Ep. 364 Justin Giboney - Conviction and Compassion that Lead Us Out of the Culture War - Shifting Culture

Episode Transcript
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Justin Giboney (00:00):
In the culture war, we see good versus evil,

(00:03):
and it's never that simple. Withhumanity, there's never this
irredeemable arch enemy that'sresponsible for all the wrongs
that have been done for you toyou. And you're never purely
innocent, and you can becorrupted just like they have
been if you're not already youJosh.

Joshua Johnson (00:33):
Hello and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create and the impact we canmake. We long to see the body of
Christ. Look like Jesus. I'myour host. Joshua Johnson, you
know, the culture wars havedivided us, turning neighbors
into enemies and reducing publiclife to a zero sum game. But
Justin giboney believes there'sa better way forward when rooted

(00:53):
in moral imagination, truth andgrace. As co founder of the and
campaign and author of Don't letnobody turn you around. Justin
calls Christians to carry thecross into culture and politics
with conviction and compassion,refusing to let partisanship
define their discipleship. Inour conversation, we explore how
the civil rights generationmodel courage without hatred,

(01:16):
what it means to see both thesin in ourselves and the image
of God in our opponents, and howto move from Blind certainty to
humble conviction. This episodeis an invitation to recover a
faithful public witness to tradeoutrage for understanding
powerful persuasion and theculture war for the way of
Jesus. So join us. Here is myconversation with Justin

(01:38):
giboney. Justin, welcome toshifting culture. Excited to
have you on. Thanks for joiningme. Thanks, Joshua, glad to be
here. Don't let nobody turn youaround this book. Where did that
phrase come from? For you? Whatare you trying to say in this
book?

It comes from an old spiritual, an old spiritual.
And basically I'm saying we asChristians are given direction.
We're given standards, we'regiven convictions. And
oftentimes, as we engage in thepublic square, we allow other
things to get us off track, toturn us around from where our

(02:13):
destination should be,especially the culture war. I
think, in so many ways, with thecoat, with the church as a
whole, we've allowed the culturewar to turn us around, to take
us away from what Christiansshould be doing and how we
should be doing it.

So is politics the problem, or is it something
else? What do you think is theproblem for our lack of
engagement and letting things,the culture wars, turn us
around?

Well, I think the problem is us to some
extent, right, the culturepolitics, they become, they can
become distractions, but reallyit's upon us to make sure that
we're staying in the word anddoing things in a way that is
constructive and that speakswell of who we serve and what we
believe.

If something is constructive, let's give an
example. You start your bookwith the story of Richard H Kane
during reconstruction as anexample for us, what does it
look like in the public squareto have some some courage in the
midst of what is happening. Canyou just give us that story for
us as an example to get usstarted?

Yeah, Robert H Kane was a representative during
Reconstruction. And so this isright after slavery had ended,
and you had a lot of AfricanAmerican, especially pastors,
who actually becamerepresentatives and could run
for office and could vote. Andso he really stepped up. Because

(03:38):
even after slavery, you stillhad a lot of racialized
violence. You know, I talkedabout the Hamburg Massacre, and
so somebody had to step in andkind of represent a group of
people who had never beenrepresented before, because
there were still a lot ofproblems that needed to be
addressed. And he did so withcompassion and conviction. I
think he did so without reallycaring about partisanship, but

(03:59):
trying to get at what was rightat a time where his life could
be on the line for doing so, I

think that's important. It's compassion, it's
conviction, a lot of times. Sowe personally, if I'm there, I
I'm kind of worried about whatpeople are going to think about
me if I have a tribal camp, andif I'm going to actually speak
my mind or the truth that Ithink is what Jesus is calling
me to. And how do we embody theways of Jesus? What do we do

(04:26):
with some of the fear of manwhen it comes to engaging in the
public square? How do we startto shed some of that and speak
truth?

Well, we have to refocus on what's important.
Every Christian is asked to beartheir cross. Jesus says, Whoever
will try to save their life willlose it. And so if our main
thing in the public square isself preservation or moving our
interest forward, then we'regoing to miss the mark. We're
not going to be in the publicsquare who God has called us to
be. And so we know that whenwe're in a public square. What

(05:00):
does it look like to befaithful? It looks like caring
about orphans and widows. Itlooks like, you know, not being
corrupted by many of the thingsthat are going on in the world,
whether it be immorality orinjustice. And so once we stay
in the Word, and thankfully, wehave great examples. This book
is full of great examples ofChristians actually did do it

(05:20):
right, and I know for me, that'swhat helps keep me on course. I
wish I could say I do itperfectly. I don't, but
certainly that civil rightsgeneration, that generation
before them, even when inreconstruction, as I read their
testimonies, as I read how theyengaged in times that were worse
than today, I know we thinktoday is bad, and it is, but
they were in times that wereworse, and found a way to be

(05:42):
faithful that, to me, isinspiring and something that
every Christian should know andbe thinking about in this
moment,

as you go around and speaking with the and
campaign, and you're in publicdiscourse, and you're trying to
actually hold some differentpositions and say, what does it
look like to bear the cross inThe middle of of this, and get
rid of some of this polarizationthat we have. What, what's going
on, like, what are you seeingout there is this discourse

(06:10):
something? Have you seen peoplebeing more inflamed lately, and
the you know, this year, than inprevious years? Or what's going
on?

Yeah, I would say within the last few years,
things have gotten even moremore polarized, especially when
it comes to race and issues likethat. Part of the reason has to
do with social media and ouralgorithms and what they feed
us. I mean, people need to taketime and really look at what
their algorithm is giving tothem and find ways to break out

(06:40):
of their algorithm, because youralgorithm is not going to give
you the best of every argument.
It's going to give you whatyou've been asking for and what
you've been clicking on, whichisn't always what you need to be
fed. So we really have to take aserious look at that. And then
general, just the kind ofconflict entrepreneurs who have
made an industry based on thisdivision and polarization, and I
see too many Christians going tothese people for their

(07:03):
information, not understandingthat their whole job is to keep
you enraged. Their whole job isto feed you the worst
representations on the otherside and to make sure that if
there's anything that seemsredemptive about the other side,
they immediately negate it. Takea step back and look at who
those people are in youralgorithm that you follow, and
you may need to think twiceabout what your intake should

(07:26):
be, because that's what'sforming your opinions.

What would you say to people that want to
engage in the public square butthey're afraid right now, I've
interviewed people when we'retalking about justice and being
out in the streets and saying,Hey, maybe some of us need to be
at home doing some some of thebehind the scenes work, because,
you know, we can't be out inpublic at the moment, it's a

(07:51):
scary time. What does it looklike for a community to stand
up, and not just individuals, toactually bear the cross in
public school?

The first thing is we have to be informed. And
so what we can't do is just hearsomething on the street or
listen to a few things on socialmedia and run with it. I have
said, and I said this on mypodcast earlier this week, we
have to have a more rigorousstandard for the information
that we depend on and form ouropinions based on. And so I need

(08:20):
to sit maybe in a group, youknow, maybe we do this
collectively, and really digthrough what's going on. I need
to know what my neighbors aresaying, but I need to try to get
to the truth. Instead of justtaking the information that
automatically aligns with mynarrative. There's a lot of that
going on once you are actuallyinformed, right? Once you have
deliberately done that, duediligence then, I mean, you

(08:42):
never act, is never in aconstitutional republic, acting
alone just isn't effective. Ithink at that point you have to
try to organize or get with agroup that's like minded and has
not only the right objective,but the right spirit to what
they're doing, and I talkedabout that in my work, and then
find ways to inform otherpeople, and if necessary, to

(09:07):
push back on the power sourcesthat are kind of carrying out
this injustice. And that takestime, and I know we don't always
have a whole lot of time, but wedo have to be very deliberate
and thoughtful about how we doit, because what ends up
happening if we go out there andthe spirit of our cause isn't
right, or we don't have ourinformation right, we end up

(09:27):
doing a disservice to the issuethat we care about. If we go out
there and have a public tempertantrum or say things that
aren't true, then we end uphurting the people that we're
saying that we want to help, andI see so much of that right now.
Again, if we go back to conflictentrepreneurs, they are
purposefully putting out falseinformation, and by the time it

(09:49):
gets corrected, we've alreadyacted on it. We don't even hear
the correction, because we're soquick to jump and get involved.
There's a process to this. Andmy book. Talks a lot about the
process that many civil rightsleaders went through before they
engaged. So for instance, theSouthern Christian Leadership
Conference had a four stepprocess before they engaged. One

(10:13):
of those things they had to dowas self purification to make
sure I'm ready to engage in aconstructive way, and that is so
important at this time. So youhave to be prepared. We live in
a society where it seems likeimmediately jumping into
something is necessary and showsthat you're authentic and
passionate, when, as I saidbefore, it actually can be

(10:34):
counterproductive.

Then help us slow down and get the truth,
especially in this day and agewhere you have, you know
information, you're bombardedwith information. What does it
look like to actually find whatis really going on when there
are seemingly opposing places,giving me opposing information,

(10:56):
telling me two different things,three different things, four
different things, we don'tactually know. How do we sift
through it, and how do we startto discern what the truth is?
Right now?

No, it's tough.
I mean, it's very tough, and itstarts with, as you said, not
just having one source. Ifyou're in a city and you've been
there for a while, I'm hopingyou developed a source that's
maybe leaning more, a little bitmore left, a source that may
lean more right, that you trust,and it's a problem if you have
no sources that you necessarilydisagree with but trust to be

(11:29):
honest, because whether you'reon the right or the left, there
are people on the other side,not everybody. There are people
on the other side that you maydisagree with, but that are
working with intellectualhonesty. It's up to us to find
those sources, and if we don'tfind those sources, I think
that's more of a commentary onus than it is on the other side,
they're there. And if you, ifyou've allowed people to make

(11:52):
you believe that allconservatives are dishonest or
all progressives are dishonest,you're wrong, and I think you've
fallen into this culture wardynamic, you have to find
multiple sources, and that stuffyou want to do before something
crazy happens, find thesesources so you can get the full
story and then move from there.

One of the things that you talk about in
your book, you're right about inyour book, is we're not just
looking for like a moderatecentrism, where it's mushy, you
don't actually take a stand, butyou're bearing your cross. In
the middle is just talk a littlebit about what you have seen,
both on the problems ofconservative thinking and

(12:34):
progressive thinking at themoment, and what what you're
actually looking at when itcomes to a different way than
these two camps.

Yeah. So one of the things I do, basically what
this book is saying, is, howwould the civil rights
generation react to this momentin the culture war? How would
they react to it? And so indoing that, I give a critique of
both conservatism andprogressivism. But within that
critique, I also say thatthere's nothing inherently

(13:05):
virtuous about middle groundeither, right? Like, I'm not
saying just find the middleground and you're right. There's
nothing virtuous about that,because sometimes that just
means you're taking the path ofthe least resistance, or you're
trying to avoid the smoke. Andthat's not there's nothing
necessarily good about that.
However, when you have two sidesthat are this radically
different in this extreme,oftentimes, the answer might be
somewhere in between thoseextremes, right? But, but that's

(13:27):
not that's not just what you'relooking for. So in my critique
of conservatism, I talk a lotabout how you know,
conservatives have to face thefact that they got that their
ideology got slavery and theCivil Rights Movement wrong.
Now, there may be some very goodthings about conservatism, but

(13:48):
has conservatism fixed whateverglitch it has that caused it to
miss those major moments thatshould cause humility to
somebody who's conservative.
Say, man, I do loveconservative. I believe in it.
Something was was missing, thatwe missed these moments. It's, I

(14:09):
think it's incumbent upon everyconservative to find out what
that was, in my opinion, part ofthat, what that was, was just a
lack of compassion, was arefusal to put themselves in
other people's shoes and toconsider others before
themselves. There was alovelessness in this. And you

(14:29):
can look at, you know, in onepart person I talk about, you
know, how these public lynchingsand how you had people watching
other people get lynched andmaking it a family affair,
right? There's something wrongwith an ideology that would
allow that. Now, does that meanit's all bad? No, but
conservatism was made with humanhands, and therefore it's not

(14:51):
all good. Then I get toprogressivism, and I have a very
serious critique ofprogressivism too, because I
believe progressivism is biggestissue. Shoe is an inability to
deal with individual sin, aninability to deal with some
facts of life that don't goalong with what they want to
believe or how they feel inside.
And therefore what you have is asituation when I say, Hey, I

(15:14):
don't really like that truth. Idon't really like that fact of
life, therefore I don't changemyself. I try to push away the
fact of life or push away thetruth. I say this within
progressivism is a lack of moralknowledge. There are a lot of
progressives who are very highlyeducated, who are in high

(15:37):
positions, but I would say thatsometimes our grandmother, who
didn't have a whole lot ofeducation, had more moral
knowledge than they do. And partof the problem is we go to some
of these universities, and weget exposed to certain things
that are supposed to besophisticated within our
society, and we throw away ourmoral knowledge for something
that's less valuable. Nowideally we would want both. We

(16:01):
want empirical knowledge, wewant moral knowledge and all
those things. But I really dobelieve that, because
progressivism feels like truthcomes from individuals, which,
if we dig into that, that's nottruth at all, like if every
individual has their own truth,there is really no truth that
that binds us together becauseof that, it ends up in very
tough places where people justcan't deal with reality, and

(16:24):
that ends up hurting peopleright, whether we're talking
about abortion, eugenics, youknow that came from
progressivism. Just becausethings are inconvenient, just
because things don't fit yourself perception, doesn't mean
they're wrong, and we've got tobe willing to be transformed,
rather than trying to ignoretruths that are inconvenient.

So what does it look like then to go if it's not
a, you know, middle centric typething, just because we want to
be middle, what does it looklike to bear our cross in the
middle of

it? Yeah, I think what it looks like is not
being so focused on being on theright side. Like some people
will say, just choose a side andyou got to go along with that
side. Well, okay. Well, what ifmy side gets six out of 10
things right? Those other fourthings, I'm just gonna go along
with them. I'm just gonna say,cool. You know, that's okay.

(17:19):
That's crit for Christians.
That's not an option. And sowhat, what I've been trying to
do, and what I think peoplewould learn from the civil
rights generation, and that thatgospel ethic is that it's not
about taking a side, it's abouttaking the right position, which
may take more time, which youcan't automatically assume who's
right or wrong. You've got tolook at the compassion of

(17:40):
Christ. You got to look at theconvictions. You got to look at
justice and truth and say, Whereshould I be in this moment? And
it might be different than bothsides. I mean, I give some
examples on how both sides havebeen wrong on a number of things
throughout history. And so for aChristian who's just choosing a
side, you're going to be wrongeither way, right? I can ask you
a question, as they did withJesus, with two wrong answers.

(18:03):
Do I have to accept one of thosetwo wrong answers? Because those
are only the only two sidespresented. Of course not. And
Christians need to make surethat they see this differently
and do what Jesus did, which isreframe the

question, what do you think that then made the
civil rights generation theirthe black church tradition. What
did you think made their fusionof faith and justice so
distinctive for us today?

I think the biggest thing, and I give four
different things that kind ofwere unique about this ethic,
perhaps the biggest one is theway that they saw themselves and
the way that they saw theirneighbors. So in the culture
war, we're basically taught thatthe other side is purely evil
and irredeemable, thateverything they do is to deceive

(18:52):
harm or somehow, you know, trickus. Nothing they do really has a
good objective. They didn't lookat things that way. Number one,
they always saw their opponentseven as as wicked as they they
might be. They always saw theiropponents as redeemable, and
they always tried to speak them,to them in a way that would

(19:14):
bring about that redemption, notin hatred, not in vitriol, but
to say, I expect more of you.
There's a better standard foryou to hit. That's the that's
one thing. But here's the otherkey. They never saw themselves
as purely good either. They knewthat if they reacted to the in
the wrong way, to the oppressionthat they were experiencing,

(19:34):
then they too could be exactlywhat their opponents were being.
And that's so big because we inthe culture war, we see good
versus evil, and it's never thatsimple. With humanity. There's
never this irredeemable archenemy that's responsible for all
the wrongs that have been donefor you to you. And you're never

(19:56):
purely innocent and you. Becorrupted, just like they have
been if you're not already. Andso they had this, these
disciplines of self examinationand understanding. Hey, even in
the songs they sang, Lord, Ineed you to keep me from being
the hatred that I'm seeing,right? And that's, I think

(20:18):
that's the main thing thatdistinguished them from other
movements and a lot of movementstoday, especially secular
activism, they saw the sin inthemselves and the redeemability
in their opponents.

Give me a couple of steps that they did for self
examination, because I think ifwe're going about it the wrong
way and we're we're actuallyjust throwing a temper tantrum
in the middle and not findingthe truth. What is self
examination? What are somepractices for us so that we can
do that work?

Well, let's start, start with the theology.
Right In Luke we read about thepraying Pharisee. And the
praying Pharisee looks at thetax collector, the Publican, and
says, Thank God I'm not likehim. And who's exalted, the tax
collector probably wasn't a goodperson in society, but realized

(21:12):
it and repented and knew heneeded a Savior, whereas the
other one thought he goteverything right. I don't want
to be that tax collector. Idon't want to be Jonah and not
wanting to go to Nineveh. Sothat's the first we have to
understand. We all need asavior. We are just as liable to
be corrupted as anybody else.
And we can look in our life andsee the things that other people

(21:35):
have done to us, but we shouldalso be able to see that the
injury, the injuries that wecause to ourselves. If we're
being honest and looking withclear eyes, we're gonna see
that. And so some of the thingsthat I tell people to do is a
practice that I think has beenhelpful, is to name 10 things
that your side has gotten wrong,either recently or historically.

(21:57):
If you can't do that, you'reindoctrinated. And you need to,
you need to pray and fast andkind of ask, ask God for a clean
heart and clear eyes. Becausewe've all, regardless of a side
we're on, we've all had thingsthat have gone wrong, terribly
wrong. Number two, understandthe virtues on the other side.

(22:18):
Now this doesn't mean you agreewith them, but there are
probably some principles thatthey have that are helpful. So
for instance, if I'm aprogressive, I should be able to
look at conservatives and say, Imay not agree with all their
policies on abortion, but thefact that they fight for the
sanctity of life is good forsociety. I should be able to

(22:39):
admit that if I'm aconservative, I should be able
to look at progressives and say,You know what? Inclusion, even
if I don't agree with dei orstuff like that. Inclusion as a
principle is important, becausesome of the worst moments in the
church when we was when wedidn't include that's the kind
of exercise that gets us. Numberone, humbles us, but also helps

(23:01):
us to realize maybe it's not allbad. Maybe they're doing some
terrible things right now, and Idon't have to act like that's
not happening, or act like Idon't have to fight back against
that. That's not what I'msaying. But I do have to realize
that when it comes to the humancondition, no one is
irredeemable, that there iscommon grace, and maybe I have
more grace for them when Iunderstand what they're

(23:23):
thinking, even if I disagree atsome point. So I found those
disciplines to be helpful inseeing ourselves differently and
also seeing our opponentsdifferently.

What a great practice to engage in. Hopefully
we get to engage in it multipletimes, and we go back to it over
and over. I think one of thethings that people are seeing
here, and you've talked about myside, is always right, meaning
we have blind certainty, like wewe don't see anything else, so
it's blind certainty. But youalso talk about conviction, like

(23:56):
we have to have both compassionand conviction in the same
thing. What's the differencethen between that certainty,
that blind certainty, and thenconviction in the public square.

So blind certainty, I think, is certainty
in all of our opinions to saythat we're always right.
Conviction is looking at theBible and saying, I have a I
have a confidence in what Godsaid is right and wrong. But I
know my application of thatmight not be perfect, right?

(24:26):
Because what the Bible does isit gives us a framework. It
gives us a framework by which toengage others, to engage our
neighbor, to engage society. Weshould have confidence within
that framework, in as far as wehave been diligent in reading
the Bible and that we're in theSpirit, we should be less
confident on our ability toapply it every day, which means

(24:48):
that we have to examineourselves and how we're applying
it. We can never say, Okay, Iunderstand the Bible. I
understand this framework. I gotit good. Let me go out and apply
it and not ever look at how it'sbeing. Apply now we should have
a little bit of concern that wemay get off course, that we may
be turned around, which again,causes us to examine ourselves,

(25:10):
causes us to continue to readthe Bible, causes us to talk to
our neighbors and the peoplethat we may not like, to see how
our public witness actuallylooks to others and the impacts
that it's having. So that's thedifference. We want to have
confidence God. We should befully persuaded in the things
God says. I don't believe in thegospel of uncertainty. We can't

(25:31):
be certain about anything, bythe way, the people that say
that are pretty certain aboutjustice and the things they want
to be certain about. But weshould be certain about what God
says we should be humble aboutour about our ability to apply
it in a way that does justice towho we serve and our neighbors.
So

then, what does moral imagination look like? You
talk different stories of moralimagination. So we have these
convictions. We know what is,you know, this framework. We
say, okay, God's spoken. This isactually the justice that we
need today. What does it looklike for moral imagination to
take place?

So just so people know, moral imagination
is the ability not just to seewhat has been, what's going on
right now or what's likely tobe. Moral imagination in a very
tough moment is the ability tosee what ought to be based on
God's promises and based onChristian faith. Moral
imagination is what allows usnot to be arrested by the

(26:32):
moment. Moral imagination iswhat allows me to look at
somebody who hates me and stillsee human dignity. It's seeing
beyond the moment based on myfaith and what God has promised
me and what should be inhumanity, moral imagination is
also my ability to say, hey,this command that God gave me

(26:53):
not to do this with my body ornot to do that to my neighbor,
it hurts right now, and I can'treally understand why it's
helpful, but it is because Godsaid that it is right, and so in
a moment like we're in today,you know, with assassinations,
political viral violence, allthe divisions to me, moral
imagination is the ability tosay, I'm not just going to do

(27:16):
what's in my immediate selfinterest. I'm not going to do
I'm not just going to believewhat aligns with my narrative.
I'm actually going to look outfor people who might not look
out for me. I'm going toadvocate if somebody says, you
know, I voted for the Democrat,but I'm actually going to
advocate for the Trump lovingareas in rural America that

(27:41):
hardly have any hospitals. Maybethey wouldn't do it for me. And
if I don't have any moralimagination, I'm like, why would
I help somebody that wouldn'thelp me? If I have more more
imagination, I say they'rehumans. They deserve to be
treated a certain way. Andwhether they would do it for me
or not, I have to do it, becausethat's how things ought to be,

(28:02):
and they'll never, they'll neverbe that way, if, if all of us
are always looking to ourinterest in what's immediately
best for us, and that's kind ofwhere moral imagination plays a
role.

It was so great for some people to have some
moral imagination in this momenttoday, because everybody seems
to be I'm here. I am more, youknow, for what I'm against than
what I am for what I'm standingfor. Everybody is evil. On one
side, no matter what side you'reon the other side is evil. We
have to have this moralimagination. I think one of the

(28:37):
things that you talk about isthat you say that we're in an
acts 19 type moment today in thechurch, instead of an Acts two
moment. And I think that'sthat's a big difference of like,
standing up for what you'reagainst, then standing up for
what you're for. Speak aboutthose two dichotomy of nine,
Acts 19, Acts two. Yeah.

So, so in Acts two, we know that we had all
things in common. And this isthe church coming together, the
Holy Spirit coming, you know,within us, and it brought us
together. We have all things incommon. We're working together,
common vision, common objective,moving forward, as God would ask
us to do, sharing all thosethings that were being done.
Acts 19 is a little bitdifferent. In Acts 19. You see

(29:22):
this? This is the riot inEphesus. So Paul had been going
around Ephesus basically, kindof messing up the idol making
industry, saying that Gods madeby human hands aren't Gods at
all. A guy named Demetrius,who's basically a conflict
entrepreneur, gathers some ofthe people in that trade
together and says, Hey, man,he's ruining our trade. We need
to go get him eventually, likethe whole city gets involved.

(29:46):
And the interesting thing aboutacts 19 is the Bible says, I
want to say it's like verse 32that when the riots going on,
that there was confusion. Somepeople were shouting something,
one thing, some were shoutinganother. Most of them did not
even. Know why they were there.
So you have this chaos whereneither side can articulate,
where a lot of people, I shouldsay, can't articulate why

(30:07):
they're even participating, yetthey want to kill Paul. Now
let's think about it. There's noway in the world that Paul was
responsible for all the pain andsuffering, or whatever their
issue was that they were mad atbut he became the target of
their angst, of their fear, of alifetime of disappointments and
all these other things. It wasaimed at him, and that's exactly

(30:30):
what we do today. I'm goingthrough something. I have a lot
of causes to what's going on.
Some of those causes are me, butI find that one target on the
other side and focus all andkind of purge all of my vitriol
on that one target, whether it'sa person, politician or
whatever, or whether it's anideological group, that's really

(30:52):
what we're doing. There'sconfusion. We're upset, but
we're not really clear on how weshould deal with it. There's
confusion, and we don't evenwe're reacting, but not even
with a good explanation of whywe're acting in this way. I

find that interesting, because in I think
that Paul is acting in a placein Acts 19, on what he is for.
It says afterwards, after,after, the mob came through.
They wanted to kill Paul. Themagistrate there basically said
that Paul has never spoken outagainst our goddess Artemis. He

(31:28):
basically just lifts Jesus up,so he's actually standing up
what he's for. And then whenmobs start to happen, it's
confusion, and there's confusioneverywhere. So even when people
are standing up for what they'refor and their convictions and,
you know, have compassion in themiddle of it, when the mob

(31:48):
comes, what does it look like toto to shift it back into a place
of standing for what you're for?
How do we clear the confusion,like clear the confusion out of
the moment that we're in now.

Well, somebody has to ask the mob the question,
because here's the problem withmobs, they don't do any self
examination. And so if a numberof people would have turned
around and say, Wait, what arewe rioting about? What is this
about? Who's responsible, andhow do we know they're
responsible, right? We justtalked about doing that due
diligence to make sure youactually know what's going on.

(32:24):
Christians have have to shine alight on the mob mentality, and
we have to get to the truth ofwhat's happening. Right? We have
to say, well, who? Who's thisguy who pulled off this
together? Can I have aconversation with him, like,
Why? Why are we all doing this?
Who exactly is Paul, and what ishe saying? And once we find out
all that, okay, where do Istand? What do I believe in? Now

(32:46):
I can address it in a way thatmight actually agree with some
of what Paul's doing, in a waythat might actually have to push
back against Demetrius, theleader of all this now that I
actually know what's going on.
But that takes time, and ittakes courage, because when
you're in the middle of a riot,for you to be the one to

(33:07):
question it and critique it is adangerous thing, and that's
where we find ourselves, ourtribes. The last thing they want
us to do is to shine a light onthem. That's what do they say?
That's, you know, self hate,that's disloyalty, that's
treason, all these other things,because they can't handle the
light, because the premises andconclusions that that they've

(33:29):
used to bring us into thisaren't necessarily true, and so
we have to be, we have to have,as we talked before, talked
about before, the courage toturn around in the midst of this
kind of acts 19 moment and askquestions and shine a light and
critique, even though that's areally tough thing to do, but I

(33:50):
think it's part of ofcrossbearing.

Speaking of crossbearing, you write,
Christians must carry the crossin culture and politics. Our
public witness is crossbearing,which makes it both an
obligation and a privilege. Ithink a lot of people say, hey,
Christians just don't getinvolved in politics. We're just
going to sit here in the church.
Why is it an obligation to becross bearing in politics and in

(34:13):
culture?

I mean, it's the it's part of the great
commandment. There's no way tolove your neighbor as yourself
and completely stay away fromanything that's political. It's
not the only way to do it. Butif I know that my neighbor is
being enslaved down the street,or I know my neighbor is being
manipulated and oppressed, andnow their children aren't

(34:39):
eating, I can feed them, but Ialso need to change the systems
that are causing the problems.
And so I never read anything inthe Bible that said there's
something so dirty and corruptthat God can't make it better.
And when people say we shouldn'ttouch politics, I almost say,
Are you questioning the power.

(35:00):
Of God. How do we engage ifwe're afraid to engage with the
things that are the most corruptand problematic? Now, I think
what they're saying to be to becharitable, is, yes, we
shouldn't be corrupted by it. Weshouldn't. We're still not, you
know, we're in the world, not ofthe world. And I would agree
with you on that we have to bevery careful, because there have
been Christians who've gotteninto politics and been used and

(35:22):
abused and and things of thatnature. So we have to be
careful. But I don't seeanywhere where the Bible says
Don't, don't touch that,especially when politics are
such a big part of our dailyinteractions. And the truth is,
in your attempt to not bepolitical, you're still actually
being political.

So then, as we engage in politics, how do we
not give into ideology and stickwith the cross and Jesus?

The first thing I tell people before they get
into anything political is youhave to know who you are. You
have to know who you are andwhat your values are. Otherwise,
when you get into politics,somebody else is going to tell
you who you are and what yourand what your values are. So you
have to have a certain level ofconfidence in who you are as a
Christian before you step intoit. And then you have to be

(36:16):
honest and know, I have to keepmy eyes open. I have to be a
critical thinker, because evenif I go to the Republican Party
or I go to the Democratic Party,everything they represent, since
they're made with human hands,just like those idols,
everything they represent, isnot going to be something that I
can go along with. And so I needto have a healthy skepticism of

(36:36):
some of the things they'rebringing to the table. I have to
be willing to push back, even ifit means that I might not get
that position or get that voteor be moved up to a higher
space, that's what I have to bewilling to do if I'm going to go
into the public square and befaithful

as you're going around and you're speaking and
you're doing things with the endcampaign. Are you finding any
hope in the culture? Are youseeing people taking a stand,
showing up with some moralimagination, or are we really at
a crossroads where we just, wereally need to get some people

(37:14):
to stand up to be able to havethat moral imagination?

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there's always
examples, if you look, you lookhard enough. I think some of the
things that Memphis Mayor PaulYoung has done has really stood
up for what's right in toughsituations, and chosen not to be
partisan when it meant helpingthe people, helping his
constituents. And so, yeah, ifyou, if you look forward to

(37:39):
you'll see it is there. Enoughof it? Do I wish there were
more? Of course, we need morepeople, and we need more
everyday Christians speaking upand exemplifying what that looks
like. But it's not just gonnahappen. Each of us have to be
determined to have a publicwitness that glorifies God. I

don't know.
Maybe America isn't unique intheir political violence, but we
were founded on violence, and wehave violence. Is there
something that we can do todayto turn that violence around, to
stop the cycles of violence thatare happening in our country

(38:17):
since the beginning?

I think the first thing we have to do is be
very clear that when it doeshappen, whether it's on our side
or the other side, that it'sabsolutely unacceptable. And
that's one thing that I didn'tunfortunately see. You know,
with the assassination, somepeople were talking about a lot
of other things, instead of in apoint blank manner saying, this
cannot happen. I don't care whathis opinion was. I don't care

(38:43):
how he offended me and mycommunity. This can never
happen, period. Let some peoplemarinate on that and then get
into right other conversations.
That's the first thing we haveto do. And then we just have to
educate people on Look, you'rethat only makes things worse. It
doesn't help anything. You'renever going to get rid of all of

(39:04):
your political opponents, and ifyou did, somehow, you'd be a
monster. So understand thatwe're going to have to find a
way to live together, and thatyou're just going to have to
step up your game when it comesto persuading people who don't
agree with you. That's whatdemocracy is about. That's what
civic pluralism is about. Theydon't have to agree with you.
They don't have to think you'resmart or beautiful or any of

(39:26):
that stuff. You need to persuadethem the best you can to do the
right thing. And we begin tothink that we're so right on
certain issues that we shouldn'thave to persuade anybody.
Everybody should just agree withus. No, but they don't. And so
what you see Martin Luther Kingdoing what you see Dorothy Day
doing what you see Fannie LouHamer doing is persuading people
who disagree with them of whatis right, not trying to force,

(39:52):
not trying to use the governmentto force them to do basic stuff
that you know they want to do.
No. Persuade the most people sothat we can have justice right,
not so we can agree oneverything and you can just
think I'm a great person andcompliment all my cultural
idiosyncrasies, but so that wecan make sure that government is

(40:13):
serving its purpose, that itsorder is bringing order, and
that it's bringing justice. Inbetween all of that, we have to
persuade one another, but that'sharder than just having temper
tantrums. That's harder thanjust barking at the other side.
It means you have to be artful.
It means you have to bethoughtful. It means you have to
hear other people out so thatyou know where they're coming
from. And that seems to be toobig a price to pay for a lot of

(40:36):
people out there today. You

know, I was, I had an interview with somebody,
we're talking about justice, andsaid that only in America people
ask, what is justice? The churcharound the world knows justice,
and they're they pursue justice.
Why do you think Americans inparticular have a hang up on the
word justice and what it is.

Well, I think the thing about justice which is
different than charity. So a lotof people that do charity well,
don't do justice well. And partof the issue is that with
charity, you give as much as youwant to give, and then you can
stop right? Charity doesn'tnecessarily have to hurt you. In
the same way, justice is eithergiven completely or not given at

(41:25):
all, and justice forces aconflict with self interest. And
so a lot of people who you hearthat have a problem with justice
in the social context, socialjustice is because they don't
want to give what justicedemands of them, because that
would, that would take too muchfrom them. Justice is really,
really comes from the imago day.
It comes from, you know, theimage of God, and understanding

(41:46):
that since we all have humandignity, we have to be treated
to a certain standard. And thatstandard may get in the way of
somebody's financial interest.
That standard may get in the wayof somebody's identity, national
identity narrative, but it'swhat people deserve. And to deny

(42:08):
that, I think, is really to denyone of the things that the Bible
talks about the most. And so itis unfortunate, but there's a
lot of narratives and selfinterest that get in the way of
us doing what we're called do?

Do you have an example of somebody actually
seeing the humanity of the otherside, the image of God in
another person to bring aboutsome justice and change in our
culture? Sure.

I mean, there's tons of historical examples. I
mean, I just mentioned FannieLou Hamer. One of the stories
that I talk about in the book ishow she was kind of going around
in the 60s and trying todemystify the political process
to people who had never beenable to participate in it. And
she was pulled over by highwaypatrolman taken to, you know, in

(42:56):
jailed, and he had somebody beather until she almost died, just
because she was trying to helppeople, you know, learn how to
vote and the importance ofvoting. And years later, she's
asked, How do you feel? How doyou feel about that officer that
did that to you? And she said, Ifeel sorry for him, because he's
sick, and America's sick and itneeds a doctor. And basically,

(43:19):
Christians are that doctor. Whatshe did right there was, instead
of saying he's irredeemable andI hate him, she had compassion
for him, which opened up thedoor for her to actually love
him and feel and want him to beredeemed. What we do today is
somebody said something I don'tlike, or insensitive about my

(43:42):
community, or an issue I careabout. They're irredeemable. I
now have the right to hate themand to deny them any, you know,
any kind of help and all thatstuff that's a way to respond to
it. That's not a Christian wayto respond to it. And I hope
this book brings people really,what this book is about, in a

(44:02):
lot of ways, Joshua is, is, it'sproof of concept. So I can say
all this stuff about love, enemyand all this, and you know, how
we should, you know, see the sinin us and see the virtue in
others. I can say all that intheory. And it's like, okay,
that's Pollyanna ish, like,Yeah, okay. Or I can say, well,

(44:22):
guess what? I know it can happenbecause it has happened, and
when it happens, it's moreeffective than your temper
tantrums and your vitriol. Letme show you this example, and
that's really what the book isdoing, is saying, let me give
you a real life example of howthis happened and why the way
you're going about it is wrong,and there's a better way to do
it in practice.

So then, what is your hope for the for your
readers? People pick up thisbook and read it and find these
examples in your book,

my hope for the reader is that they see they
start to view Christian SocialEngagement differently, that
they. Community are willing toexamine themselves about how
they see their opponents and howthey see themselves. In no way
is this book telling us not totenaciously fight against

(45:11):
immorality or injustice, andnone of these examples I gave
Did someone say, Well, I loveyou, therefore I'm let you hurt
other people. That's not what itis. But I still need to make
sure that my heart is pure, thatI don't become evil in my fight
against evil. And so I'm hopingthat people will look at these
examples and say, there is abetter way to go about this. The

(45:34):
culture war is ultimatelywhether I win it or whether I
lose it, gonna damage otherpeople and damage my spirit. So
I have to go about it anotherway, and thank God that he's
given us an example not thatlong ago of how to actually do
it.

Justin, I have a couple quick questions here at
the end. This has been afantastic conversation, but one,
if you could go back to your 21year old self, what advice would
you give?

Ooh, I would have told my 21 year old self
that you need to stay in theword, that just because you're
in this environment that saysthat the Word of God is expired,
that's not true. And the peoplethat taught you that probably,
you know, the people who taughtyou about the word probably have
more moral knowledge than thepeople who are telling you that

(46:19):
it's worthless.

That's good.
Scott, anything you've beenreading or watching lately you
could recommend.

Oh, yeah. So Ross douthats book, think it's
called belief, or believe is areally good book, especially for
people who are in academicspaces or, you know, spaces like
that, and trying to evangelizefolks that just don't believe in
God and have a very post modernview of of the world. So that's

(46:48):
a really good one. Yeah,

it's great book.
It's good just as this book,Don't let nobody turn you
around. Will be available inNovember anywhere books are
sold. I love this book. I thinkit's really important today in
our culture war and the momentthat we're in, this is one of
the books that you need peopleto read to get an imagination
for what has happened, to findthose stories, to be able to

(47:12):
stand in a place withconviction, to bear the cross in
the middle of culture here, toactually have not just
orthodoxy, which you talk about,but orthopraxy, you're actually
merging the truth and practicein a way that we can engage in
culture. I love this book, and Ithink it's really important, so

(47:33):
I really want people to go andread it. How can people get the
book and then Is there anywhereyou'd like to point people to?
How can they connect with you?

Yeah. So as far as getting the book, you can go
to Amazon, Don't let nobody turnyou around. And you can buy that
online now. You can pre orderthat right now. And for me, you
can listen to the churchpolitics podcast, which we do an
episode once a week. You can goon an Instagram and follow me at
Justin e gibbony, and same thingon x.

Justin, thank you for this conversation. I
think it's really helpful for alot of people. Hopefully people
actually take it in their heartsand actually live into a new,
new way, a way that looks likeJesus. We can embody Jesus in
culture, in the ways of of God,so that we could see a better
world and we get rid of theseculture wars. It was fantastic.

(48:26):
I loved our conversation. Sothank you very much. Amen.

Thank you.
Thanks for having me. You

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Ep. 364 Justin Giboney - Conviction and Compassion that Lead Us Out of the Culture War

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 364 Justin Giboney - Conviction and Compassion that Lead Us Out of the Culture War