Ep. 350 Kaitlin Curtice - Everything is a Story - Shifting Culture

Episode Transcript
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Kaitlin Curtice (00:00):
We don't just have to be gathering because we

(00:02):
we all have the same belief atthe end of the day, we could
actually have completelydifferent beliefs, but we can
hold that space with each otherand value and honor it and ask
what's next together. And thatis moving beyond just ourselves
and what we want into what do wewant to hold as a as a
collective? You announcer,

Joshua Johnson (00:33):
hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, today, I
sit down with author and poetCaitlin Curtis to talk about the
power of story, how it forms us,shapes our communities and
influences the world we'recreating together. Caitlin

(00:55):
reminds us that stories aren'tjust entertainment or background
noise. They are alive, guidingthe ways we understand who we
are and how we belong. In hernew book, everything is a story,
she invites us to see stories asboth linear and cyclical,
holding seasons of grief andlament but also renewal,
resilience and joy. We talkabout what it means to live in

(01:18):
liminal spaces, the gift ofindigenous wisdom and how
interfaith friendships andcommunity can open us to deeper
forms of belonging. We explorehow art and poetry can bring
healing, how paradox invites usinto a deeper way of living, and
how new stories can lead usbeyond fear and division toward
kinship wholeness and hope.
Together, we step into the workof honoring the stories we carry

(01:40):
and imagining the ones stillwaiting to be told. So join us.
Here is my conversation withCaitlin. Curtis, Caitlin,
welcome to shifting culture.
Thank you so much for joiningme. Thank you happy to be here.
I'm excited to dive into story.
Your new book, everything is astory talks about the importance
of telling ourselves stories,good stories, stories of joy and

(02:06):
hope and love and belonging andcommunity and things that can
actually help us connect withMother Earth and with each other
and everywhere in this world,instead of a lot of stories that
we tell ourselves, of stories ofpain and war and violence and
genocide and the things that arehappening in this world. So I
want to know, let's go back tothe micro level of story. Since

(02:30):
we are the stories we tell,yeah, as you were growing up,
what were the stories that youwere telling or you were being
fed and trying as you weretrying to make sense of the
world?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think an
important frame for it is sortof the religious stories I grew
up in, like I grew up in theSouthern Baptist Church. And I
think that those narratives werevery, very strong in me. I think
I write about this in my booknative, but I remember being
really little and having thismoment where I was, I was

(03:07):
looking out a window in myhouse, or the the trailer, I
guess, where we were living, andI was thinking, I was having
this dilemma, like, I know I'mreally a horrible sinner, and
I'm I'm A horrible human and Idon't deserve any love, you
know, that kind of but also,like, I'm a kid and, and I don't
think I've done that many badthings, and I think that God

(03:31):
could love me. And I was havingthis dilemma because I was, you
know, because I was being told,like, we're born with all of
these, you know, horrible,horrible taintedness on us, and
all these things that we do thatare so horrible that we have to
earn our love from God. And yet,I was also like, but I'm also
just a little kid who wants toknow and know love and give

(03:53):
love. And so what have I done?
So I had to go on this journeyof finding my sin, you know,
like constantly trying to figureout how bad I really was, and I
think that was a story that wasin my personal world a lot, and
stories of fear of the unknown,or fear of what's outside that
bubble, and but also thiscuriosity of wanting to feel

(04:17):
connected to people, so thatthat sort of story dilemma, and
then this dilemma of, I know I'mloved, I want to be loved, but
how do I earn love? And I thinkthat that was kind of in the
background of of my life a lot.
And then the way I did findhealing and sort of medicine and

(04:39):
care is through poetry andthrough words since I was
little. And so the also thestory that there are spaces
inside of ourselves where we canfind really beautiful healing
and kind of hold ourselves safein chaotic times when we're
young. And that's there too, ifwe can, if we can, access it.

How did you access it? What. What does that
look like? As you're saying,hey, there's some space in me,
even though I feel like there'ssomething different on the
outside. What did that looklike?

It was retreating to my journals. I
have my I have journals fromprobably, I'm looking at them
right now, from probably ageseven or eight until now. And
some of them are really just,you know, like stream of
consciousness, thoughts, many ofthem are prayers, and many of
them are songs or poetry thatI'd written and and so much of
it is like, I'm trying to graspand understand the world around

(05:32):
me and other people's pain thatthey're going through. And I'm
trying to, like, alchemize thatand make sense of it and write
it was so much about writing tofind healing somehow, and I
think that's because I waslonging for that. So it was very
much like close the door to mybedroom, go into this kind of
safety bubble where I wouldlisten to music, you know, my

(05:54):
favorite CDs that I had, or theradio, or watch my favorite TV
shows that were very comfortingto me and write in my journals
like those things gave mecomfort in that sort of bubble
of safety. So art, through somuch art,

art is healing, and it could really change the
world and help people. Yeah,what the world looks like. So as
you grew up and you started toreckon with other parts of
yourself. That wasn't just thereligious upbringing that you
had, but it was other aspects ofwho you are. How did you start
to make sense of the otheraspects of you? And where did

(06:32):
you make room for a moreexpansive story than what you
were telling yourself?

I think that really probably started in my
probably like college age forme, I think that in my sort of
adolescent and teen years, mysafety was found in the church,
in assimilating to become verymuch like the the social
cultural norms, religious normaround me and so which became

(06:59):
my, my my safety bubble, youknow, but, but at the loss of
ignoring other parts of myselfor my story, like being
Potawatomi and and sort ofcelebrating or being, being
someone who loves to askquestions, like I had to do that
quietly, you know, like itwasn't allowed, and so trying to
hold on to those parts of myselfbut also Be in the roles that I

(07:21):
had, you know, and so I thinkthat in college, you know, I was
able to go somewhere that thatallowed me to expand into some
questions and have space forcommunity, where I could ask
those questions safely. And thatwas where I really started
exploring that. And then, youknow, I had my first child at 23

(07:42):
and so that was still young,that was still college age, but
I was like, having kids, andthat forced me to ask deeper
questions of my identity. Youknow, how did I grow up? And how
do I want them to grow up? Whatdo I want them to have that I
didn't have? And so that forcesyou to ask some big questions
about who you are. And soallowing me to dive deeper into

(08:05):
my own beliefs, my ownspirituality and also my own
identity, was really importantat that time.

You're asking those at a small level, with
your family, with who you are,your identity, you're asking the
question of, what story am Itelling, and who am I and I
think we do this at a macrolevel too. So we're looking at
like, who are we as a community?
Who are we as right now, we'rein America, so who are we as
American citizens, and what kindof country do we want? Who are

(08:32):
there's so many questions thatwe're asking, right and we're
telling different stories. Oneof the things you do to help us,
to help us navigate what kind ofstories we're telling. You talk
about the shape of stories andwhere they come from. Can you
just lay out what did you see asthe shape of stories and how
they start to form in thisworld?

I wanted to touch on this in a few different
ways in the book. So I talkabout cyclical and linear
stories, which are, you know,two very different ways of
understanding stories in theworld. Like cyclical
storytelling, of course, is verygrounded in, you know,
indigenous ways of experiencingthe world. A more kind of
Western approach is the linearstorytelling, and we experience

(09:19):
both in different ways. And soit's helpful for us to be able
to see that, you know, it. Wesee it in literal, you know,
fiction that we read. We seecharacters going through these
different lessons, either in asort of a linear way or a
cyclical way. And I often amtrying to help people kind of
break away from some of thelinear stuff to understand that

(09:41):
as people, we need cycles. Weneed seasons. We need to be
moving in that way. And then Ialso categorize stories as
liminal, loving and lethal. Sothat's also another way that
stories can take shape and howwe pay attention to them, is,
are we sharing stories of love?
Are we sharing stories. Storiesthat are lethal, that that harm,
and what stories are liminalwhere we're not quite sure what

(10:03):
to make of them, or we don'tknow the answer yet. You know,
that's a lot of stories, as wellas that gray space. And I think
it's good to honor that

since you, you write about liminality, your
your subsets the liminalityjournal you're you're really
looking at liminal spaces. Whatis that for you, and why is it
so this place of tension anddon't know really where we are?
Why is that so important for youto navigate and help us
discover?

Yeah, I think when I wrote my book native, I
really wanted it to be eventhough it was about my story is
about my journey of growing upSouthern Baptist, growing up in
Christianity, but also beingPotawatomi and and being in
America and sort of workingthrough my own stories and
identity and faith, I was hopingthat that book would also be a

(10:52):
safe place for other people whoare asking similar questions of
identity and spirituality andthat, how are we showing up
fully as we are in the world soliminality. You know, when I
stumbled across this term, itjust felt like home to me,
because I want to be able toexplore all the parts of who I
am with all of its questions andall of its concerns, and that

(11:16):
dance between the differentaspects of my life and where
things don't always make sense,and I think that that is very
true of us as humans like weit's okay that we ask questions
of who we are. It's okay that wedon't know who we are. Sometimes
it's okay that we are confusedand want to dive deeper into
things to understand. It's okaythat we might change our beliefs

(11:38):
about something. And I I wantpeople to feel like that's
allowed. And I think in in a lotof ways, we we act like
everything is much more sort ofdualistic, or cut and dry or
boxed up very neatly. A lot ofthings aren't, aren't as neat as
we hope they are

since 2020, probably a little bit before
that, it feels like, to me, likewe are going through an
unveiling of sorts, of seeingwhat's behind something, and a
lot of what's behind things iswe're just realizing that the
stories that we've been tellingourselves are coming from places
where we didn't expect thatThere was some a lot of harm

(12:22):
done, or there's, you know, somelethal stories that we've
inherited that we actuallydidn't know was there, but we
were being formed by thosestories. How do we start to
uncover where stories begin?
What does it look like to findthe beginnings of stories to
know what is actually we'rebeing shaped by, informed by

that's a great question. It makes me think
about, like, let's just look atAmerica from an indigenous
perspective. So for being, forme, being Potawatomi, in our
language, we have this wordchamokman, Kik, and that is our
word for America. So for theinstitution of America, not for
the land itself, you know, notfor our lands, but this, this

(13:06):
institution we've inherited. Andchamokman kik is loosely
translated to, like the Land ofthe Long butchering knives. And
so like that one word carries astory inside of it, of history
that that often isn't told. Youknow that, but, but to us, we're
seeing like, okay, the beginningof this nation as we know it,

(13:26):
was formed in violence and wasformed in the removal and the
pushing out of our people. Andthat is so powerful to me that
one word can speak that history,and so for us to hold on to that
and understand it, that would,you know, reshape the way we
view all of America's historyand and who we are as a young

(13:49):
nation, and how we're coming toknow ourselves, and what healing
might look like. So that's,that's an example that comes to
mind for me, as we can't ignorehistory, because history is
stories, and it's cycles ofstories that cycle in and out.
And so how can we, like, go backto something? And in the book, I
write about how stories arealive. So what, where do we find

(14:12):
the birth of a certain story,you know, who spoke it into
being, or how did it show up inthe world? And then how do we
trace the life of that story andsee how powerful it can become.

One of my big things that I want to do in my
life is I want to break cyclesof violence in every way and
actually then share new storiesthat we could live into a new
story that breaks cycles ofviolence and trauma and grief
and pain and loss and all ofthese things. How does stories
shape that? Is it possible thatthese cycles of stories can

(14:50):
actually be remade? Can we breakand get out of the cycle into
something new? Is healingpossible through story?

I think. So I think that we, like we mentioned
art earlier, like the theincredible power, power of
storytelling that shows up in anart like in in music, in
painting and poetry, I mean infilm, like the the ways that we
use art to influence the worldis incredible. And in the

(15:22):
darkest times when things feelthe worst, I just am reminded of
how powerful art is. Like whenwhen covid happened, and all of
these artists and musicians weregoing on to Instagram and just
singing from their homes, likejust to remind us that we're
connected, I found that to beincredibly moving. And the

(15:42):
morning that our currentpresident was elected, I wrote
four poems, because that waswhat, how I needed to alchemize
what was happening was to writepoetry. You know, I think that
we need to recognize the cyclesthat have been perpetuated, the
stories that we've been telling,and then we need to be able to

(16:03):
name those and ask, what couldbe next too. You know, I mean,
it's, it's one thing to kind oftry to stop those cycles, but
then what are we building next,and what does it look like? And
at the end of the book, The lastsection of the book, is about,
you know, oak trees, oncethey're fully grown, they drop
acorns again, and some of thoseacorns become new trees, and

(16:26):
some of them just becomecompost. And both things are
needed and necessary, and soit's important for us to ask
like, what stories are we goingto allow to become the dirt
again, to compost? And maybethose are some of those stories
of violence that we want tochange, and what stories do we
want to grow for futuregenerations? And I think

(16:47):
sometimes we can easily namethose. I think sometimes it's
harder to name those, but, butusually we're in the middle of
the transformation, like wewe're we're often in the middle
of it, you know, so it's, it'shard to see the beginning or end
when we're in that theliminality of it, and we're
living through the story,

if we're living through the story, and
liminality of the story thatwe're in, is there a way to zoom
back? So what does it look liketo zoom back? So we could see,
kind of see what's going on withthe story. I think when you're
in the middle of story, youcould cause more harm than
before if you don't actuallyreckon with the story that

(17:28):
you're living. So how do we howdo we see it? How do we know it?

This makes me think of this metaphor I often
use when I'm leading retreatsand stuff, and it's this, like
Band Aid metaphor. So I talkabout with, for example, like
Indian boarding schools. Theboarding school era is not
something we often talk about inthe United States. We haven't
really dealt with that realityand and so I've shared before.
You know, it's like we have thisas a nation. We have this, like,

(17:54):
gaping wound on our arm. Andinstead of like, looking at that
wound and trying to figure outhow it got there and what it's
doing, we just put a bunch ofbandages on it and hope it'll go
away. And we might mention thewound. We might talk about it a
little. We might, you know,acknowledge that it's there, but
we're going to just quick fix itand put some bandages on while

(18:14):
we don't recognize thatunderneath those bandages, this
wound is just festering and it'snot healing, and it's getting
worse and and if we were to takeall the bandages off and look at
this wound and name it and see,how did this get there? What
caused it to get there? Whathealing needs to be done, to
really take care of the woundfrom from the inside of what it

(18:37):
is, and then bandage it and letit do what it needs to do. How
might that be different? So as anation, how can we come to terms
with who we are and be honestand name that and ask what
healing might look like? That'skind of that to me. That's that
stepping back idea, and that'swhy I wanted to write the book.
Because stories grow from themicro to the macro. They start

(19:01):
small and they they becomesocieties. They become full
cultures of people. Is born froma story. So, so we need to,
like, give stories their theirhonor, because they are
powerful, you know? And so forus to step back and say, Okay,
here's here's the story, I'mgoing to follow its life cycle

(19:21):
and see where it takes me, eventhat is a really powerful
exercise. And I encourage peopleto do that, like pick a story
and follow the life of thatstory and see where it takes
you.

I think that's that's really important. Do you
have a poem that you can youcould read for us that can
actually help us dive into thistopic.

Yeah, let me.
Let me read this poem. I wrote apoem about st Bridget and Jesus,
and like sitting down to lunchwith them. I really love this
one because it it was reallymeaningful for me. And actually,
I writing poetry is a veryspiritual practice for me. And I
wrote this poem after returningfrom Northern Ireland. Island on
a trip, and it was a time for meto, you know, I'm trying to, I'm
in a liminal space of askingquestions about my own

(20:06):
spirituality always, because wealways are, but thinking about,
you know, Celtic spiritualityand Christianity, and the
colonial Christianity we'veinherited here in the United
States, and as an indigenouswoman, and how, how am I
understanding who I am and thethe context of who we are? And
so I was reading a lot about stBrigid, who is this very liminal

(20:28):
person, you know, and she's sowell respected. She's a Celtic
goddess and a Christian saint.
So she literally is someone wholives in liminal space, and
that's beautiful to me. So Iwrote this poem based on that.
I'd like to sit down to a longlunch with st Bridget of Ireland

(20:50):
and Jesus of Bethlehem and havea conversation about liminality.
I'd like to know about thatwater to wine situation and what
it means to rest, how it feelsto wander hillsides tending to
people's deepest needs. I'd loveto understand how to bring
people together at water wellsof healing when everyone says we
are better apart, I hope they'dask me how I can be quiet yet

(21:13):
full of fire, and what it meansfor each of us to have lived in
the time we lived in, what itmeans to show up liminally In a
world that doubts the power ofparadox. I'd like us all to tell
our favorite stories of MotherEarth and remember the cultures
we come from and the ones weconstantly return to, the ones
that hold us even when we forgetourselves. I'd like us to grieve

(21:37):
the things that aren't as theyshould be, colonialism and
genocide, oppression and hate,and right then and there, hold
each other's hands and promiseto never give up on the power of
kinship and belonging, then I'dlike us to finish our cups of
coffee, brush the dust from ourshoulders and vow to meet again
in the other world, the MilkyWay, in the highest heavens, so

(21:59):
we can look around together atevery moment when the people
found each other's sacredcenters and decided to get it
right.

The power of paradox is something you know
that you you mentioned there inyour poem that we've forgotten
the power of paradox. I think inAmerica, we've forgotten the
power of a paradox. One of thethings I appreciate for some
reason. As I'm talking to peoplein Britain for this podcast, we
talk about paradox a lot. Imean, paradox comes up a lot. It

(22:30):
doesn't come up a lot when I'mtalking to you Americans, and
we're living in a moment rightnow in America where it seems
like there isn't room for a bothand there isn't room for
paradox. There's only room forone story on one side and one
story on another side, andpeople can't hear each other

(22:52):
because they don't believe theother story. How do we reshape
paradox story within culturethat is so binary as it is at
the moment.

This is some that's, this is the question I'm
asking right now too, because itis. It's really frightening. I
live in a community of of peoplewho have very mixed political
beliefs, you know. So we're apurple area, you know. And I
think about this a lot in ourcommunity, like, what it means
that you know that the neighbornext door has a very different

(23:27):
political belief from you, butif you need to go to the ER,
they're the person that you'regonna have to call to take you.
And I think about things likethat, like, Where does our
kinship override our beliefsystems or our value systems?
And I'm not, I'm not saying thatit always does, and that's the
really difficult thing. Like, wecan't ignore the systems and
structures that we have put inplace, or our political system

(23:51):
and how we've created it to bethis way that that we have these
parties that are pitted againstone another. And I do think that
we were digging deeper anddeeper into this, this like
unwillingness to sort of enterinto any of the liminal space
with one another, and I thinkthat that causes more violence,

(24:11):
and it it certainly causes morepain. And so I don't know the
answer, and I feel like it's oneof these stories that we're
we're in the middle of it, and Idon't a lot of people are
writing about apocalyptic times,meaning it's an unveiling. It's
an unveiling, like we'reclearing the dust and seeing our
nation as it is, as it's alwaysbeen, like we're seeing the

(24:32):
truth of of what we've created,and it's kind of all coming to a
head now. And that's that's areally scary thing to think
about. But then I I rememberstorytellers and poets and
musicians who have been sort ofspeaking truth into those spaces
for a long time, who are likeseeing something that we're not

(24:52):
always seeing, you know, who arerecognizing patterns and things
that we don't always recognize.
And I. That those are the peopleI want to be paying attention
to, because they help me seebeyond the arguments. Do you
know, like we these, thesethings we're fighting over, are
very real. They are lethalstories. They are it's, it's a
lot of pain, and it's, it's thereality of violence, and yet,

(25:14):
can we see beyond it or aroundit, or through it in any way? Is
that possible? I think it ispossible, and I think there are
people who are doing that, butthey're not going to be the
popular ones.

Is there any indigenous wisdom or
storytelling aspects that youhave found that could help us
see, through or around what thisis I

mean, I think a lot about just what our
ancestors have gone through.
I've seen a number now ofindigenous people writing about
like we've been throughApocalypse before, you know,
like we've known, we've knowntimes like this for our people,
and we knew that things weregetting worse, and we held on to
our stories and who we are, andwe got through it, and we, you
know, we gave to futuregenerations. I think something

(26:00):
that I that I hold a lot, atleast for my lifetime, and I
talk about this with otherpeople, especially in retreat
settings, is like, imagine thisliminal space of your life,
where you exist. You have yourancestors who came before you,
and you have those futuregenerations that are going to
inherit what you give them. Soour lifetime, right now, in all
the ways that we interact witheveryone around us, with

(26:24):
ourselves, with Mother Earth,like we are, we're creating
ripple effects that that bleedout to our ancestors who came
before us and to the futuregenerations who are coming after
us. And that's that's a teachingI constantly keep in the lens of
my own heart and work and mind,because it it hold, it keeps me
held like in the reality of myown life, kind of keeps me

(26:47):
accountable in a way that I'mthe work I do is for my
ancestors and for futuregenerations, and I think that
wisdom could help us. It's likecoming to terms with who we are,
but dreaming of who we could beand who we want, you know what
we want to pass on.

So can you just contrast Indigenous storytelling
to storytelling of like whiteEuropean settler storytelling,
like seeing a different way ofstory can help?

Yeah, I mean, I I'll go back to the linear
encyclical, because I think thisis really, this is something I I
share a lot with people like,I'll talk about my my work day
and my work, my work life. Youknow, I'm, I'm an author and a
public speaker, so I have tosort of create my own rhythm of
my day and and so I have to bevery conscious of working

(27:41):
through sort of the the hustleculture and very consumerist
extractive culture that ispublishing and is social media.
And as creators, we're alwaystrying to find new, clever ways
to be seen. And it's it can bereally exhausting and really
difficult to keep up with. Andso that's kind of the like, if

(28:02):
you do this, right, you'll getthis. Like, if you, if you work
hard enough, this is the resultyou'll get. That's a very
Western colonial way that we'veinherited those messages. And
then I can think about, youknow, what if? What if my work
life followed the seasons? Andwhat if, every few months I stop
and I examine how my days aregoing, and I ask questions of

(28:24):
who I am and how this isworking. What if every season, I
reevaluate and I set differentgoals, and they are goals that
are realistic for me, and Iallow those to play out in my
life, and that has helped metremendously, and I talk about
this, especially with othercreatives, allowing them to be
human, because we we cannot pushand push and push constantly.

(28:47):
It's not sustainable for us, andit's not realistic, but we have
inherited those stories that wewe need to show how hard we're
working, and we need to makethat very visible, you know, and
we need to ignore our bodiestelling us when we need rest and
we need to just work harder andpush harder. And I, I was doing

(29:09):
that, and I got shingles a fewweeks ago because my body was
telling me, this is too much.
This is too much for us. But Iwas like, I've got to launch
this book, you know. So I'mlike, living this story right
now, all over again, even thoughI already knew the lesson, I
have had to relearn the lesson.
And that is, that's the cyclicalstory, like, that's the way that

(29:29):
I'm having to return to myselfover and over as someone who's
been an author for decade, youknow, but I'm, I'm still
learning this lesson, and it'snot about the linear all the
time. It's not about, you know,what we can earn and what we can
get if we work hard enough, youalso have to surrender.

I think that the progress of the modern machine
in our modern age that we livein is that we're going to get,
get more as more money, morepower. Or we're going to
actually be able to live in abox where we could control our
environment, we could haveelectricity. And so that means

(30:08):
work never stops, right? Youcould do work at one at 1am if
you're like, Okay, I need to getsome more work done. You don't
even go back to the cycles ofthe sun and night. And, you
know, we're not even goingthrough the day cycle anymore.
We're just in this, like, thiscontrolled box where I could

(30:29):
just, we don't know what's upanymore. Yeah, so how do we
ground ourselves with with therhythms of Earth, and how can we
actually tell a story that we'reactually connected more with the
earth than we are in this, thisWestern, modern world we live

(30:49):
in. We're not connected withearth

anymore. Yeah, I mean, it's more there. There
are more ways to do it than werealize. Like you can step out
in the morning and and greet thesun. And that's a really that's
a really helpful thing to do fora number of reasons, for health,
for mental health, for spiritualhealth, to start the day with
gratitude and like, welcominggrandfather sun as he's rising

(31:13):
is really special. So just tostep outside and let your body
get some vitamin D is reallygood. But even just like read,
read books based around nature,like read nature essays, read
poetry that reflects somethingof the earth. If you can't go on
walks in nature, if that's notavailable to you or possible,

(31:34):
read and listen to to people whotalk about the earth you know.
Read, read books that exploreeven if it's like science of the
earth. You know, watch naturedocumentary, because we do have
to reframe our story with MotherEarth. And I often have people
do journaling practices wherethey write love letters to
Mother Earth, because thatreframes the way we think about

(31:57):
the Earth as a commodity, and itbecomes like a relationship with
another person or a being. Andso if we begin to write letters
to this person, well thenobviously they have to be real
if we're writing them notes andspeaking to them. And so how
might that begin to change theway we understand even climate
work, or the ways that we'reinteracting with the earth in

(32:20):
each other, so it's possible.
And read indigenous people'swork, listen to indigenous
music. You know, I mean, we'vebeen grounded in the ways of the
earth for a long time. So learnabout the seasons through our
lens, if that's helpful. Butthere is so much out there, and
I'm grateful for that right now,because I think a lot of people
are hungry for it. I think somany people are hungry to live

(32:42):
in a more cyclical, seasonal,connected way. And so if we can
even just start small, you know,we don't have to overhaul
everything right away. That'soverwhelming, like, start with
one book. Start with 10 minutesa day outside, standing in the
sunlight, just meditating. Seewhat that brings up, you know,
and allow that to be a startingpoint.

One of the the places in your book that you you
talk through is about mergingstories with others. What does
the the merging of stories looklike with other people, maybe
interfaith stories and storiesof the rest of humanity that is
not just our story.

What is that?
One thing that I have deeplyvalued from social media is some
of the colleagues and friendsthat I've made in so many
different circles, and that hasbeen huge gift to you know, when
you find someone online and youreally connect with what they're
saying or what they're sharing,and so you send them a message,
or you send them an email, andand then it sparks this

(33:43):
connection and friendship likethat's that's such a gift that
social media has and does giveus. There are beautiful people
out in the world who are doingreally good work, and we can
find each other. And so that hasbeen my experience with so many
different writers and otherauthors and and my interfaith
work as well, that is somethingthat is so beautiful that our

(34:05):
stories don't have to be thesame. They they shouldn't have
to be the same. But when we,when we come together for the
sake of listening and learningfrom one another and doing that
as like a committed, slow work,that we're not we're not
listening to each other'sstories and entering into those
relationships so that we can,like, fix something right away,
but we're coming into it so thatwe can learn and have that

(34:29):
exploration of one another'sexperiences that is really
powerful and is a much moresustainable way to engage with
one another. And I think thatthat is where kinship is sort of
born, and so many of myinterfaith relationships. The
forward of the book was writtenby my friend Simran Jeet Singh,
and he has been one of myclosest friends in the

(34:52):
interfaith world for a whilenow, and I'm so grateful for him
and for him to write the forwardfor the book like is one of
those. Moments where he's namingour friendship and and and sort
of sharing how he's grateful formy work, and now I'm so grateful
for his work. So we can merge inso many ways that are
unexpected. And I invite us tobe surprised by the ways that

(35:15):
people show up to each other,because I think that if we hold
that expansive vision, we mightfind people in places we never
thought we would. That's a

beautiful example. As you're looking at at
your different spaces that youactually live in. Have you seen
a an example of of a communityor somewhere that has been
telling different stories, thatthey come together. They've
listened to one another, theytake space to listen to one

(35:48):
another, stories, merge thosestories and start to find
healing in community. Yeah.

I mean, I've seen, I've seen this in a lot of
ways. Actually, I did some workwith, yeah, I did. I did this,
and I write about in the book, Idid this project with the Aspen
Institute and the Baha'i ofAmerica. And we, we, a number of
us, came together and wrote apublication, sort of dreaming up
the future of America as itcould be. How could it be

(36:17):
different? What are our dreamsfor it? And of course, I wrote a
poem and shared a poem in thispublication, and different
people wrote essays based onwhere they're coming from and
their backgrounds. And then weall got together in DC, I guess
it's been two summers ago tocelebrate this book, and it was
so beautiful to be in a roomwith other people of all sorts

(36:37):
of backgrounds and beliefs, andwe were just like coming
together to name, name thingsyou know, to name here's where
something hurts or here's wheresomething is broken. How can we
come together and dream of a newway forward? And that was such a
gift, and I I'm so grateful tohave had the opportunity to be

(36:58):
part of it, because it's createdreally great friendships, and
reminds me that, you know, beinga writer can be very solitary
work. You know, we're we're justsitting in our space, we're
writing, and we're hoping thatwhat we're writing is going to
make sense on the other side,and that, you know, that we're
giving enough to the reader. Andas lonely as it is, it also, for

(37:19):
me, is such a communal practice,because I think of the people
who inform me and shape me, andthose people you know have
become part of my community as Iwrite. And so, yeah, that was a
really beautiful experience.

What happens when, when we're we're we're
giving stories, and our storiesare either not received or we're
not getting stories back. And Ithink that's that happens a lot,
is we feel very lonely in ourstory, that our story isn't
heard. What happens when storiesare not actually held and heard?

I think, I think that you're right. That
does happen a lot, and itcreates a lot of pain, you know,
and I think that's where a lotof I think that's at the root of
so much loneliness in the world.
And I think it's interestingtoo, because social media can be
such a powerful form ofstorytelling, but it can also
make it really hard to share ourtrue story, you know, like we

(38:17):
want to share a story that iseasily taken in by others,
easily digested, you know, andso we kind of might make it more
palatable to the reader onsocial media or to ever
scrolling by instead of sharing,kind of the nuance or the
complexity or the liminality ofthe story, like these are the
things I'm struggling with. Anddoes anyone seen me and that

(38:39):
that is really hard. And I dothink that in so much of sort of
the othering and rejectionthat's happened, I think that
those people have found eachother and are beginning to form
their own circles within thatothering. You know, like I have
friends who run, my friendGareth Higgins, runs, you know,
so many storytelling events andand he's bringing people

(39:01):
together based around the powerof story. And many of those
people are might be the peoplewho have felt othered or have
felt, you know, like they theyhaven't found a place for their
story. So sometimes people justneed to know your story might
not be palatable to certainpeople, but it's safe here, or
it's safe in this context, andyou can share it, and you don't

(39:22):
have to be afraid. And that'swhere we have built really
powerful communities of peoplewho are coming together because
they didn't fit the boxes. Andthat's that's such a beautiful
thing, but it takes time to findeach other sometimes, and that's
hard.

I've seen some people like, Hey, here's a story
of harm. Me and my community,we've been harmed. And they
ended up they build a storyplatform of being against one
thing, and they never move intoa place of, how do we actually
have reconciliation healing onthe other. Side and tell a

(40:00):
better story. What's the move toa better story? What's the move
to healing and not just stayingin what we're against?

Right? That reminds me of so many of our
like Deacon, you know, Faithdeconstruction, spaces that we
want to deconstruct and we wantto step out of the harm that,
you know, the harmfulinstitutions or communities
we've been a part of. But if westay in that, against against
against, it's really hard to askwhat we're building on the other

(40:28):
side of it. So, and that's verytrue. Like it it's it's easier
to stay in that than totransition to the next phase of
what are we going to build then?
And and I am, I really valuepeople who have, you know, are
moving from that space intoOkay, well, then what is next
and what is possible? It's it'sreally important for us to be

(40:49):
able to hold our our rage. Youknow, as someone who grew up not
allowed to be angry, you know,that was like a really bad,
sinful emotion. It's reallyempowering to be able to be
angry about especially aboutinjustice. But we can't stay
there because it'll burn us upalive, you know, because it's

(41:11):
not sustainable. And so thedance between having that fury
and rage and then alchemizing itinto something is really
important. And again, I thinkthat's where art happens. It's
when we alchemize, you know, ateam of dancers take something
really horrible that's happened,and they work through it, and
they alchemize some beautifulnew dance routine into something

(41:33):
that's healing for the audience.
Or someone writes a book fromtheir trauma and pain, you know,
and it's harder to do that ingroups. When you've created an
organization, or you're, youknow, it's like when it's when
it's a bigger level, and you'revery much trying to position
yourself in a certain way, thatcan be difficult, but at some
point it'll sort of break, andyou have to ask yourself, what's

(41:56):
next? What's next? And that'salways like, what's next is,
what story are we going tochoose to tell on the other side
of this? Because something,something's going to have to be
told there

in that position. I think moving into a
new story, one of the thingsthat moves us from stories that
are just about me and my peopleinto stories that are about
others as well. Yeah, how do wemove our focus, our gaze, from
just stories about me and what Iget from this world into stories

(42:29):
for other people?

Yeah, I write about in living resistance, even
about how our, you know, ourroutines of self care and self
love aren't meant to just stayinside of us that they they
should overflow somewhere. And Ithink that that is, that's even
a reframing of what self careis, that it's not just, you
know, only for us, it is for us,but it informs how we show up in

(42:55):
the world. So if I'm trulytaking care of myself, if I have
learned to love myself, well,then I might see someone else
who's struggling to lovethemselves well, and I might say
I see something in you thatyou're struggling with. I want,
I want to share this with you. Iwant to be on this journey with
you, and it's for them, butyou're using the tools that
you've had for yourself inunderstanding that, and that's

(43:18):
like a that's a reallybeautiful, connected way to show
up with others. And the hardthing is, when we don't see
anything in common with someone,that there is this, well, how do
I practice belonging with themwhen they're so different from
me? And that's even a story, Ithink that we have to reframe
that, that we don't have to be alike to care for each other, and

(43:43):
kinship is so much deeper thanwe have the same interests. So
we're kin. You know, we belongto each other because we like
the same political party or welike the same music. How do we
actually belong to one another?
Because at the end of the day,we have to see something in one
another. See and that's wherewe're we are lacking that like

(44:05):
we aren't seeing the value inone another. We're not seeing
the value in certain people, butother people have earned our
value, and that's a reallyproblematic way to see see each
other. So we have to step out ofourselves and be willing to kind
of enter into the stories ofothers. And that's interfaith

(44:25):
work is like that too. We talkabout like we don't just have to
be gathering because we we allhave the same belief at the end
of the day, we could actuallyhave completely different
beliefs, but we can hold thatspace with each other and value
and honor it and ask what's nexttogether, and that is moving
beyond just ourselves and whatwe want into, what do we want to
hold as a as a collective?

Is there a way to do that with people that we
believe are inflicting harm? Andso we like if there's room for
everyone, there should be. Roomfor everyone I know belonging.
And that's, I mean, that'sprobably one of the hardest
things to do, is okay, they'reinflicting harm. How do I make
room for for them? What does itlook like to show up and tell a

(45:12):
story with them? Is it possible?

Yeah, I am.
Sometimes I'm not sure. So maybeI'm not. I don't know how to
answer it. I because you can,like, right away, we can think
of very specific examples of,like, how would this ever work,
you know, or, like, another partof my liminality is like, I, I
mean, I've lived in very I'velived in communities where my

(45:35):
beliefs have changed very muchfrom what I grew up with, and
what allowed me to change wasexposure, exposure to other
beliefs and peoples and culturesand values and that. But now
it's interesting coming to who Iam. Now I'm not necessarily
demonizing the people who arelike the people I grew up with.

(45:55):
Do I agree with them? Do I seeharm? Yes, but, but I also grew
up in it. So I I know what itwas like to be in those spaces.
I know what it felt like to notwant to ask questions and to not
want to step over certain lines,and that it was a very fearful,
scary place. So I have thisstrange empathy for those bases,

(46:16):
because I lived in them when Iwas young, and now I'm outside
of them. And that doesn't meanthat I could enter in and just
be great. You know, I havedreams where I, like, probably a
few times a year I'll have adream where I go back to my,
like, childhood church, like asI am now I show up and it's
never good, you know, it'salways, like, very awkward and
very fee. I feel it in my bodyas I'm dreaming like this is

(46:39):
really hard, so that's probablymeans that's a dilemma I'm
working through. Still, it'shard. I have a lot of respect
for organizations and people whoare trying to walk that line and
like, bring bring differentpeople together for
conversations. And all I can sayis that stories are so powerful
because they helped change us,and the exposure to different

(47:02):
stories helps change us, likethe exposure to different
stories I had in college helpedchange me. One of my best
friends was an atheist, and so Iloved her and I and I loved who
she was, and I wanted tounderstand who she was so we
were, we took care of each otherbecause, almost because we were
so different, we wanted thatlike that mattered, because we

(47:24):
wanted to know and love eachother well, and if there's a
foundation of that at all, thenwe can walk through that with
other people. There often isn'tthat foundation. That's the
problem. That's a story we needto tell differently. But, but
stories are powerful becausethey bring people together in
ways you might not imagine.

What hope do you have for everything as a story?
I hope

that it gives people just the freedom to look
at stories differently, like Idid not want it to be a book
about here's the right story andhere's the wrong story and
here's how we're going to fixthings. Because I don't know how
we're going to fix things,necessarily, but I know that
storytelling is powerful to helpus fix things, and so I wanted
it to be a book where we canjust step back and see, okay,

(48:11):
stories are everywhere, and theyare incredibly powerful. How do
we hold space and respect them?
And like, choose to be a part ofwhat they're telling and choose,
like actively choose to tellbetter stories. And I hope that
something in my book, any smallthing, can encourage people to
do that.

Beautiful. A couple of quick questions I have
at the end for you. One Caitlin,if you go back to your 21 year
old self, what advice would yougive?

Oh my gosh, that's a loaded question at the
end. Oh, my goodness. It wouldjust be like to to really learn
to feel and understand how lovedshe is, that that love that she
tries to give to other people isalso there for her if she needs
it, when she needs it, that's

beautiful.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately, you could
recommend

I'm reading. Oh shoot, I always have to see the
books I'm reading because I'llforget. I'm reading care of the
soul, care of the soul, byThomas More, and I'm always
reading something by JohnO'Donoghue. He is. He's an Irish
storyteller and poet and writerand theologian, and he's just
everything that I read from himis so full and deep and and

(49:26):
helps me do this, the steppingback to look at things from a
bigger lens, which is reallyimportant for me as a writer, to
be able to have people who helpme do that.

You're the second person this week that has
talked about John O'Donoghue.
How can people go get everythingas a story. Is there anywhere
you'd like to point people to toget that? And then, is there
anywhere you'd like to pointpeople to you, to connect with
you, and what you're doing?

Yeah, I'm bookshop.org. Is awesome, just
because it connects you to yourlocal bookstore. So that would
be great. And then you know thebest place to connect with me,
the community I love. So much ismy sub stack, the liminality
journal. I'm doing a lot oflike, behind the scenes and
sharing about writing the book,and we're doing a guided read
along as well. But it's justbeen, it's just such a great

(50:11):
community of people who areasking really deep, beautiful
questions. So that's like, ifyou want to hang out with me
online, that's the best place togo. Excellent.

Well, go get everything as a story. It's a
fantastic book. I love it. I'mgoing to go back to it and read
it a couple more times, andjust, I want to sit with it even
more than I have so far. So it'sreally well worth getting. It's
also worth getting all ofCaitlin's other works. Caitlin,

(50:41):
I'd love for you to Yeah, justclose us out here with with a
poem.

This is just one of those poems that's about
looking for God. At some pointin our lives, we declare that we
are going to find God, going toexplore the world and demand an
explanation for all that hasgone wrong and all that we
desperately hope to change alongthe way. How does one find God?
Exactly? Where do we look?
Because at the end of the day,what makes one place holy and

(51:06):
another place secular? Whatmakes one person saintly and
another one heathen? Perhaps, atthe end of the journey, we find
only mirrors, mirrors on walls,in the eyes of other humans, in
the presence of every livingcreature in the touch of a
tree's rough bark or the swellof an Ocean's wave. Quite
suddenly, we are aware of ourown beloved smallness. And quite

(51:29):
suddenly, we realize that wewere never meant to find God,
whatever God is. We were meantto acknowledge that we were
always, always the mirrorourselves, hands over our
hearts, looking into the sacredand understanding that the
sacred is looking right back

beautiful well.
Caitlin, thank you for thisbeautiful conversation, and
thank you for your work and whatyou do and holding the
liminality of life for all ofus, so that we could enter into
space, that we could find thesacred, we could find community
and belonging and love and thestories that we Tell. And so it

(52:11):
was beautiful. Thank you.

Unknown (52:16):
Thank you. You.

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Ep. 350 Kaitlin Curtice - Everything is a Story

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 350 Kaitlin Curtice - Everything is a Story