October 6, 2025 • 51 mins
What causes leaders to lose their way? It’s rarely one catastrophic decision, it’s usually the slow drift of small compromises, unaddressed habits, and unchecked desires. In this episode, Peter Greer talks about the hidden currents that pull leaders off course. We explore the dangers of personal and mission drift, the importance of confession and accountability, the tension between culture and structure, and why humility and downward mobility are essential for long-term faithfulness. Peter shares practical tools - from succession planning to building rhythms of transparency - that help leaders prevent drift and finish well.
Peter Greer is the president and CEO of HOPE International, a global Christ-centered nonprofit working to alleviate poverty through entrepreneurship and discipleship in Africa, Asia, Latin America, and Eastern Europe. He is a bestselling coauthor of over 15 books, including Mission Drift, Rooting for Rivals, Lead with Prayer, and How Leaders Lose Their Way. Before joining HOPE, Peter worked internationally in microfinance in Cambodia, Zimbabwe, and Rwanda and holds a graduate degree from Harvard Kennedy School. While his sports loyalties remain in New England, Peter and his family live in Lancaster, PA.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Peter Greer (00:00):
We becomes the pronoun more than me in that
thinking about who's next,thinking about how can I elevate
the voice of others, thinkingabout man, that's a great
invitation, but maybe there'ssomeone who is better served to
do that. The more that you pushback on that arc that bends
inward, I do think is a way, animportant way, to really push
(00:21):
back against some of the thingsthat trip up too many leaders.
Joshua Johnson (00:38):
Hello and welcome to the shift in culture,
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, leadership
drift rarely happens overnight.
It happens in small, unexaminedplaces, habits left unchecked,
relationships neglected,identity tied too tightly to
(00:59):
position or platform. In thisepisode, I sit down again with
Peter Greer, CEO of HopeInternational, and author of How
leaders lose their way to talkabout why so many leaders
struggle to finish. Well, we digit into the subtle patterns of
personal and mission drift, therole of confession and
accountability, the differencebetween culture and structure
(01:20):
and the importance of humility,downward mobility and succession
planning. Peter offers not justtheory, but practical tools,
simple practices that help usrecalibrate, prevent drift and
keep our leadership aligned withfaithfulness over the long haul.
This is a conversation foranyone who longs to serve with
integrity, lead withtransparency, and remain rooted
(01:41):
in God's call, even in the messymiddle. So join us. Here is my
conversation with Peter Greer,well, Peter, welcome back to
shifting culture. Excited tohave you back on thanks for
joining me again.
Peter Greer (01:57):
Thank you for having me looking forward to the
conversation I'm excited to get
Joshua Johnson (02:01):
in and dive into how leaders are losing their
way. We're going to talk abouthow and why they're losing their
way. You know, you wrote aboutmission drift in the past. You
got a lot of examples fromdifferent people and
organizations of mission drift,and as you were looking at
those, you saw that there was aparallel personal drift that was
(02:22):
happening with leaders, and sothat's one of the reasons why
Mission Drift was happening inyour life. Let's go
introspective first, and thenwe'll go into a higher level.
What does it look like so inyour life and your leadership,
have you experienced somepersonal drift, and what did
that look like for you? Andmaybe, how did you make your way
back?
Peter Greer (02:42):
All right, we're just going right in, aren't we?
We
Unknown (02:44):
are diving in. We are
Peter Greer (02:47):
it's easier sometimes to see in others than
to seeing yourself, isn't it?
And actually, that was one ofthe consistent themes that we
found that regularly people thatexperience significant drift,
they thought it would neverhappen to me, and I can tell
you, looking at this issue,studying it, it has only
heightened my awareness as thathymn for many years ago, says,
Prone to wander, Lord, I feelit, and every single one of us
(03:10):
are the seeds for drift. And Ithink the challenge is that it's
easy to see when someonecompletely loses their way,
right? I mean, that's when wesee the headlines. That's when
we see these significant events.
What is far more difficult tospot is to go upstream and to
say, where did they initially gooff track? And I think that's
(03:30):
maybe the answer to yourquestion very directly is, you
know, thankfully, I've not hadanything that would hit
headlines. But the question is,where are the practices, where
the habits, where the attitudesgo upstream. And I think that's
where the interesting piece is,because that is a long list of
that. And if anything this kindof writing the book and
(03:50):
researching this has done, itsaid these small issues are not
small. And aggregate these smallthings we might think are no big
deal, actually become a very bigdeal if we leave them
unaddressed.
Joshua Johnson (04:04):
So what are some of the things that people
usually leave unaddressed? Whatare these small issues that when
we go upstream, that they willlead to something that we don't
recognize it at the moment, butlater on down the line, you're
like, Oh, we found ourselves wayoff and we didn't realize
Peter Greer (04:19):
it. Yeah. So one of the interesting pieces, so
again, we looked at leaders, andwe I was always amazed at how
many were so kind, so open,handed in sharing their story.
And every single one had asimpler theme of, I just wish I
could go back. I wish that Icould go back, and I would do
that differently. I would dothat differently. And so one of
(04:40):
the specific ones is, for a lotof individuals, they get so busy
their work is all encompassing,and the number of people that
actually know them is very, verysmall, even if you have the
right form individuals that youtruly can be very open handed. I
was talking with one. Leader.
And he said, I finally am at apoint that I have no secrets. I
(05:02):
have a friend that knowseverything about me. And I
thought that is, I don't havethat that is wise. But the
number of things that truly arelike we know in our heart are
there, but no one else knowsthem. The more that we put in
that box it's like, the more weare just setting ourselves up
for a lot of challenge. Sothat's one real practical piece,
(05:23):
and it changed as a result ofdoing this work, is to have
individuals that there isgreater degree of transparency,
and hopefully over time, I getto that same spot as my friend,
saying, You know what, I amfully known those things that
are left unaddressed, that areleft unsaid, those are the
things that over time, tend totrip us up, just as one very
small example,
Joshua Johnson (05:44):
yeah, even with four busy people don't know us.
I just talked to one leader whois part of a confessional
community, and that's an ongoingnormal practice to confess in
community with others. And Ithink one of the reason, even
reasons for moral failure. Andbigger failure is that we don't
make confession normal. It's notnormalized. We don't actually
(06:08):
say, No, me, how do we start tomaybe set something up where
people do in a safe environment?
We can be vulnerable with withthe few. Jesus was really, you
know, deep with three, not withall of the 12. He shared more
with three than he did withothers. He was even deeper with
the one, which was the fatherheaven. So how do we like go
into a place where we can havethose and people know our
(06:32):
secrets we can confess so thatwe could continue to stay
healthy?
Peter Greer (06:36):
Yeah, I think that's a very practical piece.
We are not having that safespace. Everyone's going to be
surprised right when, ifsomething happens in the future,
in that, and oftentimes it'sthose old friendships. Just in
my own life, I have a group ofpeople that know me as Pete.
Anyone who knew me throughcollege, they knew me as Pete.
(06:58):
Anyone after that, I kind of, Idon't know, Peter is what I got
known as, and I was with one notthat long ago, and he looked at
me and he said, Hey, Pete,you're being an idiot.
Joshua Johnson (07:10):
He was right. He was totally right. So
Peter Greer (07:13):
having those individuals that you're doing
life with, and that takes years.
Those types of friendships arenot formed in a moment. Those
types of friendships take years,and so maybe a real simple
practice would be to say, lookat your calendar, and what are
the frequency that you werehaving those times to connect.
At this point, I have thatparticular individual. We're on
(07:34):
a calendar where once a monthwe're getting together and we're
going for a walk. Anotherindividual. Every Friday
morning, we are starting our daytogether. We are praying
together. And it was likebelieving that this matters was
finally reflected on mycalendar, and we got to bring
those two things together, whatwe say matters to us, and then
making sure that there actuallyis time and space set apart. So
(07:57):
again, this is like high level,simple stuff, but what we found
is leaders who lost their way.
It's not because they didn'tknow. It's because they didn't
do and so how can we bring thosetwo things together
Joshua Johnson (08:10):
as the intentionality of the thing that
we need over and over again, andwe need to be intentional to
continue to stay on track, oneof the things in this isolation
moment that we have withleaders, and I see a lot of up
and coming leaders, the youngerleaders. Leaders want to share
leadership. They don't want tobe the solo heroic leader in the
(08:33):
church, in nonprofits, inbusiness. What have you found as
you looked at shared leadership?
Is there a difference betweenleaders who lose their way and
they don't if leadership isshared, and it's not just on
one.
Peter Greer (08:46):
Yeah. So one of the pieces that was just, again,
really sobering to me, torealize, is to say so much of
this is like upstream inattitudes and thoughts like
that's where it starts. And Ithink one of the attitudes and
thoughts is that I am what I do,that this identity that I have
(09:08):
because of the work that I do,or the platform that I have, or
the way that I speak like that,is my identity. And the more
that you say that, then allthese other issues that we're
just talking about, let'sdownplay them. Let's push them
aside. Let's put them in thebox. And that is not a healthy
thing. So I would imagine thatthat's sort of a shared
leadership to say no, there's agroup of people that are doing
(09:30):
it. We becomes the pronoun morethan me in that thinking about
who's next, thinking about howcan I elevate the voice of
others, thinking about man,that's a great invitation, but
maybe there's someone who isbetter served to do that. The
more that you push back on thatarc that bends inward, I do
think is a way, an importantway, to really push back against
(09:53):
some of the things that trip uptoo many leaders.
Joshua Johnson (09:56):
Martin Luther talked about the inward arc as.
Sin. And he talked about that iswhat sin looks like. Is an
inward arc. And so what doesthat then like? Empowering
leadership look like to giveaway some things. And it's not
really just about power andcontrol, just about us, but it
is something of more of hey, aninspiration, empowering to
(10:21):
people so that they can actuallyrun with what God has given them
as well.
Peter Greer (10:27):
There's a lot of books that are written by some
amazing theologians. There's alot of incredible thought that
is out there. I'm apractitioner. I want to know,
how do I how do I actually putthis into practice in my life so
I don't lose my way? Like, whatdo we actually do about it? And
one of the things that we foundagain and again is that leaders
that actually did have that longterm faithfulness, that
(10:49):
succession planning wassomething that they regularly
thought about and acted upon.
And I think that is one of thechecks of our heart, a real
simple practice that I did wasto actually write my resignation
letter. And that was powerful.
Like you don't realize quite somuch about how much of your
(11:10):
identity slowly is intertwined.
Writing that letter, putting it,I mean, I've got it, and then
remembering that today, I'm oneday closer to sending that
letter than I was yesterday.
That is going to happen. It's aquestion of not if, but when I
step aside. And you know whatthat does? It clarifies that
there are things that are goingto be true the day after I send
(11:32):
that letter. There are thingsthat are going to be true about
other ways of who I am that arenot necessarily just this work
that I do. And we found thatleaders that had that ability to
long term faithfulness, theyjust held pretty loosely onto
what they did and held prettytightly to whose they are, and
that has real implications forhow we lead and how we go about
(11:55):
our work.
Joshua Johnson (11:56):
I mean, even as I was reading the foreword here,
but Chris horse was talkingabout how, you know, as he moved
away from Hope International, hemoved into a new season that he
felt like God was calling himwhen the email started to go
away and his inbox wasn't veryfull. It was an identity crisis,
right? It was a who really, amI? Am I the person that you know
(12:19):
wants this full inbox because,you know, there's some status in
there. Or am I somebody who aGod is calling me and I'm a
child of God, I'm somebody thatI find my identity somewhere
else. How do you navigateidentity issues for you and your
leadership, where, knowing thatyou've done incredible things,
(12:39):
people look at you like you'rethe CEO of Hope International,
like that's an identity markerin your own life. How do you not
make that your entire identity?
How do you find it somewhereelse?
Peter Greer (12:53):
So one of the other pieces is I write about topics
that are of interest to me, thatI do not claim to be an expert
in I'm on this journey trying tofigure this out. I want to hear
from you how you do it on that.
But I think one of the practicesagain that we heard again and
again, it was interesting tohear just there were certain
themes that came up again andagain and again, and one of the
(13:14):
themes that came up again andagain is there's something about
downward mobility and service asa way to check our own heart and
our own identity, and if we everstart buying into the lie, well,
that task. I mean, other peopleshould do that. That's not my
that we wouldn't say this maybequite so directly, but that is a
(13:36):
little bit below me. That's notthe way of Jesus, and that is
not the way to long termlongevity in leadership. And so
we have a phrase we talk about aclean a latrine. There's
something really powerful whensomething needs to be done. Are
you the one who looks to others?
(13:56):
Are you the one who rolls upyour sleeves and figures out
what it looks like to serve. Andagain, I think this is the
incredible upside down way ofthinking about power that is
modeled by Jesus. He literallydid the task that no one else
could even be forced to do, oftaking that posture of washing
feet. And I think that doesn'ttranslate culturally in the same
(14:18):
way today as it did back then,but the principle absolutely
does, what are those things thatwe can do? And I think the more
that we do that the title goesaway and is replaced by, I want
to be someone who's known forloving and serving others, and
that is more important than theofficial title that I have in my
(14:40):
job. So there's something aboutdownward mobility. There's
something about willingness toserve. There's something about
cleaning of latrine that helpsdisaggregate role from who we
are as individuals, andhopefully we're individuals that
are known being willing tofollow in that example.
Joshua Johnson (14:56):
Yes, the example is fantastic. I've. Seen people
who do that that their heartposture is still like I am the
title. I'm just doing this sothat I could put you on my
shoulders and elevate you alittle bit, but it's really
about me still. How do we makesure that our heart is in the
right spot, even while serving?
And it's not about doing itbecause I want you to see how
(15:20):
good of a leader I am, or that Iwant you to look and say, Oh,
you're so humble, but it is atrue, humble heart posture like
it is, because that is a check,right? It's a check for me. It's
like, Hey, I just want you tosee how humble I am,
Peter Greer (15:41):
best at being humble? You're so good at it?
No, I think this is where real,practically, Jesus gave some
things. And in that context, ifyou're doing generosity, hey,
let's make sure that it's notfor all to see you're fasting.
Let's make sure that you're notputting on a show. And so I
would say today, in the worldthat we live in, perhaps some of
(16:03):
it is, when was the last timeyou did something and no one
knew about it, and if you can'tremember, or if you want to see
the good deeds, and it's realeasy for you and everyone else
to see them, maybe, Just maybethat might be an indication that
it is the show as opposed to theheart behind it. So just as one
(16:26):
real simple check, there'ssomething powerful when we
something with intentionalitythat is just no big deal people.
It's just not known, done insecret. I think there's real
benefit to that.
Joshua Johnson (16:38):
Let's talk about culture versus structure.
Sometimes we feel like, hey, ifwe have the right structure,
like our leadership is going tobe okay, but our culture is off
a little bit. Sometimes, if welike our our structure may be
off, we don't know, but if wehave the right culture,
sometimes we could still flowand be on on track and still be
(16:59):
intentional and not have thispersonal drift in our lives. How
do we set up a culture thatreally is about empowering, good
leadership, that there's someaccountability? It's not a solo
show all around that culture isthere, and it's not just
policies and structure, becausesometimes you could fib that you
(17:22):
could move in that and notsturdy, strong character.
Peter Greer (17:28):
Yeah, and I would probably say those two fit
together much more of not oneleads to two, but much more of
they both reinforce each other.
You've got all the rightpolicies in place, and then
you've got a leadership teamthat actually doesn't follow it
those policies. It doesn'tmatter at all, right? That's
going to road. And similarly,you got a team that does it, but
(17:49):
you're trying to scale anorganization, and you don't have
the policies that's not going towork in that, and everything's
going to feel like an exceptionor a one off. And you actually
can't scale without thosesystems. So I think they go
together, and I think it is ahealthy thing for a leadership
team to say, Are we are weliving this out? We do surveys
every year, and I can tell you,there is one question that I
(18:10):
value the feedback more than anyother, and it is basically, can
we trust leadership? Is thereintegrity in what they say and
what they do, or are there tonsof exceptions? And if you're at
this level, the normal rulesdon't apply to you. That always
gets individuals into trouble.
(18:30):
So I think of as thereinforcement. Let's create
great policies for team membersto flourish. Let's create a
great system, and let's makesure that we're living it out in
the best way possible, and ifanything, leadership should be
held to a higher standard ofactually being fully
implementing the type ofculture. So at our team here, we
(18:51):
have our culture identified, andwe've got these elements of what
we say we're going to do. And itis a good thing periodically to
ask the team, are we actuallyliving it out? Is there
integrity? Is there alignmentbetween what we say and what we
do? And I think for all of us,the answer is not perfectly yet.
(19:12):
Let's keep working at it. Thatis certainly the case with us
here,
Joshua Johnson (19:17):
as you're scaling an organization, when
I'm looking at a book likeyours, how leaders lose their
way, my first go to are toplevel leaders, but an
organization like yours, youhave lots of different leaders,
and the organization can driftreally easily when leaders at
(19:37):
any level and any place,especially a multinational
organization, you know, indifferent areas, it could start
to drift apart. What is cohesionas you scale with culture and
structure policies in place withthe right leadership, what are
some of the practices for theentire. Organization as people
(20:01):
are leading in their own areas.
Peter Greer (20:04):
Yeah, and we intentionally leadership is
broadly defined, and it's theprinciples are applicable to all
of us on the journey for certainin that. And you know, in the
work that we do at HopeInternational, we've seen we
have a staff in lots ofdifferent countries. And the
reality is, there's asignificant impact. Doesn't
(20:27):
really matter what layer ofleadership, there is a
significant impact when a leaderloses his or her way. And I
think the principle is for allof us to say, what are we doing?
And the analogy that we buildon, and it started in mission,
drift, is basically like there'scurrents, right? And if you stop
doing the rowing, if you stopdoing the work, you're going to
(20:49):
drift to a place that is notwhere you want to be. You will
not get to a place in any aspectof your life just by drifting
there. So the question is, areyou doing the work. Do you know
the destination, and are yourowing in that direction against
the currents that we findourselves in? And that is true
regardless of where you are inan org chart, regardless of
(21:12):
context or geography. Let'sidentify, what does it look like
to have a life of long termfaithfulness? Let's identify
where we're going. And thenlet's ask the questions, and am
I on track or no? Betterquestion, where do I need to
recalibrate? Where do I need tochange direction? Where do I
need to refocus? Those are goodquestions for those who want to
(21:34):
be marked by long termfaithfulness.
Joshua Johnson (21:36):
So as we are faithful and we're rowing, but
then we get into the middle. Weget into the messy middle, the
middle of the ocean, where weknow our destination, but we
can't see it right now. We can'tsee where we came from. We don't
know. All we see is this messywater in the middle, and we're
rowing. We're trying to befaithful. So what is
(21:57):
recalibration and saying, Hey,we've gone off course look like
when you can't see thedestination ahead, what
faithfulness in the messy middlelook like for leaders.
Peter Greer (22:09):
Yeah, and maybe this is little too somber, but
one of the most profoundexperiences of my life was being
in the hospital room when mygrandfather went from this life
to the next, and watching thereaction of my grandmother, who
just, I mean, she threw herselfon him, and watching his kids
(22:33):
and his grandkids all aroundhim, it was one of the most
profound moments of My life. Andeveryone in that room knew that
was a life that was lived welland and I think for all of us,
there is a level of clarity thatcomes when we remember there is
(22:53):
a day that we too will be andwhat do we want to be true at
that moment? And so even if youcan't see the specifics of where
you're going, I think we all,with a piece of paper and a pen,
could jot down a few things thatwe would want to be true at that
moment, and maybe that mighthelp us calibrate or set the
(23:13):
direction of our lives. Whatwould it look like in that
moment for those around us tosay that was a life well lived.
And my grandfather gave me thatgift, an extraordinary gift. He
gave us that picture, and wouldlove nothing more than for that
to be true of my life, thatmoment as well.
Joshua Johnson (23:31):
That's beautiful, that's long term
faithfulness. What does it looklike for a life well lived? And
so it's just yeah, putting thatone foot in front of another,
knowing where you're headed,long term, knowing who you are,
who's who are, and where you'regoing and your purpose, which is
really helpful. Let's get into acase study. Tell me a story of
some leaders that you've talkedto where they found some
(23:54):
personal drift, like they wentoff course. What did it look
like, and what was happening.
And then we'll get into someways, maybe, if we look back,
where did it go off and how wecould stop that now for us,
Peter Greer (24:09):
yeah, and again, so enormously grateful for those
that shared candidly andvulnerably with us, and then we
match that with some of the wellknown stories. Again, not trying
to do investigative journalismby any means, but just trying to
understand it would be foolishnot to learn from some of the
(24:29):
lessons of recent years. And Ihope we got that balance right.
But one of the things that weheard again and again we already
mentioned, it is the individualsthat said, Well, that would
never happen to me, or wouldhear stories of others and say,
Well, that could never happen tome. That is a very that should
be a blinking red light, danger,danger, danger. So that's one is
(24:50):
like, understand, we could allmake a mess of things. We could
all make decisions that wouldnot love or honor or cherish the
people and the organizationsthat we can. Care deeply about.
So that was one consistenttheme. Another consistent theme
is that we've already talkedabout this too, but
relationships, there was no onethat really knew them. And as
shocking as it was forindividuals to come to this
(25:13):
realization, what was almostmore difficult was to hear from
other individuals who were intheir life who said, too, I
never saw this. I I'm a shocked.
I can't believe that thishappened. Number three,
consistently, we heard thatindividuals had long before lost
any sense of a personal, vibrantprayer life. Decisions would
have been made differently ifthey paused and prayed about it.
(25:35):
I guarantee you, is this a goodidea or not just you probably
don't need too long in prayer.
You probably pretty quicklyyou're gonna that's probably not
a good idea. So there were theseconsistent themes that we heard
again and again, and then theother piece that I am so
grateful for that almost everysingle one said, and there was
(25:58):
relief when it was finallydiscovered when whatever it was,
it was eating me up in theinside. I knew it, and no one
else. And healing requiredgreater awareness, and you can't
heal when things are stillstuffed so deeply inside. And so
it led to a lot of healing. Ledto a lot of grace upon grace,
(26:20):
even as there were very realimpact and consequences for
people in organizations as well.
Joshua Johnson (26:26):
I know a lot of leaders that leading
organizations that if there isanything wrong in the
organization, they want to keepit silent. They don't want
anyone to know about what iswrong in the organization. They
just want to keep face. What isthe balance? Then to say, hey,
we have this going on, and it'snot right, and we need to take
(26:48):
care of it. Or, you know, what'sthe balance in leadership, to
figure out when we share, whenwe don't share, what is public?
What's private? Do we have abalance? Do we know what it is.
Peter Greer (27:04):
Did I mention that I'm a practitioner trying to
figure this out in my own life?
I mean, those are complicatedconversations, right? Especially
when it's with people and withinthe organization that is
complicated in that but what Ifind less complicated, they have
the ability to share when I'vegotten it wrong, I have the
ability to say, Hey, I respondedin this way and that wasn't
(27:28):
honoring you, and I'm reallysorry. To own your issues, to
own where you have gotten itwrong, and to demonstrate within
a workplace, no perfection. Herewe are all on the journey and to
celebrate, especially if it issomeone within the organization
that helped you see that youwere on your way down a path
that does not go to where youwant it to go, celebrate
(27:51):
courage, to appreciate those whohave done it. And so I think
maybe that takes it away fromwithin the organization. It's
just not going to be appropriateto deal with every issue in a
context, but it is appropriateto own your stuff, to admit when
you've gotten off track, and toagain, just say this is a place
(28:12):
we're on the journey together,and let's keep helping each
other grow closer to Christ andcloser to each other.
Joshua Johnson (28:19):
Yeah, I'm gonna dive a little deeper into that,
because I've seen some placeswhere when a leader at a certain
level does something theyshouldn't be doing, and they've
had some personal drift, theyget removed from a position, and
the upper level leadership islike, we're not going to tell
You why, but they just didn't doanything right? I've found that
(28:44):
sometimes that erodes some trustin the organization that they
don't know. And they becausethey actually then think that
there's rumors going around.
They think it's worse than itactually is. It's not as bad as
as they they think it is. And sothen there's like, Oh, it's just
it feels like a mess to me whensomething like that happens.
(29:06):
What we do as leaders toactually keep the trust of our
people, to make sure thatconfidences can be confident
like we could not shareeverything, but we can still
hold trust of people in ourorganization.
Peter Greer (29:26):
That's big question, and above my pay
grade, but I will say a coupleof things in response. One is
this, to me, is part of themotivation of elevating this
conversation, because the impactis so real and so severe that,
have we done everything possibleto prevent that? Because those
(29:47):
issues that you just raised,some of them, there's no way
around it. It will erode trust.
It will hurt people. And so thequestion is, we spend so much
time after there's somethinglike this, how much time was
spent prevent? Ending it in thefirst place, and my experience
is there's too little spentupstream from this, and so we're
dealing with these reallycomplex situations when maybe
(30:08):
some of them could have beenaddressed a long time ago in a
very different way. So oh, Ijust I truly long for more
organizations to take preventionmore seriously than they are
right now. How can we protectour teammates? How can we make
sure that the right pieces arein place that just will save you
(30:31):
so much heartache down the road?
But then, when there is asituation like that, I would say
it's understanding that thereare different layers of
conversation. So just oneexample, there are certain
things. We have global staffmeeting, and it's with the
entire team. We also have allmanagers at a different team. We
(30:52):
have an executive leadershipteam that happens, and we have a
board of directors and to have alevel of mapping of
conversation, what is themessage that is most important
for that group? And you're goingto have different abilities to
communicate different thingsbased on that, and then match
that with a posture of and ifyou have any questions, we would
(31:16):
love to have a conversation withyou, to have that openness, to
have that willingness to sharewhat it is that you can share,
but that's going to be differentin a one on one conversation
than perhaps when it's theglobal team that's being
gathered appropriately that'sgoing to be a little bit
different on that so preventionmatters more. Let's prevent
(31:37):
these stories, prevent thoseconversations, but then let's
figure out within anorganization and have a level of
intentionality in the rightmessage for the right audience,
thoughtfully and prayerfullyconsidered.
Joshua Johnson (31:49):
I think mapping those conversations that's
really helpful for us, like,what's the right thing for the
right level right people havethose conversations and actually
to map it out. And that's great.
So then if we were looking atprevention, and we're going
upstream, let's say I'm startingan organization or starting a
business, and I want to then mapout some healthy organizational
(32:10):
practices to set in place for meas a leader, and then for my
leaders coming into theorganization, how do I start?
How do we get organizationalhealth from the very beginning
so that we can prevent thesethings from happening? Okay, you
Peter Greer (32:28):
have asked some great questions. Can we have a
conversation before or work onany future projects? This is
really, really helpful. I'vebeen talking too much. How do
you do that? How have you putthis into practice? That's not
allowed. I sincerely want toknow, how do you do this? I
(32:50):
mean, that's the question forall of us. You're creating your
organization. What would you putin place?
Joshua Johnson (32:55):
I would, I would first put into place a team. If
I'm starting an organization,I'm the main leader. So I'd put
together a team around me whereI could be open, honest,
vulnerable, accountable topeople that would be the first
step to be able to put intoplace. One would have, then also
(33:16):
people that would hold meaccountable to prayer and to
say, is this a good idea fromJoshua, or is this a god idea?
Because I think prayer iscrucial, and it's something as
an apostolically leaning personthat's not my default. I know
what it is, and I know that it'simportant, and I do it. It's
(33:37):
just not my default. So I needsome people to hold me
accountable to prayer and to beon a prayer team. And I think
those two things at the verybeginning, it's going to put me
on to a path where then I couldcreate, what are our values that
we want to hold to, what, youknow, those sorts of culture,
type of things, that then wehave people to hold accountable
(34:00):
as we then scale and grow. Sothat's just the first two things
that I would do to make surethat I am set up for success
later on.
Peter Greer (34:11):
So good. And again, my belief is that if anyone were
to truly take 30 minutes and tothink about these questions, I
think there'd be some similarthemes, right? But then you
match that with how many peoplehave actually done it? And
there's this huge gap just onesimple thing, succession
(34:33):
planning. Everyone would saythat's important to be investing
in the future leaders. How manyorganizations actually have a
succession plan? 17% like hugegap between what we say we would
do or what we believe isimportant, and then what we
actually have done. And so Ijust again, the whole project
is, let's just bring those twotogether. We know what to do.
(34:54):
Let's just do it. And thefascinating case study that we
kind of anchor some of this onis King Solomon. King Solomon
penned so many unbelievableProverbs, and then you look at
his life, and it's like Solomonyou knew just didn't do. And to
me, that is just, that's notjust a King Solomon issue.
That's my issue too. I know morethan I do. So we're just trying
(35:20):
to bring those two a little bittogether with some specific ways
of planning, some specific toolsthat maybe we haven't thought
about. But I thought those two,what great starting points, what
powerful starting points. Howmany issues would be addressed
if we just did those two thatyou just articulated?
Joshua Johnson (35:37):
Yeah, we're so prone to ego and to current
like, we're going to move intocurrents. This is what Solomon
did, you know at the end, thisis what you said, and you laid
out a whole bunch of things thathe pursued his his ultimate
desires on the inside that hedidn't really maybe even want,
(35:58):
and at the end of his life, he'slike, Well, this was all
meaningless like it didn't. Itwas vanity. It was nothing
right. Help us and tell us whatare some of these desires that
he started to pursue, that heended realizing were not the
real thing. Were not not themain thing. They were
meaningless.
Unknown (36:17):
Solomon gives us a long list
Peter Greer (36:22):
of those things.
And again, talk about nothingnew under the sun. You look at
the same ones. I mean, hepursued wealth, he went after
it, and there was no one likehim in terms of what he would
what he amassed. And Queen ofSheba, she's like, it wasn't
even all the things that I'vebeen told. It's even more of
that he had to build. He waslike early into the Self Storage
(36:44):
business, except he had to buildlike cities to hold his stuff.
Of that he he had so much more.
And then you look at his lifeand relationships, he was so
poor in relationships. And thatis a trade that we make today
too, isn't it? Let me just get alittle more. Let me go after
that. And yet we under invest inrelationships, and that is a
(37:08):
terrible trade. It was aterrible trade for King Solomon
and a terrible trade for ustoday. So that is one of the
it's again, nothing new money,sex and power. How many of us,
like those are issues that justpull us away. And Solomon had
copious amounts of all three,and it did not do it for him,
(37:29):
and it does not do it for us aswell. So, yeah, I mean, how many
of us? I mean, the real tragedyfor me are those that you know,
even we read Scripture and weread the account of King
Solomon, and we're like, wow,that was really unwise. From the
wisest person that ever he madesome really unwise decisions
without ever pausing to say, andwhere am I making those similar
(37:52):
decisions, similar compromises,similar good things that we are
creating as ultimate things, misordering our loves in the
pursuit of them. And again, thatis not an ancient story. That is
a today's story as well.
Joshua Johnson (38:09):
Rene Girard talks about mimetic desire, that
whatever the leader is going topursue and their desire is what
the people around them will wantto desire and pursue as well.
And so that, again, tells me, ifI'm going to lead my desires,
better be aligned, right? Ibetter be pursuing God above
(38:30):
else. If not, then, you know,everybody else is going to be
desiring what's what I'mdesiring, and it's just going to
be infighting, and it's notgoing to be healthy whatsoever.
So that's really important toalign our desires correctly to
God. You know, one of thepractices I love, you know,
after your first chapter thereis you talk about writing your
(38:50):
own eulogy. It's you're thinkingabout finishing, well, what you
would like at the end of yourlife? As you look back a couple
of things from your own eulogy,what would you like to be known
for at the end of your life. Youdon't have to give me
everything, because that isyours, but just give me a couple
of things that would be in youreulogy. Yeah.
Peter Greer (39:10):
I mean, if there's multiple people that have talked
about this, but for me, it wasthe David Brooks, right? The
difference between the eulogyvirtues and the resume virtues.
And so much of our life we thinkabout the resume without
actually realizing there is adifferent thing that matters and
is elevated in a eulogy. And soit was a Saturday morning, and I
was writing that my eulogy, andmy wife came down, and I'm like
(39:33):
getting teary, and she asks,What are you doing? And I said,
I'm writing my eulogy. And shegot very concerned. I should
have given more context for thatparticular moment, but it was so
powerful. And again, this ismaybe a little bit unusual, but
it's on my calendar and I readit every on my birthday, it pops
(39:54):
up on my calendar every year Iread it. What a great way to
start your birthday, right? I.
It is actually because itclarifies what matters and no
surprise, right? It talks aboutthe relationships. I talk about
my wife and my kids, and I talkabout the one that I serve. I
talk about my faith and what Ihope is true that will be said
about the way that I lived init. So no surprise, right? Love
(40:17):
God, Love your neighbor and lovethose that are closest to you. I
hope that that will be true inthe way that my life is
described.
Joshua Johnson (40:27):
Isn't that interesting, like, it's it's all
about this pursuit. Like, youknow, if I look at my life, I've
had so many desires to havemajor impact in this world, and
at the end of the day, it'slike, who am I loving? The
people closest to me, what is myrelationship like with them?
Like, it's really at the end ofthe day, the rest of it, I think
(40:51):
it matters. I hope it mattersthat I could actually do some
good in this world and help SEEthe kingdom of God on earth as
it is in heaven. Like, I reallyhope that I can do that by the
end. It's like, who are the onesclosest to you and and how have
you loved? And how have you beenloved? Like, that's it's just
(41:13):
like, that's it for my life.
Like, yeah,
Peter Greer (41:18):
totally. And there's meaning and there's
importance in the work that wedo, for certain, but your number
of podcast subscribers is notgoing to be what is included,
right? I mean, there's somethingthat's going to matter much more
than that, even as we go and wedo this good and meaningful work
(41:40):
without placing it in a place ofultimate importance.
Joshua Johnson (41:44):
Well, I mean, we've, you've hit on this a
couple of times and but I thinkone of the things so as we're
thinking about ending well, andeulogies, and you've talked
about succession planning, thatonly 17% organizations have a
succession plan in place. Again,as you know, you've seen Jim
Collins, right and others right,that organizations after their
(42:04):
founder, they fail usually, andthey don't actually succeed. So
succession is really important,but we don't do it really well.
So how do we start to plan theseto be healthy with succession? I
think this is kind of importanttopic for people to think about
what is next? What are youleaving? What is your legacy?
How do we pass on leadership tothe next generation?
Peter Greer (42:28):
That is the question. And you know, when we
wrote the book mission drift, Ithink we missed that aspect
actually in it, that we didn'ttalk as specifically as there
will always be mission driftwhen one leadership team
transitions to the next, ifthere is not a significant
amount, not just of the knowhow, not just of the technical
(42:51):
aspects of leading or theproduct or service, but actually
the heart behind it. And so oneindividual West Stafford, he
says that the mission of anorganization, is never more
vulnerable than during a time oftransition, like that's a moment
that really matters. And ifthat's the moment that you're
starting to think about thatquestion, it is too late on that
(43:15):
that has to happen a long timebefore. And so I think that
there is an under investment inthinking about this topic. And
again, you mentioned Jim Collinsin his book, how the mighty
fall. He talks about step numberone of how organizations decline
is hubris born of success. And Ithink that element of when
you're successful, you'rethinking about, well, look at
(43:37):
what's happening under myleadership. Look who's happening
under our leadership team, andit takes a posture of humility
to actually think beyondyourself and to say, Great,
that's wonderful, but there isno success without that
effective passing of the baton.
And again, not just for thetechnical piece, but the heart
behind what it is that you aredoing. And so I think those are
(43:58):
some of the reasons. So again,upstream from this issue is a
hard posture of, is it about me,or is it something bigger that
we're going after? Is it if thewhat you're going after can be
achieved in your tenure, in yourtime, then you need to think
about this. But if you're tryingto do something bigger, longer
(44:19):
lasting. You have to think aboutthe next set of leaders and
passing on the baton. And that'snot just at one level of an
organization. That is throughoutan organization that this really
matters.
Joshua Johnson (44:32):
So if you talk to people who pick up the book
how leaders lose their way, whatwould you hope that they would
get from this? What do you hopethat this gives to the world?
Peter Greer (44:40):
I truly hope that people take this seriously, like
before you are at a place likenow, what can we do? And then
the practical tools, hopefullyeverything in there is not just
an idea, but then a practice. Sothat's kind of the way. That we
structure the book is each onehas an issue, and then there is
(45:03):
a practice, and then there is aprayer, and our friend Ryan
school wrote the prayers at theend of each chapter. But really,
I would hope more than anythingelse, that this is not just a
book to read, but this issomething that we can put into
practice so that more of usfinish well. And again, that
sobering statistic, there was astudy that found in Scripture,
(45:26):
only one in three leaders finishwell, meaning they didn't abuse
their power and privilege in asignificant way. And the author
of that says, and the stats areprobably similar today, one out
of three finish well. And I saylike, that's not okay. I think
of my friends, we want to gothree for three that. So what
(45:48):
can we do? So I would hope thatthere is a practical application
of these principles, andhopefully it's equipping more to
be known for that. Again, EugenePeterson writes that long
obedience in the same direction.
Joshua Johnson (46:02):
Amen. Thank you for bringing it practicals, as
you said earlier, you have lotsof knowledge. You know a lot of
things. Solomon had a lot ofknowledge. He was the wisest man
on earth. But it was thepractical working out, the daily
practices of what it looks liketo be intentional, to stay on
track to say, God, this isfaithfulness to you. Make my
(46:24):
heart humble and contrite sothat I could follow God in our
leadership and what we're doing.
So this is fantastic. So thankyou, Peter, that is great. You
know, I'd love to get a coupleof recommendations from you. So
anything you've been reading orwatching lately you could
recommend.
Peter Greer (46:40):
Oh, well, I've been reading and watching a lot about
how leaders lose their way thatI wouldn't recommend at this
point. Too much, too too much ofthat. I mean, then reading, I
just so appreciate PhilipYancey. Two of the most recent
books have been ones that hewrote and his, yeah, his
(47:04):
autobiography, fascinating,fascinating. And then he also
does this case study of 13people that impacted his faith.
That is just terrific as well.
So the recent writing of PhilipYancey, I've rediscovered and
really enjoyed that. That's whatI've been enjoying recently.
Joshua Johnson (47:22):
Great. Well, Peter, thank you for for diving
deep right away in thisconversation and going and
saying, What does it look liketo go upstream to know that we
could prevent some of thispersonal drift, this leadership
failing that we have seen aroundthe world at the moment, and
that we could say we could befaithful to God and our
(47:43):
leadership, our culture, ourvalues and where we're headed,
so that we don't actually havethis drift. And we thank you for
telling us that. Hey, mostpeople say that's never gonna
happen to me, we don't realizeit, but hey, there is something
that we could do about it, andthere are some practical steps
that we could take so that thisdoesn't happen to us, and say
(48:04):
none of us are immune, and thatwe all have to put these things
into practice. So thank you,Peter, it was fantastic
conversation.
Peter Greer (48:10):
Great to be with you. Thanks so much.
Unknown (48:22):
You.
We becomes the pronoun more than me in that
thinking about who's next,thinking about how can I elevate
the voice of others, thinkingabout man, that's a great
invitation, but maybe there'ssomeone who is better served to
do that. The more that you pushback on that arc that bends
inward, I do think is a way, animportant way, to really push
(00:21):
back against some of the thingsthat trip up too many leaders.
Joshua Johnson (00:38):
Hello and welcome to the shift in culture,
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, leadership
drift rarely happens overnight.
It happens in small, unexaminedplaces, habits left unchecked,
relationships neglected,identity tied too tightly to
(00:59):
position or platform. In thisepisode, I sit down again with
Peter Greer, CEO of HopeInternational, and author of How
leaders lose their way to talkabout why so many leaders
struggle to finish. Well, we digit into the subtle patterns of
personal and mission drift, therole of confession and
accountability, the differencebetween culture and structure
(01:20):
and the importance of humility,downward mobility and succession
planning. Peter offers not justtheory, but practical tools,
simple practices that help usrecalibrate, prevent drift and
keep our leadership aligned withfaithfulness over the long haul.
This is a conversation foranyone who longs to serve with
integrity, lead withtransparency, and remain rooted
(01:41):
in God's call, even in the messymiddle. So join us. Here is my
conversation with Peter Greer,well, Peter, welcome back to
shifting culture. Excited tohave you back on thanks for
joining me again.
Peter Greer (01:57):
Thank you for having me looking forward to the
conversation I'm excited to get
Joshua Johnson (02:01):
in and dive into how leaders are losing their
way. We're going to talk abouthow and why they're losing their
way. You know, you wrote aboutmission drift in the past. You
got a lot of examples fromdifferent people and
organizations of mission drift,and as you were looking at
those, you saw that there was aparallel personal drift that was
(02:22):
happening with leaders, and sothat's one of the reasons why
Mission Drift was happening inyour life. Let's go
introspective first, and thenwe'll go into a higher level.
What does it look like so inyour life and your leadership,
have you experienced somepersonal drift, and what did
that look like for you? Andmaybe, how did you make your way
back?
Peter Greer (02:42):
All right, we're just going right in, aren't we?
We
Unknown (02:44):
are diving in. We are
Peter Greer (02:47):
it's easier sometimes to see in others than
to seeing yourself, isn't it?
And actually, that was one ofthe consistent themes that we
found that regularly people thatexperience significant drift,
they thought it would neverhappen to me, and I can tell
you, looking at this issue,studying it, it has only
heightened my awareness as thathymn for many years ago, says,
Prone to wander, Lord, I feelit, and every single one of us
(03:10):
are the seeds for drift. And Ithink the challenge is that it's
easy to see when someonecompletely loses their way,
right? I mean, that's when wesee the headlines. That's when
we see these significant events.
What is far more difficult tospot is to go upstream and to
say, where did they initially gooff track? And I think that's
(03:30):
maybe the answer to yourquestion very directly is, you
know, thankfully, I've not hadanything that would hit
headlines. But the question is,where are the practices, where
the habits, where the attitudesgo upstream. And I think that's
where the interesting piece is,because that is a long list of
that. And if anything this kindof writing the book and
(03:50):
researching this has done, itsaid these small issues are not
small. And aggregate these smallthings we might think are no big
deal, actually become a very bigdeal if we leave them
unaddressed.
Joshua Johnson (04:04):
So what are some of the things that people
usually leave unaddressed? Whatare these small issues that when
we go upstream, that they willlead to something that we don't
recognize it at the moment, butlater on down the line, you're
like, Oh, we found ourselves wayoff and we didn't realize
Peter Greer (04:19):
it. Yeah. So one of the interesting pieces, so
again, we looked at leaders, andwe I was always amazed at how
many were so kind, so open,handed in sharing their story.
And every single one had asimpler theme of, I just wish I
could go back. I wish that Icould go back, and I would do
that differently. I would dothat differently. And so one of
(04:40):
the specific ones is, for a lotof individuals, they get so busy
their work is all encompassing,and the number of people that
actually know them is very, verysmall, even if you have the
right form individuals that youtruly can be very open handed. I
was talking with one. Leader.
And he said, I finally am at apoint that I have no secrets. I
(05:02):
have a friend that knowseverything about me. And I
thought that is, I don't havethat that is wise. But the
number of things that truly arelike we know in our heart are
there, but no one else knowsthem. The more that we put in
that box it's like, the more weare just setting ourselves up
for a lot of challenge. Sothat's one real practical piece,
(05:23):
and it changed as a result ofdoing this work, is to have
individuals that there isgreater degree of transparency,
and hopefully over time, I getto that same spot as my friend,
saying, You know what, I amfully known those things that
are left unaddressed, that areleft unsaid, those are the
things that over time, tend totrip us up, just as one very
small example,
Joshua Johnson (05:44):
yeah, even with four busy people don't know us.
I just talked to one leader whois part of a confessional
community, and that's an ongoingnormal practice to confess in
community with others. And Ithink one of the reason, even
reasons for moral failure. Andbigger failure is that we don't
make confession normal. It's notnormalized. We don't actually
(06:08):
say, No, me, how do we start tomaybe set something up where
people do in a safe environment?
We can be vulnerable with withthe few. Jesus was really, you
know, deep with three, not withall of the 12. He shared more
with three than he did withothers. He was even deeper with
the one, which was the fatherheaven. So how do we like go
into a place where we can havethose and people know our
(06:32):
secrets we can confess so thatwe could continue to stay
healthy?
Peter Greer (06:36):
Yeah, I think that's a very practical piece.
We are not having that safespace. Everyone's going to be
surprised right when, ifsomething happens in the future,
in that, and oftentimes it'sthose old friendships. Just in
my own life, I have a group ofpeople that know me as Pete.
Anyone who knew me throughcollege, they knew me as Pete.
(06:58):
Anyone after that, I kind of, Idon't know, Peter is what I got
known as, and I was with one notthat long ago, and he looked at
me and he said, Hey, Pete,you're being an idiot.
Joshua Johnson (07:10):
He was right. He was totally right. So
Peter Greer (07:13):
having those individuals that you're doing
life with, and that takes years.
Those types of friendships arenot formed in a moment. Those
types of friendships take years,and so maybe a real simple
practice would be to say, lookat your calendar, and what are
the frequency that you werehaving those times to connect.
At this point, I have thatparticular individual. We're on
(07:34):
a calendar where once a monthwe're getting together and we're
going for a walk. Anotherindividual. Every Friday
morning, we are starting our daytogether. We are praying
together. And it was likebelieving that this matters was
finally reflected on mycalendar, and we got to bring
those two things together, whatwe say matters to us, and then
making sure that there actuallyis time and space set apart. So
(07:57):
again, this is like high level,simple stuff, but what we found
is leaders who lost their way.
It's not because they didn'tknow. It's because they didn't
do and so how can we bring thosetwo things together
Joshua Johnson (08:10):
as the intentionality of the thing that
we need over and over again, andwe need to be intentional to
continue to stay on track, oneof the things in this isolation
moment that we have withleaders, and I see a lot of up
and coming leaders, the youngerleaders. Leaders want to share
leadership. They don't want tobe the solo heroic leader in the
(08:33):
church, in nonprofits, inbusiness. What have you found as
you looked at shared leadership?
Is there a difference betweenleaders who lose their way and
they don't if leadership isshared, and it's not just on
one.
Peter Greer (08:46):
Yeah. So one of the pieces that was just, again,
really sobering to me, torealize, is to say so much of
this is like upstream inattitudes and thoughts like
that's where it starts. And Ithink one of the attitudes and
thoughts is that I am what I do,that this identity that I have
(09:08):
because of the work that I do,or the platform that I have, or
the way that I speak like that,is my identity. And the more
that you say that, then allthese other issues that we're
just talking about, let'sdownplay them. Let's push them
aside. Let's put them in thebox. And that is not a healthy
thing. So I would imagine thatthat's sort of a shared
leadership to say no, there's agroup of people that are doing
(09:30):
it. We becomes the pronoun morethan me in that thinking about
who's next, thinking about howcan I elevate the voice of
others, thinking about man,that's a great invitation, but
maybe there's someone who isbetter served to do that. The
more that you push back on thatarc that bends inward, I do
think is a way, an importantway, to really push back against
(09:53):
some of the things that trip uptoo many leaders.
Joshua Johnson (09:56):
Martin Luther talked about the inward arc as.
Sin. And he talked about that iswhat sin looks like. Is an
inward arc. And so what doesthat then like? Empowering
leadership look like to giveaway some things. And it's not
really just about power andcontrol, just about us, but it
is something of more of hey, aninspiration, empowering to
(10:21):
people so that they can actuallyrun with what God has given them
as well.
Peter Greer (10:27):
There's a lot of books that are written by some
amazing theologians. There's alot of incredible thought that
is out there. I'm apractitioner. I want to know,
how do I how do I actually putthis into practice in my life so
I don't lose my way? Like, whatdo we actually do about it? And
one of the things that we foundagain and again is that leaders
that actually did have that longterm faithfulness, that
(10:49):
succession planning wassomething that they regularly
thought about and acted upon.
And I think that is one of thechecks of our heart, a real
simple practice that I did wasto actually write my resignation
letter. And that was powerful.
Like you don't realize quite somuch about how much of your
(11:10):
identity slowly is intertwined.
Writing that letter, putting it,I mean, I've got it, and then
remembering that today, I'm oneday closer to sending that
letter than I was yesterday.
That is going to happen. It's aquestion of not if, but when I
step aside. And you know whatthat does? It clarifies that
there are things that are goingto be true the day after I send
(11:32):
that letter. There are thingsthat are going to be true about
other ways of who I am that arenot necessarily just this work
that I do. And we found thatleaders that had that ability to
long term faithfulness, theyjust held pretty loosely onto
what they did and held prettytightly to whose they are, and
that has real implications forhow we lead and how we go about
(11:55):
our work.
Joshua Johnson (11:56):
I mean, even as I was reading the foreword here,
but Chris horse was talkingabout how, you know, as he moved
away from Hope International, hemoved into a new season that he
felt like God was calling himwhen the email started to go
away and his inbox wasn't veryfull. It was an identity crisis,
right? It was a who really, amI? Am I the person that you know
(12:19):
wants this full inbox because,you know, there's some status in
there. Or am I somebody who aGod is calling me and I'm a
child of God, I'm somebody thatI find my identity somewhere
else. How do you navigateidentity issues for you and your
leadership, where, knowing thatyou've done incredible things,
(12:39):
people look at you like you'rethe CEO of Hope International,
like that's an identity markerin your own life. How do you not
make that your entire identity?
How do you find it somewhereelse?
Peter Greer (12:53):
So one of the other pieces is I write about topics
that are of interest to me, thatI do not claim to be an expert
in I'm on this journey trying tofigure this out. I want to hear
from you how you do it on that.
But I think one of the practicesagain that we heard again and
again, it was interesting tohear just there were certain
themes that came up again andagain and again, and one of the
(13:14):
themes that came up again andagain is there's something about
downward mobility and service asa way to check our own heart and
our own identity, and if we everstart buying into the lie, well,
that task. I mean, other peopleshould do that. That's not my
that we wouldn't say this maybequite so directly, but that is a
(13:36):
little bit below me. That's notthe way of Jesus, and that is
not the way to long termlongevity in leadership. And so
we have a phrase we talk about aclean a latrine. There's
something really powerful whensomething needs to be done. Are
you the one who looks to others?
(13:56):
Are you the one who rolls upyour sleeves and figures out
what it looks like to serve. Andagain, I think this is the
incredible upside down way ofthinking about power that is
modeled by Jesus. He literallydid the task that no one else
could even be forced to do, oftaking that posture of washing
feet. And I think that doesn'ttranslate culturally in the same
(14:18):
way today as it did back then,but the principle absolutely
does, what are those things thatwe can do? And I think the more
that we do that the title goesaway and is replaced by, I want
to be someone who's known forloving and serving others, and
that is more important than theofficial title that I have in my
(14:40):
job. So there's something aboutdownward mobility. There's
something about willingness toserve. There's something about
cleaning of latrine that helpsdisaggregate role from who we
are as individuals, andhopefully we're individuals that
are known being willing tofollow in that example.
Joshua Johnson (14:56):
Yes, the example is fantastic. I've. Seen people
who do that that their heartposture is still like I am the
title. I'm just doing this sothat I could put you on my
shoulders and elevate you alittle bit, but it's really
about me still. How do we makesure that our heart is in the
right spot, even while serving?
And it's not about doing itbecause I want you to see how
(15:20):
good of a leader I am, or that Iwant you to look and say, Oh,
you're so humble, but it is atrue, humble heart posture like
it is, because that is a check,right? It's a check for me. It's
like, Hey, I just want you tosee how humble I am,
Peter Greer (15:41):
best at being humble? You're so good at it?
No, I think this is where real,practically, Jesus gave some
things. And in that context, ifyou're doing generosity, hey,
let's make sure that it's notfor all to see you're fasting.
Let's make sure that you're notputting on a show. And so I
would say today, in the worldthat we live in, perhaps some of
(16:03):
it is, when was the last timeyou did something and no one
knew about it, and if you can'tremember, or if you want to see
the good deeds, and it's realeasy for you and everyone else
to see them, maybe, Just maybethat might be an indication that
it is the show as opposed to theheart behind it. So just as one
(16:26):
real simple check, there'ssomething powerful when we
something with intentionalitythat is just no big deal people.
It's just not known, done insecret. I think there's real
benefit to that.
Joshua Johnson (16:38):
Let's talk about culture versus structure.
Sometimes we feel like, hey, ifwe have the right structure,
like our leadership is going tobe okay, but our culture is off
a little bit. Sometimes, if welike our our structure may be
off, we don't know, but if wehave the right culture,
sometimes we could still flowand be on on track and still be
(16:59):
intentional and not have thispersonal drift in our lives. How
do we set up a culture thatreally is about empowering, good
leadership, that there's someaccountability? It's not a solo
show all around that culture isthere, and it's not just
policies and structure, becausesometimes you could fib that you
(17:22):
could move in that and notsturdy, strong character.
Peter Greer (17:28):
Yeah, and I would probably say those two fit
together much more of not oneleads to two, but much more of
they both reinforce each other.
You've got all the rightpolicies in place, and then
you've got a leadership teamthat actually doesn't follow it
those policies. It doesn'tmatter at all, right? That's
going to road. And similarly,you got a team that does it, but
(17:49):
you're trying to scale anorganization, and you don't have
the policies that's not going towork in that, and everything's
going to feel like an exceptionor a one off. And you actually
can't scale without thosesystems. So I think they go
together, and I think it is ahealthy thing for a leadership
team to say, Are we are weliving this out? We do surveys
every year, and I can tell you,there is one question that I
(18:10):
value the feedback more than anyother, and it is basically, can
we trust leadership? Is thereintegrity in what they say and
what they do, or are there tonsof exceptions? And if you're at
this level, the normal rulesdon't apply to you. That always
gets individuals into trouble.
(18:30):
So I think of as thereinforcement. Let's create
great policies for team membersto flourish. Let's create a
great system, and let's makesure that we're living it out in
the best way possible, and ifanything, leadership should be
held to a higher standard ofactually being fully
implementing the type ofculture. So at our team here, we
(18:51):
have our culture identified, andwe've got these elements of what
we say we're going to do. And itis a good thing periodically to
ask the team, are we actuallyliving it out? Is there
integrity? Is there alignmentbetween what we say and what we
do? And I think for all of us,the answer is not perfectly yet.
(19:12):
Let's keep working at it. Thatis certainly the case with us
here,
Joshua Johnson (19:17):
as you're scaling an organization, when
I'm looking at a book likeyours, how leaders lose their
way, my first go to are toplevel leaders, but an
organization like yours, youhave lots of different leaders,
and the organization can driftreally easily when leaders at
(19:37):
any level and any place,especially a multinational
organization, you know, indifferent areas, it could start
to drift apart. What is cohesionas you scale with culture and
structure policies in place withthe right leadership, what are
some of the practices for theentire. Organization as people
(20:01):
are leading in their own areas.
Peter Greer (20:04):
Yeah, and we intentionally leadership is
broadly defined, and it's theprinciples are applicable to all
of us on the journey for certainin that. And you know, in the
work that we do at HopeInternational, we've seen we
have a staff in lots ofdifferent countries. And the
reality is, there's asignificant impact. Doesn't
(20:27):
really matter what layer ofleadership, there is a
significant impact when a leaderloses his or her way. And I
think the principle is for allof us to say, what are we doing?
And the analogy that we buildon, and it started in mission,
drift, is basically like there'scurrents, right? And if you stop
doing the rowing, if you stopdoing the work, you're going to
(20:49):
drift to a place that is notwhere you want to be. You will
not get to a place in any aspectof your life just by drifting
there. So the question is, areyou doing the work. Do you know
the destination, and are yourowing in that direction against
the currents that we findourselves in? And that is true
regardless of where you are inan org chart, regardless of
(21:12):
context or geography. Let'sidentify, what does it look like
to have a life of long termfaithfulness? Let's identify
where we're going. And thenlet's ask the questions, and am
I on track or no? Betterquestion, where do I need to
recalibrate? Where do I need tochange direction? Where do I
need to refocus? Those are goodquestions for those who want to
(21:34):
be marked by long termfaithfulness.
Joshua Johnson (21:36):
So as we are faithful and we're rowing, but
then we get into the middle. Weget into the messy middle, the
middle of the ocean, where weknow our destination, but we
can't see it right now. We can'tsee where we came from. We don't
know. All we see is this messywater in the middle, and we're
rowing. We're trying to befaithful. So what is
(21:57):
recalibration and saying, Hey,we've gone off course look like
when you can't see thedestination ahead, what
faithfulness in the messy middlelook like for leaders.
Peter Greer (22:09):
Yeah, and maybe this is little too somber, but
one of the most profoundexperiences of my life was being
in the hospital room when mygrandfather went from this life
to the next, and watching thereaction of my grandmother, who
just, I mean, she threw herselfon him, and watching his kids
(22:33):
and his grandkids all aroundhim, it was one of the most
profound moments of My life. Andeveryone in that room knew that
was a life that was lived welland and I think for all of us,
there is a level of clarity thatcomes when we remember there is
(22:53):
a day that we too will be andwhat do we want to be true at
that moment? And so even if youcan't see the specifics of where
you're going, I think we all,with a piece of paper and a pen,
could jot down a few things thatwe would want to be true at that
moment, and maybe that mighthelp us calibrate or set the
(23:13):
direction of our lives. Whatwould it look like in that
moment for those around us tosay that was a life well lived.
And my grandfather gave me thatgift, an extraordinary gift. He
gave us that picture, and wouldlove nothing more than for that
to be true of my life, thatmoment as well.
Joshua Johnson (23:31):
That's beautiful, that's long term
faithfulness. What does it looklike for a life well lived? And
so it's just yeah, putting thatone foot in front of another,
knowing where you're headed,long term, knowing who you are,
who's who are, and where you'regoing and your purpose, which is
really helpful. Let's get into acase study. Tell me a story of
some leaders that you've talkedto where they found some
(23:54):
personal drift, like they wentoff course. What did it look
like, and what was happening.
And then we'll get into someways, maybe, if we look back,
where did it go off and how wecould stop that now for us,
Peter Greer (24:09):
yeah, and again, so enormously grateful for those
that shared candidly andvulnerably with us, and then we
match that with some of the wellknown stories. Again, not trying
to do investigative journalismby any means, but just trying to
understand it would be foolishnot to learn from some of the
(24:29):
lessons of recent years. And Ihope we got that balance right.
But one of the things that weheard again and again we already
mentioned, it is the individualsthat said, Well, that would
never happen to me, or wouldhear stories of others and say,
Well, that could never happen tome. That is a very that should
be a blinking red light, danger,danger, danger. So that's one is
(24:50):
like, understand, we could allmake a mess of things. We could
all make decisions that wouldnot love or honor or cherish the
people and the organizationsthat we can. Care deeply about.
So that was one consistenttheme. Another consistent theme
is that we've already talkedabout this too, but
relationships, there was no onethat really knew them. And as
shocking as it was forindividuals to come to this
(25:13):
realization, what was almostmore difficult was to hear from
other individuals who were intheir life who said, too, I
never saw this. I I'm a shocked.
I can't believe that thishappened. Number three,
consistently, we heard thatindividuals had long before lost
any sense of a personal, vibrantprayer life. Decisions would
have been made differently ifthey paused and prayed about it.
(25:35):
I guarantee you, is this a goodidea or not just you probably
don't need too long in prayer.
You probably pretty quicklyyou're gonna that's probably not
a good idea. So there were theseconsistent themes that we heard
again and again, and then theother piece that I am so
grateful for that almost everysingle one said, and there was
(25:58):
relief when it was finallydiscovered when whatever it was,
it was eating me up in theinside. I knew it, and no one
else. And healing requiredgreater awareness, and you can't
heal when things are stillstuffed so deeply inside. And so
it led to a lot of healing. Ledto a lot of grace upon grace,
(26:20):
even as there were very realimpact and consequences for
people in organizations as well.
Joshua Johnson (26:26):
I know a lot of leaders that leading
organizations that if there isanything wrong in the
organization, they want to keepit silent. They don't want
anyone to know about what iswrong in the organization. They
just want to keep face. What isthe balance? Then to say, hey,
we have this going on, and it'snot right, and we need to take
(26:48):
care of it. Or, you know, what'sthe balance in leadership, to
figure out when we share, whenwe don't share, what is public?
What's private? Do we have abalance? Do we know what it is.
Peter Greer (27:04):
Did I mention that I'm a practitioner trying to
figure this out in my own life?
I mean, those are complicatedconversations, right? Especially
when it's with people and withinthe organization that is
complicated in that but what Ifind less complicated, they have
the ability to share when I'vegotten it wrong, I have the
ability to say, Hey, I respondedin this way and that wasn't
(27:28):
honoring you, and I'm reallysorry. To own your issues, to
own where you have gotten itwrong, and to demonstrate within
a workplace, no perfection. Herewe are all on the journey and to
celebrate, especially if it issomeone within the organization
that helped you see that youwere on your way down a path
that does not go to where youwant it to go, celebrate
(27:51):
courage, to appreciate those whohave done it. And so I think
maybe that takes it away fromwithin the organization. It's
just not going to be appropriateto deal with every issue in a
context, but it is appropriateto own your stuff, to admit when
you've gotten off track, and toagain, just say this is a place
(28:12):
we're on the journey together,and let's keep helping each
other grow closer to Christ andcloser to each other.
Joshua Johnson (28:19):
Yeah, I'm gonna dive a little deeper into that,
because I've seen some placeswhere when a leader at a certain
level does something theyshouldn't be doing, and they've
had some personal drift, theyget removed from a position, and
the upper level leadership islike, we're not going to tell
You why, but they just didn't doanything right? I've found that
(28:44):
sometimes that erodes some trustin the organization that they
don't know. And they becausethey actually then think that
there's rumors going around.
They think it's worse than itactually is. It's not as bad as
as they they think it is. And sothen there's like, Oh, it's just
it feels like a mess to me whensomething like that happens.
(29:06):
What we do as leaders toactually keep the trust of our
people, to make sure thatconfidences can be confident
like we could not shareeverything, but we can still
hold trust of people in ourorganization.
Peter Greer (29:26):
That's big question, and above my pay
grade, but I will say a coupleof things in response. One is
this, to me, is part of themotivation of elevating this
conversation, because the impactis so real and so severe that,
have we done everything possibleto prevent that? Because those
(29:47):
issues that you just raised,some of them, there's no way
around it. It will erode trust.
It will hurt people. And so thequestion is, we spend so much
time after there's somethinglike this, how much time was
spent prevent? Ending it in thefirst place, and my experience
is there's too little spentupstream from this, and so we're
dealing with these reallycomplex situations when maybe
(30:08):
some of them could have beenaddressed a long time ago in a
very different way. So oh, Ijust I truly long for more
organizations to take preventionmore seriously than they are
right now. How can we protectour teammates? How can we make
sure that the right pieces arein place that just will save you
(30:31):
so much heartache down the road?
But then, when there is asituation like that, I would say
it's understanding that thereare different layers of
conversation. So just oneexample, there are certain
things. We have global staffmeeting, and it's with the
entire team. We also have allmanagers at a different team. We
(30:52):
have an executive leadershipteam that happens, and we have a
board of directors and to have alevel of mapping of
conversation, what is themessage that is most important
for that group? And you're goingto have different abilities to
communicate different thingsbased on that, and then match
that with a posture of and ifyou have any questions, we would
(31:16):
love to have a conversation withyou, to have that openness, to
have that willingness to sharewhat it is that you can share,
but that's going to be differentin a one on one conversation
than perhaps when it's theglobal team that's being
gathered appropriately that'sgoing to be a little bit
different on that so preventionmatters more. Let's prevent
(31:37):
these stories, prevent thoseconversations, but then let's
figure out within anorganization and have a level of
intentionality in the rightmessage for the right audience,
thoughtfully and prayerfullyconsidered.
Joshua Johnson (31:49):
I think mapping those conversations that's
really helpful for us, like,what's the right thing for the
right level right people havethose conversations and actually
to map it out. And that's great.
So then if we were looking atprevention, and we're going
upstream, let's say I'm startingan organization or starting a
business, and I want to then mapout some healthy organizational
(32:10):
practices to set in place for meas a leader, and then for my
leaders coming into theorganization, how do I start?
How do we get organizationalhealth from the very beginning
so that we can prevent thesethings from happening? Okay, you
Peter Greer (32:28):
have asked some great questions. Can we have a
conversation before or work onany future projects? This is
really, really helpful. I'vebeen talking too much. How do
you do that? How have you putthis into practice? That's not
allowed. I sincerely want toknow, how do you do this? I
(32:50):
mean, that's the question forall of us. You're creating your
organization. What would you putin place?
Joshua Johnson (32:55):
I would, I would first put into place a team. If
I'm starting an organization,I'm the main leader. So I'd put
together a team around me whereI could be open, honest,
vulnerable, accountable topeople that would be the first
step to be able to put intoplace. One would have, then also
(33:16):
people that would hold meaccountable to prayer and to
say, is this a good idea fromJoshua, or is this a god idea?
Because I think prayer iscrucial, and it's something as
an apostolically leaning personthat's not my default. I know
what it is, and I know that it'simportant, and I do it. It's
(33:37):
just not my default. So I needsome people to hold me
accountable to prayer and to beon a prayer team. And I think
those two things at the verybeginning, it's going to put me
on to a path where then I couldcreate, what are our values that
we want to hold to, what, youknow, those sorts of culture,
type of things, that then wehave people to hold accountable
(34:00):
as we then scale and grow. Sothat's just the first two things
that I would do to make surethat I am set up for success
later on.
Peter Greer (34:11):
So good. And again, my belief is that if anyone were
to truly take 30 minutes and tothink about these questions, I
think there'd be some similarthemes, right? But then you
match that with how many peoplehave actually done it? And
there's this huge gap just onesimple thing, succession
(34:33):
planning. Everyone would saythat's important to be investing
in the future leaders. How manyorganizations actually have a
succession plan? 17% like hugegap between what we say we would
do or what we believe isimportant, and then what we
actually have done. And so Ijust again, the whole project
is, let's just bring those twotogether. We know what to do.
(34:54):
Let's just do it. And thefascinating case study that we
kind of anchor some of this onis King Solomon. King Solomon
penned so many unbelievableProverbs, and then you look at
his life, and it's like Solomonyou knew just didn't do. And to
me, that is just, that's notjust a King Solomon issue.
That's my issue too. I know morethan I do. So we're just trying
(35:20):
to bring those two a little bittogether with some specific ways
of planning, some specific toolsthat maybe we haven't thought
about. But I thought those two,what great starting points, what
powerful starting points. Howmany issues would be addressed
if we just did those two thatyou just articulated?
Joshua Johnson (35:37):
Yeah, we're so prone to ego and to current
like, we're going to move intocurrents. This is what Solomon
did, you know at the end, thisis what you said, and you laid
out a whole bunch of things thathe pursued his his ultimate
desires on the inside that hedidn't really maybe even want,
(35:58):
and at the end of his life, he'slike, Well, this was all
meaningless like it didn't. Itwas vanity. It was nothing
right. Help us and tell us whatare some of these desires that
he started to pursue, that heended realizing were not the
real thing. Were not not themain thing. They were
meaningless.
Unknown (36:17):
Solomon gives us a long list
Peter Greer (36:22):
of those things.
And again, talk about nothingnew under the sun. You look at
the same ones. I mean, hepursued wealth, he went after
it, and there was no one likehim in terms of what he would
what he amassed. And Queen ofSheba, she's like, it wasn't
even all the things that I'vebeen told. It's even more of
that he had to build. He waslike early into the Self Storage
(36:44):
business, except he had to buildlike cities to hold his stuff.
Of that he he had so much more.
And then you look at his lifeand relationships, he was so
poor in relationships. And thatis a trade that we make today
too, isn't it? Let me just get alittle more. Let me go after
that. And yet we under invest inrelationships, and that is a
(37:08):
terrible trade. It was aterrible trade for King Solomon
and a terrible trade for ustoday. So that is one of the
it's again, nothing new money,sex and power. How many of us,
like those are issues that justpull us away. And Solomon had
copious amounts of all three,and it did not do it for him,
(37:29):
and it does not do it for us aswell. So, yeah, I mean, how many
of us? I mean, the real tragedyfor me are those that you know,
even we read Scripture and weread the account of King
Solomon, and we're like, wow,that was really unwise. From the
wisest person that ever he madesome really unwise decisions
without ever pausing to say, andwhere am I making those similar
(37:52):
decisions, similar compromises,similar good things that we are
creating as ultimate things, misordering our loves in the
pursuit of them. And again, thatis not an ancient story. That is
a today's story as well.
Joshua Johnson (38:09):
Rene Girard talks about mimetic desire, that
whatever the leader is going topursue and their desire is what
the people around them will wantto desire and pursue as well.
And so that, again, tells me, ifI'm going to lead my desires,
better be aligned, right? Ibetter be pursuing God above
(38:30):
else. If not, then, you know,everybody else is going to be
desiring what's what I'mdesiring, and it's just going to
be infighting, and it's notgoing to be healthy whatsoever.
So that's really important toalign our desires correctly to
God. You know, one of thepractices I love, you know,
after your first chapter thereis you talk about writing your
(38:50):
own eulogy. It's you're thinkingabout finishing, well, what you
would like at the end of yourlife? As you look back a couple
of things from your own eulogy,what would you like to be known
for at the end of your life. Youdon't have to give me
everything, because that isyours, but just give me a couple
of things that would be in youreulogy. Yeah.
Peter Greer (39:10):
I mean, if there's multiple people that have talked
about this, but for me, it wasthe David Brooks, right? The
difference between the eulogyvirtues and the resume virtues.
And so much of our life we thinkabout the resume without
actually realizing there is adifferent thing that matters and
is elevated in a eulogy. And soit was a Saturday morning, and I
was writing that my eulogy, andmy wife came down, and I'm like
(39:33):
getting teary, and she asks,What are you doing? And I said,
I'm writing my eulogy. And shegot very concerned. I should
have given more context for thatparticular moment, but it was so
powerful. And again, this ismaybe a little bit unusual, but
it's on my calendar and I readit every on my birthday, it pops
(39:54):
up on my calendar every year Iread it. What a great way to
start your birthday, right? I.
It is actually because itclarifies what matters and no
surprise, right? It talks aboutthe relationships. I talk about
my wife and my kids, and I talkabout the one that I serve. I
talk about my faith and what Ihope is true that will be said
about the way that I lived init. So no surprise, right? Love
(40:17):
God, Love your neighbor and lovethose that are closest to you. I
hope that that will be true inthe way that my life is
described.
Joshua Johnson (40:27):
Isn't that interesting, like, it's it's all
about this pursuit. Like, youknow, if I look at my life, I've
had so many desires to havemajor impact in this world, and
at the end of the day, it'slike, who am I loving? The
people closest to me, what is myrelationship like with them?
Like, it's really at the end ofthe day, the rest of it, I think
(40:51):
it matters. I hope it mattersthat I could actually do some
good in this world and help SEEthe kingdom of God on earth as
it is in heaven. Like, I reallyhope that I can do that by the
end. It's like, who are the onesclosest to you and and how have
you loved? And how have you beenloved? Like, that's it's just
(41:13):
like, that's it for my life.
Like, yeah,
Peter Greer (41:18):
totally. And there's meaning and there's
importance in the work that wedo, for certain, but your number
of podcast subscribers is notgoing to be what is included,
right? I mean, there's somethingthat's going to matter much more
than that, even as we go and wedo this good and meaningful work
(41:40):
without placing it in a place ofultimate importance.
Joshua Johnson (41:44):
Well, I mean, we've, you've hit on this a
couple of times and but I thinkone of the things so as we're
thinking about ending well, andeulogies, and you've talked
about succession planning, thatonly 17% organizations have a
succession plan in place. Again,as you know, you've seen Jim
Collins, right and others right,that organizations after their
(42:04):
founder, they fail usually, andthey don't actually succeed. So
succession is really important,but we don't do it really well.
So how do we start to plan theseto be healthy with succession? I
think this is kind of importanttopic for people to think about
what is next? What are youleaving? What is your legacy?
How do we pass on leadership tothe next generation?
Peter Greer (42:28):
That is the question. And you know, when we
wrote the book mission drift, Ithink we missed that aspect
actually in it, that we didn'ttalk as specifically as there
will always be mission driftwhen one leadership team
transitions to the next, ifthere is not a significant
amount, not just of the knowhow, not just of the technical
(42:51):
aspects of leading or theproduct or service, but actually
the heart behind it. And so oneindividual West Stafford, he
says that the mission of anorganization, is never more
vulnerable than during a time oftransition, like that's a moment
that really matters. And ifthat's the moment that you're
starting to think about thatquestion, it is too late on that
(43:15):
that has to happen a long timebefore. And so I think that
there is an under investment inthinking about this topic. And
again, you mentioned Jim Collinsin his book, how the mighty
fall. He talks about step numberone of how organizations decline
is hubris born of success. And Ithink that element of when
you're successful, you'rethinking about, well, look at
(43:37):
what's happening under myleadership. Look who's happening
under our leadership team, andit takes a posture of humility
to actually think beyondyourself and to say, Great,
that's wonderful, but there isno success without that
effective passing of the baton.
And again, not just for thetechnical piece, but the heart
behind what it is that you aredoing. And so I think those are
(43:58):
some of the reasons. So again,upstream from this issue is a
hard posture of, is it about me,or is it something bigger that
we're going after? Is it if thewhat you're going after can be
achieved in your tenure, in yourtime, then you need to think
about this. But if you're tryingto do something bigger, longer
(44:19):
lasting. You have to think aboutthe next set of leaders and
passing on the baton. And that'snot just at one level of an
organization. That is throughoutan organization that this really
matters.
Joshua Johnson (44:32):
So if you talk to people who pick up the book
how leaders lose their way, whatwould you hope that they would
get from this? What do you hopethat this gives to the world?
Peter Greer (44:40):
I truly hope that people take this seriously, like
before you are at a place likenow, what can we do? And then
the practical tools, hopefullyeverything in there is not just
an idea, but then a practice. Sothat's kind of the way. That we
structure the book is each onehas an issue, and then there is
(45:03):
a practice, and then there is aprayer, and our friend Ryan
school wrote the prayers at theend of each chapter. But really,
I would hope more than anythingelse, that this is not just a
book to read, but this issomething that we can put into
practice so that more of usfinish well. And again, that
sobering statistic, there was astudy that found in Scripture,
(45:26):
only one in three leaders finishwell, meaning they didn't abuse
their power and privilege in asignificant way. And the author
of that says, and the stats areprobably similar today, one out
of three finish well. And I saylike, that's not okay. I think
of my friends, we want to gothree for three that. So what
(45:48):
can we do? So I would hope thatthere is a practical application
of these principles, andhopefully it's equipping more to
be known for that. Again, EugenePeterson writes that long
obedience in the same direction.
Joshua Johnson (46:02):
Amen. Thank you for bringing it practicals, as
you said earlier, you have lotsof knowledge. You know a lot of
things. Solomon had a lot ofknowledge. He was the wisest man
on earth. But it was thepractical working out, the daily
practices of what it looks liketo be intentional, to stay on
track to say, God, this isfaithfulness to you. Make my
(46:24):
heart humble and contrite sothat I could follow God in our
leadership and what we're doing.
So this is fantastic. So thankyou, Peter, that is great. You
know, I'd love to get a coupleof recommendations from you. So
anything you've been reading orwatching lately you could
recommend.
Peter Greer (46:40):
Oh, well, I've been reading and watching a lot about
how leaders lose their way thatI wouldn't recommend at this
point. Too much, too too much ofthat. I mean, then reading, I
just so appreciate PhilipYancey. Two of the most recent
books have been ones that hewrote and his, yeah, his
(47:04):
autobiography, fascinating,fascinating. And then he also
does this case study of 13people that impacted his faith.
That is just terrific as well.
So the recent writing of PhilipYancey, I've rediscovered and
really enjoyed that. That's whatI've been enjoying recently.
Joshua Johnson (47:22):
Great. Well, Peter, thank you for for diving
deep right away in thisconversation and going and
saying, What does it look liketo go upstream to know that we
could prevent some of thispersonal drift, this leadership
failing that we have seen aroundthe world at the moment, and
that we could say we could befaithful to God and our
(47:43):
leadership, our culture, ourvalues and where we're headed,
so that we don't actually havethis drift. And we thank you for
telling us that. Hey, mostpeople say that's never gonna
happen to me, we don't realizeit, but hey, there is something
that we could do about it, andthere are some practical steps
that we could take so that thisdoesn't happen to us, and say
(48:04):
none of us are immune, and thatwe all have to put these things
into practice. So thank you,Peter, it was fantastic
conversation.
Peter Greer (48:10):
Great to be with you. Thanks so much.
Unknown (48:22):
You.
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