October 1, 2024 • 48 mins
DeAnn Knighton and Heather Lowe discuss their experiences with sobriety and the benefits and potential challenges of navigating non-alcoholic social scenes. Heather shares her journey from a high-functioning drinker to a sober coach, emphasizing the importance of self-discovery and the role of non-alcoholic drinks in maintaining sobriety. They highlight the need for awareness and understanding of individual triggers and the benefits of normalizing sobriety for the broad range of individuals choosing sobriety, no matter the reason.
Action Items:
- Explore non-alcoholic beverage options that feel right for you, without pressure to replicate alcoholic drinks.
- Be mindful of your own responses and triggers when trying new non-alcoholic experiences, and don't hesitate to opt o-t if it doesn't feel comfortable.
- Consider different entry points to exploring your relationship with alcohol, whether it's moderation, abstinence, or something in between.
https://www.ditchedthedrink.com/blog/are-alcohol-free-drinks-good-for-me
To learn more about Heather and her work:
https://www.ditchedthedrink.com/
#soberpositiveworkplace #showupandstayorg #ditchedthedrink
If you have questions or comments or would like to be a guest on the Recovery Discovery Podcast, send an email to:
deann@showupandstay.org
More information about our project is available at:
https://www.showupandstay.org/
https://www.soberpositiveworkplace.org/
For podcast updates, follow us on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/showupandstayorg/
Music and Audio Production by Katie Hare.
https://www.hare.works
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
DeAnn Knighton (00:00):
Heather, it is so good to see you again and
talk to you again.
Heather Lowe (00:03):
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I absolutely
love what you're doing, so I'mthrilled to be here.
DeAnn Knighton (00:08):
Oh, they will same. I follow you. I have to
say, the thing that pops into myhead right now is the picture I
saw of you with ElizabethGilbert earlier this year on
LinkedIn. And I Yeah, there wassome definite social media envy
happening with that one,
Heather Lowe (00:24):
no doubt. I mean, it was literally a dream come
true to me. I mean, I look backat that picture and IP, young
girl all over again, over herand me just for being there in
the same picture together withher arm actually touching my
shoulder, right?
DeAnn Knighton (00:37):
It's amazing.
Okay, so here's my thing aboutthinking about those meetings is
my awkwardness comes up. I'mlike, what will I even say? How
will I not be weird? So I haveto, like, What did you say?
Heather Lowe (00:48):
Oh my gosh. I can't believe we're starting
with this. So I was terrible andawkward, and I have a history of
doing this, so I had this big,huge story. I actually met
Melissa Gilbert, who's LauraIngalls Wilder. So if you're a
girl my age, and you grew uplike loving little hope on the
prairie, and Laura IngallsWilder, and Melissa Gilbert is
(01:11):
actually a person in recoveryalso, and he was in a play in
Chicago called when Harry meetsrehab. Still theater and after
the show, the actors just like,walk out into the lobby with
their hat and gloves and scarflike, ready to go. They're just
like, right there in front ofyou. So I freaked out that I was
(01:34):
standing right next to MelissaGilbert, my like, idol. So I
talked to her, and what I shouldhave said was, I read your book.
She has a biography, like amemoir called the prairie tale.
I should have said I read theprairie tale and I loved it
because it would have told her Iknew everything about her life.
Instead, I I told her about howher stepson used to be roommates
(01:58):
with my husband's collegeroommate, and they had dinner
Thanksgiving with her one timein the 90s or something. Like,
do you remember that? Come on,this doesn't even, you know, I
couldn't even remember herstepson's name. Like, this was
the dumbest thing I couldpossibly do. And she was like,
okay, and left. I was like,Okay. Ruined that. So I figured
I knew Liz Gilbert, because Iknew she was going to be at this
(02:21):
conference, and I was hopefulthat I have a need her. So I was
standing in a booth, and shejust casually walked by. Maybe
everybody doesn't know who sheis, but she's my own personal
Jesus, so I knew exactly who shewas. So I, like, my whole face
lit up, and I was like, Hi. AndI was like, drawn to her like
you moth to a flame. I startedtelling her, she's like, Would
(02:43):
you like to walk with me? And Isaid, Oh, absolutely, I'd like
to walk with you. So we linkedarms, and we started walking.
And I started telling her abouther was how nervous I was to
meet her, and how I didn't wantto repeat what I did with
Melissa Gilbert. Of course hedid to tell her the whole
Melissa Gilbert story, and shesaid the cutest thing. She goes,
You know what? I've beenintroduced as Melissa Gilbert,
oh sure, thinking that they werethe same last name. So anyway,
(03:06):
she was really cool about it. Idid all the stupid things, and
then I walked away and got ahold of myself, and then I came
back and had an actualconversation with her. So
amazing. Yeah, I hope to notmeet any other of my idols
again, because I can't be cool.
I have no chill.
DeAnn Knighton (03:20):
I don't either.
Okay, this is good. You're kindof helping me out, just in case
I happen to find myself in asituation. Think that's good
with Liz Gilbert, you just wentright in with like, this is me
and my awkwardness. So, right.
Okay, so thanks for hopping ontoday. You and I have been in
touch for a while, around somelike, a lot of aligned and
(03:42):
shared interests. But today inparticular, I wanted to talk
because I recently had anepisode that just outlined my
own personal experience withbeing a human in recovery and
engaging in some non alcoholicdrinks and being a little bit
surprised by the experience. Asa result, I saw your blog post
(04:05):
that spoke exactly to what I wasthinking about. I have a huge
place in my heart fornormalizing sobriety and
inclusion, helping build placeswhere people feel excited to be
sober. I have been kind of amatzo the flame on this non
alcoholic movement, because Ilove the fact that it it is
(04:27):
about that however, I foundmyself a little surprised, as a
person in recovery beingtriggered by that experience.
And so it's not for me to saythat I don't want us to have
these experiences, because I do.
It's more about, how do we beaware, either as a person
recovering, or maybe as somebodywho's hosting these events, what
we maybe need to be thoughtfulof? That's what we're going to
(04:50):
get into. But before we gothere, I just this is a podcast
about being a human so I want totalk about you for a minute.
Heather Lowe (04:59):
I. Love it. Thank you. Thank you for opening
conversation about all theseissues. I of course, our
missions are aligned, and I loveit, so I My story starts. It's
kind of funny. I say my parentsmet in a beer tent, which is
true story. I'm from Wisconsin,so who was I not to like? I feel
like beer, beer was part of mydestiny, right? Like it was part
(05:20):
of everything, and the I didn'tknow any happy, sober people
growing up, maybe there was avery few that I that didn't
drink, and that's because theywere bad at drinking, so their
hand was slapped, and they hadto sit in the corner. They had
to live a sad life. They had tonot join in on the party, is
what I thought as a young girl.
And when people drink, they gotfunnier and louder and seem to
(05:42):
be having more fun. And whodoesn't want to have more fun?
You know, I do so anyways, therewas no question about drinking.
It was just part of a rite ofpassage for me. It was my coming
of age story. Beer waseverywhere. It was accepted.
Everybody drank. I mean,Wisconsin is the always labeled
that has like, the top 10 of 13Drunkest cities, and is the
(06:06):
drunkest America. I mean, ourmajor league baseball team is
named after the people that makebeer, the brewers. So it's,
like, very cultural there, Imean, and maybe everywhere, but
especially in Wisconsin, theysay drink Wisconsin, and I drink
Wisconsin for 30 years, right? Idrank. It was part of
everything. I knew I liked itmore than most, and I secretly
(06:28):
thought I would probably quitsomeday, but I never wanted the
party to end, so I drank throughhigh school. I drink through
college. I drank as a youngurban professional. We moved to
Chicago, and drinking even feltlike part of the job, you know,
happy hours and events andnetworking and things like that.
And so my degree was actually insocial work, and I quickly moved
(06:51):
to human resources, and then Isold HR solutions for most of my
career. I had two children, andI quit drinking during my
pregnancies, but very quicklyswitched and kind of from beer
to wine, and sipped wine and itfelt European, and again, trying
to really normalize my drinking.
(07:12):
And this was at the rise ofmommy wine culture. So all the
dish towels that say, you know,a coffee mug that says might be
wine, or a dish towel that saysthey wine, I wine, or follow me
bring wine. Was sort ofhilarious. There's purses where
you can hold your wine. There'swine holders for your glass in
the shower. You know, this wasall marketed as being normal,
(07:37):
and I liked that because it mademe feel normal about my
drinking. And my husband wastraveling for work, and he was
going to Vegas, and he washaving these, like, getting
promoted and having privateconcerts, and he was like
drinking for work in the bestway, and I was at home, working
(07:58):
part time and taking care ofkids, and feeling really lonely
that my social life had come toa scratching halt after becoming
a mom to young kids. So eventhis looked normal, it wasn't
until I was hit with threedeaths in a row. Over three
years, I had two friends thatwere my age and my dad passed
away, and I was asked to do allthree eulogies, and I really
(08:20):
wanted to perform thoseeulogies. I really wanted to do
a good job for the people that Iloved and the people that they
loved, and so I wanted to beable to stand in front of groups
of people. These people wereripped for me without warning. I
don't know if that makes adifference, but it was a shot.
Every situation was a tragedyand attack, and I wanted to do a
(08:41):
really good job, and I did. Idid great eulogies. I got great
feedback, and when the serviceswere done, I told myself to get
over it. I had no understandingof grief because I thought the
services are done, like stopyour crying, just move on. But I
had never processed it, becauseI was worried about giving a
good eulogy, instead of feelingmy feelings are allowing myself
(09:02):
to feel that grief and pain. Soalcohol is a wonderful numbing
agent, and that's where thingskind of took a turn, where I
started to drink more. Myanxiety was increasing, and I
was sending the family upstairsto go to bed, and then I was
staying on the couch alone todrink and feeling really
disconnected. I went to see in apanic. I went to see a therapist
(09:24):
who put me on anxiety meds andsaid I could keep drinking. I
was thrilled. I told her I had adrinking problem, and she said,
No, you don't. She said, youjust have anxiety. So I was
thrilled. Like, okay, this is asubstance use professional. She
says, I don't have to have aproblem. I'm going to keep
drinking, and now I'm drinkingon meds. This turned me into a
walking blackout on a fewoccasions. So it was starting to
(09:47):
show. You know, even after 30years of drinking, I was able to
keep it in check. It wasstarting to show, and it was
starting to worry the peoplethat were closest to me, and so
I started to address it. Bydoing some alcohol free
experiments. And my firstexperiment, I wanted to go 100
days without alcohol. I went 70days. Thought that was amazing.
(10:09):
I thought I was cured. So ofcourse, I went back to drinking.
So I did this on off drinkingfor three years, always to keep
alcohol in my life, never to letit go completely, always to be
able to manage it and keep it inmy life and prove that it was no
problem. Well, you know, everytime I went back to drinking, it
sort of like escalated evenfaster. I picked up right where
(10:29):
I left off, and I could start tosee that it really had a hold on
me, and it wasn't makinganything better. So I was pretty
miserable by my final day one, Iwas in between jobs. I was
disconnected from my husband. Ididn't recognize myself in the
mirror. I had become so bloated,I was depressed, I was anxious,
I was very, very confused, and Iwas sad, and I just thought,
(10:55):
this isn't working for me, and Idon't know if quitting is going
to work for me either, but Ihave to give it a try, and I
have to give it a real try, andI have to throw the kitchen sink
at it. I have to be willing todo all those things I don't want
to do, like, what if I needrehab, what if I need AA, all
these things I had tried toavoid. I decided, like, I have
(11:15):
to give it an actual try. And soI did for you know, I
surrendered to my husband, and Isaid, I need help. I need to
quit, and I need some help withthis. And he was thrilled to
hear me say that, because hehadn't heard that before, and he
was worried about me, but I wasso high functioning, it was
pretty confusing for him too.
Like, of course, I was miserableand drinking too much, but I was
(11:35):
the first person awake in themorning, making lunches and
sweeping the floor. You know, Iwas getting promoted at work. I
was a top salesperson. In manyoccasions, I had access to
decision makers at a happy houror a bar that I didn't in the
office. So I was, you know, insome ways, really succeeding. So
it was really confusing. Did Ihave a problem or not? It wasn't
a typical rock bottom story, andthere wasn't a lawyer involved,
(11:59):
or a policeman involved, or adoctor involved, that told me to
quit. But anyways, that was inFebruary of 2018, and I just
kept walking away from alcohol,right, and building my skills as
I went. And turns out, when youstart drinking at 12, like you
don't have any coping skillsbesides alcohol, I was like a
toddler who had never learnedhow to manage my emotions or go
(12:21):
through discomfort. I'd neverdone anything without pouring
alcohol on it. So in the lastsix years, I've learned exactly
how to do that.
DeAnn Knighton (12:32):
Where you sit now, six years into this when
that birthday, quote, unquote,rolls around and you think
about, oh my gosh, like anotheryear has gone by and who I am
now versus who I was then. Like,what is that experience like for
you?
Heather Lowe (12:47):
Yeah, thanks for asking. So last year felt like a
big one because it was fiveyears. So five years felt like a
milestone. Like for at first, Ijust wanted to get to one year,
and actually, it wasn't until Igot to one year that I told
anyone. I mean, I really kept itprivate at first, and I made a
face, a very, very casualFacebook announcement on my one
year anniversary, to share withmy bigger circle what I had been
(13:10):
doing and what I had beenworking on. And then five felt
like a really big year. And theysay when you're five years free
from alcohol, you're inremission, like, they call it
remission, like as if it wascancer, that you would be no
more likely to have an alcoholproblem than anybody else. So
that felt like a big achievementand a big milestone to reach. So
(13:31):
five was awesome. I actually hadI celebrated a lot. I went out
with people and had dinners andmocktails and all that stuff.
But I also had my friends got mea box of alcohol free drinks,
which I'm sure we'll talk about,and this like beautiful sunshine
confetti box that my kidsmarched into me singing, and so
to have my daughter as part ofthat celebration and my family's
(13:54):
pride felt really, really greatthis year six. Feels like, I
don't know it feels like it now.
It feels like it's just the waythat it is. I mean, at first I
was counting days, and now, evenas a sober coach, I really don't
think about drinking. I don'tthink about alcohol. I'm not
counting days. It's just part ofwho I am now, is it's part of my
pillars of like, I live a lifeof sobriety. I don't tap out,
(14:17):
you know, I go to my edge, and Idon't ever tap out. I stay with
myself, and then, you know, Itry to do that with all
behaviors, and I don't use anysubstances, unless you want to
count my morning coffee thattake me out of myself, because
it's just my value system. In away, I've chosen to live my life
like raw Doggett, as I say. Andso it's just who I am. It's
(14:39):
become part of the tapestry ofwho I am now. So six doesn't
feel like, I don't know, fiveprobably the big deal, and six
is just like, onward, two things
DeAnn Knighton (14:49):
that you said that I love. The first one is
like, it's just that integrationof it, right? And how, how you
build it into your identity.
It's not your whole identity,but it is helpful. I. Think to
be able to embrace it that way,it helps me immensely. And I
didn't do that for a few years,and it was like I was two
different people, and it wasreally challenging,
Heather Lowe (15:09):
and I tried to hide it. I mean, I pretended to
drink. I would have drinks infront of me so nobody knew
that's what. You wouldn't dothat with any other drug. You
wouldn't put heroin in front ofa heroin addict and expect them
to not do it. And, you know, butI did because I didn't want to
call attention to the fact Iwasn't drinking.
DeAnn Knighton (15:26):
Yeah, it shows like The enormousness of the
problem. I think that that waswhere both of us went. The other
piece too, that I love hearingyou say is about your kids
celebrating that with you. And Ithink that goes back to the
beginning of the conversationabout making sobriety not a
death sentence. That makes itfeel like something for them,
(15:46):
that wherever they go in life,they're going to have these
memories of celebrating thiswith mom. And I don't it just
feels very beautiful to me interms of passing it on to the
next generation. It's the
Heather Lowe (15:57):
most important work I do, I would say, because
it does. It heals generationsforward and backwards. And my
dad was bartender, right? My dadhad a problem. He ended up
quitting. But my mom also lovedbeer, and she's been my biggest
support through this wholething, and she's joining me at a
sober in the city event inTampa, and it's beautiful, yeah,
and my kids see it's beautiful,and it's a superpower. Sobriety
(16:18):
is a superpower, and your kids.
Sometimes my clients want toshow their kids normal drinking.
Let's say, I'll say that inquotes, but I'm like, the amount
that children want their parentsto drink is none, because it
doesn't help in any way. And toeach their own, choose what you
want, right? I'm not, I'm nothere to tell anybody what to do.
But kids don't need theirparents to drink the right
(16:41):
amount. Kids are not harmed atall by parents that drink none.
And I was really excited my Myoldest is in college now, but
when I got like any parent ofteenagers will get a 2am phone
call, and she was incrediblyapologetic for waking me up and
having me come get her from asituation, and I was thrilled to
(17:04):
say at that time, Lily, I'vebeen training five years for
this call. Oh,
DeAnn Knighton (17:12):
that's beautiful.
Unknown (17:13):
I love it.
DeAnn Knighton (17:15):
All right. Well, let's jump into work a little
bit. What was work like when youwere a drinking person, what did
it look like right after andthen, sort of the way that
you've evolved yourself and whatyou're doing now.
Heather Lowe (17:28):
Happy hours is a great way to make friends at
work. So I loved it. And thefirst place I worked after
college, when I moved toChicago, it was sort of like the
college after college, theyhired a bunch of new grads, so
it was an easy way in, and I gotto make friends. I don't know
how I would have done it as anon drinker, to be honest. And
then in sales, yeah, drinkingoften feels like part of the
job. I was typically the onlyfemale and all male sales teams.
(17:51):
So it's also like the old boysclub, and a way to fit in there.
And so and I probably chosecompanies and positions that
that drinking was a focal point,because I loved it. I loved to
drink. I fit, or so I thought soI I fit right in. I worked for
places that had a beer keg rightin the office, you know, with a
(18:12):
beer cart that would go aroundon Fridays with all, all sorts
of things. And I think Iprobably attracted that to
myself. So although I was doingthose jobs, and I was sometimes
good at it, but when you're insales, you go from zero to hero
so fast. So I was everywhere onthe spectrum, often the leading
department, the leadingdirector, the Leading the
(18:32):
Leading sales, that topsalesperson, and then in the
next moment, you know, perhapsstruggling as well. But it never
sung my soul. I always wanted,like, my husband say, like,
well, a job is never going to,like, be as fun as vacation. It
is just a job. But I had alwaysfelt like there was something
more for me, and I worked forpeople, and I thought this is
(18:54):
not what I would do if I were torun this business like I had a
different ethics system and Ihad a different value system,
and I just thought this isn'thow I would do it. So okay, I'll
smile and not I'll be thetalking head, I'll take
directions, I'll do as I'm told.
But none of this feels alignedwith me. So I was probably, in
some ways, drinking at that too.
And we drink at I drink atpeople, I drink at feelings, I
(19:17):
drink at situations. So I wasprobably drinking at my job,
because it wasn't really alive.
When I quit drinking, it was Iwas working remotely, so that
was fine, but I was then betweenjobs, and I had had a job that I
loved and raised my kids for fora decade, and then when my
youngest went to kindergarten, Igot recruited for a bigger job.
(19:40):
It was never right for me. Itwas at the same time I was
interviewing when my dad died. Ibroke my leg the first week on
the job, slipped on the ice inChicago like it was a whole
comedy of errors, and it wasnever right. But I couldn't say
that. I had to give it the twoyear try, because I'm a you
know, perfectionist like you.
Know, whatever I held myself tothat standard. Well, then I got
(20:02):
another job, and that wasn'tright, but I gave it the two
year try, and then I got anotherone. So I was sort of, my
drinking was escalating, mymental health was going down,
and I was job hopping, trying tofigure this out, always being
promoted on my resume like itlooks like I was moving up, but
I was really trying to figure itout. Ultimately, when I quit
drinking, I was after a year ofbeing sober, I was between jobs,
(20:26):
and I was about to get offersfor the same jobs that I had had
and had done and had done well,and I was like, I can't do this
anymore, after the work and selfdiscovery of sobriety, I knew I
had to do work that sung mysoul. I knew my offering looked
different, and I could no longerignore that. So I started ditch
the drink. I started with adigital class to help people,
(20:50):
high achievers like me, with awhole lot more holistic view on
sobriety than I had seen at thattime. And from there, I got in
contact and got certified as aprofessional life coach,
professional recovery coach. Igot a certificate of well being
from Yale University. I became acertified coach of law of
attraction. So then I started toeducate myself, and, you know,
(21:13):
became the kind of person thatcould work one on one with
people. And it actually feltlike a return, a return to my
social work roots for me. So nowI wake up pretty excited about
what I get to do every day, andI run my company the way I want,
and I run it by my intuition,mostly staying very aligned and
very in flow. And I don't thinkI could work for anybody else
(21:35):
now that I've done it formyself, right?
DeAnn Knighton (21:37):
It is such a part of recovery too, is
figuring that piece out. Youknow, once you strip that, like
you said, the escape away. Ifyou don't have that, that place
to go anymore, I don't know,things feel heavier. It kind of
makes you have to look, I think,at some of these things, which
can be hard, but it's also, it'sthe invitation too. At the same
time, I feel
Heather Lowe (21:57):
like it's an elevated life because you're not
willing to go through themotions. I mean, sobriety, for
me, has been an awakening, atrue awakening, and I'm really
grateful for it, and I'm evengrateful that alcohol was a
problem for me because it led toan awakened life. And it took me
a long time to say that, becauseI didn't want alcohol to be my
problem, I didn't want to havean alcohol problem, right? And
(22:19):
it was part of my identity. Ilove being a party girl. I still
love being a party girl. So, Imean, I love my Wisconsin roots.
And you know what I just wrote ablog about, I love beer. I have
an alcohol free brewery herenext to me that I just, you
know, listen to live music, andpretty much got a buzz being
alcohol free, just fromatmosphere and music and company
and the taste of an IPA. So,yeah,
DeAnn Knighton (22:41):
I love it. Okay, well, let's jump over to that. I
think that's so important. Thishas been these last few years in
particular, as it relates to themovement of incorporation of non
alcoholic experiences into oursocial scenes. It's amazing. I
love it. It's, I think, apositive thing for the majority.
The one kind of tricky thing issomething that you've spoke on
(23:04):
you and I both are people whoare abstinent from alcohol.
Obviously, there's all kinds ofpaths to recovery, different
ways people go about that,different levels of relationship
to the substance, all of thosethings that come into play. I'm
curious you know, from yourperspective, just as a coach,
how this has looked for you interms of helping people navigate
(23:24):
these spaces, especially maybeearly on, you had some great
things in your post, just aboutthings to keep in mind. So maybe
if you could just talk usthrough that,
Heather Lowe (23:33):
even the word recovery was uncomfortable to me
until that conference where Imet Liz Gilbert, because I
thought recovery meant goingback to who you were before you
had a substance. So for me, thatwould be like 12 years old, and
I'm in, you know, upper 40, sogoing back to 12 years old
didn't feel right to me. So Idon't even identify in certain
(23:55):
recovery communities, because itnever felt like the right place
for me. But when I I do use theword recovery now because I use
a definition that says healing,that I'm healing, and I think
we're all healing from things.
And kind of at middle age, Ifeel like the first half of my
life has been survival, and thesecond half of my life is kind
of looking at the ways that Isurvived and undoing those
(24:16):
right, figuring out what'swhat's best for me now, knowing
what I know so whether or notyou identify with recovery, it's
okay to be curious about yourrelationship with alcohol, and
there's lots of ways to explorethat. And you're right. We have
so many options, and I'm all foroptions. Options for everybody.
We have alcohol freealternatives. There's low or no
(24:38):
alcohol. There's things thatmimic alcohol, like there's
alcohol free spirits, there'salcohol free wine, there's
alcohol free beer, and thenthere's also all these other
drinks, like kombucha or CBDdrinks, or there's fresh juices
and mocktails, and there's awhole lot of there's liquid
death, which. Which looks likebeer, and it's actually just
(25:00):
sparkling water, right? So, andnow I see that, like, white claw
seltzer has a no alcohol whitecloth, but I'm like, okay, see,
hard, hard. Saw, like, isn'tthat just Seltzer, don't we also
just call that Seltzer, but atoy claw, so it's something
else. Okay, um, so it can be aconfusing world to navigate
(25:23):
there, but there's a lot ofoptions. And I think options are
great. I think it's great tohave options. So it can be very
inclusive. Like you said, forsome people and my clients, they
just, they can keep the ritualand change the drink. So for
some if you're used to cominghome and starting dinner and
having a glass of wine, orsitting in your chair in your
corner and watching your show.
(25:46):
For some, it's just having adrink. And you know what a lemon
Lacroix can serve the samepurpose. For some they want to
put it in a pretty glass andmaybe with a garnish. So some
clients might want to have theirlemon Lacroix in their wine
glass with a slice of lemon, andthey can sit, and it allows them
permission to sit down, or tofinish their drink, or to take a
(26:09):
moment through the day, andkeeping that ritual can be a
healthy thing for them. Forothers, it's not right for
others, it's a trigger. And soit kind of depends what it is to
you, where your head space isand how it feels to you, and
there's no right or wronganswer. It's really customized
to the person. So my experiencewas I didn't have any of that in
(26:31):
my first year because I wasafraid that it would trigger me
after my and want red wineultimately ended up being my
drink of choice. So I startedwith beers, and that brought me
back to, like, way back. Andbeer never really seemed like a
real obvious problem for me. Soit was kind of fun to order a
(26:52):
drink when I was out and fit itthat sense of belonging. Lot of
people drink to belong. So justhaving a drink, it doesn't
matter if there's alcohol or notalcohol, having something that
resembles what everyone else isdoing gives a sense of belonging
and that can be comfortable,right? I thought I was on a
quest to find a good, alcoholfree red wine, because that was
(27:14):
what I thought I love. Well,most taste terrible because beer
is a much easier process toreplicate. And to be honest, the
beers taste pretty much thesame. I've done taste tests in
my neighborhoods, and you can'ttell the difference. So so
there's that you can tell whenalcohol hits your brain, so you
can tell that difference, but asfar as taste goes, they're very
(27:36):
spot on. And wine is differentbecause there's different
processes that it goes through,and often you'll hear it's bad
and it tastes like grape juiceor vinegar or something. And
that's usually right, a whitewine or something with bubbles
or carbonation is easier toreplicate to get that taste on
your tongue, but a red wine isis pretty hard. So I was
searching for this, not likinganything. When I finally found
(27:59):
something, I did find something,and it did taste like red wine,
and I thought this is exactlywhat I was searching for. And
when I tasted it, it scared me,because and it didn't taste like
what I wanted. It tasted likesadness to me. It tasted like
who I was drinking wine by thegallon on the couch alone, and
it was not a taste I wantedanymore. It was not something I
(28:22):
wanted to replicate, but Ididn't know that until I had
tried it, right? And so now Ihave a few, a handful of drinks
that I love, and I drink and Ibring to car club, I bring my
own bottle of wine or whatever,and it's great, and it works for
me. Sometimes when I'm cookingdinner, I'll have a glass of
something, but it really dependswhere you're at and what's going
(28:42):
to work for you. I had a clientwho was really early in her
journey, and Valentine's Day wascoming, and she was thinking
about getting some alcohol freechampagne. She had this whole
special event planned for herhusband, and she was just a few
weeks in, but she was thinkingabout this champagne alcohol
free so much that it wascompulsive thinking about
(29:05):
drinking, right? So I pointedout to her, like you're thinking
as much about this alcohol freechampagne as you would be real
champagne. Let's talk about someother options. What she
ultimately decided was pinklemonade, pink lemonade and
pretty glasses. And that totallyworked for her, and it relieved
her so much to take thischampagne off the table, even
alcohol free. So I would say,pay attention to your thinking
(29:29):
about it and what, what whatyou're trying to do with it, if
you're trying to replacesomething, what benefit is it
bringing to you? Is it a senseof belonging, you know? Is it a
celebration? Is it a ritual, youknow, what is it doing to you?
How do you feel about it? If youfeel afraid of it or scared of
it, it, it might not be for you.
And that can also change overtime. And you don't have to like
(29:51):
it. You never have to like it,you never have to try it. It can
just be for you. I know there'ssomebody who I absolutely. Leah
door, who basically grew up in abar, and she had her first sip
of alcohol free beer with me,and she was like, Absolutely
not. I will I take one sip ofthis? And absolutely not, this
is not for me. I'll never dothat again, you know. And that's
(30:14):
amazing. Enjoy some pineapplejuice and sparkling water,
whatever you want, right? Yeah,
DeAnn Knighton (30:21):
absolutely. You know, I hadn't really thought of
it in terms of determining yourown journey within that until
the recent experience I had. Ihad done a lot of mocktails, and
that always felt really safe tome, because I knew that they
were mixed separately, and Idrank some cocktails, but my
drink of choice was white wine.
And the experience that I hadthat was triggering was
(30:44):
definitely a white wine flightexperience, where it was with
other people at the table whowere all consuming alcohol. I
was the only non alcoholicflight it was brought to the
table the server acted hesitantabout knowing which one was non
alcoholic or not. She smelled itand said, Oh yeah, this is the
non alcoholic hands it to me.
(31:05):
Talk about triggers, right? Likemy whole body went, I don't like
this. This feels awful. This islike everything I didn't want
this experience to be. Now I'mweirded out, you know? Now I'm
uncomfortable. Now I'm makingother people uncomfortable,
because they know me and theycan sense that I'm
uncomfortable. The pleaser in mewas, what do I do with this? And
long and short, it turns outthat I held my ground. I didn't
(31:26):
drink it. It was alcoholic. Mynephew had the non alcoholic
drink in front of him. It was sointeresting, because I had been
talking about all of this somuch, and then that experience
happened, and it was like, ah,yeah, but there is something, as
we are increasing thedistribution of this in all
kinds of different environments.
I think there are some someplaces to be mindful, even as
(31:47):
you know restaurant owners orhow we train our staff, in
understanding that for somepeople, this is a big deal. You
know, they're not ordering a nonalcoholic drink, just for the
heck of it. There may be a goodreason for it. Totally
Heather Lowe (32:03):
yeah, I've had experiences too, where I've had
alcohol in my drinks, and I'vehad, like, even in Mexico, I got
a Diet Coke, just a plain DietCoke, and when it came I sipped
it, it was a rum and coke, andthat taste tasted like my
husband in college. I was like,this is like, Captain Morgan. I
was like, Oh my gosh, thisbrings me back. And then we
started to go, Well, no onewould know. I could just have
(32:26):
this I could just have this one,and no one would know. And,
haha, I'm out of the country andI'm on vacation, and I'm a
silver coach, this would be mysecret. And I'm like, that's why
you don't do it. That's exactlywhy you don't do it, because
it's already messing with yourmind. So definitely be prepared.
Also, I've been, I've beendrinking Heineken 0.0 all night,
and then somebody buys me abeer, and they don't know that
(32:47):
I'm sober, they don't know whatI've been drinking, and they
just want to pay me back with adrink or something, or get
around for the table, and it'shead out. My husband's like,
just so, you know, this hasalcohol, right? Take it. They're
strangers, basically. So I throwit away. I don't have to even
talk about this with people Idon't really know. The other
thing is, I've been on a boatand I've had alcohol free beer,
and the the only thing they had,I think, in the store, was a
(33:10):
alcohol free like Coors, whichis just a cheap beer. So I
thought I had one left, and wewere going to be headed to a
restaurant, and I know that I'vebeen to the restaurant, they
don't have any alcohol freeoptions. I would just be
drinking club soda. So I wantedto have, like, my one last beer
before we went to thisrestaurant. And I dug in the
cooler, and it was they weregone. I had misconducted, or I
(33:32):
didn't know, or I couldn't findit, and I was confused and I was
annoyed, because I had it in mymind that I was going to have
one more beer. And so I myfriends were drinking really
good beer, like craft beers, andI thought, well, I could just
have one of theirs. I guess mineare out. I've been drinking beer
all day. Mine are out. I'll justhave one of theirs, not for
(33:52):
alcohol, not to get dark,nothing like that, just because
I just want one more beer and Idon't even drink. So having one
of theirs will be no big deal.
It's just like I've beendrinking all day. I don't want
the alcohol. What's one beer?
Who cares? And it was like, Ohmy gosh, that's way too close.
No, no, no, no. And so I didn'tI just sucked it up and had my
clothes soda, and life went on.
And it was fine. But I thinkbecause I had been drinking
(34:15):
beer, alcohol free, it just itfelt like an easy thing to slip
into. And again, I don't want todrink alcohol, but I can see the
slippery slope that it could be.
I think that's
DeAnn Knighton (34:27):
important. I also really like what you said
about sadness, because for me,you know, had I taken a sip of
that glass of wine, I don'tthink that it would have sent me
on some crazy road that Iwouldn't have been able to
recover from, but it's that,it's, it's a, almost like a
traumatic response right in mybody and going back, yeah, a lot
(34:50):
of fear just around some reallydifficult times, and that whole
experience, like I it washedover me with like, a level of a
traumatic response. Yes, I thinkthat's interesting that you said
it that way, especially forthose who maybe don't fully
understand the nature ofsubstance use disorder, there's
different levels to whysomething might be triggering,
(35:12):
right?
Heather Lowe (35:12):
And I think you you want to recreate the thing
you're not doing or find asubstitute for that. But the
truth is, what I love about yourstory is you come to a place
where you don't dilute, youdon't pour alcohol, you don't
ignore and you don't numbyourself. You stay very in tune
to your body and its responses.
You pay attention drinkingalcohol is not paying attention,
(35:33):
and you pay a lot of attentionto yourself. So you knew when
that came that that wouldn't befor you. And although you
previously thought you wantedthis experience or to try
something, and you were withpeople that were maybe excited
for you to join in and get to dosomething too, you knew it
wouldn't be right, and you stuckwith yourself. You didn't
(35:53):
abandon yourself and you didn'tdo something just because, and
as a drinker, I bet you didright? You did in yourself, and
you did just pour alcohol onevery feeling, and you didn't
listen to that internal calling.
And the work of sobriety isreally beautiful, because it's
the work of life, it's the workof self discovery, and it
continues. You don't reach amountain where you're five years
(36:14):
sober and now it's done, youhave another summit to climb for
further personal development,and you have all these
opportunities to do that. So theanswer to is an alcohol free
alternative, right? For me ornot, is up to you, right? It's
up to each person, individually.
And again, it can change bybeverage. It can change by time
and sobriety. It can change byenvironment. It really depends.
(36:36):
It really depends. But for somepeople, if they have that
alcohol free beer when they getto a party, that's all they
need, and they're set, and theydon't feel left out. And it it
worked, and it's a real tool forthem, because they're not
they're not at danger for havinga beer, because they just
scratch the itch with thisalcohol free drink, and now
(36:56):
they're good to go. They don'twant alcohol. They just wanted
to be included. You know,
DeAnn Knighton (37:04):
I consider you someone just from following your
work over the last while thatreally is a bridge between a lot
of different worlds that kind ofsurround non drinking for
different reasons. And so Iwanted to ask you about this
area that comes up for me a lot,in the sense of, I'm training
right now to be an addictioncounselor, learning abstinence
(37:24):
model, I'm learning don'ttrigger yourself yet, all the
things I'll be teaching peopleyet, I have this piece of myself
too. I really started to getbetter when I integrated this
into my life in a much morepositive way. And I feel like
choosing not to drink can besomething that can bring people
together for whatever reasonsthey are choosing not to drink,
(37:46):
whatever that might be, and thatthat can reach across all those
different spaces. But I feelsometimes that there is this
push and pull and some energyaround you know, someone who
might be considered sober,curious, looking to moderate
versus somebody who maybe wentthrough a traditional treatment
at some point in time. So I justwant to hear your experience
(38:08):
with this. I'm sure you run intoit. What does that look like
now, and how do we navigate it,to use the advantage of this non
alcoholic movement as a form ofadvocacy instead of something
that pulls people apart? Yeah,
Heather Lowe (38:21):
absolutely. I mean, I've experienced some
polarization with that myself.
In fact, I went on a call andshared my story, and then there
was feedback, like it like Iwasn't bad enough, like it
wasn't drunk enough, like thiswasn't a real story, like it
should have been worse, or thereshould be a rock bottom. And I
would say I woke up miserable. Iwas waking up miserable. It
doesn't have to get worse thanthat, so, but somebody who's had
(38:44):
a different experience and adifferent treatment for their
own protection, you know, mighthave to think something else.
So, and even dry January. Somepeople say dry January is
terrible because it keeps peopledrinking or acting like they
don't have a problem. You don'teat dry January. You need
recovery or whatever. My thoughtis always to each their own, and
(39:07):
there's the path to likerecovery or discovery, however
you want to get is as varied aswe are people. But I don't do
clinical work. I'm a coach. Ilove coaching. I'm a huge fan of
coaching support, and it's notclinical. So certainly, I work
with certain people, but I don'twork with everyone, and I'm not
(39:28):
the right solution for everyone,and I try to help people find
the solutions that are right forthem. I'm not a rehab facility.
I'm not a medication assistedwithdrawal or detox. You know,
there's a lot of things that Idon't offer as a coach, but my I
would have died from alcohol ifI kept drinking, and I know that
100% there would be a diagnosisor a tragedy that was around the
(39:51):
corner for me the way it wasescalating at the end, again,
after 30 years of drinking,which looked normal, most people
said. Me, oh, I've never evenseen you drunk. And I'm like,
that was the goal. Of course, Ihit it. I have a lot of shame. I
was private. I was having onedrink at the block party and
coming home to finish bottles bymyself. I was embarrassed. I
didn't want anyone to know so,so even though I was high
(40:15):
functioning and high leveling, Iwas it was taking me, it was
definitely starting to take meand hijack my brain. And I know
what the ending would look likeif I kept drinking. It would
have been death by alcohol, andit would have been it was coming
for me. It was around thecorner, and thank God I quit,
and I'll never know the end ofthat story. I want to pull
people out further up thestream. We don't have to wait.
We don't have to wait. And mytagline even is like, I help
(40:39):
people before it gets worse, andmy own drinking that was not
that bad kept me from beingamazing for most of my life. You
know, it was taking myconfidence, it was taking my
clarity, it was taking it wasfogging up my spiritual
alignment. And so I'm all forany entry point to exploring
(41:02):
your relationship with alcohol,and I'm for people would say,
like drink less. Most of myclients start with a discovery
call and they want to have aglass of wine at dinner. Every
once in a while, that would betheir goal. And I say, I hear
you, and then what they do isthey take a complete break from
alcohol for 90 days. Because Isay to evaluate your
relationship with alcohol, youhave to remove the alcohol the
(41:24):
minute. If you're evenanticipating alcohol, it changes
your brain chemistry, even theanticipation of it, and then
when you sip it, it changes yourjudgment, decision making,
intuition, like it affects allthese things. So you can't take
a good look at your relationshipwith alcohol while you're
drinking alcohol. So they take abreak, and they see it for what
it is, and they start they losethe desire to drink. They don't
(41:46):
want it anymore. Now they wantto start building their sober
muscle, flexing that a littlebit more, where they don't need
it, where they do vacations andparties and celebrations and
birthdays and holidays andnights out with friends, and
they don't want it anymore. Andso that was me too. I had to
have the experience that I had.
(42:07):
I had to have this on, offdrinking until I figured out
what it what I wanted for mylife, and that it's not for me.
If, if I had to say I was goingto quit drinking for the rest of
my life, I'd probably still bedrinking, right? Because it
terrified me, so I'm just aboutlowering the entry point, making
it a really easy barrier, andlet's normalize not drinking.
(42:29):
Let's normalize alcohol freedrinks. Let's normalize taking
breaks. Let's normalize beingsober. Let's normalize everyone
having their own experience. ButI think to start getting curious
is a great thing to do, and precontemplation, contemplation in
the stages of change that comesbefore change, that's the
natural process. So make it safefor people to start exploring
(42:53):
that, I would say, and forothers, it's a life and death
situation, right? And when it'sa life and death situation, you
need medical support. So thatlooks different for you. But
that doesn't mean this shouldn'tbe available for the people that
need it here in this middle lanedrinking or gray area drinking.
It's sometimes called or for me,just high achievers, that it
(43:13):
looks like you have it togetheron the outside and inside,
you're dying a slow death.
DeAnn Knighton (43:18):
Yeah. Well, thank you for that perspective,
that was really well said.
Let's just talk about anyprojects that you're excited
about this year. You're all overthe place. You're a busy person.
So oh my gosh, I feel
Heather Lowe (43:37):
like like Roy Kent from Ted lasso, like he's here,
he's there, he's everywhere. I'mtrying to focus this year, so,
yeah, I have it everywhere. So Ihave a digital course that my
original ditch the drink. It'sso cute, because it's me one
year sober. So I feel reallyclose to the students. And I
think about updating it, but Ican't, because I'm like, There's
something really special aboutbeing right there with them,
(44:00):
being in my own journey. Sothere's that I have one on one
coaching, of course, 12 weekprogram, but I also have what
I'm excited about as an insidermembership and community was one
of the last things I added in myown journey. And now I'm like,
why did you wait so long?
Because it's so much easier whenyou have people like minded
people to support. So my insidermembership, there's an app so
(44:22):
people can connect. 24/7, wehave meetings twice a week,
Monday evenings and Thursdayafternoons. It's small groups.
There's master classes and allthis prizes and giveaways and
challenges, and it's a reallyfun group to be part of. So I'm
excited about that insidermembership, and that's also
included with all my otherofferings. And then the new
thing I have is I partner withthe International Association of
(44:45):
Professional recovery coaches.
So I also recruit coaches, Imentor coaches, people that want
to be coaches. And now I've justlaunched a business course for
coaches once they're trained orcertified or they have an idea.
In the alcohol free space, andthey want to get that offering
into the world. I teach them todo that because most people are
(45:05):
like me, helpers. Want to be ahelper, but don't know how to
get clients or get the word outabout what they're doing. So if
anyone's interested in learningabout becoming a coach, it's an
unregulated industry, so it'svery confusing. I love to just
educate people on the world ofcoaching in general, and then,
of course, share a little bitabout the program that I work
(45:27):
with, which is, I think the goldstandard. And other people think
the gold standard. It actuallyjust won an award for being the
best overall program, and Irecently won an award for being
a top silver coach. So yeah, Ican say that. I can say that
with pride, like it withconfidence, it is the gold
standard. Love to talk to peopleabout coaching. Love to talk to
people about launching their ownbusiness and coaching practice,
(45:48):
helping practice. Oh,
DeAnn Knighton (45:50):
amazing Heather, thank you so much for doing
this. Yes.
Heather Lowe (45:53):
Thank you for your time, and thank you for having
me on I'm glad we were finallyable to get it done, and it's
great to talk to you, and I loveall the work you're doing, so I
want to continue to support youand everything you're doing. I
mean, like I said, Put me on theteam. I mean, I'm all for it.
Yeah.
Heather, it is so good to see you again and
talk to you again.
Heather Lowe (00:03):
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I absolutely
love what you're doing, so I'mthrilled to be here.
DeAnn Knighton (00:08):
Oh, they will same. I follow you. I have to
say, the thing that pops into myhead right now is the picture I
saw of you with ElizabethGilbert earlier this year on
LinkedIn. And I Yeah, there wassome definite social media envy
happening with that one,
Heather Lowe (00:24):
no doubt. I mean, it was literally a dream come
true to me. I mean, I look backat that picture and IP, young
girl all over again, over herand me just for being there in
the same picture together withher arm actually touching my
shoulder, right?
DeAnn Knighton (00:37):
It's amazing.
Okay, so here's my thing aboutthinking about those meetings is
my awkwardness comes up. I'mlike, what will I even say? How
will I not be weird? So I haveto, like, What did you say?
Heather Lowe (00:48):
Oh my gosh. I can't believe we're starting
with this. So I was terrible andawkward, and I have a history of
doing this, so I had this big,huge story. I actually met
Melissa Gilbert, who's LauraIngalls Wilder. So if you're a
girl my age, and you grew uplike loving little hope on the
prairie, and Laura IngallsWilder, and Melissa Gilbert is
(01:11):
actually a person in recoveryalso, and he was in a play in
Chicago called when Harry meetsrehab. Still theater and after
the show, the actors just like,walk out into the lobby with
their hat and gloves and scarflike, ready to go. They're just
like, right there in front ofyou. So I freaked out that I was
(01:34):
standing right next to MelissaGilbert, my like, idol. So I
talked to her, and what I shouldhave said was, I read your book.
She has a biography, like amemoir called the prairie tale.
I should have said I read theprairie tale and I loved it
because it would have told her Iknew everything about her life.
Instead, I I told her about howher stepson used to be roommates
(01:58):
with my husband's collegeroommate, and they had dinner
Thanksgiving with her one timein the 90s or something. Like,
do you remember that? Come on,this doesn't even, you know, I
couldn't even remember herstepson's name. Like, this was
the dumbest thing I couldpossibly do. And she was like,
okay, and left. I was like,Okay. Ruined that. So I figured
I knew Liz Gilbert, because Iknew she was going to be at this
(02:21):
conference, and I was hopefulthat I have a need her. So I was
standing in a booth, and shejust casually walked by. Maybe
everybody doesn't know who sheis, but she's my own personal
Jesus, so I knew exactly who shewas. So I, like, my whole face
lit up, and I was like, Hi. AndI was like, drawn to her like
you moth to a flame. I startedtelling her, she's like, Would
(02:43):
you like to walk with me? And Isaid, Oh, absolutely, I'd like
to walk with you. So we linkedarms, and we started walking.
And I started telling her abouther was how nervous I was to
meet her, and how I didn't wantto repeat what I did with
Melissa Gilbert. Of course hedid to tell her the whole
Melissa Gilbert story, and shesaid the cutest thing. She goes,
You know what? I've beenintroduced as Melissa Gilbert,
oh sure, thinking that they werethe same last name. So anyway,
(03:06):
she was really cool about it. Idid all the stupid things, and
then I walked away and got ahold of myself, and then I came
back and had an actualconversation with her. So
amazing. Yeah, I hope to notmeet any other of my idols
again, because I can't be cool.
I have no chill.
DeAnn Knighton (03:20):
I don't either.
Okay, this is good. You're kindof helping me out, just in case
I happen to find myself in asituation. Think that's good
with Liz Gilbert, you just wentright in with like, this is me
and my awkwardness. So, right.
Okay, so thanks for hopping ontoday. You and I have been in
touch for a while, around somelike, a lot of aligned and
(03:42):
shared interests. But today inparticular, I wanted to talk
because I recently had anepisode that just outlined my
own personal experience withbeing a human in recovery and
engaging in some non alcoholicdrinks and being a little bit
surprised by the experience. Asa result, I saw your blog post
(04:05):
that spoke exactly to what I wasthinking about. I have a huge
place in my heart fornormalizing sobriety and
inclusion, helping build placeswhere people feel excited to be
sober. I have been kind of amatzo the flame on this non
alcoholic movement, because Ilove the fact that it it is
(04:27):
about that however, I foundmyself a little surprised, as a
person in recovery beingtriggered by that experience.
And so it's not for me to saythat I don't want us to have
these experiences, because I do.
It's more about, how do we beaware, either as a person
recovering, or maybe as somebodywho's hosting these events, what
we maybe need to be thoughtfulof? That's what we're going to
(04:50):
get into. But before we gothere, I just this is a podcast
about being a human so I want totalk about you for a minute.
Heather Lowe (04:59):
I. Love it. Thank you. Thank you for opening
conversation about all theseissues. I of course, our
missions are aligned, and I loveit, so I My story starts. It's
kind of funny. I say my parentsmet in a beer tent, which is
true story. I'm from Wisconsin,so who was I not to like? I feel
like beer, beer was part of mydestiny, right? Like it was part
(05:20):
of everything, and the I didn'tknow any happy, sober people
growing up, maybe there was avery few that I that didn't
drink, and that's because theywere bad at drinking, so their
hand was slapped, and they hadto sit in the corner. They had
to live a sad life. They had tonot join in on the party, is
what I thought as a young girl.
And when people drink, they gotfunnier and louder and seem to
(05:42):
be having more fun. And whodoesn't want to have more fun?
You know, I do so anyways, therewas no question about drinking.
It was just part of a rite ofpassage for me. It was my coming
of age story. Beer waseverywhere. It was accepted.
Everybody drank. I mean,Wisconsin is the always labeled
that has like, the top 10 of 13Drunkest cities, and is the
(06:06):
drunkest America. I mean, ourmajor league baseball team is
named after the people that makebeer, the brewers. So it's,
like, very cultural there, Imean, and maybe everywhere, but
especially in Wisconsin, theysay drink Wisconsin, and I drink
Wisconsin for 30 years, right? Idrank. It was part of
everything. I knew I liked itmore than most, and I secretly
(06:28):
thought I would probably quitsomeday, but I never wanted the
party to end, so I drank throughhigh school. I drink through
college. I drank as a youngurban professional. We moved to
Chicago, and drinking even feltlike part of the job, you know,
happy hours and events andnetworking and things like that.
And so my degree was actually insocial work, and I quickly moved
(06:51):
to human resources, and then Isold HR solutions for most of my
career. I had two children, andI quit drinking during my
pregnancies, but very quicklyswitched and kind of from beer
to wine, and sipped wine and itfelt European, and again, trying
to really normalize my drinking.
(07:12):
And this was at the rise ofmommy wine culture. So all the
dish towels that say, you know,a coffee mug that says might be
wine, or a dish towel that saysthey wine, I wine, or follow me
bring wine. Was sort ofhilarious. There's purses where
you can hold your wine. There'swine holders for your glass in
the shower. You know, this wasall marketed as being normal,
(07:37):
and I liked that because it mademe feel normal about my
drinking. And my husband wastraveling for work, and he was
going to Vegas, and he washaving these, like, getting
promoted and having privateconcerts, and he was like
drinking for work in the bestway, and I was at home, working
(07:58):
part time and taking care ofkids, and feeling really lonely
that my social life had come toa scratching halt after becoming
a mom to young kids. So eventhis looked normal, it wasn't
until I was hit with threedeaths in a row. Over three
years, I had two friends thatwere my age and my dad passed
away, and I was asked to do allthree eulogies, and I really
(08:20):
wanted to perform thoseeulogies. I really wanted to do
a good job for the people that Iloved and the people that they
loved, and so I wanted to beable to stand in front of groups
of people. These people wereripped for me without warning. I
don't know if that makes adifference, but it was a shot.
Every situation was a tragedyand attack, and I wanted to do a
(08:41):
really good job, and I did. Idid great eulogies. I got great
feedback, and when the serviceswere done, I told myself to get
over it. I had no understandingof grief because I thought the
services are done, like stopyour crying, just move on. But I
had never processed it, becauseI was worried about giving a
good eulogy, instead of feelingmy feelings are allowing myself
(09:02):
to feel that grief and pain. Soalcohol is a wonderful numbing
agent, and that's where thingskind of took a turn, where I
started to drink more. Myanxiety was increasing, and I
was sending the family upstairsto go to bed, and then I was
staying on the couch alone todrink and feeling really
disconnected. I went to see in apanic. I went to see a therapist
(09:24):
who put me on anxiety meds andsaid I could keep drinking. I
was thrilled. I told her I had adrinking problem, and she said,
No, you don't. She said, youjust have anxiety. So I was
thrilled. Like, okay, this is asubstance use professional. She
says, I don't have to have aproblem. I'm going to keep
drinking, and now I'm drinkingon meds. This turned me into a
walking blackout on a fewoccasions. So it was starting to
(09:47):
show. You know, even after 30years of drinking, I was able to
keep it in check. It wasstarting to show, and it was
starting to worry the peoplethat were closest to me, and so
I started to address it. Bydoing some alcohol free
experiments. And my firstexperiment, I wanted to go 100
days without alcohol. I went 70days. Thought that was amazing.
(10:09):
I thought I was cured. So ofcourse, I went back to drinking.
So I did this on off drinkingfor three years, always to keep
alcohol in my life, never to letit go completely, always to be
able to manage it and keep it inmy life and prove that it was no
problem. Well, you know, everytime I went back to drinking, it
sort of like escalated evenfaster. I picked up right where
(10:29):
I left off, and I could start tosee that it really had a hold on
me, and it wasn't makinganything better. So I was pretty
miserable by my final day one, Iwas in between jobs. I was
disconnected from my husband. Ididn't recognize myself in the
mirror. I had become so bloated,I was depressed, I was anxious,
I was very, very confused, and Iwas sad, and I just thought,
(10:55):
this isn't working for me, and Idon't know if quitting is going
to work for me either, but Ihave to give it a try, and I
have to give it a real try, andI have to throw the kitchen sink
at it. I have to be willing todo all those things I don't want
to do, like, what if I needrehab, what if I need AA, all
these things I had tried toavoid. I decided, like, I have
(11:15):
to give it an actual try. And soI did for you know, I
surrendered to my husband, and Isaid, I need help. I need to
quit, and I need some help withthis. And he was thrilled to
hear me say that, because hehadn't heard that before, and he
was worried about me, but I wasso high functioning, it was
pretty confusing for him too.
Like, of course, I was miserableand drinking too much, but I was
(11:35):
the first person awake in themorning, making lunches and
sweeping the floor. You know, Iwas getting promoted at work. I
was a top salesperson. In manyoccasions, I had access to
decision makers at a happy houror a bar that I didn't in the
office. So I was, you know, insome ways, really succeeding. So
it was really confusing. Did Ihave a problem or not? It wasn't
a typical rock bottom story, andthere wasn't a lawyer involved,
(11:59):
or a policeman involved, or adoctor involved, that told me to
quit. But anyways, that was inFebruary of 2018, and I just
kept walking away from alcohol,right, and building my skills as
I went. And turns out, when youstart drinking at 12, like you
don't have any coping skillsbesides alcohol, I was like a
toddler who had never learnedhow to manage my emotions or go
(12:21):
through discomfort. I'd neverdone anything without pouring
alcohol on it. So in the lastsix years, I've learned exactly
how to do that.
DeAnn Knighton (12:32):
Where you sit now, six years into this when
that birthday, quote, unquote,rolls around and you think
about, oh my gosh, like anotheryear has gone by and who I am
now versus who I was then. Like,what is that experience like for
you?
Heather Lowe (12:47):
Yeah, thanks for asking. So last year felt like a
big one because it was fiveyears. So five years felt like a
milestone. Like for at first, Ijust wanted to get to one year,
and actually, it wasn't until Igot to one year that I told
anyone. I mean, I really kept itprivate at first, and I made a
face, a very, very casualFacebook announcement on my one
year anniversary, to share withmy bigger circle what I had been
(13:10):
doing and what I had beenworking on. And then five felt
like a really big year. And theysay when you're five years free
from alcohol, you're inremission, like, they call it
remission, like as if it wascancer, that you would be no
more likely to have an alcoholproblem than anybody else. So
that felt like a big achievementand a big milestone to reach. So
(13:31):
five was awesome. I actually hadI celebrated a lot. I went out
with people and had dinners andmocktails and all that stuff.
But I also had my friends got mea box of alcohol free drinks,
which I'm sure we'll talk about,and this like beautiful sunshine
confetti box that my kidsmarched into me singing, and so
to have my daughter as part ofthat celebration and my family's
(13:54):
pride felt really, really greatthis year six. Feels like, I
don't know it feels like it now.
It feels like it's just the waythat it is. I mean, at first I
was counting days, and now, evenas a sober coach, I really don't
think about drinking. I don'tthink about alcohol. I'm not
counting days. It's just part ofwho I am now, is it's part of my
pillars of like, I live a lifeof sobriety. I don't tap out,
(14:17):
you know, I go to my edge, and Idon't ever tap out. I stay with
myself, and then, you know, Itry to do that with all
behaviors, and I don't use anysubstances, unless you want to
count my morning coffee thattake me out of myself, because
it's just my value system. In away, I've chosen to live my life
like raw Doggett, as I say. Andso it's just who I am. It's
(14:39):
become part of the tapestry ofwho I am now. So six doesn't
feel like, I don't know, fiveprobably the big deal, and six
is just like, onward, two things
DeAnn Knighton (14:49):
that you said that I love. The first one is
like, it's just that integrationof it, right? And how, how you
build it into your identity.
It's not your whole identity,but it is helpful. I. Think to
be able to embrace it that way,it helps me immensely. And I
didn't do that for a few years,and it was like I was two
different people, and it wasreally challenging,
Heather Lowe (15:09):
and I tried to hide it. I mean, I pretended to
drink. I would have drinks infront of me so nobody knew
that's what. You wouldn't dothat with any other drug. You
wouldn't put heroin in front ofa heroin addict and expect them
to not do it. And, you know, butI did because I didn't want to
call attention to the fact Iwasn't drinking.
DeAnn Knighton (15:26):
Yeah, it shows like The enormousness of the
problem. I think that that waswhere both of us went. The other
piece too, that I love hearingyou say is about your kids
celebrating that with you. And Ithink that goes back to the
beginning of the conversationabout making sobriety not a
death sentence. That makes itfeel like something for them,
(15:46):
that wherever they go in life,they're going to have these
memories of celebrating thiswith mom. And I don't it just
feels very beautiful to me interms of passing it on to the
next generation. It's the
Heather Lowe (15:57):
most important work I do, I would say, because
it does. It heals generationsforward and backwards. And my
dad was bartender, right? My dadhad a problem. He ended up
quitting. But my mom also lovedbeer, and she's been my biggest
support through this wholething, and she's joining me at a
sober in the city event inTampa, and it's beautiful, yeah,
and my kids see it's beautiful,and it's a superpower. Sobriety
(16:18):
is a superpower, and your kids.
Sometimes my clients want toshow their kids normal drinking.
Let's say, I'll say that inquotes, but I'm like, the amount
that children want their parentsto drink is none, because it
doesn't help in any way. And toeach their own, choose what you
want, right? I'm not, I'm nothere to tell anybody what to do.
But kids don't need theirparents to drink the right
(16:41):
amount. Kids are not harmed atall by parents that drink none.
And I was really excited my Myoldest is in college now, but
when I got like any parent ofteenagers will get a 2am phone
call, and she was incrediblyapologetic for waking me up and
having me come get her from asituation, and I was thrilled to
(17:04):
say at that time, Lily, I'vebeen training five years for
this call. Oh,
DeAnn Knighton (17:12):
that's beautiful.
Unknown (17:13):
I love it.
DeAnn Knighton (17:15):
All right. Well, let's jump into work a little
bit. What was work like when youwere a drinking person, what did
it look like right after andthen, sort of the way that
you've evolved yourself and whatyou're doing now.
Heather Lowe (17:28):
Happy hours is a great way to make friends at
work. So I loved it. And thefirst place I worked after
college, when I moved toChicago, it was sort of like the
college after college, theyhired a bunch of new grads, so
it was an easy way in, and I gotto make friends. I don't know
how I would have done it as anon drinker, to be honest. And
then in sales, yeah, drinkingoften feels like part of the
job. I was typically the onlyfemale and all male sales teams.
(17:51):
So it's also like the old boysclub, and a way to fit in there.
And so and I probably chosecompanies and positions that
that drinking was a focal point,because I loved it. I loved to
drink. I fit, or so I thought soI I fit right in. I worked for
places that had a beer keg rightin the office, you know, with a
(18:12):
beer cart that would go aroundon Fridays with all, all sorts
of things. And I think Iprobably attracted that to
myself. So although I was doingthose jobs, and I was sometimes
good at it, but when you're insales, you go from zero to hero
so fast. So I was everywhere onthe spectrum, often the leading
department, the leadingdirector, the Leading the
(18:32):
Leading sales, that topsalesperson, and then in the
next moment, you know, perhapsstruggling as well. But it never
sung my soul. I always wanted,like, my husband say, like,
well, a job is never going to,like, be as fun as vacation. It
is just a job. But I had alwaysfelt like there was something
more for me, and I worked forpeople, and I thought this is
(18:54):
not what I would do if I were torun this business like I had a
different ethics system and Ihad a different value system,
and I just thought this isn'thow I would do it. So okay, I'll
smile and not I'll be thetalking head, I'll take
directions, I'll do as I'm told.
But none of this feels alignedwith me. So I was probably, in
some ways, drinking at that too.
And we drink at I drink atpeople, I drink at feelings, I
(19:17):
drink at situations. So I wasprobably drinking at my job,
because it wasn't really alive.
When I quit drinking, it was Iwas working remotely, so that
was fine, but I was then betweenjobs, and I had had a job that I
loved and raised my kids for fora decade, and then when my
youngest went to kindergarten, Igot recruited for a bigger job.
(19:40):
It was never right for me. Itwas at the same time I was
interviewing when my dad died. Ibroke my leg the first week on
the job, slipped on the ice inChicago like it was a whole
comedy of errors, and it wasnever right. But I couldn't say
that. I had to give it the twoyear try, because I'm a you
know, perfectionist like you.
Know, whatever I held myself tothat standard. Well, then I got
(20:02):
another job, and that wasn'tright, but I gave it the two
year try, and then I got anotherone. So I was sort of, my
drinking was escalating, mymental health was going down,
and I was job hopping, trying tofigure this out, always being
promoted on my resume like itlooks like I was moving up, but
I was really trying to figure itout. Ultimately, when I quit
drinking, I was after a year ofbeing sober, I was between jobs,
(20:26):
and I was about to get offersfor the same jobs that I had had
and had done and had done well,and I was like, I can't do this
anymore, after the work and selfdiscovery of sobriety, I knew I
had to do work that sung mysoul. I knew my offering looked
different, and I could no longerignore that. So I started ditch
the drink. I started with adigital class to help people,
(20:50):
high achievers like me, with awhole lot more holistic view on
sobriety than I had seen at thattime. And from there, I got in
contact and got certified as aprofessional life coach,
professional recovery coach. Igot a certificate of well being
from Yale University. I became acertified coach of law of
attraction. So then I started toeducate myself, and, you know,
(21:13):
became the kind of person thatcould work one on one with
people. And it actually feltlike a return, a return to my
social work roots for me. So nowI wake up pretty excited about
what I get to do every day, andI run my company the way I want,
and I run it by my intuition,mostly staying very aligned and
very in flow. And I don't thinkI could work for anybody else
(21:35):
now that I've done it formyself, right?
DeAnn Knighton (21:37):
It is such a part of recovery too, is
figuring that piece out. Youknow, once you strip that, like
you said, the escape away. Ifyou don't have that, that place
to go anymore, I don't know,things feel heavier. It kind of
makes you have to look, I think,at some of these things, which
can be hard, but it's also, it'sthe invitation too. At the same
time, I feel
Heather Lowe (21:57):
like it's an elevated life because you're not
willing to go through themotions. I mean, sobriety, for
me, has been an awakening, atrue awakening, and I'm really
grateful for it, and I'm evengrateful that alcohol was a
problem for me because it led toan awakened life. And it took me
a long time to say that, becauseI didn't want alcohol to be my
problem, I didn't want to havean alcohol problem, right? And
(22:19):
it was part of my identity. Ilove being a party girl. I still
love being a party girl. So, Imean, I love my Wisconsin roots.
And you know what I just wrote ablog about, I love beer. I have
an alcohol free brewery herenext to me that I just, you
know, listen to live music, andpretty much got a buzz being
alcohol free, just fromatmosphere and music and company
and the taste of an IPA. So,yeah,
DeAnn Knighton (22:41):
I love it. Okay, well, let's jump over to that. I
think that's so important. Thishas been these last few years in
particular, as it relates to themovement of incorporation of non
alcoholic experiences into oursocial scenes. It's amazing. I
love it. It's, I think, apositive thing for the majority.
The one kind of tricky thing issomething that you've spoke on
(23:04):
you and I both are people whoare abstinent from alcohol.
Obviously, there's all kinds ofpaths to recovery, different
ways people go about that,different levels of relationship
to the substance, all of thosethings that come into play. I'm
curious you know, from yourperspective, just as a coach,
how this has looked for you interms of helping people navigate
(23:24):
these spaces, especially maybeearly on, you had some great
things in your post, just aboutthings to keep in mind. So maybe
if you could just talk usthrough that,
Heather Lowe (23:33):
even the word recovery was uncomfortable to me
until that conference where Imet Liz Gilbert, because I
thought recovery meant goingback to who you were before you
had a substance. So for me, thatwould be like 12 years old, and
I'm in, you know, upper 40, sogoing back to 12 years old
didn't feel right to me. So Idon't even identify in certain
(23:55):
recovery communities, because itnever felt like the right place
for me. But when I I do use theword recovery now because I use
a definition that says healing,that I'm healing, and I think
we're all healing from things.
And kind of at middle age, Ifeel like the first half of my
life has been survival, and thesecond half of my life is kind
of looking at the ways that Isurvived and undoing those
(24:16):
right, figuring out what'swhat's best for me now, knowing
what I know so whether or notyou identify with recovery, it's
okay to be curious about yourrelationship with alcohol, and
there's lots of ways to explorethat. And you're right. We have
so many options, and I'm all foroptions. Options for everybody.
We have alcohol freealternatives. There's low or no
(24:38):
alcohol. There's things thatmimic alcohol, like there's
alcohol free spirits, there'salcohol free wine, there's
alcohol free beer, and thenthere's also all these other
drinks, like kombucha or CBDdrinks, or there's fresh juices
and mocktails, and there's awhole lot of there's liquid
death, which. Which looks likebeer, and it's actually just
(25:00):
sparkling water, right? So, andnow I see that, like, white claw
seltzer has a no alcohol whitecloth, but I'm like, okay, see,
hard, hard. Saw, like, isn'tthat just Seltzer, don't we also
just call that Seltzer, but atoy claw, so it's something
else. Okay, um, so it can be aconfusing world to navigate
(25:23):
there, but there's a lot ofoptions. And I think options are
great. I think it's great tohave options. So it can be very
inclusive. Like you said, forsome people and my clients, they
just, they can keep the ritualand change the drink. So for
some if you're used to cominghome and starting dinner and
having a glass of wine, orsitting in your chair in your
corner and watching your show.
(25:46):
For some, it's just having adrink. And you know what a lemon
Lacroix can serve the samepurpose. For some they want to
put it in a pretty glass andmaybe with a garnish. So some
clients might want to have theirlemon Lacroix in their wine
glass with a slice of lemon, andthey can sit, and it allows them
permission to sit down, or tofinish their drink, or to take a
(26:09):
moment through the day, andkeeping that ritual can be a
healthy thing for them. Forothers, it's not right for
others, it's a trigger. And soit kind of depends what it is to
you, where your head space isand how it feels to you, and
there's no right or wronganswer. It's really customized
to the person. So my experiencewas I didn't have any of that in
(26:31):
my first year because I wasafraid that it would trigger me
after my and want red wineultimately ended up being my
drink of choice. So I startedwith beers, and that brought me
back to, like, way back. Andbeer never really seemed like a
real obvious problem for me. Soit was kind of fun to order a
(26:52):
drink when I was out and fit itthat sense of belonging. Lot of
people drink to belong. So justhaving a drink, it doesn't
matter if there's alcohol or notalcohol, having something that
resembles what everyone else isdoing gives a sense of belonging
and that can be comfortable,right? I thought I was on a
quest to find a good, alcoholfree red wine, because that was
(27:14):
what I thought I love. Well,most taste terrible because beer
is a much easier process toreplicate. And to be honest, the
beers taste pretty much thesame. I've done taste tests in
my neighborhoods, and you can'ttell the difference. So so
there's that you can tell whenalcohol hits your brain, so you
can tell that difference, but asfar as taste goes, they're very
(27:36):
spot on. And wine is differentbecause there's different
processes that it goes through,and often you'll hear it's bad
and it tastes like grape juiceor vinegar or something. And
that's usually right, a whitewine or something with bubbles
or carbonation is easier toreplicate to get that taste on
your tongue, but a red wine isis pretty hard. So I was
searching for this, not likinganything. When I finally found
(27:59):
something, I did find something,and it did taste like red wine,
and I thought this is exactlywhat I was searching for. And
when I tasted it, it scared me,because and it didn't taste like
what I wanted. It tasted likesadness to me. It tasted like
who I was drinking wine by thegallon on the couch alone, and
it was not a taste I wantedanymore. It was not something I
(28:22):
wanted to replicate, but Ididn't know that until I had
tried it, right? And so now Ihave a few, a handful of drinks
that I love, and I drink and Ibring to car club, I bring my
own bottle of wine or whatever,and it's great, and it works for
me. Sometimes when I'm cookingdinner, I'll have a glass of
something, but it really dependswhere you're at and what's going
(28:42):
to work for you. I had a clientwho was really early in her
journey, and Valentine's Day wascoming, and she was thinking
about getting some alcohol freechampagne. She had this whole
special event planned for herhusband, and she was just a few
weeks in, but she was thinkingabout this champagne alcohol
free so much that it wascompulsive thinking about
(29:05):
drinking, right? So I pointedout to her, like you're thinking
as much about this alcohol freechampagne as you would be real
champagne. Let's talk about someother options. What she
ultimately decided was pinklemonade, pink lemonade and
pretty glasses. And that totallyworked for her, and it relieved
her so much to take thischampagne off the table, even
alcohol free. So I would say,pay attention to your thinking
(29:29):
about it and what, what whatyou're trying to do with it, if
you're trying to replacesomething, what benefit is it
bringing to you? Is it a senseof belonging, you know? Is it a
celebration? Is it a ritual, youknow, what is it doing to you?
How do you feel about it? If youfeel afraid of it or scared of
it, it, it might not be for you.
And that can also change overtime. And you don't have to like
(29:51):
it. You never have to like it,you never have to try it. It can
just be for you. I know there'ssomebody who I absolutely. Leah
door, who basically grew up in abar, and she had her first sip
of alcohol free beer with me,and she was like, Absolutely
not. I will I take one sip ofthis? And absolutely not, this
is not for me. I'll never dothat again, you know. And that's
(30:14):
amazing. Enjoy some pineapplejuice and sparkling water,
whatever you want, right? Yeah,
DeAnn Knighton (30:21):
absolutely. You know, I hadn't really thought of
it in terms of determining yourown journey within that until
the recent experience I had. Ihad done a lot of mocktails, and
that always felt really safe tome, because I knew that they
were mixed separately, and Idrank some cocktails, but my
drink of choice was white wine.
And the experience that I hadthat was triggering was
(30:44):
definitely a white wine flightexperience, where it was with
other people at the table whowere all consuming alcohol. I
was the only non alcoholicflight it was brought to the
table the server acted hesitantabout knowing which one was non
alcoholic or not. She smelled itand said, Oh yeah, this is the
non alcoholic hands it to me.
(31:05):
Talk about triggers, right? Likemy whole body went, I don't like
this. This feels awful. This islike everything I didn't want
this experience to be. Now I'mweirded out, you know? Now I'm
uncomfortable. Now I'm makingother people uncomfortable,
because they know me and theycan sense that I'm
uncomfortable. The pleaser in mewas, what do I do with this? And
long and short, it turns outthat I held my ground. I didn't
(31:26):
drink it. It was alcoholic. Mynephew had the non alcoholic
drink in front of him. It was sointeresting, because I had been
talking about all of this somuch, and then that experience
happened, and it was like, ah,yeah, but there is something, as
we are increasing thedistribution of this in all
kinds of different environments.
I think there are some someplaces to be mindful, even as
(31:47):
you know restaurant owners orhow we train our staff, in
understanding that for somepeople, this is a big deal. You
know, they're not ordering a nonalcoholic drink, just for the
heck of it. There may be a goodreason for it. Totally
Heather Lowe (32:03):
yeah, I've had experiences too, where I've had
alcohol in my drinks, and I'vehad, like, even in Mexico, I got
a Diet Coke, just a plain DietCoke, and when it came I sipped
it, it was a rum and coke, andthat taste tasted like my
husband in college. I was like,this is like, Captain Morgan. I
was like, Oh my gosh, thisbrings me back. And then we
started to go, Well, no onewould know. I could just have
(32:26):
this I could just have this one,and no one would know. And,
haha, I'm out of the country andI'm on vacation, and I'm a
silver coach, this would be mysecret. And I'm like, that's why
you don't do it. That's exactlywhy you don't do it, because
it's already messing with yourmind. So definitely be prepared.
Also, I've been, I've beendrinking Heineken 0.0 all night,
and then somebody buys me abeer, and they don't know that
(32:47):
I'm sober, they don't know whatI've been drinking, and they
just want to pay me back with adrink or something, or get
around for the table, and it'shead out. My husband's like,
just so, you know, this hasalcohol, right? Take it. They're
strangers, basically. So I throwit away. I don't have to even
talk about this with people Idon't really know. The other
thing is, I've been on a boatand I've had alcohol free beer,
and the the only thing they had,I think, in the store, was a
(33:10):
alcohol free like Coors, whichis just a cheap beer. So I
thought I had one left, and wewere going to be headed to a
restaurant, and I know that I'vebeen to the restaurant, they
don't have any alcohol freeoptions. I would just be
drinking club soda. So I wantedto have, like, my one last beer
before we went to thisrestaurant. And I dug in the
cooler, and it was they weregone. I had misconducted, or I
(33:32):
didn't know, or I couldn't findit, and I was confused and I was
annoyed, because I had it in mymind that I was going to have
one more beer. And so I myfriends were drinking really
good beer, like craft beers, andI thought, well, I could just
have one of theirs. I guess mineare out. I've been drinking beer
all day. Mine are out. I'll justhave one of theirs, not for
(33:52):
alcohol, not to get dark,nothing like that, just because
I just want one more beer and Idon't even drink. So having one
of theirs will be no big deal.
It's just like I've beendrinking all day. I don't want
the alcohol. What's one beer?
Who cares? And it was like, Ohmy gosh, that's way too close.
No, no, no, no. And so I didn'tI just sucked it up and had my
clothes soda, and life went on.
And it was fine. But I thinkbecause I had been drinking
(34:15):
beer, alcohol free, it just itfelt like an easy thing to slip
into. And again, I don't want todrink alcohol, but I can see the
slippery slope that it could be.
I think that's
DeAnn Knighton (34:27):
important. I also really like what you said
about sadness, because for me,you know, had I taken a sip of
that glass of wine, I don'tthink that it would have sent me
on some crazy road that Iwouldn't have been able to
recover from, but it's that,it's, it's a, almost like a
traumatic response right in mybody and going back, yeah, a lot
(34:50):
of fear just around some reallydifficult times, and that whole
experience, like I it washedover me with like, a level of a
traumatic response. Yes, I thinkthat's interesting that you said
it that way, especially forthose who maybe don't fully
understand the nature ofsubstance use disorder, there's
different levels to whysomething might be triggering,
(35:12):
right?
Heather Lowe (35:12):
And I think you you want to recreate the thing
you're not doing or find asubstitute for that. But the
truth is, what I love about yourstory is you come to a place
where you don't dilute, youdon't pour alcohol, you don't
ignore and you don't numbyourself. You stay very in tune
to your body and its responses.
You pay attention drinkingalcohol is not paying attention,
(35:33):
and you pay a lot of attentionto yourself. So you knew when
that came that that wouldn't befor you. And although you
previously thought you wantedthis experience or to try
something, and you were withpeople that were maybe excited
for you to join in and get to dosomething too, you knew it
wouldn't be right, and you stuckwith yourself. You didn't
(35:53):
abandon yourself and you didn'tdo something just because, and
as a drinker, I bet you didright? You did in yourself, and
you did just pour alcohol onevery feeling, and you didn't
listen to that internal calling.
And the work of sobriety isreally beautiful, because it's
the work of life, it's the workof self discovery, and it
continues. You don't reach amountain where you're five years
(36:14):
sober and now it's done, youhave another summit to climb for
further personal development,and you have all these
opportunities to do that. So theanswer to is an alcohol free
alternative, right? For me ornot, is up to you, right? It's
up to each person, individually.
And again, it can change bybeverage. It can change by time
and sobriety. It can change byenvironment. It really depends.
(36:36):
It really depends. But for somepeople, if they have that
alcohol free beer when they getto a party, that's all they
need, and they're set, and theydon't feel left out. And it it
worked, and it's a real tool forthem, because they're not
they're not at danger for havinga beer, because they just
scratch the itch with thisalcohol free drink, and now
(36:56):
they're good to go. They don'twant alcohol. They just wanted
to be included. You know,
DeAnn Knighton (37:04):
I consider you someone just from following your
work over the last while thatreally is a bridge between a lot
of different worlds that kind ofsurround non drinking for
different reasons. And so Iwanted to ask you about this
area that comes up for me a lot,in the sense of, I'm training
right now to be an addictioncounselor, learning abstinence
(37:24):
model, I'm learning don'ttrigger yourself yet, all the
things I'll be teaching peopleyet, I have this piece of myself
too. I really started to getbetter when I integrated this
into my life in a much morepositive way. And I feel like
choosing not to drink can besomething that can bring people
together for whatever reasonsthey are choosing not to drink,
(37:46):
whatever that might be, and thatthat can reach across all those
different spaces. But I feelsometimes that there is this
push and pull and some energyaround you know, someone who
might be considered sober,curious, looking to moderate
versus somebody who maybe wentthrough a traditional treatment
at some point in time. So I justwant to hear your experience
(38:08):
with this. I'm sure you run intoit. What does that look like
now, and how do we navigate it,to use the advantage of this non
alcoholic movement as a form ofadvocacy instead of something
that pulls people apart? Yeah,
Heather Lowe (38:21):
absolutely. I mean, I've experienced some
polarization with that myself.
In fact, I went on a call andshared my story, and then there
was feedback, like it like Iwasn't bad enough, like it
wasn't drunk enough, like thiswasn't a real story, like it
should have been worse, or thereshould be a rock bottom. And I
would say I woke up miserable. Iwas waking up miserable. It
doesn't have to get worse thanthat, so, but somebody who's had
(38:44):
a different experience and adifferent treatment for their
own protection, you know, mighthave to think something else.
So, and even dry January. Somepeople say dry January is
terrible because it keeps peopledrinking or acting like they
don't have a problem. You don'teat dry January. You need
recovery or whatever. My thoughtis always to each their own, and
(39:07):
there's the path to likerecovery or discovery, however
you want to get is as varied aswe are people. But I don't do
clinical work. I'm a coach. Ilove coaching. I'm a huge fan of
coaching support, and it's notclinical. So certainly, I work
with certain people, but I don'twork with everyone, and I'm not
(39:28):
the right solution for everyone,and I try to help people find
the solutions that are right forthem. I'm not a rehab facility.
I'm not a medication assistedwithdrawal or detox. You know,
there's a lot of things that Idon't offer as a coach, but my I
would have died from alcohol ifI kept drinking, and I know that
100% there would be a diagnosisor a tragedy that was around the
(39:51):
corner for me the way it wasescalating at the end, again,
after 30 years of drinking,which looked normal, most people
said. Me, oh, I've never evenseen you drunk. And I'm like,
that was the goal. Of course, Ihit it. I have a lot of shame. I
was private. I was having onedrink at the block party and
coming home to finish bottles bymyself. I was embarrassed. I
didn't want anyone to know so,so even though I was high
(40:15):
functioning and high leveling, Iwas it was taking me, it was
definitely starting to take meand hijack my brain. And I know
what the ending would look likeif I kept drinking. It would
have been death by alcohol, andit would have been it was coming
for me. It was around thecorner, and thank God I quit,
and I'll never know the end ofthat story. I want to pull
people out further up thestream. We don't have to wait.
We don't have to wait. And mytagline even is like, I help
(40:39):
people before it gets worse, andmy own drinking that was not
that bad kept me from beingamazing for most of my life. You
know, it was taking myconfidence, it was taking my
clarity, it was taking it wasfogging up my spiritual
alignment. And so I'm all forany entry point to exploring
(41:02):
your relationship with alcohol,and I'm for people would say,
like drink less. Most of myclients start with a discovery
call and they want to have aglass of wine at dinner. Every
once in a while, that would betheir goal. And I say, I hear
you, and then what they do isthey take a complete break from
alcohol for 90 days. Because Isay to evaluate your
relationship with alcohol, youhave to remove the alcohol the
(41:24):
minute. If you're evenanticipating alcohol, it changes
your brain chemistry, even theanticipation of it, and then
when you sip it, it changes yourjudgment, decision making,
intuition, like it affects allthese things. So you can't take
a good look at your relationshipwith alcohol while you're
drinking alcohol. So they take abreak, and they see it for what
it is, and they start they losethe desire to drink. They don't
(41:46):
want it anymore. Now they wantto start building their sober
muscle, flexing that a littlebit more, where they don't need
it, where they do vacations andparties and celebrations and
birthdays and holidays andnights out with friends, and
they don't want it anymore. Andso that was me too. I had to
have the experience that I had.
(42:07):
I had to have this on, offdrinking until I figured out
what it what I wanted for mylife, and that it's not for me.
If, if I had to say I was goingto quit drinking for the rest of
my life, I'd probably still bedrinking, right? Because it
terrified me, so I'm just aboutlowering the entry point, making
it a really easy barrier, andlet's normalize not drinking.
(42:29):
Let's normalize alcohol freedrinks. Let's normalize taking
breaks. Let's normalize beingsober. Let's normalize everyone
having their own experience. ButI think to start getting curious
is a great thing to do, and precontemplation, contemplation in
the stages of change that comesbefore change, that's the
natural process. So make it safefor people to start exploring
(42:53):
that, I would say, and forothers, it's a life and death
situation, right? And when it'sa life and death situation, you
need medical support. So thatlooks different for you. But
that doesn't mean this shouldn'tbe available for the people that
need it here in this middle lanedrinking or gray area drinking.
It's sometimes called or for me,just high achievers, that it
(43:13):
looks like you have it togetheron the outside and inside,
you're dying a slow death.
DeAnn Knighton (43:18):
Yeah. Well, thank you for that perspective,
that was really well said.
Let's just talk about anyprojects that you're excited
about this year. You're all overthe place. You're a busy person.
So oh my gosh, I feel
Heather Lowe (43:37):
like like Roy Kent from Ted lasso, like he's here,
he's there, he's everywhere. I'mtrying to focus this year, so,
yeah, I have it everywhere. So Ihave a digital course that my
original ditch the drink. It'sso cute, because it's me one
year sober. So I feel reallyclose to the students. And I
think about updating it, but Ican't, because I'm like, There's
something really special aboutbeing right there with them,
(44:00):
being in my own journey. Sothere's that I have one on one
coaching, of course, 12 weekprogram, but I also have what
I'm excited about as an insidermembership and community was one
of the last things I added in myown journey. And now I'm like,
why did you wait so long?
Because it's so much easier whenyou have people like minded
people to support. So my insidermembership, there's an app so
(44:22):
people can connect. 24/7, wehave meetings twice a week,
Monday evenings and Thursdayafternoons. It's small groups.
There's master classes and allthis prizes and giveaways and
challenges, and it's a reallyfun group to be part of. So I'm
excited about that insidermembership, and that's also
included with all my otherofferings. And then the new
thing I have is I partner withthe International Association of
(44:45):
Professional recovery coaches.
So I also recruit coaches, Imentor coaches, people that want
to be coaches. And now I've justlaunched a business course for
coaches once they're trained orcertified or they have an idea.
In the alcohol free space, andthey want to get that offering
into the world. I teach them todo that because most people are
(45:05):
like me, helpers. Want to be ahelper, but don't know how to
get clients or get the word outabout what they're doing. So if
anyone's interested in learningabout becoming a coach, it's an
unregulated industry, so it'svery confusing. I love to just
educate people on the world ofcoaching in general, and then,
of course, share a little bitabout the program that I work
(45:27):
with, which is, I think the goldstandard. And other people think
the gold standard. It actuallyjust won an award for being the
best overall program, and Irecently won an award for being
a top silver coach. So yeah, Ican say that. I can say that
with pride, like it withconfidence, it is the gold
standard. Love to talk to peopleabout coaching. Love to talk to
people about launching their ownbusiness and coaching practice,
(45:48):
helping practice. Oh,
DeAnn Knighton (45:50):
amazing Heather, thank you so much for doing
this. Yes.
Heather Lowe (45:53):
Thank you for your time, and thank you for having
me on I'm glad we were finallyable to get it done, and it's
great to talk to you, and I loveall the work you're doing, so I
want to continue to support youand everything you're doing. I
mean, like I said, Put me on theteam. I mean, I'm all for it.
Yeah.
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