn in on
ourselves. And so, I mean,you're building that from free
of me, your first book, and nowin this devotional you have
that's come out with free of me,your RE release, gazing at God.
(02:41):
We're talking about themovements of going in to figure
out who we are and who God sayswe are, and then going and
gazing back out at God and otherpeople figuring out how to love
God and love others. Take me onthe journey with you. Where did
this come from? And what wereyou struggling with when we're
(03:02):
trying to figure out how youcould get maybe a little more
confident? They were battlingsome self esteem, figuring out
who you were in the midst ofyour life and your faith.
Sharon Hodde Miller (03:14):
Yeah, well, if I can back up a little bit
and share kind of the backstoryfirst with my first book free of
me that released, I believe itwas in 2017 now, I was pregnant
with my daughter when itreleased, and now she's in
second grade. So that's how longago that released, which is kind
of crazy, but back then, whatled to that book on self
(03:39):
forgetfulness, essentially iswhat that book is about. Was
that I had been in ministry forprobably about a decade at that
point, and at first, when I wasfirst called to ministry, I
found it to be inherentlymeaningful, like just, you know,
writing, speaking, teaching, allof that. I really just enjoyed
(04:01):
it for the calling itself, theways that I learned about
Scripture and Jesus. Butsomewhere along the way, my
focus shifted, and the best wayI can describe what was sort of
happening in my interior world,and it's so honestly humbling to
admit, because ministry is, youknow, fundamentally about Jesus,
(04:25):
but what was happening inside ofme is I started looking at my
peers who are kind of doing thesame work I was and comparing
myself to them, or I was lookingat people just a few steps ahead
of me in Ministry, and needingtheir acknowledgement or their
affirmation. And, yeah, and soif I if I wasn't comparing well
(04:46):
to my peers, or if I wasn'tgetting acknowledgement from
people that I looked up to, itwas really shattering. And I
remember putting things online,putting things out into. World
and sort of expecting aparticular response, and if I
didn't get that feeling reallyinsecure, feeling like a
failure, feeling like, what'swrong with me? And I remember
(05:09):
having this sort of bottommoment where I was just sobbing
one night, and my husband washolding me, and I was like, why
am I so insecure about ministry,this work that I'm doing, like,
why am I comparing myself? Andso that sent me on a journey of
trying to understand myinsecurity. And I did it the way
(05:32):
I approached it, the way I thinkour self esteem culture sort of
teaches us to which is throughaffirmation, you know, looking
at what does the Bible say aboutme and how God loves me and
thinks about me and created mewith a purpose, and reading
books that were kind of to thatend as well. And at the end of
(05:52):
that journey, it was probablylike six months of just research
and working on myself and tryingto internalize these truths. I
realized that it had not helpedme at all. It had not touched
what whatever was underneaththat insecurity, really. And
that's when I sort of backed upand re approached and realized
(06:15):
there's something else going onhere. And one person who whose
voice really helped me identifythat was actually Tim Keller. He
has this little book called thefreedom of self forgetfulness.
You can read it in like 45minutes, really easy read, but
he helped me name something thatI really unpack more of and free
(06:35):
of me, which is that there areactually two causes of
insecurity, but our culture hasreally only identified one or
equipped us to deal with that,and that is low self esteem,
which is is real. I would definethat as not seeing yourself the
way God sees you. And the gospelof Jesus, Christ is our answer
(06:58):
to low self esteem, absolutelybut there's a second cause of
insecurity that most of us nevereven think about our culture is
not equipped to address, andthat is self preoccupation. When
we make ourselves the center ofour story, the center of
whatever it is we're doing, ormake something about us that is
(07:18):
not about us, it means thatthing then becomes a referendum
on our worth and our value insome way. And realizing that was
actually what had happened to myministry, is I had had made it
about me. It was a referendum onme, the job I was doing, the
quality of my work, whatever itis, and that is why it had
(07:42):
become so heavy and was stealingall of my joy. And so that was
the birthplace of free of me,and I've continued to walk that
out. It's been really that bookwas really helpful for me when
we planted a church, actually,shortly after that book
released, because I don't knowif you know this, but church
(08:04):
planting is also there's manyopportunities for humiliation
and loneliness, and so it was areally great message that I
could continue to preach tomyself. But, and I know this is
like the longest answer to yourquestion, but gazing at God,
part of the reason I wrote thisfollow up devotional is I
(08:25):
realized I still had more tosay. And one of the things that
I discovered since releasingfree of me and one person that
actually another voice thathelped me to identify this was
Chuck DeGroat and his book whennarcissism comes to church,
because he and that book talksabout how people who struggle
(08:46):
with narcissism that self focusunderneath it is actually shame,
like usually it's a wound. And Iwas seeing that even in my own
ministry, like in our church,where we're at very often, when
someone is running everythingthat's happening to them through
a filter of self. There'sactually like a wound there. And
(09:07):
so to just invite people to youneed to just raise your gaze.
You need to just focus on God.
Love God and love others. Whilethat is important, it will also
be very difficult if we nevername Why are you focusing on
yourself? Because sometimes itis just sin, sometimes it's just
pride, it's just vanity, butsometimes there's actually a
wound that needs tending to. Andso that is the the arc of gazing
(09:30):
at God is for a book calledgazing at God. I think people
will be surprised by how muchtime I devote to the self, but
it's you have to understand whatis happening in your interior
world, and once you can name itand tame it, then you have this,
this freedom to focus on God andothers as well.
Joshua Johnson (09:55):
Yeah, I think the the things that have really
helped me in this area isreally. Realizing, from a lot of
different voices and from Godthat our identity and who we are
is received rather than comingfrom inside of ourselves. And I
think when we start to focus onwho we are, I mean the self
esteem movement, it's we'retrying to come up with who we
(10:16):
are by ourselves. We're tryingto figure out, like our
identity, our worth, our value,all from me, it's still a focus
on myself. And while that can begood, some of those
affirmations, a lot of timesthat when we're not receiving
something from God from theoutside and knowing who we are
(10:38):
from him, it's going to eat atus. We're going to continue to
say, Am I really this? Am I justtelling myself this? What is
that shift for us to look thatit's not just about turning in
or like focusing just ourselvesby ourselves, but it's something
(11:01):
that we need to receive, and itcomes from the outside.
Sharon Hodde Miller (11:05):
Yeah, I mean that that conversation
around identity is, gosh, thatis a that's a huge conversation.
And I know that we I justmentioned Tim Keller, and I
thought you were about to saythis, because Tim Keller talks
about how the good news of JesusChrist is that identity is not
achieved, but is, in fact,received. One thing that I think
(11:27):
the self esteem movement. Sowhen I was researching free of
me, I researched the self esteemmovement and why it ultimately
failed, because it didn't yieldthe generation of confident
young people that it essentiallypromised. And what it did yield
(11:50):
was not more confident youngpeople. They were just as
insecure as ever, but they weremore self absorbed. And I think
ultimately the reason why itfailed is that, on the one hand,
it got right the importance ofthese messages of of truth and
(12:12):
speaking affirmation of buildinglike. You know, in some ways,
what it is attempting to harnessis showing our kids
unconditional love like, I thinkthat's at the end of the day,
what the self esteem movement istrying to do, where I think it
ultimately failed, is that theceiling was too low. Of like,
(12:35):
what it was hoping to achieve,that we are created for more
than ourselves, that the thehuman, you know, the reason God
invented humanity was ultimatelyto point back to him. We are
made in His image. And so wehave this, this purpose, this
(12:59):
this meaning that has theseechoes of the infinite and these
echoes of eternity. And what theself esteem movement is
basically doing is saying no,like your highest purpose is for
you to like yourself. And whenwe lower that ceiling of of
human purpose, I think thatcreates its own sort of
(13:19):
sickness. And I think we sawlike the results of that, and so
I think we have to be careful.
And I'm realizing just now, I'mnot really answering your
question about identity at all,but I think that it had, you
know, benefits, like, I want tobe really careful not to just
say it's all garbage. Like, Ithink it was addressed, trying
to address a real problem, butthe ceiling was just too low,
(13:42):
and ultimately bore that out. SoI know that didn't
Joshua Johnson (13:49):
Okay. I want to stick on that we'll get back to
identity and we'll come back toit, because there's a lot in
there that I want to talk about,but if I think of our culture
today, so it feels like now, ifthere is something that I don't
like in maybe politicaladministrations, or if there's
something I don't like in mycommunity that is happening that
(14:11):
is outside of myself, outside ofmy control, if my highest value
is to like myself, if I don'tlike What is happening, I don't
just say, hey, maybe in ourcommunity, we just have to work
for, you know, a greater thegreater good for our community.
We have to actually see wherethe problems are and actually go
(14:32):
and be with other people in themidst of it, it actually starts
to cultivate a lie to ourselves,that what is happening now is
just not good for me, right? Itis. It is a bad thing for me. So
I feel bad about the state ofthe world. I feel bad then about
myself, and then there isnothing that I could do about
(14:54):
it. And so I just wallow inthis, you know, self pity, that
because something. Is happeningoutside of myself, without my
control. I really don't knowwhat to do with it, because now
I don't like the world, andbecause of that, I don't like
myself. How do we reorientourselves in the midst of even
(15:15):
even that? And we could take itas a microcosm level of like
people around you doing thingsthat you don't like and you end
up being Hey, it's really aboutme. So this isn't working.
Sharon Hodde Miller (15:27):
That is one of the big limitations when we
make things about us that areultimately not about us, whether
that is our children, you know,or some issue that is happening
in the world when we aretreating like our political
(15:48):
party, for example, when we'retreating these things as if they
are an extension of us, as ifthey are a reflection of us, We
are not actually going to seethat thing clearly anymore.
We're no longer going to, forexample, with our children.
We're no longer seeing them forwho they are. We're just
(16:10):
saddling them with more of ourown insecurities. We're not
going to be able to see ourpolitical party clearly because
we feel the need to defend it,because it is an extension of
ourselves, and so ultimately,when we make things about us
that are not about us, it isinhibiting our ability to see
(16:32):
the world clearly. It isinhibiting our ability to be
honest about what is happeningin front of us. It's all just
being run through this filter ofself, and so that's why it is.
It's really important as aChristian discipline for us to
be able to identify. I haveattached this thing to my
identity, going back to thattopic of identity, because as
(16:56):
soon as that happens, we are nolonger going to be dealing
honestly with whatever thatthing is.
Joshua Johnson (17:04):
I think that's helpful. So then what is? Then
this balance between likelooking outward, gazing at God,
gazing at others, and loving ourneighbors well, and then working
on our shame and our scripts andnaming where we are and actually
doing the hard work of healingso that we could look out, what
(17:30):
is that balance? Becausesometimes we focus too much on
one side or the other and weforget both of those sides.
Sharon Hodde Miller (17:37):
Yeah, exactly so on the one end, I
would say. And another thingthat our culture does really
well is this self awareness, youknow, interior examination,
understanding the self. We haveall these different tools now.
We have the Enneagram. We've gotStrengths Finder. We have all
these different ways ofunderstanding ourselves and
(17:58):
understanding our trauma fromour childhood, whatever it is.
And those things are allvaluable, but within the right
context. And so being able tosay, you do need to understand
these things, I think it was, Ican't remember if it's John
Calvin. I quoted him in gazingat God. It says, There is no
(18:18):
knowledge of God withoutknowledge of self and so that
interior work is essential. It'svery, very important. But where
Christians would diverge frommaybe a secular understanding of
self examination is, why are wedoing this? That the point is
not just self actualization. Thepoint is not just liking
(18:42):
yourself. One kind of metaphor Ithink about often is, you know,
Scripture uses this metaphor ofrunning a race, like we have
this race of faith. You can'trun that, that race if you have
a broken foot, and so if you'rehobbling along, if you're
distracted because of the painof this foot, you need to take
(19:04):
some time to sit down and givethat foot an opportunity to
heal. But if you were to makeyour entire life about that
foot, if you were to move intothe hospital and just live
there, that is its own kind ofsickness. And so for us to
remember that, no, you wereactually intended to run like
(19:24):
that. That is the point of yourhealing. So that's that's one
end that I think Christianityoffers a correction to why we do
this interior work, that it doesmatter. It is an important part
of this process, so that you'renot just losing the self, but
you need to heal the self inorder to be free of the self. On
the other side of it, I wouldsay there is a tendency, kind of
(19:48):
on the back end, to think I ampracticing self forgetfulness. I
am practicing self denial, whenwhat you are actually doing is
self neglect. You arepracticing. It self rejection or
a loss of the self. Andironically, that happens because
(20:09):
you are finding your identity insomething other than Jesus. So
one way this plays out a lot isfor mothers, where we think that
I'm called to be this, thismartyr, and really it's because
of this expectation that this iswhat a good mother does. This is
how I assert my identity as agood mother is by neglecting
(20:33):
myself, essentially. But it alsoplays out for pastors. I see
this temptation in pastors alot, where they are, the first
ones to arrive and the last onesto leave, and they're always on
call, and they're, you know,they look like the greatest
servant leader. You know,they're so humble, and they're
so self sacrificing, and they'rejust a hero of the faith. And
(20:57):
really, what it is is they haveover identified with this job,
that this being a pastor,there's kind of a loss of self
where they're trying to findthemselves in this job, in this
role, in this calling, andbecause of that, they are
actually neglecting themselves.
They are not taking care ofthemselves. They're not
(21:18):
practicing like healthy rhythmsand so on, on both ends, just
this front end of like healingbut but also in the ways that
that loss of self sort of drivesus, they reinforce the
importance of being healthy andaffirming the goodness of of
yourself, and also that you findyourself ultimately in Jesus and
none of these other roles. Thoseare all really important pre
(21:41):
prerequisites to freedom fromthe self. All right,
Joshua Johnson (21:49):
so you just named a really important thing
for us that I don't want tomiss, but I want to get back
into some of this identity andreceiving identity, but before
we do that, so then you justtalk about somebody as a pastor,
as a leader, saying everything'sgoing to be about me. I'm going
to be the greatest servantleader, most humble man alive,
(22:12):
woman alive, like I am, the mosthumble I'm going to go and
serve. What it seems to me isthat what they're doing is that,
instead of trying to be anauthoritarian, hierarchical
leader with lots of control,what they do that's a pyramid
with them at the top, it seemsto me like they invert the
pyramid and then they puteverything on their shoulders,
(22:36):
so it's still All about them andand, but they're trying to hold
everything up by themselves,right? And so it's going to
crush them, and it'll crush thechurch and everyone around them.
So what is health in that looklike, especially in leadership
and pastoral leadership withcongregations and churches and
(23:00):
ministry, how do we reorientinto a healthy dynamic when with
what you're talking about?
Sharon Hodde Miller (23:09):
Yeah, that's such a that's a really
interesting way of framing it.
And I'm gonna process this sortof verbally with you for a
moment, because I'm having,like, a new I'm having a new
thought in real time. But what'sinteresting to me about it is
almost like, you know, I talkedabout over identifying with your
(23:32):
work, but people who do thatalso over identify with Jesus,
which you wouldn't think is likea thing, but it is in the sense
that you receive your identityfrom Christ ultimately, but you
are not Christ. You know you arecalled to be Jesus to people,
(23:55):
but not for people. And I thinkthat is, it's such a temptation
in ministry to be Jesus forpeople, primarily because people
want you to be Jesus for them,and when you are not, when you
are found to have flaws, whenyou make mistakes, people are so
(24:18):
disappointed in you, as if youhave failed to be who you are
supposed to be, when that isn'ttrue, you've just failed to be
Jesus, who you're never calledto be. And so I do think there
is kind of like a distinctionthere where we are called to be
like Jesus. We are not called tobe Jesus, for him, for other
(24:42):
people. So that's my real timeprocessing of what you just
named.
Joshua Johnson (24:52):
Well, it's so hard to reorient the body of
Christ into a position like thatand not a. Elevating someone
that's not Jesus to the positionof Jesus, and so if anything
actually then, then fails andhurts, all accusation is going
to go on you, right? If, if Iview you, Sharon as my pastor,
(25:16):
you're, you're Jesus to me, andyou fail in some sort which we
will, because we're not Jesus,we're human. I'm going to look
at you and go, Okay, you failedme. I'm going to just rail
against you, and then I'm goingto maybe leave or, you know,
cause some dissension, becauseit's not right. It's not good.
(25:38):
And so that's a reorientationwork for a culture with people
and I mean, and it starts, youknow, it starts with with us,
who are actually doing some ofthis, leading that we have to
reorient ourselves to somethingdifferent. Yeah. So what does
that start to look like,reorienting an entire culture
(26:00):
through making sure that we areokay, and not saying I am Jesus.
Sharon Hodde Miller (26:06):
Yeah, I think for me personally, I can
speak for me personally, thatreorientation, it's really
painful, because I think thereare the narcissists, there are
the power hungry leaders, that'stheir own thing, but for those
of us who our heart genuinelyand truly is to serve our
(26:30):
people, to create, to build,churches that are like a taste
of the kingdom, that are safe,that are life giving for the
sheep when we fail, orespecially when we are
misunderstood, like when we areaccused of things that we didn't
(26:52):
do we didn't say, like, Isn'tour heart? It is so painful
because we know, like, my heartfor you is is good, and I want
to, I want to defend myself inthis moment, so that you
understand, like my intentionswere pure, or, you know, I know
this was a mistake, but it was awell intentioned one, like
(27:13):
whatever it was, that has been astruggle for me, but to
recognize that, that even inthose moments where people think
poorly of me, are disappointedin me, is actually the
invitation for a correction tooccur in both their heart and in
(27:36):
my own That is an open door toremember, hey, if they leave my
church and they're disappointedin me, but they still love
Jesus, that's a win like, like,I'm not trying to win them to
me, I will disappoint them, butif I can still respond in a way
(27:59):
that holds on to, points to, youknow, whatever it is their
relationship to Jesus, that thatis still a win. And so those
opportunities for me ofhumiliation have have actually
been some of the most importantmoments, where, in my own heart,
(28:19):
I am reminded, like, what I havebeen called to, and what this
work ultimately is, but we tendto fight them in those moments.
We tend to want to, like, sitdown with the person and
explain, like, if I can justtell them this way to explain
and to maybe just reframe it asmaybe this was actually for me
(28:42):
to remember that this is I'm notbuilding this church on my
shoulders.
Joshua Johnson (28:46):
That's really good. So take me to the process
of finding out, what are thelies that we're believing,
rejecting those lies, receivingtruth from God, and the truth
that all of us are a belovedchild of God. We're in Christ,
and we have then purpose in theworld, right? We have something
that we get to do. So there aresome some gifts. So what is
(29:10):
receiving that true identity,who we really are, really like,
by rejecting some of the liesthat we have believed in
ourselves?
Sharon Hodde Miller (29:20):
Yeah, this goes back to why I wrote gazing
at God again, is those lies,ultimately, are the things that
keep us focused on ourselves. Ithink as long as the enemy can
feed us these lies about, youknow, you aren't good enough.
You were excluded. You, you,you, it's, it's fascinating to
(29:41):
me. There's studies done on oneof the tells of people
struggling with depression isthat their language becomes very
me centered. And so peoplestruggling with depression use a
lot more me use a lot more. Imine all of that. And so there's
this link. Between self focusand just overall spiritual,
(30:05):
mental, emotional unhealth. Andso being able to do that into
your work, and it's not a I havefinished, and now I'm healed,
you know, kind of a thing, butfor me, like one of the things,
one of the days, is about justnoticing your scripts, like, am
(30:25):
I using a lot of me languageright now? And usually that's
like a clue to me, that I haveturned the narrative inward, and
that I need to not only seethat, but but one of the things
for me that has actually set mefree from those me centered
narratives is remembering I am,my identity like the most
(30:48):
important thing about me is thatI am loved by God, and I don't
have to prove myself. I don'thave to defend myself, I don't
have to explain to anyone who Iam, because he already knows.
And that's, that's the beautifulthing about the gospel, that I
think there has been a way oftalking about self denial, that
(31:12):
is the obliteration of self,that your self is bad, and for
us to remember, no, theresurrection is total like it is
all of you. And so that meansthat God has a vested interest
in redeeming every ounce of whoyou are, and everything that God
created is good, and that alsoincludes you. And so for us to
(31:37):
use that as sort of a home basethat I am not operating out of,
a place where I have to provemyself, where I need to earn my
worth, my standing, whatever itis I am free of having to do all
of that, that posturing typework, so that I can instead
focus on loving God and lovingothers and so a lot of that for
(32:01):
me, I never would have thoughtlike when I first became a
Christian, the love of God wasnot a difficult concept for me
to understand, because I havereally great parents and I've
always experienced unconditionallove, but It was in ministry
that was when I really needed toreturn to this very simple but
(32:27):
very profound truth that I amloved, and it is only out of
that place that I can operate inhealth and ministry.
Joshua Johnson (32:36):
It's so hard to operate in health because it is
a barrage of false expectationsput upon you by yourself and by
other people, and then trying tofigure out, what are the real
expectations God has for you,which you know God is like, Hey,
I love you, and you don't haveto do anything, but I have
called you to a purpose, toactually live in in such a way
(32:59):
and actually be faithful. Andthat's that's hard. So in the
midst of of this and denyingourselves and seeing what God is
up to and receiving things, whatdoes success look like in the
kingdom of God? Like, one of thethings that we think is, I don't
know, flashy ministry, and thenit ends up being, look at what
(33:20):
I've done or like, Hey, I'mcounting, you know, whatever
we're counting. We like to counta lot in Christian work, but
what really is success in thekingdom of God when we're
actually then we've worked onour lives and our scripts, we've
received our true identity, andwe're starting to deny ourself
(33:42):
so that we can gaze at God andothers. What does success look
like?
Sharon Hodde Miller (33:46):
That is such a great question. So for
me, I It's funny, like thinkingabout it, like, I don't know why
I am, like, weepy all of asudden, I think it's because, I
don't know about you, but thegrace of God, the more I
(34:08):
understand it, the richer andlike more beautiful it becomes.
And I think that when I firststarted out in ministry, and
this was the pressure, wasthinking, I need to do, like,
great things, you know, I needto see this many people, like,
understand, come to, know, findand follow Jesus, you know, I
(34:31):
that is what like success in thekingdom means, or getting a kind
of the kingdom, getting momentumIn our culture, you know,
whatever it is, and what I haveshifted on throughout my life,
throughout my leadership, isI've continued to like scale
(34:53):
down the size of what I thinksuccess actually looks like, to
the point, yeah. Sense ofbelieving that, at the end of
the day, success is really justabiding in Christ, like, that's
what it is. You know, it's, it'snot any bigger than that, like
(35:14):
we, we replicate who we are. Andso in terms of like, our
influence, God will will takecare of that. And so our, you
know, the size of what we'recalled to is, is rather modest,
but incredibly important.
Because when we are trying to dothese great things, I think that
is when we ultimately lose theessential things, when we lose
(35:37):
ourselves. And so it's just thethe lightness of knowing what,
what God has called me to at theend of the day is just to enjoy
him, you know. And the more thatI rest in that, the more freedom
I experience in that, thatthat's ultimately like his
(35:59):
heart, and then just let him dothe rest
Joshua Johnson (36:05):
in this world of self esteem, some of this thing
of like resting in Jesus andResting in God means I don't
have to do anything. I just haveto, you know, which, at one
point is really true. But what Ilove in John 15, the abide in me
passage is like, if you're goingto abide in My love, you will
(36:27):
obey my commands. If you obey mycommands, you will abide in My
love. It's actually they go handin hand. We think of commands as
being tough and heavy and hard,but it's really for the
flourishing of our lives as youknow what he is talking to us.
And is the greatest command isto love God, and the second is
(36:47):
like it, to love our neighbor asourselves. And so this abiding
and this loving towards God andother people go hand in hand,
talk a little bit about, then,the commands of Jesus, and
because in this culture that welive in, command seems to be a
(37:08):
bad thing, because you'reputting something hard on me,
and I don't want to becontrolled. I don't want you to
do anything. But what? Whyshould we follow the commands of
Christ?
Sharon Hodde Miller (37:20):
Yeah, this, this journey, really reframed
those first and second greatestcommands for me, because you're
exactly right when we think ofthe 10 Commandments, when we
think of the law, when we thinkof any instruction from God, it
seems like these are the rules.
This is how you be a goodChristian, and that there is no
(37:44):
life in that you know that is areally heavy yoke. But what this
journey taught me is that whenJesus says the first commandment
is to love God, what he wassaying is, because this will set
you free like this. This is thepath. This is the way out of
(38:06):
this, this pit of smallness andself focus and living for
lesser, unworthy purposes this.
This is the way. And so itreally helped me to reframe
these. These are two sort ofropes out of that pit, in a
(38:28):
sense, like the path to rescue,which is just such a different
way than I had ever thoughtabout those two commands.
Joshua Johnson (38:35):
How does this path to rescue work? Then, like,
is it? How do we get out of thatpit by actually loving God.
Sharon Hodde Miller (38:43):
So I I tease this out more actually, in
free of me and for me, some ofthis actually, I came to it by
way ironically of my counselor.
She was talking about how ourthoughts, our trains of
thoughts, are almost like theselocomotives, and we've got to
(39:06):
figure out how to stop thetrain. And so when you're in
these me spirals of, you know,what are people going to think
of me? Why didn't they applaudme? Thank me. Include me. You
know, whatever is your mecentered train of thought, like,
how do you stop the train? Andwhat I eventually stumbled upon,
(39:29):
and it's interesting, becausesince writing free of me, I
discovered there's a lot ofresearch on this. Isn't
something that I invented,there's actually, this is like a
legitimate practice. But Ithought, okay, if I am
struggling with me centerthoughts, then I need to, like,
(39:50):
physically redirect my brain toGod. And so I went through, I
combed through, especially thePsalms. And just looked for
descriptions of his character.
And then I created a Notes appin my phone where I listed them
all out. And when I noticedmyself just spiraling with those
(40:10):
thoughts, I would go and I wouldjust read through that list
about how he is kind, he ispatient, he is long suffering.
He is slow to anger. He is ourrock, our refuge, you know, all
those different things. And itredirected my my brain off of
myself and back onto him. Andinitially, when I first started
doing this, I would put my notesup away, and then my brain would
(40:33):
go, like, immediately back tothat thing. And so I'd have to
pull my notes up again and justlike, read through it. But
eventually it became like asecond nature, where I didn't
even need my notes app. I couldjust, you know, rehearse it by
heart. But what I realized I wasdoing at the end of the day is
(40:54):
just what Peter was doing whenhe was in the ocean. You know,
it's just redirecting my gazeoff of the waves, you know, onto
Jesus. That's what worship is,in a nutshell. And I think that
also redefined for me, whatworship is that what we're doing
(41:16):
is directing our gaze onto theactual source of life and
security and peace and and hope.
That's what worship is. And sowhat, what walked me out of it,
in a nutshell, was worship,which sounds like very
Christian, but I'm telling youlike it also it worked. It
(41:37):
worked. So because
Joshua Johnson (41:41):
we're thinking, we're putting our gaze on God,
what I love about that story ofJesus walking on water. And then
Peter said, Hey, can I come outtoo? And he says, yes, I've
always, you know, in the past,as I was reading that, it struck
me recently, just in the lastfew weeks, I read that story
again, and a lot of I always go,man. He lost his gaze on Jesus,
(42:02):
so he fell, but he was the onlyone who got out of the boat. He
actually was brave enough tosay, I'm going to get out on
that water. And he tried, and hewent, and he believed in such a
way that he actually took a stepout of the boat. And what that
does to me is putting my gaze onJesus helps me put that step out
(42:27):
of the boat. But I know that aI'm not going, it's not going to
be perfect the rest of my life.
Right now, I got out of thatpit. I put my gaze on him, and
man, well done. Like, good job,Peter. Like, none of the other
disciples did it. They didn'tsay anything. They're like, they
were just freaking out thatthere's this ghost here. They
(42:47):
were scared, right? And he waslike, Okay, I'm coming. I'm
doing it. So where is the theactual for us, not just like
looking but actually steppingout of the boat and saying, We
have to take a step as well.
Sharon Hodde Miller (43:06):
It's funny.
You say that because I justmaybe two nights ago, did
devotions with my only one of mykids has been baptized, and
he's, like, really hungry tolearn about Scripture. He's 10.
It's just amazing. And so everynight we pick a passage, we pick
a story, and he reads it outloud, and then we just talk
through it. And so two nightsago, we read that story, and we
(43:30):
just talked through it, and Italked to him about exactly the
thing that you said that strikesme so often, especially as a
church planter, that Peter wasthe only one who got out of the
boat. And what that means, Imean, there's a lot it means
there's something to be said foryou are safer in the waves with
(43:52):
Jesus than you are in thecomfort of the boat. But what
that also means is that steppingout of the boat is incredibly
lonely, and I wonder what thedisciples thought about Peter
when he was doing that, like ifhe thought they thought he was
(44:12):
crazy, if they thought he wasweird, you know, who knows what
they thought? Who knows whatthey said? But anytime you step
out in faith, it is going to belonely, and people aren't going
to follow you, people that youlove, and sometimes they will
even criticize you. They willquestion your motives. And that
(44:33):
was something I was completelyunprepared for, but for us to
not look down, not look back,not to ask, Is it me? You know,
did I do something wrong? Am I?
Did I mishear God, whatever itis, again, I think those me
centered scripts really becomeloud, especially when you are
(44:56):
alone. You You know, the enemyreally core. Honors us
sometimes, and for us toremember, no, your hope is
exactly the same as Peter's,which is to not look down, don't
look back, don't look inward.
Look up to him
Joshua Johnson (45:12):
when you hear that. So if you're receiving
like, Hey, this is some of yourpurpose. This is where you're
going. You feel a call by Godsomewhere, and saying this is a
purpose. It reminds me somethinglike like Mother Teresa, as she
goes in, she starts herministry, and she feels most of
her life that she actuallydoesn't hear then the voice of
(45:34):
God, or the feel the presence ofGod. But she stood the course
and stuck to it. And it was noteasy. I was just talking to, you
know, I was talking to ourpastor as we were in an elder
retreat, and he was telling thestory of him working with Mother
Teresa for as a, as a young kid,like 18 years old, on a YWAM
(45:57):
outreach and worked with
Unknown (45:59):
Mother Teresa, yeah, like, he actually worked with
her. That's amazing
Joshua Johnson (46:03):
for the Yeah.
And so they would, what wouldthey? They would go down the
street, pick up people that had,like, all these sores on them
about to die. They would gatherthem. So he would just take
people out of trucks, hold them,and then place them in beds. And
they would all that they woulddo in that place, would just
clean the source of people andeither prepare them to die or
(46:27):
then take care of the dead thatwouldn't have been able to take
being taken care of. Like thisis hard work, like and and she
goes, I'm called to this. Andthen doesn't feel the presence
of God for a long time. But shesays, I'm going to continue to
do this because I heard thecall. That's the most amazing
thing to me. And like, what doesit look like to stay the course?
(46:52):
In the midst of all of this,we're gazing at God. Said, I'm
I'm looking at you. But youknow, especially for people
probably around our age, aswe're going through these, these
even transitions from fromyoung, young life into to older
age, maybe midlife transitions.
(47:15):
There's such a time when we'relike, I don't know what I'm
doing and where I'm going, am Igoing to change? What does it
look like to stay the course andcontinue to say I'm going to
gaze at God even if I don't feelit?
Sharon Hodde Miller (47:29):
Yeah, I would say feeling the presence
of God is a grace that we arenot constantly promised. And I
think for so many of us, myselfincluded, it's important to know
that, because when you firstdiscern that call, very often it
(47:51):
is accompanied by reallyemotional experience of God,
like it's very often dramatic.
Maybe you're at a conference,maybe you get a vision like,
whatever it is, but it'soverwhelming. It engages, you
know, all of your senses likeyou you feel God on this, like
visceral level. And I think alot of times we can spend the
(48:13):
rest of our lives kind ofchasing after that feeling when
that wasn't really the point. Ithink that feeling typically
gives us a good bit of claritythat we need for the road ahead,
but at the end of the day, justeven, like, honestly, knowing,
because we are whole people,that things like depression,
(48:35):
depression dulls our likephysical ability to sense God,
it dulls our ability to senseanything. And so if you are
going through a season ofdepression and you don't feel
God, it's not because he's left.
You're just in a season ofdepression. That's just what
happens during that. But nothinglike has actually changed about
(48:57):
his character. And so for us toremember that gazing at God is
not about chasing after anexperience of the transcendent.
It is about reminding ourselveswhat is ultimately fixed,
immovable truth, that these arethe things that do not change,
(49:19):
regardless of our circumstances,regardless of how we feel at any
given moment. And that is whatwe stand on, that that is what
gazing at God is about.
Joshua Johnson (49:30):
It's good. So what hope do you have for people
pick up this devotional gazingat God and maybe free of me as
well. What do you hope thatpeople can get from this.
Sharon Hodde Miller (49:41):
My hope is that people would experience
actual freedom in Christ,because that is what it gave me.
You know, I think we talk aboutfreedom, sometimes very fi.
Figuratively, metaphorically,like, Yes, I have freedom. I'll
(50:05):
experience it fully, you know,one day in glory. But honestly,
this is, and it's part of thereason why I revisited it with a
devotional. Is this second tofinding Christ. This was the
second greatest liberation of mylife. It continues to be a
(50:25):
source of freedom, because in ain a role, especially as leading
a church, you are constantlyevaluated by the people in your
church, on the job you're doingas a preacher, as a you know,
manager of staff, fundraiser,like all these different things,
you're constantly beingmeasured, and that is just death
(50:48):
to the soul. And so this, thistoolkit of self forgetfulness,
has helped me to put all of thatnoise, kind of in its proper
place, and in some cases, toactually receive it as a tool of
my own sanctification, and toremember I don't actually have
to win anyone to myself, that ifanyone doesn't like me, that is
(51:13):
fine, because this isn't thischurch isn't about me, it is
about Jesus. And so that's myhope, is that if people are
realizing that their ministry,their calling, whatever it is,
is just a lot heavier than itever needed to be, because your
own identity, your worth is, isbound up in it, that this would
(51:35):
be a path that helps you to kindof disentangle those things so
you can walk in freedom.
Joshua Johnson (51:41):
Yes, this is not hyperbole, but this is one of
the greatest things to help youin your life, both free of me
and gazing at God, is actuallyto bring about greater freedom.
It is one of the most helpfulthings that I have read and many
years. And so I would put it onthe on the shelf with a few
other things that are verysimilar to this. But this is a
(52:05):
fantastic resource. It issomething that I really believe
our culture desperately needs. Ireally want people, if they
haven't read free of me yet, togo and get it and just pass it
out to the your entire churchand all the congregation and do
this devotional as you'rewalking with this gazing at God,
(52:27):
I I want to emphasize I say howmuch I enjoy books a lot on this
podcast, because I really dolove a lot of the books I read,
but this is one of the mostimportant things for you in your
Life, so go and get this. It'sreally, really good. Sharon, how
can people connect with you? Isthere anywhere you'd like to
(52:48):
point people to?
Sharon Hodde Miller (52:49):
I'm most active on Instagram, just Sharon
H Miller is where they can findme. Perfect.
Joshua Johnson (52:56):
Sounds good. I'd love to just end with a
recommendation from you. Soanything you've been reading or
watching lately, you couldrecommend,
Sharon Hodde Miller (53:03):
oh, my goodness, how much time do you
have? I just started so I'vebeen reading books about
resilience, and so I justfinished a book called
regenerative performance byJames Hewitt, and it's his stuff
on sleep. Was really, reallyinteresting to me, just kind of
like habit. He was debunking alot of myths that we have about,
(53:27):
like, why caffeine is bad, orthings like, a lot of it was
kind of setting me free, becausehe also said, like, if you're
night owl, like you'rebiologically designed that way,
like, lean into it. And then Ijust started a book called
shatterproof by Tasha Urich, andit's, it's about resilience as
well, but also some of the likemyths around resilience that
(53:50):
ultimately crush us. And so bothof those books have been if you
are someone who is looking forto dig deeper into resiliency
and leadership. I've enjoyedboth of them.
Joshua Johnson (54:03):
Awesome. That's great. Well, Sharon, thank you
for this conversation. It tooksome some tangents and turns,
which I didn't expect, but werefantastic. And I think we really
went deep and hopefully helpedsome people along the way. And
this, this free of me andgazing. God is a fantastic
resource. Well done. Thank youfor going on the journey
(54:23):
yourself. And these are the bestbooks. The best resources are
ones where people have wrestleddeeply with what they are giving
to the world, that it's not justout of duty, but is actually
about lived experience. And sothank you for going on that
journey to help many, manypeople. So thank you. Applause.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.