November 4, 2025 • 51 mins
Pastor and author Mark Batterson joins me to talk about his new book Gradually, Then Suddenly, a powerful invitation to dream God-sized dreams, start small, and stay faithful long enough to see legacy take root. We explore what it means to move from imagination to action, how to live with long vision and long obedience, and why true success often looks like quiet persistence over time. Mark shares stories of transformation from Washington, D.C., turning a crack house into a coffeehouse, a dream into a citywide ministry, and faith into a generational story. This conversation reminds us that what looks like slow progress may actually be sacred preparation. Join us for an inspiring look at how to live, lead, and love with purpose over the long haul.
Mark Batterson is the New York Times bestselling author of two dozen adult and children’s books including Win the Day, Chase the Lion and A Million Little Miracles. His newest book is Gradually Then Suddenly, How to Dream Bigger, Decide Better, and Leave a Lasting Legacy (Multnomah; on sale 11/4/25). He’s also the lead pastor of National Community Church in Washington, D.C. One church with multiple campuses, NCC owns and operates Ebenezers Coffeehouse, the DC Dream Center and the Capital Turnaround—a 100,000-square-foot city block that includes an event venue and child development center. Mark holds a doctor of ministry degree from Regent University. He and his wife, Lora, reside on Capitol Hill. For more information, visit markbatterson.com and https://twitter.com/markbatterson & Instagram.com/markbatterson
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark Batterson (00:00):
Come on, let's live our lives in a way that's
(00:02):
worth telling stories about.
Let's go after a dream that'sdestined to fail without divine
intervention.
Joshua Johnson (00:21):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, you know,
some things grow slowly, theirroots deepening beneath the
surface, long before anyonenotices the fruit. In this
episode, I talk with pastor andauthor Mark Batterson about his
(00:45):
new book, gradually, thensuddenly, a call to dream big,
start small and stay faithfullong enough to see a legacy take
root. We talk about the beautyof long obedience, how
imagination is part of the imageof God, and why every overnight
success is really 20 years inthe making. Mark shares stories
from his journey as a pastor inWashington, DC, turning a crack
(01:08):
house into a coffee house, adream into a city wide ministry
and faith into a generationalvision. Together, we explore how
to live in the tension betweenGod's timing and our efforts,
how to hold a long view oftransformation and how to live a
life worth telling storiesabout. Join us as we learn to
dream god sized dreams, practicepatient faith and play the long
(01:31):
game of love and legacy. Here ismy conversation with Mark
Batterson Mark, welcome toshifting culture. So excited to
have you on thanks for joiningme.
Mark Batterson (01:42):
Hey, it's a joy and privilege. Thank you. Yeah,
we're going
Joshua Johnson (01:45):
to talk about gradually, then suddenly, your
new book. And then one of thethings you talk about there is
long vision and long obedienceequals a long legacy. So I want
to go back all the way back intoyour high school days,
basketball playing days, as youwere at the free throw line, you
were squinting, and yourbasketball coach said, Hey, I
(02:06):
think you might have some visionproblems. And so we talked about
some vision, but I want to know,I know that coaches have
instilled vision in me that havestuck with me long term. What
did you learn on the court thathas stuck with you, that has
provided some vision for youlong term.
Mark Batterson (02:23):
Wow, I love that question. Why not start on the
court? And I have to make aconfession, Joshua my my
nickname in college was theblack hole, because if you pass
me the ball, you weren't gettinggetting it back. I never saw a
shot. I didn't, I didn't like, Ilike shooting the basketball.
(02:44):
But I think one of the thingsyou learn is you're only as good
as the players around you. Thewhole is more than the sum of
the parts, and I think that'sjust true in life, like it is
not a solo sport. So when you'reon the court, like it's
everybody, you know, blood,sweat and tears towards that
common goal, and how to be agood teammate, and then how to
(03:08):
face failure or a loss and pickyourself back up and figure out
how to practice harder andsmarter. And so I, you know,
it's crazy. I mean, I think mostof the life lessons that have
translated into both as a writerand a pastor really come from
(03:28):
the locker room, from the court,from the practice field.
Joshua Johnson (03:32):
Yeah, it's true.
And I found that in my own lifeas a player, as a coach, just
walking through life you'rethere's so many great
discipleship lessons, and whatdoes it look like to live well,
you know you have your dream haton. You got your dream
collective hoodie on. It's allabout the dream. So if we have
dreams in our life, and you loveto both have God sized dreams,
(03:53):
but then help others find theirgod sized dreams as well. When
did that shift happen for you,that you realized that you were
somebody that can instill somegod sized dreams into people,
help people imagine what God isdoing and where he's going and
how to join him and what he'sdoing on this earth.
Mark Batterson (04:15):
Wow. I think you know all of us, all of us are
dreamers in the sense thatimagination is part of the imago
day. So I think, you know, anylittle kid stick is a light
saber, and if they're even outshooting hoops, since we're on
the on the basketball theme, youknow, you're shooting with, you
(04:35):
know, time running out for theto win a championship, like it's
imagination, or this ability toenvision the future is so unique
to us. You know, squirrels mayhoard acorns for the winter, but
they don't moonshot rockets.
They don't build skyscrapers.
Like humankind is unique. And ofcourse, everything is created
(04:59):
twice and maybe. Will come backto that idea, because it's a
it's a key theme. But I'vealways been someone that just, I
really enjoy dreaming orimagining, whether it's
architecture. And you know,we've taken, we have about seven
properties that are old,properties that we have demoed
(05:21):
and renovated, and so whetherit's using imagination there, or
telling stories to my kidsbefore bed or or even dreaming
up a new book, there's justsomething about I really enjoy
the process of dreaming into thefuture, but it takes teamwork to
make the dream work, which is anoverused phrase, but it's
(05:42):
absolutely true, like you can,you know, as a coach, so What?
What? What sport Have youcoached? Joshua?
Joshua Johnson (05:51):
Coach, well, I coach college basketball, so I
coach basketball, and then, youknow, and then junior high to
coach baseball and volleyball.
So you
Mark Batterson (05:59):
know, you're you. You need that whole team to
be on the same page. And so thedream is winning a championship,
but then every player kind ofhas to internalize it. So I
don't know, I think, yeah, theimportance of dream show, show
me the size of your dream. I'llshow you the size of your God.
(06:19):
It's a stewardship issue. So Ithink it's always been something
that that is a little bit innateto me. The challenge is most of
us kind of lose that ability todream. We just get caught up in
the 24/7 cycle of
Joshua Johnson (06:34):
life. Yeah. So let's get get into some people
who really may be at thebeginning stages of dream. So to
produce a long vision that willtake so much obedience and
faithfulness over time that willthen have a legacy that's beyond
you. So let's go to thebeginning. How do we actually
(06:56):
then move from the imaginationstage into the like? Let's get
it on paper stage and start towalk it out. What does that look
like? That shift fromimagination to actually the
start of something? Yeah.
Mark Batterson (07:12):
Well, first of all, if we do little things like
they're big things, God will dobig things like their little
things. So don't despise the dayof small beginnings. Let's get
painfully practical. I write alittle bit about this idea of
grand gestures that you have todo something well, I'll give an
example. I felt called to writebooks when I was 22 but I didn't
(07:33):
write a book until I was 35 andso that was 13 years of a dream
deferred. It wasn't until Ileveraged my 35th birthday and
turned it into a deadline. Inother words, I'm not going to
turn 35 without having a book toshow for it. And I made that
decision Joshua like 40 daysout, so that did not leave much
(07:55):
time, but, but it's kind of assimple as you know, when I ran a
marathon years ago, it was justgoing on the Chicago Marathon
website and actually paying acouple 100 bucks to register for
it. And once you do that, well,then now, now we're in and you
(08:16):
know, even when I cast visionfor us launching a second
campus. Many, many, many yearsago, I remember it's about going
public and and in a message, Icast that vision. And it was
kind of like, all right, there'sno turning back now. So it's
almost like you have to backyourself into a little bit of a
corner. And so grand gesturescome in all kinds of shapes and
(08:39):
sizes. I mean, Jim Carrey wrotehimself a check for $10 million
and in the memo, post dated it10 years out. And sure enough,
that grand gesture came truewith a couple of movies, I
think, one of them being dumband dumber. So you're saying
there's a chance? Yes, I am.
Joshua Johnson (09:01):
That's good.
There is a there is a chance,since we're going there, you
know, a lot of this, this visioninto reality, I'm just take the
story of Abraham. You know,God's telling him a through your
family, there's going to bedescendants, more than you could
count, and there will be theseed. So Jesus comes through the
genealogy the family of Abrahamand Jesus then, hey, we get, we
(09:25):
get everything right? Yeah,death, reconciliation,
redemption, renewal, of allthings. It's, it's amazing, but
from him, but all he saw was hisfamily, and it took a long time
for him to even get a son and beobedient, yep, and he died
before anything was possible.
(09:48):
How do we, like, know, like,Hey, this is a God given dream.
This is something that Godpromised he's going to do in my
life. And we continue to walk itout. And it's. Not just for us,
it could be for generations tocome. But how do we how do we
walk that out? What give us somesome things. How does the story
(10:09):
of Abraham help us out to thinklong term? Well,
Mark Batterson (10:12):
I I kind of employ what I call the crazy
test, that it's got to be crazyenough for God to be in it, and
I'm having a little bit of funwith that, but by definition, a
god sized dream is going to bebeyond your ability, beyond your
education and beyond yourresources. In other words, you
(10:33):
can't do it. It's going tonecessitate some divine
intervention. So come on, let'slive our lives in a way that's
worth telling stories about.
Let's go after a dream that'sdestined to fail without divine
intervention. So I think it hasto be kind of crazy enough, big
enough, and and, you know, acouple named Abraham and Sarah
having a baby at 190respectively, is pretty crazy,
(10:55):
so it requires some divineintervention. So I tend to look
at things like, instead of justdoing things that are kind of on
the outskirts of my humanability, sign me up for
something that is a little bitmore impossible than that. And I
think you have to be careful,because generally speaking,
(11:16):
there's going to be a compoundinterest. So, you know, when I
first started dreaming ofwriting books, I thought, man,
what if I could write a bookthat would sell a million
copies. And, you know, just kindof that would be amazing. And,
well, first book sold 3641copies, okay, so like reality
(11:37):
check. But then that six book,the circle maker, not only sold
a million. I think we're atthree plus and and so it's it's
this, it's where legacy comesinto play. I think that we tend
to overestimate what we can doin a year or two, underestimate
what God can do in 10 or 20legacy is not what you
(11:59):
accomplish. Legacy is whatothers accomplish because of
you. And so that's where Ithink, if a dream is selfish in
nature, I honestly think italways short circuits, like it
just it loses, it losessomething. But if I have a dream
that kind of like John theBaptist, I must become less, and
(12:23):
you must become more. When it'snot about your ego or paycheck,
but it's this intrinsic man. Ireally want to use the gift I
have to glorify God. Then ThenGod has this way of taking five
loaves, two fish, and turning itinto a miracle for 5000 people.
(12:43):
So there's, there's something inthat equation that I think maybe
answers the question you'reasking.
Joshua Johnson (12:52):
Well, I think there's also something where
people, it's not just about, youknow, my dream. So it has to be,
if it's a god sized dream, ithas to be more than just one of
us to accomplish this, right?
It's not really all just aboutme and this dream. It's about
all of us together. What? How dowe start out on that trajectory?
I've seen so many people thatare concerned with legacy at the
(13:14):
end of their their life, andthey're trying to control things
so that they can have a say insomething. But how do you set
something up from the beginningwhen it's not just about what
you want to control at the end,but it's about giving things
away from from the beginning tomake it a god dream and not just
a good idea for me? Wow.
Mark Batterson (13:37):
Well, I'll, I'll make it personal many, many
years ago, probably two decadesago, kind of came up with a list
of 100 life goals, but when Iwent back and looked at them, I
was a little surprised howselfish some of them were, and I
made two changes. One is I addeda relationship component to
(14:02):
almost every dream. So insteadof doing a triathlon, let me do
a triathlon with one of my kids.
Instead of swimming the Escapefrom Alcatraz by myself, let me
do it with one of my kids.
Instead of just going to the topof the Eiffel Tower, how about
if I kiss my wife on the top ofthe Eiffel Tower, that's way
better. So adding a relationalelement and and I, literally, I
(14:27):
say this so often, if it's not awin for you, it's not a win for
me, like I really want tooperate out of a win win. Too
many people have a zero sum gamemindset. And Joshua, even you
know this as a coach, thegreatest athletes aren't
competing against the otherteam. They're always competing
with themselves, like they'retrying to become the best
(14:49):
version of themselves. And thenthe other thing I did with those
life goals is, instead ofgetting goals, I flipped it and
set giving goals. Now you.
Here's here's the reality, ifyou're going to give away X
number of dollars, you probablyare going to have to make a
certain multiple of that, but itchanges the motivation. And so,
(15:10):
you know, one of our goals, mywife and I, is to reverse ties
someday, and that would beliving off a 10% and giving 90%
because you don't take it withyou. And so I think, you know,
there might be something verypractical. There is we're
setting goals, let's make sure,or as we're dreaming, let's make
(15:31):
sure that we're adding value toother people, that it's a win
for everybody. And it's kind ofthis rising tide floats all
boats, so to speak.
Joshua Johnson (15:45):
But if you're in the boat and you're trying to
get to the other side a lot oftimes, you know, if you want to
actually swim from Alcatraz allthe way back to the land, you're
going to be in the middle ofthat water, and you're going to
try to look back, you can't seeanything. You're gonna try to
look forward. You can't seeanything. And you're like, what
did I get myself into? I'm inthe middle of of the ocean, and
(16:09):
I don't know what I'm doing, andyou just keep going. And you
keep going. So when we can'tsee, like, what's ahead, we
can't see what's behind, andwe're in the middle of it, the
really messy middle, yeah. Whatdo we do to keep going? What do
we do with putting one foot infront of the other? How does
this work for us?
Mark Batterson (16:27):
Yeah, well, I might zoom out and kind of big
picture, maybe even put mypastor hat on, because I like
asking this question, whatpercentage of your thoughts and
words, actions and reactions area regurgitation of the news
you're watching or the socialmedia you're consuming. In other
(16:49):
words, are you overly influencedby trending hashtags? Because if
you are, you're going to trendtowards groupthink, popular
opinion, peer pressure,political correctness are going
to be the order of the day, orwhat percentage of your thoughts
and words, actions and reactionsare a revelation you're getting
(17:10):
from God's word. Like, I want tomake sure that I'm taking my
cues from scripture, which forme, is the final authority in
matters of faith and doctrine.
So that's my, I mean, that's myepistemology in a nutshell, that
I've given God veto power, and Ibelieve His Word is inspired. So
I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to liveaccording to that word. So
(17:32):
that's a, you know, when you'rein the middle of the mess, you
really have to, well, there'sprobably a couple of other
things. And I this is, this isthinking on the fly. And it's
fun to think on the fly. Youbetter make sure that you've got
true north, that you understand,that you have this internal
(17:55):
compass, that I have certainconvictions. For example, I want
to be famous in my home. Well,it's hard to be famous in your
home if you're never home. Andso what I had to do years ago
was establish boundaries thatall only do seven overnight
speaking trips a year, becauseif I, if I do more than that,
I'm going to be spread so thinthat the most important people
(18:18):
in my life, will get theleftovers. And the problem with
that is this, I have adefinition of success. Success
is when those who know you bestrespect you most, and that's my
wife and my kids. So so it'slike when, when the compass
needle is spinning and you're inthe middle of the mess, you need
to stay centered and then. Andthen, I'd also say, You better
(18:42):
fix your eyes on Jesus, theauthor and perfecter of faith,
who, for the joy that was setbefore Him, endured the cross,
scorning its shame. Like I wouldsay, Keep on. Keeping on. Keep
calm and carry on, like so muchof life and leadership. I don't
care if we're talking aboutmarriage or or when a team loses
(19:02):
a couple of games in a row andconfidence is shaken like man,
you got to go back to basics.
You got to go back to practicingthe right things, doing the
right things, the inputs, andthen trusting those those
outcomes, so that that would bekind of my initial take, and I
(19:23):
would be interested, like,hearing what I just said, like,
what, what's going through your
Joshua Johnson (19:29):
mind? Yeah, it's convictions, but I think it's
values. For me, it's like, whatare the values and those things
are going to drive who I am,what I'm doing, where I'm going.
I think when you you have eithera monetary goal or, like, a
building goal or, you know,something you could steamroll so
many people if they're if valuesdon't actually drive the day.
(19:52):
Yeah.
Mark Batterson (19:53):
Do you have, like, with the teams that you
coach? Do you occasionally havelike, a theme or. Mantra, or,
you know, like I wrote a book afew years ago called win the
day, and truth be told, I mean,I got that title from a bunch of
football programs that, youknow, they use that little
mantra, win, win the day and,and so, just out of curiosity,
(20:17):
because then I have a thought,because I we produce all kinds
of T shirts or swag that put ourvalues on a shirt. Like, I mean,
the shirt I'm wearing under thissays criticized by creating it's
a Michelangelo. It's one of ourcore values, like, don't just
take pot shots at culture. Like,write a better book, produce a
(20:38):
better film, make better music,start better businesses. So,
but, but I'm curious, like, howhave you done that with your
teams?
Joshua Johnson (20:45):
I think it's those sort of things. It's those
values that live the day. So,you know, it's the little things
that you say all the time. Youknow, you do the little things,
right? Big things will happen.
You know, it's something whatyou just said before. But those
little things, those are thethings that you instill in your
players, those are the thingsthey'll remember, and it's what
they do in the middle of thegame, go, oh, okay, I get that.
(21:05):
I had a friend who won the NCAATournament in golf. He won the
US amateur, US amateur Publix,but his his college coach, his
golf coach, it was all it wasover and over is, finished
strong, finished strong. And itwas, so it was the, you know,
18th hole. He had more birdieson the 18th hole than anybody
(21:29):
else. That's because it wasfinished strong. And that's, you
know, that's what it came sothose are the things that are
really important that drive youwhen you're in the middle of it,
yeah, yep, love it. You know,one of the things that you talk
about here is thatbracciostochrome curve, and I
think that right there is, youknow, from the beginning, it
(21:50):
really highlights whatgradually, then suddenly is, and
what momentum looks like. And I,lot of people love the suddenly,
right? We think the dreams arejust going to happen. We don't
like the gradually, but these,these are long term things to
get to the suddenly, yeah, takeus through that curve and take
us into the place. So you canjust give us a bigger picture of
(22:12):
gradually than suddenly.
Mark Batterson (22:16):
Yeah, I'm about to record the audio book, and I
knew when I put in that curve,I'm like, I'm gonna regret it,
because I'm gonna have to say itabout 10 times. It's a mouthful.
Joshua Johnson (22:29):
It is a mouthful. I had to go look up
how to say it. I had to practiceit like I'm gonna say it once.
That was it.
Mark Batterson (22:36):
You did it better than I can even do it so
but it is kind of a fun the yes,the shortest distance between
two points is a straight line,but it's not the fastest route.
There's actually a curve and andI think there's an application
to life that Well, I even sharethe story in the book about the
(22:59):
first time I dunked abasketball. It was with a cast
on my ankle, and it's because Ithought it was a setback, but it
was a setup like I had to hoparound for weeks on end on one
leg, and that one leg became sostrong after doing that that I
was able to literally dunk abasketball with a cast on the
(23:21):
other foot. So it's this ideaof, listen, sometimes those
setbacks are actually a blessingin disguise and but we only tend
to see it looking back, notlooking forward or in the in the
moment. But the obstacle is notthe enemy. The obstacle is the
way you have to kind of fightyour way through it. You know,
(23:44):
at the end of the day, usuallysuccess is well managed failure.
So you have to be really, reallygood at kind of processing that.
So I think that curve is, isjust part of life. I mean, if
you look at someone like Joseph,for example. I mean, 13 years,
it goes from bad to worse. Imean, he's trafficked, sold into
(24:08):
slavery by his brothers, youknow, ends up in prison on a
false accusation. I mean, it isnot looking good, but all of it
is this incredible setup and andhe has the wherewithal. Genesis,
5020, you intended to harm me,but God intended it for good,
(24:28):
the saving of many lives. Soit's this idea that listen,
simply put, overnight success isan oxymoron, like it doesn't
exist. It usually is 20 years inthe making, as Sam Walton is
purported to have said, as itrelates to Walmart. But it
(24:49):
really is true of everything.
The people who really succeed atthings love, gradually. Love in
fact. Do you know? When JohnWooden retired, he was asked
what he missed most, and itwasn't the championships, it
wasn't hoisting the trophy, itwasn't he said, practice, that's
(25:09):
what he missed the most, andthat whether whether you're a
musician or an athlete or anacademic, like, there's
something to be said there, thatit's this intrinsic motivation
you love practicing your craft,whatever that is, and getting
(25:29):
better and better at it.
Joshua Johnson (25:32):
Yeah, he missed telling his players how to put
on socks the proper way. That'swhat he missed. One of the
quotes that you have in yourbook you, which goes along with
what you just said, is, ifsomeone makes something look
easy, I guarantee it isn't.
Effortlessness is evidence ofextra effort. It's not an easy
thing, right? We got some effortinto it for people, when you're
(25:58):
thinking about God dreams, Ithink some people spiritualize
their dreams in such a way wherethey're like, I don't need to
put any effort in. This is God'sgonna do it. And, you know, I'm
just gonna let God do it. Sowhat do we have to do in the
middle of these God dreams?
(26:18):
Like, what is our role andresponsibility and what's God's
role and responsibility,
Mark Batterson (26:23):
right? Well, I think true wisdom has two sides.
Job, 11, six, and I think youhave to pray like it depends on
God, but you also have to worklike it depends on you, that God
has a way of honoring blood,sweat and tears, that effort
matters. I think when you lovingGod with all of your strength, I
(26:45):
take that very literally, thatit involves a caloric output. So
yesterday, I think I am trainingfor a bike century. So I bike 45
miles, burned about 4000calories, and I feel like I'm
loving God with all of mystrength when I'm on that bike,
like literally, I'm using myenergy to do something that I
(27:11):
think is significant. Andthere's a way to do that that
you can glorify God. Ifscripture says, whether you eat
or drink, do it all to the gloryof God, that tells me kind of
everything is is on the table.
One of my all time favoritequotes is that Dorothy Sayers,
and she said, I dare say that noill fitted drawers or crooked
table legs ever came out of thecarpenter shop in Nazareth. And
(27:35):
it's this idea that long beforeJesus was teaching parables or
doing miracles, He was craftingfurniture. And I've got to think
that he crafted beautiful, wellmade, long lasting furniture. So
I just think whatever you'redoing. It deserves kind of your
(28:00):
best effort. And I, you know, ifsomeone is pulling shots at a
coffee shop, a barista and youcan tell they're putting some
effort, putting some love intoit. You can tell, I mean, I, I
think it tastes better. We havesome some friends who are on the
(28:20):
garbage truck that come by aboutonce a week. And I was out there
with we have one grandson who'sjust a year old, and he, you
know, for him, dump truck orgarage or garbage trucks or or
moving trucks are like thecoolest thing on the planet. And
we were out there, and he wasjust waving to him, and you
(28:44):
could tell, like, I don't know,like, is that? Is that a dream
job? Like, kind of getting yourhands dirty with with garbage? I
don't know if that's a dreamjob, but, man, this guy who does
it is so nice and so good, andit's been so gracious to us. I'm
like, okay, like, I just, Ithink it's, it's doing whatever
(29:08):
you do in a way that that youunderstand you're, you're
honoring God with your effort.
Joshua Johnson (29:16):
One of the most impactful funerals I ever went
to is a guy who died in thisearly 50s. He was a forklift
driver. There were so manypeople that came to his funeral,
and he made such an impact onpeople's lives, because it was
about doing things withexcellence and about the people
around him. And he poured hislife into people while he was
doing whatever job he was doingwith excellence. And that's, I
(29:37):
mean, that's what it is. Sowhat's, what's your shirt say,
criticize by creating, bycreating. Criticized by
creating. So what are youcreating? What? What? What is
happening through your church,or the influence that the church
has had that actually sees some,some creation that these,
there's some God dreams that arehappening. What? What's going
(30:00):
on, what's been created, what islike? Where are we going?
Mark Batterson (30:04):
Yeah, well, Washington, DC is an interesting
place to pastor. I'll say thatright out of the gate. But we're
not just trying to build achurch. We're trying to bless a
city. And so, you know, we maybe able to touch a few 1000
people every weekend, but reallyit's about doing things to the
third and fourth generation. Socouple of examples, like we
(30:26):
bought a we bought a crack houseand turned it into ebenezer's
Coffee House. And every penny ofprofit we give to Kingdom causes
that we care about and and thatincludes a DC Dream Center,
which was an abandoned apartmentbuilding and invested more than
$5 million mayor came out andcut that ribbon. And it's a
(30:49):
place where we're 64 programsrun out of that DC Dream Center.
Because if you want to change acity, you've got to go upstream
and start with kids. And sothose would be a couple of
examples just doing thingsserving our city. And that could
be Listen, cleanup projects, tooutreaches that, you know, an
(31:15):
Easter egg hunt that we do, butit a church that stays within
its four walls, isn't a churchat all. So we've always wanted
to kind of be in our city. Oneof our core convictions is that
God will bless us in proportionto how we give to missions and
care for the poor in our city.
So this year, we'll take 17mission trips, and we'll give $4
million to missions. Now weweren't doing that 29 years ago.
(31:37):
29 years ago, we gave a $50check and thought to ourselves,
like we cannot afford this, butwe started kind of prioritizing,
how do we serve others and andthat would include any church
that's planted in our city. Wewant to be financial
shareholders in it, because it'snot about the name over the
(32:00):
church door. It's about the nameabove all names. So it's, it's
kind of this mindset whereyou're playing the long game.
And I think when you play thelong game, you realize that,
Well, for starters, every pastoris an interim pastor. I mean,
I've had the joy of serving in alead role for 29 years, but I'm
still an interim pastor, even ifI get to do it for 50 years. So
(32:23):
it's, it's kind of that mindsetof, let's not complain about
things. Let's make a difference.
So when our city is kind ofimmigration conversations, and
I, you know, I don't havepolitical or legislative
(32:45):
solutions. That's not the hat Iwear. But there was a season
where we were caring for about65% of the refugees in the DMV.
So like, I think Scripture says,care for the stranger, love the
stranger and and now, now I knowimmediately, then people have
(33:08):
seven follow up questions, and Iget it, it's not, not
complicated, but I feel like wewant to be more known for what
we're for than what We'reagainst, and that means
sometimes just letting your feetdo some of the talking.
Joshua Johnson (33:24):
I think that's right, and I think we need to
care, and we need to care well,you know, my wife and I work
with war refugees for many yearsin the Middle East, so we were
there, and I'll give you ourdream as we went over to the
Middle East, and we said wedreamed that within our
lifetime, movements of Muslimsfollowing Jesus would sweep
across the Arab world,transforming it from within.
(33:44):
And, you know, that's, that's abig God sized dream, like, I
can't do that by myself. My wifeand I can't do it by with each
other. We can't do it with onelittle team. It's going to take
God and a spirit moving in waysthat are well beyond us. Yeah.
And, you know, one of the thingsis, you know our the first you
know refugee that came to know,know Jesus had a dream of Jesus
(34:08):
was was great. A lot of greatthings happened through her. But
it was when her, her daughter,about six years later, came to
know Jesus and said, our familyas well, and my kids were going
to follow Jesus. And I, Ifinally, I just realized that
it's not just that one littlegeneration, but it is now the
(34:29):
generation that comes after heris affected. And then now that
her kids, so the generationafter her is affected. And this
goes generationally deep and notjust wide. How can we, you know,
you're talking about a longlegacy here. How can we have
generational thinking like thisis generational movement. You
(34:51):
look all throughout the Bible,things happen generationally,
and not just in one, you know,setting, but it was generation
after. Generation, what is likehaving a generational mindset
look like,
Mark Batterson (35:04):
yeah, I love, I love the question. Because we
were so short sighted. We're somyopic. We kind of, we live in
news cycles and political cyclesand so, you know, our we kind of
root our thinking in Jeremiah 29where the Israelites, Jewish
(35:27):
people, are in exile in Babylon.
And Hananiah, false prophet,says you're only going to be
there two years. You know,wouldn't that be great? But the
problem is, is, if you have atwo year mindset, you don't even
unpack your suitcase like yourent the city but, but Jeremiah
comes along and says, No, you'regoing to be there 70 years. So
you better plant gardens andbuild houses. Now, what's
(35:49):
interesting is the averagelifespan in that time was 35 so
70 years is thinking, you know,out to that second and third
generation and so literally,like when we bought we bought a
city block on Capitol Hill. AndI mean it, we didn't have a
(36:11):
category for a $29.3 millionbuilding, let alone a city
block. It was bigger than ourvision, but, but not if you
think in terms of three and fourgenerations like what we realize
is that all we're trying to dois set up the next generation.
(36:31):
We drink from wells we didn'tdig, and so we better dig some
wells for the next generation.
And so it really is thismindset, and I think, honestly,
well, tell, let me, I'll ask youthe question, don't you? Don't
you think it seems like we'regetting worse and worse at long
(36:54):
term consequential thinking,because timeframes have become
so shortened that it just seemslike we're making decisions kind
of based on this quarter'snumbers or or this season's win
loss record, instead of thatlong term. I think there's a
question in there somewhere.
Joshua Johnson (37:16):
Well, I think one of the things you're saying
is that time feels like it'sbeen sped up lately? Yes. And
so, because we have a barrage ofinformation, and we have a new
thought and new informationcoming in all the time, we
think, okay, if I respond tothat, that'll be fine. And then
then after, respond to the nextthing. And so that's, it's going
to be difficult for us to to getout of this barrage of
(37:40):
information in this, you know,attention economy that we have,
that it's all about theattention we give. And if it is
an attention economy, then wehave to give the attention back
to God and give back to God.
What is God's which is time andtime, right, emanates from him.
It doesn't emanate from our newsfeed. It doesn't emanate from
our social media feed. Itemanates from God. And so that's
(38:04):
what we're giving back, andthat's where the attention
starts to go. Is that long termthing? But that is, that is the
difficult thing for people andfor all of us, right?
Mark Batterson (38:16):
Yeah, you know it's, it's funny Joshua, because
I it would have been easier towrite a like, I'm trying to
think of the opposite ofgradually, then suddenly like
it. It probably would be morepopular to write like two
minutes to financialindependence or or two days to
(38:40):
accomplish your dreams. It's notreality. I just am more and more
convinced there are noshortcuts. There aren't any
cheat codes. And in fact, thepeople that experience success
too quickly sometimes thereisn't really the character to
kind of support that kind ofsuccess, and you know, then what
(39:02):
happens is, it goes to your headand and it kind of blows up your
ego. And so I look back on it,and, yeah, we've had the joy of
leading a church for 29 yearsthat the that God has blessed
but, but, you know, I share thestory in the book about our
first attempt at church planningwas a failure, and it was so
(39:24):
embarrassing and disorientingwhen it happened, but I look
back on it and I'm like, Oh,what a gift. What a gift to
experience that kind of failurein my early 20s, because then
you're not you're not tempted totake credit for things you
shouldn't be taking credit
Joshua Johnson (39:43):
for. In your book, you you're talking about
this. You're talking about theorder of the mustard seed,
count, sense and dwarf theMoravians, what they're doing,
and you make a correlationbetween the understory of what's
happening underneath and thenthe overstory. And you know, we
see this within. Nature withinforests as well. You know,
trees, you have what's going onup top, but the stuff underneath
(40:06):
is really where the magichappens. And, you know, the
roots are being formed. And youtalk in there that really, it's
about consecrating ourselves toGod. Is the thing that's going
to, you know, propel us intothat place. Can you just talk
about maybe the Moravians thereorder the mustard seed and
consecration and the importanceof consecration?
Mark Batterson (40:28):
Yeah, well, they they started 100 year prayer
meeting, 24/7 and it's hard tocalculate kind of all of the
cultural impact that that hadbut pretty, pretty profound,
yes. So I think part of what youknow, part of what I'm trying to
(40:51):
get at there is like we need tohave long vision, and long
vision, by definition, can't beaccomplished in your lifetime.
And so how are we dreaming intosomething that's bigger and
longer here in all I'll make itreally practical, like I think
(41:13):
we are so often discouraged ordisheartened by news. I mean,
take a week, any week, andsomething happened that's
absolutely devastating, ashooting over here or a tragedy
over there. And because socialmedia, which is kind of like the
(41:37):
tree of knowledge that I don'tthink we have the emotional or
intellectual capacity to knowabout everything that's
happening all the timeeverywhere, like it just we. We
aren't created that way. And sowhat happens is we become
overwhelmed by the latestheadline and but, but Joshua,
(41:59):
that's the understory. That'sthe understory. The overstory is
the kingdoms of this world arebecoming the kingdom of our Lord
and of His Christ. Every kneewill bow, every tongue will
confess to the glory of God, theFather that Jesus is King of
Kings and Lord of lords. There'sno other name under heaven,
(42:20):
given unto men by which we canbe and must be saved. And guess
what? Every nation, tribe,people, language, will worship
around that throne. Come onchurch, that the day is coming
that there will be no more deathor mourning or crying or pain.
You have got to keep locked andloaded on that over story. And
that's true of our lives. Like,I mean, we get in our heads and
(42:46):
we overthink, whether it's likeI had a bad game or we had a bad
day as a married couple, oranything in between. Like, you
can get so locked in that littleunderstory that then you forget,
kind of the overstory in the bigpicture. So I think part of the
(43:09):
part of gradually, thensuddenly, is, let's, let's zoom
out, widen the aperture, wideangle lens, get a little bit of
perspective. I mean, I even pokeat something. CS Lewis said that
between every new book you read,you better read an old one,
(43:29):
otherwise you become a captiveto the spirit of the age. And so
even in that like, if we aren'tcareful, we get trapped in these
news cycles, or we get trappedin mindsets or world views that
are Johnny Come Lately, insteadof really understanding the meta
(43:52):
narrative, kind of the grandnarrative of Scripture, from
Genesis to Revelation,
Joshua Johnson (43:57):
it's so important to live into The God
story, this metanarrative, andwe know it, that really
transforms the way that we livein our lives. Mark, if you had
one hope for your readers ofgradually, then suddenly, what
hope would you have for yourreaders?
Mark Batterson (44:13):
You know, I would love it if, if as as
people are reading the book,that the spirit would do what
the Spirit does, and just giveGod ideas. Like, Good ideas are
good, but God ideas change thecourse of history. So I think
there are so many inspirationalstories, stories that I've drawn
(44:36):
tremendous courage andinspiration from. Like, I mean,
one of my favorites, how do wenot even talk about Amos Alonzo
Stagg, you know, the legendarycoach, won two national
championships, coached until hewas 98 years old, and was asked
the question like, you know, bya reporter. How he felt about
(45:00):
how successful his season was,he says, oh, no, no, ask me in
20 years, because that's whenI'll see how my players turned
out. It, you know, I'm hopingthat, whether you're a coach or
an entrepreneur, full time momor dad, whatever, whatever it
is, like your blue collar, yourwhite collar, that doesn't
(45:25):
matter. I think it's aboutunderstanding that we're
something, a part of somethingthat's bigger and better and
longer and take take this toheart. God is always writing a
bigger story. I remind myself ofthat all the time, and so I
think, I think it's a book thatwill encourage long vision, long
(45:47):
obedience, and hopefully net along legacy.
Joshua Johnson (45:51):
Two quick questions at the end here, I
like to ask one, if you go backto your 21 year old self, what
advice
Mark Batterson (45:56):
would you give enjoy the journey. I'll just
every age, every stage, enjoythe journey
Joshua Johnson (46:02):
that's good.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately you could
recommend,
Mark Batterson (46:07):
oh, my goodness, I have been deep diving AI, both
the practitioner side and thetheory side, and the unintended
consequences or implications ofwhere that could take us? Yeah,
I'm not a particularly technicalguy. In fact, I'll even say I've
(46:27):
never used AI to help me do anyof my writing, which is kind of
mind boggling, because the truthis, are there any students left
that aren't using AI to helpthem with an assignment? But I
and so I like reading. I likereading about the everything
(46:49):
from science astrophysics totrees to history to biography.
Just read River of Doubt,another Teddy Roosevelt
biography. So I that's a hardquestion for me, because I,
like, I have this diet of, like,biography, history, science and
(47:09):
theology, and I just every ologyis a branch of theology. So I
kind of like putting all of thatin the in the Vitamix, if you
will.
Joshua Johnson (47:19):
That's great.
Well, gradually, then suddenly,it's out everywhere, beginning
November mark. This book isfantastic. As you said, there's
so many inspirational stories inthis book. It is fantastic. I
love to going through it. I'mexcited to read it again with
other people. To invite peopleto dream and dream god sized
dreams. How would you like topoint people to to get the book?
(47:42):
Is there anywhere they'd like topoint people to as well?
Mark Batterson (47:47):
Yeah, probably if, if folks pop over to Mark
batterson.com there's a freesample chapter. But then a lot
of resources and things thatare, I just want to add value.
Whether you get the book or not,you'll find resources there that
I think can help you in yourspiritual journey, but also in
(48:08):
that gradually, then suddenlyjourney and and then I'm on
social Instagram. X. MarkBatterson,
Joshua Johnson (48:17):
all right. Well, Mark, thank you for this
conversation. It was fantastic.
Hopefully you're going to go andpractice bratchas chrome curve,
and you could be able to say theword, you'll get it down as you
read the audio. But I reallyenjoyed connecting with you,
sharing dreams and seeing whatGod could do. So this is
fantastic.
Mark Batterson (48:36):
Thanks so much.
Joshua, God bless. Yeah. You.
Come on, let's live our lives in a way that's
(00:02):
worth telling stories about.
Let's go after a dream that'sdestined to fail without divine
intervention.
Joshua Johnson (00:21):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, you know,
some things grow slowly, theirroots deepening beneath the
surface, long before anyonenotices the fruit. In this
episode, I talk with pastor andauthor Mark Batterson about his
(00:45):
new book, gradually, thensuddenly, a call to dream big,
start small and stay faithfullong enough to see a legacy take
root. We talk about the beautyof long obedience, how
imagination is part of the imageof God, and why every overnight
success is really 20 years inthe making. Mark shares stories
from his journey as a pastor inWashington, DC, turning a crack
(01:08):
house into a coffee house, adream into a city wide ministry
and faith into a generationalvision. Together, we explore how
to live in the tension betweenGod's timing and our efforts,
how to hold a long view oftransformation and how to live a
life worth telling storiesabout. Join us as we learn to
dream god sized dreams, practicepatient faith and play the long
(01:31):
game of love and legacy. Here ismy conversation with Mark
Batterson Mark, welcome toshifting culture. So excited to
have you on thanks for joiningme.
Mark Batterson (01:42):
Hey, it's a joy and privilege. Thank you. Yeah,
we're going
Joshua Johnson (01:45):
to talk about gradually, then suddenly, your
new book. And then one of thethings you talk about there is
long vision and long obedienceequals a long legacy. So I want
to go back all the way back intoyour high school days,
basketball playing days, as youwere at the free throw line, you
were squinting, and yourbasketball coach said, Hey, I
(02:06):
think you might have some visionproblems. And so we talked about
some vision, but I want to know,I know that coaches have
instilled vision in me that havestuck with me long term. What
did you learn on the court thathas stuck with you, that has
provided some vision for youlong term.
Mark Batterson (02:23):
Wow, I love that question. Why not start on the
court? And I have to make aconfession, Joshua my my
nickname in college was theblack hole, because if you pass
me the ball, you weren't gettinggetting it back. I never saw a
shot. I didn't, I didn't like, Ilike shooting the basketball.
(02:44):
But I think one of the thingsyou learn is you're only as good
as the players around you. Thewhole is more than the sum of
the parts, and I think that'sjust true in life, like it is
not a solo sport. So when you'reon the court, like it's
everybody, you know, blood,sweat and tears towards that
common goal, and how to be agood teammate, and then how to
(03:08):
face failure or a loss and pickyourself back up and figure out
how to practice harder andsmarter. And so I, you know,
it's crazy. I mean, I think mostof the life lessons that have
translated into both as a writerand a pastor really come from
(03:28):
the locker room, from the court,from the practice field.
Joshua Johnson (03:32):
Yeah, it's true.
And I found that in my own lifeas a player, as a coach, just
walking through life you'rethere's so many great
discipleship lessons, and whatdoes it look like to live well,
you know you have your dream haton. You got your dream
collective hoodie on. It's allabout the dream. So if we have
dreams in our life, and you loveto both have God sized dreams,
(03:53):
but then help others find theirgod sized dreams as well. When
did that shift happen for you,that you realized that you were
somebody that can instill somegod sized dreams into people,
help people imagine what God isdoing and where he's going and
how to join him and what he'sdoing on this earth.
Mark Batterson (04:15):
Wow. I think you know all of us, all of us are
dreamers in the sense thatimagination is part of the imago
day. So I think, you know, anylittle kid stick is a light
saber, and if they're even outshooting hoops, since we're on
the on the basketball theme, youknow, you're shooting with, you
(04:35):
know, time running out for theto win a championship, like it's
imagination, or this ability toenvision the future is so unique
to us. You know, squirrels mayhoard acorns for the winter, but
they don't moonshot rockets.
They don't build skyscrapers.
Like humankind is unique. And ofcourse, everything is created
(04:59):
twice and maybe. Will come backto that idea, because it's a
it's a key theme. But I'vealways been someone that just, I
really enjoy dreaming orimagining, whether it's
architecture. And you know,we've taken, we have about seven
properties that are old,properties that we have demoed
(05:21):
and renovated, and so whetherit's using imagination there, or
telling stories to my kidsbefore bed or or even dreaming
up a new book, there's justsomething about I really enjoy
the process of dreaming into thefuture, but it takes teamwork to
make the dream work, which is anoverused phrase, but it's
(05:42):
absolutely true, like you can,you know, as a coach, so What?
What? What sport Have youcoached? Joshua?
Joshua Johnson (05:51):
Coach, well, I coach college basketball, so I
coach basketball, and then, youknow, and then junior high to
coach baseball and volleyball.
So you
Mark Batterson (05:59):
know, you're you. You need that whole team to
be on the same page. And so thedream is winning a championship,
but then every player kind ofhas to internalize it. So I
don't know, I think, yeah, theimportance of dream show, show
me the size of your dream. I'llshow you the size of your God.
(06:19):
It's a stewardship issue. So Ithink it's always been something
that that is a little bit innateto me. The challenge is most of
us kind of lose that ability todream. We just get caught up in
the 24/7 cycle of
Joshua Johnson (06:34):
life. Yeah. So let's get get into some people
who really may be at thebeginning stages of dream. So to
produce a long vision that willtake so much obedience and
faithfulness over time that willthen have a legacy that's beyond
you. So let's go to thebeginning. How do we actually
(06:56):
then move from the imaginationstage into the like? Let's get
it on paper stage and start towalk it out. What does that look
like? That shift fromimagination to actually the
start of something? Yeah.
Mark Batterson (07:12):
Well, first of all, if we do little things like
they're big things, God will dobig things like their little
things. So don't despise the dayof small beginnings. Let's get
painfully practical. I write alittle bit about this idea of
grand gestures that you have todo something well, I'll give an
example. I felt called to writebooks when I was 22 but I didn't
(07:33):
write a book until I was 35 andso that was 13 years of a dream
deferred. It wasn't until Ileveraged my 35th birthday and
turned it into a deadline. Inother words, I'm not going to
turn 35 without having a book toshow for it. And I made that
decision Joshua like 40 daysout, so that did not leave much
(07:55):
time, but, but it's kind of assimple as you know, when I ran a
marathon years ago, it was justgoing on the Chicago Marathon
website and actually paying acouple 100 bucks to register for
it. And once you do that, well,then now, now we're in and you
(08:16):
know, even when I cast visionfor us launching a second
campus. Many, many, many yearsago, I remember it's about going
public and and in a message, Icast that vision. And it was
kind of like, all right, there'sno turning back now. So it's
almost like you have to backyourself into a little bit of a
corner. And so grand gesturescome in all kinds of shapes and
(08:39):
sizes. I mean, Jim Carrey wrotehimself a check for $10 million
and in the memo, post dated it10 years out. And sure enough,
that grand gesture came truewith a couple of movies, I
think, one of them being dumband dumber. So you're saying
there's a chance? Yes, I am.
Joshua Johnson (09:01):
That's good.
There is a there is a chance,since we're going there, you
know, a lot of this, this visioninto reality, I'm just take the
story of Abraham. You know,God's telling him a through your
family, there's going to bedescendants, more than you could
count, and there will be theseed. So Jesus comes through the
genealogy the family of Abrahamand Jesus then, hey, we get, we
(09:25):
get everything right? Yeah,death, reconciliation,
redemption, renewal, of allthings. It's, it's amazing, but
from him, but all he saw was hisfamily, and it took a long time
for him to even get a son and beobedient, yep, and he died
before anything was possible.
(09:48):
How do we, like, know, like,Hey, this is a God given dream.
This is something that Godpromised he's going to do in my
life. And we continue to walk itout. And it's. Not just for us,
it could be for generations tocome. But how do we how do we
walk that out? What give us somesome things. How does the story
(10:09):
of Abraham help us out to thinklong term? Well,
Mark Batterson (10:12):
I I kind of employ what I call the crazy
test, that it's got to be crazyenough for God to be in it, and
I'm having a little bit of funwith that, but by definition, a
god sized dream is going to bebeyond your ability, beyond your
education and beyond yourresources. In other words, you
(10:33):
can't do it. It's going tonecessitate some divine
intervention. So come on, let'slive our lives in a way that's
worth telling stories about.
Let's go after a dream that'sdestined to fail without divine
intervention. So I think it hasto be kind of crazy enough, big
enough, and and, you know, acouple named Abraham and Sarah
having a baby at 190respectively, is pretty crazy,
(10:55):
so it requires some divineintervention. So I tend to look
at things like, instead of justdoing things that are kind of on
the outskirts of my humanability, sign me up for
something that is a little bitmore impossible than that. And I
think you have to be careful,because generally speaking,
(11:16):
there's going to be a compoundinterest. So, you know, when I
first started dreaming ofwriting books, I thought, man,
what if I could write a bookthat would sell a million
copies. And, you know, just kindof that would be amazing. And,
well, first book sold 3641copies, okay, so like reality
(11:37):
check. But then that six book,the circle maker, not only sold
a million. I think we're atthree plus and and so it's it's
this, it's where legacy comesinto play. I think that we tend
to overestimate what we can doin a year or two, underestimate
what God can do in 10 or 20legacy is not what you
(11:59):
accomplish. Legacy is whatothers accomplish because of
you. And so that's where Ithink, if a dream is selfish in
nature, I honestly think italways short circuits, like it
just it loses, it losessomething. But if I have a dream
that kind of like John theBaptist, I must become less, and
(12:23):
you must become more. When it'snot about your ego or paycheck,
but it's this intrinsic man. Ireally want to use the gift I
have to glorify God. Then ThenGod has this way of taking five
loaves, two fish, and turning itinto a miracle for 5000 people.
(12:43):
So there's, there's something inthat equation that I think maybe
answers the question you'reasking.
Joshua Johnson (12:52):
Well, I think there's also something where
people, it's not just about, youknow, my dream. So it has to be,
if it's a god sized dream, ithas to be more than just one of
us to accomplish this, right?
It's not really all just aboutme and this dream. It's about
all of us together. What? How dowe start out on that trajectory?
I've seen so many people thatare concerned with legacy at the
(13:14):
end of their their life, andthey're trying to control things
so that they can have a say insomething. But how do you set
something up from the beginningwhen it's not just about what
you want to control at the end,but it's about giving things
away from from the beginning tomake it a god dream and not just
a good idea for me? Wow.
Mark Batterson (13:37):
Well, I'll, I'll make it personal many, many
years ago, probably two decadesago, kind of came up with a list
of 100 life goals, but when Iwent back and looked at them, I
was a little surprised howselfish some of them were, and I
made two changes. One is I addeda relationship component to
(14:02):
almost every dream. So insteadof doing a triathlon, let me do
a triathlon with one of my kids.
Instead of swimming the Escapefrom Alcatraz by myself, let me
do it with one of my kids.
Instead of just going to the topof the Eiffel Tower, how about
if I kiss my wife on the top ofthe Eiffel Tower, that's way
better. So adding a relationalelement and and I, literally, I
(14:27):
say this so often, if it's not awin for you, it's not a win for
me, like I really want tooperate out of a win win. Too
many people have a zero sum gamemindset. And Joshua, even you
know this as a coach, thegreatest athletes aren't
competing against the otherteam. They're always competing
with themselves, like they'retrying to become the best
(14:49):
version of themselves. And thenthe other thing I did with those
life goals is, instead ofgetting goals, I flipped it and
set giving goals. Now you.
Here's here's the reality, ifyou're going to give away X
number of dollars, you probablyare going to have to make a
certain multiple of that, but itchanges the motivation. And so,
(15:10):
you know, one of our goals, mywife and I, is to reverse ties
someday, and that would beliving off a 10% and giving 90%
because you don't take it withyou. And so I think, you know,
there might be something verypractical. There is we're
setting goals, let's make sure,or as we're dreaming, let's make
(15:31):
sure that we're adding value toother people, that it's a win
for everybody. And it's kind ofthis rising tide floats all
boats, so to speak.
Joshua Johnson (15:45):
But if you're in the boat and you're trying to
get to the other side a lot oftimes, you know, if you want to
actually swim from Alcatraz allthe way back to the land, you're
going to be in the middle ofthat water, and you're going to
try to look back, you can't seeanything. You're gonna try to
look forward. You can't seeanything. And you're like, what
did I get myself into? I'm inthe middle of of the ocean, and
(16:09):
I don't know what I'm doing, andyou just keep going. And you
keep going. So when we can'tsee, like, what's ahead, we
can't see what's behind, andwe're in the middle of it, the
really messy middle, yeah. Whatdo we do to keep going? What do
we do with putting one foot infront of the other? How does
this work for us?
Mark Batterson (16:27):
Yeah, well, I might zoom out and kind of big
picture, maybe even put mypastor hat on, because I like
asking this question, whatpercentage of your thoughts and
words, actions and reactions area regurgitation of the news
you're watching or the socialmedia you're consuming. In other
(16:49):
words, are you overly influencedby trending hashtags? Because if
you are, you're going to trendtowards groupthink, popular
opinion, peer pressure,political correctness are going
to be the order of the day, orwhat percentage of your thoughts
and words, actions and reactionsare a revelation you're getting
(17:10):
from God's word. Like, I want tomake sure that I'm taking my
cues from scripture, which forme, is the final authority in
matters of faith and doctrine.
So that's my, I mean, that's myepistemology in a nutshell, that
I've given God veto power, and Ibelieve His Word is inspired. So
I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to liveaccording to that word. So
(17:32):
that's a, you know, when you'rein the middle of the mess, you
really have to, well, there'sprobably a couple of other
things. And I this is, this isthinking on the fly. And it's
fun to think on the fly. Youbetter make sure that you've got
true north, that you understand,that you have this internal
(17:55):
compass, that I have certainconvictions. For example, I want
to be famous in my home. Well,it's hard to be famous in your
home if you're never home. Andso what I had to do years ago
was establish boundaries thatall only do seven overnight
speaking trips a year, becauseif I, if I do more than that,
I'm going to be spread so thinthat the most important people
(18:18):
in my life, will get theleftovers. And the problem with
that is this, I have adefinition of success. Success
is when those who know you bestrespect you most, and that's my
wife and my kids. So so it'slike when, when the compass
needle is spinning and you're inthe middle of the mess, you need
to stay centered and then. Andthen, I'd also say, You better
(18:42):
fix your eyes on Jesus, theauthor and perfecter of faith,
who, for the joy that was setbefore Him, endured the cross,
scorning its shame. Like I wouldsay, Keep on. Keeping on. Keep
calm and carry on, like so muchof life and leadership. I don't
care if we're talking aboutmarriage or or when a team loses
(19:02):
a couple of games in a row andconfidence is shaken like man,
you got to go back to basics.
You got to go back to practicingthe right things, doing the
right things, the inputs, andthen trusting those those
outcomes, so that that would bekind of my initial take, and I
(19:23):
would be interested, like,hearing what I just said, like,
what, what's going through your
Joshua Johnson (19:29):
mind? Yeah, it's convictions, but I think it's
values. For me, it's like, whatare the values and those things
are going to drive who I am,what I'm doing, where I'm going.
I think when you you have eithera monetary goal or, like, a
building goal or, you know,something you could steamroll so
many people if they're if valuesdon't actually drive the day.
(19:52):
Yeah.
Mark Batterson (19:53):
Do you have, like, with the teams that you
coach? Do you occasionally havelike, a theme or. Mantra, or,
you know, like I wrote a book afew years ago called win the
day, and truth be told, I mean,I got that title from a bunch of
football programs that, youknow, they use that little
mantra, win, win the day and,and so, just out of curiosity,
(20:17):
because then I have a thought,because I we produce all kinds
of T shirts or swag that put ourvalues on a shirt. Like, I mean,
the shirt I'm wearing under thissays criticized by creating it's
a Michelangelo. It's one of ourcore values, like, don't just
take pot shots at culture. Like,write a better book, produce a
(20:38):
better film, make better music,start better businesses. So,
but, but I'm curious, like, howhave you done that with your
teams?
Joshua Johnson (20:45):
I think it's those sort of things. It's those
values that live the day. So,you know, it's the little things
that you say all the time. Youknow, you do the little things,
right? Big things will happen.
You know, it's something whatyou just said before. But those
little things, those are thethings that you instill in your
players, those are the thingsthey'll remember, and it's what
they do in the middle of thegame, go, oh, okay, I get that.
(21:05):
I had a friend who won the NCAATournament in golf. He won the
US amateur, US amateur Publix,but his his college coach, his
golf coach, it was all it wasover and over is, finished
strong, finished strong. And itwas, so it was the, you know,
18th hole. He had more birdieson the 18th hole than anybody
(21:29):
else. That's because it wasfinished strong. And that's, you
know, that's what it came sothose are the things that are
really important that drive youwhen you're in the middle of it,
yeah, yep, love it. You know,one of the things that you talk
about here is thatbracciostochrome curve, and I
think that right there is, youknow, from the beginning, it
(21:50):
really highlights whatgradually, then suddenly is, and
what momentum looks like. And I,lot of people love the suddenly,
right? We think the dreams arejust going to happen. We don't
like the gradually, but these,these are long term things to
get to the suddenly, yeah, takeus through that curve and take
us into the place. So you canjust give us a bigger picture of
(22:12):
gradually than suddenly.
Mark Batterson (22:16):
Yeah, I'm about to record the audio book, and I
knew when I put in that curve,I'm like, I'm gonna regret it,
because I'm gonna have to say itabout 10 times. It's a mouthful.
Joshua Johnson (22:29):
It is a mouthful. I had to go look up
how to say it. I had to practiceit like I'm gonna say it once.
That was it.
Mark Batterson (22:36):
You did it better than I can even do it so
but it is kind of a fun the yes,the shortest distance between
two points is a straight line,but it's not the fastest route.
There's actually a curve and andI think there's an application
to life that Well, I even sharethe story in the book about the
(22:59):
first time I dunked abasketball. It was with a cast
on my ankle, and it's because Ithought it was a setback, but it
was a setup like I had to hoparound for weeks on end on one
leg, and that one leg became sostrong after doing that that I
was able to literally dunk abasketball with a cast on the
(23:21):
other foot. So it's this ideaof, listen, sometimes those
setbacks are actually a blessingin disguise and but we only tend
to see it looking back, notlooking forward or in the in the
moment. But the obstacle is notthe enemy. The obstacle is the
way you have to kind of fightyour way through it. You know,
(23:44):
at the end of the day, usuallysuccess is well managed failure.
So you have to be really, reallygood at kind of processing that.
So I think that curve is, isjust part of life. I mean, if
you look at someone like Joseph,for example. I mean, 13 years,
it goes from bad to worse. Imean, he's trafficked, sold into
(24:08):
slavery by his brothers, youknow, ends up in prison on a
false accusation. I mean, it isnot looking good, but all of it
is this incredible setup and andhe has the wherewithal. Genesis,
5020, you intended to harm me,but God intended it for good,
(24:28):
the saving of many lives. Soit's this idea that listen,
simply put, overnight success isan oxymoron, like it doesn't
exist. It usually is 20 years inthe making, as Sam Walton is
purported to have said, as itrelates to Walmart. But it
(24:49):
really is true of everything.
The people who really succeed atthings love, gradually. Love in
fact. Do you know? When JohnWooden retired, he was asked
what he missed most, and itwasn't the championships, it
wasn't hoisting the trophy, itwasn't he said, practice, that's
(25:09):
what he missed the most, andthat whether whether you're a
musician or an athlete or anacademic, like, there's
something to be said there, thatit's this intrinsic motivation
you love practicing your craft,whatever that is, and getting
(25:29):
better and better at it.
Joshua Johnson (25:32):
Yeah, he missed telling his players how to put
on socks the proper way. That'swhat he missed. One of the
quotes that you have in yourbook you, which goes along with
what you just said, is, ifsomeone makes something look
easy, I guarantee it isn't.
Effortlessness is evidence ofextra effort. It's not an easy
thing, right? We got some effortinto it for people, when you're
(25:58):
thinking about God dreams, Ithink some people spiritualize
their dreams in such a way wherethey're like, I don't need to
put any effort in. This is God'sgonna do it. And, you know, I'm
just gonna let God do it. Sowhat do we have to do in the
middle of these God dreams?
(26:18):
Like, what is our role andresponsibility and what's God's
role and responsibility,
Mark Batterson (26:23):
right? Well, I think true wisdom has two sides.
Job, 11, six, and I think youhave to pray like it depends on
God, but you also have to worklike it depends on you, that God
has a way of honoring blood,sweat and tears, that effort
matters. I think when you lovingGod with all of your strength, I
(26:45):
take that very literally, thatit involves a caloric output. So
yesterday, I think I am trainingfor a bike century. So I bike 45
miles, burned about 4000calories, and I feel like I'm
loving God with all of mystrength when I'm on that bike,
like literally, I'm using myenergy to do something that I
(27:11):
think is significant. Andthere's a way to do that that
you can glorify God. Ifscripture says, whether you eat
or drink, do it all to the gloryof God, that tells me kind of
everything is is on the table.
One of my all time favoritequotes is that Dorothy Sayers,
and she said, I dare say that noill fitted drawers or crooked
table legs ever came out of thecarpenter shop in Nazareth. And
(27:35):
it's this idea that long beforeJesus was teaching parables or
doing miracles, He was craftingfurniture. And I've got to think
that he crafted beautiful, wellmade, long lasting furniture. So
I just think whatever you'redoing. It deserves kind of your
(28:00):
best effort. And I, you know, ifsomeone is pulling shots at a
coffee shop, a barista and youcan tell they're putting some
effort, putting some love intoit. You can tell, I mean, I, I
think it tastes better. We havesome some friends who are on the
(28:20):
garbage truck that come by aboutonce a week. And I was out there
with we have one grandson who'sjust a year old, and he, you
know, for him, dump truck orgarage or garbage trucks or or
moving trucks are like thecoolest thing on the planet. And
we were out there, and he wasjust waving to him, and you
(28:44):
could tell, like, I don't know,like, is that? Is that a dream
job? Like, kind of getting yourhands dirty with with garbage? I
don't know if that's a dreamjob, but, man, this guy who does
it is so nice and so good, andit's been so gracious to us. I'm
like, okay, like, I just, Ithink it's, it's doing whatever
(29:08):
you do in a way that that youunderstand you're, you're
honoring God with your effort.
Joshua Johnson (29:16):
One of the most impactful funerals I ever went
to is a guy who died in thisearly 50s. He was a forklift
driver. There were so manypeople that came to his funeral,
and he made such an impact onpeople's lives, because it was
about doing things withexcellence and about the people
around him. And he poured hislife into people while he was
doing whatever job he was doingwith excellence. And that's, I
(29:37):
mean, that's what it is. Sowhat's, what's your shirt say,
criticize by creating, bycreating. Criticized by
creating. So what are youcreating? What? What? What is
happening through your church,or the influence that the church
has had that actually sees some,some creation that these,
there's some God dreams that arehappening. What? What's going
(30:00):
on, what's been created, what islike? Where are we going?
Mark Batterson (30:04):
Yeah, well, Washington, DC is an interesting
place to pastor. I'll say thatright out of the gate. But we're
not just trying to build achurch. We're trying to bless a
city. And so, you know, we maybe able to touch a few 1000
people every weekend, but reallyit's about doing things to the
third and fourth generation. Socouple of examples, like we
(30:26):
bought a we bought a crack houseand turned it into ebenezer's
Coffee House. And every penny ofprofit we give to Kingdom causes
that we care about and and thatincludes a DC Dream Center,
which was an abandoned apartmentbuilding and invested more than
$5 million mayor came out andcut that ribbon. And it's a
(30:49):
place where we're 64 programsrun out of that DC Dream Center.
Because if you want to change acity, you've got to go upstream
and start with kids. And sothose would be a couple of
examples just doing thingsserving our city. And that could
be Listen, cleanup projects, tooutreaches that, you know, an
(31:15):
Easter egg hunt that we do, butit a church that stays within
its four walls, isn't a churchat all. So we've always wanted
to kind of be in our city. Oneof our core convictions is that
God will bless us in proportionto how we give to missions and
care for the poor in our city.
So this year, we'll take 17mission trips, and we'll give $4
million to missions. Now weweren't doing that 29 years ago.
(31:37):
29 years ago, we gave a $50check and thought to ourselves,
like we cannot afford this, butwe started kind of prioritizing,
how do we serve others and andthat would include any church
that's planted in our city. Wewant to be financial
shareholders in it, because it'snot about the name over the
(32:00):
church door. It's about the nameabove all names. So it's, it's
kind of this mindset whereyou're playing the long game.
And I think when you play thelong game, you realize that,
Well, for starters, every pastoris an interim pastor. I mean,
I've had the joy of serving in alead role for 29 years, but I'm
still an interim pastor, even ifI get to do it for 50 years. So
(32:23):
it's, it's kind of that mindsetof, let's not complain about
things. Let's make a difference.
So when our city is kind ofimmigration conversations, and
I, you know, I don't havepolitical or legislative
(32:45):
solutions. That's not the hat Iwear. But there was a season
where we were caring for about65% of the refugees in the DMV.
So like, I think Scripture says,care for the stranger, love the
stranger and and now, now I knowimmediately, then people have
(33:08):
seven follow up questions, and Iget it, it's not, not
complicated, but I feel like wewant to be more known for what
we're for than what We'reagainst, and that means
sometimes just letting your feetdo some of the talking.
Joshua Johnson (33:24):
I think that's right, and I think we need to
care, and we need to care well,you know, my wife and I work
with war refugees for many yearsin the Middle East, so we were
there, and I'll give you ourdream as we went over to the
Middle East, and we said wedreamed that within our
lifetime, movements of Muslimsfollowing Jesus would sweep
across the Arab world,transforming it from within.
(33:44):
And, you know, that's, that's abig God sized dream, like, I
can't do that by myself. My wifeand I can't do it by with each
other. We can't do it with onelittle team. It's going to take
God and a spirit moving in waysthat are well beyond us. Yeah.
And, you know, one of the thingsis, you know our the first you
know refugee that came to know,know Jesus had a dream of Jesus
(34:08):
was was great. A lot of greatthings happened through her. But
it was when her, her daughter,about six years later, came to
know Jesus and said, our familyas well, and my kids were going
to follow Jesus. And I, Ifinally, I just realized that
it's not just that one littlegeneration, but it is now the
(34:29):
generation that comes after heris affected. And then now that
her kids, so the generationafter her is affected. And this
goes generationally deep and notjust wide. How can we, you know,
you're talking about a longlegacy here. How can we have
generational thinking like thisis generational movement. You
(34:51):
look all throughout the Bible,things happen generationally,
and not just in one, you know,setting, but it was generation
after. Generation, what is likehaving a generational mindset
look like,
Mark Batterson (35:04):
yeah, I love, I love the question. Because we
were so short sighted. We're somyopic. We kind of, we live in
news cycles and political cyclesand so, you know, our we kind of
root our thinking in Jeremiah 29where the Israelites, Jewish
(35:27):
people, are in exile in Babylon.
And Hananiah, false prophet,says you're only going to be
there two years. You know,wouldn't that be great? But the
problem is, is, if you have atwo year mindset, you don't even
unpack your suitcase like yourent the city but, but Jeremiah
comes along and says, No, you'regoing to be there 70 years. So
you better plant gardens andbuild houses. Now, what's
(35:49):
interesting is the averagelifespan in that time was 35 so
70 years is thinking, you know,out to that second and third
generation and so literally,like when we bought we bought a
city block on Capitol Hill. AndI mean it, we didn't have a
(36:11):
category for a $29.3 millionbuilding, let alone a city
block. It was bigger than ourvision, but, but not if you
think in terms of three and fourgenerations like what we realize
is that all we're trying to dois set up the next generation.
(36:31):
We drink from wells we didn'tdig, and so we better dig some
wells for the next generation.
And so it really is thismindset, and I think, honestly,
well, tell, let me, I'll ask youthe question, don't you? Don't
you think it seems like we'regetting worse and worse at long
(36:54):
term consequential thinking,because timeframes have become
so shortened that it just seemslike we're making decisions kind
of based on this quarter'snumbers or or this season's win
loss record, instead of thatlong term. I think there's a
question in there somewhere.
Joshua Johnson (37:16):
Well, I think one of the things you're saying
is that time feels like it'sbeen sped up lately? Yes. And
so, because we have a barrage ofinformation, and we have a new
thought and new informationcoming in all the time, we
think, okay, if I respond tothat, that'll be fine. And then
then after, respond to the nextthing. And so that's, it's going
to be difficult for us to to getout of this barrage of
(37:40):
information in this, you know,attention economy that we have,
that it's all about theattention we give. And if it is
an attention economy, then wehave to give the attention back
to God and give back to God.
What is God's which is time andtime, right, emanates from him.
It doesn't emanate from our newsfeed. It doesn't emanate from
our social media feed. Itemanates from God. And so that's
(38:04):
what we're giving back, andthat's where the attention
starts to go. Is that long termthing? But that is, that is the
difficult thing for people andfor all of us, right?
Mark Batterson (38:16):
Yeah, you know it's, it's funny Joshua, because
I it would have been easier towrite a like, I'm trying to
think of the opposite ofgradually, then suddenly like
it. It probably would be morepopular to write like two
minutes to financialindependence or or two days to
(38:40):
accomplish your dreams. It's notreality. I just am more and more
convinced there are noshortcuts. There aren't any
cheat codes. And in fact, thepeople that experience success
too quickly sometimes thereisn't really the character to
kind of support that kind ofsuccess, and you know, then what
(39:02):
happens is, it goes to your headand and it kind of blows up your
ego. And so I look back on it,and, yeah, we've had the joy of
leading a church for 29 yearsthat the that God has blessed
but, but, you know, I share thestory in the book about our
first attempt at church planningwas a failure, and it was so
(39:24):
embarrassing and disorientingwhen it happened, but I look
back on it and I'm like, Oh,what a gift. What a gift to
experience that kind of failurein my early 20s, because then
you're not you're not tempted totake credit for things you
shouldn't be taking credit
Joshua Johnson (39:43):
for. In your book, you you're talking about
this. You're talking about theorder of the mustard seed,
count, sense and dwarf theMoravians, what they're doing,
and you make a correlationbetween the understory of what's
happening underneath and thenthe overstory. And you know, we
see this within. Nature withinforests as well. You know,
trees, you have what's going onup top, but the stuff underneath
(40:06):
is really where the magichappens. And, you know, the
roots are being formed. And youtalk in there that really, it's
about consecrating ourselves toGod. Is the thing that's going
to, you know, propel us intothat place. Can you just talk
about maybe the Moravians thereorder the mustard seed and
consecration and the importanceof consecration?
Mark Batterson (40:28):
Yeah, well, they they started 100 year prayer
meeting, 24/7 and it's hard tocalculate kind of all of the
cultural impact that that hadbut pretty, pretty profound,
yes. So I think part of what youknow, part of what I'm trying to
(40:51):
get at there is like we need tohave long vision, and long
vision, by definition, can't beaccomplished in your lifetime.
And so how are we dreaming intosomething that's bigger and
longer here in all I'll make itreally practical, like I think
(41:13):
we are so often discouraged ordisheartened by news. I mean,
take a week, any week, andsomething happened that's
absolutely devastating, ashooting over here or a tragedy
over there. And because socialmedia, which is kind of like the
(41:37):
tree of knowledge that I don'tthink we have the emotional or
intellectual capacity to knowabout everything that's
happening all the timeeverywhere, like it just we. We
aren't created that way. And sowhat happens is we become
overwhelmed by the latestheadline and but, but Joshua,
(41:59):
that's the understory. That'sthe understory. The overstory is
the kingdoms of this world arebecoming the kingdom of our Lord
and of His Christ. Every kneewill bow, every tongue will
confess to the glory of God, theFather that Jesus is King of
Kings and Lord of lords. There'sno other name under heaven,
(42:20):
given unto men by which we canbe and must be saved. And guess
what? Every nation, tribe,people, language, will worship
around that throne. Come onchurch, that the day is coming
that there will be no more deathor mourning or crying or pain.
You have got to keep locked andloaded on that over story. And
that's true of our lives. Like,I mean, we get in our heads and
(42:46):
we overthink, whether it's likeI had a bad game or we had a bad
day as a married couple, oranything in between. Like, you
can get so locked in that littleunderstory that then you forget,
kind of the overstory in the bigpicture. So I think part of the
(43:09):
part of gradually, thensuddenly, is, let's, let's zoom
out, widen the aperture, wideangle lens, get a little bit of
perspective. I mean, I even pokeat something. CS Lewis said that
between every new book you read,you better read an old one,
(43:29):
otherwise you become a captiveto the spirit of the age. And so
even in that like, if we aren'tcareful, we get trapped in these
news cycles, or we get trappedin mindsets or world views that
are Johnny Come Lately, insteadof really understanding the meta
(43:52):
narrative, kind of the grandnarrative of Scripture, from
Genesis to Revelation,
Joshua Johnson (43:57):
it's so important to live into The God
story, this metanarrative, andwe know it, that really
transforms the way that we livein our lives. Mark, if you had
one hope for your readers ofgradually, then suddenly, what
hope would you have for yourreaders?
Mark Batterson (44:13):
You know, I would love it if, if as as
people are reading the book,that the spirit would do what
the Spirit does, and just giveGod ideas. Like, Good ideas are
good, but God ideas change thecourse of history. So I think
there are so many inspirationalstories, stories that I've drawn
(44:36):
tremendous courage andinspiration from. Like, I mean,
one of my favorites, how do wenot even talk about Amos Alonzo
Stagg, you know, the legendarycoach, won two national
championships, coached until hewas 98 years old, and was asked
the question like, you know, bya reporter. How he felt about
(45:00):
how successful his season was,he says, oh, no, no, ask me in
20 years, because that's whenI'll see how my players turned
out. It, you know, I'm hopingthat, whether you're a coach or
an entrepreneur, full time momor dad, whatever, whatever it
is, like your blue collar, yourwhite collar, that doesn't
(45:25):
matter. I think it's aboutunderstanding that we're
something, a part of somethingthat's bigger and better and
longer and take take this toheart. God is always writing a
bigger story. I remind myself ofthat all the time, and so I
think, I think it's a book thatwill encourage long vision, long
(45:47):
obedience, and hopefully net along legacy.
Joshua Johnson (45:51):
Two quick questions at the end here, I
like to ask one, if you go backto your 21 year old self, what
advice
Mark Batterson (45:56):
would you give enjoy the journey. I'll just
every age, every stage, enjoythe journey
Joshua Johnson (46:02):
that's good.
Anything you've been reading orwatching lately you could
recommend,
Mark Batterson (46:07):
oh, my goodness, I have been deep diving AI, both
the practitioner side and thetheory side, and the unintended
consequences or implications ofwhere that could take us? Yeah,
I'm not a particularly technicalguy. In fact, I'll even say I've
(46:27):
never used AI to help me do anyof my writing, which is kind of
mind boggling, because the truthis, are there any students left
that aren't using AI to helpthem with an assignment? But I
and so I like reading. I likereading about the everything
(46:49):
from science astrophysics totrees to history to biography.
Just read River of Doubt,another Teddy Roosevelt
biography. So I that's a hardquestion for me, because I,
like, I have this diet of, like,biography, history, science and
(47:09):
theology, and I just every ologyis a branch of theology. So I
kind of like putting all of thatin the in the Vitamix, if you
will.
Joshua Johnson (47:19):
That's great.
Well, gradually, then suddenly,it's out everywhere, beginning
November mark. This book isfantastic. As you said, there's
so many inspirational stories inthis book. It is fantastic. I
love to going through it. I'mexcited to read it again with
other people. To invite peopleto dream and dream god sized
dreams. How would you like topoint people to to get the book?
(47:42):
Is there anywhere they'd like topoint people to as well?
Mark Batterson (47:47):
Yeah, probably if, if folks pop over to Mark
batterson.com there's a freesample chapter. But then a lot
of resources and things thatare, I just want to add value.
Whether you get the book or not,you'll find resources there that
I think can help you in yourspiritual journey, but also in
(48:08):
that gradually, then suddenlyjourney and and then I'm on
social Instagram. X. MarkBatterson,
Joshua Johnson (48:17):
all right. Well, Mark, thank you for this
conversation. It was fantastic.
Hopefully you're going to go andpractice bratchas chrome curve,
and you could be able to say theword, you'll get it down as you
read the audio. But I reallyenjoyed connecting with you,
sharing dreams and seeing whatGod could do. So this is
fantastic.
Mark Batterson (48:36):
Thanks so much.
Joshua, God bless. Yeah. You.
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