October 9, 2022 • 63 mins
Angie has been cheated on. Kristy has done the cheating. Inspired by the recent events in the Try Guys, we chat about our own experiences with infidelity including physical cheating, emotional cheating, micro-cheating, work crushes, and how to move on.
“You're not a cheater, [...] you had cheated. But you’re not a cheater. It's not a identity thing, it's an action thing.” - Angie Yu
Resources & Mentions:
- What Is an Emotional Affair? (Article)
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The best way to support this show is by listening and sharing with a friend. If you would like to buy a coffee or bubble tea, we would love that too.
----
Instagram @shitwedonttellmom
Email: shitwedonttellmom@gmail.com
Send us an audio message by clicking here!
----
We use Buzzsprout as our host because they seamlessly link to major podcast platforms and make it really easy to read analytics. They also have an awesome support team. Sign up today and get a $20 Amazon gift card!
We also use Descript as our editing software because editing with text is much easier than with soundwaves. We are not audio geniuses and want to focus our energy on creating content rather than editing. Sign up today and get your first 3 months free!
Yes these are affiliate links because we like them and we use them too.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Angie (00:00):
I did a lot of micro cheating in like university,
Kristy (00:04):
i, okay.
Officially, I count me, havinghad cheated twice.
So once was physically, and thenthe other time was emotionally.
But if we really wanna get downto the nitty gritty, I have
micro treated in all myrelationships.
Angie (00:45):
Well come back to another episode of Shit We Don't Tell
Mom, this is Angie,
Kristy (00:49):
And this is Kristy
Angie (00:50):
so first of all, we're currently in the same time zone.
Not even, we're
Kristy (00:54):
I know.
No, we're not in the same city.
We're technically two citiesaway from each other.
Angie (01:00):
But it's like a 20 minute drive.
So, but you know what, Itdoesn't feel like you're only 20
minutes away from me.
So that's, that's the, that'sthe weird part.
It still feels like Yeah, you'revery far away.
We'll save that for anotherepisode.
Today we're actually gonna betalking about infidelity
Kristy (01:17):
And we were inspired by what has
Angie (01:22):
transpired.
I knew you were gonna saytranspired.
Kristy (01:26):
because inspired That's why I hesitated.
I'm like, Fuck, now they rhyme,And that seems stupid.
But I said it anyways.
We were inspired by what hadtranspired with the try guys and
what happened with Ned Fulmerand and that situation.
So for Poop troops, I don't knowif y'all follow the try guys,
(01:47):
but I'm a big fan.
Angie, are you a big fan or wereyou a big fan
Angie (01:52):
I was, Yeah, I think I was.
And then I stopped watching themand now I'm watching them again.
So this whole thing, scandal,whatever you wanna call it, this
whole event has brought me backto them.
Because I really respect howthey've taken or how they've
pro, pro progressed with this,
Kristy (02:12):
how they've handled the situation?
Angie (02:15):
Yes.
so I used to watch them whenthey were on buzz feed, and then
I stopped kind.
I kind of stopped watching theirvideos for a bit.
and then I, I knew that they hadstarted their own company, blah,
blah.
I was always like watching fromafar, Like I didn't actually
watch their stuff, but Ifollowed Eugene on Instagram.
Kristy (02:31):
I, and I would say I'm a closer follower.
I bought their books.
I like watched all of, all ofKeith's try the menu series.
I'm like, Yeah, I'm, I wouldn'tsay I'm a, huge fan.
Like I don't follow everything.
There's, I have on and offmoments, but I, I have
definitely kept up, it soundslike, with more of their
(02:54):
material.
yeah.
So when the news broke out, thatwas fucking very disappointing.
Angie (03:01):
Was that your first reaction?
Like were you shocked?
Kristy (03:05):
I was shocked, like disappointed leash.
So just because of, you know,what Ned's or Ned's character
embodies and it's just like, Ohmy God, come on.
You know, like, come on.
So for the Poop troops who mightnot be as familiar, the try
guys, they are these four, fourdudes who had met on Buzz Feed,
(03:29):
almost said Buzz Sprout,
Angie (03:33):
You know, you're a podcaster when.
Kristy (03:37):
So they side note Buzzsprout is our hosting
platform for our podcast.
so yeah, they worked together onBuzzfeed.
They formed this group calledTry Guys.
It, it became a hit.
So then they left Buzzfeed andthey started their own.
Company and YouTube channel andthey have been very, very
successful.
And amongst the four guys, theykind of have their own brand, I
(04:01):
suppose, character, personality,
Angie (04:04):
Yeah, Brand and
Kristy (04:05):
Yeah.
All all of that.
Yeah.
And and Ned Ned's persona slashpersonal brand is that he is
like the Dody husband.
Angie (04:17):
Yeah.
Devoting husband and father.
Well, people say he's a wifeguy.
the term that I've been seeingover all over Reddit and
Instagram is wife guy.
And they're like, Oh, nevertrust a wife guy.
And that's exactly why I was inshocked.
So, because I hadn't beenfollowing them for a while, my
coworker was like, in our likegeneral like shit talking group
(04:40):
chat she was like, Oh, doesanybody hear follow the try
guys.
Ned Fulmer just got kicked outbecause he was having an affair,
and I was like, Oh, she, I'mlike, the first thing I said was
not surprised.
Kristy (04:53):
Really
Angie (04:54):
Yes.
And it's because I haveexperience, personal experience
with like dating someone whoseentire personality was a doting
boyfriend and who elevated his,elevated his standing, his
social standing, becauseeveryone believed him to be this
like, super devoted, doting,thoughtful, sensitive guy,
(05:19):
because that all he talked aboutwas how good of a boyfriend he
was.
You know what I mean?
So this is like a, it's like athing.
Wife, guys and girlfriend guys,like it's a thing.
So a lot of the comments werelike, Oh, like I knew it was a,
I knew it was suspicious.
Or like, Oh yeah, I totally sawit as a red flag.
Any guy who, any guy or girl whomakes their entire persona their
(05:43):
significant other, it's alwayskind of like a sign of
overcompensating.
Kristy (05:47):
Wow.
I did not make the connectionbetween your experience and I
mean, it makes so much sense nowthat you're saying it.
I was completely shocked becauseI, I full on believed him and
Sure.
Like I get that a lot of thesepersonas, it is part of their
job, right?
(06:08):
Like, they can't just be thatlike, but that's the, that's the
branding that they choose toshow on the internet.
So I get that there's some sortof, Exaggeration or
dramatization behind each of thetrack guys' personas but I, I
genuinely believed that they areall who they portrayed
(06:29):
themselves to be.
And then you just like dial itup a notch, you know, for
entertainment purposes.
Angie (06:35):
I think that too.
I don't think it being a wifeguy or the fact that he cheated
says that he doesn zt or didn'tlove his wife and kids.
Like, it's not like mutuallyexclusive.
I think it's just like, it'smore like it's a sign of
insecurity.
Kristy (06:52):
Yeah.
Like overcompensating, like yousaid.
And it, and it just makes somuch sense, you know, like it
makes so much sense when you,when you say it from that
perspective.
And I feel like a fool for.
Trusting for being like, Yes,Ariel, she's.
Angie (07:14):
Yeah.
And, and well, the thing islike, she is really cool and
that's why everyone was like,Yeah, okay.
He, he's just very like, vocalabout it and it's, if she was
like very not amazing, thenpeople would be like, Okay,
something's up.
You know what I mean?
Like it was believable.
and I don't think he was like ahundred percent faking, I think.
Yeah, like you said, it's justdialed up a little bit, maybe
(07:37):
because he felt like hisidentity was slipping away by
being that wife guy.
Maybe he was trying to dosomething to regain his own
identity.
And because of that, people havedifferent ways of manifesting to
try to reclaim their ownidentity.
But he just chose a very, verypoor way to do it.
Kristy (07:57):
Yeah, I mean, like, we won't know why and we can't just
like, sit around and makeassumptions about why people
choose to do what they do like,but infidelity in of itself.
Angie has a, has experience witha version of that and, and so do
I.
(08:18):
So let's talk about infidelityas a thing.
Okay.
So infidelity.
should we define in, ininfidelity?
Angie (08:29):
I, We must just,
Kristy (08:37):
M glad I so much joy to your.
poop troops.
Angie is currently having bothher arms, like on her hips and
breathing.
Angie (08:51):
know.
I was like, I didn't wanna get astitch.
Oh boy.
Okay.
How do we wanna approach this?
Okay,
Kristy (08:58):
Yeah.
Angie, this is, this is like aserious, serious topic here.
Angie (09:03):
Maybe that's why we're, That's why I'm laughing, cuz I'm
overcompensating.
Kristy (09:08):
Ooh.
Angie (09:08):
I'm uncomfortable on the topic, but No, let's get into
it.
So like if you, you and I or anyof the poop trips, like if you
type into Google, why do peoplecheat?
At least for me, I don't, Idon't know how, I think Google
like produces different resultsmost of the time.
But most of the results arearticles from pages like
(09:29):
Psychology Today or like verywell mind, like websites that
are very much dedicated intoproviding resources for things
that are related to psychology.
So it's interesting because I'mpretty sure when I was younger
or maybe when you were, wheneven when we were teens, if you
Googled why do people cheat orYeah.
(09:50):
Googled, why do people cheat?
What you would get is likemagazine articles like from
Cosmo or from 17, but I was justvery taken back.
I guess I haven't really Googledwhy do people cheat that much
before?
So when I, when I Googled it andit was all these articles done
by doctors of psychology, I waslike, Oh, okay.
(10:13):
So it is like a very wellaccepted notion, not notion, a
well accepted idea or theorythat cheating is psychological
Kristy (10:23):
Before we get into that, how would you define cheating?
Angie (10:28):
Oh man.
Kristy (10:29):
Cause I feel like everybody has a different, It's
kind of like those baseballbases, Like what is first base,
second base, third base.
I feel like people have kind ofdifferent definitions of what
that means.
I find it the same.
When we talk about cheating,people might have different
definitions of what cheating,what constitutes as cheating.
So in your books, whatconstitutes as cheat?
Angie (10:52):
So I've read books about this after, I was cheated on, so
I'm gonna turn the question onyou and ask what your definition
of cheating is, and then I'lltell you what mine is.
Kristy (11:04):
That makes me uncomfortable.
Angie (11:07):
care.
Kristy (11:10):
Okay, So, okay, Angie has experience being cheated on.
I have experienced being theperson who cheated It makes me
very uncomfortable to definecheating because as a person who
had.
Cheated, my definition is gonnabe very self protecting.
Angie (11:36):
That's okay.
Would it?
So we wanna encourage, I wasgonna say, would it make you
more comfortable if I sharedfirst, but our whole.
The whole notion of our podcastis making the uncomfortable,
comfortable, so,
Kristy (11:51):
Okay.
Okay, So how about this?
Okay, so I have a definition forwhen I was engaging the cheating
act, and then I have adefinition for like now, right
now.
Okay.
So I used to define cheating assomething very physical and
depending on.
(12:14):
The situation.
Usually I would defend, Defend,I would.
Wow, that's, Is that like aFreudian slip right there?
I'm trying to defend myself.
Okay.
So I would define cheating aslike, having sex with someone
that you weren't dating.
So if you held hands withsomeone or if you kissed
(12:35):
somebody else.
And that doesn't really count ascheating.
And it, it means, so I once hadthe definition of to cheat means
you go all the way physicallywith another person.
Angie (12:46):
Gotcha.
Kristy (12:48):
We'll leave it at that for now.
Angie (12:49):
And what about now?
Kristy (12:51):
Now I define cheating as, Whew, this is really tough.
Feel like it's hard withouthaving context of, you know,
Angie (13:01):
Yes.
Okay, so that's exactly myanswer.
What is cheating?
It depends.
So before, before I got cheatedon, my definition was that if
you go all the way and have sexwith someone you're not dating,
that's cheating.
So we used to have the exactsame definition, and now my
(13:24):
answer is, well, it depends.
And a lot of that came from thefact that I tried to understand
exactly what cheating was.
And in my research and analysis,obviously I came to the terms
that, okay, it depends and ifyou Google infidelity, a lot of
those was very interest.
(13:45):
If you Google infidelity, thefirst thing that comes up is the
Wikipedia definition, and itsays that infidelity is a
violation of a couple'semotional and or sexual
exclusivity that commonlyresults in feelings of anger,
sexuality, and rivalry.
What constitutes as infidelitydepends on expectations within
(14:08):
the relationships, and I thinkthat's why I was like, Yeah,
that's exactly what it is.
Kristy (14:14):
I actually really like that.
It depends on the expectationwithin the relationship because
every relationship is differentand we all, you know, we would
have different expectationswithin each bubble of our
relationship.
And see, this is why you need tocommunicate because we can't
expect the other person to havethe same expectations you do.
But I digress.
Angie (14:32):
Yeah, so, So there you have it.
We actually have the exact samedefinition, past and present.
Isn't that interesting?
Kristy (14:40):
that is, that is really interesting.
Angie (14:42):
Okay.
Now I have something reallyinteresting to ask.
Kristy (14:45):
Okay.
Okay.
Angie (14:47):
You said that you have cheated on somebody, but you
said that while when that hadhappened, your definition was
that cheating only includes ifyou went all the way to have sex
with somebody.
So, So
Kristy (15:00):
What's your question,
Angie (15:02):
what did you do?
Did you have
Kristy (15:04):
I cheated.
Angie (15:05):
else?
Kristy (15:06):
Correct.
Angie (15:07):
Oh, okay, Gotcha.
Because there have been momentswhere I had done something that
probably would not have made my,the person I was dating at the
time, very happy, so I never hadsex with another person while
dating someone.
But I have had, I don't seethat's the, It's hard.
(15:28):
It's hard to, like, I have hadlike intense flirting with other
people to the point where Iforget that I have a boyfriend
where people become shocked thatI have a boyfriend.
And I have thought about this,like as I got older, like, Oh,
does that constitute ascheating?
But then my defense is like,well, at the time, to me, that's
(15:48):
not cheating Because mydefinition was like, This isn't
cheating.
So my, my expectation was, it'snot cheating
Kristy (15:59):
But what was your partner's expectation?
Angie (16:02):
Well, I don't know.
We never had a conversationabout it.
This was like my first realboyfriend.
Kristy (16:08):
So this episode already makes me super uncomfortable
because one, I, I don't think Ihave ever really, it only a
small, very, very small, small,small, small group of people
know that I have cheated onsomeone.
And, and I feel like thisepisode is gonna make me look
(16:29):
real bad, Not just because ofthe cheating, but because I
flirt all the fucking timeregard.
Like in any single relationshipthat I have been in, I, I, I am
can be very flirtatious and.
Sometimes, man, there have beentimes when I would purposely not
(16:56):
make it known that I am datingsomeone.
Yeah,
Angie (17:00):
Thank you for sharing that.
I think that's really brave thatyou're saying that out loud
because it would be reallydifficult to do that.
Kristy (17:11):
thanks.
Angie (17:12):
right now?
What are you thinking?
Kristy (17:14):
Well, I obviously I'm uncomfortable, like my fingers
are pretty clammy,
Angie (17:20):
Hm.
Kristy (17:21):
and, Okay.
So I'm uncomfortable for a fewreasons.
the main one is the person thatI cheated on, I don't know if
they know that they werecheated.
So I hope they never listened tothis podcast.
Angie (17:35):
Yeah, but you, you've dated how many people, like, who
Kristy (17:37):
who knows?
Angie (17:39):
Yeah.
Kristy (17:40):
I've
Angie (17:46):
didn't mean that way.
Also happened a while ago.
Didn't it happened when you wereyounger?
Kristy (17:55):
Yes.
Well, I mean all my exeshappened when I was younger.
Okay.
So, okay, so
Angie (18:02):
Okay, let's come
Kristy (18:03):
So, so that's me, That's me defining like, you know, if
we were ever to play a game,never have I ever have, never
have you ever cheated?
I will, I will like drink tothat the thing.
For the longest time, I alwaysjust associated my infidelity
with that time, that physicalcheating, that I had sex with
someone else while I was datinganother person.
(18:25):
Now, as I got older and moremature, I have come to realize
that I have cheated in otherways as well, and that I have
emotionally cheated on people.
And that may or may not haveeven been worse than the
physical cheating.
(18:46):
And I didn't used to considerthat cheating because it didn't
fall into that black and whitedefinition of you have sex with
somebody else.
So what I have done emotionallydid not count as cheating.
But now, I am accepting thatactually, Kristy, you have been
unfaithful multiple times andsome of these incidents includes
(19:12):
emotionally cheating on anotherperson,
Angie (19:15):
What's emotional?
Kristy (19:17):
having romantic feelings for somebody else while you are
dating another person andwanting to pursue those romantic
feelings.
Angie (19:27):
in my book.
That's not emotional cheating.
Kristy (19:30):
Oh,
Angie (19:31):
book, in my book, emotional cheating is basically
having an affair with someoneelse except there's no physical
aspects to it.
So you talk to them late atnight, you tell them things you
don't tell your partner likeit's more than just you having a
crush on somebody.
To me, that's what emotionalcheating is.
(19:53):
In my past relationships, I'vedefinitely had crushes on
someone else while dating.
And I have also questionedmyself whether or not that's
emotional cheating.
And I have read many articlesabout what emotional cheating
is, and my conclusion was it'sonly emotional cheating if it
becomes some sort of a, it'slike an established relationship
(20:16):
like the other person knows orsomething like that.
But I completely understandwhere you're coming from because
I still feel guilty about havinghad those feelings, having had
romantic feelings for otherpeople.
Kristy (20:28):
Okay, so.
I don't count crushes.
Angie (20:31):
Okay,
Kristy (20:32):
I guess it depends on like how deep that crush is.
Angie (20:34):
Yeah, exactly.
I'm like, well now everything islike
Kristy (20:38):
it all depends on context.
Angie (20:40):
there.
It's, everything's a spectrum.
Kristy (20:43):
I would say.
oh man, I don't know anymorethis, this episode's making me
question everything.
I, I had one dated someone, andit was a serious relationship.
And then I also had a work crushwhile dating this person.
And it was like, to me it was aharmless, like it's a work
(21:07):
crush, you know, like nothing'sgonna come out of this.
Like, it's not like I'm gonnadump my boyfriend and just like,
go with this work colleague.
in fact, like I have told theperson I was dating at the time,
like, Hey, so and so is my workcrush, you know, And I don't
like, I feel like that's, likean innocent type thing, you
know?
(21:27):
It's, it's, I guess it
Angie (21:29):
It, it works like you can't help
Kristy (21:31):
There's innocent flirting.
Yeah, there's innocent flirting.
You can't help it.
There's work crushes.
That's okay.
Like you're not, you're notactually gonna leave the other
person, you know, the partnerthat you're, you're with.
And then there's like, Oh, Ireally like this person and I
wanna have a relationship withthem and I'm gonna go on.
Air quotes, I'm doing air quotesright now.
(21:51):
Everybody hangouts, I'm gonnahang out with them.
And it's just the two of ushanging out knowing that you
have mutually strong feelingsfor each other and there may or
may not be lying involved.
You know, like I feel like thatis part of emotional cheating.
Angie (22:12):
Okay.
Yes, that I.
in my books.
That would also be emotionalcheating.
So in my various readings, Icame across this new, new, what
is that about?
New fangled term called microcheating.
Kristy (22:27):
oh my gosh.
All these
Angie (22:29):
know,but it was, it was like, term that was described
by, like a psychologist thatdoes couple counseling.
So I figure that they, know alot more
Kristy (22:42):
Okay, so what's micro?
What's micro cheating?
Angie (22:45):
micro cheating is small acts of crossing boundaries that
you shouldn't cross.
Like hanging out with someonewithout the explicit yeah, or
like going to happy hour afterwork, just so you can be like
hanging out with the coworker.
I think one on one, if you're,if you're really going one on
one, you're both kind of awareof the feelings then that it
(23:07):
might.
In my opinion would be actuallyemotional cheating.
But if you're like, you're like,Oh, like coworkers are going a
happy hour.
You don't normally go, but thistime you wanna go because he's
gonna be there and you wanna bethere too.
That would be considered microcheating.
Like doing these little acts,that is still a violation of
trust because now you're actingupon your feelings.
(23:32):
And these, even though thatitself might not be something
that would hurt somebody likemicro cheating, essentially is
doing something that the actionmight not hurt the person you're
with, but it kind of is goingdown a path of where it's going
towards something
Kristy (23:50):
It's like gateway cheating.
Angie (23:51):
Yeah, like gateway
Kristy (23:53):
It's like gateway drugs.
Angie (23:55):
my
Kristy (23:57):
You.
Angie (24:04):
So, okay, so this next day you, you know, you're gonna
be full on cheating and you'regonna be addicted, and I mean,
addiction and cheating, there'sa lot of overlap as well, but
that's a completely differentconversation.
so this article, which I willshare in the show notes, of
course, so this was a clinicalpsychologist named Sabrina
(24:27):
Romanoff.
So her differentiation is, inmicro cheating, you might engage
in behaviors like liking theirsocial media post we're
repeating repeatedly, visitingtheir profile that don't
necessarily require rereciprocity.
Like it doesn't require theother person to reciprocate.
it doesn't also requireemotional connection.
(24:49):
So maybe that's not gatewaycheating.
So that's like very minor.
And then I think, and then herdefinition for emotional affair
is that it involves moreemotional investment and then
there's involvement from bothparties like you and the
affaire.
And then gateway cheating issomething we just came up with.
So you know, hashtag TM gateway.
(25:11):
TM gateway cheating TM 2022.
Kristy (25:15):
have you engaged in my crew cheating before?
Angie (25:18):
Yes.
No hesitation.
Kristy (25:20):
Would you like to talk about it?
Angie (25:21):
actually I've engaged in gateway cheating before
Kristy (25:24):
Okay.
What's gateway Even though wejust made up the word, let's
define.
Okay.
Angie (25:29):
That example I just gave you was exactly what I did.
Yeah.
So in one of my relation longterm relationships, I also had a
work crush and.
I got along with him very well.
we obviously you spend moretime, This was like before
Covid, so you go into the officeevery day.
So we're spending like eighthours, 40 hours a week of your
(25:52):
waking hours, with, with thisperson.
And like, he sat right next tome and then later on he sat
right behind me.
And we would always get coffeetogether, maybe get breakfast
together, get lunch together.
sometimes the two of us,sometimes there's three of us,
four of us.
but I, I never went to happyhours because I didn't like the
rest of the team.
He was also just like a freshbreath, a breath of fresh air,
(26:15):
because I didn't like my tea
Kristy (26:20):
I'm glad that's, that's right there.
Angie (26:25):
I mean, I wouldn't know.
It's not like we had never didanything physical.
Kristy (26:29):
Okay.
If someone doesn't have freshbreath, you don't have to do
anything physical to know if.
Angie (26:36):
That's true.
Oh man.
But yes, he was a breath offresh air because I really
didn't like anybody on my team.
And when he joined I was like,Oh my God, somebody I actually
like connect with, but likeconnected almost too good And
then I definitely developedfeelings for him.
I thought about what it would belike if I had left my current
(26:56):
partner and dated him.
It seemed like the feelings weremutual, but it was never
explicitly communicated,obviously.
and then it got to the pointwhere like if he was away for
the day, our boss would be like,Hey, where is blank?
And I'm like, I don't know.
Like they expected that.
They're like, Oh, I thought youguys are friends.
(27:17):
I'm like, Oh, I guess we are Butno, I don't know where he is.
I.
The only thing, the thing isthat, the thing is like I never
really thought about what I didas horrible because I never hung
out with him outside of worksituations.
So I had never crossed thatboundary.
we had never crossed thatboundary and I don't think he
(27:39):
would've let us, knowing that Ihad a boyfriend.
But I had seriously consideredif I should have pursued that
opportunity instead,
Kristy (27:54):
And what made you make the decision to not pursue.
Angie (27:59):
because I was like, Well, I know my partner better.
I've known him longer what Iknow about this person.
I only know they're good.
I don't know.
They're bad.
I don't live with.
I don't know what they're likeon a bad day.
I don't know what they're likeon an actual date.
I don't know what kind ofboyfriend they're gonna be like.
So I had logically convincedmyself to not pursue it because
(28:25):
there were so many unknowns.
Of course, in hindsight, I'mlike, okay, that probably meant
that there was something in myrelationship that was lacking
that I wasn't getting.
And now, and then when I didthink about it in hindsight,
like after the relationship hadended, I was like, Oh, it was
mental stimulation.
Like I had never really mentallyconnected.
(28:47):
Well, at least it felt like thatmental stimulation was fading
because, And also likeadmiration and respect was
fading as well.
So, but I had a lot ofadmiration and respect for my
colleague and he, he was reallyfunny, very intelligent.
And we, yeah, we connected onlike mentally.
I even remember, like, this wasfunny because there was one
(29:10):
other coworker who I love, buthe was like almost never there
cuz he was kind of like, I don'tknow what the word is, all over
the place.
and he was like, for a period oftime he was my work bestie.
but not in like a husband kindof way like this other guy was
that.
So the guy, I had actually aromantic feelings for people
called him my work husband.
(29:31):
Let's call him Jay.
Let's call him Jay.
Yeah.
so Jay was, Yeah, so, so a, adifferent colleague had pointed
out like, I don't understand whyyou're attracted to Jay.
He is nothing like yourboyfriend.
I don't see anything in commonbetween the two of them, except
(29:51):
that they're both British and,that's the funny thing is like,
how did he like, It was such aweird, like when he brought that
up, I was like really takenaback.
Like what?
I've never told him that I hadfeelings for Jay.
Like how does he know?
But apparently it was obvious.
So I guess in hindsight, wouldthat be emotional cheating?
(30:14):
I don't know.
I still don't really know.
Kristy (30:17):
I, I don't know, and I don't feel like I am, I am the
right person to answer that.
Angie (30:23):
Maybe not so much an emotional fair as an emotional
slang,
Kristy (30:27):
Mm.
Angie (30:29):
but yeah.
So what had made me decided notto pursue it?
Just, I don't know.
I think I'm just risk averse, Ididn't wanna like abandon
something that was like a surething for something that I
didn't Ohio would turn out.
Which is funny because I endedup being cheated on like in a
way worse method, than that.
(30:51):
But at the time when this.
Romantic feelings had developedfor somebody else.
where from where I was sitting,it was like, okay, well it's
probably just a word crush.
probably doesn't mean anything.
But sometimes I still thinkabout him, not like, Oh, I need
to go pursue him.
But like, oh, like I had done,like I was naive and I didn't
(31:15):
really know what my feelingswere.
Kristy (31:17):
When you say like you think of behind you, do you mean
like, Oh, like I wonder how he'sdoing
Angie (31:22):
Yeah.
Sometimes I'll be like, Oh, Iwonder how he's doing.
But I think most of the timeit's like, like, how did that
happen?
Like, what exactly happened?
And like, cuz I never reallydelve deep into exactly what
happened or how.
I don't know.
(31:42):
I think, I don't really know howto describe it because it's not
like if you have an actualrelationship to somebody, it
starts and it ends.
So when you have like a crush onsomebody or when you have
feelings for somebody, whetheror not you're in a relationship
already or not, then it's likewishy washy.
(32:04):
So sometimes, sometimes I'mlike, Oh, maybe he is like the
one that got away, except I knowhe isn't because we have nothing
in common of work.
So
Kristy (32:15):
Okay, so I have a few things to say here.
I think it's totally, I thinkit's, I think it's totally
natural for you to think aboutlike, oh, like, like randomly, I
wonder how he's doing because hesounded like an important person
in your life.
Regardless if we call itemotional cheating or not.
Like you saw this person everyday at work.
You clearly had a very goodrelationship with them.
Angie (32:38):
Mm-hmm.
Kristy (32:39):
Romance aside or not, it was still like a, an established
relationship.
And I think when you have anestablished relationship with
anybody and then they disappearfrom your life.
They'll pop into your mind fromtime to time and, and you'll
wonder about them and you hopeyou know they're doing well,
kind of a thing.
So I think that's just super,like just a human thing to do.
Angie (33:01):
That's true.
Cuz even when those romanticfeelings subsided, I would still
be like, Oh, like it's, I, likeI miss talking to him.
Or like, if we bumped into eachother in the row, we'd be like,
Hi.
Like, we like hug each other.
And he would do the Europeankiss on the cheek thing, which
didn't help at the time, but youknow, it is what it is.
Kristy (33:24):
have you ever thought of other people who might have been
the one that got away?
Angie (33:29):
No, have you?
Kristy (33:31):
No,
Angie (33:32):
I don't actually think he was the one that got away.
I just mean like, you know howsometimes people think about,
Oh, the one that got away,Except that, that's not how I
view him.
That's just,
Kristy (33:42):
or like, maybe like it's more like, Oh, what if
Angie (33:45):
Yeah.
It's more like a, what if, Ithink the ones where people feel
like they have, they seesomebody as the one that got
away is essentially they feelsome sort of regret or they're
clinging too hard on history onthe past.
That's what I would feel like.
Okay.
This is like super interesting,but we're also kind of getting
(34:05):
away from the topic ofinfidelity.
But you're the one that'sediting, so up to you how you
wanna work this in.
Kristy (34:12):
I, I, I wanna go with where the conversation
naturally.
Is there somewhere you wanna goor is there, is there a place of
curiosity that you would like tovisit with this topic?
Don't feel bordered by ouroriginal, topic.
Angie (34:27):
So there's nobody that you had ever felt like the one
that got away
Kristy (34:32):
I think every single person that I've dated did, was
meant to be there in my life atthat time.
And whether or not I brokesomeone's heart or if they broke
my heart, it was just all meantto be.
And it's all gonna sound like, Idon't know, woo, woo stuff, but
I, I just feel like, like it washow the universe had intended.
(34:57):
And I just hope all the best forfor them.
And I don't think I would feellike, Oh, what if things turned
out differently or blah, blah,blah.
Angie (35:07):
Yeah.
No, I, I, I think I'm on thesame wavelength as you.
I definitely have moments whereit's like, Oh, I wonder what
would've happened if.
Blah, blah, blah.
Like, what if I did leave my, myrelationship and pursue this
colleague?
Like what would've happened?
Like what if, kind of thing.
But it's not like I see him aslike, it's not like I actually
(35:29):
see him as the one that gotaway.
I think that term is very loadedbecause it kind of comes from
like movies and TV and it'salways about like the main
characters and it reallyidealizes a relationship or a
person
Kristy (35:49):
I mean, it makes it seem like there's like the one in the
world, and that's not somethingthat I, I believe in.
And, and I wanna clarify likethe phrase, the one who got
away.
I see it as a very differentphrase as what if I had gone out
with this person?
Like, I see that as totallydifferent things.
(36:10):
So the one that got away is justnot something that I identify
with is not, it's not a phrasethat I get.
I mean, I get, but like, Idon't, I don't, get, you know,
or I don't believe Yeah.
Unless, unless, unless less.
We're talking about Mr.
Lobster, but you know, we don'tknow.
Who knows, Right?
That's in the future.
(36:30):
And that's really close to meright now.
So obviously I have a verybiased and, you know, like I
have sunglasses on kind of athing.
now the phrase what if the, whatif phrase that's different
because that I don't carewhether or not the relationship
worked out or not.
I, you know, it's to me how Idefine a what if phrase would
(36:53):
be, I wonder, would've been liketo have pursued, I wonder
would've been like to date thatperson without thinking like,
Oh, that's my forever person.
Angie (37:02):
Yes.
Kristy (37:02):
Cuz it may or may not have worked out, but I was, I
would've just been curious toknow what it'd been like to date
that person.
And that's the phrase that I'mtrying to say.
I haven't felt.
Don't think, or at least, Idon't know.
I mean, it's not something Ithought about before.
And I think the difference hereis because I actually did end up
(37:23):
dating my work crush.
I, I did do the what ifTherefore I don't There is no
what if question.
Yeah.
Because I walk through thatdoor, I to choose your own
adventure book.
I flip to that page.
Angie (37:40):
So you were more brave than I am.
And, how did that work out?
The what if, were you happy thatyou made the decision?
Were you happy that you madethat decision?
Kristy (37:49):
Yes.
But it, it also, thatrelationship made me realize
that, oh, I had emotionallycheated on the person that I was
with originally.
And That wasn't something that Ihad realized before because I
still stuck to my originaldefinition of what cheating
meant was that, oh, I didn't, Ididn't have anything physical
(38:12):
with this person.
We didn't do anything quoteunquote wrong.
So we didn't cheat and we hadmade sure, my first relationship
or the, the person that I wasdating before, that our
relationship had ended before Ipursued anything with the other
person.
(38:33):
because I felt like I did allthose things, then it didn't
constitute us cheating untilyears later when I reflected.
I'm like, No, but that.
Just because I didn't physicallycheat and just because I quote
unquote checked all the boxesand made sure, you know, we had
broken up before I had gone outwith this other person and blah,
blah, blah.
(38:54):
You know, trying to, basicallytrying to like keep my hands
clean.
Like I, I did all these thingsto keep my hands clean, thinking
that my hands were clean, butreally I had, I had emotionally
cheated, so my hands were neverclean, even though I thought
they were.
Angie (39:08):
Hmm, that's very mature of you.
And that's kind of where I havesomewhat settled on my
colleague's situation from backthen as well is that I think I
did emotionally cheat.
It wasn't an emotional affairbecause it, there wasn't really
anything that was likereciprocated.
(39:28):
I think the feelings were therefor both of us, but it wasn't a
situation where like I wouldconfide in him or he would
confide in me cuz we had nevertaken those interactions outside
of work related items, workrelated situations.
But, I had acted certain actionsthat I had decided to make, that
(39:50):
I made the choice of doing, werein hopes that it would lead to
something.
So even though nothing hadactually happened and I didn't
actually pursue explicitly, Ihave put myself in situations
where I hoped something wouldhappen.
So for me, it's still kind oflike, I, like I, I, I think this
(40:10):
conversation's making me go,Yep, it was, but before this
conversation, I was kind oflike, it depends on the
definition, you know, Like I, itwas also kind of me trying to
like absolve myself of anyguilt.
but I, I even came clean when Ibroke up with my ex.
I was.
It was when I was berating himfor cheating and then I was
(40:32):
like, Yeah, like I had a crushon blah, blah, blah.
But I never acted upon it.
And he was like, I knew it.
I knew you did.
I was like, Oh, okay.
But at the time I was like, Idon't fucking care.
Like the fuck outta my life.
Right.
But in hindsight, you know,after having processed
everything in the last fewyears, it's like, okay.
(40:54):
And then having thisconversation where you're
talking about your experience,and you did end up going into a
relationship with that coworker.
I didn't.
But just because we didn't endup pursuing a relationship
doesn't mean that I didn'temotionally cheat.
Kristy (41:21):
You asked me if I, Okay, I'm, I'm paraphrasing.
Maybe you didn't ask me this,but how I had interpreted was
you asked me if I re like, did Iregret making that decision?
Was that a question that you hadasked me?
And just nodding.
So yes.
Okay.
and I initially said, No, Idon't regret making the decision
(41:43):
of dating my coworker.
what I do regret is,
Angie (41:48):
Hurting the other person.
Kristy (41:51):
Yes, We talked about how work crushes sometimes you just
can't help it.
It's proximity, It's, you know,there's just a lot of charming
people in the world.
Okay.
And a lot of times they'reinnocent and I think that's
okay.
It's, I think it's okay to havesome innocent crushes and
(42:13):
innocent flirting, but I thinkthere is a boundary and, not
just physical boundary, but anemotional boundary.
And I regret crossing thatemotional boundary before I had.
(42:36):
Not even like broken up with my,with the person I was dating,
but just, you know, respect,like make having a, a
respectable distance before Ieven decide to choose to date
colleague.
Am I making any sense?
Angie (42:55):
No, you're making sense.
Kristy (42:58):
And I think that's what I regret, is that everything was
too close, too muddled, and itcaused a lot of pain
Angie (43:06):
Hmm.
Kristy (43:07):
other person that I, I didn't fully appreciate until,
until later.
Angie (43:13):
Actually one of the drivers of why I made the
decision not to pursue, one ofthem was what I said was the
uncertainty.
The other one was I didn't wantto bring that kind of pain into
both the person I was dating andmyself, cuz it's pain for
everybody so that was a bigthing for me as well.
(43:36):
Do you?
Okay.
I don't know.
I don't know if I should askthis.
Well, why not?
I know, I know we don't wannadwell on the past, but if you
can go back in time, would youchange, I know that you would've
still decided to, date yourcoworker instead, move nine step
but day your coworker, period,But what do you think would,
(43:58):
like, how do you think, rephrasethat now with all the knowledge
and reflection and
Kristy (44:05):
all the
Angie (44:06):
the, all the wisdom you have gathered in the past, blah,
blah, blah, years.
if you were to go back, whatwould you do
Kristy (44:14):
I would keep the, I.
I would identify that these aretwo different relationships.
The person that I was stating atthe time, we were having a lot
of issues unrelated to mycoworker.
We were just having issueswithin our own re relationship.
(44:35):
you know, that thing that yousaid, you know, when, when
something is lacking and thenyou latch onto somebody else?
I, I would've want to not use mycoworker as,
Angie (44:48):
Has a life buoy.
Kristy (44:50):
as something to like patch the hole.
You know, I, I would want tohave seen these two people.
Very separately, like I would'vewanted to deal with the current
relationship that I was having,the troubled relationship deal
with.
That whether that be, I mean, Idon't think it was at a place
(45:10):
where we could fix it like weneeded to break up regardless if
the coworker existed or not.
It just so happened that theyexisted and it made things more
complicated.
So I wish I would have separatedthat more clearly, more
distinctly, and deal with theissues that I had with the
current person.
Let let that process mu over,give time for that and, and
(45:36):
grieve over that relationship.
Let the both of us grieve overthe end of that relationship
before I even indulge inthinking about starting another
relat.
Angie (45:47):
Yeah.
Kristy (45:48):
So I guess the main thing is if, if I had the chance
to go back and do itdifferently, I would separate
the two relationship and just bevery distinct about it.
And not even like care or letmyself, Yeah.
Indulge in what my colleague orthe potential relationship with
(46:08):
my colleague would be like, butfocus on the current
relationship that I alreadyhave.
And by focusing, I don't meanfixing, like properly breaking
up with this person and thenproperly having a grieving
process.
then before I even move on,
Angie (46:26):
That's really well said.
Kristy (46:29):
was it cuz it felt like I was just
Angie (46:33):
No, it was really
Kristy (46:33):
well?
Like I had fist bones in mymouth or something.
Angie (46:37):
To me, it was really well said because that's exactly what
I would do if I were to go backas well.
same thing, like it, to me itwas like, you're right, like the
coworker was just there.
but to me it wasn't like areminder that, hey, there's
problems in your relationship.
It was like, Oh, look, look atthis new shiny object now.
(46:58):
You don't have to be depressedabout something else that's
going on that's maybe botheringyou.
Um, yes, a distraction.
And, and that's, and I don'twanna reduce that person down to
just a distraction because Igenerally had feelings for them
and I respected them and Iadmired them.
But it was definitely likesomething to distract me from
(47:19):
the fact that there were actualfundamental problems with the
relationship that I was in.
And if I were to go back, Iwould do all those things,
except I don't even know if Icould do all those things,
because I don't know if I wouldbe strong enough to do that, to
(47:40):
pry myself out of arelationship, not knowing what's
gonna happen in the future.
It's scary.
And I think that's why Icouldn't do it.
I was like, Yeah, it, it wasjust too scary of a thought for
me.
Kristy (47:55):
I think it's a very scary thought for a lot of
people, and that's why so manypeople end up staying in
relationships that aren't greatfor them.
Angie (48:08):
Or they end up cheating because they don't know how to
get out of the currentrelationship and they sometimes
self sabotage to you know, andthen they take their mistress to
a Harry Styles concert hoping toget caught.
Kristy (48:26):
Okay.
I don't know that reference.
Angie (48:28):
Oh, Ned took, Alex to a Harry Styles concert and they
got recognized and then laterthey went to a club and made
out.
And that was when like a fantook a video of it and sent it
to Alex's fiance.
That's how the whole thing
Kristy (48:45):
I didn't know about the Harry Styles thing.
I, I mean, knew about the clubbecause that's the video.
Like that's, that's the JuicyJuice.
Okay, gotcha.
Angie (48:55):
So, yeah, so I, I would like to think that if I were to
go back to that exact same placethat I would do those things
that you had just said, I wouldlike to think that I could do
that, but knowing where I wasthen I definitely wouldn't have
been able to do it.
Kristy (49:13):
I mean, I say these things, but I don't, I don't
know if I could have
Angie (49:18):
But what you're doing right now is very brave.
Kristy (49:20):
what
Angie (49:20):
I find what you're doing right now with Mr.
Lobster more brave than drivingacross Western Canada.
Now they are both brave, okay?
Driving across Western Canadaand sleeping in your car and you
know, with the, with the riskthat some random dude's gonna
break your windows and kidnapyou, or some moose is gonna come
(49:42):
along and smash your windows totry to eat your clothes.
Like, those are all very scarythings.
And the fact that you did that,that's very brave.
But this must star lobstersthing that's even more brave in
my opinion.
Kristy (49:56):
Well, thank you.
I don't, I don't know what tosay.
Angie (49:59):
fyi, if you haven't already heard episode 45, that's
where, Kristy talks about whatshe learned from breaking up a
six year relationship.
So that's what I'm referencingwhen I say that.
what you did with Mr.
Lobster is super brave because Icould never do that.
Even now, I don't think I havethe, strength to do that.
Kristy (50:21):
Dang.
you.
Thanks.
I feel so seen and so, sorecognized and, and for the poop
tubes, who didn't know?
I, drove across Western Canadato come home from Toronto to
Vancouver, in case you, like,you probably understood the
reference by it now, but, that'swhat I've been doing in the last
(50:42):
four weeks.
Angie (50:43):
has it only been four weeks?
That feels longer,
Kristy (50:44):
Well, I mean, if you include Newfoundland, then it's
six weeks.
Angie (50:48):
Oh yeah, it did include Newfoundland, so it did, You
know, I'm just glad that youweren't, assaulted by any me
mooses, Muai.
That sounds, that sounds like a
Kristy (50:59):
Anyways, any anyways, so how do we feel about, about
cheating and infidelity now thatwe've had a conversation?
Angie (51:09):
now that we've had a conversation about it and now
that we have established that,you have cheated in the
traditional sense and emotionalsense, and I have cheated in the
emotional sense and I have beencheated on in the traditional
and emotional sense, where do Istand on the subject?
I think it's just such acomplicated topic, which is why
(51:33):
there is no right answer forwhat is cheating and why do
people cheat.
I think it's just.
depends on the relationship.
And I think going back to thatdefinition that I had first read
out loud from Wikipedia, thatit's all about expectations.
I think that's where it comesin.
How, how do I feel about it?
I feel like the healthiest thingto do would be to sit down with
(51:55):
your partner and talk about whateach of you would consider as
infidelity.
Now, whether or not that'ssomething I would actually be
able to do, I don't think sobecause it's, See, it's like so
awkward.
Like why are you asking that?
It's like asking, what the rulesof the games are so you can try
to find your way to bend therules and win a game.
But relationships aren't games.
Kristy (52:18):
well, well well, okay, so this is this.
This is what I think now.
I agree.
Everything comes down to contextand it, it all depends.
We can never understand whyanother person decided to cheat,
so we cannot make anyassumptions or frankly, any real
(52:43):
judgements on Ned Fulmer andAlex.
I don't remember her last name.
And because I think it's reallycomplicated, I'm not saying it's
the right thing to do, like I'mnot defending the actual
cheating, but I just think it isso complicated and it's
(53:05):
different in every relationship.
It's different between eachperson about why and what the
motivations are and et cetera.
I think a lot of times when wesee infidelity in the headlines,
and not even in the headlines,but when we hear about
infidelity, even within our ownsocial networks, we
automatically jump to judgment.
(53:27):
We automatically think that theperson,
Angie (53:32):
Is like an evil human being.
Kristy (53:34):
like we reduce the situation, we reduce the human
beings that are involved in thestory.
And I'm not defending.
Infidelity itself, but I'm justsaying it's important to be
mindful that it's a lot morecomplicated
Angie (53:54):
And it's a lot more nuance nuanced, like it's a lot
more nuanced than like bad good.
They cheat, they bad person,they not cheat, they good
person.
I'm sure there are lots ofhorrible people out there who
have never cheated, like serialkillers, but you know, one of
the things I wanted to alsopoint out is like, I think the
degree also changes things likethe degree, I think the part
(54:16):
where like, Not only are youbreaking somebody's trust, but
are you being duplicity?
Like are you, are you beingduplicity?
does your action impact otherpeople's lives negatively and
like the consequences?
And are you gaslighting people?
Are you lying to people?
Like, are you being a hypocrite?
I think those all play into howbad the situation is, so it's
(54:40):
not infidelity itself.
That's the whole story.
I think it's like you have tolook at the whole picture so
where I'm coming from is likethis whole situation with the
try guys.
The reason why it's so bad isbecause he has put the company
that they created in jeopardy.
It was, not only was it like a,an affair, like that's for
(55:03):
personal relationship.
It also broke the trust inprofessional terms.
And because they're like publicfigures, it, like, it damaged a
lot of people's trust.
Like even just onlookers, right?
Well, like, oh shit.
Like, like now, now I don'tbelieve in love anymore.
I know people joke about that,but it does impact people's view
(55:24):
on trust.
And in my, in my experience, abig part of why I was so
traumatized by my experience isthat there was so much gas
lighting in hypocrisy.
because I had tried to break upwith my partner, before I even
found out about the cheating,but he asked me to put faith in
the relationship.
(55:44):
So obviously I felt like afucking idiot after the fact,
right?
So it's like, I think that alsothat's where I, that's what I
mean when I say that it's verynuanced.
Like infidelity itself is not agood course of action.
But I don't reduce Kristy downto a bad person because she had
(56:04):
cheated on her ex-boyfriend.
I don't reduce somebody else Iknow who I know was the mistress
to a married man.
I don't reduce them down to,that and go act, because again,
depends on the whole picture.
Kristy (56:18):
You know what I love about this is, or this
conversation, I don't, I don'tlove infidelity, everything that
you're saying today on thisepisode comes from being the
person who has been cheated on.
And then everything that I'msaying consciously or
subconsciously is coming fromthe place of someone who has
done the cheating.
And even though we come fromlike 180.
(56:41):
Positions.
I feel like at the end of theday, we agree with everything
that we're saying.
Like, look for these things,look for the hypocrisy.
Are we, are you lying?
Are, is there lying involved?
I'm saying like, are you lying?
Because I'm coming from thecheater's perspective.
Like, if you think you are acheater, these are the things
of, these are the signs to lookout for.
(57:04):
And Angie is like, If you thinkyou're being cheated, these are
the signs to look out for.
And they're like the same, Youknow, like, are you being a
hypocrite?
Are you lying?
And earlier Angie was sayinghow, you know, like sit down
with your partner and definewhat infidelity is.
Define what cheating is.
(57:24):
But that's so awkward.
It's like trying to see how farcan I go?
Where do we draw the line so Ican like know where the
boundaries are.
But I think for me, even thoughI, at the time when I
emotionally cheated, I wastelling myself I wasn't doing
anything wrong I knew I wasdoing a bad thing.
Like I knew I was doingsomething that wasn't right and
(57:47):
it didn't feel right because Iwas sneaking around and I was
telling white lies, or I wouldbe telling the truth, but, but I
would make it seem like it's,well, it's not bent.
Like I would be straight upabout it.
I'd be like, Oh, I'm going outwith this person and it's just
gonna be the two of us.
You know?
Or I straight up be like, Yes,this is my work crush and we're
gonna hang out like I was.
(58:09):
And I felt like that was me.
Being a good communicator, beinghonest, but I made it sound like
it wasn't a big deal, when infact it was a big deal because I
would get very excited to seethis person, you know, I would
like think about what clothes Iwear and what makeup, or not
even what makeup, but like justput on some fucking makeup, you
know, and and I would feel,maybe it's guilt, but I would
(58:34):
not feel good about doing thosethings, even though I had told
my boyfriend at the time whatwas happening, thinking that
that was okay.
Thinking that that was me beinga good communicator, being an
honest person.
So at the end of the day, it'slike, you know, these are just
some of the checklists that bothAngie and I.
(58:55):
Felt, were relevant in oursituations.
The hypocrisy, the, the lying,maybe lying, the
overcompensation and the gutfeelings for me, because at the
end of the day, even though Iwas telling myself I wasn't
doing anything wrong, I stillfelt like I was
Angie (59:10):
I.
Kristy (59:11):
doing something right.
Angie (59:13):
Yeah.
And I think the, from the otherside as well, like I had all
these gut feelings thatsomething was wrong.
and when I would question theother person, this is where the
gas lighting came in, that I wasmade to feel like my gut
feelings were wrong.
And I don't know, I guess gutfeelings are a lot more
important than we think.
And I guess, you know, ifsomething feels wrong, it might
(59:35):
be a good time to have aconversation about it.
Kristy (59:37):
Yep.
Angie (59:38):
Like maybe even before you do anything.
Or if you realize that you wentto happy Hour solely because you
want to spend more time with acertain person that's not your
significant other, maybe youshould have a conversation with
your partner about your relat.
Kristy (01:00:02):
Okay.
That's all we got.
So anyways, that's, that's,that's me being a cheater,
Angie (01:00:12):
I wouldn't use that word to describe you, and I don't
think you should either.
You're not a cheater, but youhad cheated on.
Yeah.
not a cheater.
Kristy (01:00:22):
yes.
It's not a identity thing, it'san action thing.
Angie (01:00:25):
Yeah.
It's not an identity.
It is action thing.
It's also non-current.
Kristy (01:00:31):
Thank you,
Angie (01:00:32):
Oh my God.
There was one analogy that Iwas, that I forgot about that I
just remember.
Okay.
So in Chinese, when you saysomebody had cheated, you say
that they went off track, likeoff of the railroad track
Kristy (01:00:45):
Can you say it?
Angie (01:00:47):
So what I had rail was like, okay, when somebody goes
off track, do you blame thewheels, the track or the
scenery?
If you blame the scenery, thenyou're blaming like the mistress
or whatever.
but really what you should belooking at is the, either the
wheels, like either the trainitself or the train tracks.
because that causes a train togo off tracks.
(01:01:09):
Not the scenery,
Kristy (01:01:10):
I thought of the inductor.
Angie (01:01:11):
conductor.
Well,
Kristy (01:01:13):
The person or who's driving the train.
Angie (01:01:15):
this is like, you know, an electric train with no
driver.
So think of a sky train.
They also have a conductor, butyou know what I mean?
Okay.
You're, you're making thisanalogy.
You're ruining the analogy.
You are ruining the analogy.
But also like, obviouslymistresses are not just the
scene race.
Sometimes they are because theydon't know that you're in a
relationship.
but yeah.
Anyway, so the analogy doesn'talways apply.
(01:01:36):
What it's trying to say is focuson the two people in the
relationship, rather than juston something else.
Because then that'll always makeit harder and make you focus on
the wrong things.
And that was one of the advice Igot when trying to.
Process.
The cheating, the, the beingcheated on is don't focus on the
part where like the cheatinghappened, focus on what happened
(01:02:00):
that had led to the cheating sothat you can process the
downfalls of the relationshipand move on.
And I was like, Ah, yes, thetrain and the train track.
Kristy (01:02:09):
That is an excellent way to cap off today's episode.
Angie (01:02:13):
Thank you listeners for listening to this episode about
infidelity.
Until next time.
Kristy (01:02:19):
Bye.
Angie (01:02:20):
Bye.
(01:02:52):
It just sounds like you'repeeing
Kristy (01:02:55):
I know.
Angie (01:02:57):
It's not like you haven't peed during the recording
before, but this time you're,Yeah.
Um,
Kristy (01:03:03):
I was just concerned because of the noise.
Angie (01:03:06):
okay.
I did a lot of micro cheating in like university,
Kristy (00:04):
i, okay.
Officially, I count me, havinghad cheated twice.
So once was physically, and thenthe other time was emotionally.
But if we really wanna get downto the nitty gritty, I have
micro treated in all myrelationships.
Angie (00:45):
Well come back to another episode of Shit We Don't Tell
Mom, this is Angie,
Kristy (00:49):
And this is Kristy
Angie (00:50):
so first of all, we're currently in the same time zone.
Not even, we're
Kristy (00:54):
I know.
No, we're not in the same city.
We're technically two citiesaway from each other.
Angie (01:00):
But it's like a 20 minute drive.
So, but you know what, Itdoesn't feel like you're only 20
minutes away from me.
So that's, that's the, that'sthe weird part.
It still feels like Yeah, you'revery far away.
We'll save that for anotherepisode.
Today we're actually gonna betalking about infidelity
Kristy (01:17):
And we were inspired by what has
Angie (01:22):
transpired.
I knew you were gonna saytranspired.
Kristy (01:26):
because inspired That's why I hesitated.
I'm like, Fuck, now they rhyme,And that seems stupid.
But I said it anyways.
We were inspired by what hadtranspired with the try guys and
what happened with Ned Fulmerand and that situation.
So for Poop troops, I don't knowif y'all follow the try guys,
(01:47):
but I'm a big fan.
Angie, are you a big fan or wereyou a big fan
Angie (01:52):
I was, Yeah, I think I was.
And then I stopped watching themand now I'm watching them again.
So this whole thing, scandal,whatever you wanna call it, this
whole event has brought me backto them.
Because I really respect howthey've taken or how they've
pro, pro progressed with this,
Kristy (02:12):
how they've handled the situation?
Angie (02:15):
Yes.
so I used to watch them whenthey were on buzz feed, and then
I stopped kind.
I kind of stopped watching theirvideos for a bit.
and then I, I knew that they hadstarted their own company, blah,
blah.
I was always like watching fromafar, Like I didn't actually
watch their stuff, but Ifollowed Eugene on Instagram.
Kristy (02:31):
I, and I would say I'm a closer follower.
I bought their books.
I like watched all of, all ofKeith's try the menu series.
I'm like, Yeah, I'm, I wouldn'tsay I'm a, huge fan.
Like I don't follow everything.
There's, I have on and offmoments, but I, I have
definitely kept up, it soundslike, with more of their
(02:54):
material.
yeah.
So when the news broke out, thatwas fucking very disappointing.
Angie (03:01):
Was that your first reaction?
Like were you shocked?
Kristy (03:05):
I was shocked, like disappointed leash.
So just because of, you know,what Ned's or Ned's character
embodies and it's just like, Ohmy God, come on.
You know, like, come on.
So for the Poop troops who mightnot be as familiar, the try
guys, they are these four, fourdudes who had met on Buzz Feed,
(03:29):
almost said Buzz Sprout,
Angie (03:33):
You know, you're a podcaster when.
Kristy (03:37):
So they side note Buzzsprout is our hosting
platform for our podcast.
so yeah, they worked together onBuzzfeed.
They formed this group calledTry Guys.
It, it became a hit.
So then they left Buzzfeed andthey started their own.
Company and YouTube channel andthey have been very, very
successful.
And amongst the four guys, theykind of have their own brand, I
(04:01):
suppose, character, personality,
Angie (04:04):
Yeah, Brand and
Kristy (04:05):
Yeah.
All all of that.
Yeah.
And and Ned Ned's persona slashpersonal brand is that he is
like the Dody husband.
Angie (04:17):
Yeah.
Devoting husband and father.
Well, people say he's a wifeguy.
the term that I've been seeingover all over Reddit and
Instagram is wife guy.
And they're like, Oh, nevertrust a wife guy.
And that's exactly why I was inshocked.
So, because I hadn't beenfollowing them for a while, my
coworker was like, in our likegeneral like shit talking group
(04:40):
chat she was like, Oh, doesanybody hear follow the try
guys.
Ned Fulmer just got kicked outbecause he was having an affair,
and I was like, Oh, she, I'mlike, the first thing I said was
not surprised.
Kristy (04:53):
Really
Angie (04:54):
Yes.
And it's because I haveexperience, personal experience
with like dating someone whoseentire personality was a doting
boyfriend and who elevated his,elevated his standing, his
social standing, becauseeveryone believed him to be this
like, super devoted, doting,thoughtful, sensitive guy,
(05:19):
because that all he talked aboutwas how good of a boyfriend he
was.
You know what I mean?
So this is like a, it's like athing.
Wife, guys and girlfriend guys,like it's a thing.
So a lot of the comments werelike, Oh, like I knew it was a,
I knew it was suspicious.
Or like, Oh yeah, I totally sawit as a red flag.
Any guy who, any guy or girl whomakes their entire persona their
(05:43):
significant other, it's alwayskind of like a sign of
overcompensating.
Kristy (05:47):
Wow.
I did not make the connectionbetween your experience and I
mean, it makes so much sense nowthat you're saying it.
I was completely shocked becauseI, I full on believed him and
Sure.
Like I get that a lot of thesepersonas, it is part of their
job, right?
(06:08):
Like, they can't just be thatlike, but that's the, that's the
branding that they choose toshow on the internet.
So I get that there's some sortof, Exaggeration or
dramatization behind each of thetrack guys' personas but I, I
genuinely believed that they areall who they portrayed
(06:29):
themselves to be.
And then you just like dial itup a notch, you know, for
entertainment purposes.
Angie (06:35):
I think that too.
I don't think it being a wifeguy or the fact that he cheated
says that he doesn zt or didn'tlove his wife and kids.
Like, it's not like mutuallyexclusive.
I think it's just like, it'smore like it's a sign of
insecurity.
Kristy (06:52):
Yeah.
Like overcompensating, like yousaid.
And it, and it just makes somuch sense, you know, like it
makes so much sense when you,when you say it from that
perspective.
And I feel like a fool for.
Trusting for being like, Yes,Ariel, she's.
Angie (07:14):
Yeah.
And, and well, the thing islike, she is really cool and
that's why everyone was like,Yeah, okay.
He, he's just very like, vocalabout it and it's, if she was
like very not amazing, thenpeople would be like, Okay,
something's up.
You know what I mean?
Like it was believable.
and I don't think he was like ahundred percent faking, I think.
Yeah, like you said, it's justdialed up a little bit, maybe
(07:37):
because he felt like hisidentity was slipping away by
being that wife guy.
Maybe he was trying to dosomething to regain his own
identity.
And because of that, people havedifferent ways of manifesting to
try to reclaim their ownidentity.
But he just chose a very, verypoor way to do it.
Kristy (07:57):
Yeah, I mean, like, we won't know why and we can't just
like, sit around and makeassumptions about why people
choose to do what they do like,but infidelity in of itself.
Angie has a, has experience witha version of that and, and so do
I.
(08:18):
So let's talk about infidelityas a thing.
Okay.
So infidelity.
should we define in, ininfidelity?
Angie (08:29):
I, We must just,
Kristy (08:37):
M glad I so much joy to your.
poop troops.
Angie is currently having bothher arms, like on her hips and
breathing.
Angie (08:51):
know.
I was like, I didn't wanna get astitch.
Oh boy.
Okay.
How do we wanna approach this?
Okay,
Kristy (08:58):
Yeah.
Angie, this is, this is like aserious, serious topic here.
Angie (09:03):
Maybe that's why we're, That's why I'm laughing, cuz I'm
overcompensating.
Kristy (09:08):
Ooh.
Angie (09:08):
I'm uncomfortable on the topic, but No, let's get into
it.
So like if you, you and I or anyof the poop trips, like if you
type into Google, why do peoplecheat?
At least for me, I don't, Idon't know how, I think Google
like produces different resultsmost of the time.
But most of the results arearticles from pages like
(09:29):
Psychology Today or like verywell mind, like websites that
are very much dedicated intoproviding resources for things
that are related to psychology.
So it's interesting because I'mpretty sure when I was younger
or maybe when you were, wheneven when we were teens, if you
Googled why do people cheat orYeah.
(09:50):
Googled, why do people cheat?
What you would get is likemagazine articles like from
Cosmo or from 17, but I was justvery taken back.
I guess I haven't really Googledwhy do people cheat that much
before?
So when I, when I Googled it andit was all these articles done
by doctors of psychology, I waslike, Oh, okay.
(10:13):
So it is like a very wellaccepted notion, not notion, a
well accepted idea or theorythat cheating is psychological
Kristy (10:23):
Before we get into that, how would you define cheating?
Angie (10:28):
Oh man.
Kristy (10:29):
Cause I feel like everybody has a different, It's
kind of like those baseballbases, Like what is first base,
second base, third base.
I feel like people have kind ofdifferent definitions of what
that means.
I find it the same.
When we talk about cheating,people might have different
definitions of what cheating,what constitutes as cheating.
So in your books, whatconstitutes as cheat?
Angie (10:52):
So I've read books about this after, I was cheated on, so
I'm gonna turn the question onyou and ask what your definition
of cheating is, and then I'lltell you what mine is.
Kristy (11:04):
That makes me uncomfortable.
Angie (11:07):
care.
Kristy (11:10):
Okay, So, okay, Angie has experience being cheated on.
I have experienced being theperson who cheated It makes me
very uncomfortable to definecheating because as a person who
had.
Cheated, my definition is gonnabe very self protecting.
Angie (11:36):
That's okay.
Would it?
So we wanna encourage, I wasgonna say, would it make you
more comfortable if I sharedfirst, but our whole.
The whole notion of our podcastis making the uncomfortable,
comfortable, so,
Kristy (11:51):
Okay.
Okay, So how about this?
Okay, so I have a definition forwhen I was engaging the cheating
act, and then I have adefinition for like now, right
now.
Okay.
So I used to define cheating assomething very physical and
depending on.
(12:14):
The situation.
Usually I would defend, Defend,I would.
Wow, that's, Is that like aFreudian slip right there?
I'm trying to defend myself.
Okay.
So I would define cheating aslike, having sex with someone
that you weren't dating.
So if you held hands withsomeone or if you kissed
(12:35):
somebody else.
And that doesn't really count ascheating.
And it, it means, so I once hadthe definition of to cheat means
you go all the way physicallywith another person.
Angie (12:46):
Gotcha.
Kristy (12:48):
We'll leave it at that for now.
Angie (12:49):
And what about now?
Kristy (12:51):
Now I define cheating as, Whew, this is really tough.
Feel like it's hard withouthaving context of, you know,
Angie (13:01):
Yes.
Okay, so that's exactly myanswer.
What is cheating?
It depends.
So before, before I got cheatedon, my definition was that if
you go all the way and have sexwith someone you're not dating,
that's cheating.
So we used to have the exactsame definition, and now my
(13:24):
answer is, well, it depends.
And a lot of that came from thefact that I tried to understand
exactly what cheating was.
And in my research and analysis,obviously I came to the terms
that, okay, it depends and ifyou Google infidelity, a lot of
those was very interest.
(13:45):
If you Google infidelity, thefirst thing that comes up is the
Wikipedia definition, and itsays that infidelity is a
violation of a couple'semotional and or sexual
exclusivity that commonlyresults in feelings of anger,
sexuality, and rivalry.
What constitutes as infidelitydepends on expectations within
(14:08):
the relationships, and I thinkthat's why I was like, Yeah,
that's exactly what it is.
Kristy (14:14):
I actually really like that.
It depends on the expectationwithin the relationship because
every relationship is differentand we all, you know, we would
have different expectationswithin each bubble of our
relationship.
And see, this is why you need tocommunicate because we can't
expect the other person to havethe same expectations you do.
But I digress.
Angie (14:32):
Yeah, so, So there you have it.
We actually have the exact samedefinition, past and present.
Isn't that interesting?
Kristy (14:40):
that is, that is really interesting.
Angie (14:42):
Okay.
Now I have something reallyinteresting to ask.
Kristy (14:45):
Okay.
Okay.
Angie (14:47):
You said that you have cheated on somebody, but you
said that while when that hadhappened, your definition was
that cheating only includes ifyou went all the way to have sex
with somebody.
So, So
Kristy (15:00):
What's your question,
Angie (15:02):
what did you do?
Did you have
Kristy (15:04):
I cheated.
Angie (15:05):
else?
Kristy (15:06):
Correct.
Angie (15:07):
Oh, okay, Gotcha.
Because there have been momentswhere I had done something that
probably would not have made my,the person I was dating at the
time, very happy, so I never hadsex with another person while
dating someone.
But I have had, I don't seethat's the, It's hard.
(15:28):
It's hard to, like, I have hadlike intense flirting with other
people to the point where Iforget that I have a boyfriend
where people become shocked thatI have a boyfriend.
And I have thought about this,like as I got older, like, Oh,
does that constitute ascheating?
But then my defense is like,well, at the time, to me, that's
(15:48):
not cheating Because mydefinition was like, This isn't
cheating.
So my, my expectation was, it'snot cheating
Kristy (15:59):
But what was your partner's expectation?
Angie (16:02):
Well, I don't know.
We never had a conversationabout it.
This was like my first realboyfriend.
Kristy (16:08):
So this episode already makes me super uncomfortable
because one, I, I don't think Ihave ever really, it only a
small, very, very small, small,small, small group of people
know that I have cheated onsomeone.
And, and I feel like thisepisode is gonna make me look
(16:29):
real bad, Not just because ofthe cheating, but because I
flirt all the fucking timeregard.
Like in any single relationshipthat I have been in, I, I, I am
can be very flirtatious and.
Sometimes, man, there have beentimes when I would purposely not
(16:56):
make it known that I am datingsomeone.
Yeah,
Angie (17:00):
Thank you for sharing that.
I think that's really brave thatyou're saying that out loud
because it would be reallydifficult to do that.
Kristy (17:11):
thanks.
Angie (17:12):
right now?
What are you thinking?
Kristy (17:14):
Well, I obviously I'm uncomfortable, like my fingers
are pretty clammy,
Angie (17:20):
Hm.
Kristy (17:21):
and, Okay.
So I'm uncomfortable for a fewreasons.
the main one is the person thatI cheated on, I don't know if
they know that they werecheated.
So I hope they never listened tothis podcast.
Angie (17:35):
Yeah, but you, you've dated how many people, like, who
Kristy (17:37):
who knows?
Angie (17:39):
Yeah.
Kristy (17:40):
I've
Angie (17:46):
didn't mean that way.
Also happened a while ago.
Didn't it happened when you wereyounger?
Kristy (17:55):
Yes.
Well, I mean all my exeshappened when I was younger.
Okay.
So, okay, so
Angie (18:02):
Okay, let's come
Kristy (18:03):
So, so that's me, That's me defining like, you know, if
we were ever to play a game,never have I ever have, never
have you ever cheated?
I will, I will like drink tothat the thing.
For the longest time, I alwaysjust associated my infidelity
with that time, that physicalcheating, that I had sex with
someone else while I was datinganother person.
(18:25):
Now, as I got older and moremature, I have come to realize
that I have cheated in otherways as well, and that I have
emotionally cheated on people.
And that may or may not haveeven been worse than the
physical cheating.
(18:46):
And I didn't used to considerthat cheating because it didn't
fall into that black and whitedefinition of you have sex with
somebody else.
So what I have done emotionallydid not count as cheating.
But now, I am accepting thatactually, Kristy, you have been
unfaithful multiple times andsome of these incidents includes
(19:12):
emotionally cheating on anotherperson,
Angie (19:15):
What's emotional?
Kristy (19:17):
having romantic feelings for somebody else while you are
dating another person andwanting to pursue those romantic
feelings.
Angie (19:27):
in my book.
That's not emotional cheating.
Kristy (19:30):
Oh,
Angie (19:31):
book, in my book, emotional cheating is basically
having an affair with someoneelse except there's no physical
aspects to it.
So you talk to them late atnight, you tell them things you
don't tell your partner likeit's more than just you having a
crush on somebody.
To me, that's what emotionalcheating is.
(19:53):
In my past relationships, I'vedefinitely had crushes on
someone else while dating.
And I have also questionedmyself whether or not that's
emotional cheating.
And I have read many articlesabout what emotional cheating
is, and my conclusion was it'sonly emotional cheating if it
becomes some sort of a, it'slike an established relationship
(20:16):
like the other person knows orsomething like that.
But I completely understandwhere you're coming from because
I still feel guilty about havinghad those feelings, having had
romantic feelings for otherpeople.
Kristy (20:28):
Okay, so.
I don't count crushes.
Angie (20:31):
Okay,
Kristy (20:32):
I guess it depends on like how deep that crush is.
Angie (20:34):
Yeah, exactly.
I'm like, well now everything islike
Kristy (20:38):
it all depends on context.
Angie (20:40):
there.
It's, everything's a spectrum.
Kristy (20:43):
I would say.
oh man, I don't know anymorethis, this episode's making me
question everything.
I, I had one dated someone, andit was a serious relationship.
And then I also had a work crushwhile dating this person.
And it was like, to me it was aharmless, like it's a work
(21:07):
crush, you know, like nothing'sgonna come out of this.
Like, it's not like I'm gonnadump my boyfriend and just like,
go with this work colleague.
in fact, like I have told theperson I was dating at the time,
like, Hey, so and so is my workcrush, you know, And I don't
like, I feel like that's, likean innocent type thing, you
know?
(21:27):
It's, it's, I guess it
Angie (21:29):
It, it works like you can't help
Kristy (21:31):
There's innocent flirting.
Yeah, there's innocent flirting.
You can't help it.
There's work crushes.
That's okay.
Like you're not, you're notactually gonna leave the other
person, you know, the partnerthat you're, you're with.
And then there's like, Oh, Ireally like this person and I
wanna have a relationship withthem and I'm gonna go on.
Air quotes, I'm doing air quotesright now.
(21:51):
Everybody hangouts, I'm gonnahang out with them.
And it's just the two of ushanging out knowing that you
have mutually strong feelingsfor each other and there may or
may not be lying involved.
You know, like I feel like thatis part of emotional cheating.
Angie (22:12):
Okay.
Yes, that I.
in my books.
That would also be emotionalcheating.
So in my various readings, Icame across this new, new, what
is that about?
New fangled term called microcheating.
Kristy (22:27):
oh my gosh.
All these
Angie (22:29):
know,but it was, it was like, term that was described
by, like a psychologist thatdoes couple counseling.
So I figure that they, know alot more
Kristy (22:42):
Okay, so what's micro?
What's micro cheating?
Angie (22:45):
micro cheating is small acts of crossing boundaries that
you shouldn't cross.
Like hanging out with someonewithout the explicit yeah, or
like going to happy hour afterwork, just so you can be like
hanging out with the coworker.
I think one on one, if you're,if you're really going one on
one, you're both kind of awareof the feelings then that it
(23:07):
might.
In my opinion would be actuallyemotional cheating.
But if you're like, you're like,Oh, like coworkers are going a
happy hour.
You don't normally go, but thistime you wanna go because he's
gonna be there and you wanna bethere too.
That would be considered microcheating.
Like doing these little acts,that is still a violation of
trust because now you're actingupon your feelings.
(23:32):
And these, even though thatitself might not be something
that would hurt somebody likemicro cheating, essentially is
doing something that the actionmight not hurt the person you're
with, but it kind of is goingdown a path of where it's going
towards something
Kristy (23:50):
It's like gateway cheating.
Angie (23:51):
Yeah, like gateway
Kristy (23:53):
It's like gateway drugs.
Angie (23:55):
my
Kristy (23:57):
You.
Angie (24:04):
So, okay, so this next day you, you know, you're gonna
be full on cheating and you'regonna be addicted, and I mean,
addiction and cheating, there'sa lot of overlap as well, but
that's a completely differentconversation.
so this article, which I willshare in the show notes, of
course, so this was a clinicalpsychologist named Sabrina
(24:27):
Romanoff.
So her differentiation is, inmicro cheating, you might engage
in behaviors like liking theirsocial media post we're
repeating repeatedly, visitingtheir profile that don't
necessarily require rereciprocity.
Like it doesn't require theother person to reciprocate.
it doesn't also requireemotional connection.
(24:49):
So maybe that's not gatewaycheating.
So that's like very minor.
And then I think, and then herdefinition for emotional affair
is that it involves moreemotional investment and then
there's involvement from bothparties like you and the
affaire.
And then gateway cheating issomething we just came up with.
So you know, hashtag TM gateway.
(25:11):
TM gateway cheating TM 2022.
Kristy (25:15):
have you engaged in my crew cheating before?
Angie (25:18):
Yes.
No hesitation.
Kristy (25:20):
Would you like to talk about it?
Angie (25:21):
actually I've engaged in gateway cheating before
Kristy (25:24):
Okay.
What's gateway Even though wejust made up the word, let's
define.
Okay.
Angie (25:29):
That example I just gave you was exactly what I did.
Yeah.
So in one of my relation longterm relationships, I also had a
work crush and.
I got along with him very well.
we obviously you spend moretime, This was like before
Covid, so you go into the officeevery day.
So we're spending like eighthours, 40 hours a week of your
(25:52):
waking hours, with, with thisperson.
And like, he sat right next tome and then later on he sat
right behind me.
And we would always get coffeetogether, maybe get breakfast
together, get lunch together.
sometimes the two of us,sometimes there's three of us,
four of us.
but I, I never went to happyhours because I didn't like the
rest of the team.
He was also just like a freshbreath, a breath of fresh air,
(26:15):
because I didn't like my tea
Kristy (26:20):
I'm glad that's, that's right there.
Angie (26:25):
I mean, I wouldn't know.
It's not like we had never didanything physical.
Kristy (26:29):
Okay.
If someone doesn't have freshbreath, you don't have to do
anything physical to know if.
Angie (26:36):
That's true.
Oh man.
But yes, he was a breath offresh air because I really
didn't like anybody on my team.
And when he joined I was like,Oh my God, somebody I actually
like connect with, but likeconnected almost too good And
then I definitely developedfeelings for him.
I thought about what it would belike if I had left my current
(26:56):
partner and dated him.
It seemed like the feelings weremutual, but it was never
explicitly communicated,obviously.
and then it got to the pointwhere like if he was away for
the day, our boss would be like,Hey, where is blank?
And I'm like, I don't know.
Like they expected that.
They're like, Oh, I thought youguys are friends.
(27:17):
I'm like, Oh, I guess we are Butno, I don't know where he is.
I.
The only thing, the thing isthat, the thing is like I never
really thought about what I didas horrible because I never hung
out with him outside of worksituations.
So I had never crossed thatboundary.
we had never crossed thatboundary and I don't think he
(27:39):
would've let us, knowing that Ihad a boyfriend.
But I had seriously consideredif I should have pursued that
opportunity instead,
Kristy (27:54):
And what made you make the decision to not pursue.
Angie (27:59):
because I was like, Well, I know my partner better.
I've known him longer what Iknow about this person.
I only know they're good.
I don't know.
They're bad.
I don't live with.
I don't know what they're likeon a bad day.
I don't know what they're likeon an actual date.
I don't know what kind ofboyfriend they're gonna be like.
So I had logically convincedmyself to not pursue it because
(28:25):
there were so many unknowns.
Of course, in hindsight, I'mlike, okay, that probably meant
that there was something in myrelationship that was lacking
that I wasn't getting.
And now, and then when I didthink about it in hindsight,
like after the relationship hadended, I was like, Oh, it was
mental stimulation.
Like I had never really mentallyconnected.
(28:47):
Well, at least it felt like thatmental stimulation was fading
because, And also likeadmiration and respect was
fading as well.
So, but I had a lot ofadmiration and respect for my
colleague and he, he was reallyfunny, very intelligent.
And we, yeah, we connected onlike mentally.
I even remember, like, this wasfunny because there was one
(29:10):
other coworker who I love, buthe was like almost never there
cuz he was kind of like, I don'tknow what the word is, all over
the place.
and he was like, for a period oftime he was my work bestie.
but not in like a husband kindof way like this other guy was
that.
So the guy, I had actually aromantic feelings for people
called him my work husband.
(29:31):
Let's call him Jay.
Let's call him Jay.
Yeah.
so Jay was, Yeah, so, so a, adifferent colleague had pointed
out like, I don't understand whyyou're attracted to Jay.
He is nothing like yourboyfriend.
I don't see anything in commonbetween the two of them, except
(29:51):
that they're both British and,that's the funny thing is like,
how did he like, It was such aweird, like when he brought that
up, I was like really takenaback.
Like what?
I've never told him that I hadfeelings for Jay.
Like how does he know?
But apparently it was obvious.
So I guess in hindsight, wouldthat be emotional cheating?
(30:14):
I don't know.
I still don't really know.
Kristy (30:17):
I, I don't know, and I don't feel like I am, I am the
right person to answer that.
Angie (30:23):
Maybe not so much an emotional fair as an emotional
slang,
Kristy (30:27):
Mm.
Angie (30:29):
but yeah.
So what had made me decided notto pursue it?
Just, I don't know.
I think I'm just risk averse, Ididn't wanna like abandon
something that was like a surething for something that I
didn't Ohio would turn out.
Which is funny because I endedup being cheated on like in a
way worse method, than that.
(30:51):
But at the time when this.
Romantic feelings had developedfor somebody else.
where from where I was sitting,it was like, okay, well it's
probably just a word crush.
probably doesn't mean anything.
But sometimes I still thinkabout him, not like, Oh, I need
to go pursue him.
But like, oh, like I had done,like I was naive and I didn't
(31:15):
really know what my feelingswere.
Kristy (31:17):
When you say like you think of behind you, do you mean
like, Oh, like I wonder how he'sdoing
Angie (31:22):
Yeah.
Sometimes I'll be like, Oh, Iwonder how he's doing.
But I think most of the timeit's like, like, how did that
happen?
Like, what exactly happened?
And like, cuz I never reallydelve deep into exactly what
happened or how.
I don't know.
(31:42):
I think, I don't really know howto describe it because it's not
like if you have an actualrelationship to somebody, it
starts and it ends.
So when you have like a crush onsomebody or when you have
feelings for somebody, whetheror not you're in a relationship
already or not, then it's likewishy washy.
(32:04):
So sometimes, sometimes I'mlike, Oh, maybe he is like the
one that got away, except I knowhe isn't because we have nothing
in common of work.
So
Kristy (32:15):
Okay, so I have a few things to say here.
I think it's totally, I thinkit's, I think it's totally
natural for you to think aboutlike, oh, like, like randomly, I
wonder how he's doing because hesounded like an important person
in your life.
Regardless if we call itemotional cheating or not.
Like you saw this person everyday at work.
You clearly had a very goodrelationship with them.
Angie (32:38):
Mm-hmm.
Kristy (32:39):
Romance aside or not, it was still like a, an established
relationship.
And I think when you have anestablished relationship with
anybody and then they disappearfrom your life.
They'll pop into your mind fromtime to time and, and you'll
wonder about them and you hopeyou know they're doing well,
kind of a thing.
So I think that's just super,like just a human thing to do.
Angie (33:01):
That's true.
Cuz even when those romanticfeelings subsided, I would still
be like, Oh, like it's, I, likeI miss talking to him.
Or like, if we bumped into eachother in the row, we'd be like,
Hi.
Like, we like hug each other.
And he would do the Europeankiss on the cheek thing, which
didn't help at the time, but youknow, it is what it is.
Kristy (33:24):
have you ever thought of other people who might have been
the one that got away?
Angie (33:29):
No, have you?
Kristy (33:31):
No,
Angie (33:32):
I don't actually think he was the one that got away.
I just mean like, you know howsometimes people think about,
Oh, the one that got away,Except that, that's not how I
view him.
That's just,
Kristy (33:42):
or like, maybe like it's more like, Oh, what if
Angie (33:45):
Yeah.
It's more like a, what if, Ithink the ones where people feel
like they have, they seesomebody as the one that got
away is essentially they feelsome sort of regret or they're
clinging too hard on history onthe past.
That's what I would feel like.
Okay.
This is like super interesting,but we're also kind of getting
(34:05):
away from the topic ofinfidelity.
But you're the one that'sediting, so up to you how you
wanna work this in.
Kristy (34:12):
I, I, I wanna go with where the conversation
naturally.
Is there somewhere you wanna goor is there, is there a place of
curiosity that you would like tovisit with this topic?
Don't feel bordered by ouroriginal, topic.
Angie (34:27):
So there's nobody that you had ever felt like the one
that got away
Kristy (34:32):
I think every single person that I've dated did, was
meant to be there in my life atthat time.
And whether or not I brokesomeone's heart or if they broke
my heart, it was just all meantto be.
And it's all gonna sound like, Idon't know, woo, woo stuff, but
I, I just feel like, like it washow the universe had intended.
(34:57):
And I just hope all the best forfor them.
And I don't think I would feellike, Oh, what if things turned
out differently or blah, blah,blah.
Angie (35:07):
Yeah.
No, I, I, I think I'm on thesame wavelength as you.
I definitely have moments whereit's like, Oh, I wonder what
would've happened if.
Blah, blah, blah.
Like, what if I did leave my, myrelationship and pursue this
colleague?
Like what would've happened?
Like what if, kind of thing.
But it's not like I see him aslike, it's not like I actually
(35:29):
see him as the one that gotaway.
I think that term is very loadedbecause it kind of comes from
like movies and TV and it'salways about like the main
characters and it reallyidealizes a relationship or a
person
Kristy (35:49):
I mean, it makes it seem like there's like the one in the
world, and that's not somethingthat I, I believe in.
And, and I wanna clarify likethe phrase, the one who got
away.
I see it as a very differentphrase as what if I had gone out
with this person?
Like, I see that as totallydifferent things.
(36:10):
So the one that got away is justnot something that I identify
with is not, it's not a phrasethat I get.
I mean, I get, but like, Idon't, I don't, get, you know,
or I don't believe Yeah.
Unless, unless, unless less.
We're talking about Mr.
Lobster, but you know, we don'tknow.
Who knows, Right?
That's in the future.
(36:30):
And that's really close to meright now.
So obviously I have a verybiased and, you know, like I
have sunglasses on kind of athing.
now the phrase what if the, whatif phrase that's different
because that I don't carewhether or not the relationship
worked out or not.
I, you know, it's to me how Idefine a what if phrase would
(36:53):
be, I wonder, would've been liketo have pursued, I wonder
would've been like to date thatperson without thinking like,
Oh, that's my forever person.
Angie (37:02):
Yes.
Kristy (37:02):
Cuz it may or may not have worked out, but I was, I
would've just been curious toknow what it'd been like to date
that person.
And that's the phrase that I'mtrying to say.
I haven't felt.
Don't think, or at least, Idon't know.
I mean, it's not something Ithought about before.
And I think the difference hereis because I actually did end up
(37:23):
dating my work crush.
I, I did do the what ifTherefore I don't There is no
what if question.
Yeah.
Because I walk through thatdoor, I to choose your own
adventure book.
I flip to that page.
Angie (37:40):
So you were more brave than I am.
And, how did that work out?
The what if, were you happy thatyou made the decision?
Were you happy that you madethat decision?
Kristy (37:49):
Yes.
But it, it also, thatrelationship made me realize
that, oh, I had emotionallycheated on the person that I was
with originally.
And That wasn't something that Ihad realized before because I
still stuck to my originaldefinition of what cheating
meant was that, oh, I didn't, Ididn't have anything physical
(38:12):
with this person.
We didn't do anything quoteunquote wrong.
So we didn't cheat and we hadmade sure, my first relationship
or the, the person that I wasdating before, that our
relationship had ended before Ipursued anything with the other
person.
(38:33):
because I felt like I did allthose things, then it didn't
constitute us cheating untilyears later when I reflected.
I'm like, No, but that.
Just because I didn't physicallycheat and just because I quote
unquote checked all the boxesand made sure, you know, we had
broken up before I had gone outwith this other person and blah,
blah, blah.
(38:54):
You know, trying to, basicallytrying to like keep my hands
clean.
Like I, I did all these thingsto keep my hands clean, thinking
that my hands were clean, butreally I had, I had emotionally
cheated, so my hands were neverclean, even though I thought
they were.
Angie (39:08):
Hmm, that's very mature of you.
And that's kind of where I havesomewhat settled on my
colleague's situation from backthen as well is that I think I
did emotionally cheat.
It wasn't an emotional affairbecause it, there wasn't really
anything that was likereciprocated.
(39:28):
I think the feelings were therefor both of us, but it wasn't a
situation where like I wouldconfide in him or he would
confide in me cuz we had nevertaken those interactions outside
of work related items, workrelated situations.
But, I had acted certain actionsthat I had decided to make, that
(39:50):
I made the choice of doing, werein hopes that it would lead to
something.
So even though nothing hadactually happened and I didn't
actually pursue explicitly, Ihave put myself in situations
where I hoped something wouldhappen.
So for me, it's still kind oflike, I, like I, I, I think this
(40:10):
conversation's making me go,Yep, it was, but before this
conversation, I was kind oflike, it depends on the
definition, you know, Like I, itwas also kind of me trying to
like absolve myself of anyguilt.
but I, I even came clean when Ibroke up with my ex.
I was.
It was when I was berating himfor cheating and then I was
(40:32):
like, Yeah, like I had a crushon blah, blah, blah.
But I never acted upon it.
And he was like, I knew it.
I knew you did.
I was like, Oh, okay.
But at the time I was like, Idon't fucking care.
Like the fuck outta my life.
Right.
But in hindsight, you know,after having processed
everything in the last fewyears, it's like, okay.
(40:54):
And then having thisconversation where you're
talking about your experience,and you did end up going into a
relationship with that coworker.
I didn't.
But just because we didn't endup pursuing a relationship
doesn't mean that I didn'temotionally cheat.
Kristy (41:21):
You asked me if I, Okay, I'm, I'm paraphrasing.
Maybe you didn't ask me this,but how I had interpreted was
you asked me if I re like, did Iregret making that decision?
Was that a question that you hadasked me?
And just nodding.
So yes.
Okay.
and I initially said, No, Idon't regret making the decision
(41:43):
of dating my coworker.
what I do regret is,
Angie (41:48):
Hurting the other person.
Kristy (41:51):
Yes, We talked about how work crushes sometimes you just
can't help it.
It's proximity, It's, you know,there's just a lot of charming
people in the world.
Okay.
And a lot of times they'reinnocent and I think that's
okay.
It's, I think it's okay to havesome innocent crushes and
(42:13):
innocent flirting, but I thinkthere is a boundary and, not
just physical boundary, but anemotional boundary.
And I regret crossing thatemotional boundary before I had.
(42:36):
Not even like broken up with my,with the person I was dating,
but just, you know, respect,like make having a, a
respectable distance before Ieven decide to choose to date
colleague.
Am I making any sense?
Angie (42:55):
No, you're making sense.
Kristy (42:58):
And I think that's what I regret, is that everything was
too close, too muddled, and itcaused a lot of pain
Angie (43:06):
Hmm.
Kristy (43:07):
other person that I, I didn't fully appreciate until,
until later.
Angie (43:13):
Actually one of the drivers of why I made the
decision not to pursue, one ofthem was what I said was the
uncertainty.
The other one was I didn't wantto bring that kind of pain into
both the person I was dating andmyself, cuz it's pain for
everybody so that was a bigthing for me as well.
(43:36):
Do you?
Okay.
I don't know.
I don't know if I should askthis.
Well, why not?
I know, I know we don't wannadwell on the past, but if you
can go back in time, would youchange, I know that you would've
still decided to, date yourcoworker instead, move nine step
but day your coworker, period,But what do you think would,
(43:58):
like, how do you think, rephrasethat now with all the knowledge
and reflection and
Kristy (44:05):
all the
Angie (44:06):
the, all the wisdom you have gathered in the past, blah,
blah, blah, years.
if you were to go back, whatwould you do
Kristy (44:14):
I would keep the, I.
I would identify that these aretwo different relationships.
The person that I was stating atthe time, we were having a lot
of issues unrelated to mycoworker.
We were just having issueswithin our own re relationship.
(44:35):
you know, that thing that yousaid, you know, when, when
something is lacking and thenyou latch onto somebody else?
I, I would've want to not use mycoworker as,
Angie (44:48):
Has a life buoy.
Kristy (44:50):
as something to like patch the hole.
You know, I, I would want tohave seen these two people.
Very separately, like I would'vewanted to deal with the current
relationship that I was having,the troubled relationship deal
with.
That whether that be, I mean, Idon't think it was at a place
(45:10):
where we could fix it like weneeded to break up regardless if
the coworker existed or not.
It just so happened that theyexisted and it made things more
complicated.
So I wish I would have separatedthat more clearly, more
distinctly, and deal with theissues that I had with the
current person.
Let let that process mu over,give time for that and, and
(45:36):
grieve over that relationship.
Let the both of us grieve overthe end of that relationship
before I even indulge inthinking about starting another
relat.
Angie (45:47):
Yeah.
Kristy (45:48):
So I guess the main thing is if, if I had the chance
to go back and do itdifferently, I would separate
the two relationship and just bevery distinct about it.
And not even like care or letmyself, Yeah.
Indulge in what my colleague orthe potential relationship with
(46:08):
my colleague would be like, butfocus on the current
relationship that I alreadyhave.
And by focusing, I don't meanfixing, like properly breaking
up with this person and thenproperly having a grieving
process.
then before I even move on,
Angie (46:26):
That's really well said.
Kristy (46:29):
was it cuz it felt like I was just
Angie (46:33):
No, it was really
Kristy (46:33):
well?
Like I had fist bones in mymouth or something.
Angie (46:37):
To me, it was really well said because that's exactly what
I would do if I were to go backas well.
same thing, like it, to me itwas like, you're right, like the
coworker was just there.
but to me it wasn't like areminder that, hey, there's
problems in your relationship.
It was like, Oh, look, look atthis new shiny object now.
(46:58):
You don't have to be depressedabout something else that's
going on that's maybe botheringyou.
Um, yes, a distraction.
And, and that's, and I don'twanna reduce that person down to
just a distraction because Igenerally had feelings for them
and I respected them and Iadmired them.
But it was definitely likesomething to distract me from
(47:19):
the fact that there were actualfundamental problems with the
relationship that I was in.
And if I were to go back, Iwould do all those things,
except I don't even know if Icould do all those things,
because I don't know if I wouldbe strong enough to do that, to
(47:40):
pry myself out of arelationship, not knowing what's
gonna happen in the future.
It's scary.
And I think that's why Icouldn't do it.
I was like, Yeah, it, it wasjust too scary of a thought for
me.
Kristy (47:55):
I think it's a very scary thought for a lot of
people, and that's why so manypeople end up staying in
relationships that aren't greatfor them.
Angie (48:08):
Or they end up cheating because they don't know how to
get out of the currentrelationship and they sometimes
self sabotage to you know, andthen they take their mistress to
a Harry Styles concert hoping toget caught.
Kristy (48:26):
Okay.
I don't know that reference.
Angie (48:28):
Oh, Ned took, Alex to a Harry Styles concert and they
got recognized and then laterthey went to a club and made
out.
And that was when like a fantook a video of it and sent it
to Alex's fiance.
That's how the whole thing
Kristy (48:45):
I didn't know about the Harry Styles thing.
I, I mean, knew about the clubbecause that's the video.
Like that's, that's the JuicyJuice.
Okay, gotcha.
Angie (48:55):
So, yeah, so I, I would like to think that if I were to
go back to that exact same placethat I would do those things
that you had just said, I wouldlike to think that I could do
that, but knowing where I wasthen I definitely wouldn't have
been able to do it.
Kristy (49:13):
I mean, I say these things, but I don't, I don't
know if I could have
Angie (49:18):
But what you're doing right now is very brave.
Kristy (49:20):
what
Angie (49:20):
I find what you're doing right now with Mr.
Lobster more brave than drivingacross Western Canada.
Now they are both brave, okay?
Driving across Western Canadaand sleeping in your car and you
know, with the, with the riskthat some random dude's gonna
break your windows and kidnapyou, or some moose is gonna come
(49:42):
along and smash your windows totry to eat your clothes.
Like, those are all very scarythings.
And the fact that you did that,that's very brave.
But this must star lobstersthing that's even more brave in
my opinion.
Kristy (49:56):
Well, thank you.
I don't, I don't know what tosay.
Angie (49:59):
fyi, if you haven't already heard episode 45, that's
where, Kristy talks about whatshe learned from breaking up a
six year relationship.
So that's what I'm referencingwhen I say that.
what you did with Mr.
Lobster is super brave because Icould never do that.
Even now, I don't think I havethe, strength to do that.
Kristy (50:21):
Dang.
you.
Thanks.
I feel so seen and so, sorecognized and, and for the poop
tubes, who didn't know?
I, drove across Western Canadato come home from Toronto to
Vancouver, in case you, like,you probably understood the
reference by it now, but, that'swhat I've been doing in the last
(50:42):
four weeks.
Angie (50:43):
has it only been four weeks?
That feels longer,
Kristy (50:44):
Well, I mean, if you include Newfoundland, then it's
six weeks.
Angie (50:48):
Oh yeah, it did include Newfoundland, so it did, You
know, I'm just glad that youweren't, assaulted by any me
mooses, Muai.
That sounds, that sounds like a
Kristy (50:59):
Anyways, any anyways, so how do we feel about, about
cheating and infidelity now thatwe've had a conversation?
Angie (51:09):
now that we've had a conversation about it and now
that we have established that,you have cheated in the
traditional sense and emotionalsense, and I have cheated in the
emotional sense and I have beencheated on in the traditional
and emotional sense, where do Istand on the subject?
I think it's just such acomplicated topic, which is why
(51:33):
there is no right answer forwhat is cheating and why do
people cheat.
I think it's just.
depends on the relationship.
And I think going back to thatdefinition that I had first read
out loud from Wikipedia, thatit's all about expectations.
I think that's where it comesin.
How, how do I feel about it?
I feel like the healthiest thingto do would be to sit down with
(51:55):
your partner and talk about whateach of you would consider as
infidelity.
Now, whether or not that'ssomething I would actually be
able to do, I don't think sobecause it's, See, it's like so
awkward.
Like why are you asking that?
It's like asking, what the rulesof the games are so you can try
to find your way to bend therules and win a game.
But relationships aren't games.
Kristy (52:18):
well, well well, okay, so this is this.
This is what I think now.
I agree.
Everything comes down to contextand it, it all depends.
We can never understand whyanother person decided to cheat,
so we cannot make anyassumptions or frankly, any real
(52:43):
judgements on Ned Fulmer andAlex.
I don't remember her last name.
And because I think it's reallycomplicated, I'm not saying it's
the right thing to do, like I'mnot defending the actual
cheating, but I just think it isso complicated and it's
(53:05):
different in every relationship.
It's different between eachperson about why and what the
motivations are and et cetera.
I think a lot of times when wesee infidelity in the headlines,
and not even in the headlines,but when we hear about
infidelity, even within our ownsocial networks, we
automatically jump to judgment.
(53:27):
We automatically think that theperson,
Angie (53:32):
Is like an evil human being.
Kristy (53:34):
like we reduce the situation, we reduce the human
beings that are involved in thestory.
And I'm not defending.
Infidelity itself, but I'm justsaying it's important to be
mindful that it's a lot morecomplicated
Angie (53:54):
And it's a lot more nuance nuanced, like it's a lot
more nuanced than like bad good.
They cheat, they bad person,they not cheat, they good
person.
I'm sure there are lots ofhorrible people out there who
have never cheated, like serialkillers, but you know, one of
the things I wanted to alsopoint out is like, I think the
degree also changes things likethe degree, I think the part
(54:16):
where like, Not only are youbreaking somebody's trust, but
are you being duplicity?
Like are you, are you beingduplicity?
does your action impact otherpeople's lives negatively and
like the consequences?
And are you gaslighting people?
Are you lying to people?
Like, are you being a hypocrite?
I think those all play into howbad the situation is, so it's
(54:40):
not infidelity itself.
That's the whole story.
I think it's like you have tolook at the whole picture so
where I'm coming from is likethis whole situation with the
try guys.
The reason why it's so bad isbecause he has put the company
that they created in jeopardy.
It was, not only was it like a,an affair, like that's for
(55:03):
personal relationship.
It also broke the trust inprofessional terms.
And because they're like publicfigures, it, like, it damaged a
lot of people's trust.
Like even just onlookers, right?
Well, like, oh shit.
Like, like now, now I don'tbelieve in love anymore.
I know people joke about that,but it does impact people's view
(55:24):
on trust.
And in my, in my experience, abig part of why I was so
traumatized by my experience isthat there was so much gas
lighting in hypocrisy.
because I had tried to break upwith my partner, before I even
found out about the cheating,but he asked me to put faith in
the relationship.
(55:44):
So obviously I felt like afucking idiot after the fact,
right?
So it's like, I think that alsothat's where I, that's what I
mean when I say that it's verynuanced.
Like infidelity itself is not agood course of action.
But I don't reduce Kristy downto a bad person because she had
(56:04):
cheated on her ex-boyfriend.
I don't reduce somebody else Iknow who I know was the mistress
to a married man.
I don't reduce them down to,that and go act, because again,
depends on the whole picture.
Kristy (56:18):
You know what I love about this is, or this
conversation, I don't, I don'tlove infidelity, everything that
you're saying today on thisepisode comes from being the
person who has been cheated on.
And then everything that I'msaying consciously or
subconsciously is coming fromthe place of someone who has
done the cheating.
And even though we come fromlike 180.
(56:41):
Positions.
I feel like at the end of theday, we agree with everything
that we're saying.
Like, look for these things,look for the hypocrisy.
Are we, are you lying?
Are, is there lying involved?
I'm saying like, are you lying?
Because I'm coming from thecheater's perspective.
Like, if you think you are acheater, these are the things
of, these are the signs to lookout for.
(57:04):
And Angie is like, If you thinkyou're being cheated, these are
the signs to look out for.
And they're like the same, Youknow, like, are you being a
hypocrite?
Are you lying?
And earlier Angie was sayinghow, you know, like sit down
with your partner and definewhat infidelity is.
Define what cheating is.
(57:24):
But that's so awkward.
It's like trying to see how farcan I go?
Where do we draw the line so Ican like know where the
boundaries are.
But I think for me, even thoughI, at the time when I
emotionally cheated, I wastelling myself I wasn't doing
anything wrong I knew I wasdoing a bad thing.
Like I knew I was doingsomething that wasn't right and
(57:47):
it didn't feel right because Iwas sneaking around and I was
telling white lies, or I wouldbe telling the truth, but, but I
would make it seem like it's,well, it's not bent.
Like I would be straight upabout it.
I'd be like, Oh, I'm going outwith this person and it's just
gonna be the two of us.
You know?
Or I straight up be like, Yes,this is my work crush and we're
gonna hang out like I was.
(58:09):
And I felt like that was me.
Being a good communicator, beinghonest, but I made it sound like
it wasn't a big deal, when infact it was a big deal because I
would get very excited to seethis person, you know, I would
like think about what clothes Iwear and what makeup, or not
even what makeup, but like justput on some fucking makeup, you
know, and and I would feel,maybe it's guilt, but I would
(58:34):
not feel good about doing thosethings, even though I had told
my boyfriend at the time whatwas happening, thinking that
that was okay.
Thinking that that was me beinga good communicator, being an
honest person.
So at the end of the day, it'slike, you know, these are just
some of the checklists that bothAngie and I.
(58:55):
Felt, were relevant in oursituations.
The hypocrisy, the, the lying,maybe lying, the
overcompensation and the gutfeelings for me, because at the
end of the day, even though Iwas telling myself I wasn't
doing anything wrong, I stillfelt like I was
Angie (59:10):
I.
Kristy (59:11):
doing something right.
Angie (59:13):
Yeah.
And I think the, from the otherside as well, like I had all
these gut feelings thatsomething was wrong.
and when I would question theother person, this is where the
gas lighting came in, that I wasmade to feel like my gut
feelings were wrong.
And I don't know, I guess gutfeelings are a lot more
important than we think.
And I guess, you know, ifsomething feels wrong, it might
(59:35):
be a good time to have aconversation about it.
Kristy (59:37):
Yep.
Angie (59:38):
Like maybe even before you do anything.
Or if you realize that you wentto happy Hour solely because you
want to spend more time with acertain person that's not your
significant other, maybe youshould have a conversation with
your partner about your relat.
Kristy (01:00:02):
Okay.
That's all we got.
So anyways, that's, that's,that's me being a cheater,
Angie (01:00:12):
I wouldn't use that word to describe you, and I don't
think you should either.
You're not a cheater, but youhad cheated on.
Yeah.
not a cheater.
Kristy (01:00:22):
yes.
It's not a identity thing, it'san action thing.
Angie (01:00:25):
Yeah.
It's not an identity.
It is action thing.
It's also non-current.
Kristy (01:00:31):
Thank you,
Angie (01:00:32):
Oh my God.
There was one analogy that Iwas, that I forgot about that I
just remember.
Okay.
So in Chinese, when you saysomebody had cheated, you say
that they went off track, likeoff of the railroad track
Kristy (01:00:45):
Can you say it?
Angie (01:00:47):
So what I had rail was like, okay, when somebody goes
off track, do you blame thewheels, the track or the
scenery?
If you blame the scenery, thenyou're blaming like the mistress
or whatever.
but really what you should belooking at is the, either the
wheels, like either the trainitself or the train tracks.
because that causes a train togo off tracks.
(01:01:09):
Not the scenery,
Kristy (01:01:10):
I thought of the inductor.
Angie (01:01:11):
conductor.
Well,
Kristy (01:01:13):
The person or who's driving the train.
Angie (01:01:15):
this is like, you know, an electric train with no
driver.
So think of a sky train.
They also have a conductor, butyou know what I mean?
Okay.
You're, you're making thisanalogy.
You're ruining the analogy.
You are ruining the analogy.
But also like, obviouslymistresses are not just the
scene race.
Sometimes they are because theydon't know that you're in a
relationship.
but yeah.
Anyway, so the analogy doesn'talways apply.
(01:01:36):
What it's trying to say is focuson the two people in the
relationship, rather than juston something else.
Because then that'll always makeit harder and make you focus on
the wrong things.
And that was one of the advice Igot when trying to.
Process.
The cheating, the, the beingcheated on is don't focus on the
part where like the cheatinghappened, focus on what happened
(01:02:00):
that had led to the cheating sothat you can process the
downfalls of the relationshipand move on.
And I was like, Ah, yes, thetrain and the train track.
Kristy (01:02:09):
That is an excellent way to cap off today's episode.
Angie (01:02:13):
Thank you listeners for listening to this episode about
infidelity.
Until next time.
Kristy (01:02:19):
Bye.
Angie (01:02:20):
Bye.
(01:02:52):
It just sounds like you'repeeing
Kristy (01:02:55):
I know.
Angie (01:02:57):
It's not like you haven't peed during the recording
before, but this time you're,Yeah.
Um,
Kristy (01:03:03):
I was just concerned because of the noise.
Angie (01:03:06):
okay.
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