September 12, 2023 • 35 mins
Host, DeAnn Knighton, and Janet Hadley, founder of Choose Sunrise (UK organization), review considerations for employers in building alcohol safety into their organizations
Stigma and workplace. 7:37
- Reaching out to the gray area drinkers in the workplace
- Stigma is a result of our evolution to put people into groups, which is useful, but creates blind spots for gray areas.
- "Drink Responsibly" is a powerful slogan that enforces stigma
Who has a bigger problem with alcohol? 13:22
- Alcohol is the number one risk factor for premature death of individuals ages 25 to 49, according to the US and the UK.
- The UK and the US are both above the global average of 4.9% for prevalence of alcohol use disorder
- In the UK Alcohol use disorder is not specifically called out in the discrimination act, but it is not a protected characteristic in the same way that depression is.
- The Americans with disabilities act ensures that people with disabilities, including people with addiction to alcohol, have the same rights and opportunities. Link: https://adata.org/factsheet/ada-addiction-recovery-and-employment
- Alcohol Safe Workplace Accreditation (UK) 24:40
- The accreditation standards cover policy, culture, education, and support for individuals.
- 40% of all workplace accidents are alcohol-related, and 50% of sexual harassment claims in the workplace involve alcohol.
- The head of Lloyd's of London is a big insurance underwriter in London and has recently banned all daytime workplace drinking, which is a huge indication of how things are changing and culturally saying that this isn't inclusive.
- Setting up a sober curious society. 30:11
- Janet started a sober curious society while working at the Co-op in her corporate job.
- The importance of engaging people from the community to be a part of the organization and being out loud about who they are.
Janet Hadley - Link
https://choosesunrise.co.uk
If you have questions or comments or would like to be a guest on the Recovery Discovery Podcast, send an email to:
deann@showupandstay.org
More information about our project is available at:
https://www.showupandstay.org/
https://www.soberpositiveworkplace.org/
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Music and Audio Production by Katie Hare.
https://www.hare.works
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
DeAnn Knighton (00:06):
Oh, hello. This is the sober positive workplace
series brought to you by show upand stay. I'm your host Deann
Knighton.
Oh, hello, and welcome back. I'mso glad you're here. This is our
(00:26):
second episode in our soberpositive workplace series
officially.
I'm really excited to introduceyou to my guests today. But
before I do that, I'm actuallygoing to bring in a little bit
of a throwback clip from anepisode of the shelf and a
podcast I did a couple of monthsago. I feel like it really
(00:49):
frames up the conversation I'mabout to have with our guests.
So take a listen. And then whenwe come back, you'll get a
chance to meet Janet
Mad Men Clip (01:00):
Daily friendship with that bottle attracts more
people to advertising than anysalary you could dream up.
That's why I got in.
DeAnn Knighton (01:07):
This is a clip from madmen, which aired on AMC
from the year 2007 to 2015.
Mad Men Clip (01:14):
So enjoy it. Do my best here. Not only had a drink
your whole generation drink forthe wrong reasons.
DeAnn Knighton (01:22):
You're listening to Roger Sterling, played by
John Slattery. As he iseducating his younger
counterpart on Draper, played byJon Hamm.
Mad Men Clip (01:35):
My generation we drink because it's good. Because
it feels better than unbuttoningyour collar. Because we deserve
it
DeAnn Knighton (01:43):
on why his generation drink because it's
what mento seems to understandsomething better. And Don's What
about shaky hands, I see a lotof that too, with your boys.
Mad Men Clip (01:52):
No joke. You're kind with your gloomy thoughts
and your worries. You're allbusy licking some imaginary
wound. Not all imaginary.
DeAnn Knighton (02:02):
I watched madmen at the height of my drinking
career. And I remember placing alot of glorification around what
I saw on the screen, portrayingthe 1960s and showing us that,
like crap, what we do now as itrelates to alcohol in the
workplace, is nothing comparedto what they did in 1960. Then,
(02:24):
on the same note, as someonewho's struggling at the time,
with substance use disorder,finding some sort of refuge in
this understanding, some sort ofHall Pass for the way that I
drink. A lot of my drinking wastied to my work, and I took a
lot of pride in my ability todrink often and drink a lot. Too
(02:46):
much pride, I'm afraid.
According to an article in TheAtlantic, called drinking too
much is an American problem.
They describe the fact that from1999 to 2017, the number of
alcohol related deaths hasdoubled to more than 70,000 a
(03:08):
year. And when I hear RogerSterling lecturing Don, on the
softness of his generation feelsa little too familiar to
conversations I hear floating inthe air these days. America's
relationship with alcohol isextreme. We overcompensate and
(03:33):
make drastic adjustments. Butthen in these drastic
adjustments, we somehow seem tosee the same problems cycling
back, but worse.
Janet Hadley (03:45):
When I first stopped drinking, we were in
lockdown in 2020. Actually, Ithink I was quite lucky in a way
because I didn't have to tellanyone for a little while. One
of my big big fears was tellingpeople that I wasn't drinking
anymore
DeAnn Knighton (04:00):
This is Janet Hadley,
Janet Hadley (04:01):
it was so wrapped up with my identity. I was the
party girl. I was the life andsoul of the party, the last
person to go home on every nightout. I even had an award from my
team at work. I'm their boss,and they gave me an award for
being the most drunk person atthe Christmas party. What do you
know, that was me.
DeAnn Knighton (04:20):
Janet lives in northern England in the town of
Leeds. She is a mom of threeteenagers, and successful
business person and amateurpianist. In her words, she had a
family, a career, a nice house,good schools and all the outward
signs of success. Yet sheregularly used to ache at 3am
(04:42):
Dry mouth head banging andpromising herself she'd learned
to moderate her drinking. Andluckily, she was able to build a
new path and started where Ifeel like the best thing start
by telling her story.
Janet Hadley (04:58):
I was described as a happy drunk and no one ever
seemed to think of it as beingany kind of issue. I knew it was
an issue. And when I stopped, Iwas actually really scared of
telling my work team that I'dstopped. And it was quite a
while that was when thingsstarted to open up again, I went
back into the office, and we hadthis kind of all day session
(05:19):
with the team because we hadn'tseen each other for months. And
I told them then, and I ended uptelling them like a much longer
story than I was intending to,they were just captivated by it,
and just sort of going, Wow,thank you for sharing that. And,
yeah, of course, we'll supportyou. And we won't try and cajole
you into drinking. And, youknow, it was so different to the
(05:40):
fear that I'd had, it reallykind of empowered me, it made me
think, well, you know, if I cantell that story and get support,
like maybe I can help otherpeople in this workplace by
talking more widely about it,and I sort of started with the
people immediately around me.
And then being in quite a seniorjob, I got, like bigger and
bigger audiences within theorganization. I mean, it's a
(06:02):
huge organization. And that'show it started, really. And I
started getting emails, the bitsthat they relate to the term
gray area drinking, I think, isreally helpful for people. So we
all have this black and whitethinking of normal drinkers and
alcoholics until we stop andquestion it. And then of course,
you realize that it's not likethat. There's a huge gray area,
(06:25):
and it really helps people. AndI think the reason why that
really helps people is becausethe stigma that surrounds
alcoholism, means that it's sohard to put your hand up and say
I've got a problem. But it's alot easier to put your hand up
and say, I might be in the grayarea. I think that's one of the
things that actually probably,nearly everyone I speak to
(06:48):
relates to. And the other bitthat's always relatable is the
mummy wine culture. Not surewhat it's like where you are,
but in the UK, and I know inAustralia as well, from people I
know over there, it's just rife,and all over the internet, the
memes, the sort of big wineglass that says small glass,
medium, glass, mom's glass, allthat stuff, people really relate
(07:11):
to that. And so many people findthat they're big drinkers, they
go out, they party, and thenthey have children, and suddenly
they sort of bring the partyhome. And it's like getting
drunk in the evenings after thekids have gone to bed to feel a
bit more like your old self. Andthat's how it can start to kind
of feel like a problem. Well, Iguess it's getting woken up at
(07:31):
four in the morning by screamingbaby, when you've got hungover
as no one talks about that.
DeAnn Knighton (07:37):
Yeah, then, you know, how can you even be
present for anything in thatcapacity? And, yeah, it's just
kind of surviving from one stateof being to the next state of
being instead of actuallyliving,
Janet Hadley (07:51):
I try to live without regrets. But I do
sometimes look back on when mychildren were very young, and
think I really wish I'd donethis sooner. Because I would
rush through bedtime stories toget down, I could almost hear
the cork coming out of the wine,like, there would be one parent
reading to the children and theother one drinking wine, and you
always want it to be the otherone. And that's not right. You
(08:14):
know, that was really precioustime, though, to be spending
with them. And I think if I'dstopped drinking sooner, I would
have really cherished that timeinstead of rushing through it,
and been a lot more present. AndI feel that that would have
benefited all of us. And it'ssomething that you know, if
anyone's listening who has youngchildren, like really do
consider what life might belike, if you just remove alcohol
(08:36):
from the equation, you probablydon't believe me, but you will
find more joy in normal things.
That's the big difference.
DeAnn Knighton (08:54):
I am interested in what you were saying around
gray area drinking and I thinkwe are very similar in a lot of
ways work was my life. Iinvested everything into a sales
career very much party girlparty culture, and work hard,
play hard, but I had all kindsof other underlying things going
on along the way. Everythingalways felt harder for me. I
(09:14):
struggled withcompartmentalizing work from the
rest of my life, it kind ofbecame everything. And then
alcohol got wrapped up into kindof the sadness of all of that.
And it just became a problemmore and more over a 20 year
period. I also share with youthat I just could not imagine
living the life I was living atthat time without alcohol being
(09:36):
a part of it. It was just alwaysa part of who I was I had over
identified with it. What I thinkis interesting, as we look at
this shift, there's two thingsgoing on. It's reaching out to
the gray area drinkers that arein the workplace that are
thinking who maybe it's once ina while they're asking
themselves is my drinkingproblem, you know, or like going
(09:59):
in taking the quiz in secret,but then it all feels so scary
and overwhelming because I wentthrough that. But I never knew
that there was any sort ofmiddle road, I always felt that
the road was extreme, right. Andin my case, it actually ended up
being extreme, I had to dotreatment and the whole thing,
which I don't regret for asecond, it's changed my life.
(10:20):
But I think about this problemconstantly in terms of that
divide between all of thesepeople who may be in a space
where it feels uncomfortable,but then not sure what that
other identity looks like thework that you're doing is so
powerful, in the sense that itcan help show people that you
can have a full life. Andwhether or not you want to
(10:40):
identify as somebody withalcoholism or not, it really
doesn't matter at the end of theday. Where do you feel like when
we look at this divide thatexists, one of the things I
heard you speak about that Ithought was really powerful was
that slogan of drinkresponsibly, which I feel like
definitely sums up this issue interms of that shame and stigma
(11:04):
creation. And I'd love for youto talk about how that type of
messaging the type of damagethat it has on a trickle down.
Janet Hadley (11:12):
I've spent a lot of time thinking about stigma,
and researching stigma and whyit exists. And what I've learned
is stigma is a result of ourevolution. So we have evolved to
put people into groups becausethat's really useful. So if we
put people into groups of thetribe we belong to, and the
(11:33):
tribe we don't belong to, thenwe know who will help us care
for our children. And we knowwho will look after us when
we're sick. And over themillennia of human evolution.
Stigma has actually evolved fromthis, authoring this grouping of
people. And obviously, it doeshelp us because you can't know
(11:54):
everybody. And so you do bunchpeople up into groups, you
divide them. And that's really,really useful. But a really on
useful, almost like unintendedconsequence of it, it creates
blind spots for gray areas. Soas we said earlier, this kind of
black and white thinking aboutpeople who have a problem with
(12:14):
alcohol, and people who don't,we know that we're not waking up
in a skip, we know that we don'tdrink vodka in the mornings, we
know that we're not a tramp on apark bench. So therefore, we
know that we're not analcoholic. That's kind of how a
lot of people feel. So they'relike, I'm not an alcoholic, I
just, I just have this constantworry that I might be drinking
(12:36):
too much. And you don't identifythem with the services, a lot of
the services are developed forpeople who've really become like
physically dependent uponalcohol, or like have developed
what in the UK is now beingcalled an alcohol use disorder.
Whereas I think that we canprevent a lot of harm by
reaching people who are in thisgray area in between. And I
(12:59):
think that this stigma needs tobe reduced in order to help
people to put their hand up alittle bit sooner and say, I
might need a bit of help. At theend of the day. If you develop
an issue, becoming addicted toan addictive substance that's
been marketed to you throughyour whole life, you know, how
is that something to be ashamedof.
DeAnn Knighton (13:22):
Although there's some competing data around who
has a bigger problem withalcohol, the US or the UK,
depending on how you look at theequation. One thing is for sure
that both countries fall wellabove the global average of
4.9%. For prevalence of alcoholuse disorder. For both
(13:44):
countries, alcohol is consideredthe number one risk factor for
premature death of individualsages 25 to 49. Both of us have
seen notable and upsettingincreases in the amount of
problematic drinking amongstwomen.
Janet Hadley (14:07):
I've got a mate who tells he always says alcohol
is 4% ethanol and 96% marketing.
I love that because it's thissense that the responsibility is
on us to drink responsibly, isjust feeding into that ordering.
So oh, there's a few poor peoplewho can't handle them. And they
have to always take it too far.
(14:28):
And they're over there in another category that you'll never
be in there. The alcoholics,you're fine, you're over here,
we can keep southern ouralcohol. And that drink
responsibly message from theindustry is feeding of the
stigma. And what I really wantto do is to talk more openly
about what it feels like to beon the way into a proper full on
(14:52):
full blown alcohol issue. Andhelp people identify that they
may be starting to see some ofthose warning signs and And to
help them realize that it isokay to ask for help. And that
if we could reach more people inthat area, and I'm not even
saying you need to stop drinkingforever, have a break, or become
(15:12):
a flexi drinker, where you haveone glass of wine, and then you
have a glass of alcohol freewine for the rest of the
evening. There's other ways thanjust having to stop completely.
For me, nothing is so mucheasier than a little bit of
alcohol. But maybe if I'daddressed it sooner, that might
not be the case. I don't know.
DeAnn Knighton (15:31):
You mentioned regret earlier and thinking on
that a little bit as it relatesto this topic. Because
everything feels divisive in thesense that it's like one bucket
or the other, we miss thisopportunity to catch people or
help people sooner in the cycle.
And so I think it's really keythat we're creating workplace
(15:51):
environments that feel likethey're accepting of whatever
that choice might be. And then Ithink the benefit of that is
then for people who are reallystruggling with this issue, or
who maybe are dealing withcomorbidity with other issues,
that it provides also a havenfor them when they come back to
(16:12):
work, and they're trying torebuild their lives and recover.
That's the other beautifulresult of doing all of this work
at the gray area and corporatelevel is that trickles down. And
I've talked with people who areon the spectrum of alcohol use
disorder that I am, what I canshare with them or relate to
(16:33):
them on is that so many of mychoices and things that led me
to where I was were the same astheirs, you know, I was living
in the same culture. But you canthrow in some genetics, some
other comorbidity, things thatare going on in my life put me
in exactly the same situationthat they were in. But for me,
it ended up over here. And forother people, maybe on the
(16:55):
spectrum, they end up over here.
But to your point, these aren'tas far away as we think, right
in terms of being able to worktogether and move things
forward. Be interested inhearing about UK trends in
general, I know, there's a fewthings you talked about that I
was really drawn to, inparticular this protected class
(17:18):
idea that is brewing.
Janet Hadley (17:20):
It's interesting.
I mean, I'm not an employmentlawyer, just put it out there.
So I can't give any legal advicetimes are definitely changing.
And obviously, we have protectedcharacteristics, as I'm sure you
do in the states that employersare not allowed to discriminate
on the basis of so everyoneknows there's race, there's
gender, there's age, there's anumber of them. And alcohol use
disorder is not is actuallyspecifically called out in the
(17:42):
Discrimination Act, or whateverit's called as not being
included. I'm not tiring allemployers with this brush by any
means. But there's certainlybeen a tendency to brush alcohol
abuse issues under the carpet.
And say, if somebody fails analcohol test at work, it's just
straight to dismissal. Or ifsomebody everyone knows they've
(18:05):
got an alcohol issue, so we'lljust get rid of them. We'll just
wait for them to be late enoughtimes and then we'll get rid of
them for lateness. There's noprotection there for the person
who has the alcohol use issueunder the discrimination act and
alcohol change UK arecampaigning to change that. And
to make alcohol use disorder aprotected characteristic in the
(18:26):
same way that like depression isclassed as a disability. But
employers do need to be reallycareful because although alcohol
use disorder isn't a protectedcategory, things that might
result from having an alcoholuse disorder are so depression
for example, and anxiety couldbe classed as disabilities and
(18:47):
could be protected. And there'sa bit of a chicken and egg there
isn't there which one cause theother so you just need to be
careful,
DeAnn Knighton (18:53):
quick and important distinction. The
American with Disabilities Actensures that people with
disabilities including peoplewith addiction to alcohol have
the same rights andopportunities as everyone else.
These protections also apply topeople who experience
prescription drug use disorderand opioid use disorder. Sober
(19:15):
positive workplace a division ofshow up and stay is a nonprofit
on a mission to helporganizations bridge the
recovery gap, a space thatexists for individuals between
healing from a substance andhealing their lives. We partner
with organizations to build moreinclusive environments that
reflect an investment in soberpositivity and awareness. These
(19:39):
organizations are normalizederrs, pushing back against
stigma and doing their part tochange the social consciousness.
For more information, pleasevisit our website. Sober
positive workplace that work nowback to the show.
Janet Hadley (19:55):
There's other issues that arise around
inclusion. So I think there'llbe He sensed that there will be
a big case at some point.
Because a lot of the employersthat I go into when I do this
work, I'm approached bypredominantly Muslim women who
were in the workplace, andthey've never drunk. And they
tell me that they are so gladthat I'm here doing this work,
because they have always feltexcluded. And they felt that
(20:18):
promotions go to the in crowdwho are down the pub drinking
with the managers, that theyeven haven't been told about
certain announcements in smallerorganizations. So everyone will
be talking about some change.
And they'll say, when did thatget announced? I didn't hear
about it. And I go, Oh, youweren't there. Yeah, it was when
(20:40):
we're in the pub. And, you know,the boss told us and yeah, and
they just feel this real senseof having to pedal that little
bit harder, because they're notin that drinking culture. And
it's just another strand in the,in the overall picture of how
certain groups of people arefinding it much harder to get
(21:00):
into the most senior jobs, Ithink that's a really important
angle for employers to consider.
And at some point, someone isgoing to win a case where they
say, I was discriminatedagainst, because every single
social event included alcohol,which is against my religious
beliefs, and therefore I couldnever go. And that's
discrimination. It will happen.
(21:22):
I'm sure,
DeAnn Knighton (21:23):
it will happen.
Yeah, so I'm actually from SaltLake City, Utah. And I don't
know if you're familiar withUtah, but we are predominantly
Mormon part of the US. So I canrelate to what you're saying,
from the standpoint of Mormonculture here. And people in my
life, people I know, in myfamily, that are Mormon, who
have actually experienced a verysimilar thing at work, in the
(21:44):
sense that they don't drink forreligious reasons. But then it
does change the scope of howthey have to approach their job
and same experience of feelingleft out it can exist in that
regard as well. I think that'san important distinction. We've
been talking alcohol usedisorder. But is it specifically
only alcohol use disorder? Orwould it contain substance use?
Janet Hadley (22:08):
Basically, question, actually, and I'm not
sure because the campaign isbeing run by alcohol change UK
who specifically campaign aroundalcohol issues. So I think that
that's the campaign that they'regetting after, but I would not
be surprised if they aresuccessful. I would not be at
all surprised if it's bundled intogether. I guess the big
(22:28):
difference is that alcohol islegal and it's marketed to you,
isn't it? That's the that's thebiggest difference. To become
addicted to alcohol, you couldjust be following the adverts
prescription
DeAnn Knighton (22:38):
drug and alcohol abuse, they kind of end up
oftentimes, mashing together. Sothe medication and then you're
drinking on top of that
Janet Hadley (22:47):
so many people drink and on medication that's
recommended to not drink on andall that sort of stuff. Yeah.
DeAnn Knighton (22:54):
Janet is not only someone who knows a lot
about this subject. She is alsosomeone who has committed her
work to it. She is the founderof choose sunrise. She is also
an accredited sober club coachwith over 20 years experience in
senior management positions inthe UK. Janet recognizes that
(23:17):
there are millions of gray areadrinkers in every workplace who
are afraid to ask for support,they need to help them reset
their relationship with alcohol.
That's why Janet created thealcohol safe workplace
accreditation program and workswith organizations in the UK to
get this program off the ground.
Janet Hadley (23:37):
I'm so excited about this. So I've taken all
the learnings from working withemployers over the last couple
of years and put them into a setof 12 standards that an employer
would need to meet in order toachieve the status of alcohol
safe workplaces. No, it doesnot. Yeah, it does not.
DeAnn Knighton (23:57):
And that DOES not mean alcohol free!
Janet Hadley (23:59):
Exactly. Yeah, you can still have alcohol. It's
okay. I didn't want to stoppeople drinking. That'd be a
bit. It's clear now that I'vealready time supply. Stop other
(24:22):
people. Oh, that's fair, isn'tit? So we define an alcohol safe
workplace as a workplace whereeverybody is included as a drink
or not. And that anyone who asksfor help with alcohol use
receives appropriate support.
And to get to that there are 12standards. I won't go through
them all but they cover policy.
(24:43):
They cover culture. They covereducation, and they cover
support for individuals. I'mjust assembling at the moment my
panel of experts so I'mannouncing them one a week on
LinkedIn at the moment and thenI'll do like a big announcement
of the full panel in September.
But I'm really excited, I've gotsome great people signed up to
support the standards. Sothey're putting their names to
(25:05):
it. And they're going to besigning off the evidence that
employers submit, in order toget the accredited status. If
there's an annual review processfor all employers make sure that
they're delivering continuousimprovement in this space. And
I've also partnered with a thirdparty called 10 Space who are
(25:26):
like, they do employeeengagement surveys, they really
measure, they're going to behelping me with measuring the
impact. So as part of theaccreditation, you will get like
a pre accreditation survey and apost accreditation survey. The
results that we're reallylooking for, are how people
within the organization feelthat they are being looked after
(25:47):
how psychologically safe theyfeel to talk about issues that
they have. And even just simplequestions like, I feel that my
organization has a responsibleattitude towards alcohol, those
sorts of things. I'd likeemployers to look at some of the
statistics around absence,productivity, which not, it's
(26:08):
not always that easy to measure.
But also lacking, especially inhealth and safety, critical
industry is looking at rates ofaccidents and incidents, because
it will lower the risk of thosethings happening. An estimate
from I think it's the USorganization, actually, the
Institute of alcohol studies,that estimates that 40% of all
(26:32):
workplace accidents are alcoholrelated, which, and it's not
necessarily drinking on the job,it's the feeling tired and not
on it with the hangovers can beobviously really, really
dangerous.
DeAnn Knighton (26:51):
Yeah, I could definitely see that. And then
there's also to just that uglycorrelation with sexual assault
or sexual harassment.
Janet Hadley (27:00):
50% of all sexual harassment claims in the
workplace involve alcohol, itdoesn't bring out the best in
people.
DeAnn Knighton (27:09):
We have an organization here in the States
called WeWork. I don't know ifyou've heard of WeWork. It was a
company that basically grew upover the last 10 years that
started in New York City, butspace that was available and
tried to create these sort ofshared work environments. And
part of that was centered arounda shared community space that
(27:29):
had taps to taps fit as a perk.
Janet Hadley (27:32):
Oh, yeah, yeah,
DeAnn Knighton (27:33):
trying to draw and younger entering the
workforce crowd. It's justinteresting that even that
organization in the last coupleof years has eliminated pulled
those out as a benefit, becauseof what we just talked about,
they had issues, that they justcouldn't carry that liability
anymore. They just couldn't havethat be a reason that those
(27:56):
types of behaviors werehappening.
Janet Hadley (27:58):
You're the head of Lloyd's of London, I'm sure like
a big insurance. Basically,underwriters in London, like
huge, corporate, you know,financial, very traditional sort
of boozy lunches and takingclients out. And I've got a mate
who works there. And he, heactually had gout, which is
quite incredible, like, in the21st century, because eating so
(28:20):
much rich food and drink so muchwine, taking clients out,
basically. And they've recentlybanned all daytime, workplace
drinking, which is a huge move.
I mean, I say recently, as acouple of years ago now, but
it's a huge, huge indication ofhow things are changing. And
culturally saying that,actually, this isn't inclusive,
and it isn't okay to be doingyour job, like half cut all
(28:42):
afternoon. It's not okayanymore. I think things will
change significantly in thebanking and insurance sectors as
a result of Lloyds kind ofleading the way on that.
DeAnn Knighton (28:54):
Obviously, I think of the sales and marketing
world, just that's mybackground. And I'm like, I
think that there's probablygoing to be maybe more
resistance. That's also a placewhere I think at least some
types of shift would be reallypowerful.
Janet Hadley (29:05):
I mean, it depends on the organization, doesn't it?
So not all organizationsactually want a diverse
workforce. So I was talking toan HR professional the other day
who gave me this acronym, am Iallowed to swear on your
podcast? Oh, please? Yes. Soyeah, she called it Feefo. Which
means fit in or foot off?
Fairness. Yeah. And they havelike a Feefo culture where like,
(29:26):
everyone here drinks, everyoneis between 20 and 30. They're
all good looking. They're allskinny. They all go out
drinking. That's it. Like wedon't recruit people who are not
in that demographic. So, youknow, it's not going to be for
everyone, this alcohol saveworkplace accreditation. I
wouldn't even think aboutknocking on their door and
asking them if they want ifthey're interested in it. It's
(29:47):
larger organizations whoactually need to think about
diversity and inclusion.
DeAnn Knighton (29:54):
That actually leads me to the next thing I
wanted to ask you about the ideaof organizations building peer
groups within the organization Ithink is such a powerful tool. I
know, Salesforce here in the UShas sober force, that is their
own group that is supportive ofthis idea. And I It sounds like
you maybe spearheaded oneyourself
Janet Hadley (30:14):
when I was working in the coop in my corporate job.
And I decided to set up a sobercurious society because I had
been talking in my own workplaceabout my drinking. And I was
getting a sense that there wasmore people who might be
interested in this. And I set itup on Eventbrite, I put 15
places I thought that'd be aboutright, it had a certain side
room, and someone emailed meabout 10 minutes after I
(30:35):
published it and said, it saysthat it's sold out. And I said,
Oh, I must have set it up wrong.
Let me have a look. And I waslike, No 15 People have booked.
So I changed it to 999, just tosee how many people were booked
in and 78 people booked in forthe first meeting. So I had to
move it to be on Zoom, I justdidn't expect it to be anything
like that number out of maybe acouple of 1000 people who work
at that office, it's beenbrilliant. We've met monthly,
(30:58):
and I started by sharing mystory. And then I brought in a
guest for the second month. Andthen every other month from then
on has just been someone fromthe group sharing their story.
And actually, just before Ijumped on this call with you, I
got an email from somebody fromthe coop saying, I'm six and a
half months sober, all my achingjoints have gone, I feel like
(31:20):
I'm living my life the way Iwant it to thank you so much for
being the inspiration to get mestarted. You know, and I
actually I had a note fromanother colleague a few weeks
ago, who said, I've been tryingto get pregnant for three years,
I knew that alcohol might be themissing link, but I didn't
really know what to do about it,or how to approach it. And I
(31:41):
started going to your sessions,and I'm sitting here, and I'm
six months sober and threemonths pregnant. And thank you.
And I just think, you know,what, what more do you need is
evidence really, even if you canjust help a handful of people,
it might be a small number ofpeople, but it's a huge impact
for them. Absolutely huge, likethat is life changing. It's such
an easy thing to do, I do aservice where I will come into
(32:06):
your workplace and run it foryou. And I'm also happy to hand
it back over to you, if you'vegot somebody who wants to run
it, you know, I'll come in andset it up for you. And then when
you're up and running, I'll stepaway. It's not a money making
thing for me, I just think it'sso doable.
DeAnn Knighton (32:26):
There are so many amazing people in recovery,
people who are really proud tobe sober. For me, it's up there
with my greatestaccomplishments. In my mind, I
love talking about it. I'll talkto people about this all day,
I've actually learned how totemper that a little bit.
Because not everybody wants todocument and all that out Yeah,
(32:46):
but that's the beautiful thingabout engaging people from that
community who who could be apart of building that up within
the organization and are happyto do it, and are out loud about
who
Janet Hadley (32:57):
they are. Exactly.
It's really low cost, and itbuilt its own momentum. And it
can be yours for your workplace.
I think it's a really big perk,actually, for a job. Most
workplaces have the largercompanies anyway, they will have
organizations that you can jointhat are for parents or for
women, or for just returning formoney for lots of different
(33:19):
groups. There's not that manywho have like a sober Society of
some kind, but I think therewill be a lot more of them in
the future. And I would reallyencourage you, if you're in a
position to start one up, justgo for it. Because it's been the
most rewarding thing I've doneat work in my whole career. It
really is. That's awesome.
DeAnn Knighton (33:37):
I love it. Well, thank you so much for being here
with us today. Let's go aheadand have you wrap us up and tell
us where people can find outmore about your work and
anything else that you wouldwant to share before we close
up.
Janet Hadley (33:51):
Oh, thank you.
Yes. So you can find me onLinkedIn, Janet Hadley, and you
can find by website, choosesunrise.co.uk or just Google
alcohol safe workplace actually,that'd be great Google our call
safe workplace and then find mebecause I need to move up those
rankings. You can find me onlineand on LinkedIn at the main
places
DeAnn Knighton (34:08):
I have a term that I like to use for people
like you, which is a positiveterm. And for anyone I think,
who like does this type of workwithin their organization is
normalizer. So I want to thankyou for being a normalizer I
think it is such a powerfulthing, like I talked about
earlier, even beyond that grayarea drinking group, there is
(34:29):
such a massive impact that ithas on this broader issue of
addiction. I appreciate all ofthe work that you're doing. And
I just really appreciate youbeing with us today.
Janet Hadley (34:41):
Oh, and thank you so much for inviting me on to be
your guest. It's so lovely thatyou reached out from all the way
across the other side of theworld. To find out more about
what we're doing. So thank youfor that.
DeAnn Knighton (34:51):
For more information, please visit our
w (34:53):
soberpositiveworkplace.org or showupandstay.org. This podcast
is written created and producedby DeAnn Knighton, featuring
music from the wickedly talentedKatie Hare
(35:19):
nice nicely done. How do youfeel?
Janet Hadley (35:23):
Yeah, good. Really good.
Oh, hello. This is the sober positive workplace
series brought to you by show upand stay. I'm your host Deann
Knighton.
Oh, hello, and welcome back. I'mso glad you're here. This is our
(00:26):
second episode in our soberpositive workplace series
officially.
I'm really excited to introduceyou to my guests today. But
before I do that, I'm actuallygoing to bring in a little bit
of a throwback clip from anepisode of the shelf and a
podcast I did a couple of monthsago. I feel like it really
(00:49):
frames up the conversation I'mabout to have with our guests.
So take a listen. And then whenwe come back, you'll get a
chance to meet Janet
Mad Men Clip (01:00):
Daily friendship with that bottle attracts more
people to advertising than anysalary you could dream up.
That's why I got in.
DeAnn Knighton (01:07):
This is a clip from madmen, which aired on AMC
from the year 2007 to 2015.
Mad Men Clip (01:14):
So enjoy it. Do my best here. Not only had a drink
your whole generation drink forthe wrong reasons.
DeAnn Knighton (01:22):
You're listening to Roger Sterling, played by
John Slattery. As he iseducating his younger
counterpart on Draper, played byJon Hamm.
Mad Men Clip (01:35):
My generation we drink because it's good. Because
it feels better than unbuttoningyour collar. Because we deserve
it
DeAnn Knighton (01:43):
on why his generation drink because it's
what mento seems to understandsomething better. And Don's What
about shaky hands, I see a lotof that too, with your boys.
Mad Men Clip (01:52):
No joke. You're kind with your gloomy thoughts
and your worries. You're allbusy licking some imaginary
wound. Not all imaginary.
DeAnn Knighton (02:02):
I watched madmen at the height of my drinking
career. And I remember placing alot of glorification around what
I saw on the screen, portrayingthe 1960s and showing us that,
like crap, what we do now as itrelates to alcohol in the
workplace, is nothing comparedto what they did in 1960. Then,
(02:24):
on the same note, as someonewho's struggling at the time,
with substance use disorder,finding some sort of refuge in
this understanding, some sort ofHall Pass for the way that I
drink. A lot of my drinking wastied to my work, and I took a
lot of pride in my ability todrink often and drink a lot. Too
(02:46):
much pride, I'm afraid.
According to an article in TheAtlantic, called drinking too
much is an American problem.
They describe the fact that from1999 to 2017, the number of
alcohol related deaths hasdoubled to more than 70,000 a
(03:08):
year. And when I hear RogerSterling lecturing Don, on the
softness of his generation feelsa little too familiar to
conversations I hear floating inthe air these days. America's
relationship with alcohol isextreme. We overcompensate and
(03:33):
make drastic adjustments. Butthen in these drastic
adjustments, we somehow seem tosee the same problems cycling
back, but worse.
Janet Hadley (03:45):
When I first stopped drinking, we were in
lockdown in 2020. Actually, Ithink I was quite lucky in a way
because I didn't have to tellanyone for a little while. One
of my big big fears was tellingpeople that I wasn't drinking
anymore
DeAnn Knighton (04:00):
This is Janet Hadley,
Janet Hadley (04:01):
it was so wrapped up with my identity. I was the
party girl. I was the life andsoul of the party, the last
person to go home on every nightout. I even had an award from my
team at work. I'm their boss,and they gave me an award for
being the most drunk person atthe Christmas party. What do you
know, that was me.
DeAnn Knighton (04:20):
Janet lives in northern England in the town of
Leeds. She is a mom of threeteenagers, and successful
business person and amateurpianist. In her words, she had a
family, a career, a nice house,good schools and all the outward
signs of success. Yet sheregularly used to ache at 3am
(04:42):
Dry mouth head banging andpromising herself she'd learned
to moderate her drinking. Andluckily, she was able to build a
new path and started where Ifeel like the best thing start
by telling her story.
Janet Hadley (04:58):
I was described as a happy drunk and no one ever
seemed to think of it as beingany kind of issue. I knew it was
an issue. And when I stopped, Iwas actually really scared of
telling my work team that I'dstopped. And it was quite a
while that was when thingsstarted to open up again, I went
back into the office, and we hadthis kind of all day session
(05:19):
with the team because we hadn'tseen each other for months. And
I told them then, and I ended uptelling them like a much longer
story than I was intending to,they were just captivated by it,
and just sort of going, Wow,thank you for sharing that. And,
yeah, of course, we'll supportyou. And we won't try and cajole
you into drinking. And, youknow, it was so different to the
(05:40):
fear that I'd had, it reallykind of empowered me, it made me
think, well, you know, if I cantell that story and get support,
like maybe I can help otherpeople in this workplace by
talking more widely about it,and I sort of started with the
people immediately around me.
And then being in quite a seniorjob, I got, like bigger and
bigger audiences within theorganization. I mean, it's a
(06:02):
huge organization. And that'show it started, really. And I
started getting emails, the bitsthat they relate to the term
gray area drinking, I think, isreally helpful for people. So we
all have this black and whitethinking of normal drinkers and
alcoholics until we stop andquestion it. And then of course,
you realize that it's not likethat. There's a huge gray area,
(06:25):
and it really helps people. AndI think the reason why that
really helps people is becausethe stigma that surrounds
alcoholism, means that it's sohard to put your hand up and say
I've got a problem. But it's alot easier to put your hand up
and say, I might be in the grayarea. I think that's one of the
things that actually probably,nearly everyone I speak to
(06:48):
relates to. And the other bitthat's always relatable is the
mummy wine culture. Not surewhat it's like where you are,
but in the UK, and I know inAustralia as well, from people I
know over there, it's just rife,and all over the internet, the
memes, the sort of big wineglass that says small glass,
medium, glass, mom's glass, allthat stuff, people really relate
(07:11):
to that. And so many people findthat they're big drinkers, they
go out, they party, and thenthey have children, and suddenly
they sort of bring the partyhome. And it's like getting
drunk in the evenings after thekids have gone to bed to feel a
bit more like your old self. Andthat's how it can start to kind
of feel like a problem. Well, Iguess it's getting woken up at
(07:31):
four in the morning by screamingbaby, when you've got hungover
as no one talks about that.
DeAnn Knighton (07:37):
Yeah, then, you know, how can you even be
present for anything in thatcapacity? And, yeah, it's just
kind of surviving from one stateof being to the next state of
being instead of actuallyliving,
Janet Hadley (07:51):
I try to live without regrets. But I do
sometimes look back on when mychildren were very young, and
think I really wish I'd donethis sooner. Because I would
rush through bedtime stories toget down, I could almost hear
the cork coming out of the wine,like, there would be one parent
reading to the children and theother one drinking wine, and you
always want it to be the otherone. And that's not right. You
(08:14):
know, that was really precioustime, though, to be spending
with them. And I think if I'dstopped drinking sooner, I would
have really cherished that timeinstead of rushing through it,
and been a lot more present. AndI feel that that would have
benefited all of us. And it'ssomething that you know, if
anyone's listening who has youngchildren, like really do
consider what life might belike, if you just remove alcohol
(08:36):
from the equation, you probablydon't believe me, but you will
find more joy in normal things.
That's the big difference.
DeAnn Knighton (08:54):
I am interested in what you were saying around
gray area drinking and I thinkwe are very similar in a lot of
ways work was my life. Iinvested everything into a sales
career very much party girlparty culture, and work hard,
play hard, but I had all kindsof other underlying things going
on along the way. Everythingalways felt harder for me. I
(09:14):
struggled withcompartmentalizing work from the
rest of my life, it kind ofbecame everything. And then
alcohol got wrapped up into kindof the sadness of all of that.
And it just became a problemmore and more over a 20 year
period. I also share with youthat I just could not imagine
living the life I was living atthat time without alcohol being
(09:36):
a part of it. It was just alwaysa part of who I was I had over
identified with it. What I thinkis interesting, as we look at
this shift, there's two thingsgoing on. It's reaching out to
the gray area drinkers that arein the workplace that are
thinking who maybe it's once ina while they're asking
themselves is my drinkingproblem, you know, or like going
(09:59):
in taking the quiz in secret,but then it all feels so scary
and overwhelming because I wentthrough that. But I never knew
that there was any sort ofmiddle road, I always felt that
the road was extreme, right. Andin my case, it actually ended up
being extreme, I had to dotreatment and the whole thing,
which I don't regret for asecond, it's changed my life.
(10:20):
But I think about this problemconstantly in terms of that
divide between all of thesepeople who may be in a space
where it feels uncomfortable,but then not sure what that
other identity looks like thework that you're doing is so
powerful, in the sense that itcan help show people that you
can have a full life. Andwhether or not you want to
(10:40):
identify as somebody withalcoholism or not, it really
doesn't matter at the end of theday. Where do you feel like when
we look at this divide thatexists, one of the things I
heard you speak about that Ithought was really powerful was
that slogan of drinkresponsibly, which I feel like
definitely sums up this issue interms of that shame and stigma
(11:04):
creation. And I'd love for youto talk about how that type of
messaging the type of damagethat it has on a trickle down.
Janet Hadley (11:12):
I've spent a lot of time thinking about stigma,
and researching stigma and whyit exists. And what I've learned
is stigma is a result of ourevolution. So we have evolved to
put people into groups becausethat's really useful. So if we
put people into groups of thetribe we belong to, and the
(11:33):
tribe we don't belong to, thenwe know who will help us care
for our children. And we knowwho will look after us when
we're sick. And over themillennia of human evolution.
Stigma has actually evolved fromthis, authoring this grouping of
people. And obviously, it doeshelp us because you can't know
(11:54):
everybody. And so you do bunchpeople up into groups, you
divide them. And that's really,really useful. But a really on
useful, almost like unintendedconsequence of it, it creates
blind spots for gray areas. Soas we said earlier, this kind of
black and white thinking aboutpeople who have a problem with
(12:14):
alcohol, and people who don't,we know that we're not waking up
in a skip, we know that we don'tdrink vodka in the mornings, we
know that we're not a tramp on apark bench. So therefore, we
know that we're not analcoholic. That's kind of how a
lot of people feel. So they'relike, I'm not an alcoholic, I
just, I just have this constantworry that I might be drinking
(12:36):
too much. And you don't identifythem with the services, a lot of
the services are developed forpeople who've really become like
physically dependent uponalcohol, or like have developed
what in the UK is now beingcalled an alcohol use disorder.
Whereas I think that we canprevent a lot of harm by
reaching people who are in thisgray area in between. And I
(12:59):
think that this stigma needs tobe reduced in order to help
people to put their hand up alittle bit sooner and say, I
might need a bit of help. At theend of the day. If you develop
an issue, becoming addicted toan addictive substance that's
been marketed to you throughyour whole life, you know, how
is that something to be ashamedof.
DeAnn Knighton (13:22):
Although there's some competing data around who
has a bigger problem withalcohol, the US or the UK,
depending on how you look at theequation. One thing is for sure
that both countries fall wellabove the global average of
4.9%. For prevalence of alcoholuse disorder. For both
(13:44):
countries, alcohol is consideredthe number one risk factor for
premature death of individualsages 25 to 49. Both of us have
seen notable and upsettingincreases in the amount of
problematic drinking amongstwomen.
Janet Hadley (14:07):
I've got a mate who tells he always says alcohol
is 4% ethanol and 96% marketing.
I love that because it's thissense that the responsibility is
on us to drink responsibly, isjust feeding into that ordering.
So oh, there's a few poor peoplewho can't handle them. And they
have to always take it too far.
(14:28):
And they're over there in another category that you'll never
be in there. The alcoholics,you're fine, you're over here,
we can keep southern ouralcohol. And that drink
responsibly message from theindustry is feeding of the
stigma. And what I really wantto do is to talk more openly
about what it feels like to beon the way into a proper full on
(14:52):
full blown alcohol issue. Andhelp people identify that they
may be starting to see some ofthose warning signs and And to
help them realize that it isokay to ask for help. And that
if we could reach more people inthat area, and I'm not even
saying you need to stop drinkingforever, have a break, or become
(15:12):
a flexi drinker, where you haveone glass of wine, and then you
have a glass of alcohol freewine for the rest of the
evening. There's other ways thanjust having to stop completely.
For me, nothing is so mucheasier than a little bit of
alcohol. But maybe if I'daddressed it sooner, that might
not be the case. I don't know.
DeAnn Knighton (15:31):
You mentioned regret earlier and thinking on
that a little bit as it relatesto this topic. Because
everything feels divisive in thesense that it's like one bucket
or the other, we miss thisopportunity to catch people or
help people sooner in the cycle.
And so I think it's really keythat we're creating workplace
(15:51):
environments that feel likethey're accepting of whatever
that choice might be. And then Ithink the benefit of that is
then for people who are reallystruggling with this issue, or
who maybe are dealing withcomorbidity with other issues,
that it provides also a havenfor them when they come back to
(16:12):
work, and they're trying torebuild their lives and recover.
That's the other beautifulresult of doing all of this work
at the gray area and corporatelevel is that trickles down. And
I've talked with people who areon the spectrum of alcohol use
disorder that I am, what I canshare with them or relate to
(16:33):
them on is that so many of mychoices and things that led me
to where I was were the same astheirs, you know, I was living
in the same culture. But you canthrow in some genetics, some
other comorbidity, things thatare going on in my life put me
in exactly the same situationthat they were in. But for me,
it ended up over here. And forother people, maybe on the
(16:55):
spectrum, they end up over here.
But to your point, these aren'tas far away as we think, right
in terms of being able to worktogether and move things
forward. Be interested inhearing about UK trends in
general, I know, there's a fewthings you talked about that I
was really drawn to, inparticular this protected class
(17:18):
idea that is brewing.
Janet Hadley (17:20):
It's interesting.
I mean, I'm not an employmentlawyer, just put it out there.
So I can't give any legal advicetimes are definitely changing.
And obviously, we have protectedcharacteristics, as I'm sure you
do in the states that employersare not allowed to discriminate
on the basis of so everyoneknows there's race, there's
gender, there's age, there's anumber of them. And alcohol use
disorder is not is actuallyspecifically called out in the
(17:42):
Discrimination Act, or whateverit's called as not being
included. I'm not tiring allemployers with this brush by any
means. But there's certainlybeen a tendency to brush alcohol
abuse issues under the carpet.
And say, if somebody fails analcohol test at work, it's just
straight to dismissal. Or ifsomebody everyone knows they've
(18:05):
got an alcohol issue, so we'lljust get rid of them. We'll just
wait for them to be late enoughtimes and then we'll get rid of
them for lateness. There's noprotection there for the person
who has the alcohol use issueunder the discrimination act and
alcohol change UK arecampaigning to change that. And
to make alcohol use disorder aprotected characteristic in the
(18:26):
same way that like depression isclassed as a disability. But
employers do need to be reallycareful because although alcohol
use disorder isn't a protectedcategory, things that might
result from having an alcoholuse disorder are so depression
for example, and anxiety couldbe classed as disabilities and
(18:47):
could be protected. And there'sa bit of a chicken and egg there
isn't there which one cause theother so you just need to be
careful,
DeAnn Knighton (18:53):
quick and important distinction. The
American with Disabilities Actensures that people with
disabilities including peoplewith addiction to alcohol have
the same rights andopportunities as everyone else.
These protections also apply topeople who experience
prescription drug use disorderand opioid use disorder. Sober
(19:15):
positive workplace a division ofshow up and stay is a nonprofit
on a mission to helporganizations bridge the
recovery gap, a space thatexists for individuals between
healing from a substance andhealing their lives. We partner
with organizations to build moreinclusive environments that
reflect an investment in soberpositivity and awareness. These
(19:39):
organizations are normalizederrs, pushing back against
stigma and doing their part tochange the social consciousness.
For more information, pleasevisit our website. Sober
positive workplace that work nowback to the show.
Janet Hadley (19:55):
There's other issues that arise around
inclusion. So I think there'llbe He sensed that there will be
a big case at some point.
Because a lot of the employersthat I go into when I do this
work, I'm approached bypredominantly Muslim women who
were in the workplace, andthey've never drunk. And they
tell me that they are so gladthat I'm here doing this work,
because they have always feltexcluded. And they felt that
(20:18):
promotions go to the in crowdwho are down the pub drinking
with the managers, that theyeven haven't been told about
certain announcements in smallerorganizations. So everyone will
be talking about some change.
And they'll say, when did thatget announced? I didn't hear
about it. And I go, Oh, youweren't there. Yeah, it was when
(20:40):
we're in the pub. And, you know,the boss told us and yeah, and
they just feel this real senseof having to pedal that little
bit harder, because they're notin that drinking culture. And
it's just another strand in the,in the overall picture of how
certain groups of people arefinding it much harder to get
(21:00):
into the most senior jobs, Ithink that's a really important
angle for employers to consider.
And at some point, someone isgoing to win a case where they
say, I was discriminatedagainst, because every single
social event included alcohol,which is against my religious
beliefs, and therefore I couldnever go. And that's
discrimination. It will happen.
(21:22):
I'm sure,
DeAnn Knighton (21:23):
it will happen.
Yeah, so I'm actually from SaltLake City, Utah. And I don't
know if you're familiar withUtah, but we are predominantly
Mormon part of the US. So I canrelate to what you're saying,
from the standpoint of Mormonculture here. And people in my
life, people I know, in myfamily, that are Mormon, who
have actually experienced a verysimilar thing at work, in the
(21:44):
sense that they don't drink forreligious reasons. But then it
does change the scope of howthey have to approach their job
and same experience of feelingleft out it can exist in that
regard as well. I think that'san important distinction. We've
been talking alcohol usedisorder. But is it specifically
only alcohol use disorder? Orwould it contain substance use?
Janet Hadley (22:08):
Basically, question, actually, and I'm not
sure because the campaign isbeing run by alcohol change UK
who specifically campaign aroundalcohol issues. So I think that
that's the campaign that they'regetting after, but I would not
be surprised if they aresuccessful. I would not be at
all surprised if it's bundled intogether. I guess the big
(22:28):
difference is that alcohol islegal and it's marketed to you,
isn't it? That's the that's thebiggest difference. To become
addicted to alcohol, you couldjust be following the adverts
prescription
DeAnn Knighton (22:38):
drug and alcohol abuse, they kind of end up
oftentimes, mashing together. Sothe medication and then you're
drinking on top of that
Janet Hadley (22:47):
so many people drink and on medication that's
recommended to not drink on andall that sort of stuff. Yeah.
DeAnn Knighton (22:54):
Janet is not only someone who knows a lot
about this subject. She is alsosomeone who has committed her
work to it. She is the founderof choose sunrise. She is also
an accredited sober club coachwith over 20 years experience in
senior management positions inthe UK. Janet recognizes that
(23:17):
there are millions of gray areadrinkers in every workplace who
are afraid to ask for support,they need to help them reset
their relationship with alcohol.
That's why Janet created thealcohol safe workplace
accreditation program and workswith organizations in the UK to
get this program off the ground.
Janet Hadley (23:37):
I'm so excited about this. So I've taken all
the learnings from working withemployers over the last couple
of years and put them into a setof 12 standards that an employer
would need to meet in order toachieve the status of alcohol
safe workplaces. No, it doesnot. Yeah, it does not.
DeAnn Knighton (23:57):
And that DOES not mean alcohol free!
Janet Hadley (23:59):
Exactly. Yeah, you can still have alcohol. It's
okay. I didn't want to stoppeople drinking. That'd be a
bit. It's clear now that I'vealready time supply. Stop other
(24:22):
people. Oh, that's fair, isn'tit? So we define an alcohol safe
workplace as a workplace whereeverybody is included as a drink
or not. And that anyone who asksfor help with alcohol use
receives appropriate support.
And to get to that there are 12standards. I won't go through
them all but they cover policy.
(24:43):
They cover culture. They covereducation, and they cover
support for individuals. I'mjust assembling at the moment my
panel of experts so I'mannouncing them one a week on
LinkedIn at the moment and thenI'll do like a big announcement
of the full panel in September.
But I'm really excited, I've gotsome great people signed up to
support the standards. Sothey're putting their names to
(25:05):
it. And they're going to besigning off the evidence that
employers submit, in order toget the accredited status. If
there's an annual review processfor all employers make sure that
they're delivering continuousimprovement in this space. And
I've also partnered with a thirdparty called 10 Space who are
(25:26):
like, they do employeeengagement surveys, they really
measure, they're going to behelping me with measuring the
impact. So as part of theaccreditation, you will get like
a pre accreditation survey and apost accreditation survey. The
results that we're reallylooking for, are how people
within the organization feelthat they are being looked after
(25:47):
how psychologically safe theyfeel to talk about issues that
they have. And even just simplequestions like, I feel that my
organization has a responsibleattitude towards alcohol, those
sorts of things. I'd likeemployers to look at some of the
statistics around absence,productivity, which not, it's
(26:08):
not always that easy to measure.
But also lacking, especially inhealth and safety, critical
industry is looking at rates ofaccidents and incidents, because
it will lower the risk of thosethings happening. An estimate
from I think it's the USorganization, actually, the
Institute of alcohol studies,that estimates that 40% of all
(26:32):
workplace accidents are alcoholrelated, which, and it's not
necessarily drinking on the job,it's the feeling tired and not
on it with the hangovers can beobviously really, really
dangerous.
DeAnn Knighton (26:51):
Yeah, I could definitely see that. And then
there's also to just that uglycorrelation with sexual assault
or sexual harassment.
Janet Hadley (27:00):
50% of all sexual harassment claims in the
workplace involve alcohol, itdoesn't bring out the best in
people.
DeAnn Knighton (27:09):
We have an organization here in the States
called WeWork. I don't know ifyou've heard of WeWork. It was a
company that basically grew upover the last 10 years that
started in New York City, butspace that was available and
tried to create these sort ofshared work environments. And
part of that was centered arounda shared community space that
(27:29):
had taps to taps fit as a perk.
Janet Hadley (27:32):
Oh, yeah, yeah,
DeAnn Knighton (27:33):
trying to draw and younger entering the
workforce crowd. It's justinteresting that even that
organization in the last coupleof years has eliminated pulled
those out as a benefit, becauseof what we just talked about,
they had issues, that they justcouldn't carry that liability
anymore. They just couldn't havethat be a reason that those
(27:56):
types of behaviors werehappening.
Janet Hadley (27:58):
You're the head of Lloyd's of London, I'm sure like
a big insurance. Basically,underwriters in London, like
huge, corporate, you know,financial, very traditional sort
of boozy lunches and takingclients out. And I've got a mate
who works there. And he, heactually had gout, which is
quite incredible, like, in the21st century, because eating so
(28:20):
much rich food and drink so muchwine, taking clients out,
basically. And they've recentlybanned all daytime, workplace
drinking, which is a huge move.
I mean, I say recently, as acouple of years ago now, but
it's a huge, huge indication ofhow things are changing. And
culturally saying that,actually, this isn't inclusive,
and it isn't okay to be doingyour job, like half cut all
(28:42):
afternoon. It's not okayanymore. I think things will
change significantly in thebanking and insurance sectors as
a result of Lloyds kind ofleading the way on that.
DeAnn Knighton (28:54):
Obviously, I think of the sales and marketing
world, just that's mybackground. And I'm like, I
think that there's probablygoing to be maybe more
resistance. That's also a placewhere I think at least some
types of shift would be reallypowerful.
Janet Hadley (29:05):
I mean, it depends on the organization, doesn't it?
So not all organizationsactually want a diverse
workforce. So I was talking toan HR professional the other day
who gave me this acronym, am Iallowed to swear on your
podcast? Oh, please? Yes. Soyeah, she called it Feefo. Which
means fit in or foot off?
Fairness. Yeah. And they havelike a Feefo culture where like,
(29:26):
everyone here drinks, everyoneis between 20 and 30. They're
all good looking. They're allskinny. They all go out
drinking. That's it. Like wedon't recruit people who are not
in that demographic. So, youknow, it's not going to be for
everyone, this alcohol saveworkplace accreditation. I
wouldn't even think aboutknocking on their door and
asking them if they want ifthey're interested in it. It's
(29:47):
larger organizations whoactually need to think about
diversity and inclusion.
DeAnn Knighton (29:54):
That actually leads me to the next thing I
wanted to ask you about the ideaof organizations building peer
groups within the organization Ithink is such a powerful tool. I
know, Salesforce here in the UShas sober force, that is their
own group that is supportive ofthis idea. And I It sounds like
you maybe spearheaded oneyourself
Janet Hadley (30:14):
when I was working in the coop in my corporate job.
And I decided to set up a sobercurious society because I had
been talking in my own workplaceabout my drinking. And I was
getting a sense that there wasmore people who might be
interested in this. And I set itup on Eventbrite, I put 15
places I thought that'd be aboutright, it had a certain side
room, and someone emailed meabout 10 minutes after I
(30:35):
published it and said, it saysthat it's sold out. And I said,
Oh, I must have set it up wrong.
Let me have a look. And I waslike, No 15 People have booked.
So I changed it to 999, just tosee how many people were booked
in and 78 people booked in forthe first meeting. So I had to
move it to be on Zoom, I justdidn't expect it to be anything
like that number out of maybe acouple of 1000 people who work
at that office, it's beenbrilliant. We've met monthly,
(30:58):
and I started by sharing mystory. And then I brought in a
guest for the second month. Andthen every other month from then
on has just been someone fromthe group sharing their story.
And actually, just before Ijumped on this call with you, I
got an email from somebody fromthe coop saying, I'm six and a
half months sober, all my achingjoints have gone, I feel like
(31:20):
I'm living my life the way Iwant it to thank you so much for
being the inspiration to get mestarted. You know, and I
actually I had a note fromanother colleague a few weeks
ago, who said, I've been tryingto get pregnant for three years,
I knew that alcohol might be themissing link, but I didn't
really know what to do about it,or how to approach it. And I
(31:41):
started going to your sessions,and I'm sitting here, and I'm
six months sober and threemonths pregnant. And thank you.
And I just think, you know,what, what more do you need is
evidence really, even if you canjust help a handful of people,
it might be a small number ofpeople, but it's a huge impact
for them. Absolutely huge, likethat is life changing. It's such
an easy thing to do, I do aservice where I will come into
(32:06):
your workplace and run it foryou. And I'm also happy to hand
it back over to you, if you'vegot somebody who wants to run
it, you know, I'll come in andset it up for you. And then when
you're up and running, I'll stepaway. It's not a money making
thing for me, I just think it'sso doable.
DeAnn Knighton (32:26):
There are so many amazing people in recovery,
people who are really proud tobe sober. For me, it's up there
with my greatestaccomplishments. In my mind, I
love talking about it. I'll talkto people about this all day,
I've actually learned how totemper that a little bit.
Because not everybody wants todocument and all that out Yeah,
(32:46):
but that's the beautiful thingabout engaging people from that
community who who could be apart of building that up within
the organization and are happyto do it, and are out loud about
who
Janet Hadley (32:57):
they are. Exactly.
It's really low cost, and itbuilt its own momentum. And it
can be yours for your workplace.
I think it's a really big perk,actually, for a job. Most
workplaces have the largercompanies anyway, they will have
organizations that you can jointhat are for parents or for
women, or for just returning formoney for lots of different
(33:19):
groups. There's not that manywho have like a sober Society of
some kind, but I think therewill be a lot more of them in
the future. And I would reallyencourage you, if you're in a
position to start one up, justgo for it. Because it's been the
most rewarding thing I've doneat work in my whole career. It
really is. That's awesome.
DeAnn Knighton (33:37):
I love it. Well, thank you so much for being here
with us today. Let's go aheadand have you wrap us up and tell
us where people can find outmore about your work and
anything else that you wouldwant to share before we close
up.
Janet Hadley (33:51):
Oh, thank you.
Yes. So you can find me onLinkedIn, Janet Hadley, and you
can find by website, choosesunrise.co.uk or just Google
alcohol safe workplace actually,that'd be great Google our call
safe workplace and then find mebecause I need to move up those
rankings. You can find me onlineand on LinkedIn at the main
places
DeAnn Knighton (34:08):
I have a term that I like to use for people
like you, which is a positiveterm. And for anyone I think,
who like does this type of workwithin their organization is
normalizer. So I want to thankyou for being a normalizer I
think it is such a powerfulthing, like I talked about
earlier, even beyond that grayarea drinking group, there is
(34:29):
such a massive impact that ithas on this broader issue of
addiction. I appreciate all ofthe work that you're doing. And
I just really appreciate youbeing with us today.
Janet Hadley (34:41):
Oh, and thank you so much for inviting me on to be
your guest. It's so lovely thatyou reached out from all the way
across the other side of theworld. To find out more about
what we're doing. So thank youfor that.
DeAnn Knighton (34:51):
For more information, please visit our
w (34:53):
soberpositiveworkplace.org or showupandstay.org. This podcast
is written created and producedby DeAnn Knighton, featuring
music from the wickedly talentedKatie Hare
(35:19):
nice nicely done. How do youfeel?
Janet Hadley (35:23):
Yeah, good. Really good.
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