Ep. 359 Sara Billups Returns - Spiritual Practices to Calm Anxiety in Your Body, the Church, and Politics - Shifting Culture

Episode Transcript
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Sara Billups (00:00):
Jesus knew He would be crucified like he knew
that he was being crucified inan empire. He knew that many
people would be murdered orwould feel lost, but he still
said, do not worry. He stillsaid, Father, Your will be done.
And that is indifference. And tome, that is the perfect
companion towards work that Ithink we're called to do,
towards service and care for theleast of these. You know, to me,

(00:21):
it feels like personal work thatwe can do to then strengthen us
to do outward work. Hello and

Joshua Johnson (00:39):
welcome to the shifting culture podcast in
which we have conversationsabout the culture we create and
the impact we can make. We longto see the body of Christ look
like Jesus. I'm your host.
Joshua Johnson, we live in ananxious age. The weight of the
world sits in our bodies, ourminds racing, our hearts
tightening, our spiritsrestless. In her new book,
nervous system spiritualpractices to calm anxiety in

(01:00):
your body, the church andpolitics, Sarah Billups helps us
name that restlessness anddiscover a gentler way today,
Sarah returns to shiftingculture to talk about Holy
indifference, caregiving, theanxiety that runs through our
churches and our systems, andhow practices like the
contemplative practices ofIgnatius can help us live with

(01:20):
presence and peace. We explorewhat it means to let go of
control, to find God in ourbodies and to live with trust
even when everything around usfeels uncertain. So join us for
a conversation that movestowards ease of soul. Here's my
conversation with SarahPhillips, Sarah, welcome back to
shifting culture. So excited tohave you back on thanks.

It's so good to be here. I can't believe it's been
a couple of years.

Yeah, it's been, like three years. It's been a
long time, and I've been reallylooking forward to this, because
I don't know, but I actuallylike you, and it

Unknown (01:57):
was feelings are mutual. Thanks. And so I've been
looking forward

to this. I was like, hey, it's nice to have
Sarah back on. I've beenfollowing your work from afar as
you've been working on nervoussystems, and seeing what you've
been doing as you've been goingthrough your doctoral program,
as you are writing. How has thisshaped? I know you worked on it
through your doctoral program.
Yeah? Why nervous systems? Whyanxiety? Why is this something

(02:24):
that you wanted to tackle? Yeah?

I mean, I I started, you're right. I started
writing this book in my demonprogram. That's Doctor of
Ministry. My kids love sayingmom has a demon. They think
that's hilarious. It never getsold. I did a program at the
Peterson Center for Christianimagination at Western and got a
demon in the sacred art ofwriting. And so I began to think

(02:49):
about various topics in thatprogram. I was thinking about
the idea of holiness, and thatreally just means being set
apart. But I wasn't getting anylift. I had a lot of false
starts, but I really startedwriting in those years about
being in the sandwichgeneration, about caregiving,
about my own kind of changingbody at midlife, thinking about

(03:10):
wellness culture. So really, Ijust started writing a lot about
my own experience in my own bodyand in the body of my parents
with anxiety. So that becamesort of a mildly literary way to
begin the exploration. But then,as the world continued to have
many twists and turns how it'sbeen, it's been such a hard time
to be alive, I began toregardless, I began to realize

(03:30):
how there are systemicanxieties, there are church
anxieties, there is such apalpable anxiety in our
politics, more than ever, morethan when nervous systems came
out a few years ago, so began tokind of map this idea of this
book called nervous systems,about sort of collective and
individual anxiety, and here weare.

So where did it move for you, like maybe the
first time, or the beginning,from the individual feeling
anxiety in my body and thenrecognizing that we have
communal anxiety, systemicanxiety in our systems. Yeah.

I mean, I think that, I think that the first
link was church, because, youknow, I mean, again, with that
first book, Joshua, so manypeople that I know and love and
that everybody around me knowsand loves are having a
complicated relationship withchurch, if they identify as a
Christian, I just saw more andmore brokenness and people
leaving. So the first kind ofthread from my own experience to

(04:29):
collective anxiety was reallythrough church, my own church
story, and then just thinkingabout the intense splintering
and division within AmericanChristianity that has now become
quite politicized more thanever. And so I began to kind of
write a little bit about my ownexperience going to the same
church for 21 years, and thenalso looking around a little bit
more broadly. I

guess you walk through a little bit in your
introduction at the end, youbasically said, When Jesus says,
Do not worry. Basically, yousay, hey. I My anxiety is still
there, but God is with me andhis presence, and I'm able to be
present where you're holdingyour anxiety today, in your

(05:11):
body.

Yeah, spoiler alert. The end of the the big
reveal was in the first chapter.
Oh gosh, yeah. I think thatthat, that verse My whole life
has has played, has kind ofplagued me, if I'm honest, the
idea of not where I under. Ihave heard many sermons. I
understand there is nuancedcontext in the original language
around what Jesus may mean by.
Do not worry. I under. Iunderstand some of those things

(05:35):
without being a scholar, but thetruth is the sort of simplicity,
and if you imagine Jesus sayingthose words, and the complexity
of feeling up being a person inan anxious body like that,
tension became this central painpoint, and it really has been
since I was a kid. I mean, mydad was anxious. I was worried
over, I'm sure my mom waspregnant. I'm sure I was worried

(05:58):
over as a baby. I mean, some ofus just come from families where
anxiety is just very, verypresent and just genetically I
was thought a little bit aboutepigenetics and my dad's side
and my Jewishness and, you know,so I think it's always been
there. And something prettyprofound happened, which really
is where the book leads, is Ihave this experience of, like a

(06:20):
lot of people understandingcontemplative practices. And
then also, I did this nine monthIgnatian retreat, the ignition,
spiritual exercises, which endedup being, in a way that still
surprises me, a kind of huge,huge moment where I began to
understand my anxiety a littlebit differently. Something
really did shift. So the waythat it is now. I mean, I'll

(06:40):
answer that in two ways, likeone, I'm bringing a book into
the world, and that is immenselyfreaky, because talk about, I
mean, anxiety is typicallyrooted in wanting to have
control and not having it. Andso you work for like, three
years in the basement onsomething, and then wonder how
it may or may not be received.
That's a very tender place. So Ithink I probably have, like,
Project anxiety right now, butin a broader sense, I do feel

(07:01):
like I think about it a littlebit differently, and that's
really because of this idea ofIgnatian indifference, or holy
indifference, which I talk aboutin the book, this idea of
whatever the binary might be, along life or a short one.
Ignatius says fame or disgrace,health or sickness, whatever,
whatever is on the left hand orthe right hand. Is there a way

(07:21):
to only have the ability tochoose the things that glorify
God, to want those things toreceive them, whatever they may
be? And so that concept that Iwrite about, I think about every
day, multiple times a day. Ithink about that all the time.
So today, my anxiety feelsdifferent in that light, a
little bit lessened, or I have,like, a broader perspective,
like a bigger story around it, Iguess,

like in this conversation right now, you have
probably things that are on yourmind, of caregiving, you
figuring out what's going onwith your family. You got a book
release coming out like soyou're in the middle of that
what's going on. So it's work,and there seems to be probably
around you all things that youcan worry about, that are out of

(08:08):
your control, that you can'tcontrol in this conversation at
the moment. So for peoplewondering, how do we you be
present in something like this,in this conversation, and not
worry about what you can'tcontrol at the moment, but be
here with me, with the audience,and actually, yeah, be present

(08:28):
in it.

Gosh, I love that question. I was thinking about
that this morning a little bit.
So in the so the book is calledspiritual practices to calm
anxiety and the body. Church andpolitics, one of the first
things, and I'm answering thisfirst one about the body, since
that's very much what we'retalking about in our mind, is
really this idea ofunderstanding embodiment
differently. I mean, I thinkthat as a woman that is on

(08:52):
Instagram and like understandswellness culture and thinks a
lot about those dynamics, likethe idea I have in my mind, or
have had for many years, of theembodied person is maybe
somebody doing a forest bath.
Maybe they're wearing like alinen, like tunic, you know what
I mean, like? Maybe they'relike, barefoot. But the way that

(09:15):
I am, my own disposition, theway many of us are practically
trying to, like, put dinner onthe table and shower and dress
and and function and live lifewhen things are busy or crazy,
that feels very impractical. Sothe the idea of embodiment and
practicing that versus thereality of my life became began
to make me think, what is thisreally about? How can I

(09:35):
understand it differently? Andso I began to do different
things. I began to walk. There'sa long loop around the place
where I live. It's like a 45minute loop. I just like two
things. One, I began to move mybody in a way that was not
because I was trying to exerciseor I was just trying to, like,
move and get out of my head. Sothis morning, I moved my body

(09:56):
before we talked. I stretched,which I know sounds very. Very
like middle aged lady, butseriously, like, I just
stretched my stretched out for10 minutes, and it was awesome.
And then I listened to music.
Like, I think that in themornings, specifically, I mean,
we're talking at 1030 I used tothink I'm going to pray, I'm
going to get it done, I'm goingto check the box, I'm going to
have quiet time. It's just somuch less anxious. Now I listen
to music. I put on, like, rainbackground. I just notice

(10:21):
things. I just might sit and tryto sense God's love or a sense
of God's presence. I just let itbe really open and take a fear
out of it. There's no sense ofdriving accomplishment. I just
try to really be in touch withmyself and just look around a
little bit more. So that answeris not necessarily specific, but
it's actually, it's actuallyvery much changed how I think

(10:41):
about what that means to bepractically embodied in a very
kind of busy season. I suppose,

when I think about anxiety, I think about
worry, but I also meld ittogether with fear. Is fear and
anxiety? Are they cousins? Howdo they work together? And what
is maybe the difference betweenfear and anxiety and like, what

is? Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I think
that, I think maybe it's a bitof a chicken and an egg thing,
Joshua, I don't really know, butI think that they both trigger
similar reactions in our nervoussystems and in our body. There's
this kind of need to kind ofclench down, or to be defensive,
or to have our feathers ruffled,because we're really sensing to

(11:25):
say, this kind of primal idea ofdanger, right? I mean, an
anxiety response. Anxiety is notsomething it's something we all
have. It's not necessarily a badthing. It's a fight or flight
thing. It's like a cave personthing, where we want to make
sure that we're protected andsafe. So that impulse is
something that I think ishealthy and protective, but I
think that fear is a feelingagainst something we might

(11:48):
specifically understand or beable to identify, whereas
anxiety can be this generalsense of dread, it can be very
existential, at least it is forme. I mean, sometimes we can
worry about our job security ora test, something that's
practical, but for a lot of us,I think it can be a little bit
more fuzzy and harder to kind ofpin down, kind of like trying to

(12:10):
pin down a cloud, like my friendCameron says, so I think that's,
that's kind of a little bit ofthe difference, or how I think
about

it, yeah, I think dread is, is a helpful

Unknown (12:19):
word. Like it feels

like, it feels like there's a lot of dread,
right? There's a dread here, inour in our families, there's a
dread in the church, there's adread in politics. There's dread
in our country, and this dread,we have to figure out a way to
live in it where it doesn'tcontrol us and move us. And for
you, what you said that wasreally helpful, right? Is

(12:44):
getting to Holy indifference. Sothat means that these spiritual
exercises were really helpfulfor you. What made you move
towards the spiritual exercisesto say that, I want to engage
this. I want to do this. Whatwas it about the Ignatius
spirituality, or spiritual

totally. Yeah. I mean, you know, so So Grace, in
about 2015 the church I've goneto forever, along with a lot of
churches in that time, becamereally interested in
contemplative practices. We'dalways been pretty liturgical.
Back then, we werePresbyterians. Now we're
Anglicans, but that's a wholeother story. But, but we'd been,
you know, interested incontemplative things. Around

(13:24):
2014 a woman named Debbie tackeySmith came to our congregation
as our spiritual formationdirector. I had never heard of
things like lettuce Divina orlistening prayer in the same she
just really introduced things ina way that felt warm and safe.
And, you know, like a lot ofevangelicals, I was raised
thinking that Catholic practicesare probably questionable, and

(13:45):
maybe Catholics aren'tChristians. You know, it's not
news to many of us listening,I'm sure. So I just hadn't
really understood that there wassuch a depth of thinking about
how to meet God in differentways. And so I began to, you
know, go through to go todirection we did, kind of things
that, I mean, I'm an Enneagramfor I have a lot of feeling
like, if you, if you're a personthat has a lot of imagination,
you're probably a anxious, butthe flip side of that means that

(14:08):
you probably have somecreativity, or where you can,
like, in prayer, visualizethings. So meeting with Debbie,
we did all kinds of cool stuff,like we would do this room of
the heart prayer, which, again,Joshua is like a Gen X or
cynical person. That soundedvery like suspicious to me, but
it was such a beautifulexperience where she would say,
visualize where God might bemeeting you. What does that room

(14:29):
look like? What are you sayingto Jesus in that room? It's it
was very impactful. So I hadbeen kind of curious about going
a little bit deeper for years.
Around 2018 some folks fromGrace started a spiritual
direction, kind of house calledSoul care Seattle, where people
can come for half day retreatsand or direction. Every year
they lead a circle of folks inthe Ignatian exercises. I knew

(14:51):
about this. Avoided it for yearsbecause I knew it was kind of a
big deal, a big commitment. Theexercises you know. SP, there's,
it's considered a retreat. Andso historically, people would go
away for 30 days to some kind ofmonastic setting and experience
this really intense series ofprayers and contemplations. And

(15:12):
I, of course, as a person livingin America with a job and kids,
that's not possible for most ofus, so they have a modified
version at soul care. So I wentthrough a nine month version of
the retreats called the 19thannotation, where I would pray
for an hour or so a morning fornine months and then meet with
my director once a week. So Iavoided it because I thought,

(15:32):
what if I'm not going to be ableto do it well, or what if I'm
not perfect about it? I mean,the truth is, it was remarkably
powerful and cool, and sometimesit was half an hour, and that's,
that's real life, you know?

So just take me through some of these exercises
that you think were helpful foryou to walk you through that.
What are

they? Yeah, I mean, the there's four different
kind of chapters. You kind of gothrough so many interesting
exercises. The first is reallyaround creation, and you
consider your own life and yourown family. There's a whole hell
unit, which sounds prettyfreaky, where you just really
think about the idea ofdesolations and what life might
be like without God. You kind ofmove through the story. The

(16:18):
exercises ended around Easter,around the resurrection, so it
moves towards this kind oftriumph and end. And so during
that time, there's a lot of timefor journaling, there's a lot of
time for prayer. There's a wholekind of pattern that you follow
of for listening prayer, whichstarts by silence, by sensing
God's love. Maybe youcontemplate a verse. There's
various other readings Ignatiusintroduces that you spend time

(16:40):
with. There's, let's see, I'mtrying to think of a couple of
examples. There's this exerciseabout the kind of gross or
unguarded soul that was reallyinteresting, and I'm trying to
remember how to say it. Well,it's the idea that the soul is
prone to sin, but Ignatiusargues that scruples are people
that are trying to kind ofmaintain some sort of purity or

(17:01):
sort of resistance, may actuallybe more prone to it, like this
idea of the delicate soul iswhere the enemy of the soul, as
he says, may strike. So there'sinteresting kind of
contemplations around this ideaof desolation and consolation
God being close or or not. Andthen, even if you feel like
you're in a sense of a season ofconsolation where God's close

(17:21):
being on guard for sort of thedelicate soul, as Ignatius says,
to be struck. There's a lot ofinteresting experiences around
language and sort of an olderway of saying things, an older
kind of nomen culture. The goal,of course, is just that the soul
would find moderation not toodelicate or gross in that
example. So it was a lot ofreally getting myself familiar
with a different kind oflanguage, a different way of

(17:43):
thinking about the soul andunderstanding it. So that's just
just a little bit.

So where do you think that the church has felt
anxiety? Where does anxiety seepin to the church? I mean, I see
fear driven things throughevangelicalism pretty easily.
Like, like, it's all about fear,and fear drives most things. But
what, what have you seen asanxiety, like, church anxiety?

(18:09):
Yeah.

I mean, I think about how with the
congregational or denominationallevel, that splintering that is
happening is continuing tohappen. I mean, again, even now
with an Anglicanism this week,lots of headlines. It's just
sort of non stop. These thingsare so often. I think anxiety
response is how we feel aboutthem. And I think about various

(18:31):
hot button issues. I thinkabout, I don't know gender and
sexuality, about covid andmasks, whatever kind of the
cultural issue is of the day,there's just a clear kind of
river of anxiety, under all ofthat that I think silos us and
prevents us from kind ofreaching across different and so
I don't know, I think there'salso just a lot more cynicism
and distrust. And I get it. If Iwas a person that hadn't found

(18:55):
myself in a congregation I'veexperienced to be healthy, and I
see this with so many friends, Iwould have so much sort of like
cynicism, distrust tiptoeinginto a church, if I was trying
to consider what that might belike, or if I would look at the
headlines, and if I would seehow the language of nationalism
has just kind of melted into thelanguage of evangelicalism, I

(19:18):
would think, I don't want muchto do with that. I don't
understand it feels like power,and a lot of isms are being
propped up, as opposed toservice of people that are the
most in need of it. So I thinkthere's just a lot of rightful
cynicism, and so I think thatwe've just like doubled down on
this need to declare ideologicalconformity and believing the

(19:40):
same things, and it's reallycaused a lot of anxiety. So I
think that then, if you're notgoing to church, it's just
easier to stay home, if you seehow the media portrays it, at
least. But I have found to be Ihave found it to be true that
there are wonderful exceptions,and that gives me at least a
little bit of hope. There'salways exceptions. There's
always a couple exceptions.
Don't make the headlines. It'snot like they don't make the

(20:01):
headlines. Yeah, it's not likechurch volunteers that community
garden with immigrants andrefugees. It's like, nope, not
an interest, not a clickbaityone. I

was having a conversation with my wife. I
mean, we're we were talkingabout, oh, all the mess within,
you know, church leadership andall of this. And I said, there
are really good churches, andthere are really good people,
and there are people that arefaithfully following the way of
Jesus, and it gives me hope. Butit does seem like there is

(20:30):
something within the system thatproduces a lot of this anxiety.
Even if they're trying to befaithful, they move towards a
faithfulness, towards afaithfulness towards anxiety,
and not a faithfulness towardsJesus, just because it's in the
system, it's part of what theywere raised in. And go, Oh, that

(20:51):
looks that's faithful to it.
That's right. How do werecognize some of that?

You know, there's this way in which I think we're
set to be uncomfortable in theright way. There's a way in
which I can tell, I can discernwithin me that I am being called
to something uncomfortable. ButI know that there's a goodness
there, that the way of Jesusrequires that, and that that, to
me, is just a pretty naturalfilter. If I go to a church for
a little while, it doesn't takeif I visit a church, it doesn't

(21:18):
take long to sort of sense.
Who's that like? I still believethat it is possible that the
church is one of the brightspots in our country, where we
can meet across difference. Andthis is the thing I mean, in the
last few years since I wroteorphaned believers, I feel like
if I say something online whereI'm saying Jesus says love
everybody, it means that I musthate people, or it's just there

(21:41):
is so little room for fornuance. There is so little room.
But if I say something that Ithink is a basic, true Christian
tenant, that is uncomfortable,and I think that means there's
something good there. So I thinkI just, I'm trying to move
towards basic true good things,kind of like Whole Foods or
vitamins, things that we know tobe true and good, and if I can
see that there is a pull towardsthat, that culturally, there's

(22:03):
some kind of confusion. I knowthere's usually something
really, really good there. Youknow, it was kind of floaty, but
that's the best I can verbalize.

It is a little floaty. And for some people
raised in evangelical churchesand have said you can't trust
your feelings. You can't trustwhat you actually feel like. You
can't be embodied like thisanxiety, like, so how can we
trust our emotions? Like, I knowis there? Like, can we

Yeah, I think that there's a I think a lot of
people, when they are anxious,think that we we lead with our
head. And so if our body'sfeeling something, it's not to
be trusted. And of course, thatgets into, you know, some
Gnosticism stuff. There's alsothe idea of, you know, purity
culture, and we're told that weneed to kind of resist desire or
resist things that arefulfilling or carnal. There's a

(22:57):
carnality that's sometimesbrought up when we think about
the body. And so I think thathowever Jesus was embodied, we
are embodied creatures. Ourspirit and soul and body are
very much entwined. And I thinkthere's a really healthy way to
pay attention to those things. Ithink that that's usually right.

(23:17):
I think that something elsethat's been important to me is
discernment and being able totake time, for example, in the
exercises, if I felt like, oh,maybe God said something, I just
hold it lightly and loosely andI pray about it. I might talk to
trusted friends about it. Ithink it's the same way with the
body. If my body is sensingsomething is wrong here, or this
does feel like a thing whereJesus is moving, I take time and

(23:40):
I step back and I say, God, I'msensing this. Is this really
what I feel like you're tryingto say, like, I just think that
that's where wisdom and maturityas Christians and bringing in
other people to pray with us,discern with us, walk with us,
is a way to kind of test what wemay be feeling, to make sure
that we acknowledge feelings,but then give them time to kind

(24:00):
of either set or to kind ofdissipate, I guess.

I mean, let's, like move into that a little
bit. And you know, for some wehave mental health issues where
we we need some help and help inothers. And so sometimes we have
to move in a differentdirection. Sometimes what's
happening in the body issomething that needs to be dealt

(24:26):
with. And sometimes doctors are,like, dismissive of what you
feel in the body and think thatsomething else, and I don't
know, like, how do wedistinguish and help people, you
know, with with mental healthstuff, and then trusting our
bodies and knowing what is goingon.

I mean, one way I can answer that is as a parent,
you know, because I have ananxious kid, I write about that
a little bit that wasinteresting to to think about
how to do well, I try to writeabout my experience parenting a
kid that's anxious. But my sonin sixth grade was diagnosed
with OCD, specifically moralOCD, sort of scrupulosity. It
wouldn't people might think ofOCD as being more like light

(25:10):
light fixtures going on and off,or people washing their hands a
lot. But for some kids, it's aor for some people, it's more
about ruminations and interiorthoughts. And so the first thing
that we did was like, take himseriously and believe him. This
applies to your question,because it applies to friends
and it applies to how we thinkabout ourselves. We also were
gentle with ourselves, trying tounderstand how to love him well,

(25:32):
and we were gentle with him, butwe felt a sense of chaos,
confusion and like we were outof control of of our life in a
little while. For a little whilethere, there was just, I
remember one day where I just,like, we had gotten him to
school, and we knew somethingwas really wrong. He was really
not himself, and I just was,went in the kitchen Joshua. I

(25:52):
just, like, sat on the floor,and I just thought, something is
wrong and I need help. I calledmy friend. I said, I don't know
what to do. Please. You know sheshe was, she had a kid with
something similar going on. Shewas really encouraging, but
quickly it became clear that weneeded to seek some kind of more
support. And so we did, youknow, we found a therapist that
has been amazing, and we beganto have language to understand.

(26:14):
Because the other thing I wouldsay is that it is so easy to
feel like you're the only one orthat, especially with certain
anxiety or disorders or OCD orsome thoughts just seem so wild
or like so like singular thatclearly, no, it's I feel like
it's easy to kind of be singledout, or feel like run around.
And so being able to then havelanguage to explain to our kid

(26:37):
and explain to ourselves, oh,this is what's going on. And
there are many people whoexperienced this was like a
whole like paradigm shift. Atthat point, we really were able
to see a way forward. So I thinkthat taking it seriously, being
kind and also trying tounderstand that there, I don't
know that I've come across aperson that has not had some
kind of something going on, orthere has not been a community

(26:58):
around them, if they've looked alittle bit for them, experiences
something similar.

It's almost counterintuitive. In our culture
of saying we have to that's partof the control, like what, what
I need to do here is I need tocontrol the outcome. I need to
do the right thing. And it's allon me. It's on my shoulders.
Part of what Jesus was talkingabout, and do not worry, I
believe, is that he's talking toa communal culture, which a

(27:22):
community. He's talking to acommunity, not just individuals
totally and how do we shed someof that individualism and
control, like it's all on me,and there is community. You said
there is community. If we lookfor it, it's right there. It's
right around us.

And that's in that is in health, what the church
could be or should be. Andsometimes, I think, is that to
do that, to move towardscommunity, means a couple of
things. It means a lot of shamecan come up, a lot of
embarrassment. We are reallygood at managing image, and that
can be like a pretty crushing,scary thing, because that is
really at its root. Talkingabout it with people, is about

(28:01):
acceptance, or will I be seendifferently? Will my kid or my
family be seen differently? Beseen differently? Will I be
judged? So the vulnerability ofthat is a big deal, but I'm
convinced that that is a wayforward. The other thing, the
second thing, is that it couldbe the news could be held in
hands of a bad actor, or ifsomeone that doesn't know what
to do, or if somebody with a lotof assumptions about whatever

(28:24):
the situation is. I mean, look,growing up in evangelicalism, a
lot of us were told thattherapy, for example, if we're
just still talking about thatfor a minute, is not for us. Or,
like, maybe if something'sreally, really bad, we can go,
maybe you go to a Christiancounselor. But like, you know,
even till today, like my dad. Wejust a couple weeks ago had a
big discussion about this, andhe said, I mean, he needs

(28:45):
people. He has chosen a lifewhere he has not sought kind of
help for his own anxiety, wherehe has friends but not really
like that. And so now as hiskid, I'm kind of receiving or
hearing a lot of those messagesand telling him, like, you need
to be able to talk to someoneelse about these things. And so
I think that if early in life,we have the support systems
around us that we can build up,it really is a deposit into kind

(29:07):
of our future. And if we thinkabout being parents, how we may
or may not rely on our kids, andit feels like a really difficult
thing to do. And I guess this isthe other thing, if I've ever
reached out towards communityand known that, if it is true
that if the church carries eachother, if there are seasons of
doubt, we carry each other, if,like the communion line, there
are saints before and after us,and we're a part of this family

(29:29):
of faith, like, if Jesus isactually working within
communities, then I may feelembarrassed, I may feel shame, I
may I may feel like I did notfind the right person that can
hold this but eventually, likewhere the trajectory is towards
community and health and healingand that we're all collectively
holding each other in theseseasons.

I mean, that's the choice that we have as a
collective as a whole. If I'mthinking about my country at the
moment, I have a choice ofholding our anxieties together
and. Doubling down on our fearand mistrust of each other, or I
can hold a space where we are inthis together, and we can move
towards each other like thoseare two things I could hold, and

(30:12):
I get to choose what I hold. Andwe all, as people in this crazy
country right now, get tochoose,

yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about the the idea of
the slippery slope, as you'resaying. This, the idea that if
we are, if our hands are open,if we do move towards each other
across difference, that meansthat we have to hold difference
of opinions. We have to we haveto talk about these issues
where, oh, if she believes womenshould be in leadership or
preaches, that means, must meanshe's a step away from losing

(30:41):
her faith or from not beingOrthodox, it is so easy. We just
want to divide each otherbecause we want to feel safe and
like we're okay. So the idea ofmoving from a posture like that
towards one of wells, notfences, you know, this idea that
the church can be a place wherewe're not trying to lock people
in, to kind of keep them fencedin because we're scared that

(31:01):
they might get out and and falloff a cliff. But the idea that
instead of the anxiety responsethat Jesus draws us to this well
of life and goodness, thatthere's something there and we
can relax, I think, is reallydifficult, especially for a lot
of us that were raised in anevangelical church like I was,
you know, but I think that wewant to shepherd people to
Jesus, rather than worryingabout keeping them within a

(31:23):
boundary. I think if Jesus istrue and good, then there's a
real rest that can come there.
And that's something that I'vebeen trying to practice in my
own life in the last coupleyears. I think one

of the ways that you said you could practice this
and to hold things open is holyindifference. And can you
explain it for people, becauseindifference, to me, feels like
I'm just checking out. Yeah,totally can feel like I'm
checking out. So what is holyindifference, and how is that
helpful for

us? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's that. So there's, I
think of the hymn it is wellwith my soul, I think of Jesus
saying Your will be done in theLord's Prayer in the garden is a
perfect example of indifference.
Or I love st Teresa of Lesotho'smorning offering where she says
to accept the joys and sorrowsof this passing life. It's this
idea that I think that peopleconfuse indifference with

(32:13):
checking out because they don'tunderstand. I think that it is
this essential tool towards usdoing the work of justice, of
service, the idea of coming toletting the it's coming to the
posture, the ability of saying,God, do what you want to do,
whatever that means, even if theoutcome feels difficult or hard,
is something that's reallydifficult. But I do think that

(32:34):
Jesus knew He would be crucifiedlike he knew that he was being
crucified in an empire. He knewthat many people would be
murdered or would feel lost, buthe still said, do not worry. He
still said, Father, Your will bedone. And that is indifference.
And to me, that is the perfectcompanion towards work that I
think we're called do toward todo towards service and care for

(32:55):
the least of these. You know, tome, it feels like personal work
that we can do to thenstrengthen us to do outward
work.

Let's move towards a practical example to
figure out what holyindifference looks like in
caregiving. I'll just give youan example for from my life. You
know, my mother in law livedwith us up until she passed away
about a year and a half ago, andyou know, at the end, she was,
you know, she's not eating,she's, you know, losing weight.

(33:25):
She's doing these things. Whathappens, especially with my
wife, is the primary caregiverthere to her mother is, hey, she
my wife is scared that she'sgoing to lose her mom, and she
wants to hold on, right? So shewants to hold on, and she wants
to control this situation,because we don't want to lose

(33:46):
her, like we want her around.
And we see that something canactually help in situations
where really, like, the onlything that you could do is be
with and be present, and wecould let go is holy
indifferent? How is thatpossible? Because this is the
most personal, hardest thing.
It's so

hard, gosh. I mean, I talk about this in the
book, but I understand some ofthose dynamics so much
personally in this own season inmy life. I mean, if, if holy
indifference is essentially thisspiritual posture of letting go,
of saying that I can be open andreceive whatever you whatever
you do, God, whatever theoutcome is. Then there are these

(34:27):
actual, real life, difficultsituations like you just
described, where you love aperson so much that you don't
want to let them go. Butsometimes you sense that it's
more about like, more about youor what you need. I think about
situations where maybe a lovedone is is towards the end of
life, and my dad right now isvery much in in the end stages

(34:49):
of advanced cancer. And I thinkabout how there's often family
member that might say, you'vegot to keep, you've got to keep
fighting or like, don't letusing language like you've let,
don't let go. But really that'soften more about the person than
it is about the actual patient,than the loved one. And so I
think that indifference frees usto kind of notice our own, our

(35:11):
own need, to hold on, you know,and then lets us focus more on
what the person we love reallyneeds. And so my my dad right
now, just specific, just acouple weeks ago. You know, he's
been through maybe eightdifferent treatments from
multiple myeloma, a blood cancerthat's not curable. His numbers
kind of come down when he's inan immunotherapy, and then they
go up again when it stopsworking. So he's at the point

(35:32):
now where, I mean, eight or ninetreatments in his body is just
kind of done. And so he has todecide, I mean, Joshua, we have,
like, an oncologist appointmentnext week where I think we're
going to have the conversation,because the palliative care
piece has kind of been comingup, but I think that we're going
to have the conversation wherethey'll say, Tom, we can keep
trying, but your body isshutting down, and you need to
make a decision about what todo. And like the idea of being

(35:54):
at that point with this personthat that you love, like this
person that you've been with andthat has raised you, and then
you're in this position ofcaring for them, and then they
say to you, and my dad has saidthis other times, what do you
think I should do? It's like, Ijust want to love you through
whatever, whatever you want todo. Dad, like indifference lets
me do that, instead of tellinghim what my, like, my my own

(36:16):
self, would say, which is,please don't leave. I don't want
to let you go. I love you. Ican't it. Just it frees me to
focus on him and what he needsand how to have him have the
best final months of his life.
Oh, gosh, but it's so hard. It'sso hard. It

is so hard. It is hard on the patient. I mean,
it was like, I know my mother inlaw, wanted to hold on as much
as possible. She didn't want tolet go, until she finally said
to my wife, I'm ready. Yeah, Ithink I'm ready. And you know,
that was a few days before shewent, and that was not like it

(36:52):
was the holding on, and it was afew days earlier, like I could
tell, like she was holding on tosomething, and I felt like I was
I was here. I could picture asshe's laying in the bed, and I
said to I said, Mitzi, I willtake care of Meredith. I'll take
care of your grandson. I'll takecare of freeing like i You don't

(37:12):
have to worry anymore. I willtake care of it. It's not on
you. I will do it. I mean, andthat was, that was

kind of bodily reaction news. I just felt like
myself relaxing hearing you sayyour mother in law, my gosh,
yeah, it's a profound gift.

It felt like that was a shift, and that was a
change. It was like, Okay,there's something I could
actually let go. I can release.
That's so good. Yeah. I mean, Imean, we're talking about very
precious moments in family, butthis is what if we just go into
our everyday lives? And the waywe do it is, how do we give
permission to people to be ableto see holy indifference in

(37:49):
their life, and to be able tolet go and to say, Okay, it's
not actually all on me and myshoulders, because really, we're
all just like anxiety balls.
We're all scared. We're all justlittle kids scared. In this
world.

It's such a it's such a relief. I mean, this is
so here's, I think it starts bynoticing it comes up all the
time. I'd say every day. There'sanother kind of tiny moment for
me to practice indifference. Buthere's a, here's a practical one
that is very different than whatwe were just talking about with
end of life and caregiving. Solike we're talking right now
because I'm bringing this bookinto the world, and as an

(38:30):
author, that's a pretty wild youknow, again, I mentioned, like,
I'm just kind of, you writesomething and then you have to
talk about it all the time.
Authors are typicallyintroverts, but the idea that
whatever happens with this book,if it sells like hotcakes, if it
doesn't sell any copy, likewhatever happens, like letting
go of the emotion of that, ofthe pride of it, just believing
that the process of writing itwas meaningful and worthwhile,

(38:52):
and the outcome of how itperforms is not attached to
Like, the worth of the book, andthat God can do what he wants to
do with this book has been, Imean, that is just to be honest.
The the weird part is thatwriting this book and then
talking about indifference andthen trying to bring it into the
world, there have been manytimes where that's felt really

(39:13):
challenging to me. So I'mpractically thinking about it in
kind of a meta way right now.
It's kind of a funny, a funnytwist. But I've been, I had a
talk with drew my husband lastnight about this very thing, and
I said, I have, I just have tolet it, let it be. I have to let
it go. And I can sense that I'mtrying to, like, hold on for
control. Maybe if I pitchanother op ed, or maybe if I ask

(39:36):
somebody for, like, it's just alot of striving and a lot of a
lot of anxiety when reallythere's this call to just let it
be, and then I can sense acertain rest, so then I kind of
turn towards that posture. Sothat's been like a daily
practical thing lately.

Yeah, well well done. And keep keep it up, keep
going, because this is God'sasking you to be in it. You
know, one, one name that. Comesup a few times in your book that
you got a lot out of is NickCave and joy, finding joy in
suffering and in that what, whatdid you learn through this

(40:12):
process there from Nick Cave,voice that we can learn from
man.

So he has, he has this, this sort of, it's not a
substack. He has somethingcalled the Red Hand files. I
think many listeners would havecome across it. It's just a
series of folks that write inquestions that he'll answer.
And, you know, I'm a Gen Xer. Ikind of knew about his band the
birthday party for a long timewhen I was growing up, and I
knew that he sang that song onthe Harry Potter soundtrack,

(40:40):
where they sing, where they wereHarry and Hermione dance at the
end, about the kids on thetrain. Like I, I just had sort
of known a little bit about him,but when I learned a little bit
more about his life, how he haslost two sons, has had immense,
incredible grief. In the worstway, you think about losing a
parent, which is incrediblypainful, but there is, in this
way, a natural order. Youimagine that in many cases, your

(41:02):
parent will pass, but the factthat in two on two occasions,
Nick Cave has lost a child, theway that he writes about that
his creative expression as aperson that appreciates
esthetics and beauty andnoticing the way that he
expresses that, and the way thathe talks about how it is
precisely that joy and sufferingare the same side, are opposite
sides of the same coin, andthat's a fully experienced life.

(41:25):
We have to understand somethingabout suffering. He talks about
it with a fearlessness that Ithink is incredibly inspiring,
and also the way that he talksabout there was a Christa
Tippett interview that I writeabout in the book that was just
very profound, where he talksabout experiencing God and a
cathedral and holiness. He talksabout, prophetically, talks

(41:46):
about faith in the church in away that I think a lot of us
could learn from, even though Idon't know that he would call
himself a Christian, so I'vejust been very he feels like a
prophetic voice right now, in avery unexpected way. Are you a
fan?

By the way, I am a fan of Nick Cave. Nick fan and
Nick Cave. I think, I think it'simportant to actually find some
prophetic voices in the midstof, you know, our our world now,
that actually can point us to aplace of hope and say there is
joy in suffering, like we couldfind the joy that even though

(42:20):
our world is full of suffering.
We need to find those propheticvoices. I want to know here now,
as we get closer to the end, iswhere we started. At the
beginning is that you still holdanxiety in your body. Our
systems hold anxiety. Ourpolitical systems hold anxiety.
What is going to help us andwhat helps you knowing that,

(42:42):
hey, there's presence with us.
Yep, that's right, what helps usat the end,

a couple of things come to mind. The first, and
this isn't something that Iwrite about explicitly, but
something that I have thoughtabout in the months since
writing the book, is how the theidea, looking at politics in the
church, that things may continueto fall apart, like there comes
a point where you sort ofcontrol doesn't feel like that

(43:13):
great. If anxiety is typically aresponse to want to be in
control and to not be uncertain.
Like there's this way in whichcertainty becomes less plausible
and less possible, and maybeeven not the point. And I think
that that is something I'mtrying to understand more. But I
I think that if my posture isset on wanting to feel okay and
not feel a sense of fear,because the world feels very

(43:37):
difficult right now, and I'm,you know, obviously, a middle
aged, white lady in Seattle,like, what do I mean? I am not a
person that is, that istypically, like, really on the
front line, not I'm not an iceagent is not knocking at my
door, you know? I mean, I'msaying this as a person that has
relative safety, I cannotimagine. But I just do have to
wonder if my if our postures canbe less on why? So why we need

(44:02):
to be certain and more about thegreat, longer, bigger story of
Jesus, that the goodness andreconciliation in the end, that
it's to come. I mean, if I'mgoing to believe this wild
story, if I'm going to believethat it's all true, I have to
believe that it's moving towardsRedemption at the end, all the
sad things will be untrue, andall things will be made well.

(44:24):
And so even if that's notsomething that I can see or
experience in my lifetime, eventhen it's, it's not about me,
it's about this. It's about thestory of the church and the
story that Jesus is doing toredeem the world. And so there
is, there is like a quietcomfort in that, how we apply
that theoretical to like ourdaily our daily anxiety, or the

(44:44):
daily headlines. I mean, today,as we're talking the truce in
the Middle East, the peace inthe Middle East seems less
likely. There's been anotherconflict, right? Or, you know,
something silly, the marinerslost the sixth game, and they're
probably going to be outtonight, but we're. Hoping.

I'm so hoping.
How that applies daily is wheremy anxiety happens right now is
the mariners have given me lotsof anxiety.

When people listen, they'll know the
outcome. Who knows, but how thattranslates daily to me has to
come back to noticing thethought and at that moment being
able to tell myself, God, I'mgoing to almost do this
exposure, like I'm not incontrol, and I that's okay.
Like, do what you want to dowith the book. Do what you want
to do with this next appointmentfor my dad. Like, I believe

(45:32):
you're good and that you're hereand present, and that's the best
I can do. And that actually isthat is profoundly different
than how I was thinking a fewyears

ago. Well, what you just said here is that you
notice a thought. I think whenwe can notice thoughts, we can
notice our emotions. We cannotice things. It feels like
they're actually on the outsideof us, that we could let them
pass and be okay. There theybecome smaller. Oh my gosh. That
is such a huge gift to people,to actually realizing that your

(46:02):
emotions are an emotion that'sright, that you could see and
let pass, and they don't defineyou. They're not all of who you
are, but it feels like itsometimes, right? So that is
huge. How do you How did you getto a place where you could
notice that and let him pass?
Yeah.

I mean, I'm a person that has a lot of, like,
my mind body connection ispretty strong. And so, you know,
I talk about in the book abouthealth anxiety, which is kind of
like my dad's flavor of anxietythat I feel like was passed, but
the baton was passed to me. Andso if somebody is has a
headache, my head usually startsto hurt. I can really just sort
of like a sponge, take that on.
And so I began to think about,and I, you know, in therapy,

(46:45):
talked about how my mind hasthese kind of well dug trenches,
so the second a sensation maycome in the body, like the then
the the mind just kind of shootsdown like a river down this,
this is what's wrong. And thenthe anxiety, the adrenaline
comes. But I've just learn to,kind of, in my mind, take a
beat, like, literally onesecond. Sometimes I can't,
sometimes the adrenaline comesand rushes before, but I can,

(47:08):
more than ever, take a minuteand say, Hey, I think that
you're reacting to this becauseof anxiety or because of fear.
Just like you don't have to godown that well worn sort of
stream of worry, like, justlike, stand by the bank for a
minute just to keep going withthis river exercise. Notice,
notice, a couple of leaves, letthe thought go, like, down the
river, not to be too floaty. Butreally, like, I It's been very,

(47:29):
very helpful. And so slowlythis, like, river, becomes more
of a stream, and then it kind ofdries up, and it's just the
long, slow work. And so I thinkat this point it's more like a
bubbling Brook and less like araging river, but it's certainly
not. This is too much. We'regoing too far, but

it's good. Well, Sarah, if you could talk to your
readers, what hope do you havefor nervous systems? Yeah,

I hope that even if, even if a reader, I know
we're all anxious about certainthings in our life, but not all
of us would talk about leadingwith anxiety, you know. But I
would hope that even if peopleare not in a season of anxiety,
that anybody can see the anxietyin someone they love or just in
the system. Right now, we're allswimming in the same waters, and

(48:16):
I would hope that people couldbegin to think about practices
like non anxious presence. Italk about Benedictine vows of
fidelity and stability. I hopethat we could look together at
some of these more ancientpractices that feel very
relevant for today, and begin tokind of build a toolbox that we
may be able to reference back toin seasons of our life when we
need them as caregivers, or asour own bodies change in age, or

(48:39):
As the world continues to dowhat it'll do.

Sarah, do you have any, any, anything you've
been reading or watching latelyyou could recommend?

Yeah, oh gosh, what a fun question. I've been
reading so many things that Ican't think about them right
now, because it's like, when yougo into a CD store or, like, an
album, you're like, What are youlistening to? But I can, I can
tell you something that I'mwatching and something that I'm
listening to, because thebrothers like 18 books. So I am
so excited about the next seasonof slow horses, because Gary

(49:08):
Oldman is like the best ever,and we think he's the most
amazing actor. So the first twoseasons are out, and I think the
third came out this week, whichmeans I have to subscribe to
whatever five, right? I've seenthem all five is it? Is it, is
it out? So I need to resubscribe to, is it Apple TV?
It's apple. So what I do is,like, many of us subscribe
because it's out, and then Istop. So I'm so excited, I don't

(49:32):
It's like Gary Oldman, like,just like the wink of an eye or
the turn of a head, just likethe littlest thing. I think he's
the best actor of our time. I'mobsessed. So I love that show.
And then the other what I'mlistening to, there's a singer
called Molly pardon who is onPorter's gate and has done a lot
of really cool, kind of modernhymns, but she has a new EP
called Polaris that I'mbasically only playing on repeat

(49:55):
constantly every day. That's howI get pretty stuck on stuff, but
it's kind of ethereal. So I.
Totally recommend the smallypart in EP.

That's wonderful. Thank you. Nervous
systems out everywhere. November4, wherever you get your books,
you could go get your books. Isthere anywhere you'd like to
point people to to get the bookspecifically, and how could they
connect with

you? Yeah, yeah.
There's my friends, Sean andMiley. Have a little bookstore
in Lancaster PA called nooks.
They're doing a specialpartnership for the book where
you order it. They give you 20%off, and you supported a
wonderful local bookstore. Sojust go to nooks and email them,
and they'll set you up. Otherthan that, wherever you like to
get books. And then I'm on substack at bitter scroll
Instagram. Sarah Billups,

perfect. Well, Sarah, thank you for this
conversation. Thanks for forgoing deep into our anxieties,
both personal and corporate andfamily anxieties, and knowing
that, hey, Jesus could bepresent with us in the midst of
them, and thank you for walkingus through some practices, and
especially the practice of holyindifference, of keeping our

(50:56):
hands open to whatever God hasfor us in this moment that he
can do it, and hey, we are notin control of everything, and
that we could let go of ourcontrol and our control issues.
And so thank you, Sarah, it

was a fantastic thank you. Thank you for making
it so easy. It's such a pleasureto talk to you. I just hope I
read another book so I can dothis again someday.

Well, you don't have to write another book. You
can just come on anytime youwant to. That sounds

Unknown (51:23):
better. You.

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Ep. 359 Sara Billups Returns - Spiritual Practices to Calm Anxiety in Your Body, the Church, and Politics

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 359 Sara Billups Returns - Spiritual Practices to Calm Anxiety in Your Body, the Church, and Politics