November 5, 2024 • 40 mins
DeAnn is joined by co-founders of Sobrynth, Marin Nelson and Ingrid Lindberg, to address some big questions, including one big one:
How can technology be leveraged to scale human-centered solutions and care navigation for employees and their families seeking support for substance use disorder while still maintaining the importance of personal connection and empathy?
Marin Nelson
Co-founder and CEO of Sobrynth. 15+ years of enterprise sales career delivering 320% YoY growth and 8-figure SAAS deals. Leader at Salesforce, health tech, and social impact startups. 19 years in recovery.
Ingrid Lindberg
Co-founder of Sobrynth. Ex-customer Experience Officer for Cigna & Prime. Serial founder. 25 years of brand, marketing, and product experience primarily focused on the consumerization of healthcare, focusing on making healthcare more human.
https://sobrynth.com
https://www.linkedin.com/company/sobrynth
If you have questions or comments or would like to be a guest on the Recovery Discovery Podcast, send an email to:
deann@showupandstay.org
More information about our project is available at:
https://www.showupandstay.org/
https://www.soberpositiveworkplace.org/
For podcast updates, follow us on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/showupandstayorg/
Music and Audio Production by Katie Hare.
https://www.hare.works
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
DeAnn Knighton (00:00):
I'm very excited to introduce our guests today.
Today I'm talking to the cofounders of sobering, which
provides 24/7 assistance foremployees and their families who
are seeking support withimmediate substance use disorder
needs and for employees who aresober curious. I'm joined by
soberth co founders Marin Nelsonand Ingrid Lindbergh. Maren is a
(00:24):
former sober positive workplaceguest, actually, and if you
missed that episode with Marin,please go back and listen. In
the episode, we discuss herstory and the path that led her
to be a founding member of soberforce at Salesforce, one of the
first of its kind workplacesolutions for supporting Sud
workplace recovery. Sud meanssubstance use disorder Ingrid.
(00:46):
Is a highly skilled leader andentrepreneur and has been at the
forefront of many significantstartups. She has extensive
experience in branding,marketing and product
development with organizationssuch as Cigna and prime. It's so
great to have you both here.
Thanks for having us. We're sohappy to be here. It's great to
be back. Yeah, I'm excited tolearn more about what you're
doing and the momentum thatyou're experiencing right now.
(01:08):
So Ingrid, let's start this outwith you. In learning a little
bit more about you, reading yourbio, I was drawn to the notion
that you mentioned about makinghealthcare more human, and I
think that might be a good placeto start. I love it, and want to
hear more about how that conceptshows up for you and your work,
and how that may have led you tothis startup that you're a part
(01:30):
of right now. I love thatquestion. Thank you, DeAnn,
making healthcare more human. Iactually stare at the t shirt
that I had made that says thisthat I hand out when I give big
speeches. It's one of myfavorites. When I entered
healthcare 24 years ago, I hadspent my career in financial
services up to that point, and Iremember walking into one of my
(01:50):
first meetings and havingabsolutely no idea what anyone
was talking about, the use ofacronyms, the talking about
numbers, really just the lack ofpersonhood as people were
discussing people, was reallyfrightening to me. So I spent
the last 24 years in healthcare,whether it was within health
(02:13):
insurance companies, startupcompanies in healthcare and then
running a consultancy for thelast decade that did a lot of
work with all of the healthcareecosystem, and one of the things
that I have always focused on ishow to actually bring faces and
names and stories to the numberswithin healthcare. And I was
always fascinated by howaltruistic healthcare workers
(02:36):
are, regardless of what part ofthe ecosystem they're in, but
they get really far removed fromthe humanity of someone going
through something, whether it isa diabetes struggle or a cancer
diagnosis or in vitro. And soworking towards making
healthcare more human in thebroader healthcare world has
(02:58):
been very important to me, andwhen Marin approached me and
asked me about whether or notI'd be willing to join her on
her journey to start so Brent,it just made such perfect sense
to me, because I think in thisspace, we have done a really
good job of dehumanizing peoplewho are struggling with
substance use disorder. We havedone a really good job of not
(03:20):
paying attention to the scaleand the human impact that
substance use disorder has on afamily, on a team, on a person.
And so what a great fit rightbeing able to take that how can
we bring these stories to lightand to life in a world where
people have really been treatedas numbers and something that
(03:42):
needed to be solved in abasement, not out in public,
yeah, oh, man, I love that. Ihave to say, it brought up for
me. I so I'm a person inrecovery who at different times
have felt very close to myrecovery and my experience, and
I'm now also in school, beingeducated to become a counselor
and working in internships andworking with people who are
(04:06):
struggling. And I have to say toyour point there, there's an
active effort on my part tostill always stay connected to
sort of the heart of what I'mdoing. And this is someone who
went through it, right? And itjust shows how easy it can be to
get that distance very quickly,especially when you just are
kind of putting your head downtrying to get boxes checked, all
(04:27):
of that good stuff. So yeah, Ilove that. Well, thank you so
Marin. I'm so glad to have youhere again. I listened to that
episode that we did, and I wasreminded that we have a lot in
commonevery time I hear that one. You
know, obviously this area offocus for us is one area that we
definitely align on. And I wouldlove to hear how your story and
(04:48):
your experiences have shaped thevision of sobering Thank you.
Well, it's so good to be back. Ifeel like we just had a talk
like yesterday, but it.
Marin Nelson (05:05):
yeah, you know, it's been it's a journey. And I
think the more time that we arein this work at sobrant, the
more reflections I'm going tohave of my own personal lived
experience and how it plays inbecause I never intended to
bring recovery into my worklife. That was not my plan. I
was not someone who's like, Oh,I'm gonna go work in the
(05:25):
recovery field. I kept it veryseparate, and I didn't hide my
recovery in the workplace. Butthere really is never, or was
never, a platform to share it.
So I would find myself in thesesituations, and I knew, in
theory, that there must be othersober people in the workplace,
and there are definitely peoplestruggling with substance use
disorder, but I had no way offinding them, because where am I
(05:47):
going to lead with that at awork meeting like you're not
going to kick it off withalthough I was terrified I would
one day like, Hi, I'm Mar andI'm an alcoholic. I was so
scared that first year of myrecovery that I was going to
slip and say that in a meetingand be horribly embarrassed. I
think it did happen once, but itmust not have been that
embarrassing, because I barelyremember it. So you know my work
experience, how they've informedthe creation of sober and has
(06:10):
been this reflection back of my19 years of recovery and
thinking about those spaces andtimes where I had to navigate
pretty tricky situations forsomeone who is trying to stay
sober. Someone did a post theother day on LinkedIn, and I was
reflecting on all of thosespaces that you have to navigate
within, like beer kegs in the,you know, the work kitchen,
(06:36):
because there was a party thenight before and it was left
over, and so they just rolled itinto the kitchen. Into the
kitchen, and then you're goingdown there to grab a sparkly
water and you have to walk pastthe keg, and it's like, I don't
want to see that now. I'mthinking about that, right? Or a
bottle of champagne being sentfor a job well done. And you're
like, Well, cool, that was awaste of money. I wish you would
have just sent me a checkearning President's Club and
(07:00):
having it be like a very boozebased event, and not not feeling
like a reward to someone who'sin recovery, that feels like a
big anxiety producing situationto navigate. So all of these
moments that I never you know,it's complicated to talk about
it, because I never wanted tocome across like victimhood. It
is my own responsibility to staysober in whatever space I
(07:23):
occupy, and also, there werelots of tricky situations that
could have been more inclusiveand could have made safer for
employees like me and for theemployee who's trying to find
their sobriety or their footing,who show up at a happy hour
that's hosted by their boss, andthe only option going around is
(07:45):
wine, and they just go, forgetit. I guess I'll try again
another day, right? So it'slike, how can we make these
small shifts so thoseexperiences of staying sober in
a workplace where, and I'll behonest, this isn't about, you
know, I'm in sales. I've alwaysbeen in sales, but before I
entered sales, I was anonprofit. And people will say
to me, like, is this justbecause it's like, high tech
(08:07):
sales, this is, like, this hugedrinking culture. I'm like,
Listen, this drinking culturesituation is in any space, in
academia, in attorney circles,in healthcare circles, in
nonprofit circles, like, it isjust everywhere. Statistics,
hospitality, so, yeah,hospitality, construction. Like,
yes, there are certainindustries that have higher
(08:29):
rates. But I don't want peopleto get tripped up of being like,
Oh, it's a Silicon Valleyproblem, or, Oh, it's a
construction problem. Like, no,this is just like the world at
large and definitely the US.
There's 46 million who aresuffering with substance use
disorder right now, and most ofthose individuals are in the
(08:49):
workplace. 70% of them are inthe workplace. So the numbers
are astounding, right? One in 10employees you can assume, have
substance use disorder. And sohow can we collectively
make workplace a more safe andinclusive space for those
employees who are sober andsober curious, so that they can
(09:10):
be their best employee selves,because it actually just
benefits everyone, like you're amore present and productive
employee, if you're someonewho's in recovery, and you feel
supported in your recovery, likeyou're going to be a pretty
committed employee, and you'regoing to produce really well,
DeAnn Knighton (09:26):
that actually leads me to think about your
model. What has happenedhistorically as it relates to
the issue of substance usedisorder? So often it's this
pendulum swing that is like,Okay, everyone for themselves,
or, Oh, we're going to shut thewhole thing down. Let's you
know, prohibition, right?
There's like two choices withinthe equation that are so often.
I think what we end up latchingon to that is, so what creates
(09:49):
the need for these more nuancedapproaches to this issue?
Because nobody wants that. Thatdoesn't make sense. It's never
going to work, right? Just say,okay, yeah, just don't have
booze at work or anywhere nearwork. That doesn't make sense.
How can we create spaces andunderstanding and awareness and
take that little bit of extratime just pay attention and
(10:10):
recognize some of these things.
And it doesn't have to meansomething bigger than that. It's
a great question.
Marin Nelson (10:18):
It's very thoughtful. And you're right.
This is not. We are not lookingto be the alcohol police. This
is not about removing allsubstances from the workplace at
all that does not serve anyone.
No one wants to be told what todo with their own choices when
it comes to alcohol or othersubstances. That is not the
goal. The goal is and the in themodel is an a recognition that
(10:41):
data shows that people are morelikely to get sober through
workplace intervention thanfamily and friends. That's one
data point. Data shows thatemployees in recovery save their
employees $8,700 a year. I'veseen higher numbers too, on
(11:02):
average, because they are moreproductive, they turn over at
lower rates, they are present,they take fewer days off. Their
medical spend is less so thereare a lot of great data points
for why we should be encouragingour sober employees to stay
sober, our struggling employeesto get help and have easier
(11:24):
pathways to getting help, andthe impact to the broader set of
employees that two and threepeople are impacted in their two
and three in their familieshaving substance use disorder.
So arguably, this is like nearlyever, and I think that number is
understated, but that's what thedata says. You know, nearly
everyone has a story, right? Andso we're in this movement where
(11:46):
we're told to bring our fullselves to work, and yet, we
haven't figured out how to talkabout something that's impacting
almost all of us. And so thesobering model is really around
it's two parts. One part is therecognition of how critical it
(12:07):
is to change culture to berecovery friendly. And so what
does that mean? How do yougather? How do you help
employees find each other? Like,what I was saying when I was
like, how was I going to findpeople like me to go to the
conference and, like, bandtogether to navigate the happy
hour where it feels likeeveryone's drinking and you feel
like a weird outsider, but like,You got to be there for your
(12:27):
work. You don't want to riskyour sobriety. You know it's
like, How much easier is thatwhen you could just, like, find
another sober friend to, like,walk around with, for example,
how much easier is it to go to acompany kickoff and have non
alcoholic champagne presented asan option for you to grab
without having to say, I'msober, I can't do the toast. Why
do you have a water bottle?
(12:48):
Martin, that's so weird. It'slike, just make it easy, right?
So like these very small changesthat are embedded within our
culture, where today wecelebrate with, we reward with
we gather with alcohol. How dowe make that inclusive of non
alcoholic options? So that's onepart culture change. How do we
talk about it? How do we helpeach other? How do we normalize
(13:11):
it? How do we destigmatizeaddiction? How do we recognize
this as a disease state, not amoral failing, right? So that's
the culture change. And then theother part of our solution is,
how do we provide help andnavigation at the time of need?
So for us, that means we provide24/7 365, care, navigation and
(13:31):
coaching for employees andfamilies, wherever they are in
the spectrum. So to your pointof like this black and white,
either or this is like we arehere to meet you with whatever
your goal is. And maybe yourgoal is that you want to drink
only three days a week, notseven days a week. Like,
awesome. We can help you withthat. Maybe your goal is that
you want to take a month off andyou're not really sure how to do
that. We can help you with that.
Like, maybe your goal is thatyou want to get your kiddo into
(13:54):
the best inpatient care that youcan find, and you don't know how
to pick a place. We can help youwith that. So there is a
spectrum of use, because, likeall diseases, there is a
spectrum right of severity. Andif we can have this conversation
in the workplace before peoplehave lost their jobs as a result
of untreated substance usedisorder, can we maybe change
(14:17):
this trend line, which iscontinuing to accelerate up and
instead reach people beforethey're in a clinical state of
crisis. And we think we can. Wethink that by having this
conversation openly, andnormalizing this conversation,
and making these pathways tocare easier, then we can make
these numbers change, the bigpicture numbers, right? Like we
(14:40):
have too many people sufferingin silence right now, we have to
do better.
DeAnn Knighton (14:46):
I'm curious, how are the conversations going in
spaces where people aren'tfamiliar with this concept?
Yeah,
Marin Nelson (14:52):
so it's going great. It's going fast. So
that's awesome, because it meansthe market feels finally ready
to. Have this conversation. Soyay for that, for something that
has been hidden in the basementforever, coming up, and I think
that it's informed by the COVIDcrisis. The COVID crisis was a
forcing function to talk aboutmental health in the workplace,
(15:14):
and substance use disorder is afast follow what we saw the
market do, and the market still,to some extent, is doing is
trying to use a one size fitsall mental health solution to
solve for substance substanceuse disorder and sober
curiosity. And our perspectiveis that, because this is one in
(15:34):
10 employees who are activelysick with untreated substance
use disorder, and of the 46million who have Sud only 6%
have sought treatment in thepast year. This is too big of a
problem and too big of a need tobe an afterthought of a mental
health first. Now that doesn'tmean that we don't get the
intersection. I am someone whohas anxiety disorder that I
(15:57):
treat and I have substance usedisorder that I treat, and they
first sure go hand in hand, andalso my ways of treating them
are different. And so I neededdifferent pathways for both. And
so we want to be anotherpathway, right? So if you can
get sober through therapy,amazing, but maybe you need
therapy, and also a local 12step meeting and also an
(16:20):
outpatient program to get youstarted, right? And so we need
those care navigation pathwaysto be broader, specific to
substance use disorder anddedicated to it. And that part,
as far as how is it beingreceived? Nearly every single HR
leader we have spoken with getsit. They're like, Yep, I don't,
(16:43):
you know. Now, I don't know ifanyone will full out say I don't
know what to do, but the truthis, like, we're expecting a lot
of our HR leaders, like theremost therapists are not even
trained in substance usedisorder as a specialty, right?
So this assumption that everyoneknows how to talk about if
they're in the mental healthfield is not true. That's
inaccurate. How do we expect ourHR teams to know what to do and
(17:04):
what to say if an employee comesin, especially if they're an HR
leader of a multi state, right?
Like if their employees arespread out across the US or all
over the globe, how in the worldare they supposed to know where
to point someone so we arereally trying to take that lift
off of HR shoulders. We have alot of compassion for what's
being asked of them, and we wantto be a partner in the effort to
(17:28):
help employees, right? So whereI would love to see more
research done. So this will bemy ask of anyone listening,
who's a researcher we know andNew York Times just came out
with another researchhighlighted a new research that
came out that connects untreatedsubstance use disorder with
earlier cancers, youngercancers. So there is direct
(17:51):
correlation between moderatedrinking, which is one drink or
less for women, two drinks orless a day, sorry, this is a day
for men to increase risk ofcolorectal cancer, which is
scary, especially when I don'tknow about you, but I definitely
know cases in my own communitywhere young people are getting
breast cancer and colorectalcancer, and now we know that
(18:15):
alcohol is a factor in this. Sothere is this. It feels like the
boogeyman of substance usedisorder that lurks within
health results but is not yetreally fully understood
collectively. If that makessense, like we have the data
that says it's connected tountreated or unmanaged,
(18:38):
mismanaged diabetes andhypertension and heart disease
and cancers and all right, allthese disease states. But if you
look at the claims data, you'renot going to see substance use
disorder. You're going to seeblood pressure or right? So we
just have work to do from how wemake decisions of what benefits
(18:58):
we purchase at companies isoften based on claims analysis,
and this is a tricky one, and soI think it means that it's left
not dealt with when it justneeds to be dealt with
DeAnn Knighton (19:12):
Ingrid, I'd love to hear from you on this. It's
kind of a big question that wewon't fully answer, but you
know, as someone who hasnavigated the complexities of
private care public care andapproaches to health care and
solutions for problems that arecomplex, like this one. Where do
you anticipate that we're goingto see improvements in the way
(19:33):
that is headed, and where do youthink we'll continue to see
obstacles? That's
Ingrid Lindberg (19:37):
a massive question. You know that DeAnn,
it's not fair, so I'm going tobreak it into three parts,
right? So there's the existingsilos, there's what we're hoping
to solve with sober and thenthere's the obstacles. Can we
flip it that way? And we'll dothat. So the existing silos,
right? With the existing silos,I actually think there are
three, because we have theprivate sector, meaning all of
(19:59):
the. Pay for treatment worldsthat exist, we have the private
sector with a sub of EmployeeBenefits, right? And then we
have public sector. So it'sactually three, because I split
that employee benefits out,because they don't actually
always talk to the privatesector offerings, right? So
you've got those three sets ofsolutions right now that are all
completely siloed and don'treally spend much time together
(20:23):
figuring out how to help anyonenavigate that. And if you start
thinking about the complexitythat sits within each of those
right to your point, maybethere's peer coaching, maybe
there's inpatient, maybe there'soutpatient, there's, I mean,
there's so many pieces that falloff of each of those three
silos. What we're trying tosolve with sobering is actually
(20:43):
acting as the connector foremployees to all of those
options and all of thoseopportunities. If you think
about you know, we, we arecurrently building relationships
with recovery communityorganizations across the
country, right? We're matchingour peer recovery coaches to
those rcos, because we seeourselves as a feeder for people
who need help, who may not knowthat that's an option for them.
(21:06):
We see our coaches as person whocan help connect to what is the
best solution for you based onwhat your needs are and what
your wants are. So those silos,those three sets of silos, I
don't anticipate those comingany closer organically, unless
it's mandated at the federallevel. Right until then, we have
(21:29):
to create that wrapper aroundthem so that people can actually
find the care and the help thatthey need for themselves or for
another. And right now, as youknow, it is absolutely
impossible to do that right? Youcan't necessarily find
information that is up to date.
I was spending time, and havebeen spending an enormous amount
of time on all sorts ofdifferent websites that are
current aggregators. Date, youknow, update, last update was
(21:53):
2021, 2022, you start makingphone calls. It's not only that
they're not available, or thereisn't a bed available, or the
meeting room is no longercorrect. It's at the
organization no longer exists.
So if we can figure out a placeto solve that for people, I feel
like that's one of the biggestopportunities that sits here is,
(22:14):
can we just take the lift ofthat navigation off of human
resources, off of you as anemployee, because especially if
you sit in I'm a Gen Xer, I sitin this beautiful sandwich
generation, where we are takingcare of our parents, the
boomers, who have some of thehighest substance use disorder
rates of any generation we'veseen, and we're taking care of
(22:35):
our kids, and we all know whatit looks like today, right? So
it's that up, down, over mycolleagues, my employees,
there's so much of a lift thatcan be brought simply by
providing navigation and takingthat work off of your shoulders
as a human. Last piece is thatobstacle, right? The obstacles,
I think what's reallyinteresting, and I'm brand new
(22:56):
to this space, right? I'veworked in healthcare forever,
recovery, substance usedisorder. All of these terms
were never discussed in any ofthe boardrooms that I've sat in
for the last 20 years. This wasalways something that was a sub
bullet to behavioral health, notmental health, behavioral
health, right? So using theterminology that is still used
(23:17):
to this day in a lot of thesevery large healthcare
organizations, I think that theobstacles that we're going to
see are a this does need to beheld to a space where it can
have its own set of solutions.
It cannot always be tucked undermental health. So we're going to
have to help convince themarketplace that this is really
important where it sits andbecause it sits on its own. And
(23:40):
the argument that I would giveis we don't just have cancer
care, we have breast cancercare, we have colon cancer care,
we have bone cancer care, right?
And those are very specificspecialties that help people
navigate very complexsituations. I would say
substance use disorder sitsthere, but that's an obstacle.
To try to teach people thatthat's how we should actually be
(24:00):
looking at this right? Let'sgive it the space that it needs,
and then secondarily, it'sinteresting to me, because when
we first started talking to someorganizations, they were pretty
hesitant to talk to us, andthere was a perception that we
were going to take. And one ofthe obstacles we've been facing
that I think is fascinating, butwe've really been able to help
organizations navigate this is,if we do our job, right, we're
(24:23):
bringing people to you that needhelp. We're not here providing
the actual solution. We're justconnecting people in your
community to you when theycouldn't find you on their own
because they didn't have time,they didn't have capacity, they
didn't have the wherewithal. So,right? That's that's a lot in
that question of what'shappening between the public and
the private sector, but I thinkthat's what's going to happen. I
(24:47):
think that's what we're going tosee. What do you think, DeAnn,
you're deep in this? Couldn't
DeAnn Knighton (24:50):
agree more with some of the shifts that we're
seeing around the alignment ofthe mental health, behavioral
health umbrellas, and it'sfascinating. Right? Because I
have to tell you, I have kind oftwo perspectives on it. My work
is CO occurring disordertreatment, so people who are
dealing with more than oneissue, right? So within that,
there's this piece of me thatsays, well, care has to be
(25:12):
integrated. It has to be becauseyou're one human being, so your
care plan has to be integratedto you. But then when you think
of it in context of like, what'sreality and how we operate with
the current situation, that wehave. Everything that you're
saying resonates with me aswell. You know, it can be easy
for me to feel like, why isthere so much stigma on
(25:33):
substance use that doesn't needto be there? Is it because we
have isolated it? But there'salso that reality, that it is
different and nuanced andcomplicated. It's an interesting
thing to reflect on. And Marin,I don't know if you have
anything you wanted to add hereon this particular topic before
we move on,
Marin Nelson (25:52):
just that. My hope is that we the collective, we
can bring a growth mindset andan openness to how we're going
to collectively solve thisproblem. Because, to Ingrid's
point, our goal is to be aconnector, so that people are
(26:13):
not left alone with Google totry to figure it out, because
that's what's happening, right?
And so that awareness of like,what is missing was my
experience in CO founding soberforce and being president to
sober force at Salesforce, andI, because I was a face of it,
and a lot of ways would getphone calls from employees who
were struggling and looking forhelp. And so they'd call me,
(26:34):
they weren't going to call HR,and if they called our EAP, they
they were not happy with thatexperience, because the EAP was
like, here are some randomtreatment centers that are
covered by your insurance.
Here's your insurance phonenumber. Go call and attain Grace
point. They'd go call, and asmost people know, a lot of
times, that data is out of dateeven with your insurance
(26:56):
company, the provider directoryis not always current. And so
they'd call and there wouldn'tbe availability, or they
wouldn't get an answer, or theywouldn't take their teenager,
and they're like, What the heck,I just used the resource I was
supposed to use, and now I feeleven more alone and more
overwhelmed. And so then theycall me, what do I do? Where do
I send my kid? And I'm like, Idon't I don't know. Like, I
(27:18):
didn't even go to treatmentmyself. My journey was 12 step,
so I felt terrible that Icouldn't be more effectively
helpful for these employees whowere calling me asking for help,
who were very vulnerable anddidn't feel like they knew where
else to turn. And that was whatled to lots of discussions with
(27:39):
Ingrid, and led to, thencreating sobering together,
which was like, how is that thebest we can do right now? Like,
and everyone has their, I think,their own lived experience and
so so personal, right? A lot ofpeople who work in recovery are
also in recovery themselves. Andso I think we can, we can be and
(28:04):
maybe it's true for any otherillness too, like, well, I did
chemo and I did this, andtherefore that's the solution.
And so I think people thinktheir own journey is can be the
solution for everyone. And so Ithink what my hope is that we
can collectively recognize thateveryone's sobriety journey is
personal and can look differentfrom each other, and they can
(28:29):
all be right? There is not onepath, right? So while 12 step
works for me, and it's stillsomething I'm a part of, I am
not one of those people who saysit's the only way, and if you
don't do it, you're never goingto stay sober, because I think
that's really unfair, right? Sohow instead, can we say, hey,
how do we collaborate and shareour best practices together and
(28:52):
recognize that there are 46million people out there to help
and then all of the familymembers who have been impacted,
and how can we do a better jobconnecting with each other to
best serve these individuals whoneed help. That's what my hope
is. I was
DeAnn Knighton (29:06):
just thinking about those that I've talked to
with chronic pain, and how oftenwhen they maybe discuss, hey, I
have this going on for me. Thecommon complaint you hear is
like everybody is giving themtheir solution. Oh, I had neck
thing, here's what I did, but itdoesn't always feel supportive
to that person receiving it. Itjust, it just gets more and more
(29:27):
annoying, probably the more ithappens. So I don't know, I
think of that relating here tosome degree, right? There is
something beautiful about peoplewho understand what you're going
through. But there also has tobe that feeling of like, this is
also about you, not about thatperson's experience, whatever
that was. DeAnn,
Marin Nelson (29:44):
I don't know if I share this with you the last
time we spoke, but you know, I Ithink my passion for advocacy of
everyone having their own rightto their own path comes from my
own experience when I was. 24and in New York City and going
to a treatment facility for anassessment, and the licensed
(30:07):
alcohol drug counselor was doingtheir job. I don't fault them.
This is how they were trained,right? And they did my
assessment. They said, wow,yeah, you are drinking a
dangerous amount, like youshould probably go to inpatient.
And I was like, yeah, no, I'mnot going to do that. And
they're like, Okay, well, thenyou've at a minimum, need to go
to outpatient. I said, Yeah, I'mnot going to do that. Like, I
(30:29):
don't actually feel like that'swhat I need. I want to stop
drinking. I want help. I know Ineed help. I know I can't do
this anymore. It's not safe, butI love my job. I'm not
interested in leaving my job. Idon't feel like I need
outpatient. And I will neverforget this woman like it almost
makes me teary for my like, 24year old self, who is so scared
and so vulnerable in that momentasking for help and being told
(30:51):
by a professional well, thenyou're probably going to drink
again. You're probably not goingto stay sober if you're not
willing to do this. And I was soflipping mad, and I was like,
watch me stay sober, and I havestayed sober for 19 years since
that spite, okay, spite. I willnever drink again. No, luckily,
(31:12):
have other reasons now, butright that I marched myself to a
meeting in New York City, and Icried in the meeting, and I
shared what had just happened,and I was like, please talk to
me after the meeting if you havestayed sober through me, like
through AA, because I just gottold that I'm doomed, and I
refuse to believe that that'strue. But I had an example of a
(31:36):
dad who got sober through the 12step rooms, and uncles who got
sober through the 12 step rooms,and my dad didn't go to
treatment center, so I knew itwas possible, but what if I
hadn't had that example? Sothat's what fires me up, as I'm
like, How dare you tell someone,and I get that person who's
probably trying to just help,and based on data, maybe I was
(31:56):
more, I don't know, but like,treatment's not a solve all,
catch all, either, right, mostpeople go to treatment go back
seven times like we don't have asilver bullet for substance use
disorder. So can we stop tryingto prescribe to everyone what
they have to do, and instead,can we listen and say, what are
you willing to do? What do youwant to do? What works for your
(32:17):
life, and then find a pathwayfor them. Because there are lots
of different options out there,but that's the work that our
coaches are trained in, is howto listen and then leverage the
resources in that person'scommunity to help get them to
the thing that they're willingand wanting to do.
DeAnn Knighton (32:35):
Well, you know, I'd love to pivot this a little
bit, because I think it reallyplays into this. I'd like to
have you both comment on this.
But you know, this podcast, mybrother is kind of the
technology side of thisequation, and he comes from that
viewpoint, and I come from sortof the lived experience side. He
has a lot of the human side too.
So I'm not going to say hedoesn't also have that. But
(32:56):
around here, we kind of havefelt like there's room for all
things in the solution, and eventhe podcast slogan is a little
bit of technology and science,but mostly storytelling and
heart. And so it's this ideathat all of those things can
live together. They're notmutually exclusive. It's all
hands on deck related to solvingproblems. But that said, I have
encountered myself that when I'mtalking to individuals, they can
(33:19):
often feel kind of conflictedabout the role of technology
solutions in this biggerproblem, particularly those
maybe in the clinical side thatare so believe so much in in the
power of that human humanconnection, which is powerful
and is incredibly important. Butit can almost be this dismissal
that there are not things, froma technology standpoint, that
(33:39):
can also help to support andbuild upon what happens through
that human connection. And sowhen I think of what you've
described as your project, I seethat you know that aggregate,
aggregator piece that you weretalking about that's just an
accelerator to help put togetherthat bigger piece of the human
connection. So it kind of soundslike an outdated question or
(34:00):
maybe past, but I don't believewe are. Can you speak to your
perspective on the role oftechnology and promoting human
connection, healing and care?
Marin Nelson (34:09):
I'll start with the first part, and then I'm
going to have Ingrid speak tothe the how sobering is doing
it, but just for the framing oflived experience, of technology
being the point of connectionbetween humans. We use Slack at
Salesforce, for the sober forcegroup, to communicate with each
other. That is technology thatscaled across the globe that all
(34:33):
75,000 employees had access to,and we chose to use that channel
in a public way so that everyonecould see the conversation we
were having, because we knew,due to stigma, there would be at
least 10x if not 20x watchingfrom the sidelines, not joining
the group as a member. So not anemail list you'd have to sign up
(34:54):
for to get and then beassociated to, but a public
chat. Fact that everyone couldwatch and gain from and that
turned out to be true. Peoplewould then, months into it, say,
I've been watching from thesidelines. I'm really proud to
say I've 60 days sober. It'sbecause of this group that I had
(35:16):
the courage to stop drinking. Ifwe would have made that group
private, or only meet in person,or only have write a phone call,
we would have left out all ofthose individuals who, because
of this technology, couldbenefit from the conversation
that we were having at the endof the day. It was still human
(35:37):
to human connection, but thetechnology was a way to get
everyone connected, right? Itwas a way to get everyone the
information that they needed. SoI guess I'll just leave it
there. I just wanted to frame uplike that's a great example, I
think, of how you can usetechnology in a way that gave us
(35:57):
much greater results. We had 500employees actively join as
members within five months time.
That would not have happened ifwe would have done this in an
analog way.
Ingrid Lindberg (36:08):
So I think there's two pieces to this.
DeAnn number one is it's alwaysabout tech equal scale, right?
Tech allows us to scale humans.
Right? Humans have limitedability to scale. Tech has
endless ability to scale. Sowhere can we take pieces that
can make it easier for ourpeople to be able to reach more
(36:28):
people more rapidly? I thinkthat's always a great solution,
right? The proverbial tech andtouch, when we start getting
into what we're seeing somepeople do with AI and rushing to
adopt still a pretty strongbelief structure that we've
gotta establish some hardcoreguard rails and policies. We
have to make sure that it alignswith our objectives and our
(36:53):
ethical standards. And we knowthat when people are in an
emergent moment, right? We knowthat they actually want to get
to a human. We don't have thatdata in this space, because this
space hasn't existed beforesobering started, right? So
taking all of our years ofexperience on what has happened
(37:14):
within healthcare with everyother disease state, when you're
in an emergency situation, youneed a human. And I think this
will just be, you know, we'llsee if I'm making it the right
bet here. This is the brain,right? My belief structure is
that we're going to see a lot ofemergent situations. I need help
now. So if we can figure out howto rapidly assist our touch, our
(37:38):
humans, our coaches, to be ableto serve our clients as fast as
we can in the moments where theyneed us. That's the perfect
marriage of, how can we use techto actually allow that human to
human connection at scale?
Because if we don't use tech toenable the scale, then we just
(38:00):
won't be able to solve forenough people fast enough. So
that's how we're thinking aboutit, right? Tech and touch tech
for scale. Ai with guardrails.
That's
DeAnn Knighton (38:09):
great. Well, thank you. This has been
amazing. I'm so excited to seeand be on the sidelines watching
what y'all are doing, and Iappreciate you being here to
chat with us today, and maybewe'll do this again down the
line, when some things haveevolved even more. Who knows
anything else from the two ofyou that you'd like to say
before we get out of here today?
Marin Nelson (38:31):
Just so we would love to talk to you. So if you
are an individual who is inrecovery, or a sober ally or a
leader in a company where you'relike, Yeah, we need to be having
this conversation. We'd love tochat. We'd love to help. The
data shows that there's a needfor a tremendous amount of
education on how to do this inthe workplace, and that's
(38:52):
exactly what we're here for. Soit's okay to reach out and say,
I have no idea how, but I knowwe need to, let's talk. We
welcome those those messages, soplease do reach out to us. You
can find us on LinkedIn, andwe'll make sure DeAnn has our
link so you can contact us, sothat we can come in and and help
(39:15):
you know, our hope is that everycompany becomes a recovery,
friendly workplace, and thatthat is just the norm and not an
outlier experience. So we hopeto be in talks with anyone who's
listening, who's interested.
Ingrid Lindberg (39:29):
You know, I think the only thing that I
would add to this, just inwrapping DeAnn, is I do a shout
out to all of my peers out therein corporate America. This is
not something that those who arein the recovery community needs
to be doing on their own. It'sactually up to us as allies to
create this space and to be ableto make these changes. So come
(39:49):
and join right this is about usactually being aware and making
changes within the organizationsthat we lead to ensure that work
is safe for all.
I'm very excited to introduce our guests today.
Today I'm talking to the cofounders of sobering, which
provides 24/7 assistance foremployees and their families who
are seeking support withimmediate substance use disorder
needs and for employees who aresober curious. I'm joined by
soberth co founders Marin Nelsonand Ingrid Lindbergh. Maren is a
(00:24):
former sober positive workplaceguest, actually, and if you
missed that episode with Marin,please go back and listen. In
the episode, we discuss herstory and the path that led her
to be a founding member of soberforce at Salesforce, one of the
first of its kind workplacesolutions for supporting Sud
workplace recovery. Sud meanssubstance use disorder Ingrid.
(00:46):
Is a highly skilled leader andentrepreneur and has been at the
forefront of many significantstartups. She has extensive
experience in branding,marketing and product
development with organizationssuch as Cigna and prime. It's so
great to have you both here.
Thanks for having us. We're sohappy to be here. It's great to
be back. Yeah, I'm excited tolearn more about what you're
doing and the momentum thatyou're experiencing right now.
(01:08):
So Ingrid, let's start this outwith you. In learning a little
bit more about you, reading yourbio, I was drawn to the notion
that you mentioned about makinghealthcare more human, and I
think that might be a good placeto start. I love it, and want to
hear more about how that conceptshows up for you and your work,
and how that may have led you tothis startup that you're a part
(01:30):
of right now. I love thatquestion. Thank you, DeAnn,
making healthcare more human. Iactually stare at the t shirt
that I had made that says thisthat I hand out when I give big
speeches. It's one of myfavorites. When I entered
healthcare 24 years ago, I hadspent my career in financial
services up to that point, and Iremember walking into one of my
(01:50):
first meetings and havingabsolutely no idea what anyone
was talking about, the use ofacronyms, the talking about
numbers, really just the lack ofpersonhood as people were
discussing people, was reallyfrightening to me. So I spent
the last 24 years in healthcare,whether it was within health
(02:13):
insurance companies, startupcompanies in healthcare and then
running a consultancy for thelast decade that did a lot of
work with all of the healthcareecosystem, and one of the things
that I have always focused on ishow to actually bring faces and
names and stories to the numberswithin healthcare. And I was
always fascinated by howaltruistic healthcare workers
(02:36):
are, regardless of what part ofthe ecosystem they're in, but
they get really far removed fromthe humanity of someone going
through something, whether it isa diabetes struggle or a cancer
diagnosis or in vitro. And soworking towards making
healthcare more human in thebroader healthcare world has
(02:58):
been very important to me, andwhen Marin approached me and
asked me about whether or notI'd be willing to join her on
her journey to start so Brent,it just made such perfect sense
to me, because I think in thisspace, we have done a really
good job of dehumanizing peoplewho are struggling with
substance use disorder. We havedone a really good job of not
(03:20):
paying attention to the scaleand the human impact that
substance use disorder has on afamily, on a team, on a person.
And so what a great fit rightbeing able to take that how can
we bring these stories to lightand to life in a world where
people have really been treatedas numbers and something that
(03:42):
needed to be solved in abasement, not out in public,
yeah, oh, man, I love that. Ihave to say, it brought up for
me. I so I'm a person inrecovery who at different times
have felt very close to myrecovery and my experience, and
I'm now also in school, beingeducated to become a counselor
and working in internships andworking with people who are
(04:06):
struggling. And I have to say toyour point there, there's an
active effort on my part tostill always stay connected to
sort of the heart of what I'mdoing. And this is someone who
went through it, right? And itjust shows how easy it can be to
get that distance very quickly,especially when you just are
kind of putting your head downtrying to get boxes checked, all
(04:27):
of that good stuff. So yeah, Ilove that. Well, thank you so
Marin. I'm so glad to have youhere again. I listened to that
episode that we did, and I wasreminded that we have a lot in
commonevery time I hear that one. You
know, obviously this area offocus for us is one area that we
definitely align on. And I wouldlove to hear how your story and
(04:48):
your experiences have shaped thevision of sobering Thank you.
Well, it's so good to be back. Ifeel like we just had a talk
like yesterday, but it.
Marin Nelson (05:05):
yeah, you know, it's been it's a journey. And I
think the more time that we arein this work at sobrant, the
more reflections I'm going tohave of my own personal lived
experience and how it plays inbecause I never intended to
bring recovery into my worklife. That was not my plan. I
was not someone who's like, Oh,I'm gonna go work in the
(05:25):
recovery field. I kept it veryseparate, and I didn't hide my
recovery in the workplace. Butthere really is never, or was
never, a platform to share it.
So I would find myself in thesesituations, and I knew, in
theory, that there must be othersober people in the workplace,
and there are definitely peoplestruggling with substance use
disorder, but I had no way offinding them, because where am I
(05:47):
going to lead with that at awork meeting like you're not
going to kick it off withalthough I was terrified I would
one day like, Hi, I'm Mar andI'm an alcoholic. I was so
scared that first year of myrecovery that I was going to
slip and say that in a meetingand be horribly embarrassed. I
think it did happen once, but itmust not have been that
embarrassing, because I barelyremember it. So you know my work
experience, how they've informedthe creation of sober and has
(06:10):
been this reflection back of my19 years of recovery and
thinking about those spaces andtimes where I had to navigate
pretty tricky situations forsomeone who is trying to stay
sober. Someone did a post theother day on LinkedIn, and I was
reflecting on all of thosespaces that you have to navigate
within, like beer kegs in the,you know, the work kitchen,
(06:36):
because there was a party thenight before and it was left
over, and so they just rolled itinto the kitchen. Into the
kitchen, and then you're goingdown there to grab a sparkly
water and you have to walk pastthe keg, and it's like, I don't
want to see that now. I'mthinking about that, right? Or a
bottle of champagne being sentfor a job well done. And you're
like, Well, cool, that was awaste of money. I wish you would
have just sent me a checkearning President's Club and
(07:00):
having it be like a very boozebased event, and not not feeling
like a reward to someone who'sin recovery, that feels like a
big anxiety producing situationto navigate. So all of these
moments that I never you know,it's complicated to talk about
it, because I never wanted tocome across like victimhood. It
is my own responsibility to staysober in whatever space I
(07:23):
occupy, and also, there werelots of tricky situations that
could have been more inclusiveand could have made safer for
employees like me and for theemployee who's trying to find
their sobriety or their footing,who show up at a happy hour
that's hosted by their boss, andthe only option going around is
(07:45):
wine, and they just go, forgetit. I guess I'll try again
another day, right? So it'slike, how can we make these
small shifts so thoseexperiences of staying sober in
a workplace where, and I'll behonest, this isn't about, you
know, I'm in sales. I've alwaysbeen in sales, but before I
entered sales, I was anonprofit. And people will say
to me, like, is this justbecause it's like, high tech
(08:07):
sales, this is, like, this hugedrinking culture. I'm like,
Listen, this drinking culturesituation is in any space, in
academia, in attorney circles,in healthcare circles, in
nonprofit circles, like, it isjust everywhere. Statistics,
hospitality, so, yeah,hospitality, construction. Like,
yes, there are certainindustries that have higher
(08:29):
rates. But I don't want peopleto get tripped up of being like,
Oh, it's a Silicon Valleyproblem, or, Oh, it's a
construction problem. Like, no,this is just like the world at
large and definitely the US.
There's 46 million who aresuffering with substance use
disorder right now, and most ofthose individuals are in the
(08:49):
workplace. 70% of them are inthe workplace. So the numbers
are astounding, right? One in 10employees you can assume, have
substance use disorder. And sohow can we collectively
make workplace a more safe andinclusive space for those
employees who are sober andsober curious, so that they can
(09:10):
be their best employee selves,because it actually just
benefits everyone, like you're amore present and productive
employee, if you're someonewho's in recovery, and you feel
supported in your recovery, likeyou're going to be a pretty
committed employee, and you'regoing to produce really well,
DeAnn Knighton (09:26):
that actually leads me to think about your
model. What has happenedhistorically as it relates to
the issue of substance usedisorder? So often it's this
pendulum swing that is like,Okay, everyone for themselves,
or, Oh, we're going to shut thewhole thing down. Let's you
know, prohibition, right?
There's like two choices withinthe equation that are so often.
I think what we end up latchingon to that is, so what creates
(09:49):
the need for these more nuancedapproaches to this issue?
Because nobody wants that. Thatdoesn't make sense. It's never
going to work, right? Just say,okay, yeah, just don't have
booze at work or anywhere nearwork. That doesn't make sense.
How can we create spaces andunderstanding and awareness and
take that little bit of extratime just pay attention and
(10:10):
recognize some of these things.
And it doesn't have to meansomething bigger than that. It's
a great question.
Marin Nelson (10:18):
It's very thoughtful. And you're right.
This is not. We are not lookingto be the alcohol police. This
is not about removing allsubstances from the workplace at
all that does not serve anyone.
No one wants to be told what todo with their own choices when
it comes to alcohol or othersubstances. That is not the
goal. The goal is and the in themodel is an a recognition that
(10:41):
data shows that people are morelikely to get sober through
workplace intervention thanfamily and friends. That's one
data point. Data shows thatemployees in recovery save their
employees $8,700 a year. I'veseen higher numbers too, on
(11:02):
average, because they are moreproductive, they turn over at
lower rates, they are present,they take fewer days off. Their
medical spend is less so thereare a lot of great data points
for why we should be encouragingour sober employees to stay
sober, our struggling employeesto get help and have easier
(11:24):
pathways to getting help, andthe impact to the broader set of
employees that two and threepeople are impacted in their two
and three in their familieshaving substance use disorder.
So arguably, this is like nearlyever, and I think that number is
understated, but that's what thedata says. You know, nearly
everyone has a story, right? Andso we're in this movement where
(11:46):
we're told to bring our fullselves to work, and yet, we
haven't figured out how to talkabout something that's impacting
almost all of us. And so thesobering model is really around
it's two parts. One part is therecognition of how critical it
(12:07):
is to change culture to berecovery friendly. And so what
does that mean? How do yougather? How do you help
employees find each other? Like,what I was saying when I was
like, how was I going to findpeople like me to go to the
conference and, like, bandtogether to navigate the happy
hour where it feels likeeveryone's drinking and you feel
like a weird outsider, but like,You got to be there for your
(12:27):
work. You don't want to riskyour sobriety. You know it's
like, How much easier is thatwhen you could just, like, find
another sober friend to, like,walk around with, for example,
how much easier is it to go to acompany kickoff and have non
alcoholic champagne presented asan option for you to grab
without having to say, I'msober, I can't do the toast. Why
do you have a water bottle?
(12:48):
Martin, that's so weird. It'slike, just make it easy, right?
So like these very small changesthat are embedded within our
culture, where today wecelebrate with, we reward with
we gather with alcohol. How dowe make that inclusive of non
alcoholic options? So that's onepart culture change. How do we
talk about it? How do we helpeach other? How do we normalize
(13:11):
it? How do we destigmatizeaddiction? How do we recognize
this as a disease state, not amoral failing, right? So that's
the culture change. And then theother part of our solution is,
how do we provide help andnavigation at the time of need?
So for us, that means we provide24/7 365, care, navigation and
(13:31):
coaching for employees andfamilies, wherever they are in
the spectrum. So to your pointof like this black and white,
either or this is like we arehere to meet you with whatever
your goal is. And maybe yourgoal is that you want to drink
only three days a week, notseven days a week. Like,
awesome. We can help you withthat. Maybe your goal is that
you want to take a month off andyou're not really sure how to do
that. We can help you with that.
Like, maybe your goal is thatyou want to get your kiddo into
(13:54):
the best inpatient care that youcan find, and you don't know how
to pick a place. We can help youwith that. So there is a
spectrum of use, because, likeall diseases, there is a
spectrum right of severity. Andif we can have this conversation
in the workplace before peoplehave lost their jobs as a result
of untreated substance usedisorder, can we maybe change
(14:17):
this trend line, which iscontinuing to accelerate up and
instead reach people beforethey're in a clinical state of
crisis. And we think we can. Wethink that by having this
conversation openly, andnormalizing this conversation,
and making these pathways tocare easier, then we can make
these numbers change, the bigpicture numbers, right? Like we
(14:40):
have too many people sufferingin silence right now, we have to
do better.
DeAnn Knighton (14:46):
I'm curious, how are the conversations going in
spaces where people aren'tfamiliar with this concept?
Yeah,
Marin Nelson (14:52):
so it's going great. It's going fast. So
that's awesome, because it meansthe market feels finally ready
to. Have this conversation. Soyay for that, for something that
has been hidden in the basementforever, coming up, and I think
that it's informed by the COVIDcrisis. The COVID crisis was a
forcing function to talk aboutmental health in the workplace,
(15:14):
and substance use disorder is afast follow what we saw the
market do, and the market still,to some extent, is doing is
trying to use a one size fitsall mental health solution to
solve for substance substanceuse disorder and sober
curiosity. And our perspectiveis that, because this is one in
(15:34):
10 employees who are activelysick with untreated substance
use disorder, and of the 46million who have Sud only 6%
have sought treatment in thepast year. This is too big of a
problem and too big of a need tobe an afterthought of a mental
health first. Now that doesn'tmean that we don't get the
intersection. I am someone whohas anxiety disorder that I
(15:57):
treat and I have substance usedisorder that I treat, and they
first sure go hand in hand, andalso my ways of treating them
are different. And so I neededdifferent pathways for both. And
so we want to be anotherpathway, right? So if you can
get sober through therapy,amazing, but maybe you need
therapy, and also a local 12step meeting and also an
(16:20):
outpatient program to get youstarted, right? And so we need
those care navigation pathwaysto be broader, specific to
substance use disorder anddedicated to it. And that part,
as far as how is it beingreceived? Nearly every single HR
leader we have spoken with getsit. They're like, Yep, I don't,
(16:43):
you know. Now, I don't know ifanyone will full out say I don't
know what to do, but the truthis, like, we're expecting a lot
of our HR leaders, like theremost therapists are not even
trained in substance usedisorder as a specialty, right?
So this assumption that everyoneknows how to talk about if
they're in the mental healthfield is not true. That's
inaccurate. How do we expect ourHR teams to know what to do and
(17:04):
what to say if an employee comesin, especially if they're an HR
leader of a multi state, right?
Like if their employees arespread out across the US or all
over the globe, how in the worldare they supposed to know where
to point someone so we arereally trying to take that lift
off of HR shoulders. We have alot of compassion for what's
being asked of them, and we wantto be a partner in the effort to
(17:28):
help employees, right? So whereI would love to see more
research done. So this will bemy ask of anyone listening,
who's a researcher we know andNew York Times just came out
with another researchhighlighted a new research that
came out that connects untreatedsubstance use disorder with
earlier cancers, youngercancers. So there is direct
(17:51):
correlation between moderatedrinking, which is one drink or
less for women, two drinks orless a day, sorry, this is a day
for men to increase risk ofcolorectal cancer, which is
scary, especially when I don'tknow about you, but I definitely
know cases in my own communitywhere young people are getting
breast cancer and colorectalcancer, and now we know that
(18:15):
alcohol is a factor in this. Sothere is this. It feels like the
boogeyman of substance usedisorder that lurks within
health results but is not yetreally fully understood
collectively. If that makessense, like we have the data
that says it's connected tountreated or unmanaged,
(18:38):
mismanaged diabetes andhypertension and heart disease
and cancers and all right, allthese disease states. But if you
look at the claims data, you'renot going to see substance use
disorder. You're going to seeblood pressure or right? So we
just have work to do from how wemake decisions of what benefits
(18:58):
we purchase at companies isoften based on claims analysis,
and this is a tricky one, and soI think it means that it's left
not dealt with when it justneeds to be dealt with
DeAnn Knighton (19:12):
Ingrid, I'd love to hear from you on this. It's
kind of a big question that wewon't fully answer, but you
know, as someone who hasnavigated the complexities of
private care public care andapproaches to health care and
solutions for problems that arecomplex, like this one. Where do
you anticipate that we're goingto see improvements in the way
(19:33):
that is headed, and where do youthink we'll continue to see
obstacles? That's
Ingrid Lindberg (19:37):
a massive question. You know that DeAnn,
it's not fair, so I'm going tobreak it into three parts,
right? So there's the existingsilos, there's what we're hoping
to solve with sober and thenthere's the obstacles. Can we
flip it that way? And we'll dothat. So the existing silos,
right? With the existing silos,I actually think there are
three, because we have theprivate sector, meaning all of
(19:59):
the. Pay for treatment worldsthat exist, we have the private
sector with a sub of EmployeeBenefits, right? And then we
have public sector. So it'sactually three, because I split
that employee benefits out,because they don't actually
always talk to the privatesector offerings, right? So
you've got those three sets ofsolutions right now that are all
completely siloed and don'treally spend much time together
(20:23):
figuring out how to help anyonenavigate that. And if you start
thinking about the complexitythat sits within each of those
right to your point, maybethere's peer coaching, maybe
there's inpatient, maybe there'soutpatient, there's, I mean,
there's so many pieces that falloff of each of those three
silos. What we're trying tosolve with sobering is actually
(20:43):
acting as the connector foremployees to all of those
options and all of thoseopportunities. If you think
about you know, we, we arecurrently building relationships
with recovery communityorganizations across the
country, right? We're matchingour peer recovery coaches to
those rcos, because we seeourselves as a feeder for people
who need help, who may not knowthat that's an option for them.
(21:06):
We see our coaches as person whocan help connect to what is the
best solution for you based onwhat your needs are and what
your wants are. So those silos,those three sets of silos, I
don't anticipate those comingany closer organically, unless
it's mandated at the federallevel. Right until then, we have
(21:29):
to create that wrapper aroundthem so that people can actually
find the care and the help thatthey need for themselves or for
another. And right now, as youknow, it is absolutely
impossible to do that right? Youcan't necessarily find
information that is up to date.
I was spending time, and havebeen spending an enormous amount
of time on all sorts ofdifferent websites that are
current aggregators. Date, youknow, update, last update was
(21:53):
2021, 2022, you start makingphone calls. It's not only that
they're not available, or thereisn't a bed available, or the
meeting room is no longercorrect. It's at the
organization no longer exists.
So if we can figure out a placeto solve that for people, I feel
like that's one of the biggestopportunities that sits here is,
(22:14):
can we just take the lift ofthat navigation off of human
resources, off of you as anemployee, because especially if
you sit in I'm a Gen Xer, I sitin this beautiful sandwich
generation, where we are takingcare of our parents, the
boomers, who have some of thehighest substance use disorder
rates of any generation we'veseen, and we're taking care of
(22:35):
our kids, and we all know whatit looks like today, right? So
it's that up, down, over mycolleagues, my employees,
there's so much of a lift thatcan be brought simply by
providing navigation and takingthat work off of your shoulders
as a human. Last piece is thatobstacle, right? The obstacles,
I think what's reallyinteresting, and I'm brand new
(22:56):
to this space, right? I'veworked in healthcare forever,
recovery, substance usedisorder. All of these terms
were never discussed in any ofthe boardrooms that I've sat in
for the last 20 years. This wasalways something that was a sub
bullet to behavioral health, notmental health, behavioral
health, right? So using theterminology that is still used
(23:17):
to this day in a lot of thesevery large healthcare
organizations, I think that theobstacles that we're going to
see are a this does need to beheld to a space where it can
have its own set of solutions.
It cannot always be tucked undermental health. So we're going to
have to help convince themarketplace that this is really
important where it sits andbecause it sits on its own. And
(23:40):
the argument that I would giveis we don't just have cancer
care, we have breast cancercare, we have colon cancer care,
we have bone cancer care, right?
And those are very specificspecialties that help people
navigate very complexsituations. I would say
substance use disorder sitsthere, but that's an obstacle.
To try to teach people thatthat's how we should actually be
(24:00):
looking at this right? Let'sgive it the space that it needs,
and then secondarily, it'sinteresting to me, because when
we first started talking to someorganizations, they were pretty
hesitant to talk to us, andthere was a perception that we
were going to take. And one ofthe obstacles we've been facing
that I think is fascinating, butwe've really been able to help
organizations navigate this is,if we do our job, right, we're
(24:23):
bringing people to you that needhelp. We're not here providing
the actual solution. We're justconnecting people in your
community to you when theycouldn't find you on their own
because they didn't have time,they didn't have capacity, they
didn't have the wherewithal. So,right? That's that's a lot in
that question of what'shappening between the public and
the private sector, but I thinkthat's what's going to happen. I
(24:47):
think that's what we're going tosee. What do you think, DeAnn,
you're deep in this? Couldn't
DeAnn Knighton (24:50):
agree more with some of the shifts that we're
seeing around the alignment ofthe mental health, behavioral
health umbrellas, and it'sfascinating. Right? Because I
have to tell you, I have kind oftwo perspectives on it. My work
is CO occurring disordertreatment, so people who are
dealing with more than oneissue, right? So within that,
there's this piece of me thatsays, well, care has to be
(25:12):
integrated. It has to be becauseyou're one human being, so your
care plan has to be integratedto you. But then when you think
of it in context of like, what'sreality and how we operate with
the current situation, that wehave. Everything that you're
saying resonates with me aswell. You know, it can be easy
for me to feel like, why isthere so much stigma on
(25:33):
substance use that doesn't needto be there? Is it because we
have isolated it? But there'salso that reality, that it is
different and nuanced andcomplicated. It's an interesting
thing to reflect on. And Marin,I don't know if you have
anything you wanted to add hereon this particular topic before
we move on,
Marin Nelson (25:52):
just that. My hope is that we the collective, we
can bring a growth mindset andan openness to how we're going
to collectively solve thisproblem. Because, to Ingrid's
point, our goal is to be aconnector, so that people are
(26:13):
not left alone with Google totry to figure it out, because
that's what's happening, right?
And so that awareness of like,what is missing was my
experience in CO founding soberforce and being president to
sober force at Salesforce, andI, because I was a face of it,
and a lot of ways would getphone calls from employees who
were struggling and looking forhelp. And so they'd call me,
(26:34):
they weren't going to call HR,and if they called our EAP, they
they were not happy with thatexperience, because the EAP was
like, here are some randomtreatment centers that are
covered by your insurance.
Here's your insurance phonenumber. Go call and attain Grace
point. They'd go call, and asmost people know, a lot of
times, that data is out of dateeven with your insurance
(26:56):
company, the provider directoryis not always current. And so
they'd call and there wouldn'tbe availability, or they
wouldn't get an answer, or theywouldn't take their teenager,
and they're like, What the heck,I just used the resource I was
supposed to use, and now I feeleven more alone and more
overwhelmed. And so then theycall me, what do I do? Where do
I send my kid? And I'm like, Idon't I don't know. Like, I
(27:18):
didn't even go to treatmentmyself. My journey was 12 step,
so I felt terrible that Icouldn't be more effectively
helpful for these employees whowere calling me asking for help,
who were very vulnerable anddidn't feel like they knew where
else to turn. And that was whatled to lots of discussions with
(27:39):
Ingrid, and led to, thencreating sobering together,
which was like, how is that thebest we can do right now? Like,
and everyone has their, I think,their own lived experience and
so so personal, right? A lot ofpeople who work in recovery are
also in recovery themselves. Andso I think we can, we can be and
(28:04):
maybe it's true for any otherillness too, like, well, I did
chemo and I did this, andtherefore that's the solution.
And so I think people thinktheir own journey is can be the
solution for everyone. And so Ithink what my hope is that we
can collectively recognize thateveryone's sobriety journey is
personal and can look differentfrom each other, and they can
(28:29):
all be right? There is not onepath, right? So while 12 step
works for me, and it's stillsomething I'm a part of, I am
not one of those people who saysit's the only way, and if you
don't do it, you're never goingto stay sober, because I think
that's really unfair, right? Sohow instead, can we say, hey,
how do we collaborate and shareour best practices together and
(28:52):
recognize that there are 46million people out there to help
and then all of the familymembers who have been impacted,
and how can we do a better jobconnecting with each other to
best serve these individuals whoneed help. That's what my hope
is. I was
DeAnn Knighton (29:06):
just thinking about those that I've talked to
with chronic pain, and how oftenwhen they maybe discuss, hey, I
have this going on for me. Thecommon complaint you hear is
like everybody is giving themtheir solution. Oh, I had neck
thing, here's what I did, but itdoesn't always feel supportive
to that person receiving it. Itjust, it just gets more and more
(29:27):
annoying, probably the more ithappens. So I don't know, I
think of that relating here tosome degree, right? There is
something beautiful about peoplewho understand what you're going
through. But there also has tobe that feeling of like, this is
also about you, not about thatperson's experience, whatever
that was. DeAnn,
Marin Nelson (29:44):
I don't know if I share this with you the last
time we spoke, but you know, I Ithink my passion for advocacy of
everyone having their own rightto their own path comes from my
own experience when I was. 24and in New York City and going
to a treatment facility for anassessment, and the licensed
(30:07):
alcohol drug counselor was doingtheir job. I don't fault them.
This is how they were trained,right? And they did my
assessment. They said, wow,yeah, you are drinking a
dangerous amount, like youshould probably go to inpatient.
And I was like, yeah, no, I'mnot going to do that. And
they're like, Okay, well, thenyou've at a minimum, need to go
to outpatient. I said, Yeah, I'mnot going to do that. Like, I
(30:29):
don't actually feel like that'swhat I need. I want to stop
drinking. I want help. I know Ineed help. I know I can't do
this anymore. It's not safe, butI love my job. I'm not
interested in leaving my job. Idon't feel like I need
outpatient. And I will neverforget this woman like it almost
makes me teary for my like, 24year old self, who is so scared
and so vulnerable in that momentasking for help and being told
(30:51):
by a professional well, thenyou're probably going to drink
again. You're probably not goingto stay sober if you're not
willing to do this. And I was soflipping mad, and I was like,
watch me stay sober, and I havestayed sober for 19 years since
that spite, okay, spite. I willnever drink again. No, luckily,
(31:12):
have other reasons now, butright that I marched myself to a
meeting in New York City, and Icried in the meeting, and I
shared what had just happened,and I was like, please talk to
me after the meeting if you havestayed sober through me, like
through AA, because I just gottold that I'm doomed, and I
refuse to believe that that'strue. But I had an example of a
(31:36):
dad who got sober through the 12step rooms, and uncles who got
sober through the 12 step rooms,and my dad didn't go to
treatment center, so I knew itwas possible, but what if I
hadn't had that example? Sothat's what fires me up, as I'm
like, How dare you tell someone,and I get that person who's
probably trying to just help,and based on data, maybe I was
(31:56):
more, I don't know, but like,treatment's not a solve all,
catch all, either, right, mostpeople go to treatment go back
seven times like we don't have asilver bullet for substance use
disorder. So can we stop tryingto prescribe to everyone what
they have to do, and instead,can we listen and say, what are
you willing to do? What do youwant to do? What works for your
(32:17):
life, and then find a pathwayfor them. Because there are lots
of different options out there,but that's the work that our
coaches are trained in, is howto listen and then leverage the
resources in that person'scommunity to help get them to
the thing that they're willingand wanting to do.
DeAnn Knighton (32:35):
Well, you know, I'd love to pivot this a little
bit, because I think it reallyplays into this. I'd like to
have you both comment on this.
But you know, this podcast, mybrother is kind of the
technology side of thisequation, and he comes from that
viewpoint, and I come from sortof the lived experience side. He
has a lot of the human side too.
So I'm not going to say hedoesn't also have that. But
(32:56):
around here, we kind of havefelt like there's room for all
things in the solution, and eventhe podcast slogan is a little
bit of technology and science,but mostly storytelling and
heart. And so it's this ideathat all of those things can
live together. They're notmutually exclusive. It's all
hands on deck related to solvingproblems. But that said, I have
encountered myself that when I'mtalking to individuals, they can
(33:19):
often feel kind of conflictedabout the role of technology
solutions in this biggerproblem, particularly those
maybe in the clinical side thatare so believe so much in in the
power of that human humanconnection, which is powerful
and is incredibly important. Butit can almost be this dismissal
that there are not things, froma technology standpoint, that
(33:39):
can also help to support andbuild upon what happens through
that human connection. And sowhen I think of what you've
described as your project, I seethat you know that aggregate,
aggregator piece that you weretalking about that's just an
accelerator to help put togetherthat bigger piece of the human
connection. So it kind of soundslike an outdated question or
(34:00):
maybe past, but I don't believewe are. Can you speak to your
perspective on the role oftechnology and promoting human
connection, healing and care?
Marin Nelson (34:09):
I'll start with the first part, and then I'm
going to have Ingrid speak tothe the how sobering is doing
it, but just for the framing oflived experience, of technology
being the point of connectionbetween humans. We use Slack at
Salesforce, for the sober forcegroup, to communicate with each
other. That is technology thatscaled across the globe that all
(34:33):
75,000 employees had access to,and we chose to use that channel
in a public way so that everyonecould see the conversation we
were having, because we knew,due to stigma, there would be at
least 10x if not 20x watchingfrom the sidelines, not joining
the group as a member. So not anemail list you'd have to sign up
(34:54):
for to get and then beassociated to, but a public
chat. Fact that everyone couldwatch and gain from and that
turned out to be true. Peoplewould then, months into it, say,
I've been watching from thesidelines. I'm really proud to
say I've 60 days sober. It'sbecause of this group that I had
(35:16):
the courage to stop drinking. Ifwe would have made that group
private, or only meet in person,or only have write a phone call,
we would have left out all ofthose individuals who, because
of this technology, couldbenefit from the conversation
that we were having at the endof the day. It was still human
(35:37):
to human connection, but thetechnology was a way to get
everyone connected, right? Itwas a way to get everyone the
information that they needed. SoI guess I'll just leave it
there. I just wanted to frame uplike that's a great example, I
think, of how you can usetechnology in a way that gave us
(35:57):
much greater results. We had 500employees actively join as
members within five months time.
That would not have happened ifwe would have done this in an
analog way.
Ingrid Lindberg (36:08):
So I think there's two pieces to this.
DeAnn number one is it's alwaysabout tech equal scale, right?
Tech allows us to scale humans.
Right? Humans have limitedability to scale. Tech has
endless ability to scale. Sowhere can we take pieces that
can make it easier for ourpeople to be able to reach more
(36:28):
people more rapidly? I thinkthat's always a great solution,
right? The proverbial tech andtouch, when we start getting
into what we're seeing somepeople do with AI and rushing to
adopt still a pretty strongbelief structure that we've
gotta establish some hardcoreguard rails and policies. We
have to make sure that it alignswith our objectives and our
(36:53):
ethical standards. And we knowthat when people are in an
emergent moment, right? We knowthat they actually want to get
to a human. We don't have thatdata in this space, because this
space hasn't existed beforesobering started, right? So
taking all of our years ofexperience on what has happened
(37:14):
within healthcare with everyother disease state, when you're
in an emergency situation, youneed a human. And I think this
will just be, you know, we'llsee if I'm making it the right
bet here. This is the brain,right? My belief structure is
that we're going to see a lot ofemergent situations. I need help
now. So if we can figure out howto rapidly assist our touch, our
(37:38):
humans, our coaches, to be ableto serve our clients as fast as
we can in the moments where theyneed us. That's the perfect
marriage of, how can we use techto actually allow that human to
human connection at scale?
Because if we don't use tech toenable the scale, then we just
(38:00):
won't be able to solve forenough people fast enough. So
that's how we're thinking aboutit, right? Tech and touch tech
for scale. Ai with guardrails.
That's
DeAnn Knighton (38:09):
great. Well, thank you. This has been
amazing. I'm so excited to seeand be on the sidelines watching
what y'all are doing, and Iappreciate you being here to
chat with us today, and maybewe'll do this again down the
line, when some things haveevolved even more. Who knows
anything else from the two ofyou that you'd like to say
before we get out of here today?
Marin Nelson (38:31):
Just so we would love to talk to you. So if you
are an individual who is inrecovery, or a sober ally or a
leader in a company where you'relike, Yeah, we need to be having
this conversation. We'd love tochat. We'd love to help. The
data shows that there's a needfor a tremendous amount of
education on how to do this inthe workplace, and that's
(38:52):
exactly what we're here for. Soit's okay to reach out and say,
I have no idea how, but I knowwe need to, let's talk. We
welcome those those messages, soplease do reach out to us. You
can find us on LinkedIn, andwe'll make sure DeAnn has our
link so you can contact us, sothat we can come in and and help
(39:15):
you know, our hope is that everycompany becomes a recovery,
friendly workplace, and thatthat is just the norm and not an
outlier experience. So we hopeto be in talks with anyone who's
listening, who's interested.
Ingrid Lindberg (39:29):
You know, I think the only thing that I
would add to this, just inwrapping DeAnn, is I do a shout
out to all of my peers out therein corporate America. This is
not something that those who arein the recovery community needs
to be doing on their own. It'sactually up to us as allies to
create this space and to be ableto make these changes. So come
(39:49):
and join right this is about usactually being aware and making
changes within the organizationsthat we lead to ensure that work
is safe for all.
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