In this episode, I talk with Dr. Chris Hoklotubbe and Dr. Danny Zacharias about their book Reading the Bible on Turtle Island and how Indigenous wisdom invites us to see Scripture through a different lens. We explore how the Bible, written by tribal people deeply connected to land and kinship, calls us back into right relationship with Creator, creation, and one another. Chris and Danny share stories that connect the Trail of Tears to the exile in Babylon, the teachings of Jesus to the call of Jubilee, and how truth-telling and reconciliation are part of our ongoing discipleship. This conversation challenges the transactional faith that has shaped so much of Western Christianity and reclaims a relational vision of faith grounded in love, harmony, and gratitude. It’s a reminder that reading the Bible through Indigenous eyes doesn’t just reveal something new about the text, it helps us remember who we are and how to walk the bright path of Jesus together.
H. Daniel Zacharias (PhD, Highland Theological College/Aberdeen) is a Cree-Anishinaabe/Métis and Austrian man originally from Winnipeg, Manitoba (Treaty One territory), with ancestors also residing in Treaty Two, Treaty Three, and Treaty Five territories. He lives in Mi’kma’ki (Nova Scotia) with his wife, Maria, and four children in Wolfville, NS. He is associate dean and professor of New Testament studies at Acadia Divinity College, where he has worked since 2007. He also serves as an adjunct faculty for NAIITS: An Indigenous Learning Community.
T. Christopher Hoklotubbe (ThD, Harvard) is a proud member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. He is the director of graduate studies of NAIITS: An Indigenous Learning Community, the first accredited Indigenous designed, developed, delivered, and governed theological institute. He is also assistant professor of classics at Cornell College (Mount Vernon, Iowa). He is the author of Civilized Piety: The Rhetoric of Pietas in the Pastoral Epistles and the Roman Empire, which was awarded the Manfred Lautenschläger Award for Theological Promise. He and his wife, Stephanie, have two daughters and live near Cedar Rapids, Iowa.
Chris & Danny's Book:
Reading the Bible on Turtle Island
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Hoklotubbe (00:00):
Our way forward of having life at its
best together is by tellingthese stories of the goodness
and the joy and the beautythat's out there, not just for
indigenous flourishing, but forall our flourishing.
Unknown (00:22):
You Hello
Joshua Johnson (00:26):
and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in
which we have conversationsabout the culture we create and
the impact we can make. We longto see the body of Christ look
like Jesus. I'm your host.
Joshua Johnson, faith has oftenbeen used to erase culture, to
separate people from the land,from their ancestors and even
their own sense of belonging.
But Chris Hawk to be and DannyZacharias invite us to a
(00:47):
different vision. In their book,reading the Bible on Turtle
Island, they open a circle wherestory, land and Scripture meet,
showing how the Bible itself isan indigenous text rooted in
land, community and covenant.
Chris and Danny draw from deepwells of indigenous wisdom,
revealing a way of reading theBible that is not about
dominance or extraction, butabout relationship, reciprocity
(01:09):
and then restoration. Theyremind us that creation itself
is alive with God's presence,that the Earth, the animals and
the waters are not resources tobe used, but relatives to be
honored. They invite us to seehow the teachings of Jesus, from
Jubilee to the Sermon on theMount call us back into right
relationship with creator, withcreation and with one another.
(01:30):
So join us for a conversationthat explores what it means to
reclaim beauty and goodness inour traditions, to heal the
fracture between faith and theland and to move from a
transactional faith built onpower to a relational faith
built on love together, let'simagine what it might look like
to walk the bright path ofJesus, grounded, humble and
(01:51):
connected to all our relations.
Here's my conversation withChris Hawk the Tubi and Danny
Zacharias, Chris and Danny,welcome to shifting culture.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
Danny Zacharias (02:04):
Thanks very much for inviting us. Yeah, we
really appreciate being here.
Joshua Johnson (02:09):
You know, at the beginning of the book, you talk
about the circle dance, andyou're welcoming people to the
circle. Can you welcome us tothe circle? Can you just orient
us to what we're going to betalking about and invite us into
this circle dance,
Danny Zacharias (02:24):
yeah, well, I mean, I can invite you in by
first telling you who I am andwhat we're doing kind of thing.
So my name is Danny Zacharias,originally born in Winnipeg,
Manitoba, which is treaty oneterritory where my maternal
ancestors resided for yearsuntold, as well as other treated
areas in Canada. But I live nowin McMahon, which is the
(02:46):
ancestral and unceded territoryof the megamaw peoples. Now
that's Nova Scotia today in anhour outside of Halifax, where I
serve at Acadia divinity collegeas Associate Dean with my wife
and four kids here and I alsoserve as an adjunct professor
with Nate's indigenous learningcommunity. And so part of what
(03:07):
you hear in my introduction tomyself is my heritage, my
history, my theological history,and those things are kind of
coming together in this book anddiscussion with you today,
having grown up in kind ofchurch adjacent until I was in
my teens, but then embracingChristian faith in a family that
(03:27):
largely didn't talk about ourindigenous heritage because of
discrimination that my ancestorsreceived and later in life. Kind
of post all of my theologicaleducation, post my PhD, or,
sorry, maybe kind of mid PhD,where I started asking these
questions again. What does itmean for me to be an indigenous
(03:47):
follower of Jesus, and in thecase of this book, what does it
mean for me to think this way asa biblical, trained biblical
scholar? How do I bring thetools that I have and engage
this, this type of thinking,this type of worldview, these
lifeways that I've sought toreclaim as part of my cultural
(04:08):
heritage. So as we kind of enterthat circle, this is the context
of why this, this whole dancehas started in the first place.
Chris Hoklotubbe (04:15):
Halito chimachikma, my name is Chris
hocklow Tubby. I'm a member ofthe Chota nation, and I am a New
Testament scholar by training. Icurrently live with my wife and
two daughters outside of CedarRapids, Iowa and Lisbon, Iowa. I
teach three quarters time withCornell College, a small liberal
(04:35):
arts college here in Iowa, aswell as I am the Director of
Graduate Studies for Nate's andindigenous learning community.
And Nate's is proud to be thefirst indigenous design
developed, delivered andgoverned theological institution
to be accredited by theAssociation of theological
schools. And I say that becauseNate's was a real big part of my
(04:58):
entry point into. To thisproject. So in graduate school,
there was a large emphasis onhow our social location informs
the kinds of questions we bringto the text and the meanings we
bring from the text. And so, youknow, I really benefited from
reading African American, AsianAmerican, Latina, Latina
(05:21):
interpretations of the Bible,but there wasn't very much on
indigenous interpretations ofthe Bible. There were
scatterings of such, but nothingthat really focused on it in
particular. And if there waspieces on indigenous
Christianity, it was mostlytheology or explaining
(05:42):
indigenous theology to Christianaudiences and talking broadly
about it, but not deepengagement with biblical texts.
So at some point I just thought,well, if I'm not finding the
text out there, maybe God hasinvited me. Maybe the Holy
Spirit is leading me to writesomething on this. And yet I
didn't want to do this apartfrom community. And so that's
(06:03):
what led me into Nate's, andalso led me to meet Danny. And
as soon as I met Danny and weshared our hearts of what our
passions were, we said, whywould we write this apart, like,
why don't we write this togetherand make a project so much
richer by including stories fromCanada and the United States,
which oftentimes ourimaginations of indigenous
(06:25):
experiences are just separated,but there's a lot of
commonalities and a lot ofrichness by bringing these
stories together, thus theproject for doing a book on
indigenous interpretations ofTurtle Island
Joshua Johnson (06:37):
take me into then that social place and that
the place that you're startingto engage the text from, and
contrast that with a with a morenormative thinking for most
people that already live inNorth America that are not
(06:58):
indigenous way of of engagingscripture. What was the
difference because of yoursocial location, than a white,
European settler, North Americaninterpretation of Scripture?
Chris Hoklotubbe (07:15):
So I would start that indigenous people
have been reading the Bible andmaking meaning from it, from
their social locations, from thevery beginning of missionary
contact. And a lot of thesestories have been missed or
underappreciated. And even tothis day, when we were talking
to indigenous ministers andleaders about how their cultures
(07:38):
inform how they read the Bible,oftentimes they would say, Well,
you know, it really does. I justread the Bible as is, right?
Danny, actually, this is yourstory, right? You You spoke with
someone who said, Well, I don'tread the Bible any distinct way.
But then they started talkingabout their dreams and how their
dreams inform how they makemeaning of the Bible. And you're
(07:59):
like, oh, but that's anindigenous interpretation. And,
you know, I was talking to thiscrow pastor, Kenny pretty on top
Jr. And again, he was like, Ijust read the Bible straight
forward. We just preachstraightforward. But then I did
this sermon where I was talkingabout the imagery of Jesus
adopting us, imagery that's verypowerful in Galatians as a
(08:21):
metaphor for how we are maderight with God, we participate
in Jesus, and he brought it tothis a crow ceremony. It's a
ceremony that's really big for alot of clains indigenous tribes,
which is the adoption ceremony.
And when they have their powwowsor gatherings, in one of these
moments, the music stops andthere's an announcement that's
made that says there's a lostchild in the audience. And then
(08:43):
when the dancers goes throughthe stadium and brings a family
down, and then there's thisbeautiful adoption ceremony in
front of everybody that a lostchild is brought back into this
family and is claimed as amember of the Crow Nation. And
he's talking about this like,this is what Jesus does for us.
Jesus is like this crow dancerwho goes in and finds the lost
sheep and brings them to thecenter, and there's this huge
(09:05):
celebration that the Lost isfound. And that just said,
shivers down my spine, and I waslike, this is beautiful and and
this is one of the points we aretrying to make in this book, is
that the Creator, that God hasbeen present with indigenous
people from the very beginning,that they were not left without
a witness to what a good,beautiful life looks like, that,
(09:26):
what harmony looks like, what abalanced, right relationship
with all our relationships looklike. And so if we start with
that premise, then ourceremonies, our stories, our
values, our cultures, have thefingerprint of creator on them
and are useful assets for ourtheological imagination that
help us to unpack and see thingsthat are underappreciated in the
(09:49):
text, that have always beenthere, that we don't see with
our 21st Century Western eyes,our Euro American trained eyes,
and in many ways. Indigenouspeople today are much more
similar in culture and contextto the Galileans and the ancient
Hebrews and in fact, thebiblical scholarship. When we
(10:09):
think about sociologicalinterpretations that we try to
do cultural interpretations,whether it's honor, shame or
kinship, well, New Testamentscholars are going to
ethnographers andanthropologists, but where are
they getting their models from?
They're getting their modelsfrom indigenous people. So in
(10:29):
ways, we're kind of reclaimingand naming what's always been
done is that indigenous peoplehave been contributing to
indigenous interpretation forfor a while, and we all benefit
from it.
Joshua Johnson (10:40):
One of the things that I think has helped
me in the past is actuallyviewing the Bible as an
indigenous text itself, like itwas written by indigenous people
through their hands, telling thestory of indigenous people and
the land for a long time, howdoes that interpretation of the
bible of viewing it asindigenous wisdom written for us
(11:04):
by indigenous people help us seethe Bible for what it is.
Danny Zacharias (11:08):
Yeah, no, that's really good. I mean, our,
one of our kind of predecessors,you know, who we've looked to,
even though I didn't get tomeet, was Richard twist, who
wrote some really good books.
And he would often, you know,just say, Jesus was an
indigenous man walking in thelands of his ancestors and and
he knew that history of hispeople. He knew the histories of
(11:30):
the lands that he occupied andhow they were, you know,
especially at his time,oppressed, you know, and and
colonized, and all of thesethings bear, you know, so much
connection to what how we aretoday. So, you know, I think
that is, that is really spot on,especially if we kind of expand
it out and understand, again,those sociological factors like
(11:53):
being tribal people. I mean, theIsraelites were tribal people,
they were collectivist in theirmentality. They shared these
things that tribal people theworld over still share today,
which is very different fromNorth American readers, which
are very individualist, right?
(12:15):
That's just the kind of themakeup of our society. It's a
society I grew up in. I wager toguess that all three of us would
have that connection toindividualistic culture. And you
know, if that's the water thatyou swim in, you don't default
to thinking like a communitariansociety, but that's what the
Hebraic culture was like. Thatwas the culture of Jesus, and it
(12:39):
is the culture that, again, manypeople do share across Turtle
Island and across the world, andso those are assets that, you
know, we can learn about, tryand embrace, especially those of
indigenous heritage like myself.
That's, you know, part of mycultural reclamation is
understanding and trying to liveinto those worldviews and those
life ways that see all things asrelated, that have a more
(13:02):
communitarian mindset. Becauseas kind of Chris intimated, as
you just intimated, this is verymuch aligned with the Hebraic
mindset from those who wrote ourscriptures.
Joshua Johnson (13:15):
You know, in your chapter, it's all relative.
You write about all of ourrelations. So how do you see
scripture affirming this web ofkinship among lands, people and
creatures?
Danny Zacharias (13:28):
Yeah, all my relations is language that's
shared across a number of FirstNations across Turtle Island. It
comes in different forms.
Sometimes it's kind of embeddedinto some of their just
teachings and ceremonies. Sopart of, for instance, Cree
natural law, which is part of myheritage, it's kind of embedded
(13:48):
in some of the natural laws ofpre law, where and then
sometimes it manifests in actualsayings, right? So the Metis
often end their prayers with allmy relations. You know, it's
this reminder ofinterconnectedness, kinship,
same with the Lakota. I'mblanking on the exact phrase in
(14:11):
Lakota, although I knew it atone time, getting old,
forgetting things. But there isthis, this kind of undergirding.
Part of the indigenous worldviewis interconnectedness with all
things, and it's certainly primeand kind of foundational for
indigenous worldviews. And itmanifests in sayings. It
(14:31):
manifests in ceremony, as wekind of go into the scriptures
then, and as I, as I lookespecially at the Hebrew Bible,
but into the New Testament aswell. I just see so much
resonance with that the OldTestament, you know, I think
about, I think about OldTestament scholars who have
focused on land and said, like,land is so central to the Old
(14:51):
Testament, covenant, therelationship with the land, the
relationship with creator. It'slike this triangle, right? It's.
It's the human community, it'sit's God Self, and it's the land
that you occupy. This is thepicture that we have in the
garden, right? So Adam and Eveare placed in a in a garden to
to care for it, and that thelanguage, or the translation
(15:15):
I've I've advocated for, is toserve and conform to it, meaning
that you need to embrace therhythms of the land around you,
and you're called to serve itthese this is the wording that's
used. So you see in our creationstory how it sets us up for this
kind of triangulation ofrelationship with a particular
(15:35):
land. And then through thecreation story as well. We see
how we are one amongst manycreated things in which we're in
interrelationship. So the plantsfeed us, it feeds they feed the
birds. They feed the landcreatures. And that is the way
creator has designed it to be.
(15:58):
You know, we are in thisessential relationship. And so
when we don't recognize this andthen live in a right way, given
that that's the design, thenthen destruction is inevitable,
right? If we're not living increator's designed way. And so
the way the indigenous worldviewworks and reinforces it is to
(16:21):
always be reminding ourselvesthat these things are our
relatives, as relatives, theydeserve respect, and that
respect manifests in differentways, but is especially centered
on the idea of our of the Earthas mother, the land is always
taking care of us, and that'sthe way that God has designed it
(16:41):
right from Genesis one. And sothe language of relative is, is
how it manifests in theindigenous ways of thinking and
being. And I certainly see asyou, as you mentioned in the
chapter on it's all relativethread lines through our
scriptures that help us to thinkin the same ways, and it's
(17:02):
really our hope that we can,along with many other
theological voices, counter theidea that land is a commodity
that we are meant to rule overit in in a domineering way,
rather than seeing ourselves asa Part of it.
Joshua Johnson (17:20):
Right now, in the world that we live in today,
we're morphing into closer tosomething called like a
monoculture. We Westerncivilization and progress, and
this need for more and moreexpansion and growth feels like
the world over is starting tomorph into one conglomerate of a
(17:43):
culture. Why is it important forus to reclaim some culture, to
be able to see some things thatwe may be missing now, and why
is it really important thatwe're seeing the Bible, even
reclaiming some indigenousculture that's been here in this
land for a long time.
Danny Zacharias (18:03):
It made me think immediately of the
portrait in Revelation withpeople from many tribes, tongues
and nations, that that diversityof culture and peoples has
always been God's plan from thebeginning, and as we have this
vision of the heavenly throne inRevelation, we see that it is
(18:25):
also the culmination ofcreator's goal, and so it's
something that we need tocelebrate, and a vision is meant
for us to live into. So, youknow, I agree with your
diagnosis, you know, with thekind of collapsing of, or maybe
that's not the right word, but,you know, this the expansion of
(18:46):
the internet and all in socialmedia, which has made everything
feel really close. You know,the, what used to be six degrees
of separation is now two, thatkind of thing. I mean, it has
collapsed those things and, andit's a detriment to, you know,
the diversity that God embracesand loves, but there is always a
hegemonic drift, especially whenyou were in places that are, you
(19:11):
know, superpowers in the world.
So that's kind of one part Iwanted to say. And in terms of
diagnosis, any further diagnosisChris is, is, I could see in his
face, he's pondering and readyto speak his mouth.
Chris Hoklotubbe (19:22):
You know, the story that came to my mind was
someone we talked to, and I'llleave her name anonymous, but
she said, growing up, she justhad this sense of, I'm a dirty
Indian, like there's just thisdeep sadness and around the idea
that there's really nothingbeautiful or good within my
(19:45):
tradition that contributeseither to the dominant culture
or to even our theologicalimagination. And so much of our
project is to celebrate, tocelebrate and identify the
assets of indigenous culturethat it has a. Lot of beauty, a
lot to give, not only for us,but we think, offers some good
(20:07):
medicine to some of the excessesand directions that this world
is taking. And as you thinkabout monocultures, one of our
invitations in this book, Ithink, is to is back to the
particular right? So again, wedon't want to say that there,
that we're trying to do a panindigenous, all indigenous work.
Here we are just beginning aconversation, and we want to
(20:27):
encourage more conversationsthat get even more local. And in
a world that is becoming moreand more monoculture, that is
experiencing that through brandsand through internet, there's
this real invitation to get toknow the land that you're on.
Learn about the ancestralstewards of this land, learn
(20:47):
about the watershed that affectsyour ecosystem. Have some kind
of tangible relationship withyour garden outside and with the
people around you, becausethat's going to be, you know,
the things that you're inrelationship with, and that's in
your particular location, is,are particular location is are
going to be the most meaningfullife impacting relationships you
have, versus the quick hits ofendorphins that we get from our
(21:10):
participation on the internet.
Joshua Johnson (21:12):
I grew up in Puyallup, Washington, which is
indigenous name for a people,meaning the land of generous
people. And so it was for me tobe able to know like, Oh, it is
the land of generous people.
This valley is fertile. It'sgenerous. There's this land. It
actually helps me get a broaderview of where I come from, who I
(21:36):
am, even though I'm notindigenous myself through birth
and heritage, but to be able tobe on that land, we are
connected, and I think that'simportant for me growing up
there. But one thing I like isthat I know that it was it's an
indigenous name. How can westart to reclaim some of that
(21:59):
for people who don't really haveeyes to see what actually is
there. You know, you're talkingabout reclaiming what has been
there all along. Chris like, howdo we start to see and uncover
what has been there?
Chris Hoklotubbe (22:15):
You know, I am of the persuasion that we don't
win people over througharguments. We win them through
relationships and stories. Andthat's one of the things that
we've tried to do in this book,is to tell a lot of stories of
beauty and joy and goodness thatis happening in Indian Country,
that's happening in ourcommunities, to kind of give a
(22:39):
taste and see approach thatthere is some goodness here.
Once you see that goodness andexperiencing that goodness, you
might kind of look for it. Youknow, one of the things we talk
about bringing it back to theland, is this idea of how being
in a relationship with land canhave this really life giving
effect upon us, even just bysaying thank you to the land.
(23:00):
For many indigenous people,there are ceremonies where we
give tobacco to the land, orwhen we do honorable harvests,
or the first fish ceremony,which is to say, thank you to
the salmon for the food thatfeeds us. And this comes to
recognizing plants and animalsas persons, rather than objects
(23:23):
or beings. But when you evenjust take in this perspective
that animals and plants arepersons, or at least could be
persons, let's just start there.
That changes our emotionalresponse and attitude and even
our sense, and ultimately, oursense of responsibilities and
duties to the things around thisrather than to think of them as
objects, as its as disposableand extractable resources that
(23:45):
expand our power and our wealth,to change it, to change that,
even that little perspective,that that tree is a person, that
animal is a person. I just walkaround my days with just a bit
more gratitude. Like, wow. Like,look at this beauty. Look at
everything that around that'saround me that sustains my life,
that allows me to live when Ieat meat, that's a life that has
(24:08):
died, that's been given, thatthat sustained my life. And we,
when you look at worldreligions, one of the most
common spiritual attitudes thatthe wisest sages are trying to
get us toward is this area ofgratitude and appreciation and
this constant practice of sayingthank you. And so me, it's your
(24:29):
prayer, right? Is to say thankyou to God, and how it changes
our inner disposition. And so wecan even move toward that boy
that that's a life changingmove.
Joshua Johnson (24:40):
Let's get into some biblical interpretation. So
let's go into naboth'sdescendants. And how does
reading the story like that? Sotell us what the story is in
Exodus, and then move into whatdoes it look like to read that
from an indigenous perspectivein North America? Naboth.
Danny Zacharias (24:59):
You know, this is a. Little known character, in
some sense, like it's a smallstory, but it is, and has been
significant for indigenouspeoples, because it's almost
like a story in miniature ofexactly what's happened on
Turtle Island. So Naboth is anIsraelite who has a land that
(25:21):
has been passed on to him. It'shis family land, and he
recognizes the responsibility tosteward it. And along comes the
king Ahab who has really nodevotion to the covenant, nor
any sort of kind of honorablekingship, along with his darling
(25:45):
wife, the Queen Jezebel and andbasically they, they conspire to
get naboth's vineyard by killinghim so that so that the king can
have the land. And obviously, Ihad read that story before, but
it really came kind of to thefore to me again, just with a
little little quote, as I wasreading about a missionary on
(26:10):
the west coast of Canada. Hislast name was claw, C, l, a, H,
and as he was contending withthe government over their lands,
his his people's lands, andessentially being told that you
need to get off of it and notcome back. He made, you know,
(26:32):
this reference to this story,and he said, I've read the story
of Naboth, and I know that Godwas not happy when Ahab took his
land, and you know that thattheological reflection from an
indigenous social location inthe midst of land being taken
(26:52):
away by a government that is nottreating with you at all like
there was no treaty processthere. It was just a don't come
back type of thing by aChristian indigenous missionary,
right who who was devoted toChrist, who saw the value of the
gospel and and the healing thatit brought to his people. And so
(27:14):
he was a missionary, and yetbeing willing to speak truth to
power in that way. I justthought was really powerful. And
in our chapter, obviously, wetalk about this and and, you
know, indigenous readers, whenwe read a story like that, you
know, we see ourselves kind ofsymbolically, like we are
(27:35):
descendants of this very personwho has undergone the same type
of thing where people with morepower came along and did what
they wanted with our lands thatwe belonged to, instead of being
good neighbors and choosing tobecause indigenous people have
(27:56):
always been willing to share theland well, to be good neighbors
with them. It's an overlappingkind of sovereignty, because
they always believe that theland was the one that took care
of us all, and then the gifts ofthe land were for the sustenance
of all the animals and the humanbeings and the birds and
everything else. And so we notonly start that chapter with
(28:20):
this story. But we go on to thensay, what are the other things
that happened because of landtheft and colonization? And we
talk about moving to talk about,for instance, the trail of
broken treaties is our subtitle,because there are numerous
treaties across Turtle Island. Idon't know the exact number.
(28:42):
It's a lot. There's more in theStates than there is in Canada,
because there is First Nationsin the States. But those
treaties were almost neverhonored, and that should be a
huge issue for Christians whenwe believe that we are people of
covenant, that God hascovenanted with us, and we ought
to be good covenant partnersback and so for us to to bear
(29:07):
this heritage as as countriesboth can in the US of not
honoring treaties that were madeshould be deeply troubling to
Christians today, and it shouldcause us to think about what are
ways that we ought to be livingin a good way given this
fractured history.
Joshua Johnson (29:25):
So how does the role of truth telling something
like that? I'm a Nabothdescendant. I actually see
myself in the story. This isactually what is happening here
and now, and you are breakingtreaties. You're telling Get off
my hands, like this is notright. How does the role of like
(29:47):
justice and truth telling in aplace where some people may not
necessarily right away, see theinjustice of it, but having a
different perspective actuallyshows us that there is a place
of injustice. Is, what role doesthat take place as we're reading
scripture?
Chris Hoklotubbe (30:05):
You know, one of the things I teach my
students when we talk aboutpreaching is that good preaching
is always in conversation withdaily events or the things that
are impacting a community. Andthis is why it's important to
have models for preaching thattend to our social location,
because people bring indifferent stories and different
concerns. And so, for example,my tribe, the Chalta, you know,
(30:27):
one of the stories we carry withus is the Trail of Tears and the
Treaty of dancing Rabbit Creek,which occurred much more like an
episode of sopranos withintimidation and trickery versus
a kind of a, you know, a dealwhere best interests are made
and a good faith effort is madeto find a win win situation. And
(30:49):
so if these are the stories wecarry, then when we're making
connections to stories in theBible, and seeing ourselves in
the Bible, it's going to look alittle bit different than people
who don't have those stories,and so when preaching the Bible,
or thinking about these storiesof the Bible, there become
really great opportunities. Aswe're telling the story of
(31:10):
either the exile of Jewishpeople from Jerusalem into
Babylon, these becomespringboards launching off pads
to tell other stories that mightbe under appreciated or unknown
by wider audiences. For example,one of the things that I really
appreciated in my time inOklahoma, talking to Chadha and
(31:31):
Cherokee people about where theysee their indigenous and their
Christian identities come toblossom and flourish, is I would
hear oftentimes about theimportance of the Chota and
Cherokee hymns, and him singing.
And for many Chota and Cherokeethose hymns were sung, and even
many written along the trail oftears. And when you think about
that, and you think about Psalm137 by the rivers of Babylon and
(31:56):
and actually, what's reallyinteresting about that we don't
actually have a lot of firsthand have a lot of first hand
accounts from the Jewishscripture about what that trail
was like to go from Jerusalem toBabylon. Everything is
referenced around it, thatexperience and that emotion is
not there. Well, it getscaptured in song. And when you
juxtapose Chota Cherokee songswith that were written song
(32:21):
along the trail with Psalm 130says 37 you get this like, deep
appreciation for how songs carryus through hard times and also,
and we talk about this more inthe book. I won't get into it
here. But when Cherokee seeingmany of the songs, like only a
drop of blood or Amazing Grace,they tell stories about the
(32:43):
Trail of Tears and the hardshipsthey faced, about how their
women were assaulted or theirbabies were murdered along the
trail. And these oral traditionscarry along with the songs and
the songs that follow after.
These stories become thesemoments of remembrance and
lament, but also kind ofresistance. We hear about the
(33:05):
idea, the idea of a dangerousmemory, that by continuing to
remember and tell these stories,these are acts of resistance.
These are acts of maintainingour identity until in the
stories, until, you know,justice is fully accounted for,
maybe not on this side of theworld, but in heaven, and
imagine, you know, is this howthe Psalms and songs functioned
(33:28):
for ancient Jewish people goinginto Babylon and in Babylon,
what stories did they tellalongside of the songs as they
sang and lamented on the riversof Babylon?
Danny Zacharias (33:40):
If I can add one more thing to something else
we need to think about as screwas readers of Scripture, is be
aware of what character you maybe thinking about yourself as,
because we don't like to benecessarily confronted. You
know, we're happy to think ofourselves as that one sheep that
(34:02):
gets saved, you know, by theshepherd who left the 99 but are
you? Are you brave enough tomaybe say, maybe I'm occupying,
occupying the place of KingAhab? You know it here. I'm not
made off. I'm a in light of thatWho do I need to be now that I
(34:22):
know this?
Joshua Johnson (34:23):
Yeah, what an incredible point, and so helpful
for us, a lot of us in theUnited States who are in the
empire, living in the empire,and complicit in Empire at
which, you know, the Bible waswritten through a people that
the Empire had their foot on thenecks of those people. And so
now you know, if I'm part of theempire, how am I going to
(34:46):
actually see myself in the storyof Scripture and where, what do
I need to do? And that hasreframed a lot of of my thinking
and seeing scripture, and it'sbeen very, very helpful. So
great point. But you also talkedto. Recently about Babylon, and
that's, you know, the trail toBabylon, the exile. So talking
about old, older stories,dangerous memory, Trail of
(35:09):
Tears, you talk about boardingschools as well. How does this
story of exile in Babylonactually help us deal with
cultural trauma and then bringabout reconciliation? And
restitution that needs tohappen, because we again, are in
a culture that is forwardthinking, always about progress.
(35:32):
We're like that was the past. Wedon't have to think about it
anymore. How does this help usbecome better creatures of God?
Chris Hoklotubbe (35:40):
The pathway to healing comes through truth
telling. Maybe this is what youwere inviting us to get to
beforehand, is that right now,in Canada, the United States, we
don't even know full extent ofthe stories of what occurred in
boarding schools. Canada is muchfarther along. And Danny could
speak about the amazing workthat has happened up there with
(36:04):
the Truth and ReconciliationCommission that we've only tried
to recently under the work ofDeb Holland to approach by
gathering stories of boardingschool survivors who had really
traumatic experiences In thesestructured environments that
then did not really set them upfor success. For many of them,
(36:25):
in the early especially in theearly times of the boarding
schools were really detrimentalto their thriving. When we look
at the story of Babylon, right,there are some resonances in the
story of Daniel. Daniel, what weargue is kind of a boarding
school participant. I mean, he,he is taken from his family, is
put into a type of educationscenario where he is asked to
(36:49):
give up his culture. And, youknow, the fun part of the Daniel
story is that it's, it's reallya story of maintaining Jewish
identity. And look at how hethrives as he's able to maintain
a hold on his culture, even indiaspora and exile. And the
irony of all this is thatCanadians and United States
(37:09):
Christians, who are largelyoperating these boarding
schools, who had Daniel at hand,had a possible script to imagine
with, did not see themselves asDan as Babylon, but as they had
all these indigenous Daniels intheir midst, they said, well,
there's nothing good about yourculture. You need to lose your
language, you need to lose yourfoods, you need to lose your
(37:31):
clothes and become like us andtotally conform, which is the
antithesis of the message ofDaniel. And so we kind of walk
through that. But Danny, I wantto pitch it back to you, to talk
to viewers and listeners aboutthe the importance of the Truth
and Reconciliation committee andthe history in Canada, what it
(37:52):
has meant for churches and andfor the process of healing.
Danny Zacharias (37:56):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's certainly still a
lot of work to do, a long way togo, but the Truth and
Reconciliation Commission inCanada, which, you know, was
modeled a lot after whathappened in South Africa, was a
series of events that culminatedthen in a large report. And
those events were large. Theywere spread across Canada in
(38:19):
which really survivors ofresidential schools were invited
to tell their stories, many ofthem, for the very first time,
with incredible trauma beingshared, but also healing begun
for many, or the first step intohealing. So you know, this is an
ancient history residentialschool survivors in Canada are
(38:43):
still with us. There are parentsand grandparents, and sometimes
great grandparents, because theresidential school system was
forced upon First Nationspeople. They were the kids were
taken by the government what wasoriginally supposed to be
education which the communitieswanted in their communities
(39:05):
became boarding schools far awayfrom communities in which they
had no choice, in which theydidn't see their children, in
which incredible harms wereoften done, and which for a
number of decades, was handedOver fully to churches to run.
So it's really just an appallinghistory in Canada, and the TRC
(39:27):
was steps taken towardsreconciliation, to let people
tell their stories, to haveCanada truly listen to it, and
then to say again, what kind ofnation do we need to be in the
light of this history that we'veparticipated in, and it resulted
in a lot of documentation, butalso 94 calls to action that
(39:49):
was, that was aimed at alllevels of society, including
some that, you know, applied to,you know, my particular kind of
circles in kind of low. Smallevangelical spaces, as it were,
and then some very pointedthings, towards the government,
towards media, towards thechurches that ran the schools.
(40:10):
And some of those calls toaction, you know, have been
worked on really well. Some havenot been touched yet. Others
have regressed. Some arecontinuing to move forward, and
depending on the church and thedenomination, it's been varying
levels of progress.
Joshua Johnson (40:27):
In chapter three, you're talking a lot
about along, along the brightpath of you know Jesus's
teachings, so you talk about hishis Jubilee passages. How does
that that help us see thisbright path to see Jesus
teachings, to see the Jubileepassages in light of where we
are and what we're goingthrough.
Chris Hoklotubbe (40:49):
Yeah, one of the themes that we try to trace
throughout this book is theJubilee teachings that both go
to deep within the Hebrew Bible,the memories of the ancient
Jewish people, and then into thestory of Jesus. So at the heart
of the Jubilee teachings is thisrecognition that people are tied
(41:09):
to the land, and people live inrelationship to the land. Land
travels with family, and so thatevery 70 years there's a reset,
that whatever has happened, youknow that you've had to sell
your land, or you've gone intodebt, that there's a
restoration, that people aregiven another chance to get back
to the land, because the landremembers them. The land
sustains them. Their familiesare buried there, and their
(41:30):
whole livelihood is tied to thatland and also their identities,
right? They're who they are, asas laborers, as farmers, as
caretakers of this land thatthat relationship is central to
who they are, and it's restored.
Now, the Hebrew Bible doesn'tdirectly talk about this being
fulfilled, but as one of ourfriends, Michael Rhodes, showed
us, Hebrew people were notunique in doing this. Actually,
(41:52):
we see other ancient cultureshaving laws, legislations that
are like this Jubilee law thatyou know points to this broader
cultural, indigenous recognitionthat like people go with the
land, and their health and wellbeing is tied to their
relationship to that land. Andso we carry this on to Jesus,
and we think about, well, whatdoes salvation mean? What is
(42:13):
Jesus saving us into you? In myevangelical culture, we sure
talk a lot about what Jesus issaving us from, and that's
usually from hell, but so muchof his teachings, especially in
the Gospel of Luke is what is herescuing us into? And
oftentimes, I think we don'tthink deep enough about how what
(42:34):
that looks like is rightrelationships. And from an
indigenous perspective. This isright relationships with all our
relations, which includes theland, which includes the
animals, which includes ourwhole ecosystem that we're
interdependent upon, becausewhen everyone is flourishing,
right, that that's when we aregetting to the kingdom of God
(42:55):
here. So you know that invitesus to think about even returning
to Jesus's first sermon, whichis in Luke four, right? And what
does he do? He starts announcingthe Jubilee. He says, this is
here in your midst, and I havecome to bring right
relationships with you. ThatI've come so that the blind may
(43:16):
see, the dead may live the thethe prisoners might be released,
right that people are given thischance to be in right
relationship. And I will saythat this even trickles down to
a reading of Jesus interactionwith the rich young ruler that
was really taught to me by myfriend Ted Myers. You know when
(43:37):
he asked the rich young ruler togive all your possessions back,
like, follow me and give yourwealth. Well, you know, in our
Western culture, we think, Oh,he's going to empty his bank
account. But in ancient Galileanculture, they don't have that
liquid wealth, that their wealthis tied to, what it's tied to
land that this rich Galileanprobably like other people we
(44:02):
know from socioeconomics, fromsimilar kinds of societies,
agrarian societies, their wealthwas based in land, land that was
likely taken or not taken, butearned or accumulated. That's
the word I'm looking for,because other farmers defaulted
on their loans, and when theyhad nothing to pay, they gave
their land. And so wealth wasaccumulated as more loans were
(44:25):
given out to people thatdefaulted upon and so when Jesus
says, Give give your riches,he's not talking about this
pirate treasure chest. He'ssaying, give the land back.
Right? Give the land back to thepeople and then come follow me
and see how much more you canlive in right relationship to
Danny Zacharias (44:49):
others. Yeah.
And one thing I want to add tois Chris and I are really
indebted to Randy Woodley forthis chapter, and he's kind of
appears through. About thischapter, it helped us learn
about indigenous cultures fromhis own research. And the idea
of kind of these principles ofharmony have very much been in
Indigenous ways of knowing itbeing, and that that kind of
(45:12):
energized our imagination, as ithad Randy to go back to the
Gospels, go back to theScripture and kind of make us
rethink, right? And see, andthat language of bright path
comes from Christmas tradition,you know, walking in a good way.
That's kind of comes, you know,that's more kind of the cremate
way of talking. But it's allgoing to the same thing, right?
(45:35):
Learning to walk well before acreator in the way that he
intended, which means thatyou're seeking balance and
harmony within all yourrelationships with people
closest to you, the peoplefurthest from you, your
ancestors behind and your futuregenerations that will come to
you, as well as the land thatyou're on
Joshua Johnson (45:56):
the through line of your book. And we talk about,
I think we have two differentdistinctions of faith. That
there is a place where a lot ofpeople have read the Bible as a
transactional Faith and Faith astransaction. And this feels like
we're reading the Bible as faithas relationship, is relationship
(46:18):
to, you know, all of creation,to us, to God, to each other, to
the land, to all of creation.
How does the the shift fromtransactional faith into
relational faith help us?
Because
Chris Hoklotubbe (46:33):
I think one of the transactions I see a lot
happening is is one of power. Itis that my faith gives me this
higher standing, that I've gotultimate power on my side that's
going to up my luck towardprosperity and wealth, that's
that's going to increase my mylife and prosperity. And that
(46:56):
makes me think of conversationswith my friend Donnie Begay, for
whom you know, in in todayculture, there's, there's not a
word clearly for Good and Evil.
There is good and evil, but theway in which they ascribe evil
is using your power to diminishothers in order that you might
extend your own life or gainmore power, right? And that that
kind of captures evil, right?
(47:17):
Right? That's the MO of mostvillains and stories and and I
feel like for it seems to methat there's a lot of people
that use scripture and use theirChristian faith in this
transactional way. And whatwe're trying to point people to
is that the way of Jesus reallyis about the self giving,
(47:40):
empowerment of others that isabout being in relationship and
navigating what love looks likeat any given moment that is
attentive to what does thisrelationship need and what is
this relationship asking me ofThis that takes me to my grad
(48:01):
school days where, you know,there's this question of those,
John, does gospel John have anethics? Because it doesn't
really, it talks about love, butdoesn't really unpack what love
looks like until we get to thatfoot washing ceremony, right?
And one could even say, well,all the DNA of what love looks
like is there in this storythat's asking us, maybe by not
giving us a clear answer, likewe might in Kantian philosophy,
(48:23):
like show me all the things,list me in propositions, all the
things I need to do to love.
Rather, it tells you a goodstory that's supposed to
activate your imagination ofwhat does self giving, humble
love look like at any moment,and with the story of my mind,
how is this going to help formand shape me as the disciple to
to look for with eyes, to seewhat love looks like in this
(48:45):
moment with the relationships athand. Yeah.
Danny Zacharias (48:49):
And the other thing I would say too, which you
know Chris was going there rightat the end, is the Bible speaks
about salvation and life withGod in all sorts of ways, and
there are metaphors oftransaction. There are meta
judicial metaphors. The problemis that there are certain
metaphors that have dominatedWestern Christian ways of
(49:11):
thinking and theology. And we'retrying to say maybe there's
better metaphors for us to usethat will be more fruitful, that
will foster in us the ways weought to think about ourselves
and the community we belong toand our God that make us better
human beings make us more to bemore Christ like and I think
(49:35):
that we can see the results ofan over emphasis on judicial
metaphors and transactionalmetaphors playing out in Western
Christianity today, and it's achance to look at the wider body
of Christ and look to ourscriptures and say, Is there
better ways of us creativelyengaging with our theology and.
(50:00):
Comes right from our texts andcomes from a wider
Chris Hoklotubbe (50:03):
community.
Elaborate on what Danny justsaid, is to say, maybe not, I
get worried about better, butmaybe more balanced ways,
because our book is has a verymuch yes and approach. It's Yes,
there are transactional thingsand there are other metaphors,
and it's not to like. I think inthe Western culture, we often
(50:24):
sign things like, it's it's oneor the other, like, we've got to
like. And this is where I thinkDanny was going to that. I want
to be clear to our readers,because I think sometimes when
they hear this language, they'relike, Oh, well, they're trying.
They're dissing completelyanzone, or they're throwing away
my conservative faith, like, no,no, no, that's something we're
doing. We're saying yes and yes,that's there. And there's these
(50:45):
beautiful things that, ifthey're brought into balance,
can create a more holistic,satisfying, and we would argue,
Biblical faith that had we'veunder appreciated, and we've,
we've, we've lost track ofbecause of our 21st Century Euro
American culture.
Danny Zacharias (51:04):
Joshua, this is why our book was pretty good,
because I would say something,that's okay, Chris would come
along make it better, then we'dset it to the editor, and she'd
totally rewrite it, and then itwas good, yeah, and vice
Joshua Johnson (51:16):
versa. Hey, that that's very typical of what this
book is all about is actuallycollaboration, relationship with
one another. That is not anindividual game, but it is a
game that we're in thistogether. And so you reflected
that within your writing peopleeditor. So that was wonderful.
If you had hope for your readersthat would read reading the
(51:40):
Bible on Turtle Island. Whathope do you have for this book?
Danny Zacharias (51:44):
I mean, my first hope is that, you know,
each person would buy 500 copiesand give them out to their
friends. I mean, that wouldreally help our Yeah. I mean,
certainly we hope that peoplewill have an increasing
appreciation of the diversity ofthe Body of Christ, given that
we have, you know, intentionallyfocused on our places, our
(52:05):
countries, Turtle Island, theplace where we belong. We really
hope that indigenous readerswill feel empowered to know that
there's beauty and truth andwisdom in their traditions that
come from creator and can enrichtheir lives, and that they don't
see an internal conflict betweentheir devotion to Christ and the
(52:31):
reality of them being Choctaw,them being Lakota, them being
Cree, them being whatever nationthey belong to, because that is
so often been the gospel. Again,as Richard twist used to say,
We've only heard the gospel asbad news. It's like, yeah, Jesus
loves you, except for everyother part of you. And and we
(52:54):
want to say, no, actually, Godcreated you that way, and
there's beautiful assets to whoyou are, and for non Indigenous
readers, Chris, what about ournon Indigenous readers?
Chris Hoklotubbe (53:05):
I hope that they would take this book and
see this book is for them, thatany thing that's good, true and
beautiful may have its ownexpression, and that's that's
local to is kind of sociallocation, but, but that if it's
good and wonderful, it's fortheir Betterment too, and that
(53:27):
they might be enriched from it.
So, you know, we've even seen,if you look at the back of the
book, you know, some of ourendorsers like, oh, this book
wasn't for me, but I still learnfrom it, like I get the
rhetorical turn of that phrase.
Because in many ways, I one ofmy biggest hope is that, as
Danny said, that an indigenousperson would read this book and
feel like I could do this too.
My hope is that this isn't thelast book on this topic, that
(53:49):
there's even more words, right?
Like we just scratched thesurface. We hope for more of
this, and I do, but I do want tosay like, and this book is for
you. This book isn't aboutbashing Euro Americans. This
book isn't about like listinggrievances. This book is really
(54:09):
grounded in an asset basedapproach that says that, you
know, our way forward of havinglife at its best together is by
telling these stories of of thegoodness and the joy and the
beauty that's out there, notjust for indigenous flourishing,
but for all our all ourflourishing.
Joshua Johnson (54:28):
That's wonderful. Well, reading the
Bible on Turtle Island will beavailable anywhere books are
sold. You go and get that. It'san excellent book, and I really
thank you for writing this. Ithink it's a perspective that is
missing and we need. And so thishas been fantastic. Is there
anywhere that you would like topoint people to? How could they
(54:49):
connect with what you're doing?
Danny Zacharias (54:51):
We are both connected with Nate's. Chris has
mentioned that we mentioned alot in the book. And so you can
learn more about nates@nates.comand. Like I said, I'm dedicated
divinity college. If you want toknow more about me, that's the
main halls that I haunt. And Iwould also say, you know, if, if
this continues to spark readersand are desiring more, certainly
(55:14):
minor footnotes. But there'salso a journal that comes out of
the annual Nate symposium thatwe both contributed to. I'm one
of the current editors, and sothere's lots of ways to connect
and continue to learn well.
Joshua Johnson (55:27):
Danny and Chris, thank you for this conversation.
Thank you for bringing us intowhat does it look like to read
the Bible on Turtle Island. AndI really enjoyed our
conversation. I think a lot ofpeople get some good things out
of it, and the book isfantastic, and I think that
people, everybody needs to readit. So it's not just for one
person or one group of people,but it's for all of us, so that
(55:51):
we could actually see that theBible was an indigenous book
written by indigenous peoplethat was informed by the land,
their connection with it, andtheir connection to creation and
and all of us, and so I reallyenjoyed it. So thank you so
much.
Danny Zacharias (56:08):
Thank you so much. Thank you, yes, yeah,
thank you. You you.
Our way forward of having life at its
best together is by tellingthese stories of the goodness
and the joy and the beautythat's out there, not just for
indigenous flourishing, but forall our flourishing.
Unknown (00:22):
You Hello
Joshua Johnson (00:26):
and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in
which we have conversationsabout the culture we create and
the impact we can make. We longto see the body of Christ look
like Jesus. I'm your host.
Joshua Johnson, faith has oftenbeen used to erase culture, to
separate people from the land,from their ancestors and even
their own sense of belonging.
But Chris Hawk to be and DannyZacharias invite us to a
(00:47):
different vision. In their book,reading the Bible on Turtle
Island, they open a circle wherestory, land and Scripture meet,
showing how the Bible itself isan indigenous text rooted in
land, community and covenant.
Chris and Danny draw from deepwells of indigenous wisdom,
revealing a way of reading theBible that is not about
dominance or extraction, butabout relationship, reciprocity
(01:09):
and then restoration. Theyremind us that creation itself
is alive with God's presence,that the Earth, the animals and
the waters are not resources tobe used, but relatives to be
honored. They invite us to seehow the teachings of Jesus, from
Jubilee to the Sermon on theMount call us back into right
relationship with creator, withcreation and with one another.
(01:30):
So join us for a conversationthat explores what it means to
reclaim beauty and goodness inour traditions, to heal the
fracture between faith and theland and to move from a
transactional faith built onpower to a relational faith
built on love together, let'simagine what it might look like
to walk the bright path ofJesus, grounded, humble and
(01:51):
connected to all our relations.
Here's my conversation withChris Hawk the Tubi and Danny
Zacharias, Chris and Danny,welcome to shifting culture.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
Danny Zacharias (02:04):
Thanks very much for inviting us. Yeah, we
really appreciate being here.
Joshua Johnson (02:09):
You know, at the beginning of the book, you talk
about the circle dance, andyou're welcoming people to the
circle. Can you welcome us tothe circle? Can you just orient
us to what we're going to betalking about and invite us into
this circle dance,
Danny Zacharias (02:24):
yeah, well, I mean, I can invite you in by
first telling you who I am andwhat we're doing kind of thing.
So my name is Danny Zacharias,originally born in Winnipeg,
Manitoba, which is treaty oneterritory where my maternal
ancestors resided for yearsuntold, as well as other treated
areas in Canada. But I live nowin McMahon, which is the
(02:46):
ancestral and unceded territoryof the megamaw peoples. Now
that's Nova Scotia today in anhour outside of Halifax, where I
serve at Acadia divinity collegeas Associate Dean with my wife
and four kids here and I alsoserve as an adjunct professor
with Nate's indigenous learningcommunity. And so part of what
(03:07):
you hear in my introduction tomyself is my heritage, my
history, my theological history,and those things are kind of
coming together in this book anddiscussion with you today,
having grown up in kind ofchurch adjacent until I was in
my teens, but then embracingChristian faith in a family that
(03:27):
largely didn't talk about ourindigenous heritage because of
discrimination that my ancestorsreceived and later in life. Kind
of post all of my theologicaleducation, post my PhD, or,
sorry, maybe kind of mid PhD,where I started asking these
questions again. What does itmean for me to be an indigenous
(03:47):
follower of Jesus, and in thecase of this book, what does it
mean for me to think this way asa biblical, trained biblical
scholar? How do I bring thetools that I have and engage
this, this type of thinking,this type of worldview, these
lifeways that I've sought toreclaim as part of my cultural
(04:08):
heritage. So as we kind of enterthat circle, this is the context
of why this, this whole dancehas started in the first place.
Chris Hoklotubbe (04:15):
Halito chimachikma, my name is Chris
hocklow Tubby. I'm a member ofthe Chota nation, and I am a New
Testament scholar by training. Icurrently live with my wife and
two daughters outside of CedarRapids, Iowa and Lisbon, Iowa. I
teach three quarters time withCornell College, a small liberal
(04:35):
arts college here in Iowa, aswell as I am the Director of
Graduate Studies for Nate's andindigenous learning community.
And Nate's is proud to be thefirst indigenous design
developed, delivered andgoverned theological institution
to be accredited by theAssociation of theological
schools. And I say that becauseNate's was a real big part of my
(04:58):
entry point into. To thisproject. So in graduate school,
there was a large emphasis onhow our social location informs
the kinds of questions we bringto the text and the meanings we
bring from the text. And so, youknow, I really benefited from
reading African American, AsianAmerican, Latina, Latina
(05:21):
interpretations of the Bible,but there wasn't very much on
indigenous interpretations ofthe Bible. There were
scatterings of such, but nothingthat really focused on it in
particular. And if there waspieces on indigenous
Christianity, it was mostlytheology or explaining
(05:42):
indigenous theology to Christianaudiences and talking broadly
about it, but not deepengagement with biblical texts.
So at some point I just thought,well, if I'm not finding the
text out there, maybe God hasinvited me. Maybe the Holy
Spirit is leading me to writesomething on this. And yet I
didn't want to do this apartfrom community. And so that's
(06:03):
what led me into Nate's, andalso led me to meet Danny. And
as soon as I met Danny and weshared our hearts of what our
passions were, we said, whywould we write this apart, like,
why don't we write this togetherand make a project so much
richer by including stories fromCanada and the United States,
which oftentimes ourimaginations of indigenous
(06:25):
experiences are just separated,but there's a lot of
commonalities and a lot ofrichness by bringing these
stories together, thus theproject for doing a book on
indigenous interpretations ofTurtle Island
Joshua Johnson (06:37):
take me into then that social place and that
the place that you're startingto engage the text from, and
contrast that with a with a morenormative thinking for most
people that already live inNorth America that are not
(06:58):
indigenous way of of engagingscripture. What was the
difference because of yoursocial location, than a white,
European settler, North Americaninterpretation of Scripture?
Chris Hoklotubbe (07:15):
So I would start that indigenous people
have been reading the Bible andmaking meaning from it, from
their social locations, from thevery beginning of missionary
contact. And a lot of thesestories have been missed or
underappreciated. And even tothis day, when we were talking
to indigenous ministers andleaders about how their cultures
(07:38):
inform how they read the Bible,oftentimes they would say, Well,
you know, it really does. I justread the Bible as is, right?
Danny, actually, this is yourstory, right? You You spoke with
someone who said, Well, I don'tread the Bible any distinct way.
But then they started talkingabout their dreams and how their
dreams inform how they makemeaning of the Bible. And you're
(07:59):
like, oh, but that's anindigenous interpretation. And,
you know, I was talking to thiscrow pastor, Kenny pretty on top
Jr. And again, he was like, Ijust read the Bible straight
forward. We just preachstraightforward. But then I did
this sermon where I was talkingabout the imagery of Jesus
adopting us, imagery that's verypowerful in Galatians as a
(08:21):
metaphor for how we are maderight with God, we participate
in Jesus, and he brought it tothis a crow ceremony. It's a
ceremony that's really big for alot of clains indigenous tribes,
which is the adoption ceremony.
And when they have their powwowsor gatherings, in one of these
moments, the music stops andthere's an announcement that's
made that says there's a lostchild in the audience. And then
(08:43):
when the dancers goes throughthe stadium and brings a family
down, and then there's thisbeautiful adoption ceremony in
front of everybody that a lostchild is brought back into this
family and is claimed as amember of the Crow Nation. And
he's talking about this like,this is what Jesus does for us.
Jesus is like this crow dancerwho goes in and finds the lost
sheep and brings them to thecenter, and there's this huge
(09:05):
celebration that the Lost isfound. And that just said,
shivers down my spine, and I waslike, this is beautiful and and
this is one of the points we aretrying to make in this book, is
that the Creator, that God hasbeen present with indigenous
people from the very beginning,that they were not left without
a witness to what a good,beautiful life looks like, that,
(09:26):
what harmony looks like, what abalanced, right relationship
with all our relationships looklike. And so if we start with
that premise, then ourceremonies, our stories, our
values, our cultures, have thefingerprint of creator on them
and are useful assets for ourtheological imagination that
help us to unpack and see thingsthat are underappreciated in the
(09:49):
text, that have always beenthere, that we don't see with
our 21st Century Western eyes,our Euro American trained eyes,
and in many ways. Indigenouspeople today are much more
similar in culture and contextto the Galileans and the ancient
Hebrews and in fact, thebiblical scholarship. When we
(10:09):
think about sociologicalinterpretations that we try to
do cultural interpretations,whether it's honor, shame or
kinship, well, New Testamentscholars are going to
ethnographers andanthropologists, but where are
they getting their models from?
They're getting their modelsfrom indigenous people. So in
(10:29):
ways, we're kind of reclaimingand naming what's always been
done is that indigenous peoplehave been contributing to
indigenous interpretation forfor a while, and we all benefit
from it.
Joshua Johnson (10:40):
One of the things that I think has helped
me in the past is actuallyviewing the Bible as an
indigenous text itself, like itwas written by indigenous people
through their hands, telling thestory of indigenous people and
the land for a long time, howdoes that interpretation of the
bible of viewing it asindigenous wisdom written for us
(11:04):
by indigenous people help us seethe Bible for what it is.
Danny Zacharias (11:08):
Yeah, no, that's really good. I mean, our,
one of our kind of predecessors,you know, who we've looked to,
even though I didn't get tomeet, was Richard twist, who
wrote some really good books.
And he would often, you know,just say, Jesus was an
indigenous man walking in thelands of his ancestors and and
he knew that history of hispeople. He knew the histories of
(11:30):
the lands that he occupied andhow they were, you know,
especially at his time,oppressed, you know, and and
colonized, and all of thesethings bear, you know, so much
connection to what how we aretoday. So, you know, I think
that is, that is really spot on,especially if we kind of expand
it out and understand, again,those sociological factors like
(11:53):
being tribal people. I mean, theIsraelites were tribal people,
they were collectivist in theirmentality. They shared these
things that tribal people theworld over still share today,
which is very different fromNorth American readers, which
are very individualist, right?
(12:15):
That's just the kind of themakeup of our society. It's a
society I grew up in. I wager toguess that all three of us would
have that connection toindividualistic culture. And you
know, if that's the water thatyou swim in, you don't default
to thinking like a communitariansociety, but that's what the
Hebraic culture was like. Thatwas the culture of Jesus, and it
(12:39):
is the culture that, again, manypeople do share across Turtle
Island and across the world, andso those are assets that, you
know, we can learn about, tryand embrace, especially those of
indigenous heritage like myself.
That's, you know, part of mycultural reclamation is
understanding and trying to liveinto those worldviews and those
life ways that see all things asrelated, that have a more
(13:02):
communitarian mindset. Becauseas kind of Chris intimated, as
you just intimated, this is verymuch aligned with the Hebraic
mindset from those who wrote ourscriptures.
Joshua Johnson (13:15):
You know, in your chapter, it's all relative.
You write about all of ourrelations. So how do you see
scripture affirming this web ofkinship among lands, people and
creatures?
Danny Zacharias (13:28):
Yeah, all my relations is language that's
shared across a number of FirstNations across Turtle Island. It
comes in different forms.
Sometimes it's kind of embeddedinto some of their just
teachings and ceremonies. Sopart of, for instance, Cree
natural law, which is part of myheritage, it's kind of embedded
(13:48):
in some of the natural laws ofpre law, where and then
sometimes it manifests in actualsayings, right? So the Metis
often end their prayers with allmy relations. You know, it's
this reminder ofinterconnectedness, kinship,
same with the Lakota. I'mblanking on the exact phrase in
(14:11):
Lakota, although I knew it atone time, getting old,
forgetting things. But there isthis, this kind of undergirding.
Part of the indigenous worldviewis interconnectedness with all
things, and it's certainly primeand kind of foundational for
indigenous worldviews. And itmanifests in sayings. It
(14:31):
manifests in ceremony, as wekind of go into the scriptures
then, and as I, as I lookespecially at the Hebrew Bible,
but into the New Testament aswell. I just see so much
resonance with that the OldTestament, you know, I think
about, I think about OldTestament scholars who have
focused on land and said, like,land is so central to the Old
(14:51):
Testament, covenant, therelationship with the land, the
relationship with creator. It'slike this triangle, right? It's.
It's the human community, it'sit's God Self, and it's the land
that you occupy. This is thepicture that we have in the
garden, right? So Adam and Eveare placed in a in a garden to
to care for it, and that thelanguage, or the translation
(15:15):
I've I've advocated for, is toserve and conform to it, meaning
that you need to embrace therhythms of the land around you,
and you're called to serve itthese this is the wording that's
used. So you see in our creationstory how it sets us up for this
kind of triangulation ofrelationship with a particular
(15:35):
land. And then through thecreation story as well. We see
how we are one amongst manycreated things in which we're in
interrelationship. So the plantsfeed us, it feeds they feed the
birds. They feed the landcreatures. And that is the way
creator has designed it to be.
(15:58):
You know, we are in thisessential relationship. And so
when we don't recognize this andthen live in a right way, given
that that's the design, thenthen destruction is inevitable,
right? If we're not living increator's designed way. And so
the way the indigenous worldviewworks and reinforces it is to
(16:21):
always be reminding ourselvesthat these things are our
relatives, as relatives, theydeserve respect, and that
respect manifests in differentways, but is especially centered
on the idea of our of the Earthas mother, the land is always
taking care of us, and that'sthe way that God has designed it
(16:41):
right from Genesis one. And sothe language of relative is, is
how it manifests in theindigenous ways of thinking and
being. And I certainly see asyou, as you mentioned in the
chapter on it's all relativethread lines through our
scriptures that help us to thinkin the same ways, and it's
(17:02):
really our hope that we can,along with many other
theological voices, counter theidea that land is a commodity
that we are meant to rule overit in in a domineering way,
rather than seeing ourselves asa Part of it.
Joshua Johnson (17:20):
Right now, in the world that we live in today,
we're morphing into closer tosomething called like a
monoculture. We Westerncivilization and progress, and
this need for more and moreexpansion and growth feels like
the world over is starting tomorph into one conglomerate of a
(17:43):
culture. Why is it important forus to reclaim some culture, to
be able to see some things thatwe may be missing now, and why
is it really important thatwe're seeing the Bible, even
reclaiming some indigenousculture that's been here in this
land for a long time.
Danny Zacharias (18:03):
It made me think immediately of the
portrait in Revelation withpeople from many tribes, tongues
and nations, that that diversityof culture and peoples has
always been God's plan from thebeginning, and as we have this
vision of the heavenly throne inRevelation, we see that it is
(18:25):
also the culmination ofcreator's goal, and so it's
something that we need tocelebrate, and a vision is meant
for us to live into. So, youknow, I agree with your
diagnosis, you know, with thekind of collapsing of, or maybe
that's not the right word, but,you know, this the expansion of
(18:46):
the internet and all in socialmedia, which has made everything
feel really close. You know,the, what used to be six degrees
of separation is now two, thatkind of thing. I mean, it has
collapsed those things and, andit's a detriment to, you know,
the diversity that God embracesand loves, but there is always a
hegemonic drift, especially whenyou were in places that are, you
(19:11):
know, superpowers in the world.
So that's kind of one part Iwanted to say. And in terms of
diagnosis, any further diagnosisChris is, is, I could see in his
face, he's pondering and readyto speak his mouth.
Chris Hoklotubbe (19:22):
You know, the story that came to my mind was
someone we talked to, and I'llleave her name anonymous, but
she said, growing up, she justhad this sense of, I'm a dirty
Indian, like there's just thisdeep sadness and around the idea
that there's really nothingbeautiful or good within my
(19:45):
tradition that contributeseither to the dominant culture
or to even our theologicalimagination. And so much of our
project is to celebrate, tocelebrate and identify the
assets of indigenous culturethat it has a. Lot of beauty, a
lot to give, not only for us,but we think, offers some good
(20:07):
medicine to some of the excessesand directions that this world
is taking. And as you thinkabout monocultures, one of our
invitations in this book, Ithink, is to is back to the
particular right? So again, wedon't want to say that there,
that we're trying to do a panindigenous, all indigenous work.
Here we are just beginning aconversation, and we want to
(20:27):
encourage more conversationsthat get even more local. And in
a world that is becoming moreand more monoculture, that is
experiencing that through brandsand through internet, there's
this real invitation to get toknow the land that you're on.
Learn about the ancestralstewards of this land, learn
(20:47):
about the watershed that affectsyour ecosystem. Have some kind
of tangible relationship withyour garden outside and with the
people around you, becausethat's going to be, you know,
the things that you're inrelationship with, and that's in
your particular location, is,are particular location is are
going to be the most meaningfullife impacting relationships you
have, versus the quick hits ofendorphins that we get from our
(21:10):
participation on the internet.
Joshua Johnson (21:12):
I grew up in Puyallup, Washington, which is
indigenous name for a people,meaning the land of generous
people. And so it was for me tobe able to know like, Oh, it is
the land of generous people.
This valley is fertile. It'sgenerous. There's this land. It
actually helps me get a broaderview of where I come from, who I
(21:36):
am, even though I'm notindigenous myself through birth
and heritage, but to be able tobe on that land, we are
connected, and I think that'simportant for me growing up
there. But one thing I like isthat I know that it was it's an
indigenous name. How can westart to reclaim some of that
(21:59):
for people who don't really haveeyes to see what actually is
there. You know, you're talkingabout reclaiming what has been
there all along. Chris like, howdo we start to see and uncover
what has been there?
Chris Hoklotubbe (22:15):
You know, I am of the persuasion that we don't
win people over througharguments. We win them through
relationships and stories. Andthat's one of the things that
we've tried to do in this book,is to tell a lot of stories of
beauty and joy and goodness thatis happening in Indian Country,
that's happening in ourcommunities, to kind of give a
(22:39):
taste and see approach thatthere is some goodness here.
Once you see that goodness andexperiencing that goodness, you
might kind of look for it. Youknow, one of the things we talk
about bringing it back to theland, is this idea of how being
in a relationship with land canhave this really life giving
effect upon us, even just bysaying thank you to the land.
(23:00):
For many indigenous people,there are ceremonies where we
give tobacco to the land, orwhen we do honorable harvests,
or the first fish ceremony,which is to say, thank you to
the salmon for the food thatfeeds us. And this comes to
recognizing plants and animalsas persons, rather than objects
(23:23):
or beings. But when you evenjust take in this perspective
that animals and plants arepersons, or at least could be
persons, let's just start there.
That changes our emotionalresponse and attitude and even
our sense, and ultimately, oursense of responsibilities and
duties to the things around thisrather than to think of them as
objects, as its as disposableand extractable resources that
(23:45):
expand our power and our wealth,to change it, to change that,
even that little perspective,that that tree is a person, that
animal is a person. I just walkaround my days with just a bit
more gratitude. Like, wow. Like,look at this beauty. Look at
everything that around that'saround me that sustains my life,
that allows me to live when Ieat meat, that's a life that has
(24:08):
died, that's been given, thatthat sustained my life. And we,
when you look at worldreligions, one of the most
common spiritual attitudes thatthe wisest sages are trying to
get us toward is this area ofgratitude and appreciation and
this constant practice of sayingthank you. And so me, it's your
(24:29):
prayer, right? Is to say thankyou to God, and how it changes
our inner disposition. And so wecan even move toward that boy
that that's a life changingmove.
Joshua Johnson (24:40):
Let's get into some biblical interpretation. So
let's go into naboth'sdescendants. And how does
reading the story like that? Sotell us what the story is in
Exodus, and then move into whatdoes it look like to read that
from an indigenous perspectivein North America? Naboth.
Danny Zacharias (24:59):
You know, this is a. Little known character, in
some sense, like it's a smallstory, but it is, and has been
significant for indigenouspeoples, because it's almost
like a story in miniature ofexactly what's happened on
Turtle Island. So Naboth is anIsraelite who has a land that
(25:21):
has been passed on to him. It'shis family land, and he
recognizes the responsibility tosteward it. And along comes the
king Ahab who has really nodevotion to the covenant, nor
any sort of kind of honorablekingship, along with his darling
(25:45):
wife, the Queen Jezebel and andbasically they, they conspire to
get naboth's vineyard by killinghim so that so that the king can
have the land. And obviously, Ihad read that story before, but
it really came kind of to thefore to me again, just with a
little little quote, as I wasreading about a missionary on
(26:10):
the west coast of Canada. Hislast name was claw, C, l, a, H,
and as he was contending withthe government over their lands,
his his people's lands, andessentially being told that you
need to get off of it and notcome back. He made, you know,
(26:32):
this reference to this story,and he said, I've read the story
of Naboth, and I know that Godwas not happy when Ahab took his
land, and you know that thattheological reflection from an
indigenous social location inthe midst of land being taken
(26:52):
away by a government that is nottreating with you at all like
there was no treaty processthere. It was just a don't come
back type of thing by aChristian indigenous missionary,
right who who was devoted toChrist, who saw the value of the
gospel and and the healing thatit brought to his people. And so
(27:14):
he was a missionary, and yetbeing willing to speak truth to
power in that way. I justthought was really powerful. And
in our chapter, obviously, wetalk about this and and, you
know, indigenous readers, whenwe read a story like that, you
know, we see ourselves kind ofsymbolically, like we are
(27:35):
descendants of this very personwho has undergone the same type
of thing where people with morepower came along and did what
they wanted with our lands thatwe belonged to, instead of being
good neighbors and choosing tobecause indigenous people have
(27:56):
always been willing to share theland well, to be good neighbors
with them. It's an overlappingkind of sovereignty, because
they always believe that theland was the one that took care
of us all, and then the gifts ofthe land were for the sustenance
of all the animals and the humanbeings and the birds and
everything else. And so we notonly start that chapter with
(28:20):
this story. But we go on to thensay, what are the other things
that happened because of landtheft and colonization? And we
talk about moving to talk about,for instance, the trail of
broken treaties is our subtitle,because there are numerous
treaties across Turtle Island. Idon't know the exact number.
(28:42):
It's a lot. There's more in theStates than there is in Canada,
because there is First Nationsin the States. But those
treaties were almost neverhonored, and that should be a
huge issue for Christians whenwe believe that we are people of
covenant, that God hascovenanted with us, and we ought
to be good covenant partnersback and so for us to to bear
(29:07):
this heritage as as countriesboth can in the US of not
honoring treaties that were madeshould be deeply troubling to
Christians today, and it shouldcause us to think about what are
ways that we ought to be livingin a good way given this
fractured history.
Joshua Johnson (29:25):
So how does the role of truth telling something
like that? I'm a Nabothdescendant. I actually see
myself in the story. This isactually what is happening here
and now, and you are breakingtreaties. You're telling Get off
my hands, like this is notright. How does the role of like
(29:47):
justice and truth telling in aplace where some people may not
necessarily right away, see theinjustice of it, but having a
different perspective actuallyshows us that there is a place
of injustice. Is, what role doesthat take place as we're reading
scripture?
Chris Hoklotubbe (30:05):
You know, one of the things I teach my
students when we talk aboutpreaching is that good preaching
is always in conversation withdaily events or the things that
are impacting a community. Andthis is why it's important to
have models for preaching thattend to our social location,
because people bring indifferent stories and different
concerns. And so, for example,my tribe, the Chalta, you know,
(30:27):
one of the stories we carry withus is the Trail of Tears and the
Treaty of dancing Rabbit Creek,which occurred much more like an
episode of sopranos withintimidation and trickery versus
a kind of a, you know, a dealwhere best interests are made
and a good faith effort is madeto find a win win situation. And
(30:49):
so if these are the stories wecarry, then when we're making
connections to stories in theBible, and seeing ourselves in
the Bible, it's going to look alittle bit different than people
who don't have those stories,and so when preaching the Bible,
or thinking about these storiesof the Bible, there become
really great opportunities. Aswe're telling the story of
(31:10):
either the exile of Jewishpeople from Jerusalem into
Babylon, these becomespringboards launching off pads
to tell other stories that mightbe under appreciated or unknown
by wider audiences. For example,one of the things that I really
appreciated in my time inOklahoma, talking to Chadha and
(31:31):
Cherokee people about where theysee their indigenous and their
Christian identities come toblossom and flourish, is I would
hear oftentimes about theimportance of the Chota and
Cherokee hymns, and him singing.
And for many Chota and Cherokeethose hymns were sung, and even
many written along the trail oftears. And when you think about
that, and you think about Psalm137 by the rivers of Babylon and
(31:56):
and actually, what's reallyinteresting about that we don't
actually have a lot of firsthand have a lot of first hand
accounts from the Jewishscripture about what that trail
was like to go from Jerusalem toBabylon. Everything is
referenced around it, thatexperience and that emotion is
not there. Well, it getscaptured in song. And when you
juxtapose Chota Cherokee songswith that were written song
(32:21):
along the trail with Psalm 130says 37 you get this like, deep
appreciation for how songs carryus through hard times and also,
and we talk about this more inthe book. I won't get into it
here. But when Cherokee seeingmany of the songs, like only a
drop of blood or Amazing Grace,they tell stories about the
(32:43):
Trail of Tears and the hardshipsthey faced, about how their
women were assaulted or theirbabies were murdered along the
trail. And these oral traditionscarry along with the songs and
the songs that follow after.
These stories become thesemoments of remembrance and
lament, but also kind ofresistance. We hear about the
(33:05):
idea, the idea of a dangerousmemory, that by continuing to
remember and tell these stories,these are acts of resistance.
These are acts of maintainingour identity until in the
stories, until, you know,justice is fully accounted for,
maybe not on this side of theworld, but in heaven, and
imagine, you know, is this howthe Psalms and songs functioned
(33:28):
for ancient Jewish people goinginto Babylon and in Babylon,
what stories did they tellalongside of the songs as they
sang and lamented on the riversof Babylon?
Danny Zacharias (33:40):
If I can add one more thing to something else
we need to think about as screwas readers of Scripture, is be
aware of what character you maybe thinking about yourself as,
because we don't like to benecessarily confronted. You
know, we're happy to think ofourselves as that one sheep that
(34:02):
gets saved, you know, by theshepherd who left the 99 but are
you? Are you brave enough tomaybe say, maybe I'm occupying,
occupying the place of KingAhab? You know it here. I'm not
made off. I'm a in light of thatWho do I need to be now that I
(34:22):
know this?
Joshua Johnson (34:23):
Yeah, what an incredible point, and so helpful
for us, a lot of us in theUnited States who are in the
empire, living in the empire,and complicit in Empire at
which, you know, the Bible waswritten through a people that
the Empire had their foot on thenecks of those people. And so
now you know, if I'm part of theempire, how am I going to
(34:46):
actually see myself in the storyof Scripture and where, what do
I need to do? And that hasreframed a lot of of my thinking
and seeing scripture, and it'sbeen very, very helpful. So
great point. But you also talkedto. Recently about Babylon, and
that's, you know, the trail toBabylon, the exile. So talking
about old, older stories,dangerous memory, Trail of
(35:09):
Tears, you talk about boardingschools as well. How does this
story of exile in Babylonactually help us deal with
cultural trauma and then bringabout reconciliation? And
restitution that needs tohappen, because we again, are in
a culture that is forwardthinking, always about progress.
(35:32):
We're like that was the past. Wedon't have to think about it
anymore. How does this help usbecome better creatures of God?
Chris Hoklotubbe (35:40):
The pathway to healing comes through truth
telling. Maybe this is what youwere inviting us to get to
beforehand, is that right now,in Canada, the United States, we
don't even know full extent ofthe stories of what occurred in
boarding schools. Canada is muchfarther along. And Danny could
speak about the amazing workthat has happened up there with
(36:04):
the Truth and ReconciliationCommission that we've only tried
to recently under the work ofDeb Holland to approach by
gathering stories of boardingschool survivors who had really
traumatic experiences In thesestructured environments that
then did not really set them upfor success. For many of them,
(36:25):
in the early especially in theearly times of the boarding
schools were really detrimentalto their thriving. When we look
at the story of Babylon, right,there are some resonances in the
story of Daniel. Daniel, what weargue is kind of a boarding
school participant. I mean, he,he is taken from his family, is
put into a type of educationscenario where he is asked to
(36:49):
give up his culture. And, youknow, the fun part of the Daniel
story is that it's, it's reallya story of maintaining Jewish
identity. And look at how hethrives as he's able to maintain
a hold on his culture, even indiaspora and exile. And the
irony of all this is thatCanadians and United States
(37:09):
Christians, who are largelyoperating these boarding
schools, who had Daniel at hand,had a possible script to imagine
with, did not see themselves asDan as Babylon, but as they had
all these indigenous Daniels intheir midst, they said, well,
there's nothing good about yourculture. You need to lose your
language, you need to lose yourfoods, you need to lose your
(37:31):
clothes and become like us andtotally conform, which is the
antithesis of the message ofDaniel. And so we kind of walk
through that. But Danny, I wantto pitch it back to you, to talk
to viewers and listeners aboutthe the importance of the Truth
and Reconciliation committee andthe history in Canada, what it
(37:52):
has meant for churches and andfor the process of healing.
Danny Zacharias (37:56):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's certainly still a
lot of work to do, a long way togo, but the Truth and
Reconciliation Commission inCanada, which, you know, was
modeled a lot after whathappened in South Africa, was a
series of events that culminatedthen in a large report. And
those events were large. Theywere spread across Canada in
(38:19):
which really survivors ofresidential schools were invited
to tell their stories, many ofthem, for the very first time,
with incredible trauma beingshared, but also healing begun
for many, or the first step intohealing. So you know, this is an
ancient history residentialschool survivors in Canada are
(38:43):
still with us. There are parentsand grandparents, and sometimes
great grandparents, because theresidential school system was
forced upon First Nationspeople. They were the kids were
taken by the government what wasoriginally supposed to be
education which the communitieswanted in their communities
(39:05):
became boarding schools far awayfrom communities in which they
had no choice, in which theydidn't see their children, in
which incredible harms wereoften done, and which for a
number of decades, was handedOver fully to churches to run.
So it's really just an appallinghistory in Canada, and the TRC
(39:27):
was steps taken towardsreconciliation, to let people
tell their stories, to haveCanada truly listen to it, and
then to say again, what kind ofnation do we need to be in the
light of this history that we'veparticipated in, and it resulted
in a lot of documentation, butalso 94 calls to action that
(39:49):
was, that was aimed at alllevels of society, including
some that, you know, applied to,you know, my particular kind of
circles in kind of low. Smallevangelical spaces, as it were,
and then some very pointedthings, towards the government,
towards media, towards thechurches that ran the schools.
(40:10):
And some of those calls toaction, you know, have been
worked on really well. Some havenot been touched yet. Others
have regressed. Some arecontinuing to move forward, and
depending on the church and thedenomination, it's been varying
levels of progress.
Joshua Johnson (40:27):
In chapter three, you're talking a lot
about along, along the brightpath of you know Jesus's
teachings, so you talk about hishis Jubilee passages. How does
that that help us see thisbright path to see Jesus
teachings, to see the Jubileepassages in light of where we
are and what we're goingthrough.
Chris Hoklotubbe (40:49):
Yeah, one of the themes that we try to trace
throughout this book is theJubilee teachings that both go
to deep within the Hebrew Bible,the memories of the ancient
Jewish people, and then into thestory of Jesus. So at the heart
of the Jubilee teachings is thisrecognition that people are tied
(41:09):
to the land, and people live inrelationship to the land. Land
travels with family, and so thatevery 70 years there's a reset,
that whatever has happened, youknow that you've had to sell
your land, or you've gone intodebt, that there's a
restoration, that people aregiven another chance to get back
to the land, because the landremembers them. The land
sustains them. Their familiesare buried there, and their
(41:30):
whole livelihood is tied to thatland and also their identities,
right? They're who they are, asas laborers, as farmers, as
caretakers of this land thatthat relationship is central to
who they are, and it's restored.
Now, the Hebrew Bible doesn'tdirectly talk about this being
fulfilled, but as one of ourfriends, Michael Rhodes, showed
us, Hebrew people were notunique in doing this. Actually,
(41:52):
we see other ancient cultureshaving laws, legislations that
are like this Jubilee law thatyou know points to this broader
cultural, indigenous recognitionthat like people go with the
land, and their health and wellbeing is tied to their
relationship to that land. Andso we carry this on to Jesus,
and we think about, well, whatdoes salvation mean? What is
(42:13):
Jesus saving us into you? In myevangelical culture, we sure
talk a lot about what Jesus issaving us from, and that's
usually from hell, but so muchof his teachings, especially in
the Gospel of Luke is what is herescuing us into? And
oftentimes, I think we don'tthink deep enough about how what
(42:34):
that looks like is rightrelationships. And from an
indigenous perspective. This isright relationships with all our
relations, which includes theland, which includes the
animals, which includes ourwhole ecosystem that we're
interdependent upon, becausewhen everyone is flourishing,
right, that that's when we aregetting to the kingdom of God
(42:55):
here. So you know that invitesus to think about even returning
to Jesus's first sermon, whichis in Luke four, right? And what
does he do? He starts announcingthe Jubilee. He says, this is
here in your midst, and I havecome to bring right
relationships with you. ThatI've come so that the blind may
(43:16):
see, the dead may live the thethe prisoners might be released,
right that people are given thischance to be in right
relationship. And I will saythat this even trickles down to
a reading of Jesus interactionwith the rich young ruler that
was really taught to me by myfriend Ted Myers. You know when
(43:37):
he asked the rich young ruler togive all your possessions back,
like, follow me and give yourwealth. Well, you know, in our
Western culture, we think, Oh,he's going to empty his bank
account. But in ancient Galileanculture, they don't have that
liquid wealth, that their wealthis tied to, what it's tied to
land that this rich Galileanprobably like other people we
(44:02):
know from socioeconomics, fromsimilar kinds of societies,
agrarian societies, their wealthwas based in land, land that was
likely taken or not taken, butearned or accumulated. That's
the word I'm looking for,because other farmers defaulted
on their loans, and when theyhad nothing to pay, they gave
their land. And so wealth wasaccumulated as more loans were
(44:25):
given out to people thatdefaulted upon and so when Jesus
says, Give give your riches,he's not talking about this
pirate treasure chest. He'ssaying, give the land back.
Right? Give the land back to thepeople and then come follow me
and see how much more you canlive in right relationship to
Danny Zacharias (44:49):
others. Yeah.
And one thing I want to add tois Chris and I are really
indebted to Randy Woodley forthis chapter, and he's kind of
appears through. About thischapter, it helped us learn
about indigenous cultures fromhis own research. And the idea
of kind of these principles ofharmony have very much been in
Indigenous ways of knowing itbeing, and that that kind of
(45:12):
energized our imagination, as ithad Randy to go back to the
Gospels, go back to theScripture and kind of make us
rethink, right? And see, andthat language of bright path
comes from Christmas tradition,you know, walking in a good way.
That's kind of comes, you know,that's more kind of the cremate
way of talking. But it's allgoing to the same thing, right?
(45:35):
Learning to walk well before acreator in the way that he
intended, which means thatyou're seeking balance and
harmony within all yourrelationships with people
closest to you, the peoplefurthest from you, your
ancestors behind and your futuregenerations that will come to
you, as well as the land thatyou're on
Joshua Johnson (45:56):
the through line of your book. And we talk about,
I think we have two differentdistinctions of faith. That
there is a place where a lot ofpeople have read the Bible as a
transactional Faith and Faith astransaction. And this feels like
we're reading the Bible as faithas relationship, is relationship
(46:18):
to, you know, all of creation,to us, to God, to each other, to
the land, to all of creation.
How does the the shift fromtransactional faith into
relational faith help us?
Because
Chris Hoklotubbe (46:33):
I think one of the transactions I see a lot
happening is is one of power. Itis that my faith gives me this
higher standing, that I've gotultimate power on my side that's
going to up my luck towardprosperity and wealth, that's
that's going to increase my mylife and prosperity. And that
(46:56):
makes me think of conversationswith my friend Donnie Begay, for
whom you know, in in todayculture, there's, there's not a
word clearly for Good and Evil.
There is good and evil, but theway in which they ascribe evil
is using your power to diminishothers in order that you might
extend your own life or gainmore power, right? And that that
kind of captures evil, right?
(47:17):
Right? That's the MO of mostvillains and stories and and I
feel like for it seems to methat there's a lot of people
that use scripture and use theirChristian faith in this
transactional way. And whatwe're trying to point people to
is that the way of Jesus reallyis about the self giving,
(47:40):
empowerment of others that isabout being in relationship and
navigating what love looks likeat any given moment that is
attentive to what does thisrelationship need and what is
this relationship asking me ofThis that takes me to my grad
(48:01):
school days where, you know,there's this question of those,
John, does gospel John have anethics? Because it doesn't
really, it talks about love, butdoesn't really unpack what love
looks like until we get to thatfoot washing ceremony, right?
And one could even say, well,all the DNA of what love looks
like is there in this storythat's asking us, maybe by not
giving us a clear answer, likewe might in Kantian philosophy,
(48:23):
like show me all the things,list me in propositions, all the
things I need to do to love.
Rather, it tells you a goodstory that's supposed to
activate your imagination ofwhat does self giving, humble
love look like at any moment,and with the story of my mind,
how is this going to help formand shape me as the disciple to
to look for with eyes, to seewhat love looks like in this
(48:45):
moment with the relationships athand. Yeah.
Danny Zacharias (48:49):
And the other thing I would say too, which you
know Chris was going there rightat the end, is the Bible speaks
about salvation and life withGod in all sorts of ways, and
there are metaphors oftransaction. There are meta
judicial metaphors. The problemis that there are certain
metaphors that have dominatedWestern Christian ways of
(49:11):
thinking and theology. And we'retrying to say maybe there's
better metaphors for us to usethat will be more fruitful, that
will foster in us the ways weought to think about ourselves
and the community we belong toand our God that make us better
human beings make us more to bemore Christ like and I think
(49:35):
that we can see the results ofan over emphasis on judicial
metaphors and transactionalmetaphors playing out in Western
Christianity today, and it's achance to look at the wider body
of Christ and look to ourscriptures and say, Is there
better ways of us creativelyengaging with our theology and.
(50:00):
Comes right from our texts andcomes from a wider
Chris Hoklotubbe (50:03):
community.
Elaborate on what Danny justsaid, is to say, maybe not, I
get worried about better, butmaybe more balanced ways,
because our book is has a verymuch yes and approach. It's Yes,
there are transactional thingsand there are other metaphors,
and it's not to like. I think inthe Western culture, we often
(50:24):
sign things like, it's it's oneor the other, like, we've got to
like. And this is where I thinkDanny was going to that. I want
to be clear to our readers,because I think sometimes when
they hear this language, they'relike, Oh, well, they're trying.
They're dissing completelyanzone, or they're throwing away
my conservative faith, like, no,no, no, that's something we're
doing. We're saying yes and yes,that's there. And there's these
(50:45):
beautiful things that, ifthey're brought into balance,
can create a more holistic,satisfying, and we would argue,
Biblical faith that had we'veunder appreciated, and we've,
we've, we've lost track ofbecause of our 21st Century Euro
American culture.
Danny Zacharias (51:04):
Joshua, this is why our book was pretty good,
because I would say something,that's okay, Chris would come
along make it better, then we'dset it to the editor, and she'd
totally rewrite it, and then itwas good, yeah, and vice
Joshua Johnson (51:16):
versa. Hey, that that's very typical of what this
book is all about is actuallycollaboration, relationship with
one another. That is not anindividual game, but it is a
game that we're in thistogether. And so you reflected
that within your writing peopleeditor. So that was wonderful.
If you had hope for your readersthat would read reading the
(51:40):
Bible on Turtle Island. Whathope do you have for this book?
Danny Zacharias (51:44):
I mean, my first hope is that, you know,
each person would buy 500 copiesand give them out to their
friends. I mean, that wouldreally help our Yeah. I mean,
certainly we hope that peoplewill have an increasing
appreciation of the diversity ofthe Body of Christ, given that
we have, you know, intentionallyfocused on our places, our
(52:05):
countries, Turtle Island, theplace where we belong. We really
hope that indigenous readerswill feel empowered to know that
there's beauty and truth andwisdom in their traditions that
come from creator and can enrichtheir lives, and that they don't
see an internal conflict betweentheir devotion to Christ and the
(52:31):
reality of them being Choctaw,them being Lakota, them being
Cree, them being whatever nationthey belong to, because that is
so often been the gospel. Again,as Richard twist used to say,
We've only heard the gospel asbad news. It's like, yeah, Jesus
loves you, except for everyother part of you. And and we
(52:54):
want to say, no, actually, Godcreated you that way, and
there's beautiful assets to whoyou are, and for non Indigenous
readers, Chris, what about ournon Indigenous readers?
Chris Hoklotubbe (53:05):
I hope that they would take this book and
see this book is for them, thatany thing that's good, true and
beautiful may have its ownexpression, and that's that's
local to is kind of sociallocation, but, but that if it's
good and wonderful, it's fortheir Betterment too, and that
(53:27):
they might be enriched from it.
So, you know, we've even seen,if you look at the back of the
book, you know, some of ourendorsers like, oh, this book
wasn't for me, but I still learnfrom it, like I get the
rhetorical turn of that phrase.
Because in many ways, I one ofmy biggest hope is that, as
Danny said, that an indigenousperson would read this book and
feel like I could do this too.
My hope is that this isn't thelast book on this topic, that
(53:49):
there's even more words, right?
Like we just scratched thesurface. We hope for more of
this, and I do, but I do want tosay like, and this book is for
you. This book isn't aboutbashing Euro Americans. This
book isn't about like listinggrievances. This book is really
(54:09):
grounded in an asset basedapproach that says that, you
know, our way forward of havinglife at its best together is by
telling these stories of of thegoodness and the joy and the
beauty that's out there, notjust for indigenous flourishing,
but for all our all ourflourishing.
Joshua Johnson (54:28):
That's wonderful. Well, reading the
Bible on Turtle Island will beavailable anywhere books are
sold. You go and get that. It'san excellent book, and I really
thank you for writing this. Ithink it's a perspective that is
missing and we need. And so thishas been fantastic. Is there
anywhere that you would like topoint people to? How could they
(54:49):
connect with what you're doing?
Danny Zacharias (54:51):
We are both connected with Nate's. Chris has
mentioned that we mentioned alot in the book. And so you can
learn more about nates@nates.comand. Like I said, I'm dedicated
divinity college. If you want toknow more about me, that's the
main halls that I haunt. And Iwould also say, you know, if, if
this continues to spark readersand are desiring more, certainly
(55:14):
minor footnotes. But there'salso a journal that comes out of
the annual Nate symposium thatwe both contributed to. I'm one
of the current editors, and sothere's lots of ways to connect
and continue to learn well.
Joshua Johnson (55:27):
Danny and Chris, thank you for this conversation.
Thank you for bringing us intowhat does it look like to read
the Bible on Turtle Island. AndI really enjoyed our
conversation. I think a lot ofpeople get some good things out
of it, and the book isfantastic, and I think that
people, everybody needs to readit. So it's not just for one
person or one group of people,but it's for all of us, so that
(55:51):
we could actually see that theBible was an indigenous book
written by indigenous peoplethat was informed by the land,
their connection with it, andtheir connection to creation and
and all of us, and so I reallyenjoyed it. So thank you so
much.
Danny Zacharias (56:08):
Thank you so much. Thank you, yes, yeah,
thank you. You you.
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