September 19, 2023 • 38 mins
On this week's episode of our Sober Positive Workplace Series, DeAnn speaks with Karolina Rzadkowolska, author of "Euphoric: Ditch Alcohol and Gain a Happier, More Confident You". Karolina is a powerhouse in the alcohol-free movement. She has helped countless gray-area drinkers reconsider their relationship with alcohol. The episode discusses alcohol culture and its impact on the workplace, generational considerations for how we think about alcohol and alcohol-related marketing, and the shifting expectations of the next generation who are the future leaders of our workforce.
Realities and disconnects of alcohol culture:
- Alcohol became a tool for Karolina to get out of her shell and meet new people, and she had no boundaries around it in college.
- Drinking alcohol makes you feel like an adult. It gives you independence, a sense of rebelliousness, glamour, or sophistication.
- Drinking during the week is a socially acceptable means of doing it without having to explain it to anyone.
- 60% of people overdrink in the United States, meaning that a woman has more than one drink, is now considered heavy risky drinking, according to the medical establishment, and it gets even lower in Canada, where the drinking limits have gone lower and lower.
- Most people over 52% wish they didn't drink at all, and most people recognize that they don't like it and wish they were drinking less.
Karolina shares her workplace experience:
- She was one of the first people in her known sphere in her workplace to go alcohol-free, and she chose to adopt that story. People started coming out of the woodwork and saying that alcohol-free living is better for most people.
- One thing about a workplace scenario is that there's this assumption that what everyone wants to do and is fun for them is drinking.
- Holistic health is becoming more important to young people, and there is more of a lens on the importance of taking care of yourself.
- Why more and more CEOs are drinking less?
Karolina shares thoughts on how we can work to bridge non-drinkers:
- The odd division that exists in the world of non-drinkers and the spectrum of beliefs around substances.
- Being willing to evolve and change some of the language and the methods that are used to reevaluate is super helpful, but it doesn't go to say that the other methods don't work.
https://euphoricaf.com
https://www.instagram.com/euphoric.af/?hl=en
If you have questions or comments or would like to be a guest on the Recovery Discovery Podcast, send an email to:
deann@showupandstay.org
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Music and Audio Production by Katie Hare.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
DeAnn Knighton (00:06):
Oh hello. This is the sober positive workplace
series brought to you by show upand stay. I'm your host Deann
Karolina Rzadkowalska (00:15):
It was kind of fancier, right? They had
Knighton.
servers who came around withwine and beer and stuff like
that, but it was so normalizedand even one of the biggest
fundraisers that that place didit was a big wine classic every
single year. So I'll call it wasreally kind of entrenched not in
(00:35):
the sense of let's binge drinkand have all these college kids
you know, have unhealthyrelationships but really poison
that sense of like, oh, this iswhat adulthood looks like. This
is what glamour looks like
DeAnn Knighton (00:44):
Karolina Rzadlowalska is a powerful voice
in the alcohol free movement. Inher book Euphoric, she provides
tools to support growth mindedindividuals that want to take a
break from alcohol. She's beenfeatured in 50 Plus articles on
media platforms, including RealSimple Huffington Post, Elite
(01:07):
Daily, the Sunday Post, KatieCouric, Pop Sugar, and has
appeared on something like 200podcasts. Yes, this is
definitely not a surprise whenyou hear how eloquently she
conveys her message today. Thisdiscussion with Karolina and I
is focused on individuals andtheir relationships with
(01:27):
alcohol, and even morespecifically looking through the
lens of addressing an alcoholrelationship as a preventative
measure. This is with the hopesof avoiding future and more
potentially devastating results.
I feel a responsibility to notethat depending on the severity
of alcohol addiction, alcoholwithdrawal can be very dangerous
(01:48):
and can cause death for some,not everything that is talked
about here on the show todayapplies to every person or to
every story. It does represent agrowing movement that I believe
has the ability to support theneeds of an important
constituency, and one with thepotential for a positive trickle
(02:10):
down effect that could impactanyone evaluating their
relationship with alcohol.
Karolina has strong and validconcerns around the potential
dangers of alcohol culture. Shespeaks openly about the risks of
alcohol, not only for those withaddiction, but more broadly, no
(02:31):
matter where you stand on thisissue, we are looking to bring
awareness to different ways thatthe next generation may be
thinking about alcohol. So wecan start now to have our
workplaces reflect thatideology. This is a chance to
reflect on the timing andinfluence that the alcohol free
movement might be able to haveon some of our broader social
(02:53):
issues. And the reality of thenegative influence of some of
our long held beliefs thatfrankly, just don't make sense
anymore. particularly as itrelates to our attitudes towards
the positioning of alcohol inour social spaces. I think
there's something here foreveryone. Also, I tell a really
(03:14):
embarrassing story about mytwisted days at Weight Watchers
and how I manipulated the pointsystem to make sure I left ample
space for alcohol consumption.
Lucky for all of us, I am prettyshameless at this stage in my
public disclosures. Withoutfurther ado, please enjoy this
conversation.
I feel like the timing for us toconnect is kind of meant to be
(03:37):
because I know you have so muchthat you can offer the
conversations that we've beenhaving around normalizing
alcohol free choices in theworkplace. Although this is only
I know, a small piece of theissue. Do you feel like it's an
important one in particular,because of the shifts that we
are seeing right now and thewhole culture in the last few
years, before we get into any ofthat I want to know you a little
(04:00):
bit better, I want to helppeople get to know you a little
bit better. So maybe we startwith you telling us a little bit
from your own experience, maybesome of the major ways that your
personal perspective of alcoholhas changed over the last
several years and what it wasthere.
Karolina Rzadkowalska (04:16):
I obviously grew up drinking as
most of us do. And you know,something that I love to do as
an alcohol free coach andempowerment expert is actually
look into behind the scenes ofwhat kind of societal
conditioning we all receive toget there. Instead of taking it
as comes some kind of personalmoral dilemma or feeling of my
own. You know, I grew up in asociety I have to recognize that
(04:38):
really pushed me to drink atmost occasions, you know, and so
I grew up obviously in highschool, college is when I
started dabbling with alcoholand in college, I just turned
into like this party egoidentity. I was really shy and
introverted growing up and soalcohol at that point became
this tool for me to really getout of my shell and meet new
people and you know, I had justno boundaries around it. I'll
(05:00):
pop that point. But the thingis, is that like what everyone
was doing, right, that's likewhat college look like. And you
know, there wasn't it was reallythis like rite of passage, the
way I look at kind of the, thearchitecture of our cultural
institutions, when it comes toalcohol is we actually have
these really defining momentswhere it's like, Okay, you go
from being a non drinker in yourearly adolescence to being a
(05:21):
drinker. And that makes you havestatus in this society, it makes
you feel like an adult, it givesyou independence, maybe it gives
you a sense of rebellious Ness,maybe it gives you a sense of
glamour, sophistication. Sowhatever that was, and I just
see myself following on thattrajectory. And so again, no
healthy boundaries arounddrinking in college. But as I
started to grow up, I started tokind of put on that next persona
(05:42):
of drinking that was presentedto me, and it was this
sophisticated adult that drankwine, and you know, also had a
pretty healthy and put togetherlifestyle. And so that's what I
tried to conform to, I startedto adopt a really healthy and
mindful lifestyle. So basically,Monday through Thursday, I lived
a quite healthy lifestyle, Iwould drink green juices, I
would go to yoga class, I wouldmeditate. And on the weekend, I
(06:03):
would go out with friends, maybeit was a sushi dinner, maybe it
was a game night, I would havesome wine at home with Netflix,
whatever it was, alcohol wasalways involved. But it was also
basically following the ruleslike this is what every single
adult does. This is what all mycolleagues at work do. We drink
on the weekend, we let loose orwe go visit the new winery or
the new brewery. And so eventhough it's trying to make
(06:24):
alcohol the smaller part of mylife, it didn't matter what
happened. Every Monday morning,I woke up feeling shell shocked.
I woke up feeling emotionallylow, exhausted, and super
groggy. And I had been gettingthis signs and basically this
like voice that was telling meyou were made for so much more
than this. You deserve so muchbetter than this for years. So
(06:44):
the cycle was playing out oflike live healthy during the
week drink over the weekend foryears and years and years. And I
was always feeling thisintuitive hunch, like, Can we
take a break? Can we just notdrink. And it was always the
social calendar that stopped meit was looking out, oh, well,
this Friday, you have thatwedding or this Saturday, you
have that dinner party, orthere's that work event or
something. And I always felt solocked into this identity of
(07:08):
well, if you're an adult, youhave to drink. And so I didn't
listen to that voice for yearsuntil I finally did. And it was
actually dry January thatfinally kind of gave me
permission to take a break fromalcohol, it was this like
socially acceptable means ofdoing it without having to
explain it to anyone, or tellingyou when I had a problem or
anything like that. And I fellin love. You know, like at first
(07:30):
I had to deal with cravings andhow to manage my time on a
Friday night. But I reallystarted to fall in love with how
deep my sleep was and howpeaceful I felt every morning
and how I started appreciatingnature and just having like,
real belly laughs again, justreally falling in love with joy
I felt for my life. And I wasn'tyet that convinced that I was
(07:50):
allowed to remain a non drinker.
Again, it's like so much of thiscultural rules that I'm trying
to follow. And so in February, Idrank a few times again, because
I again, I thought that that'swhat it meant to be a normal
adult. But the contrast was justtoo much for me, it was like
even a drink or two wouldcompletely ruin my sleep make me
feel not as happy as I wasfeeling. And I even noticed an
hour or so after having a drink,my mood would go crashing, I
(08:13):
would feel impatient andfrustrated. And for me, drinking
was always like a way to feelhappier, more excited or have
some kind of thing to lookforward to. And I was like this
isn't fun. And so I decided totake another break at the end of
February. And I've basicallybeen alcohol free ever since
five and a half years later, andreally redefining what it means
(08:33):
to be a non drinker. So I'd loveto talk about alcohol and
changing your relationship withit. But it's really also what
happens after alcohol that I'mso passionate about. Because I
got to the core of why was Idrinking, I was living this TGIF
lifestyle. I couldn't wait forthe weekend, without realizing
that I was probably unfulfilledwith how my week was going. And
(08:53):
so instead of just, you knowwaiting for the weekend, I
designed my life in such a waywhere I get fulfillment every
day. And I went after some ofthe biggest trends of my heart,
like becoming an entrepreneur,writing a book traveling around
the world more often. And I justfeel like I'm also making an
impact with my life. And thoseare the core things that have
really given me so much moremeaning and purpose that a 20
(09:14):
minute buzz just can't compareto. So I love these
conversations about normalizingan alcohol free lifestyle for
any reason. And I think it's soimportant to look at like the
cultural institutions around usto recognize how little
permission we give people tolive an alternate lifestyle.
DeAnn Knighton (09:31):
There's something fascinating about the
idea of moderation to me too.
There's also this feeling thatfor some reason, if I can't
moderate there's something wrongwith me, instead of like this
realization that there might besomething much bigger at play
than my own willpower. I alwaysbelieved it was my own failing.
One of the things that youmentioned in your book that I
think is really powerful was thestatistic that 60% of those who
(09:53):
use alcohol misuse alcohol.
We've had all of these changingideas is around what is
appropriate alcohol consumption,what is not, the reality is a
good portion of us whether ornot we have an issue with
alcohol misuse is common. And Iliked the way that you'd framed
up the different type ofrelationships people might have
(10:15):
with alcohol, what that spectrumcan look like.
Karolina Rzadkowalska (10:18):
I love this, because I think what kept
me so stuck for so long wasthinking about it in such a
black and white terms. And Ithink that's what traditionally
society does is you're either inthe bucket of normal drinkers
who moderate and can beresponsible with their alcohol,
or the bucket of people who areOoh, you drink too much in your
life, you have to quit that now.
And that's on you. And the truthis, when we look at consumption
(10:39):
levels and statistics is therearen't buckets, there are no two
buckets like that it is thishuge spectrum. And most people
do find themselves in the middleof that spectrum, and that kind
of Messier, gray area. And so60% of people over drink in the
United States, meaning that awoman has more than one drink,
she is now considered heavy,risky drinking according to the
medical establishment, and itgets even lower. Like in Canada,
(11:01):
the drinking limits have gonelower and lower, because there's
just no safe amount of alcohol.
And when you look aroundSociety, who is always stopping
at that one drink, you know,like, when you go to a dinner
party, it's not like, thesommelier stops pouring the
bottle after the first drink.
It's not like, you go to abarbecue, and everyone has a
ticket for just the one drink,right? Like, that's just not how
(11:22):
we observe drinking behaviorwhatsoever. And most people find
themselves drinking more ofteneither from the pandemic, either
socially the weekend, likeletting off the steam, or even
just making it a regular habitat home. And so what's so
interesting too, is that they'vealso found that most people over
52% actually wish that theydrink less or not at all. So
it's not just that we're overdrinking. And that's very
(11:44):
normalized, people arerecognizing it, and they don't
like it, and they wish that theywere drinking less. So again,
like these old fashioned blackand white kind of buckets just
don't really hold any ground.
And there is this unsafe, andalmost unhealthy relationship
that society has with alcohol.
And so any form of allowingpeople more space and intuition
and permission to reevaluatethat is so healthy, and
(12:07):
recognizing to how much are wecontributing to this push. And
this expectation to drink in ourcultural institutions is also
super important to recognize aswell. And you know, I see it all
the time, I think that when youare health minded, when you are
conscious, when you're reallyinvestigating a life of fuller
awareness, and more intuition,and more healthy habits, it's
(12:27):
kind of impossible to makealcohol work in that scenario,
you know, like, your intuitionsgonna feel it, even after just
one drink, you're gonna feeldifferent the next day than if
you didn't have that drink atall. So I really just see so
many more people becoming moreintuitive, like really listening
to their body really listeningto their mind really listening
to their soul, about what'sworking for them, instead of
(12:48):
trying to plug themselves intosome kind of hole or some kind
of box, they're really justasking themselves, does this
work for me? And does this alignwith the kind of lifestyle I
want to have? And I think thoseare just such intuitive
questions to ask versus Do Ihave a problem, it didn't have
to take me seven years ofrepeating that cycle over and
over and over again, of alreadyknowing I didn't like it before,
(13:09):
I was able to make a change ofreally actually learning how to
reevaluate alcohol in a muchhealthier way earlier on. And I
think that's what my work reallydoes is that there's no divisive
us versus them of like the grayarea drinker versus like the
heavier drinker. We're talkingabout approaching the problem at
earlier stages. And we're goingto use different language and
different solutions.
DeAnn Knighton (13:29):
You know, I'm going to share this with you. I
haven't actually talked aboutthis before, I grew up in weight
watcher culture, and I alwayshad some struggle with food,
right. So I joined WeightWatchers a couple of different
times in my early 20s. And theinteresting thing about the
program was, you know, it wasall point spaced, and you had a
certain amount of points thatyou could use every single day
(13:49):
to meet whatever you wereallowed to eat dinner was this
game that we all we're playingaround, okay, well, so it's two
points for a shot of vodka. So,depending on how much I'm going
to drink tonight, then I onlyhave this much reserved for
food. This seemed like a normalpractice to me when I was doing
it. And I even rememberterrifically, at one point in
(14:11):
time, I threw up after drinking,and I thought, Oh, does that
mean I have more points than Ican eat today? Just trying to
illustrate with my ownembarrassing reality, how the
mind can just get wrapped aroundthese really strange ways of
trying to make something workthat maybe just doesn't work.
(14:40):
What are the roadblocks here? Imean, I hear you speak and I'm
like the whole this just seemslike a no brainer, right? But it
isn't. It's tricky. It's reallytricky. We'll talk in a minute
about some of the ways it'stricky, even within the alcohol
free community, but what do youfeel like gets in our way? What
makes this a bigger thing? Oh,Polycom than it should be,
Karolina Rzadkowalska (15:01):
I honestly think it's the social
aspect. And even though somepeople have very private habits
at home, I'm not saying thatthat isn't a hard thing to
overcome and to make changesaround at the core of it,
there's this existential dilemmaof who am I if I don't belong,
like this with these people. Andit's not just in your core
friend group. And if I were togo to a conference, somehow, in
(15:22):
our society drinkers areelevated, right? They have
elevated status in the sensethat they seem more glamorous or
more sophisticated, or whateverlies have been baked on the
alcohol through marketing, andso forth. You know, there's a
reason why we have the JamesBond Shaken, not stirred thing
like that marks something abouthim. There's a reason why like
Olivia Pope went to alcoholevery night after her busy day.
(15:44):
And there was something thatthese directors were trying to
impart to us about theircharacters about how complex and
deep and sophisticated andglamorous they were, that's been
embedded as a message into oursubconscious for so long. And
the opposite is also true. We'vebeen embedding into our
subconscious that a non drinkeris either a a problem, or be on
the other side of the spectrum,boring, pious or religious,
(16:06):
right? And so it's like, how doyou exist as there's all these
things to change, right? Likeyou, we want to change how we
perceive alcohol, we want tomake sure we clear any sort of
identification with any sort ofbenefit, pleasure or comfort
that's coming from alcohol,because 99 times out of 100.
It's not coming from alcohol.
It's like this story that we'remaking up in our head. And so
that can be a really deepprocess of changing our
(16:28):
subconscious around what webelieve with alcohol. I call
that the mindset process. I'veshared my book. But I think at
the core of it, the harderthing, is that social aspect of
who am I if I don't drink? Andwhat will these people think? Or
how do I approach it in thisscenario? Or how do I bond with
my partner, if that's what we'veshared for so long. And there is
this belonging and acceptancethat we get from partaking in
(16:52):
this the way that other peopledo. And so what's so cool is
that we're seeing alternatives.
Now we're seeing a bunch ofpeople who are shunning this way
of bonding and creating theirown spaces. We see alcohol free
drinks, really popping up sothat every space can be
inclusive is the hopefully thegoal whether people are drinking
or not, we're both sharing thebonding, we're sharing the
(17:13):
ritual together. And so there'sso many different ways around
that. But I think it's going tobe a just a huge shift in how we
see alcohol, and how we seebonding and belonging in our
society, it really has to comefrom a point of pride and a
point of I love this lifestyleto remain sustainable as well.
I'm sure there's so much morethat comes up. As we think about
(17:34):
this. I think we're all makingour mark on the world by
shifting that conversation. Likeeven one person showing up to a
networking event and notdrinking is giving other people
permission that that isacceptable that that's okay. I
think we're all creating theseripple effects everywhere we go
by standing for the alcohol freelifestyle.
DeAnn Knighton (17:52):
From my own experience, I went into
treatment, and the first yearand a half of being sober was
very difficult. I was whiteknuckling every step of the way.
It actually wasn't until Istarted to do what you're
talking about, which was changethe way I think about it, listen
to people talk about it in a waythat didn't feel so yucky and
(18:12):
shameful. Then everythingshifted.
Unknown (18:17):
What I love about the idea of a break from alcohol is
the brain is going to scream atyou. Whenever you say you're
doing something for forever.
It's like what we're getting outof our comfort zone and never
getting this treat ever again.
You are crazy.
DeAnn Knighton (18:30):
the rebel comes roaring out!
Karolina Rzadkowalska (18:32):
And that's the thing is that we have
to recognize, too, that if youare a quote unquote, normal
drinker, and I'm using airquotes, you as a normal drinker
started drinking when you're 18,or 21. And you're supposed to
drink for most of every socialoccasion for the rest of your
life unless you're pregnant. Soa normal quote unquote, drinker
has alcohol on a regular basisfor the rest of their life. For
(18:52):
most of us as adults, we have noidea how we really feel what our
natural state what our naturalmental state what our body feels
like, at all without alcohol inour system. What I love about
taking a dry January, it's veryexploratory. It's a very
experimental basis to just see,how do I feel without alcohol,
that level of curiosity andability for it to just be this
(19:15):
break? And to ease into it inthe sense of let the experience
speak for itself?
DeAnn Knighton (19:20):
Yeah. And you know, there's also that
beautiful added benefit that'shappening behind the scenes with
your dopamine and rewiring thereward pathway. What also is
happening? Well, they're lookingfor the evidence that, hey,
things are going better. You'realso doing a little bit of brain
rewiring as well. It takespeople different amounts of time
for that rewiring to happen, butit does.
(19:40):
Let's move into talking a littlebit more from the workplace
perspective, you have a prettybroad business background,
you've worked in a lot ofdifferent environments as a
(20:33):
drinker and a non drinker, itlooks like so can you just give
some examples of before andafter experience of going
alcohol free.
Karolina Rzadkowalska (20:42):
So before I started my own business, I
worked in a university setting.
And you would think that auniversity they would you know,
want to not Institute drinkingso much for the youth and for
the college students. But Iworked at a Catholic University
who was a little prestigious.
And so alcohol was actually partof everything we did every even
(21:02):
lunch like, you know, gettogether like employee lunch or
any kind of student event oranything like that had alcohol
served. And it was kind offancier, right, they had servers
who came around with wine andbeer and stuff like that. But it
was so normalized. And even oneof the biggest fundraisers that
that place did, it was a bigwine classic, every single year.
So I'll call it was really kindof entrenched, not in the sense
(21:24):
of let's binge drink, and haveall these college kids, you
know, have unhealthyrelationships, but really poison
that sense of like, oh, this iswhat adulthood looks like, this
is what glamour looks like. Iwas one of the first people in
my known sphere in my workplaceto go alcohol free. And actually
I'd like announce it, you know,I was I was actually very proud
of it. And I took to I chose toadopt that story instead of the
(21:46):
story of this is embarrassing.
And you know, everyone's goingto think something about me
because I felt just soempowered, and how much better
alcohol free living is for mostpeople. And I knew that I had to
show it with my own example. Ihad to be prideful about it, I
had to showcase to people thatthere's a different way. And
what was so incredible when thathappened is people started
coming out of the woodworks andsaying like, Oh my gosh, I quit
drinking myself too, or, or I'vebeen debating it, you know, for
(22:09):
a while to you know, yourexample really helps. And so
many people around me decided totake breaks or to commit to
being alcohol free as well. Itwas really, really incredible to
see. And then what happened tois that as we had some more
culture discussions around ourworkplace, more people started
voicing, hey, is all theentertainment we really have to
offer here are going to revolvearound alcohol. How inclusive is
(22:30):
that? And I'll say one thingabout a workplace scenario is
oftentimes, there's thisassumption that what everyone
wants to do and is fun for themis drinking. So let's provide
the drinking and everything willbe fun for them. But that's such
an assumption. So for example, Ihave a friend who works in the
innovation space in San Diegofor like all the biotech firms
(22:52):
and stuff and her company helpslike bring them together so they
can collaborate and innovate andall those things. And her boss
is like a big drinker. So theylove doing these happy hours and
craft beer nights, and all thiskind of stuff. And they're
noticing that they're gettingreally low attendance,
especially in the last threeyears or so. And they did a
little field work. And she foundout that most CEOs don't have
(23:12):
time for drinking. And it's notlike they don't have time
because they're so busy. It'smore of a exceptional leaders
don't have time to mess withalcohol. It's either someone
they decided to quit, or theydecided to just not really go
deep in there because they haveso much better things to do with
their genius. And with theirvision in life, a lot of leaders
(23:33):
don't drink, right. And that'swhat we're finding more and
more. So I think an alcohol freespace is that it's not a signal
of a problem necessarily. It'salso the ticket to success. And
I think when you reframe it thatway, no matter how someone
arrives at it, it can be seen assuch a bonus, it's such a plus
in the workplace. But it's alsojust again, this assumption that
if everyone wants to drink, andthat's what's fun to them, well,
(23:54):
then it's so easy to just put upa bar, make that you know,
employee, whatever. But it alsotakes a little bit more
creativity and ingenuity to sayis this really all we're going
to think about for entertainmentand for team building and all
those different things in orderto actually bring in more
inclusive but also holisticoptions? And I think that's
what's really exciting right nowis companies get to reevaluate
what kind of culture they wantto create, by kind of
(24:17):
inclusivity they want to createand kind of thinking outside of
the box. And this easy, well,let's just open a bottle of wine
and everyone's gonna have fun.
DeAnn Knighton (24:25):
And I think the expectations have shifted for
organizations, it's past time tobe doing that based on what's
happening culturally. You know,I had this interesting
experience of moving from beingin sort of my age group of 40
ish folks, and workingspecifically with 22 to 24 year
olds for about a two year periodof time that I hired into this
(24:46):
company, and I was definitelythe oldest person in the room by
far, and I was sober. And I wasreally anxious going in right
because that's how I hadconnected with people. That's
how I knew how to be this is asales environment they're going
to expect like this for me,there were things but for the
most part, I was actually verysurprised by how little pushback
(25:07):
I actually really got about thefact that I didn't drink, I
expected it to be a lot moreawkward and uncomfortable than
it was. And I feel like youcorrect me if I'm wrong. But I
did feel like there was a littlebit of a generational
difference. There was a morecomfort level with talking about
mental health with talking aboutthings that were going on with
us with talking about, hey, thisisn't for me and people being
(25:27):
okay with that. That was just aperspective I had but curious
what you think there?
Unknown (25:32):
Oh, for sure, you know, I actually was able to share my
story to an audience of theuniversity students. And so many
university students came up tome, and were just like, thank
you so much, because you'redebunking this idea that I have
to do this thing to belong. Andso many people found it in other
areas, not just with alcohol,like, I don't have to conform to
(25:52):
this identity, or this behavior,or this pattern in order to be
happy, right, I'm allowed tokind of choose my own way and do
the things that are aligned withmy lifestyle and my values. I
think it's just giving more andmore people permission to you
know, explore life differently.
And I think that obviously, ishappening in the younger
generations, where, like yousaid, mental health is more
important. Holistic Health ismore important to right, like, I
see these tick tock videos ofwomen just doing like a two hour
(26:14):
skincare routine, like where'sthe time for drinking, and that
right there isn't, you know whatI mean, it's just this like,
more of a lens on the importanceof taking care of yourself, it's
kind of really gotten big aswell, which I love. Things are
definitely changing. And it justdoesn't have to mean anything.
And I still get so sad when Isee the opposite. When I see
young people who, you know, Ionce was talking to a college
(26:36):
aid student who told me that forthey're super precocious,
they're like on the track to bea successful entrepreneur pretty
soon out of college just likedoing all those incredible
personal development things. Andthey told me that the one thing
that holds them back isdrinking. And drinking was not
something that was a problem intheir life. It's what they're
doing socially with theirfriends, but they can already
see what a problem it is. Andlike how it just takes a while
(26:58):
to jump back into the motivationand all those kinds of things.
But he didn't see analternative. He like he didn't
see a way out of that, like, howam I supposed to belong with my
peers if I don't do that. Andthat made me really sad, because
we created that culture. I don'tjust mean you and me and just
people our age, but like thepeople before him created that
(27:19):
culture and that expectation,and now I think it's our job to
change it. And for anyone whohas kids themselves or just
cares about the next generationsof people, it is our job to
change it. Right? This culturalexpectation that thou shalt
drink or thou isn't normal, isnot right. That's I feel really
strongly about speaking outabout it.
DeAnn Knighton (27:39):
that's really powerful. I like it framed up
that way. The last thing Iwanted to chat on, and this
one's kind of a tricky one. Butit's something that I'm running
into quite a bit. And I wantedto get your take on it is this
odd and interesting divisionthat even exists in the world of
non drinkers. And what I'mspeaking about is the spectrum
that you've already talked aboutthat, ultimately, there are
(28:00):
those who relate to substancesin different ways. And there are
some that like myself, thatrelated to them in really
detrimental ways and had to getadditional support to be able to
get through that. There arepeople who are sober now who
have been sober for years whohave really, obviously strong
beliefs and understandings aboutwhat worked for them, and why
(28:23):
that changed things. For them.
One of those beliefs is avoidingor not necessarily being around
beverages that are reminiscentof being alcoholic, just as an
example. I just feel like it's ashame that there isn't a little
bit more connection that wecan't see very clearly that by
building up environments thatare more inclusive, for those
who don't drink, that it helpseveryone, at any level of
(28:45):
decision making around drinkingor not drinking, it's way better
than anything we've had. Whatwould you say about that
paradox? And what are yourthoughts you have about how we
can continue to bridge that?
I love this question. It's sothoughtful. And, you know,
obviously, there is so muchhistorical context that goes
(29:05):
into it. But you know, for along time, there was only one
way and that one way worked,because it was one of the only
ways that was available. Itdoesn't matter what mental
health issue or challenge we'retalking about, we're always
going to be innovating, there'salways going to be an evolution
in our thinking, actually, youcould say that for any academic
field on the planet. With timewe are going to evolve our
(29:26):
thinking and expand what we knowabout that topic and solutions
to that that is just the natureof evolution and progression.
And so I think obviously that ishappening in the alcohol free
space where now there's so manyother ways of changing your
relationship with alcohol. Andwhat got really big and
important which really helped meand what I help other people do
is changing your beliefs aboutalcohol what you think it does
(29:47):
for you and really nullifyingthem so that you don't believe
it does anything for you,instead of willpower in your way
away from it. I think that thatsubconscious work is really
important when it comes to likehow we all play together well
I'll, I mean, personally, frommy perspective, you know, I
considered myself a gray areadrinker. And I'm going to use
completely different words andsolutions when it comes to
(30:09):
talking to other gray areadrinkers and especially when I'm
talking to people at evenearlier stages than that, being
willing to evolve and to changesome of our language. And some
of the way that we talk aboutit, or the methods that we use
to reevaluate I think is super,super helpful. But it also
doesn't go to say that the othermethods don't work. There's a
solution for different kinds ofpeople found in different ways.
(30:31):
And if something's vibing, foryou go for it. If it's not
vibing, for you, that's fine.
You don't have to go for it. Youdon't have to attack it either.
Right? So if we all kind of justplayed along a little bit, well,
I think would be better. If Iremember, I usually try not to
read my reviews. But my husband,let me know that there was one
review about my book that wasjust like, so out of touch and
just not talking to like,basically the alcoholic under
the bridge with a paper bag. AndI'm like, Yeah, that's the
(30:53):
point. I didn't write my bookfor that person. I wrote my book
for someone who's in that moregray area. And thank God I did,
because that serves such a bigpopulation of people. And
there's other resources thatserve other populations. And
that's not just to say, a dividebetween drinking levels and
consumption levels. It's alsojust what we vibe with, you
know, like, some people reallywant a more spiritual path. Some
(31:13):
people want a more, you know,emotional releasing type path,
some people want really acognitive behavioral type
change. So I just think the moresolutions that we have out
there, the more people that aregoing to get helped. And things
like dry January, even have beensometimes vilified to as like,
that's not a solution. You know,that's denial, we're helping
people really experiment, youknow, and really try on a
(31:37):
different ways. And the morethat we can like, really just
make alcohol, less of a dominantway of living, I think is
better. And recognizing, too,that even when it comes to the
non drinkers, sometimes we'vemade that paradigm continue to
be true that there's this ideathat alcohol is out there, and
it's totally fine for thosepeople, but not for these
(31:58):
people, you know, it's like,well, maybe we need to
reevaluate that, too. I mean,the science shows there is no
safe amount of alcohol, and thatany level of drinking is going
to just increase risk, I thinkwe just need a whole paradigm
shift about how we talk aboutalcohol, really recognizing that
we're not going to let thealcohol industry kind of get
away with a narrative that it'sbeen saying, for so long of just
drink responsibly, as a showthat just came out about like
(32:21):
these cartoons who say thingslike more clearly than the way
we talk about things. And it wasI'll have a mild poison, please.
That's what alcohol is, if wereally just call it for what it
is. So I think, again, thatthere's prevention, and to
recognize if something if youdon't like something, but it's
geared towards a differentaudience or to a different, you
know, level of reevaluation,it's actually probably more on
(32:42):
that prevention bucket. Andthat's incredible that exists,
you know, and then there's otherobviously more in depth, you
know, and more serious kind oftreatments. And just depending
on where someone is, in so manydifferent levels of, you know,
their emotional health, theirspiritual health, all those
different kinds of things, thenit's worth doing that. And I
also want to say too, that evenin the alcohol free the New Age,
kind of alcohol free bucket,just reevaluating your alcohol
(33:05):
beliefs, I don't think isenough, like, I think after that
comes this huge personaldevelopment, that is our job to
kind of take on. For me, it waskind of like a given. And that's
what I would do. And sometimes Isee people not really leaning
into that as much, and they'restill kind of unhappy, because
maybe the alcohol is out of thepicture, but they didn't solve
the underlying, you know,challenges. So it's, our job is
(33:25):
to heal our job is to grow. Ourjob is to challenge old limiting
beliefs, no matter where theycome from, or in what realm they
are in our lives. And I think ifwe all just commit to that,
we're going to see such ahealthier sense of fulfillment
moving forward. And I reallyI think that's a really smart
way of saying it. And I thinkwhen we think of that spectrum,
(33:45):
too, it's like the common groundis not necessarily going to be
how each person heals or findtheir own way to healing. We do
like to be a little bitcreative. It's pretty hard to
not agree that normalizing nondrinking is helpful for a broad
range of people impacted byalcohol. Well that we can agree
on. Karolina, thank you so muchfor doing this. This was a
(34:09):
pleasure. I just love how muchthought and consideration you've
given to this issue and all thework that you're doing in this
space as well and all of thepeople that are benefiting. Tell
us what you're up to these dayswhere we can find you on the
internet.
Unknown (34:22):
I'm a big reader myself. So I love to get to know
people through a book. So I'dlove for you to check it out.
It's called euphoric ditchalcohol again, a happier, more
confident you. You can find iton Amazon just type in euphoric
or go to euphoric book.com. I'malso on euphoric af.com is my
main website and not only do Ihelp women reevaluate the
relationship with alcohol but Ilove what happens next. I love
(34:43):
helping them discover theirdeeper purpose and really go
after their dreams and so notonly do we have programs that
help you launch your business orwrite a book we also have a
certification that's helping newalcohol free coaches get
certified as mindset coachSuccess Coach NLP practitioner
and Alcohol Free Coach, our nextcohort starts next year. So I
also have retreats that I loveto run with alcohol free women.
(35:06):
Just a lot of fun stuff. You cansee it all at you fork f.com.
And I'm pretty active oninstagram@euphoric.af. And feel
free to shoot me a DM or aquestion. I'd love to hear from
you.
DeAnn Knighton (35:16):
I want to do one more little thing. I'm starting
this YouTube channel that isgoing to be when I talk to sober
people, I'm just going to askthem about their favorite
recovery jam. I'm going torecord them talking about why
they love it, why it inspiresthem. Can you tell us do you
have your best recovery jam? Andwhat is it about it that you
love?
Karolina Rzadkowals (35:32):
Absolutely.
So it's called Live In TheMoment by Portugal, the ma. And
it was a song that was superpivotal for me when I was taking
a break from alcohol like myfirst few months. And I remember
there's this line aboutsomething about Sunday morning.
And it's like a very happy song.
And they're just like Sundaymorning. And you know, when I
(35:53):
was drinking Sunday morningwasn't necessarily the best,
right? you'd wake up fromSaturday night and just be like,
Oh, I wanted to go to yoga, Idon't really feel that great,
whatever and now I was livingthis high. I was like I am
(36:20):
living at the peak of myemotional state. This feels so
good. Like, I'm so excited. Andthat line Sunday morning just
really resonated. Like this iswhat life could be like even
Monday morning could feel likethis. You know what I mean? Like
it was just so incredible. Andit's such an upbeat song, I'd
definitely recommend you guyscheck it out because I
absolutely loved it. And I didhave a playlist I remember
having a playlist of songs thatkind of were speaking to me
(36:43):
about not only why thislifestyle was amazing, but
really motivating me to want tosee how much better it gets. And
that was ultimately why Idecided to remain alcohol free.
I remember I even got to ajuncture where I was like, Oh,
should I drink again or not? Andbecause there was always
supposed to just be a break. Andthat was like the line of
questioning is like well youknow what a beer tastes like you
know what it feels like you knowhow you feel afterwards but
(37:05):
you've never seen what thistrajectory is going to take for
you. You've never seen whatyou're capable of this way so
why not find out and that got meso excited
DeAnn Knighton (37:34):
for more information, please visit our
website,soberpositiveworkplace.org. This
podcast is written Created andproduced by DeAnn Knighton.
Featuring music from thewickedly talented Katie Hare
Oh hello. This is the sober positive workplace
series brought to you by show upand stay. I'm your host Deann
Karolina Rzadkowalska (00:15):
It was kind of fancier, right? They had
Knighton.
servers who came around withwine and beer and stuff like
that, but it was so normalizedand even one of the biggest
fundraisers that that place didit was a big wine classic every
single year. So I'll call it wasreally kind of entrenched not in
(00:35):
the sense of let's binge drinkand have all these college kids
you know, have unhealthyrelationships but really poison
that sense of like, oh, this iswhat adulthood looks like. This
is what glamour looks like
DeAnn Knighton (00:44):
Karolina Rzadlowalska is a powerful voice
in the alcohol free movement. Inher book Euphoric, she provides
tools to support growth mindedindividuals that want to take a
break from alcohol. She's beenfeatured in 50 Plus articles on
media platforms, including RealSimple Huffington Post, Elite
(01:07):
Daily, the Sunday Post, KatieCouric, Pop Sugar, and has
appeared on something like 200podcasts. Yes, this is
definitely not a surprise whenyou hear how eloquently she
conveys her message today. Thisdiscussion with Karolina and I
is focused on individuals andtheir relationships with
(01:27):
alcohol, and even morespecifically looking through the
lens of addressing an alcoholrelationship as a preventative
measure. This is with the hopesof avoiding future and more
potentially devastating results.
I feel a responsibility to notethat depending on the severity
of alcohol addiction, alcoholwithdrawal can be very dangerous
(01:48):
and can cause death for some,not everything that is talked
about here on the show todayapplies to every person or to
every story. It does represent agrowing movement that I believe
has the ability to support theneeds of an important
constituency, and one with thepotential for a positive trickle
(02:10):
down effect that could impactanyone evaluating their
relationship with alcohol.
Karolina has strong and validconcerns around the potential
dangers of alcohol culture. Shespeaks openly about the risks of
alcohol, not only for those withaddiction, but more broadly, no
(02:31):
matter where you stand on thisissue, we are looking to bring
awareness to different ways thatthe next generation may be
thinking about alcohol. So wecan start now to have our
workplaces reflect thatideology. This is a chance to
reflect on the timing andinfluence that the alcohol free
movement might be able to haveon some of our broader social
(02:53):
issues. And the reality of thenegative influence of some of
our long held beliefs thatfrankly, just don't make sense
anymore. particularly as itrelates to our attitudes towards
the positioning of alcohol inour social spaces. I think
there's something here foreveryone. Also, I tell a really
(03:14):
embarrassing story about mytwisted days at Weight Watchers
and how I manipulated the pointsystem to make sure I left ample
space for alcohol consumption.
Lucky for all of us, I am prettyshameless at this stage in my
public disclosures. Withoutfurther ado, please enjoy this
conversation.
I feel like the timing for us toconnect is kind of meant to be
(03:37):
because I know you have so muchthat you can offer the
conversations that we've beenhaving around normalizing
alcohol free choices in theworkplace. Although this is only
I know, a small piece of theissue. Do you feel like it's an
important one in particular,because of the shifts that we
are seeing right now and thewhole culture in the last few
years, before we get into any ofthat I want to know you a little
(04:00):
bit better, I want to helppeople get to know you a little
bit better. So maybe we startwith you telling us a little bit
from your own experience, maybesome of the major ways that your
personal perspective of alcoholhas changed over the last
several years and what it wasthere.
Karolina Rzadkowalska (04:16):
I obviously grew up drinking as
most of us do. And you know,something that I love to do as
an alcohol free coach andempowerment expert is actually
look into behind the scenes ofwhat kind of societal
conditioning we all receive toget there. Instead of taking it
as comes some kind of personalmoral dilemma or feeling of my
own. You know, I grew up in asociety I have to recognize that
(04:38):
really pushed me to drink atmost occasions, you know, and so
I grew up obviously in highschool, college is when I
started dabbling with alcoholand in college, I just turned
into like this party egoidentity. I was really shy and
introverted growing up and soalcohol at that point became
this tool for me to really getout of my shell and meet new
people and you know, I had justno boundaries around it. I'll
(05:00):
pop that point. But the thingis, is that like what everyone
was doing, right, that's likewhat college look like. And you
know, there wasn't it was reallythis like rite of passage, the
way I look at kind of the, thearchitecture of our cultural
institutions, when it comes toalcohol is we actually have
these really defining momentswhere it's like, Okay, you go
from being a non drinker in yourearly adolescence to being a
(05:21):
drinker. And that makes you havestatus in this society, it makes
you feel like an adult, it givesyou independence, maybe it gives
you a sense of rebellious Ness,maybe it gives you a sense of
glamour, sophistication. Sowhatever that was, and I just
see myself following on thattrajectory. And so again, no
healthy boundaries arounddrinking in college. But as I
started to grow up, I started tokind of put on that next persona
(05:42):
of drinking that was presentedto me, and it was this
sophisticated adult that drankwine, and you know, also had a
pretty healthy and put togetherlifestyle. And so that's what I
tried to conform to, I startedto adopt a really healthy and
mindful lifestyle. So basically,Monday through Thursday, I lived
a quite healthy lifestyle, Iwould drink green juices, I
would go to yoga class, I wouldmeditate. And on the weekend, I
(06:03):
would go out with friends, maybeit was a sushi dinner, maybe it
was a game night, I would havesome wine at home with Netflix,
whatever it was, alcohol wasalways involved. But it was also
basically following the ruleslike this is what every single
adult does. This is what all mycolleagues at work do. We drink
on the weekend, we let loose orwe go visit the new winery or
the new brewery. And so eventhough it's trying to make
(06:24):
alcohol the smaller part of mylife, it didn't matter what
happened. Every Monday morning,I woke up feeling shell shocked.
I woke up feeling emotionallylow, exhausted, and super
groggy. And I had been gettingthis signs and basically this
like voice that was telling meyou were made for so much more
than this. You deserve so muchbetter than this for years. So
(06:44):
the cycle was playing out oflike live healthy during the
week drink over the weekend foryears and years and years. And I
was always feeling thisintuitive hunch, like, Can we
take a break? Can we just notdrink. And it was always the
social calendar that stopped meit was looking out, oh, well,
this Friday, you have thatwedding or this Saturday, you
have that dinner party, orthere's that work event or
something. And I always felt solocked into this identity of
(07:08):
well, if you're an adult, youhave to drink. And so I didn't
listen to that voice for yearsuntil I finally did. And it was
actually dry January thatfinally kind of gave me
permission to take a break fromalcohol, it was this like
socially acceptable means ofdoing it without having to
explain it to anyone, or tellingyou when I had a problem or
anything like that. And I fellin love. You know, like at first
(07:30):
I had to deal with cravings andhow to manage my time on a
Friday night. But I reallystarted to fall in love with how
deep my sleep was and howpeaceful I felt every morning
and how I started appreciatingnature and just having like,
real belly laughs again, justreally falling in love with joy
I felt for my life. And I wasn'tyet that convinced that I was
(07:50):
allowed to remain a non drinker.
Again, it's like so much of thiscultural rules that I'm trying
to follow. And so in February, Idrank a few times again, because
I again, I thought that that'swhat it meant to be a normal
adult. But the contrast was justtoo much for me, it was like
even a drink or two wouldcompletely ruin my sleep make me
feel not as happy as I wasfeeling. And I even noticed an
hour or so after having a drink,my mood would go crashing, I
(08:13):
would feel impatient andfrustrated. And for me, drinking
was always like a way to feelhappier, more excited or have
some kind of thing to lookforward to. And I was like this
isn't fun. And so I decided totake another break at the end of
February. And I've basicallybeen alcohol free ever since
five and a half years later, andreally redefining what it means
(08:33):
to be a non drinker. So I'd loveto talk about alcohol and
changing your relationship withit. But it's really also what
happens after alcohol that I'mso passionate about. Because I
got to the core of why was Idrinking, I was living this TGIF
lifestyle. I couldn't wait forthe weekend, without realizing
that I was probably unfulfilledwith how my week was going. And
(08:53):
so instead of just, you knowwaiting for the weekend, I
designed my life in such a waywhere I get fulfillment every
day. And I went after some ofthe biggest trends of my heart,
like becoming an entrepreneur,writing a book traveling around
the world more often. And I justfeel like I'm also making an
impact with my life. And thoseare the core things that have
really given me so much moremeaning and purpose that a 20
(09:14):
minute buzz just can't compareto. So I love these
conversations about normalizingan alcohol free lifestyle for
any reason. And I think it's soimportant to look at like the
cultural institutions around usto recognize how little
permission we give people tolive an alternate lifestyle.
DeAnn Knighton (09:31):
There's something fascinating about the
idea of moderation to me too.
There's also this feeling thatfor some reason, if I can't
moderate there's something wrongwith me, instead of like this
realization that there might besomething much bigger at play
than my own willpower. I alwaysbelieved it was my own failing.
One of the things that youmentioned in your book that I
think is really powerful was thestatistic that 60% of those who
(09:53):
use alcohol misuse alcohol.
We've had all of these changingideas is around what is
appropriate alcohol consumption,what is not, the reality is a
good portion of us whether ornot we have an issue with
alcohol misuse is common. And Iliked the way that you'd framed
up the different type ofrelationships people might have
(10:15):
with alcohol, what that spectrumcan look like.
Karolina Rzadkowalska (10:18):
I love this, because I think what kept
me so stuck for so long wasthinking about it in such a
black and white terms. And Ithink that's what traditionally
society does is you're either inthe bucket of normal drinkers
who moderate and can beresponsible with their alcohol,
or the bucket of people who areOoh, you drink too much in your
life, you have to quit that now.
And that's on you. And the truthis, when we look at consumption
(10:39):
levels and statistics is therearen't buckets, there are no two
buckets like that it is thishuge spectrum. And most people
do find themselves in the middleof that spectrum, and that kind
of Messier, gray area. And so60% of people over drink in the
United States, meaning that awoman has more than one drink,
she is now considered heavy,risky drinking according to the
medical establishment, and itgets even lower. Like in Canada,
(11:01):
the drinking limits have gonelower and lower, because there's
just no safe amount of alcohol.
And when you look aroundSociety, who is always stopping
at that one drink, you know,like, when you go to a dinner
party, it's not like, thesommelier stops pouring the
bottle after the first drink.
It's not like, you go to abarbecue, and everyone has a
ticket for just the one drink,right? Like, that's just not how
(11:22):
we observe drinking behaviorwhatsoever. And most people find
themselves drinking more ofteneither from the pandemic, either
socially the weekend, likeletting off the steam, or even
just making it a regular habitat home. And so what's so
interesting too, is that they'vealso found that most people over
52% actually wish that theydrink less or not at all. So
it's not just that we're overdrinking. And that's very
(11:44):
normalized, people arerecognizing it, and they don't
like it, and they wish that theywere drinking less. So again,
like these old fashioned blackand white kind of buckets just
don't really hold any ground.
And there is this unsafe, andalmost unhealthy relationship
that society has with alcohol.
And so any form of allowingpeople more space and intuition
and permission to reevaluatethat is so healthy, and
(12:07):
recognizing to how much are wecontributing to this push. And
this expectation to drink in ourcultural institutions is also
super important to recognize aswell. And you know, I see it all
the time, I think that when youare health minded, when you are
conscious, when you're reallyinvestigating a life of fuller
awareness, and more intuition,and more healthy habits, it's
(12:27):
kind of impossible to makealcohol work in that scenario,
you know, like, your intuitionsgonna feel it, even after just
one drink, you're gonna feeldifferent the next day than if
you didn't have that drink atall. So I really just see so
many more people becoming moreintuitive, like really listening
to their body really listeningto their mind really listening
to their soul, about what'sworking for them, instead of
(12:48):
trying to plug themselves intosome kind of hole or some kind
of box, they're really justasking themselves, does this
work for me? And does this alignwith the kind of lifestyle I
want to have? And I think thoseare just such intuitive
questions to ask versus Do Ihave a problem, it didn't have
to take me seven years ofrepeating that cycle over and
over and over again, of alreadyknowing I didn't like it before,
(13:09):
I was able to make a change ofreally actually learning how to
reevaluate alcohol in a muchhealthier way earlier on. And I
think that's what my work reallydoes is that there's no divisive
us versus them of like the grayarea drinker versus like the
heavier drinker. We're talkingabout approaching the problem at
earlier stages. And we're goingto use different language and
different solutions.
DeAnn Knighton (13:29):
You know, I'm going to share this with you. I
haven't actually talked aboutthis before, I grew up in weight
watcher culture, and I alwayshad some struggle with food,
right. So I joined WeightWatchers a couple of different
times in my early 20s. And theinteresting thing about the
program was, you know, it wasall point spaced, and you had a
certain amount of points thatyou could use every single day
(13:49):
to meet whatever you wereallowed to eat dinner was this
game that we all we're playingaround, okay, well, so it's two
points for a shot of vodka. So,depending on how much I'm going
to drink tonight, then I onlyhave this much reserved for
food. This seemed like a normalpractice to me when I was doing
it. And I even rememberterrifically, at one point in
(14:11):
time, I threw up after drinking,and I thought, Oh, does that
mean I have more points than Ican eat today? Just trying to
illustrate with my ownembarrassing reality, how the
mind can just get wrapped aroundthese really strange ways of
trying to make something workthat maybe just doesn't work.
(14:40):
What are the roadblocks here? Imean, I hear you speak and I'm
like the whole this just seemslike a no brainer, right? But it
isn't. It's tricky. It's reallytricky. We'll talk in a minute
about some of the ways it'stricky, even within the alcohol
free community, but what do youfeel like gets in our way? What
makes this a bigger thing? Oh,Polycom than it should be,
Karolina Rzadkowalska (15:01):
I honestly think it's the social
aspect. And even though somepeople have very private habits
at home, I'm not saying thatthat isn't a hard thing to
overcome and to make changesaround at the core of it,
there's this existential dilemmaof who am I if I don't belong,
like this with these people. Andit's not just in your core
friend group. And if I were togo to a conference, somehow, in
(15:22):
our society drinkers areelevated, right? They have
elevated status in the sensethat they seem more glamorous or
more sophisticated, or whateverlies have been baked on the
alcohol through marketing, andso forth. You know, there's a
reason why we have the JamesBond Shaken, not stirred thing
like that marks something abouthim. There's a reason why like
Olivia Pope went to alcoholevery night after her busy day.
(15:44):
And there was something thatthese directors were trying to
impart to us about theircharacters about how complex and
deep and sophisticated andglamorous they were, that's been
embedded as a message into oursubconscious for so long. And
the opposite is also true. We'vebeen embedding into our
subconscious that a non drinkeris either a a problem, or be on
the other side of the spectrum,boring, pious or religious,
(16:06):
right? And so it's like, how doyou exist as there's all these
things to change, right? Likeyou, we want to change how we
perceive alcohol, we want tomake sure we clear any sort of
identification with any sort ofbenefit, pleasure or comfort
that's coming from alcohol,because 99 times out of 100.
It's not coming from alcohol.
It's like this story that we'remaking up in our head. And so
that can be a really deepprocess of changing our
(16:28):
subconscious around what webelieve with alcohol. I call
that the mindset process. I'veshared my book. But I think at
the core of it, the harderthing, is that social aspect of
who am I if I don't drink? Andwhat will these people think? Or
how do I approach it in thisscenario? Or how do I bond with
my partner, if that's what we'veshared for so long. And there is
this belonging and acceptancethat we get from partaking in
(16:52):
this the way that other peopledo. And so what's so cool is
that we're seeing alternatives.
Now we're seeing a bunch ofpeople who are shunning this way
of bonding and creating theirown spaces. We see alcohol free
drinks, really popping up sothat every space can be
inclusive is the hopefully thegoal whether people are drinking
or not, we're both sharing thebonding, we're sharing the
(17:13):
ritual together. And so there'sso many different ways around
that. But I think it's going tobe a just a huge shift in how we
see alcohol, and how we seebonding and belonging in our
society, it really has to comefrom a point of pride and a
point of I love this lifestyleto remain sustainable as well.
I'm sure there's so much morethat comes up. As we think about
(17:34):
this. I think we're all makingour mark on the world by
shifting that conversation. Likeeven one person showing up to a
networking event and notdrinking is giving other people
permission that that isacceptable that that's okay. I
think we're all creating theseripple effects everywhere we go
by standing for the alcohol freelifestyle.
DeAnn Knighton (17:52):
From my own experience, I went into
treatment, and the first yearand a half of being sober was
very difficult. I was whiteknuckling every step of the way.
It actually wasn't until Istarted to do what you're
talking about, which was changethe way I think about it, listen
to people talk about it in a waythat didn't feel so yucky and
(18:12):
shameful. Then everythingshifted.
Unknown (18:17):
What I love about the idea of a break from alcohol is
the brain is going to scream atyou. Whenever you say you're
doing something for forever.
It's like what we're getting outof our comfort zone and never
getting this treat ever again.
You are crazy.
DeAnn Knighton (18:30):
the rebel comes roaring out!
Karolina Rzadkowalska (18:32):
And that's the thing is that we have
to recognize, too, that if youare a quote unquote, normal
drinker, and I'm using airquotes, you as a normal drinker
started drinking when you're 18,or 21. And you're supposed to
drink for most of every socialoccasion for the rest of your
life unless you're pregnant. Soa normal quote unquote, drinker
has alcohol on a regular basisfor the rest of their life. For
(18:52):
most of us as adults, we have noidea how we really feel what our
natural state what our naturalmental state what our body feels
like, at all without alcohol inour system. What I love about
taking a dry January, it's veryexploratory. It's a very
experimental basis to just see,how do I feel without alcohol,
that level of curiosity andability for it to just be this
(19:15):
break? And to ease into it inthe sense of let the experience
speak for itself?
DeAnn Knighton (19:20):
Yeah. And you know, there's also that
beautiful added benefit that'shappening behind the scenes with
your dopamine and rewiring thereward pathway. What also is
happening? Well, they're lookingfor the evidence that, hey,
things are going better. You'realso doing a little bit of brain
rewiring as well. It takespeople different amounts of time
for that rewiring to happen, butit does.
(19:40):
Let's move into talking a littlebit more from the workplace
perspective, you have a prettybroad business background,
you've worked in a lot ofdifferent environments as a
(20:33):
drinker and a non drinker, itlooks like so can you just give
some examples of before andafter experience of going
alcohol free.
Karolina Rzadkowalska (20:42):
So before I started my own business, I
worked in a university setting.
And you would think that auniversity they would you know,
want to not Institute drinkingso much for the youth and for
the college students. But Iworked at a Catholic University
who was a little prestigious.
And so alcohol was actually partof everything we did every even
(21:02):
lunch like, you know, gettogether like employee lunch or
any kind of student event oranything like that had alcohol
served. And it was kind offancier, right, they had servers
who came around with wine andbeer and stuff like that. But it
was so normalized. And even oneof the biggest fundraisers that
that place did, it was a bigwine classic, every single year.
So I'll call it was really kindof entrenched, not in the sense
(21:24):
of let's binge drink, and haveall these college kids, you
know, have unhealthyrelationships, but really poison
that sense of like, oh, this iswhat adulthood looks like, this
is what glamour looks like. Iwas one of the first people in
my known sphere in my workplaceto go alcohol free. And actually
I'd like announce it, you know,I was I was actually very proud
of it. And I took to I chose toadopt that story instead of the
(21:46):
story of this is embarrassing.
And you know, everyone's goingto think something about me
because I felt just soempowered, and how much better
alcohol free living is for mostpeople. And I knew that I had to
show it with my own example. Ihad to be prideful about it, I
had to showcase to people thatthere's a different way. And
what was so incredible when thathappened is people started
coming out of the woodworks andsaying like, Oh my gosh, I quit
drinking myself too, or, or I'vebeen debating it, you know, for
(22:09):
a while to you know, yourexample really helps. And so
many people around me decided totake breaks or to commit to
being alcohol free as well. Itwas really, really incredible to
see. And then what happened tois that as we had some more
culture discussions around ourworkplace, more people started
voicing, hey, is all theentertainment we really have to
offer here are going to revolvearound alcohol. How inclusive is
(22:30):
that? And I'll say one thingabout a workplace scenario is
oftentimes, there's thisassumption that what everyone
wants to do and is fun for themis drinking. So let's provide
the drinking and everything willbe fun for them. But that's such
an assumption. So for example, Ihave a friend who works in the
innovation space in San Diegofor like all the biotech firms
(22:52):
and stuff and her company helpslike bring them together so they
can collaborate and innovate andall those things. And her boss
is like a big drinker. So theylove doing these happy hours and
craft beer nights, and all thiskind of stuff. And they're
noticing that they're gettingreally low attendance,
especially in the last threeyears or so. And they did a
little field work. And she foundout that most CEOs don't have
(23:12):
time for drinking. And it's notlike they don't have time
because they're so busy. It'smore of a exceptional leaders
don't have time to mess withalcohol. It's either someone
they decided to quit, or theydecided to just not really go
deep in there because they haveso much better things to do with
their genius. And with theirvision in life, a lot of leaders
(23:33):
don't drink, right. And that'swhat we're finding more and
more. So I think an alcohol freespace is that it's not a signal
of a problem necessarily. It'salso the ticket to success. And
I think when you reframe it thatway, no matter how someone
arrives at it, it can be seen assuch a bonus, it's such a plus
in the workplace. But it's alsojust again, this assumption that
if everyone wants to drink, andthat's what's fun to them, well,
(23:54):
then it's so easy to just put upa bar, make that you know,
employee, whatever. But it alsotakes a little bit more
creativity and ingenuity to sayis this really all we're going
to think about for entertainmentand for team building and all
those different things in orderto actually bring in more
inclusive but also holisticoptions? And I think that's
what's really exciting right nowis companies get to reevaluate
what kind of culture they wantto create, by kind of
(24:17):
inclusivity they want to createand kind of thinking outside of
the box. And this easy, well,let's just open a bottle of wine
and everyone's gonna have fun.
DeAnn Knighton (24:25):
And I think the expectations have shifted for
organizations, it's past time tobe doing that based on what's
happening culturally. You know,I had this interesting
experience of moving from beingin sort of my age group of 40
ish folks, and workingspecifically with 22 to 24 year
olds for about a two year periodof time that I hired into this
(24:46):
company, and I was definitelythe oldest person in the room by
far, and I was sober. And I wasreally anxious going in right
because that's how I hadconnected with people. That's
how I knew how to be this is asales environment they're going
to expect like this for me,there were things but for the
most part, I was actually verysurprised by how little pushback
(25:07):
I actually really got about thefact that I didn't drink, I
expected it to be a lot moreawkward and uncomfortable than
it was. And I feel like youcorrect me if I'm wrong. But I
did feel like there was a littlebit of a generational
difference. There was a morecomfort level with talking about
mental health with talking aboutthings that were going on with
us with talking about, hey, thisisn't for me and people being
(25:27):
okay with that. That was just aperspective I had but curious
what you think there?
Unknown (25:32):
Oh, for sure, you know, I actually was able to share my
story to an audience of theuniversity students. And so many
university students came up tome, and were just like, thank
you so much, because you'redebunking this idea that I have
to do this thing to belong. Andso many people found it in other
areas, not just with alcohol,like, I don't have to conform to
(25:52):
this identity, or this behavior,or this pattern in order to be
happy, right, I'm allowed tokind of choose my own way and do
the things that are aligned withmy lifestyle and my values. I
think it's just giving more andmore people permission to you
know, explore life differently.
And I think that obviously, ishappening in the younger
generations, where, like yousaid, mental health is more
important. Holistic Health ismore important to right, like, I
see these tick tock videos ofwomen just doing like a two hour
(26:14):
skincare routine, like where'sthe time for drinking, and that
right there isn't, you know whatI mean, it's just this like,
more of a lens on the importanceof taking care of yourself, it's
kind of really gotten big aswell, which I love. Things are
definitely changing. And it justdoesn't have to mean anything.
And I still get so sad when Isee the opposite. When I see
young people who, you know, Ionce was talking to a college
(26:36):
aid student who told me that forthey're super precocious,
they're like on the track to bea successful entrepreneur pretty
soon out of college just likedoing all those incredible
personal development things. Andthey told me that the one thing
that holds them back isdrinking. And drinking was not
something that was a problem intheir life. It's what they're
doing socially with theirfriends, but they can already
see what a problem it is. Andlike how it just takes a while
(26:58):
to jump back into the motivationand all those kinds of things.
But he didn't see analternative. He like he didn't
see a way out of that, like, howam I supposed to belong with my
peers if I don't do that. Andthat made me really sad, because
we created that culture. I don'tjust mean you and me and just
people our age, but like thepeople before him created that
(27:19):
culture and that expectation,and now I think it's our job to
change it. And for anyone whohas kids themselves or just
cares about the next generationsof people, it is our job to
change it. Right? This culturalexpectation that thou shalt
drink or thou isn't normal, isnot right. That's I feel really
strongly about speaking outabout it.
DeAnn Knighton (27:39):
that's really powerful. I like it framed up
that way. The last thing Iwanted to chat on, and this
one's kind of a tricky one. Butit's something that I'm running
into quite a bit. And I wantedto get your take on it is this
odd and interesting divisionthat even exists in the world of
non drinkers. And what I'mspeaking about is the spectrum
that you've already talked aboutthat, ultimately, there are
(28:00):
those who relate to substancesin different ways. And there are
some that like myself, thatrelated to them in really
detrimental ways and had to getadditional support to be able to
get through that. There arepeople who are sober now who
have been sober for years whohave really, obviously strong
beliefs and understandings aboutwhat worked for them, and why
(28:23):
that changed things. For them.
One of those beliefs is avoidingor not necessarily being around
beverages that are reminiscentof being alcoholic, just as an
example. I just feel like it's ashame that there isn't a little
bit more connection that wecan't see very clearly that by
building up environments thatare more inclusive, for those
who don't drink, that it helpseveryone, at any level of
(28:45):
decision making around drinkingor not drinking, it's way better
than anything we've had. Whatwould you say about that
paradox? And what are yourthoughts you have about how we
can continue to bridge that?
I love this question. It's sothoughtful. And, you know,
obviously, there is so muchhistorical context that goes
(29:05):
into it. But you know, for along time, there was only one
way and that one way worked,because it was one of the only
ways that was available. Itdoesn't matter what mental
health issue or challenge we'retalking about, we're always
going to be innovating, there'salways going to be an evolution
in our thinking, actually, youcould say that for any academic
field on the planet. With timewe are going to evolve our
(29:26):
thinking and expand what we knowabout that topic and solutions
to that that is just the natureof evolution and progression.
And so I think obviously that ishappening in the alcohol free
space where now there's so manyother ways of changing your
relationship with alcohol. Andwhat got really big and
important which really helped meand what I help other people do
is changing your beliefs aboutalcohol what you think it does
(29:47):
for you and really nullifyingthem so that you don't believe
it does anything for you,instead of willpower in your way
away from it. I think that thatsubconscious work is really
important when it comes to likehow we all play together well
I'll, I mean, personally, frommy perspective, you know, I
considered myself a gray areadrinker. And I'm going to use
completely different words andsolutions when it comes to
(30:09):
talking to other gray areadrinkers and especially when I'm
talking to people at evenearlier stages than that, being
willing to evolve and to changesome of our language. And some
of the way that we talk aboutit, or the methods that we use
to reevaluate I think is super,super helpful. But it also
doesn't go to say that the othermethods don't work. There's a
solution for different kinds ofpeople found in different ways.
(30:31):
And if something's vibing, foryou go for it. If it's not
vibing, for you, that's fine.
You don't have to go for it. Youdon't have to attack it either.
Right? So if we all kind of justplayed along a little bit, well,
I think would be better. If Iremember, I usually try not to
read my reviews. But my husband,let me know that there was one
review about my book that wasjust like, so out of touch and
just not talking to like,basically the alcoholic under
the bridge with a paper bag. AndI'm like, Yeah, that's the
(30:53):
point. I didn't write my bookfor that person. I wrote my book
for someone who's in that moregray area. And thank God I did,
because that serves such a bigpopulation of people. And
there's other resources thatserve other populations. And
that's not just to say, a dividebetween drinking levels and
consumption levels. It's alsojust what we vibe with, you
know, like, some people reallywant a more spiritual path. Some
(31:13):
people want a more, you know,emotional releasing type path,
some people want really acognitive behavioral type
change. So I just think the moresolutions that we have out
there, the more people that aregoing to get helped. And things
like dry January, even have beensometimes vilified to as like,
that's not a solution. You know,that's denial, we're helping
people really experiment, youknow, and really try on a
(31:37):
different ways. And the morethat we can like, really just
make alcohol, less of a dominantway of living, I think is
better. And recognizing, too,that even when it comes to the
non drinkers, sometimes we'vemade that paradigm continue to
be true that there's this ideathat alcohol is out there, and
it's totally fine for thosepeople, but not for these
(31:58):
people, you know, it's like,well, maybe we need to
reevaluate that, too. I mean,the science shows there is no
safe amount of alcohol, and thatany level of drinking is going
to just increase risk, I thinkwe just need a whole paradigm
shift about how we talk aboutalcohol, really recognizing that
we're not going to let thealcohol industry kind of get
away with a narrative that it'sbeen saying, for so long of just
drink responsibly, as a showthat just came out about like
(32:21):
these cartoons who say thingslike more clearly than the way
we talk about things. And it wasI'll have a mild poison, please.
That's what alcohol is, if wereally just call it for what it
is. So I think, again, thatthere's prevention, and to
recognize if something if youdon't like something, but it's
geared towards a differentaudience or to a different, you
know, level of reevaluation,it's actually probably more on
(32:42):
that prevention bucket. Andthat's incredible that exists,
you know, and then there's otherobviously more in depth, you
know, and more serious kind oftreatments. And just depending
on where someone is, in so manydifferent levels of, you know,
their emotional health, theirspiritual health, all those
different kinds of things, thenit's worth doing that. And I
also want to say too, that evenin the alcohol free the New Age,
kind of alcohol free bucket,just reevaluating your alcohol
(33:05):
beliefs, I don't think isenough, like, I think after that
comes this huge personaldevelopment, that is our job to
kind of take on. For me, it waskind of like a given. And that's
what I would do. And sometimes Isee people not really leaning
into that as much, and they'restill kind of unhappy, because
maybe the alcohol is out of thepicture, but they didn't solve
the underlying, you know,challenges. So it's, our job is
(33:25):
to heal our job is to grow. Ourjob is to challenge old limiting
beliefs, no matter where theycome from, or in what realm they
are in our lives. And I think ifwe all just commit to that,
we're going to see such ahealthier sense of fulfillment
moving forward. And I reallyI think that's a really smart
way of saying it. And I thinkwhen we think of that spectrum,
(33:45):
too, it's like the common groundis not necessarily going to be
how each person heals or findtheir own way to healing. We do
like to be a little bitcreative. It's pretty hard to
not agree that normalizing nondrinking is helpful for a broad
range of people impacted byalcohol. Well that we can agree
on. Karolina, thank you so muchfor doing this. This was a
(34:09):
pleasure. I just love how muchthought and consideration you've
given to this issue and all thework that you're doing in this
space as well and all of thepeople that are benefiting. Tell
us what you're up to these dayswhere we can find you on the
internet.
Unknown (34:22):
I'm a big reader myself. So I love to get to know
people through a book. So I'dlove for you to check it out.
It's called euphoric ditchalcohol again, a happier, more
confident you. You can find iton Amazon just type in euphoric
or go to euphoric book.com. I'malso on euphoric af.com is my
main website and not only do Ihelp women reevaluate the
relationship with alcohol but Ilove what happens next. I love
(34:43):
helping them discover theirdeeper purpose and really go
after their dreams and so notonly do we have programs that
help you launch your business orwrite a book we also have a
certification that's helping newalcohol free coaches get
certified as mindset coachSuccess Coach NLP practitioner
and Alcohol Free Coach, our nextcohort starts next year. So I
also have retreats that I loveto run with alcohol free women.
(35:06):
Just a lot of fun stuff. You cansee it all at you fork f.com.
And I'm pretty active oninstagram@euphoric.af. And feel
free to shoot me a DM or aquestion. I'd love to hear from
you.
DeAnn Knighton (35:16):
I want to do one more little thing. I'm starting
this YouTube channel that isgoing to be when I talk to sober
people, I'm just going to askthem about their favorite
recovery jam. I'm going torecord them talking about why
they love it, why it inspiresthem. Can you tell us do you
have your best recovery jam? Andwhat is it about it that you
love?
Karolina Rzadkowals (35:32):
Absolutely.
So it's called Live In TheMoment by Portugal, the ma. And
it was a song that was superpivotal for me when I was taking
a break from alcohol like myfirst few months. And I remember
there's this line aboutsomething about Sunday morning.
And it's like a very happy song.
And they're just like Sundaymorning. And you know, when I
(35:53):
was drinking Sunday morningwasn't necessarily the best,
right? you'd wake up fromSaturday night and just be like,
Oh, I wanted to go to yoga, Idon't really feel that great,
whatever and now I was livingthis high. I was like I am
(36:20):
living at the peak of myemotional state. This feels so
good. Like, I'm so excited. Andthat line Sunday morning just
really resonated. Like this iswhat life could be like even
Monday morning could feel likethis. You know what I mean? Like
it was just so incredible. Andit's such an upbeat song, I'd
definitely recommend you guyscheck it out because I
absolutely loved it. And I didhave a playlist I remember
having a playlist of songs thatkind of were speaking to me
(36:43):
about not only why thislifestyle was amazing, but
really motivating me to want tosee how much better it gets. And
that was ultimately why Idecided to remain alcohol free.
I remember I even got to ajuncture where I was like, Oh,
should I drink again or not? Andbecause there was always
supposed to just be a break. Andthat was like the line of
questioning is like well youknow what a beer tastes like you
know what it feels like you knowhow you feel afterwards but
(37:05):
you've never seen what thistrajectory is going to take for
you. You've never seen whatyou're capable of this way so
why not find out and that got meso excited
DeAnn Knighton (37:34):
for more information, please visit our
website,soberpositiveworkplace.org. This
podcast is written Created andproduced by DeAnn Knighton.
Featuring music from thewickedly talented Katie Hare
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