October 28, 2025 • 55 mins
Fr. Ronald Rolheiser joins me to talk about his new book Insane for the Light, the final part of his spiritual trilogy that began with The Holy Longing and Sacred Fire. Together, we explore what it means to live faithfully through every stage of life from getting our lives together, to giving them away, to finally giving our deaths away. Fr. Rolheiser shares profound insights on the difference between resignation and surrender, how helplessness can become holiness, and why love is sustained not by emotion but by fidelity and presence. We talk about aging as a spiritual practice, the call to move from bitterness to gratitude, and the deep grace found in letting go. This is a conversation about surrendering in love, learning to live with open hands, and allowing the light of God to shine through us, even as everything else fades.
Ronald Rolheiser, O.M.I., is President-Emeritus of the Oblate School of Theology in San Antonio Texas, where he remains a full-time faculty member and Professor of Spirituality. In 1982, he began writing a column “In Exile” which is carried in Catholic newspapers worldwide. He is the author of many award-winning books including The Holy Longing and Sacred Fire, and his newest book Insane for the Light releases in 2025.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ronald Rolheiser (00:00):
You know, I'm struck by the verb that they use
(00:03):
when Jesus died in Mark'sgospel, Mark says, Then he bowed
his head and he gave over hisspirit. Surrender is different
in resignation. See, resignationof the spirit. The bully has you
penned, and finally you say, Igive up. See, that's not
surrender. Surrender is you'regiving it over in love.
Joshua Johnson (00:34):
Hello and welcome to the shift in culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact wecould make. We long to see the
body of Christ look like Jesus.
I'm your host. Joshua Johnson,few spiritual writers have
traced the human journey with asmuch honesty and depth as
father, Ronald rohlheiser, histrilogy The Holy longing, sacred
fire and now insane for thelight, maps the movement from
(00:57):
getting our lives together, togiving them away, to finally
giving our deaths away. In thisconversation, we explore how
faith matures with time, how theenergy of youth gives way to the
wisdom of surrender, and howhelplessness can become his own
form of grace. Father rohlheisertalks about the difference
(01:18):
between resignation andsurrender, about showing up when
we feel nothing, and about howlove is sustained not by emotion
but by presence. We also talkabout how aging as a spiritual
practice is moving frombitterness to gratitude, control
to trust and learning to growtransparent until the light
shines through. So join us for aconversation about fidelity,
(01:41):
surrender and the beauty of afaith that holds even when all
our images of God fall away.
Here is my conversation withFather, Ronald rohlheiser.
Father Ronald rohlheiser,welcome to shifting culture.
It's an honor to have you onthank you for joining me.
Ronald Rolheiser (01:59):
Thank you, Josh, it's a pleasure being with
you. Okay, your
Joshua Johnson (02:03):
new book that's coming out in same for the
light, it's a spiritual journeyfor our wisdom years. It's the
third of your trilogy thatstarted with the holy longing,
sacred fire. And now here, insame for the light, can you take
us on a little bit of thejourney of, let's go back holy
longing and sacred fire. Andwhat are these, the arc of the
(02:27):
human journey? What does it looklike? And what are these
struggles?
Ronald Rolheiser (02:32):
Yeah, well, let's begin this way. You know,
like in Christian spirituality,we haven't, you know, sorted out
so much like that. You know thatthis is spirituality for Sunday
school. This is for adults, thisis for retired people and so on.
And notice you don't see that inJesus. Jesus just has a set of
teachings. But the difference isthis, we hear them in different
(02:53):
times of our lives. It's onething to hear a parable when
you're seven years old, anotherthing there when you're 17, when
you're 37 and you're 77 youknow, and that's why we need to
break this down. The structure Iuse actually comes to the great
Christian mystics, and it'sspiritual structure. It's also
psychological oranthropological, they'll say.
(03:15):
And this makes perfect sense.
You have three great strugglesin your life. The first one to
struggle to get your lifetogether. You know, from the
time you're born till you landin your 20s, sometimes you know
who are you, and how do you getyour life together? But then you
have about 50 years, generativeyears, I call them. You know
where you're in that right now,where your struggle is to give
your life away. You know, at ourage, the biggest struggle
(03:38):
shouldn't be, who am I? And howdo I find myself? And how do I
serve better, and so on. Butusually Christian spirituality,
popular spirituality, endedthere, then you're expected to
die, but you need another one,and that is, how do you live
your old age in such a way thatthese have a different kind of
generativity. In fact, the imageI use is this, you have Abraham
(04:01):
and Sarah. And this is anincredible story. They said,
when Abraham was 80 and she was70, God said, I want you to set
off to a distant country, andwhen you get there, she's going
to become pregnant. So they do.
It took 20 years. Now, when he's100 she's 90, they have Isaac,
you know. So we always say,like, like, what's going to be
(04:23):
your post menopausal pregnancy?
Like, like, like, today, a lotof people are retiring 65 and
they're going to live healthilyfor 20 or 25 years. What are
those years for? And then also,the concept they use in the book
is the same as right now, you'retrying to give your life away
through service in those latteryears, you got to give your
death away. Your death as Henrynow and you say, it's your it's
(04:44):
the last greatest gift you maketo your to your community. So
the books are the holy longingis basically how to get your
life together, sacred fires, howdo you give your life away? And
this book is, how do you giveyour death away? What's the
spirituality for. Retirement andpost retirement.
Joshua Johnson (05:01):
So as we walk through these struggles and
these journeys, you're going tosuffer, you're going to have
difficulties. As I'm in thistime of service and giving my
life away, I'm also goingthrough darkness and suffering
and times where I feel like Ican't I don't have anything in
(05:23):
me to give away. God is obscureto me. What happens? How do we
walk through those struggles andbe attached to divine love in
the midst of our suffering?
Ronald Rolheiser (05:36):
Couple of things there, you actually put
your finger on something that'svery important. You know, I
think that in Christianspirituality, we haven't been
able to tease that out well forpeople. So, you know, you know,
we can talk about later withjust like, dark nights or
something, but if you say, like,what's what? What's the meaning
of the suffering, you know,well, first of all, and this is
part of what I have in this lastbook, sometimes when you're
(06:00):
helpless when you have nothingto give, that's when you have
the most to give. Let me use theexample I use of Jesus, you
know. And I don't think we'veever teased that out properly,
you know. But you know, likewhen we talk about Christ's
passion, the Passion of Jesus,Christ, we normally think of his
sufferings, you know, and thepilot and the whips and so on.
(06:23):
But that partly misses thepoint. If you know, passion here
comes from the word Passio meanspassivity. If he said, This is
the passivity of Jesus Christ,like, for instance, if you read
the passivity of Jesus Christaccording to Matthew or mark and
so on, and the rest of the timeyou could talk about the
activity. You know, when youlook at all four gospels, you'll
(06:45):
notice this up until Jesus isarrested and they bind Him and
walk him away. He is the active.
Notice he's teaching, preaching,doing miracles, doing all this
stuff and so on. And after he'sarrested, he doesn't do anything
anymore. Everything is done tohim so he becomes passive. You
know, they lead him away. Theybind him. They put him on trial.
(07:05):
Pilate carries his cross.
They'll cross. Now this is theinteresting thing. We believe we
are saved more by his passivitythan his activity. We are saved
through what Jesus taught us,but we're saved preeminently by
his dying for us and so on. Andnow that isn't just some
theological mystery, it is, butyou know like like, for
(07:27):
instance, in our helplessness,in your passivity, sometimes you
can, you can give more than youcan in your activity. A friend
of mine, this woman tells astory, said her father was an
alcoholic, and he said hisalcoholism completely destroyed
our family. So by the time hedied, said we were five
siblings. We couldn't live inthe same house to the same city
(07:49):
with each other. So then mymother, for years, tried to
reconcile us. She'd bring ustogether at Thanksgiving and do
stuff, said, and it didn't work.
Said. Then my mother died ofcancer, and during the last week
of her life, she was unconsciousin hospice since and the family
gathered around her, you knowwhat happened? They reconciled.
When she was unconscious andcouldn't do anything, she was
(08:12):
able to what she couldn't do inher activity. That's true of
Jesus. You know, Jesus tried forthree and a half years to get
his message costs, and theydidn't get it. He died, and they
got it. That's a great mystery.
That's a great mystery. And sowhen, when you're in your
generative years, and you'restruggling, you're struggling
with faith, with tiredness, withthis and that and so on. And I,
(08:35):
I teased that out in the bookthe sacred fire that you know
those generative years, they'regoing to be long. Fact, John of
the Cross, the great mystic,says, you know, it's going to be
the biggest problem in yourprayer for about 30 years of
your life. He said, flat outboredom, like basically, and you
expect that. He said, Because atthat age, that the deeper things
(08:56):
are happening under the surface.
You know, when you're in fervor,when you first convert, and
you're walking on water and soon. It's all you know that, but
that's a honeymoon that onlylasts. You come home from a
honeymoon, then you have 30 or40 or 50 years where a heat
exchange that verb. You're kindof grinding it out, but you're
not grinding out because what'shappening is deeper. Things are
happening under the surface, youknow, on a honeymoon, stuff
(09:21):
happens on a surface that andthen also your helplessness,
when you're tired and down andout and you want to quit and you
show up, maybe that tiredness isgoing to color your work in such
a way that it's much deeper andmore powerful. Or, I'm sure,
Joshua, you ever gone to afuneral, a tragic thing, and you
have nothing to say, and youjust hug the person you're
(09:44):
sharing your helplessness that'sthe most powerful thing you can
do. You know, you say a fewwords, but they're completely
unhelpful. Basically, yourhelplessness is what speaks and
what heals you. So Jesus, in hishelplessness, was able to do
something for us that hecouldn't do when he was the
great helper. It's interestingto say in Mark's gospel, all the
(10:07):
verbs about Jesus in Greek,before he's arrested are active.
He taught, he walked, he did.
And after he's arrested, they'reall passive. They bound him,
they let him away, discouragedhim, they questioned him.
Passivity and helplessness.
That's a big part of that last
Joshua Johnson (10:27):
book, that passivity and the helplessness.
If you're talking about theboredom, Johnson Cross says
you're praying, it's gonna beboredom during this time, it
feels like there's, there'sgenerative things to do. But if
you say something like deeperunderneath, like the things that
are happening are reallyunderneath the surface, is that
(10:50):
the passivity that's happeningunder the surface while you're
being generative in your life,what is going on there that is
actually forming us into this,this creature that looks more
like Jesus,
Ronald Rolheiser (11:04):
okay, that's part of it, but let me give you
the example that I use withstudents in class. You know. So
imagine this, okay, imagine yourmother is in assisted living,
okay? And you are the dutifulson, and you happen to be living
five miles away, and so it fallson you. And five or six nights a
(11:24):
week, you go and spend an hourwith your mother. She's eating
her dinner and so on. Spend sometime with her. And you do this
day in, day out, year in, yearout. How many times during the
course of a year do you thinkyou'll have an exciting,
interesting conversation withyour mother once or twice, and
the other times you're talkingabout the weather, the sports
team, the politics and you know.
And sometimes while you're she'seating, you fall asleep for 15
(11:48):
minutes, you wake up and so on.
Now contrast that you have asister and she is conveniently
living in Alaska, okay? So shedoes not become five nights. So
she comes once a year for acouple days, and her and your
mother are having conversations.
They're crying and hugging eachother. You want to kill them
both. Okay, now it's what yoursister has. Is that deeper than
(12:12):
what you have? No that's fervor,you know, see, when your mother
dies, you're going to be closerto her than anybody. Because you
know the words have been spoken,then presence, presence is
everything. You are with her,and if you fall asleep, that's
okay too. You know tres of lezu,the saying she wants that.
(12:33):
Somebody asked her, is it wrongto fall asleep when you pray?
And she said, No. Said a littlechild is equally pleasing to her
parents, awake or asleep, maybemore asleep. No, your mother
lost. You're tired, you'rethere. You know, see, so that
during these generative years,that's the thing. Your task is
to show up for prayer, forservice, for family. So on, day
(12:57):
in, day out, it isn't alwaysexciting on the surface. That
fidelity, you know, that's theessence of contemplative prayer.
We another example I often useon a marriage homily from
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the greatLutheran and martyr. You know,
he was a priest, and when hemarried people, he'd almost tell
(13:18):
them. He said today, you'reyoung and you're in love, and
you think your love will sustainyour marriage, but it can't. But
your marriage can sustain yourlove. See, see, see, your fervor
isn't going to sustain yourprayer, it isn't going to
sustain you know, but, but yourcommitment can sustain that you
know. See, you stay in amarriage, or you stay in a
(13:40):
church, or you stay in serviceon the basis of commitment.
You're going to visit yourmother five nights a week and so
on. See then your emotions, theymove in, they move out. Some
Sundays, you're better inchurch. Other Sundays, you're
looking at your wrist watch andso on. It doesn't matter. You
know, you're there, you'rethere. The basic, ultimate rule
for prayer is simply show up.
Joshua Johnson (14:04):
Show up. So it feels like, if it's a show up,
it's, it's about presence andbeing with more than the
whatever the activity is. Butit's, it's the the presence of
of God with us, even if we don'thave that emotional high before
or even if we don't feel hispresence, but the actual like
(14:25):
with ness of God,
Ronald Rolheiser (14:27):
see, love is sustained through a commitment.
So give me an example. So youtake a married couple, okay? And
they have a little ritualpractice. So every morning,
before they leave for work, theykiss each other and say, I love
you, okay, some mornings,emotionally, they don't mean
that, no, but actually, deeperdown, they do mean that. That's
(14:48):
where they're staying together.
See, see, that separates youremotions from the depth and
faith. So faith is, you know,some days you show up for
church. You don't want to bethere. So, you know, but, but,
yes, you do at a deeper. Level.
At a deeper level, you know thatthat's, you know, I give you a
colorful story, you know,remember, you know that the
writer, Annie Lamotte, yeah,Annie Lamotte, you know, right
(15:11):
out of San Francisco and but shetells the story, I love this her
color. She says her son, Samuel,said, I raised this kid. I
virtually raised him at church,said, and then he said, he gets
to be 1314, he comes one Sunday,and he says, I don't want to go
to church anymore. And she says,why not? I don't find it
meaningful. So you know what shesaid to him? She said, I
(15:33):
couldn't give a shit whether youfind it meaningful or not. She
says, that's a kid's answer.
Said it doesn't have to bemeaningful to you, it's
meaningful in itself. So it'slike visiting your grandmother,
you know, visit your grandmotherbecause it's meaningful to you.
It's meaningful. That's what youdo. You know, and I like that.
You know, like you don't go tochurch every Sunday because it's
meaningful to you. You go tochurch because it's meaningful.
(15:55):
You don't show up to pray everyday because it's meaningful to
you. It's meaningful. Thesethings mean something beyond
you. And like you said, justpresence showing up, visiting
your mother, you know, you know,or the ritual a couple of
kisses, I love you. Some daysthey want to kill each other,
you know, no but deeper down,they love each other, you know.
(16:15):
See, in that sense, that's whatbonhomme meant when he said, The
ritual will hold you the ritualwill keep you in love. Love will
keep you inside of a marriage. Amarriage will keep you inside of
love.
Joshua Johnson (16:31):
I mean, it's good. A couple of weeks ago, as
we were sitting around having aconversation, my wife said, I
have the spiritual gift ofshowing up, and that people that
were there were like, you haveso much more than just showing
up. And she wasn't actually,like denigrating herself. It's,
it's what she she commits, andshe shows up and she's there and
(16:54):
she's present. And I think whatyou just said will encourage her
that it is a spiritual gift toshow up. It is the commitment to
be there, day in and day out asa Hey. It is meaningful, even if
you're not finding meaning andpurpose at the moment when you
show up. This is what God hascalled us to, to give our lives
away through service.
Ronald Rolheiser (17:15):
That's the ultimate spiritual gift,
fidelity, you know. And youknow, when Martin Luther King
was being buried, I was a youngseminar. Seminarian, and I
remember a statement. They wereinterviewing some people, and
they said to this old blackfellow, they said, What does it
mean to you? Said he was afaithful man. He said he
believed in us when we didn'tbelieve in ourselves. He said,
(17:37):
You know, like he always showedup, basically, you know, that's
fidelity. He was a faithful man.
You know, notice faithful andfull of faith. It's the same
word faithful you show up.
That's the deep faith commitmentunderneath your emotions go up
and down and up and down. Also,people, if you're only going to
pray when you feel like it,you're not going to pray very
(17:59):
often. You pray when it's timeto pray
Joshua Johnson (18:01):
as we move out of that service time and then
move into our wisdom years andand you distinguish between the
elderly and becoming an elder.
What makes that difference aswe're moving into our wisdom
years?
Ronald Rolheiser (18:18):
Well, you know, it's interesting that you
should ask. You know, inChristianity, and that's not a
disparaging remark, Chris, we'venever really developed a program
or spirituality for our lateryears, and the reason we didn't
is because we didn't need it.
People used to die young. Youwouldn't believe this 100 years
ago, or 105 years ago, in 1919,the average age for an American
(18:40):
was 49 so so if you're dying byage 50, you don't need much of a
developed spiritual today, it's76 for men and about 86 for
women. So we need to developthis. But then also, there are
stages. We have a program here.
We call it forest dwelling.
Okay, we stole the title fromHinduism. In Hinduism, they said
(19:03):
there's a stage betweenretirement and becoming a true
elder, and they call it forestdwelling. So it's almost like,
you know, when you finished highschool, you went to college to
prepare for life. They said, No,when you retire, you should go
back to college. You should havesome years to get ready so that
you enter in our program. We'dsay, Joshua, we want to work
(19:25):
with you now. Right now, you'retransitioning. You're
transitioning from a certainkind of generativity to work
you've done for 40 years. How doyou become the holy old beggar?
How do you become the Christianmartyr and so on when nobody
wants to kill you. So see, sothat, so that it's, it's an
interim stage where you see,like you have to learn what,
(19:46):
what am I being called to, likeAbraham and Sarah, what's going
to be your Isaac? What Isaac areyou going to give birth to when
you when you're 7580 and 90years old? You know? See, right?
Know Your generativity isclearer. You're a married man,
you have kids, you're doing ajob, you're paying a mortgage
and so on. That's good. That allends at a certain point, and
(20:07):
then you might live another 25years. So what are they for? See
you you're not when you retireat 65 or 70, you're still not an
elder. You're you know, it'sbasically, how do you become
that holy old fool, the holy oldbeggar? How do you, or how do
you enter into Christ's passionthat your passivity, your
(20:28):
diminishment in old age, that'sgoing to be a great gift to the
world. So how do we
Joshua Johnson (20:37):
Yeah, what's the path for two year
Ronald Rolheiser (20:39):
program for that, you know, there's certain
things to it, you know, like,let me just list this to few,
and I can list them asprinciples. They're not that
that like, for instance, I havesix movements. I said one of the
movements you have to move frombitterness and anger to
gratitude, from bitterness andanger to gratitude. You know,
(21:02):
Morris, West Australia,novelist. He wrote an
autobiography, which youpublished when you're 75 years
old. It's a great little book.
You know, these are the firstwords of the book. He said, When
you get to be 75 there shouldonly be three phrases left in
your vocabulary. Thank you.
Thank you, and thank you. Ifthat isn't your down to then you
have a lot of inner work to do.
See, as we go through our youth,and you pick up some scars and
(21:26):
unfairness and all kinds ofstuff, and it's so easy to age
into a bitter, angry old man orold woman and so on. So that our
first task is you got to movetowards gratitude, where, when
you're 75 and you write yourautobiography, you would say,
(21:46):
thank you, thank you. Thank you.
You know, you know, it'sinteresting when you look at the
four Eucharistic words of Jesusand receive, give thanks. Break
and share. He doesn't sayreceive, break and share. You
know, like real love has to comeout of gratitude. Or one of the
stories we use this and maybereaders have read that you ever
(22:07):
in 1997 Frankie McCourt, UnitedStates American, wrote this
famous book, Angela's Ashes, inwhich he, you know, it's a
brilliant book. It's funny, buta book with a lot of lamenting,
you know, poor me and this andthat and so on and well, Andrew
Greeley, other sixth generationIrishman, he wrote a review on
that for Commonweal, and it wasa very good review. He said,
(22:30):
Stop with the whining. But whenhe ended the review by saying
this, said, Frank. He said, Youand I are both men now at 70
years old, said we're soon tofish our maker. Both have died
since, so I'll give you someadvice. Said, before you die, I
said, forgive your father forhis alcoholism, forgive your
mother that she couldn't protectyou, forgive the poverty that
(22:52):
you grew up in. He said, toforgive yourself for becoming an
alcoholic and ruining twomarriages. He said, then forgive
God, because life isn't fair, hesaid, so that you don't die an
angry, bitter person. He said,because that's the only moral
imperative there is. That's agood line. We always tell
people, when you get a littleolder, you CAN SLIM your
spiritual vocabulary down to twowords, gratitude and
(23:14):
forgiveness. You don't want toexit the planet bitter, angry,
because, you know, we'resupposed to be at a backward
table with everybody. A friendof mine, a theologian, I love
this expression. He says, Theheavenly backward table is open
to everyone who's willing to sitdown with everyone. So if I die
and I can't be a table withthese other 10 people, he can't
(23:36):
have separate tables in heaven.
You know, otherwise you haveEarth. The biggest thing is, you
know, spiritually is to let goof anger, of bitterness and so
on. We don't get angry when weget old. I was once at a
psychiatrist conference, andsomeone asked a psychiatrist, I
said, how come so many peopleget angry when they get old?
Never happens. Sit up in 40years, it never happens. I think
(23:58):
what you're talking about is anangry person getting old. See,
the anger is always in there. Itjust comes out in spades. You
know? The next one is also, aswe get older, certain things
that you get you're moremarginalized culturally. You're
more marginalized in terms ofpower. Oftentimes there's
physical stuff, physicaldisabilities and so on, that
(24:21):
that beset you, okay, and so on.
Like to handle those in such away that they deepen and mellow
your soul rather than than makeyour soul bitter. James Hillman
has a great image. He has a bookon aging, and he says, starts
the book. He says, Why does Godor nature design life in this
(24:43):
way that just when you get tothe peak of your mental powers,
your body starts breaking down,you're in your 70s and so on,
and now that's the peak of yourpowers. And then you're seeing a
doctor every day, you know? Andhe has a great image. He said,
You know why? He. Said, the bestwines have to be aged and
cracked old barrels. He said,That's mellowing your soul. See,
(25:09):
in the same even right now, likeyou said to anyone you're tired,
that's mellowing your soul. Infact, you know, I'm in my late
70s, and one of my mentors, youknow, like and I used to be
president of a school and ourgeneral counsel in Rome and and
now I have no power to wheneverI sit to myself, like, let it
go. Let it go. Let it go. It'sjust basically, you know, you're
(25:32):
no longer there. You got toaccept that, you know, like, you
become more marginalized. You'restepping away, you know. And the
same with physical ailments andso on. You know when, when
you're in assisted living, youknow something, it's it's a
great way. Put it this way, whenJesus become like little
children, you can enter thekingdom of heaven. He wasn't
(25:52):
talking about the innocence of achild, which you can't imitate.
He's talking about thehelplessness. When you're in
assisted living, you'rehelpless. You're a child. You
die, you go straight to heaven.
You know, you know, you have noillusion of self sufficiency.
Again, with the story, like Iwas doing the story a priest
friend of mine, I went to thefuneral of his dad. And his dad
died at age 90, you know, and hehad been a strong man, very
(26:17):
successful, you know, in highschool, the captain football
team, everything. And then hevery successful. Raised a big
family, big company, very alwaysin charge of everything. And he
died at age 90. So his son, whowas a priest, was preaching at
the funeral, and he said, Well,he said, Here lies our dad died
(26:38):
at age 90, and scripture says 70is the sum of a man's ears. 80
for those who are strong. Hesaid, No, he left the extra 20
years. Why is it no accident? Hesaid, It took God another 20
years to mellow him out. Said hewas too cantankerous and strong,
did I at 70 or 80? Said, but thelast years of his life were
(26:58):
years of massive diminishment.
His wife died, broke his heart,then he had a stroke. He needed
a walker, and then he hadanother stroke, and then he was
bedridden. Said, by the time hedied, he said he could take your
hand and say, help me. Hecouldn't say that since he was
seven years old, like he said,said now he said, When he got to
(27:19):
the other side, he just said,help me. Said, 10 years ago they
told Saint Peter, let me tellyou how to run this place.
There's a lot of improvementsyou should be making here. You
know, you know what John of theCross calls the dark night of
the Spirit. You know, like thewell, he said you can enter that
proactively, but mostly it'sgoing to be done to us. You know
(27:39):
what he's that's, that's whatthe dark night spirit looks
like, diminishment so on. Andsee it our task. When that
happens, we can become bitterand angry, or we can let it
mellow our soul.
Joshua Johnson (27:52):
I think that's, that's beautiful. And you say
you write in your book, to growold is to grow transparent until
the light shines through. Andthat feels like that mellowing
journey, the journey of lettinggo and surrendering, feels like,
Oh, I could be transparent. Isthere a way to structure or to
(28:13):
include elders in communities,faith communities, so that the
wisdom of elders as the light isshining through. Can we can
start early with gratitude andforgiveness and letting go while
we're still being generative andfull of service? How can we
(28:36):
incorporate elders, not put themto the side, but have them
integral to the life of a faithcommunity.
Ronald Rolheiser (28:46):
Well, you put your finger on something
important, that's what should behappening. Sadly, our culture is
moving the opposite direction,where we isolate individual the
agent. They go to their ownplace, you know, and they have
key to communities and assistedliving and so on. And, you know,
I lived in Italy for six years,and there, at least back in the,
you know, 25 years ago, thesemost of the elderly still lived
(29:10):
with their families. I thinkthat's healthy. Well, we don't
have any more. We don't havetwo, three generations in the
same family, in the same house,you know, see, so we, we are
separated from our elders. Imean, not entirely. So we see
some of it still withgrandparents. You know,
anthropologists, I taughtanthropology, and they said that
(29:30):
grandparenting is the purestexperience of love on this
planet. It dropped, you know,they said, you know, and with
your own kids and your ownspouse, you're so close there's
always tension. There's alwayssome tension with grandparents,
it's perfect and see as when youbecome a grandparent, you'll be
able to give your grandkids ablessing in such a way that
(29:52):
their parents can't quite do. Sothere's wisdom, there's also
blessing. I write on that in insacred fire and so on. But the
problem is, you put your fingeron the problem, I don't know
what the solution is. Since we,we, we put our elderly into
homes, you know, and, and soconsequently, they get penalized
(30:13):
because they don't have contactwith young people, and we get
penalized that we're not gettingtheir wisdom and and even,
living with their eccentricitiesis healthy for us. Living with a
cracky old uncle, you know, orgrandfather, it's like a stone
in the river. The water has togo around them, you know, and it
it makes less smoothness, butmakes for character. Our culture
(30:35):
is missing something by nothaving, you know, grandparents
and elders and stuff in thehouse. And maybe we have to get
more deliberate, you know, say,in in faith communities of, you
know, setting up evenings, youknow, or something where you
bring people from seniors homesand young kids, you know, I just
(30:56):
did a workshop in Tucson,Arizona. I do a lot of workshops
with this one. It was organizedby the youth group, but they
brought the older people there.
And it was one of the, the moreinteresting things of you know.
So they, it was organized by thesee if the old that organized
tried to bring the young, theywouldn't account. But the youth
organized, they brought the old.
(31:18):
And it was a wonderfulintergenerational periods, you
know, for both, you know, butsee, I think we need to do
things like that. We need toproactively set those things up.
Because right now, the culturewe have apartheid,
Joshua Johnson (31:35):
that's true, we do. We also have a culture where
we have a bunch of billionairestrying for anti aging don't want
to get older. They're trying tostay young forever. They're
actually even moving towardstranshumanism, like, hey, we
want to be more than human. Whatwould you say to a culture that
(31:55):
is moving towards that end? Whatis the gift of aging for us, and
why, as humans, we shouldembrace it and surrender and
trust, instead of try to go outthe opposite direction and stop
it.
Ronald Rolheiser (32:13):
You know, it's interesting. There are some
pretty good books written onthat already a generation ago.
I'm trying to think of his name,Denial of Death. Death. Ern
specker wrote a book thing. Hesaid, we're in a culture where
we deny death, just we don'tthink about it's not going to
happen, you know. And he said,we pay a price for that
(32:33):
psychologically. And thenearlier, Heidegger, the great
German theologian, written thebook being on to death in German
science, who told them, butbasically they say that you pay
a price that they weren'tspeaking spiritually, but you
pay a price psychologically, andthat's this. So let me give you
(32:54):
an example, like Heidegger wouldhave imagine Joshua that you
have a very dear, dear friendcoming, and you're going to meet
him at the airport. He's betweenflights, and you only have two
hours, so you know what's goingto happen. You're not going to
enjoy the two hours. Could youlook into your wristwatch 15
minutes ago? You know? See, seethat the fact that you're not
(33:16):
facing the fact that it's onlytwo hours, you don't enjoy the
two hours, you know, and see,they're saying that there's this
unconscious thing that the factthat we're afraid of dying,
actually, we don't live ourlives the way we should. I'll
give you a personal example inI've been a cancer survivor now
for 14 years, and in 2014 andI'm healthy now, but you know,
(33:43):
my doctor told me, you have twoyears left to live. And I saw
got a second opinion. He said,No, that's optimistic. You don't
have two years left to live, youknow. So I wrote myself a creed,
you know. But basically, youknow something, these 700 years
have been the best years of mylife. My life is dealt out to me
now in six months in treatment,good cancer. Well, you're good
(34:05):
for six months. We don't, can'tguarantee anything after that,
so we don't. That makes for agreat six months. No, you no
longer take life for granted.
You no longer take anything forgranted. See when, when you when
you don't accept mortality.
Which is part of our humannature. It's the way God build
(34:26):
us. Then we're there's going tobe something wrong with our
psyche. You know, now, whenwe're younger, you should think
you're going to live forever.
You get to an age where it'simportant to face your death,
and it'll make your life richer.
Otherwise, you're still gearingup to live. But plus, I wish
(34:47):
them luck. They're not going toget 200 years, and if you do,
they're not going to be greatyears anyway,
Joshua Johnson (34:52):
looking back at your earlier work, you know,
looking back at the holy longingand sacred fire has your
understanding of disciple. Shipmatured as you've entered into
this last final stage ofreflection. Is there anything
that surprised you? Is thereanything that has matured
looking back now from thisvantage point? Well,
Ronald Rolheiser (35:13):
you know, I never asked myself that
question. It's partly just offthe cuff. I'd say no, because it
kind of like you're growing.
These three books are also astory of my own growth and life
and so on, so that, you will.
And they're written over aperiod of 25 years. I wrote the
holy longing in 1997 I wrotesacred fire just a year or two
(35:33):
ago, you know. So that's, that's2530 years, you know. You know,
I'd have to think a little bitto the question like, What do I
see differently now than I saw,say, 25 years ago, or even 30
years before that, when I wrotea book called The Restless
Heart, you know, like as a youngperson 30 years old, about
struggling with youthfulloneliness and so on, I guess it
(35:56):
would still say everything Isaid there I would still stand
behind it's not that I'd lookback now. It's the holy longing
while I wrote some stuff thatwas the young me and was
immature. It may well beimmature, but it was, it would
still be immature, you know. ButI haven't had, like, some
breakthroughs of consciousnesswhere I thought, No, I didn't
realize that. I think probablythe biggest piece is the cancer
(36:19):
diagnosis the last 10 or 15years where you're facing like
for the last, certainly for thelast since 2014 11 years. I see
doctors every few months andthey say, well, you're going to
be it for another two months, orwhatever. You know that that, I
think has changed me and and puta different perspective to life.
Joshua Johnson (36:42):
Do you think that has changed the way that
you follow Jesus in your life,or is it has it changed into
like every day is a gift I'mgonna I'm going to receive the
gift that God has given me. Howdo you think that has has
shifted even your owndiscipleship journey.
Ronald Rolheiser (37:02):
No on first, you know, with the Jesus thing.
You know I am praying now muchmore consciously to be ready to
accept my death when he comes.
You know that I want to do thiswith dignity, with faith, with
whatever you know, like Paulsays, To cross the finish line
like, see, so I pray for thatevery day. And also, it's made
(37:25):
me a whole left, a whole lotless scared of death. I'm, I,
I'm scared of the process ofdying, you know, but, but not of
death itself, you know, like, Ithink that it's, it's made me,
in my prayer, much moreconfident in Jesus and the
Father and the Holy Spirit, andso that you almost look forward
(37:48):
to what's going to be there. Idon't look forward to the
process of getting there, dyingprocess, in any way, from
cancer, whatever is. You know,in fact, sometimes we have a
little joke like to say, like,how do you want to die? I want
to die like Archbishop of Maranabe shot in church. You know
what? It's, it's, it's over in asecond. You know, not die over
(38:10):
two years of cancer and the bodydecaying and so on. But no, it's
definitely brought me closer toJesus and less afraid of death,
more looking forward to meetingJesus. And my prayer right now
is a whole lot intentionally,like, make me ready for this
when he comes now. Ivan Illich,the great philosopher, he once
(38:33):
said, he said, I always pray,said, and let me not miss the
hour of my death. Amen, I don'twant to miss the hour of my own
death, you know. So that's partof my daily prayer now. But the
center there is Jesus, you know,kind of like, what
Joshua Johnson (38:49):
do you think the role of beauty and silence and
contemplation play in learningto see the world with elder
eyes?
Ronald Rolheiser (38:58):
Very important question, like beauty. I just
want to call him on that. Youknow, remember dufte? Yes, he
said, the world will be saved bybeauty. So let's look at beauty
first. Beauty, you know, we sayGod has four attributes, four
transcendent therapeutics. Godis one true, good and beautiful.
(39:18):
So they go by by beauty you areactually you're honoring God.
God is the author. So that'simportant. Silence and
completion are important, butthey need a nuance. Okay, let me
talk about that. You know,Meister Eckhart, a famous,
famous mystic, once said nothingso much approximate the language
(39:42):
of God, as does silence. Hesaid, It's God's language, and
there's some truth in that. Youknow, there are certain things
of soul, inner work you can onlydo in silence. But and while,
particularly the Catholic Churchand mystics have always pushed
that, I say. Have to also becareful with that, and that is
that we need two things. We needsilence and we need community.
(40:06):
So that silence can make you,make you deep, but it can make
you deep in sick ways. TheUnabomber lived in silence can
also make you weird. See yourinteraction with people grounds
you you know, you know itbasically they it keeps your
sanity going. So you need ahealthy need a healthy interplay
(40:28):
with family, with community andso on. And then you need to be
able to pull away. You know, Iworry today about our culture,
where someone's got a phone intheir hand, 24 hours a day, you
know, like they're grounded, butthere's no depth and so on. I
push silence, but with thatcaveat thing, but also make sure
(40:50):
you have good interaction. Toomuch, too much silence and
aloneness can make you weird andand too little of it can make
you superficial and and withoutdepth, that's the paradox. You
need silence for depth. You needcommunity for grounding, for
(41:11):
sanity. I
Joshua Johnson (41:12):
mean, we live in an individualistic society. We
see isolation of older peoplethere. Feels like the community
aspect is is more difficult toengage with in those times the
silence is probably easier toengage with. How can people
outside of the individualperson? How can I see
(41:34):
personally, people that needcommunity, that have been silent
for too long, and move towardsthem. How do we as a culture
move towards each other incommunity instead of being
isolated and alone andindividual?
Ronald Rolheiser (41:50):
Well, it comes back to your other question
again about you're right. It'sjust but today, our problem is
we've isolated these things.
We're doing apartheid. The younglive in one planet, the old live
on another planet. So I think weneed to do some kind of
proactive, intentional, youknow, setting up things, whether
it's a Bible study or dancenight or something where you
(42:14):
it's going to have to beprogrammed, because it's not
happening naturally anymore. Itused to happen naturally. It
live in families and through theparticipants. Participating in
family life, you know, nowthey're given a cat to smoke in
there and so on, which is betterthan nothing. Even like in
ministry, did you get youngpeople to volunteer to go in to
(42:35):
spend a few hours with thesepeople and so on? As a ministry,
Joshua Johnson (42:41):
you did say, and we've been talking about this a
lot in this conversation, thatfaith at the end is not clarity
but surrender, the willingnessto stand inside the darkness and
call it light. So my questionis, If faith is finally about
surrender, the end, what does itmean to live and to die with her
hands open.
Ronald Rolheiser (43:02):
Okay, you got a lot of pieces there. First of
all, let's start surrender. Iwork back to faith. You know,
you know, I'm struck by the verbthat they use when Jesus died in
Mark's gospel, Mark says, Thenhe bowed his head and he gave
over his spirit. Surrender isdifferent than resignation. See,
resignation of despair. Thebully has you penned. And
(43:24):
finally you say, I give up. See,that's not surrender. Surrender
is you're giving it over inlove, and that's the final move
that you got to give yourselfover. But notice you are giving
yourself over. Nobody's twistingyour arm, nobody's it's very
important to distinguishsurrender from resignation. I'm
all left nothing to live for. Imay as well give it over. You
(43:45):
know, somebody said, No, that's,that's a, that's an act of
faith. You know. Now, the secondthing about faith, and again,
this is a piece we try to workwith, a big piece with, with
forest dwelling, and that is, Ithink we, we often mistake faith
for the images we have of faith.
Give you one of my littleanalogies here. I always say,
(44:07):
imagine this. Imagine you're amother fish at the bottom of the
ocean 300 feet down, and thesebaby fish come up and say,
Mother, what is this water?
Everybody talks about, okay,you're 300 feet down. And how do
you give them? Well, today, themother fish could set up a power
(44:27):
projector and show slides ofwater, Niagara Falls, that water
tap or rain. And you know, thesefish would be very intrigued
with these pictures of water.
But notice that's not water.
Those are pictures of water. Youknow, at a certain point, the
mother fish would turn off theprojectors. You know, you've
seen the pictures. That's notwater. Just sit in the water,
let it flow through you, youknow. See, that's faith. See, we
(44:51):
can, can confuse faith with thepictures and with fervor, I
believe it, I believe it, and soon. It's not. That that's bad,
but that's that's not faith.
Faith, of faith is it'ssomething beyond that, and that
is why, precisely, sometimes youget these dark nights where
said, I don't know where theybelieve anymore. You know
something, they've shut theprojector off. You know, all the
(45:12):
pictures, the images we have ofGod, are not God. They're
pictures. So I'll ask you thisquestion, or ask you your
people, you know, imagine youcome home from some church
service or something, and youjust, you really feel like you'd
walk on water. Jesus is real,and so on. And some other night,
you wake up in bed and you starein the ceiling. I don't know if
(45:33):
I can believe in God. I can'timagine God existing, you know.
Does that mean once you have astrong faith and once you have a
weak faith, though, it meansonce you have a strong
imagination, and once you have aweak imagination, see, see, God
is ineffable. You can't imagineGod. You can't speak. You can
know God. And so as we get olderand mature, a lot of times, the
(45:54):
fervor the images become lesshelpful to us, and it can be
very disturbing. Say, God, youknow, I used to have, I used to
be able to walk on water, andnow I can't. You know? No,
you're moving more into theprojectors shutting off. Now
you're just sitting in thewater. As Paul says, In Him, we
live and move and breathe andhave our being. Or the Luke said
(46:16):
that as we get older, we have tounderstand the dynamics of
faith. You know, the mysticscall that dark nights, where
we're basically, and that's theopposite of fervor. No fervor is
real. It's good. You know, like,usually when, when people first,
when we're young, or we'reconverting and so on. You can
get some periods and and theysay, God gives that to you,
(46:39):
that's, that's, that's to getyou started. That's your little
honeymoon in prayer and so on,where you can walk on water. And
then the longer you go, the moreat a certain point that
disappears. And now you're justvisiting your mother, and you
trust the deep things arehappening on the surface. And
then, like your wife, you justshow up. You show up, you know,
(47:00):
and, and, and that's the depthof it, you know, we tend to
confuse faith with theimagination. I can imagine God.
I can picture God. Well, firstof all, you can't, because God
is infinite. I always tellstudents, I'll tell you what
think of this. Think of thehighest number it's possible to
(47:21):
count to. And tell me what itis, you'll never get there. You
know, see, infinity. It has nobeginning, has no end. So you
can't circumscribe it. To thinkGod, you'd have to circumscribe
so theologians say you can knowGod. You know God, but you can't
think God. We can think ofimages of God. We can have a
(47:43):
slide projector on and say, thisis this and but always this,
this is a PowerPointpresentation. Even scripture is
a PowerPoint presentation. Andinspired one about God. God is
still like faith is underneaththat.
Joshua Johnson (48:00):
And so this conversation has been
incredible. I have a couple ofquick questions here at the very
end that I like to ask. And oneis, if you go back to your 21
year old self, what advice wouldyou give
Ronald Rolheiser (48:12):
good question I would give this, stay with it.
Stay with it. Whatever acommitment. You know, make a
commitment. First of all, makesome commitment. You know,
today, a lot of people struggleto make a commitment, you know,
like commit, whether it's to amarriage to whatever, and then,
unless it's completelydysfunctional. So stay with it.
(48:33):
Stay with it. Just don't leaveit because, well, it's not
fulfilling and so on. Keepshowing up. Keep showing up in
your faith and so on. Keep goingto church, keep praying, not
because it's meaningful, becausethat means something. It's
meaningful itself, you know,like, stay with the rituals.
Ritual has held me, you know,that's why I love so much. Like
(48:56):
that line from Bonhoeffer, hesaid, you know, your love is
going to save, save yourmarriage. Your marriage is going
to save your love, you know,see, and your fervor is going to
save your faith. You know, therituals are going to save your
faith. Going to church on Sundayis a ritual, you see, doing it,
you know, you know, and that'sgoing to save us. And some
(49:17):
Sundays, you're in it. SomeSundays, you're not back, you're
forth.
Joshua Johnson (49:20):
Yeah, that's so good. Anything you've been
reading or watching lately, youcould recommend.
Ronald Rolheiser (49:25):
I'm always reading something right now, I'm
actually reading the letters ofDorothy Day, the great Catholic
Booker thing you know, which youknow, pushes me in terms of the
poor. I'm an academic, and Iteach that you teach theology
students. And, you know, we havestreet people come here and I
give them $20 but I don'tdollars, but I don't think
that's what Jesus meant abouthaving real contact with the
(49:47):
poor and so on. But books thattheologically, let me recommend
a couple. Are you familiar withit with a which is they're
popular and they're deep. Sothey're popular and they're
both. They're not simplistic.
Are you familiar with a womancalled Rachel Held Evans
Evangelical, sadly, died at age37 or 38 you know, from a
(50:10):
reaction to an antibiotic, but,but her books, I would recommend
to anybody of any denomination.
You know, she's good as a RomanCatholic, I also like Richard
Rohr, Richard Rohr writings andso on, probably just in terms of
books that that have some depthand are accessible. You know,
(50:31):
there's no sense of like some ofthe theologians. You know, they
say read Karl Barth. When youcan't read Karl Marx, you need
courses on these people, but I'dsay read Rachel How Evans, you
know,
Joshua Johnson (50:44):
excellent well.
And same for the light. Your newbook is available anywhere books
are sold you go. What hope doyou have for this book? What
would you like to like leaveyour readers with?
Ronald Rolheiser (50:56):
Well, first of all, it was one of it's part of
a trilogy. I want people have astructure for spirituality. But
with this, it's as we're aging,there isn't a lot out there for
us. You know, otherwise, youknow they're kicking you out of
the culture that you knowthey're trying to get you into a
seniors home. They're, you know,all your power and stuff is gone
(51:18):
and so on. Unless you're like,those can be the best years of
your life and and you can still,it's interesting Abraham and
Isaac. I mean, Abraham andSarah, they had their real kid
when he was 100 and she was 90.
Maybe you're real Isaac, maybewhen you really need to give to
the world, Josh, it's only goingto happen when you're 80 years
old. You know, like, right now,you're doing some partly good
(51:40):
work, but who knows what the 80year old Joshua can give to the
world. You know, so read thebook and contemplate what's
going to be your post menopausalpregnancy. Or how am I going to
or just more practically, how amI going to resist the getting
angry and bitter as I get older.
(52:04):
How can I understand aging so Idon't get angry and bitter as
they get older and get moremarginalized? Excellent.
Joshua Johnson (52:11):
Well, Father Ron, well, thank you for this
conversation. It was it wasfascinating. It was deep. I
really prayed that a lot ofpeople would get something out
of it, so that they can actuallysurrender, give their deaths
away, that could they could moveinto a place where they could
grow transparently so the lightcan shine through. So thank you
(52:32):
so much. It was
Ronald Rolheiser (52:32):
wonderful.
Thanks to and prayers for yourown work. Joshua, thank you.
Okay. You you.
You know, I'm struck by the verb that they use
(00:03):
when Jesus died in Mark'sgospel, Mark says, Then he bowed
his head and he gave over hisspirit. Surrender is different
in resignation. See, resignationof the spirit. The bully has you
penned, and finally you say, Igive up. See, that's not
surrender. Surrender is you'regiving it over in love.
Joshua Johnson (00:34):
Hello and welcome to the shift in culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact wecould make. We long to see the
body of Christ look like Jesus.
I'm your host. Joshua Johnson,few spiritual writers have
traced the human journey with asmuch honesty and depth as
father, Ronald rohlheiser, histrilogy The Holy longing, sacred
fire and now insane for thelight, maps the movement from
(00:57):
getting our lives together, togiving them away, to finally
giving our deaths away. In thisconversation, we explore how
faith matures with time, how theenergy of youth gives way to the
wisdom of surrender, and howhelplessness can become his own
form of grace. Father rohlheisertalks about the difference
(01:18):
between resignation andsurrender, about showing up when
we feel nothing, and about howlove is sustained not by emotion
but by presence. We also talkabout how aging as a spiritual
practice is moving frombitterness to gratitude, control
to trust and learning to growtransparent until the light
shines through. So join us for aconversation about fidelity,
(01:41):
surrender and the beauty of afaith that holds even when all
our images of God fall away.
Here is my conversation withFather, Ronald rohlheiser.
Father Ronald rohlheiser,welcome to shifting culture.
It's an honor to have you onthank you for joining me.
Ronald Rolheiser (01:59):
Thank you, Josh, it's a pleasure being with
you. Okay, your
Joshua Johnson (02:03):
new book that's coming out in same for the
light, it's a spiritual journeyfor our wisdom years. It's the
third of your trilogy thatstarted with the holy longing,
sacred fire. And now here, insame for the light, can you take
us on a little bit of thejourney of, let's go back holy
longing and sacred fire. Andwhat are these, the arc of the
(02:27):
human journey? What does it looklike? And what are these
struggles?
Ronald Rolheiser (02:32):
Yeah, well, let's begin this way. You know,
like in Christian spirituality,we haven't, you know, sorted out
so much like that. You know thatthis is spirituality for Sunday
school. This is for adults, thisis for retired people and so on.
And notice you don't see that inJesus. Jesus just has a set of
teachings. But the difference isthis, we hear them in different
(02:53):
times of our lives. It's onething to hear a parable when
you're seven years old, anotherthing there when you're 17, when
you're 37 and you're 77 youknow, and that's why we need to
break this down. The structure Iuse actually comes to the great
Christian mystics, and it'sspiritual structure. It's also
psychological oranthropological, they'll say.
(03:15):
And this makes perfect sense.
You have three great strugglesin your life. The first one to
struggle to get your lifetogether. You know, from the
time you're born till you landin your 20s, sometimes you know
who are you, and how do you getyour life together? But then you
have about 50 years, generativeyears, I call them. You know
where you're in that right now,where your struggle is to give
your life away. You know, at ourage, the biggest struggle
(03:38):
shouldn't be, who am I? And howdo I find myself? And how do I
serve better, and so on. Butusually Christian spirituality,
popular spirituality, endedthere, then you're expected to
die, but you need another one,and that is, how do you live
your old age in such a way thatthese have a different kind of
generativity. In fact, the imageI use is this, you have Abraham
(04:01):
and Sarah. And this is anincredible story. They said,
when Abraham was 80 and she was70, God said, I want you to set
off to a distant country, andwhen you get there, she's going
to become pregnant. So they do.
It took 20 years. Now, when he's100 she's 90, they have Isaac,
you know. So we always say,like, like, what's going to be
(04:23):
your post menopausal pregnancy?
Like, like, like, today, a lotof people are retiring 65 and
they're going to live healthilyfor 20 or 25 years. What are
those years for? And then also,the concept they use in the book
is the same as right now, you'retrying to give your life away
through service in those latteryears, you got to give your
death away. Your death as Henrynow and you say, it's your it's
(04:44):
the last greatest gift you maketo your to your community. So
the books are the holy longingis basically how to get your
life together, sacred fires, howdo you give your life away? And
this book is, how do you giveyour death away? What's the
spirituality for. Retirement andpost retirement.
Joshua Johnson (05:01):
So as we walk through these struggles and
these journeys, you're going tosuffer, you're going to have
difficulties. As I'm in thistime of service and giving my
life away, I'm also goingthrough darkness and suffering
and times where I feel like Ican't I don't have anything in
(05:23):
me to give away. God is obscureto me. What happens? How do we
walk through those struggles andbe attached to divine love in
the midst of our suffering?
Ronald Rolheiser (05:36):
Couple of things there, you actually put
your finger on something that'svery important. You know, I
think that in Christianspirituality, we haven't been
able to tease that out well forpeople. So, you know, you know,
we can talk about later withjust like, dark nights or
something, but if you say, like,what's what? What's the meaning
of the suffering, you know,well, first of all, and this is
part of what I have in this lastbook, sometimes when you're
(06:00):
helpless when you have nothingto give, that's when you have
the most to give. Let me use theexample I use of Jesus, you
know. And I don't think we'veever teased that out properly,
you know. But you know, likewhen we talk about Christ's
passion, the Passion of Jesus,Christ, we normally think of his
sufferings, you know, and thepilot and the whips and so on.
(06:23):
But that partly misses thepoint. If you know, passion here
comes from the word Passio meanspassivity. If he said, This is
the passivity of Jesus Christ,like, for instance, if you read
the passivity of Jesus Christaccording to Matthew or mark and
so on, and the rest of the timeyou could talk about the
activity. You know, when youlook at all four gospels, you'll
(06:45):
notice this up until Jesus isarrested and they bind Him and
walk him away. He is the active.
Notice he's teaching, preaching,doing miracles, doing all this
stuff and so on. And after he'sarrested, he doesn't do anything
anymore. Everything is done tohim so he becomes passive. You
know, they lead him away. Theybind him. They put him on trial.
(07:05):
Pilate carries his cross.
They'll cross. Now this is theinteresting thing. We believe we
are saved more by his passivitythan his activity. We are saved
through what Jesus taught us,but we're saved preeminently by
his dying for us and so on. Andnow that isn't just some
theological mystery, it is, butyou know like like, for
(07:27):
instance, in our helplessness,in your passivity, sometimes you
can, you can give more than youcan in your activity. A friend
of mine, this woman tells astory, said her father was an
alcoholic, and he said hisalcoholism completely destroyed
our family. So by the time hedied, said we were five
siblings. We couldn't live inthe same house to the same city
(07:49):
with each other. So then mymother, for years, tried to
reconcile us. She'd bring ustogether at Thanksgiving and do
stuff, said, and it didn't work.
Said. Then my mother died ofcancer, and during the last week
of her life, she was unconsciousin hospice since and the family
gathered around her, you knowwhat happened? They reconciled.
When she was unconscious andcouldn't do anything, she was
(08:12):
able to what she couldn't do inher activity. That's true of
Jesus. You know, Jesus tried forthree and a half years to get
his message costs, and theydidn't get it. He died, and they
got it. That's a great mystery.
That's a great mystery. And sowhen, when you're in your
generative years, and you'restruggling, you're struggling
with faith, with tiredness, withthis and that and so on. And I,
(08:35):
I teased that out in the bookthe sacred fire that you know
those generative years, they'regoing to be long. Fact, John of
the Cross, the great mystic,says, you know, it's going to be
the biggest problem in yourprayer for about 30 years of
your life. He said, flat outboredom, like basically, and you
expect that. He said, Because atthat age, that the deeper things
(08:56):
are happening under the surface.
You know, when you're in fervor,when you first convert, and
you're walking on water and soon. It's all you know that, but
that's a honeymoon that onlylasts. You come home from a
honeymoon, then you have 30 or40 or 50 years where a heat
exchange that verb. You're kindof grinding it out, but you're
not grinding out because what'shappening is deeper. Things are
happening under the surface, youknow, on a honeymoon, stuff
(09:21):
happens on a surface that andthen also your helplessness,
when you're tired and down andout and you want to quit and you
show up, maybe that tiredness isgoing to color your work in such
a way that it's much deeper andmore powerful. Or, I'm sure,
Joshua, you ever gone to afuneral, a tragic thing, and you
have nothing to say, and youjust hug the person you're
(09:44):
sharing your helplessness that'sthe most powerful thing you can
do. You know, you say a fewwords, but they're completely
unhelpful. Basically, yourhelplessness is what speaks and
what heals you. So Jesus, in hishelplessness, was able to do
something for us that hecouldn't do when he was the
great helper. It's interestingto say in Mark's gospel, all the
(10:07):
verbs about Jesus in Greek,before he's arrested are active.
He taught, he walked, he did.
And after he's arrested, they'reall passive. They bound him,
they let him away, discouragedhim, they questioned him.
Passivity and helplessness.
That's a big part of that last
Joshua Johnson (10:27):
book, that passivity and the helplessness.
If you're talking about theboredom, Johnson Cross says
you're praying, it's gonna beboredom during this time, it
feels like there's, there'sgenerative things to do. But if
you say something like deeperunderneath, like the things that
are happening are reallyunderneath the surface, is that
(10:50):
the passivity that's happeningunder the surface while you're
being generative in your life,what is going on there that is
actually forming us into this,this creature that looks more
like Jesus,
Ronald Rolheiser (11:04):
okay, that's part of it, but let me give you
the example that I use withstudents in class. You know. So
imagine this, okay, imagine yourmother is in assisted living,
okay? And you are the dutifulson, and you happen to be living
five miles away, and so it fallson you. And five or six nights a
(11:24):
week, you go and spend an hourwith your mother. She's eating
her dinner and so on. Spend sometime with her. And you do this
day in, day out, year in, yearout. How many times during the
course of a year do you thinkyou'll have an exciting,
interesting conversation withyour mother once or twice, and
the other times you're talkingabout the weather, the sports
team, the politics and you know.
And sometimes while you're she'seating, you fall asleep for 15
(11:48):
minutes, you wake up and so on.
Now contrast that you have asister and she is conveniently
living in Alaska, okay? So shedoes not become five nights. So
she comes once a year for acouple days, and her and your
mother are having conversations.
They're crying and hugging eachother. You want to kill them
both. Okay, now it's what yoursister has. Is that deeper than
(12:12):
what you have? No that's fervor,you know, see, when your mother
dies, you're going to be closerto her than anybody. Because you
know the words have been spoken,then presence, presence is
everything. You are with her,and if you fall asleep, that's
okay too. You know tres of lezu,the saying she wants that.
(12:33):
Somebody asked her, is it wrongto fall asleep when you pray?
And she said, No. Said a littlechild is equally pleasing to her
parents, awake or asleep, maybemore asleep. No, your mother
lost. You're tired, you'rethere. You know, see, so that
during these generative years,that's the thing. Your task is
to show up for prayer, forservice, for family. So on, day
(12:57):
in, day out, it isn't alwaysexciting on the surface. That
fidelity, you know, that's theessence of contemplative prayer.
We another example I often useon a marriage homily from
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the greatLutheran and martyr. You know,
he was a priest, and when hemarried people, he'd almost tell
(13:18):
them. He said today, you'reyoung and you're in love, and
you think your love will sustainyour marriage, but it can't. But
your marriage can sustain yourlove. See, see, see, your fervor
isn't going to sustain yourprayer, it isn't going to
sustain you know, but, but yourcommitment can sustain that you
know. See, you stay in amarriage, or you stay in a
(13:40):
church, or you stay in serviceon the basis of commitment.
You're going to visit yourmother five nights a week and so
on. See then your emotions, theymove in, they move out. Some
Sundays, you're better inchurch. Other Sundays, you're
looking at your wrist watch andso on. It doesn't matter. You
know, you're there, you'rethere. The basic, ultimate rule
for prayer is simply show up.
Joshua Johnson (14:04):
Show up. So it feels like, if it's a show up,
it's, it's about presence andbeing with more than the
whatever the activity is. Butit's, it's the the presence of
of God with us, even if we don'thave that emotional high before
or even if we don't feel hispresence, but the actual like
(14:25):
with ness of God,
Ronald Rolheiser (14:27):
see, love is sustained through a commitment.
So give me an example. So youtake a married couple, okay? And
they have a little ritualpractice. So every morning,
before they leave for work, theykiss each other and say, I love
you, okay, some mornings,emotionally, they don't mean
that, no, but actually, deeperdown, they do mean that. That's
(14:48):
where they're staying together.
See, see, that separates youremotions from the depth and
faith. So faith is, you know,some days you show up for
church. You don't want to bethere. So, you know, but, but,
yes, you do at a deeper. Level.
At a deeper level, you know thatthat's, you know, I give you a
colorful story, you know,remember, you know that the
writer, Annie Lamotte, yeah,Annie Lamotte, you know, right
(15:11):
out of San Francisco and but shetells the story, I love this her
color. She says her son, Samuel,said, I raised this kid. I
virtually raised him at church,said, and then he said, he gets
to be 1314, he comes one Sunday,and he says, I don't want to go
to church anymore. And she says,why not? I don't find it
meaningful. So you know what shesaid to him? She said, I
(15:33):
couldn't give a shit whether youfind it meaningful or not. She
says, that's a kid's answer.
Said it doesn't have to bemeaningful to you, it's
meaningful in itself. So it'slike visiting your grandmother,
you know, visit your grandmotherbecause it's meaningful to you.
It's meaningful. That's what youdo. You know, and I like that.
You know, like you don't go tochurch every Sunday because it's
meaningful to you. You go tochurch because it's meaningful.
(15:55):
You don't show up to pray everyday because it's meaningful to
you. It's meaningful. Thesethings mean something beyond
you. And like you said, justpresence showing up, visiting
your mother, you know, you know,or the ritual a couple of
kisses, I love you. Some daysthey want to kill each other,
you know, no but deeper down,they love each other, you know.
(16:15):
See, in that sense, that's whatbonhomme meant when he said, The
ritual will hold you the ritualwill keep you in love. Love will
keep you inside of a marriage. Amarriage will keep you inside of
love.
Joshua Johnson (16:31):
I mean, it's good. A couple of weeks ago, as
we were sitting around having aconversation, my wife said, I
have the spiritual gift ofshowing up, and that people that
were there were like, you haveso much more than just showing
up. And she wasn't actually,like denigrating herself. It's,
it's what she she commits, andshe shows up and she's there and
(16:54):
she's present. And I think whatyou just said will encourage her
that it is a spiritual gift toshow up. It is the commitment to
be there, day in and day out asa Hey. It is meaningful, even if
you're not finding meaning andpurpose at the moment when you
show up. This is what God hascalled us to, to give our lives
away through service.
Ronald Rolheiser (17:15):
That's the ultimate spiritual gift,
fidelity, you know. And youknow, when Martin Luther King
was being buried, I was a youngseminar. Seminarian, and I
remember a statement. They wereinterviewing some people, and
they said to this old blackfellow, they said, What does it
mean to you? Said he was afaithful man. He said he
believed in us when we didn'tbelieve in ourselves. He said,
(17:37):
You know, like he always showedup, basically, you know, that's
fidelity. He was a faithful man.
You know, notice faithful andfull of faith. It's the same
word faithful you show up.
That's the deep faith commitmentunderneath your emotions go up
and down and up and down. Also,people, if you're only going to
pray when you feel like it,you're not going to pray very
(17:59):
often. You pray when it's timeto pray
Joshua Johnson (18:01):
as we move out of that service time and then
move into our wisdom years andand you distinguish between the
elderly and becoming an elder.
What makes that difference aswe're moving into our wisdom
years?
Ronald Rolheiser (18:18):
Well, you know, it's interesting that you
should ask. You know, inChristianity, and that's not a
disparaging remark, Chris, we'venever really developed a program
or spirituality for our lateryears, and the reason we didn't
is because we didn't need it.
People used to die young. Youwouldn't believe this 100 years
ago, or 105 years ago, in 1919,the average age for an American
(18:40):
was 49 so so if you're dying byage 50, you don't need much of a
developed spiritual today, it's76 for men and about 86 for
women. So we need to developthis. But then also, there are
stages. We have a program here.
We call it forest dwelling.
Okay, we stole the title fromHinduism. In Hinduism, they said
(19:03):
there's a stage betweenretirement and becoming a true
elder, and they call it forestdwelling. So it's almost like,
you know, when you finished highschool, you went to college to
prepare for life. They said, No,when you retire, you should go
back to college. You should havesome years to get ready so that
you enter in our program. We'dsay, Joshua, we want to work
(19:25):
with you now. Right now, you'retransitioning. You're
transitioning from a certainkind of generativity to work
you've done for 40 years. How doyou become the holy old beggar?
How do you become the Christianmartyr and so on when nobody
wants to kill you. So see, sothat, so that it's, it's an
interim stage where you see,like you have to learn what,
(19:46):
what am I being called to, likeAbraham and Sarah, what's going
to be your Isaac? What Isaac areyou going to give birth to when
you when you're 7580 and 90years old? You know? See, right?
Know Your generativity isclearer. You're a married man,
you have kids, you're doing ajob, you're paying a mortgage
and so on. That's good. That allends at a certain point, and
(20:07):
then you might live another 25years. So what are they for? See
you you're not when you retireat 65 or 70, you're still not an
elder. You're you know, it'sbasically, how do you become
that holy old fool, the holy oldbeggar? How do you, or how do
you enter into Christ's passionthat your passivity, your
(20:28):
diminishment in old age, that'sgoing to be a great gift to the
world. So how do we
Joshua Johnson (20:37):
Yeah, what's the path for two year
Ronald Rolheiser (20:39):
program for that, you know, there's certain
things to it, you know, like,let me just list this to few,
and I can list them asprinciples. They're not that
that like, for instance, I havesix movements. I said one of the
movements you have to move frombitterness and anger to
gratitude, from bitterness andanger to gratitude. You know,
(21:02):
Morris, West Australia,novelist. He wrote an
autobiography, which youpublished when you're 75 years
old. It's a great little book.
You know, these are the firstwords of the book. He said, When
you get to be 75 there shouldonly be three phrases left in
your vocabulary. Thank you.
Thank you, and thank you. Ifthat isn't your down to then you
have a lot of inner work to do.
See, as we go through our youth,and you pick up some scars and
(21:26):
unfairness and all kinds ofstuff, and it's so easy to age
into a bitter, angry old man orold woman and so on. So that our
first task is you got to movetowards gratitude, where, when
you're 75 and you write yourautobiography, you would say,
(21:46):
thank you, thank you. Thank you.
You know, you know, it'sinteresting when you look at the
four Eucharistic words of Jesusand receive, give thanks. Break
and share. He doesn't sayreceive, break and share. You
know, like real love has to comeout of gratitude. Or one of the
stories we use this and maybereaders have read that you ever
(22:07):
in 1997 Frankie McCourt, UnitedStates American, wrote this
famous book, Angela's Ashes, inwhich he, you know, it's a
brilliant book. It's funny, buta book with a lot of lamenting,
you know, poor me and this andthat and so on and well, Andrew
Greeley, other sixth generationIrishman, he wrote a review on
that for Commonweal, and it wasa very good review. He said,
(22:30):
Stop with the whining. But whenhe ended the review by saying
this, said, Frank. He said, Youand I are both men now at 70
years old, said we're soon tofish our maker. Both have died
since, so I'll give you someadvice. Said, before you die, I
said, forgive your father forhis alcoholism, forgive your
mother that she couldn't protectyou, forgive the poverty that
(22:52):
you grew up in. He said, toforgive yourself for becoming an
alcoholic and ruining twomarriages. He said, then forgive
God, because life isn't fair, hesaid, so that you don't die an
angry, bitter person. He said,because that's the only moral
imperative there is. That's agood line. We always tell
people, when you get a littleolder, you CAN SLIM your
spiritual vocabulary down to twowords, gratitude and
(23:14):
forgiveness. You don't want toexit the planet bitter, angry,
because, you know, we'resupposed to be at a backward
table with everybody. A friendof mine, a theologian, I love
this expression. He says, Theheavenly backward table is open
to everyone who's willing to sitdown with everyone. So if I die
and I can't be a table withthese other 10 people, he can't
(23:36):
have separate tables in heaven.
You know, otherwise you haveEarth. The biggest thing is, you
know, spiritually is to let goof anger, of bitterness and so
on. We don't get angry when weget old. I was once at a
psychiatrist conference, andsomeone asked a psychiatrist, I
said, how come so many peopleget angry when they get old?
Never happens. Sit up in 40years, it never happens. I think
(23:58):
what you're talking about is anangry person getting old. See,
the anger is always in there. Itjust comes out in spades. You
know? The next one is also, aswe get older, certain things
that you get you're moremarginalized culturally. You're
more marginalized in terms ofpower. Oftentimes there's
physical stuff, physicaldisabilities and so on, that
(24:21):
that beset you, okay, and so on.
Like to handle those in such away that they deepen and mellow
your soul rather than than makeyour soul bitter. James Hillman
has a great image. He has a bookon aging, and he says, starts
the book. He says, Why does Godor nature design life in this
(24:43):
way that just when you get tothe peak of your mental powers,
your body starts breaking down,you're in your 70s and so on,
and now that's the peak of yourpowers. And then you're seeing a
doctor every day, you know? Andhe has a great image. He said,
You know why? He. Said, the bestwines have to be aged and
cracked old barrels. He said,That's mellowing your soul. See,
(25:09):
in the same even right now, likeyou said to anyone you're tired,
that's mellowing your soul. Infact, you know, I'm in my late
70s, and one of my mentors, youknow, like and I used to be
president of a school and ourgeneral counsel in Rome and and
now I have no power to wheneverI sit to myself, like, let it
go. Let it go. Let it go. It'sjust basically, you know, you're
(25:32):
no longer there. You got toaccept that, you know, like, you
become more marginalized. You'restepping away, you know. And the
same with physical ailments andso on. You know when, when
you're in assisted living, youknow something, it's it's a
great way. Put it this way, whenJesus become like little
children, you can enter thekingdom of heaven. He wasn't
(25:52):
talking about the innocence of achild, which you can't imitate.
He's talking about thehelplessness. When you're in
assisted living, you'rehelpless. You're a child. You
die, you go straight to heaven.
You know, you know, you have noillusion of self sufficiency.
Again, with the story, like Iwas doing the story a priest
friend of mine, I went to thefuneral of his dad. And his dad
died at age 90, you know, and hehad been a strong man, very
(26:17):
successful, you know, in highschool, the captain football
team, everything. And then hevery successful. Raised a big
family, big company, very alwaysin charge of everything. And he
died at age 90. So his son, whowas a priest, was preaching at
the funeral, and he said, Well,he said, Here lies our dad died
(26:38):
at age 90, and scripture says 70is the sum of a man's ears. 80
for those who are strong. Hesaid, No, he left the extra 20
years. Why is it no accident? Hesaid, It took God another 20
years to mellow him out. Said hewas too cantankerous and strong,
did I at 70 or 80? Said, but thelast years of his life were
(26:58):
years of massive diminishment.
His wife died, broke his heart,then he had a stroke. He needed
a walker, and then he hadanother stroke, and then he was
bedridden. Said, by the time hedied, he said he could take your
hand and say, help me. Hecouldn't say that since he was
seven years old, like he said,said now he said, When he got to
(27:19):
the other side, he just said,help me. Said, 10 years ago they
told Saint Peter, let me tellyou how to run this place.
There's a lot of improvementsyou should be making here. You
know, you know what John of theCross calls the dark night of
the Spirit. You know, like thewell, he said you can enter that
proactively, but mostly it'sgoing to be done to us. You know
(27:39):
what he's that's, that's whatthe dark night spirit looks
like, diminishment so on. Andsee it our task. When that
happens, we can become bitterand angry, or we can let it
mellow our soul.
Joshua Johnson (27:52):
I think that's, that's beautiful. And you say
you write in your book, to growold is to grow transparent until
the light shines through. Andthat feels like that mellowing
journey, the journey of lettinggo and surrendering, feels like,
Oh, I could be transparent. Isthere a way to structure or to
(28:13):
include elders in communities,faith communities, so that the
wisdom of elders as the light isshining through. Can we can
start early with gratitude andforgiveness and letting go while
we're still being generative andfull of service? How can we
(28:36):
incorporate elders, not put themto the side, but have them
integral to the life of a faithcommunity.
Ronald Rolheiser (28:46):
Well, you put your finger on something
important, that's what should behappening. Sadly, our culture is
moving the opposite direction,where we isolate individual the
agent. They go to their ownplace, you know, and they have
key to communities and assistedliving and so on. And, you know,
I lived in Italy for six years,and there, at least back in the,
you know, 25 years ago, thesemost of the elderly still lived
(29:10):
with their families. I thinkthat's healthy. Well, we don't
have any more. We don't havetwo, three generations in the
same family, in the same house,you know, see, so we, we are
separated from our elders. Imean, not entirely. So we see
some of it still withgrandparents. You know,
anthropologists, I taughtanthropology, and they said that
(29:30):
grandparenting is the purestexperience of love on this
planet. It dropped, you know,they said, you know, and with
your own kids and your ownspouse, you're so close there's
always tension. There's alwayssome tension with grandparents,
it's perfect and see as when youbecome a grandparent, you'll be
able to give your grandkids ablessing in such a way that
(29:52):
their parents can't quite do. Sothere's wisdom, there's also
blessing. I write on that in insacred fire and so on. But the
problem is, you put your fingeron the problem, I don't know
what the solution is. Since we,we, we put our elderly into
homes, you know, and, and soconsequently, they get penalized
(30:13):
because they don't have contactwith young people, and we get
penalized that we're not gettingtheir wisdom and and even,
living with their eccentricitiesis healthy for us. Living with a
cracky old uncle, you know, orgrandfather, it's like a stone
in the river. The water has togo around them, you know, and it
it makes less smoothness, butmakes for character. Our culture
(30:35):
is missing something by nothaving, you know, grandparents
and elders and stuff in thehouse. And maybe we have to get
more deliberate, you know, say,in in faith communities of, you
know, setting up evenings, youknow, or something where you
bring people from seniors homesand young kids, you know, I just
(30:56):
did a workshop in Tucson,Arizona. I do a lot of workshops
with this one. It was organizedby the youth group, but they
brought the older people there.
And it was one of the, the moreinteresting things of you know.
So they, it was organized by thesee if the old that organized
tried to bring the young, theywouldn't account. But the youth
organized, they brought the old.
(31:18):
And it was a wonderfulintergenerational periods, you
know, for both, you know, butsee, I think we need to do
things like that. We need toproactively set those things up.
Because right now, the culturewe have apartheid,
Joshua Johnson (31:35):
that's true, we do. We also have a culture where
we have a bunch of billionairestrying for anti aging don't want
to get older. They're trying tostay young forever. They're
actually even moving towardstranshumanism, like, hey, we
want to be more than human. Whatwould you say to a culture that
(31:55):
is moving towards that end? Whatis the gift of aging for us, and
why, as humans, we shouldembrace it and surrender and
trust, instead of try to go outthe opposite direction and stop
it.
Ronald Rolheiser (32:13):
You know, it's interesting. There are some
pretty good books written onthat already a generation ago.
I'm trying to think of his name,Denial of Death. Death. Ern
specker wrote a book thing. Hesaid, we're in a culture where
we deny death, just we don'tthink about it's not going to
happen, you know. And he said,we pay a price for that
(32:33):
psychologically. And thenearlier, Heidegger, the great
German theologian, written thebook being on to death in German
science, who told them, butbasically they say that you pay
a price that they weren'tspeaking spiritually, but you
pay a price psychologically, andthat's this. So let me give you
(32:54):
an example, like Heidegger wouldhave imagine Joshua that you
have a very dear, dear friendcoming, and you're going to meet
him at the airport. He's betweenflights, and you only have two
hours, so you know what's goingto happen. You're not going to
enjoy the two hours. Could youlook into your wristwatch 15
minutes ago? You know? See, seethat the fact that you're not
(33:16):
facing the fact that it's onlytwo hours, you don't enjoy the
two hours, you know, and see,they're saying that there's this
unconscious thing that the factthat we're afraid of dying,
actually, we don't live ourlives the way we should. I'll
give you a personal example inI've been a cancer survivor now
for 14 years, and in 2014 andI'm healthy now, but you know,
(33:43):
my doctor told me, you have twoyears left to live. And I saw
got a second opinion. He said,No, that's optimistic. You don't
have two years left to live, youknow. So I wrote myself a creed,
you know. But basically, youknow something, these 700 years
have been the best years of mylife. My life is dealt out to me
now in six months in treatment,good cancer. Well, you're good
(34:05):
for six months. We don't, can'tguarantee anything after that,
so we don't. That makes for agreat six months. No, you no
longer take life for granted.
You no longer take anything forgranted. See when, when you when
you don't accept mortality.
Which is part of our humannature. It's the way God build
(34:26):
us. Then we're there's going tobe something wrong with our
psyche. You know, now, whenwe're younger, you should think
you're going to live forever.
You get to an age where it'simportant to face your death,
and it'll make your life richer.
Otherwise, you're still gearingup to live. But plus, I wish
(34:47):
them luck. They're not going toget 200 years, and if you do,
they're not going to be greatyears anyway,
Joshua Johnson (34:52):
looking back at your earlier work, you know,
looking back at the holy longingand sacred fire has your
understanding of disciple. Shipmatured as you've entered into
this last final stage ofreflection. Is there anything
that surprised you? Is thereanything that has matured
looking back now from thisvantage point? Well,
Ronald Rolheiser (35:13):
you know, I never asked myself that
question. It's partly just offthe cuff. I'd say no, because it
kind of like you're growing.
These three books are also astory of my own growth and life
and so on, so that, you will.
And they're written over aperiod of 25 years. I wrote the
holy longing in 1997 I wrotesacred fire just a year or two
(35:33):
ago, you know. So that's, that's2530 years, you know. You know,
I'd have to think a little bitto the question like, What do I
see differently now than I saw,say, 25 years ago, or even 30
years before that, when I wrotea book called The Restless
Heart, you know, like as a youngperson 30 years old, about
struggling with youthfulloneliness and so on, I guess it
(35:56):
would still say everything Isaid there I would still stand
behind it's not that I'd lookback now. It's the holy longing
while I wrote some stuff thatwas the young me and was
immature. It may well beimmature, but it was, it would
still be immature, you know. ButI haven't had, like, some
breakthroughs of consciousnesswhere I thought, No, I didn't
realize that. I think probablythe biggest piece is the cancer
(36:19):
diagnosis the last 10 or 15years where you're facing like
for the last, certainly for thelast since 2014 11 years. I see
doctors every few months andthey say, well, you're going to
be it for another two months, orwhatever. You know that that, I
think has changed me and and puta different perspective to life.
Joshua Johnson (36:42):
Do you think that has changed the way that
you follow Jesus in your life,or is it has it changed into
like every day is a gift I'mgonna I'm going to receive the
gift that God has given me. Howdo you think that has has
shifted even your owndiscipleship journey.
Ronald Rolheiser (37:02):
No on first, you know, with the Jesus thing.
You know I am praying now muchmore consciously to be ready to
accept my death when he comes.
You know that I want to do thiswith dignity, with faith, with
whatever you know, like Paulsays, To cross the finish line
like, see, so I pray for thatevery day. And also, it's made
(37:25):
me a whole left, a whole lotless scared of death. I'm, I,
I'm scared of the process ofdying, you know, but, but not of
death itself, you know, like, Ithink that it's, it's made me,
in my prayer, much moreconfident in Jesus and the
Father and the Holy Spirit, andso that you almost look forward
(37:48):
to what's going to be there. Idon't look forward to the
process of getting there, dyingprocess, in any way, from
cancer, whatever is. You know,in fact, sometimes we have a
little joke like to say, like,how do you want to die? I want
to die like Archbishop of Maranabe shot in church. You know
what? It's, it's, it's over in asecond. You know, not die over
(38:10):
two years of cancer and the bodydecaying and so on. But no, it's
definitely brought me closer toJesus and less afraid of death,
more looking forward to meetingJesus. And my prayer right now
is a whole lot intentionally,like, make me ready for this
when he comes now. Ivan Illich,the great philosopher, he once
(38:33):
said, he said, I always pray,said, and let me not miss the
hour of my death. Amen, I don'twant to miss the hour of my own
death, you know. So that's partof my daily prayer now. But the
center there is Jesus, you know,kind of like, what
Joshua Johnson (38:49):
do you think the role of beauty and silence and
contemplation play in learningto see the world with elder
eyes?
Ronald Rolheiser (38:58):
Very important question, like beauty. I just
want to call him on that. Youknow, remember dufte? Yes, he
said, the world will be saved bybeauty. So let's look at beauty
first. Beauty, you know, we sayGod has four attributes, four
transcendent therapeutics. Godis one true, good and beautiful.
(39:18):
So they go by by beauty you areactually you're honoring God.
God is the author. So that'simportant. Silence and
completion are important, butthey need a nuance. Okay, let me
talk about that. You know,Meister Eckhart, a famous,
famous mystic, once said nothingso much approximate the language
(39:42):
of God, as does silence. Hesaid, It's God's language, and
there's some truth in that. Youknow, there are certain things
of soul, inner work you can onlydo in silence. But and while,
particularly the Catholic Churchand mystics have always pushed
that, I say. Have to also becareful with that, and that is
that we need two things. We needsilence and we need community.
(40:06):
So that silence can make you,make you deep, but it can make
you deep in sick ways. TheUnabomber lived in silence can
also make you weird. See yourinteraction with people grounds
you you know, you know itbasically they it keeps your
sanity going. So you need ahealthy need a healthy interplay
(40:28):
with family, with community andso on. And then you need to be
able to pull away. You know, Iworry today about our culture,
where someone's got a phone intheir hand, 24 hours a day, you
know, like they're grounded, butthere's no depth and so on. I
push silence, but with thatcaveat thing, but also make sure
(40:50):
you have good interaction. Toomuch, too much silence and
aloneness can make you weird andand too little of it can make
you superficial and and withoutdepth, that's the paradox. You
need silence for depth. You needcommunity for grounding, for
(41:11):
sanity. I
Joshua Johnson (41:12):
mean, we live in an individualistic society. We
see isolation of older peoplethere. Feels like the community
aspect is is more difficult toengage with in those times the
silence is probably easier toengage with. How can people
outside of the individualperson? How can I see
(41:34):
personally, people that needcommunity, that have been silent
for too long, and move towardsthem. How do we as a culture
move towards each other incommunity instead of being
isolated and alone andindividual?
Ronald Rolheiser (41:50):
Well, it comes back to your other question
again about you're right. It'sjust but today, our problem is
we've isolated these things.
We're doing apartheid. The younglive in one planet, the old live
on another planet. So I think weneed to do some kind of
proactive, intentional, youknow, setting up things, whether
it's a Bible study or dancenight or something where you
(42:14):
it's going to have to beprogrammed, because it's not
happening naturally anymore. Itused to happen naturally. It
live in families and through theparticipants. Participating in
family life, you know, nowthey're given a cat to smoke in
there and so on, which is betterthan nothing. Even like in
ministry, did you get youngpeople to volunteer to go in to
(42:35):
spend a few hours with thesepeople and so on? As a ministry,
Joshua Johnson (42:41):
you did say, and we've been talking about this a
lot in this conversation, thatfaith at the end is not clarity
but surrender, the willingnessto stand inside the darkness and
call it light. So my questionis, If faith is finally about
surrender, the end, what does itmean to live and to die with her
hands open.
Ronald Rolheiser (43:02):
Okay, you got a lot of pieces there. First of
all, let's start surrender. Iwork back to faith. You know,
you know, I'm struck by the verbthat they use when Jesus died in
Mark's gospel, Mark says, Thenhe bowed his head and he gave
over his spirit. Surrender isdifferent than resignation. See,
resignation of despair. Thebully has you penned. And
(43:24):
finally you say, I give up. See,that's not surrender. Surrender
is you're giving it over inlove, and that's the final move
that you got to give yourselfover. But notice you are giving
yourself over. Nobody's twistingyour arm, nobody's it's very
important to distinguishsurrender from resignation. I'm
all left nothing to live for. Imay as well give it over. You
(43:45):
know, somebody said, No, that's,that's a, that's an act of
faith. You know. Now, the secondthing about faith, and again,
this is a piece we try to workwith, a big piece with, with
forest dwelling, and that is, Ithink we, we often mistake faith
for the images we have of faith.
Give you one of my littleanalogies here. I always say,
(44:07):
imagine this. Imagine you're amother fish at the bottom of the
ocean 300 feet down, and thesebaby fish come up and say,
Mother, what is this water?
Everybody talks about, okay,you're 300 feet down. And how do
you give them? Well, today, themother fish could set up a power
(44:27):
projector and show slides ofwater, Niagara Falls, that water
tap or rain. And you know, thesefish would be very intrigued
with these pictures of water.
But notice that's not water.
Those are pictures of water. Youknow, at a certain point, the
mother fish would turn off theprojectors. You know, you've
seen the pictures. That's notwater. Just sit in the water,
let it flow through you, youknow. See, that's faith. See, we
(44:51):
can, can confuse faith with thepictures and with fervor, I
believe it, I believe it, and soon. It's not. That that's bad,
but that's that's not faith.
Faith, of faith is it'ssomething beyond that, and that
is why, precisely, sometimes youget these dark nights where
said, I don't know where theybelieve anymore. You know
something, they've shut theprojector off. You know, all the
(45:12):
pictures, the images we have ofGod, are not God. They're
pictures. So I'll ask you thisquestion, or ask you your
people, you know, imagine youcome home from some church
service or something, and youjust, you really feel like you'd
walk on water. Jesus is real,and so on. And some other night,
you wake up in bed and you starein the ceiling. I don't know if
(45:33):
I can believe in God. I can'timagine God existing, you know.
Does that mean once you have astrong faith and once you have a
weak faith, though, it meansonce you have a strong
imagination, and once you have aweak imagination, see, see, God
is ineffable. You can't imagineGod. You can't speak. You can
know God. And so as we get olderand mature, a lot of times, the
(45:54):
fervor the images become lesshelpful to us, and it can be
very disturbing. Say, God, youknow, I used to have, I used to
be able to walk on water, andnow I can't. You know? No,
you're moving more into theprojectors shutting off. Now
you're just sitting in thewater. As Paul says, In Him, we
live and move and breathe andhave our being. Or the Luke said
(46:16):
that as we get older, we have tounderstand the dynamics of
faith. You know, the mysticscall that dark nights, where
we're basically, and that's theopposite of fervor. No fervor is
real. It's good. You know, like,usually when, when people first,
when we're young, or we'reconverting and so on. You can
get some periods and and theysay, God gives that to you,
(46:39):
that's, that's, that's to getyou started. That's your little
honeymoon in prayer and so on,where you can walk on water. And
then the longer you go, the moreat a certain point that
disappears. And now you're justvisiting your mother, and you
trust the deep things arehappening on the surface. And
then, like your wife, you justshow up. You show up, you know,
(47:00):
and, and, and that's the depthof it, you know, we tend to
confuse faith with theimagination. I can imagine God.
I can picture God. Well, firstof all, you can't, because God
is infinite. I always tellstudents, I'll tell you what
think of this. Think of thehighest number it's possible to
(47:21):
count to. And tell me what itis, you'll never get there. You
know, see, infinity. It has nobeginning, has no end. So you
can't circumscribe it. To thinkGod, you'd have to circumscribe
so theologians say you can knowGod. You know God, but you can't
think God. We can think ofimages of God. We can have a
(47:43):
slide projector on and say, thisis this and but always this,
this is a PowerPointpresentation. Even scripture is
a PowerPoint presentation. Andinspired one about God. God is
still like faith is underneaththat.
Joshua Johnson (48:00):
And so this conversation has been
incredible. I have a couple ofquick questions here at the very
end that I like to ask. And oneis, if you go back to your 21
year old self, what advice wouldyou give
Ronald Rolheiser (48:12):
good question I would give this, stay with it.
Stay with it. Whatever acommitment. You know, make a
commitment. First of all, makesome commitment. You know,
today, a lot of people struggleto make a commitment, you know,
like commit, whether it's to amarriage to whatever, and then,
unless it's completelydysfunctional. So stay with it.
(48:33):
Stay with it. Just don't leaveit because, well, it's not
fulfilling and so on. Keepshowing up. Keep showing up in
your faith and so on. Keep goingto church, keep praying, not
because it's meaningful, becausethat means something. It's
meaningful itself, you know,like, stay with the rituals.
Ritual has held me, you know,that's why I love so much. Like
(48:56):
that line from Bonhoeffer, hesaid, you know, your love is
going to save, save yourmarriage. Your marriage is going
to save your love, you know,see, and your fervor is going to
save your faith. You know, therituals are going to save your
faith. Going to church on Sundayis a ritual, you see, doing it,
you know, you know, and that'sgoing to save us. And some
(49:17):
Sundays, you're in it. SomeSundays, you're not back, you're
forth.
Joshua Johnson (49:20):
Yeah, that's so good. Anything you've been
reading or watching lately, youcould recommend.
Ronald Rolheiser (49:25):
I'm always reading something right now, I'm
actually reading the letters ofDorothy Day, the great Catholic
Booker thing you know, which youknow, pushes me in terms of the
poor. I'm an academic, and Iteach that you teach theology
students. And, you know, we havestreet people come here and I
give them $20 but I don'tdollars, but I don't think
that's what Jesus meant abouthaving real contact with the
(49:47):
poor and so on. But books thattheologically, let me recommend
a couple. Are you familiar withit with a which is they're
popular and they're deep. Sothey're popular and they're
both. They're not simplistic.
Are you familiar with a womancalled Rachel Held Evans
Evangelical, sadly, died at age37 or 38 you know, from a
(50:10):
reaction to an antibiotic, but,but her books, I would recommend
to anybody of any denomination.
You know, she's good as a RomanCatholic, I also like Richard
Rohr, Richard Rohr writings andso on, probably just in terms of
books that that have some depthand are accessible. You know,
(50:31):
there's no sense of like some ofthe theologians. You know, they
say read Karl Barth. When youcan't read Karl Marx, you need
courses on these people, but I'dsay read Rachel How Evans, you
know,
Joshua Johnson (50:44):
excellent well.
And same for the light. Your newbook is available anywhere books
are sold you go. What hope doyou have for this book? What
would you like to like leaveyour readers with?
Ronald Rolheiser (50:56):
Well, first of all, it was one of it's part of
a trilogy. I want people have astructure for spirituality. But
with this, it's as we're aging,there isn't a lot out there for
us. You know, otherwise, youknow they're kicking you out of
the culture that you knowthey're trying to get you into a
seniors home. They're, you know,all your power and stuff is gone
(51:18):
and so on. Unless you're like,those can be the best years of
your life and and you can still,it's interesting Abraham and
Isaac. I mean, Abraham andSarah, they had their real kid
when he was 100 and she was 90.
Maybe you're real Isaac, maybewhen you really need to give to
the world, Josh, it's only goingto happen when you're 80 years
old. You know, like, right now,you're doing some partly good
(51:40):
work, but who knows what the 80year old Joshua can give to the
world. You know, so read thebook and contemplate what's
going to be your post menopausalpregnancy. Or how am I going to
or just more practically, how amI going to resist the getting
angry and bitter as I get older.
(52:04):
How can I understand aging so Idon't get angry and bitter as
they get older and get moremarginalized? Excellent.
Joshua Johnson (52:11):
Well, Father Ron, well, thank you for this
conversation. It was it wasfascinating. It was deep. I
really prayed that a lot ofpeople would get something out
of it, so that they can actuallysurrender, give their deaths
away, that could they could moveinto a place where they could
grow transparently so the lightcan shine through. So thank you
(52:32):
so much. It was
Ronald Rolheiser (52:32):
wonderful.
Thanks to and prayers for yourown work. Joshua, thank you.
Okay. You you.
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