Ep. 361 Kat Armas Returns - Liturgies for Resisting Empire

Kat Armas joins Shifting Culture to talk about her new book, Liturgies for Resisting Empire, a powerful exploration of how empire shapes the way we think about God, community, time, and ourselves. She names the ways control, hierarchy, and productivity have distorted our faith and imaginations, and invites us into practices of resistance rooted in love, rest, and belonging. Kat offers a vision of wholeness that embraces paradox over dualism, kinship over domination, and peace over violence. This conversation points us toward a more human way of living. One where we belong without conditions and find God in the places empire forgets.

Kat Armas is a Cuban American writer, speaker, and theologian from Miami, FL. She holds a ThM from Vanderbilt Divinity School, and a dual MDiv and MAT from Fuller Theological Seminary where she was awarded the Frederick Buechner Award for Excellence in Writing.

Her first book, Abuelita Faith: What Women on the Margins Teach Us About Wisdom, Persistence and Strength, sits at the intersection of women, decolonialism, the Bible, and Cuban identity. Her second book, Sacred Belonging: A 40-day Devotional on the Liberating Heart of Scripture invites readers to encounter the Bible through a decolonized lens, lifting up themes of creation, wisdom, spirit, the body, and the feminine.

Kat has spoken at seminaries, universities, and conferences nationwide and her work has appeared in the National Catholic Reporter—where one of her essays was shared by the pope!, Plough Magazine, The Christian Century, Christianity Today, Sojornours Magazine, and more.

Kat currently lives on a small farm in middle Tennessee with her family—which includes her spouse, young children, chickens, goats, pigs, dogs, and cats. Her forthcoming third book Liturgies for Resisting Empire: Seeking Community, Belonging, and Peace in a Dehumanizing World examines the ideologies of empire that infiltrate daily life and offers a pathway toward liberation. It releases November 4th.

Kat's Book:

Liturgies for Resisting Empire

Kat's Recommendations:

The Correspondent

Tell Me Everything

Resident Alien

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Episode Transcript

Kat Armas (00:00):
I think that belonging is the foundation to

(00:03):
so much of the human experience.
But belonging with an empire isalways conditional. You belong
so long as you you know X, Y andZ, or you belong if X, Y and Z,
and I think that that's what wesee in the church, right? You
Belong if you do these things orsay this prayer or believe this
exact you know theology, butwhat would it look like to

(00:24):
belong to a community or belongto a people that you belonged
with no ifs or buts orconditions you

Joshua Johnson (00:46):
Josh, hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ look like Jesus. I'm yourhost. Joshua Johnson, belonging
shouldn't come with conditionsyet so often in a world shaped
by Empire, it does. Cat armasreturns to shifting culture to

(01:07):
share from her new book,liturgies for resisting empire,
a powerful invitation torediscover community, belonging
and peace in a dehumanizingworld. Together, we talk about
how Empire has seeped into ourlanguage, our theology, our
sense of time and productivity,and how we could begin the
lifelong work of untangling itfrom our hearts and minds. Kat

(01:29):
points us toward embodiedresistance, putting our hands in
the soil, resting when we'reweary, listening to wisdom from
the margins, and belongingwithout ifs or buts. We explore
how Jesus subverts the violenceof empire, not with power or
domination, but through peace,love and shared humanity. This
conversation is a liturgy ofreimagining, a reminder that

(01:53):
another way of living andanother way of belonging is
possible. So join us. Here is myconversation with cat. Armas,
cat, welcome back to shiftingculture. Excited to have you
back

Kat Armas (02:05):
on. Thank you so much for having me.

Joshua Johnson (02:07):
Yeah, I'm really excited to get into resisting
empire. Your new book, liturgiesfor resisting empire. I think is
fantastic. I love the subtitle,because we're seeking community,
belonging and peace in adehumanizing world. I think
dehumanization is is a bigproblem. I think we've forgotten
how to be human. So how doesEmpire dehumanize us? Like, what

(02:31):
is empire? Let's start withthat. Like, what is empire?
Because that's a big old topic,and it's a big thing, and we all
have different ideas of whatthat is. So what do you say?
What do you mean when you sayempire?

Kat Armas (02:43):
Yeah, well, that is the question, right? What is
empire? I think that wasactually the reason why I wanted
to write this book. I writeabout this in the book. But I
was sitting, you know, I've beenstudying post colonial theology
and theory for several years,and I was sitting with some
seminary friends, and I'm sortof talking about Empire, and I'm

(03:04):
saying, Man, you know, theseconversations we're having in
the academy, and I think that weneed to be having them outside
of the academy, because there'sjust so many conversations
happening, right? And so myfriend sat there with me, and
they, you know, their eyes sortof lit up, and they were like,
Oh my goodness. You know, wewere just sitting with our
church friends and, you know, insmall group or whatever. And we
started talking about this verytopic, and we were like googling

(03:26):
Webster's Dictionary, like, whatis empire? You know, because it
really is such a big, convolutedterm idea, just thing in
general. So I will say, toanswer that question, there is
so many ways you can answer thatquestion. There are so many
different sorts of definitions,and so many experts and
historians and, you know, allsorts of things, political

(03:49):
theorists, and they'll give youall different kinds of answers.
So I think for me, I wanted tofocus on more, you know, modern
right, like, how has Empireaffected us in our in America,
more modern day, andspecifically the church, right?
I think that's why, because thisis obviously a book, a
theological book, a book about,you know, book with liturgies. I

(04:09):
wanted that to be the, the, sortof, the main focus. So I will
say, in general, Empire isreally just a relationship
between a dominant ruling stateand then a less dominant one,
right? So it's a relationshipbetween a dominant power and,
you know, a more, I guess youcan say oppressed or less
dominant power. Originally itmeant sort of a state or a

(04:29):
political system governed by anemperor. And then in the time of
Rome, that sort of moved to, toinclude the idea of expansion,
and so the idea of, you know,sort of holding power in across
distant lands and distantpeople. And so that's where you
literally see, right, likeempires going in and taking

(04:50):
control of other lands, nottheir own, and other people's
right? And this, of course, withit comes so many things. I mean,
you're talking about culture andlanguage. And just so many other
things that come alongside ofit. Now, Empire in the modern
sense, I mean, we still sort ofhave that, you know, old school
and by and I did air quoteshere, old school idea of empire,

(05:10):
as in, like, physically, youknow, marching into other lands
and seizing them. But now we seemore of this idea of
imperialism, which is what Ilike to understand as the energy
behind expansion, right? The thesort of the spirit behind
conquest, so like the, like theUS and Latin America, right? Or

(05:32):
the the idea that, you know,McDonald's and Amazon and Disney
have so much power, culturalpower, over other, you know,
quote, unquote, distant parts ofthe world. And I just mean
distant, as in, in in relationto, you know, the Western US.
So, yeah, I think so thatessentially is what Empire is.

(05:53):
And when I talk about empire,I'm looking at that more of
this, this idea, this energy ofcontrol and dominance over other
people's, other people's cultureand other people's just way of
being, a way of thinking, way ofjust being in the world, right?

(06:14):
And so I focus on, you know,Christianity. And obviously,
there's no official Christianempire, but the way that
Christianity functions in theworld is much like an empire,
right? It is a relationship ofdominance and control, and, you
know, and we might talk aboutthis more later, but just the
idea of, you know, the waymissions, you know, work happens

(06:34):
across the world. I mean, it'snot just, you're not just
sharing Jesus, you're sharingyour version of Jesus, your
version of Christianity, yourversion of morals and values.
And you know, so it's way morethan than what Christianity sort
of presents itself. It really isa relationship of dominance. And
with that comes hierarchy, comescoercion, you know, so many of

(06:55):
these things that really we'rejust trying to undo. And really
what I argue the early churchwas trying to undo as well. So,
yeah, it's a convolutedquestion, and maybe also a
convoluted answer.

Joshua Johnson (07:07):
So those big forces, as they come and they
actually go around the worldnow, imperialism is happening
around the world. It seems likethere's a monoculture that is
happening. It seems to be likethis force is merging all the
cultures together to create onemonolithic culture, right? That

(07:27):
we're losing some of ourselves,right? How do we start to like
untangle what we've lost andwhat we are losing when Empire
controls and we forget whatbeing human in a community looks
like, Yeah,

Kat Armas (07:45):
well, I mean, I feel like that is, again, you know,
sort of the question, how do weuntangle it? And, I mean, that's
what I'm attempting to do, youknow, I think there's so many
ways to untangle and I thinkthat that is, you know, I think
essentially what you're askingalso is like, how do we
decolonize, right? Like, if, ifEmpire is essentially this
colonial this colonizing force,then how do we decolonize? How

(08:08):
do we untangle the, you know,the tentacles of empire from
our, you know, hearts and mindsand bodies. And I think that
that is a journey that we aregoing to be on for the rest of
our lives. I think, you know,that's sort of what I argue in
this book. In this book, is thatthe ideology, plural of empire,
are so intertwined into how wethink and how we just understand

(08:32):
ourselves as human beings, howwe understand God, how we relate
to one another, how we belong.
They're so intertwined into ourdaily lives that I think
untangling them is going to takea consistent, intentional,
lifelong Effort, Right? Andthat's not something that should
discourage us. Or I think it canbe creative, right? There's so

(08:53):
much creativity, so many waysto, you know what we say, quote,
unquote, resist. And there's somany ways to, yeah, to stand
against these ideologies. And itdepends on, you know, who we
are, what our passions are,where we you know, where we fit
and function in this world. AndI think that there are different

(09:14):
ways that we can entangle,right? I think for all of us, it
would do us well to get to knowthe earth, right? That's one way
that I feel like we can begin todisentangle, like, literally,
physically stick our hands inthe dirt, you know, get to know
the the earth from which givesus life and breath and food. And
I think understanding the waysthat we spend our money, I mean,

(09:36):
yeah, there are so many ways,right, how we understand our
relationship to productivity andto time, you know, how, what's
our relationship, or even how wethink about duality and pair? I
mean, there's really so manyways we can entangle, and I hope
that in this book, we can kindof see, just in the different
ways I talk about, you know, howour relationship. To our body

(09:59):
can change, and how ourrelationship with that, you
know, I kind of put the body andtime together, which might seem
like two different things, butreally they're not. I think how
we view our how we view time andhow we view our bodies, I think,
are inextricably connectedbecause of things like
capitalism and but, yeah, Ithink that untangling is a
lifelong intentional effort thatrequires us to really pay

(10:20):
attention and learn. I think,you know, that's another reason
why I wrote this book. I thinkit's important that we we kind
of know how we got here, right?
Like, where, what are we talkingabout? We say, Empire. How did
we get here, you know, what are,what are the ideologies of
empire that have seeped into ourinto our bones, really? And,
yeah, how can we sort of startto point those out in our own

(10:43):
personal lives and then begin toentangle them? You know, I think
of some of these ideologiesinclude, like hierarchy, for
example, how do we engage inhierarchical relationships in
our family, in our you know, inhow we engage at work, at
church, you know, whatever itis, how does hierarchy seep into
our thinking and our way ofbeing? You know, as a mom, I

(11:04):
think about that all the time.
You know, of course, it's my jobto lead and guide my children.
But is it really a relationshipwhere I see my children as equal
and I am guiding them as equals?
And yes, of course, I might knowmore and have lived longer. And
yes, my brain is more rationaland all the things right. But I
think there is, you know, adimension of how hierarchy has,

(11:25):
you know, bred so much of toxicthinking and upbringings, and,
you know, I mean, so much of theways that we have harmed our
children by seeing them asreally nothing on the, you know,
The ladder of hierarchy orproductivity, right? How do we
push our bodies and ourselvesand what does our work ethic

(11:46):
look like? What do we expectfrom our family members, our
children? What do we expect fromthe people we work with or for?
What do we demand of them, youknow? So I think, yeah, there
are so many ways we can untangleand I think it begins with
knowing how we got here, whatare the ideologies of empire
that have seeped into our bodiesand our bones, and what is, how

(12:08):
does it affect us personally?
And how can we begin to say,oof, yeah, I have a really,
really messed up relationship totime or to productivity or to
the way that I see reality isvery dualistic, or I don't have
a very diverse pool of what I'mlearning from, or who I'm

(12:29):
learning from, or the peoplethat surround me. Or I do see
the world in very muchdominance, in sort of
submission, type of way, orviolence is a big one. I know
empire, you know, one of themain things of Empire is
violence. And how does violence,how has it, infiltrated our
theology, even our language? Italk about this in the book, but

(12:50):
the way that we talk, the waythat we, you know, worship, is
so steeped in militaristiclanguage. So I think it's all of
these things put together, youknow, can help us to untangle.
Sorry, that was a really longresponse. But there's so many
ways I

Joshua Johnson (13:06):
want to actually, then bring it back
into Jesus and her faith andChristianity and what that looks
like. Give me just like a brief,like foundational what did Jesus
bring to this world? What islike a foundational faith, and
where has, like, the language ofempire veered us off path from

(13:27):
what Jesus brought to us.

Kat Armas (13:30):
Okay, great, yeah, I'll start with the last
question, our language, right?
So I'll start with, kind ofwhere we're at and where we've
been, and then sort of whereJesus, what I've seen in the
life of Jesus and what we I knowwe talk about a lot in, you
know, and just in generalconversation and culture, but
yeah, I mean, we are steeped in,you know, militaristic and
violent ideologies and language.

(13:55):
I mean, I wrote about this. Iwrote about a chapter in my
book, but also on sub stack andvarious places on the internet.
But I remember being a kid, and,you know, one of our main things
was, you know, we're in theLord's army, and I, you know,
I'm here this like, you know,young in Sunday school, you
know, I was raised Catholic, soeven in catechism, you know,

(14:15):
class, and I'm here marching andpretending I have a sword and,
and that's, you know, it'sfunny, but it's also like,
that's how we really understandour relationship to God and, and
as a, you know, response, ourrelationship to others in the
world as being in this cosmicbattle, this cosmic war, because

(14:37):
we're so used to that you mighthear that and think, Well, yeah,
there's good and evil. Fine. Youknow, I'm not saying that good
and evil don't exist whatever,but what I'm saying is that
we're conditioned from early onto think that we constantly have
to be fighting and constantlyhave to be suppressing and
dominating and controlling andcoercing, right in order. To

(15:00):
belong to this sort of, youknow, eternal divine kingdom.
And the reason for that is, andbecause that's in the Bible,
right? I mean, you haveEphesians six, and it's in the
Bible. But what I'm sort ofarguing in my book, and you
know, is that the reason why somuch of the language in
Scripture is militaristic, isbecause the Bible was written

(15:24):
within empire to a people thatwere trying to contend with what
it meant to live within theempire, right? And so they had,
that's the only language thatthey had. Right is we live in
this extremely violent,oppressive and suppressive
empire. And that's what ourlanguage, that's the, you know,

(15:46):
that's the framework with thatwe that they had, right? They
couldn't envision anythingdifferent because it didn't
exist, you know. And so they,you know, when the Bible was
written, it was written withthis language in mind. And then,
of course, it's just been read,you know, quote, unquote,
literally. And so we'vecontinued that language in this,
you know, sort of frame ofthinking for, you know, 1000s of

(16:06):
years. When I argue that, whenyou look at the life of Jesus,
while Jesus and the, you know,authors in Scripture, and many
of the writers in Scripture,also, you know, they do use that
militaristic language. So muchof it is, well, both, and so
much of it is both a subversionto the Empire. And also I, you

(16:28):
know, I argue sort of like acapitulating to the Empire,
because, again, there was noother imagination, right? And
so, you know, talking aboutdualism and paradox, I don't
think the Bible is a straightanti Imperial manifesto. I also
don't think the Bible is a proempire, you know, book either. I
think what it is is, as Imentioned, it's people

(16:51):
contending. How do I do thisthing? Just how we are people
contending. How do I do thisthing? Right? How do I you asked
me, How do we untangle that isthe question. And I think that
is the question that the NewTestament writers were asking,
right? How do we wrestle withthis thing? How do we belong to

(17:12):
an eternal Kingdom when we'reliving in this violent,
suppressive and oppressivekingdom, how is it supposed to
look different? And I think wecan see in various places how
it's supposed to look different,right? I mean, you have Jesus
literally turning his cheek whenhe you know, and when he gets

(17:33):
hit by a, you know, when theycome at him, he turns the other
way and, and there's so many, somuch of what he's saying is, you
know, this is not how we aresupposed to be. We are not
supposed to define ourselves bythe way that empire defines us,
but by how God and God's Kingdomdoes. And this is that there is

(17:53):
no hierarchy, there is no Jew,there is no Greek, there is no
you know, there is diversity inthis kingdom, right? It is not a
mono kingdom, as, you know, asyou mentioned, a mono culture,
you know, we are to be incommunity and resting and living
as the seasons guide us, right?
Look at the flowers. They don'tworry or stress. I don't think

(18:15):
that that's like a, you know, Idon't stress. I think it's,
watch how the seasons and theearth provides, right? There are
so many ways that Jesus ispointing us to, hey, live this
way. And I think the authors arealso contending with that,
right? They're saying, Ooh. Butalso, you know, this is violent

(18:37):
here. And, you know, so I thinkit's just a conversation that
we're having. They were havingtoo.

Joshua Johnson (18:45):
I want to go into Ephesians six, if you want.
Can we go into Ephesians six thefull armor of God. So when this
this language of armor, it's amilitaristic language. Paul's
saying we don't struggle againstflesh and blood. So he's saying
it's not actually a physical,violent type of passage, but we
we take it to be physicallyviolent. So can you just help

(19:09):
somebody dealing with thispassage? Because we use it all
the time. We're having kids puton their armor, you know, they
got all this stuff. How do weactually, then talk about this
in a way that it dispels someempire and militaristic
language, but it actually showsus what Paul was getting at and

(19:30):
what we're supposed to do. Yeah.

Kat Armas (19:32):
No, that's a great question, and I think Yeah. So
you know the full armor of Godthat Paul is talking about in
Ephesians six, obviously, isspeaking to Roman like, what the
armor that the Roman militarywore? Right? They wore
breastplates and swords and, youknow, all the things, right?
Which is funny, because, yeah,we talk about that now, but also
this is not even our armor, likewe don't even wear that armor.

(19:54):
So it's, you know, but anyway,yeah, so that's what the Roman
military wore. And so Paul. Is,you know, saying, Yeah, put on
that armor. And he's talkingabout the breastplate, and he's
talking about the helmet and allthe things, hold on, let me I'm
pulling up here, the breast, thebelt and the breastplate. But
notice that when he brings upthis armor, he turns the imagery

(20:15):
right, so you have, I mean, youthink about a sword and a
helmet. I mean, this is alllike, very defensive, very like,
you know, ready to fight, sortof imagery. But then he says,
Stand firm with the belt of whattruth right, like that. Truth is
not this defensive armor, likeno and then he says, and the

(20:38):
breastplate of what ofrighteousness or justice, right,
with your feet, with the gospelof peace, right? So he's like
taking this language, you know,and so much, so much of, I
think, this ideology and thesenarratives are instilled in us
through language. Language is soimportant, and language was, I

(21:00):
mean, when it when it comes toEmpire, when it comes to
colonization, I mean, languagewas the thing that the
colonizers sort of used tocolonize, right? English is sort
of the became, like the mainlanguage, and everything was,
was sort of, you know, setagainst this backdrop of the
English language. So, anyways,side note on language, but, but,

(21:23):
yeah. Then he says, you know,your feet with peace. And then
the shield, right now, it's ashield of what a faith and and
this is how we can extinguish,extinguish the flaming arrows of
the evil one, with peace, with,you know, truth, with justice,
with all of these things thatare so anti the Empire. I mean,

(21:46):
the Empire was not about truth.
The Empire was not about justiceor righteousness. The Empire was
not about peace. It was theopposite right. You know, peace,
peace. They say, when there isno peace, it's all about
violence and warfare. And so Ithink that here you have, like,
this very, very obvious anddirect subversion of empire. You
know, it's like saying, allright, you know, let's take your

(22:09):
guns and your, you know,whatever, and instead, like they
say, right? Like plowshares, orinstead, we're going to turn
them into flowers. I don't know,you know what I mean, so it's
like this very directsubversion. But because we've so
been trained and we've so, youknow, military language,

(22:29):
militaristic language andviolent language is so normal
and common and comfortable forus that we read that and we're
like, oh, yeah, cool piece. Butalso, put on that armor, because
we're going to war, you know, wekind of ignore the rest, where
you're like, Yeah, peace,righteousness, truth, whatever.
But no, but you're in battle,guys. So, you know what I mean?
So, yeah, I think that that's,you know, I think it is a direct

(22:50):
subversion to Empire. Now,that's not to say that
everything Paul says is a directsubversion to Empire. I think,
you know, Paul was a man thatlived in the empire. I mean,
there was a lot of things thatPaul said, or, you know,
Ephesians, I'm not gonna sayPaul here, but there was a lot
of things that the authors ofScripture said that were, you
know, yeah, they were steeped inmilitaristic language. And I

(23:12):
think that's why it's our job asfaithful. And, you know,
learned, you know, contemporaryscholars of the Bible to
understand this history in thiscontext, be able to say, oh,
okay, well, that makes sense,not not to outright say, I'm not
going to use this passage, butto just understand the language,
or to understand why certainthings were said and why others

(23:34):
weren't, and how they differfrom, you know, our current
context.

Joshua Johnson (23:39):
Yeah, one of your chapters, you talk about
ideology, so rejecting ideologyand then embracing wisdom.
Ideology itself is somethingthat is. It's kind of difficult,
I think, for people to grasp ahold of what it what it is, what
it looks like. Hannah Arendt,I'll just tell you one of her
quotes about ideology. She saysan ideology differs from a

(24:00):
single political opinion in thatit claims to possess either the
key to history or the solutionfor all the riddles of the
universe, or the intimateknowledge of the hidden
universal laws which aresupposed to rule nature and man.
And so I think that these theseideologies that empire has
thrown at us, that we say, Okay,this set of ideas really unlocks

(24:23):
everything. I'm going to hold tothat. And if you don't hold to
that, you're wrong. We'rebasically saying that ideology
Trumps humans, and we're goingto actually kill or be killed
over these core ideas that webelieve, because we think that
this is actually the key to theuniverse, yeah, how do we know

(24:47):
that we're holding on to anideology rather than the wisdom
of God?

Kat Armas (24:52):
Yeah, that's a great question, and I think it's
harder now more than ever. Ithink because of just the world
we live. Live in and the waythat these ideologies are so
passed on. And, you know, it'sfunny, I had a relationship with
someone really close to thisperson, and you know, her and I,
we adored each other. And thenthroughout the whole, you know,

(25:15):
election season, we I watchedthis person go from not
necessarily a Kamala Harrissupporter, you know. I know a
lot of people didn't like her,even people on the left fine to
all out Trump. I mean, all out,bought out for Trump signs and
you know. And this is a personyou know, person of color, like
someone you know. And I saythat, I only say that to say

(25:36):
that we live in a very uniquetime in history. Barbara F
Walter, she's the author of HowCivil War start, incredible
book, if you haven't read ityet. It's alarming and, you
know, sobering. And she talksabout how we live in a unique
time in history where, you know,and I hate to be on social
media, but really, I mean, somuch of these, you know,
narratives, and that's somethingI want to say about ideology,

(25:58):
that they are narratives. But somuch of these narratives are,
you know, they're in front ofus, and they're so quickly
digestible without nuance,without context, and it's so
easy to become radicalized overand so easy to, you know,
believe ideologies just from afrom a flip of your thumb,
right? And so anyways, I bringup my, my, my, this person that

(26:21):
I loved, because I remember, youknow, they would send me these
videos, these, you know, tiktoksand instagram videos. And, you
know, watch this and, oh mygoodness, you know. And I would
say, I don't consume my newsthat way, like I just kept
saying, I'm not gonna watch thisvideo, because I don't consume
my news that way. Send me anarticle, send me an article that

(26:43):
is fact checked, and, you know,I that's what I want to read.
And they said, Well, I'm a busy,you know, I'm a busy parent. I
don't have time to read thosearticles. And so this is how,
you know, and I thought, wow,you know, no judgment to that
person in the sense that, like,I'm a busy mom, too. Yeah, I get
that, you know, I totally getthat. But I think that, yeah,
we've, we've come to a place inour society where, you know, we

(27:06):
just need, we just need itquick. And so ideology now just
becomes easier than ever tobelieve as sort of the, yeah,
the key, the solution, whatever.
Now I, you know, that's justsort of a side note, but I say
that to say that ideologies sortof sustain themselves through
narratives, right? I believethat the ideologies become what

(27:27):
they are through the telling ofstories. And so we sort of
believe these narratives, thatwe believe them throughout
history, and it's these storiesthat because that's how we
understand ourselves, that's howwe understand the world, is
through story, right? And so,when we believe these really,
whether it's stories that drawfear, whether it's stories, and

(27:48):
a lot of them are, you know,ideologies do happen through
fear driven narratives, right?
And so, and I saw this in, youknow, this person that I had a
relationship with. I saw this,it's this narrative. And I'm
seeing this sort of narrativeform in in their mind and in
their lives. And I'm watchinghow everything that they're

(28:11):
scrolling through is sort of,you know, responding to and
affirming this narrative. And soI think when it comes to
ideology, the dominant powersthey have, the power to sort of
shape, create or silencenarratives. And that's the
history of colonization. Rightto be colonized is to have your

(28:36):
story sort of stripped from you,to have the ability to tell your
story, or your story to be takenfrom you. I mean, you look at
just the the way that, that youknow, throughout history,
colonizers have been able tojustify colonization is through
the telling of stories, right? Imean, like I write about in my

(28:56):
book, you have Alexander theGreat carried the Iliad in his
hand. I mean, these are justlike, yes, these are stories of
triumphant I mean, that's therole the Bible has played for
many, you know, in in the roleof Christianity, it's just been
this story of a triumphantwarrior God, you know,
suppressing the evil enemy. Andthat can look like so many

(29:18):
different things. And so I thinkideology is steeped in
narrative, right? And when thenarrative gets distorted, you
know, I think that that's how wecan just kind of go with that
go, go with that story, and wesee it. I mean, you know, the
way that certain even now. Imean, certain stories are being

(29:40):
suppressed, and history is beingchanged. And, you know, oh, you
know, well, the history of this,you know, wasn't that bad. Or,
you know, I know that in Floridathat the curriculum was changed
to say that slaves benefitedfrom slavery, right? Those who
were enslaved benefited fromslavery. Just, just, it could be
the most, you know, simple what?
Seemingly simple and seeminglysmallest changes to the

(30:02):
narrative. But I think that thatis how ideology sort of sustains
itself and thrives. We have anarrative that we are, that we
need to be afraid, or that weare losing, or whatever it is,
yeah, then the solution becomes,you know, this is what we need
to do, and we will die for thisthing, because this is the only

(30:25):
thing that will save us. This isthe only person that will save
us. And that is another hugething about empire, is the idea
that empire is the Savior,right, even though Empire causes
right, the sort of the need forsalvation, it then presents
itself as the Savior. I mean,you look at Rome, and it's
funny, you know, I talk about,if you've ever been to Rome, you

(30:46):
can see this. I mean, Rome wasall about the narrative. It told
of itself, right? And so you goto Rome, and you see all the
porticos and all the statues andand they all have engraved, you
know, engravings on them. Andthat's how, you know, they sort
of told the story of Rome. Andin all of these engravings, you
have this story of this, youknow, the Rome defeated the
enemy, and Rome, you know,protected itself by subduing the

(31:10):
barbarian. And you know, all ofthese things. And you know, a
lot of these are feminized,right? A lot of these people
that they are subduing, or a lotof the time, you know, these
feminine, feminine looking, youknow, beasts or creatures or
people. And this is the story.
It's told, you know, and it's,it's funny, because in Rome, and
also in in the history ofempire, it's sort of like this,

(31:33):
oh, well, it's self defense. Youknow, they're coming after us,
and so we just have to defendourselves. And therefore we will
do anything to defend ourselveswhen, you know, really the only
threat is empire itself, right?
So, yeah, I think, when it comesto ideology, I think it's
steeped in narrative and andfear based narratives, and it's,
it's a story that is created toso that it can sustain itself.

Joshua Johnson (31:56):
So empire, you say, also, then creates this
dualism, right? That's binarythinking. It's us versus them.
They're attacking us. We'redefending ourselves. It is power
over how do we resist thisbinary thinking way of thinking
and hold the tension of paradoxof what is reality on the ground

(32:19):
and what is real and not justthis dualism, which is really
harmful today.

Kat Armas (32:26):
Yeah, you know, I think dualism is a really,
really, really, really hard one,because dualism is so embedded
into Western thinking, not justtheology, but just general
thinking. I think that is reallyat the crux of so much of how we
present our relationships,right? I mean, I mean, I'm
thinking about right hierarchy,or I'm thinking about all of

(32:50):
these homogeneity, right? All ofthat is sort of the bedrock of
that is dualism, right? One isbetter or one is worse. One
deserves to be on top, while theother is on the bottom. I mean,
I think dualism is really thecrux of it all, and it's so
steeped in Western thinking, andit's steeped and it's so
personal too. And I think that'sthe thing about dualism, that
it's not just how we viewothers, right? We see others,

(33:12):
yes, us versus them, or thisperson you know, has more value
than the other, whatever, butit's so personal. It's dualism
is so embedded into who we are.
I mean, so much of how we viewour own selves is so fragmented,
and Christianity only makes thisworse. You know, the mind versus
the body and the soul. You know,the spirit versus the heart, and
the heart is deceitful and thebody is deceitful, and only the

(33:36):
spirit, you know. I mean, it'sso embedded into how we think of
ourselves. I mean, even me, assomeone who is feels like, you
know, I'm actively andintentionally trying to
decolonize and actively tryingto resist from these ideologies.
I constantly find myself havingto fight against a dualistic way
of thinking, not just you know,when it comes to others, really,

(33:56):
but just in myself, you know,and how I view my body and how
I, you know, and how I eventhink about again, my children,
you know, and just Oh, bad andgood and right and wrong and and
so much of life is not livedthat way. And so I think it's,
it's so such a cognitivedissonance that we all suffer
from when we are so steeped indualistic thinking all the time,

(34:21):
and yet our lives are so nondualistic. And so I feel like
we're constantly trying to fightagainst what is real and what I
mean. We experience grief andjoy at the same time, and yet we
can't understand that. And so wepush one away, or we feel guilty
for you know, and I think it's aconstant battle that we are

(34:41):
fighting within ourselves. Andso I think to resist dualism,
right? In order to not see theother as an other, I think it
starts with ourselves, right? Itstarts with our own bodies to
see our you know. It starts withour own minds. It starts with
how we fight. Function in ourown, you know, day to day
living. Because, man, that isone that I think is really, is

(35:05):
really tough, you know, andbecause it has such really
harmful repercussions throughouthistory, right? It mean, it
really, it affects uspersonally, and then it that
reverberates, you know, becausehow we treat our own bodies, how
we treat our own selves, is howwe're going to treat and and you
know how it's going to reflectto others. And so I think that

(35:28):
one you know, to answer yourquestion, how do we resist? I
think it's a very, very personaljourney of undoing dualism and
really becoming comfortable witha paradox of of what it means to
be human, of what it means tosit here and experience, you
know, deep joy and love andbeauty in my life, and also know

(35:51):
that the world is full of suchdeep, deep pain and not trying
to ignore or erase one for thesake of the other. I think we
need to hold that. I think weneed to hold the pain and the
grief of the world and also justthe beauty of our own lives,
right? I, I, you know, I put mychildren to bed, and I am

(36:11):
overwhelmed with love for mychildren, and at the same time,
I'm thinking about the childrenin Gaza who are dying from
starvation. And I that's notsomething I can settle within
me. And I don't think thatshould be settled. I think that
that should just be a tensionthat we live in and not ignore
one for the other, or think oneshould be, you know. And, yeah,

(36:32):
so I think it starts there.

Joshua Johnson (36:36):
I think we want to start there. You talk through
a lot of things that we want toembrace as we're resisting
empire, where we're braceembracing things like kinship,
connection, wholeness, rest,peace. The question is
practically now that we see thethe tentacles of empire have
been embedded everywhere, andit's really difficult to get

(37:00):
away from that to be humanagain. How then should we live?
What does it look like toactually live in a different
way, a way that actually thetentacles are not wrapped around
us anymore, pushing us to themargin, to the edge of society,
but actually we're rooted, we'regrounded, we're human with one

(37:23):
another. What does that looklike?

Kat Armas (37:25):
Yeah, well, I think it's taking, you know, as I
mentioned earlier, taking a bitof all of this, and starting
where you can and where you areand what makes sense to you, and
as you unravel, as you moveforward in this notion of

(37:46):
decolonizing, it's gonna, it'sgonna, it's gonna start to make
more sense for you, right? Andso for me, you know? And again,
this journey is extremelypersonal, right? I don't think
that any two people can be onthe same journey, because we
have, obviously, we live indifferent places. We have
different places. We havedifferent lives, you know, we
have different jobs, wewhatever. But I think for me,
you know, even when, even, Imean going back to writing

(38:08):
Abuelita faith, I mean that wasa big journey in that, for me,
was embracing, you know, what isit that faith, that, you know,
the pastors, and the pulpits andwhatever have told me is genuine
faith, and have told me is truewisdom, and where have I

(38:29):
experienced the divine outsideof that right? What is my truth
in that? And that for me,started with, you know, the
faith of abuela, the faith of mygrandmother, and digging into
the wisdom of my ancestors, thewisdom that formed me and that
formed God in me, right? Whatdoes that wisdom look like? And
then from there, you know, I wason my own personal journey,

(38:52):
right, of rediscovering thatwisdom. And then for me, it was
rediscovering my relationship tothe land, right? You know, my
family, we decided to move outof the city and move into, you
know, out into the middle of thewoods. And so that was our
personal, you know, journey andwe're working on, you know, we
have a relationship to the landand a relationship to the
animals. We have a small farm.
And, you know, there again,there's so many different ways.

(39:13):
But I think, you know, what doesit look like to nurture
something, to love somethingthat is unloved, whether that be
an actual, physical thing thatyou can nurture, or what does it
mean to build relationship withsomeone whom you can receive
wisdom and love? And you knowalso, you know, because
something I talk a lot about,too, and I've talked about this
in aulita Faith, is that in somuch a Christian, you know,

(39:36):
relationship, those of us withprivilege often feel like we
need to be the ones you know inthe position of host, right? Or
we need to be the ones that arehospitable or giving or but what
does it look like to receivelove from those deemed other? Or
what does it look like toreceive, yeah, these sorts of
things from people that thatwe've been told that we can we

(39:58):
have. Nothing to receive from,right? And so I think it looks
like, there's so many ways thatit can look like for us, I know
for me, I when I was living, youknow, back in the city, I had a
relationship with this womannamed Jesse, and I write about
her and in sacred belonging. Butyou know, she was a black woman
that lived in the neighborhoodfor as long as, you know, as she
could. And you know, for us, forme, so much of these life, so

(40:21):
much of my life givingrelationships that I experienced
was sitting with Jesse, drinkingDiet Cokes, you know, talking
about what, you know, what thecity, what it looked like, you
know, when she was a kid, andwhat, what life looked like,
2030, 4050, years ago, right?
And that, you know, that givesme a bit of knowledge of my own

(40:44):
history, of the land I sit on,of the ground that I walk on,
you know what I mean? I meanthat for me, felt like such a
rooted, grounded thing is toreally, she was like the
Abuelita theologian in myneighborhood, you know. And that
was a, really, for me, felt likea way to resist against, you
know, just all the noise, allthe noise was to sit and have a
Diet Coke with Jesse and learnabout, you know, what, what this

(41:08):
land was like, you know, 3040,years ago. But you know, it goes
beyond that. I think, as Imentioned earlier, you know,
what is our, our relationshipwith productivity, with time?
Are we living by the seasons,right? Are we, you know,
understanding the way that theworld is resting and dying and
re and coming back to life, andare we allowing seasons of birth

(41:31):
and death and and, you know,rebirth in our own lives? How do
we function in relationships?
You know, in in our whether it'slike our church jobs or whatever
kind of work. I mean, how arethere? Are there relationships
of hierarchy? Are we, you know,fostering true kinship and that
all there is true equality andthat we are learning from those

(41:53):
deemed you know less than youknow? A small one for me is, you
know, I have a toddler, and mytoddler takes forever to get out
of the house, takes forever toput on her shoes, takes forever,
you know. And am I instillingthis sort of Empire's constant,
you know, need for urgency andfor rush and for hustle in her

(42:13):
by telling her to constantlyhurry? Or am I making sure that
I'm setting up my life in such away that I'm not passing that
on. I'm not passing on this needfor constant urgency and hustle
and productivity. Am I lettingher just be? Am I, you know,
providing space in my day tojust think and to just be? Yeah,

(42:34):
I mean, I think there's just somany different ways that we can
do this, that we can be incommunity one another, that is
not relationships, of you know,where it's not based on just
simple charity, but based onreceiving wisdom from others and
belonging. I think belonging isa big one, and that's sort of

(42:54):
the whole the crux of this bookis because we all want to
belong, right? I mean, I thinkthat's the reason why we all go
to church. I think that's thereason why we all seek out
religion. I think that's thereason why we all, I mean, one
of the reasons I, you know, I dobelieve that there's a spiritual
component to that, but, youknow, I think that belonging is
the foundation to so much of thehuman experience. But belonging
with an empire is alwaysconditional. You Belong, so long

(43:17):
as you you know X, Y and Z, oryou belong if X, Y and Z, and I
think that that's what we see inthe church, right? You belong if
you do these things or say thisprayer or believe this exact you
know theology. But what would itlook like to belong to a
community or belong to a peoplethat you belonged with no ifs or

(43:38):
buts or conditions. And if youdon't find that in the church, I
think that you know, you you canlook for that elsewhere. I think
that that's you know, where wecan we can seek true belonging.
Is that if the church is ifwhere you're at right now is not
you're not finding that, then gosomewhere else and start
developing true belonging there.

(44:01):
And you bring Jesus in there,when you do that, you know what
I mean, like God, God goes withyou there. You know, I think I
have, I have a friend who, youknow, left the church because it
was such. You know, she wasexperienced so much harm. And,
you know, she joined a rockclimbing community, and, you
know, and she just has foundbeautiful, true belonging in
this community, and isexperiencing the love and the

(44:22):
grace of Jesus in thiscommunity. And I think that, you
know, for so many Christians,we're so riddled with guilt, and
we're so riddled with how weshould be and how we should act
and what we should be doing. Youknow that we stay in these
places that are toxic andharmful, and all we're doing is
just, you know, redoing thecycle of harm that empire, you

(44:43):
know, wants us to or hasconstructed, you know,

Joshua Johnson (44:46):
now all of those are so good, and I think we
actually have to have a newvision of what life needs to be
these days, especially whenwe're talking about, like the
productivity nature of societyof West. Western civilization as
we're continually moving, like,progressing forward,
multiplying, growing, we alwayshave to have, like, growth of

(45:09):
money, right? Or, you know,Western civilization doesn't
really work. And so if we'recaught up in that exactly, it's,
I mean, I think this is why wehave a loneliness epidemic. This
is why, you know, people don'tknow how to connect anymore.
This is why they're, you know,there is no belonging in a

(45:29):
certain thing, because we arecogs in a big machine that is
leading us somewhere that is notlike life. It's not humanity,
it's like machine, yes.

Kat Armas (45:41):
I mean, yeah. And I write about in the book, I mean,
if you go back to the history ofwage labor, and I mean literally
leisure, like, just fun, wasactually constructed by, you
know, the Overlords ofcapitalism, who constructed
leisure and then put a price tagon it. They said, Okay, this is
when you're going to work. Thisis when you're going to be off.

(46:02):
And then when you're off, we'regoing to charge you to take a,
you know, for a train ticket togo to a baseball game, you know.
And it's we've constructed thislife really, around being cogs
in a machine and, and I'm nothere to say, like, jump, you
know, yes, jump off. But also Iknow that that's, you know,
virtually impossible in thissociety we live in because of
the systems we live in. But Iwonder, how can we begin to

(46:24):
imagine something different? AndI say that, you know, I wish I
can give, you know, do this, x,y and z, but it's like I said,
it's so personal, right? And sowhat? What are things that you
can do in your life? You know,as I write about in the book,
you know before, before thiswhole wage labor and the the
where people had to work infactories and all that, and you

(46:46):
know, you had to work nine tofive before that. I mean, people
rested and ate and did all thesethings as the season and as
life, you know, sort of led theminto. You're tired, you sleep,
you know, you you stop and yourest. But now we don't know what
that is. You're tired, you keepgoing. You're sick, you keep
working, you know? And so I justwonder, you know, what? What

(47:09):
incremental changes can you makein your life, to seek out this
other, to imagine a new way ofbeing, and to seek that out, I
mean that can literally meangoing for a walk instead of
sitting at your computer. Imean, it really can look like
anything, but I think it justrequires you to get imaginative

(47:30):
and just look at your life, yourday to day, from the moment you
wake up to the moment you go tobed, and take inventory of all
the things that is keeping youcaptive, whether it's to
productivity or to or to any ofthese ideologies. And how can
you just begin to untangle andunravel, you know, for me, I
just, I wake up, I wake my kidsup an hour earlier so that they

(47:53):
can take an hour longer to take,you know, to put their shoes on.
And I'm not rushing, right? Imean, we still, and we still end
up rushing sometimes, fine, youknow, there's grace there. But,
you know, I really, I mean,like, what little changes can
you make so that your life canstart to look less like a cog in
a machine and more like someoneliving in wholeness and someone

(48:14):
flourishing and connected totrue belonging? You know? I know
people might hear me say, like,leave the church if you're you
know. And that may be like, youknow, make them feel a little
bit uncomfortable. But I justmean that so much of the church,
too has become that, you know,Empire and imperialism. When I
talk about the energy behindexpansion, I mean, you see that
so much in the church, right?
It's just this energy ofplanting another one, of

(48:38):
expanding to new territory ofjust, you know, try and push our
ideology to new people and morepeople, and save them so that
they can become like us and andso when I say, you know, find
another space, I just mean,like, where is there? Where can
you know, where is there nottrue belonging, if you're not
experiencing that truebelonging, if there is a push to

(48:59):
be like Empire, to wear you downlike a cog in a machine. And
that is, I don't believe that'sfrom God. I don't care what
church it is. I don't believethat that, you know it doesn't
I'm not saying that the path,whatever. I'm just saying that
that space that you'reinhabiting, something needs to
change, and maybe that startswith you, fine. Maybe that
doesn't mean leaving. Maybe thatjust means doing what it is that

(49:20):
you need to do and change. Andchanging, you know, but I think
that so much of Empire'sideologies has so corrupted us
and our churches that I think inorder to find true liberation,
it means, you know, takingchances and being, you know,
just doing things that I thinkmight ruffle some feathers, and
it might just really, justchange our lives quite a bit,

(49:40):
and it could start reallyincremental, but, yeah,

Joshua Johnson (49:46):
that's so good, Kat, that's so good. I think
that's gonna be liberating andhelpful for a lot of people to
actually be able to findbelonging where they are and
where they're at. As we endhere. Can you give me a couple
recommendations and. Anythingyou've been reading or watching
lately you could recommend.

Kat Armas (50:03):
Okay, yeah, so let's see. I I've been literally only
reading fiction this year. Ihave not read one theology book
all year. After I turned in mymy manuscript, I was like, and
we're done reading theology.
It's been wonderful. Yeah, I'veread a lot of great fiction
novels this year. My favorite isElizabeth strouts, tell me
everything, and thecorrespondent by Virginia Evans.

(50:23):
Those are just two non religiousat all. But if anyone is
interested. And then one show,I'm a big show person. I love TV
shows, and I don't know if any,if you've seen or if anyone seen
it's, I don't think it's very,very popular, but it's called
resident alien. And it's, yeah,I've seen it, you've seen it,
okay? So I feel like it toucheson so many themes of
colonization and so many themesof what does it mean to be human

(50:47):
and identity. And I alwaysrecommend the show when I'm
talking about theology andEmpire, because it's such a
funny and quirky and weird anddeep show that really, you know,
I think if you allow, if youallow your imagination, to go
there, I think it could reallytake you into a lot of these
different places, and have youwrestling with a lot of really

(51:08):
good things when it comes to,what does it mean to be human,
and what does it mean? And,yeah, what does it mean to be to
arrive somewhere as a colonizerand be transformed, instead of
doing the the trying totransform?

Joshua Johnson (51:20):
But yeah. Well, liturgies for resisting Empire
is out November, early November,anywhere books are sold, Is
there anywhere you'd like topoint people to to connect with
you to get the book? Yeah?

Kat Armas (51:33):
Well, you can, I mean, if you want to send me a
message on my website, catarmas.com Also my sub stack is
just cat armas at substack orsubstack.com I don't know how
that that is, but yeah, you canfind me on substack on social
media, cat, underscore, Armus,and you can order my book right
now. For if you're listening tothis before it's out, it is 40%

(51:55):
off and free shipping at Baker,bookhouse.com so I think that is
a good deal if you want to go

Joshua Johnson (51:59):
there. Great.
Well, Kat, thank you for thisconversation. Thank you for
taking us through empire. Whatit is, what it looks like, what
you're trying to say within thisbook. As we're resisting empire,
we're embracing all these otherthings that don't look like the
tentacles of empire that havewrapped around us and have got
all their tentacles in us. Sothank you for this. It was

(52:20):
fantastic. I really lovedwalking through it with you, and
you are a gift to the world. Andso thank you for your work and
what you do. It's fantastic.

Kat Armas (52:31):
Thank you so much, and it was wonderful chatting

Unknown (52:42):
with you.