October 17, 2025 • 60 mins
Phil Sokell-Miles has spent nearly two decades helping students encounter God in the most ordinary of places - schools. As part of the 24-7 Prayer movement, he helped pioneer Prayer Spaces in Schools, a global initiative inviting children and young people of all faiths and none to explore prayer, reflection, and life’s big questions in safe and creative ways. In this episode, we talk about how the movement began, why creativity can open us to the Spirit in ways words sometimes can’t, and what it means to serve schools as places of blessing rather than mission projects. We explore how prayer becomes a way of belonging, how the Holy Spirit meets us in quiet spaces, and how creating room for presence can transform lives. A conversation about childlike faith, holy imagination, and the God who meets us right where we are.
Phil Sokell-Miles (formerly Togwell) lives in the North of England with his family (wife, daughters, foster-mums/babies, lodgers and dogs). Phil trained and worked in all sorts of Youth & Community settings before joined the 24-7 Prayer movement as it’s first UK National Director. He now leads 24-7’s Prayer Spaces in Schools initiative, and he recently published 'Sticky Note Prayers', which tells the story of Prayer Spaces in Schools. Phil runs (a lot), and he still plays Pokemon Go.
Phil's Book:
Phil's Recommendations:
Praying Like Monks, Living Like Fools
Subscribe to Our Substack: Shifting Culture
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@shiftingculturepodcast.com
Go to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.
Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Bluesky or YouTube
Consider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below
Contact me to advertise: jjohnson@shiftingculturepodcast.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Phil Sokell-Miles (00:00):
He's trying to articulate an experience, an
(00:03):
encounter. It made me feelwhole. Surely, that's what
prayer is about in more than allof the other stuff that we do
when we pray. Surely it's aboutbeing remembered, reconnected,
reconciled, brought back intowholeness. You.
Joshua Johnson (00:33):
Paul, hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, Phil Sol
miles, believes that prayer canopen doors we didn't know
existed for nearly 20 years.
He's helped create those doors,spaces and schools where
children and young people canpause, reflect and encounter
(00:54):
something sacred. What began asa simple experiment within the
24/7 prayer movement has becomea global story of creativity,
presence and transformation. Inthis episode, Phil shares how
prayer spaces in schools grewfrom a handful of classrooms in
the UK into a movement spanningdozens of countries. We talk
(01:15):
about what happens when we tradecontrol for curiosity, when we
stop talking at people and startcreating space for them to meet
God for themselves, he remindsus that prayer isn't a formula
or a project. It's an invitationto belonging, to being known, to
being made whole. This is aconversation about the Spirit's
(01:35):
quiet work in unexpected places,and how simple acts of
hospitality can open hearts tothe love of God. So join us and
discover what God is doing inprayer spaces and schools. Here
is my conversation with Phil.
Sokol miles, Phil, welcome toshifting culture. So excited to
(01:55):
have you on thanks for joiningme.
Phil Sokell-Miles (01:57):
It's wonderful to be here. Joshua,
thanks for inviting me. Excited
Joshua Johnson (02:01):
to dive into sticky note prayers, her new
book about prayer spaces forschools. This, this 24/7 prayer
movement that has actually gonearound the world, and we see
these prayer spaces in schools,that young children in schools
are able to go into these spacesand pray and actually connect
(02:22):
with God, which is an incrediblething, incredible movement. How
did it start? Like, where wasyour What was your origin story
into these prayer spaces forschools?
Phil Sokell-Miles (02:32):
Yeah, it's a great question. I've been I got
caught up with the 24/7 prayermovement right at the start. For
those who are aware of 24/7prayer will be aware that it's
it all feels accidental. It allfeels like it kind of happened
to us rather than happenedbecause of us. I was working as
24 sevens, first nationaldirector in 2004 2005 and one of
(02:57):
the best things about that rolewas the emails, the phone
conversations with churches whowere running 24/7 prayer rooms.
And, you know, people wereexperiencing the presence of God
in their churches. Surprise,surprise, you know, and lots of
incredible things werehappening. And one of the fun
things were was that theseprayer rooms seemed to be
(03:20):
escaping from churches andpopping up in other places,
like, you know, the party islandof Ibiza, magic mushroom
festival in Mexico, in theBritish Houses of Parliament.
You know, in some third spaces,missional spaces, these prayer
rooms were popping up, but noneof us expected them to pop up in
(03:41):
schools. And that's exactly whathappened in the 2007 2008
academic year, we heard fourstories from around England,
unknown to one another. I thinkit was GK Chesterton that said
that coincidences are God'sspiritual puns, which I quite
like we had this coincidence offour people, people who'd had
(04:07):
experience of 24/7 prayer roomin their church, who then took
the principles, the ideas, thekind of values, into schools.
And so this was a mix of highschools and what we call primary
schools, kindergarten, churchschools and public schools. And
(04:27):
so I was fascinated. I trainedas a youth and community worker.
I, you know, young people is inmy blood. And so when I heard
these stories, I was like, Iwant to find out more about
this. And so we invited thepeople who'd organized it to
come to London. You know, wepaid their train fare. We just
want to talk. And we spent thisday Joshua. I just, I vividly
(04:48):
remember it. We spent this dayasking questions, scrutinizing,
what did you do? What happened?
What did the children say? Whatdid the young people say?
Especially those that weren'tChristians. What did, what did
the staff say? How did you getpermission in the first place?
You know, all of this stuff,what was in the room, you know?
And the only way I can describeit is it just felt holy, you
(05:11):
know, I I had a shiver down myspine for most of the day, which
I have right now as I'm tellingyou this story. It's, it's, it's
like my early warning system.
It's like, this is Holy Spirit.
Shiver, shiver. You know, Phil,pay attention. I know you're
rubbish at listening. Payattention. You know? It felt
holy. It felt like, it felt likewe were being invited by the
(05:34):
Holy Spirit to stewardsomething. It was like, I've
started something, don't mess itup, you know, do good with it,
because this could be reallyexciting. And the critical
question that day was, is thisreproducible? You know, because
sometimes remarkable thingshappen in a certain place,
(05:55):
because, you know, it's amoment, it's a particular
person, and it's notreproducible and and we have to
accept that, but for somereason, it just felt like this
was a first fruit, a seed thathad been sown, and we were being
invited to steward it.
Joshua Johnson (06:13):
So the stewarding, what did it seem
like to you that made itreproducible instead of just a
moment?
Phil Sokell-Miles (06:22):
Yeah, I think so. One of the unique
opportunities in here in inGreat Britain is that we have an
education system that requiresschools to offer spiritual
learning. Anyone listening toyour podcast, who's who's a
teacher from the UK willunderstand this acronym, SMSC.
(06:42):
It stands for spiritual, moral,social and cultural learning.
And all schools, whether they'rechurch schools or public
schools, are expected to deliverSMSC. And that's one of the
things that the governmentchecks in you. You cannot be an
outstanding school unless youdeliver on this stuff. And even
amongst those first four, thatwas one of the bits of feedback
(07:05):
that teachers had given to thoseorganizing the prayer spaces.
And so immediately we realizedthis isn't like an added thing.
The schools are recognizing thatthis is helping them to deliver
something that they're expectedto deliver. You know, so it
already felt like this isintegral and and to be honest
(07:28):
with you, that that's becomeembedded in how we view prayer
spaces in schools. We we want tofind ways for this to be a
blessing to schools, to serveschools, and that's our our
appeal. When we do training withchurches, we said to them, don't
kind of kind of barge your wayin to try and add something.
(07:49):
Find a way to be a blessing.
Find a way to serve. And soyeah, that. I think that was our
key bit of learning here. Andyou know, surely that's the way
of the kingdom, isn't it to getto go and do good, to go and
rather than viewing schools as akind of mission or fishing
expedition, you know, let's,let's try and do things out
(08:10):
there in the community so thatwe can hook children and young
people and anyone else that wecan drag back into our church,
structures, products, projects.
How about we go and be ablessing? I think it was, oh
Keith green in his book nocompromise, where he said, Jesus
(08:31):
says, Go and make disciples. Hesays, Nothing about coming back.
And I love that, you know, andthat that felt embedded right at
the start. Let's go and be ablessing to school communities
without any intention of comingback. Let's go and do goodness,
do kindness, do generosity, dohope, do forgiveness, do
(08:52):
creating spaces to make iteasier for children and young
people to communicate with God.
Let's go and do it there and bea blessing there. And it seemed
like the doors were open. Now,obviously that's different. In
other nations, education systemsare different. So one of the
first questions that that weenter into with people in other
nations is, what's youreducation system like? What are
(09:14):
the doorways to serve, to go andbe a blessing? What's the
culture like, what are theneeds, what are the ways that we
can add value to schoolcommunities and go and seek
first, the Kingdom amongst theseschool communities? Frankly,
Joshua, when I started, when wefirst started doing this, I
(09:34):
thought, There's no way this isgoing to work anywhere else in
the world, because we have areally unique front door
opportunity. Now, 17 years on,we've had prayer spaces in 37
different countries, includingthe US, including in a public
school in the US, and what wefound is that Holy Spirit is
opening doors that no one canshut in remarkable ways. It
(09:57):
looks. Interestingly, the doorsare different, but the models
the same. So the same prayeractivities, the same rough
structure. It's just thelanguage that we need to learn.
We need to learn the language ofour culture and our communities,
but the message is the same.
Joshua Johnson (10:16):
So what is the message? Then, if you're like
training people to start prayerspaces for schools. What are
these prayer activities? Whatdoes it look like to have a
prayer space?
Phil Sokell-Miles (10:26):
Yeah, so typically, prayer spaces are
temporary. They run for a day, afew days, up to a week. There
are some schools, some settingswhere they've become permanent,
but that's not really the modelthat we would recommend starting
with, start with somethingtemporary. It involves using a
space could be indoors, could beoutdoors. The climate here in
(10:48):
the UK isn't brilliant foroutdoors, but you know, they're
occasionally prayer spaces intent with the new bows outside.
So temporary a physical spacethat's set aside and filled with
a series of interactive,creative activities, really
simple activities that invitepupils, students, teachers,
(11:11):
parents, all sorts of janitorswith everyone seems to get
involved, to reflect And orpray, and that's important. So
I've got our mission statementwritten down here, which is
prayer spaces enable childrenand young people of all faiths
and none. That's really, reallyimportant to us to explore
(11:34):
spirituality, prayer and life'sbig questions in a safe and a
creative and an interactive way.
So prayer spaces, they're not,they're not prayer rooms for
Christians. That's that's notwhat we're trying to do here.
There's, of course, there's aplace for that. I want to
encourage every Christian topray more and find, find ways,
as Paul says, Pray in in everypossible way, in every possible
(11:57):
occasion. But that's not themodel that that we've that we've
developed prayer spaces, andthey're not always called prayer
spaces. In in Vienna, they getcalled Soul spaces. In Salzburg,
in Austria, they get calledalive in Milwaukee, it's called
a quiet space. You know thatthere are different names for
these things, but the content isthe same. It will be a series of
(12:18):
maybe eight to 10 stations, youmight we might call them
activities for children andyoung people to express
something of what's going oninside them. So it could be an
activity about letting go ofworries or asking big questions.
That's my personal favorite one.
(12:41):
You know, the instructions nextto this activity will be whether
you believe in a God or not, ifGod was sitting in a chair at
this table, what's the one bigquestion you'd like to ask? And
there will be some torn up bitsof cardboard and maybe some
string hanging from the ceiling,and some pegs. And so the kids
would write their big questionsand peg it onto the string, you
(13:03):
know. And some of the questionswill be really funny, you know.
Some of them are, you know,their head questions. They're
like, I don't understand howGod, how can you listen to
everyone's prayers all at once?
Does everyone go to heaven? Youknow, do? Do all religions mean
the same thing. Some of them arekind of theory, theology, head
questions. Most of them areheart questions. Most of them
(13:25):
are God. Why has my granddad gotcancer? You know, why are my
parents fighting? Why don't theylove me? Why am I always alone?
You know, in fact, one of themost honest question type
prayers I ever read was on alittle I vividly remember it on
a green piece of paper. Thischild had written me on the
(13:46):
outside and had drawn a smileyface, a smiley emoji, me on the
inside, drawn this sad face,this sad emoji. You know, what
we found is that the childrenand young people, the stuff
that's going on in their livesis really, really close to the
surface. You know, you look atchildren and young people, and
(14:06):
you think they've got it alltogether, or they're hardened,
or they're resistant. Ourexperience of 17 years of
running hundreds and hundredsand hundreds of prayer spaces in
all kinds of settings is thatchildren and young people are
roughly the same. They're allbroken on the inside, and
they're all desperate for a safespace where they can express
process of stuff in their lives,and for many of them to try
(14:31):
praying if they're if they feelcoerced or pushed or required or
there are some rules to thisprayer, then they will steer
clear. But if they feel invitedto express the stuff on the
inside of them in a way thatmeans something to them, and
there are loads of stories Icould tell if we have time, then
(14:53):
our experience is that they'reitching to get. Started. It's
not an exaggeration. Joshua, Icould still count on the fingers
of one hand the number ofchildren and young people I've
seen refuse to participate in aprayer space in 17 years. What
Joshua Johnson (15:13):
do you think it is that the invitation and
creativity of these prayerspaces? What do you think that
does to kids, as opposed to,like, coercion and rules, and we
have to get this? Oh,
Phil Sokell-Miles (15:28):
wow. How much time have we got? You know? I
just, you know, I sometimeswonder if, if Jesus did wander
into some of our churchmeetings, whether he he'd be
looking around, scratching hishead, going, what? What are you
doing? What? What is this? Whyis it so difficult for for
people to be themselves? Here inMark 10, we read that story of
(15:51):
Jesus getting indignant with thedisciples. That's how the NIV
puts it. Jesus was indignantwith his disciples and said to
them, Let the children come toMe. You know, it would have
been, Let the children come toMe. He was indignant. He was
angry because something wasgoing on and we don't know,
because the narrative doesn'ttell us. But for some reason, it
(16:13):
was difficult for children toget to him. And I I've often
reflected on that story, and Iwonder, are we making it
difficult for children and youngpeople to come as they are, not
to come as we want them to, withthe right words and the right
clothing? And I've met so manychildren and young people, many
(16:33):
of whom who call themselvesChristians, who express such
relief in a prayer space becausethey can be themselves. I've
also met some Christian youngpeople who come into a prayer
space and look around for awhile and then come and say,
Where can we pray, though, andand I think that's because the
this they're so schooled into aparticular way of praying.
(16:59):
Praying involves long, coherentsentences filled with as many
Bible verses as we can fit in,you know, because God likes all
that stuff, you know, like, andI'm, I get into it. I, you know,
I spend my I have my quiet timein the morning, I go for a
wander on the beach, and I talkto God in and I say all the
things I think I ought to say.
And I sometimes wonder if God iskind of, you know, resting his
(17:23):
chin on his hand, and he's sortof looking at his watch, kind
of, come on, Phil, I'm going togo make a cup of tea when I come
back, can we talk about the factthat you argued with your wife
yesterday, and why haven't yougot to that bit yet? Because
that's what's really going onexactly.
Joshua Johnson (17:40):
I want to hear some stories from what's
happening around the world, butI want to hear a story about you
where a prayer space helped youconnect with God and ask
questions that you weren'tasking before that surface
something that you weren'texpecting.
Phil Sokell-Miles (17:56):
Oh, I wasn't expecting that one. Joshua,
okay, yeah. As I mentioned toyou before we kicked off, I I
had a sabbatical last year, andI was expecting I like running.
I was expecting to just run alot and read a lot, because I
like reading too. And I reallywasn't expecting that the Holy
(18:17):
Spirit would have a plan forthese three months too. And part
of that I spent over at aretreat center in the Lake
District, of going there. So myparents were divorced when I was
quite young, and throughout myteens, my early 20s, I've
wrestled with kind of knowingGod as a father and projecting
(18:39):
my unhealthy expectations offather into all sorts of
relationships, workrelationships as well. But, you
know, over the years, I feellike I've prayed the prayers and
done the work and talked topeople and, you know. And if
you'd asked me at the beginningof last year, Phil, how are you
doing with all of that stuff, Iwould have said, Joshua, I'm I'm
(19:02):
doing great. You know, Igenuinely feel like I'm fine.
Clearly, I wasn't as fine as Ithought. And so entering this
sabbatical time, andparticularly this this retreat,
it felt like the Holy Spiritjust took my hand and spoke to
me quite deeply throughdifferent passages in Scripture.
This is really personal. Now, Iwasn't expecting to do this, but
(19:24):
so the passage where Elisha andElijah are talking, and Elijah's
traveling from town to town andand Elisha is following him,
doggedly following him. AndElijah keeps saying to me, stay
here. I need to move on. AndElisha won't let him go. And
eventually Elijah says toElisha, you know what? What do
(19:45):
you want? And Elisha, I justwant you to bless me. And you
know I want to. And as I readit, I felt like he was saying, I
just, I want to be whole. I wantit's not I want stuff to Make Me
Amazing. It's just, I want to beblessed. Blessed. I want to be
whole. And I started weepingreading this passage because,
(20:06):
and this is me reading somethinginto the passage that isn't even
there, but it felt like the HolySpirit was revealing to me a
father and a son and and a son,just longing to be whole,
longing to be blessed. And Irealized that's, that's, that's,
that's the cry of my soul rightnow, as you want to be whole, I
want to be blessed. And, youknow, so that's a that's a
(20:29):
little snapshot. I I'm convincedthat prayer is the place where
we discover who we're meant tobe. It's not the place where we
do transactions with God. It wasnever meant to be that that's a
part of prayer, a tiny facetpetition, intercession. It's a
part of prayer, but prayerultimately, is about belonging.
(20:51):
It's about discovering that I'ma child. It's about climbing
onto Abba's lap and just sighingbecause that's where I belong,
and that's the most importantbit about prayer. All the other
stuff is bonus, you know, that'sthe most important bit of
prayer. And and I think thatpeople in 24/7 prayer rooms have
(21:13):
experienced that for 25 years,you know, they've gone in with
their prayer lists and suddenlyrealized that God is less
interested in that and moreinterested in saying, I love
you. I've been looking forward Ilove you. Just, just listen.
Just let me embrace you and andI think that's what children and
(21:35):
young people have been tasting,experiencing completely
unexpectedly. You know, for manyof them who don't even know who
God is, and yet, they come tothe end of an hour in a prayer
space in a school trying toarticulate some kind of
experience. You know, I've justscribbled down this quote here.
It's one of my favorites from aprayer space, and we've got this
(21:58):
on video. When we did a littlevideo thing couple of years ago
in the UK. We went to interviewteachers and kids as well, and
we got their permission. And ifyou get to see this video, that
you've got to watch this,because there's this boy. He
must be 10 or 11 years old, andhe's clearly trying to put into
words what he felt. And this iswhat he said, I sort of feel
(22:21):
like it made me feel like whole.
It filled in the gaps. Now Ihaven't done justice to it, but
that's those are the words hesays, and he's stuttering, and
he's sort of looking away fromthe camera because he's trying
to articulate an experience, anencounter. It made me feel
whole. Surely, that's whatprayer is about, in what, more
(22:44):
than all of the other stuff thatwe do when we pray, surely, it's
about being remembered,reconnected, reconciled, brought
back into wholeness, becausethen we can change the world.
Joshua Johnson (22:59):
That's beautiful. I think some people,
when they're thinking aboutprayer spaces, they're like, if
you're coming from a certainsubset of Christianity in
America, I think some peoplewill think, man, you just have a
prayer space. Everybody'swelcome. How does this actually
point to God? How can peopleconnect to to him. What would
(23:23):
you say to people where you'reyou, you've created something
where people from all faiths arewelcome and they engage. People
without faith are welcome. Theyengage and they discover God,
the Creator. What do you say topeople who are they don't
understand that it's foreveryone.
Phil Sokell-Miles (23:43):
Oh, wow. I'm nervous in answering this
question, Joshua, because I feellike some people who listen to
this podcast are going to writeme off after this. Others will
be delighted. But I can onlydescribe my experience of 17
years in school, and bear inmind that hosting a prayer space
is not a teaching environment.
There are always Christians thathost prayer spaces, whether
(24:06):
those in our context, volunteersfrom a local church. It's easy
for us to do that in otherplaces. In Germany, most of the
prayer spaces are hosted byChristian teachers. In fact, the
very first prayer space inGermany was hosted by a 14 year
old student, but we can get onto that if you like. But So
prayer spaces are hosted byChristians, and so we set up
(24:27):
these activities and and theactivities are very human,
letting go of worries, askingbig questions, offering
forgiveness, processing griefand loss, expressing gratitude.
They're all none of this isexclusive to Christianity, nor
is it exclusive to any sort ofreligion, spirituality. These
are fundamentally humanexperiences, and each of the
(24:50):
activities will invite thestudents to express their hope
or their wish or their prayer.
You know, and like I say, Ourexperience is that it's
remarkable how many children,young people, want to pray so
they're hosted, but they're not.
It's a very light touch. It'sit's hospitality in action
rather than teaching. These arelearning experiential places
(25:14):
rather than a teaching spaces.
Now, the remarkable thing is thefeedback that children and young
people express towards the endof their time, and we always try
to make time for this and listencarefully, is extraordinary. You
know, children and young peoplewho describe when I came into
(25:36):
this room, I didn't know if Ibelieved in God or not, but now
I do, and I'm left scratching myhead, going, how did that
happen? You know, there's postit notes, and there's cardboard
hanging on bits of string, andthere's a tent in the corner,
and there's a bowl that you dropstones into over there, and, and
I'm kind of going, Yeah, how didthat happen? And the only
(25:58):
conclusion I can come to Joshuais the Holy Spirit is really
good at this stuff, and the HolySpirit is eager to get started.
I was a pain in the first coupleof prayer spaces. I got to host,
one of which was in mydaughter's school. I was
interrupting every these were,this was a high school. I was
interrupting every student,every active I was buzzing
(26:21):
around like, Oh, do you likethat activity? What did you
write as your big question? Oh,is there anything you'd like to
ask me? You know, this was myfrustrated evangelist in me,
desperate to dive into everyconversation and interrupt. And
it took me, sadly, a couple ofprayer spaces to get the hint
from the Holy Spirit, that it'svery good at this stuff, and
(26:44):
it's like I can take a stepback, you know, I think it was
Henry now on in his book Thewounded healer, who said, he
said something like this, I amafraid that in a few decades,
the church will be accused ofhaving failed at its most basic
task, offering people creativeways to commune with the source
(27:06):
of life. I think I've got thatquote right. I'll say it again.
I am afraid that in a fewdecades, and he wrote this a few
decades ago, the church will beaccused of having failed at its
most basic task, offering peoplecreative ways to commune with
the source of life. I think wethought our most basic task was
(27:28):
something else, ie, dare I sayit, telling people stuff. Now
there, of course, there's aplace for telling, teaching,
preaching, proclaiming. Ofcourse, there is a place for
that. That is a critical part ofhow we communicate the gospel.
But maybe it's not our mostbasic task. Maybe our most basic
(27:49):
task, as Henry now on said, andI would suggest, Jesus
demonstrated, is creatingenvironments, making spaces,
setting up situations wherepeople can bump into the
presence of God and be left withlots of hunger and thirst. It
seems to me, that's the wayJesus functioned with the
(28:09):
crowds. Of course, with hisdisciples, he's unpacking
scripture and he's challengingthings, and he's getting into
the talking. But with thecrowds, he seems to do all sorts
of weird things, you know, if hefeeds them Miraculously, he
slaps mud in someone's eye. Hetells stories that are a little
bit vague, and even hisdisciples don't know what he
(28:32):
means by some of them.
Sometimes, you know, he doesthings. He creates environments
that leave people hungering andthirsting for more such that
they keep following him. Theydon't fully understand who he
is, and he certainly doesn'tpreface all of his parables. Was
just so, you know, just soyou're not confused. I'm the
Messiah, you know. Just, youknow, before we get into
(28:52):
anything else, just a few bulletpoints. You know, he doesn't do
that, and he wanders off beforethey have a chance to answer his
to ask their questions. And so Ithink we're more bothered about
this stuff than Jesus is. Andlet me just just tell you a
couple of stories. And like Isay, there might be a switch off
moment here. I visited a PrimarySchool in East London. About 70%
(29:16):
of the kids in this schoolMuslim so, you know, high Muslim
population local area, and thisschool set up a prayer space in
the in the hall. They set up allsorts of activities around them,
and they clustered them intofour zones, which is generally
works better in a kindergarten.
(29:39):
And so we had a team member oneach zone, just to explain to
the kids what the zones wereabout. I went to visit on the
Friday just to go and check inand see how it was going. And I
went and sat myself at the thankyou the gratitude zone. And they
had a few activities there. Oneof them were involved, just big
sheets of paper on the floorwhere the children were
(29:59):
involved. Invited to write ordraw if they wanted what they
were thankful for, and if theywanted to, they could use this
to express prayer. And so I satthere for this whole day
watching these lovely kids,these beautiful kids, write and
draw their thank yous, and manyof them were prayers. And the
fascinating thing was, a lot ofthe prayers that the Muslim
(30:23):
kids, these Islamic kids wrote,were really affectionate. I love
you, Allah, thank you for lovingme. I feel so safe with you.
Really affectionate, expressiveprayers. Now, you know, I don't
know about you, but I don't knowa great deal about Islam, and at
the end of the day, when the thehead of re came and helped us
(30:44):
pack down and we had a littledebrief session. I said to her,
Look, you know, I'm I'minterested. I'm curious about
some of these prayers. Is thatis, is this how some of these
kids would usually pray? Andshe's like, Oh, no, definitely
not. You know, at the end of theschool day, most of our Muslim
kids would go to the mosque, andthe boys would be taught this,
(31:05):
and the girls would be taughtthat the postures and the
rhythms and the words forprayer, and they certainly
wouldn't use this kind of stuff,and they certainly weren't using
these kinds of words, whichleaves us with a fascinating
question, what's going on now?
Here's, here's my, my thinkingaround this. I think these
(31:27):
little kids are entering a placewhere the Holy Spirit is
present, and they're sensing it,something about that every human
being is made in the image ofGod, made to commune with the
source of life to use, Henry nowand words every one of us,
irrespective of our background,our religious upbringing,
anything like that, there's aspirit within us that wants to
(31:50):
cry. Abba, you know? And I thinkwhat's going on is these kids
are entering this space, andtheir spirit is waking up, is
hungering, thirsting, andthey're simply using the
language that they know, thatdesire is making its way through
their body to their fingertips,you know, and they're drawing on
the language that they know. Andso we're if that's the case,
(32:13):
we're left with this puzzle. IsGod in heaven? Has he got his
fingers in his ears going, la,la, Lila. I'm not listening
until you get my name right, oris God in heaven going, Yeah, I
love you. I really love you. I'mglad you sent something. You
know, I think so many childrenand young people are like the
(32:34):
two disciples on the road toEmmaus that they they spend that
hour in the prayer space,placing stones into bowls of
water and fizzy tablets intojars of water, and writing on
post it notes and bits of tornup cardboard and laying in
silence in a in a in a tent, ina gazebo, or whatever they're
doing, and their hearts arestrangely warmed that they're
(32:56):
experiencing something becauseJesus has drawn alongside them
and and perhaps they don't evenrecognize that it's him at the
end of that lesson. And does itreally matter at that moment? I
don't think so, because ajourney has begun. They will
remember that moment for therest of their life, just just to
give you one example, and thenI'll finish really long answer
(33:19):
to your question. We had abeautiful story just just a few
months ago, from NorthernIreland, a young girl. She's
about 10 years old. I'll callher Ellie. She's really good
runner. She's a really good 5krunner, and she was out for
that's why you like, yeah,absolutely. I zero in on stories
about running. Absolutely. Didyou know Eugene Peterson was a
(33:40):
long distance trail runner. Ilove him to bits already. So
yeah. So Ellie, she was she wasout for a run with her parents,
and they're running alongsidethe coastline, and all of a
sudden, she ducks off the pathdown some steps onto the beach
and down to the shoreline andand grabs a couple of handfuls
of sand and starts to let ittrickle through her fingers. And
(34:00):
her parents, understandably alittle bit puzzled about this.
We were, we were on for a PBhere, you know what you doing.
And so her mom walked upalongside her, and she you okay?
Is everything all right? And shesaid, Oh yeah, Mom, I just
suddenly aware of, I feelworried about lots of things at
the moment, and I remembered anactivity we did in the prayer
(34:23):
space in my school two yearsago, and I realized I just
wanted to feel lighter, so Ithought I'd pray. So these,
these moments, theseexperiences, are carried
viscerally, far more than words.
What we you know we know that weknow that we the things we smell
and taste and touch, you knowand hear, their memories are
attached to those far morestrongly than words, and so I
(34:46):
think that's why Jesus does whathe does so often. He does
things. He doesn't just saythings. He gives he creates
experiences. He creates moments.
For people to encounter, communewith, the source of life. And I
think that's what's happening inthese prayer spaces. So is it
any wonder that those seeds bearfruit later on? The Holy Spirit
(35:11):
is cultivating these seeds farmore than we are. You know, we,
we feel like we. We have tochuck in a few bullet points at
the end, by the way, that wasJesus, and He died for you, and
He rose again, and, you know,and I'm sure Jesus would be
like, going, don't worry, you'llbe all right. Don't worry, we're
cultivating that seed. It'sokay.
Joshua Johnson (35:30):
So what does that look like? I think, for for
me, if I'm if I'm wanting tofacilitate a prayer space in
school help kids interact withthese creative prompts to pray.
My first instinct after that is,I want to figure out how to
companion them after the prayerspace as well. I don't want just
(35:51):
to leave them there. What doescompanioning Then look like for
people after they're they'redone with this prayer space?
Yeah.
Phil Sokell-Miles (35:59):
So here in the UK, we get inquiries all the
time from local churches andfrom schools. Now, schools
contact us direct, saying wewant a prayer space. We've heard
about this prayer space thing,if it's churches, our first
response is always, are youalready in a long term
relationship? Are you datingthis school? You know is
(36:20):
something happening here.
Because, if your intention isjust to run a prayer space for
one week, and in a, as I saidearlier, as a kind of fishing
expedition to try and bolsterthe children's work or the youth
work, please don't do it. Youknow, it's, it's, it lacks
integrity, for a start. Andalso, I just, it's, it may be
damaging, you know, because aprayer space is a place of
(36:42):
safety where children and youngpeople often talk about the
stuff that's going on in theirlives. And if we're kind of
waving goodbye at the end of theweek, see you next year. I just,
I think that lacks integrity. Soour encouragement to churches is
prayer spaces are a reallybrilliant way of accelerating or
or even kick starting, arelationship with school, but,
(37:06):
but it's not the goal. The goalisn't the prayer space. The goal
is this trusting relationship,serving blessing relationship.
And there's all sorts of otherways that you can serve and
bless schools. Prayer spacesjust happen to be really
effective, and perhaps for sucha time as this, more than ever
before with with the well beingneeds, the mental health needs,
(37:28):
the trauma that many childrenand young people are
experiencing, prayer spaces inschools are so valuable, so
needed, a place to be still, aplace to process this stuff a
place to ask spiritualquestions. So they're incredibly
effective, but like any tool inthe wrong hands, they can be
misused. And so we we really tryand encourage church local
(37:53):
Christians, even local teachers.
Don't do this as a one off, butuse it as part of a way of
serving, blessing, encouraging,and so all sorts of things can
can spin off in we've heard ofalpha courses starting in
schools or lunchtime clubs, bigquestion clubs, chaplaincy
(38:14):
programs after school. Clubs inMilwaukee, after doing an
initial prayer space, it'sactually turned into a weekly
thing every Wednesday andThursday. Darnell and some of
the volunteers from from hislocal church are in that school.
The school decided this is sovaluable for the students in
(38:34):
this public school that we willgive you a room. It's on the
corridor next to the sexualeducation stuff, which Darnell
finds very amusing, you know,but there is a room. It's called
the quiet space, and it isavailable every Wednesday and
every Thursday for students tobe referred by the
psychologists, the socialworkers in the school, the
tutors, any student that thiswould be of benefit to off, they
(38:59):
go to this place. And so someprayer spaces have become,
become permanent. I think thatquestion of what's next is
really, really important, and Iwould encourage churches and
schools to consider that beforethey even run their first prayer
space.
Joshua Johnson (39:14):
I know in the United States, I'm like, Hey,
there's something in Milwaukee.
I think that's fantastic,because a lot of people in the
US are going to go, Hey, there'sseparation of church and state
in public schools. You can'treally do anything with
religious education or anything,so prayer spaces is going to be
really hard to do in schools.
(39:34):
But hey, it's happening, andthat's good. So in places, maybe
like the US, or in other placesin the world where you found
where it's not like the UK,where there needs to be some
spiritual education, what workswhen we go in with relationship
with the school, like, how do weget something started when it
(39:56):
doesn't seem an easy path? Yeah,
Phil Sokell-Miles (39:59):
it's a great question. And I think the answer
to that has changed over thelast 567, years. I feel like the
tone of the question has shiftedfrom a sort of, this is really,
this is going to be reallydifficult. I can't see how this
is possible to we really needthis. Let's figure it out. You
(40:19):
know, I think that has that'sshifted. I've noticed even in my
conversations with people in theStates, you know, six, seven
years ago, people were sort ofleaning back, folded arms. This
is very unlikely, because of ourpolitical, cultural, you know,
setting, whereas I'm havingemails, Zoom calls twice a week,
(40:39):
at least with people in theStates, whether that's students
or parents or teachers churchleaders. And I think that's
because the need is great. Andthe interesting thing is,
children and young people seemto be the same the world over.
The education systems aredifferent. Church culture is
(41:00):
obviously different, but whenyou translate the prayers, the
hopes, the fears, the anxieties,the big questions for God,
they're pretty much the same theworld over. And that I find
interesting. There's the sameanxieties and struggles, but
there is also, dare I say it,there's a there's a growing
(41:20):
hunger for church, for Jesus,for faith, for prayer. It's,
it's, and it's not tied to andit's not an interest in
institutional Christianity, butit is an interest in Jesus and
prayer, and something that meanssomething. So I'm very
interested in the States,particularly in what student led
(41:40):
prayer spaces might look like,and we've had quite a few
conversations with students. Idid last weekend, I was on a
call with a 17 year old studentin Portland who is very
interested coming to the 24/7national gathering. Wants to
talk about this, and it wasgreat to be able to say to her
the very first prayer space inGermany was started by a 14 year
(42:01):
old student who came to one ofour conferences. This was in
2012 she came to one of ourconferences with a school
teacher and a youth worker. Theyflew over to London, listened to
all the stories, listened to theseminars, and I sat with her at
the end. Her name's Izzy, andthere's a whole chapter in my
book about her. And I said toher, what do you think? And she
(42:22):
said, I love this, but there'sno way we could do this in my
school. I only know a couple ofother Christians, and I there's
no we can't have outsidevolunteers come and help out.
Four months later, she sent mean email describing the prayer
space that she'd run. It's forher friend in her school. I've
used much of the email verbatimin the book, because it's so
(42:43):
fun. It's just a 14 year old.
Her final line was, it's socool. I now no longer think
anything is impossible for God.
She told this brilliant story. Iknow I'm digressing here, but so
she hosts, you know, shewelcomed her own friends into
the first first hour in thisprayer space. Really
(43:04):
embarrassed, awkward, you know,really outing myself as a
Christian here. And so describethe activities, big questions,
letting go of worries, sayingsorry, all that kind of stuff.
And all of her friends were sortof stood awkwardly as well. And
for the first 10 minutes, theysort of shuffled around and just
looked at things and and Izzywondered if, if anything was
(43:26):
going to happen. And thengradually, they sort of softened
up. And she said, by the end ofthat first hour, there were post
it notes and torn up bits ofcardboard with all sorts of
prayers written on them. And herfriends were saying to her, I
just love this. This is great.
This is I I've always beeninterested in God, but I've
never known where I can askthese questions. You know, she
was just like mind blown by bywhat had changed almost
(43:48):
immediately, and she at the endof her email, she's told this
amazing story where one of theclasses, a teacher, had brought
a class in for the session, andthe students had gone round and
explored, and then he'd takenthem back to another classroom
and done a little bit offeedback with them, and asked
them how they felt and what didthey think. And one of the
questions he asked was, Do anyof you pray regularly, you know,
(44:11):
in your in your daily life, andthere was lots of kind of
laughter, and, you know, nobodyprays. And then this one boy, I
think he was a 1314, year oldboy, stuck his hand up and said,
I pray the Lord's prayer everynight. And some of his friends
were looking at him. Are youcrazy? You pray the Lord's
Prayer. I bet you don't know it.
(44:33):
Do you know it? Go and do itnow, at which point this boy got
out of his chin, stood up infront of all of his friends and
started to pray out loud, theLord's Prayer, and the laughter
just immediately fell tosilence, and they listened as he
recited the Lord's Prayer. Andas he finished, the whole class
erupted in applause. It was aholy moment, you know, and there
(44:57):
are just loads of remind.
Remarkable moment stories likethis. So in answer your
question, I think, I think itwill be really interesting in
the States in particular, whatstudent led prayer spaces look
like. We have heard some littlestories. Pockets of people that
are doing lunchtime clubs andusing a few prayer activities
haven't got use of a whole roomfor a whole week. But why not
(45:20):
just get a couple of activitiesout in a lunchtime club? We
heard a story from a good, goodfriend in Kansas City was
invited by a Christian school toset up a prayer space for the
teachers. You know, teachers arestressed under a lot of
pressure, and so that's whatthey did. They went to serve
this school by setting up, justfor one day, a whole load of
(45:41):
prayer activities, and some ofthe volunteers from the church
were there too to offer prayerfor the teachers if they wanted
that. What was reallyinteresting was some teachers
from other schools came tovisit. And in particular, there
were a handful of teachers frompublic schools who were looking
at the activities and speakingto Katie, who's organizing and
saying, We love this. We reallyneed to figure out how to do
(46:04):
this in our schools. And I thinkthat's the interesting thing. Is
the prayer space model, when,when teachers see it, when when
pupils see it, they're like, Oh,this isn't what I thought it was
going to be, and we really needthis. So we need to figure out
how, where the door to prizeopen, you know? And that's,
(46:28):
that's the key in every nation.
That's what I find. I'm lookingfor, is teachers. I've got, I'm
kind of going look, here's avideo, here's some stories. I
know that you're going to thinkthis is going to be valuable for
your student. It's notproselytizing, we're not
coercing, we're serving. We'reblessing at a cultural moment
(46:50):
where kids need a space toprocess what's going on in their
lives, and they need a safeplace to ask their questions
about faith and prayer. Thiswill do that. You guys need to
figure out how, what's thelanguage that we need to what
are the doors?
Joshua Johnson (47:05):
I think that's really good and helpful. I want
to know how this approach inthere and prayer spaces, kinds
of shifts and changes the way wedo youth work and youth
ministry,
Phil Sokell-Miles (47:18):
yeah, and that's a great question for all
the youth workers out there.
Yeah, I just, I think we've beenlocked into a model that has
served its time, maybe where wedo everything from the front we
do unto young people and I, andI just wonder if there, there's
a time coming, and is now herewhere we trust the work of the
(47:42):
Holy Spirit. You know, I as a 15year old in in school, that was
my kind of coming to faithmoment. I've been part of church
for a very long time, but I justlived a double life, like a lot
of kids do, I think, you know,and it was as a 15 year old,
there was a moment of reckoning.
It happened between me and Godin my bedroom. And and I
(48:03):
realized it's either it's all ornothing, really. And, and I went
back into my school absolutelydetermined, I want to live for
Jesus, but I'm going to needsome friends. And God gave me
some Christian friends at thetime. And we we started praying
before school every day, and wedid crazy things. We went out
and talked to people out in theplayground and field outside,
(48:24):
and we did a march for Jesus.
This is old school properly, youknow, with with a guitar and all
that sort of stuff. And we led alot of our friends to Jesus. And
I think we saw about 150students come to faith during
that couple of years. And and I,I just know this stuff works.
You know, Holy Spirit can betrusted. And we, we perhaps need
to take a step back and and justtry and get a sense of what is
(48:49):
the Lord doing, and join in withthat, rather than try and
control it. It's that. It's howI felt on that first day. We
need to steward this and notmess it up. We are so good at
labeling things and trying tocontrol things and and the Holy
Spirit tolerates that for awhile. And then I think the Holy
Spirit kind of goes, I don'twant to play anymore. I'm going
(49:09):
to go and do something else.
Yeah, this isn't doesn't feelalive anymore. And so I think, I
think we're in a moment when theHoly Spirit is doing something.
There's the breath of God.
There's something happeningright now, and so we just need
to honor, you know, to honor theHoly Spirit and make a lot of
space for that. And I, I do. I'mattracted to creative things
(49:30):
because I things that are lesstethered to words sometimes seem
to have a little bit more lifeto them.
Joshua Johnson (49:39):
What hope do you have for sticky note prayers and
what's an invitation for peoplewhen it comes to prayer spaces
for schools?
Phil Sokell-Miles (49:45):
Do you know what? I loved writing this book,
but because I loved capturingthe stories, I spent months and
months phoning people, havingzoom calls with people, coffee
conversations with people,basically going I've been
retelling your stories for.
Years, can I just check that I'mstill telling true versions of
and it was wonderful for mebecause I got to hear loads of
(50:05):
stuff that I'd completelyforgotten and I didn't know
about. And so this book is fullof stories. It's stories from
start to finish, as you canprobably tell from this
conversation, Josh, I juststories are what bring me to
life. You know, he's just soobsessed with bullet pointing
things. I just think stories arethe way forward. Anyway, the
(50:27):
book is full of stories. It'salso draws on some research that
we did. We realized that wedidn't really understand what
was going on in prayer spaces inschools, and we needed some
clever people to help us withthat. So I went to meet a
professor at York St JohnUniversity. I was fairly
intimidated. His name was JulianStern. What a name. Hey, for a
(50:47):
professor, I would think I wasworried meeting him just because
of his name, but he was a lovelyguy, and he spent a year
researching the impact thatprayer spaces were having on
children's and young people'sspirituality. And so a big chunk
of the book is really basedaround the research he did,
which has really informed oursort of philosophy, our theology
(51:10):
of prayer spaces in school. So alot of that is in the book
illustrated by stories. Thereare. There's a few really mad
miracle stories in there,Joshua, which I don't, I
generally don't tell because Ithink we can be really
distracted by miracles. You knowa 10 year old, nine year old boy
that writes on a post it noteabout the the rash on his skin,
(51:31):
that it really upsets him, andthen within an hour, the rash is
gone. Nobody lays hands on him.
Nobody has prayed for him.
Nobody's given him a in the nameof Jesus, prayer to pray, but
he's written something. I don'teven know what he wrote in that
post it note, but, and we'vefact checked and verified these
stories. I I prayed an utterlyfaithless example, prayer to a
(51:54):
teenage girl in a prayer space.
She was clearly uncomfortableabout the prayer space she'd
visited, and didn't want to goand do any of the activities,
and she was standing next to meon crutches, and I said to her,
Look, what have you done to yourfoot? And she said a horse had
trodden on it and broken themetatarsal in her foot.
(52:17):
Apparently, ballet dancers andfootballers break these bones
regularly, and people who gettrodden on by horses. And so I,
you know, sensing herdiscomfort, I just said, Look, I
could pray for you and I gohome, if you like. And she's
like, that's a bit weird. Isaid, No, prayer is really
simple, and here I'm beingreally honest with you. All I
wanted her to do was to hear aChristian pray a prayer that
(52:39):
wasn't weird. And so I just did,hey, Chrissy, it just be like
this, dear God, you know thatChrissy is in pain. You know
about that broken metatarsal? Bereally cool if you fixed it,
because a Chrissy wouldn't be inpain anymore, and also she'd
know that you're reallyinterested in her, amen. And she
sort of, I My eyes were open. Iwas looking at her as I said
(53:02):
those words. It was a faithlessprayer. And she sort of looked
at me and laughed, and herfriends laughed and went, Oh, if
that's a prayer, yeah, you canpray for me. And I laughed and
went, Well, I kind of just did,let's leave it at that. That was
the Thursday. On the Mondaymorning, I got a call from the
head of our head of PE physicaleducation who was organizing the
(53:23):
prayer space. She was aChristian, and she left me a
voicemail saying, Phil, did youpray for a girl called Chrissy?
Because she all the pain went ofher and her foot that night, and
her parents were really puzzled,and so they took her to the
hospital for a scan, and theyhad a second scan, comparing it
to the first scan, there was abroken metatarsal in the first
(53:43):
one, and there wasn't in thesecond one. And so she's jumping
around saying, I've experienceda miracle. So there are stories
like that in the book, but thereare also loads of miracles that
I think are more important, andthey're the ones where a child
or a young person entered aprayer space hating themselves
and left loving themselves.
Those are the daily miraclesthat I think will last a lot
(54:04):
longer. So the book's full ofthat. And my hope is that
people, whether they arestudents or parents or teachers,
read it and think there must bea way for me to do this where I
am. There's got to be a way todo this and and I would love to
have conversations with anyoneto help them.
Joshua Johnson (54:24):
Well, Phil, I have a couple quick questions
here at the end. One, if you goback to your 21 year old self,
what advice would you give
Phil Sokell-Miles (54:31):
I was really earnest about a lot of things. I
knew everything as a 21 yearold, and I'm embarrassed now
about some of the things that Idogmatically believed and
proclaimed, I think I would sayto my 21 year old self, spend
more time listening to peopleand to God. There's a lot more
(54:53):
to hear if you listen carefully.
My middle daughter is profoundlydeaf. Half, and she can't hear
anything at all, but she wasfitted with cochlear implants.
They're in the miracle oftechnology. When she had her
first one, when she was two anda half, and we went to a
specialist Hearing Center, andthe manager there, I'm cutting a
(55:16):
long story short here, but themanager said to us, she can hear
now with these cochlearimplants, she just needs to
learn how to listen. And I Ifeel like there's a profound
life lesson there certainly aprayer lesson. We hear loads of
stuff all the time. We are wehave these mobile phone things,
and it just churns out stuff allthe time. We're not very good at
(55:37):
listening. And I wish I'dlearned to listen earlier.
Joshua Johnson (55:42):
Yeah, it's good.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately you could
recommend.
Phil Sokell-Miles (55:46):
Or I'm reading Tyler staton's book,
praying like monks, living likefools, which I absolutely love,
so I would definitely recommendthat. And I'm also reading a
book by Christine westoff calledabout the voice of God, which is
all about learning to listen toGod's voice. So I definitely
recommend those
Joshua Johnson (56:05):
good recommendations. Sticking out
prayers is fantastic. You saidit. There's lots of stories.
It's inspirational. It's fun,and man, so incredible. What God
is doing all around the worldthrough prayer spaces in
schools. It is incredible. So Ireally want people to go and get
this book. It is available. Howcan people get the book? And
(56:29):
where can they connect with you?
If they're interested in prayerspaces, how can they connect?
Phil Sokell-Miles (56:33):
Thank you. As far as I'm aware, it's so it's
out on the ninth of October.
It's on Amazon. You can get itfrom there. I think it's also
being stocked in Barnes andNoble so there in the States, is
a great place to go and get yourbooks. You can connect with me
at my email address, which isPhil. At prayer spaces in
schools.com, surprise, surprise.
(56:56):
And the website, www, dot prayerspaces in schools.com. Has loads
of kind of basic informationabout what prayer spaces are and
how they function, andconnections then to our national
coordinators around the world.
Joshua Johnson (57:10):
Perfect. Well, Phil, thank you for this
conversation. Thank you forsharing story after story of
what God is doing in prayerspaces and how God has worked in
your own heart, in your own lifethrough prayer connection with
him. And you know, if we couldjust set up some ways, creative
ways, so that we can communewith the source of life, that is
(57:32):
what we need to do. And so,yeah, thank you for helping us
get to a place where we canconnect with God in deeper ways.
So thank you. Thank you. You.
He's trying to articulate an experience, an
(00:03):
encounter. It made me feelwhole. Surely, that's what
prayer is about in more than allof the other stuff that we do
when we pray. Surely it's aboutbeing remembered, reconnected,
reconciled, brought back intowholeness. You.
Joshua Johnson (00:33):
Paul, hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, Phil Sol
miles, believes that prayer canopen doors we didn't know
existed for nearly 20 years.
He's helped create those doors,spaces and schools where
children and young people canpause, reflect and encounter
(00:54):
something sacred. What began asa simple experiment within the
24/7 prayer movement has becomea global story of creativity,
presence and transformation. Inthis episode, Phil shares how
prayer spaces in schools grewfrom a handful of classrooms in
the UK into a movement spanningdozens of countries. We talk
(01:15):
about what happens when we tradecontrol for curiosity, when we
stop talking at people and startcreating space for them to meet
God for themselves, he remindsus that prayer isn't a formula
or a project. It's an invitationto belonging, to being known, to
being made whole. This is aconversation about the Spirit's
(01:35):
quiet work in unexpected places,and how simple acts of
hospitality can open hearts tothe love of God. So join us and
discover what God is doing inprayer spaces and schools. Here
is my conversation with Phil.
Sokol miles, Phil, welcome toshifting culture. So excited to
(01:55):
have you on thanks for joiningme.
Phil Sokell-Miles (01:57):
It's wonderful to be here. Joshua,
thanks for inviting me. Excited
Joshua Johnson (02:01):
to dive into sticky note prayers, her new
book about prayer spaces forschools. This, this 24/7 prayer
movement that has actually gonearound the world, and we see
these prayer spaces in schools,that young children in schools
are able to go into these spacesand pray and actually connect
(02:22):
with God, which is an incrediblething, incredible movement. How
did it start? Like, where wasyour What was your origin story
into these prayer spaces forschools?
Phil Sokell-Miles (02:32):
Yeah, it's a great question. I've been I got
caught up with the 24/7 prayermovement right at the start. For
those who are aware of 24/7prayer will be aware that it's
it all feels accidental. It allfeels like it kind of happened
to us rather than happenedbecause of us. I was working as
24 sevens, first nationaldirector in 2004 2005 and one of
(02:57):
the best things about that rolewas the emails, the phone
conversations with churches whowere running 24/7 prayer rooms.
And, you know, people wereexperiencing the presence of God
in their churches. Surprise,surprise, you know, and lots of
incredible things werehappening. And one of the fun
things were was that theseprayer rooms seemed to be
(03:20):
escaping from churches andpopping up in other places,
like, you know, the party islandof Ibiza, magic mushroom
festival in Mexico, in theBritish Houses of Parliament.
You know, in some third spaces,missional spaces, these prayer
rooms were popping up, but noneof us expected them to pop up in
(03:41):
schools. And that's exactly whathappened in the 2007 2008
academic year, we heard fourstories from around England,
unknown to one another. I thinkit was GK Chesterton that said
that coincidences are God'sspiritual puns, which I quite
like we had this coincidence offour people, people who'd had
(04:07):
experience of 24/7 prayer roomin their church, who then took
the principles, the ideas, thekind of values, into schools.
And so this was a mix of highschools and what we call primary
schools, kindergarten, churchschools and public schools. And
(04:27):
so I was fascinated. I trainedas a youth and community worker.
I, you know, young people is inmy blood. And so when I heard
these stories, I was like, Iwant to find out more about
this. And so we invited thepeople who'd organized it to
come to London. You know, wepaid their train fare. We just
want to talk. And we spent thisday Joshua. I just, I vividly
(04:48):
remember it. We spent this dayasking questions, scrutinizing,
what did you do? What happened?
What did the children say? Whatdid the young people say?
Especially those that weren'tChristians. What did, what did
the staff say? How did you getpermission in the first place?
You know, all of this stuff,what was in the room, you know?
And the only way I can describeit is it just felt holy, you
(05:11):
know, I I had a shiver down myspine for most of the day, which
I have right now as I'm tellingyou this story. It's, it's, it's
like my early warning system.
It's like, this is Holy Spirit.
Shiver, shiver. You know, Phil,pay attention. I know you're
rubbish at listening. Payattention. You know? It felt
holy. It felt like, it felt likewe were being invited by the
(05:34):
Holy Spirit to stewardsomething. It was like, I've
started something, don't mess itup, you know, do good with it,
because this could be reallyexciting. And the critical
question that day was, is thisreproducible? You know, because
sometimes remarkable thingshappen in a certain place,
(05:55):
because, you know, it's amoment, it's a particular
person, and it's notreproducible and and we have to
accept that, but for somereason, it just felt like this
was a first fruit, a seed thathad been sown, and we were being
invited to steward it.
Joshua Johnson (06:13):
So the stewarding, what did it seem
like to you that made itreproducible instead of just a
moment?
Phil Sokell-Miles (06:22):
Yeah, I think so. One of the unique
opportunities in here in inGreat Britain is that we have an
education system that requiresschools to offer spiritual
learning. Anyone listening toyour podcast, who's who's a
teacher from the UK willunderstand this acronym, SMSC.
(06:42):
It stands for spiritual, moral,social and cultural learning.
And all schools, whether they'rechurch schools or public
schools, are expected to deliverSMSC. And that's one of the
things that the governmentchecks in you. You cannot be an
outstanding school unless youdeliver on this stuff. And even
amongst those first four, thatwas one of the bits of feedback
(07:05):
that teachers had given to thoseorganizing the prayer spaces.
And so immediately we realizedthis isn't like an added thing.
The schools are recognizing thatthis is helping them to deliver
something that they're expectedto deliver. You know, so it
already felt like this isintegral and and to be honest
(07:28):
with you, that that's becomeembedded in how we view prayer
spaces in schools. We we want tofind ways for this to be a
blessing to schools, to serveschools, and that's our our
appeal. When we do training withchurches, we said to them, don't
kind of kind of barge your wayin to try and add something.
(07:49):
Find a way to be a blessing.
Find a way to serve. And soyeah, that. I think that was our
key bit of learning here. Andyou know, surely that's the way
of the kingdom, isn't it to getto go and do good, to go and
rather than viewing schools as akind of mission or fishing
expedition, you know, let's,let's try and do things out
(08:10):
there in the community so thatwe can hook children and young
people and anyone else that wecan drag back into our church,
structures, products, projects.
How about we go and be ablessing? I think it was, oh
Keith green in his book nocompromise, where he said, Jesus
(08:31):
says, Go and make disciples. Hesays, Nothing about coming back.
And I love that, you know, andthat that felt embedded right at
the start. Let's go and be ablessing to school communities
without any intention of comingback. Let's go and do goodness,
do kindness, do generosity, dohope, do forgiveness, do
(08:52):
creating spaces to make iteasier for children and young
people to communicate with God.
Let's go and do it there and bea blessing there. And it seemed
like the doors were open. Now,obviously that's different. In
other nations, education systemsare different. So one of the
first questions that that weenter into with people in other
nations is, what's youreducation system like? What are
(09:14):
the doorways to serve, to go andbe a blessing? What's the
culture like, what are theneeds, what are the ways that we
can add value to schoolcommunities and go and seek
first, the Kingdom amongst theseschool communities? Frankly,
Joshua, when I started, when wefirst started doing this, I
(09:34):
thought, There's no way this isgoing to work anywhere else in
the world, because we have areally unique front door
opportunity. Now, 17 years on,we've had prayer spaces in 37
different countries, includingthe US, including in a public
school in the US, and what wefound is that Holy Spirit is
opening doors that no one canshut in remarkable ways. It
(09:57):
looks. Interestingly, the doorsare different, but the models
the same. So the same prayeractivities, the same rough
structure. It's just thelanguage that we need to learn.
We need to learn the language ofour culture and our communities,
but the message is the same.
Joshua Johnson (10:16):
So what is the message? Then, if you're like
training people to start prayerspaces for schools. What are
these prayer activities? Whatdoes it look like to have a
prayer space?
Phil Sokell-Miles (10:26):
Yeah, so typically, prayer spaces are
temporary. They run for a day, afew days, up to a week. There
are some schools, some settingswhere they've become permanent,
but that's not really the modelthat we would recommend starting
with, start with somethingtemporary. It involves using a
space could be indoors, could beoutdoors. The climate here in
(10:48):
the UK isn't brilliant foroutdoors, but you know, they're
occasionally prayer spaces intent with the new bows outside.
So temporary a physical spacethat's set aside and filled with
a series of interactive,creative activities, really
simple activities that invitepupils, students, teachers,
(11:11):
parents, all sorts of janitorswith everyone seems to get
involved, to reflect And orpray, and that's important. So
I've got our mission statementwritten down here, which is
prayer spaces enable childrenand young people of all faiths
and none. That's really, reallyimportant to us to explore
(11:34):
spirituality, prayer and life'sbig questions in a safe and a
creative and an interactive way.
So prayer spaces, they're not,they're not prayer rooms for
Christians. That's that's notwhat we're trying to do here.
There's, of course, there's aplace for that. I want to
encourage every Christian topray more and find, find ways,
as Paul says, Pray in in everypossible way, in every possible
(11:57):
occasion. But that's not themodel that that we've that we've
developed prayer spaces, andthey're not always called prayer
spaces. In in Vienna, they getcalled Soul spaces. In Salzburg,
in Austria, they get calledalive in Milwaukee, it's called
a quiet space. You know thatthere are different names for
these things, but the content isthe same. It will be a series of
(12:18):
maybe eight to 10 stations, youmight we might call them
activities for children andyoung people to express
something of what's going oninside them. So it could be an
activity about letting go ofworries or asking big questions.
That's my personal favorite one.
(12:41):
You know, the instructions nextto this activity will be whether
you believe in a God or not, ifGod was sitting in a chair at
this table, what's the one bigquestion you'd like to ask? And
there will be some torn up bitsof cardboard and maybe some
string hanging from the ceiling,and some pegs. And so the kids
would write their big questionsand peg it onto the string, you
(13:03):
know. And some of the questionswill be really funny, you know.
Some of them are, you know,their head questions. They're
like, I don't understand howGod, how can you listen to
everyone's prayers all at once?
Does everyone go to heaven? Youknow, do? Do all religions mean
the same thing. Some of them arekind of theory, theology, head
questions. Most of them areheart questions. Most of them
(13:25):
are God. Why has my granddad gotcancer? You know, why are my
parents fighting? Why don't theylove me? Why am I always alone?
You know, in fact, one of themost honest question type
prayers I ever read was on alittle I vividly remember it on
a green piece of paper. Thischild had written me on the
(13:46):
outside and had drawn a smileyface, a smiley emoji, me on the
inside, drawn this sad face,this sad emoji. You know, what
we found is that the childrenand young people, the stuff
that's going on in their livesis really, really close to the
surface. You know, you look atchildren and young people, and
(14:06):
you think they've got it alltogether, or they're hardened,
or they're resistant. Ourexperience of 17 years of
running hundreds and hundredsand hundreds of prayer spaces in
all kinds of settings is thatchildren and young people are
roughly the same. They're allbroken on the inside, and
they're all desperate for a safespace where they can express
process of stuff in their lives,and for many of them to try
(14:31):
praying if they're if they feelcoerced or pushed or required or
there are some rules to thisprayer, then they will steer
clear. But if they feel invitedto express the stuff on the
inside of them in a way thatmeans something to them, and
there are loads of stories Icould tell if we have time, then
(14:53):
our experience is that they'reitching to get. Started. It's
not an exaggeration. Joshua, Icould still count on the fingers
of one hand the number ofchildren and young people I've
seen refuse to participate in aprayer space in 17 years. What
Joshua Johnson (15:13):
do you think it is that the invitation and
creativity of these prayerspaces? What do you think that
does to kids, as opposed to,like, coercion and rules, and we
have to get this? Oh,
Phil Sokell-Miles (15:28):
wow. How much time have we got? You know? I
just, you know, I sometimeswonder if, if Jesus did wander
into some of our churchmeetings, whether he he'd be
looking around, scratching hishead, going, what? What are you
doing? What? What is this? Whyis it so difficult for for
people to be themselves? Here inMark 10, we read that story of
(15:51):
Jesus getting indignant with thedisciples. That's how the NIV
puts it. Jesus was indignantwith his disciples and said to
them, Let the children come toMe. You know, it would have
been, Let the children come toMe. He was indignant. He was
angry because something wasgoing on and we don't know,
because the narrative doesn'ttell us. But for some reason, it
(16:13):
was difficult for children toget to him. And I I've often
reflected on that story, and Iwonder, are we making it
difficult for children and youngpeople to come as they are, not
to come as we want them to, withthe right words and the right
clothing? And I've met so manychildren and young people, many
(16:33):
of whom who call themselvesChristians, who express such
relief in a prayer space becausethey can be themselves. I've
also met some Christian youngpeople who come into a prayer
space and look around for awhile and then come and say,
Where can we pray, though, andand I think that's because the
this they're so schooled into aparticular way of praying.
(16:59):
Praying involves long, coherentsentences filled with as many
Bible verses as we can fit in,you know, because God likes all
that stuff, you know, like, andI'm, I get into it. I, you know,
I spend my I have my quiet timein the morning, I go for a
wander on the beach, and I talkto God in and I say all the
things I think I ought to say.
And I sometimes wonder if God iskind of, you know, resting his
(17:23):
chin on his hand, and he's sortof looking at his watch, kind
of, come on, Phil, I'm going togo make a cup of tea when I come
back, can we talk about the factthat you argued with your wife
yesterday, and why haven't yougot to that bit yet? Because
that's what's really going onexactly.
Joshua Johnson (17:40):
I want to hear some stories from what's
happening around the world, butI want to hear a story about you
where a prayer space helped youconnect with God and ask
questions that you weren'tasking before that surface
something that you weren'texpecting.
Phil Sokell-Miles (17:56):
Oh, I wasn't expecting that one. Joshua,
okay, yeah. As I mentioned toyou before we kicked off, I I
had a sabbatical last year, andI was expecting I like running.
I was expecting to just run alot and read a lot, because I
like reading too. And I reallywasn't expecting that the Holy
(18:17):
Spirit would have a plan forthese three months too. And part
of that I spent over at aretreat center in the Lake
District, of going there. So myparents were divorced when I was
quite young, and throughout myteens, my early 20s, I've
wrestled with kind of knowingGod as a father and projecting
(18:39):
my unhealthy expectations offather into all sorts of
relationships, workrelationships as well. But, you
know, over the years, I feellike I've prayed the prayers and
done the work and talked topeople and, you know. And if
you'd asked me at the beginningof last year, Phil, how are you
doing with all of that stuff, Iwould have said, Joshua, I'm I'm
(19:02):
doing great. You know, Igenuinely feel like I'm fine.
Clearly, I wasn't as fine as Ithought. And so entering this
sabbatical time, andparticularly this this retreat,
it felt like the Holy Spiritjust took my hand and spoke to
me quite deeply throughdifferent passages in Scripture.
This is really personal. Now, Iwasn't expecting to do this, but
(19:24):
so the passage where Elisha andElijah are talking, and Elijah's
traveling from town to town andand Elisha is following him,
doggedly following him. AndElijah keeps saying to me, stay
here. I need to move on. AndElisha won't let him go. And
eventually Elijah says toElisha, you know what? What do
(19:45):
you want? And Elisha, I justwant you to bless me. And you
know I want to. And as I readit, I felt like he was saying, I
just, I want to be whole. I wantit's not I want stuff to Make Me
Amazing. It's just, I want to beblessed. Blessed. I want to be
whole. And I started weepingreading this passage because,
(20:06):
and this is me reading somethinginto the passage that isn't even
there, but it felt like the HolySpirit was revealing to me a
father and a son and and a son,just longing to be whole,
longing to be blessed. And Irealized that's, that's, that's,
that's the cry of my soul rightnow, as you want to be whole, I
want to be blessed. And, youknow, so that's a that's a
(20:29):
little snapshot. I I'm convincedthat prayer is the place where
we discover who we're meant tobe. It's not the place where we
do transactions with God. It wasnever meant to be that that's a
part of prayer, a tiny facetpetition, intercession. It's a
part of prayer, but prayerultimately, is about belonging.
(20:51):
It's about discovering that I'ma child. It's about climbing
onto Abba's lap and just sighingbecause that's where I belong,
and that's the most importantbit about prayer. All the other
stuff is bonus, you know, that'sthe most important bit of
prayer. And and I think thatpeople in 24/7 prayer rooms have
(21:13):
experienced that for 25 years,you know, they've gone in with
their prayer lists and suddenlyrealized that God is less
interested in that and moreinterested in saying, I love
you. I've been looking forward Ilove you. Just, just listen.
Just let me embrace you and andI think that's what children and
(21:35):
young people have been tasting,experiencing completely
unexpectedly. You know, for manyof them who don't even know who
God is, and yet, they come tothe end of an hour in a prayer
space in a school trying toarticulate some kind of
experience. You know, I've justscribbled down this quote here.
It's one of my favorites from aprayer space, and we've got this
(21:58):
on video. When we did a littlevideo thing couple of years ago
in the UK. We went to interviewteachers and kids as well, and
we got their permission. And ifyou get to see this video, that
you've got to watch this,because there's this boy. He
must be 10 or 11 years old, andhe's clearly trying to put into
words what he felt. And this iswhat he said, I sort of feel
(22:21):
like it made me feel like whole.
It filled in the gaps. Now Ihaven't done justice to it, but
that's those are the words hesays, and he's stuttering, and
he's sort of looking away fromthe camera because he's trying
to articulate an experience, anencounter. It made me feel
whole. Surely, that's whatprayer is about, in what, more
(22:44):
than all of the other stuff thatwe do when we pray, surely, it's
about being remembered,reconnected, reconciled, brought
back into wholeness, becausethen we can change the world.
Joshua Johnson (22:59):
That's beautiful. I think some people,
when they're thinking aboutprayer spaces, they're like, if
you're coming from a certainsubset of Christianity in
America, I think some peoplewill think, man, you just have a
prayer space. Everybody'swelcome. How does this actually
point to God? How can peopleconnect to to him. What would
(23:23):
you say to people where you'reyou, you've created something
where people from all faiths arewelcome and they engage. People
without faith are welcome. Theyengage and they discover God,
the Creator. What do you say topeople who are they don't
understand that it's foreveryone.
Phil Sokell-Miles (23:43):
Oh, wow. I'm nervous in answering this
question, Joshua, because I feellike some people who listen to
this podcast are going to writeme off after this. Others will
be delighted. But I can onlydescribe my experience of 17
years in school, and bear inmind that hosting a prayer space
is not a teaching environment.
There are always Christians thathost prayer spaces, whether
(24:06):
those in our context, volunteersfrom a local church. It's easy
for us to do that in otherplaces. In Germany, most of the
prayer spaces are hosted byChristian teachers. In fact, the
very first prayer space inGermany was hosted by a 14 year
old student, but we can get onto that if you like. But So
prayer spaces are hosted byChristians, and so we set up
(24:27):
these activities and and theactivities are very human,
letting go of worries, askingbig questions, offering
forgiveness, processing griefand loss, expressing gratitude.
They're all none of this isexclusive to Christianity, nor
is it exclusive to any sort ofreligion, spirituality. These
are fundamentally humanexperiences, and each of the
(24:50):
activities will invite thestudents to express their hope
or their wish or their prayer.
You know, and like I say, Ourexperience is that it's
remarkable how many children,young people, want to pray so
they're hosted, but they're not.
It's a very light touch. It'sit's hospitality in action
rather than teaching. These arelearning experiential places
(25:14):
rather than a teaching spaces.
Now, the remarkable thing is thefeedback that children and young
people express towards the endof their time, and we always try
to make time for this and listencarefully, is extraordinary. You
know, children and young peoplewho describe when I came into
(25:36):
this room, I didn't know if Ibelieved in God or not, but now
I do, and I'm left scratching myhead, going, how did that
happen? You know, there's postit notes, and there's cardboard
hanging on bits of string, andthere's a tent in the corner,
and there's a bowl that you dropstones into over there, and, and
I'm kind of going, Yeah, how didthat happen? And the only
(25:58):
conclusion I can come to Joshuais the Holy Spirit is really
good at this stuff, and the HolySpirit is eager to get started.
I was a pain in the first coupleof prayer spaces. I got to host,
one of which was in mydaughter's school. I was
interrupting every these were,this was a high school. I was
interrupting every student,every active I was buzzing
(26:21):
around like, Oh, do you likethat activity? What did you
write as your big question? Oh,is there anything you'd like to
ask me? You know, this was myfrustrated evangelist in me,
desperate to dive into everyconversation and interrupt. And
it took me, sadly, a couple ofprayer spaces to get the hint
from the Holy Spirit, that it'svery good at this stuff, and
(26:44):
it's like I can take a stepback, you know, I think it was
Henry now on in his book Thewounded healer, who said, he
said something like this, I amafraid that in a few decades,
the church will be accused ofhaving failed at its most basic
task, offering people creativeways to commune with the source
(27:06):
of life. I think I've got thatquote right. I'll say it again.
I am afraid that in a fewdecades, and he wrote this a few
decades ago, the church will beaccused of having failed at its
most basic task, offering peoplecreative ways to commune with
the source of life. I think wethought our most basic task was
(27:28):
something else, ie, dare I sayit, telling people stuff. Now
there, of course, there's aplace for telling, teaching,
preaching, proclaiming. Ofcourse, there is a place for
that. That is a critical part ofhow we communicate the gospel.
But maybe it's not our mostbasic task. Maybe our most basic
(27:49):
task, as Henry now on said, andI would suggest, Jesus
demonstrated, is creatingenvironments, making spaces,
setting up situations wherepeople can bump into the
presence of God and be left withlots of hunger and thirst. It
seems to me, that's the wayJesus functioned with the
(28:09):
crowds. Of course, with hisdisciples, he's unpacking
scripture and he's challengingthings, and he's getting into
the talking. But with thecrowds, he seems to do all sorts
of weird things, you know, if hefeeds them Miraculously, he
slaps mud in someone's eye. Hetells stories that are a little
bit vague, and even hisdisciples don't know what he
(28:32):
means by some of them.
Sometimes, you know, he doesthings. He creates environments
that leave people hungering andthirsting for more such that
they keep following him. Theydon't fully understand who he
is, and he certainly doesn'tpreface all of his parables. Was
just so, you know, just soyou're not confused. I'm the
Messiah, you know. Just, youknow, before we get into
(28:52):
anything else, just a few bulletpoints. You know, he doesn't do
that, and he wanders off beforethey have a chance to answer his
to ask their questions. And so Ithink we're more bothered about
this stuff than Jesus is. Andlet me just just tell you a
couple of stories. And like Isay, there might be a switch off
moment here. I visited a PrimarySchool in East London. About 70%
(29:16):
of the kids in this schoolMuslim so, you know, high Muslim
population local area, and thisschool set up a prayer space in
the in the hall. They set up allsorts of activities around them,
and they clustered them intofour zones, which is generally
works better in a kindergarten.
(29:39):
And so we had a team member oneach zone, just to explain to
the kids what the zones wereabout. I went to visit on the
Friday just to go and check inand see how it was going. And I
went and sat myself at the thankyou the gratitude zone. And they
had a few activities there. Oneof them were involved, just big
sheets of paper on the floorwhere the children were
(29:59):
involved. Invited to write ordraw if they wanted what they
were thankful for, and if theywanted to, they could use this
to express prayer. And so I satthere for this whole day
watching these lovely kids,these beautiful kids, write and
draw their thank yous, and manyof them were prayers. And the
fascinating thing was, a lot ofthe prayers that the Muslim
(30:23):
kids, these Islamic kids wrote,were really affectionate. I love
you, Allah, thank you for lovingme. I feel so safe with you.
Really affectionate, expressiveprayers. Now, you know, I don't
know about you, but I don't knowa great deal about Islam, and at
the end of the day, when the thehead of re came and helped us
(30:44):
pack down and we had a littledebrief session. I said to her,
Look, you know, I'm I'minterested. I'm curious about
some of these prayers. Is thatis, is this how some of these
kids would usually pray? Andshe's like, Oh, no, definitely
not. You know, at the end of theschool day, most of our Muslim
kids would go to the mosque, andthe boys would be taught this,
(31:05):
and the girls would be taughtthat the postures and the
rhythms and the words forprayer, and they certainly
wouldn't use this kind of stuff,and they certainly weren't using
these kinds of words, whichleaves us with a fascinating
question, what's going on now?
Here's, here's my, my thinkingaround this. I think these
(31:27):
little kids are entering a placewhere the Holy Spirit is
present, and they're sensing it,something about that every human
being is made in the image ofGod, made to commune with the
source of life to use, Henry nowand words every one of us,
irrespective of our background,our religious upbringing,
anything like that, there's aspirit within us that wants to
(31:50):
cry. Abba, you know? And I thinkwhat's going on is these kids
are entering this space, andtheir spirit is waking up, is
hungering, thirsting, andthey're simply using the
language that they know, thatdesire is making its way through
their body to their fingertips,you know, and they're drawing on
the language that they know. Andso we're if that's the case,
(32:13):
we're left with this puzzle. IsGod in heaven? Has he got his
fingers in his ears going, la,la, Lila. I'm not listening
until you get my name right, oris God in heaven going, Yeah, I
love you. I really love you. I'mglad you sent something. You
know, I think so many childrenand young people are like the
(32:34):
two disciples on the road toEmmaus that they they spend that
hour in the prayer space,placing stones into bowls of
water and fizzy tablets intojars of water, and writing on
post it notes and bits of tornup cardboard and laying in
silence in a in a in a tent, ina gazebo, or whatever they're
doing, and their hearts arestrangely warmed that they're
(32:56):
experiencing something becauseJesus has drawn alongside them
and and perhaps they don't evenrecognize that it's him at the
end of that lesson. And does itreally matter at that moment? I
don't think so, because ajourney has begun. They will
remember that moment for therest of their life, just just to
give you one example, and thenI'll finish really long answer
(33:19):
to your question. We had abeautiful story just just a few
months ago, from NorthernIreland, a young girl. She's
about 10 years old. I'll callher Ellie. She's really good
runner. She's a really good 5krunner, and she was out for
that's why you like, yeah,absolutely. I zero in on stories
about running. Absolutely. Didyou know Eugene Peterson was a
(33:40):
long distance trail runner. Ilove him to bits already. So
yeah. So Ellie, she was she wasout for a run with her parents,
and they're running alongsidethe coastline, and all of a
sudden, she ducks off the pathdown some steps onto the beach
and down to the shoreline andand grabs a couple of handfuls
of sand and starts to let ittrickle through her fingers. And
(34:00):
her parents, understandably alittle bit puzzled about this.
We were, we were on for a PBhere, you know what you doing.
And so her mom walked upalongside her, and she you okay?
Is everything all right? And shesaid, Oh yeah, Mom, I just
suddenly aware of, I feelworried about lots of things at
the moment, and I remembered anactivity we did in the prayer
(34:23):
space in my school two yearsago, and I realized I just
wanted to feel lighter, so Ithought I'd pray. So these,
these moments, theseexperiences, are carried
viscerally, far more than words.
What we you know we know that weknow that we the things we smell
and taste and touch, you knowand hear, their memories are
attached to those far morestrongly than words, and so I
(34:46):
think that's why Jesus does whathe does so often. He does
things. He doesn't just saythings. He gives he creates
experiences. He creates moments.
For people to encounter, communewith, the source of life. And I
think that's what's happening inthese prayer spaces. So is it
any wonder that those seeds bearfruit later on? The Holy Spirit
(35:11):
is cultivating these seeds farmore than we are. You know, we,
we feel like we. We have tochuck in a few bullet points at
the end, by the way, that wasJesus, and He died for you, and
He rose again, and, you know,and I'm sure Jesus would be
like, going, don't worry, you'llbe all right. Don't worry, we're
cultivating that seed. It'sokay.
Joshua Johnson (35:30):
So what does that look like? I think, for for
me, if I'm if I'm wanting tofacilitate a prayer space in
school help kids interact withthese creative prompts to pray.
My first instinct after that is,I want to figure out how to
companion them after the prayerspace as well. I don't want just
(35:51):
to leave them there. What doescompanioning Then look like for
people after they're they'redone with this prayer space?
Yeah.
Phil Sokell-Miles (35:59):
So here in the UK, we get inquiries all the
time from local churches andfrom schools. Now, schools
contact us direct, saying wewant a prayer space. We've heard
about this prayer space thing,if it's churches, our first
response is always, are youalready in a long term
relationship? Are you datingthis school? You know is
(36:20):
something happening here.
Because, if your intention isjust to run a prayer space for
one week, and in a, as I saidearlier, as a kind of fishing
expedition to try and bolsterthe children's work or the youth
work, please don't do it. Youknow, it's, it's, it lacks
integrity, for a start. Andalso, I just, it's, it may be
damaging, you know, because aprayer space is a place of
(36:42):
safety where children and youngpeople often talk about the
stuff that's going on in theirlives. And if we're kind of
waving goodbye at the end of theweek, see you next year. I just,
I think that lacks integrity. Soour encouragement to churches is
prayer spaces are a reallybrilliant way of accelerating or
or even kick starting, arelationship with school, but,
(37:06):
but it's not the goal. The goalisn't the prayer space. The goal
is this trusting relationship,serving blessing relationship.
And there's all sorts of otherways that you can serve and
bless schools. Prayer spacesjust happen to be really
effective, and perhaps for sucha time as this, more than ever
before with with the well beingneeds, the mental health needs,
(37:28):
the trauma that many childrenand young people are
experiencing, prayer spaces inschools are so valuable, so
needed, a place to be still, aplace to process this stuff a
place to ask spiritualquestions. So they're incredibly
effective, but like any tool inthe wrong hands, they can be
misused. And so we we really tryand encourage church local
(37:53):
Christians, even local teachers.
Don't do this as a one off, butuse it as part of a way of
serving, blessing, encouraging,and so all sorts of things can
can spin off in we've heard ofalpha courses starting in
schools or lunchtime clubs, bigquestion clubs, chaplaincy
(38:14):
programs after school. Clubs inMilwaukee, after doing an
initial prayer space, it'sactually turned into a weekly
thing every Wednesday andThursday. Darnell and some of
the volunteers from from hislocal church are in that school.
The school decided this is sovaluable for the students in
(38:34):
this public school that we willgive you a room. It's on the
corridor next to the sexualeducation stuff, which Darnell
finds very amusing, you know,but there is a room. It's called
the quiet space, and it isavailable every Wednesday and
every Thursday for students tobe referred by the
psychologists, the socialworkers in the school, the
tutors, any student that thiswould be of benefit to off, they
(38:59):
go to this place. And so someprayer spaces have become,
become permanent. I think thatquestion of what's next is
really, really important, and Iwould encourage churches and
schools to consider that beforethey even run their first prayer
space.
Joshua Johnson (39:14):
I know in the United States, I'm like, Hey,
there's something in Milwaukee.
I think that's fantastic,because a lot of people in the
US are going to go, Hey, there'sseparation of church and state
in public schools. You can'treally do anything with
religious education or anything,so prayer spaces is going to be
really hard to do in schools.
(39:34):
But hey, it's happening, andthat's good. So in places, maybe
like the US, or in other placesin the world where you found
where it's not like the UK,where there needs to be some
spiritual education, what workswhen we go in with relationship
with the school, like, how do weget something started when it
(39:56):
doesn't seem an easy path? Yeah,
Phil Sokell-Miles (39:59):
it's a great question. And I think the answer
to that has changed over thelast 567, years. I feel like the
tone of the question has shiftedfrom a sort of, this is really,
this is going to be reallydifficult. I can't see how this
is possible to we really needthis. Let's figure it out. You
(40:19):
know, I think that has that'sshifted. I've noticed even in my
conversations with people in theStates, you know, six, seven
years ago, people were sort ofleaning back, folded arms. This
is very unlikely, because of ourpolitical, cultural, you know,
setting, whereas I'm havingemails, Zoom calls twice a week,
(40:39):
at least with people in theStates, whether that's students
or parents or teachers churchleaders. And I think that's
because the need is great. Andthe interesting thing is,
children and young people seemto be the same the world over.
The education systems aredifferent. Church culture is
(41:00):
obviously different, but whenyou translate the prayers, the
hopes, the fears, the anxieties,the big questions for God,
they're pretty much the same theworld over. And that I find
interesting. There's the sameanxieties and struggles, but
there is also, dare I say it,there's a there's a growing
(41:20):
hunger for church, for Jesus,for faith, for prayer. It's,
it's, and it's not tied to andit's not an interest in
institutional Christianity, butit is an interest in Jesus and
prayer, and something that meanssomething. So I'm very
interested in the States,particularly in what student led
(41:40):
prayer spaces might look like,and we've had quite a few
conversations with students. Idid last weekend, I was on a
call with a 17 year old studentin Portland who is very
interested coming to the 24/7national gathering. Wants to
talk about this, and it wasgreat to be able to say to her
the very first prayer space inGermany was started by a 14 year
(42:01):
old student who came to one ofour conferences. This was in
2012 she came to one of ourconferences with a school
teacher and a youth worker. Theyflew over to London, listened to
all the stories, listened to theseminars, and I sat with her at
the end. Her name's Izzy, andthere's a whole chapter in my
book about her. And I said toher, what do you think? And she
(42:22):
said, I love this, but there'sno way we could do this in my
school. I only know a couple ofother Christians, and I there's
no we can't have outsidevolunteers come and help out.
Four months later, she sent mean email describing the prayer
space that she'd run. It's forher friend in her school. I've
used much of the email verbatimin the book, because it's so
(42:43):
fun. It's just a 14 year old.
Her final line was, it's socool. I now no longer think
anything is impossible for God.
She told this brilliant story. Iknow I'm digressing here, but so
she hosts, you know, shewelcomed her own friends into
the first first hour in thisprayer space. Really
(43:04):
embarrassed, awkward, you know,really outing myself as a
Christian here. And so describethe activities, big questions,
letting go of worries, sayingsorry, all that kind of stuff.
And all of her friends were sortof stood awkwardly as well. And
for the first 10 minutes, theysort of shuffled around and just
looked at things and and Izzywondered if, if anything was
(43:26):
going to happen. And thengradually, they sort of softened
up. And she said, by the end ofthat first hour, there were post
it notes and torn up bits ofcardboard with all sorts of
prayers written on them. And herfriends were saying to her, I
just love this. This is great.
This is I I've always beeninterested in God, but I've
never known where I can askthese questions. You know, she
was just like mind blown by bywhat had changed almost
(43:48):
immediately, and she at the endof her email, she's told this
amazing story where one of theclasses, a teacher, had brought
a class in for the session, andthe students had gone round and
explored, and then he'd takenthem back to another classroom
and done a little bit offeedback with them, and asked
them how they felt and what didthey think. And one of the
questions he asked was, Do anyof you pray regularly, you know,
(44:11):
in your in your daily life, andthere was lots of kind of
laughter, and, you know, nobodyprays. And then this one boy, I
think he was a 1314, year oldboy, stuck his hand up and said,
I pray the Lord's prayer everynight. And some of his friends
were looking at him. Are youcrazy? You pray the Lord's
Prayer. I bet you don't know it.
(44:33):
Do you know it? Go and do itnow, at which point this boy got
out of his chin, stood up infront of all of his friends and
started to pray out loud, theLord's Prayer, and the laughter
just immediately fell tosilence, and they listened as he
recited the Lord's Prayer. Andas he finished, the whole class
erupted in applause. It was aholy moment, you know, and there
(44:57):
are just loads of remind.
Remarkable moment stories likethis. So in answer your
question, I think, I think itwill be really interesting in
the States in particular, whatstudent led prayer spaces look
like. We have heard some littlestories. Pockets of people that
are doing lunchtime clubs andusing a few prayer activities
haven't got use of a whole roomfor a whole week. But why not
(45:20):
just get a couple of activitiesout in a lunchtime club? We
heard a story from a good, goodfriend in Kansas City was
invited by a Christian school toset up a prayer space for the
teachers. You know, teachers arestressed under a lot of
pressure, and so that's whatthey did. They went to serve
this school by setting up, justfor one day, a whole load of
(45:41):
prayer activities, and some ofthe volunteers from the church
were there too to offer prayerfor the teachers if they wanted
that. What was reallyinteresting was some teachers
from other schools came tovisit. And in particular, there
were a handful of teachers frompublic schools who were looking
at the activities and speakingto Katie, who's organizing and
saying, We love this. We reallyneed to figure out how to do
(46:04):
this in our schools. And I thinkthat's the interesting thing. Is
the prayer space model, when,when teachers see it, when when
pupils see it, they're like, Oh,this isn't what I thought it was
going to be, and we really needthis. So we need to figure out
how, where the door to prizeopen, you know? And that's,
(46:28):
that's the key in every nation.
That's what I find. I'm lookingfor, is teachers. I've got, I'm
kind of going look, here's avideo, here's some stories. I
know that you're going to thinkthis is going to be valuable for
your student. It's notproselytizing, we're not
coercing, we're serving. We'reblessing at a cultural moment
(46:50):
where kids need a space toprocess what's going on in their
lives, and they need a safeplace to ask their questions
about faith and prayer. Thiswill do that. You guys need to
figure out how, what's thelanguage that we need to what
are the doors?
Joshua Johnson (47:05):
I think that's really good and helpful. I want
to know how this approach inthere and prayer spaces, kinds
of shifts and changes the way wedo youth work and youth
ministry,
Phil Sokell-Miles (47:18):
yeah, and that's a great question for all
the youth workers out there.
Yeah, I just, I think we've beenlocked into a model that has
served its time, maybe where wedo everything from the front we
do unto young people and I, andI just wonder if there, there's
a time coming, and is now herewhere we trust the work of the
(47:42):
Holy Spirit. You know, I as a 15year old in in school, that was
my kind of coming to faithmoment. I've been part of church
for a very long time, but I justlived a double life, like a lot
of kids do, I think, you know,and it was as a 15 year old,
there was a moment of reckoning.
It happened between me and Godin my bedroom. And and I
(48:03):
realized it's either it's all ornothing, really. And, and I went
back into my school absolutelydetermined, I want to live for
Jesus, but I'm going to needsome friends. And God gave me
some Christian friends at thetime. And we we started praying
before school every day, and wedid crazy things. We went out
and talked to people out in theplayground and field outside,
(48:24):
and we did a march for Jesus.
This is old school properly, youknow, with with a guitar and all
that sort of stuff. And we led alot of our friends to Jesus. And
I think we saw about 150students come to faith during
that couple of years. And and I,I just know this stuff works.
You know, Holy Spirit can betrusted. And we, we perhaps need
to take a step back and and justtry and get a sense of what is
(48:49):
the Lord doing, and join in withthat, rather than try and
control it. It's that. It's howI felt on that first day. We
need to steward this and notmess it up. We are so good at
labeling things and trying tocontrol things and and the Holy
Spirit tolerates that for awhile. And then I think the Holy
Spirit kind of goes, I don'twant to play anymore. I'm going
(49:09):
to go and do something else.
Yeah, this isn't doesn't feelalive anymore. And so I think, I
think we're in a moment when theHoly Spirit is doing something.
There's the breath of God.
There's something happeningright now, and so we just need
to honor, you know, to honor theHoly Spirit and make a lot of
space for that. And I, I do. I'mattracted to creative things
(49:30):
because I things that are lesstethered to words sometimes seem
to have a little bit more lifeto them.
Joshua Johnson (49:39):
What hope do you have for sticky note prayers and
what's an invitation for peoplewhen it comes to prayer spaces
for schools?
Phil Sokell-Miles (49:45):
Do you know what? I loved writing this book,
but because I loved capturingthe stories, I spent months and
months phoning people, havingzoom calls with people, coffee
conversations with people,basically going I've been
retelling your stories for.
Years, can I just check that I'mstill telling true versions of
and it was wonderful for mebecause I got to hear loads of
(50:05):
stuff that I'd completelyforgotten and I didn't know
about. And so this book is fullof stories. It's stories from
start to finish, as you canprobably tell from this
conversation, Josh, I juststories are what bring me to
life. You know, he's just soobsessed with bullet pointing
things. I just think stories arethe way forward. Anyway, the
(50:27):
book is full of stories. It'salso draws on some research that
we did. We realized that wedidn't really understand what
was going on in prayer spaces inschools, and we needed some
clever people to help us withthat. So I went to meet a
professor at York St JohnUniversity. I was fairly
intimidated. His name was JulianStern. What a name. Hey, for a
(50:47):
professor, I would think I wasworried meeting him just because
of his name, but he was a lovelyguy, and he spent a year
researching the impact thatprayer spaces were having on
children's and young people'sspirituality. And so a big chunk
of the book is really basedaround the research he did,
which has really informed oursort of philosophy, our theology
(51:10):
of prayer spaces in school. So alot of that is in the book
illustrated by stories. Thereare. There's a few really mad
miracle stories in there,Joshua, which I don't, I
generally don't tell because Ithink we can be really
distracted by miracles. You knowa 10 year old, nine year old boy
that writes on a post it noteabout the the rash on his skin,
(51:31):
that it really upsets him, andthen within an hour, the rash is
gone. Nobody lays hands on him.
Nobody has prayed for him.
Nobody's given him a in the nameof Jesus, prayer to pray, but
he's written something. I don'teven know what he wrote in that
post it note, but, and we'vefact checked and verified these
stories. I I prayed an utterlyfaithless example, prayer to a
(51:54):
teenage girl in a prayer space.
She was clearly uncomfortableabout the prayer space she'd
visited, and didn't want to goand do any of the activities,
and she was standing next to meon crutches, and I said to her,
Look, what have you done to yourfoot? And she said a horse had
trodden on it and broken themetatarsal in her foot.
(52:17):
Apparently, ballet dancers andfootballers break these bones
regularly, and people who gettrodden on by horses. And so I,
you know, sensing herdiscomfort, I just said, Look, I
could pray for you and I gohome, if you like. And she's
like, that's a bit weird. Isaid, No, prayer is really
simple, and here I'm beingreally honest with you. All I
wanted her to do was to hear aChristian pray a prayer that
(52:39):
wasn't weird. And so I just did,hey, Chrissy, it just be like
this, dear God, you know thatChrissy is in pain. You know
about that broken metatarsal? Bereally cool if you fixed it,
because a Chrissy wouldn't be inpain anymore, and also she'd
know that you're reallyinterested in her, amen. And she
sort of, I My eyes were open. Iwas looking at her as I said
(53:02):
those words. It was a faithlessprayer. And she sort of looked
at me and laughed, and herfriends laughed and went, Oh, if
that's a prayer, yeah, you canpray for me. And I laughed and
went, Well, I kind of just did,let's leave it at that. That was
the Thursday. On the Mondaymorning, I got a call from the
head of our head of PE physicaleducation who was organizing the
(53:23):
prayer space. She was aChristian, and she left me a
voicemail saying, Phil, did youpray for a girl called Chrissy?
Because she all the pain went ofher and her foot that night, and
her parents were really puzzled,and so they took her to the
hospital for a scan, and theyhad a second scan, comparing it
to the first scan, there was abroken metatarsal in the first
(53:43):
one, and there wasn't in thesecond one. And so she's jumping
around saying, I've experienceda miracle. So there are stories
like that in the book, but thereare also loads of miracles that
I think are more important, andthey're the ones where a child
or a young person entered aprayer space hating themselves
and left loving themselves.
Those are the daily miraclesthat I think will last a lot
(54:04):
longer. So the book's full ofthat. And my hope is that
people, whether they arestudents or parents or teachers,
read it and think there must bea way for me to do this where I
am. There's got to be a way todo this and and I would love to
have conversations with anyoneto help them.
Joshua Johnson (54:24):
Well, Phil, I have a couple quick questions
here at the end. One, if you goback to your 21 year old self,
what advice would you give
Phil Sokell-Miles (54:31):
I was really earnest about a lot of things. I
knew everything as a 21 yearold, and I'm embarrassed now
about some of the things that Idogmatically believed and
proclaimed, I think I would sayto my 21 year old self, spend
more time listening to peopleand to God. There's a lot more
(54:53):
to hear if you listen carefully.
My middle daughter is profoundlydeaf. Half, and she can't hear
anything at all, but she wasfitted with cochlear implants.
They're in the miracle oftechnology. When she had her
first one, when she was two anda half, and we went to a
specialist Hearing Center, andthe manager there, I'm cutting a
(55:16):
long story short here, but themanager said to us, she can hear
now with these cochlearimplants, she just needs to
learn how to listen. And I Ifeel like there's a profound
life lesson there certainly aprayer lesson. We hear loads of
stuff all the time. We are wehave these mobile phone things,
and it just churns out stuff allthe time. We're not very good at
(55:37):
listening. And I wish I'dlearned to listen earlier.
Joshua Johnson (55:42):
Yeah, it's good.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately you could
recommend.
Phil Sokell-Miles (55:46):
Or I'm reading Tyler staton's book,
praying like monks, living likefools, which I absolutely love,
so I would definitely recommendthat. And I'm also reading a
book by Christine westoff calledabout the voice of God, which is
all about learning to listen toGod's voice. So I definitely
recommend those
Joshua Johnson (56:05):
good recommendations. Sticking out
prayers is fantastic. You saidit. There's lots of stories.
It's inspirational. It's fun,and man, so incredible. What God
is doing all around the worldthrough prayer spaces in
schools. It is incredible. So Ireally want people to go and get
this book. It is available. Howcan people get the book? And
(56:29):
where can they connect with you?
If they're interested in prayerspaces, how can they connect?
Phil Sokell-Miles (56:33):
Thank you. As far as I'm aware, it's so it's
out on the ninth of October.
It's on Amazon. You can get itfrom there. I think it's also
being stocked in Barnes andNoble so there in the States, is
a great place to go and get yourbooks. You can connect with me
at my email address, which isPhil. At prayer spaces in
schools.com, surprise, surprise.
(56:56):
And the website, www, dot prayerspaces in schools.com. Has loads
of kind of basic informationabout what prayer spaces are and
how they function, andconnections then to our national
coordinators around the world.
Joshua Johnson (57:10):
Perfect. Well, Phil, thank you for this
conversation. Thank you forsharing story after story of
what God is doing in prayerspaces and how God has worked in
your own heart, in your own lifethrough prayer connection with
him. And you know, if we couldjust set up some ways, creative
ways, so that we can communewith the source of life, that is
(57:32):
what we need to do. And so,yeah, thank you for helping us
get to a place where we canconnect with God in deeper ways.
So thank you. Thank you. You.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.