February 27, 2025 • 43 mins
This episode features a heartfelt conversation with my mother, who shares her insights and experiences from nearly a century of life. She reflects on the importance of support systems, the healing journey of forgiveness, and maintaining balance in a world full of division.
• Celebrating a significant birthday milestone
• Emphasis on the role of family and friendships
• Growing up during World War II and living through adversity
• The significance of forgiveness in personal healing
• Spiritual disciplines as a source of strength
• Observations on societal issues and the importance of understanding
• Personal decisions shaped by life experiences
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Piet Van Waarde (00:01):
I don't think you had nothing to do with it.
Kitty Kok (00:04):
Well, I try to live healthy, you know.
But the way your skin looks,and I'm not somebody who will
put all kinds of creams on andall that, no, just always for
(00:24):
the El.
Piet Van Waarde (00:24):
Natural.
Kitty Kok (00:26):
Yeah, I use one specific ointment that I've used
for 30 years.
Piet Van Waarde (00:36):
Well, it's working.
Kitty Kok (00:37):
It's working, I guess .
Good ad for oil of Olie thereyou go.
Piet Van Waarde (00:43):
That's what they call product placement, I
know Well, okay, here we go.
Well, welcome to anotherepisode of Sidewalk
(01:06):
Conversations.
We're so glad that you havejoined us and you are in for a
real treat.
I know I say that every time,but you are in for a really
great interview today with mymom.
She was actually the firstinterview that I did with this
venture back four or five yearsago now, and she's been a guest
(01:26):
several times in the podcast.
We haven't been able to discernexactly how many times.
She's just such a regular andpopular guest.
We just can't even keepbringing her back as long as
she's going to come.
So, before we get into thatconversation, I do want to thank
our sponsors.
Today, I want to honor all ofmy Patreon members.
So we have a Patreon supportpage where people can make
(01:49):
contributions on a monthly basisto the activity of our work
here and many other projectsthat we have going on, and so,
for as little as $20 a month,you can be a part of the Patreon
page, and that investment willcontinue to support the work
that we're doing, and so I wantto say a big shout out to our
(02:10):
Patreon support team.
So thanks, guys, for all theways in which you make this
possible.
Kitty Kok (02:16):
So now, mom thanks for being here.
Piet Van Waarde (02:22):
It's so good to have you.
You came into town yesterday.
I know you like to kind of havea little bit of a break before
you jump into things, but no,your son said I need you on the
podcast.
Kitty Kok (02:34):
Would you please come ?
No rest for the weary.
Piet Van Waarde (02:37):
No, that's right.
That's right, but you are doingwell, you're healthy.
In fact, we were talking beforewe got on the air that you're
going to be celebrating your90th birthday this year.
Kitty Kok (02:51):
Yes.
Piet Van Waarde (02:53):
And if I tell them that and they see your
picture nobody believes me.
And you're so sharp and stillmaking contributions and doing
things with family and travelingall around the country.
So good for you, In fact.
I mean that's the firstquestion.
I want to see if there arethings that you look at in terms
(03:13):
of your life and maybe somelife hacks, things that may have
contributed to the fact thatyou are healthy and whole and
able to talk about good thingsat this age.
Kitty Kok (03:27):
Yeah, I don't know if I would call them life hacks,
but I know that I like tosurround myself with people whom
I love and who love me, who aresupportive, who are encouraging
(03:50):
, just live in a lifestyle thatis more up than down.
Yeah, so that's one of thethings that have helped me and,
I think, keep my interest goingin studying or finding out
(04:14):
things or finding out aboutpeople.
I don't have to have a lot offriends.
It seems to be the thingnowadays.
How many?
Piet Van Waarde (04:32):
Friends on your Facebook page, on your Facebook
.
Kitty Kok (04:35):
And how many likes do you get.
No, I'm not interested in that,but I do like to nurture the
friendships that I have.
So I will invest time andenergy in those people and I try
(04:55):
to be interested in their livesand what makes them tick, and
that takes energy in itself butit enriches my life.
Piet Van Waarde (05:08):
Yeah, I'll bet.
Kitty Kok (05:10):
And yeah, eat healthy .
I try to.
Piet Van Waarde (05:16):
Yeah, I've been noticing.
You have your veggies and yourfruit and have your consistent
healthy breakfast every morning,a little salad at lunch.
All that good stuff.
Kitty Kok (05:27):
Yeah, don't try to go crazy, but yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (05:35):
God's been good .
Kitty Kok (05:36):
The Lord, just keep in touch all the time with Him.
Piet Van Waarde (05:41):
Yeah.
Kitty Kok (05:42):
Start your day with Him, end your day with him.
End your day with him and justhe's my sustaining grace.
Piet Van Waarde (05:55):
So, yes, you have been an example.
We're going to talk more aboutthat over the interview, but you
have been an example ofconsistency with your spiritual
disciplines, your prayer, yourjournaling, all of that.
So I think that's first of all.
(06:15):
It's just been very inspiringto me, but it's also, I'm sure,
part of what has helped you livea long and healthy, fruitful
life.
For those who may not know, I'mjust going to say that my mom
and my sister bought a hometogether, so you live.
They've created this nicelittle in-law suite downstairs
(06:37):
where you have your own kitchen,living space, study area,
bedroom, of course, and it'sbeautiful.
It looks right out on PikesPeak, but you also then have the
opportunity to engage with thefamily.
So there are still kids at homeand you get a chance to be a
part of that whole familyscenario.
So I'm sure that's part ofwhat's kind of helped you too
(06:59):
right, yeah, that's part of mylove environment.
Yeah, part of my loveenvironment.
Kitty Kok (07:05):
Yeah, I don't live with them, but I don't live
alone.
I think, there's a bigdifference, even though I am
alone a lot because they're inschool.
My daughter is studying for hermaster's, so she doesn't have
(07:28):
time to run around, but I havethat knowledge there are people
that love me and if there wouldbe anything that I would need
that was urgent, they will doanything.
So that makes a big difference.
(07:51):
And to see the children grow upI know the one, the youngest,
from the time she was a newbornand now she's going to be 12
this month and now she's goingto be 12 this month so to see
(08:11):
them grow up and go throughtheir highs and lows and sports
activities and all that thatkeeps me engaged in life.
Piet Van Waarde (08:19):
Yeah, and then you have your little art
projects that you do with them.
Kitty Kok (08:23):
Yeah, we have paint projects that we do and, yeah,
it's really good for me to stayyoung, stay engaged, and often I
have a meal with them upstairs.
Piet Van Waarde (08:43):
Yeah, that's great.
Now, for those who I know youwere a little worried about this
.
When we were talking about, youknow the things we would talk
about.
You said, well, we've heard mystory and all that.
But there are probably peoplewho have joined us since the
last time you did a podcast andmay not know that much about
(09:06):
your own personal story.
I think it's quite inspiring.
So why don't you just kind ofgive us a 30,000 foot view of
your life story and some of thekey points and memories of the
life that you have lived?
Kitty Kok (09:20):
Yeah, I have lived a different life than most people,
and my parents when they weremarried one day after they were
married they were Dutch livingin Holland, safe environment had
(09:43):
decided to go to Indonesia, andIndonesia was a Dutch colony at
the time.
So their honeymoon was theirboat trip to Indonesia and the
reason they went there is kindof a missionary project.
They had heard through themission board of their church
(10:05):
that there was a great need forteachers in Indonesia.
So they decided to raiseteachers and it was not an easy
transition.
Here you go from a country likethe Netherlands to a tropical
(10:28):
country right on the equator andit was hot and humid and
totally different.
But they started a new lifethere.
They had five children.
All five of us were born inIndonesia, in different cities,
(10:51):
on different islands.
But the unfortunate thing wasthat they were there also at the
wrong time and after Japan hadthrown their bombs on Pearl
Harbor they invaded a large partof China and the Philippines
(11:19):
and Indonesia, Indonesia.
And long story short, we allwind up in concentration camps
and my dad was taken prisoner ofwar and my brothers eventually
were put in boys camps and mymom and the three younger kids
(11:44):
were put in camps for women andchildren, and that was an
extremely rough time, lackingall kinds of care physical
(12:09):
doctor's care.
There were some doctors in ourcamp, but of course the
conditions were very very poor.
We suffered from all kinds ofdiseases like malaria and
diphthery, dysentery andberiberi, and yeah, it was
(12:32):
horrible.
So at the end of the war, andhow old were you during that?
I was probably from about 8 to11.
Piet Van Waarde (12:42):
Okay, I can't imagine.
Kitty Kok (12:44):
Yeah, okay, I can't imagine.
Yeah, yeah.
And I remember when you guyswere getting to that age, I was
thinking wow, yeah, you know, mybrothers were put in boys'
camps at that age and we were in.
Yeah, it was just totallydifferent growing up.
(13:06):
But eventually we were freedand we moved back to the
Netherlands for a few years.
My dad had to do some morestudies there, but then we had
to go back to Indonesia, which Ididn't like at all no.
(13:28):
I don't know about you.
And there was still a lot offighting going on, but this time
between the Dutch and theIndonesian people.
They were fighting for theirindependence Independence, yeah,
but we lived there until 54 inJakarta and in Bandung, and then
(13:57):
we returned to the Netherlands.
I had one more year of study togo and my brothers had gone
earlier to the Netherlands toget some better education for
them.
All the schools we went tooutside of the war were Dutch,
(14:18):
so we lived in a totally, reallyDutch culture.
Piet Van Waarde (14:24):
Yeah.
Kitty Kok (14:25):
We celebrated the Dutch.
Piet Van Waarde (14:27):
Holidays, yeah.
Kitty Kok (14:28):
And kept the traditions alive Sinterklaas,
all those things but I don't.
I am glad we had that time inIndonesia because of the totally
(14:51):
different culture, differentpeople, and I really appreciate
their art, their way of living,their industriousness and the
beautiful mountainsides.
We went to Bali after the war.
(15:14):
During one of our vacations wetraveled the whole island and,
last but not least, I met myvery Dutch husband.
He was tall, blue-eyed andhandsome and he was working for
(15:37):
a Philips company and installingx-ray machinery, and I met him
there and so you know you neverwould have met him if he didn't
go back.
Piet Van Waarde (15:55):
I know.
Kitty Kok (15:56):
And the rest is history, because we went back to
the Netherlands and he followeda year later, going back, and
we got married in theNetherlands and had a cute
little boys there, before weemigrated to the United States
(16:19):
so you, just to track it, youwent from the Netherlands to
Indonesia POW camp, back toNetherlands, back to Indonesia
POW camp, back to Netherlands,back to Indonesia, back to the
Netherlands, then to the US.
Yes.
Piet Van Waarde (16:34):
Wow.
Yeah so that's not exactly yourtypical upbringing.
Now, later in life, you had todeal with some of the memories
of that early stage and you knowwe've talked about this before
so we don't have to get into thesame detail.
I can link the story here inthis story for previous
(16:57):
interviews.
But there was something aboutthe forgiveness process that's
kind of become a life messagefor you and I wondered if you
could just kind of give us alittle thumbnail sketch of that
message and why that was soimportant in terms of your own
healing.
Kitty Kok (17:19):
Yeah, I had stuffed so much Because if people don't
understand what you went throughand they say, oh, well, we had
a bad, you know then you decideokay, I better shut up.
(17:41):
I better not say anything.
So I started doing that.
With everything I would stuffmy feelings, whether something
really sad happens, like a deathin the family or whatever.
I would just try to deal withit emotionally.
(18:02):
You can't do that too long.
At some point you implode, andthat happened to me and I went
into deep, deep depressions andI learned while in treatment so
many things that were importantthat you have to talk about what
(18:30):
goes on in your life don't keepit to yourself good, bad and
ugly and to surround yourselfwith people that are supportive
and prayers, so that you havesome place to put it pray for me
because, and to live withgratitude, not for everything,
(18:58):
but in everything, made to me ahuge difference.
How could I be grateful forthose years?
But when I learned to begrateful in those years, that
was important.
And then I learned the big jobof forgiveness and how important
(19:23):
it is to not grumble aboutthings inside of you but to go
immediately into forgivenessmode and to bring it before the
Lord and to either verbally tellthe person I forgive you or do
(19:54):
it in prayer Forgiveness of self, which might be one of the
hardest things To confess.
Yeah, I totally messed up, andconfess it openly and not only
ask for forgiveness, but forgiveyourself.
(20:16):
We like to keep on hammeringabout mistakes we made in life
and how we messed up, and sothat came for me a real message
in my life.
And what is forgiveness?
Piet Van Waarde (20:35):
Yeah, a lot of confusion about that.
Kitty Kok (20:37):
Yes, it's not doesn't always give a good feeling.
It's not wiping out whathappened.
It's not wiping out whathappened.
It's not that you have to befriends again with the person.
Sometimes people just aren't tobe trusted, but you can still
(21:03):
forgive them, and the biggie isforgiveness of your enemies.
How could I?
I couldn't talk to them anymore, and Sonai, which was the very
cruel commandant of our latestcamp, had been executed for the
crimes he had committed to womenand children.
Piet Van Waarde (21:26):
Wow.
Kitty Kok (21:27):
So he was gone and that happened on December 7, his
execution the same day,December 7, that Pearl Harbor
was attacked.
Yeah, wow, and.
But I decided to pray for maybethere was some family left of
(21:51):
his and that they would notfollow in the same footsteps and
that by some miracle they wouldcome to know Jesus.
And so I found myself kind of away to deal with it.
(22:12):
But forgiveness of your enemy,or forgiveness of betrayal
somebody has betrayed you, orforgiveness in a marriage when
you know somebody has beenunfaithful, or forgiveness
(22:36):
against your abuser doesn'talways have to be in a war
situation.
Right right, right.
So there are a number of anynumber of occasions that people
are really suffering becauseit's so hard to forgive yeah,
(22:56):
and it is something you may haveto do over and over again, when
you think you have forgiven andthen you find out that it's
still hurting my heart yeah howthen you start again?
Piet Van Waarde (23:15):
yeah, and what do you do?
You have a little process thatyou walk through.
Like I know from you, knowother conversations we've had,
there's a process you walkthrough, particularly with Sonai
, in forgiving.
But when you think about whatit means to really forgive, is
(23:35):
there some steps that you findhelpful to walk through?
Kitty Kok (23:41):
Well, I base it in prayer.
I know I've got to do this.
Bathe it in prayer.
I know I've got to do this.
And I had a teacher the firstyear back after the war.
This was in that in-betweentime and I was in fifth grade
(24:02):
and I was bullied by her.
Piet Van Waarde (24:07):
She for some reason hated me.
Kitty Kok (24:09):
And then I, years later, I came to the realization
.
Did I ever forgive her?
Whenever I think about her, I'mpuzzled at how mean she was,
and why did I earn that kind oftreatment?
(24:33):
What did I do to her?
But I decided well, lord, pleasegive me the strength to forgive
her, to set myself free fromwhat she did to me, so that's
(24:53):
where I usually start and voiceit.
I forgive her that fifth gradeteacher yeah, I forgive her for
putting me down for and thenname the things that you forgive
(25:14):
them for and lift it up to the.
Lord and say may she turn itall for good, May she change
somehow.
Piet Van Waarde (25:23):
But yeah, so you acknowledge it, you name it
and then you let it go.
And you do that as often as youneed to do it.
Kitty Kok (25:33):
Yeah, exactly, but you have to acknowledge it and
you have to be honest inidentifying what you forgive the
person for what you forgive theperson for, because sometimes
it has to be the differentthings that they did wrong, or
(25:54):
sometimes you can just say okayfor the person he or she was.
I forgive them but acknowledgedon't smooth it over.
Piet Van Waarde (26:08):
Well, you've been a real example to me in
that you know when we've talkedand even growing up, where you
would, you know, talk to us kidsabout not stuffing your
emotions, talking things out,forgiving one another when
you've been wronged, and so youtook that really horrible thing
(26:34):
that happened to you, processedit and then passed on those
principles to your kids and webenefited from your example and
your teaching about that.
So thank you for faithfullyprocessing through.
You're welcome.
It was not easy to do.
All right, well, shifting thefocus a little bit.
So, now that you're at thisstage of your life, you know, I
(26:57):
think a lot of people kind ofcome to the latter years of
their life and and they gainsome perspective over the over
time.
And I'm just curious, as youlook back on the things that are
important to you now, what doyou look back and say, man, I'm
so glad I did this, this andthis, because that really added
(27:22):
to the quality of my life.
Kitty Kok (27:27):
Well, there were a few things I remember.
I think it all comes down todecisions you make, mm-hmm.
I know people, when they becomewidows all of a sudden, or guys
(27:58):
widowers, decide to changetheir life immediately.
I can't live without the personor whatever, and I decided very
(28:23):
consciously, don't make anyhasty decisions.
I need to know what it is liketo live without my husband, and
we had been together 54 years,not counting the years we knew
each other before that, and thenall of a sudden in one day he
(28:45):
left for sailing and never cameback.
That was an amazing shock and Iknew I had to live that out.
I got tremendous support fromthe family, but at some point
(29:05):
they need to go home and theyhave their own lives.
So I decided to stay where I was.
I did some travel to Colorado,especially during hurricane
seasons.
I didn't want to go throughthat again, saw the kids, but
(29:29):
basically continued living inour condominium.
And I did that for four years.
And then one time I wasstanding on my balcony we had
beautiful views of theintercoastal river and I thought
(29:58):
I have five children all livingin different stages.
Piet Van Waarde (30:02):
What am I doing here alone?
And I do remember we had afriendly family competition to
try and talk you into livingwith or close by any one of us.
Kitty Kok (30:15):
And you chose.
Piet Van Waarde (30:16):
Colorado.
Kitty Kok (30:17):
I did.
But what I did before that was,I went to every state where
they lived and checked outliving possibilities.
You know where would I live andwhat would my environment be
like, and the nice thing wasthey all wanted me to live close
(30:40):
to them, but I finally decidedto live with Elsa my only
daughter to live with Elsa, myonly daughter and ultimately
that was the best decisionbecause they were looking for a
(31:02):
home.
I was looking for a place tolive and we found a brand new
house with an unfinished walkoutbasement that I designed with
the help of an architect to makeinto an apartment for myself.
And it worked out perfectly.
Piet Van Waarde (31:27):
Yeah, we all agree that was really kind of a
divine intervention.
Kitty Kok (31:31):
God set that up.
It was a good, good choice.
Piet Van Waarde (31:36):
And as long as you keep coming to see us, we
can live with that reality.
Kitty Kok (31:39):
I can still travel.
Maybe that's why the Lordgives's your day going to look
like.
Well, I feel like doing nothingtoday.
(32:02):
I mean you have the freedom nowto do that and my driving has
gotten a little more limited, sothat is still something I miss.
Just get in the car and go, butyou have to adjust.
(32:25):
Yeah, so yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (32:29):
Don't complain about it.
Decisions, decisions, complainabout it.
Kitty Kok (32:32):
Decisions, decisions I love that.
Piet Van Waarde (32:35):
So now, when you look back, I know like when
you come to Austin, you have acouple of family members and you
have an elder at a church, youhave a world traveler.
(32:56):
I mean, you have very good,well-adjusted kids, except for
the oldest.
He's still a bit of a problemnow and again.
But I'm sure people ask youlike how did that happen?
What was the secret sauce ofcreating an environment at home
which produced such good kids?
(33:20):
And do you have an answer Likewhat do you typically tell?
Kitty Kok (33:23):
people about that.
Well, Dad and I did our best toraise them in ways that agreed
with our personal ideas on howto grow people, and I was very
(33:47):
intent on taking you to churchteaching you to pray.
I remember at a young age Iwould ask you to read the Bible
after dinner or to say theprayer after dinner, and if we
(34:10):
had company they would talkabout that for weeks.
That kid, he prayed such abeautiful prayer.
So you were molded really earlyon.
But I always say I did what Icould, their father did what he
(34:35):
could, but in the end I reallystrongly feel that God took over
and took over a few kidsbecause it was not all easy
going Perfect kids not at all.
Few kids, because it was notall easy going perfect kids not
at all.
They went their own way andthey got involved in all kinds
(34:58):
of stuff.
But I think God or I know Godsaid uh, uh, I need you here.
I need you there, I havethoughts and plans for you.
Piet Van Waarde (35:12):
Yeah, yes, yeah , I totally see that, and I
think that that's the beauty ofparenting because you know you
can do quite a bit to movepeople towards a direction, and,
whether it's by your ownexample or the things that you
teach, or the opportunities thatyou teach or the opportunities
that you extend, you set yourkids up and gave them a lot of
(35:39):
yeah guidance, direction,opportunity to discover some
things about the Lord and aboutthemselves.
And then, really, it is about arelease of like okay, okay, lord
, now that they're in your hands, and do do what you do, and he
certainly did and the communitywas important.
Kitty Kok (35:59):
You had a good community around you yeah, yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (36:04):
So, yeah, you did a good job.
So did dad, yeah, um, now Iwant to ask one last question.
You know, right now there's alot going on in the world that,
um, you know, on one hand youcould say, man, there's so many
good things, so manyopportunities, so many things to
(36:25):
be grateful for, uh.
But then there's also thingsthat you know become points of
concern.
And I'm just curious, from yourperspective, with your maturity
and wisdom, what are the thingsthat you look at the world and
you say I'm excited about that,and then where are the places
where you go?
Boy, I really find myself beingconcerned about that direction
(36:49):
or that tendency in the culture.
Kitty Kok (36:53):
I think it is keeping an eye on what is good, what's
happening that's good and what'shappening that's evil, and make
that distinction.
What saddens me is that thereis so much division in this
(37:21):
country, and that concerns meBecause I can see that that can
become very, very explosive Ifwe could bring people together
and say let's work together forthe good that's happening and
(37:42):
let's be honest, not because youdon't like the politics of that
person so you're going to hatewhatever that person does, but
be honest and look at it and saywhat's good about it and what's
bad about it.
And that should be from allsides.
(38:04):
Yeah right and unfortunatelythat's very hard.
We are very polarized in thiscountry and I still have hope
for better things and bettertimes and feel positive.
(38:26):
But I think we have to doeverything to keep things in
balance.
Piet Van Waarde (38:35):
You know, don't say that's all bad and black
and horrible, but be honest andtry to see the good things do
you have a practice yourself tokind of keep you even keeled,
because you know you turn on thenews or you listen to a
(38:58):
podcaster or an influencer andeverybody seems very exaggerated
in their response, you know,and so it's hard to kind of say
I'm going to like what you weresuggesting.
I want to be honest aboutwhat's happening.
Well, how do I even know what'shappening based on all the
(39:19):
reports out there?
What do I know to be true?
So is there something that youdo to kind of help provide the
perspective?
Kitty Kok (39:28):
Look at different sides.
You know, just not one side,but listen to the other side.
I think that's really importantto listen.
Can I follow that?
Can I see the good in that?
I am in it?
I sometimes mock myself a newsjunkie that I want to know
(39:52):
what's going on, but I'm alsokind of middle of the road.
I don't take sides very easily,so I try to listen to everybody,
whether it's upstairs in anargument between the kids or the
(40:17):
big news in the world.
What could be good about thisand what do I really feel is
totally wrong?
So, I think listening is animportant part of deciding where
you stand and what you canreally get excited about.
(40:38):
If you really know what's goingon and sometimes you just don't
.
Sometimes it's above my headyou guys figure it out, I don't
know.
Piet Van Waarde (40:49):
Well, and I think, too, that one of the
things I find myself thinking alot about these days is not just
and I do do what you suggestedlisten to both sides, try and
discern what feels right.
What seems right, lord, give mea perspective on this.
And then there's another partthat I think we want to be very
(41:10):
circumspect on how we talk aboutone another.
Kitty Kok (41:13):
Yes.
Piet Van Waarde (41:14):
So you know, occasionally I'll venture a
cultural or political opinion onsocial media and I probably
spend an hour thinking throughthat post like how could it be
misinterpreted?
How can I make sure that I'mbeing balanced and humble and
(41:35):
not pretending I know it all?
And Carol sometimes is like whyare you spending so much?
But I think it's so importantto work at saying things in a
way that is respectful for allsides, even if you don't agree
with another perspective, towork hard at communicating your
(41:58):
position well, but in thecontext of hey, I'm going to
regard your thoughts and yourperspective with equal value.
I may not agree with it, butI'm going to try and be as
respectful as possible and Ithink if you can listen and you
can communicate with care andcompassion, maybe that's how we
come together.
Yeah, at the end of the day.
Kitty Kok (42:19):
Yeah, I think it's good to share out of your own
experience, what I haveexperienced, instead of telling
the person.
This is the way this is yeah,right, but.
I experience prayer as veryhelpful.
(42:40):
I experience trust is soimportant If I can't trust the
person you know where are youleft.
Yeah, the person you know whereare you left.
Piet Van Waarde (42:50):
Yeah.
Kitty Kok (42:51):
So if I try to express my own experience with
something, nobody can fault mefor that Sure.
This is what I experienced.
Piet Van Waarde (43:05):
Yeah, yeah yeah .
Well, mom, you did a great job.
Once again, thank you forjoining me.
I appreciate your willingness.
Kitty Kok (43:13):
I loved every minute of it.
I hope the people out there dotoo.
Piet Van Waarde (43:20):
I'm sure they will, and so thank you for
joining us.
I'm so grateful for yourwillingness to join us and
engage in these conversationswith us.
You're always free to commentbelow and share as you feel like
there might be some people whowould use some of the
information we talked abouttoday and then see you next time
.
Thanks for joining us.
I don't think you had nothing to do with it.
Kitty Kok (00:04):
Well, I try to live healthy, you know.
But the way your skin looks,and I'm not somebody who will
put all kinds of creams on andall that, no, just always for
(00:24):
the El.
Piet Van Waarde (00:24):
Natural.
Kitty Kok (00:26):
Yeah, I use one specific ointment that I've used
for 30 years.
Piet Van Waarde (00:36):
Well, it's working.
Kitty Kok (00:37):
It's working, I guess .
Good ad for oil of Olie thereyou go.
Piet Van Waarde (00:43):
That's what they call product placement, I
know Well, okay, here we go.
Well, welcome to anotherepisode of Sidewalk
(01:06):
Conversations.
We're so glad that you havejoined us and you are in for a
real treat.
I know I say that every time,but you are in for a really
great interview today with mymom.
She was actually the firstinterview that I did with this
venture back four or five yearsago now, and she's been a guest
(01:26):
several times in the podcast.
We haven't been able to discernexactly how many times.
She's just such a regular andpopular guest.
We just can't even keepbringing her back as long as
she's going to come.
So, before we get into thatconversation, I do want to thank
our sponsors.
Today, I want to honor all ofmy Patreon members.
So we have a Patreon supportpage where people can make
(01:49):
contributions on a monthly basisto the activity of our work
here and many other projectsthat we have going on, and so,
for as little as $20 a month,you can be a part of the Patreon
page, and that investment willcontinue to support the work
that we're doing, and so I wantto say a big shout out to our
(02:10):
Patreon support team.
So thanks, guys, for all theways in which you make this
possible.
Kitty Kok (02:16):
So now, mom thanks for being here.
Piet Van Waarde (02:22):
It's so good to have you.
You came into town yesterday.
I know you like to kind of havea little bit of a break before
you jump into things, but no,your son said I need you on the
podcast.
Kitty Kok (02:34):
Would you please come ?
No rest for the weary.
Piet Van Waarde (02:37):
No, that's right.
That's right, but you are doingwell, you're healthy.
In fact, we were talking beforewe got on the air that you're
going to be celebrating your90th birthday this year.
Kitty Kok (02:51):
Yes.
Piet Van Waarde (02:53):
And if I tell them that and they see your
picture nobody believes me.
And you're so sharp and stillmaking contributions and doing
things with family and travelingall around the country.
So good for you, In fact.
I mean that's the firstquestion.
I want to see if there arethings that you look at in terms
(03:13):
of your life and maybe somelife hacks, things that may have
contributed to the fact thatyou are healthy and whole and
able to talk about good thingsat this age.
Kitty Kok (03:27):
Yeah, I don't know if I would call them life hacks,
but I know that I like tosurround myself with people whom
I love and who love me, who aresupportive, who are encouraging
(03:50):
, just live in a lifestyle thatis more up than down.
Yeah, so that's one of thethings that have helped me and,
I think, keep my interest goingin studying or finding out
(04:14):
things or finding out aboutpeople.
I don't have to have a lot offriends.
It seems to be the thingnowadays.
How many?
Piet Van Waarde (04:32):
Friends on your Facebook page, on your Facebook
.
Kitty Kok (04:35):
And how many likes do you get.
No, I'm not interested in that,but I do like to nurture the
friendships that I have.
So I will invest time andenergy in those people and I try
(04:55):
to be interested in their livesand what makes them tick, and
that takes energy in itself butit enriches my life.
Piet Van Waarde (05:08):
Yeah, I'll bet.
Kitty Kok (05:10):
And yeah, eat healthy .
I try to.
Piet Van Waarde (05:16):
Yeah, I've been noticing.
You have your veggies and yourfruit and have your consistent
healthy breakfast every morning,a little salad at lunch.
All that good stuff.
Kitty Kok (05:27):
Yeah, don't try to go crazy, but yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (05:35):
God's been good .
Kitty Kok (05:36):
The Lord, just keep in touch all the time with Him.
Piet Van Waarde (05:41):
Yeah.
Kitty Kok (05:42):
Start your day with Him, end your day with him.
End your day with him and justhe's my sustaining grace.
Piet Van Waarde (05:55):
So, yes, you have been an example.
We're going to talk more aboutthat over the interview, but you
have been an example ofconsistency with your spiritual
disciplines, your prayer, yourjournaling, all of that.
So I think that's first of all.
(06:15):
It's just been very inspiringto me, but it's also, I'm sure,
part of what has helped you livea long and healthy, fruitful
life.
For those who may not know, I'mjust going to say that my mom
and my sister bought a hometogether, so you live.
They've created this nicelittle in-law suite downstairs
(06:37):
where you have your own kitchen,living space, study area,
bedroom, of course, and it'sbeautiful.
It looks right out on PikesPeak, but you also then have the
opportunity to engage with thefamily.
So there are still kids at homeand you get a chance to be a
part of that whole familyscenario.
So I'm sure that's part ofwhat's kind of helped you too
(06:59):
right, yeah, that's part of mylove environment.
Yeah, part of my loveenvironment.
Kitty Kok (07:05):
Yeah, I don't live with them, but I don't live
alone.
I think, there's a bigdifference, even though I am
alone a lot because they're inschool.
My daughter is studying for hermaster's, so she doesn't have
(07:28):
time to run around, but I havethat knowledge there are people
that love me and if there wouldbe anything that I would need
that was urgent, they will doanything.
So that makes a big difference.
(07:51):
And to see the children grow upI know the one, the youngest,
from the time she was a newbornand now she's going to be 12
this month and now she's goingto be 12 this month so to see
(08:11):
them grow up and go throughtheir highs and lows and sports
activities and all that thatkeeps me engaged in life.
Piet Van Waarde (08:19):
Yeah, and then you have your little art
projects that you do with them.
Kitty Kok (08:23):
Yeah, we have paint projects that we do and, yeah,
it's really good for me to stayyoung, stay engaged, and often I
have a meal with them upstairs.
Piet Van Waarde (08:43):
Yeah, that's great.
Now, for those who I know youwere a little worried about this
.
When we were talking about, youknow the things we would talk
about.
You said, well, we've heard mystory and all that.
But there are probably peoplewho have joined us since the
last time you did a podcast andmay not know that much about
(09:06):
your own personal story.
I think it's quite inspiring.
So why don't you just kind ofgive us a 30,000 foot view of
your life story and some of thekey points and memories of the
life that you have lived?
Kitty Kok (09:20):
Yeah, I have lived a different life than most people,
and my parents when they weremarried one day after they were
married they were Dutch livingin Holland, safe environment had
(09:43):
decided to go to Indonesia, andIndonesia was a Dutch colony at
the time.
So their honeymoon was theirboat trip to Indonesia and the
reason they went there is kindof a missionary project.
They had heard through themission board of their church
(10:05):
that there was a great need forteachers in Indonesia.
So they decided to raiseteachers and it was not an easy
transition.
Here you go from a country likethe Netherlands to a tropical
(10:28):
country right on the equator andit was hot and humid and
totally different.
But they started a new lifethere.
They had five children.
All five of us were born inIndonesia, in different cities,
(10:51):
on different islands.
But the unfortunate thing wasthat they were there also at the
wrong time and after Japan hadthrown their bombs on Pearl
Harbor they invaded a large partof China and the Philippines
(11:19):
and Indonesia, Indonesia.
And long story short, we allwind up in concentration camps
and my dad was taken prisoner ofwar and my brothers eventually
were put in boys camps and mymom and the three younger kids
(11:44):
were put in camps for women andchildren, and that was an
extremely rough time, lackingall kinds of care physical
(12:09):
doctor's care.
There were some doctors in ourcamp, but of course the
conditions were very very poor.
We suffered from all kinds ofdiseases like malaria and
diphthery, dysentery andberiberi, and yeah, it was
(12:32):
horrible.
So at the end of the war, andhow old were you during that?
I was probably from about 8 to11.
Piet Van Waarde (12:42):
Okay, I can't imagine.
Kitty Kok (12:44):
Yeah, okay, I can't imagine.
Yeah, yeah.
And I remember when you guyswere getting to that age, I was
thinking wow, yeah, you know, mybrothers were put in boys'
camps at that age and we were in.
Yeah, it was just totallydifferent growing up.
(13:06):
But eventually we were freedand we moved back to the
Netherlands for a few years.
My dad had to do some morestudies there, but then we had
to go back to Indonesia, which Ididn't like at all no.
(13:28):
I don't know about you.
And there was still a lot offighting going on, but this time
between the Dutch and theIndonesian people.
They were fighting for theirindependence Independence, yeah,
but we lived there until 54 inJakarta and in Bandung, and then
(13:57):
we returned to the Netherlands.
I had one more year of study togo and my brothers had gone
earlier to the Netherlands toget some better education for
them.
All the schools we went tooutside of the war were Dutch,
(14:18):
so we lived in a totally, reallyDutch culture.
Piet Van Waarde (14:24):
Yeah.
Kitty Kok (14:25):
We celebrated the Dutch.
Piet Van Waarde (14:27):
Holidays, yeah.
Kitty Kok (14:28):
And kept the traditions alive Sinterklaas,
all those things but I don't.
I am glad we had that time inIndonesia because of the totally
(14:51):
different culture, differentpeople, and I really appreciate
their art, their way of living,their industriousness and the
beautiful mountainsides.
We went to Bali after the war.
(15:14):
During one of our vacations wetraveled the whole island and,
last but not least, I met myvery Dutch husband.
He was tall, blue-eyed andhandsome and he was working for
(15:37):
a Philips company and installingx-ray machinery, and I met him
there and so you know you neverwould have met him if he didn't
go back.
Piet Van Waarde (15:55):
I know.
Kitty Kok (15:56):
And the rest is history, because we went back to
the Netherlands and he followeda year later, going back, and
we got married in theNetherlands and had a cute
little boys there, before weemigrated to the United States
(16:19):
so you, just to track it, youwent from the Netherlands to
Indonesia POW camp, back toNetherlands, back to Indonesia
POW camp, back to Netherlands,back to Indonesia, back to the
Netherlands, then to the US.
Yes.
Piet Van Waarde (16:34):
Wow.
Yeah so that's not exactly yourtypical upbringing.
Now, later in life, you had todeal with some of the memories
of that early stage and you knowwe've talked about this before
so we don't have to get into thesame detail.
I can link the story here inthis story for previous
(16:57):
interviews.
But there was something aboutthe forgiveness process that's
kind of become a life messagefor you and I wondered if you
could just kind of give us alittle thumbnail sketch of that
message and why that was soimportant in terms of your own
healing.
Kitty Kok (17:19):
Yeah, I had stuffed so much Because if people don't
understand what you went throughand they say, oh, well, we had
a bad, you know then you decideokay, I better shut up.
(17:41):
I better not say anything.
So I started doing that.
With everything I would stuffmy feelings, whether something
really sad happens, like a deathin the family or whatever.
I would just try to deal withit emotionally.
(18:02):
You can't do that too long.
At some point you implode, andthat happened to me and I went
into deep, deep depressions andI learned while in treatment so
many things that were importantthat you have to talk about what
(18:30):
goes on in your life don't keepit to yourself good, bad and
ugly and to surround yourselfwith people that are supportive
and prayers, so that you havesome place to put it pray for me
because, and to live withgratitude, not for everything,
(18:58):
but in everything, made to me ahuge difference.
How could I be grateful forthose years?
But when I learned to begrateful in those years, that
was important.
And then I learned the big jobof forgiveness and how important
(19:23):
it is to not grumble aboutthings inside of you but to go
immediately into forgivenessmode and to bring it before the
Lord and to either verbally tellthe person I forgive you or do
(19:54):
it in prayer Forgiveness of self, which might be one of the
hardest things To confess.
Yeah, I totally messed up, andconfess it openly and not only
ask for forgiveness, but forgiveyourself.
(20:16):
We like to keep on hammeringabout mistakes we made in life
and how we messed up, and sothat came for me a real message
in my life.
And what is forgiveness?
Piet Van Waarde (20:35):
Yeah, a lot of confusion about that.
Kitty Kok (20:37):
Yes, it's not doesn't always give a good feeling.
It's not wiping out whathappened.
It's not wiping out whathappened.
It's not that you have to befriends again with the person.
Sometimes people just aren't tobe trusted, but you can still
(21:03):
forgive them, and the biggie isforgiveness of your enemies.
How could I?
I couldn't talk to them anymore, and Sonai, which was the very
cruel commandant of our latestcamp, had been executed for the
crimes he had committed to womenand children.
Piet Van Waarde (21:26):
Wow.
Kitty Kok (21:27):
So he was gone and that happened on December 7, his
execution the same day,December 7, that Pearl Harbor
was attacked.
Yeah, wow, and.
But I decided to pray for maybethere was some family left of
(21:51):
his and that they would notfollow in the same footsteps and
that by some miracle they wouldcome to know Jesus.
And so I found myself kind of away to deal with it.
(22:12):
But forgiveness of your enemy,or forgiveness of betrayal
somebody has betrayed you, orforgiveness in a marriage when
you know somebody has beenunfaithful, or forgiveness
(22:36):
against your abuser doesn'talways have to be in a war
situation.
Right right, right.
So there are a number of anynumber of occasions that people
are really suffering becauseit's so hard to forgive yeah,
(22:56):
and it is something you may haveto do over and over again, when
you think you have forgiven andthen you find out that it's
still hurting my heart yeah howthen you start again?
Piet Van Waarde (23:15):
yeah, and what do you do?
You have a little process thatyou walk through.
Like I know from you, knowother conversations we've had,
there's a process you walkthrough, particularly with Sonai
, in forgiving.
But when you think about whatit means to really forgive, is
(23:35):
there some steps that you findhelpful to walk through?
Kitty Kok (23:41):
Well, I base it in prayer.
I know I've got to do this.
Bathe it in prayer.
I know I've got to do this.
And I had a teacher the firstyear back after the war.
This was in that in-betweentime and I was in fifth grade
(24:02):
and I was bullied by her.
Piet Van Waarde (24:07):
She for some reason hated me.
Kitty Kok (24:09):
And then I, years later, I came to the realization
.
Did I ever forgive her?
Whenever I think about her, I'mpuzzled at how mean she was,
and why did I earn that kind oftreatment?
(24:33):
What did I do to her?
But I decided well, lord, pleasegive me the strength to forgive
her, to set myself free fromwhat she did to me, so that's
(24:53):
where I usually start and voiceit.
I forgive her that fifth gradeteacher yeah, I forgive her for
putting me down for and thenname the things that you forgive
(25:14):
them for and lift it up to the.
Lord and say may she turn itall for good, May she change
somehow.
Piet Van Waarde (25:23):
But yeah, so you acknowledge it, you name it
and then you let it go.
And you do that as often as youneed to do it.
Kitty Kok (25:33):
Yeah, exactly, but you have to acknowledge it and
you have to be honest inidentifying what you forgive the
person for what you forgive theperson for, because sometimes
it has to be the differentthings that they did wrong, or
(25:54):
sometimes you can just say okayfor the person he or she was.
I forgive them but acknowledgedon't smooth it over.
Piet Van Waarde (26:08):
Well, you've been a real example to me in
that you know when we've talkedand even growing up, where you
would, you know, talk to us kidsabout not stuffing your
emotions, talking things out,forgiving one another when
you've been wronged, and so youtook that really horrible thing
(26:34):
that happened to you, processedit and then passed on those
principles to your kids and webenefited from your example and
your teaching about that.
So thank you for faithfullyprocessing through.
You're welcome.
It was not easy to do.
All right, well, shifting thefocus a little bit.
So, now that you're at thisstage of your life, you know, I
(26:57):
think a lot of people kind ofcome to the latter years of
their life and and they gainsome perspective over the over
time.
And I'm just curious, as youlook back on the things that are
important to you now, what doyou look back and say, man, I'm
so glad I did this, this andthis, because that really added
(27:22):
to the quality of my life.
Kitty Kok (27:27):
Well, there were a few things I remember.
I think it all comes down todecisions you make, mm-hmm.
I know people, when they becomewidows all of a sudden, or guys
(27:58):
widowers, decide to changetheir life immediately.
I can't live without the personor whatever, and I decided very
(28:23):
consciously, don't make anyhasty decisions.
I need to know what it is liketo live without my husband, and
we had been together 54 years,not counting the years we knew
each other before that, and thenall of a sudden in one day he
(28:45):
left for sailing and never cameback.
That was an amazing shock and Iknew I had to live that out.
I got tremendous support fromthe family, but at some point
(29:05):
they need to go home and theyhave their own lives.
So I decided to stay where I was.
I did some travel to Colorado,especially during hurricane
seasons.
I didn't want to go throughthat again, saw the kids, but
(29:29):
basically continued living inour condominium.
And I did that for four years.
And then one time I wasstanding on my balcony we had
beautiful views of theintercoastal river and I thought
(29:58):
I have five children all livingin different stages.
Piet Van Waarde (30:02):
What am I doing here alone?
And I do remember we had afriendly family competition to
try and talk you into livingwith or close by any one of us.
Kitty Kok (30:15):
And you chose.
Piet Van Waarde (30:16):
Colorado.
Kitty Kok (30:17):
I did.
But what I did before that was,I went to every state where
they lived and checked outliving possibilities.
You know where would I live andwhat would my environment be
like, and the nice thing wasthey all wanted me to live close
(30:40):
to them, but I finally decidedto live with Elsa my only
daughter to live with Elsa, myonly daughter and ultimately
that was the best decisionbecause they were looking for a
(31:02):
home.
I was looking for a place tolive and we found a brand new
house with an unfinished walkoutbasement that I designed with
the help of an architect to makeinto an apartment for myself.
And it worked out perfectly.
Piet Van Waarde (31:27):
Yeah, we all agree that was really kind of a
divine intervention.
Kitty Kok (31:31):
God set that up.
It was a good, good choice.
Piet Van Waarde (31:36):
And as long as you keep coming to see us, we
can live with that reality.
Kitty Kok (31:39):
I can still travel.
Maybe that's why the Lordgives's your day going to look
like.
Well, I feel like doing nothingtoday.
(32:02):
I mean you have the freedom nowto do that and my driving has
gotten a little more limited, sothat is still something I miss.
Just get in the car and go, butyou have to adjust.
(32:25):
Yeah, so yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (32:29):
Don't complain about it.
Decisions, decisions, complainabout it.
Kitty Kok (32:32):
Decisions, decisions I love that.
Piet Van Waarde (32:35):
So now, when you look back, I know like when
you come to Austin, you have acouple of family members and you
have an elder at a church, youhave a world traveler.
(32:56):
I mean, you have very good,well-adjusted kids, except for
the oldest.
He's still a bit of a problemnow and again.
But I'm sure people ask youlike how did that happen?
What was the secret sauce ofcreating an environment at home
which produced such good kids?
(33:20):
And do you have an answer Likewhat do you typically tell?
Kitty Kok (33:23):
people about that.
Well, Dad and I did our best toraise them in ways that agreed
with our personal ideas on howto grow people, and I was very
(33:47):
intent on taking you to churchteaching you to pray.
I remember at a young age Iwould ask you to read the Bible
after dinner or to say theprayer after dinner, and if we
(34:10):
had company they would talkabout that for weeks.
That kid, he prayed such abeautiful prayer.
So you were molded really earlyon.
But I always say I did what Icould, their father did what he
(34:35):
could, but in the end I reallystrongly feel that God took over
and took over a few kidsbecause it was not all easy
going Perfect kids not at all.
Few kids, because it was notall easy going perfect kids not
at all.
They went their own way andthey got involved in all kinds
(34:58):
of stuff.
But I think God or I know Godsaid uh, uh, I need you here.
I need you there, I havethoughts and plans for you.
Piet Van Waarde (35:12):
Yeah, yes, yeah , I totally see that, and I
think that that's the beauty ofparenting because you know you
can do quite a bit to movepeople towards a direction, and,
whether it's by your ownexample or the things that you
teach, or the opportunities thatyou teach or the opportunities
that you extend, you set yourkids up and gave them a lot of
(35:39):
yeah guidance, direction,opportunity to discover some
things about the Lord and aboutthemselves.
And then, really, it is about arelease of like okay, okay, lord
, now that they're in your hands, and do do what you do, and he
certainly did and the communitywas important.
Kitty Kok (35:59):
You had a good community around you yeah, yeah.
Piet Van Waarde (36:04):
So, yeah, you did a good job.
So did dad, yeah, um, now Iwant to ask one last question.
You know, right now there's alot going on in the world that,
um, you know, on one hand youcould say, man, there's so many
good things, so manyopportunities, so many things to
(36:25):
be grateful for, uh.
But then there's also thingsthat you know become points of
concern.
And I'm just curious, from yourperspective, with your maturity
and wisdom, what are the thingsthat you look at the world and
you say I'm excited about that,and then where are the places
where you go?
Boy, I really find myself beingconcerned about that direction
(36:49):
or that tendency in the culture.
Kitty Kok (36:53):
I think it is keeping an eye on what is good, what's
happening that's good and what'shappening that's evil, and make
that distinction.
What saddens me is that thereis so much division in this
(37:21):
country, and that concerns meBecause I can see that that can
become very, very explosive Ifwe could bring people together
and say let's work together forthe good that's happening and
(37:42):
let's be honest, not because youdon't like the politics of that
person so you're going to hatewhatever that person does, but
be honest and look at it and saywhat's good about it and what's
bad about it.
And that should be from allsides.
(38:04):
Yeah right and unfortunatelythat's very hard.
We are very polarized in thiscountry and I still have hope
for better things and bettertimes and feel positive.
(38:26):
But I think we have to doeverything to keep things in
balance.
Piet Van Waarde (38:35):
You know, don't say that's all bad and black
and horrible, but be honest andtry to see the good things do
you have a practice yourself tokind of keep you even keeled,
because you know you turn on thenews or you listen to a
(38:58):
podcaster or an influencer andeverybody seems very exaggerated
in their response, you know,and so it's hard to kind of say
I'm going to like what you weresuggesting.
I want to be honest aboutwhat's happening.
Well, how do I even know what'shappening based on all the
(39:19):
reports out there?
What do I know to be true?
So is there something that youdo to kind of help provide the
perspective?
Kitty Kok (39:28):
Look at different sides.
You know, just not one side,but listen to the other side.
I think that's really importantto listen.
Can I follow that?
Can I see the good in that?
I am in it?
I sometimes mock myself a newsjunkie that I want to know
(39:52):
what's going on, but I'm alsokind of middle of the road.
I don't take sides very easily,so I try to listen to everybody,
whether it's upstairs in anargument between the kids or the
(40:17):
big news in the world.
What could be good about thisand what do I really feel is
totally wrong?
So, I think listening is animportant part of deciding where
you stand and what you canreally get excited about.
(40:38):
If you really know what's goingon and sometimes you just don't
.
Sometimes it's above my headyou guys figure it out, I don't
know.
Piet Van Waarde (40:49):
Well, and I think, too, that one of the
things I find myself thinking alot about these days is not just
and I do do what you suggestedlisten to both sides, try and
discern what feels right.
What seems right, lord, give mea perspective on this.
And then there's another partthat I think we want to be very
(41:10):
circumspect on how we talk aboutone another.
Kitty Kok (41:13):
Yes.
Piet Van Waarde (41:14):
So you know, occasionally I'll venture a
cultural or political opinion onsocial media and I probably
spend an hour thinking throughthat post like how could it be
misinterpreted?
How can I make sure that I'mbeing balanced and humble and
(41:35):
not pretending I know it all?
And Carol sometimes is like whyare you spending so much?
But I think it's so importantto work at saying things in a
way that is respectful for allsides, even if you don't agree
with another perspective, towork hard at communicating your
(41:58):
position well, but in thecontext of hey, I'm going to
regard your thoughts and yourperspective with equal value.
I may not agree with it, butI'm going to try and be as
respectful as possible and Ithink if you can listen and you
can communicate with care andcompassion, maybe that's how we
come together.
Yeah, at the end of the day.
Kitty Kok (42:19):
Yeah, I think it's good to share out of your own
experience, what I haveexperienced, instead of telling
the person.
This is the way this is yeah,right, but.
I experience prayer as veryhelpful.
(42:40):
I experience trust is soimportant If I can't trust the
person you know where are youleft.
Yeah, the person you know whereare you left.
Piet Van Waarde (42:50):
Yeah.
Kitty Kok (42:51):
So if I try to express my own experience with
something, nobody can fault mefor that Sure.
This is what I experienced.
Piet Van Waarde (43:05):
Yeah, yeah yeah .
Well, mom, you did a great job.
Once again, thank you forjoining me.
I appreciate your willingness.
Kitty Kok (43:13):
I loved every minute of it.
I hope the people out there dotoo.
Piet Van Waarde (43:20):
I'm sure they will, and so thank you for
joining us.
I'm so grateful for yourwillingness to join us and
engage in these conversationswith us.
You're always free to commentbelow and share as you feel like
there might be some people whowould use some of the
information we talked abouttoday and then see you next time
.
Thanks for joining us.
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